[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Years, you know, you have to wait until you're replaced on a project like this, there's no such thing as a tour of duty. They're waiting for the right person to come along. And I say willing to see the same thing with Irene because normally a medtech is not trained in education. But everyone was a natural. She was just outgoing. She had the most enthusiasm about speaking Spanish and her accent was awful.

[Assistant] Oh, she's spoken enthusiastically.

[User] And she and she developed quite a facility with vocabulary and could connect with the medical personnel. We went out on our visit. She always wore a lab coat.

[Assistant] And all things are important.

[User] I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So you wait for the right person to come along. So I wasn't replaced until about two and a half years. OK, so that's why I didn't end up coming back to 1966. I see.

[Assistant] And there were two nurses who had been in conflict


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she and she developed quite a facility with vocabulary and could connect with the medical personnel. We went out on our visit. She always wore a lab coat.

[Assistant] And all things are important.

[User] I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So you wait for the right person to come along. So I wasn't replaced until about two and a half years. OK, so that's why I didn't end up coming back to 1966. I see.

[Assistant] And there were two nurses who had been in conflict

[User] With the doctor,

[Assistant] With the doctor about her procedures or something. But it's less important what the conflict was than how it was resolved. Did they remain there for their entire two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So you wait for the right person to come along. So I wasn't replaced until about two and a half years. OK, so that's why I didn't end up coming back to 1966. I see.

[Assistant] And there were two nurses who had been in conflict

[User] With the doctor,

[Assistant] With the doctor about her procedures or something. But it's less important what the conflict was than how it was resolved. Did they remain there for their entire two years.

[User] Oh, he's never eased out very, very tactfully. Lots of face saving on everybody's part and move to a hospital setting where they were more comfortable. And meanwhile, Peace Corps was getting more adept in terms of identifying nurses who could not only survive in this kind of atmosphere, but thrive. OK, so the next batch of nurses who arrived were terrific gals. I mean, talk about being able to cope, you know, just bring it on. Whatever you got. Just let me at it.

[Assistant] Isn't it good to find


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With the doctor,

[Assistant] With the doctor about her procedures or something. But it's less important what the conflict was than how it was resolved. Did they remain there for their entire two years.

[User] Oh, he's never eased out very, very tactfully. Lots of face saving on everybody's part and move to a hospital setting where they were more comfortable. And meanwhile, Peace Corps was getting more adept in terms of identifying nurses who could not only survive in this kind of atmosphere, but thrive. OK, so the next batch of nurses who arrived were terrific gals. I mean, talk about being able to cope, you know, just bring it on. Whatever you got. Just let me at it.

[Assistant] Isn't it good to find

[User] Out what's so flexible, outgoing and able to connect with Doctor Siles, is always very respectful.

[Assistant] I would think that would be built in tension. If you were trained in the medical profession in the United States and had a certain way of doing things that was the right way. And then to go to another country where it's done differently and you think incorrectly how to. It seems like it's a tricky balancing act, is to know where to try to change it and where to work within the parameters that are set by the local country, even if they're less than ideal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Out what's so flexible, outgoing and able to connect with Doctor Siles, is always very respectful.

[Assistant] I would think that would be built in tension. If you were trained in the medical profession in the United States and had a certain way of doing things that was the right way. And then to go to another country where it's done differently and you think incorrectly how to. It seems like it's a tricky balancing act, is to know where to try to change it and where to work within the parameters that are set by the local country, even if they're less than ideal.

[User] They thought they were awful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, by what they knew, it was totally substandard. Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference. It is what it is.

[Assistant] It's all we've got. Yes. Yes. And people have worked hard to establish their right. When we were in training for Peace Corps, there was a lot of talk about culture shock and we were told that somewhere after the second or third month we have perhaps a dip in our enthusiasm or feel homesick. Did that ever happen to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They thought they were awful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, by what they knew, it was totally substandard. Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference. It is what it is.

[Assistant] It's all we've got. Yes. Yes. And people have worked hard to establish their right. When we were in training for Peace Corps, there was a lot of talk about culture shock and we were told that somewhere after the second or third month we have perhaps a dip in our enthusiasm or feel homesick. Did that ever happen to you?

[User] I suppose, but I don't remember it. I don't remember being particularly homesick or I suppose a little bit of maybe depression set in after. This this job site, let's face it, that I had I mean, it was depressing from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, if you looked at it that way, then if you turn the coin over. Culture shock, I mean, the whole thing is a shock, Carville Louisiana was a shock. Oh, God, I haven't even left the country, you know. And so the culture shock started in the United States

[Assistant] During all this time. You had a mother and a father. Your father was needing special care at home. Your mother was home. You had two sisters. Were you communicating with them? Were you sending letters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, by what they knew, it was totally substandard. Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference. It is what it is.

[Assistant] It's all we've got. Yes. Yes. And people have worked hard to establish their right. When we were in training for Peace Corps, there was a lot of talk about culture shock and we were told that somewhere after the second or third month we have perhaps a dip in our enthusiasm or feel homesick. Did that ever happen to you?

[User] I suppose, but I don't remember it. I don't remember being particularly homesick or I suppose a little bit of maybe depression set in after. This this job site, let's face it, that I had I mean, it was depressing from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, if you looked at it that way, then if you turn the coin over. Culture shock, I mean, the whole thing is a shock, Carville Louisiana was a shock. Oh, God, I haven't even left the country, you know. And so the culture shock started in the United States

[Assistant] During all this time. You had a mother and a father. Your father was needing special care at home. Your mother was home. You had two sisters. Were you communicating with them? Were you sending letters?

[User] Letters? My brother came to visit me every day. Yes. Yes, he came to visit me.

[Assistant] Oh, my. That's a student in Bolivia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suppose, but I don't remember it. I don't remember being particularly homesick or I suppose a little bit of maybe depression set in after. This this job site, let's face it, that I had I mean, it was depressing from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, if you looked at it that way, then if you turn the coin over. Culture shock, I mean, the whole thing is a shock, Carville Louisiana was a shock. Oh, God, I haven't even left the country, you know. And so the culture shock started in the United States

[Assistant] During all this time. You had a mother and a father. Your father was needing special care at home. Your mother was home. You had two sisters. Were you communicating with them? Were you sending letters?

[User] Letters? My brother came to visit me every day. Yes. Yes, he came to visit me.

[Assistant] Oh, my. That's a student in Bolivia.

[User] We went to Peru together. I photographed us in Machu Picchu together.

[Assistant] How fun. What did he think of Los Negros?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Letters? My brother came to visit me every day. Yes. Yes, he came to visit me.

[Assistant] Oh, my. That's a student in Bolivia.

[User] We went to Peru together. I photographed us in Machu Picchu together.

[Assistant] How fun. What did he think of Los Negros?

[User] I don't think he ever made it Los Negros. You know. Yeah. If you make it to La Paz, you got a long way.

[Assistant] True. And there's plenty there's so much you want to do. And he's got a short time. I could I could understand that. And of course, I'm imagining that where you lived in your room in that gross granted. That's right. It was two miles away from Los Negros. You probably. Did you have electricity there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to Peru together. I photographed us in Machu Picchu together.

[Assistant] How fun. What did he think of Los Negros?

[User] I don't think he ever made it Los Negros. You know. Yeah. If you make it to La Paz, you got a long way.

[Assistant] True. And there's plenty there's so much you want to do. And he's got a short time. I could I could understand that. And of course, I'm imagining that where you lived in your room in that gross granted. That's right. It was two miles away from Los Negros. You probably. Did you have electricity there?

[User] No, I had my Oil-Field lamp. Yes, my mosquito netting for my bed. I bought a guitar in the village large village to the south of Pampagrande, which was called Vallegrande. And I taught myself to play the guitar. And one of a volunteer who arrived after me at a project nearby played the banjo. And we would get together. He would come over and we would play. And he would bring me and he would bring a guitar scoring, you know, tablature guitar, and we would teach each other folk songs.

[Assistant] How well do we go with some of those folk songs? Who are the most gracious?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think he ever made it Los Negros. You know. Yeah. If you make it to La Paz, you got a long way.

[Assistant] True. And there's plenty there's so much you want to do. And he's got a short time. I could I could understand that. And of course, I'm imagining that where you lived in your room in that gross granted. That's right. It was two miles away from Los Negros. You probably. Did you have electricity there?

[User] No, I had my Oil-Field lamp. Yes, my mosquito netting for my bed. I bought a guitar in the village large village to the south of Pampagrande, which was called Vallegrande. And I taught myself to play the guitar. And one of a volunteer who arrived after me at a project nearby played the banjo. And we would get together. He would come over and we would play. And he would bring me and he would bring a guitar scoring, you know, tablature guitar, and we would teach each other folk songs.

[Assistant] How well do we go with some of those folk songs? Who are the most gracious?

[User] Just the standard kind of, you know, Woody Guthrie, American folk songs from Appalachian.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so forth. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had my Oil-Field lamp. Yes, my mosquito netting for my bed. I bought a guitar in the village large village to the south of Pampagrande, which was called Vallegrande. And I taught myself to play the guitar. And one of a volunteer who arrived after me at a project nearby played the banjo. And we would get together. He would come over and we would play. And he would bring me and he would bring a guitar scoring, you know, tablature guitar, and we would teach each other folk songs.

[Assistant] How well do we go with some of those folk songs? Who are the most gracious?

[User] Just the standard kind of, you know, Woody Guthrie, American folk songs from Appalachian.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so forth. Yeah.

[User] Oh, wonder. But we also from the patient there were I the the musicians among the patients were so delighted to see me take up the guitar. Oh. That they would take time there. Bolivian guitars are smaller than ours, six strings nevertheless. And they would teach me the Bolivian rhythm

[Assistant] Name for the guitar. It's smaller guitar, you know. Slightly smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Acoustic guitar, slightly smaller. And they just joined with


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just the standard kind of, you know, Woody Guthrie, American folk songs from Appalachian.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so forth. Yeah.

[User] Oh, wonder. But we also from the patient there were I the the musicians among the patients were so delighted to see me take up the guitar. Oh. That they would take time there. Bolivian guitars are smaller than ours, six strings nevertheless. And they would teach me the Bolivian rhythm

[Assistant] Name for the guitar. It's smaller guitar, you know. Slightly smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Acoustic guitar, slightly smaller. And they just joined with

[User] Me because I'm not a big person anyway. But they would teach me the Bolivian rhythms and Bolivian songs. And of course, way back in Seattle, we were taught Bolivian songs. We were taught Bolivian dances to dances. In the evenings we would only dance Bolivian dance one. And they were delighted that it and I could manage a few steps and some traditional Bolivian dance and we would get together and sing and play.

[Assistant] Did you ever put on Bolivian clothes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, wonder. But we also from the patient there were I the the musicians among the patients were so delighted to see me take up the guitar. Oh. That they would take time there. Bolivian guitars are smaller than ours, six strings nevertheless. And they would teach me the Bolivian rhythm

[Assistant] Name for the guitar. It's smaller guitar, you know. Slightly smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Acoustic guitar, slightly smaller. And they just joined with

[User] Me because I'm not a big person anyway. But they would teach me the Bolivian rhythms and Bolivian songs. And of course, way back in Seattle, we were taught Bolivian songs. We were taught Bolivian dances to dances. In the evenings we would only dance Bolivian dance one. And they were delighted that it and I could manage a few steps and some traditional Bolivian dance and we would get together and sing and play.

[Assistant] Did you ever put on Bolivian clothes?

[User] No, no, no. And I never wore a hospital clothes either. I just always wore my normal clothes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so forth and so on. I'm thinking women there didn't wear pants, but you


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And oh no. I maybe on my own time I would, I would wear some pants but I think I pretty much because of the visibility of the project. Yeah. You know, you kind of want to tow the line in terms of what the expectations show you and skirt was the expectation, right. But I do want to tell you, starting with music for a minute in Cochabamba, where we can get to by bus in about a half a day. There were wonderful folk clubs where you could go and for, you know, the equivalent of a nickel buy a glass of chicha, which is their fermented corn drink and listen to folk music for an entire night. And we would do that. And it was just fantastic because we would strum the guitar this way down.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] On on the strong beat of the measure. It's a downbeat for us.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] On the strong beats of the measure. It's an upbeat for them and for them. Yes, it's an upbeat for them. And that was so everything to the western ear is disjointed.

[Assistant] It's not the time


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On on the strong beat of the measure. It's a downbeat for us.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] On the strong beats of the measure. It's an upbeat for them and for them. Yes, it's an upbeat for them. And that was so everything to the western ear is disjointed.

[Assistant] It's not the time

[User] And ours is da da dah dah. So it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just wonderful that I just came away with such an appreciation for their music and dance.

[Assistant] And even in the leprosarium people there were musicians there, mostly bad musicians.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the strong beats of the measure. It's an upbeat for them and for them. Yes, it's an upbeat for them. And that was so everything to the western ear is disjointed.

[Assistant] It's not the time

[User] And ours is da da dah dah. So it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just wonderful that I just came away with such an appreciation for their music and dance.

[Assistant] And even in the leprosarium people there were musicians there, mostly bad musicians.

[User] Singers. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. Yes. I mean it was a cross-section of of that part of Bolivia.

[Assistant] So there was a social world going on there too within the people who lived in, you know, children. Does that mean there were no children with leprosy or they won't


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And ours is da da dah dah. So it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just wonderful that I just came away with such an appreciation for their music and dance.

[Assistant] And even in the leprosarium people there were musicians there, mostly bad musicians.

[User] Singers. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. Yes. I mean it was a cross-section of of that part of Bolivia.

[Assistant] So there was a social world going on there too within the people who lived in, you know, children. Does that mean there were no children with leprosy or they won't

[User] Go there, just that the children never made it to the colony? For the most part they would there would be turned out of their homes. There would be so young they would probably die along the way or get lost or never make it. So the youngest, I would say, would probably be maybe 10 or 11, but not.

[Assistant] You know nothing over the last 10 or 11 with the expectation that the rest of their life was going to be there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Singers. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. Yes. I mean it was a cross-section of of that part of Bolivia.

[Assistant] So there was a social world going on there too within the people who lived in, you know, children. Does that mean there were no children with leprosy or they won't

[User] Go there, just that the children never made it to the colony? For the most part they would there would be turned out of their homes. There would be so young they would probably die along the way or get lost or never make it. So the youngest, I would say, would probably be maybe 10 or 11, but not.

[Assistant] You know nothing over the last 10 or 11 with the expectation that the rest of their life was going to be there.

[User] You bet you that there was no in Bolivia at that time. And probably the same is true today. There was no concept of those people returning to their normal life. Yes.

[Assistant] Dr. Siles did a heroic thing with her life dedicated to that particular community. Second, you was there. Was there any difference between


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Go there, just that the children never made it to the colony? For the most part they would there would be turned out of their homes. There would be so young they would probably die along the way or get lost or never make it. So the youngest, I would say, would probably be maybe 10 or 11, but not.

[Assistant] You know nothing over the last 10 or 11 with the expectation that the rest of their life was going to be there.

[User] You bet you that there was no in Bolivia at that time. And probably the same is true today. There was no concept of those people returning to their normal life. Yes.

[Assistant] Dr. Siles did a heroic thing with her life dedicated to that particular community. Second, you was there. Was there any difference between

[User] We kept getting more better trained volunteers, OK, more volunteers who knew what to expect and were trained specifically for that project as opposed to me and Ed who were just plucked off a tree.

[Assistant] Last minute, yeah. I'm coming to the end of your tour. Was there when you saw that you'd be going home in a few months when you knew that. Did you have any special things you hope to accomplish in the last month or two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You bet you that there was no in Bolivia at that time. And probably the same is true today. There was no concept of those people returning to their normal life. Yes.

[Assistant] Dr. Siles did a heroic thing with her life dedicated to that particular community. Second, you was there. Was there any difference between

[User] We kept getting more better trained volunteers, OK, more volunteers who knew what to expect and were trained specifically for that project as opposed to me and Ed who were just plucked off a tree.

[Assistant] Last minute, yeah. I'm coming to the end of your tour. Was there when you saw that you'd be going home in a few months when you knew that. Did you have any special things you hope to accomplish in the last month or two?

[User] You know, it's not like a typical Peace Corps experience where, you know, you have your own you have set a goal for yourself and you're trying to reach that goal. These were Dr. Siles’s goals that we were trying to reach. So I felt satisfied and meeting any of any any of her expectations.

[Assistant] And you would be off also doing these interviews,


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We kept getting more better trained volunteers, OK, more volunteers who knew what to expect and were trained specifically for that project as opposed to me and Ed who were just plucked off a tree.

[Assistant] Last minute, yeah. I'm coming to the end of your tour. Was there when you saw that you'd be going home in a few months when you knew that. Did you have any special things you hope to accomplish in the last month or two?

[User] You know, it's not like a typical Peace Corps experience where, you know, you have your own you have set a goal for yourself and you're trying to reach that goal. These were Dr. Siles’s goals that we were trying to reach. So I felt satisfied and meeting any of any any of her expectations.

[Assistant] And you would be off also doing these interviews,

[User] Every interview, the patients, when they arrived at the hospital and even doing such things as there was no record system. So I had to set up all the references. I had been no no diseases in the in the way that disease history to take in the way that we would do it today.

[Assistant] So it seems like you had kind of a dual role. One was interviewing the patients upon their arrival and keeping organizing a system for record keeping and then also leaving La Colonia to go out to the places where these people came from to talk to their families into whatever local medical personnel leave some literature. Right. For education.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's not like a typical Peace Corps experience where, you know, you have your own you have set a goal for yourself and you're trying to reach that goal. These were Dr. Siles’s goals that we were trying to reach. So I felt satisfied and meeting any of any any of her expectations.

[Assistant] And you would be off also doing these interviews,

[User] Every interview, the patients, when they arrived at the hospital and even doing such things as there was no record system. So I had to set up all the references. I had been no no diseases in the in the way that disease history to take in the way that we would do it today.

[Assistant] So it seems like you had kind of a dual role. One was interviewing the patients upon their arrival and keeping organizing a system for record keeping and then also leaving La Colonia to go out to the places where these people came from to talk to their families into whatever local medical personnel leave some literature. Right. For education.

[User] So I was not trained to write in Spanish, but I taught myself. Oh, yeah, in Spanish. For purposes of work,

[Assistant] It's easier than teaching yourself to write English now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every interview, the patients, when they arrived at the hospital and even doing such things as there was no record system. So I had to set up all the references. I had been no no diseases in the in the way that disease history to take in the way that we would do it today.

[Assistant] So it seems like you had kind of a dual role. One was interviewing the patients upon their arrival and keeping organizing a system for record keeping and then also leaving La Colonia to go out to the places where these people came from to talk to their families into whatever local medical personnel leave some literature. Right. For education.

[User] So I was not trained to write in Spanish, but I taught myself. Oh, yeah, in Spanish. For purposes of work,

[Assistant] It's easier than teaching yourself to write English now.

[User] So, no, I won't say I ever got the the real knack of where to put the modifiers in the sentence because I tend to write back.

[Assistant] But yeah, it was that it's intelligible and then it's good that you're communicating. Your idea clearly is much more important than getting a grammar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was not trained to write in Spanish, but I taught myself. Oh, yeah, in Spanish. For purposes of work,

[Assistant] It's easier than teaching yourself to write English now.

[User] So, no, I won't say I ever got the the real knack of where to put the modifiers in the sentence because I tend to write back.

[Assistant] But yeah, it was that it's intelligible and then it's good that you're communicating. Your idea clearly is much more important than getting a grammar.

[User] Yeah, I had, I had, I had the right vocabulary. Yeah. I like the sentence structure. Probably left a lot to me.

[Assistant] So you come to the end of your time, your replacement is has been found and you're anticipating going home. What plans did you have for yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, no, I won't say I ever got the the real knack of where to put the modifiers in the sentence because I tend to write back.

[Assistant] But yeah, it was that it's intelligible and then it's good that you're communicating. Your idea clearly is much more important than getting a grammar.

[User] Yeah, I had, I had, I had the right vocabulary. Yeah. I like the sentence structure. Probably left a lot to me.

[Assistant] So you come to the end of your time, your replacement is has been found and you're anticipating going home. What plans did you have for yourself?

[User] I had applied to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and had been accepted, but that would be in the fall.

[Assistant] And this was now when?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I had, I had, I had the right vocabulary. Yeah. I like the sentence structure. Probably left a lot to me.

[Assistant] So you come to the end of your time, your replacement is has been found and you're anticipating going home. What plans did you have for yourself?

[User] I had applied to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and had been accepted, but that would be in the fall.

[Assistant] And this was now when?

[User] ‘66 March, April. So the the public health school in Seattle was still training volunteers, so they had an opening and a training program. And so for me, I worked in that training program. And then and then in the summer I went to Santa Fe and worked in another training program and then went on to graduate school.

[Assistant] And the graduate school was used it in Chapel Hill, North Chapel Hill. And what were you studying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had applied to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and had been accepted, but that would be in the fall.

[Assistant] And this was now when?

[User] ‘66 March, April. So the the public health school in Seattle was still training volunteers, so they had an opening and a training program. And so for me, I worked in that training program. And then and then in the summer I went to Santa Fe and worked in another training program and then went on to graduate school.

[Assistant] And the graduate school was used it in Chapel Hill, North Chapel Hill. And what were you studying?

[User] Well, I had applied for a doctoral program in Latin American history. And I spent two years and I got a MA and I decided I did not want to be a college teacher.

[Assistant] So you were content with the MA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ‘66 March, April. So the the public health school in Seattle was still training volunteers, so they had an opening and a training program. And so for me, I worked in that training program. And then and then in the summer I went to Santa Fe and worked in another training program and then went on to graduate school.

[Assistant] And the graduate school was used it in Chapel Hill, North Chapel Hill. And what were you studying?

[User] Well, I had applied for a doctoral program in Latin American history. And I spent two years and I got a MA and I decided I did not want to be a college teacher.

[Assistant] So you were content with the MA?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And it was an MA in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And it was an MA in?

[User] Latin American history. And I think I managed to finagle a minor in computer science.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Just doing it on my own. Not not not because they worked together or anything.

[Assistant] Those very early days of computers. And, um, when you got back from Bolivia, did you come straight home from La Paz or did you travel a bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Latin American history. And I think I managed to finagle a minor in computer science.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Just doing it on my own. Not not not because they worked together or anything.

[Assistant] Those very early days of computers. And, um, when you got back from Bolivia, did you come straight home from La Paz or did you travel a bit?

[User] On my way home? No, the flights were La Paz, Lima, Lima, Miami, and then from Miami, you would make a connection to wherever you were going,

[Assistant] But you didn't take vacation time on the way back. You were anxious to get home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just doing it on my own. Not not not because they worked together or anything.

[Assistant] Those very early days of computers. And, um, when you got back from Bolivia, did you come straight home from La Paz or did you travel a bit?

[User] On my way home? No, the flights were La Paz, Lima, Lima, Miami, and then from Miami, you would make a connection to wherever you were going,

[Assistant] But you didn't take vacation time on the way back. You were anxious to get home?

[User] I was headed to Seattle, Washington for a job. I did stop in at home to see my father visit my brother, visit my sister.

[Assistant] And your mother was still there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On my way home? No, the flights were La Paz, Lima, Lima, Miami, and then from Miami, you would make a connection to wherever you were going,

[Assistant] But you didn't take vacation time on the way back. You were anxious to get home?

[User] I was headed to Seattle, Washington for a job. I did stop in at home to see my father visit my brother, visit my sister.

[Assistant] And your mother was still there?

[User] My mother had passed away.

[Assistant] While you were in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was headed to Seattle, Washington for a job. I did stop in at home to see my father visit my brother, visit my sister.

[Assistant] And your mother was still there?

[User] My mother had passed away.

[Assistant] While you were in Bolivia?

[User] Right before I started training.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry. Right before that, she had been so supportive. Yes. All right. All right. I'm sorry she couldn't have heard your story, but everything. Absolutely. And what what was your reaction to the US when you got home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My mother had passed away.

[Assistant] While you were in Bolivia?

[User] Right before I started training.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry. Right before that, she had been so supportive. Yes. All right. All right. I'm sorry she couldn't have heard your story, but everything. Absolutely. And what what was your reaction to the US when you got home?

[User] I, I couldn't believe it. Sitting in the Miami airport, I remember I was by myself, traveling alone, and waiting for my flight and have a long layover. I just felt. We were such a wasteful country. Yeah, I had no clue about the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lived and how the rest of the world could live for a month on what we would throw away in 48 hours. And I just. I just couldn't fathom it. I had a really difficult time coming to grips with American affluence. Yeah, yeah, I would say it was a matter of months and months, if not more months.

[Assistant] And I'm seeing how that affects your life, even today, you and your husband have given up your car and walk and ride the busses, and I wonder, would you have had that determination to do that had you not had your experience in the Peace Corps in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right before I started training.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry. Right before that, she had been so supportive. Yes. All right. All right. I'm sorry she couldn't have heard your story, but everything. Absolutely. And what what was your reaction to the US when you got home?

[User] I, I couldn't believe it. Sitting in the Miami airport, I remember I was by myself, traveling alone, and waiting for my flight and have a long layover. I just felt. We were such a wasteful country. Yeah, I had no clue about the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lived and how the rest of the world could live for a month on what we would throw away in 48 hours. And I just. I just couldn't fathom it. I had a really difficult time coming to grips with American affluence. Yeah, yeah, I would say it was a matter of months and months, if not more months.

[Assistant] And I'm seeing how that affects your life, even today, you and your husband have given up your car and walk and ride the busses, and I wonder, would you have had that determination to do that had you not had your experience in the Peace Corps in Bolivia?

[User] Good question, Phyllis, I don't know. I, I expect it was a factor.

[Assistant] Because both of you had experience with it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I couldn't believe it. Sitting in the Miami airport, I remember I was by myself, traveling alone, and waiting for my flight and have a long layover. I just felt. We were such a wasteful country. Yeah, I had no clue about the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lived and how the rest of the world could live for a month on what we would throw away in 48 hours. And I just. I just couldn't fathom it. I had a really difficult time coming to grips with American affluence. Yeah, yeah, I would say it was a matter of months and months, if not more months.

[Assistant] And I'm seeing how that affects your life, even today, you and your husband have given up your car and walk and ride the busses, and I wonder, would you have had that determination to do that had you not had your experience in the Peace Corps in Bolivia?

[User] Good question, Phyllis, I don't know. I, I expect it was a factor.

[Assistant] Because both of you had experience with it.

[User] Right. And neither one of us came from well to do or even middle class. Yeah, no, we both came from working class family. So not family's accustomed to a lot of things and a lot of comfort and privilege or no privilege at all. But. Yeah, I expect it was an important factor.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, let's just briefly take a little side trip here and tell me the story of how you met Adam. He was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia but later


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And neither one of us came from well to do or even middle class. Yeah, no, we both came from working class family. So not family's accustomed to a lot of things and a lot of comfort and privilege or no privilege at all. But. Yeah, I expect it was an important factor.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, let's just briefly take a little side trip here and tell me the story of how you met Adam. He was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia but later

[User] He was in the training group that I was sent to work with in Seattle.

[Assistant] Ah yes.

[User] He and his wife were in that group. I met them and along with everybody else in the in the group and did my job and then went on to Santa Fe and then went on to graduate school.

[Assistant] But you remember them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He and his wife were in that group. I met them and along with everybody else in the in the group and did my job and then went on to Santa Fe and then went on to graduate school.

[Assistant] But you remember them?

[User] Years years later, years later, keeping track of Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I worked for a foundation in Central America and the Caribbean for two years traveling, representing this foundation after graduate school. And they would send me to programs here in Boston. And eventually I left being tired of traveling and settled here and started a career as a fundraiser. And, oh, I had worked at Tufts for raising money and was working at M.I.T. and was interested in moving on and was interviewing for a job as a fundraiser for the American Bar Association in Chicago. And I called a bunch of volunteers that I knew in Chicago asking, you know, is anybody free to have dinner the night? Because I'm only going to be in Chicago one night and I'm going on to Los Angeles for another interview.

[Assistant] So you still had contact with RPCVs? You know with the Bolivia volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Years years later, years later, keeping track of Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I worked for a foundation in Central America and the Caribbean for two years traveling, representing this foundation after graduate school. And they would send me to programs here in Boston. And eventually I left being tired of traveling and settled here and started a career as a fundraiser. And, oh, I had worked at Tufts for raising money and was working at M.I.T. and was interested in moving on and was interviewing for a job as a fundraiser for the American Bar Association in Chicago. And I called a bunch of volunteers that I knew in Chicago asking, you know, is anybody free to have dinner the night? Because I'm only going to be in Chicago one night and I'm going on to Los Angeles for another interview.

[Assistant] So you still had contact with RPCVs? You know with the Bolivia volunteers.

[User] Oh sure. Yes, just informal. And Adam was the only one who had the evening free. So we met he met my plane and we had dinner together and he was by that time divorced and so forth.

[Assistant] And the rest is history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked for a foundation in Central America and the Caribbean for two years traveling, representing this foundation after graduate school. And they would send me to programs here in Boston. And eventually I left being tired of traveling and settled here and started a career as a fundraiser. And, oh, I had worked at Tufts for raising money and was working at M.I.T. and was interested in moving on and was interviewing for a job as a fundraiser for the American Bar Association in Chicago. And I called a bunch of volunteers that I knew in Chicago asking, you know, is anybody free to have dinner the night? Because I'm only going to be in Chicago one night and I'm going on to Los Angeles for another interview.

[Assistant] So you still had contact with RPCVs? You know with the Bolivia volunteers.

[User] Oh sure. Yes, just informal. And Adam was the only one who had the evening free. So we met he met my plane and we had dinner together and he was by that time divorced and so forth.

[Assistant] And the rest is history.

[User] And we got reacquainted, beginning then.

[Assistant] Very, very nice. Very, very nice. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Peace Corps either and how he how it's affected your life or what you might say to a young person today about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh sure. Yes, just informal. And Adam was the only one who had the evening free. So we met he met my plane and we had dinner together and he was by that time divorced and so forth.

[Assistant] And the rest is history.

[User] And we got reacquainted, beginning then.

[Assistant] Very, very nice. Very, very nice. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Peace Corps either and how he how it's affected your life or what you might say to a young person today about Peace Corps?

[User] But I think you don't know your capability, your real capability, until you’re faced with very difficult circumstances, challenges, and it's a great, it's a great thing to learn that you're far far more than you thought you than you have ever imagined. So I'm writing a book right now. I've never written a book before, are you kidding? It's just a matter of, you know, like doing anything difficult. Of course, it can be done.

[Assistant] You know that now. You know that about yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we got reacquainted, beginning then.

[Assistant] Very, very nice. Very, very nice. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Peace Corps either and how he how it's affected your life or what you might say to a young person today about Peace Corps?

[User] But I think you don't know your capability, your real capability, until you’re faced with very difficult circumstances, challenges, and it's a great, it's a great thing to learn that you're far far more than you thought you than you have ever imagined. So I'm writing a book right now. I've never written a book before, are you kidding? It's just a matter of, you know, like doing anything difficult. Of course, it can be done.

[Assistant] You know that now. You know that about yourself.

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] How beautiful. Have you ever gone back to Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I think you don't know your capability, your real capability, until you’re faced with very difficult circumstances, challenges, and it's a great, it's a great thing to learn that you're far far more than you thought you than you have ever imagined. So I'm writing a book right now. I've never written a book before, are you kidding? It's just a matter of, you know, like doing anything difficult. Of course, it can be done.

[Assistant] You know that now. You know that about yourself.

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] How beautiful. Have you ever gone back to Bolivia?

[User] I have not.

[Assistant] I think you might someday.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I grew as an individual with understanding of other people. There's circumstances try not to be critical of their circumstances. We all we all build our lives the way it happens to occur. We all make choices and our choices guide where we go. I don't always agree with choices other people make, but that's their lives. And they have that right to do that. And I've made many choices that I feel are good. I might mention that I also have developed a very good love for needlepoint and I have gotten. I recently and caveating and I'm very active in a couple of the girls of this nature and as well as my activities on campus.

[Assistant] So overall it was kind of a life changing experience for you, wasn't it?

[User] Yes, it was. It was. And I got two wonderful children out of it. And that's a blessing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. OK, so if you if you were back at 30, again, thinking about what to do, would you do it again?

[User] Yes, I would. I would. There's a need for this in the world. Sometimes I wish I were younger and had more energy again and to do it, but I do what I can as I'm able sure it. Was there any experience that was not pleasant that you remember particularly? Not really that really. I think we tend to forget those and zero in on the good.

[Assistant] Did you experience Carnival while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was. And I got two wonderful children out of it. And that's a blessing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. OK, so if you if you were back at 30, again, thinking about what to do, would you do it again?

[User] Yes, I would. I would. There's a need for this in the world. Sometimes I wish I were younger and had more energy again and to do it, but I do what I can as I'm able sure it. Was there any experience that was not pleasant that you remember particularly? Not really that really. I think we tend to forget those and zero in on the good.

[Assistant] Did you experience Carnival while you were there?

[User]
Yes, not to a great extent. I did not travel a whole lot. I was good friends with June and Clyde Wolf who were in charge of the Cochabamba group, and I spent many of my vacations visiting them because it was like visiting family.

I had known them back at Manchester College when I was a student, and so I only experienced Carnival at the Santa Cruz level, which of course is nothing compared to the other big cities in that. And it wasn't that important to us.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, there were there were a lot of things that went on. Did you get to see much of Bolivia while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I would. I would. There's a need for this in the world. Sometimes I wish I were younger and had more energy again and to do it, but I do what I can as I'm able sure it. Was there any experience that was not pleasant that you remember particularly? Not really that really. I think we tend to forget those and zero in on the good.

[Assistant] Did you experience Carnival while you were there?

[User]
Yes, not to a great extent. I did not travel a whole lot. I was good friends with June and Clyde Wolf who were in charge of the Cochabamba group, and I spent many of my vacations visiting them because it was like visiting family.

I had known them back at Manchester College when I was a student, and so I only experienced Carnival at the Santa Cruz level, which of course is nothing compared to the other big cities in that. And it wasn't that important to us.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, there were there were a lot of things that went on. Did you get to see much of Bolivia while you were there?

[User] No, I didn't see a whole lot of it I guess.

[Assistant] You almost became Bolivian, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, not to a great extent. I did not travel a whole lot. I was good friends with June and Clyde Wolf who were in charge of the Cochabamba group, and I spent many of my vacations visiting them because it was like visiting family.

I had known them back at Manchester College when I was a student, and so I only experienced Carnival at the Santa Cruz level, which of course is nothing compared to the other big cities in that. And it wasn't that important to us.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, there were there were a lot of things that went on. Did you get to see much of Bolivia while you were there?

[User] No, I didn't see a whole lot of it I guess.

[Assistant] You almost became Bolivian, didn’t you?

[User] Yes, I did. In fact, I had a Bolivian driver's license later and I had a Bolivian car name identification, which I'm not sure I should have had. You worry about that as an American citizen. I might say that when my children were born, I immediately had American passports for them and reported their birth so that they had two birth certificates, one from the embassy down there for American birth overseas, I think it was called, as well as their Bolivian.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that because when I took my kids to Costa Rica, when they were little, I mean, I had to take all kind of documentation to prove that they were my kids and I wanted to take them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't see a whole lot of it I guess.

[Assistant] You almost became Bolivian, didn’t you?

[User] Yes, I did. In fact, I had a Bolivian driver's license later and I had a Bolivian car name identification, which I'm not sure I should have had. You worry about that as an American citizen. I might say that when my children were born, I immediately had American passports for them and reported their birth so that they had two birth certificates, one from the embassy down there for American birth overseas, I think it was called, as well as their Bolivian.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that because when I took my kids to Costa Rica, when they were little, I mean, I had to take all kind of documentation to prove that they were my kids and I wanted to take them.

[User]
And I had had the advice of a Gulf Oil friend who said get individual passports for them because she said if you're ever in an accident and one of them needs to travel to the states for medical reasons, they need their own passport.

Don't put them on your own, your passport. And so I had done that as small children. It was interesting also, we were told at the time that they would be considered dual citizens, but if between the ages of 15 and 25, they said that in five years consecutively in the States, that they would be considered by Bolivia as American citizens. My daughter currently is involved in the Air Force and at one point she said to me, Mom, what am I? And I told her this. And I have never heard anything otherwise. So I'm sure everything went OK because she had to prove her American citizenship.

[Assistant] Yeah, so that's good. OK, do you have any other observations that you would like to me?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a lot of material. There are some small objects, but it’s typically dust material. As we move around, the dust that’s left over from comets, we sweep it up. It’s a dirty area. We don’t live in a really good part of the solar system, it turns out. I hate to tell you, but we now know that. We didn’t know that a couple decades ago. We didn’t know any of that.\n\n Out of these near-Earth objects that we’re looking at, there’s about 900 that are planet killers. Those are all big enough to destroy most of the life on this Earth. We now know it’s not a matter of if, it’s only a matter of when one of those will come by and hit us. We’ve been monitoring them and observing them, and there’s quite a few more to find. We statistically believe we’ve got all the really big ones, or most nearly all the big ones, that we’re looking for. But there’s still some that are so big, like 100 to 200 meters in size, that if it hit Washington, DC it would take everything out to the edge of the [Capital] Beltway [Interstate-495]. It’d all be gone. That’s only an object that’s a couple hundred meters in size. That’s no big deal; there are plenty of them out there. There’s tens of thousands of them out there.

[Assistant] Somebody’s going to take this oral history and create a movie script or something based on this. They already have Armageddon [1998 film].

[User] They did, it was called Deep Impact [1998].

[Assistant] Deep Impact, yes.

[User] As we started early on in our program, within the last 20 years finding this out, then Hollywood kicks in, and does a movie of these things.

[Assistant] Scares everyone to death.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, they’re part of our business. We have a working arrangement with all the other space agencies about what we build, what they know we build, and then how we interface with what they build, how to launch it, and then manage it and operate it. That’s done on a basis that doesn’t provide the knowledge of a technology for what we build to that other country, the knowledge of how that technology is actually implemented. We have a number of instruments that we’ve built that are pretty high-tech that actually have flown on other agency missions. They really don’t have the insight as to what’s in that box that we deliver. The laws are set up that way for us to make sure that that happens that way. That’s what ITAR is. It’s part of international traffic in arms. That bill talks about technology transfer, that’s why it’s called ITAR.\n\n That’s an important element of our business, and our Centers know how to work it, they’re trained. We have ITAR specialists in this building. Whenever I have a variety of things that we’re doing, I consult our ITAR specialists, and I work with our international affairs group so that we get it and do it right.

[Assistant] What’s your role in negotiating some of these pieces of hardware or programs, missions, with your international partners?

[User] It’s me.

[Assistant] No staff?

[User] Yes, I get this bear and I bring it into the cabin and my staff has to skin it. That’s the story of how that goes.

[Assistant] Can you give an example?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were. I knew it. I could tell as soon as I read that script. I thought “Man, we’ve got to get involved in this. Really do.”\n\n I have a presentation. It’s called “The Martian: Science Fiction and Science Fact.” I’ve given it all over the world, from Beijing, to Canada, in the U.S., to Tokyo, to England, to Germany. Whenever I’m abroad and they know I’m there, they grab me and I end up giving it. I’ve been all over the place with it. It’s unbelievable.

[Assistant] What a great opportunity.

[User] It really was. It’s got a little bit of the backstory, but it also compares what we really know about Mars and how they implemented it. That’s what makes it fun. NASA approves the use of the meatball and also provides the ability for consultants and people in NASA to work with film producers. It doesn’t happen a lot, but there’s a lot of civil servants that get involved in that.\n\n For instance, at least one or two people in my organization have been consultants on several films. But they haven’t been as popular as The Martian. This was the very first one I did. If there was ever one to be on, this was it.

[Assistant] I think it was the best Mars film, like you said, I’ve seen. I’ve seen a lot of Mars films. I was going through them as you were talking, and I thought yes.

[User] I do too.

[Assistant]
The book was good.

The book was excellent, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It really was. It’s got a little bit of the backstory, but it also compares what we really know about Mars and how they implemented it. That’s what makes it fun. NASA approves the use of the meatball and also provides the ability for consultants and people in NASA to work with film producers. It doesn’t happen a lot, but there’s a lot of civil servants that get involved in that.\n\n For instance, at least one or two people in my organization have been consultants on several films. But they haven’t been as popular as The Martian. This was the very first one I did. If there was ever one to be on, this was it.

[Assistant] I think it was the best Mars film, like you said, I’ve seen. I’ve seen a lot of Mars films. I was going through them as you were talking, and I thought yes.

[User] I do too.

[Assistant]
The book was good.

The book was excellent, too.

[User] The book was good, yes. Right.

[Assistant] The book was hilarious, especially the comment about duct tape, something NASA couldn’t improve on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do too.

[Assistant]
The book was good.

The book was excellent, too.

[User] The book was good, yes. Right.

[Assistant] The book was hilarious, especially the comment about duct tape, something NASA couldn’t improve on.

[User] One thing I wanted them to do they didn’t do in the film was flip the rover. He flips the rover getting in Schiaparelli [Mars crater]. That would have been great to do, but they just ran out of time.

[Assistant] You can’t put everything in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The book was good, yes. Right.

[Assistant] The book was hilarious, especially the comment about duct tape, something NASA couldn’t improve on.

[User] One thing I wanted them to do they didn’t do in the film was flip the rover. He flips the rover getting in Schiaparelli [Mars crater]. That would have been great to do, but they just ran out of time.

[Assistant] You can’t put everything in.

[User] Which is too bad, can’t do everything. Another thing I wanted them to do that they didn’t do was in the end scene where Mark talks to the class. Early on in the movie he’s out in the field and he’s collecting samples, and he puts one sample in this little container. He talks about oh, the graininess, etc., etc. They have this banter back and forth while they’re deploying instruments.\n\n What I wanted them to do is when he leaves Ares 3 to go to Ares 4—he almost walks out of the hab without his helmet. He walks back in to get the helmet, and there’s that sample container. I wanted him to pick it up and take it with him. Then at the end of the movie where he’s at the class, and at the end of the class the kids are all filing out, and somebody comes in and says, “You’ve got to come downstairs in the lab, it’s about your sample.” Then end the movie there.

[Assistant]
Oh.

That would have been good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is too bad, can’t do everything. Another thing I wanted them to do that they didn’t do was in the end scene where Mark talks to the class. Early on in the movie he’s out in the field and he’s collecting samples, and he puts one sample in this little container. He talks about oh, the graininess, etc., etc. They have this banter back and forth while they’re deploying instruments.\n\n What I wanted them to do is when he leaves Ares 3 to go to Ares 4—he almost walks out of the hab without his helmet. He walks back in to get the helmet, and there’s that sample container. I wanted him to pick it up and take it with him. Then at the end of the movie where he’s at the class, and at the end of the class the kids are all filing out, and somebody comes in and says, “You’ve got to come downstairs in the lab, it’s about your sample.” Then end the movie there.

[Assistant]
Oh.

That would have been good.

[User] That would have been great, because it’s all about sample return. Which is Mars 2020, it’s bringing back the samples. That’s the next thing we have to do in this next decade, develop the missions and the capability to bring the samples back. This mission called Mars 2020 is going to core rock, put them in sleeves, and then we’re going to pick them up and bring them back. I wanted sample return to be a theme in the movie. I was driven to do that, but it didn’t go anywhere.

[Assistant] You tried.

[User] I tried. It was a great idea, didn’t happen.

[Assistant] I think this might be a good time to end. Thank you for taking so much of your afternoon and sharing this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We'll get to that. I'll get to that. Now, as I began thinking about this, I began using words we and us and our group and referring to our St. Thomas group of volunteers. And I think this was a very deliberate strategy on the part of the, I think in the end were very skillful about forging group identity, forging group cohesiveness. At the same time, Peace Corps was trying to be sort of evolving in its training methods. And I think Gloria would find for some of the earlier groups that there was a very rigorous selection process.

[Assistant] Yes, very academic.

[User] And people were quote deselected, I think was the term.

[Assistant] Very structured.

[User] This group was part of a transition from that rigid approach to what they termed self-selection. Now they had a cadre of psychologists as well as other staff people working with us and observing us and interviewing us. But I think their approach was to sort of press people who they saw as unfit to deselect themselves rather than imposing a top-down approach.

[Assistant] How large was your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This group was part of a transition from that rigid approach to what they termed self-selection. Now they had a cadre of psychologists as well as other staff people working with us and observing us and interviewing us. But I think their approach was to sort of press people who they saw as unfit to deselect themselves rather than imposing a top-down approach.

[Assistant] How large was your group?

[User] I bet there were 60, 70 of us just on St. Thomas.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] One of the aspects, I'll get to language training in a minute, was what were then called T groups or sensitivity training. They brought down a bunch of psychologists from some institute, I think it was in Maine, where one of the other groups was training. And we had sessions that, you know, were sort of trying to reveal and get at your inner feelings and so forth. I recall one session that ended very abruptly because the psychologist who was leading them was sort of losing it. And what I recall the discussion afterwards was that the psychologist had become very much infatuated with one of the trainees. It was very heavy, had great difficulty coping with his infatuation versus his professional role as a group leader.

[Assistant] So did he select himself out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I bet there were 60, 70 of us just on St. Thomas.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] One of the aspects, I'll get to language training in a minute, was what were then called T groups or sensitivity training. They brought down a bunch of psychologists from some institute, I think it was in Maine, where one of the other groups was training. And we had sessions that, you know, were sort of trying to reveal and get at your inner feelings and so forth. I recall one session that ended very abruptly because the psychologist who was leading them was sort of losing it. And what I recall the discussion afterwards was that the psychologist had become very much infatuated with one of the trainees. It was very heavy, had great difficulty coping with his infatuation versus his professional role as a group leader.

[Assistant] So did he select himself out?

[User] Well, he just, that one. I just recall that one group session abruptly ending because he was just so conflicted about his duality there. Another training exercise I recall. We were assigned to two person teams and one of us was blindfolded. And we spent the morning with the sighted person and the blindfolded person going through various activities. What occurred and what I recall from this exercise is the blindfolded folks very quickly beginning to assert their own independence. They just resented being held and guided. And sort of, please, I'd rather do it myself, kind of attitude. And just the most normal, you know, anything dangerous or anything. You're on a hillside and they were little steps.

[Assistant] Yes, fall off a cliff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he just, that one. I just recall that one group session abruptly ending because he was just so conflicted about his duality there. Another training exercise I recall. We were assigned to two person teams and one of us was blindfolded. And we spent the morning with the sighted person and the blindfolded person going through various activities. What occurred and what I recall from this exercise is the blindfolded folks very quickly beginning to assert their own independence. They just resented being held and guided. And sort of, please, I'd rather do it myself, kind of attitude. And just the most normal, you know, anything dangerous or anything. You're on a hillside and they were little steps.

[Assistant] Yes, fall off a cliff.

[User] The lesson, I think, was that people can be helped only when they are willing to accept that help, but only to the extent that they're willing to accept that.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] So it was an exercise in the helping relationship. To prepare us for language training, and it was after several weeks that a group of Ethiopians were brought in from Ethiopia to be our language trainers. I don't know if they were university students or just or other teachers. But they brought in six, eight, 10 Ethiopians.

[Assistant] Was their English good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The lesson, I think, was that people can be helped only when they are willing to accept that help, but only to the extent that they're willing to accept that.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] So it was an exercise in the helping relationship. To prepare us for language training, and it was after several weeks that a group of Ethiopians were brought in from Ethiopia to be our language trainers. I don't know if they were university students or just or other teachers. But they brought in six, eight, 10 Ethiopians.

[Assistant] Was their English good?

[User] I don't recall. I think their English was well enough. But to prepare us, one of the trainers sat us down. We had a big dining hall. We were all assembled in there and we were, of course, going to use a technique, the oral technique of language training. As a matter of fact, unlike earlier groups, we were never taught the Ethiopian alphabet, which is not a Phoenician letter alphabet.

[Assistant] Right, a script.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And this woman opined that the reason I wasn't remembering my dreams because I was very much focused on the present and what was going on in the present and dreams are reflective kind of exercise, and so reflection didn't matter. It was, you know, I sort of suppressed my dreams or didn't remember because I was so focused on the present. And I was greatly relieved that, you know, it wasn't anything, you know, dangerous and in any danger of being deselected. Because I literally had a very disastrous experience in graduate school and I was really anxious to do something and succeed. And what was going on at the same time is one of the fellows that I was friendly with, who actually was from the same neighborhood that I was in Chicago, was being pressured to deselect, and he ultimately did not go to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] Were you sleeping well?

[User] I think I slept pretty well.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] So I made it through training and then we were scheduled then to proceed for an additional five weeks of training in-country. And I recall going from St. Thomas to Puerto Rico first, had a couple of days off. Prinair, Puerto Rican International Airline, which has long ceased to exist. But I recall at the airport not only being asked to have my luggage weighed, but being asked how much I weighed.

[Assistant] Well, this is going to happen in the future apparently.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I slept pretty well.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] So I made it through training and then we were scheduled then to proceed for an additional five weeks of training in-country. And I recall going from St. Thomas to Puerto Rico first, had a couple of days off. Prinair, Puerto Rican International Airline, which has long ceased to exist. But I recall at the airport not only being asked to have my luggage weighed, but being asked how much I weighed.

[Assistant] Well, this is going to happen in the future apparently.

[User] But this little four engine prop jet just seemed like it just skimmed over the water.

[Assistant] That prepared you for Ethiopian Airlines.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I made it through training and then we were scheduled then to proceed for an additional five weeks of training in-country. And I recall going from St. Thomas to Puerto Rico first, had a couple of days off. Prinair, Puerto Rican International Airline, which has long ceased to exist. But I recall at the airport not only being asked to have my luggage weighed, but being asked how much I weighed.

[Assistant] Well, this is going to happen in the future apparently.

[User] But this little four engine prop jet just seemed like it just skimmed over the water.

[Assistant] That prepared you for Ethiopian Airlines.

[User]
Yeah. I bet I lost some weight anyway. But I stopped in Puerto Rico for a day or two. I have almost no recollection of that. Met my parents. We went together to New York for us to be the charter flight from New York, a KLM charter I believe, to Addis Ababa. So we got to the charter terminal. It was very chaotic. There'd been a bomb threat called in, and the rumor was, I don't know if it was later that I heard it, that somebody who was running late and was afraid they were going to miss the plane called in a bomb threat so there'd be a delay. So we waited around and they finally said that it was safe to board the plane. There was one couple who I didn't know, I think they were from the main training group or one of the other training groups, I didn't know them well. We all gathered for that charter together. They were just still too nervous to board the plane.

So Peace Corps asked them to go down to Washington, D.C., to be interviewed by staff to decide their fate. I was not permitted to board the plane because they couldn't find my passport.

[Assistant] Peace Corps issued passport.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps arranged for a special series of passports. What turned out that I had blocked printed my last name K-R-E-I-M-A-N. And somebody had mistaken a black R for an A. So it had been misfiled. In any event, the couple decided they were going to go ahead. I got called somewhere. I got put up in a hotel in New York somewhere overnight. I got some information somehow to meet this couple at the TWA terminal the next evening. They had found my passport. They had issued me a commercial ticket. And we got on a TWA nonstop flight to Athens.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it was set. The three of us were together for that. I recall having three seats to myself in a Boeing 707, having steak served in the coach dinner and buying a small bottle of champagne to go with it. And I tried to get some sleep because I knew I was, it was my first trip overseas. I was really excited. We got to Athens and we had until 2:00 a.m. the next morning. They gave us a hotel room and we probably napped for all of an hour and a half, and we immediately embarked on a whirlwind tour of Athens. And in those days before the restoration efforts, we not only got to climb to the top of the Acropolis, but we actually walked through the Parthenon, which a short time thereafter, it was roped off and sealed as they went through an extensive restoration.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] But we did a whole series of, I think we visited the National Museum. We went to the Acropolis, a few other things. And then we had to get up around 11:00 or 12:00 and go out to the airport to meet an Ethiopian Airlines plane that was supposed to depart around 2:00 a.m. and had come from Frankfurt, stopped in Athens. I think it stopped in Alexandria or Cairo and maybe Asmara as well. And then was scheduled to land in Addis Ababa at daybreak. Because they couldn't land sooner because there were no landing lights.

[Assistant] There's no lights. Right, I remember that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was set. The three of us were together for that. I recall having three seats to myself in a Boeing 707, having steak served in the coach dinner and buying a small bottle of champagne to go with it. And I tried to get some sleep because I knew I was, it was my first trip overseas. I was really excited. We got to Athens and we had until 2:00 a.m. the next morning. They gave us a hotel room and we probably napped for all of an hour and a half, and we immediately embarked on a whirlwind tour of Athens. And in those days before the restoration efforts, we not only got to climb to the top of the Acropolis, but we actually walked through the Parthenon, which a short time thereafter, it was roped off and sealed as they went through an extensive restoration.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] But we did a whole series of, I think we visited the National Museum. We went to the Acropolis, a few other things. And then we had to get up around 11:00 or 12:00 and go out to the airport to meet an Ethiopian Airlines plane that was supposed to depart around 2:00 a.m. and had come from Frankfurt, stopped in Athens. I think it stopped in Alexandria or Cairo and maybe Asmara as well. And then was scheduled to land in Addis Ababa at daybreak. Because they couldn't land sooner because there were no landing lights.

[Assistant] There's no lights. Right, I remember that.

[User] At the national airport. So we got, I got to Addis Ababa. I had missed the charter flight, but I was soon joined up.

[Assistant] Reunited with your group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we did a whole series of, I think we visited the National Museum. We went to the Acropolis, a few other things. And then we had to get up around 11:00 or 12:00 and go out to the airport to meet an Ethiopian Airlines plane that was supposed to depart around 2:00 a.m. and had come from Frankfurt, stopped in Athens. I think it stopped in Alexandria or Cairo and maybe Asmara as well. And then was scheduled to land in Addis Ababa at daybreak. Because they couldn't land sooner because there were no landing lights.

[Assistant] There's no lights. Right, I remember that.

[User] At the national airport. So we got, I got to Addis Ababa. I had missed the charter flight, but I was soon joined up.

[Assistant] Reunited with your group.

[User] With the group. We were put up at a hotel across the street from what was then Peace Corps headquarters, the area known as Arat Kilo. I think that means it was like four kilometers from some landmark, maybe city hall or something.

[Assistant] The palace or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the national airport. So we got, I got to Addis Ababa. I had missed the charter flight, but I was soon joined up.

[Assistant] Reunited with your group.

[User] With the group. We were put up at a hotel across the street from what was then Peace Corps headquarters, the area known as Arat Kilo. I think that means it was like four kilometers from some landmark, maybe city hall or something.

[Assistant] The palace or?

[User] Whatever. A place called the International Hotel. Served pretty good cappuccino.

[Assistant] At the bar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With the group. We were put up at a hotel across the street from what was then Peace Corps headquarters, the area known as Arat Kilo. I think that means it was like four kilometers from some landmark, maybe city hall or something.

[Assistant] The palace or?

[User] Whatever. A place called the International Hotel. Served pretty good cappuccino.

[Assistant] At the bar.

[User] So, um. What happened next?

[Assistant] Well, let me just ask one question. I think it's so unusual that your Ethiopia X group was split into three subsections, trained separately, and then you all met in Addis Ababa. Is that it? And yet you were supposed to bond as a group and have some feeling.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um. What happened next?

[Assistant] Well, let me just ask one question. I think it's so unusual that your Ethiopia X group was split into three subsections, trained separately, and then you all met in Addis Ababa. Is that it? And yet you were supposed to bond as a group and have some feeling.

[User] Well, you know, I think there was. The St. Thomas people bonded with St. Thomas people more than they did with the St. Croix or the Maine people.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think there was subgroup identities forged among the people who trained together for that initial seven-week period.

[Assistant] Right. I find that unusual. Now how did that work out when you got your assignments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was just. Well, you know, the people, then you began, the issue was the people in your own town.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So that became a whole different bonding process.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] A little bit more about the training. They apparently found some students who were willing to come to summer school and they had us do practice teaching. So we started some teacher exercises and I think we were observed and given additional guidance and pedagogical approaches to teaching English as a second language. I think one of the things I recall being struck by was the physical demands of being up in front of a classroom for several periods a day. I remember the first day just feeling physically wiped out. It was just incredible. You know, after a while, you sort of got into shape and you were able to handle, I think by the end, by Asella, I was handling five, even six periods a day of teaching.

[Assistant] As part of your training, was any physical conditioning like running around the track or doing jumping jacks, part of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit more about the training. They apparently found some students who were willing to come to summer school and they had us do practice teaching. So we started some teacher exercises and I think we were observed and given additional guidance and pedagogical approaches to teaching English as a second language. I think one of the things I recall being struck by was the physical demands of being up in front of a classroom for several periods a day. I remember the first day just feeling physically wiped out. It was just incredible. You know, after a while, you sort of got into shape and you were able to handle, I think by the end, by Asella, I was handling five, even six periods a day of teaching.

[Assistant] As part of your training, was any physical conditioning like running around the track or doing jumping jacks, part of it?

[User] We had sports down in, uh.

[Assistant] Soccer?

[User] Yeah, there was some volleyball and some other stuff, but I think we just did a lot of walking and a lot of, uh, we did not have any organized physical training, unlike earlier sessions.

[Assistant] Because of the altitude of Addis Ababa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he was shocked to see somebody speaking even a crude Amharic that I was exhibiting. But some of it has still stuck with me.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So we passed the training. I guess at some point we were formally sworn-in as volunteers. Because actually, until you were completed training, you were not a volunteer. And when you get your calculation of how many months of service, you know, it ended up being 21 months of Peace Corps service, which had an impact on me later that I'll talk about. So I guess, it was like September officially that we were sworn-in, through June or early July two years later. So it was 21 months. I was assigned to Asella. I took a bus down there, sort of a pre-trip and met. All the volunteers were not back. There were three volunteers who were extending for the third year in Asella.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] So they had had a free trip home over the summer.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. Forgot that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we passed the training. I guess at some point we were formally sworn-in as volunteers. Because actually, until you were completed training, you were not a volunteer. And when you get your calculation of how many months of service, you know, it ended up being 21 months of Peace Corps service, which had an impact on me later that I'll talk about. So I guess, it was like September officially that we were sworn-in, through June or early July two years later. So it was 21 months. I was assigned to Asella. I took a bus down there, sort of a pre-trip and met. All the volunteers were not back. There were three volunteers who were extending for the third year in Asella.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] So they had had a free trip home over the summer.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. Forgot that.

[User] That's what they did for people who extended for the third year. So there was just one or two people, volunteers, there. My understanding of Asella, it had one high school for the entire province.

[Assistant] Typical of that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And previous, some years prior, no one from that school had ever passed the 12th grade leaving exam. This was a very British model. Elementary, secondary education where you had leaving exams at each stage at eighth grade, twelfth grade. And I was told by these other volunteers, and I'm not sure if it's totally true, that a whole cadre of Peace Corps volunteers were assigned to the secondary school in an attempt to upgrade and see what they could accomplish. The end of the previous year, the year just before I came, they claimed that this secondary school. It was named Ras Darge [inaudible Amharic], Ras Darge Secondary School. And we'll talk about who Ras Darge was. Had the highest pass rate of any high school outside of Addis Ababa and Asmara, the two major cities.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] And they had science teachers and math teachers and English teachers who were all Americans. They had like seven Peace Corps volunteers at this one high school.

[Assistant] Oh, interesting.

[User] As a way of upgrading. And apparently it paid off, and they had also assigned an extremely knowledgeable, intelligent school director. His name was Gabahut Bely. He was a graduate not only of Haile Selassie University, but he was a graduate of Orde Wingate High School. Now, if you'll indulge my historical, I'm a historian by training. Orde Wingate was the British general that led a group of irregular forces from British East Africa, along with Ethiopian rebels, to dislodge the Italians in 1941. And Wingate was sort of a legend in Ethiopia, and in the years right after the Second World War, they established a sort of an elite high school and named it for Orde Wingate. And this is where all the best students went.

[Assistant] In Addis Ababa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they had science teachers and math teachers and English teachers who were all Americans. They had like seven Peace Corps volunteers at this one high school.

[Assistant] Oh, interesting.

[User] As a way of upgrading. And apparently it paid off, and they had also assigned an extremely knowledgeable, intelligent school director. His name was Gabahut Bely. He was a graduate not only of Haile Selassie University, but he was a graduate of Orde Wingate High School. Now, if you'll indulge my historical, I'm a historian by training. Orde Wingate was the British general that led a group of irregular forces from British East Africa, along with Ethiopian rebels, to dislodge the Italians in 1941. And Wingate was sort of a legend in Ethiopia, and in the years right after the Second World War, they established a sort of an elite high school and named it for Orde Wingate. And this is where all the best students went.

[Assistant] In Addis Ababa?

[User] In Addis Ababa. And Gabahut Bely was one of the elite students who graduated from Orde Wingate School. And it was kind of interesting. [tape break] Yes, the assignment of Gabahut Bely to a provincial school like Ras Garde was another aspect of the effort to try to upgrade the instruction. The faculty was, there were some Ethiopians. Otto George Tesema was a math teacher. Otto Mehari Mesfin was, we believed, from the Falasha tribe. He was an industrial arts teacher. He was a graduate of the agricultural school somewhere out west. I can't remember where the agricultural school or the name of the.

[Assistant] That's the Russian based one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Addis Ababa. And Gabahut Bely was one of the elite students who graduated from Orde Wingate School. And it was kind of interesting. [tape break] Yes, the assignment of Gabahut Bely to a provincial school like Ras Garde was another aspect of the effort to try to upgrade the instruction. The faculty was, there were some Ethiopians. Otto George Tesema was a math teacher. Otto Mehari Mesfin was, we believed, from the Falasha tribe. He was an industrial arts teacher. He was a graduate of the agricultural school somewhere out west. I can't remember where the agricultural school or the name of the.

[Assistant] That's the Russian based one?

[User] Not sure.

[Assistant] OK.

[User]
We had Indian contract teachers from the country of India. They were paid rather well. They lived rather well. I found many of them to be very congenial. But also many of us Americans found it a little concerning about their attitudes towards the Ethiopians. I think there's, uh, the psychologist would say that having been the victims of British colonialization and the British haughty condescension to India. And yet the Indians with the pride in their own history and culture, having come to Ethiopia, they sort of were a bit haughty towards the Ethiopians. And some of them at least didn't treat them very well. We got very friendly with one of the French teachers, Eric d'Ecole, and the other two were pretty standoffish. They had a car and they would go into Addis Ababa every week, and they just didn't deal with us very well.

We also had university students. At the time, Ethiopian university students between the third and fourth year had to spend a year of service.

[Assistant] I remember that, national service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not sure.

[Assistant] OK.

[User]
We had Indian contract teachers from the country of India. They were paid rather well. They lived rather well. I found many of them to be very congenial. But also many of us Americans found it a little concerning about their attitudes towards the Ethiopians. I think there's, uh, the psychologist would say that having been the victims of British colonialization and the British haughty condescension to India. And yet the Indians with the pride in their own history and culture, having come to Ethiopia, they sort of were a bit haughty towards the Ethiopians. And some of them at least didn't treat them very well. We got very friendly with one of the French teachers, Eric d'Ecole, and the other two were pretty standoffish. They had a car and they would go into Addis Ababa every week, and they just didn't deal with us very well.

We also had university students. At the time, Ethiopian university students between the third and fourth year had to spend a year of service.

[Assistant] I remember that, national service.

[User] And so there were five or six students at our high school.

[Assistant] In teacher training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, they were just assigned as teachers. They just took classroom assignment. And I remember one of them, Mulegeta, helped me negotiate my lease for my house. As for the Peace Corps contingent in this provincial place there, in addition to myself, there was Bob Bass, a math teacher in his third year. His wife, Betty Bass, who was a science teacher. Arthur Hall, who was a math teacher, also in his third year. Jack Hamilton, who was a science teacher in the second year. Elizabeth Rogers, I think she taught English in her second year. And then the new teachers, in addition to myself, were Loretta Huber, now Loretta Huber Davis, who as we speak is in Ethiopia, in Shashamane. Tom Scully and his wife, Andrea Scully. And I can't quite recall what subjects they taught.

A moment about one of the Ethiopian teachers, the university students. His name was Johannes Sabatu. As I understand it, that would mean Johannes the Seventh. There is an emperor in Ethiopian history, if you read The Blue Nile by Alan Moorehead, Johannes the Fourth. I have, I don't know recall who may have told me that he was a descendant of this Ethiopian emperor. He was also, as many young Ethiopians were, very much against the monarchy, very much communist, socialist, radical. He and some of the other teachers later on were said to be the precipitators of some student unrest that I'll get into in a minute.

A minute about, a moment about my house, the house I moved into after living with one of the other volunteers for a while. The houses were built on a foundation, I think usually of cement or sort of.

[Assistant] Of stones?

[User] Stone or something, a slab. And then the walls were built of rough wood lattice tied together with a mud adobe kind of finish.

[Assistant] Cheekabay.

[User] Cheekachamin, yeah. So cheekabay, the mud walls. We had glass windows. We had a metal corrugated roof.

[Assistant] Was it square or round?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Stone or something, a slab. And then the walls were built of rough wood lattice tied together with a mud adobe kind of finish.

[Assistant] Cheekabay.

[User] Cheekachamin, yeah. So cheekabay, the mud walls. We had glass windows. We had a metal corrugated roof.

[Assistant] Was it square or round?

[User] It was square. It was a foreign style. It was in a modern style, not the round, but it was, you know.

[Assistant] With the metal corrugated roof?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we'd go there occasionally and stay there for a night and the decent food, cold beer, hot springs pool was just a way to get away and relax. So I arrived in town and stayed with one of the other volunteers for a while just to get oriented. But for whatever reason, the custom was not to share houses, except for the married couples of course. Everybody had their own place. I guess there's a, it sort of followed the norm, what had gone on in the town previously. I had help negotiating a lease. And I was given advice that my outhouse, and this is one of the selling points of this house, had a very good outhouse. It had a very good draining hole and very.

[Assistant] Well built.

[User] Well built.

[Assistant] Private.

[User] And it was very functional. Just before, I'll mention that since this was the only high school in the province, students who were from other towns had to find a way to live in the town in order to continue their education. So the custom that I was told was to bring in some students to live with you, to work for you, paid them a small salary. They did chores for you. And usually one of the outbuildings was sufficient for their housing. So I had two students with me. One of them changed after a while. But the first year was Solomon Ashektu and Abate Moconan. And we came home from school one day, this is one of the tales. I went outside and one of the things that was required to keep the smell down was powdered line.

[Assistant] Right, big sacks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well built.

[Assistant] Private.

[User] And it was very functional. Just before, I'll mention that since this was the only high school in the province, students who were from other towns had to find a way to live in the town in order to continue their education. So the custom that I was told was to bring in some students to live with you, to work for you, paid them a small salary. They did chores for you. And usually one of the outbuildings was sufficient for their housing. So I had two students with me. One of them changed after a while. But the first year was Solomon Ashektu and Abate Moconan. And we came home from school one day, this is one of the tales. I went outside and one of the things that was required to keep the smell down was powdered line.

[Assistant] Right, big sacks.

[User] Big sacks of lime. So I bought a sack of powdered lime for my outhouse, and I came in and it was gone. And we started walking with Solomon and Abate, we started walking and there was a trail of powder going across my compound to the fence, every house had a.

[Assistant] A hole in your fence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Big sacks of lime. So I bought a sack of powdered lime for my outhouse, and I came in and it was gone. And we started walking with Solomon and Abate, we started walking and there was a trail of powder going across my compound to the fence, every house had a.

[Assistant] A hole in your fence.

[User] There's a hole in the fence. And we looked through, got through, it was a fairly large hole. And there at our next door neighbor's was one of their buildings. And there are several buildings in their compound, freshly painted. Well, that was powdered lime, when mixed with water is used.

[Assistant] The whitewash.

[User] As a whitewash. Yeah. And here was this freshly painted, you know, ample evidence that they had come in and stolen my lime and used it to paint the buildings. I was torn. I was first of all, I was angry that it had been stolen, and I tried to use whatever abhorrent words that I knew to, leba, which is a thief. Mini ayineti sewi, you know, what kind of person are you?

[Assistant] Were your students helping you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's a hole in the fence. And we looked through, got through, it was a fairly large hole. And there at our next door neighbor's was one of their buildings. And there are several buildings in their compound, freshly painted. Well, that was powdered lime, when mixed with water is used.

[Assistant] The whitewash.

[User] As a whitewash. Yeah. And here was this freshly painted, you know, ample evidence that they had come in and stolen my lime and used it to paint the buildings. I was torn. I was first of all, I was angry that it had been stolen, and I tried to use whatever abhorrent words that I knew to, leba, which is a thief. Mini ayineti sewi, you know, what kind of person are you?

[Assistant] Were your students helping you?

[User] The students were helping, yeah. In any event, but we got no satisfaction from this, and we just sort of left in disgust.

[Assistant] They didn't offer you a chicken?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a whitewash. Yeah. And here was this freshly painted, you know, ample evidence that they had come in and stolen my lime and used it to paint the buildings. I was torn. I was first of all, I was angry that it had been stolen, and I tried to use whatever abhorrent words that I knew to, leba, which is a thief. Mini ayineti sewi, you know, what kind of person are you?

[Assistant] Were your students helping you?

[User] The students were helping, yeah. In any event, but we got no satisfaction from this, and we just sort of left in disgust.

[Assistant] They didn't offer you a chicken?

[User] No, they sort of were denying everything. And I guess they just swapped out, the rich foreigner moved in, it's OK to take whatever's available. So after I threw whatever insults I could recall from my language training, we got the fence fixed. We got a bag of lime, another bag of lime. And then I turned to Abate who was from a nearby town, Iteya, and I said, Abate, do you know anybody who has a dog that they'd like to sell? So Abate went home the next weekend at my expense and brought back initially a puppy and he became my guard dog. So we don't have any more.

[Assistant] OK. That was rare, wasn't it, to have a dog?