[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, I did some trips with other volunteers. My first winter, I went to Ukraine with a group and we did Ukraine.

[Assistant] By train or how did you get there?

[User] We did it by train. We flew and then we we went by train to different places. And I mostly followed one of the volunteers. He was a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer from Russia. So he had lived and been to all these places. He was fluent in Russian. So he was sort of like our tour guide and I just kind of tagged along. But it was I thought Ukraine was beautiful with the churches and in the wintertime is a really great. And then I went out on another trip. To I went to Azerbaijan on a trip a year, a year through my service with a different group of volunteers, and they always stayed with expats who worked for, I think, BP, is that the oil company? And so we had a nice place to stay and that we saw Baku and we went out to even stayed at another Peace Corps volunteer’s site. I can't remember where it was, but we stayed with her and then we went off to this village that had one of those windy roads. You know, you see the bus in the bottom of the hill. So it's kind of scary.

[Assistant] So you traveled around the whole area?

[User] I went to I also took a trip to Armenia for a long weekend. And I went I went to Riga and then at the end of my service, I went with Christina Jones through Turkey. We spent like three weeks in Turkey and we did eastern Turkey. And then went around the bottom of Turkey and then we ended up in Istanbul and then we went to Bulgaria and we went to Hungary.

[Assistant] So you saw a lot of Eastern Europe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did it by train. We flew and then we we went by train to different places. And I mostly followed one of the volunteers. He was a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer from Russia. So he had lived and been to all these places. He was fluent in Russian. So he was sort of like our tour guide and I just kind of tagged along. But it was I thought Ukraine was beautiful with the churches and in the wintertime is a really great. And then I went out on another trip. To I went to Azerbaijan on a trip a year, a year through my service with a different group of volunteers, and they always stayed with expats who worked for, I think, BP, is that the oil company? And so we had a nice place to stay and that we saw Baku and we went out to even stayed at another Peace Corps volunteer’s site. I can't remember where it was, but we stayed with her and then we went off to this village that had one of those windy roads. You know, you see the bus in the bottom of the hill. So it's kind of scary.

[Assistant] So you traveled around the whole area?

[User] I went to I also took a trip to Armenia for a long weekend. And I went I went to Riga and then at the end of my service, I went with Christina Jones through Turkey. We spent like three weeks in Turkey and we did eastern Turkey. And then went around the bottom of Turkey and then we ended up in Istanbul and then we went to Bulgaria and we went to Hungary.

[Assistant] So you saw a lot of Eastern Europe?

[User] Saw a lot of it, yeah. So that's what I did for travel.

[Assistant] Yeah, so that was to, and this is on the way home. You did all of that. So as you think back, was it a good experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Saw a lot of it, yeah. So that's what I did for travel.

[Assistant] Yeah, so that was to, and this is on the way home. You did all of that. So as you think back, was it a good experience?

[User] Oh, yeah, I absolutely loved it. It was probably the happiest. My first year in service was the happiest year of my life so far I think. I loved living with that host family. And I loved, loved Mari, the little girl. I loved spending time with her and her host mother. And it was just a beautiful place to live. And, you know, it's difficult, like there's no place to shower. There's always those kind of hardships. But it was a beautiful, you felt a real sense of community. And just, yeah, it was great experience.

[Assistant] Good experience.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you think you contributed to the community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I absolutely loved it. It was probably the happiest. My first year in service was the happiest year of my life so far I think. I loved living with that host family. And I loved, loved Mari, the little girl. I loved spending time with her and her host mother. And it was just a beautiful place to live. And, you know, it's difficult, like there's no place to shower. There's always those kind of hardships. But it was a beautiful, you felt a real sense of community. And just, yeah, it was great experience.

[Assistant] Good experience.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you think you contributed to the community?

[User] I wish I, I wish I had been more effective in teaching English, I think. That was kind of new to me, but so it was I think I did a good job, but I think if I had more like too much teaching experience, I would have been more effective. But I was very proud of myself for renovating the regional hospital’s gynecology department. I thought that was, that's my biggest achievement. And then I enjoyed living with my host family and I hope to go see them maybe in a couple of years. Oh, well, it's been 10 years since I've been there.

[Assistant] So are you still in touch with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you think you contributed to the community?

[User] I wish I, I wish I had been more effective in teaching English, I think. That was kind of new to me, but so it was I think I did a good job, but I think if I had more like too much teaching experience, I would have been more effective. But I was very proud of myself for renovating the regional hospital’s gynecology department. I thought that was, that's my biggest achievement. And then I enjoyed living with my host family and I hope to go see them maybe in a couple of years. Oh, well, it's been 10 years since I've been there.

[Assistant] So are you still in touch with them?

[User] Oh yeah. Through Facebook and Skype, I call. I started calling them and my host sister, now she's like 19 and fluent in English. So she can.

[Assistant] You teach her the English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wish I, I wish I had been more effective in teaching English, I think. That was kind of new to me, but so it was I think I did a good job, but I think if I had more like too much teaching experience, I would have been more effective. But I was very proud of myself for renovating the regional hospital’s gynecology department. I thought that was, that's my biggest achievement. And then I enjoyed living with my host family and I hope to go see them maybe in a couple of years. Oh, well, it's been 10 years since I've been there.

[Assistant] So are you still in touch with them?

[User] Oh yeah. Through Facebook and Skype, I call. I started calling them and my host sister, now she's like 19 and fluent in English. So she can.

[Assistant] You teach her the English?

[User] No. And so that was kind of my my regret. Now that I see how fluent she she is, I wish I had been able to teach her more. But she's kind of young. When my parents came to visit near the end of my service, they gave Mari English children's videos, VHSs of cartoons and stuff like that. So I don't know if she ever used them. But, you know, that may have helped her learn. She loved them at the time anyway.

[Assistant] And have you kept up with Peace Corps since you've come back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Through Facebook and Skype, I call. I started calling them and my host sister, now she's like 19 and fluent in English. So she can.

[Assistant] You teach her the English?

[User] No. And so that was kind of my my regret. Now that I see how fluent she she is, I wish I had been able to teach her more. But she's kind of young. When my parents came to visit near the end of my service, they gave Mari English children's videos, VHSs of cartoons and stuff like that. So I don't know if she ever used them. But, you know, that may have helped her learn. She loved them at the time anyway.

[Assistant] And have you kept up with Peace Corps since you've come back?

[User] Yeah, yeah. I've been a member of Boston Area Peace Corps volunteer since about 2011. And I'm right now I'm the secretary for the club this year. So I go to their different events. And I this is my third Peace Corps Connect NPCA event. I come with my mother because she's also Returned Peace Corps Volunteer.

[Assistant] And what have you done since Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. And so that was kind of my my regret. Now that I see how fluent she she is, I wish I had been able to teach her more. But she's kind of young. When my parents came to visit near the end of my service, they gave Mari English children's videos, VHSs of cartoons and stuff like that. So I don't know if she ever used them. But, you know, that may have helped her learn. She loved them at the time anyway.

[Assistant] And have you kept up with Peace Corps since you've come back?

[User] Yeah, yeah. I've been a member of Boston Area Peace Corps volunteer since about 2011. And I'm right now I'm the secretary for the club this year. So I go to their different events. And I this is my third Peace Corps Connect NPCA event. I come with my mother because she's also Returned Peace Corps Volunteer.

[Assistant] And what have you done since Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, I did AmeriCorps in Syracuse, New York. Right now I work in medical imaging. In the last two years, I've done a lot of different temp jobs. I was a proctor for a few years testing students for education research, testing new types of curriculum. So I work for two different nonprofits doing that. And, um, I, I've done like different data entry work for Mathematica Policy Research in their nutrition department. But I ended up in medical imaging and I hope to go on and maybe get a graduate degree in economic development. So I plan to take some online courses on that and prepare for that to keep to keep up my economic development.

[Assistant] And go back overseas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I've been a member of Boston Area Peace Corps volunteer since about 2011. And I'm right now I'm the secretary for the club this year. So I go to their different events. And I this is my third Peace Corps Connect NPCA event. I come with my mother because she's also Returned Peace Corps Volunteer.

[Assistant] And what have you done since Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, I did AmeriCorps in Syracuse, New York. Right now I work in medical imaging. In the last two years, I've done a lot of different temp jobs. I was a proctor for a few years testing students for education research, testing new types of curriculum. So I work for two different nonprofits doing that. And, um, I, I've done like different data entry work for Mathematica Policy Research in their nutrition department. But I ended up in medical imaging and I hope to go on and maybe get a graduate degree in economic development. So I plan to take some online courses on that and prepare for that to keep to keep up my economic development.

[Assistant] And go back overseas?

[User] Yeah, I might. I might, yeah.

[Assistant] So it was a good experience for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I did AmeriCorps in Syracuse, New York. Right now I work in medical imaging. In the last two years, I've done a lot of different temp jobs. I was a proctor for a few years testing students for education research, testing new types of curriculum. So I work for two different nonprofits doing that. And, um, I, I've done like different data entry work for Mathematica Policy Research in their nutrition department. But I ended up in medical imaging and I hope to go on and maybe get a graduate degree in economic development. So I plan to take some online courses on that and prepare for that to keep to keep up my economic development.

[Assistant] And go back overseas?

[User] Yeah, I might. I might, yeah.

[Assistant] So it was a good experience for you.

[User] Yeah, oh, yeah, it's very positive. It was a wonderful experience. Yeah.

[Assistant] That's good. I'm just trying to think. You were you were in your 20s.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I might. I might, yeah.

[Assistant] So it was a good experience for you.

[User] Yeah, oh, yeah, it's very positive. It was a wonderful experience. Yeah.

[Assistant] That's good. I'm just trying to think. You were you were in your 20s.

[User] Late 20s.

[Assistant] Were you the first, no, you were Georgia 5.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, oh, yeah, it's very positive. It was a wonderful experience. Yeah.

[Assistant] That's good. I'm just trying to think. You were you were in your 20s.

[User] Late 20s.

[Assistant] Were you the first, no, you were Georgia 5.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So is Peace Corps still in in Georgia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Late 20s.

[Assistant] Were you the first, no, you were Georgia 5.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So is Peace Corps still in in Georgia?

[User] Yeah, there was the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008. So they did pull out Peace Corps then. But they returned. And I don't I don't actually know what G they're at now, but they have a new group every year.

[Assistant] Yeah, but are there other things you want to talk about, about your Peace Corps experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So is Peace Corps still in in Georgia?

[User] Yeah, there was the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008. So they did pull out Peace Corps then. But they returned. And I don't I don't actually know what G they're at now, but they have a new group every year.

[Assistant] Yeah, but are there other things you want to talk about, about your Peace Corps experience?

[User] Um. No, just that I I really loved that Peace Corps connected me with this host family because I plan to go back and visit them and they took care of me in the wintertime in Georgia. And I really wanted to have survived on my own. And I truly love them. And I'm so glad for that friendship.

[Assistant] So it was a good experience for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there was the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008. So they did pull out Peace Corps then. But they returned. And I don't I don't actually know what G they're at now, but they have a new group every year.

[Assistant] Yeah, but are there other things you want to talk about, about your Peace Corps experience?

[User] Um. No, just that I I really loved that Peace Corps connected me with this host family because I plan to go back and visit them and they took care of me in the wintertime in Georgia. And I really wanted to have survived on my own. And I truly love them. And I'm so glad for that friendship.

[Assistant] So it was a good experience for you?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it a good experience for them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. No, just that I I really loved that Peace Corps connected me with this host family because I plan to go back and visit them and they took care of me in the wintertime in Georgia. And I really wanted to have survived on my own. And I truly love them. And I'm so glad for that friendship.

[Assistant] So it was a good experience for you?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it a good experience for them?

[User] I hope so!

[Assistant] But I mean, not just you, but the whole exposure to Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it a good experience for them?

[User] I hope so!

[Assistant] But I mean, not just you, but the whole exposure to Americans.

[User] I think so. Yeah. I think it opened their world up.

[Assistant] Have many Americans been around?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so!

[Assistant] But I mean, not just you, but the whole exposure to Americans.

[User] I think so. Yeah. I think it opened their world up.

[Assistant] Have many Americans been around?

[User] So there was only, I think I was the fourth volunteer at my site. So that's my host family. My host mother didn't speak a word of English, so they knew. All volunteers and networking at the youth center so Tamiko was maybe more familiar with Americans and having them over. But for my host mother, I think it was a great experience, too. And for my sister and host brother. Yeah.

[Assistant] And you got the kind of support you needed from Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. Yeah. I think it opened their world up.

[Assistant] Have many Americans been around?

[User] So there was only, I think I was the fourth volunteer at my site. So that's my host family. My host mother didn't speak a word of English, so they knew. All volunteers and networking at the youth center so Tamiko was maybe more familiar with Americans and having them over. But for my host mother, I think it was a great experience, too. And for my sister and host brother. Yeah.

[Assistant] And you got the kind of support you needed from Peace Corps?

[User] Yeah, I didn't really reach out to them. Maybe I should have more. I did get funding through two projects. I and I also did a women's, oh I forgot. I did a women's information center through Spectry so I got her a computer and we, we published some material that we tried to distribute and we went to different went to the Azeri village and so was on, about women's health. I got some information in Georgia and on women's health and stuff like that from John Snow. So that was another project I did. And I got funding through the Peace Corps. So I think the Peace Corps was very supportive of work when I did reach out.

[Assistant] But you didn't need them that much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I didn't really reach out to them. Maybe I should have more. I did get funding through two projects. I and I also did a women's, oh I forgot. I did a women's information center through Spectry so I got her a computer and we, we published some material that we tried to distribute and we went to different went to the Azeri village and so was on, about women's health. I got some information in Georgia and on women's health and stuff like that from John Snow. So that was another project I did. And I got funding through the Peace Corps. So I think the Peace Corps was very supportive of work when I did reach out.

[Assistant] But you didn't need them that much.

[User] No, maybe I didn't. Yeah, I would go to the Peace Corps office just for comfort, maybe like every other week or so on the weekend.

[Assistant] Into Tbilisi?

[User] Into Tbilisi, because I was so close. But there I just check my email and maybe see some other volunteers and then go on my way to through Tbilisi and go home. So, yeah, I'd say I had a very nice room, a very nice view out onto. So it was a very nice place. Like some volunteers, they changed flights and stuff like that. I actually stayed at site most nights because I was so close to Tbilisi and I had this beautiful bedroom and very nice, hospitable host family. So it was a great experience.

[Assistant] Great. I don't have any more questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, maybe I didn't. Yeah, I would go to the Peace Corps office just for comfort, maybe like every other week or so on the weekend.

[Assistant] Into Tbilisi?

[User] Into Tbilisi, because I was so close. But there I just check my email and maybe see some other volunteers and then go on my way to through Tbilisi and go home. So, yeah, I'd say I had a very nice room, a very nice view out onto. So it was a very nice place. Like some volunteers, they changed flights and stuff like that. I actually stayed at site most nights because I was so close to Tbilisi and I had this beautiful bedroom and very nice, hospitable host family. So it was a great experience.

[Assistant] Great. I don't have any more questions.

[User] OK.

[Assistant] So thank you for the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I thought that particularly in Mercury that some of that stuff, if not in the Mercury flights, later flights, would need a pool, which under Washington terms is a very well-defined thing, and I knew about that. And I wanted to make sure that it was very—and all the proper hands were laid on it and anointed. I went up and started, I guess, on the Senate side of the press gallery, because they had—I think they’d started a news pool for George Washington or somebody a couple of hundred years earlier, and I knew from history that that’s better, that’s the place to start. And ran around and got a lot of—and everybody kept saying, “Why do we need a news pool? There are only six or eight hundred still photographers in the world. We could all fit on the deck of a carrier.” But they began to see it might have an advantage, and we could identify that this will be a pool operation where the numbers would be.\n\n It went through, and it was easier getting it through all of the official Washington press stuff than it was through NASA, which as quickly as it started flying stuff, started developing a lot of other things that we’ll probably get into if we talk fast.\n\n Where have you got [Frank] Borman hung out?

[Assistant] I’m sorry?

[User] You’re going to Las Cruces?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You’re not going to talk to Frank Borman? He’ll be very upset.

[Assistant] Well, we came to talk to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re going to Las Cruces?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You’re not going to talk to Frank Borman? He’ll be very upset.

[Assistant] Well, we came to talk to you.

[User] That’s the way it goes, though. People come here and then they go—I always hear things about Borman. We don’t talk much to each other.

[Assistant] You just hear it from other people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re not going to talk to Frank Borman? He’ll be very upset.

[Assistant] Well, we came to talk to you.

[User] That’s the way it goes, though. People come here and then they go—I always hear things about Borman. We don’t talk much to each other.

[Assistant] You just hear it from other people.

[User] But I hear it from other people or his wife. Did he leave something on—anyhoo.

[Assistant] In 1963, you had the chance to come to Houston. How did that come about, and what was your position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Four days, yes.

[Assistant] Did you do the commentary on that?

[User] Oh yes. We did three out of the Cape, and it was kind of like another Mercury flight, because it only lasted three revs [revolutions]. It was typical of Mercury. It was just kind of get it up and get it down, and let’s declare a big victory, first down or something.

[Assistant] How did you learn the commentary?

[User] We’d been doing a lot of that in Mercury.

[Assistant] Had you done any commentary in Mercury?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was just a fantastic trip. It was good to see the countryside and the people, and it reminded me a lot of what you might think 1930s U.S. would be like. Anyway, a very good experience.

[Assistant] You said this was just a simulation for the entire network.

[User] Yes. Yes, and we had teams at all the sites, one at Hawaii, one out on ships. What would happen, the simulation people that were with us, when it was time for the spacecraft to pass overhead, they would start a tape, and the tape would play in spacecraft data. Then they would play the part of the astronauts so our CapCom could talk back and forth to them. They had a script that they were following on what to say, what problems they might have, how they would describe the problems, everything. So, quite an experience. I guess we were there a couple of weeks running the sim.

[Assistant] Now, how did that work with—since you said they would play tapes for what was happening, whereas in later years you were able to use the computers and the computers were able to react to whatever changes you would make or comments that would have, how would that work with the tape running? Would there be times that a decision that the controllers would make that would conflict with what the simulations people were expecting to happen or would things go pretty—I mean, how much information was on the tape, I guess is what I’m asking, and how well would that correspond to the simulation?

[User] Your standard telemetry, cabin temperature, cabin pressure, battery voltages, currents, and those values, I think were capable of being tweaked somewhat by the simulation guy. But they were also part of a script, so if some voltage was supposed to fall off at such and such a time, it was already on tape that it was going to fall off at that time. But I do think that the simulations folks had a certain amount of capability to tweak some of the values and stuff.

[Assistant] Would you run a simulation for the mission from start to finish then for this particular—with everyone going out to the different remote sites for—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, and we had teams at all the sites, one at Hawaii, one out on ships. What would happen, the simulation people that were with us, when it was time for the spacecraft to pass overhead, they would start a tape, and the tape would play in spacecraft data. Then they would play the part of the astronauts so our CapCom could talk back and forth to them. They had a script that they were following on what to say, what problems they might have, how they would describe the problems, everything. So, quite an experience. I guess we were there a couple of weeks running the sim.

[Assistant] Now, how did that work with—since you said they would play tapes for what was happening, whereas in later years you were able to use the computers and the computers were able to react to whatever changes you would make or comments that would have, how would that work with the tape running? Would there be times that a decision that the controllers would make that would conflict with what the simulations people were expecting to happen or would things go pretty—I mean, how much information was on the tape, I guess is what I’m asking, and how well would that correspond to the simulation?

[User] Your standard telemetry, cabin temperature, cabin pressure, battery voltages, currents, and those values, I think were capable of being tweaked somewhat by the simulation guy. But they were also part of a script, so if some voltage was supposed to fall off at such and such a time, it was already on tape that it was going to fall off at that time. But I do think that the simulations folks had a certain amount of capability to tweak some of the values and stuff.

[Assistant] Would you run a simulation for the mission from start to finish then for this particular—with everyone going out to the different remote sites for—

[User] Yes. Oh, yes. The mission was only three orbits, so that was over with pretty quick.

[Assistant] Did you run it more than once during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Your standard telemetry, cabin temperature, cabin pressure, battery voltages, currents, and those values, I think were capable of being tweaked somewhat by the simulation guy. But they were also part of a script, so if some voltage was supposed to fall off at such and such a time, it was already on tape that it was going to fall off at that time. But I do think that the simulations folks had a certain amount of capability to tweak some of the values and stuff.

[Assistant] Would you run a simulation for the mission from start to finish then for this particular—with everyone going out to the different remote sites for—

[User] Yes. Oh, yes. The mission was only three orbits, so that was over with pretty quick.

[Assistant] Did you run it more than once during that time?

[User] Oh, yes, yes. We would run it day after day after day and different scenarios, of course, each time.

[Assistant] So you said you stayed out there for a couple weeks then doing this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, yes. The mission was only three orbits, so that was over with pretty quick.

[Assistant] Did you run it more than once during that time?

[User] Oh, yes, yes. We would run it day after day after day and different scenarios, of course, each time.

[Assistant] So you said you stayed out there for a couple weeks then doing this.

[User] My sense it was, yes, ten days to two weeks, something like that. Then the way we traded data back then was that we had what was called summary messages. When I at the remote site got ready to send a summary message, there was a button on the console you’d push, and it would strip out the value for cabin pressure right at that instant, cabin temperature, different voltages, just one sample of that one data, strip it out and send it on teletype to all the other remote sites and to the MCC [Mission Control Center] at the Cape. So that’s the way we kept track of what everybody else was reading and some sort of a history of what had happened at the various sites, was it was all done by teletype.

[Assistant] Very different than today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, yes. We would run it day after day after day and different scenarios, of course, each time.

[Assistant] So you said you stayed out there for a couple weeks then doing this.

[User] My sense it was, yes, ten days to two weeks, something like that. Then the way we traded data back then was that we had what was called summary messages. When I at the remote site got ready to send a summary message, there was a button on the console you’d push, and it would strip out the value for cabin pressure right at that instant, cabin temperature, different voltages, just one sample of that one data, strip it out and send it on teletype to all the other remote sites and to the MCC [Mission Control Center] at the Cape. So that’s the way we kept track of what everybody else was reading and some sort of a history of what had happened at the various sites, was it was all done by teletype.

[Assistant] Very different than today.

[User] Yes. Anyway, after NS-1, I guess I did something right. They pulled me off the remote sites and we started getting ready to man up the control center, both in Florida and then, of course, we were building the one here at JSC. So by the time Gemini II rolled around—Gemini II was an unmanned suborbital lob of a Gemini capsule down range in Florida. By the time Gemini II rolled around, we had the capability here in Houston to monitor the flights, although the control center hadn’t really been wrung out. So we sent one team to Florida to actually control it, and another team, and I was part of the team that stayed here and wrung out the control center, did that for Gemini II.\n\n Then the first Gemini flight, Gemini III, we did the same thing. We had the actual controlling team was in Florida, but we had a full team here in Houston in the control center. Then by the time Gemini IV rolled around, we were totally in Houston. We had closed down the control center in Florida, and everybody was totally here by then.

[Assistant] So at this point you were manning the EECOM console?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Anyway, after NS-1, I guess I did something right. They pulled me off the remote sites and we started getting ready to man up the control center, both in Florida and then, of course, we were building the one here at JSC. So by the time Gemini II rolled around—Gemini II was an unmanned suborbital lob of a Gemini capsule down range in Florida. By the time Gemini II rolled around, we had the capability here in Houston to monitor the flights, although the control center hadn’t really been wrung out. So we sent one team to Florida to actually control it, and another team, and I was part of the team that stayed here and wrung out the control center, did that for Gemini II.\n\n Then the first Gemini flight, Gemini III, we did the same thing. We had the actual controlling team was in Florida, but we had a full team here in Houston in the control center. Then by the time Gemini IV rolled around, we were totally in Houston. We had closed down the control center in Florida, and everybody was totally here by then.

[Assistant] So at this point you were manning the EECOM console?

[User] Yes. The Gemini systems were split into two portions. It had GNC—guidance, navigation and control—and then sort of everything else was the EECOM. EECOM stood for electrical, environmental, and communications. But we basically had all the systems that didn’t have anything to do with guidance or navigation or controls.

[Assistant] Which is quite a few systems.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you become—leading up to this point and holding such a role, how did you become so familiar with all of the different spacecraft systems to then be able to monitor them so carefully during the flights? What was your training like up until—you mentioned the simulation, obviously going out to the remote site and going through things very detailed there, but how did you gain that familiarity with the spacecraft systems itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you become—leading up to this point and holding such a role, how did you become so familiar with all of the different spacecraft systems to then be able to monitor them so carefully during the flights? What was your training like up until—you mentioned the simulation, obviously going out to the remote site and going through things very detailed there, but how did you gain that familiarity with the spacecraft systems itself?

[User] We had some classes, that I recall, some training classes. We did an awful lot of just training on our own. We drew systems handbooks, they were called. They were schematics that we needed in order to troubleshoot the systems onboard, and we’d draw these ourselves using the vendor schematics, and put them in our own book and publish them. So that really helps you learn the systems an awful lot that way.\n\n We had some McDonnell Douglas people also assigned to our office. They were working here with us. So they were very, very helpful in any kind of questions you had out of the company that you needed about the spacecraft or whatever. The guys were good about getting those. We wrote mission rules that said for loss of this, you’ll do that. In order to write that rule, you had to go back and go through the schematics and study and say, well, what could cause you to lose that certain function.\n\n But there was not the formal training that we have nowadays. We didn’t have the certification that’s now required. That came later. I guess in Apollo is when we started certifying people. We had the simulations over and over and over again with the guys like [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.]. Kraft could ask questions that would make you go study and find things out. Great guy. Great guy.

[Assistant] I guess that is a good way to learn is to going out and looking for it rather—

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] —than just having somebody—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had some classes, that I recall, some training classes. We did an awful lot of just training on our own. We drew systems handbooks, they were called. They were schematics that we needed in order to troubleshoot the systems onboard, and we’d draw these ourselves using the vendor schematics, and put them in our own book and publish them. So that really helps you learn the systems an awful lot that way.\n\n We had some McDonnell Douglas people also assigned to our office. They were working here with us. So they were very, very helpful in any kind of questions you had out of the company that you needed about the spacecraft or whatever. The guys were good about getting those. We wrote mission rules that said for loss of this, you’ll do that. In order to write that rule, you had to go back and go through the schematics and study and say, well, what could cause you to lose that certain function.\n\n But there was not the formal training that we have nowadays. We didn’t have the certification that’s now required. That came later. I guess in Apollo is when we started certifying people. We had the simulations over and over and over again with the guys like [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.]. Kraft could ask questions that would make you go study and find things out. Great guy. Great guy.

[Assistant] I guess that is a good way to learn is to going out and looking for it rather—

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] —than just having somebody—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —tell you real quickly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] —than just having somebody—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —tell you real quickly.

[User] Yes. Yes. There was an awful lot of “what if” games played up and down the halls. If you stumbled across something, a quirky thing on maybe how a system worked or something, you were anxious to go running down the hall and tell all your buddies, “Hey, look at this,” and “What do you think of this?” There was an awful lot of that that went on, so we exchanged a lot of ideas.

[Assistant] Certainly a very important part of it is all the systems were so closely integrated that you had to share that information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —tell you real quickly.

[User] Yes. Yes. There was an awful lot of “what if” games played up and down the halls. If you stumbled across something, a quirky thing on maybe how a system worked or something, you were anxious to go running down the hall and tell all your buddies, “Hey, look at this,” and “What do you think of this?” There was an awful lot of that that went on, so we exchanged a lot of ideas.

[Assistant] Certainly a very important part of it is all the systems were so closely integrated that you had to share that information.

[User] Yes. That was one of the neat things especially about the electrical system, because it touched all the other systems. The cooling system, the same way, it touched all the other systems, so, yes, that forced you to not only learn your systems, but also learn a little bit about everybody else’s. So that was good.

[Assistant] You mentioned simulation after simulation, that that was a very key part of all of this. As you were gearing up, as the control center was coming on line for Gemini II, Gemini III, Gemini IV, how many simulations would you run before a mission, or did it vary depending on what was happening for that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was one of the neat things especially about the electrical system, because it touched all the other systems. The cooling system, the same way, it touched all the other systems, so, yes, that forced you to not only learn your systems, but also learn a little bit about everybody else’s. So that was good.

[Assistant] You mentioned simulation after simulation, that that was a very key part of all of this. As you were gearing up, as the control center was coming on line for Gemini II, Gemini III, Gemini IV, how many simulations would you run before a mission, or did it vary depending on what was happening for that mission?

[User] How many would we run for a mission. I don’t know. That would be hard to say. I would guess—I don’t know. Let me talk on here a little bit.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You would tend to simulate mission phases like ascent, launch. An ascent sim could be about ten minutes long. You’d run one, and you’d debrief that, and then you’d turn the equipment around and run another one. You just ran ascent sims one after the other after the other. So you could probably get at least a dozen ascent sims in in a day. So now maybe tomorrow you would run entry sims. So you tended to simulate the different phases.\n\n Of course, with the shorter missions with like the three days that we were—is it three days or three orbits? I guess three orbits that we were doing on Gemini, the first one anyway, those you’d run—I don’t recall. I’m sure we’d run—I don’t recall ever doing more than one a day, but we may have. We may have. Yes, I don’t recall how we’d do that.

[Assistant] That’s all right. Certainly you were, as you said, doing a number of different ones at different times with the different phases.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How many would we run for a mission. I don’t know. That would be hard to say. I would guess—I don’t know. Let me talk on here a little bit.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You would tend to simulate mission phases like ascent, launch. An ascent sim could be about ten minutes long. You’d run one, and you’d debrief that, and then you’d turn the equipment around and run another one. You just ran ascent sims one after the other after the other. So you could probably get at least a dozen ascent sims in in a day. So now maybe tomorrow you would run entry sims. So you tended to simulate the different phases.\n\n Of course, with the shorter missions with like the three days that we were—is it three days or three orbits? I guess three orbits that we were doing on Gemini, the first one anyway, those you’d run—I don’t recall. I’m sure we’d run—I don’t recall ever doing more than one a day, but we may have. We may have. Yes, I don’t recall how we’d do that.

[Assistant] That’s all right. Certainly you were, as you said, doing a number of different ones at different times with the different phases.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You’d obviously be going between doing simulations and then doing some of this other training and evaluating and looking at mission rules during times that you weren’t doing simulations or weren’t actually flying a mission. Can you think of about how many days out of the week, maybe, that you would be or did it all just kind of blend together, that you would just move from one to the other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You would tend to simulate mission phases like ascent, launch. An ascent sim could be about ten minutes long. You’d run one, and you’d debrief that, and then you’d turn the equipment around and run another one. You just ran ascent sims one after the other after the other. So you could probably get at least a dozen ascent sims in in a day. So now maybe tomorrow you would run entry sims. So you tended to simulate the different phases.\n\n Of course, with the shorter missions with like the three days that we were—is it three days or three orbits? I guess three orbits that we were doing on Gemini, the first one anyway, those you’d run—I don’t recall. I’m sure we’d run—I don’t recall ever doing more than one a day, but we may have. We may have. Yes, I don’t recall how we’d do that.

[Assistant] That’s all right. Certainly you were, as you said, doing a number of different ones at different times with the different phases.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You’d obviously be going between doing simulations and then doing some of this other training and evaluating and looking at mission rules during times that you weren’t doing simulations or weren’t actually flying a mission. Can you think of about how many days out of the week, maybe, that you would be or did it all just kind of blend together, that you would just move from one to the other?

[User] My sense is it would all sort of blend together. Like there might be a couple of EECOMs, and maybe I’d go run sims in the morning and John [W.] Aaron or somebody would come run them in the afternoon or something to that effect. Or maybe one of us would sit there and watch the other one.

[Assistant] So you were trading off in all these?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You’d obviously be going between doing simulations and then doing some of this other training and evaluating and looking at mission rules during times that you weren’t doing simulations or weren’t actually flying a mission. Can you think of about how many days out of the week, maybe, that you would be or did it all just kind of blend together, that you would just move from one to the other?

[User] My sense is it would all sort of blend together. Like there might be a couple of EECOMs, and maybe I’d go run sims in the morning and John [W.] Aaron or somebody would come run them in the afternoon or something to that effect. Or maybe one of us would sit there and watch the other one.

[Assistant] So you were trading off in all these?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Interesting. Well, you were building up to talk about Gemini IV, as you had worked your way up through Gemini II and III and the center coming on line and Gemini IV was the first that was actually run full out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My sense is it would all sort of blend together. Like there might be a couple of EECOMs, and maybe I’d go run sims in the morning and John [W.] Aaron or somebody would come run them in the afternoon or something to that effect. Or maybe one of us would sit there and watch the other one.

[Assistant] So you were trading off in all these?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Interesting. Well, you were building up to talk about Gemini IV, as you had worked your way up through Gemini II and III and the center coming on line and Gemini IV was the first that was actually run full out.

[User] Yes, Gemini IV was the first that was totally run here out of Houston. We had wrung out the control center as best we could. We’d do everything we could think of to try and bring it to its knees, pushing three or four command buttons all at the same time and stuff, just anything we could to try and mess it up. We thought we’d given it a pretty good checking out.\n\n Gemini IV was our first EVA [extravehicular activity] flight. That’s when Ed [Edward H.] White [II] went outside. Gemini V then was first long-duration flight. Then came VII, which was real long. We rendezvoused with Gemini VI on that one, called it Gemini 76. Gemini VI was supposed to rendezvous with an Agena, and the Agena went in the water, if I recall. So we then launched VI, and we had VII already up there. We launched VI up, and the two of them rendezvoused together—came into close contact, didn’t actually touch or anything, but came into close contact.

[Assistant] How did that work from a monitoring standpoint, especially for your job? Here you were looking at so many of the systems of the spacecraft and you had two of them up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s a good point. As I recall, we only had the capability of really looking at one in real time. So we would have our history data, I guess, from one spacecraft and our real-time data from another one. But I don’t think we could look at both of them in real time at the same time. We may have split it up to where—I don’t know. I can’t remember if we alternated among remote sites like said, “Okay, Corpus Christi, you look at VI,” and, “Guaymas, Mexico, you look at VII,” or how we did that. But I do recall out here in Houston we could only look at one of them in real time.\n\n We could swap off from that. We could look at one maybe this pass and the next pass look at the other one. We could see it live here in Houston. From the time it came as they were coming up the coast, we could see it as it came down over Corpus and then all the way across the lower part of the U.S. and out in the Caribbean, some of the tracking stations out there, we could still get data back into here. But then we’d lose them again, and we’d have to wait till they came up over another remote site to get our summary message.

[Assistant] So still definitely a growing process for the network and monitoring the spacecraft.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Obvious for Apollo there would later be that capability to look at both spacecraft live at the same time.

[User] Yes. And then of course as we went to the Moon and you got out a given number of miles, then one of the deep space sites always had them, the site of Madrid [Spain] or the one in Goldstone out in California or the one in Australia. I can’t think its name right, now, but Canberra, maybe. One of those sites would always see, always had the spacecraft in sight when we were on our way out to the Moon. So that was nice.

[Assistant] Certainly very different than what you’ve just been describing for Gemini.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Obvious for Apollo there would later be that capability to look at both spacecraft live at the same time.

[User] Yes. And then of course as we went to the Moon and you got out a given number of miles, then one of the deep space sites always had them, the site of Madrid [Spain] or the one in Goldstone out in California or the one in Australia. I can’t think its name right, now, but Canberra, maybe. One of those sites would always see, always had the spacecraft in sight when we were on our way out to the Moon. So that was nice.

[Assistant] Certainly very different than what you’ve just been describing for Gemini.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Going back a little bit to the Gemini IV mission, you mentioned that it was the first EVA. At what point did you learn that the EVA was actually going to be flown on this mission, and how did that tie in with your simulations, and actually how closely did you as an EECOM were you involved with the EVA aspect of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t. I don’t. It may have been then that we were consolidating the engineering support for the missions under one entity or organization—and we’ll talk about this later on when we talk about SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis Room]—but where flight controllers could go to pick the brains of the engineers who actually designed and tested all this equipment. So it may be that the Crew Systems guy went off then to be a part of that. But I sure don’t recall them in later Gemini. I hadn’t thought about that before.

[Assistant] That’s certainly interesting because it does sound like they served a good role at least for the first ones giving that. Although I guess with the back rooms and the SPAN and the MER [Mission Evaluation Room], as we’ll talk about, there was that support still so they hopefully were in there and giving that.

[User] SPAN back in those days was totally run by the contractor, by McDonnell Douglas. In fact, some very high, high-powered McDonnell Douglas people would come down and man the console in the back and support us.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting. We’ve talked about Gemini 76 now, which was a joint mission, which certainly was interesting in that aspect of having the two spacecraft up and the one going such a long duration.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then began to get into the later Gemini missions where they were doing EVAs more regularly and discovering the challenges of doing that, where they were having difficulties working, holding their bodies steady while they were trying to do a task. Again from your standpoint as an EECOM, where you were monitoring these systems and helping monitor what was going on with the crew, what was your involvement as they were having these difficulties, and what were the discussions like in the control room over that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] SPAN back in those days was totally run by the contractor, by McDonnell Douglas. In fact, some very high, high-powered McDonnell Douglas people would come down and man the console in the back and support us.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting. We’ve talked about Gemini 76 now, which was a joint mission, which certainly was interesting in that aspect of having the two spacecraft up and the one going such a long duration.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then began to get into the later Gemini missions where they were doing EVAs more regularly and discovering the challenges of doing that, where they were having difficulties working, holding their bodies steady while they were trying to do a task. Again from your standpoint as an EECOM, where you were monitoring these systems and helping monitor what was going on with the crew, what was your involvement as they were having these difficulties, and what were the discussions like in the control room over that?

[User] I don’t recall a lot of telemetry on the EVAs. I’m sure the doctors had probably heart rates, but I don’t recall that we had very much telemetry. I’m sure we had a suit pressure maybe and not much else. So most of the discussions were along human factors lines. It was almost a medical kind of a thing, rather than a systems kind of a thing, that I recall anyway.

[Assistant] Okay. That makes sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then began to get into the later Gemini missions where they were doing EVAs more regularly and discovering the challenges of doing that, where they were having difficulties working, holding their bodies steady while they were trying to do a task. Again from your standpoint as an EECOM, where you were monitoring these systems and helping monitor what was going on with the crew, what was your involvement as they were having these difficulties, and what were the discussions like in the control room over that?

[User] I don’t recall a lot of telemetry on the EVAs. I’m sure the doctors had probably heart rates, but I don’t recall that we had very much telemetry. I’m sure we had a suit pressure maybe and not much else. So most of the discussions were along human factors lines. It was almost a medical kind of a thing, rather than a systems kind of a thing, that I recall anyway.

[Assistant] Okay. That makes sense.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because certainly what they were experiencing was them, themselves, rather than the equipment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t recall a lot of telemetry on the EVAs. I’m sure the doctors had probably heart rates, but I don’t recall that we had very much telemetry. I’m sure we had a suit pressure maybe and not much else. So most of the discussions were along human factors lines. It was almost a medical kind of a thing, rather than a systems kind of a thing, that I recall anyway.

[Assistant] Okay. That makes sense.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because certainly what they were experiencing was them, themselves, rather than the equipment.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, do you have any particular thoughts on some of the later Gemini missions—Gemini VIII which had to reenter early, or IX, X, XI, and XII, they obviously did get all the EVA going well. Do you have any thoughts from those or any experiences that you’d like to comment on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because certainly what they were experiencing was them, themselves, rather than the equipment.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, do you have any particular thoughts on some of the later Gemini missions—Gemini VIII which had to reenter early, or IX, X, XI, and XII, they obviously did get all the EVA going well. Do you have any thoughts from those or any experiences that you’d like to comment on?

[User] Gemini VIII was the one that we had to enter early. It was out over the Pacific, if I recall. We had docked with the Agena, and we were, I guess, afraid of the Agena. We were scared to death of it. So when the whole stack started tumbling, everybody’s first thought was that it’s the Agena. Turns out it was Gemini that was doing it, and the Agena was trying to hold it still. But they turned off the Agena, and then they really went wild. But anyway, got the thing under control and got them back, but that was a close call. It didn’t really involve any of our systems.\n\n Here again, we were seeing summary messages from these remote sites, so you could hear the voice when a crew was over a site, but to look at the telemetry and see what was going on, we just didn’t have that capability back then, at least not back here in Houston. Now, the people at the remote site could see it when it came over, but we got to see the summary message.

[Assistant] You mentioned an interesting point there, that everyone was unsure about the Agena, and it was something new that hadn’t been done before, and there had been some problems leading up, but the fact that you mention that specifically, what do you recall about the concerns regarding the Agena?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, do you have any particular thoughts on some of the later Gemini missions—Gemini VIII which had to reenter early, or IX, X, XI, and XII, they obviously did get all the EVA going well. Do you have any thoughts from those or any experiences that you’d like to comment on?

[User] Gemini VIII was the one that we had to enter early. It was out over the Pacific, if I recall. We had docked with the Agena, and we were, I guess, afraid of the Agena. We were scared to death of it. So when the whole stack started tumbling, everybody’s first thought was that it’s the Agena. Turns out it was Gemini that was doing it, and the Agena was trying to hold it still. But they turned off the Agena, and then they really went wild. But anyway, got the thing under control and got them back, but that was a close call. It didn’t really involve any of our systems.\n\n Here again, we were seeing summary messages from these remote sites, so you could hear the voice when a crew was over a site, but to look at the telemetry and see what was going on, we just didn’t have that capability back then, at least not back here in Houston. Now, the people at the remote site could see it when it came over, but we got to see the summary message.

[Assistant] You mentioned an interesting point there, that everyone was unsure about the Agena, and it was something new that hadn’t been done before, and there had been some problems leading up, but the fact that you mention that specifically, what do you recall about the concerns regarding the Agena?

[User] Nothing specific, and I’m not even sure if I’m telling you what I recall from back then or what I’ve since learned that our thought process was.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, we’ve heard the same before—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gemini VIII was the one that we had to enter early. It was out over the Pacific, if I recall. We had docked with the Agena, and we were, I guess, afraid of the Agena. We were scared to death of it. So when the whole stack started tumbling, everybody’s first thought was that it’s the Agena. Turns out it was Gemini that was doing it, and the Agena was trying to hold it still. But they turned off the Agena, and then they really went wild. But anyway, got the thing under control and got them back, but that was a close call. It didn’t really involve any of our systems.\n\n Here again, we were seeing summary messages from these remote sites, so you could hear the voice when a crew was over a site, but to look at the telemetry and see what was going on, we just didn’t have that capability back then, at least not back here in Houston. Now, the people at the remote site could see it when it came over, but we got to see the summary message.

[Assistant] You mentioned an interesting point there, that everyone was unsure about the Agena, and it was something new that hadn’t been done before, and there had been some problems leading up, but the fact that you mention that specifically, what do you recall about the concerns regarding the Agena?

[User] Nothing specific, and I’m not even sure if I’m telling you what I recall from back then or what I’ve since learned that our thought process was.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, we’ve heard the same before—

[User] Okay. I don’t doubt that.

[Assistant] —that there was concern about it, as we’ve talked to a few people and we’ve been able to talk to some people that specifically worked on the Agena systems, too, so—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing specific, and I’m not even sure if I’m telling you what I recall from back then or what I’ve since learned that our thought process was.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, we’ve heard the same before—

[User] Okay. I don’t doubt that.

[Assistant] —that there was concern about it, as we’ve talked to a few people and we’ve been able to talk to some people that specifically worked on the Agena systems, too, so—

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —it’s been interesting. But, yes, you’re not the only one that’s had that thought. Well, as you were beginning to move from Gemini into Apollo, what was the transition process like? What was your involvement in getting the control center lined up for this new ability, to be able to monitor two spacecraft, or were you still just really focused on the missions and were other people taking care of that transition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —it’s been interesting. But, yes, you’re not the only one that’s had that thought. Well, as you were beginning to move from Gemini into Apollo, what was the transition process like? What was your involvement in getting the control center lined up for this new ability, to be able to monitor two spacecraft, or were you still just really focused on the missions and were other people taking care of that transition?

[User] While we were flying Gemini, there was another group just like us that were getting ready for Apollo. In fact, I remember one of the choices I was given when I came to work was Gemini or Apollo, and I picked Gemini, probably because it was the active thing going right now, and I could see that’s where the action was going to be for a while.\n\n As it turned out, I’m sure glad I did, because as we started winding down Gemini and getting ready to go to Apollo, the folks that had been working Apollo all this time, they had the systems knowledge, but my sense was back then that we had the operations knowledge, all this experience that we had gained. I just remember thinking at the time that, to me, was much more valuable than the knowledge of the spacecraft systems that those folks had. So I was glad that I’d made that choice, or if I didn’t make it, I was glad somebody had pointed me in that direction.\n\n But as we got into Apollo, a lot of the Agena folks merged into the lunar module, the LM organization, and the Gemini folks went to the CSM [command and service module]. I guess Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks was the branch chief back then in early Apollo, and Arnie [Arnold D. Aldrich] was the section head of CSM, and I guess Jim [James E.] Hannigan maybe had the section of LM controllers, LM systems people.

[Assistant] At what point was the decision made to create the new controller positions for the lunar module? I believe it was—

[User] TELMU [Telemetry and EVA Systems Engineer].

[Assistant] —TELMU and then—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] While we were flying Gemini, there was another group just like us that were getting ready for Apollo. In fact, I remember one of the choices I was given when I came to work was Gemini or Apollo, and I picked Gemini, probably because it was the active thing going right now, and I could see that’s where the action was going to be for a while.\n\n As it turned out, I’m sure glad I did, because as we started winding down Gemini and getting ready to go to Apollo, the folks that had been working Apollo all this time, they had the systems knowledge, but my sense was back then that we had the operations knowledge, all this experience that we had gained. I just remember thinking at the time that, to me, was much more valuable than the knowledge of the spacecraft systems that those folks had. So I was glad that I’d made that choice, or if I didn’t make it, I was glad somebody had pointed me in that direction.\n\n But as we got into Apollo, a lot of the Agena folks merged into the lunar module, the LM organization, and the Gemini folks went to the CSM [command and service module]. I guess Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks was the branch chief back then in early Apollo, and Arnie [Arnold D. Aldrich] was the section head of CSM, and I guess Jim [James E.] Hannigan maybe had the section of LM controllers, LM systems people.

[Assistant] At what point was the decision made to create the new controller positions for the lunar module? I believe it was—

[User] TELMU [Telemetry and EVA Systems Engineer].

[Assistant] —TELMU and then—

[User] [LM] Control.

[Assistant] Yes. Was that about this time frame?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, my sense is they were always there.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Just like you had EECOM and GNC on the CSM side, then you had TELMU and Control on the LM side.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So, yes, I think they came—somebody saw that that split had worked pretty well in Gemini and was working pretty well in early Apollo, so I think it was the natural thing to do, to split it that way with the LM also.

[Assistant] Something rather than having to try to have one person monitoring all the systems for both.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just like you had EECOM and GNC on the CSM side, then you had TELMU and Control on the LM side.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So, yes, I think they came—somebody saw that that split had worked pretty well in Gemini and was working pretty well in early Apollo, so I think it was the natural thing to do, to split it that way with the LM also.

[Assistant] Something rather than having to try to have one person monitoring all the systems for both.

[User] Yes. That just would have been too much.

[Assistant] Well, as you came into Apollo then, you had been working Gemini, as you said, and other people had been getting familiar with the Apollo systems, but then you still had that operations knowledge from Gemini that needed to translate over into Apollo. At what point then did you begin doing simulations for Apollo? Was it after Gemini XII in your case that you began to get into that, or did you even start a little bit before that time frame?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yes, I think they came—somebody saw that that split had worked pretty well in Gemini and was working pretty well in early Apollo, so I think it was the natural thing to do, to split it that way with the LM also.

[Assistant] Something rather than having to try to have one person monitoring all the systems for both.

[User] Yes. That just would have been too much.

[Assistant] Well, as you came into Apollo then, you had been working Gemini, as you said, and other people had been getting familiar with the Apollo systems, but then you still had that operations knowledge from Gemini that needed to translate over into Apollo. At what point then did you begin doing simulations for Apollo? Was it after Gemini XII in your case that you began to get into that, or did you even start a little bit before that time frame?

[User] Our lead EECOM guy, a fellow by the name of Dick Glover, my sense is that as we wound down Gemini, that probably Dick didn’t fly the last few Gemini missions, that he went off to do Apollo stuff. So, yes, we continued on with the Gemini, myself, John Aaron, Merlin [Walter M.] Merritt. We were the EECOMs on the last few Gemini missions. My sense is that Glover was off doing the Apollo thing. I think that’s probably the way it happened. He was off getting that ready.\n\n The McDAC [McDonnell Aircraft Company] people that I mentioned that had worked with us on Gemini, we had a similar contingent working for Rockwell [North American Rockwell Corp.]. The lunar module side of the house had a contingent from Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corp.]. The guys were in the process of building handbooks and what have you and writing mission rules already and stuff, so Glover went off to head up that effort, and we finished up Gemini along with sticking our nose in the Apollo stuff every now. But, yes, we concentrated on the latter part of the Gemini.

[Assistant] Okay. And then just transitioned right into Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That just would have been too much.

[Assistant] Well, as you came into Apollo then, you had been working Gemini, as you said, and other people had been getting familiar with the Apollo systems, but then you still had that operations knowledge from Gemini that needed to translate over into Apollo. At what point then did you begin doing simulations for Apollo? Was it after Gemini XII in your case that you began to get into that, or did you even start a little bit before that time frame?

[User] Our lead EECOM guy, a fellow by the name of Dick Glover, my sense is that as we wound down Gemini, that probably Dick didn’t fly the last few Gemini missions, that he went off to do Apollo stuff. So, yes, we continued on with the Gemini, myself, John Aaron, Merlin [Walter M.] Merritt. We were the EECOMs on the last few Gemini missions. My sense is that Glover was off doing the Apollo thing. I think that’s probably the way it happened. He was off getting that ready.\n\n The McDAC [McDonnell Aircraft Company] people that I mentioned that had worked with us on Gemini, we had a similar contingent working for Rockwell [North American Rockwell Corp.]. The lunar module side of the house had a contingent from Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corp.]. The guys were in the process of building handbooks and what have you and writing mission rules already and stuff, so Glover went off to head up that effort, and we finished up Gemini along with sticking our nose in the Apollo stuff every now. But, yes, we concentrated on the latter part of the Gemini.

[Assistant] Okay. And then just transitioned right into Apollo.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We came across in our research a listing for an NS-2 simulation, for that seemed to be Apollo oriented. Was this similar to the one that you had mentioned earlier with the whole network around the world, or do you recall it as a specific event?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our lead EECOM guy, a fellow by the name of Dick Glover, my sense is that as we wound down Gemini, that probably Dick didn’t fly the last few Gemini missions, that he went off to do Apollo stuff. So, yes, we continued on with the Gemini, myself, John Aaron, Merlin [Walter M.] Merritt. We were the EECOMs on the last few Gemini missions. My sense is that Glover was off doing the Apollo thing. I think that’s probably the way it happened. He was off getting that ready.\n\n The McDAC [McDonnell Aircraft Company] people that I mentioned that had worked with us on Gemini, we had a similar contingent working for Rockwell [North American Rockwell Corp.]. The lunar module side of the house had a contingent from Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corp.]. The guys were in the process of building handbooks and what have you and writing mission rules already and stuff, so Glover went off to head up that effort, and we finished up Gemini along with sticking our nose in the Apollo stuff every now. But, yes, we concentrated on the latter part of the Gemini.

[Assistant] Okay. And then just transitioned right into Apollo.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We came across in our research a listing for an NS-2 simulation, for that seemed to be Apollo oriented. Was this similar to the one that you had mentioned earlier with the whole network around the world, or do you recall it as a specific event?

[User] I’m sure it was. I’m sure it was probably for Apollo what NS-1 was for Gemini, to wring out the network, make sure it was ready. It didn’t stick in my mind like NS-1 since I did get to go to Australia before. But I’m sure that’s what it was.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, moving into Apollo, the initial plan was for a manned mission to go up first, which was Apollo 1, and unfortunately the fire occurred with that. At what point did you learn about the fire, and what then was your role in helping in the recovery process there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, then I recall—seems like almost weekly trips to Downey [California] as they redesigned the spacecraft. I remember Aaron Cohen. That’s probably where I got to know Aaron best, being very actively involved in that.\n\n From a control center-wise, I don’t recall that we changed too much of anything of our procedures or operations or anything. Much, much more aware of the dangers of fire. Of course, the whole system became much more aware of the kind of stuff that we were putting in that spacecraft and how it would react to a 100 percent oxygen. I heard at some point, and I can’t even tell you if it’s true or not, but I think it was the glue that was used to put the Velcro on the walls that, mixed in that pure oxygen like it was, or surrounded in pure oxygen like it was, that the amount of energy to ignite that was just nothing almost. Somebody described it as the amount of energy it would take to tear a piece of paper. Like I say, I don’t know if that was true or not, but there was all sorts of awareness of what was going into the spacecraft. But procedure-wise, I don’t recall that we changed much of anything.

[Assistant] Mostly spacecraft and materials changes.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, during the recovery process, as you mentioned, you were going down to Downey, helping with that. What were you specifically looking at when you would go on those trips to Downey? Were you dealing with some of these materials processes, or were you looking for the systems sides of things?

[User] We would have been looking at the systems side. I can’t recall any specific changes that were made in the systems because of fire. I’m sure there were some.

[Assistant] It sounded like running the wires differently was one of the concerns.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, during the recovery process, as you mentioned, you were going down to Downey, helping with that. What were you specifically looking at when you would go on those trips to Downey? Were you dealing with some of these materials processes, or were you looking for the systems sides of things?

[User] We would have been looking at the systems side. I can’t recall any specific changes that were made in the systems because of fire. I’m sure there were some.

[Assistant] It sounded like running the wires differently was one of the concerns.

[User] Yes. There could have been some of that. From a systems standpoint, whether a wire ran down this side of the spacecraft or whether it ran down that side of the spacecraft, that wouldn’t have affected us one way or the other. So I don’t recall a lot of changes. Material-wise, like we talked about, there was a lot.

[Assistant] Well, as the program moved back into an operational status, the Saturn V was still being tested during this time frame, but once the command module was back up and running ready to go, there were some unmanned flights with that. Did you man the console for some of these? I think you might have been on console for at least Apollo 6, which was the one that had some interesting booster problems.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We would have been looking at the systems side. I can’t recall any specific changes that were made in the systems because of fire. I’m sure there were some.

[Assistant] It sounded like running the wires differently was one of the concerns.

[User] Yes. There could have been some of that. From a systems standpoint, whether a wire ran down this side of the spacecraft or whether it ran down that side of the spacecraft, that wouldn’t have affected us one way or the other. So I don’t recall a lot of changes. Material-wise, like we talked about, there was a lot.

[Assistant] Well, as the program moved back into an operational status, the Saturn V was still being tested during this time frame, but once the command module was back up and running ready to go, there were some unmanned flights with that. Did you man the console for some of these? I think you might have been on console for at least Apollo 6, which was the one that had some interesting booster problems.

[User] Well, we had the fire, and then we had Apollo 501 and 502, which were S-IC, the first one of the big stack. I don’t recall Apollo 6.

[Assistant] Apollo 6, it was the full stack, the Saturn V, and it experienced the problems with the engines where it had some severe pogo problems and then actually two of the engines dropped out among the stages and ended up thrusting backwards and all sorts of interesting little events. I don’t recall if you were actually on the console or not during that—probably not, if it’s not coming to mind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had the fire, and then we had Apollo 501 and 502, which were S-IC, the first one of the big stack. I don’t recall Apollo 6.

[Assistant] Apollo 6, it was the full stack, the Saturn V, and it experienced the problems with the engines where it had some severe pogo problems and then actually two of the engines dropped out among the stages and ended up thrusting backwards and all sorts of interesting little events. I don’t recall if you were actually on the console or not during that—probably not, if it’s not coming to mind.

[User] Well, that would have been Apollo. When you said it was the whole stack, it had to be what we called 501 or 502. It obviously had an Apollo designation, but I’m not familiar, I don’t recall that.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] The first manned one, I guess, was 204. That was the booster number. I guess we called it Apollo 7. That was [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.], [R. Walter] Cunningham, and [Donn F.] Eisele.

[Assistant] Were you working that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were power plays, I guess that’s what you’d call them, for lack of a better word. I first saw it back at NS-1 at Carnarvon. There was some power plays going on on who was going to run the site. Was the astronaut out there going to run the site or was the CapCom that was out there going to—and the CapCom back then, it’s not like the CapCom in Shuttle today. The CapCom in Shuttle today is an astronaut. Back then the CapComs were flight controllers just out of the Flight Control Division. So there was some political infighting going on as to who was actually going to run the site back then.

[Assistant] How was that one resolved?

[User] The CapComs from flight control ran the site, and the other guys were there as help, observers, what have you. But there was no doubt the CapCom from Flight Division ran the site.\n\n So there was that way back years ago, and that thing that happened on Apollo 7. But my sense is that Kraft put the word out and said, “This is the way it’s going to be,” and that’s the way it was. I mean, when he spoke, the people listened.

[Assistant] Well, and he and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton obviously worked very closely together from both angles, from the flight controllers as well as the astronaut office.

[User] Yes, I’m sure they did. Yes. But there was no doubt who was in charge: Chris. Chris was in charge.

[Assistant] Somebody definitely has to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The CapComs from flight control ran the site, and the other guys were there as help, observers, what have you. But there was no doubt the CapCom from Flight Division ran the site.\n\n So there was that way back years ago, and that thing that happened on Apollo 7. But my sense is that Kraft put the word out and said, “This is the way it’s going to be,” and that’s the way it was. I mean, when he spoke, the people listened.

[Assistant] Well, and he and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton obviously worked very closely together from both angles, from the flight controllers as well as the astronaut office.

[User] Yes, I’m sure they did. Yes. But there was no doubt who was in charge: Chris. Chris was in charge.

[Assistant] Somebody definitely has to be.

[User] Yes. You bet, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you talked about Apollo 7 and that you moved off of the console so that you could work Apollo 8, which was obviously a very challenging mission, a very bold step. What were your thoughts when they called you into the office and said, “Hey, let’s go to the Moon on this flight”?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I’m sure they did. Yes. But there was no doubt who was in charge: Chris. Chris was in charge.

[Assistant] Somebody definitely has to be.

[User] Yes. You bet, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you talked about Apollo 7 and that you moved off of the console so that you could work Apollo 8, which was obviously a very challenging mission, a very bold step. What were your thoughts when they called you into the office and said, “Hey, let’s go to the Moon on this flight”?

[User] Well, like I say, Arnie and I had walked over to Kraft’s office, and we were sitting up in Kraft’s office, and we started talking about it. It was just being thrown out. Can anybody give us a good reason why we can’t pull this off? From an EECOM standpoint, I couldn’t say, “No, we’re not ready because of this.” So my sense is, we walked away from Chris’ office that afternoon with the idea that, yes, we’re going to do this unless somebody can come up with a real good reason why we shouldn’t or why we can’t.\n\n I always thought it’s the best mission we ever did. Of course, that’s from a CSM standpoint. We did our thing then. We didn’t need the lunar module along. Worked very, very close with Bill [William A.] Anders. Bill was the [LM] pilot on this one. He told John Aaron and I both that he named a crater for us on the back. I’ll never see it, of course. [Laughs] But Bill was a great guy. Doing that thing at Christmastime, when he read from the Bible, that was—I’m not sure there was a dry eye in the whole control center that night. It was something else.

[Assistant] Certainly very, very moving.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My sense is we were very much aware of what they were doing, or at least aware of what they were announcing they were doing. There was no pressure, but my sense also is that everybody on that team wanted to beat them. I’m not sure it’s anything anybody ever talked about, but I think it was there. At least in my mind it was.

[Assistant] Internal awareness.

[User] Yes. Because I can remember one splashdown party, and I guess it was Apollo 8, we had moved from the Singing Wheel to over at the Flintlock, but I think it must have been John Aaron, John and myself were standing downstairs, just standing looking out the window and hadn’t even gone upstairs. Somebody came by and said, “What are you guys doing? Why aren’t you upstairs?”\n\n We said, “We’re just standing here thinking how proud we are to be Americans.”\n\n So it was something at least I think we all felt in the back of our mind. There was no pressure or anything like that, though. I can’t recall any of the bosses ever saying we’ve got to do this by such and such a time because the Russians are moving ahead, or anything like that. It was just something we felt we wanted to do, and we’re proud to have done it.

[Assistant] Certainly something to be very proud of.

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] How much were you aware of at this time of events that were going on in the rest of the world? 1968 was a very turbulent year, and here Apollo 8 was a very good ending for it, very positive. But were you so caught up in the job that you weren’t as tuned in to what was going on, or was that a motivating factor for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] How much were you aware of at this time of events that were going on in the rest of the world? 1968 was a very turbulent year, and here Apollo 8 was a very good ending for it, very positive. But were you so caught up in the job that you weren’t as tuned in to what was going on, or was that a motivating factor for you?

[User] It wasn’t a factor. You knew it was going on. I read some point Steve [Stephen G.] Bales had said that he recalled going over from the control center to Building One at one point and seeing a little group of hippies or something out around the duck ponds. I don’t know if they were protesting or just singing songs or whatever. I don’t recall ever seeing any of that.\n\n But you were aware that the protests were going on, because we watched the news at night. But, I mean, I was then and still am a staunch conservative, voted for Barry Goldwater. Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin, who later became center director, Gerry was a CSM GNC and we had become very good friends. Gerry’s twin brother, Larry, was a forward air controller in Vietnam. Larry’s wife, Judy, was living here in Clear Lake and pregnant at the time. Larry is a very, very good writer, and Larry would write letters home to Judy, and then I can remember getting together over at the Griffin’s house and reading Larry’s letters telling us all about the war or his version of the war, what he saw.\n\n So we were aware it was going on. We were aware there were protests, but we pretty much just sort of had our blinders on, doing our own thing, I guess is the way I’d describe it.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly had an important job to be doing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned on Apollo 8 the reading from Genesis. But what were you thoughts when they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting for that burn for them enter lunar orbit? Was that a nervous time or was that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn’t a factor. You knew it was going on. I read some point Steve [Stephen G.] Bales had said that he recalled going over from the control center to Building One at one point and seeing a little group of hippies or something out around the duck ponds. I don’t know if they were protesting or just singing songs or whatever. I don’t recall ever seeing any of that.\n\n But you were aware that the protests were going on, because we watched the news at night. But, I mean, I was then and still am a staunch conservative, voted for Barry Goldwater. Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin, who later became center director, Gerry was a CSM GNC and we had become very good friends. Gerry’s twin brother, Larry, was a forward air controller in Vietnam. Larry’s wife, Judy, was living here in Clear Lake and pregnant at the time. Larry is a very, very good writer, and Larry would write letters home to Judy, and then I can remember getting together over at the Griffin’s house and reading Larry’s letters telling us all about the war or his version of the war, what he saw.\n\n So we were aware it was going on. We were aware there were protests, but we pretty much just sort of had our blinders on, doing our own thing, I guess is the way I’d describe it.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly had an important job to be doing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned on Apollo 8 the reading from Genesis. But what were you thoughts when they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting for that burn for them enter lunar orbit? Was that a nervous time or was that—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you pretty—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned on Apollo 8 the reading from Genesis. But what were you thoughts when they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting for that burn for them enter lunar orbit? Was that a nervous time or was that—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you pretty—

[User] It was a nervous time, although very, very confident that we were going to pull it off, but you sure wanted to see that spacecraft come out on time. So, yes, it was nervous, but also very confident that everything was going to work right.

[Assistant] It certainly did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you pretty—

[User] It was a nervous time, although very, very confident that we were going to pull it off, but you sure wanted to see that spacecraft come out on time. So, yes, it was nervous, but also very confident that everything was going to work right.

[Assistant] It certainly did.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] It all went very well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a nervous time, although very, very confident that we were going to pull it off, but you sure wanted to see that spacecraft come out on time. So, yes, it was nervous, but also very confident that everything was going to work right.

[Assistant] It certainly did.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] It all went very well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, with the success of Apollo 8 and by this time the lunar module was then ready to fly. So Apollo 9 was a test of both spacecraft in Earth orbit. Did you also work the console for this one before moving completely into the SPAN room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] It all went very well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, with the success of Apollo 8 and by this time the lunar module was then ready to fly. So Apollo 9 was a test of both spacecraft in Earth orbit. Did you also work the console for this one before moving completely into the SPAN room?

[User] Yes, I did. I got to work Apollo 9 also.

[Assistant] Were you able to convince Arnie Aldrich to let you stay there a little longer or was there other reasonings behind that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, with the success of Apollo 8 and by this time the lunar module was then ready to fly. So Apollo 9 was a test of both spacecraft in Earth orbit. Did you also work the console for this one before moving completely into the SPAN room?

[User] Yes, I did. I got to work Apollo 9 also.

[Assistant] Were you able to convince Arnie Aldrich to let you stay there a little longer or was there other reasonings behind that?

[User] Nothing special. I mean, it may have just been we didn’t have anybody yet trained to take over. I think Sy [Seymour] Liebergot sat with me on Apollo 8. I can’t remember now who our EECOMs were on 9, but I was there, Charlie [Charles L.] Dumis. I don’t recall why I worked 9 and why I didn’t go immediately to SPAN, but it was either we didn’t have enough people or I talked to Arnie into one more time or something, I don’t know.

[Assistant] Well, do you have any particular memories from Apollo 9? Were there any new challenges? I know there were two separate consoles for manning the two separate spacecraft, but did that present any new difficulties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Actually, before we go into that, I think we’ll take a quick break and change out the tape.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Well, we’ve now talked through your experiences on the console at Apollo, but you were moving into the SPAN room at this point. As you said, you were moving into a more management role already. You had moved into a section chief position and that the management role took more time, more duties, that you couldn’t spend as much time on simulations. What were some of those extra duties that you had as a section chief, actually, before you even moved into the SPAN room?

[User] Various employee paperwork that goes with employee evaluations. I can’t remember what all was required, but then you were also required, of course, to look at everybody in your section or in your branch and evaluate them on how they were doing. You can do that out on the console. You sit back in the back room, maybe watching some of the guys back there run sims and what have you. So, just overall supervisory kind of duties that took time and didn’t allow you to run the sims.

[Assistant] Well, as you did move into the SPAN room then, which when you were in there by Apollo 10 then, since you said you worked console for 9, explain to us the difference. You said that the personnel in the SPAN room were the interface between the mission controllers and the engineers and the mission evaluation room. If you could explain how the process worked. The controllers would call you with an issue, and you would then evaluate it to a certain extent before sending it on to the engineers, is that correct? Or would you just identify who that that would need to be passed on to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we would evaluate it. You might get a request from a controller that we thought was just totally uncalled for, that was going to crank up maybe too much effort and too much expense maybe on the contractor’s part, that maybe had nothing to do with really what we thought the problem was.\n\n Some guys, we caught some people trying to—they would try and try and try to get a piece of data out of the contractor and for whatever reason they weren’t able to. This would be preflight. Then be on the console, and now that they had SPAN going for them, they could resubmit this request and hopefully get it or force the answer out in real time. You wouldn’t let stuff like that go on. But, yes, you’d try to evaluate the answers and maybe evaluate the questions, reword the question maybe, to make it more clear, maybe combine it with somebody else’s question that you knew was in the works, and then just give it an overall management blessing before it got passed on to the engineering folks or the contractors.

[Assistant] This was obviously for things that were of a longer time frame, not for quick problems that needed quick solutions.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] What are some examples of issues that you would work with in the SPAN room from some of the later Apollo missions? Obviously Apollo 13 probably had quite a few, but maybe some of the other ones.

[User] I’m drawing a blank right now. We’ll have to go back to that one, I guess.

[Assistant] Maybe as we talk about the various missions, things will come up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] What are some examples of issues that you would work with in the SPAN room from some of the later Apollo missions? Obviously Apollo 13 probably had quite a few, but maybe some of the other ones.

[User] I’m drawing a blank right now. We’ll have to go back to that one, I guess.

[Assistant] Maybe as we talk about the various missions, things will come up.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] For Apollo 10, that would be the first one, they took the command module, lunar module into lunar orbit and did a dress rehearsal for the landing, did everything except for land itself. In fact, they did experience a problem. This was probably more of a short-term problem, where as they were separating the ascent and descent modules, as they were separating to re-rendezvous with the command module, they had some gyrations. I believe a switch was in the wrong position, which prompted an interesting response from the crew members that brought some questions. That was very quickly resolved and they went up and docked, but do you remember any other incidents or anything from Apollo 10 in particular? I think they were pretty noneventful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m drawing a blank right now. We’ll have to go back to that one, I guess.

[Assistant] Maybe as we talk about the various missions, things will come up.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] For Apollo 10, that would be the first one, they took the command module, lunar module into lunar orbit and did a dress rehearsal for the landing, did everything except for land itself. In fact, they did experience a problem. This was probably more of a short-term problem, where as they were separating the ascent and descent modules, as they were separating to re-rendezvous with the command module, they had some gyrations. I believe a switch was in the wrong position, which prompted an interesting response from the crew members that brought some questions. That was very quickly resolved and they went up and docked, but do you remember any other incidents or anything from Apollo 10 in particular? I think they were pretty noneventful.

[User] Yes. No, I don’t. I don’t recall.

[Assistant] Well, Apollo 11, obviously the big mission for landing on the Moon for the first time. As you said, from your standpoint Apollo 8 was a big deal because you beat the Russians to the Moon and that was the big challenge there. But to actually land on the Moon, they did experience some computer alarms during the landing, which they cleared and were handling. But after they landed, there was a blocked fuel line with, I believe, a frozen plug or something that was looked at for a while. Do you recall if that was something that came through the SPAN room at all or maybe after they landed, if they talked about the computer alarms at all?