[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most—most everyone calls me “C. C.” I—the reason being is that the given name was hard to pronounce and people solved the problem by just saying “C. C.” And they didn’t have to worry about it.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, the given name was so hard to pronounce that it’s spelled “Caldwell” and pronounced “Cadwell.”

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] How’d that happen?

[User] Beats me. But my father has the same name, and it’s pronounced the same way.

[Assistant] Well, with your permission we’ll make it “C. C.” if you’ll make it “Roy” coming in this direction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Beats me. But my father has the same name, and it’s pronounced the same way.

[Assistant] Well, with your permission we’ll make it “C. C.” if you’ll make it “Roy” coming in this direction.

[User] All right. Fine.

[Assistant] Very good.

[User] Fine.

[Assistant] Let’s go back to the days of something they called the Space Task Group [STG]. Now somehow at that time the manned space program had a beginning. That you were a key man in that early design and test phase. Can you tell us how it all happened? How it all went together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —weren’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Before NASA?

[User] Yes. And then—

[Assistant] The [National] Advisory [Committee for] Aeronautics—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And then—

[Assistant] The [National] Advisory [Committee for] Aeronautics—

[User] —the transition was (when?) 1958 or something like that.

[Assistant] ’58, yeah.

[User] ’58, yeah. And—

[Assistant] And suddenly there was something new called NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —the transition was (when?) 1958 or something like that.

[Assistant] ’58, yeah.

[User] ’58, yeah. And—

[Assistant] And suddenly there was something new called NASA.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The National Aeronautics and Space—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ’58, yeah. And—

[Assistant] And suddenly there was something new called NASA.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The National Aeronautics and Space—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —Administration. Wasn’t that a grand name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The National Aeronautics and Space—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —Administration. Wasn’t that a grand name?

[User] Yeah, that was a grand name. Of course, we were very excited and also worried because the Air Force was in that game, too. And the politics, didn’t know for sure which way it was going to go. But the President finally decided it was going to be a civilian outfit.

[Assistant] And actually you married the military, in terms of getting some of those early boosters, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that was a grand name. Of course, we were very excited and also worried because the Air Force was in that game, too. And the politics, didn’t know for sure which way it was going to go. But the President finally decided it was going to be a civilian outfit.

[Assistant] And actually you married the military, in terms of getting some of those early boosters, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Both—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —Army and Air Force now that I’m remembering it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —Army and Air Force now that I’m remembering it.

[User] Yeah. And in fact, most of them are Army.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Army.

[Assistant] Well, let’s go back over those beginnings, because now we see the Space Task Group. Here’s this—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And in fact, most of them are Army.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Army.

[Assistant] Well, let’s go back over those beginnings, because now we see the Space Task Group. Here’s this—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —new organization. It’s NASA. You’ve just changed, and not your allegiance—but you’ve changed the flag under which you’re flying. And so now the Space Task Group is getting organized. There you were, at the very beginnings. What role did you play at that time, and how did it work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Army.

[Assistant] Well, let’s go back over those beginnings, because now we see the Space Task Group. Here’s this—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —new organization. It’s NASA. You’ve just changed, and not your allegiance—but you’ve changed the flag under which you’re flying. And so now the Space Task Group is getting organized. There you were, at the very beginnings. What role did you play at that time, and how did it work?

[User] I was a designer of the—of these test aircraft. And roughly the Agency was set up in an administrative department, the research department, and then what was called the Technical Services. Now all the people like the—the Fagets and the Gilruths were in the research department. I was in the technical services. It was our job to perform a service—an engineering service—for the research people. This included the shops, the instrument people, and all that sort of thing. And so, in a sense, I was brought from the organization I really worked for to help these people. So, that’s how I became connected with the organization.

[Assistant] Did they give you a title at that time? Because everybody in government service has a title.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a designer of the—of these test aircraft. And roughly the Agency was set up in an administrative department, the research department, and then what was called the Technical Services. Now all the people like the—the Fagets and the Gilruths were in the research department. I was in the technical services. It was our job to perform a service—an engineering service—for the research people. This included the shops, the instrument people, and all that sort of thing. And so, in a sense, I was brought from the organization I really worked for to help these people. So, that’s how I became connected with the organization.

[Assistant] Did they give you a title at that time? Because everybody in government service has a title.

[User] No, it wasn’t all that formal. I was a section head and I was called that, but—and there were a bunch of young fellows—I think one of the things that made it go, too, is that we were all young. All the older people were in those wind tunnels. And this was a new game, and fortunately it had a bunch of young people because you can’t teach the old guys a new game.\n\n And the wind tunnels, we—they were like the battleships. And you remember in the services how the battleship were all having a big fight with the aircraft world? And the old admirals didn’t like these airplanes; and the wind tunnel people didn’t like those of us with these pilotless aircraft doing the research work. And I think that had a lot to it. That it was young blood. We didn’t have enough sense to know that it was, you know—it was going to be a difficult thing to do.

[Assistant] It seems to me, though, C. C., that at that time something big happened. You had been working with pilotless aircraft, and suddenly the mission had to do with sending a human being—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —up into space. An unknown area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn’t all that formal. I was a section head and I was called that, but—and there were a bunch of young fellows—I think one of the things that made it go, too, is that we were all young. All the older people were in those wind tunnels. And this was a new game, and fortunately it had a bunch of young people because you can’t teach the old guys a new game.\n\n And the wind tunnels, we—they were like the battleships. And you remember in the services how the battleship were all having a big fight with the aircraft world? And the old admirals didn’t like these airplanes; and the wind tunnel people didn’t like those of us with these pilotless aircraft doing the research work. And I think that had a lot to it. That it was young blood. We didn’t have enough sense to know that it was, you know—it was going to be a difficult thing to do.

[Assistant] It seems to me, though, C. C., that at that time something big happened. You had been working with pilotless aircraft, and suddenly the mission had to do with sending a human being—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —up into space. An unknown area.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] An unknown ocean, if you will. And how did that beginning come together? How did you begin to design something for a human being?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —up into space. An unknown area.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] An unknown ocean, if you will. And how did that beginning come together? How did you begin to design something for a human being?

[User] I don’t know except that obviously, sooner or later, whatever you do, you’re going to put a man in the thing. No matter what it is. I’m sure the—it’s almost no point in doing things if a man is not involved sooner or later. And of course, by “man” I mean “mankind,” “humans,” or something like that. And I’m sure it must’ve first been speculated about monkeys, if for no other reason they’re smaller. They only weigh 12 or 15 lbs and—as opposed to 150 lbs or something like that.

[Assistant] A good idea, maybe, to test hardware on animals before you put human beings in the loop.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] An unknown ocean, if you will. And how did that beginning come together? How did you begin to design something for a human being?

[User] I don’t know except that obviously, sooner or later, whatever you do, you’re going to put a man in the thing. No matter what it is. I’m sure the—it’s almost no point in doing things if a man is not involved sooner or later. And of course, by “man” I mean “mankind,” “humans,” or something like that. And I’m sure it must’ve first been speculated about monkeys, if for no other reason they’re smaller. They only weigh 12 or 15 lbs and—as opposed to 150 lbs or something like that.

[Assistant] A good idea, maybe, to test hardware on animals before you put human beings in the loop.

[User] Yeah. In fact, there were a bunch of jokes about that in Mercury days. In fact, I think I remember making a cartoon that—something to the effect that—do you remember Sam? The monkey Sam? And he more or less just went along for the ride, but I wrote a memo and suggested that as long as he was there, if you could teach an astronaut to do this, you could sure as God teach a monkey to do this!

[Assistant] I noticed you said you wrote a memo. You have a lowly opinion of memoranda, don’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know except that obviously, sooner or later, whatever you do, you’re going to put a man in the thing. No matter what it is. I’m sure the—it’s almost no point in doing things if a man is not involved sooner or later. And of course, by “man” I mean “mankind,” “humans,” or something like that. And I’m sure it must’ve first been speculated about monkeys, if for no other reason they’re smaller. They only weigh 12 or 15 lbs and—as opposed to 150 lbs or something like that.

[Assistant] A good idea, maybe, to test hardware on animals before you put human beings in the loop.

[User] Yeah. In fact, there were a bunch of jokes about that in Mercury days. In fact, I think I remember making a cartoon that—something to the effect that—do you remember Sam? The monkey Sam? And he more or less just went along for the ride, but I wrote a memo and suggested that as long as he was there, if you could teach an astronaut to do this, you could sure as God teach a monkey to do this!

[Assistant] I noticed you said you wrote a memo. You have a lowly opinion of memoranda, don’t you?

[User] I know! Well, that one was kind of a joke. And they—the crew people didn’t take it as a joke at all.

[Assistant] I wonder why.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. In fact, there were a bunch of jokes about that in Mercury days. In fact, I think I remember making a cartoon that—something to the effect that—do you remember Sam? The monkey Sam? And he more or less just went along for the ride, but I wrote a memo and suggested that as long as he was there, if you could teach an astronaut to do this, you could sure as God teach a monkey to do this!

[Assistant] I noticed you said you wrote a memo. You have a lowly opinion of memoranda, don’t you?

[User] I know! Well, that one was kind of a joke. And they—the crew people didn’t take it as a joke at all.

[Assistant] I wonder why.

[User] Yeah. I wonder why.

[Assistant] Where did the name Project Mercury come from? Were you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know! Well, that one was kind of a joke. And they—the crew people didn’t take it as a joke at all.

[Assistant] I wonder why.

[User] Yeah. I wonder why.

[Assistant] Where did the name Project Mercury come from? Were you—

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] —do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I wonder why.

[Assistant] Where did the name Project Mercury come from? Were you—

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] —do you remember that?

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] Out of left field. Suddenly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] —do you remember that?

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] Out of left field. Suddenly.

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] The messenger of the gods.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] Out of left field. Suddenly.

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] The messenger of the gods.

[User] Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] With wings on his heels.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know.

[Assistant] The messenger of the gods.

[User] Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] With wings on his heels.

[User] Wings on his heels.

[Assistant] Well, then along came the astronauts. Seven test pilots were chosen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] With wings on his heels.

[User] Wings on his heels.

[Assistant] Well, then along came the astronauts. Seven test pilots were chosen.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] They came into the picture. By that time, where were you in the design phase, by the time that the men came into the loop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wings on his heels.

[Assistant] Well, then along came the astronauts. Seven test pilots were chosen.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] They came into the picture. By that time, where were you in the design phase, by the time that the men came into the loop?

[User] Well, let’s see. 1958. I have a drawing at home of the—a drawing I made of Mercury, the first performing model. We put together a little paper and explained the systems, and I made the overall configuration images. And that was dated June of 1958. And see, that’s just about when NACA became NASA. So, we were that far along before there was a NASA. And see, that was quite a bit before any astronauts came aboard.

[Assistant] What do you remember of that first design that you put together? Can you visualize it for us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] They came into the picture. By that time, where were you in the design phase, by the time that the men came into the loop?

[User] Well, let’s see. 1958. I have a drawing at home of the—a drawing I made of Mercury, the first performing model. We put together a little paper and explained the systems, and I made the overall configuration images. And that was dated June of 1958. And see, that’s just about when NACA became NASA. So, we were that far along before there was a NASA. And see, that was quite a bit before any astronauts came aboard.

[Assistant] What do you remember of that first design that you put together? Can you visualize it for us?

[User] Well, in the first place it was a pencil drawing. It was not made with a computer. I can tell you that much. And it was—I still have the original. For some reason, I kept it. And it’s remarkably like Mercury turned out to be. It’s a man in it. A retrorocket. It did not have an escape rocket system. (That came along later.) But otherwise, it’s the same parachute arrangement, and it’s the same shape.

[Assistant] Did it have a window?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let’s see. 1958. I have a drawing at home of the—a drawing I made of Mercury, the first performing model. We put together a little paper and explained the systems, and I made the overall configuration images. And that was dated June of 1958. And see, that’s just about when NACA became NASA. So, we were that far along before there was a NASA. And see, that was quite a bit before any astronauts came aboard.

[Assistant] What do you remember of that first design that you put together? Can you visualize it for us?

[User] Well, in the first place it was a pencil drawing. It was not made with a computer. I can tell you that much. And it was—I still have the original. For some reason, I kept it. And it’s remarkably like Mercury turned out to be. It’s a man in it. A retrorocket. It did not have an escape rocket system. (That came along later.) But otherwise, it’s the same parachute arrangement, and it’s the same shape.

[Assistant] Did it have a window?

[User] Yeah. It had a little window. Yeah. And, so, it’s not true that we didn’t put a—have a window in it.

[Assistant] The process of putting a spacecraft together has always been fascinating, and most people haven’t the slightest idea of how you do it. So, here’s your chance, C. C. Tell us: How did that Mercury spacecraft come into being?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I—they were probably as—they were probably in a state of shock, too, at the time. I’m not quite so sure they—they must’ve looked at this thing and thought, “My God! What have we gotten ourselves into?” But it was the first place, it—you know, it doesn’t look like much if you look at Mercury. It doesn’t look like much of anything.

[Assistant] Not if you’re used to flying high-performance jets.

[User] That’s right. But they didn’t come in roughshod and try to throw their weight around.

[Assistant] The image that has been presented in books and motion pictures gives somewhat of that idea. You’re contradicting it.

[User] Oh, that’s not so. They were sensible enough to know that different people have different skills, and their skill was flying airplanes. It was not designing airplanes. Not that they couldn’t—they could’ve learned to do that, too, I’m sure, because they were very intelligent, capable guys.

[Assistant] Well, Mercury of course was designed to put a man in orbit. But you also designed it so that it could be remotely controlled. You could eliminate the man from the system if you had to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. But they didn’t come in roughshod and try to throw their weight around.

[Assistant] The image that has been presented in books and motion pictures gives somewhat of that idea. You’re contradicting it.

[User] Oh, that’s not so. They were sensible enough to know that different people have different skills, and their skill was flying airplanes. It was not designing airplanes. Not that they couldn’t—they could’ve learned to do that, too, I’m sure, because they were very intelligent, capable guys.

[Assistant] Well, Mercury of course was designed to put a man in orbit. But you also designed it so that it could be remotely controlled. You could eliminate the man from the system if you had to.

[User] Yeah. That was a running battle throughout the program, that there were those of us that say, “Why should we waste 150 lbs and learn about all the safety of a man when with a quarter of that weight you could automate the system?” On the other hand, people would say, “Well, what’s the sense of doing all of this if the man is not involved? Sooner or later the man’s got to be there. ” Unfortunately the system got polarized. I don’t mean within the Mercury Program itself. But if you remember, NASA finally divided into two camps: the manned and the unmanned systems. And, you know, there’s a place for the merger of the two. There’s some things that men do wonderfully, and some things they’re not very good at. The instruments can do things quick, but some things they can’t do worth a damn. They can’t think, for one thing.

[Assistant] The Russians followed a different tact. They said, “Okay, we want this automatic control.” And to this day, they still have it—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that’s not so. They were sensible enough to know that different people have different skills, and their skill was flying airplanes. It was not designing airplanes. Not that they couldn’t—they could’ve learned to do that, too, I’m sure, because they were very intelligent, capable guys.

[Assistant] Well, Mercury of course was designed to put a man in orbit. But you also designed it so that it could be remotely controlled. You could eliminate the man from the system if you had to.

[User] Yeah. That was a running battle throughout the program, that there were those of us that say, “Why should we waste 150 lbs and learn about all the safety of a man when with a quarter of that weight you could automate the system?” On the other hand, people would say, “Well, what’s the sense of doing all of this if the man is not involved? Sooner or later the man’s got to be there. ” Unfortunately the system got polarized. I don’t mean within the Mercury Program itself. But if you remember, NASA finally divided into two camps: the manned and the unmanned systems. And, you know, there’s a place for the merger of the two. There’s some things that men do wonderfully, and some things they’re not very good at. The instruments can do things quick, but some things they can’t do worth a damn. They can’t think, for one thing.

[Assistant] The Russians followed a different tact. They said, “Okay, we want this automatic control.” And to this day, they still have it—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —as they fly their cargo vessels up there to replenish the Mir space station. Do you think, perhaps, that might’ve been a better path to follow in retrospect?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That was a running battle throughout the program, that there were those of us that say, “Why should we waste 150 lbs and learn about all the safety of a man when with a quarter of that weight you could automate the system?” On the other hand, people would say, “Well, what’s the sense of doing all of this if the man is not involved? Sooner or later the man’s got to be there. ” Unfortunately the system got polarized. I don’t mean within the Mercury Program itself. But if you remember, NASA finally divided into two camps: the manned and the unmanned systems. And, you know, there’s a place for the merger of the two. There’s some things that men do wonderfully, and some things they’re not very good at. The instruments can do things quick, but some things they can’t do worth a damn. They can’t think, for one thing.

[Assistant] The Russians followed a different tact. They said, “Okay, we want this automatic control.” And to this day, they still have it—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —as they fly their cargo vessels up there to replenish the Mir space station. Do you think, perhaps, that might’ve been a better path to follow in retrospect?

[User] Well, it would seem like it’s a sensible thing to do, since it—there are many missions that if—there really isn’t any point in having a man there if it’s simply a resupply mission. Or let’s say, to turn it into the reverse. It—it’s just a Shuttle type of thing going back and forth; it’s routine. And that’s one thing that the men don’t do very well. All the routine things.

[Assistant] So, there would be a place for unmanned cargo aircraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —as they fly their cargo vessels up there to replenish the Mir space station. Do you think, perhaps, that might’ve been a better path to follow in retrospect?

[User] Well, it would seem like it’s a sensible thing to do, since it—there are many missions that if—there really isn’t any point in having a man there if it’s simply a resupply mission. Or let’s say, to turn it into the reverse. It—it’s just a Shuttle type of thing going back and forth; it’s routine. And that’s one thing that the men don’t do very well. All the routine things.

[Assistant] So, there would be a place for unmanned cargo aircraft?

[User] Oh, I—yeah, I would think so. I would certainly think so. For instance, the docking activity. You know, it’s easy to automate the thing. The total navigation system. It’s just—well obviously we have all sorts of unmanned satellites doing all kind of things in space.

[Assistant] You were working with Max Faget, were you not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it would seem like it’s a sensible thing to do, since it—there are many missions that if—there really isn’t any point in having a man there if it’s simply a resupply mission. Or let’s say, to turn it into the reverse. It—it’s just a Shuttle type of thing going back and forth; it’s routine. And that’s one thing that the men don’t do very well. All the routine things.

[Assistant] So, there would be a place for unmanned cargo aircraft?

[User] Oh, I—yeah, I would think so. I would certainly think so. For instance, the docking activity. You know, it’s easy to automate the thing. The total navigation system. It’s just—well obviously we have all sorts of unmanned satellites doing all kind of things in space.

[Assistant] You were working with Max Faget, were you not?

[User] Yeah, oh, yes. Very closely.

[Assistant] He was designing. You were taking the design and putting it, as you say, into “artful form.” I understand that you even designed portholes (no windows) in the original Mercury. Is that right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I—yeah, I would think so. I would certainly think so. For instance, the docking activity. You know, it’s easy to automate the thing. The total navigation system. It’s just—well obviously we have all sorts of unmanned satellites doing all kind of things in space.

[Assistant] You were working with Max Faget, were you not?

[User] Yeah, oh, yes. Very closely.

[Assistant] He was designing. You were taking the design and putting it, as you say, into “artful form.” I understand that you even designed portholes (no windows) in the original Mercury. Is that right?

[User] It was a port, yeah. I suppose. I’m not quite sure the difference between a porthole and a window, except a porthole is generally small and a window is larger, somebody might say. But, and if you remember, Mercury ended up with a thing called a periscope. And it turned out to be not a very satisfactory device. But, you know, it was clear that the man; he’s got two eyes—the best instruments there ever were. Two—those two eyes. And to deny they—those eyes the—a port to look out is kind of silly. That same thing came up in Skylab years later. It’s that same argument.

[Assistant] A lot of navigation aids also called “stars.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, oh, yes. Very closely.

[Assistant] He was designing. You were taking the design and putting it, as you say, into “artful form.” I understand that you even designed portholes (no windows) in the original Mercury. Is that right?

[User] It was a port, yeah. I suppose. I’m not quite sure the difference between a porthole and a window, except a porthole is generally small and a window is larger, somebody might say. But, and if you remember, Mercury ended up with a thing called a periscope. And it turned out to be not a very satisfactory device. But, you know, it was clear that the man; he’s got two eyes—the best instruments there ever were. Two—those two eyes. And to deny they—those eyes the—a port to look out is kind of silly. That same thing came up in Skylab years later. It’s that same argument.

[Assistant] A lot of navigation aids also called “stars.”

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] If you can see them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a port, yeah. I suppose. I’m not quite sure the difference between a porthole and a window, except a porthole is generally small and a window is larger, somebody might say. But, and if you remember, Mercury ended up with a thing called a periscope. And it turned out to be not a very satisfactory device. But, you know, it was clear that the man; he’s got two eyes—the best instruments there ever were. Two—those two eyes. And to deny they—those eyes the—a port to look out is kind of silly. That same thing came up in Skylab years later. It’s that same argument.

[Assistant] A lot of navigation aids also called “stars.”

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] If you can see them.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] The Mercury interface between the capsule and the rocket was a big contribution. I understand that was a matter of some concern for you. Was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] If you can see them.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] The Mercury interface between the capsule and the rocket was a big contribution. I understand that was a matter of some concern for you. Was it?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] The Mercury interface between the capsule and the rocket was a big contribution. I understand that was a matter of some concern for you. Was it?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about it?

[User] Well, at that time the only candidate launch vehicles were things like the Redstone rocket and the Atlas, neither of—neither one were designed with the idea of putting the Mercury on the end of the thing. So, they were designed to their own particular requirements. We had a heatshield that was vital to the thing that really wasn’t the best thing in the world to be the interface with something. And, so it took a little finagling to make these two completely separately designed objects take the loads, make certain they separated when it was supposed to, and not separate when it wasn’t supposed to. And, so there was a lot of mechanical engineering involved in the thing that you might say had nothing to do with the spaceflight business itself.

[Assistant] It had a lot to do, though, with the way that thing flew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about it?

[User] Well, at that time the only candidate launch vehicles were things like the Redstone rocket and the Atlas, neither of—neither one were designed with the idea of putting the Mercury on the end of the thing. So, they were designed to their own particular requirements. We had a heatshield that was vital to the thing that really wasn’t the best thing in the world to be the interface with something. And, so it took a little finagling to make these two completely separately designed objects take the loads, make certain they separated when it was supposed to, and not separate when it wasn’t supposed to. And, so there was a lot of mechanical engineering involved in the thing that you might say had nothing to do with the spaceflight business itself.

[Assistant] It had a lot to do, though, with the way that thing flew.

[User] Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] How’d you come up with that design?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at that time the only candidate launch vehicles were things like the Redstone rocket and the Atlas, neither of—neither one were designed with the idea of putting the Mercury on the end of the thing. So, they were designed to their own particular requirements. We had a heatshield that was vital to the thing that really wasn’t the best thing in the world to be the interface with something. And, so it took a little finagling to make these two completely separately designed objects take the loads, make certain they separated when it was supposed to, and not separate when it wasn’t supposed to. And, so there was a lot of mechanical engineering involved in the thing that you might say had nothing to do with the spaceflight business itself.

[Assistant] It had a lot to do, though, with the way that thing flew.

[User] Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] How’d you come up with that design?

[User] Well, we had been, you know, in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division—had been doing that all the time in a smaller way. We had ordnance rockets and then we had the test vehicle that went on the front, and they had to be separated after they did their thing. And so, we had had a chance to explore a whole lot of different ideas. Some worked and some didn’t work.\n\n There was another thing that we found in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Divisions, that people didn’t know a hell of a lot about the aerodynamics of hypersonic flight. But we found out the hard way that things that had funny shapes—asymmetrical shapes—were more prone to having trouble than things that were more or less bodies of revolution. So, we stuck with those bodies of revolution for a long while until the Shuttle came along. If you notice, everything was essentially a body of revolution. And there were a lot of us that were very much worried about the Shuttle, since it was so clearly not a body of revolution.

[Assistant] Obviously, we’re going to get to the Shuttle—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] How’d you come up with that design?

[User] Well, we had been, you know, in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division—had been doing that all the time in a smaller way. We had ordnance rockets and then we had the test vehicle that went on the front, and they had to be separated after they did their thing. And so, we had had a chance to explore a whole lot of different ideas. Some worked and some didn’t work.\n\n There was another thing that we found in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Divisions, that people didn’t know a hell of a lot about the aerodynamics of hypersonic flight. But we found out the hard way that things that had funny shapes—asymmetrical shapes—were more prone to having trouble than things that were more or less bodies of revolution. So, we stuck with those bodies of revolution for a long while until the Shuttle came along. If you notice, everything was essentially a body of revolution. And there were a lot of us that were very much worried about the Shuttle, since it was so clearly not a body of revolution.

[Assistant] Obviously, we’re going to get to the Shuttle—

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] —just a little bit later. Right now, let’s stay with Mercury for just—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had been, you know, in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division—had been doing that all the time in a smaller way. We had ordnance rockets and then we had the test vehicle that went on the front, and they had to be separated after they did their thing. And so, we had had a chance to explore a whole lot of different ideas. Some worked and some didn’t work.\n\n There was another thing that we found in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Divisions, that people didn’t know a hell of a lot about the aerodynamics of hypersonic flight. But we found out the hard way that things that had funny shapes—asymmetrical shapes—were more prone to having trouble than things that were more or less bodies of revolution. So, we stuck with those bodies of revolution for a long while until the Shuttle came along. If you notice, everything was essentially a body of revolution. And there were a lot of us that were very much worried about the Shuttle, since it was so clearly not a body of revolution.

[Assistant] Obviously, we’re going to get to the Shuttle—

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] —just a little bit later. Right now, let’s stay with Mercury for just—

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —a bit because here you had a spacecraft that finally was conceived and you flew it on a Redstone rocket, suborbital, testing your wings, as it were, even though there were no wings on that spacecraft obviously. Did the spacecraft evolve at all during the Mercury days? Or did it pretty much remain in the same design for all the flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] —just a little bit later. Right now, let’s stay with Mercury for just—

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —a bit because here you had a spacecraft that finally was conceived and you flew it on a Redstone rocket, suborbital, testing your wings, as it were, even though there were no wings on that spacecraft obviously. Did the spacecraft evolve at all during the Mercury days? Or did it pretty much remain in the same design for all the flights?

[User] Initially, it changed a little bit. But by the time it got to actually being flown on the Redstone, things had settled down. And there were very few changes of consequence then; that is, you couldn’t look at it and see any great difference. There had been problems—there was a series called the Little Joe’s and the Big Joe’s, and they were boiler—called boilerplate things designed just to test certain performance characteristics. Now those flights, and they were unmanned of course, suborbital, but they revealed a number of surprises. And that was—it was very important because we caught the thing at a stage of design that you could change the—you might say, the production article without a great deal of cost and trouble. And of course, there was no man involved in it either.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate that point for us just a bit, what you discovered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Whether this blunt body shape would work. But, do you remember there was a Big Joe flight that it did not separate from the Atlas initially? What happened was that the Atlas continued to thrust when it was—not much, but just enough that when it—Mercury tried to separate, the Atlas kept pushing. And the Mercury spacecraft used up all of its control gases trying to turn itself around, to enter the—to enter the atmosphere in the right direction. But it was still being pushed by this great, monstrous Atlas. And it wasted all of its gas trying to turn the whole system around, and it had ran out of gas; and finally the Atlas gave up and fell off, too.\n\n But now it was—Mercury was heading in the wrong direction to come in with no control system to turn it around. But it was inherently stable in the other direction, and it turned itself around. Now, we were absolutely delighted at that because here was—it…unexpectedly…[exhibited greater one-]point stability than anyone had thought. Now that—you know, that’s a very satisfying feeling to know that if you had—if you ran out of all your control gases, the damn thing was going to turn around in the right direction anyway.

[Assistant] Wasn’t that the real reason for the ballistic reentry itself, and the shape that you came up with?

[User] Well, it—well, the real shape was to take care of the heating problem. Now, it was theorized that it would be stable in this position also. But there were a lot of people that were—would not have thought you could become 180 deg wrong and then turn yourself around. But it did.

[Assistant] Like “I shot an arrow in the air. It came back to Earth, I know not where. But it came back to Earth.”

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] That’s really the point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it—well, the real shape was to take care of the heating problem. Now, it was theorized that it would be stable in this position also. But there were a lot of people that were—would not have thought you could become 180 deg wrong and then turn yourself around. But it did.

[Assistant] Like “I shot an arrow in the air. It came back to Earth, I know not where. But it came back to Earth.”

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] That’s really the point.

[User] And they come down point first because you’ve got feathers on the back.

[Assistant] Well, finally with Mercury then you realized you had a machine that could take men into space. There was something else that had to be learned. How would the man react inside the spacecraft? Did you follow those flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] That’s really the point.

[User] And they come down point first because you’ve got feathers on the back.

[Assistant] Well, finally with Mercury then you realized you had a machine that could take men into space. There was something else that had to be learned. How would the man react inside the spacecraft? Did you follow those flights?

[User] Well, of course there was just a small group of us; so everybody paid attention to everything. But that really wasn’t my bag. I didn’t design life support systems. I wasn’t—I was interested in the physiology of the man simply because it was a mechanical system as far as I was concerned and he had to be supported mechanically. And so, I was interested in the body structure and how the couch should be made and that sort of thing. And, of course, the man had to be positioned properly in the spacecraft.

[Assistant] If I remember correctly, C. C., as Mercury really began, somewhere shortly inside that envelope the President announced after [Alan B.] Shepard’s [Jr.] flight that men were going to go to the Moon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they come down point first because you’ve got feathers on the back.

[Assistant] Well, finally with Mercury then you realized you had a machine that could take men into space. There was something else that had to be learned. How would the man react inside the spacecraft? Did you follow those flights?

[User] Well, of course there was just a small group of us; so everybody paid attention to everything. But that really wasn’t my bag. I didn’t design life support systems. I wasn’t—I was interested in the physiology of the man simply because it was a mechanical system as far as I was concerned and he had to be supported mechanically. And so, I was interested in the body structure and how the couch should be made and that sort of thing. And, of course, the man had to be positioned properly in the spacecraft.

[Assistant] If I remember correctly, C. C., as Mercury really began, somewhere shortly inside that envelope the President announced after [Alan B.] Shepard’s [Jr.] flight that men were going to go to the Moon.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I imagine that created a few changes back at Langley, didn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course there was just a small group of us; so everybody paid attention to everything. But that really wasn’t my bag. I didn’t design life support systems. I wasn’t—I was interested in the physiology of the man simply because it was a mechanical system as far as I was concerned and he had to be supported mechanically. And so, I was interested in the body structure and how the couch should be made and that sort of thing. And, of course, the man had to be positioned properly in the spacecraft.

[Assistant] If I remember correctly, C. C., as Mercury really began, somewhere shortly inside that envelope the President announced after [Alan B.] Shepard’s [Jr.] flight that men were going to go to the Moon.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I imagine that created a few changes back at Langley, didn’t it?

[User] It sure as hell did. You know, it’s one thing to sit around a—the table at noontime and play Pinochle and bullshit. It’s another thing for the President of the United States to all of a sudden tell the world what you’re bullshitting about! You know, “Now, put your money where your mouth is” is what that would be.

[Assistant] How did you accept that challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I imagine that created a few changes back at Langley, didn’t it?

[User] It sure as hell did. You know, it’s one thing to sit around a—the table at noontime and play Pinochle and bullshit. It’s another thing for the President of the United States to all of a sudden tell the world what you’re bullshitting about! You know, “Now, put your money where your mouth is” is what that would be.

[Assistant] How did you accept that challenge?

[User] I don’t know. I—if I knew then what I know now, I’d think I’d have gone to Australia or somewhere and got the hell out of there. But I don’t know.

[Assistant] But you didn’t.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It sure as hell did. You know, it’s one thing to sit around a—the table at noontime and play Pinochle and bullshit. It’s another thing for the President of the United States to all of a sudden tell the world what you’re bullshitting about! You know, “Now, put your money where your mouth is” is what that would be.

[Assistant] How did you accept that challenge?

[User] I don’t know. I—if I knew then what I know now, I’d think I’d have gone to Australia or somewhere and got the hell out of there. But I don’t know.

[Assistant] But you didn’t.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You went ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You went ahead.

[User] I don’t know. I think that’s a good thing about being young. You’re not—nothing frightens you much when you’re young. You know, you can lick the world.

[Assistant] Anything’s possible.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in this case, it certainly was possible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I think that’s a good thing about being young. You’re not—nothing frightens you much when you’re young. You know, you can lick the world.

[Assistant] Anything’s possible.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in this case, it certainly was possible.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] How soon did you begin designing on Gemini, coming out of Mercury?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in this case, it certainly was possible.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] How soon did you begin designing on Gemini, coming out of Mercury?

[User] I personally didn’t have much to do with Gemini. It—Gemini was really an outgrowth of Mercury. I mean, it’s an extension of Mercury. McDonnell was already set up, and the people that were working on it. And they had learned a lot of things about spacecraft and Mercury and—the organization that did Mercury was all in place. I really never had much to do with things once they got into the factory. Once a job would, say, be turned over to McDonnell Douglas or whoever—

[Assistant] Wasn’t the big thing, though, the big difference (from your point of view) the fact that Gemini was designed to dock with other objects in space. And that’s where you came aboard and said, “Okay, let me go to work.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] How soon did you begin designing on Gemini, coming out of Mercury?

[User] I personally didn’t have much to do with Gemini. It—Gemini was really an outgrowth of Mercury. I mean, it’s an extension of Mercury. McDonnell was already set up, and the people that were working on it. And they had learned a lot of things about spacecraft and Mercury and—the organization that did Mercury was all in place. I really never had much to do with things once they got into the factory. Once a job would, say, be turned over to McDonnell Douglas or whoever—

[Assistant] Wasn’t the big thing, though, the big difference (from your point of view) the fact that Gemini was designed to dock with other objects in space. And that’s where you came aboard and said, “Okay, let me go to work.”

[User] Yeah, except even then, I—I’m surprised now in telling you this, but—I’m surprised that I was not involved, didn’t involve myself, in that. I think the reason was that we was—had started Apollo. You see, we were working on Apollo before Alan Shepard took his flight. And so, as far as I was concerned, I was deep into Apollo when Gemini was being developed. Now, as it turned out, I wish I had paid some more attention; because some things happened in Apollo that were led by Gemini. For instance, the docking system had a lot to be desired. And it ended up that Apollo inherited some of the concepts from Gemini, which was not a fundamental—not a very good system. And it was later on corrected in Apollo-Soyuz. But that’s another story.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll get to that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I personally didn’t have much to do with Gemini. It—Gemini was really an outgrowth of Mercury. I mean, it’s an extension of Mercury. McDonnell was already set up, and the people that were working on it. And they had learned a lot of things about spacecraft and Mercury and—the organization that did Mercury was all in place. I really never had much to do with things once they got into the factory. Once a job would, say, be turned over to McDonnell Douglas or whoever—

[Assistant] Wasn’t the big thing, though, the big difference (from your point of view) the fact that Gemini was designed to dock with other objects in space. And that’s where you came aboard and said, “Okay, let me go to work.”

[User] Yeah, except even then, I—I’m surprised now in telling you this, but—I’m surprised that I was not involved, didn’t involve myself, in that. I think the reason was that we was—had started Apollo. You see, we were working on Apollo before Alan Shepard took his flight. And so, as far as I was concerned, I was deep into Apollo when Gemini was being developed. Now, as it turned out, I wish I had paid some more attention; because some things happened in Apollo that were led by Gemini. For instance, the docking system had a lot to be desired. And it ended up that Apollo inherited some of the concepts from Gemini, which was not a fundamental—not a very good system. And it was later on corrected in Apollo-Soyuz. But that’s another story.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll get to that—

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] —part of the story, too, I hope. Didn’t you at one time even consider a paraglider landing system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, except even then, I—I’m surprised now in telling you this, but—I’m surprised that I was not involved, didn’t involve myself, in that. I think the reason was that we was—had started Apollo. You see, we were working on Apollo before Alan Shepard took his flight. And so, as far as I was concerned, I was deep into Apollo when Gemini was being developed. Now, as it turned out, I wish I had paid some more attention; because some things happened in Apollo that were led by Gemini. For instance, the docking system had a lot to be desired. And it ended up that Apollo inherited some of the concepts from Gemini, which was not a fundamental—not a very good system. And it was later on corrected in Apollo-Soyuz. But that’s another story.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll get to that—

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] —part of the story, too, I hope. Didn’t you at one time even consider a paraglider landing system?

[User] Yes, yes, yes, yes! And it just—there were so many troubles with that thing, just every time one turned around. But I really shouldn’t talk about Gemini because I didn’t have a, you know—a hell of a lot to do with Gemini.

[Assistant] Stay with the chutes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] —part of the story, too, I hope. Didn’t you at one time even consider a paraglider landing system?

[User] Yes, yes, yes, yes! And it just—there were so many troubles with that thing, just every time one turned around. But I really shouldn’t talk about Gemini because I didn’t have a, you know—a hell of a lot to do with Gemini.

[Assistant] Stay with the chutes.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. Well, how did all this preliminary thinking affect the planning for Apollo? Now let’s see. I notice here you once said, “In designing Apollo, the engineers and designers would come to what seemed to be a completely rational design, but it would’ve been achieved in a completely irrational manner.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, yes, yes! And it just—there were so many troubles with that thing, just every time one turned around. But I really shouldn’t talk about Gemini because I didn’t have a, you know—a hell of a lot to do with Gemini.

[Assistant] Stay with the chutes.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. Well, how did all this preliminary thinking affect the planning for Apollo? Now let’s see. I notice here you once said, “In designing Apollo, the engineers and designers would come to what seemed to be a completely rational design, but it would’ve been achieved in a completely irrational manner.”

[User] Well—.

[Assistant] I love that quote. Is that true?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. Well, how did all this preliminary thinking affect the planning for Apollo? Now let’s see. I notice here you once said, “In designing Apollo, the engineers and designers would come to what seemed to be a completely rational design, but it would’ve been achieved in a completely irrational manner.”

[User] Well—.

[Assistant] I love that quote. Is that true?

[User] I—it is true. It’s almost like a—what’s the old story, if you give enough monkeys enough pianos, and one of them will end up playing The Blue Danube or something like that? I don’t know what it is. I think it’s—I—the first place, for some reason or another we were not antagonists. That’s suggested a lot of people that work together are antagonistic, and they are. Somehow or another, there was an exchange of ideas without the feeling that “I have got to win my argument.” And that people would listen to what someone else said; and then think about it and say, “Well, maybe that’s not a bad idea after all.” And I think that had a hell of a lot.\n\n Now that’s not really a rational process, I suppose. You know, people would—I’m not doing this very well. If I could do this very well, we would do everything right. You know that statement was—has been made about juries. Oftentimes I’ve heard lawyers say that, that a bunch of the most ill-informed people that do nothing but argue and fume and fuss and have got different points of view, and they’ve already made up their minds before they go—somehow, 9 times out of 10, they come up with a reasonable verdict. Twelve people. You say, “Well, how in the hell did they ever do it?” But they seem to do it.

[Assistant] Well, in this case you had a big mix them and match them. You had the von Braun team in Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama]—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well—.

[Assistant] I love that quote. Is that true?

[User] I—it is true. It’s almost like a—what’s the old story, if you give enough monkeys enough pianos, and one of them will end up playing The Blue Danube or something like that? I don’t know what it is. I think it’s—I—the first place, for some reason or another we were not antagonists. That’s suggested a lot of people that work together are antagonistic, and they are. Somehow or another, there was an exchange of ideas without the feeling that “I have got to win my argument.” And that people would listen to what someone else said; and then think about it and say, “Well, maybe that’s not a bad idea after all.” And I think that had a hell of a lot.\n\n Now that’s not really a rational process, I suppose. You know, people would—I’m not doing this very well. If I could do this very well, we would do everything right. You know that statement was—has been made about juries. Oftentimes I’ve heard lawyers say that, that a bunch of the most ill-informed people that do nothing but argue and fume and fuss and have got different points of view, and they’ve already made up their minds before they go—somehow, 9 times out of 10, they come up with a reasonable verdict. Twelve people. You say, “Well, how in the hell did they ever do it?” But they seem to do it.

[Assistant] Well, in this case you had a big mix them and match them. You had the von Braun team in Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama]—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —you had your team—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I—it is true. It’s almost like a—what’s the old story, if you give enough monkeys enough pianos, and one of them will end up playing The Blue Danube or something like that? I don’t know what it is. I think it’s—I—the first place, for some reason or another we were not antagonists. That’s suggested a lot of people that work together are antagonistic, and they are. Somehow or another, there was an exchange of ideas without the feeling that “I have got to win my argument.” And that people would listen to what someone else said; and then think about it and say, “Well, maybe that’s not a bad idea after all.” And I think that had a hell of a lot.\n\n Now that’s not really a rational process, I suppose. You know, people would—I’m not doing this very well. If I could do this very well, we would do everything right. You know that statement was—has been made about juries. Oftentimes I’ve heard lawyers say that, that a bunch of the most ill-informed people that do nothing but argue and fume and fuss and have got different points of view, and they’ve already made up their minds before they go—somehow, 9 times out of 10, they come up with a reasonable verdict. Twelve people. You say, “Well, how in the hell did they ever do it?” But they seem to do it.

[Assistant] Well, in this case you had a big mix them and match them. You had the von Braun team in Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama]—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —you had your team—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —which was here in Houston by that time. No, let’s see. We’re still back in the Gemini days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —you had your team—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —which was here in Houston by that time. No, let’s see. We’re still back in the Gemini days.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You haven’t even come to Houston.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —which was here in Houston by that time. No, let’s see. We’re still back in the Gemini days.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You haven’t even come to Houston.

[User] No. That’s right.

[Assistant] You were still—where you were during that period? At Langley, or getting ready to move to here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You haven’t even come to Houston.

[User] No. That’s right.

[Assistant] You were still—where you were during that period? At Langley, or getting ready to move to here?

[User] Getting ready to move to here. In fact, I—Gemini was really got going after we moved here I think.

[Assistant] And Apollo, of course, is—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That’s right.

[Assistant] You were still—where you were during that period? At Langley, or getting ready to move to here?

[User] Getting ready to move to here. In fact, I—Gemini was really got going after we moved here I think.

[Assistant] And Apollo, of course, is—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —is really—the planning phases for Apollo started coming together after the move to Houston. Is that what you’re saying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting ready to move to here. In fact, I—Gemini was really got going after we moved here I think.

[Assistant] And Apollo, of course, is—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —is really—the planning phases for Apollo started coming together after the move to Houston. Is that what you’re saying?

[User] Yeah. We had a letter contract with North American before we left Virginia.

[Assistant] Why North American instead of Rockwell? I mean, instead of McDonnell Douglas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —is really—the planning phases for Apollo started coming together after the move to Houston. Is that what you’re saying?

[User] Yeah. We had a letter contract with North American before we left Virginia.

[Assistant] Why North American instead of Rockwell? I mean, instead of McDonnell Douglas?

[User] Well, McDonnell Douglas, first place they had Gemini. And Mercury was still going. Like I said, you know, all this happened before Alan Shepard took his first flight.

[Assistant] So, a new contractor who’s—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, a new contractor.

[Assistant] —obviously—

[User] Beside, I remember doing the evaluation of the Apollo proposals all the many companies put in. Alan Shepard was on this team I was chairing. And he wouldn’t come to the meetings. And I said, “You know,” I said, “come on, Alan.” I said, “I know you—I know that you’ve got the hots for North American, but, you know, let’s give this a proper try and score them like everybody else.” He says, “It’s hopeless. They’re going to win anyway.” And I said, “Well, we’ve got to go through the—I don’t know that you’re right, but in any case nobody asked us to just give an offhand opinion. They want us to evaluate the whole damn thing.” Well, anyway, it turns out Alan was right. And later on, I said, “How—why were you so damn sure?” He said, “Well, I reasoned that they were just flying high, wide, and handsome with a—” you know, they’d done some supersonic flights and all. Hypersonic flights with the—what is that?

[Assistant] X-15.

[User] X-15, yeah. And they were on the West Coast. The West Coast needed some money. They were—it was about a disaster area at that time. Convair was folding up and everybody. And he said, “You know, anybody can figure out what’s going to happen.” He said, “It don’tmake any difference how we score this. It’s going to be somebody else.” Now I daresay—say in hindsight, that’s probably as good a way to decide something as any other way.

[Assistant] But as you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Beside, I remember doing the evaluation of the Apollo proposals all the many companies put in. Alan Shepard was on this team I was chairing. And he wouldn’t come to the meetings. And I said, “You know,” I said, “come on, Alan.” I said, “I know you—I know that you’ve got the hots for North American, but, you know, let’s give this a proper try and score them like everybody else.” He says, “It’s hopeless. They’re going to win anyway.” And I said, “Well, we’ve got to go through the—I don’t know that you’re right, but in any case nobody asked us to just give an offhand opinion. They want us to evaluate the whole damn thing.” Well, anyway, it turns out Alan was right. And later on, I said, “How—why were you so damn sure?” He said, “Well, I reasoned that they were just flying high, wide, and handsome with a—” you know, they’d done some supersonic flights and all. Hypersonic flights with the—what is that?

[Assistant] X-15.

[User] X-15, yeah. And they were on the West Coast. The West Coast needed some money. They were—it was about a disaster area at that time. Convair was folding up and everybody. And he said, “You know, anybody can figure out what’s going to happen.” He said, “It don’tmake any difference how we score this. It’s going to be somebody else.” Now I daresay—say in hindsight, that’s probably as good a way to decide something as any other way.

[Assistant] But as you—

[User] Anyway, that’s how—that’s how—apparently that’s how the North American got their job.

[Assistant] —as you began to look at Apollo, here you were mixing the Centers—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] X-15, yeah. And they were on the West Coast. The West Coast needed some money. They were—it was about a disaster area at that time. Convair was folding up and everybody. And he said, “You know, anybody can figure out what’s going to happen.” He said, “It don’tmake any difference how we score this. It’s going to be somebody else.” Now I daresay—say in hindsight, that’s probably as good a way to decide something as any other way.

[Assistant] But as you—

[User] Anyway, that’s how—that’s how—apparently that’s how the North American got their job.

[Assistant] —as you began to look at Apollo, here you were mixing the Centers—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —coming into a whole new arena. For the first time you weren’t flying on a missile anymore. You were flying on a rocket designed to fly as a rocket.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like a Tower of Babel.

[Assistant] —a little difficult, isn’t it?

[User] Yeah. You can’t even—you can’t even do this when you—when you’re all in the same country. How in the hell are you going to do it?

[Assistant] And yet as I remember that era, you had a tremendous spokesman as well as a powerful engineer. His name was von Braun.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with him at all? Or was he on the other side of that big piece of plywood you put up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You can’t even—you can’t even do this when you—when you’re all in the same country. How in the hell are you going to do it?

[Assistant] And yet as I remember that era, you had a tremendous spokesman as well as a powerful engineer. His name was von Braun.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with him at all? Or was he on the other side of that big piece of plywood you put up?

[User] Well, he was on the other side as far as I was concerned. But obviously, we—it—at some level in the NASA hierarchy that piece of plywood didn’t exist. But I just meant engineering.

[Assistant] The mix was upstairs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was on the other side as far as I was concerned. But obviously, we—it—at some level in the NASA hierarchy that piece of plywood didn’t exist. But I just meant engineering.

[Assistant] The mix was upstairs?

[User] He was a remarkable man. I didn’t know him personally very much, but I had come in contact and seen what he did. If you remember, a lot of people said, “Well, he’s just a silver-tongued devil and makes a great spokesman and, you know, he’s managed to keep his German accent after he’s been here 40 years,” and all this kind of thing. But I can remember on one occasion I’d gone to Marshall to discuss something that—we were at loggerheads about something. And we talked and talked and talked. And we argued. And neither one of us wanted to yield a point of—it’s almost like we didn’t even want to solve the damn problem. I mean, we didn’t want to agree. And we got back together after lunch. And all of a sudden von Braun walks in. And he said, “How are you guys doing?” And we had to admit that we were kind of stalled out. And he said, “Well, what’s the problem?” And somehow or another we told him the problem. He said, “Well, the solution is simple. Do this and this and this.” And we agreed that it was a very reasonable suggestion he made, and so we settled it—he settled the damn thing in about 15 minutes, and we had been spending—we had spent the whole damn morning arguing about it! So—

[Assistant] You—

[User] —so he was not just a figurehead.

[Assistant] He was an engineer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a remarkable man. I didn’t know him personally very much, but I had come in contact and seen what he did. If you remember, a lot of people said, “Well, he’s just a silver-tongued devil and makes a great spokesman and, you know, he’s managed to keep his German accent after he’s been here 40 years,” and all this kind of thing. But I can remember on one occasion I’d gone to Marshall to discuss something that—we were at loggerheads about something. And we talked and talked and talked. And we argued. And neither one of us wanted to yield a point of—it’s almost like we didn’t even want to solve the damn problem. I mean, we didn’t want to agree. And we got back together after lunch. And all of a sudden von Braun walks in. And he said, “How are you guys doing?” And we had to admit that we were kind of stalled out. And he said, “Well, what’s the problem?” And somehow or another we told him the problem. He said, “Well, the solution is simple. Do this and this and this.” And we agreed that it was a very reasonable suggestion he made, and so we settled it—he settled the damn thing in about 15 minutes, and we had been spending—we had spent the whole damn morning arguing about it! So—

[Assistant] You—

[User] —so he was not just a figurehead.

[Assistant] He was an engineer.

[User] He was an engineer, and a good one.

[Assistant] A very good engineer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —so he was not just a figurehead.

[Assistant] He was an engineer.

[User] He was an engineer, and a good one.

[Assistant] A very good engineer.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Got speed. All right. Now we’re going to pick up again. And at this point, we’ve been talking [about] Dr. von Braun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was an engineer, and a good one.

[Assistant] A very good engineer.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Got speed. All right. Now we’re going to pick up again. And at this point, we’ve been talking [about] Dr. von Braun.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you called him “Wernher.” We all did. But he was “Dr. von Braun,” and he was a militant leader of his people. He was one of the influences at that time over on the propulsion side of the house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Got speed. All right. Now we’re going to pick up again. And at this point, we’ve been talking [about] Dr. von Braun.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you called him “Wernher.” We all did. But he was “Dr. von Braun,” and he was a militant leader of his people. He was one of the influences at that time over on the propulsion side of the house.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about some of the people around you, who were building the spacecraft and the roles that they played. Can we do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] —didn’t he?

[User] But somehow or another, he didn’t seek to—didn’t seek to stand in front of a lot of people and say a lot. But people listened when he said something. And he waited a while to speak; and then when he said something it was pretty clear that he knew what the hell he was talking about. And what’s more, you’d better damn well do what he was talking about!

[Assistant] Would you say that essentially he was the boss?

[User] He was indeed the boss! There was no question about who was the boss. And you can’t always say that about some things. But he did not come out and make great speeches and say this. But he—I remember once—this is kind of a personal thing about myself with him. I had grown a beard. Don’t ask me why, but I had. It was all the rage at the time. It was a great, bushy thing. And we were in the cafeteria one day, and he said, “Why don’t you—why don’t you shave off that beard?” (It was clear he didn’t like it.) And I said, “Well, I would if I had a good reason to do it.” And he said, “I’ll give you a good reason. You go home and shave that goddamn thing off!” I went home and shaved it off.

[Assistant] Hard to imagine Bob Gilruth—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But somehow or another, he didn’t seek to—didn’t seek to stand in front of a lot of people and say a lot. But people listened when he said something. And he waited a while to speak; and then when he said something it was pretty clear that he knew what the hell he was talking about. And what’s more, you’d better damn well do what he was talking about!

[Assistant] Would you say that essentially he was the boss?

[User] He was indeed the boss! There was no question about who was the boss. And you can’t always say that about some things. But he did not come out and make great speeches and say this. But he—I remember once—this is kind of a personal thing about myself with him. I had grown a beard. Don’t ask me why, but I had. It was all the rage at the time. It was a great, bushy thing. And we were in the cafeteria one day, and he said, “Why don’t you—why don’t you shave off that beard?” (It was clear he didn’t like it.) And I said, “Well, I would if I had a good reason to do it.” And he said, “I’ll give you a good reason. You go home and shave that goddamn thing off!” I went home and shaved it off.

[Assistant] Hard to imagine Bob Gilruth—

[User] I know it. But he—and he didn’t say it in a loud voice. He just told me it very quietly. I don’t think anybody else even heard what he said. But I heard what he said!

[Assistant] Now let’s take this beast called Apollo from the ground up. How do you design a spacecraft that’s really going to be the center point to fly to the Moon with three people when your total experience up till that time has been along a different line of endeavor? Can you describe the evolution of Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know it. But he—and he didn’t say it in a loud voice. He just told me it very quietly. I don’t think anybody else even heard what he said. But I heard what he said!

[Assistant] Now let’s take this beast called Apollo from the ground up. How do you design a spacecraft that’s really going to be the center point to fly to the Moon with three people when your total experience up till that time has been along a different line of endeavor? Can you describe the evolution of Apollo?

[User] Yeah. Well, let’s just start with the so-called command module.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That is where—the thing that houses these three guys. It didn’t take long for everyone to agree that a crew of three was the proper number. I think because there was always the possibility that one person would be hurt or disabled, and that would leave two people to manage to get home. At one time, it was—it said, “Well, we—that—with three people you can stand three 8-hour watches per day.” That was probably the shipboard influence that got into the system.

[Assistant] A lot of Navy at that time—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And all this was going on, you see, when we were at Langley and hadn’t even come to Houston. I have all the old—you know, many old sketches of these configurations and all.

[Assistant] The Space Task Group moved to Houston at the time of the Gemini series beginning.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Gemini IV.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s when you actually made your move—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Gemini IV.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s when you actually made your move—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —so as Gemini was beginning to fly, you were making the move. But you had already designed—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s when you actually made your move—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —so as Gemini was beginning to fly, you were making the move. But you had already designed—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —the next generation of spacecraft, and were building. Was there hardware in the loop at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Charlie [Charles W.] Frick was the Program Manager for the command module. And Charlie knew—he knew that this thing had got to be settled. We could not keep on arguing this and people charging ahead like everything was settled when it wasn’t settled. He managed to convene a great meeting at Marshall with Rockwell (I keep saying “Rockwell,” it’s—

[Assistant] North American.

[User] —North American)—North American and of course von Braun’s people and us and people from Lewis and I don’t know. That whole 10th floor was just jam packed with people. And everybody got up and gave their little stories and their spiels and saying things that we had all been saying for 2 years. Same goddamn thing. And there was this kind of silence after everybody said anything, you know, what are you going to do? And all of a sudden this guy named John [W.] Paup (P-a-u-p, he spelled his name), he was the Program Manager at North American. He all of a sudden says, “Who’s the son of a bitch here that’s not for lunar orbit rendezvous?” There’s all these people sitting there. Not a soul said a damn word. And John said, “Well, I guess that’s what we’re going to do!” You know. That was the advent.

[Assistant] And that’s the way it was.

[User] That’s the way it was.

[Assistant] So, you had a design—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —North American)—North American and of course von Braun’s people and us and people from Lewis and I don’t know. That whole 10th floor was just jam packed with people. And everybody got up and gave their little stories and their spiels and saying things that we had all been saying for 2 years. Same goddamn thing. And there was this kind of silence after everybody said anything, you know, what are you going to do? And all of a sudden this guy named John [W.] Paup (P-a-u-p, he spelled his name), he was the Program Manager at North American. He all of a sudden says, “Who’s the son of a bitch here that’s not for lunar orbit rendezvous?” There’s all these people sitting there. Not a soul said a damn word. And John said, “Well, I guess that’s what we’re going to do!” You know. That was the advent.

[Assistant] And that’s the way it was.

[User] That’s the way it was.

[Assistant] So, you had a design—

[User] We had a—

[Assistant] and things were ready to go. And then as you were finally getting ready to send men up into space, disaster struck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the way it was.

[Assistant] So, you had a design—

[User] We had a—

[Assistant] and things were ready to go. And then as you were finally getting ready to send men up into space, disaster struck.

[User] Yes, yes. That—

[Assistant] The Apollo 1 fire.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a—

[Assistant] and things were ready to go. And then as you were finally getting ready to send men up into space, disaster struck.

[User] Yes, yes. That—

[Assistant] The Apollo 1 fire.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And all of a sudden, the design flaw had been discovered, hadn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. That—

[Assistant] The Apollo 1 fire.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And all of a sudden, the design flaw had been discovered, hadn’t it?

[User] And it was—we made such an obvious mistake that I think that’s how it got by. It was a schoolboy mistake. And, you know, a bunch of us were all involved in it. And we all had better sense (I think we had); but there was one little thing that just escaped us, and none of us thought about that: the fact that it was going to be tested on the ground. Now if it had been that would never have happened in space. But we overlooked that when you pressurize that thing with that much oxygen in it at sea level pressure, that’s a hell of a lot different than the 5 psi that it would see in space. And it was a bomb ready to go off!\n\n And, you know, people blamed it on North American for, let’s say, shoddy wiring or something like that. Well, that may have been—that may have been the trigger; but it was a disaster waiting to happen. And it was—would not be fair to blame that on North American. I think all of us that had a place in the decision to use that system should take the blame. Not any one person, but collectively, we should have known better.

[Assistant] That was a valid reason for using that system, wasn’t there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And all of a sudden, the design flaw had been discovered, hadn’t it?

[User] And it was—we made such an obvious mistake that I think that’s how it got by. It was a schoolboy mistake. And, you know, a bunch of us were all involved in it. And we all had better sense (I think we had); but there was one little thing that just escaped us, and none of us thought about that: the fact that it was going to be tested on the ground. Now if it had been that would never have happened in space. But we overlooked that when you pressurize that thing with that much oxygen in it at sea level pressure, that’s a hell of a lot different than the 5 psi that it would see in space. And it was a bomb ready to go off!\n\n And, you know, people blamed it on North American for, let’s say, shoddy wiring or something like that. Well, that may have been—that may have been the trigger; but it was a disaster waiting to happen. And it was—would not be fair to blame that on North American. I think all of us that had a place in the decision to use that system should take the blame. Not any one person, but collectively, we should have known better.

[Assistant] That was a valid reason for using that system, wasn’t there?

[User] Yes. It was, but it was not a good enough reason. If we had really thought about the hazardous situation on the ground testing, I know we would have never gone that way.

[Assistant] How would you have done it differently?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was, but it was not a good enough reason. If we had really thought about the hazardous situation on the ground testing, I know we would have never gone that way.

[Assistant] How would you have done it differently?

[User] We would’ve made a more complex system and accepted the complications of changing the atmosphere in flight, which we ended up doing. That’s what we ended up doing. And the reason—the first place the reason that there was a pure oxygen atmosphere in there was, at that time, we—our pressure garments were not developed as well as they are now. If you had more than about 5 psi (5 pounds of square inch of pressure) in these suits, they became so stiff that the men couldn’t do anything, you know. The medical people had said, “Well, we need the 5 pounds of square inch for metabolic reasons.” Now it turned out they didn’t.\n\n People in Denver don’t have that. People in Denver only have 3. And in Mexico City. But anyway, that was, you know—that was a little mistake. We could’ve made a different pressure suit. But anyway, we ended up with the 5 psi of oxygen. What we didn’t think about is that when we’re on Earth in sea level pressure that it would not be 5; it would be 15! And, you know, in principle it’s no different. But in fact, that partial pressure of oxygen is just a bomb. If you filled this room with that and, you know, one spark and the whole room would just poom! We’d be gone. So, it was a terrible mistake. You can’t undo it.

[Assistant] You redesigned around it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did the redesign work? What did it do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did the redesign work? What did it do?

[User] Well, it changed—it—while on sea level, the thing had an atmosphere more or less like what we breathe here right now. But as it ascended…[it reduced cabin air pressure to stay within 5 psig, and added oxygen as necessary.] More complicated but it works. It works all right. Now it all started because that pressure garment would not hold anymore pressure than this. And so our whole command module was only designed for 5 psi; and later on, when you get to Apollo-Soyuz, that gave us a problem with docking with Soyuz because they were designed for sea level pressure. And so, we had to build that—if you remember that intermediate module in between them? There was an airlock so you could go from one to the other.

[Assistant] And I think we’re working our way slowly toward that.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So, let’s continue and finish up with—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it changed—it—while on sea level, the thing had an atmosphere more or less like what we breathe here right now. But as it ascended…[it reduced cabin air pressure to stay within 5 psig, and added oxygen as necessary.] More complicated but it works. It works all right. Now it all started because that pressure garment would not hold anymore pressure than this. And so our whole command module was only designed for 5 psi; and later on, when you get to Apollo-Soyuz, that gave us a problem with docking with Soyuz because they were designed for sea level pressure. And so, we had to build that—if you remember that intermediate module in between them? There was an airlock so you could go from one to the other.

[Assistant] And I think we’re working our way slowly toward that.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So, let’s continue and finish up with—

[User] Yeah, sure.

[Assistant] —Apollo, and then we’ll move through Skylab into Apollo-Soyuz. Right now, here we are: the next major thing that came along, other than the fact, the obvious fact, we flew to the Moon. That must have been a tremendous moment for all of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So, let’s continue and finish up with—

[User] Yeah, sure.

[Assistant] —Apollo, and then we’ll move through Skylab into Apollo-Soyuz. Right now, here we are: the next major thing that came along, other than the fact, the obvious fact, we flew to the Moon. That must have been a tremendous moment for all of you.

[User] Oh boy.

[Assistant] Actually making it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, sure.

[Assistant] —Apollo, and then we’ll move through Skylab into Apollo-Soyuz. Right now, here we are: the next major thing that came along, other than the fact, the obvious fact, we flew to the Moon. That must have been a tremendous moment for all of you.

[User] Oh boy.

[Assistant] Actually making it.

[User] It’s unbelievable. I—you know, my mother—my mother, she knew I worked on all this. And she said, “You don’t really think that happened either?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And she said—she said, “I watch television. You know what they do on television. They fake all kind of things.” And I said—she said, “Were you there?” “Well, no, mama, I wasn’t.” “Well, how do you know that you were not fooled along with all the rest of us?” Well, I must admit she had a point. I really wasn’t there. And I got fooled about a lot of things, so—anyway I don’t think I ever convinced my mother. I think she went to her grave not quite sure.

[Assistant] Do you really think that NASA staged the event in the desert?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh boy.

[Assistant] Actually making it.

[User] It’s unbelievable. I—you know, my mother—my mother, she knew I worked on all this. And she said, “You don’t really think that happened either?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And she said—she said, “I watch television. You know what they do on television. They fake all kind of things.” And I said—she said, “Were you there?” “Well, no, mama, I wasn’t.” “Well, how do you know that you were not fooled along with all the rest of us?” Well, I must admit she had a point. I really wasn’t there. And I got fooled about a lot of things, so—anyway I don’t think I ever convinced my mother. I think she went to her grave not quite sure.

[Assistant] Do you really think that NASA staged the event in the desert?

[User] NASA doesn’t have that much sense to do that. I think ABC or CBS might get away with doing it.

[Assistant] I’m glad you didn’t say “NBC” in that context.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s unbelievable. I—you know, my mother—my mother, she knew I worked on all this. And she said, “You don’t really think that happened either?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And she said—she said, “I watch television. You know what they do on television. They fake all kind of things.” And I said—she said, “Were you there?” “Well, no, mama, I wasn’t.” “Well, how do you know that you were not fooled along with all the rest of us?” Well, I must admit she had a point. I really wasn’t there. And I got fooled about a lot of things, so—anyway I don’t think I ever convinced my mother. I think she went to her grave not quite sure.

[Assistant] Do you really think that NASA staged the event in the desert?

[User] NASA doesn’t have that much sense to do that. I think ABC or CBS might get away with doing it.

[Assistant] I’m glad you didn’t say “NBC” in that context.

[User] Yeah, I was careful not to say it.

[Assistant] Thank you kindly, sir. Well, the next big thing then that happened, though outside of the obvious (which was a success), was failure in terms of Apollo 13.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NASA doesn’t have that much sense to do that. I think ABC or CBS might get away with doing it.

[Assistant] I’m glad you didn’t say “NBC” in that context.

[User] Yeah, I was careful not to say it.

[Assistant] Thank you kindly, sir. Well, the next big thing then that happened, though outside of the obvious (which was a success), was failure in terms of Apollo 13.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I can’t, you know, speak technically about that much because that cryogenic system, I—,you know, I understand how it works and all that. But I’m not sure of the mechanics.

[Assistant] It wasn’t your area of expertise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was careful not to say it.

[Assistant] Thank you kindly, sir. Well, the next big thing then that happened, though outside of the obvious (which was a success), was failure in terms of Apollo 13.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I can’t, you know, speak technically about that much because that cryogenic system, I—,you know, I understand how it works and all that. But I’m not sure of the mechanics.

[Assistant] It wasn’t your area of expertise.

[User] No. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Well, why don’t we then move out and beyond.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I can’t, you know, speak technically about that much because that cryogenic system, I—,you know, I understand how it works and all that. But I’m not sure of the mechanics.

[Assistant] It wasn’t your area of expertise.

[User] No. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Well, why don’t we then move out and beyond.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Because now Apollo has gone to the Moon. It’s performed its functions. And the time had come for, not an adaptation but for another spacecraft: a space station to be called Skylab.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] Well, why don’t we then move out and beyond.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Because now Apollo has gone to the Moon. It’s performed its functions. And the time had come for, not an adaptation but for another spacecraft: a space station to be called Skylab.

[User] Skylab.

[Assistant] Did you work on it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Because now Apollo has gone to the Moon. It’s performed its functions. And the time had come for, not an adaptation but for another spacecraft: a space station to be called Skylab.

[User] Skylab.

[Assistant] Did you work on it?

[User] Yeah, I sure did.

[Assistant] How did—what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We tackled everything that way. You know, we said, “Why change it from Earth unless you have to do it?” The cabinets and all. People went around inventing new latches on cabinet doors. Ace Hardware has worked on cabinet latches for a zillion years. They know all about it. Some of the engineers designed special ones that will break the first damn time anybody uses them! You know, some of the NASA guys.

[Assistant] So, what did you do? Go to the hardware store?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Literally?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then when you had the chance to see them work, when you saw Pete [Charles C.] Conrad [Jr.] running the Skylab 500 up there and Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin exercising—

[User] Yeah, that’s right.

[Assistant] —in space.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] There you saw the reality of your dream, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that’s right.

[Assistant] —in space.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] There you saw the reality of your dream, didn’t you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But before that could happen, you had to fix that machine. Because when it first went up there, it didn’t quite take the right position.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] There you saw the reality of your dream, didn’t you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But before that could happen, you had to fix that machine. Because when it first went up there, it didn’t quite take the right position.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] Can you describe that for us? And how the fix was made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But before that could happen, you had to fix that machine. Because when it first went up there, it didn’t quite take the right position.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] Can you describe that for us? And how the fix was made?

[User] Of course, everyone was—everyone was shocked when—after the launch, we found out that one of the—one array was gone and the other one didn’t deploy and—

[Assistant] These are solar arrays, you’re talking about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And you know, it could still happen. It’s not like that’s the only time it’s going to happen. No reason why it can’t happen again with things.

[Assistant] It’s kind of the history of the space program, isn’t it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Use your ingenuity to make up—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —for what you don’t know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Use your ingenuity to make up—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —for what you don’t know.

[User] It would’ve been so easy to have given up. You know, that first 24 hours after it, it would’ve been so easy for everybody to say, “Gee, that’s tough.” But somewhere along the line, somebody said, you know, “Goddamn it, we’re going to fix it!”

[Assistant] Do you—would you like to have seen the Skylab stay up there? Or were you one of the group that said, “Let’s bring it back. It’s time has been served.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —for what you don’t know.

[User] It would’ve been so easy to have given up. You know, that first 24 hours after it, it would’ve been so easy for everybody to say, “Gee, that’s tough.” But somewhere along the line, somebody said, you know, “Goddamn it, we’re going to fix it!”

[Assistant] Do you—would you like to have seen the Skylab stay up there? Or were you one of the group that said, “Let’s bring it back. It’s time has been served.”

[User] No. I’m embarrassed every time I think about it. We had a crackerjack space station there; and we—you know, if you look at our history in the spaceflight business, we never plan for anything to last long. Every program was dead end. I don’t even think we wanted anything to last. It was too much fun building new things. We had that marvelous Saturn V. The greatest machine that was ever built! And the only one left is sitting over here in the visitors’ place, and here and now, nowhere else. That great machine. Mercury, you know, abandoned it. Abandoned Gemini. And abandoned Apollo. Left Skylab, you know, just—“Yeah, what the hell, we’ll build a new one.” It’s that kind of attitude. It’s almost—it’s almost like the Agency doesn’t want anything to last!

[Assistant] Isn’t that the American way—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I’m embarrassed every time I think about it. We had a crackerjack space station there; and we—you know, if you look at our history in the spaceflight business, we never plan for anything to last long. Every program was dead end. I don’t even think we wanted anything to last. It was too much fun building new things. We had that marvelous Saturn V. The greatest machine that was ever built! And the only one left is sitting over here in the visitors’ place, and here and now, nowhere else. That great machine. Mercury, you know, abandoned it. Abandoned Gemini. And abandoned Apollo. Left Skylab, you know, just—“Yeah, what the hell, we’ll build a new one.” It’s that kind of attitude. It’s almost—it’s almost like the Agency doesn’t want anything to last!

[Assistant] Isn’t that the American way—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —with automobiles—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —the same way?