[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember exactly where I was, but I remember watching it closely on television and being very stimulated by the event. It represented a goal of achievement that everyone had been striving for all those years.

[Assistant] If I can go back a little bit to when you were being interviewed for a position at NASA, do you remember who you interviewed with?

[User] Only vaguely. I suspect it was Chris Kraft and perhaps Max [Maxime A.] Faget. There were, I believe, three or four engineers from NASA. Of course, being nervous at the time, the names didn't stick.

[Assistant] Do you remember what they told you about the job you would do, or about the program at that time?

[User] Well, just to the extent of the need for the trajectory-type calculation and the computer work, which sounded quite appropriate. I think I might have even taken them on a tour of our computer installation at that time, even though it had been largely closed down. We were just a skeleton staff in the Engineering Department and the Computer Department. But the computer was still operational, because IBM wasn't sure what to do with it. They owned it and we rented it from them. I actually ran a few problems, more or less single-handed, for some of the engineers at that time on the 704 computer.\n\n So I did show the visitors around. We were very proud of it. As I say, it was also the only one of its kind in Canada. Canadian industry was always lagging a little bit behind U.S. industry, probably for financial reasons, as much as anything.

[Assistant] When you got to Virginia and you started working with NASA, were the Canadian engineers accepted, or did you keep together in a group? How was that relationship between [the AVRO] engineers and NASA [engineers]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, anything that was available was put at our disposal. Early on, we did acquire our own small computer. Even a small computer in those days probably cost about $100,000. So it was felt that we needed that and it became available soon after. So, yes, we were very happy with that arrangement.

[Assistant] Computer technology has just grown exponentially in the last thirty years. Can you give us some kind of comparison of what type of computers you were working with?

[User] Well, I guess the best analogy is the million-dollar computers, as they cost then, the IBM 704 and the IBM 7090. Those had a power comparable to what you now get in a desktop computer, a personal computer. So it's hard to visualize the tremendous advances that have taken place, particularly not only memory capacity, speed, but finally in programming software. It's finally caught up to where you feel a lot more confident when you're using a computer these days. You don't have to worry about what is going to happen. We were always worried about when the computer might break down or the programs might break down at a critical time. So that was why we used extensive backup, one computer supporting another, so you could switch over if that became necessary. But that, again, added expense.

[Assistant] So did you feel confident going into each mission, you and your colleagues, that what had been done was correct? Did you have that confidence in your computers and in your work at that time?

[User] Yes, we'd run so many calculations and did so many tests and cross-checks in cooperation with the trajectory specialists, we knew that it was behaving the way it should. As I say, we actually did see the capsule come over the horizon when it was calculated to come over. That's the most tangible type of reassurance that things are working properly. It was very impressive, the way that worked.

[Assistant] How do you feel about NASA's use of computers at that time and how the space program helped advance computer technology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we'd run so many calculations and did so many tests and cross-checks in cooperation with the trajectory specialists, we knew that it was behaving the way it should. As I say, we actually did see the capsule come over the horizon when it was calculated to come over. That's the most tangible type of reassurance that things are working properly. It was very impressive, the way that worked.

[Assistant] How do you feel about NASA's use of computers at that time and how the space program helped advance computer technology?

[User] There's no question that the space program put big demands on computer research, both for the ground-based computers that I was involved with, but even more so for the spaceborne computers, the computers on the spacecraft. Those had to be miniaturized to a much greater extent, obviously, made very lightweight and very reliable. That was where the big demand on the computer research was put.\n\n There were many, many talented laboratories working on those kind of problems, and it was remarkable how quickly the miniaturization actually did take place in the circuitry. You could see it from month to month, almost, the circuits getting smaller and smaller. At the same time they became more reliable because of the different manufacturing techniques that were used to produce the circuits. So that was very impressive to see.

[Assistant] You stayed involved with computers after you left NASA?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about what you did after leaving NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You are going to follow his launch? I guess it's next week.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, that will be something to see, to see how he does react at his stage of things. I'm sure he'll do it.

[Assistant] Well, we're looking forward to seeing it.\n\n When you were younger, when you were growing up, was there anything that you were doing at that point in time that led to your further interest, like working on model airplanes, or did you really enjoy certain studies in school?

[User] I guess mathematics was an interest of mine and it came fairly easily. I was fortunate to have a teacher in high school mathematics who was willing to spend extra time with me after school and give me problems that were outside the regular role. I learned quite a bit that way. That may have been what led me to take mathematics at the university. But as I say, even as an undergraduate, one could never visualize that there would be a demand for mathematicians through the use of computers. So that was a very pleasant surprise in later years.

[Assistant]
That's all the questions that I have.

Before we close, I think you have several papers and photos out. Are there any of those that you would like to tell us about or explain to us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, that's one computer. It fills a small warehouse. They're all connected together by cables under the floor. It's a false floor. The operator is in one position doing the control work. The memory is a separate box. Then there are the half a dozen magnetic tape units. The card-reader, the printer was just an old tabulating machine that IBM attached as the main output device. So you had to have all these pieces working together smoothly to run a program.

[Assistant] How many people did it take to keep it operating and running smoothly?

[User] You can see in this photo, typically at least two dozen people. There's John Shoosmith in the center, and myself over on the side. These were the programmers, operators, and maintenance staff, the maintenance staff supplied by IBM on a permanent basis. They essentially had to live with the computer to keep it running. It required daily maintenance and changing the vacuum tubes that were used as circuit elements. Well, that's what helped contribute to the expense of running these computers, as well.\n\n You can see the dramatic difference not only in speed and price, but in size, when you go from the warehouse-size computer. This was small. When I visited other aircraft companies, they would have two or three of these computers all together in a huge warehouse. So it was an expensive investment.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to share with us before we close?

[User] Well, I'd just like to say that it's been a very satisfying experience to be able to reminisce with you. Your questions are very appropriate and stimulating. As I said earlier, I'm glad to have been invited to participate.

[Assistant] We've enjoyed hearing your stories. We really have. They'll be a valuable addition to our oral history collection.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can see in this photo, typically at least two dozen people. There's John Shoosmith in the center, and myself over on the side. These were the programmers, operators, and maintenance staff, the maintenance staff supplied by IBM on a permanent basis. They essentially had to live with the computer to keep it running. It required daily maintenance and changing the vacuum tubes that were used as circuit elements. Well, that's what helped contribute to the expense of running these computers, as well.\n\n You can see the dramatic difference not only in speed and price, but in size, when you go from the warehouse-size computer. This was small. When I visited other aircraft companies, they would have two or three of these computers all together in a huge warehouse. So it was an expensive investment.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to share with us before we close?

[User] Well, I'd just like to say that it's been a very satisfying experience to be able to reminisce with you. Your questions are very appropriate and stimulating. As I said earlier, I'm glad to have been invited to participate.

[Assistant] We've enjoyed hearing your stories. We really have. They'll be a valuable addition to our oral history collection.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, partly it was the Marine Corps, which I think might surprise a lot of people, but I was in the Marine Corps before the Peace Corps, and that made me sort of aware of what a lot of the rest of the world was like. I was stationed in Okinawa for my last year and a half and seeing Okinawa itself. But I guess the thing that really impressed me was we had a big exercise and landing exercise in Formosa or Taiwan or whatever name you want to go about. And I was just amazed at the poverty that I saw there. Now I had grown up in a pretty poor section of Baltimore and we weren't rich, but that was a whole other, whole other thing. So it was that, I think seeing what some of the rest of the world was like, and then a girl that I was dating was going to somewhere in Africa, not with Peace Corps, with some other volunteer thing. And she sort of convinced me, why don't you go ahead and apply to Peace Corps. So I did and I got in and went to training.

[Assistant] OK, so what did your family? Well, I guess how long had you been in the Marines?

[User] Well, I was in Marine Corps for three years.

[Assistant] Three years. So you were out.

[User] Three years plus three months of training.

[Assistant] So this was all post-college? Had you gone to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was in Marine Corps for three years.

[Assistant] Three years. So you were out.

[User] Three years plus three months of training.

[Assistant] So this was all post-college? Had you gone to college?

[User] I had graduated from Dartmouth with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in biology. And then went in the Marine Corps, came back, and went to graduate school at Yale, where I got a master's in forestry. And then after that I joined Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So by that time, your parents knew you were a world traveler. How did they react to your idea of going into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three years plus three months of training.

[Assistant] So this was all post-college? Had you gone to college?

[User] I had graduated from Dartmouth with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in biology. And then went in the Marine Corps, came back, and went to graduate school at Yale, where I got a master's in forestry. And then after that I joined Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So by that time, your parents knew you were a world traveler. How did they react to your idea of going into the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, my mother, I think. It was only really my father, he was generally happy with whatever I did. But my mother had seen some ads about Peace Corps paying $75 a day to recruiters, and she wrote a letter to Kennedy complaining that her son was worth a lot more than these guys. And so I was, in a way I was sort of surprised I ever heard from Peace Corps after that. I mean, she was not happy about it. I think once I went and so forth and I think she was happy. But she didn't like the fact that I'd worked hard to get all this education and was wasting my time doing something else.

[Assistant] And clearly your girlfriend thought it was a good idea. What did your other friends say about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had graduated from Dartmouth with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in biology. And then went in the Marine Corps, came back, and went to graduate school at Yale, where I got a master's in forestry. And then after that I joined Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So by that time, your parents knew you were a world traveler. How did they react to your idea of going into the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, my mother, I think. It was only really my father, he was generally happy with whatever I did. But my mother had seen some ads about Peace Corps paying $75 a day to recruiters, and she wrote a letter to Kennedy complaining that her son was worth a lot more than these guys. And so I was, in a way I was sort of surprised I ever heard from Peace Corps after that. I mean, she was not happy about it. I think once I went and so forth and I think she was happy. But she didn't like the fact that I'd worked hard to get all this education and was wasting my time doing something else.

[Assistant] And clearly your girlfriend thought it was a good idea. What did your other friends say about that?

[User] Um, I can't remember anybody saying much of anything about it.

[Assistant] This was early in the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my mother, I think. It was only really my father, he was generally happy with whatever I did. But my mother had seen some ads about Peace Corps paying $75 a day to recruiters, and she wrote a letter to Kennedy complaining that her son was worth a lot more than these guys. And so I was, in a way I was sort of surprised I ever heard from Peace Corps after that. I mean, she was not happy about it. I think once I went and so forth and I think she was happy. But she didn't like the fact that I'd worked hard to get all this education and was wasting my time doing something else.

[Assistant] And clearly your girlfriend thought it was a good idea. What did your other friends say about that?

[User] Um, I can't remember anybody saying much of anything about it.

[Assistant] This was early in the Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we were the second agricultural group in Ecuador. The first one was a year before that and they were, I think they were either the first group in Ecuador or very close to it.

[Assistant] So you applied for the Peace Corps and did you hear very soon from them or did you have to wait a long time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I can't remember anybody saying much of anything about it.

[Assistant] This was early in the Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we were the second agricultural group in Ecuador. The first one was a year before that and they were, I think they were either the first group in Ecuador or very close to it.

[Assistant] So you applied for the Peace Corps and did you hear very soon from them or did you have to wait a long time?

[User] Well, I don't remember now how long the wait was. It was, I guess, in a way longer than I had expected. And I don't even remember now for sure exactly when I heard from them. But I guess I was surprised that it was Ecuador. They had been advertising that they needed foresters in Nepal, and I was pretty sure that's where I was going and I was really looking forward to going to Nepal.

[Assistant] Climbing mountains, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we were the second agricultural group in Ecuador. The first one was a year before that and they were, I think they were either the first group in Ecuador or very close to it.

[Assistant] So you applied for the Peace Corps and did you hear very soon from them or did you have to wait a long time?

[User] Well, I don't remember now how long the wait was. It was, I guess, in a way longer than I had expected. And I don't even remember now for sure exactly when I heard from them. But I guess I was surprised that it was Ecuador. They had been advertising that they needed foresters in Nepal, and I was pretty sure that's where I was going and I was really looking forward to going to Nepal.

[Assistant] Climbing mountains, right?

[User] Yeah. Well, I had written a big English paper on mountaineering in the Himalayas, so I was, you know, this was.

[Assistant] You were ready.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't remember now how long the wait was. It was, I guess, in a way longer than I had expected. And I don't even remember now for sure exactly when I heard from them. But I guess I was surprised that it was Ecuador. They had been advertising that they needed foresters in Nepal, and I was pretty sure that's where I was going and I was really looking forward to going to Nepal.

[Assistant] Climbing mountains, right?

[User] Yeah. Well, I had written a big English paper on mountaineering in the Himalayas, so I was, you know, this was.

[Assistant] You were ready.

[User] I was ready to go. But anyway. And then when I applied there was a thing on the application, is there anywhere you don't want to go, as well as where you want to go. And I decided I wasn't going to say I didn't want to go to Latin America because I just thought that might not be a very good idea if I wanted to get into Peace Corps. I didn't really, I didn't want to go to Latin America, and I was pretty sure I would not go to Latin America because I didn't speak Spanish. I didn't speak Nepalese either, but I figured they weren't going to find very many people who did. But I was sure they would never send me Latin America cause I didn't speak Spanish. Well, sure enough, that's where I ended up, and I'd always been very happy that I did. My wife is Ecuadorian. I didn't meet her as a Peace Corps volunteer, but I met her later on.

[Assistant] OK, that's another story. So Ecuador. And I guess there are mountains in Ecuador.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, I had written a big English paper on mountaineering in the Himalayas, so I was, you know, this was.

[Assistant] You were ready.

[User] I was ready to go. But anyway. And then when I applied there was a thing on the application, is there anywhere you don't want to go, as well as where you want to go. And I decided I wasn't going to say I didn't want to go to Latin America because I just thought that might not be a very good idea if I wanted to get into Peace Corps. I didn't really, I didn't want to go to Latin America, and I was pretty sure I would not go to Latin America because I didn't speak Spanish. I didn't speak Nepalese either, but I figured they weren't going to find very many people who did. But I was sure they would never send me Latin America cause I didn't speak Spanish. Well, sure enough, that's where I ended up, and I'd always been very happy that I did. My wife is Ecuadorian. I didn't meet her as a Peace Corps volunteer, but I met her later on.

[Assistant] OK, that's another story. So Ecuador. And I guess there are mountains in Ecuador.

[User] Oh yeah. Snow covered mountains.

[Assistant] You got to go, um, did you get to go climbing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Snow covered mountains.

[Assistant] You got to go, um, did you get to go climbing?

[User] Well, I didn't really. I guess. A buddy of mine. Well, my third year in Ecuador, I was living in Quito and I lived up on the side of Pichincha. And I had kept saying, I want to climb this one day. And our Heifer Project person who was sort of responsible for overseeing me or visiting me or whatever, he climbed mountains. He was, I mean, he was a rescuer in all kinds of and he was Ecuadorian. Anyway, I asked him, what's the best route up Mount Pichincha? He said, just start at the bottom and walk up. So I started at my house and we walked up. And that was not the best route because we got up to what I thought was going to be close to the top and it was going to go on and on and on forever. So we turned, we sort of looped around the big chasm and went out and looked around and stuff. But we didn't, we never got to the top of it. But that's all the climbing I really did. I lived in the mountains.

[Assistant] Well, let's back up a little bit. We're jumping ahead. You got selected. Where was your training?

[User] OK, our training was at Montana State College, in those days. It's now Montana State University. And I think the group, the agricultural group the year before us had also trained there. And I don't know what else to say about it. I mean, it was very good training.

[Assistant] Was it good training? Talk about the language training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, our training was at Montana State College, in those days. It's now Montana State University. And I think the group, the agricultural group the year before us had also trained there. And I don't know what else to say about it. I mean, it was very good training.

[Assistant] Was it good training? Talk about the language training.

[User] The language training was especially good, I think. They had the head of the language department, the Spanish department, from the University of Arizona was there to lead it. And let's see, my first teacher, I'm not sure where he was from. But in all the classes, we had a teacher and an assistant, and that teacher's assistant was a Cuban, um, you know, what, ran away from Cuba?

[Assistant] Refugee, yeah.

[User] Refugee. He'd been a pharmacist there, and his wife had been a, I think an English teacher or something. You know, she'd been a teacher, so he was there as an assistant. His wife was in charge of a group. And I started out in his group, which was the bottom end of the language ability, Group H I think it was. After about a month, I moved to into Group B or C.

[Assistant] Hey, that's moving up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Refugee. He'd been a pharmacist there, and his wife had been a, I think an English teacher or something. You know, she'd been a teacher, so he was there as an assistant. His wife was in charge of a group. And I started out in his group, which was the bottom end of the language ability, Group H I think it was. After about a month, I moved to into Group B or C.

[Assistant] Hey, that's moving up.

[User] Which was his wife's group.

[Assistant] Excellent.

[User] Yeah. Well, I was happy. I thought I didn't, I mean. Well, pronunciation was my biggest, biggest problem was just learning to pronounce what was it, N? I remember that I couldn't say el, I always said L. And once the head of the language program knew about that, any time he'd see me, he'd say, say el. And I'd say, L.

[Assistant] So you've learned how to say el?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was his wife's group.

[Assistant] Excellent.

[User] Yeah. Well, I was happy. I thought I didn't, I mean. Well, pronunciation was my biggest, biggest problem was just learning to pronounce what was it, N? I remember that I couldn't say el, I always said L. And once the head of the language program knew about that, any time he'd see me, he'd say, say el. And I'd say, L.

[Assistant] So you've learned how to say el?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We'll talk about your many years in Latin America.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, I was happy. I thought I didn't, I mean. Well, pronunciation was my biggest, biggest problem was just learning to pronounce what was it, N? I remember that I couldn't say el, I always said L. And once the head of the language program knew about that, any time he'd see me, he'd say, say el. And I'd say, L.

[Assistant] So you've learned how to say el?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We'll talk about your many years in Latin America.

[User] But anyway, so the language training was very good. Our technical training, I mean, there were about seven foresters in the group. The rest were mostly all AB generalists who had grown up on farms and they were training for agriculture. And we got the same training the aggies did. I learned how to vaccinate chickens for Newcastle. And I think that's the only thing I think I ever used once I became a volunteer. I did help some of the other volunteers vaccinating chickens. But we learned a lot of other things about animals and plants and stuff.

[Assistant] But no forestry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We'll talk about your many years in Latin America.

[User] But anyway, so the language training was very good. Our technical training, I mean, there were about seven foresters in the group. The rest were mostly all AB generalists who had grown up on farms and they were training for agriculture. And we got the same training the aggies did. I learned how to vaccinate chickens for Newcastle. And I think that's the only thing I think I ever used once I became a volunteer. I did help some of the other volunteers vaccinating chickens. But we learned a lot of other things about animals and plants and stuff.

[Assistant] But no forestry?

[User] But no forestry. There was nobody there that knew anything about forestry in Ecuador, so we didn't have any.

[Assistant] Well, you had a master's degree in forestry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But anyway, so the language training was very good. Our technical training, I mean, there were about seven foresters in the group. The rest were mostly all AB generalists who had grown up on farms and they were training for agriculture. And we got the same training the aggies did. I learned how to vaccinate chickens for Newcastle. And I think that's the only thing I think I ever used once I became a volunteer. I did help some of the other volunteers vaccinating chickens. But we learned a lot of other things about animals and plants and stuff.

[Assistant] But no forestry?

[User] But no forestry. There was nobody there that knew anything about forestry in Ecuador, so we didn't have any.

[Assistant] Well, you had a master's degree in forestry.

[User] Right. Well, there were a couple of us that did. But that's, you know, what we needed to learn was what's going on in Ecuador and the way they made their new.

[Assistant] OK. And did you get cultural orientation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But no forestry. There was nobody there that knew anything about forestry in Ecuador, so we didn't have any.

[Assistant] Well, you had a master's degree in forestry.

[User] Right. Well, there were a couple of us that did. But that's, you know, what we needed to learn was what's going on in Ecuador and the way they made their new.

[Assistant] OK. And did you get cultural orientation?

[User] Oh, we had, yeah. And let's see. Well, we had a lot of ex, well, they were Latin Americans studying in the United States that were there for helping us with the cultural training. And I remember, particularly as one girl from Peru whose parents owned big haciendas and we got talking about land reform and stuff. And she was in tears because we were talking about her family and what horrible people they were, essentially, that they owned all this land and they had all these native people working for them as slaves, essentially.

[Assistant] Yeah, she didn't like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, there were a couple of us that did. But that's, you know, what we needed to learn was what's going on in Ecuador and the way they made their new.

[Assistant] OK. And did you get cultural orientation?

[User] Oh, we had, yeah. And let's see. Well, we had a lot of ex, well, they were Latin Americans studying in the United States that were there for helping us with the cultural training. And I remember, particularly as one girl from Peru whose parents owned big haciendas and we got talking about land reform and stuff. And she was in tears because we were talking about her family and what horrible people they were, essentially, that they owned all this land and they had all these native people working for them as slaves, essentially.

[Assistant] Yeah, she didn't like that.

[User] No, no. And I can understand that. She hadn't looked at her country through those eyes before.

[Assistant] So it was a big cultural shift for her as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we had, yeah. And let's see. Well, we had a lot of ex, well, they were Latin Americans studying in the United States that were there for helping us with the cultural training. And I remember, particularly as one girl from Peru whose parents owned big haciendas and we got talking about land reform and stuff. And she was in tears because we were talking about her family and what horrible people they were, essentially, that they owned all this land and they had all these native people working for them as slaves, essentially.

[Assistant] Yeah, she didn't like that.

[User] No, no. And I can understand that. She hadn't looked at her country through those eyes before.

[Assistant] So it was a big cultural shift for her as well.

[User] Yeah, for her, right.

[Assistant] Maybe more than for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. And I can understand that. She hadn't looked at her country through those eyes before.

[Assistant] So it was a big cultural shift for her as well.

[User] Yeah, for her, right.

[Assistant] Maybe more than for you.

[User] More for her than for us, I think.

[Assistant] Which is interesting. So you were in Montana. Did you, I guess you, did you have any work experience there? Or at that point in '63, there weren't, were there, it was all academic or was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, for her, right.

[Assistant] Maybe more than for you.

[User] More for her than for us, I think.

[Assistant] Which is interesting. So you were in Montana. Did you, I guess you, did you have any work experience there? Or at that point in '63, there weren't, were there, it was all academic or was there?

[User] Well, I had worked the summer for the U.S. Forest Service in Pennsylvania and Maryland and, I guess, New Jersey, doing forest survey.

[Assistant] But part of the training, there was no work experience, no forestry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More for her than for us, I think.

[Assistant] Which is interesting. So you were in Montana. Did you, I guess you, did you have any work experience there? Or at that point in '63, there weren't, were there, it was all academic or was there?

[User] Well, I had worked the summer for the U.S. Forest Service in Pennsylvania and Maryland and, I guess, New Jersey, doing forest survey.

[Assistant] But part of the training, there was no work experience, no forestry.

[User] Oh, no. The closest thing there was, I would say, an experience for foresters was we had weekend camp outs up in the mountains and we were the only. Well, not the only ones, but the foresters always looked forward to the weekend because we got away from Spanish class and we could go out in the woods. Some of the rest of these of the AB generalists were not happy about going out in the woods.

[Assistant] But that was, I guess, the nod towards forestry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had worked the summer for the U.S. Forest Service in Pennsylvania and Maryland and, I guess, New Jersey, doing forest survey.

[Assistant] But part of the training, there was no work experience, no forestry.

[User] Oh, no. The closest thing there was, I would say, an experience for foresters was we had weekend camp outs up in the mountains and we were the only. Well, not the only ones, but the foresters always looked forward to the weekend because we got away from Spanish class and we could go out in the woods. Some of the rest of these of the AB generalists were not happy about going out in the woods.

[Assistant] But that was, I guess, the nod towards forestry.

[User] Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't done for forestry. It was just done for something to do on the weekend that was different from what we did the rest of the week.

[Assistant] OK. So you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. The closest thing there was, I would say, an experience for foresters was we had weekend camp outs up in the mountains and we were the only. Well, not the only ones, but the foresters always looked forward to the weekend because we got away from Spanish class and we could go out in the woods. Some of the rest of these of the AB generalists were not happy about going out in the woods.

[Assistant] But that was, I guess, the nod towards forestry.

[User] Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't done for forestry. It was just done for something to do on the weekend that was different from what we did the rest of the week.

[Assistant] OK. So you.

[User] One thing I forgot to mention on language training was that then we had to speak Spanish at lunchtime. And so we would always get over there, and it was usually our assistant person was standing at the table with us and we would get over there and eat as fast as we could and get up and go. So we didn't have to speak much Spanish. One day for some reason I had to go late. And so by the time I got there, everybody else was gone. I learned, I think, more Spanish in that 15 minutes than I did in any other 15 minutes in the language program. I learned the names for all the seafoods just about. He found out I was from Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay was there. And so I learned, you know, crabs and shrimp and fish and all kinds of things.

[Assistant] Sometimes the informal training is the best, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't done for forestry. It was just done for something to do on the weekend that was different from what we did the rest of the week.

[Assistant] OK. So you.

[User] One thing I forgot to mention on language training was that then we had to speak Spanish at lunchtime. And so we would always get over there, and it was usually our assistant person was standing at the table with us and we would get over there and eat as fast as we could and get up and go. So we didn't have to speak much Spanish. One day for some reason I had to go late. And so by the time I got there, everybody else was gone. I learned, I think, more Spanish in that 15 minutes than I did in any other 15 minutes in the language program. I learned the names for all the seafoods just about. He found out I was from Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay was there. And so I learned, you know, crabs and shrimp and fish and all kinds of things.

[Assistant] Sometimes the informal training is the best, right?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Definitely. So how long was the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One thing I forgot to mention on language training was that then we had to speak Spanish at lunchtime. And so we would always get over there, and it was usually our assistant person was standing at the table with us and we would get over there and eat as fast as we could and get up and go. So we didn't have to speak much Spanish. One day for some reason I had to go late. And so by the time I got there, everybody else was gone. I learned, I think, more Spanish in that 15 minutes than I did in any other 15 minutes in the language program. I learned the names for all the seafoods just about. He found out I was from Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay was there. And so I learned, you know, crabs and shrimp and fish and all kinds of things.

[Assistant] Sometimes the informal training is the best, right?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Definitely. So how long was the training?

[User] Well, see, we had two months in Montana State University and then we were the first volunteers to ever train in Mexico. And we went to Pátzcuaro, Mexico. We had to tell everybody we were students from the Montana State University. We couldn't tell them we were Peace Corps trainees because Mexico didn't want have anything to do Peace Corps in those days, supposedly. But we got there and we would say we were students from Montana State University. And they're like, oh, you're the Peace Corps people. So everybody in the area knew. And I don't know why, but I mean, we were all assigned. Pátzcuaro was a sort of training center for community development people from, not just Mexico, from all over the place in Latin America. And we all had, some of them volunteered to stick around during their time off and help us with our training.

[Assistant] So what happened there, was it language training basically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Definitely. So how long was the training?

[User] Well, see, we had two months in Montana State University and then we were the first volunteers to ever train in Mexico. And we went to Pátzcuaro, Mexico. We had to tell everybody we were students from the Montana State University. We couldn't tell them we were Peace Corps trainees because Mexico didn't want have anything to do Peace Corps in those days, supposedly. But we got there and we would say we were students from Montana State University. And they're like, oh, you're the Peace Corps people. So everybody in the area knew. And I don't know why, but I mean, we were all assigned. Pátzcuaro was a sort of training center for community development people from, not just Mexico, from all over the place in Latin America. And we all had, some of them volunteered to stick around during their time off and help us with our training.

[Assistant] So what happened there, was it language training basically?

[User] No, it was, like it was. Well, it was mostly language, but we also we did spend a week or two in a small village with our volunteer person. And I always remember that we, there were three of us foresters were all sent the same small village, which was in a almost a swamp. And I think the people in the town felt sorry for us because there weren't any trees anywhere. So one day, and the men would usually go off somewhere to work, and they came back that day with a bunch of trees that they had pulled up for us to plant. And we did plant them, not having much hope that they were ever going to survive in that water laden soil. And then so we mixed straw and stuff with the soil thinking that might help the drainage. And then the next, I think it was a couple of days later, we watched them make adobe. It was almost the same thing we had done.

[Assistant] Do you know whether the trees made it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure they didn't. There was no way the trees were going to survive in that I think. The adobe might have made it worse, but it wasn't going to make any difference. They were, you know, they weren't trees for swamps.

[Assistant] So you spent, how long were you in Mexico?

[User] We were there a month.

[Assistant] A month.

[User] And I don't remember now all. I know it was a week or two we were out there in the village. I can't recall what we did the rest of the time.

[Assistant] How did you react to, well, I guess you had been to Taiwan, but how did you react to Mexico? A kid from Baltimore.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were there a month.

[Assistant] A month.

[User] And I don't remember now all. I know it was a week or two we were out there in the village. I can't recall what we did the rest of the time.

[Assistant] How did you react to, well, I guess you had been to Taiwan, but how did you react to Mexico? A kid from Baltimore.

[User] I don't know. I liked it. I liked the food, and I think that's one of the things, before I went, my mother said, you're not going to like it, you know, you're so picky about your food. I said, oh, I love Mexican food. And she says, well, how do you know? I had some in the Philippines. Well, Spanish food I had in the Philippines, but it wasn't Mexican. And Mexican's very different. But anyway, I mean, I really did. I liked the food. I liked the people. I wasn't thinking that much about the poverty at that time, but it was nothing anywhere near as bad as what I saw and what I'd seen in Taiwan.

[Assistant] So that was really, the culture shock was in Taiwan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I don't remember now all. I know it was a week or two we were out there in the village. I can't recall what we did the rest of the time.

[Assistant] How did you react to, well, I guess you had been to Taiwan, but how did you react to Mexico? A kid from Baltimore.

[User] I don't know. I liked it. I liked the food, and I think that's one of the things, before I went, my mother said, you're not going to like it, you know, you're so picky about your food. I said, oh, I love Mexican food. And she says, well, how do you know? I had some in the Philippines. Well, Spanish food I had in the Philippines, but it wasn't Mexican. And Mexican's very different. But anyway, I mean, I really did. I liked the food. I liked the people. I wasn't thinking that much about the poverty at that time, but it was nothing anywhere near as bad as what I saw and what I'd seen in Taiwan.

[Assistant] So that was really, the culture shock was in Taiwan.

[User] Yeah, partly because I wasn't prepared for it. And part of it was, you know, we're running our tanks over people's rice fields.

[Assistant] And other issues like that. That's another whole interview we won't get into.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I liked it. I liked the food, and I think that's one of the things, before I went, my mother said, you're not going to like it, you know, you're so picky about your food. I said, oh, I love Mexican food. And she says, well, how do you know? I had some in the Philippines. Well, Spanish food I had in the Philippines, but it wasn't Mexican. And Mexican's very different. But anyway, I mean, I really did. I liked the food. I liked the people. I wasn't thinking that much about the poverty at that time, but it was nothing anywhere near as bad as what I saw and what I'd seen in Taiwan.

[Assistant] So that was really, the culture shock was in Taiwan.

[User] Yeah, partly because I wasn't prepared for it. And part of it was, you know, we're running our tanks over people's rice fields.

[Assistant] And other issues like that. That's another whole interview we won't get into.

[User] But I was sort of surprised the Marine Corps didn't seem to. Well, the government had said, you know, come in and do what you need to do. So we did. They gave us the southern end of the island, which is where the real Formosans lived. Not the mainland Chinese.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. OK. So after Mexico, did you then go home or did you go directly to Ecuador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, partly because I wasn't prepared for it. And part of it was, you know, we're running our tanks over people's rice fields.

[Assistant] And other issues like that. That's another whole interview we won't get into.

[User] But I was sort of surprised the Marine Corps didn't seem to. Well, the government had said, you know, come in and do what you need to do. So we did. They gave us the southern end of the island, which is where the real Formosans lived. Not the mainland Chinese.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. OK. So after Mexico, did you then go home or did you go directly to Ecuador?

[User] No, we flew into Dallas. In fact, the one thing I forgot, well.

[Assistant] No, no, go ahead. We can go back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I was sort of surprised the Marine Corps didn't seem to. Well, the government had said, you know, come in and do what you need to do. So we did. They gave us the southern end of the island, which is where the real Formosans lived. Not the mainland Chinese.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. OK. So after Mexico, did you then go home or did you go directly to Ecuador?

[User] No, we flew into Dallas. In fact, the one thing I forgot, well.

[Assistant] No, no, go ahead. We can go back.

[User] Well, we flew into Dallas, where there were three lines, well, there were people there waiting with papers for us or something to tell us whether we had been selected in or out or were in between. So there were three people, three people there. But I was also, I had written to my uncle who lived in Dallas. And so he and my aunt were both there to meet me at the airport and I was going to spend the night there with them. And so I was busy greeting them and didn't pay much attention to where all where everybody was going. And when that was all done, I went over to find somebody, which I thought was the line that had to accept the people who were accepted. And they said, well, no, we don't have anything for you.

[Assistant] So that was the deselected group, the people who are not selected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we flew into Dallas. In fact, the one thing I forgot, well.

[Assistant] No, no, go ahead. We can go back.

[User] Well, we flew into Dallas, where there were three lines, well, there were people there waiting with papers for us or something to tell us whether we had been selected in or out or were in between. So there were three people, three people there. But I was also, I had written to my uncle who lived in Dallas. And so he and my aunt were both there to meet me at the airport and I was going to spend the night there with them. And so I was busy greeting them and didn't pay much attention to where all where everybody was going. And when that was all done, I went over to find somebody, which I thought was the line that had to accept the people who were accepted. And they said, well, no, we don't have anything for you.

[Assistant] So that was the deselected group, the people who are not selected?

[User] Right. Well, I mean, in the end, I had gone to the right group, or right line, but I had. So they sent me to the other ones in and I wasn't in any of them.

[Assistant] Oh, so they just had forgotten your name completely?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we flew into Dallas, where there were three lines, well, there were people there waiting with papers for us or something to tell us whether we had been selected in or out or were in between. So there were three people, three people there. But I was also, I had written to my uncle who lived in Dallas. And so he and my aunt were both there to meet me at the airport and I was going to spend the night there with them. And so I was busy greeting them and didn't pay much attention to where all where everybody was going. And when that was all done, I went over to find somebody, which I thought was the line that had to accept the people who were accepted. And they said, well, no, we don't have anything for you.

[Assistant] So that was the deselected group, the people who are not selected?

[User] Right. Well, I mean, in the end, I had gone to the right group, or right line, but I had. So they sent me to the other ones in and I wasn't in any of them.

[Assistant] Oh, so they just had forgotten your name completely?

[User] Well, I don't know what had happened. But one thing I wanted to mention there was also was during training, there were two times when we had these selection days, which I don't think they ever did much of that afterwards, but they would have a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists up there and training. They would go on the weekend hikes with us and they were some more people you tried to shy away from. You didn't want to let them get to know you. And then there was the day that was selection and it was the head of the training program, Dr. Dunbar, who had to run around and give everybody their slips of paper. And so again, we were watching for him and you'd cross the street to stay away from him. But they always caught up with you. And people were, during training, I mean, during the training program at those two times before the end, given slips and they were gone by the next day.

[Assistant] There were many people deselected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, I mean, in the end, I had gone to the right group, or right line, but I had. So they sent me to the other ones in and I wasn't in any of them.

[Assistant] Oh, so they just had forgotten your name completely?

[User] Well, I don't know what had happened. But one thing I wanted to mention there was also was during training, there were two times when we had these selection days, which I don't think they ever did much of that afterwards, but they would have a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists up there and training. They would go on the weekend hikes with us and they were some more people you tried to shy away from. You didn't want to let them get to know you. And then there was the day that was selection and it was the head of the training program, Dr. Dunbar, who had to run around and give everybody their slips of paper. And so again, we were watching for him and you'd cross the street to stay away from him. But they always caught up with you. And people were, during training, I mean, during the training program at those two times before the end, given slips and they were gone by the next day.

[Assistant] There were many people deselected?

[User] About a third of the group.

[Assistant] Wow. Do you have any idea why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know what had happened. But one thing I wanted to mention there was also was during training, there were two times when we had these selection days, which I don't think they ever did much of that afterwards, but they would have a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists up there and training. They would go on the weekend hikes with us and they were some more people you tried to shy away from. You didn't want to let them get to know you. And then there was the day that was selection and it was the head of the training program, Dr. Dunbar, who had to run around and give everybody their slips of paper. And so again, we were watching for him and you'd cross the street to stay away from him. But they always caught up with you. And people were, during training, I mean, during the training program at those two times before the end, given slips and they were gone by the next day.

[Assistant] There were many people deselected?

[User] About a third of the group.

[Assistant] Wow. Do you have any idea why?

[User] Um, well, most of them I didn't know why. There was one guy from Georgia, and we had, I think, one black guy in the group from Oklahoma. And a guy from Georgia was just always after him. And for most of us, the guy that we really loved, we really loved this guy from Oklahoma. We would go, when we were in Mexico, we went out beer drinking with him and so forth. But anyway, that guy from Georgia, I wasn't surprised when he was taken out. He just, you know, he'd grown up in the wrong culture. But others I can remember, OK, at the end, there was a girl that I guess they, well, they asked her. Do you think you would like, you're going to like living in Ecuador for two years? And they were going to let her go, I think, if she said yes, but in the end, she said no.

[Assistant] So she basically selected herself out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About a third of the group.

[Assistant] Wow. Do you have any idea why?

[User] Um, well, most of them I didn't know why. There was one guy from Georgia, and we had, I think, one black guy in the group from Oklahoma. And a guy from Georgia was just always after him. And for most of us, the guy that we really loved, we really loved this guy from Oklahoma. We would go, when we were in Mexico, we went out beer drinking with him and so forth. But anyway, that guy from Georgia, I wasn't surprised when he was taken out. He just, you know, he'd grown up in the wrong culture. But others I can remember, OK, at the end, there was a girl that I guess they, well, they asked her. Do you think you would like, you're going to like living in Ecuador for two years? And they were going to let her go, I think, if she said yes, but in the end, she said no.

[Assistant] So she basically selected herself out.

[User] Yeah. Now I'd met her. She was the first one on our training group that I met. I met her on the airplane on the way out there.

[Assistant] Maybe she ended up somewhere else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Now I'd met her. She was the first one on our training group that I met. I met her on the airplane on the way out there.

[Assistant] Maybe she ended up somewhere else.

[User] I don't think she ever got Peace Corps, but she did write to a lot of us.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So she was interested in how we were doing and things, but I guess she decided that she just didn't want to do that.

[Assistant] To do that. All right. So you got selected and you were in Dallas and then you just headed off to Ecuador or what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think she ever got Peace Corps, but she did write to a lot of us.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So she was interested in how we were doing and things, but I guess she decided that she just didn't want to do that.

[Assistant] To do that. All right. So you got selected and you were in Dallas and then you just headed off to Ecuador or what happened?

[User] No, no. Then we went home for, oh, I think it was one week or two weeks. And then all met at Kennedy Airport in New York and got on our Pan Am flight to Quito.

[Assistant] OK. And do you remember how many were in your group by that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So she was interested in how we were doing and things, but I guess she decided that she just didn't want to do that.

[Assistant] To do that. All right. So you got selected and you were in Dallas and then you just headed off to Ecuador or what happened?

[User] No, no. Then we went home for, oh, I think it was one week or two weeks. And then all met at Kennedy Airport in New York and got on our Pan Am flight to Quito.

[Assistant] OK. And do you remember how many were in your group by that time?

[User] I think about 30 of us. But I don't remember for sure.

[Assistant] OK, so then you get to, you don't have to tell me about the flight, you get to Quito.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. Then we went home for, oh, I think it was one week or two weeks. And then all met at Kennedy Airport in New York and got on our Pan Am flight to Quito.

[Assistant] OK. And do you remember how many were in your group by that time?

[User] I think about 30 of us. But I don't remember for sure.

[Assistant] OK, so then you get to, you don't have to tell me about the flight, you get to Quito.

[User] Well, there was one interesting thing about the flight. One of the stewardesses said she played chess and so one of the guys wanted to play chess with her. Well, it turned out to her rules for chess were no rules that any of us had ever seen before.

[Assistant] But they had a good time anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think about 30 of us. But I don't remember for sure.

[Assistant] OK, so then you get to, you don't have to tell me about the flight, you get to Quito.

[User] Well, there was one interesting thing about the flight. One of the stewardesses said she played chess and so one of the guys wanted to play chess with her. Well, it turned out to her rules for chess were no rules that any of us had ever seen before.

[Assistant] But they had a good time anyway.

[User] Oh yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to got to Quito and then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was one interesting thing about the flight. One of the stewardesses said she played chess and so one of the guys wanted to play chess with her. Well, it turned out to her rules for chess were no rules that any of us had ever seen before.

[Assistant] But they had a good time anyway.

[User] Oh yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to got to Quito and then what happened?

[User] Well, we got to Quito, and I think they kept us in Quito for a couple of days, and the foresters all met with people from the Forest Service and some of them from FAO. There were two Spaniards, Spanish foresters, who didn't speak Spanish anywhere near like what we had learned. They all had these. They pronounce some letters differently than what we had learned.

[Assistant] They were Ecuadorian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to got to Quito and then what happened?

[User] Well, we got to Quito, and I think they kept us in Quito for a couple of days, and the foresters all met with people from the Forest Service and some of them from FAO. There were two Spaniards, Spanish foresters, who didn't speak Spanish anywhere near like what we had learned. They all had these. They pronounce some letters differently than what we had learned.

[Assistant] They were Ecuadorian?

[User] No, these were Spaniards.

[Assistant] Oh, Spaniards. So you met with the FAO and who else did you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we got to Quito, and I think they kept us in Quito for a couple of days, and the foresters all met with people from the Forest Service and some of them from FAO. There were two Spaniards, Spanish foresters, who didn't speak Spanish anywhere near like what we had learned. They all had these. They pronounce some letters differently than what we had learned.

[Assistant] They were Ecuadorian?

[User] No, these were Spaniards.

[Assistant] Oh, Spaniards. So you met with the FAO and who else did you say?

[User] And the Ecuadorian Forest Service. And we met with people from the Ministry of Agriculture because that's what most of us were going to be doing. We, of course, met a lot of Peace Corps staff and we met with the people from Heifer Project who were in charge of our, were in charge of the unit that had a contract with Peace Corps to run the agriculture program.

[Assistant] So what did you? Were you involved in the Heifer Project then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, these were Spaniards.

[Assistant] Oh, Spaniards. So you met with the FAO and who else did you say?

[User] And the Ecuadorian Forest Service. And we met with people from the Ministry of Agriculture because that's what most of us were going to be doing. We, of course, met a lot of Peace Corps staff and we met with the people from Heifer Project who were in charge of our, were in charge of the unit that had a contract with Peace Corps to run the agriculture program.

[Assistant] So what did you? Were you involved in the Heifer Project then?

[User] Well, not in a lot. I mean, they were giving away animals and I wasn't involved in giving away animals. But they did get us some tree seeds that we wanted to use for trying some species that, you know, weren't being grown in Ecuador and probably shouldn't have been either. But they got us, they did get. They looking for things they could do to help support us I think. So then they did find a bunch of us were looking for some trees seeds so they got us that.

[Assistant] So the forestry people were still overseen by Heifer, although Heifer had nothing to do with forestry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the Ecuadorian Forest Service. And we met with people from the Ministry of Agriculture because that's what most of us were going to be doing. We, of course, met a lot of Peace Corps staff and we met with the people from Heifer Project who were in charge of our, were in charge of the unit that had a contract with Peace Corps to run the agriculture program.

[Assistant] So what did you? Were you involved in the Heifer Project then?

[User] Well, not in a lot. I mean, they were giving away animals and I wasn't involved in giving away animals. But they did get us some tree seeds that we wanted to use for trying some species that, you know, weren't being grown in Ecuador and probably shouldn't have been either. But they got us, they did get. They looking for things they could do to help support us I think. So then they did find a bunch of us were looking for some trees seeds so they got us that.

[Assistant] So the forestry people were still overseen by Heifer, although Heifer had nothing to do with forestry.

[User] Yeah, well, except they did have one forester on the staff. But they also had the staff divided up into different regions. So the guy doing my region was not the forester. I would meet with him occasionally, but I'm glad I had the guy I did have, though, in my region. He was a really good. I mean, he was Ecuadorian, but he was just very supportive and he knew people everywhere and he could help make you. He could help you make connections.

[Assistant] And where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it wasn't all that good, but it was good enough so they knew they had a letter from a volunteer.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] And years later, when I went back, there were cooperatives formed in both of those towns. Now, I don't know whether I had anything to do with it or not because it was.

[Assistant] Did the Forest Service follow up?

[User] Well, not that I knew of, but you know, they could have, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have known about it because I wasn't really assigned to them at the time. Sometime, I guess, I'd been in my first site, which was Ibarra, for about six months, and I decided I really needed to be where the Forest Service was. And they did have an office in Ibarra, but their nursery was in Otavalo, which is a famous Indian town, has probably the best, well, one of the most famous Indian markets in Latin America. But they also, a reason I went there or finally went there, was because they did have the nursery over there. So I went over there to work in the nursery and I could work, and then I could work with the workers working in the nursery and do a variety of things. And you know, and work with a counterpart.

[Assistant] So you asked Peace Corps to be transferred. Is that how it worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And years later, when I went back, there were cooperatives formed in both of those towns. Now, I don't know whether I had anything to do with it or not because it was.

[Assistant] Did the Forest Service follow up?

[User] Well, not that I knew of, but you know, they could have, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have known about it because I wasn't really assigned to them at the time. Sometime, I guess, I'd been in my first site, which was Ibarra, for about six months, and I decided I really needed to be where the Forest Service was. And they did have an office in Ibarra, but their nursery was in Otavalo, which is a famous Indian town, has probably the best, well, one of the most famous Indian markets in Latin America. But they also, a reason I went there or finally went there, was because they did have the nursery over there. So I went over there to work in the nursery and I could work, and then I could work with the workers working in the nursery and do a variety of things. And you know, and work with a counterpart.

[Assistant] So you asked Peace Corps to be transferred. Is that how it worked?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you were transferred to this other town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, not that I knew of, but you know, they could have, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have known about it because I wasn't really assigned to them at the time. Sometime, I guess, I'd been in my first site, which was Ibarra, for about six months, and I decided I really needed to be where the Forest Service was. And they did have an office in Ibarra, but their nursery was in Otavalo, which is a famous Indian town, has probably the best, well, one of the most famous Indian markets in Latin America. But they also, a reason I went there or finally went there, was because they did have the nursery over there. So I went over there to work in the nursery and I could work, and then I could work with the workers working in the nursery and do a variety of things. And you know, and work with a counterpart.

[Assistant] So you asked Peace Corps to be transferred. Is that how it worked?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you were transferred to this other town?

[User] Yeah, which was, I don't know, half an hour away.

[Assistant] Oh, so not that far.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you were transferred to this other town?

[User] Yeah, which was, I don't know, half an hour away.

[Assistant] Oh, so not that far.

[User] It wasn't very far, no. But then, well even initially I guess I'd been told that I was assigned to two provinces, Imbarbura and Carchi, which were the two northernmost provinces in Ecuador. They went all the way up to the border with Colombia. So I was traveling a lot between, well, throughout both of them by bus. And living, I mean, that was the closest I think I ever came to living in the way you hear about. I lived comfortably in when I was in my base. But when I was traveling around, sometimes you got to places where there really wasn't a place to stay and often you were in a room with no windows or anything. Maybe some hay to sleep on even.

[Assistant] Well, how did you find these places to stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, which was, I don't know, half an hour away.

[Assistant] Oh, so not that far.

[User] It wasn't very far, no. But then, well even initially I guess I'd been told that I was assigned to two provinces, Imbarbura and Carchi, which were the two northernmost provinces in Ecuador. They went all the way up to the border with Colombia. So I was traveling a lot between, well, throughout both of them by bus. And living, I mean, that was the closest I think I ever came to living in the way you hear about. I lived comfortably in when I was in my base. But when I was traveling around, sometimes you got to places where there really wasn't a place to stay and often you were in a room with no windows or anything. Maybe some hay to sleep on even.

[Assistant] Well, how did you find these places to stay?

[User] I guess, and I think in all cases, I was, my initial contact in all these towns was the priest. I'm not a Catholic but that was inside. I'd go tell a priest I wanted to do this and could you, you know, get people together to do it? And where can I stay? And they always helped me find something.

[Assistant] What were your living arrangements when you were in your post?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn't very far, no. But then, well even initially I guess I'd been told that I was assigned to two provinces, Imbarbura and Carchi, which were the two northernmost provinces in Ecuador. They went all the way up to the border with Colombia. So I was traveling a lot between, well, throughout both of them by bus. And living, I mean, that was the closest I think I ever came to living in the way you hear about. I lived comfortably in when I was in my base. But when I was traveling around, sometimes you got to places where there really wasn't a place to stay and often you were in a room with no windows or anything. Maybe some hay to sleep on even.

[Assistant] Well, how did you find these places to stay?

[User] I guess, and I think in all cases, I was, my initial contact in all these towns was the priest. I'm not a Catholic but that was inside. I'd go tell a priest I wanted to do this and could you, you know, get people together to do it? And where can I stay? And they always helped me find something.

[Assistant] What were your living arrangements when you were in your post?

[User] Well, when I was in Ibarra, I was in this, I think it was a two- room sort of apartment up above the office.

[Assistant] Oh, above the office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess, and I think in all cases, I was, my initial contact in all these towns was the priest. I'm not a Catholic but that was inside. I'd go tell a priest I wanted to do this and could you, you know, get people together to do it? And where can I stay? And they always helped me find something.

[Assistant] What were your living arrangements when you were in your post?

[User] Well, when I was in Ibarra, I was in this, I think it was a two- room sort of apartment up above the office.

[Assistant] Oh, above the office.

[User] And then when I moved to Otavalo, I got a volunteer who was already there to help me find the house. But it wasn't a house, I mean, it was the upstairs. They had an upstairs, I guess, two rooms that they weren't using. And it was actually a storefront place and a couple of, it was an older woman and her two daughters. And then they also had a couple of indigenous people that worked for them. They'd all live downstairs. And but I had the upstairs and I had a balcony that looked down over the patio where they were.

[Assistant] Sounds nice. Were you always living alone or were you with another volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then when I moved to Otavalo, I got a volunteer who was already there to help me find the house. But it wasn't a house, I mean, it was the upstairs. They had an upstairs, I guess, two rooms that they weren't using. And it was actually a storefront place and a couple of, it was an older woman and her two daughters. And then they also had a couple of indigenous people that worked for them. They'd all live downstairs. And but I had the upstairs and I had a balcony that looked down over the patio where they were.

[Assistant] Sounds nice. Were you always living alone or were you with another volunteer?

[User] No, I, yeah, I think I was always living alone.

[Assistant] OK, good.

[User] Later on moved to Quito for my third year, but even then I lived alone.

[Assistant] OK, so you spent six months in the first place and then you moved and you worked in the nursery in Otavalo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I, yeah, I think I was always living alone.

[Assistant] OK, good.

[User] Later on moved to Quito for my third year, but even then I lived alone.

[Assistant] OK, so you spent six months in the first place and then you moved and you worked in the nursery in Otavalo.

[User] Otavalo.

[Assistant] And what did you do in the nursery? Was that a successful project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Later on moved to Quito for my third year, but even then I lived alone.

[Assistant] OK, so you spent six months in the first place and then you moved and you worked in the nursery in Otavalo.

[User] Otavalo.

[Assistant] And what did you do in the nursery? Was that a successful project?

[User]
Well, I mean, that's where I was planting the seeds that I had that we had gotten from Heifer Project. So we could. And I had written around to different places to some experts on species trials and found out about experimental designs that we could plant the trees out and get some results from it. So I had that and I was working with my counterpart to try to find places to plant them. And then I was also just helping the nursery workers with taking care of the trees. I thought that was interesting. I've had a lot of different kinds of pines. They had one pine species that they were, that they've been growing for years in Ecuador, from some time back in the 30s. But at some time or another, these.

Oh, that's right, there were some Australian foresters there with FAO also. They came up and looked at what we were doing, and some of my pine trees weren't doing too well. And pine trees usually need a fungus growing on their roots, and it's a special specific fungus. So anyway, these Australians came and said we need a lorry load of litter up here. Next thing I knew they had a truckload of pine straw and stuff that they brought up from one of the pine forest down near Quito, and they didn't put it on their pine trees. They put it on mine, and that made me feel like, OK, somebody thinks that this is something special. Because, you know, they've got thousands of these other pine trees that aren't doing all that well, either, because they don't have the mycorrhiza that they need.

[Assistant] But you got that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they put the stuff, spread it around on my seed beds. And then the other thing I would do working out of that nursery, the forester for the region was, he'd line up places to plant trees. And I would go up with them when we went up to plant trees up in the, I mean, it's usually somewhere much higher. We were already at, what, 6000 feet at least, and we'd go up another couple thousand to plant the trees. And we'd usually leave, I remember, about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning. Ecuadorians don't, for breakfast they eat, they have a café con leche and a piece of bread usually. So that's what I had. When I was eating on my own, I fixed up something more. But when I was getting up to go with these guys, I had breakfast with them and. But I also learned, one of my favorite foods was an Ecuadorian chocolate bar with maní in it, or peanuts, like a Mr. Goodbar. But it was called a Manicho. And I stuffed my pockets with Manichos when I went up in the mountains to plant trees so I have something to eat the rest of the day.

[Assistant] Very nourishing food, chocolate. Well, the peanuts were good for you.

[User] The peanuts too. And now, well, any time my wife goes back to Ecuador, she brings me back a box of Manichos.

[Assistant] So you like these.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Why was there a need for all of this tree planting? Had there been deforestation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The peanuts too. And now, well, any time my wife goes back to Ecuador, she brings me back a box of Manichos.

[Assistant] So you like these.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Why was there a need for all of this tree planting? Had there been deforestation?

[User] Yeah, well, the country is essentially up all the mountains anyway, the higher altitudes where the Incas had lived. I don't know why they, you know, they cleared it, probably for firewood, which is the main reason that a lot of that. And for, I think, probably built something out of trees.

[Assistant] So there a lot of trees had been cut.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Why was there a need for all of this tree planting? Had there been deforestation?

[User] Yeah, well, the country is essentially up all the mountains anyway, the higher altitudes where the Incas had lived. I don't know why they, you know, they cleared it, probably for firewood, which is the main reason that a lot of that. And for, I think, probably built something out of trees.

[Assistant] So there a lot of trees had been cut.

[User] There weren't very many trees left. There were some little spots where you could find some examples of the native species, but mostly there were. And some of the area when they were planting these trees really were not suited for planting trees, except that eucalyptus. They were planning basically two species, eucalyptus and pine, this Monterey pine. The Monterey pine was good for getting up at high altitudes in areas that were wet, but they planted eucalyptus almost anywhere. And they were planted in some very dry arid sites and they grew.

[Assistant] So you did this for two years? For a year and a half, you continued working out of this nursery?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, the country is essentially up all the mountains anyway, the higher altitudes where the Incas had lived. I don't know why they, you know, they cleared it, probably for firewood, which is the main reason that a lot of that. And for, I think, probably built something out of trees.

[Assistant] So there a lot of trees had been cut.

[User] There weren't very many trees left. There were some little spots where you could find some examples of the native species, but mostly there were. And some of the area when they were planting these trees really were not suited for planting trees, except that eucalyptus. They were planning basically two species, eucalyptus and pine, this Monterey pine. The Monterey pine was good for getting up at high altitudes in areas that were wet, but they planted eucalyptus almost anywhere. And they were planted in some very dry arid sites and they grew.

[Assistant] So you did this for two years? For a year and a half, you continued working out of this nursery?

[User] Well, essentially out of the nursery, but you know, I'm.

[Assistant] In lots of different places.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There weren't very many trees left. There were some little spots where you could find some examples of the native species, but mostly there were. And some of the area when they were planting these trees really were not suited for planting trees, except that eucalyptus. They were planning basically two species, eucalyptus and pine, this Monterey pine. The Monterey pine was good for getting up at high altitudes in areas that were wet, but they planted eucalyptus almost anywhere. And they were planted in some very dry arid sites and they grew.

[Assistant] So you did this for two years? For a year and a half, you continued working out of this nursery?

[User] Well, essentially out of the nursery, but you know, I'm.

[Assistant] In lots of different places.

[User] Yeah, and traveling around trying to organize these co-ops.

[Assistant] So did you become friends with the Ecuadorian foresters with whom you were working?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, essentially out of the nursery, but you know, I'm.

[Assistant] In lots of different places.

[User] Yeah, and traveling around trying to organize these co-ops.

[Assistant] So did you become friends with the Ecuadorian foresters with whom you were working?

[User] Well, it was two, there were two essentially. And I can't remember. Anyway, the second one was I got along with better, I think, than the first one. And I always remember. But he moved his office from Otavalo to Ibarra, but the nursing was still in Otavalo. So I ended up staying there, although I'll never forget, I went over to interview with him shortly after he arrived. And it was Carnival time. In Ecuador for Carnival, they fill water balloons and they'll ride around in towns with pickup trucks full of water balloons.

[Assistant] And throw them at each other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and traveling around trying to organize these co-ops.

[Assistant] So did you become friends with the Ecuadorian foresters with whom you were working?

[User] Well, it was two, there were two essentially. And I can't remember. Anyway, the second one was I got along with better, I think, than the first one. And I always remember. But he moved his office from Otavalo to Ibarra, but the nursing was still in Otavalo. So I ended up staying there, although I'll never forget, I went over to interview with him shortly after he arrived. And it was Carnival time. In Ecuador for Carnival, they fill water balloons and they'll ride around in towns with pickup trucks full of water balloons.

[Assistant] And throw them at each other?

[User] No, at any unsuspecting person who walked by. And I was dressed up in my suit to go meet my new counterpart and trying to avoid these trucks full of water balloons. I did. I made it. But that actually, some people have been blinded by having those things thrown at busses and breaking the windows and things. And it goes on for not just the week of Carnival, you know, it'll start about the beginning of January and goes on for a couple of months. It does stop on Ash Wednesday, but.

[Assistant] I guess there aren't many other things to do up there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was two, there were two essentially. And I can't remember. Anyway, the second one was I got along with better, I think, than the first one. And I always remember. But he moved his office from Otavalo to Ibarra, but the nursing was still in Otavalo. So I ended up staying there, although I'll never forget, I went over to interview with him shortly after he arrived. And it was Carnival time. In Ecuador for Carnival, they fill water balloons and they'll ride around in towns with pickup trucks full of water balloons.

[Assistant] And throw them at each other?

[User] No, at any unsuspecting person who walked by. And I was dressed up in my suit to go meet my new counterpart and trying to avoid these trucks full of water balloons. I did. I made it. But that actually, some people have been blinded by having those things thrown at busses and breaking the windows and things. And it goes on for not just the week of Carnival, you know, it'll start about the beginning of January and goes on for a couple of months. It does stop on Ash Wednesday, but.

[Assistant] I guess there aren't many other things to do up there.

[User] Well, there weren't then. Quito at least has now gotten much livelier. Quito when we first got there, I mean by 8:00 at night, there was nobody on the streets except when the movie let out. Then there'd be suddenly this crowd of people getting busses and cabs or whatever to go home.

[Assistant] So this in the sixties, was there electricity, indoor plumbing, all of that, in the places you lived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, at any unsuspecting person who walked by. And I was dressed up in my suit to go meet my new counterpart and trying to avoid these trucks full of water balloons. I did. I made it. But that actually, some people have been blinded by having those things thrown at busses and breaking the windows and things. And it goes on for not just the week of Carnival, you know, it'll start about the beginning of January and goes on for a couple of months. It does stop on Ash Wednesday, but.

[Assistant] I guess there aren't many other things to do up there.

[User] Well, there weren't then. Quito at least has now gotten much livelier. Quito when we first got there, I mean by 8:00 at night, there was nobody on the streets except when the movie let out. Then there'd be suddenly this crowd of people getting busses and cabs or whatever to go home.

[Assistant] So this in the sixties, was there electricity, indoor plumbing, all of that, in the places you lived?

[User] There was electricity, I think, everywhere I was. Now some of the little towns I went to, they had electricity that was with a local generator. And so it didn't, it wasn't going all the time. And we did have, in an apartment that I had, there was a big sort of washing tub down in the patio that had water, and that's where I got my water from that I would boil up upstairs. But so I mean, there was water, but to get a shower you went once a week usually over to this place that had hot water because they heated it up with charcoal or firewood or whatever and then ran water.

[Assistant] So it's kind of a bathhouse.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there weren't then. Quito at least has now gotten much livelier. Quito when we first got there, I mean by 8:00 at night, there was nobody on the streets except when the movie let out. Then there'd be suddenly this crowd of people getting busses and cabs or whatever to go home.

[Assistant] So this in the sixties, was there electricity, indoor plumbing, all of that, in the places you lived?

[User] There was electricity, I think, everywhere I was. Now some of the little towns I went to, they had electricity that was with a local generator. And so it didn't, it wasn't going all the time. And we did have, in an apartment that I had, there was a big sort of washing tub down in the patio that had water, and that's where I got my water from that I would boil up upstairs. But so I mean, there was water, but to get a shower you went once a week usually over to this place that had hot water because they heated it up with charcoal or firewood or whatever and then ran water.

[Assistant] So it's kind of a bathhouse.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have other friends or were you basically on your own? Lots of people talk about loneliness. Doesn't sound like you were lonely at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was electricity, I think, everywhere I was. Now some of the little towns I went to, they had electricity that was with a local generator. And so it didn't, it wasn't going all the time. And we did have, in an apartment that I had, there was a big sort of washing tub down in the patio that had water, and that's where I got my water from that I would boil up upstairs. But so I mean, there was water, but to get a shower you went once a week usually over to this place that had hot water because they heated it up with charcoal or firewood or whatever and then ran water.

[Assistant] So it's kind of a bathhouse.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have other friends or were you basically on your own? Lots of people talk about loneliness. Doesn't sound like you were lonely at all.

[User] No. Well, partly because I don't think I get lonely that easy, but I did have. There was another volunteer from my group. He was one of the aggies in Otavalo, so he helped me find my place to stay and we would usually have lunch together. Well, I shouldn't say usually, well, often had lunch together. And dinner, I think, because we ate at this hotel where you could buy a meal plan and we had good meals.

[Assistant] So you had somebody in town that was a peer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have other friends or were you basically on your own? Lots of people talk about loneliness. Doesn't sound like you were lonely at all.

[User] No. Well, partly because I don't think I get lonely that easy, but I did have. There was another volunteer from my group. He was one of the aggies in Otavalo, so he helped me find my place to stay and we would usually have lunch together. Well, I shouldn't say usually, well, often had lunch together. And dinner, I think, because we ate at this hotel where you could buy a meal plan and we had good meals.

[Assistant] So you had somebody in town that was a peer.

[User] Yeah, somebody in town. And then later on, there was a woman volunteer who came and lived in the same house I was living and she lived downstairs in another room. I didn't have all that much to do with her, but she was somebody else I could speak English with. And being in Otavalo, at least on Saturdays, there was always somebody around who spoke English because people would come, tourists would come up to the fair, to the, uh.

[Assistant] So how big a town is this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, partly because I don't think I get lonely that easy, but I did have. There was another volunteer from my group. He was one of the aggies in Otavalo, so he helped me find my place to stay and we would usually have lunch together. Well, I shouldn't say usually, well, often had lunch together. And dinner, I think, because we ate at this hotel where you could buy a meal plan and we had good meals.

[Assistant] So you had somebody in town that was a peer.

[User] Yeah, somebody in town. And then later on, there was a woman volunteer who came and lived in the same house I was living and she lived downstairs in another room. I didn't have all that much to do with her, but she was somebody else I could speak English with. And being in Otavalo, at least on Saturdays, there was always somebody around who spoke English because people would come, tourists would come up to the fair, to the, uh.

[Assistant] So how big a town is this?

[User] Twenty thousand people. Yeah, it was a pretty big town.

[Assistant] That's a pretty big place. And there was a fair there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, somebody in town. And then later on, there was a woman volunteer who came and lived in the same house I was living and she lived downstairs in another room. I didn't have all that much to do with her, but she was somebody else I could speak English with. And being in Otavalo, at least on Saturdays, there was always somebody around who spoke English because people would come, tourists would come up to the fair, to the, uh.

[Assistant] So how big a town is this?

[User] Twenty thousand people. Yeah, it was a pretty big town.

[Assistant] That's a pretty big place. And there was a fair there?

[User] A fair that sold, well, mostly woven goods. And that's what the Otavalans were famous for was for weaving ponchos and array of other kinds of things. In fact, one of the volunteers introduced a tapestry that was some other group of volunteers down south was making. And they showed Otavalans these things. Oh, we can make them and we can make them better. And sure enough, within a month, they were making them and making them better.

[Assistant] And the women did that. Did men also do weaving or it's mostly women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty thousand people. Yeah, it was a pretty big town.

[Assistant] That's a pretty big place. And there was a fair there?

[User] A fair that sold, well, mostly woven goods. And that's what the Otavalans were famous for was for weaving ponchos and array of other kinds of things. In fact, one of the volunteers introduced a tapestry that was some other group of volunteers down south was making. And they showed Otavalans these things. Oh, we can make them and we can make them better. And sure enough, within a month, they were making them and making them better.

[Assistant] And the women did that. Did men also do weaving or it's mostly women?

[User] You know, I don't think I ever saw. I think it probably was mostly women, but I'm not, I'm not absolutely sure because I didn't usually visit them when they were weaving.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. OK, so you spent a year and a half doing this work, traveling around. Did you travel to other regions as well on vacation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The U.S. I think they all were. I don't think they have to be. But all of them there in Ecuador were. I know there was another base like that in Peru, but anyway, so there were. Now I've sort of lost track of where I was.

[Assistant] Well, you were going down the river.

[User] And we eventually got to. Oh, that was kind of interesting too, because when we finally, well, we got to where we were, well, close to where we were going. We got to this little town called Pompeya, which must have been 200 people. And there were, but there was a Catholic missionary there or Catholic priest. And we asked him how to get to Limoncocha. Well to get there, you still had to cross a little branch of the river. So he got some people there and took us through the swamp. And then they had some little dugout canoes, and they took us across a sort of branch of the river. And then we had to walk for about a mile and a half up what looked like a road almost, because the Wycliffe Bible translator people had had cleared it so that they could take their wagon down there to get supplies that came down the river. So once we got there, it was easy enough to, you just kept on that road and you finally got to the runway, which was the biggest part of the village there or their settlement was a runway where they had a DC-3 that was specially outfitted so it could fly over the Andes, where most DC-3s couldn't fly.

[Assistant] Was it just too high for a DC-3?

[User] Yeah, but they had.

[Assistant] So you got way into the backwater.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we eventually got to. Oh, that was kind of interesting too, because when we finally, well, we got to where we were, well, close to where we were going. We got to this little town called Pompeya, which must have been 200 people. And there were, but there was a Catholic missionary there or Catholic priest. And we asked him how to get to Limoncocha. Well to get there, you still had to cross a little branch of the river. So he got some people there and took us through the swamp. And then they had some little dugout canoes, and they took us across a sort of branch of the river. And then we had to walk for about a mile and a half up what looked like a road almost, because the Wycliffe Bible translator people had had cleared it so that they could take their wagon down there to get supplies that came down the river. So once we got there, it was easy enough to, you just kept on that road and you finally got to the runway, which was the biggest part of the village there or their settlement was a runway where they had a DC-3 that was specially outfitted so it could fly over the Andes, where most DC-3s couldn't fly.

[Assistant] Was it just too high for a DC-3?

[User] Yeah, but they had.

[Assistant] So you got way into the backwater.

[User] Oh yeah, that was, in those days it was way in the backwater. Now the oil companies have built roads and stuff all through that area.

[Assistant] And the indigenous people, do they now have money and have they gotten education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but they had.

[Assistant] So you got way into the backwater.

[User] Oh yeah, that was, in those days it was way in the backwater. Now the oil companies have built roads and stuff all through that area.

[Assistant] And the indigenous people, do they now have money and have they gotten education?

[User] Well. You know, I.

[Assistant] Maybe or maybe not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, that was, in those days it was way in the backwater. Now the oil companies have built roads and stuff all through that area.

[Assistant] And the indigenous people, do they now have money and have they gotten education?

[User] Well. You know, I.

[Assistant] Maybe or maybe not.

[User] Yeah, well, I mean, well, they've certainly gotten more education and Huaoranis now are more, uh, civilized and more mixed into the culture than they used to be. And I learned a lot more about them when I was back there later with AID.

[Assistant] OK, so you did traveling and you said you stayed for a third year and did you move to Quito in the third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because if you were only extending for one year.

[Assistant] You couldn't go home?

[User] Well, you could go home, but you couldn't, but you had to pay your own way to come back. But anyway, Eduardo was going to pay it, and I said, No, Eduardo, I'll take care of it somehow. And so I did come back.

[Assistant] So you went, you did go back to the States?

[User] Yeah, I came back. Came back to the States. I think that's the time. I got off the airplane in Baltimore airport with my poncho on and a blowgun and a spear.

[Assistant] You must have been a sight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you could go home, but you couldn't, but you had to pay your own way to come back. But anyway, Eduardo was going to pay it, and I said, No, Eduardo, I'll take care of it somehow. And so I did come back.

[Assistant] So you went, you did go back to the States?

[User] Yeah, I came back. Came back to the States. I think that's the time. I got off the airplane in Baltimore airport with my poncho on and a blowgun and a spear.

[Assistant] You must have been a sight.

[User] Well, my mother thought I was.

[Assistant] So then you went back to Quito and you coordinated with the Forestry Service. And did more volunteers then come?