[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I developed the whole program of, you know, what to teach the campesinos. What about the co-ops, how they function, what are the rights and duties of members, and try to put something together in a fairly rudimentary way or something that people could understand.

[Assistant] Was this a government program, a Colombian government program?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was a Peace Corps idea?

[User] Peace Corps program that I developed and then gave to the cafetarios.

[Assistant] No, but I mean, the cooperatives. How did the cooperatives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was a Peace Corps idea?

[User] Peace Corps program that I developed and then gave to the cafetarios.

[Assistant] No, but I mean, the cooperatives. How did the cooperatives?

[User] The cooperatives was something that was developed by the Peace Corps to provide to Colombia. Because cooperatives were a major, I don't want to say major, but in certain industries like farming, credit, supermarkets and, you know, marketing co-ops and stuff like that were much more prevalent.

[Assistant] And in Colombia, they were already?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps program that I developed and then gave to the cafetarios.

[Assistant] No, but I mean, the cooperatives. How did the cooperatives?

[User] The cooperatives was something that was developed by the Peace Corps to provide to Colombia. Because cooperatives were a major, I don't want to say major, but in certain industries like farming, credit, supermarkets and, you know, marketing co-ops and stuff like that were much more prevalent.

[Assistant] And in Colombia, they were already?

[User] Yeah, they were. And even cabs were, you know, they were organized in that way. So it wasn't that that strange of an animal for people.

[Assistant] And the bosses were OK with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The cooperatives was something that was developed by the Peace Corps to provide to Colombia. Because cooperatives were a major, I don't want to say major, but in certain industries like farming, credit, supermarkets and, you know, marketing co-ops and stuff like that were much more prevalent.

[Assistant] And in Colombia, they were already?

[User] Yeah, they were. And even cabs were, you know, they were organized in that way. So it wasn't that that strange of an animal for people.

[Assistant] And the bosses were OK with that?

[User] Well, they find, you know, they like the idea of having somebody there. They thought I was going to bring in money from AID, which I didn't. But, you know, but then they just ignored me anyways.

[Assistant] But they didn't have trouble. Well, they were the members of the co-op. So yeah, they benefited from the co-op. It wasn't that you were organizing the campesinos against them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was mostly with volunteers and embassy people. And what happened was they hadn't fulfilled their orders to people. They had taken money from people but hadn't sent out their orders. So we were faced with a big problem because we had people that we owed things to. And anyways, we went to Bogota and I had some samples and stuff, and I mean, we try to. And we'd made some sales, cash sales, knew people and told people who really gave us money that we would honor what they did and we came back with a whole bunch of orders. One of the things, we had these plates that had designs on them and I put A, B, and C on the designs. And I came back to our Carlos and said, this is the plates we've gotten. And I need so many A's, so many B's, so many. And he looked at me and he said, you know, I'm an artist. I'm an artist. And I said, you do anything you want, OK? That was it. So everything was whatever you want. No. Forget about mass production of the designs. You know, everything was.

[Assistant] Original.

[User] Original. So we got the we got the place humming. After three months, the thing was really moving and shaped, and it lasted another 20, 25 years.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Yes, it was a major accomplishment. That's the best thing I did there. And then they, after three months, they promoted me, which was not necessarily. They promoted me to a volunteer leader.

[Assistant] Who, Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Original. So we got the we got the place humming. After three months, the thing was really moving and shaped, and it lasted another 20, 25 years.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Yes, it was a major accomplishment. That's the best thing I did there. And then they, after three months, they promoted me, which was not necessarily. They promoted me to a volunteer leader.

[Assistant] Who, Peace Corps?

[User] Peace Corps did. Yeah. And for the co-op program in Barranquilla, which is the northern part of Colombia and that had some mixed things. Then I started sort of managing people who were my peers, which was not so bad. But by that time, you're either working or you aren't working, and it wasn't like I was going to make them work. I mean, you know, they already were.

[Assistant] This was like a year and a half already.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's exactly what this guy did subsequent to that, he became a teacher and that's what he did.

[Assistant] But this free lifestyle suited you fine? Did it suit you fine?

[User] Yeah, I kind of liked the idea of being thrust somewhere and trying to figure out what to do and figure out a skill set. In fact, when I was in Manizales, I wrote a literacy book on co-ops, a little booklet, all about literacy. So I felt like I was really alive. You know, I could do different things, which was novel. I mean, here, I guess I'd never done anything like that. You know, I the only thing I'd done was in my father's meat factory growing up, making, you know, small little frankfurters, salami, pastrami, corned beef. So I mean, I knew how to pump corned beef. And so that was a different skill set.

[Assistant] Totally, totally.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] And did you get to travel to other countries as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I kind of liked the idea of being thrust somewhere and trying to figure out what to do and figure out a skill set. In fact, when I was in Manizales, I wrote a literacy book on co-ops, a little booklet, all about literacy. So I felt like I was really alive. You know, I could do different things, which was novel. I mean, here, I guess I'd never done anything like that. You know, I the only thing I'd done was in my father's meat factory growing up, making, you know, small little frankfurters, salami, pastrami, corned beef. So I mean, I knew how to pump corned beef. And so that was a different skill set.

[Assistant] Totally, totally.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] And did you get to travel to other countries as well?

[User] Yeah. After I did that, we went to, um. I went with two other guys, we flew to Peru, to Lima and then to Cusco to go to Machu Picchu. And we went to the get the train at Machu Picchu and then we were told we didn't have tickets. You had to buy them in Lima. And I think we tried to bribe the guy and that didn't work. So then we just left that and took the steamer across Lake Titicaca to Puno and up to La Paz. And which was really fascinating. Well, and scary because you just saw people living at fourteen thousand feet in sort of rock houses and stuff. I mean, if I saw poverty in Colombia, I didn't see it like that, you know. And La Paz was really very, very poor.

[Assistant] Bogota was not at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] And did you get to travel to other countries as well?

[User] Yeah. After I did that, we went to, um. I went with two other guys, we flew to Peru, to Lima and then to Cusco to go to Machu Picchu. And we went to the get the train at Machu Picchu and then we were told we didn't have tickets. You had to buy them in Lima. And I think we tried to bribe the guy and that didn't work. So then we just left that and took the steamer across Lake Titicaca to Puno and up to La Paz. And which was really fascinating. Well, and scary because you just saw people living at fourteen thousand feet in sort of rock houses and stuff. I mean, if I saw poverty in Colombia, I didn't see it like that, you know. And La Paz was really very, very poor.

[Assistant] Bogota was not at that point.

[User] No, Bogota was, you know. Yeah, I mean, it had buildings, apartments, and it was a fairly metropolitan area. On the edges of it, there was things and there's everybody selling lottery tickets, but it wasn't a shabby place. It was the central city and other places were fairly well developed. Pasto, on the other hand, was not.

[Assistant] How big was Pasto?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. After I did that, we went to, um. I went with two other guys, we flew to Peru, to Lima and then to Cusco to go to Machu Picchu. And we went to the get the train at Machu Picchu and then we were told we didn't have tickets. You had to buy them in Lima. And I think we tried to bribe the guy and that didn't work. So then we just left that and took the steamer across Lake Titicaca to Puno and up to La Paz. And which was really fascinating. Well, and scary because you just saw people living at fourteen thousand feet in sort of rock houses and stuff. I mean, if I saw poverty in Colombia, I didn't see it like that, you know. And La Paz was really very, very poor.

[Assistant] Bogota was not at that point.

[User] No, Bogota was, you know. Yeah, I mean, it had buildings, apartments, and it was a fairly metropolitan area. On the edges of it, there was things and there's everybody selling lottery tickets, but it wasn't a shabby place. It was the central city and other places were fairly well developed. Pasto, on the other hand, was not.

[Assistant] How big was Pasto?

[User] It was maybe 30,000 people or something, and it was cobblestone streets. And if you saw three cars in a day, that was a lot. And so that was.

[Assistant] And you went by plane, so people, I guess, did locals also fly from one place to another or was that really just for foreigners?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Bogota was, you know. Yeah, I mean, it had buildings, apartments, and it was a fairly metropolitan area. On the edges of it, there was things and there's everybody selling lottery tickets, but it wasn't a shabby place. It was the central city and other places were fairly well developed. Pasto, on the other hand, was not.

[Assistant] How big was Pasto?

[User] It was maybe 30,000 people or something, and it was cobblestone streets. And if you saw three cars in a day, that was a lot. And so that was.

[Assistant] And you went by plane, so people, I guess, did locals also fly from one place to another or was that really just for foreigners?

[User] Well, everybody went on a DC3 or DC. A lot of people had to fly there because the distances in Colombia, because of the mountain ranges, were pretty severe. I mean, if I were to go from Pasto to Bogota, it would probably take me three or four days.

[Assistant] Because of the mountains?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was maybe 30,000 people or something, and it was cobblestone streets. And if you saw three cars in a day, that was a lot. And so that was.

[Assistant] And you went by plane, so people, I guess, did locals also fly from one place to another or was that really just for foreigners?

[User] Well, everybody went on a DC3 or DC. A lot of people had to fly there because the distances in Colombia, because of the mountain ranges, were pretty severe. I mean, if I were to go from Pasto to Bogota, it would probably take me three or four days.

[Assistant] Because of the mountains?

[User] Because of the mountains and then even in Manizales, it would have been, yeah, it's a long trek.

[Assistant] So just going back to your co-op, how do you know that it existed for another 25 years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, everybody went on a DC3 or DC. A lot of people had to fly there because the distances in Colombia, because of the mountain ranges, were pretty severe. I mean, if I were to go from Pasto to Bogota, it would probably take me three or four days.

[Assistant] Because of the mountains?

[User] Because of the mountains and then even in Manizales, it would have been, yeah, it's a long trek.

[Assistant] So just going back to your co-op, how do you know that it existed for another 25 years?

[User] Because we, you know, I've been a member of the Friends of Colombia for God knows, since the beginning.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that, Friends of Colombia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because of the mountains and then even in Manizales, it would have been, yeah, it's a long trek.

[Assistant] So just going back to your co-op, how do you know that it existed for another 25 years?

[User] Because we, you know, I've been a member of the Friends of Colombia for God knows, since the beginning.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that, Friends of Colombia.

[User] All right. Well, let me just finish up. Because we had other volunteers who were in Colombia and we sort of, I heard at different Peace Corps meetings and subsequent that it was, people were still involved with it. And in a way I felt bad because my goal was to teach them how to use their bookkeeping system, how to market, and to do it themselves. And so, it lasted 20 years with a lot of other people and subsequent. When I went back there, I went back there about in 2000, about 40 years later, and some of the same guys were working, but they had their own co-op, so they had spread out. So they were in their own business.

[Assistant] Oh, so that's still a success. They closed that but did something else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we, you know, I've been a member of the Friends of Colombia for God knows, since the beginning.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that, Friends of Colombia.

[User] All right. Well, let me just finish up. Because we had other volunteers who were in Colombia and we sort of, I heard at different Peace Corps meetings and subsequent that it was, people were still involved with it. And in a way I felt bad because my goal was to teach them how to use their bookkeeping system, how to market, and to do it themselves. And so, it lasted 20 years with a lot of other people and subsequent. When I went back there, I went back there about in 2000, about 40 years later, and some of the same guys were working, but they had their own co-op, so they had spread out. So they were in their own business.

[Assistant] Oh, so that's still a success. They closed that but did something else.

[User] Yeah. Let me digress for one second, because Steve and I went back and we looked up people. Now, Pasto, now they had paved over the cobblestone streets. They built some of the hotels. And I was heartbroken. You know, the town I knew, that was just it was different. It was developed. God, I hated that and they even had a like a McDonald's, 24 hour McDonald's in the square, that I couldn't even believe it. And we looked up one of the guys that made the Don Quixote bookends and he invited us over to his son's house, where he was living. So we go to this almost townhouse section that didn't exist in Pasto, and we walk in there and to the left is his son, his 10 year old kid working on a computer. I meet his son and his son is selling these products that we made, but now making them in shapes of birds and not play, you know? And he's selling them in Europe and France and stuff. And it was just.

[Assistant] 40 years, 40 years later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I've been active. I could not be active. Bob pulled me into the group, I guess, and so I've been on it. I don't know how many years already, 40 years already. So and we've been, you know, we've been giving some money to certain projects and doing that over time and then having a newsletter and stuff like that. And it's, I think it's, we were almost getting running out of steam because we're all getting older.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And a wonderful thing has happened. They had new groups of volunteers going to Colombia the last three or four years, and now they've graduated, and now we've incorporated two or three of those people.

[Assistant] Oh, great.

[User] In our thing. And I was head of, I guess, one thing, the internet thing. Had my name and numbers all over there and I had Michael, I gave it all to Michael and said, you got to put your name and stuff. In other words.

[Assistant] You passed the torch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And a wonderful thing has happened. They had new groups of volunteers going to Colombia the last three or four years, and now they've graduated, and now we've incorporated two or three of those people.

[Assistant] Oh, great.

[User] In our thing. And I was head of, I guess, one thing, the internet thing. Had my name and numbers all over there and I had Michael, I gave it all to Michael and said, you got to put your name and stuff. In other words.

[Assistant] You passed the torch.

[User] I passed the torch. So I think it's fantastic. We're going to, we've got three or four people involved with it.

[Assistant] Are there volunteers in Colombia now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In our thing. And I was head of, I guess, one thing, the internet thing. Had my name and numbers all over there and I had Michael, I gave it all to Michael and said, you got to put your name and stuff. In other words.

[Assistant] You passed the torch.

[User] I passed the torch. So I think it's fantastic. We're going to, we've got three or four people involved with it.

[Assistant] Are there volunteers in Colombia now?

[User] Yeah, they are volunteers. And I think we're making some kind of a headway with the director down there to do some kind of joint. We gave them some money. She wanted money for a conference, so we gave her some money and we've had some project we've been funding for the last 40 years. And so we continue that.

[Assistant] And you mentioned you've been back once or twice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I passed the torch. So I think it's fantastic. We're going to, we've got three or four people involved with it.

[Assistant] Are there volunteers in Colombia now?

[User] Yeah, they are volunteers. And I think we're making some kind of a headway with the director down there to do some kind of joint. We gave them some money. She wanted money for a conference, so we gave her some money and we've had some project we've been funding for the last 40 years. And so we continue that.

[Assistant] And you mentioned you've been back once or twice.

[User] Twice. I was back once, I think, in 1999, and I went back to see what was happening in Manizales and in Pasto. But the interesting thing was I flew into Cartagena and I had to change planes and we were in the waiting room and I didn't see anybody in Colombia for 40 years. And I get in this waiting room and everybody's got jeans on and Michael Jordan's shirts and hats, and I don't know where the hell I am, and I don't know who's a Colombian, who's an American. You know, it doesn't make sense to me, you know, I mean, it just totally, totally different thing. And I see this one woman, I swear she, and I didn't know how to use the phone there because it was a different setup. And I'm sure she was an American. And of course, I went up to her and I, in by this time my broken Spanish, because I only time I speak Spanish is somebody parking my car or whatever anyways. And she was a Colombian, you know, which is unbelievable how.

[Assistant] Well, there are lots of Colombians who come to the United States, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, I think. I mean, you know, when I was down there, you thought, especially in the rural places that you know, just you don't know when they haven't developed. Let me just digress for one second. The most significant, one of the most significant places I was in, it was in southern Colombia. They were making baskets. Guy from Sears Roebuck was, now retired, was trying to help the Colombian industry and selling baskets to maybe the States. And he found them making baskets in Pasto and he said, they're not making them quite right and he designed it. And so he had this one guy, some guy in the marketplace who didn't speak Spanish, he spoke, uh, Quechua. So we had to have a Colombian speaking Quechua. I'm translating from Spanish to English to this guy.

Make a long story short, after two weeks we go visit this guy's home and he made the baskets. And then we try to tell him, if you make a lot more. You know, I think he wanted $5 for the two baskets or something. And then we said, if you make 10 baskets, we can pay you less per basket, but you'll make a lot more money. And the guy said, look at the tree and how many leaves are in the tree, how many you could be making. And this guy who lives in a shack, you know, the mud hut, you know, thatched roof and smoke coming out of the house. And he shook his head. And he basically said, if you want more, if you want more, it'll cost you more, more and more. I mean, if you wanted, if it was $2.50 for one, if you want, if you wanted to make two, it would cost you $3. It was going in the wrong direction.

[Assistant] What was his logic to that?

[User] His logic was to that was very, he says, if I do that, I have less time for my family.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And I would just sort of blown out, you know, I mean, because, you know.

[Assistant] He had his priorities.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His logic was to that was very, he says, if I do that, I have less time for my family.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And I would just sort of blown out, you know, I mean, because, you know.

[Assistant] He had his priorities.

[User] He has priorities, this guy is in the bush. And so anyways, sorry to digress there.

[Assistant] Well, it's a good a little story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I would just sort of blown out, you know, I mean, because, you know.

[Assistant] He had his priorities.

[User] He has priorities, this guy is in the bush. And so anyways, sorry to digress there.

[Assistant] Well, it's a good a little story.

[User] And your question was?

[Assistant] What was Peace Corps' role in this development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He has priorities, this guy is in the bush. And so anyways, sorry to digress there.

[Assistant] Well, it's a good a little story.

[User] And your question was?

[Assistant] What was Peace Corps' role in this development?

[User] Well, it wasn't the drug problem. I mean, when we were there, there was no drugs in '65. I think some of the volunteers, you know, some projects were better than others. And by and large, you know there was a productive country. I mean, they had a good agriculture. They made coffee. It was a market for the coffee and other things. And there was a governmental system that seemed to work. I mean, it flipped from one party to the other party. It got a little crazier in the last 20 years.

[Assistant] With the drugs, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And your question was?

[Assistant] What was Peace Corps' role in this development?

[User] Well, it wasn't the drug problem. I mean, when we were there, there was no drugs in '65. I think some of the volunteers, you know, some projects were better than others. And by and large, you know there was a productive country. I mean, they had a good agriculture. They made coffee. It was a market for the coffee and other things. And there was a governmental system that seemed to work. I mean, it flipped from one party to the other party. It got a little crazier in the last 20 years.

[Assistant] With the drugs, yeah.

[User] And the drugs and stuff like that. But there was a good market. People were, if you gave people an opportunity they took it. And I saw that everywhere, even on the coast or anywhere. One of the volunteers now is in the microloan program and she's been doing it. And still doing it. So in some ways, it was an ideal environment. And a lot of Colombians come to the States and fit right in, you know, they're basically hard working, family oriented, and they're good businessmen. I mean, at all levels. So I was very impressed. I mean, when you get down there in the sixties, you don't, you know, you can't believe what you're seeing. When I went down there in 2000, you know. When I was down there, you'd see people in black all the time because somebody had died. And it was. And the same poverty I didn't see at all. I mean, you'd have to, not that it didn't exist, but there was significant change. And what role did Peace Corps play? I think we modeled things for a lot of people.

[Assistant] But they were ready to take it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it wasn't the drug problem. I mean, when we were there, there was no drugs in '65. I think some of the volunteers, you know, some projects were better than others. And by and large, you know there was a productive country. I mean, they had a good agriculture. They made coffee. It was a market for the coffee and other things. And there was a governmental system that seemed to work. I mean, it flipped from one party to the other party. It got a little crazier in the last 20 years.

[Assistant] With the drugs, yeah.

[User] And the drugs and stuff like that. But there was a good market. People were, if you gave people an opportunity they took it. And I saw that everywhere, even on the coast or anywhere. One of the volunteers now is in the microloan program and she's been doing it. And still doing it. So in some ways, it was an ideal environment. And a lot of Colombians come to the States and fit right in, you know, they're basically hard working, family oriented, and they're good businessmen. I mean, at all levels. So I was very impressed. I mean, when you get down there in the sixties, you don't, you know, you can't believe what you're seeing. When I went down there in 2000, you know. When I was down there, you'd see people in black all the time because somebody had died. And it was. And the same poverty I didn't see at all. I mean, you'd have to, not that it didn't exist, but there was significant change. And what role did Peace Corps play? I think we modeled things for a lot of people.

[Assistant] But they were ready to take it.

[User] They were ready, I mean, you know, and some of us did more than others. But I don't, I don't want to say we made development work in Colombia. I think we learned a lot more.

[Assistant] That was my next question. So what did Peace Corps do for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were ready, I mean, you know, and some of us did more than others. But I don't, I don't want to say we made development work in Colombia. I think we learned a lot more.

[Assistant] That was my next question. So what did Peace Corps do for you?

[User] Oh, well, gave me a lease on life because I came back and I was pretty confident that I could do different things and so I just was determined to see what I could do. I wanted to go back overseas and it wasn't a good time because it was 1965. The war was raging and so I got into graduate school. And I feel guilty about that, because other people got drafted right away. One of the guys that we worked with, another volunteer, died within three months of coming home. His name is on the wall. So I, you know, I ended up getting a master's degree, then another master's degree, then a PhD. Taught at GW and got burnt out teaching and not making enough money. It sounds like bad and sour grapes, but this vision of being, you know, a professor and, you know, at a not quite Ivy League place, but GW was more of a factory. It was a, I don't know, it wasn't a good fit. I had a different background to the people I taught with in the department.

[Assistant] You'd been overseas, you're worldly.

[User] Yeah. And none of them were, they were in a very traditional mold. I had new skills and program evaluation and research methods. And it was like oil and water. And I just didn't.

[Assistant] But you went on to do lots of other things. So that's fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And none of them were, they were in a very traditional mold. I had new skills and program evaluation and research methods. And it was like oil and water. And I just didn't.

[Assistant] But you went on to do lots of other things. So that's fine.

[User] Yeah, I had a great. I did what I wanted to do and there were costs involved. I mean, I joined the government and I had my nose up, you know, in the air. And if I rose up and I rose down, you know, and I wasn't afraid to change. So it wasn't like I had this stellar career in the government. Ultimately, I got burnt out when they told me not to do anything. I mean, I couldn't take that. I could not take sitting in a, I was a 15 towards the end and had a nice sized office. So I was on the road to becoming a senior executive. And I could not take not doing anything and just sitting and pushing buttons. And so I went back, went to school, got a clinical degree, and I was very happy becoming a psychotherapist and I was a really good one.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] So I'm not sorry what I did.

[Assistant] So you can think of the psychologists who deselected people, way back when.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I had a great. I did what I wanted to do and there were costs involved. I mean, I joined the government and I had my nose up, you know, in the air. And if I rose up and I rose down, you know, and I wasn't afraid to change. So it wasn't like I had this stellar career in the government. Ultimately, I got burnt out when they told me not to do anything. I mean, I couldn't take that. I could not take sitting in a, I was a 15 towards the end and had a nice sized office. So I was on the road to becoming a senior executive. And I could not take not doing anything and just sitting and pushing buttons. And so I went back, went to school, got a clinical degree, and I was very happy becoming a psychotherapist and I was a really good one.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] So I'm not sorry what I did.

[Assistant] So you can think of the psychologists who deselected people, way back when.

[User] Well, but the trouble was they didn't know who was going to make it and who didn't, you know. They had, what they were using, what they thought was some measures. And because some of the people that did, they took people at the margins who were really looked a little bizarre. That's about it. I'm not sure they took out wrong people.

[Assistant] So we had a guy who we all disliked because we didn't like the whole process. And then years later, I was at a professional conference and there he was up on the stage. I can't even remember what he was talking about, but a perfectly nice guy. But, you know, it was a different role. I was in a different role.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I'm not sorry what I did.

[Assistant] So you can think of the psychologists who deselected people, way back when.

[User] Well, but the trouble was they didn't know who was going to make it and who didn't, you know. They had, what they were using, what they thought was some measures. And because some of the people that did, they took people at the margins who were really looked a little bizarre. That's about it. I'm not sure they took out wrong people.

[Assistant] So we had a guy who we all disliked because we didn't like the whole process. And then years later, I was at a professional conference and there he was up on the stage. I can't even remember what he was talking about, but a perfectly nice guy. But, you know, it was a different role. I was in a different role.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But yeah, it was a difficult thing at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, but the trouble was they didn't know who was going to make it and who didn't, you know. They had, what they were using, what they thought was some measures. And because some of the people that did, they took people at the margins who were really looked a little bizarre. That's about it. I'm not sure they took out wrong people.

[Assistant] So we had a guy who we all disliked because we didn't like the whole process. And then years later, I was at a professional conference and there he was up on the stage. I can't even remember what he was talking about, but a perfectly nice guy. But, you know, it was a different role. I was in a different role.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But yeah, it was a difficult thing at that point.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Nobody liked deselection.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But yeah, it was a difficult thing at that point.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Nobody liked deselection.

[User] Oh yeah, it was crazy.

[Assistant] The term itself was not such a great term.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Nobody liked deselection.

[User] Oh yeah, it was crazy.

[Assistant] The term itself was not such a great term.

[User] It was, like I said, it was frightening. Frightening because, you know, here you are. You're supposed to be on a track somewhere, and you can't come back. You can't come home.

[Assistant] That's true. Right. So anything else you want to tell me or put it down for posterity about Colombia, about the Peace Corps, about your reflections looking back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, it was crazy.

[Assistant] The term itself was not such a great term.

[User] It was, like I said, it was frightening. Frightening because, you know, here you are. You're supposed to be on a track somewhere, and you can't come back. You can't come home.

[Assistant] That's true. Right. So anything else you want to tell me or put it down for posterity about Colombia, about the Peace Corps, about your reflections looking back?

[User] Let me see. I like to think that it's not that different now than it was. I meet some of the people. And I think teaching is nice because it's that, but I think the community development stuff is different and that requires a different skill set. And like they said, you take a lot more yourself in terms of your own development than you give. And it's hard to know how much. Well, I was. Yeah. I think I was in Thailand with somebody and mentioned I was in the Peace Corps. And he said, oh yes, you know, they knew about it and he said some friend of his or his father really benefited from it. So. But, you know, we're sort of a small thing, but over time.

[Assistant] It adds up. How many volunteers have been in Colombia, do you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, like I said, it was frightening. Frightening because, you know, here you are. You're supposed to be on a track somewhere, and you can't come back. You can't come home.

[Assistant] That's true. Right. So anything else you want to tell me or put it down for posterity about Colombia, about the Peace Corps, about your reflections looking back?

[User] Let me see. I like to think that it's not that different now than it was. I meet some of the people. And I think teaching is nice because it's that, but I think the community development stuff is different and that requires a different skill set. And like they said, you take a lot more yourself in terms of your own development than you give. And it's hard to know how much. Well, I was. Yeah. I think I was in Thailand with somebody and mentioned I was in the Peace Corps. And he said, oh yes, you know, they knew about it and he said some friend of his or his father really benefited from it. So. But, you know, we're sort of a small thing, but over time.

[Assistant] It adds up. How many volunteers have been in Colombia, do you know?

[User] Um, probably close to 4,000, I think over time, because we had the biggest program. Maybe more than that.

[Assistant] Somalia total had four hundred, over all the years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m pleased to be here with you, and I’m glad you could find it. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yes. Not a problem at all there.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Not a problem.

[User] My husband’s map. He’s the mapmaker.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Okay. It was such a pretty drive. It really was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Not a problem.

[User] My husband’s map. He’s the mapmaker.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Okay. It was such a pretty drive. It really was.

[User] Good. Well, he’s out in the vineyard and I’m sure he will come in with the dogs at some inopportune moment. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, that’s all right. I like dogs, so that’s good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My husband’s map. He’s the mapmaker.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Okay. It was such a pretty drive. It really was.

[User] Good. Well, he’s out in the vineyard and I’m sure he will come in with the dogs at some inopportune moment. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, that’s all right. I like dogs, so that’s good.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] We’ll just add them in. Let them have their say.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good. Well, he’s out in the vineyard and I’m sure he will come in with the dogs at some inopportune moment. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, that’s all right. I like dogs, so that’s good.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] We’ll just add them in. Let them have their say.

[User] Yes. Well, they will.

[Assistant] [Laughter] Good.\n\n Well, to begin with, going back to and thinking about maybe what led to your interest in science, chemistry, how did you move into that area in your early studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Because somewhere in there I think you have a question about when did you first—did you experience any problems because you were a woman.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Until that point, I had had nothing but good advice, goodwill, mentorship. At Reed College there were a couple of women [faculty] in the chemistry department. I had a woman math professor when I was a freshman. It was really inspiring for me, because I had limited exposure to women in scientific roles. So they were an inspiring group of women.

[Assistant] That’s good.

[User] I went to UCSD, and in many ways I really enjoyed it, especially the first two years, because I was with a cohort of my fellow graduate students. They put us in offices in a new building, and we were all together isolated from everything else, so we really had a lot of fun supporting each other and learning together, and that was good. The first couple of years were fine, or about the first year or so was fine.\n\n Then in the second year you really have to settle on what your research project is going to be. They had a program there we called rotation, which was you got to choose different professors to work with for a quarter. They were on the quarter system. So I was rotating through the people that I was most interested in, and I was in Professor Jim [James R.] Arnold’s lab. I was working on kind of a heroic project. I mean, it was a brute-force kind of project. We were trying to isolate from a dissolved—oh, we were trying to find out if there were other contaminants in lead bricks, because Professor Arnold’s lab focused on very low-level radiation, and they wanted to minimize any source of radiation, so they wanted to know if there were any other radioactive materials in the lead bricks that were used for shielding. It sounds kind of weird. So I dissolved a whole lead brick with sulphuric acid. This took quite a long time.

[Assistant] Yes. I imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So Margaret Burbidge, famous astronomer, was on the staff there at the time. So there were a couple of other faculty members, I think, in the chemistry department. The chemistry department had at that time a much more diverse faculty than a lot of chemistry departments to this day. So on that score, I have to say they were doing well.

[Assistant] That’s good. Were there a number of women students?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. There were some really interesting women students. I shared an office with one at Scripps. Unfortunately, I don’t know what happened to her, Aviva Brecher. She was married to another graduate student. I think she pretty much dropped out of science, but she was an interesting gal and very [smart]—I sorry if she did. I’ve just lost track of her. She may be in science, for all I know, maybe just doing something different. I’m not doing much science now anyway, so. [Laughter]\n\n Tanya Atwater, very famous geochemist, was a student when I was there. So, yes, it was a good place to be.

[Assistant] That’s good.\n\n Okay. Well, I think we’ve covered most of the questions I had about what we’ve already discussed.

[User] Early life, yes.

[Assistant] So you move now on to the University of Arizona.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. There were some really interesting women students. I shared an office with one at Scripps. Unfortunately, I don’t know what happened to her, Aviva Brecher. She was married to another graduate student. I think she pretty much dropped out of science, but she was an interesting gal and very [smart]—I sorry if she did. I’ve just lost track of her. She may be in science, for all I know, maybe just doing something different. I’m not doing much science now anyway, so. [Laughter]\n\n Tanya Atwater, very famous geochemist, was a student when I was there. So, yes, it was a good place to be.

[Assistant] That’s good.\n\n Okay. Well, I think we’ve covered most of the questions I had about what we’ve already discussed.

[User] Early life, yes.

[Assistant] So you move now on to the University of Arizona.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Met your husband.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Early life, yes.

[Assistant] So you move now on to the University of Arizona.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Met your husband.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Which, that’s interesting. You said he was a Carmelite friar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Met your husband.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Which, that’s interesting. You said he was a Carmelite friar.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you kind of drew him away from that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Which, that’s interesting. You said he was a Carmelite friar.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you kind of drew him away from that.

[User] I did. He had to leave the priesthood. It was a big decision.

[Assistant] Well, it looks like it’s worked out well for you both.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. He had to leave the priesthood. It was a big decision.

[Assistant] Well, it looks like it’s worked out well for you both.

[User] Twenty-seven years.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] At that point, you mentioned that you were looking for a chemistry lab and setting that up. Were you also teaching classes then at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty-seven years.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] At that point, you mentioned that you were looking for a chemistry lab and setting that up. Were you also teaching classes then at that point?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What were you teaching and what was—I guess still going a little bit with the theme of women—the reaction of some of the students in the department or the department in general, and then specifically what you were teaching some of the projects you were involved in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] —thinking directly on the mission.

[User] Right. Right.\n\n The other thing, my time there ended kind of sadly because the—what was he called—associate administrator, deputy administrator, I don’t know, but the person who was the head of all the science, this other famous geologist—I’m having a hard time with my names. This is not unusual. This has been a lifelong problem, but it’s gotten much worse in my senior years.\n\n In any case, this was the person who was—Tim [Thomas] Mutch. He went on this climbing expedition and fell to his death, and he never came back. Well, I had an appointment [scheduled] with him for the day after he got back for that [was to get back]. So that was kind of a sad ending to the whole time I was there, which had been very educational. I learned a lot from it, but, on the whole, if I hadn’t been so young and enthusiastic, I would have been really depressed. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I understand that.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I’d like to pause briefly here and change out the tape.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right.\n\n The other thing, my time there ended kind of sadly because the—what was he called—associate administrator, deputy administrator, I don’t know, but the person who was the head of all the science, this other famous geologist—I’m having a hard time with my names. This is not unusual. This has been a lifelong problem, but it’s gotten much worse in my senior years.\n\n In any case, this was the person who was—Tim [Thomas] Mutch. He went on this climbing expedition and fell to his death, and he never came back. Well, I had an appointment [scheduled] with him for the day after he got back for that [was to get back]. So that was kind of a sad ending to the whole time I was there, which had been very educational. I learned a lot from it, but, on the whole, if I hadn’t been so young and enthusiastic, I would have been really depressed. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I understand that.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I’d like to pause briefly here and change out the tape.

[User] Good. Good idea. [Recording Stopped]

[Assistant] We were just talking about your time during this one year up at NASA Headquarters, working specifically on the Halley mission, and you had mentioned at one point that it was a lesson in adaptive thinking for you. If you might expand on that and how that changed your process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I’d like to pause briefly here and change out the tape.

[User] Good. Good idea. [Recording Stopped]

[Assistant] We were just talking about your time during this one year up at NASA Headquarters, working specifically on the Halley mission, and you had mentioned at one point that it was a lesson in adaptive thinking for you. If you might expand on that and how that changed your process.

[User] Well, I was going beyond my normal, my narrow track of scientific specialization, and doing various things like writing the newsletter and learning about the budgets and things like that. All of that was pretty new to me. When I went back to the University of Arizona then in December, I guess it was, I returned and found that the person who had been chairing the department had stepped down as chair. They were looking for a new department head, and the factions were still like in evidence.

[Assistant] If I could interrupt briefly, what had caused the factions? Was it the difference in thinking about how the department should function or was it more of a scientific difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Presentations, you know, it’s the meetings, it’s the usual kind of activities. So that actually worked out pretty well, especially when I was doing a lot of the—when a lot of the high-level space policy stuff was being done on weekends. So it made it possible to do, although it’s a heck of a long trip from Washington, D.C., to Washington state.

[Assistant] That is a very long trip.

[User] That was pretty tough. I don’t really have much more to say about that, unless you want to follow up in some specific direction.

[Assistant] Not specifically. I was just curious about the contrast between the two. It’s different areas, but, as you said, you need both to really have—well, you did move on from Washington to become chancellor at UCI.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that opportunity come about for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a very memorable—it was so memorable. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Even though you had big challenges for a while, as you said, there was a lot of positive that did come out.

[User] Oh, yes. We did a lot of things that I liked there. So, you know, it wasn’t all bad. But if you read the newspapers, you would think it was all bad.

[Assistant] Well, you decided it was time for a new career.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the first opportunity you moved on to then? Was that when you came here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you want to stop and let me go find—

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] How are we doing?

[Assistant] We’re good.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, you’ve mentioned some of the activities that you’ve gotten involved with since retiring from at least the academic world, but I did want to talk a little bit about The Planetary Society and how you became involved with that and then what some of the major projects were that you worked on while you were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is wonderful, and Neil is absolutely astounding. I am so glad that we talked him into joining our board at a time when he wasn’t quite the celebrity that he has become. I mean, he was a celebrity, and he’s much sought after. He really got into The Planetary Society. I remember when we had lunch. I think Bruce and I—I can’t remember if Lou was there. I think there were two or three of us and Neil, and Neil says well, I’m not sure—something like this. This isn’t a quote, not as much of a quote as some of the things I’ve said. “Why would I want to be on this when I don’t agree with your goals on manned exploration of space?”\n\n Lou says, well—I think it was Lou or maybe it was Bruce says, “Well, we think that debate is worth having within The Planetary Society.”\n\n So I think Neil understood that we didn’t have a single view. We used to have more of a single view when Carl was the guiding light, and we pretty much were focused around Carl. But Carl had this very expansive philosophy. So instead of having one Carl Sagan, now we have a lot of people that are very creative, and I think having Neil there is really wonderful.

[Assistant] That’s good.

[User] So it’s a good, good group of folks.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Certainly a lot of interesting projects, as you said, have come out of it.

[User] Yes. I know. It’s kind of amazing to me. I think they will just continue and become even more interesting. That was one of the things I felt happiest about at the Society, moving in that direction.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I just have a few general questions, more looking back over your career actually—or, no, sorry, I take that back. I do have one other—am I correct that now you’re working with Seagate Technology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it’s a good, good group of folks.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Certainly a lot of interesting projects, as you said, have come out of it.

[User] Yes. I know. It’s kind of amazing to me. I think they will just continue and become even more interesting. That was one of the things I felt happiest about at the Society, moving in that direction.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I just have a few general questions, more looking back over your career actually—or, no, sorry, I take that back. I do have one other—am I correct that now you’re working with Seagate Technology?

[User] Seagate Technology was a public company until exactly a year ago, went private. I was on the public board, and the public board was dispersed, dismissed, and thanked, which is typical. That’s normal. So I was with them for about six, seven years, I guess.

[Assistant] What was that focus on for that company?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —for these kind of women. We had an on-site physician. We had twenty-four-hour [services]—they could eat three meals a day because we served four meals a day in the twenty-four-hour clock.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] All of those kinds of things. I thought, I understand a lot of the concern about not paying your workers in foreign countries what looks like less than anybody could possibly live on in the United States. Well, the United States is the worldwide consumer of everything. We live to excess.\n\n But then what you don’t realize is that we provided dormitories so they had basically all their basic living plus their health provided. So the money that they earned they could keep or they could send home. Most of them sent it home.\n\n So anyway, that was partly the good side of the corporate America that I saw there, which was nice. Then I saw how wonderful cutthroat competitive corporate America, which is also kind of interesting.

[Assistant] It is that. That’s a good word to describe it. Well, you certainly saw several different aspects. You’ve seen the academic side, the government side, and the corporate side.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Looking back over all of these experiences, what would you consider your biggest challenge and then also your most significant accomplishment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of those kinds of things. I thought, I understand a lot of the concern about not paying your workers in foreign countries what looks like less than anybody could possibly live on in the United States. Well, the United States is the worldwide consumer of everything. We live to excess.\n\n But then what you don’t realize is that we provided dormitories so they had basically all their basic living plus their health provided. So the money that they earned they could keep or they could send home. Most of them sent it home.\n\n So anyway, that was partly the good side of the corporate America that I saw there, which was nice. Then I saw how wonderful cutthroat competitive corporate America, which is also kind of interesting.

[Assistant] It is that. That’s a good word to describe it. Well, you certainly saw several different aspects. You’ve seen the academic side, the government side, and the corporate side.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Looking back over all of these experiences, what would you consider your biggest challenge and then also your most significant accomplishment.

[User] Oh, my gosh. Am I interviewing for a job here?

[Assistant] No, no. No, no. It’s just something we like to ask everybody, just kind of a—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] OK. Well, tell us what you were doing a year before you joined the Peace Corps.

[User] So I joined the Peace Corps originally in March 2010. One year before that, I was working in Kerry, North Carolina, at Immediate Communications, which is a company that works with proxy materials and delivers voting materials for companies when it comes to their annual meetings and delivering of prospectuses, annual reports. In an office setting on a computer all day. Having gotten my application in and waiting, waiting to hear from Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Very good. Well, let's go back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and your family background.

[User] Sure. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Marietta, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and lived there for the first five years of my life. Around in '91, we moved, my mom and my dad and I moved to Kerry, North Carolina, at that point, along with newly acquired little brother David. And from there, I grew up in North Carolina. I went to elementary school, middle school, high school in Kerry and then from there went on to Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, where I received my Bachelor of Science in sociology with a concentration in social inequalities. So grew up in suburbia and playing lots of sports with a close-knit group of friends right on my street.

[Assistant] Very good. So you have one brother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I joined the Peace Corps originally in March 2010. One year before that, I was working in Kerry, North Carolina, at Immediate Communications, which is a company that works with proxy materials and delivers voting materials for companies when it comes to their annual meetings and delivering of prospectuses, annual reports. In an office setting on a computer all day. Having gotten my application in and waiting, waiting to hear from Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Very good. Well, let's go back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and your family background.

[User] Sure. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Marietta, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and lived there for the first five years of my life. Around in '91, we moved, my mom and my dad and I moved to Kerry, North Carolina, at that point, along with newly acquired little brother David. And from there, I grew up in North Carolina. I went to elementary school, middle school, high school in Kerry and then from there went on to Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, where I received my Bachelor of Science in sociology with a concentration in social inequalities. So grew up in suburbia and playing lots of sports with a close-knit group of friends right on my street.

[Assistant] Very good. So you have one brother?

[User] Correct. Just one sibling. One. And he's younger. And he's currently now in Asheville.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Your parents. Did they both work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Marietta, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and lived there for the first five years of my life. Around in '91, we moved, my mom and my dad and I moved to Kerry, North Carolina, at that point, along with newly acquired little brother David. And from there, I grew up in North Carolina. I went to elementary school, middle school, high school in Kerry and then from there went on to Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, where I received my Bachelor of Science in sociology with a concentration in social inequalities. So grew up in suburbia and playing lots of sports with a close-knit group of friends right on my street.

[Assistant] Very good. So you have one brother?

[User] Correct. Just one sibling. One. And he's younger. And he's currently now in Asheville.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Your parents. Did they both work?

[User] Yes, they both worked the majority of their lives. My mom was a teacher, itinerant teacher, and her last job was in the Wake County Public School system. She's now retired. My dad has also retired, and his last job was as a technical editor for SAS.

[Assistant] I see. Did they have any international travel experience or interests?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. Just one sibling. One. And he's younger. And he's currently now in Asheville.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Your parents. Did they both work?

[User] Yes, they both worked the majority of their lives. My mom was a teacher, itinerant teacher, and her last job was in the Wake County Public School system. She's now retired. My dad has also retired, and his last job was as a technical editor for SAS.

[Assistant] I see. Did they have any international travel experience or interests?

[User] Yes, they've both, um. They've both had some travels around the world. My dad's been to Haiti on some mission trips. He's been to Finland for work. He served as an Army photographer back in the, I think, late sixties and was in Thailand for 18 months. So he's been around a little bit. As well as my mom, I think, has been to Europe for more of a vacation type activities as well as she did the Experiment in International Living back in the late sixties as well, which is a world learning program. And she was in Holland, I think, at that point.

[Assistant] Very good. When you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they both worked the majority of their lives. My mom was a teacher, itinerant teacher, and her last job was in the Wake County Public School system. She's now retired. My dad has also retired, and his last job was as a technical editor for SAS.

[Assistant] I see. Did they have any international travel experience or interests?

[User] Yes, they've both, um. They've both had some travels around the world. My dad's been to Haiti on some mission trips. He's been to Finland for work. He served as an Army photographer back in the, I think, late sixties and was in Thailand for 18 months. So he's been around a little bit. As well as my mom, I think, has been to Europe for more of a vacation type activities as well as she did the Experiment in International Living back in the late sixties as well, which is a world learning program. And she was in Holland, I think, at that point.

[Assistant] Very good. When you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?

[User] In high school, I studied Latin and am embarrassed to say now that I little very remember, I remember very little from that, from those four years.

[Assistant] And in college, any language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they've both, um. They've both had some travels around the world. My dad's been to Haiti on some mission trips. He's been to Finland for work. He served as an Army photographer back in the, I think, late sixties and was in Thailand for 18 months. So he's been around a little bit. As well as my mom, I think, has been to Europe for more of a vacation type activities as well as she did the Experiment in International Living back in the late sixties as well, which is a world learning program. And she was in Holland, I think, at that point.

[Assistant] Very good. When you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?

[User] In high school, I studied Latin and am embarrassed to say now that I little very remember, I remember very little from that, from those four years.

[Assistant] And in college, any language?

[User] In college I did not study language, no.

[Assistant] OK. And were you doing any volunteer work, either in high school or college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In high school, I studied Latin and am embarrassed to say now that I little very remember, I remember very little from that, from those four years.

[Assistant] And in college, any language?

[User] In college I did not study language, no.

[Assistant] OK. And were you doing any volunteer work, either in high school or college?

[User] In high school, I did a little bit here and there, mostly sports and extracurricular honor society type activities took up most of my time. Throughout the summers of high school and undergrad, I went on the Appalachian Service Project, which is a mission trip that goes to the Appalachian Mountains during the summer and works on the homes with lower income families and families in need. That was a significant part of my summers the first decade of the century. And in college or at App State during my time there, I feel like I got more and more involved in the community as a, uh, working with the local food bank was one thing. There was another group called People Fighting Poverty, which was an on-campus group that worked to address homelessness through different initiatives as well as I was a logistics coordinator for a blood drive, which was a volunteer activity as well. And that actually ended up being the largest North Carolina blood drive in history at the time. In the state, I should say.

[Assistant] Very good. Very good. So your summers were spent volunteering for the most part while you were in high school and college or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In college I did not study language, no.

[Assistant] OK. And were you doing any volunteer work, either in high school or college?

[User] In high school, I did a little bit here and there, mostly sports and extracurricular honor society type activities took up most of my time. Throughout the summers of high school and undergrad, I went on the Appalachian Service Project, which is a mission trip that goes to the Appalachian Mountains during the summer and works on the homes with lower income families and families in need. That was a significant part of my summers the first decade of the century. And in college or at App State during my time there, I feel like I got more and more involved in the community as a, uh, working with the local food bank was one thing. There was another group called People Fighting Poverty, which was an on-campus group that worked to address homelessness through different initiatives as well as I was a logistics coordinator for a blood drive, which was a volunteer activity as well. And that actually ended up being the largest North Carolina blood drive in history at the time. In the state, I should say.

[Assistant] Very good. Very good. So your summers were spent volunteering for the most part while you were in high school and college or?

[User] Yeah, I guess I did not specify. That was only a week, a weeklong project, but I did it every summer for nine summers.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In high school, I did a little bit here and there, mostly sports and extracurricular honor society type activities took up most of my time. Throughout the summers of high school and undergrad, I went on the Appalachian Service Project, which is a mission trip that goes to the Appalachian Mountains during the summer and works on the homes with lower income families and families in need. That was a significant part of my summers the first decade of the century. And in college or at App State during my time there, I feel like I got more and more involved in the community as a, uh, working with the local food bank was one thing. There was another group called People Fighting Poverty, which was an on-campus group that worked to address homelessness through different initiatives as well as I was a logistics coordinator for a blood drive, which was a volunteer activity as well. And that actually ended up being the largest North Carolina blood drive in history at the time. In the state, I should say.

[Assistant] Very good. Very good. So your summers were spent volunteering for the most part while you were in high school and college or?

[User] Yeah, I guess I did not specify. That was only a week, a weeklong project, but I did it every summer for nine summers.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] So yeah, thanks for the good clarification.

[Assistant] Oh, well, OK. But and otherwise, what did you do in the summers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I guess I did not specify. That was only a week, a weeklong project, but I did it every summer for nine summers.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] So yeah, thanks for the good clarification.

[Assistant] Oh, well, OK. But and otherwise, what did you do in the summers?

[User] Yeah. So when I was App State, most of my summers were spent actually working at the Gregory Poole Equipment Company. I was a maintenance assistant and I did a lot of painting in the summer heat, especially those yellow poles that you see all over the place.

[Assistant] All right. Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So yeah, thanks for the good clarification.

[Assistant] Oh, well, OK. But and otherwise, what did you do in the summers?

[User] Yeah. So when I was App State, most of my summers were spent actually working at the Gregory Poole Equipment Company. I was a maintenance assistant and I did a lot of painting in the summer heat, especially those yellow poles that you see all over the place.

[Assistant] All right. Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] I don't remember my first exact exposure to it. A couple of my friends when I was in either late high school or early college had done it, and so it was on my radar as soon as I entered college and just something I had always, always thought about it, about doing it. And but again, I don't remember my first specific moment hearing about it.

[Assistant] So it was pretty soon after you graduated from college that you applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So when I was App State, most of my summers were spent actually working at the Gregory Poole Equipment Company. I was a maintenance assistant and I did a lot of painting in the summer heat, especially those yellow poles that you see all over the place.

[Assistant] All right. Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] I don't remember my first exact exposure to it. A couple of my friends when I was in either late high school or early college had done it, and so it was on my radar as soon as I entered college and just something I had always, always thought about it, about doing it. And but again, I don't remember my first specific moment hearing about it.

[Assistant] So it was pretty soon after you graduated from college that you applied?

[User] Correct. I think I applied within a few weeks after graduating. And it had always been kind of something on the, uh, I'd always thought about. But what really sealed it for me was when I went to Bolivia in 2008 with Appalachian State study abroad course, and we went down there for three weeks on a social change and leadership course. And that was my first time out of the United States. That was the, that just opened a lot of doors for me and exposed me to a lot of things and really showed me the value of. It changed my perspective on service completely. And that's what directly led me to apply for the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] When you applied to the Peace Corps, did you have to take any kind of entrance exam or just fill out paperwork?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember my first exact exposure to it. A couple of my friends when I was in either late high school or early college had done it, and so it was on my radar as soon as I entered college and just something I had always, always thought about it, about doing it. And but again, I don't remember my first specific moment hearing about it.

[Assistant] So it was pretty soon after you graduated from college that you applied?

[User] Correct. I think I applied within a few weeks after graduating. And it had always been kind of something on the, uh, I'd always thought about. But what really sealed it for me was when I went to Bolivia in 2008 with Appalachian State study abroad course, and we went down there for three weeks on a social change and leadership course. And that was my first time out of the United States. That was the, that just opened a lot of doors for me and exposed me to a lot of things and really showed me the value of. It changed my perspective on service completely. And that's what directly led me to apply for the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] When you applied to the Peace Corps, did you have to take any kind of entrance exam or just fill out paperwork?

[User] No exam, there was just paperwork and an interview I think were the most of the involvement in that process.

[Assistant] Where did the interview take place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. I think I applied within a few weeks after graduating. And it had always been kind of something on the, uh, I'd always thought about. But what really sealed it for me was when I went to Bolivia in 2008 with Appalachian State study abroad course, and we went down there for three weeks on a social change and leadership course. And that was my first time out of the United States. That was the, that just opened a lot of doors for me and exposed me to a lot of things and really showed me the value of. It changed my perspective on service completely. And that's what directly led me to apply for the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] When you applied to the Peace Corps, did you have to take any kind of entrance exam or just fill out paperwork?

[User] No exam, there was just paperwork and an interview I think were the most of the involvement in that process.

[Assistant] Where did the interview take place?

[User] I believe it took place on the NC State campus.

[Assistant] OK. Well, from the time of your application to the time you got your invitation, how long was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No exam, there was just paperwork and an interview I think were the most of the involvement in that process.

[Assistant] Where did the interview take place?

[User] I believe it took place on the NC State campus.

[Assistant] OK. Well, from the time of your application to the time you got your invitation, how long was that?

[User] So I think I got my application in January 2009 and got the invitation. It was either October, I want to say November 2009, so about ten months.

[Assistant] And after that, when did training start?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe it took place on the NC State campus.

[Assistant] OK. Well, from the time of your application to the time you got your invitation, how long was that?

[User] So I think I got my application in January 2009 and got the invitation. It was either October, I want to say November 2009, so about ten months.

[Assistant] And after that, when did training start?

[User] So from there it was about 4 to 5 months later. Training began the very end of March 2010.

[Assistant] And where did the training take place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think I got my application in January 2009 and got the invitation. It was either October, I want to say November 2009, so about ten months.

[Assistant] And after that, when did training start?

[User] So from there it was about 4 to 5 months later. Training began the very end of March 2010.

[Assistant] And where did the training take place?

[User] My training was in the small village of Semenivka in Ukraine, which was in the Kyiv Oblast, oblast being a word for kind of region. And that was about an hour or two from Kyiv, which is the capital.

[Assistant] Were you in a group of other trainees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So from there it was about 4 to 5 months later. Training began the very end of March 2010.

[Assistant] And where did the training take place?

[User] My training was in the small village of Semenivka in Ukraine, which was in the Kyiv Oblast, oblast being a word for kind of region. And that was about an hour or two from Kyiv, which is the capital.

[Assistant] Were you in a group of other trainees?

[User] Yeah. So there was about 75 of us that, or 77 I should say, that went over to Ukraine at the same time. And then in my training village of Semenivka, there was myself and four other volunteers.

[Assistant] I see. Now, does did Ukraine have a history of having Peace Corps volunteers work in the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My training was in the small village of Semenivka in Ukraine, which was in the Kyiv Oblast, oblast being a word for kind of region. And that was about an hour or two from Kyiv, which is the capital.

[Assistant] Were you in a group of other trainees?

[User] Yeah. So there was about 75 of us that, or 77 I should say, that went over to Ukraine at the same time. And then in my training village of Semenivka, there was myself and four other volunteers.

[Assistant] I see. Now, does did Ukraine have a history of having Peace Corps volunteers work in the country?

[User] Yes. So we were the 38th group that, and groups had been coming about twice a year. So there was definitely, definitely previous volunteers.

[Assistant] So you did your training in country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So there was about 75 of us that, or 77 I should say, that went over to Ukraine at the same time. And then in my training village of Semenivka, there was myself and four other volunteers.

[Assistant] I see. Now, does did Ukraine have a history of having Peace Corps volunteers work in the country?

[User] Yes. So we were the 38th group that, and groups had been coming about twice a year. So there was definitely, definitely previous volunteers.

[Assistant] So you did your training in country.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So what did you think when you first arrived and how did you get to your training site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So we were the 38th group that, and groups had been coming about twice a year. So there was definitely, definitely previous volunteers.

[Assistant] So you did your training in country.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So what did you think when you first arrived and how did you get to your training site?

[User] I think when we first got to Ukraine, we spent I want to say two or three nights at an old Soviet facility for kind of orientation arrival. And it was dark and it was still cold in March, there was snow on the ground. And my first kind of thoughts were, you know, what have I gotten myself into? But in talking to other volunteers, I wasn't the only one. And from there, everything was happening so fast and we're being thrown tons of information. So those few days are still kind of a blur, but I still remember them very clear at the same time. But from there, we took busses with our cluster and to the various training sites from there.

[Assistant] So it was a mixed group of men and women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So what did you think when you first arrived and how did you get to your training site?

[User] I think when we first got to Ukraine, we spent I want to say two or three nights at an old Soviet facility for kind of orientation arrival. And it was dark and it was still cold in March, there was snow on the ground. And my first kind of thoughts were, you know, what have I gotten myself into? But in talking to other volunteers, I wasn't the only one. And from there, everything was happening so fast and we're being thrown tons of information. So those few days are still kind of a blur, but I still remember them very clear at the same time. But from there, we took busses with our cluster and to the various training sites from there.

[Assistant] So it was a mixed group of men and women?

[User] Correct. Yeah, men and women, all different ages. I think we had one gentleman who was 79 at the time.

[Assistant] Were there any married couples or was everybody single?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think when we first got to Ukraine, we spent I want to say two or three nights at an old Soviet facility for kind of orientation arrival. And it was dark and it was still cold in March, there was snow on the ground. And my first kind of thoughts were, you know, what have I gotten myself into? But in talking to other volunteers, I wasn't the only one. And from there, everything was happening so fast and we're being thrown tons of information. So those few days are still kind of a blur, but I still remember them very clear at the same time. But from there, we took busses with our cluster and to the various training sites from there.

[Assistant] So it was a mixed group of men and women?

[User] Correct. Yeah, men and women, all different ages. I think we had one gentleman who was 79 at the time.

[Assistant] Were there any married couples or was everybody single?

[User] Uh, yes, there were two, I want to say two or three married couples.

[Assistant] Was everybody destined to do teaching or had the trainees had teacher training experience or they had teacher education degrees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. Yeah, men and women, all different ages. I think we had one gentleman who was 79 at the time.

[Assistant] Were there any married couples or was everybody single?

[User] Uh, yes, there were two, I want to say two or three married couples.

[Assistant] Was everybody destined to do teaching or had the trainees had teacher training experience or they had teacher education degrees?

[User] So I think everyone did not necessarily have a certain degree and we had different experiences and different backgrounds. Ukraine works in three different programs. They have youth development, which I was a part of, community development, and TEFL, teaching English as a foreign language. So in our Group 38 there was about 50 youth development volunteers and the rest were community development. So 27 approximately, give or take. And then the TEFL teachers come in the other group. So like Group 39, for example, Group 37, on the other ends of 38 were all TEFL teachers.

[Assistant] I see. And learning about the host country, was that done in orientation or did that continue through your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, yes, there were two, I want to say two or three married couples.

[Assistant] Was everybody destined to do teaching or had the trainees had teacher training experience or they had teacher education degrees?

[User] So I think everyone did not necessarily have a certain degree and we had different experiences and different backgrounds. Ukraine works in three different programs. They have youth development, which I was a part of, community development, and TEFL, teaching English as a foreign language. So in our Group 38 there was about 50 youth development volunteers and the rest were community development. So 27 approximately, give or take. And then the TEFL teachers come in the other group. So like Group 39, for example, Group 37, on the other ends of 38 were all TEFL teachers.

[Assistant] I see. And learning about the host country, was that done in orientation or did that continue through your training?

[User] That continued throughout my training and until the very last day I was in Ukraine, not as official, but there was definitely trainings about, intentional trainings throughout training about Ukrainian history, Ukrainian culture, and Ukrainian way of life.

[Assistant] And including language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That continued throughout my training and until the very last day I was in Ukraine, not as official, but there was definitely trainings about, intentional trainings throughout training about Ukrainian history, Ukrainian culture, and Ukrainian way of life.

[Assistant] And including language?

[User] Correct. We had 4 to 5 hours of language classes every day.

[Assistant] What language?

[User] I was in a group that learned Ukrainian. And again, it was probably 60% of the clusters learned Ukrainian and 40% of the clusters learned Russian.

[Assistant] Was there any particular reason for that? Is the country bilingual then, Ukrainian and Russian speakers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. We had 4 to 5 hours of language classes every day.

[Assistant] What language?

[User] I was in a group that learned Ukrainian. And again, it was probably 60% of the clusters learned Ukrainian and 40% of the clusters learned Russian.

[Assistant] Was there any particular reason for that? Is the country bilingual then, Ukrainian and Russian speakers?

[User] Yes, I think I would say the majority of Ukrainians understand and can speak both languages fluently. The Ukrainian, no matter what is spoken in the home, Ukrainian is taught and used in schools. But at the same time, there's lots of Russian on TV, for example. But we were assigned by Peace Corps a certain one of the languages to learn based off where they'd be sending us in the country. So in the western part generally speaks Ukrainian, the eastern part generally speaks Russian. And then through the middles is a mix of kind of both that has commonly been referred to as Surzhyk.

[Assistant] And who was doing your language training? Do you have native speakers that were your teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in a group that learned Ukrainian. And again, it was probably 60% of the clusters learned Ukrainian and 40% of the clusters learned Russian.

[Assistant] Was there any particular reason for that? Is the country bilingual then, Ukrainian and Russian speakers?

[User] Yes, I think I would say the majority of Ukrainians understand and can speak both languages fluently. The Ukrainian, no matter what is spoken in the home, Ukrainian is taught and used in schools. But at the same time, there's lots of Russian on TV, for example. But we were assigned by Peace Corps a certain one of the languages to learn based off where they'd be sending us in the country. So in the western part generally speaks Ukrainian, the eastern part generally speaks Russian. And then through the middles is a mix of kind of both that has commonly been referred to as Surzhyk.

[Assistant] And who was doing your language training? Do you have native speakers that were your teachers?

[User] Yes. So all the teachers, language teachers, were Ukrainians who also were fluent in English and could explain things if need be in our native language.

[Assistant] Was there any expectation that you would reach a certain level of competence in the language to be able to function?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think I would say the majority of Ukrainians understand and can speak both languages fluently. The Ukrainian, no matter what is spoken in the home, Ukrainian is taught and used in schools. But at the same time, there's lots of Russian on TV, for example. But we were assigned by Peace Corps a certain one of the languages to learn based off where they'd be sending us in the country. So in the western part generally speaks Ukrainian, the eastern part generally speaks Russian. And then through the middles is a mix of kind of both that has commonly been referred to as Surzhyk.

[Assistant] And who was doing your language training? Do you have native speakers that were your teachers?

[User] Yes. So all the teachers, language teachers, were Ukrainians who also were fluent in English and could explain things if need be in our native language.

[Assistant] Was there any expectation that you would reach a certain level of competence in the language to be able to function?

[User] Yes. So they have a different, they have a scale of how far you've gone in a particular language and the, uh, you needed to be intermediate mid is what they called it for the youth development project. And I think just intermediate low for the community development or for, sorry for the TEFL program, because they're likely just not going to be speaking as much Ukrainian and Russian. But for me it was intermediate mid and I came out of training with intermediate high. So I was, uh, I was all right in that boat.

[Assistant] So would you characterize yourself as motivated to learn the language? Enjoyed learning the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So all the teachers, language teachers, were Ukrainians who also were fluent in English and could explain things if need be in our native language.

[Assistant] Was there any expectation that you would reach a certain level of competence in the language to be able to function?

[User] Yes. So they have a different, they have a scale of how far you've gone in a particular language and the, uh, you needed to be intermediate mid is what they called it for the youth development project. And I think just intermediate low for the community development or for, sorry for the TEFL program, because they're likely just not going to be speaking as much Ukrainian and Russian. But for me it was intermediate mid and I came out of training with intermediate high. So I was, uh, I was all right in that boat.

[Assistant] So would you characterize yourself as motivated to learn the language? Enjoyed learning the language?

[User] I did. I went in really kind of fearful of it because I'd never really learned and then spoken a foreign language. So I actually spent a month before leaving for Ukraine, I spent an hour every day looking at the alphabet, looking at some of the basic phrases that Peace Corps had sent us ahead of time, to try to get a jump start on it. And I'm really glad I did, as I felt it paid off during training. And I quickly saw, especially in a village of 600 people in Semenivka, and then when once I got to my site as well, that you learn Ukrainian or not communicate for a couple of years. And as well as just the immense appreciation that Ukrainians had for us when trying to learn their language was a huge way just to build relationships and build trust and enabling us to work together more effectively.

[Assistant] Was the teaching done with conversation or written lessons, or was there a mix?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So they have a different, they have a scale of how far you've gone in a particular language and the, uh, you needed to be intermediate mid is what they called it for the youth development project. And I think just intermediate low for the community development or for, sorry for the TEFL program, because they're likely just not going to be speaking as much Ukrainian and Russian. But for me it was intermediate mid and I came out of training with intermediate high. So I was, uh, I was all right in that boat.

[Assistant] So would you characterize yourself as motivated to learn the language? Enjoyed learning the language?

[User] I did. I went in really kind of fearful of it because I'd never really learned and then spoken a foreign language. So I actually spent a month before leaving for Ukraine, I spent an hour every day looking at the alphabet, looking at some of the basic phrases that Peace Corps had sent us ahead of time, to try to get a jump start on it. And I'm really glad I did, as I felt it paid off during training. And I quickly saw, especially in a village of 600 people in Semenivka, and then when once I got to my site as well, that you learn Ukrainian or not communicate for a couple of years. And as well as just the immense appreciation that Ukrainians had for us when trying to learn their language was a huge way just to build relationships and build trust and enabling us to work together more effectively.

[Assistant] Was the teaching done with conversation or written lessons, or was there a mix?

[User] There was a mix. I thought Peace Corps had done a great job with the design of their language classes. Like you said, there were conversations that we had to practice. There were role plays, there were written exercises, there were homework assignments where we had to find out something from our host family, for example, in Ukrainian. I feel like they, yeah, they covered kind of every tactic possible almost to learn a language and I thought that was really effective.

[Assistant] So you were living with a host family during your training and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I went in really kind of fearful of it because I'd never really learned and then spoken a foreign language. So I actually spent a month before leaving for Ukraine, I spent an hour every day looking at the alphabet, looking at some of the basic phrases that Peace Corps had sent us ahead of time, to try to get a jump start on it. And I'm really glad I did, as I felt it paid off during training. And I quickly saw, especially in a village of 600 people in Semenivka, and then when once I got to my site as well, that you learn Ukrainian or not communicate for a couple of years. And as well as just the immense appreciation that Ukrainians had for us when trying to learn their language was a huge way just to build relationships and build trust and enabling us to work together more effectively.

[Assistant] Was the teaching done with conversation or written lessons, or was there a mix?

[User] There was a mix. I thought Peace Corps had done a great job with the design of their language classes. Like you said, there were conversations that we had to practice. There were role plays, there were written exercises, there were homework assignments where we had to find out something from our host family, for example, in Ukrainian. I feel like they, yeah, they covered kind of every tactic possible almost to learn a language and I thought that was really effective.

[Assistant] So you were living with a host family during your training and?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Tell us something about that. How was the host family and what was that experience like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a mix. I thought Peace Corps had done a great job with the design of their language classes. Like you said, there were conversations that we had to practice. There were role plays, there were written exercises, there were homework assignments where we had to find out something from our host family, for example, in Ukrainian. I feel like they, yeah, they covered kind of every tactic possible almost to learn a language and I thought that was really effective.

[Assistant] So you were living with a host family during your training and?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Tell us something about that. How was the host family and what was that experience like?

[User] I really enjoyed it. I lived with a father and a mother and then they had two children, a son and a daughter who were both, I would say, in their young twenties at the time I was there. Both knew some English. The brother particularly was really good, but they were both in Kyiv in university and so I didn't see them a whole lot. But it was a great way to, uh, it was part of really the language and the culture and history. It's you get a look into all of that and especially with the language of just being immersed in that environment and the TV has Ukrainian on or really forcing us to communicate needs in Ukrainian. And it was, uh, you know, by the end of training we were a family.

[Assistant] Very good. Did anyone from Peace Corps Washington come to your training either prior to going to your training city or at any time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Tell us something about that. How was the host family and what was that experience like?

[User] I really enjoyed it. I lived with a father and a mother and then they had two children, a son and a daughter who were both, I would say, in their young twenties at the time I was there. Both knew some English. The brother particularly was really good, but they were both in Kyiv in university and so I didn't see them a whole lot. But it was a great way to, uh, it was part of really the language and the culture and history. It's you get a look into all of that and especially with the language of just being immersed in that environment and the TV has Ukrainian on or really forcing us to communicate needs in Ukrainian. And it was, uh, you know, by the end of training we were a family.

[Assistant] Very good. Did anyone from Peace Corps Washington come to your training either prior to going to your training city or at any time?

[User] I don't believe so. Anyone from Peace Corps? I don't remember seeing really anyone from Peace Corps Washington during training at all. There were a few U.S. staff based in Kyiv and at least one of them came to visit our particular training site.

[Assistant] So there was a Peace Corps staff in country?