[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —with automobiles—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —the same way?

[User] Yeah, I guess—I guess that’s what it is.

[Assistant] Well, of course, one thing that was done next after Skylab, there was something called Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —the same way?

[User] Yeah, I guess—I guess that’s what it is.

[Assistant] Well, of course, one thing that was done next after Skylab, there was something called Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project].

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, there was a split in the road right there; and you worked on Apollo-Soyuz as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I guess—I guess that’s what it is.

[Assistant] Well, of course, one thing that was done next after Skylab, there was something called Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project].

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, there was a split in the road right there; and you worked on Apollo-Soyuz as well.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, there was a split in the road right there; and you worked on Apollo-Soyuz as well.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?

[User] Out of a clear blue sky, there came some message from Headquarters—.

[Assistant]
We’re about to catch that big time alarm. Do you want to—

Say when. We were just about to start talking another project on which you worked: Apollo-Soyuz. ASTP. What do you remember? How did that begin to go together? It was kind of a divergent program, moving away from things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But we taught them—we taught them how to spend money that they didn’t have.

[Assistant] They’re still doing it, aren’t they?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well—

[User] But anyway, it was—they were great people to work with. The technical people. They put their first team there. They didn’t have a lot of bench strength. But they had a crackerjack first team. And everyone was cooperative. We didn’t talk politics. We didn’t have anything—you know, nothing like that went on.

[Assistant] For the first time, you were able to see Russian engineering.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well—

[User] But anyway, it was—they were great people to work with. The technical people. They put their first team there. They didn’t have a lot of bench strength. But they had a crackerjack first team. And everyone was cooperative. We didn’t talk politics. We didn’t have anything—you know, nothing like that went on.

[Assistant] For the first time, you were able to see Russian engineering.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What you saw. Did it surprise you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But anyway, it was—they were great people to work with. The technical people. They put their first team there. They didn’t have a lot of bench strength. But they had a crackerjack first team. And everyone was cooperative. We didn’t talk politics. We didn’t have anything—you know, nothing like that went on.

[Assistant] For the first time, you were able to see Russian engineering.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What you saw. Did it surprise you?

[User] Well, I wasn’t surprised because they had been doing some great things. But I really didn’t expect to personally run into so many guys that were really crackerjack.

[Assistant] Did you learn anything from them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What you saw. Did it surprise you?

[User] Well, I wasn’t surprised because they had been doing some great things. But I really didn’t expect to personally run into so many guys that were really crackerjack.

[Assistant] Did you learn anything from them?

[User] Yes. You know, a lot of things that they—and—now one thing they did have a problem with: They didn’t trust one another as much as they trusted us. Now this sounds surprising. I mean, in little things. A fellow asked me, he said, “Will you give me a certain—some information I need?” And I said, “I don’t have it with me, but I will—I’ll send it to you when I get back.” Later on I saw him, and he said, “You never sent me what you told me you would.” And I said, “Yeah, I gave it to Ivan” or somebody else, you know, “to give to you when you got back.” And he said, “Don’t ever do that! He’s not going to give it to me. He’s going to keep it for himself.” Now, we would never think about doing a thing like that. But I guess they were not quite as sure of themselves, and were kind of protecting each—protecting themselves.

[Assistant] As you look at what you learned of the Russian space program, had theirs followed a similar track to yours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I wasn’t surprised because they had been doing some great things. But I really didn’t expect to personally run into so many guys that were really crackerjack.

[Assistant] Did you learn anything from them?

[User] Yes. You know, a lot of things that they—and—now one thing they did have a problem with: They didn’t trust one another as much as they trusted us. Now this sounds surprising. I mean, in little things. A fellow asked me, he said, “Will you give me a certain—some information I need?” And I said, “I don’t have it with me, but I will—I’ll send it to you when I get back.” Later on I saw him, and he said, “You never sent me what you told me you would.” And I said, “Yeah, I gave it to Ivan” or somebody else, you know, “to give to you when you got back.” And he said, “Don’t ever do that! He’s not going to give it to me. He’s going to keep it for himself.” Now, we would never think about doing a thing like that. But I guess they were not quite as sure of themselves, and were kind of protecting each—protecting themselves.

[Assistant] As you look at what you learned of the Russian space program, had theirs followed a similar track to yours?

[User] No. They just flat didn’t have the money. They—everywhere you went, you could see that they made do with things that we wouldn’t make do with. Their labs had wooden oil floors. The plaster was cracked on the walls. There were light bulbs hanging down on a cord that you reached up and turned the switch. You know, all their equipment was kind of crummy, crummy stuff. Now they made up for it with industry. They worked hard and very conscientious people.

[Assistant] Did it lead you to wonder how, with that background, they were able to fly the complex machines necessary to go in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You know, a lot of things that they—and—now one thing they did have a problem with: They didn’t trust one another as much as they trusted us. Now this sounds surprising. I mean, in little things. A fellow asked me, he said, “Will you give me a certain—some information I need?” And I said, “I don’t have it with me, but I will—I’ll send it to you when I get back.” Later on I saw him, and he said, “You never sent me what you told me you would.” And I said, “Yeah, I gave it to Ivan” or somebody else, you know, “to give to you when you got back.” And he said, “Don’t ever do that! He’s not going to give it to me. He’s going to keep it for himself.” Now, we would never think about doing a thing like that. But I guess they were not quite as sure of themselves, and were kind of protecting each—protecting themselves.

[Assistant] As you look at what you learned of the Russian space program, had theirs followed a similar track to yours?

[User] No. They just flat didn’t have the money. They—everywhere you went, you could see that they made do with things that we wouldn’t make do with. Their labs had wooden oil floors. The plaster was cracked on the walls. There were light bulbs hanging down on a cord that you reached up and turned the switch. You know, all their equipment was kind of crummy, crummy stuff. Now they made up for it with industry. They worked hard and very conscientious people.

[Assistant] Did it lead you to wonder how, with that background, they were able to fly the complex machines necessary to go in space?

[User] Yeah, but they did it because they just worked hard. The guys working on it just plain worked hard. They didn’t spare themselves, you know. They were really dedicated.

[Assistant] And did they learn from you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but they did it because they just worked hard. The guys working on it just plain worked hard. They didn’t spare themselves, you know. They were really dedicated.

[Assistant] And did they learn from you?

[User] Well, I think they kind of marveled at all the things we’ve got. I remember, we took a couple of IBM typewriters over with us because we—you know, we needed some—something there. And those poor girls there in the offices, they looked at those IBM electrics and they had these old mechanical clunkers and all, you know. Clunk, clunk. Making 12 carbons. And make a mistake, and they have to erase all 12 carbons. And there we had that goddamn Selectric, you know, and you know. And they just—they just marveled at it.\n\n The Xerox machines. When they first saw a Xerox machine, they said, you know, “Anybody just walks up and makes a copy.” They said, “Why don’t you make money?” And I said, “Well, that’s not considered cricket.” They couldn’t understand why everybody didn’t just go up and make all the dollar bills. They were a great bunch, though. I still see Syromyatnikov occasionally. He comes here when the Shuttle and Mir were docking. You see, he was a docking guy. And he would be in Mission Control here doing those operations.

[Assistant] Did you think at the time of ASTP—did you think at the time that we would wind up literally with the International Space Station at some point in the future?

[User] Why sure, I knew it was going—you know, that’s what we were really working towards. There wasn’t much point in doing Apollo-Soyuz if it didn’t kind of demonstrate that it’s reasonable to do these things.

[Assistant] This was in the thinking then—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —even then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Interesting point.

[User] Yes. And of course, if you’re going to assemble things in orbit, you’re—as far as I was concerned, you had to have a docking system. And from Lunney’s standpoint, there has to be a communication system and an agreement on operational protocols to do this. And so, this was all paving the way. And I’m sure the Russians must’ve had that in mind.

[Assistant] You were laying the groundwork for the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Interesting point.

[User] Yes. And of course, if you’re going to assemble things in orbit, you’re—as far as I was concerned, you had to have a docking system. And from Lunney’s standpoint, there has to be a communication system and an agreement on operational protocols to do this. And so, this was all paving the way. And I’m sure the Russians must’ve had that in mind.

[Assistant] You were laying the groundwork for the future.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, something else that happened just about that same time. It was the advent of something called Space Shuttle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And of course, if you’re going to assemble things in orbit, you’re—as far as I was concerned, you had to have a docking system. And from Lunney’s standpoint, there has to be a communication system and an agreement on operational protocols to do this. And so, this was all paving the way. And I’m sure the Russians must’ve had that in mind.

[Assistant] You were laying the groundwork for the future.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, something else that happened just about that same time. It was the advent of something called Space Shuttle.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You and Faget got deeply involved with that, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, something else that happened just about that same time. It was the advent of something called Space Shuttle.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You and Faget got deeply involved with that, didn’t you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You and Faget got deeply involved with that, didn’t you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little about that?

[User] Yeah, we—I think what really happened—now this is a terrible thing to say, but I think we got bored. You know, Apollo was flying great; and Skylab was hanging around and all this kind of thing. And, you know, why—let’s have a—let’s have a Space Shuttle. Everybody wanted to have, you know, something really challenging to do. And he and I got thinking about it, and we had a configuration that he and I decided to build a model of it. I was going to build the booster part, and he was going to build the manned spacecraft. And it was—it was a horrible thing. It didn’t perform at all well, you know; and we talked to Mr. Gilruth and he said, “You guys ought to know better. That thing you’ve got, any fool knows that that is—”\n\n He explained some of the aerodynamics of the thing, and Max and I really were embarrassed because we should’ve known better. Here we’re supposed to be a hotshot spacecraft design, but we made a bunch of schoolboy mistakes on the thing. Gilruth took one look at it and showed us what was wrong with it. It didn’t end up being anything like that. But—fortunately—but we went through—we must’ve gone through 3 or 4 dozen configurations of the Shuttle. Of different concepts and things in—in the course of finally arriving at what it turned out to be, you know.

[Assistant] What were the specifications against which you were trying to design? What were you really trying to build?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was a conflict with the Air Force. The Air Force had something in mind that didn’t—was not the same as what NASA’s objective would be. But I presume in the politics of the thing, there had to be some sort of meeting of the mind because, without the Air Force support, we would’ve never got the Shuttle. So, for instance, the cross-range capability during entry. The military was interesting in a great cross range so they could land where they wanted to in one orbit, at any given time could get back.\n\n Now that is—is not—not necessary at all for this Shuttle’s missions these days, these so-called scientific missions. That’s not necessary at all; but you can understand in the military it might’ve been very important to—to get back on a moment’s notice. And things like that. Its lift weight and the size of the payload bay was [sic] really much—it’s—it’s more space there than the—than the thing can lift. That is generally speaking if you filled up the cargo bay in Shuttle, it generally would end up too heavy. But it got off. It got worked out. And it turned out the Air Force never really used it.

[Assistant] Oh, they used it a couple of times.

[User] Well, I mean it was never used for what it was—I don’t know exactly what it was intended for. But it was never used to that capacity, to my knowledge.

[Assistant] I guess that brings us around to your look, based on your knowledge of the past—your look at the future as to whether this country’s space program is moving in a good direction, in a different direction, and do you see a future in space? Do you see people in the future doing—

[User] Oh yes, sure.

[Assistant] —what you did in the past?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean it was never used for what it was—I don’t know exactly what it was intended for. But it was never used to that capacity, to my knowledge.

[Assistant] I guess that brings us around to your look, based on your knowledge of the past—your look at the future as to whether this country’s space program is moving in a good direction, in a different direction, and do you see a future in space? Do you see people in the future doing—

[User] Oh yes, sure.

[Assistant] —what you did in the past?

[User] Sure, sure, sure. I can’t believe people will be content to stay on Earth. I just can’t believe it. Any more than they were content to stay in Europe or to stay in Asia. You know, another continent beckoned and there’s another mountain to climb just for the hell of climbing it, you know. Beside we—we’re apparently overpopulating ourselves. So, sooner or later we’ll have to do something.

[Assistant] Looking back on it—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, sure.

[Assistant] —what you did in the past?

[User] Sure, sure, sure. I can’t believe people will be content to stay on Earth. I just can’t believe it. Any more than they were content to stay in Europe or to stay in Asia. You know, another continent beckoned and there’s another mountain to climb just for the hell of climbing it, you know. Beside we—we’re apparently overpopulating ourselves. So, sooner or later we’ll have to do something.

[Assistant] Looking back on it—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —C. C., I think you found yourself in the right place at the right time didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, sure, sure. I can’t believe people will be content to stay on Earth. I just can’t believe it. Any more than they were content to stay in Europe or to stay in Asia. You know, another continent beckoned and there’s another mountain to climb just for the hell of climbing it, you know. Beside we—we’re apparently overpopulating ourselves. So, sooner or later we’ll have to do something.

[Assistant] Looking back on it—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —C. C., I think you found yourself in the right place at the right time didn’t you?

[User] You’d better believe it. It’s—I just happened to catch one of those waves, baby, and we rode them—rode it right to shore.

[Assistant] And you know we’ve been talking for quite a while now. I want to give you the opportunity to make up for my shortcomings. If there’s something that I should have asked and didn’t, or if there’s something that you’re just dying to tell us, this is that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —C. C., I think you found yourself in the right place at the right time didn’t you?

[User] You’d better believe it. It’s—I just happened to catch one of those waves, baby, and we rode them—rode it right to shore.

[Assistant] And you know we’ve been talking for quite a while now. I want to give you the opportunity to make up for my shortcomings. If there’s something that I should have asked and didn’t, or if there’s something that you’re just dying to tell us, this is that time.

[User] No. No, I—

[Assistant] The microphone and the camera’s all yours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’d better believe it. It’s—I just happened to catch one of those waves, baby, and we rode them—rode it right to shore.

[Assistant] And you know we’ve been talking for quite a while now. I want to give you the opportunity to make up for my shortcomings. If there’s something that I should have asked and didn’t, or if there’s something that you’re just dying to tell us, this is that time.

[User] No. No, I—

[Assistant] The microphone and the camera’s all yours.

[User] I don’t know. I—on—after this interview, of course, I’ll think of 20 things. But right at the moment, I can’t think of anything. I feel a little bit sorry for the guys coming along now. Because the first place—not that everything’s been done by any means. But we kind of licked the icing off the top of the cake and, you know, they’ve got to eat the cake with no icing left on it anymore now. And of course anything they do, somebody will say, “Oh what the hell! We did that in 1965” or something like that.

[Assistant] You don’t think a colony on the Moon or a trip to Mars might be a little different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I—

[Assistant] The microphone and the camera’s all yours.

[User] I don’t know. I—on—after this interview, of course, I’ll think of 20 things. But right at the moment, I can’t think of anything. I feel a little bit sorry for the guys coming along now. Because the first place—not that everything’s been done by any means. But we kind of licked the icing off the top of the cake and, you know, they’ve got to eat the cake with no icing left on it anymore now. And of course anything they do, somebody will say, “Oh what the hell! We did that in 1965” or something like that.

[Assistant] You don’t think a colony on the Moon or a trip to Mars might be a little different?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Particularly if those journeys embodied new technology? Something different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I—on—after this interview, of course, I’ll think of 20 things. But right at the moment, I can’t think of anything. I feel a little bit sorry for the guys coming along now. Because the first place—not that everything’s been done by any means. But we kind of licked the icing off the top of the cake and, you know, they’ve got to eat the cake with no icing left on it anymore now. And of course anything they do, somebody will say, “Oh what the hell! We did that in 1965” or something like that.

[Assistant] You don’t think a colony on the Moon or a trip to Mars might be a little different?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Particularly if those journeys embodied new technology? Something different?

[User] Yeah. It’s kind of tough to—not to be able to play in the game anymore. You know, I know Max feels that way because he said so. That you don’t like the idea that somebody else is going to do all these things, and you don’t have a chance to participate in them. But, you know, you’ve really got to thank your lucky stars that you got to do what you did.

[Assistant] Was there any single thing in your entire career that stands out in your memory as, this was really the turning point or a highlight of all the things that I did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Particularly if those journeys embodied new technology? Something different?

[User] Yeah. It’s kind of tough to—not to be able to play in the game anymore. You know, I know Max feels that way because he said so. That you don’t like the idea that somebody else is going to do all these things, and you don’t have a chance to participate in them. But, you know, you’ve really got to thank your lucky stars that you got to do what you did.

[Assistant] Was there any single thing in your entire career that stands out in your memory as, this was really the turning point or a highlight of all the things that I did?

[User] No. When the things happen, they just seem like that that’s, you know—that’s as usual. And it’s only after it’s all over with that you say, “Well, that’s really not all that usual and that it doesn’t happen very often.” But each day is just a day working. It’s a day working.

[Assistant] You took it a step at a time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It’s kind of tough to—not to be able to play in the game anymore. You know, I know Max feels that way because he said so. That you don’t like the idea that somebody else is going to do all these things, and you don’t have a chance to participate in them. But, you know, you’ve really got to thank your lucky stars that you got to do what you did.

[Assistant] Was there any single thing in your entire career that stands out in your memory as, this was really the turning point or a highlight of all the things that I did?

[User] No. When the things happen, they just seem like that that’s, you know—that’s as usual. And it’s only after it’s all over with that you say, “Well, that’s really not all that usual and that it doesn’t happen very often.” But each day is just a day working. It’s a day working.

[Assistant] You took it a step at a time.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I sound like a basketball coach now. One game at a time.

[Assistant] Very good. C. C., thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. When the things happen, they just seem like that that’s, you know—that’s as usual. And it’s only after it’s all over with that you say, “Well, that’s really not all that usual and that it doesn’t happen very often.” But each day is just a day working. It’s a day working.

[Assistant] You took it a step at a time.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I sound like a basketball coach now. One game at a time.

[Assistant] Very good. C. C., thank you.

[User] Okay. Well, it’s been my pleasure.

[Assistant] It’s been a grand interview. And we’ve, of course, been talking with Caldwell (call him “Cadwell”)—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I sound like a basketball coach now. One game at a time.

[Assistant] Very good. C. C., thank you.

[User] Okay. Well, it’s been my pleasure.

[Assistant] It’s been a grand interview. And we’ve, of course, been talking with Caldwell (call him “Cadwell”)—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —or C. C—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Well, it’s been my pleasure.

[Assistant] It’s been a grand interview. And we’ve, of course, been talking with Caldwell (call him “Cadwell”)—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —or C. C—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and we’ve been talking about the history of the space program here at the [Johnson] Space Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —or C. C—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —and we’ve been talking about the history of the space program here at the [Johnson] Space Center.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It’s a good place to talk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think he had a particular interest in flight, but just an opportunity to take children to new experiences, I guess.

[Assistant] You got to ride in your first plane when you were age six, in one of the Ford Tri-Motors. Do you have recollections of that?

[User] I do not.

[Assistant] You don't?

[User] No.

[Assistant] When did you first hear of [Charles A.] Lindbergh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do not.

[Assistant] You don't?

[User] No.

[Assistant] When did you first hear of [Charles A.] Lindbergh?

[User] I can't remember when the first time was, but I'm sure it was when I was a schoolboy, in elementary school.

[Assistant] Everybody in America knew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] When did you first hear of [Charles A.] Lindbergh?

[User] I can't remember when the first time was, but I'm sure it was when I was a schoolboy, in elementary school.

[Assistant] Everybody in America knew.

[User] Yes. Schoolboys always talked about heroes of flight.

[Assistant] Did you later have an opportunity to meet Lindbergh? Was he somebody that had been in your mind when you were becoming a pilot, thinking about Lindbergh? Did he mean a great deal to you as an American icon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember when the first time was, but I'm sure it was when I was a schoolboy, in elementary school.

[Assistant] Everybody in America knew.

[User] Yes. Schoolboys always talked about heroes of flight.

[Assistant] Did you later have an opportunity to meet Lindbergh? Was he somebody that had been in your mind when you were becoming a pilot, thinking about Lindbergh? Did he mean a great deal to you as an American icon?

[User] I did have the opportunity to meet him on several occasions. Had enormous admiration for him as a pilot. I'd read some of his books. I was aware of the controversial position he took on certain issues. But I was very pleased to have had the chance to meet him, and I think his wife [Anne Morrow Lindbergh] was a wonderful person and quite an [eloquent] writer.

[Assistant]
Yes.

Did you ever correspond with him at the time of the Apollo? Was there any kind of wishing you well before the Apollo 11 mission, wishing you luck sort of—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Schoolboys always talked about heroes of flight.

[Assistant] Did you later have an opportunity to meet Lindbergh? Was he somebody that had been in your mind when you were becoming a pilot, thinking about Lindbergh? Did he mean a great deal to you as an American icon?

[User] I did have the opportunity to meet him on several occasions. Had enormous admiration for him as a pilot. I'd read some of his books. I was aware of the controversial position he took on certain issues. But I was very pleased to have had the chance to meet him, and I think his wife [Anne Morrow Lindbergh] was a wonderful person and quite an [eloquent] writer.

[Assistant]
Yes.

Did you ever correspond with him at the time of the Apollo? Was there any kind of wishing you well before the Apollo 11 mission, wishing you luck sort of—

[User] I can't recall that. I think I have some letters from him in my file, though.

[Assistant] When did you begin building things? Your interest and your concern with engineering, your wanting to build things, is that a part of your memory from when you were five or six years old? Did you have a special bent towards that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did have the opportunity to meet him on several occasions. Had enormous admiration for him as a pilot. I'd read some of his books. I was aware of the controversial position he took on certain issues. But I was very pleased to have had the chance to meet him, and I think his wife [Anne Morrow Lindbergh] was a wonderful person and quite an [eloquent] writer.

[Assistant]
Yes.

Did you ever correspond with him at the time of the Apollo? Was there any kind of wishing you well before the Apollo 11 mission, wishing you luck sort of—

[User] I can't recall that. I think I have some letters from him in my file, though.

[Assistant] When did you begin building things? Your interest and your concern with engineering, your wanting to build things, is that a part of your memory from when you were five or six years old? Did you have a special bent towards that?

[User] I began to focus on aviation probably at age eight or nine, and inspired by what I'd read and seen about aviation and building model aircraft, why, I determined at an early age—and I don't know exactly what age, while I was still in elementary school—that that was the field I wanted to go into, although my intention was to be—or hope was to be an aircraft designer. I later went into piloting because I thought a good designer ought to know the operational aspects of an airplane.

[Assistant] Were you good in mathematics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't recall that. I think I have some letters from him in my file, though.

[Assistant] When did you begin building things? Your interest and your concern with engineering, your wanting to build things, is that a part of your memory from when you were five or six years old? Did you have a special bent towards that?

[User] I began to focus on aviation probably at age eight or nine, and inspired by what I'd read and seen about aviation and building model aircraft, why, I determined at an early age—and I don't know exactly what age, while I was still in elementary school—that that was the field I wanted to go into, although my intention was to be—or hope was to be an aircraft designer. I later went into piloting because I thought a good designer ought to know the operational aspects of an airplane.

[Assistant] Were you good in mathematics?

[User] Everything's relative. I was good in my small classes. However, I've since met many people who have far better mastery of mathematics than I will ever have.

[Assistant] Did you have physics in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I began to focus on aviation probably at age eight or nine, and inspired by what I'd read and seen about aviation and building model aircraft, why, I determined at an early age—and I don't know exactly what age, while I was still in elementary school—that that was the field I wanted to go into, although my intention was to be—or hope was to be an aircraft designer. I later went into piloting because I thought a good designer ought to know the operational aspects of an airplane.

[Assistant] Were you good in mathematics?

[User] Everything's relative. I was good in my small classes. However, I've since met many people who have far better mastery of mathematics than I will ever have.

[Assistant] Did you have physics in high school?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Do you remember your teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything's relative. I was good in my small classes. However, I've since met many people who have far better mastery of mathematics than I will ever have.

[Assistant] Did you have physics in high school?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Do you remember your teacher?

[User] Yes, it was John Crites. I remember him very well, because he was sort of an unconventional teacher. He allowed a few students in each of his classes to do special projects, and so we didn't go to class very much. We were always off working on our projects.

[Assistant] What was your project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Do you remember your teacher?

[User] Yes, it was John Crites. I remember him very well, because he was sort of an unconventional teacher. He allowed a few students in each of his classes to do special projects, and so we didn't go to class very much. We were always off working on our projects.

[Assistant] What was your project?

[User] In physics we had two. One was building a Tesla coil. I think it was probably about a 50,000 volt Tesla coil, good enough to light up fluorescent bulbs in the next room. Then a wind tunnel. That project was by myself. The Tesla coil I did with another student.

[Assistant] Tell us about the wind tunnel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was John Crites. I remember him very well, because he was sort of an unconventional teacher. He allowed a few students in each of his classes to do special projects, and so we didn't go to class very much. We were always off working on our projects.

[Assistant] What was your project?

[User] In physics we had two. One was building a Tesla coil. I think it was probably about a 50,000 volt Tesla coil, good enough to light up fluorescent bulbs in the next room. Then a wind tunnel. That project was by myself. The Tesla coil I did with another student.

[Assistant] Tell us about the wind tunnel.

[User] Well, my knowledge of aerodynamics was not good enough to match the quality of the Wright Brothers' tunnel, and at that point I suppose I was equally educated to them. But it was a fun project. Blew out a lot of fuses in my home. [Chuckles] Because I tried to build a rheostat which would allow the electric motor to change speed and then get various air flows through the tunnel, not altogether successfully.

[Assistant] During this period you were traveling around Ohio to a lot of different cities. Is there one beyond Wapakoneta, other cities that you really identified with? Did you go to different schools in all those different towns?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In physics we had two. One was building a Tesla coil. I think it was probably about a 50,000 volt Tesla coil, good enough to light up fluorescent bulbs in the next room. Then a wind tunnel. That project was by myself. The Tesla coil I did with another student.

[Assistant] Tell us about the wind tunnel.

[User] Well, my knowledge of aerodynamics was not good enough to match the quality of the Wright Brothers' tunnel, and at that point I suppose I was equally educated to them. But it was a fun project. Blew out a lot of fuses in my home. [Chuckles] Because I tried to build a rheostat which would allow the electric motor to change speed and then get various air flows through the tunnel, not altogether successfully.

[Assistant] During this period you were traveling around Ohio to a lot of different cities. Is there one beyond Wapakoneta, other cities that you really identified with? Did you go to different schools in all those different towns?

[User] Yes. I went to … half a dozen schools.

[Assistant] Were you able to develop friendships when you were going to that many different schools, or was it the family life become—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my knowledge of aerodynamics was not good enough to match the quality of the Wright Brothers' tunnel, and at that point I suppose I was equally educated to them. But it was a fun project. Blew out a lot of fuses in my home. [Chuckles] Because I tried to build a rheostat which would allow the electric motor to change speed and then get various air flows through the tunnel, not altogether successfully.

[Assistant] During this period you were traveling around Ohio to a lot of different cities. Is there one beyond Wapakoneta, other cities that you really identified with? Did you go to different schools in all those different towns?

[User] Yes. I went to … half a dozen schools.

[Assistant] Were you able to develop friendships when you were going to that many different schools, or was it the family life become—?

[User] I'm certain I had friendships in every one of the schools I was in, but I don't remember those friends prior to probably the junior high school age. I still have friends that I see and remember from that time period and subsequent.

[Assistant] Beyond your physics class and the projects, were you an avid reader? Were you reading engineering and aerodynamics or history or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I went to … half a dozen schools.

[Assistant] Were you able to develop friendships when you were going to that many different schools, or was it the family life become—?

[User] I'm certain I had friendships in every one of the schools I was in, but I don't remember those friends prior to probably the junior high school age. I still have friends that I see and remember from that time period and subsequent.

[Assistant] Beyond your physics class and the projects, were you an avid reader? Were you reading engineering and aerodynamics or history or what?

[User] I was an avid reader, yes, and I read all kinds of things. I spent a lot of time in the library and took a lot of books out of the library, both fiction and nonfiction. However, when I was building things, like models and so on, they were predominantly focused on aviation-related “stuff.”

[Assistant] Do you remember any specific book you read about aviation that—"Wow!" kind of response?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm certain I had friendships in every one of the schools I was in, but I don't remember those friends prior to probably the junior high school age. I still have friends that I see and remember from that time period and subsequent.

[Assistant] Beyond your physics class and the projects, were you an avid reader? Were you reading engineering and aerodynamics or history or what?

[User] I was an avid reader, yes, and I read all kinds of things. I spent a lot of time in the library and took a lot of books out of the library, both fiction and nonfiction. However, when I was building things, like models and so on, they were predominantly focused on aviation-related “stuff.”

[Assistant] Do you remember any specific book you read about aviation that—"Wow!" kind of response?

[User] I recall that I read a lot of the aviation magazines of the time, Flight and Air Trails and Model Airplane News, and anything I could get my hands on.

[Assistant] What about like Robert [H.] Goddard in science fiction, things about space? Did you ever read any of the science fiction writers of that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was an avid reader, yes, and I read all kinds of things. I spent a lot of time in the library and took a lot of books out of the library, both fiction and nonfiction. However, when I was building things, like models and so on, they were predominantly focused on aviation-related “stuff.”

[Assistant] Do you remember any specific book you read about aviation that—"Wow!" kind of response?

[User] I recall that I read a lot of the aviation magazines of the time, Flight and Air Trails and Model Airplane News, and anything I could get my hands on.

[Assistant] What about like Robert [H.] Goddard in science fiction, things about space? Did you ever read any of the science fiction writers of that time?

[User] As a young boy I don't recall reading much science fiction. I did come to enjoy it when I was perhaps late high school and college age.

[Assistant] When you were very small, did you have any interest in [General William] Billy Mitchell's trial?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I recall that I read a lot of the aviation magazines of the time, Flight and Air Trails and Model Airplane News, and anything I could get my hands on.

[Assistant] What about like Robert [H.] Goddard in science fiction, things about space? Did you ever read any of the science fiction writers of that time?

[User] As a young boy I don't recall reading much science fiction. I did come to enjoy it when I was perhaps late high school and college age.

[Assistant] When you were very small, did you have any interest in [General William] Billy Mitchell's trial?

[User] I don't recall. I knew the name Billy Mitchell and I knew about his demonstration of the effectiveness of air power, but I don't recall things about his trial. I may have known, but I don't remember.

[Assistant] You were what, a sophomore in high school when World War II ended?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a young boy I don't recall reading much science fiction. I did come to enjoy it when I was perhaps late high school and college age.

[Assistant] When you were very small, did you have any interest in [General William] Billy Mitchell's trial?

[User] I don't recall. I knew the name Billy Mitchell and I knew about his demonstration of the effectiveness of air power, but I don't recall things about his trial. I may have known, but I don't remember.

[Assistant] You were what, a sophomore in high school when World War II ended?

[User] That's approximately—let's see. Yes, I was between my sophomore and junior year.

[Assistant] The assumption among young men at that time was, "As soon as I graduate or as soon as I get to be eighteen, I'm going into the service." But then the war ended when you were fifteen. So you completed the high school without any "I'm going to enlist" kind of feeling.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall. I knew the name Billy Mitchell and I knew about his demonstration of the effectiveness of air power, but I don't recall things about his trial. I may have known, but I don't remember.

[Assistant] You were what, a sophomore in high school when World War II ended?

[User] That's approximately—let's see. Yes, I was between my sophomore and junior year.

[Assistant] The assumption among young men at that time was, "As soon as I graduate or as soon as I get to be eighteen, I'm going into the service." But then the war ended when you were fifteen. So you completed the high school without any "I'm going to enlist" kind of feeling.

[User] That's correct. We had a few people in my school who had either lied about their age or were a little older than the class, who had gone into the service, and came back and finished high school after the war was over. We had several of those fellows in our school, but the youngest of those would probably be two years older than I was.

[Assistant] You got a Navy scholarship to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana] immediately after graduating high school, I gather.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's approximately—let's see. Yes, I was between my sophomore and junior year.

[Assistant] The assumption among young men at that time was, "As soon as I graduate or as soon as I get to be eighteen, I'm going into the service." But then the war ended when you were fifteen. So you completed the high school without any "I'm going to enlist" kind of feeling.

[User] That's correct. We had a few people in my school who had either lied about their age or were a little older than the class, who had gone into the service, and came back and finished high school after the war was over. We had several of those fellows in our school, but the youngest of those would probably be two years older than I was.

[Assistant] You got a Navy scholarship to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana] immediately after graduating high school, I gather.

[User] I believe that the test for what was called the Hollaway Plan, the Naval Aviation College [Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC] Program, were administered nationwide while I was still in high school, probably shortly before graduation, although I cannot remember the precise date. It was early enough so that we could pick a school. If we were accepted into this program, we could pick any accredited school in the nation to attend.

[Assistant] Was the test on one of those IBM [International Business Machines] sheets where you, you know, one, two, three, four, five, and you have a lead pencil and you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. We had a few people in my school who had either lied about their age or were a little older than the class, who had gone into the service, and came back and finished high school after the war was over. We had several of those fellows in our school, but the youngest of those would probably be two years older than I was.

[Assistant] You got a Navy scholarship to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana] immediately after graduating high school, I gather.

[User] I believe that the test for what was called the Hollaway Plan, the Naval Aviation College [Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC] Program, were administered nationwide while I was still in high school, probably shortly before graduation, although I cannot remember the precise date. It was early enough so that we could pick a school. If we were accepted into this program, we could pick any accredited school in the nation to attend.

[Assistant] Was the test on one of those IBM [International Business Machines] sheets where you, you know, one, two, three, four, five, and you have a lead pencil and you—

[User] I don't think so. I believe it was predominantly—I shouldn't really say, because I confuse that. But my recollection is that it was a pencil-and-paper exam with a variety of different kinds of questions and sections.

[Assistant] Mainly mathematics or mathematics and physics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe that the test for what was called the Hollaway Plan, the Naval Aviation College [Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC] Program, were administered nationwide while I was still in high school, probably shortly before graduation, although I cannot remember the precise date. It was early enough so that we could pick a school. If we were accepted into this program, we could pick any accredited school in the nation to attend.

[Assistant] Was the test on one of those IBM [International Business Machines] sheets where you, you know, one, two, three, four, five, and you have a lead pencil and you—

[User] I don't think so. I believe it was predominantly—I shouldn't really say, because I confuse that. But my recollection is that it was a pencil-and-paper exam with a variety of different kinds of questions and sections.

[Assistant] Mainly mathematics or mathematics and physics?

[User] I'm sure they had a focus on things that would be appropriate to aviation, because it was an aviation-directed program, but I can't remember the details of the test, except that I recall it was quite long. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What do you mean by long? All day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. I believe it was predominantly—I shouldn't really say, because I confuse that. But my recollection is that it was a pencil-and-paper exam with a variety of different kinds of questions and sections.

[Assistant] Mainly mathematics or mathematics and physics?

[User] I'm sure they had a focus on things that would be appropriate to aviation, because it was an aviation-directed program, but I can't remember the details of the test, except that I recall it was quite long. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What do you mean by long? All day?

[User] Yes, it was an all-day test.

[Assistant] That's the way they used to do it, I know. [Laughter] I've been through that myself.\n\n So you came out well, obviously, and the Navy offered you, and the "Holly" Plan—it was like Naval ROTC, that you would get tuition and a stipend of twenty-five bucks a month or something like that, I suppose.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure they had a focus on things that would be appropriate to aviation, because it was an aviation-directed program, but I can't remember the details of the test, except that I recall it was quite long. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What do you mean by long? All day?

[User] Yes, it was an all-day test.

[Assistant] That's the way they used to do it, I know. [Laughter] I've been through that myself.\n\n So you came out well, obviously, and the Navy offered you, and the "Holly" Plan—it was like Naval ROTC, that you would get tuition and a stipend of twenty-five bucks a month or something like that, I suppose.

[User] Fortunately, it was a little more than that. They would pay tuition fees and books, plus a stipend for board and room.

[Assistant] So when you were accepted in this program, you were signing up, in effect, accepting a call from the navy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was an all-day test.

[Assistant] That's the way they used to do it, I know. [Laughter] I've been through that myself.\n\n So you came out well, obviously, and the Navy offered you, and the "Holly" Plan—it was like Naval ROTC, that you would get tuition and a stipend of twenty-five bucks a month or something like that, I suppose.

[User] Fortunately, it was a little more than that. They would pay tuition fees and books, plus a stipend for board and room.

[Assistant] So when you were accepted in this program, you were signing up, in effect, accepting a call from the navy.

[User] A seven-year program, yes. Two years of [university study], then go to the navy, go through flight training, get a commission, and then serve in the regular navy for a total then of three years of active duty, after which the plan would be to return to university and finish the last two years. The intent of this program, named after Admiral [James L.] Holloway [Jr.], who, if memory serves, was [astronaut Walter M.] Wally Schirra's father-in-law, and the intent was to build up the naval air reserve strength, which they felt was going downhill because people after the war really didn't want to do that stuff anymore. That was my understanding at the time.

[Assistant] So you were called up for flight training after what, one year at Purdue or two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fortunately, it was a little more than that. They would pay tuition fees and books, plus a stipend for board and room.

[Assistant] So when you were accepted in this program, you were signing up, in effect, accepting a call from the navy.

[User] A seven-year program, yes. Two years of [university study], then go to the navy, go through flight training, get a commission, and then serve in the regular navy for a total then of three years of active duty, after which the plan would be to return to university and finish the last two years. The intent of this program, named after Admiral [James L.] Holloway [Jr.], who, if memory serves, was [astronaut Walter M.] Wally Schirra's father-in-law, and the intent was to build up the naval air reserve strength, which they felt was going downhill because people after the war really didn't want to do that stuff anymore. That was my understanding at the time.

[Assistant] So you were called up for flight training after what, one year at Purdue or two years?

[User] A year and a half. It was supposed to be two years, but I suppose they saw [the] Korea[n War] coming or something, and they needed to ratchet the volume up a little bit, so they called us in early.

[Assistant] So now you're in uniform, but not yet commissioned, being trained as a pilot, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A seven-year program, yes. Two years of [university study], then go to the navy, go through flight training, get a commission, and then serve in the regular navy for a total then of three years of active duty, after which the plan would be to return to university and finish the last two years. The intent of this program, named after Admiral [James L.] Holloway [Jr.], who, if memory serves, was [astronaut Walter M.] Wally Schirra's father-in-law, and the intent was to build up the naval air reserve strength, which they felt was going downhill because people after the war really didn't want to do that stuff anymore. That was my understanding at the time.

[Assistant] So you were called up for flight training after what, one year at Purdue or two years?

[User] A year and a half. It was supposed to be two years, but I suppose they saw [the] Korea[n War] coming or something, and they needed to ratchet the volume up a little bit, so they called us in early.

[Assistant] So now you're in uniform, but not yet commissioned, being trained as a pilot, is that correct?

[User] Yes, I was in naval flight school.

[Assistant] Tell me about training. How did the navy go about training you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A year and a half. It was supposed to be two years, but I suppose they saw [the] Korea[n War] coming or something, and they needed to ratchet the volume up a little bit, so they called us in early.

[Assistant] So now you're in uniform, but not yet commissioned, being trained as a pilot, is that correct?

[User] Yes, I was in naval flight school.

[Assistant] Tell me about training. How did the navy go about training you?

[User] Well, they found that the way I had learned to fly before wasn't nearly what they expected. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just to backtrack for one second, you got your pilot's license at age sixteen in Ohio. Could you have gotten it any earlier? Is that almost like getting an auto license back when you're fourteen, fifteen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was in naval flight school.

[Assistant] Tell me about training. How did the navy go about training you?

[User] Well, they found that the way I had learned to fly before wasn't nearly what they expected. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just to backtrack for one second, you got your pilot's license at age sixteen in Ohio. Could you have gotten it any earlier? Is that almost like getting an auto license back when you're fourteen, fifteen?

[User] I believe you could get it in a glider at age fourteen, but in a powered aircraft you had to wait till you reached your sixteenth birthday, and then the license you got was called a student pilot's license, which allowed you to fly solo, but not take passengers with you.

[Assistant] Do you remember your first solo flight over the land in Ohio when you actually could be up in the air on your own? Do you have any recollections of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they found that the way I had learned to fly before wasn't nearly what they expected. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just to backtrack for one second, you got your pilot's license at age sixteen in Ohio. Could you have gotten it any earlier? Is that almost like getting an auto license back when you're fourteen, fifteen?

[User] I believe you could get it in a glider at age fourteen, but in a powered aircraft you had to wait till you reached your sixteenth birthday, and then the license you got was called a student pilot's license, which allowed you to fly solo, but not take passengers with you.

[Assistant] Do you remember your first solo flight over the land in Ohio when you actually could be up in the air on your own? Do you have any recollections of that?

[User] Yes, I have vague recollections. A very exciting time when you go on your first solo.

[Assistant] Where was the location?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe you could get it in a glider at age fourteen, but in a powered aircraft you had to wait till you reached your sixteenth birthday, and then the license you got was called a student pilot's license, which allowed you to fly solo, but not take passengers with you.

[Assistant] Do you remember your first solo flight over the land in Ohio when you actually could be up in the air on your own? Do you have any recollections of that?

[User] Yes, I have vague recollections. A very exciting time when you go on your first solo.

[Assistant] Where was the location?

[User] It was in Wapakoneta, at a grass field there.

[Assistant] Who was your first instructor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I have vague recollections. A very exciting time when you go on your first solo.

[Assistant] Where was the location?

[User] It was in Wapakoneta, at a grass field there.

[Assistant] Who was your first instructor?

[User] Oh, let's see. I had three. The first one's name escapes me at the minute [Frank Lucie]. The second one was named Aubrey Knudegard. The third was Chuck Finkenbine .

[Assistant] They lived in that area, in Wapakoneta area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in Wapakoneta, at a grass field there.

[Assistant] Who was your first instructor?

[User] Oh, let's see. I had three. The first one's name escapes me at the minute [Frank Lucie]. The second one was named Aubrey Knudegard. The third was Chuck Finkenbine .

[Assistant] They lived in that area, in Wapakoneta area?

[User] I don't know where they lived, but I'm sure they didn't live far away.

[Assistant] Was this unusual for a young man your age? Were a lot of contemporaries of yours wanting to get pilot's license?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, let's see. I had three. The first one's name escapes me at the minute [Frank Lucie]. The second one was named Aubrey Knudegard. The third was Chuck Finkenbine .

[Assistant] They lived in that area, in Wapakoneta area?

[User] I don't know where they lived, but I'm sure they didn't live far away.

[Assistant] Was this unusual for a young man your age? Were a lot of contemporaries of yours wanting to get pilot's license?

[User] I was in a class of maybe about seventy students, about half boys. We had three in my class that learned to fly at the same time I did. So I don't know how unusual that is, three out of thirty five, 10 percent. Not very unusual.

[Assistant] Before we get back to the navy, can I ask one Ohio question? I'm curious because of living in Ohio. Do you remember the towns that you lived in? Research says you lived in a lot of different towns, but they never say the names of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know where they lived, but I'm sure they didn't live far away.

[Assistant] Was this unusual for a young man your age? Were a lot of contemporaries of yours wanting to get pilot's license?

[User] I was in a class of maybe about seventy students, about half boys. We had three in my class that learned to fly at the same time I did. So I don't know how unusual that is, three out of thirty five, 10 percent. Not very unusual.

[Assistant] Before we get back to the navy, can I ask one Ohio question? I'm curious because of living in Ohio. Do you remember the towns that you lived in? Research says you lived in a lot of different towns, but they never say the names of them.

[User] I moved a lot before I entered school, and when I entered school, the rate of change of towns slowed down somewhat, but still about every couple of years it seemed like we were moving.

[Assistant] What were the names of some of the other towns besides—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in a class of maybe about seventy students, about half boys. We had three in my class that learned to fly at the same time I did. So I don't know how unusual that is, three out of thirty five, 10 percent. Not very unusual.

[Assistant] Before we get back to the navy, can I ask one Ohio question? I'm curious because of living in Ohio. Do you remember the towns that you lived in? Research says you lived in a lot of different towns, but they never say the names of them.

[User] I moved a lot before I entered school, and when I entered school, the rate of change of towns slowed down somewhat, but still about every couple of years it seemed like we were moving.

[Assistant] What were the names of some of the other towns besides—

[User] First school was in Warren, Ohio; and then Jefferson, Ohio; Moulton, Ohio; then St. Mary's, Ohio; [Upper Sandusky Ohio]; then Wapakoneta, Ohio.

[Assistant]
I never knew those other towns. Thank you.

Okay. When you began with the navy is training you to be a pilot, you had been up in a single-engine plane for some soloing, but now you're with the United States Navy. How did they train you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I moved a lot before I entered school, and when I entered school, the rate of change of towns slowed down somewhat, but still about every couple of years it seemed like we were moving.

[Assistant] What were the names of some of the other towns besides—

[User] First school was in Warren, Ohio; and then Jefferson, Ohio; Moulton, Ohio; then St. Mary's, Ohio; [Upper Sandusky Ohio]; then Wapakoneta, Ohio.

[Assistant]
I never knew those other towns. Thank you.

Okay. When you began with the navy is training you to be a pilot, you had been up in a single-engine plane for some soloing, but now you're with the United States Navy. How did they train you?

[User] Training was divided into three parts. The first was a [four]-month nonflying ground school and physical training regimen. The second part was called basic training, which was all flight students went through the exact same protocol, did the exact same kinds of things, learning to fly, getting some experience soloing, learning to do cross-country flight, navigation, that sort of thing, learning to fly instruments, learning to fly acrobatics, learning to fly formation, learning to drop bombs, learning to fire guns, and learning to land on an aircraft carrier.\n\n After that, went to advanced training, where—

[Assistant] On an actual carrier?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First school was in Warren, Ohio; and then Jefferson, Ohio; Moulton, Ohio; then St. Mary's, Ohio; [Upper Sandusky Ohio]; then Wapakoneta, Ohio.

[Assistant]
I never knew those other towns. Thank you.

Okay. When you began with the navy is training you to be a pilot, you had been up in a single-engine plane for some soloing, but now you're with the United States Navy. How did they train you?

[User] Training was divided into three parts. The first was a [four]-month nonflying ground school and physical training regimen. The second part was called basic training, which was all flight students went through the exact same protocol, did the exact same kinds of things, learning to fly, getting some experience soloing, learning to do cross-country flight, navigation, that sort of thing, learning to fly instruments, learning to fly acrobatics, learning to fly formation, learning to drop bombs, learning to fire guns, and learning to land on an aircraft carrier.\n\n After that, went to advanced training, where—

[Assistant] On an actual carrier?

[User] On a real carrier. [In] advanced training, you [were selected to become the pilot of single engine aircraft (fighters and attack aircraft) or multiengine patrol aircraft]. In my case, I asked for fighters and got fighters.\n\n Then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas, and went through training there in single-occupant aircraft, in my case F8F Bearcat. We went through … the same kinds of things, learning to fly on instruments and learning to do advanced navigation, over-water navigation.

[Assistant] Navigation by the stars or navigation by radio or navigation by compass or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was divided into three parts. The first was a [four]-month nonflying ground school and physical training regimen. The second part was called basic training, which was all flight students went through the exact same protocol, did the exact same kinds of things, learning to fly, getting some experience soloing, learning to do cross-country flight, navigation, that sort of thing, learning to fly instruments, learning to fly acrobatics, learning to fly formation, learning to drop bombs, learning to fire guns, and learning to land on an aircraft carrier.\n\n After that, went to advanced training, where—

[Assistant] On an actual carrier?

[User] On a real carrier. [In] advanced training, you [were selected to become the pilot of single engine aircraft (fighters and attack aircraft) or multiengine patrol aircraft]. In my case, I asked for fighters and got fighters.\n\n Then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas, and went through training there in single-occupant aircraft, in my case F8F Bearcat. We went through … the same kinds of things, learning to fly on instruments and learning to do advanced navigation, over-water navigation.

[Assistant] Navigation by the stars or navigation by radio or navigation by compass or what?

[User] We had learned in the earlier part, … the ground school part, how to navigate and use celestial navigation. … Celestial navigation was used by multi-engine pilots predominantly, while single-engine fighters and attack aircraft required the full attention of the sole occupant on the flying, and so he couldn't be taking sextant shots and things like that. So the navigation was somewhat more rudimentary, but it required dead reckoning and use of radio aids and whatever might be available at sea….

[Assistant] How do you dead-reckon at sea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On a real carrier. [In] advanced training, you [were selected to become the pilot of single engine aircraft (fighters and attack aircraft) or multiengine patrol aircraft]. In my case, I asked for fighters and got fighters.\n\n Then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas, and went through training there in single-occupant aircraft, in my case F8F Bearcat. We went through … the same kinds of things, learning to fly on instruments and learning to do advanced navigation, over-water navigation.

[Assistant] Navigation by the stars or navigation by radio or navigation by compass or what?

[User] We had learned in the earlier part, … the ground school part, how to navigate and use celestial navigation. … Celestial navigation was used by multi-engine pilots predominantly, while single-engine fighters and attack aircraft required the full attention of the sole occupant on the flying, and so he couldn't be taking sextant shots and things like that. So the navigation was somewhat more rudimentary, but it required dead reckoning and use of radio aids and whatever might be available at sea….

[Assistant] How do you dead-reckon at sea?

[User] By computing your true speed over the ground, by using your air speed, altitude, and outside temperature, and noting the direction of the wind however you could by wave action or cloud shadow movements.

[Assistant] Guessing, in other words.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had learned in the earlier part, … the ground school part, how to navigate and use celestial navigation. … Celestial navigation was used by multi-engine pilots predominantly, while single-engine fighters and attack aircraft required the full attention of the sole occupant on the flying, and so he couldn't be taking sextant shots and things like that. So the navigation was somewhat more rudimentary, but it required dead reckoning and use of radio aids and whatever might be available at sea….

[Assistant] How do you dead-reckon at sea?

[User] By computing your true speed over the ground, by using your air speed, altitude, and outside temperature, and noting the direction of the wind however you could by wave action or cloud shadow movements.

[Assistant] Guessing, in other words.

[User] Guessing. At least you'd hopefully be in the right direction, probably weren't always. And then the pilots had to be able to return to their carrier, so there were certain kinds of electronic aids that were peculiar to a carrier you wouldn't find anywhere else, wouldn't find in land-based navigation. So it was a matter of learning those and, of course, learning to use the aircraft as a weapon defensively and offensively, and learn tactics, and then finally qualify again on a carrier in advanced aircraft…. Other students went into multi-engine flight in either patrol bombers or transports or some variety of other craft. Everyone went their separate ways.

[Assistant] In the army air force in 1942, '43, '44, only the very best got to be fighter pilots. If you weren't quite up to that standard, then they put you in a two-engine or a four-engine. Was that also true in the navy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By computing your true speed over the ground, by using your air speed, altitude, and outside temperature, and noting the direction of the wind however you could by wave action or cloud shadow movements.

[Assistant] Guessing, in other words.

[User] Guessing. At least you'd hopefully be in the right direction, probably weren't always. And then the pilots had to be able to return to their carrier, so there were certain kinds of electronic aids that were peculiar to a carrier you wouldn't find anywhere else, wouldn't find in land-based navigation. So it was a matter of learning those and, of course, learning to use the aircraft as a weapon defensively and offensively, and learn tactics, and then finally qualify again on a carrier in advanced aircraft…. Other students went into multi-engine flight in either patrol bombers or transports or some variety of other craft. Everyone went their separate ways.

[Assistant] In the army air force in 1942, '43, '44, only the very best got to be fighter pilots. If you weren't quite up to that standard, then they put you in a two-engine or a four-engine. Was that also true in the navy?

[User] The fighter pilots always said that was true. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm not asking you to brag on yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guessing. At least you'd hopefully be in the right direction, probably weren't always. And then the pilots had to be able to return to their carrier, so there were certain kinds of electronic aids that were peculiar to a carrier you wouldn't find anywhere else, wouldn't find in land-based navigation. So it was a matter of learning those and, of course, learning to use the aircraft as a weapon defensively and offensively, and learn tactics, and then finally qualify again on a carrier in advanced aircraft…. Other students went into multi-engine flight in either patrol bombers or transports or some variety of other craft. Everyone went their separate ways.

[Assistant] In the army air force in 1942, '43, '44, only the very best got to be fighter pilots. If you weren't quite up to that standard, then they put you in a two-engine or a four-engine. Was that also true in the navy?

[User] The fighter pilots always said that was true. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm not asking you to brag on yourself.

[User] But I don't know what the naval officers, the commanding officer of the training command would say about that. I was not privy to what process they used in deciding. My own guess is that a large part of it had to do with what needs they had at the time you graduated, because in my particular class, most of my classmates happened to get what they asked for, while I can recall people from a different generation saying nobody got what they asked for. So I can't really know.

[Assistant] I've read that you told your mother you didn't want to be responsible for others; that's why you wanted a single-engine fighter. Is that story accurate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The fighter pilots always said that was true. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm not asking you to brag on yourself.

[User] But I don't know what the naval officers, the commanding officer of the training command would say about that. I was not privy to what process they used in deciding. My own guess is that a large part of it had to do with what needs they had at the time you graduated, because in my particular class, most of my classmates happened to get what they asked for, while I can recall people from a different generation saying nobody got what they asked for. So I can't really know.

[Assistant] I've read that you told your mother you didn't want to be responsible for others; that's why you wanted a single-engine fighter. Is that story accurate?

[User] I don't know that I ever told her that. You know, I might have said something like that, but I don't remember saying that.

[Assistant] When did you get your wings and commission? What was the date?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I don't know what the naval officers, the commanding officer of the training command would say about that. I was not privy to what process they used in deciding. My own guess is that a large part of it had to do with what needs they had at the time you graduated, because in my particular class, most of my classmates happened to get what they asked for, while I can recall people from a different generation saying nobody got what they asked for. So I can't really know.

[Assistant] I've read that you told your mother you didn't want to be responsible for others; that's why you wanted a single-engine fighter. Is that story accurate?

[User] I don't know that I ever told her that. You know, I might have said something like that, but I don't remember saying that.

[Assistant] When did you get your wings and commission? What was the date?

[User] I got my wings in August of 1950, but that was about seventeen or eighteen months after I'd begun my active duty service, so I still had another six months to go. So I was one of those rare birds, a midshipman with wings. So I went to the fleet squadron, was in a standby unit for a while, then assigned to a jet fighter squadron, still was a midshipman making seventy-five bucks a month plus flight pay, 50 percent of seventy-five bucks.

[Assistant] Landing on carriers at night, that was extraordinarily difficult to learn. Was there one aspect of this period that was a hard thing for you to conquer something like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know that I ever told her that. You know, I might have said something like that, but I don't remember saying that.

[Assistant] When did you get your wings and commission? What was the date?

[User] I got my wings in August of 1950, but that was about seventeen or eighteen months after I'd begun my active duty service, so I still had another six months to go. So I was one of those rare birds, a midshipman with wings. So I went to the fleet squadron, was in a standby unit for a while, then assigned to a jet fighter squadron, still was a midshipman making seventy-five bucks a month plus flight pay, 50 percent of seventy-five bucks.

[Assistant] Landing on carriers at night, that was extraordinarily difficult to learn. Was there one aspect of this period that was a hard thing for you to conquer something like that?

[User] I happened to be a day fighter pilot. We had night fighter pilots on the ship I was on, and I thought they were crazy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ever have to do a night landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got my wings in August of 1950, but that was about seventeen or eighteen months after I'd begun my active duty service, so I still had another six months to go. So I was one of those rare birds, a midshipman with wings. So I went to the fleet squadron, was in a standby unit for a while, then assigned to a jet fighter squadron, still was a midshipman making seventy-five bucks a month plus flight pay, 50 percent of seventy-five bucks.

[Assistant] Landing on carriers at night, that was extraordinarily difficult to learn. Was there one aspect of this period that was a hard thing for you to conquer something like that?

[User] I happened to be a day fighter pilot. We had night fighter pilots on the ship I was on, and I thought they were crazy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ever have to do a night landing?

[User] I did it only in practice. I never did it on a carrier. All my landings on a carrier were in day. I was always happy about that.

[Assistant] So, August of '50, the Korean War is now a couple of months old.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I happened to be a day fighter pilot. We had night fighter pilots on the ship I was on, and I thought they were crazy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you ever have to do a night landing?

[User] I did it only in practice. I never did it on a carrier. All my landings on a carrier were in day. I was always happy about that.

[Assistant] So, August of '50, the Korean War is now a couple of months old.

[User] Yes, just started.

[Assistant] And you're completing your basic. Did they send you right off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did it only in practice. I never did it on a carrier. All my landings on a carrier were in day. I was always happy about that.

[Assistant] So, August of '50, the Korean War is now a couple of months old.

[User] Yes, just started.

[Assistant] And you're completing your basic. Did they send you right off?

[User] I asked for the Pacific Fleet and was given the Pacific Fleet. But as I say, I was first sent out to a squadron called FASRON, Fleet Air Service Squadron, which is a utility squadron, handled all kinds of miscellaneous jobs that needed to be done around a large naval air station. That sort of was a holding position. They would typically take new entrants that come to that base and stick them there for a time period until there was a squadron opening for assignment, so I was in that squadron for probably three or four months, until there was an opening for me in Fighter Squadron 51 [VF-51].

[Assistant] That would have been at the end of 1950.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, just started.

[Assistant] And you're completing your basic. Did they send you right off?

[User] I asked for the Pacific Fleet and was given the Pacific Fleet. But as I say, I was first sent out to a squadron called FASRON, Fleet Air Service Squadron, which is a utility squadron, handled all kinds of miscellaneous jobs that needed to be done around a large naval air station. That sort of was a holding position. They would typically take new entrants that come to that base and stick them there for a time period until there was a squadron opening for assignment, so I was in that squadron for probably three or four months, until there was an opening for me in Fighter Squadron 51 [VF-51].

[Assistant] That would have been at the end of 1950.

[User] That was the end of '50. November or December, as I remember.

[Assistant] And then off to the fleet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I asked for the Pacific Fleet and was given the Pacific Fleet. But as I say, I was first sent out to a squadron called FASRON, Fleet Air Service Squadron, which is a utility squadron, handled all kinds of miscellaneous jobs that needed to be done around a large naval air station. That sort of was a holding position. They would typically take new entrants that come to that base and stick them there for a time period until there was a squadron opening for assignment, so I was in that squadron for probably three or four months, until there was an opening for me in Fighter Squadron 51 [VF-51].

[Assistant] That would have been at the end of 1950.

[User] That was the end of '50. November or December, as I remember.

[Assistant] And then off to the fleet?

[User] Yes. We immediately prepared to be assigned to the Korean action, and so a matter of the squadron training everyone in an operational sense to do the job that they would be expected to do, so that period. Again, you sort of do the same sorts of things as you did in training. Now you're in a new aircraft, but you have a much more specific objective because you sort of know what kind of an environment you're going into.\n\n We didn't know to what extent we would be offensive, in the sense that we would be dropping bombs or shooting guns, or to what extent we might be defending the fleet against Chinese or Russian incoming aircraft, to what extent it might be air-to-air or air-to-ground. So we had to prepare for sort of all of those, plus become carrier-qualified in jet aircraft and doing a lot of practice with weapons delivery, instrument flying, and so on, the things that we would be facing when we got in operation. I was very young, very green.

[Assistant] You were very young. Which coast of Korea were you on when you flew your first mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the end of '50. November or December, as I remember.

[Assistant] And then off to the fleet?

[User] Yes. We immediately prepared to be assigned to the Korean action, and so a matter of the squadron training everyone in an operational sense to do the job that they would be expected to do, so that period. Again, you sort of do the same sorts of things as you did in training. Now you're in a new aircraft, but you have a much more specific objective because you sort of know what kind of an environment you're going into.\n\n We didn't know to what extent we would be offensive, in the sense that we would be dropping bombs or shooting guns, or to what extent we might be defending the fleet against Chinese or Russian incoming aircraft, to what extent it might be air-to-air or air-to-ground. So we had to prepare for sort of all of those, plus become carrier-qualified in jet aircraft and doing a lot of practice with weapons delivery, instrument flying, and so on, the things that we would be facing when we got in operation. I was very young, very green.

[Assistant] You were very young. Which coast of Korea were you on when you flew your first mission?

[User] All the time we flew off the eastern coast of North Korea, off Wonsan Bay, about 100 miles out, something like that. Had two kinds of flights. One would be called combat air patrol, which was defense of the fleet, basically. And the other was predominantly interdiction flights, flying against bridges and railroads and trying to find an occasional tank—

[Assistant] Bombs and bullets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We immediately prepared to be assigned to the Korean action, and so a matter of the squadron training everyone in an operational sense to do the job that they would be expected to do, so that period. Again, you sort of do the same sorts of things as you did in training. Now you're in a new aircraft, but you have a much more specific objective because you sort of know what kind of an environment you're going into.\n\n We didn't know to what extent we would be offensive, in the sense that we would be dropping bombs or shooting guns, or to what extent we might be defending the fleet against Chinese or Russian incoming aircraft, to what extent it might be air-to-air or air-to-ground. So we had to prepare for sort of all of those, plus become carrier-qualified in jet aircraft and doing a lot of practice with weapons delivery, instrument flying, and so on, the things that we would be facing when we got in operation. I was very young, very green.

[Assistant] You were very young. Which coast of Korea were you on when you flew your first mission?

[User] All the time we flew off the eastern coast of North Korea, off Wonsan Bay, about 100 miles out, something like that. Had two kinds of flights. One would be called combat air patrol, which was defense of the fleet, basically. And the other was predominantly interdiction flights, flying against bridges and railroads and trying to find an occasional tank—

[Assistant] Bombs and bullets?

[User] Bombs, bullets, and rockets sometimes, depending on what target it was. We had a combination of two jet fighter squadrons, F4U Corsair squadron, of course, air squadron, and an AD [Skyraider] squadron. [They] could carry the 2,000-pounders and really do some damage.

[Assistant] Seven in a squadron?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the time we flew off the eastern coast of North Korea, off Wonsan Bay, about 100 miles out, something like that. Had two kinds of flights. One would be called combat air patrol, which was defense of the fleet, basically. And the other was predominantly interdiction flights, flying against bridges and railroads and trying to find an occasional tank—

[Assistant] Bombs and bullets?

[User] Bombs, bullets, and rockets sometimes, depending on what target it was. We had a combination of two jet fighter squadrons, F4U Corsair squadron, of course, air squadron, and an AD [Skyraider] squadron. [They] could carry the 2,000-pounders and really do some damage.

[Assistant] Seven in a squadron?

[User] I can't speak specifically to the numbers in each squadron. In our squadron we had twenty-four pilots and sixteen aircraft.

[Assistant] Sixteen. But only twenty-four pilots.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bombs, bullets, and rockets sometimes, depending on what target it was. We had a combination of two jet fighter squadrons, F4U Corsair squadron, of course, air squadron, and an AD [Skyraider] squadron. [They] could carry the 2,000-pounders and really do some damage.

[Assistant] Seven in a squadron?

[User] I can't speak specifically to the numbers in each squadron. In our squadron we had twenty-four pilots and sixteen aircraft.

[Assistant] Sixteen. But only twenty-four pilots.

[User] Yes. Started with twenty-four.

[Assistant] Started with, yeah. The army liked to have two pilots for every airplane.\n\n Tell us about your first mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't speak specifically to the numbers in each squadron. In our squadron we had twenty-four pilots and sixteen aircraft.

[Assistant] Sixteen. But only twenty-four pilots.

[User] Yes. Started with twenty-four.

[Assistant] Started with, yeah. The army liked to have two pilots for every airplane.\n\n Tell us about your first mission.

[User] I can't recall it.

[Assistant] I know you did a lot of them. Did you ever, in flying combat air patrol, did they ever come in and try to attack the fleet at night?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't recall it.

[Assistant] I know you did a lot of them. Did you ever, in flying combat air patrol, did they ever come in and try to attack the fleet at night?

[User] No, and I'm glad they didn't.

[Assistant] By air?

[User] No. I would not have enjoyed trying to go—well, I probably would have enjoyed it, but I don't know that I would have won against a MiG in an old Panther. It was a pretty primitive airplane. Of course, the MiG was pretty primitive too, but had a little better performance.

[Assistant] How did the F9F Panther perform?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, and I'm glad they didn't.

[Assistant] By air?

[User] No. I would not have enjoyed trying to go—well, I probably would have enjoyed it, but I don't know that I would have won against a MiG in an old Panther. It was a pretty primitive airplane. Of course, the MiG was pretty primitive too, but had a little better performance.

[Assistant] How did the F9F Panther perform?

[User] It was a very solid airplane. We thought it was wonderful. In retrospect, it was an airplane of the time and it didn't fly [particularly] well…. But we didn't know that at the time….

[Assistant] What were the weak points?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I would not have enjoyed trying to go—well, I probably would have enjoyed it, but I don't know that I would have won against a MiG in an old Panther. It was a pretty primitive airplane. Of course, the MiG was pretty primitive too, but had a little better performance.

[Assistant] How did the F9F Panther perform?

[User] It was a very solid airplane. We thought it was wonderful. In retrospect, it was an airplane of the time and it didn't fly [particularly] well…. But we didn't know that at the time….

[Assistant] What were the weak points?

[User] It didn't have particularly good handling qualities. Pretty good lateral directional controls, but very stiff in pitch. Its performance both in absolute altitude, max speed, and climb rate were inferior to the MiG by substantial amount.

[Assistant] There's a story about September 3rd, 1951, when you had to eject yourself from a Panther after receiving antiaircraft fire. Was that one of the moments of the Korean War where you really feel your life is being put on the line?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a very solid airplane. We thought it was wonderful. In retrospect, it was an airplane of the time and it didn't fly [particularly] well…. But we didn't know that at the time….

[Assistant] What were the weak points?

[User] It didn't have particularly good handling qualities. Pretty good lateral directional controls, but very stiff in pitch. Its performance both in absolute altitude, max speed, and climb rate were inferior to the MiG by substantial amount.

[Assistant] There's a story about September 3rd, 1951, when you had to eject yourself from a Panther after receiving antiaircraft fire. Was that one of the moments of the Korean War where you really feel your life is being put on the line?

[User] I do remember that one. It wasn't antiaircraft fire, although antiaircraft fire was ubiquitous at the time. I don't know to what extent that antiaircraft fire played a part in it, but I actually ran through a cable, an antiaircraft cable, and knocked off about six or eight feet of my right wing. If you're going fast, a cable will make a very good knife.

[Assistant] And what happened at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It didn't have particularly good handling qualities. Pretty good lateral directional controls, but very stiff in pitch. Its performance both in absolute altitude, max speed, and climb rate were inferior to the MiG by substantial amount.

[Assistant] There's a story about September 3rd, 1951, when you had to eject yourself from a Panther after receiving antiaircraft fire. Was that one of the moments of the Korean War where you really feel your life is being put on the line?

[User] I do remember that one. It wasn't antiaircraft fire, although antiaircraft fire was ubiquitous at the time. I don't know to what extent that antiaircraft fire played a part in it, but I actually ran through a cable, an antiaircraft cable, and knocked off about six or eight feet of my right wing. If you're going fast, a cable will make a very good knife.

[Assistant] And what happened at that point?

[User] I didn't think that I could risk slowing the airplane down to landing speed, because once—

[Assistant] You must have been almost right on the deck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do remember that one. It wasn't antiaircraft fire, although antiaircraft fire was ubiquitous at the time. I don't know to what extent that antiaircraft fire played a part in it, but I actually ran through a cable, an antiaircraft cable, and knocked off about six or eight feet of my right wing. If you're going fast, a cable will make a very good knife.

[Assistant] And what happened at that point?

[User] I didn't think that I could risk slowing the airplane down to landing speed, because once—

[Assistant] You must have been almost right on the deck.

[User] Well, these are strung between mountains, so I was up maybe 500 feet or something, not an unusual altitude for the kind of things we were doing. I don't remember exactly what the altitude was, but they didn't put those big balls on the cables so that you could see they were there in those days.

[Assistant] What happened after that moment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't think that I could risk slowing the airplane down to landing speed, because once—

[Assistant] You must have been almost right on the deck.

[User] Well, these are strung between mountains, so I was up maybe 500 feet or something, not an unusual altitude for the kind of things we were doing. I don't remember exactly what the altitude was, but they didn't put those big balls on the cables so that you could see they were there in those days.

[Assistant] What happened after that moment?

[User] I was flying on the wing of John Carpenter. He was an air force major, on an exchange program with us. We talked it over and decided not to try to land it, because if I got a little bit too slow and started to snap, I would have no [ability] to control it after that, so consequently decided it would be better to jump out. So, took it down south into friendly territory and jumped out in the vicinity of Pohang Airport, K-3, which was operated by U.S. marines.

[Assistant] Could you eject or did you jump?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, these are strung between mountains, so I was up maybe 500 feet or something, not an unusual altitude for the kind of things we were doing. I don't remember exactly what the altitude was, but they didn't put those big balls on the cables so that you could see they were there in those days.

[Assistant] What happened after that moment?

[User] I was flying on the wing of John Carpenter. He was an air force major, on an exchange program with us. We talked it over and decided not to try to land it, because if I got a little bit too slow and started to snap, I would have no [ability] to control it after that, so consequently decided it would be better to jump out. So, took it down south into friendly territory and jumped out in the vicinity of Pohang Airport, K-3, which was operated by U.S. marines.

[Assistant] Could you eject or did you jump?

[User] I ejected. The old-style shotgun-shell-powered ejection seat, 22 G seat.

[Assistant] Were you always wearing the parachute or did you have to put it on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was flying on the wing of John Carpenter. He was an air force major, on an exchange program with us. We talked it over and decided not to try to land it, because if I got a little bit too slow and started to snap, I would have no [ability] to control it after that, so consequently decided it would be better to jump out. So, took it down south into friendly territory and jumped out in the vicinity of Pohang Airport, K-3, which was operated by U.S. marines.

[Assistant] Could you eject or did you jump?

[User] I ejected. The old-style shotgun-shell-powered ejection seat, 22 G seat.

[Assistant] Were you always wearing the parachute or did you have to put it on?

[User] We always had it on.

[Assistant] Strapped into the small of your back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I ejected. The old-style shotgun-shell-powered ejection seat, 22 G seat.

[Assistant] Were you always wearing the parachute or did you have to put it on?

[User] We always had it on.

[Assistant] Strapped into the small of your back?

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Had you had any parachute training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We always had it on.

[Assistant] Strapped into the small of your back?

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Had you had any parachute training?

[User] No, we had not, but one of the gentlemen in the squadron, one of my classmates, actually, was assigned a collateral duty of being the equipment and escape officer, so he went over to parachute school, as I remember, in El Centro, California, and came back and told us how to do it, if the need ever arose.

[Assistant] Did you get rescued quickly once you landed, with no problem?