[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it got rid of a bunch of people that were unwilling to wait around then, because it was obvious that this was a major change in the program, that we would never fly as much as we thought we would fly, and it would be several years, unknown how many years before we flew again, so I think it motivated people to leave. Ox is one, for instance, because he was not wanting to wait around. Did people leave because they now understood that this was a real flying business where accidents happen? I don’t think so. Most of us came from operational backgrounds where that happened.

[Assistant] Did you ever consider leaving the Astronaut Office at that point?

[User] No. No, Rick Hauck said, “We’re going to be all right. We’ll be fine.” He hinted that we might fly soon or we might be on the crew that flew the return. He went to Headquarters and was Public Affairs Associate Administrator for Fletcher then and was very tight with Fletcher, so we just hung around.

[Assistant] Before you flew on STS-26, you were working in Space Station.

[User] Yes, I got assigned to Space Station, the early conceptual design, Station Freedom at that time.

[Assistant] Was that the dual-keel design at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, Rick Hauck said, “We’re going to be all right. We’ll be fine.” He hinted that we might fly soon or we might be on the crew that flew the return. He went to Headquarters and was Public Affairs Associate Administrator for Fletcher then and was very tight with Fletcher, so we just hung around.

[Assistant] Before you flew on STS-26, you were working in Space Station.

[User] Yes, I got assigned to Space Station, the early conceptual design, Station Freedom at that time.

[Assistant] Was that the dual-keel design at that point?

[User] Well, it started with dual keel and had a racetrack arrangement of modules. It had all kinds of silly stuff. It had a hangar for fixing satellites. I don’t know how we thought we’d ever lift all that up there or make it work when we got it there, but, yes, that was that time frame.

[Assistant] And were you primarily working crew interface as you were in the seventies with the payloads?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I got assigned to Space Station, the early conceptual design, Station Freedom at that time.

[Assistant] Was that the dual-keel design at that point?

[User] Well, it started with dual keel and had a racetrack arrangement of modules. It had all kinds of silly stuff. It had a hangar for fixing satellites. I don’t know how we thought we’d ever lift all that up there or make it work when we got it there, but, yes, that was that time frame.

[Assistant] And were you primarily working crew interface as you were in the seventies with the payloads?

[User] Yes, yes, that’s the assignment. Crew concerns. One of my big campaigns was windows in the staterooms. I said, if you’re going to have staterooms, they have to have windows.

[Assistant] What are staterooms?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it started with dual keel and had a racetrack arrangement of modules. It had all kinds of silly stuff. It had a hangar for fixing satellites. I don’t know how we thought we’d ever lift all that up there or make it work when we got it there, but, yes, that was that time frame.

[Assistant] And were you primarily working crew interface as you were in the seventies with the payloads?

[User] Yes, yes, that’s the assignment. Crew concerns. One of my big campaigns was windows in the staterooms. I said, if you’re going to have staterooms, they have to have windows.

[Assistant] What are staterooms?

[User] Well, it’s crew quarters, like on a ship. So I think in the end they didn’t even have staterooms. They got tents in the hallway. In those days we insisted on staterooms with windows.

[Assistant] Who were some of the other folks you were working with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, that’s the assignment. Crew concerns. One of my big campaigns was windows in the staterooms. I said, if you’re going to have staterooms, they have to have windows.

[Assistant] What are staterooms?

[User] Well, it’s crew quarters, like on a ship. So I think in the end they didn’t even have staterooms. They got tents in the hallway. In those days we insisted on staterooms with windows.

[Assistant] Who were some of the other folks you were working with?

[User] Story Musgrave. Ron [Ronald J.] Grabe was involved then. We set up an office to focus on it, so I think Mike [C. Michael] Foale worked with me for a while. Those are the ones I remember.

[Assistant] The Astronaut Office had changed a little bit since you had come in. I think John Young had left and Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein became chief.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s crew quarters, like on a ship. So I think in the end they didn’t even have staterooms. They got tents in the hallway. In those days we insisted on staterooms with windows.

[Assistant] Who were some of the other folks you were working with?

[User] Story Musgrave. Ron [Ronald J.] Grabe was involved then. We set up an office to focus on it, so I think Mike [C. Michael] Foale worked with me for a while. Those are the ones I remember.

[Assistant] The Astronaut Office had changed a little bit since you had come in. I think John Young had left and Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein became chief.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Flight Crew Operations, George Abbey wasn’t there anymore, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Story Musgrave. Ron [Ronald J.] Grabe was involved then. We set up an office to focus on it, so I think Mike [C. Michael] Foale worked with me for a while. Those are the ones I remember.

[Assistant] The Astronaut Office had changed a little bit since you had come in. I think John Young had left and Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein became chief.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Flight Crew Operations, George Abbey wasn’t there anymore, is that correct?

[User] He left after\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[Assistant] What impact did that have on the office as you stepped into more of a more management-type position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He left after\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[Assistant] What impact did that have on the office as you stepped into more of a more management-type position?

[User] Things were probably a little more straightforward, you know, how decisions were made. So I worked for Don [Donald R.] Puddy as the Flight Operations Directorate Director. Your basic question was how did the environment change?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think we were all more realistic then. Sort of the halcyon days of “We can do anything” and “The Shuttle will revolutionize the world,” that was changing. We realized that with the satellite business going back to expendable rockets, that the Shuttle had to have a mission, and so that’s why Station became very important, so we started really focusing on making Station a real thing so the Shuttle had something to do.

[Assistant] That makes sense. When did you find out officially that you were going to be on the Return to Flight crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Things were probably a little more straightforward, you know, how decisions were made. So I worked for Don [Donald R.] Puddy as the Flight Operations Directorate Director. Your basic question was how did the environment change?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think we were all more realistic then. Sort of the halcyon days of “We can do anything” and “The Shuttle will revolutionize the world,” that was changing. We realized that with the satellite business going back to expendable rockets, that the Shuttle had to have a mission, and so that’s why Station became very important, so we started really focusing on making Station a real thing so the Shuttle had something to do.

[Assistant] That makes sense. When did you find out officially that you were going to be on the Return to Flight crew?

[User] They timed that at the one-year anniversary of the accident. That’s when they announced it. I think we knew it a couple weeks before.

[Assistant] What did your family think of that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were all more realistic then. Sort of the halcyon days of “We can do anything” and “The Shuttle will revolutionize the world,” that was changing. We realized that with the satellite business going back to expendable rockets, that the Shuttle had to have a mission, and so that’s why Station became very important, so we started really focusing on making Station a real thing so the Shuttle had something to do.

[Assistant] That makes sense. When did you find out officially that you were going to be on the Return to Flight crew?

[User] They timed that at the one-year anniversary of the accident. That’s when they announced it. I think we knew it a couple weeks before.

[Assistant] What did your family think of that decision?

[User] They were okay. It was fine. You either stay in the business or you get out of it, and if you stay in the business, it’s to fly.

[Assistant] A lot of people have told us, and I’ve read as well, that everyone wanted to be on this flight. Can you explain why that was the case?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They timed that at the one-year anniversary of the accident. That’s when they announced it. I think we knew it a couple weeks before.

[Assistant] What did your family think of that decision?

[User] They were okay. It was fine. You either stay in the business or you get out of it, and if you stay in the business, it’s to fly.

[Assistant] A lot of people have told us, and I’ve read as well, that everyone wanted to be on this flight. Can you explain why that was the case?

[User] What I just said. If you’re going to stay in the business, you stay in it to fly. So, yes, that was a big deal to be on that flight. My story is, well, they just picked the most qualified, best-looking crew they could find. The reality is, Rick Hauck already had the crew, essentially four of us, [6]1-F, were lined up sort of in line, and they added Pinky [George D. Nelson] to make the fifth, so that’s the real story.

[Assistant] Tell me about the crew relationship. You guys were all veterans and you were going to be flying this flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were okay. It was fine. You either stay in the business or you get out of it, and if you stay in the business, it’s to fly.

[Assistant] A lot of people have told us, and I’ve read as well, that everyone wanted to be on this flight. Can you explain why that was the case?

[User] What I just said. If you’re going to stay in the business, you stay in it to fly. So, yes, that was a big deal to be on that flight. My story is, well, they just picked the most qualified, best-looking crew they could find. The reality is, Rick Hauck already had the crew, essentially four of us, [6]1-F, were lined up sort of in line, and they added Pinky [George D. Nelson] to make the fifth, so that’s the real story.

[Assistant] Tell me about the crew relationship. You guys were all veterans and you were going to be flying this flight.

[User] Yes. So that was a good, hardworking crew. We had a lot of responsibility, I think, and that was a lot more public. The first mission, as I said, we did it because no one noticed. We were just one of ten. Now suddenly we’re one of one, so there was a lot more public pressure on doing things. I’ll never forget Dan’s prayer as we go to the pad for STS-26. He said, “We need to take time to say a brief prayer.” Said, “God help you if you screw this up.” [laughs]

[Assistant] Thanks, boss.\n\n There was a lot of press interest, of course, in this Return to Flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I just said. If you’re going to stay in the business, you stay in it to fly. So, yes, that was a big deal to be on that flight. My story is, well, they just picked the most qualified, best-looking crew they could find. The reality is, Rick Hauck already had the crew, essentially four of us, [6]1-F, were lined up sort of in line, and they added Pinky [George D. Nelson] to make the fifth, so that’s the real story.

[Assistant] Tell me about the crew relationship. You guys were all veterans and you were going to be flying this flight.

[User] Yes. So that was a good, hardworking crew. We had a lot of responsibility, I think, and that was a lot more public. The first mission, as I said, we did it because no one noticed. We were just one of ten. Now suddenly we’re one of one, so there was a lot more public pressure on doing things. I’ll never forget Dan’s prayer as we go to the pad for STS-26. He said, “We need to take time to say a brief prayer.” Said, “God help you if you screw this up.” [laughs]

[Assistant] Thanks, boss.\n\n There was a lot of press interest, of course, in this Return to Flight.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] How did the crew handle that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So that was a good, hardworking crew. We had a lot of responsibility, I think, and that was a lot more public. The first mission, as I said, we did it because no one noticed. We were just one of ten. Now suddenly we’re one of one, so there was a lot more public pressure on doing things. I’ll never forget Dan’s prayer as we go to the pad for STS-26. He said, “We need to take time to say a brief prayer.” Said, “God help you if you screw this up.” [laughs]

[Assistant] Thanks, boss.\n\n There was a lot of press interest, of course, in this Return to Flight.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] How did the crew handle that?

[User] You just focus on it. I mean, you don’t see that. When you’re flying, it’s just the five of you and the CapCom. That’s all there is in the world.

[Assistant] I understand that there was a\n\n 48 Hours\n\n episode and you were also featured on the cover of the\n\n New York Times Magazine\n\n .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] How did the crew handle that?

[User] You just focus on it. I mean, you don’t see that. When you’re flying, it’s just the five of you and the CapCom. That’s all there is in the world.

[Assistant] I understand that there was a\n\n 48 Hours\n\n episode and you were also featured on the cover of the\n\n New York Times Magazine\n\n .

[User] Yes, that’s true.

[Assistant] What did you think of all of this media attention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You just focus on it. I mean, you don’t see that. When you’re flying, it’s just the five of you and the CapCom. That’s all there is in the world.

[Assistant] I understand that there was a\n\n 48 Hours\n\n episode and you were also featured on the cover of the\n\n New York Times Magazine\n\n .

[User] Yes, that’s true.

[Assistant] What did you think of all of this media attention?

[User] I didn’t care for it, but part of the job, I guess. Not part of it that I sought out, enjoyed particularly.

[Assistant] Had training changed at all since your last flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s true.

[Assistant] What did you think of all of this media attention?

[User] I didn’t care for it, but part of the job, I guess. Not part of it that I sought out, enjoyed particularly.

[Assistant] Had training changed at all since your last flight?

[User] Probably a lot more training on contingency scenarios, the things that could go wrong during launch and what to do about them, although I’ve always been a little skeptical that that was really a “stay busy” kind of approach. Reality is, if things really start going wrong, there’s not much you can do.

[Assistant] Was that sort of the consensus among the astronauts when the crew escape system was devised?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t care for it, but part of the job, I guess. Not part of it that I sought out, enjoyed particularly.

[Assistant] Had training changed at all since your last flight?

[User] Probably a lot more training on contingency scenarios, the things that could go wrong during launch and what to do about them, although I’ve always been a little skeptical that that was really a “stay busy” kind of approach. Reality is, if things really start going wrong, there’s not much you can do.

[Assistant] Was that sort of the consensus among the astronauts when the crew escape system was devised?

[User] Oh, yes. What a waste. That’s political eyewash. And I really feel bad we didn’t stand up and say that, because it’s an extra I don’t know how many thousand pounds of weight in the crew cabin that takes away from the payload-carrying capability of the Space Shuttle, and it just is no value added. It’s value subtracted. What little you could do in the event something went wrong, you could do less of it when you’re burdened by these suits that do you no good. I was totally against it and still am. They offer no value.

[Assistant] Interesting. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book\n\n [Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\n\n ]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably a lot more training on contingency scenarios, the things that could go wrong during launch and what to do about them, although I’ve always been a little skeptical that that was really a “stay busy” kind of approach. Reality is, if things really start going wrong, there’s not much you can do.

[Assistant] Was that sort of the consensus among the astronauts when the crew escape system was devised?

[User] Oh, yes. What a waste. That’s political eyewash. And I really feel bad we didn’t stand up and say that, because it’s an extra I don’t know how many thousand pounds of weight in the crew cabin that takes away from the payload-carrying capability of the Space Shuttle, and it just is no value added. It’s value subtracted. What little you could do in the event something went wrong, you could do less of it when you’re burdened by these suits that do you no good. I was totally against it and still am. They offer no value.

[Assistant] Interesting. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book\n\n [Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\n\n ]?

[User] Yes. Mike’s great. Mike has a lot better memory than I do. He remembers things. I think he also has the writer’s skill of where he can’t remember, he makes it up. [laughs] In a creative way. My idea of the world in the office back then was never as Machiavellian as Mike’s.

[Assistant] What did you think of his depiction of the Return to Flight crew and his depiction of Rick Hauck, the commander?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. What a waste. That’s political eyewash. And I really feel bad we didn’t stand up and say that, because it’s an extra I don’t know how many thousand pounds of weight in the crew cabin that takes away from the payload-carrying capability of the Space Shuttle, and it just is no value added. It’s value subtracted. What little you could do in the event something went wrong, you could do less of it when you’re burdened by these suits that do you no good. I was totally against it and still am. They offer no value.

[Assistant] Interesting. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book\n\n [Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\n\n ]?

[User] Yes. Mike’s great. Mike has a lot better memory than I do. He remembers things. I think he also has the writer’s skill of where he can’t remember, he makes it up. [laughs] In a creative way. My idea of the world in the office back then was never as Machiavellian as Mike’s.

[Assistant] What did you think of his depiction of the Return to Flight crew and his depiction of Rick Hauck, the commander?

[User] I’m trying to remember what he said.

[Assistant] I haven’t read it in a while, but I think he thought the crew was a little full of themselves, that they got, of course, dibs on all the simulators.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Mike’s great. Mike has a lot better memory than I do. He remembers things. I think he also has the writer’s skill of where he can’t remember, he makes it up. [laughs] In a creative way. My idea of the world in the office back then was never as Machiavellian as Mike’s.

[Assistant] What did you think of his depiction of the Return to Flight crew and his depiction of Rick Hauck, the commander?

[User] I’m trying to remember what he said.

[Assistant] I haven’t read it in a while, but I think he thought the crew was a little full of themselves, that they got, of course, dibs on all the simulators.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Seemed like the Return to Flight crew was taking up too much time [and received too much attention for their relatively easy mission].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m trying to remember what he said.

[Assistant] I haven’t read it in a while, but I think he thought the crew was a little full of themselves, that they got, of course, dibs on all the simulators.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Seemed like the Return to Flight crew was taking up too much time [and received too much attention for their relatively easy mission].

[User] He was just jealous. He was just jealous. Although I like to claim that we did have a pretty good parking place. In fact, Building 4 South is smack on top of my old parking place. [laughs] So that was not bad, being prime crew for thirty-two months. Well, not thirty-two. Thirty-two minus twelve. Twenty months we were prime crew. So there were some perks to pay for all that crap about being in the press and dealing with the press and all that.

[Assistant] What was the mood like at the Center as you were preparing for this flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Seemed like the Return to Flight crew was taking up too much time [and received too much attention for their relatively easy mission].

[User] He was just jealous. He was just jealous. Although I like to claim that we did have a pretty good parking place. In fact, Building 4 South is smack on top of my old parking place. [laughs] So that was not bad, being prime crew for thirty-two months. Well, not thirty-two. Thirty-two minus twelve. Twenty months we were prime crew. So there were some perks to pay for all that crap about being in the press and dealing with the press and all that.

[Assistant] What was the mood like at the Center as you were preparing for this flight?

[User] Just anxious to get on with it. We’d dealt with all the issues. Truth is, we could have launched on the next warm day. So we had to fix that problem about three different ways. Flight rules say you can’t launch when it’s cold, and redesigned the joints so it can’t have a problem when it’s cold. I think they added a redundant seal, as I recall. So anyway, I counted three fixes. So we weren’t worried about that one anymore. It’s the one that we didn’t know about that would get you. That’s always true. Like debris falling down the leading edge. So I remember thinking about the leading edge and carbon phenolic and handling it a little bit, just to understand what it was. We never thought of it as being this extremely fragile thing that you could knock a hole in, really. Well, I didn’t lose any sleep about that.

[Assistant] Any concerns on that day going out to the launch pad, other than what Dan had offered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was just jealous. He was just jealous. Although I like to claim that we did have a pretty good parking place. In fact, Building 4 South is smack on top of my old parking place. [laughs] So that was not bad, being prime crew for thirty-two months. Well, not thirty-two. Thirty-two minus twelve. Twenty months we were prime crew. So there were some perks to pay for all that crap about being in the press and dealing with the press and all that.

[Assistant] What was the mood like at the Center as you were preparing for this flight?

[User] Just anxious to get on with it. We’d dealt with all the issues. Truth is, we could have launched on the next warm day. So we had to fix that problem about three different ways. Flight rules say you can’t launch when it’s cold, and redesigned the joints so it can’t have a problem when it’s cold. I think they added a redundant seal, as I recall. So anyway, I counted three fixes. So we weren’t worried about that one anymore. It’s the one that we didn’t know about that would get you. That’s always true. Like debris falling down the leading edge. So I remember thinking about the leading edge and carbon phenolic and handling it a little bit, just to understand what it was. We never thought of it as being this extremely fragile thing that you could knock a hole in, really. Well, I didn’t lose any sleep about that.

[Assistant] Any concerns on that day going out to the launch pad, other than what Dan had offered?

[User] No, not really. It wasn’t real high tension. It was, “Let’s get out of here. We’re tired of not flying.”

[Assistant] You mentioned that that launch took about four minutes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just anxious to get on with it. We’d dealt with all the issues. Truth is, we could have launched on the next warm day. So we had to fix that problem about three different ways. Flight rules say you can’t launch when it’s cold, and redesigned the joints so it can’t have a problem when it’s cold. I think they added a redundant seal, as I recall. So anyway, I counted three fixes. So we weren’t worried about that one anymore. It’s the one that we didn’t know about that would get you. That’s always true. Like debris falling down the leading edge. So I remember thinking about the leading edge and carbon phenolic and handling it a little bit, just to understand what it was. We never thought of it as being this extremely fragile thing that you could knock a hole in, really. Well, I didn’t lose any sleep about that.

[Assistant] Any concerns on that day going out to the launch pad, other than what Dan had offered?

[User] No, not really. It wasn’t real high tension. It was, “Let’s get out of here. We’re tired of not flying.”

[Assistant] You mentioned that that launch took about four minutes.

[User] Yes, just flew by. I don’t know why. Compared to the first one, especially.

[Assistant] So, any thoughts of the\n\n Challenger\n\n crew as you were launching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. It wasn’t real high tension. It was, “Let’s get out of here. We’re tired of not flying.”

[Assistant] You mentioned that that launch took about four minutes.

[User] Yes, just flew by. I don’t know why. Compared to the first one, especially.

[Assistant] So, any thoughts of the\n\n Challenger\n\n crew as you were launching?

[User] Well, yes. When you go through maximum aerodynamic pressure, which is really where there’s most stress on the vehicle—that’s where\n\n Challenger\n\n blew up—when you fly through that area, you couldn’t help but think about them. And we had a picture of the crew on the middeck and did a little memorial for them.

[Assistant] I understand that Dave [David C.] Hilmers came up with that idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, just flew by. I don’t know why. Compared to the first one, especially.

[Assistant] So, any thoughts of the\n\n Challenger\n\n crew as you were launching?

[User] Well, yes. When you go through maximum aerodynamic pressure, which is really where there’s most stress on the vehicle—that’s where\n\n Challenger\n\n blew up—when you fly through that area, you couldn’t help but think about them. And we had a picture of the crew on the middeck and did a little memorial for them.

[Assistant] I understand that Dave [David C.] Hilmers came up with that idea.

[User] Yes, that was probably Dave.

[Assistant] What effect do you think that that had on the agency, paying homage to the crew of the\n\n Challenger\n\n ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. When you go through maximum aerodynamic pressure, which is really where there’s most stress on the vehicle—that’s where\n\n Challenger\n\n blew up—when you fly through that area, you couldn’t help but think about them. And we had a picture of the crew on the middeck and did a little memorial for them.

[Assistant] I understand that Dave [David C.] Hilmers came up with that idea.

[User] Yes, that was probably Dave.

[Assistant] What effect do you think that that had on the agency, paying homage to the crew of the\n\n Challenger\n\n ?

[User] Oh, I think it was healing. I think it was a good step. We needed to do that.

[Assistant] Before you flew on the flight, President [Ronald] Reagan came out to JSC.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was probably Dave.

[Assistant] What effect do you think that that had on the agency, paying homage to the crew of the\n\n Challenger\n\n ?

[User] Oh, I think it was healing. I think it was a good step. We needed to do that.

[Assistant] Before you flew on the flight, President [Ronald] Reagan came out to JSC.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about that event? Any recollections?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it was healing. I think it was a good step. We needed to do that.

[Assistant] Before you flew on the flight, President [Ronald] Reagan came out to JSC.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about that event? Any recollections?

[User] So we saw him then, actually, and then we saw him in the Rose Garden after the flight. But that was very flattering that he would come out there, and I got pictures of he and my family and he and the kids independently, that I hope I can find, actually because I’m not very good at keeping things. So that was an honor. What I remember about Reagan personally is he seemed not very animated until the cameras came on. That’s what I remember. When the red light of the camera came on, he came on. He was 100 percent on. Then when it was off, he was sort of off.

[Assistant] The consummate actor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about that event? Any recollections?

[User] So we saw him then, actually, and then we saw him in the Rose Garden after the flight. But that was very flattering that he would come out there, and I got pictures of he and my family and he and the kids independently, that I hope I can find, actually because I’m not very good at keeping things. So that was an honor. What I remember about Reagan personally is he seemed not very animated until the cameras came on. That’s what I remember. When the red light of the camera came on, he came on. He was 100 percent on. Then when it was off, he was sort of off.

[Assistant] The consummate actor.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you took up a jacket for him, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we saw him then, actually, and then we saw him in the Rose Garden after the flight. But that was very flattering that he would come out there, and I got pictures of he and my family and he and the kids independently, that I hope I can find, actually because I’m not very good at keeping things. So that was an honor. What I remember about Reagan personally is he seemed not very animated until the cameras came on. That’s what I remember. When the red light of the camera came on, he came on. He was 100 percent on. Then when it was off, he was sort of off.

[Assistant] The consummate actor.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you took up a jacket for him, is that correct?

[User] We did. It wasn’t me personally, but it was on the flight. In fact, we gave it to him in the Rose Garden. Yes, I’d forgotten that.

[Assistant] What did you guys during your free time on STS-26? You had a pretty light mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you took up a jacket for him, is that correct?

[User] We did. It wasn’t me personally, but it was on the flight. In fact, we gave it to him in the Rose Garden. Yes, I’d forgotten that.

[Assistant] What did you guys during your free time on STS-26? You had a pretty light mission.

[User] Yeas, really. TDRS and a couple of middeck experiments. Did the usual playing with the M&Ms, playing with your food. That’s always a biggie. Looking out the window is always a biggie. I didn’t tell you about marching. Did anybody tell you about marching?

[Assistant] I think Dick Covey mentioned something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. It wasn’t me personally, but it was on the flight. In fact, we gave it to him in the Rose Garden. Yes, I’d forgotten that.

[Assistant] What did you guys during your free time on STS-26? You had a pretty light mission.

[User] Yeas, really. TDRS and a couple of middeck experiments. Did the usual playing with the M&Ms, playing with your food. That’s always a biggie. Looking out the window is always a biggie. I didn’t tell you about marching. Did anybody tell you about marching?

[Assistant] I think Dick Covey mentioned something.

[User] That was the funniest thing.

[Assistant] Tell me about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeas, really. TDRS and a couple of middeck experiments. Did the usual playing with the M&Ms, playing with your food. That’s always a biggie. Looking out the window is always a biggie. I didn’t tell you about marching. Did anybody tell you about marching?

[Assistant] I think Dick Covey mentioned something.

[User] That was the funniest thing.

[Assistant] Tell me about it.

[User] Fish and I created this one on the middeck of the first flight, when we had kind of a down time. We had about a day or two after the EVAs, before we came home, to just kind of settle down. So we discovered that you could do close-order drill in weightlessness if you maneuvered your arms and legs the right way. So we did close-order drill, right face, about face, marching in place, and Joe came down. He was the drill sergeant. That was just so funny. [laughs]

[Assistant] I also understand that’s also featured in a movie. Dick Covey had mentioned\n\n Loaded Weapon\n\n , I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the funniest thing.

[Assistant] Tell me about it.

[User] Fish and I created this one on the middeck of the first flight, when we had kind of a down time. We had about a day or two after the EVAs, before we came home, to just kind of settle down. So we discovered that you could do close-order drill in weightlessness if you maneuvered your arms and legs the right way. So we did close-order drill, right face, about face, marching in place, and Joe came down. He was the drill sergeant. That was just so funny. [laughs]

[Assistant] I also understand that’s also featured in a movie. Dick Covey had mentioned\n\n Loaded Weapon\n\n , I think.

[User] Naked Gun 33 1/3.

[Assistant] All right. I’ll fix that on his transcript.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fish and I created this one on the middeck of the first flight, when we had kind of a down time. We had about a day or two after the EVAs, before we came home, to just kind of settle down. So we discovered that you could do close-order drill in weightlessness if you maneuvered your arms and legs the right way. So we did close-order drill, right face, about face, marching in place, and Joe came down. He was the drill sergeant. That was just so funny. [laughs]

[Assistant] I also understand that’s also featured in a movie. Dick Covey had mentioned\n\n Loaded Weapon\n\n , I think.

[User] Naked Gun 33 1/3.

[Assistant] All right. I’ll fix that on his transcript.

[User] It is. It’s\n\n Naked Gun 33 1/3\n\n , and it’s about a half a second. You really have to be ready for, but it’s there.

[Assistant] I’ll check it out, because I couldn’t find it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Naked Gun 33 1/3.

[Assistant] All right. I’ll fix that on his transcript.

[User] It is. It’s\n\n Naked Gun 33 1/3\n\n , and it’s about a half a second. You really have to be ready for, but it’s there.

[Assistant] I’ll check it out, because I couldn’t find it.

[User] Yes, check that one.

[Assistant] Your crew also planned to carry out an American flag to sort of build on the patriotism of the flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. It’s\n\n Naked Gun 33 1/3\n\n , and it’s about a half a second. You really have to be ready for, but it’s there.

[Assistant] I’ll check it out, because I couldn’t find it.

[User] Yes, check that one.

[Assistant] Your crew also planned to carry out an American flag to sort of build on the patriotism of the flight.

[User] Yes, and it was right at the Olympics. Yes, we did, in fact, at touchdown.

[Assistant] Do you remember there being any sort of political outrage at carrying out the flag?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, check that one.

[Assistant] Your crew also planned to carry out an American flag to sort of build on the patriotism of the flight.

[User] Yes, and it was right at the Olympics. Yes, we did, in fact, at touchdown.

[Assistant] Do you remember there being any sort of political outrage at carrying out the flag?

[User] I remember somebody saying, well, somebody might not like it, and we said, “We don’t care.” Did somebody not like it?

[Assistant] Rick had mentioned that it was the ’88 election, and someone had said that George [H.W.] Bush [and his campaign had staged the event].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and it was right at the Olympics. Yes, we did, in fact, at touchdown.

[Assistant] Do you remember there being any sort of political outrage at carrying out the flag?

[User] I remember somebody saying, well, somebody might not like it, and we said, “We don’t care.” Did somebody not like it?

[Assistant] Rick had mentioned that it was the ’88 election, and someone had said that George [H.W.] Bush [and his campaign had staged the event].

[User] Oh. Well, you know, George Bush had nothing to do with it. That was our idea, so we just weren’t in tune to that kind of politics.

[Assistant] Were you surprised that Bush was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember somebody saying, well, somebody might not like it, and we said, “We don’t care.” Did somebody not like it?

[Assistant] Rick had mentioned that it was the ’88 election, and someone had said that George [H.W.] Bush [and his campaign had staged the event].

[User] Oh. Well, you know, George Bush had nothing to do with it. That was our idea, so we just weren’t in tune to that kind of politics.

[Assistant] Were you surprised that Bush was there?

[User] So let me tell you an interesting story about Bush being there. I think we learned on orbit that he would be there. So my brother had been married to this girl that lived in California, and I had met her a couple of times, and her name was—I’m going to think of her name in a minute. That’s embarrassing.

[Assistant] You can always add it later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. Well, you know, George Bush had nothing to do with it. That was our idea, so we just weren’t in tune to that kind of politics.

[Assistant] Were you surprised that Bush was there?

[User] So let me tell you an interesting story about Bush being there. I think we learned on orbit that he would be there. So my brother had been married to this girl that lived in California, and I had met her a couple of times, and her name was—I’m going to think of her name in a minute. That’s embarrassing.

[Assistant] You can always add it later.

[User] I’ll think of it. Anyway, this is landing day. We hadn’t landed yet, and the Secret Service is there and my wife’s there with my kids, and somebody comes up to her and says, “Does Mike have a sister named—,” whatever the name was.\n\n And she said, “Well, no. Why?”\n\n And she said, “Well, somebody just left this package and said it was Mike’s sister.”\n\n So Kitty said, “No, I never heard of that.”\n\n So they went and they blew up the package, and it turned out to be some sort of crystal goblet that my ex-sister-in-law, who lived close by there, had driven up and had left it for me. So the Secret Service had blown up the package. [laughs] And I didn’t know how to get in touch with her to thank her, to explain it to her. I didn’t have any way to connect. My brother had lost connection with her. So to this day I don’t know if she knows that story.

[Assistant] I’d hate to be around with the shrapnel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So let me tell you an interesting story about Bush being there. I think we learned on orbit that he would be there. So my brother had been married to this girl that lived in California, and I had met her a couple of times, and her name was—I’m going to think of her name in a minute. That’s embarrassing.

[Assistant] You can always add it later.

[User] I’ll think of it. Anyway, this is landing day. We hadn’t landed yet, and the Secret Service is there and my wife’s there with my kids, and somebody comes up to her and says, “Does Mike have a sister named—,” whatever the name was.\n\n And she said, “Well, no. Why?”\n\n And she said, “Well, somebody just left this package and said it was Mike’s sister.”\n\n So Kitty said, “No, I never heard of that.”\n\n So they went and they blew up the package, and it turned out to be some sort of crystal goblet that my ex-sister-in-law, who lived close by there, had driven up and had left it for me. So the Secret Service had blown up the package. [laughs] And I didn’t know how to get in touch with her to thank her, to explain it to her. I didn’t have any way to connect. My brother had lost connection with her. So to this day I don’t know if she knows that story.

[Assistant] I’d hate to be around with the shrapnel.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So what are your recollections of the day beyond blowing up the package? Having lunch with George and Barb [Barbara Bush].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll think of it. Anyway, this is landing day. We hadn’t landed yet, and the Secret Service is there and my wife’s there with my kids, and somebody comes up to her and says, “Does Mike have a sister named—,” whatever the name was.\n\n And she said, “Well, no. Why?”\n\n And she said, “Well, somebody just left this package and said it was Mike’s sister.”\n\n So Kitty said, “No, I never heard of that.”\n\n So they went and they blew up the package, and it turned out to be some sort of crystal goblet that my ex-sister-in-law, who lived close by there, had driven up and had left it for me. So the Secret Service had blown up the package. [laughs] And I didn’t know how to get in touch with her to thank her, to explain it to her. I didn’t have any way to connect. My brother had lost connection with her. So to this day I don’t know if she knows that story.

[Assistant] I’d hate to be around with the shrapnel.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So what are your recollections of the day beyond blowing up the package? Having lunch with George and Barb [Barbara Bush].

[User] Yes. Well, I guess we did. I guess we did. I went to George and Barb’s home after my last flights, what I remember more about them, at the White House.

[Assistant] And after the flight, you guys went back to the White House, and then you also went to Congress.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So what are your recollections of the day beyond blowing up the package? Having lunch with George and Barb [Barbara Bush].

[User] Yes. Well, I guess we did. I guess we did. I went to George and Barb’s home after my last flights, what I remember more about them, at the White House.

[Assistant] And after the flight, you guys went back to the White House, and then you also went to Congress.

[User] We did. They had a special resolution that day of our Return to Flight. I’ve got that somewhere, too. Yes, so that was a big deal. I think the Congress was much more friendly about the program back then.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was the case?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, I guess we did. I guess we did. I went to George and Barb’s home after my last flights, what I remember more about them, at the White House.

[Assistant] And after the flight, you guys went back to the White House, and then you also went to Congress.

[User] We did. They had a special resolution that day of our Return to Flight. I’ve got that somewhere, too. Yes, so that was a big deal. I think the Congress was much more friendly about the program back then.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was the case?

[User] I don’t know. There were a lot higher expectations. It was a new program then, a new thing, not an old thing. Now it’s an old thing. People want to get off of it.

[Assistant] After this, you guys took some PR [Public Relations] tours to the various contractors and NASA Centers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. They had a special resolution that day of our Return to Flight. I’ve got that somewhere, too. Yes, so that was a big deal. I think the Congress was much more friendly about the program back then.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was the case?

[User] I don’t know. There were a lot higher expectations. It was a new program then, a new thing, not an old thing. Now it’s an old thing. People want to get off of it.

[Assistant] After this, you guys took some PR [Public Relations] tours to the various contractors and NASA Centers.

[User] Yes, I think we hit all the relevant Centers and the big contractors.

[Assistant] How were you welcomed back at JSC?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. There were a lot higher expectations. It was a new program then, a new thing, not an old thing. Now it’s an old thing. People want to get off of it.

[Assistant] After this, you guys took some PR [Public Relations] tours to the various contractors and NASA Centers.

[User] Yes, I think we hit all the relevant Centers and the big contractors.

[Assistant] How were you welcomed back at JSC?

[User] Big. It was a big welcome. Had a big party at the Gilruth, I remember. We wore our “Loud and Proud” shirts, which were the Hawaiian very garish kind of multicolored. We wore them on orbit and had one of our pictures taken with that, surfing. We were surfing in the middeck. So that was fun, and it was good to go around and thank people that had hung in there and got us back to flying.

[Assistant] I’m looking at my watch and I’m wondering, do you want to stop here and pick up next time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think we hit all the relevant Centers and the big contractors.

[Assistant] How were you welcomed back at JSC?

[User] Big. It was a big welcome. Had a big party at the Gilruth, I remember. We wore our “Loud and Proud” shirts, which were the Hawaiian very garish kind of multicolored. We wore them on orbit and had one of our pictures taken with that, surfing. We were surfing in the middeck. So that was fun, and it was good to go around and thank people that had hung in there and got us back to flying.

[Assistant] I’m looking at my watch and I’m wondering, do you want to stop here and pick up next time?

[User] We can press ahead. Let me make sure I haven’t made a commitment I’ve forgotten about.\n\n [tape pause]

[Assistant] So after this flight you were working as the Chief of Space Station Support Office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Big. It was a big welcome. Had a big party at the Gilruth, I remember. We wore our “Loud and Proud” shirts, which were the Hawaiian very garish kind of multicolored. We wore them on orbit and had one of our pictures taken with that, surfing. We were surfing in the middeck. So that was fun, and it was good to go around and thank people that had hung in there and got us back to flying.

[Assistant] I’m looking at my watch and I’m wondering, do you want to stop here and pick up next time?

[User] We can press ahead. Let me make sure I haven’t made a commitment I’ve forgotten about.\n\n [tape pause]

[Assistant] So after this flight you were working as the Chief of Space Station Support Office.

[User] Yes, I went back to that job.

[Assistant] Had things changed much?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We can press ahead. Let me make sure I haven’t made a commitment I’ve forgotten about.\n\n [tape pause]

[Assistant] So after this flight you were working as the Chief of Space Station Support Office.

[User] Yes, I went back to that job.

[Assistant] Had things changed much?

[User] There was more emphasis on it. As I said, somewhere around in there, the Center as a whole got serious about Station, and then there was a lot of battling—and there still is—about JSC’s piece versus Marshall’s piece [Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], versus Glenn’s piece [Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. So a big part of the job was getting involved in those inter-Center politics, which I’d never really been involved in before. So that was interesting times.

[Assistant] So you were working the various work packages?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I went back to that job.

[Assistant] Had things changed much?

[User] There was more emphasis on it. As I said, somewhere around in there, the Center as a whole got serious about Station, and then there was a lot of battling—and there still is—about JSC’s piece versus Marshall’s piece [Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], versus Glenn’s piece [Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. So a big part of the job was getting involved in those inter-Center politics, which I’d never really been involved in before. So that was interesting times.

[Assistant] So you were working the various work packages?

[User] Going to reviews at the work packages, and it was clear that John [W.] Aaron was the Center Director and very possessive about Work Package Two. That was our Center’s. Was it John Aaron? No. Aaron Cohen was the Center Director. John Aaron was the Work Package Two Manager. So there was always just this intense battle about whose work package had what and who was going to be the overall integrator of the whole thing. It ended up they had to bring it all to Houston eventually and put it under a prime contractor. That was actually after I left, they did that.

[Assistant] Why do you think there was such a heated battle over Space Station and which Centers would have what work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was more emphasis on it. As I said, somewhere around in there, the Center as a whole got serious about Station, and then there was a lot of battling—and there still is—about JSC’s piece versus Marshall’s piece [Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], versus Glenn’s piece [Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. So a big part of the job was getting involved in those inter-Center politics, which I’d never really been involved in before. So that was interesting times.

[Assistant] So you were working the various work packages?

[User] Going to reviews at the work packages, and it was clear that John [W.] Aaron was the Center Director and very possessive about Work Package Two. That was our Center’s. Was it John Aaron? No. Aaron Cohen was the Center Director. John Aaron was the Work Package Two Manager. So there was always just this intense battle about whose work package had what and who was going to be the overall integrator of the whole thing. It ended up they had to bring it all to Houston eventually and put it under a prime contractor. That was actually after I left, they did that.

[Assistant] Why do you think there was such a heated battle over Space Station and which Centers would have what work?

[User] Oh, it’s all politics and jobs and careers. You know the Center rivalry between Houston and Marshall goes back to Apollo. They never did really get along then. [Wernher] von Braun and Chris Kraft, the battle of the giants.

[Assistant] Were there any major changes made to the Space Station while you were working in this position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Going to reviews at the work packages, and it was clear that John [W.] Aaron was the Center Director and very possessive about Work Package Two. That was our Center’s. Was it John Aaron? No. Aaron Cohen was the Center Director. John Aaron was the Work Package Two Manager. So there was always just this intense battle about whose work package had what and who was going to be the overall integrator of the whole thing. It ended up they had to bring it all to Houston eventually and put it under a prime contractor. That was actually after I left, they did that.

[Assistant] Why do you think there was such a heated battle over Space Station and which Centers would have what work?

[User] Oh, it’s all politics and jobs and careers. You know the Center rivalry between Houston and Marshall goes back to Apollo. They never did really get along then. [Wernher] von Braun and Chris Kraft, the battle of the giants.

[Assistant] Were there any major changes made to the Space Station while you were working in this position?

[User] It kept getting smaller and smaller. We discarded the dual keel as being impractical. Baselined EVA. The big concern was how many spacewalks it took, and a big concern was there’s no way to do that many spacewalks. I think in the end we’ve probably done more than we said was undoable, but at that time people were very reluctant about it. When I was flying, you didn’t do a spacewalk unless it was really a very serious problem you were trying to fix, so I never got to do one. I got to train as the EVA crewman on two of those three flights, but I never got to do a real spacewalk. So that was a change. So, how long did I do that? I did it for about a year, and then I had to get back to training for my last flight.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about that last flight. A little different from your other missions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To the extent we actually fly it. You tell the computer what to do and it does it. And keep all the other systems running. Gardner and I were the main plumbers. We had a major toilet problem, and we had to get involved in that. But that was a fun flight.

[Assistant] Who were the two astronomers you were working with on that flight?

[User] So, NASA crew Mission Specialists, we had Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker and Jeff [Jeffrey A.] Hoffman, so Jeff was with me, and then we had two Payload Specialists that had helped develop the telescopes. Sam [Samuel T.] Durrance was on my team and Ron [Ronald A.] Parise was on the other team. This was ASTRO-1. It was actually also supposed to be the next flight after\n\n Challenger\n\n . It would have flown in, I guess, February of ’86 if it had been—so I like to say I flew both flights after\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[Assistant] Other than maneuvering the Orbiter, did you have any other duties?

[User] Yes, fixing the toilet.

[Assistant] How much time did that take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, NASA crew Mission Specialists, we had Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker and Jeff [Jeffrey A.] Hoffman, so Jeff was with me, and then we had two Payload Specialists that had helped develop the telescopes. Sam [Samuel T.] Durrance was on my team and Ron [Ronald A.] Parise was on the other team. This was ASTRO-1. It was actually also supposed to be the next flight after\n\n Challenger\n\n . It would have flown in, I guess, February of ’86 if it had been—so I like to say I flew both flights after\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[Assistant] Other than maneuvering the Orbiter, did you have any other duties?

[User] Yes, fixing the toilet.

[Assistant] How much time did that take?

[User] It was messy. It was plugged up, and we had to stow the waste from the waste tank into these plastic bags and seal them up. It was a mess. It was stinky. It was not a glamorous spaceflight. I don’t know, we spent half a day worrying about that. What else did I do? There wasn’t a lot to do. We had some medical experiments we did. That was mostly pre-flight and post-flight.

[Assistant] Did you do any SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, fixing the toilet.

[Assistant] How much time did that take?

[User] It was messy. It was plugged up, and we had to stow the waste from the waste tank into these plastic bags and seal them up. It was a mess. It was stinky. It was not a glamorous spaceflight. I don’t know, we spent half a day worrying about that. What else did I do? There wasn’t a lot to do. We had some medical experiments we did. That was mostly pre-flight and post-flight.

[Assistant] Did you do any SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]?

[User] I didn’t. I think that was on the flight. I think that was Ron Parise’s thing, actually. He was a HAM operator.

[Assistant] Did you guys take what folks had learned on 41-D? They also had a problem with the waste collection system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was messy. It was plugged up, and we had to stow the waste from the waste tank into these plastic bags and seal them up. It was a mess. It was stinky. It was not a glamorous spaceflight. I don’t know, we spent half a day worrying about that. What else did I do? There wasn’t a lot to do. We had some medical experiments we did. That was mostly pre-flight and post-flight.

[Assistant] Did you do any SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]?

[User] I didn’t. I think that was on the flight. I think that was Ron Parise’s thing, actually. He was a HAM operator.

[Assistant] Did you guys take what folks had learned on 41-D? They also had a problem with the waste collection system.

[User] No. So the normal way to empty these tanks was to dump it overboard in the vacuum of space, but to keep that nozzle from freezing up, there was a heater that had failed, so the nozzle was frozen shut, closed, so we couldn’t dump the waste tank, was the issue.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with people at Marshall or were you primarily just working as the Flight Engineer and then [Shuttle operator]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t. I think that was on the flight. I think that was Ron Parise’s thing, actually. He was a HAM operator.

[Assistant] Did you guys take what folks had learned on 41-D? They also had a problem with the waste collection system.

[User] No. So the normal way to empty these tanks was to dump it overboard in the vacuum of space, but to keep that nozzle from freezing up, there was a heater that had failed, so the nozzle was frozen shut, closed, so we couldn’t dump the waste tank, was the issue.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with people at Marshall or were you primarily just working as the Flight Engineer and then [Shuttle operator]?

[User] So I backed up the guys that were dealing with the instruments, but never directly at Marshall. The simulations, we were involved with Marshall. But I didn’t make a bunch of trips there, no.

[Assistant] Any Earth observations on board?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. So the normal way to empty these tanks was to dump it overboard in the vacuum of space, but to keep that nozzle from freezing up, there was a heater that had failed, so the nozzle was frozen shut, closed, so we couldn’t dump the waste tank, was the issue.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with people at Marshall or were you primarily just working as the Flight Engineer and then [Shuttle operator]?

[User] So I backed up the guys that were dealing with the instruments, but never directly at Marshall. The simulations, we were involved with Marshall. But I didn’t make a bunch of trips there, no.

[Assistant] Any Earth observations on board?

[User] Not that flight. We weren’t pointed at the Earth very much, which was a little unusual, because the other flights, unless you had a reason to be at some other attitude, your payload bay down at the Earth all the time. This one, we were pointed at the stars, so we could be, depending on the target, any attitude. So that was a little different.

[Assistant] You guys landed at night.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I backed up the guys that were dealing with the instruments, but never directly at Marshall. The simulations, we were involved with Marshall. But I didn’t make a bunch of trips there, no.

[Assistant] Any Earth observations on board?

[User] Not that flight. We weren’t pointed at the Earth very much, which was a little unusual, because the other flights, unless you had a reason to be at some other attitude, your payload bay down at the Earth all the time. This one, we were pointed at the stars, so we could be, depending on the target, any attitude. So that was a little different.

[Assistant] You guys landed at night.

[User] Landed at night at Edwards [Air Force Base, California]. That was interesting. So that entry was a little more colorful, I think, because it was in the dark. The landing itself was hard to see. So I hoped Vance was going to the right place.

[Assistant] Did you have in mind, when you were up for this last mission, that this would be your last flight, that you would be leaving NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that flight. We weren’t pointed at the Earth very much, which was a little unusual, because the other flights, unless you had a reason to be at some other attitude, your payload bay down at the Earth all the time. This one, we were pointed at the stars, so we could be, depending on the target, any attitude. So that was a little different.

[Assistant] You guys landed at night.

[User] Landed at night at Edwards [Air Force Base, California]. That was interesting. So that entry was a little more colorful, I think, because it was in the dark. The landing itself was hard to see. So I hoped Vance was going to the right place.

[Assistant] Did you have in mind, when you were up for this last mission, that this would be your last flight, that you would be leaving NASA?

[User] No, not so much. I was thinking about my career, and I had a desire to have a career in industry and do something else, but I also wanted to help build the Space Station, and so I said, “Well, I can’t wait forever to build the Space Station. If it looks like it’s going to be too much longer, I need to go ahead and try to get into industry.” As it turned out, I had an opportunity to join a small entrepreneurial company that was just getting started. I got a call from Chet [Chester M.] Lee, who was an old-time NASA guy, and he was the Vice President in SPACEHAB, and called me shortly after I got back from that flight. Actually, the first call was before I left. He left me a message saying, “Please call.” I returned the call after that flight and had some dialogue in that spring. Station was having trouble, and it looked like it was the right time, so I left the following June after that flight.

[Assistant] And since then you’ve gone on to work with a number of NASA contractors.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Landed at night at Edwards [Air Force Base, California]. That was interesting. So that entry was a little more colorful, I think, because it was in the dark. The landing itself was hard to see. So I hoped Vance was going to the right place.

[Assistant] Did you have in mind, when you were up for this last mission, that this would be your last flight, that you would be leaving NASA?

[User] No, not so much. I was thinking about my career, and I had a desire to have a career in industry and do something else, but I also wanted to help build the Space Station, and so I said, “Well, I can’t wait forever to build the Space Station. If it looks like it’s going to be too much longer, I need to go ahead and try to get into industry.” As it turned out, I had an opportunity to join a small entrepreneurial company that was just getting started. I got a call from Chet [Chester M.] Lee, who was an old-time NASA guy, and he was the Vice President in SPACEHAB, and called me shortly after I got back from that flight. Actually, the first call was before I left. He left me a message saying, “Please call.” I returned the call after that flight and had some dialogue in that spring. Station was having trouble, and it looked like it was the right time, so I left the following June after that flight.

[Assistant] And since then you’ve gone on to work with a number of NASA contractors.

[User] Just SPACEHAB and Boeing, actually.

[Assistant] So what did you do for SPACEHAB, and what are you currently doing for Boeing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just SPACEHAB and Boeing, actually.

[Assistant] So what did you do for SPACEHAB, and what are you currently doing for Boeing?

[User] So at SPACEHAB I was the Operations Director for our initial missions. We flew a module research addition to the middeck in the payload bay. It was never a primary mission; it was always tied to other missions. So I got involved in that in the early days of planning the mission and building the systems, so I was making sure the systems were built correctly so the astronauts could operate them and meet all NASA’s requirements.\n\n After a couple of years of that, I got involved in planning for the next series of missions which we did, which was to turn that research module into a cargo module to support NASA missions to the Russian Mir Station and later the International Space Station. I was involved in those concepts and developing all the systems. So I sort of got into systems development and program management, and that’s what I did in my last five years at SPACEHAB, I would say.\n\n And then came to Boeing a little over five years ago, where I’ve done business development, which is really trying to predict where NASA will need help, what kind of things they’ll need to carry out their missions, and position Boeing to be able to help them and, oh, by the way, get paid for it.

[Assistant] We have a couple of questions that we always like to ask people.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So at SPACEHAB I was the Operations Director for our initial missions. We flew a module research addition to the middeck in the payload bay. It was never a primary mission; it was always tied to other missions. So I got involved in that in the early days of planning the mission and building the systems, so I was making sure the systems were built correctly so the astronauts could operate them and meet all NASA’s requirements.\n\n After a couple of years of that, I got involved in planning for the next series of missions which we did, which was to turn that research module into a cargo module to support NASA missions to the Russian Mir Station and later the International Space Station. I was involved in those concepts and developing all the systems. So I sort of got into systems development and program management, and that’s what I did in my last five years at SPACEHAB, I would say.\n\n And then came to Boeing a little over five years ago, where I’ve done business development, which is really trying to predict where NASA will need help, what kind of things they’ll need to carry out their missions, and position Boeing to be able to help them and, oh, by the way, get paid for it.

[Assistant] We have a couple of questions that we always like to ask people.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency?

[User] Most challenging assignment? I’m trying to make sure I got the question right.

[Assistant] What do you think was your greatest challenge while working for the agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency?

[User] Most challenging assignment? I’m trying to make sure I got the question right.

[Assistant] What do you think was your greatest challenge while working for the agency?

[User] Well, the obvious one for me would be to say the Return to Flight mission, but from what we actually did, there really wasn’t much to that mission. We had to fly it successfully and, as Dan said, we couldn’t screw it up. But in terms of difficulty or complexity, it was really simpler than my first mission or my last mission. The first mission is always personally the big milestone. After that, it’s always, “What am I going to do to follow that one?” And my first mission was just incredible, with, you know, the ability to contribute personally, as we’ve described. That was the most rewarding part of our job at NASA. If not the most important milestone, certainly the most rewarding, because we really had an influence on the mission design. So I don’t know if that’s an answer that fills the square, but it’s some kind of answer.

[Assistant] Would you also say that that’s your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most challenging assignment? I’m trying to make sure I got the question right.

[Assistant] What do you think was your greatest challenge while working for the agency?

[User] Well, the obvious one for me would be to say the Return to Flight mission, but from what we actually did, there really wasn’t much to that mission. We had to fly it successfully and, as Dan said, we couldn’t screw it up. But in terms of difficulty or complexity, it was really simpler than my first mission or my last mission. The first mission is always personally the big milestone. After that, it’s always, “What am I going to do to follow that one?” And my first mission was just incredible, with, you know, the ability to contribute personally, as we’ve described. That was the most rewarding part of our job at NASA. If not the most important milestone, certainly the most rewarding, because we really had an influence on the mission design. So I don’t know if that’s an answer that fills the square, but it’s some kind of answer.

[Assistant] Would you also say that that’s your most significant accomplishment?

[User] In the years I worked for NASA? Yes, probably. Probably.

[Assistant] Do you think there’s anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to talk about today or you think we should talk about, any lessons learned that you want to pass on, or any anecdotes you want to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so. I won't claim any big part in that, but the 1978 class was the first astronaut class that I helped with the selection process. Of course, one of our going-in positions on that class was that we need to expand our horizons. We need to include women in the program, and how do we do that. We worked a lot of things to try to get a lot of women to apply, and to be sure that they were considered all along the way. We actually selected the first six women astronauts and proved that it was a good idea. It was a good idea. Back then, there were some women managers at the Center, but none in really high levels. That started to change, and I was just noticing the other day, everybody I work for is a woman, and I have no problems with that at all.

[Assistant] I was about to say now you have a brand-new boss that's not only female but a former astronaut [Ellen Ochoa].

[User] A former astronaut, yes. I knew her when she was starry-eyed and a branch chief out at the [NASA] Ames Research Center [Moffett Field, California], so it's really fun in that regard. They're all great.

[Assistant] We just want to go on record to thank you for being the wind beneath our wings because without you, we would not have been able to survive the last years, and we know that. We know that, and we're just grateful we didn't have to go to you too many times to help bail us out of any kind of problem, but we always knew that you were at the other end of the phone, so we really appreciate you being such a part—and not running from Mr. Abbey and telling him, "Oh, I'm not doing this project!"

[User] That wasn't an option.

[Assistant] We're glad. We're glad that that was a condition of employment for you, so we appreciate all the years together. We hope we have many more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A former astronaut, yes. I knew her when she was starry-eyed and a branch chief out at the [NASA] Ames Research Center [Moffett Field, California], so it's really fun in that regard. They're all great.

[Assistant] We just want to go on record to thank you for being the wind beneath our wings because without you, we would not have been able to survive the last years, and we know that. We know that, and we're just grateful we didn't have to go to you too many times to help bail us out of any kind of problem, but we always knew that you were at the other end of the phone, so we really appreciate you being such a part—and not running from Mr. Abbey and telling him, "Oh, I'm not doing this project!"

[User] That wasn't an option.

[Assistant] We're glad. We're glad that that was a condition of employment for you, so we appreciate all the years together. We hope we have many more.

[User] I love it. Yes, I absolutely love it.

[Assistant] Thank you for coming in this morning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That wasn't an option.

[Assistant] We're glad. We're glad that that was a condition of employment for you, so we appreciate all the years together. We hope we have many more.

[User] I love it. Yes, I absolutely love it.

[Assistant] Thank you for coming in this morning.

[User] Thank you for asking me to do the 1000th interview. That means a lot to me.

[Assistant] It means a lot to us. We appreciate it.