[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Partly that. Secondarily, and perhaps even more importantly, we were given the gift of time. We didn't want that gift, but we were given months and months to not only fix the spacecraft, but rethink all our previous decisions, plans, and strategies, and change a lot of things, hopefully for the better.\n\n Same thing happened after the Challenger [51-L] explosion. They got time and they fixed a lot of things that needed to be fixed and they never had time to do it before. So we get an added benefit, but we regret the price we had to pay.

[Assistant] Let me interrupt for this second. Test pilots are losing friends often. And you must have lost some friends.

[User] Many, many.

[Assistant] You hit me hard with that, "This was on the ground." Whew.

[User] That's not the way you want it to happen. Not that it's any less noble.

[Assistant] Of course not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many, many.

[Assistant] You hit me hard with that, "This was on the ground." Whew.

[User] That's not the way you want it to happen. Not that it's any less noble.

[Assistant] Of course not.

[User] It just hurts.

[Assistant] I'm just wondering how the Apollo missions were different from the previous ones, the training for the Apollo program, especially since the possibility was that you're training for the Moon. How did the training change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's not the way you want it to happen. Not that it's any less noble.

[Assistant] Of course not.

[User] It just hurts.

[Assistant] I'm just wondering how the Apollo missions were different from the previous ones, the training for the Apollo program, especially since the possibility was that you're training for the Moon. How did the training change?

[User] It was the same, in that it was very goal-oriented. We tried to define it as narrowly as we [could], rather than as broadly as you would in research, because with the time constraints that we were facing then, the desire to get there as fast as we can, we were in a race and that was very evident to us all the time. You wanted to not be diverting your attention in any way to things that you really did not need to worry about. You wanted to focus on all the things that you knew you had to do and had to master. That was the principal difference as we went into the Apollo flights.

[Assistant] First, on the Apollo 1, on the tragedy, do you remember where you were when you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It just hurts.

[Assistant] I'm just wondering how the Apollo missions were different from the previous ones, the training for the Apollo program, especially since the possibility was that you're training for the Moon. How did the training change?

[User] It was the same, in that it was very goal-oriented. We tried to define it as narrowly as we [could], rather than as broadly as you would in research, because with the time constraints that we were facing then, the desire to get there as fast as we can, we were in a race and that was very evident to us all the time. You wanted to not be diverting your attention in any way to things that you really did not need to worry about. You wanted to focus on all the things that you knew you had to do and had to master. That was the principal difference as we went into the Apollo flights.

[Assistant] First, on the Apollo 1, on the tragedy, do you remember where you were when you—

[User] I was in Washington [D.C.]. The President was signing the [Outer Space] Treaty with other nations that kept the Moon as the property of all people. It was a non-staking-a-claim treaty.

[Assistant] So you were there at the White House?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the same, in that it was very goal-oriented. We tried to define it as narrowly as we [could], rather than as broadly as you would in research, because with the time constraints that we were facing then, the desire to get there as fast as we can, we were in a race and that was very evident to us all the time. You wanted to not be diverting your attention in any way to things that you really did not need to worry about. You wanted to focus on all the things that you knew you had to do and had to master. That was the principal difference as we went into the Apollo flights.

[Assistant] First, on the Apollo 1, on the tragedy, do you remember where you were when you—

[User] I was in Washington [D.C.]. The President was signing the [Outer Space] Treaty with other nations that kept the Moon as the property of all people. It was a non-staking-a-claim treaty.

[Assistant] So you were there at the White House?

[User] I was at the White House. I think it was at the White House. I believe it was.

[Assistant] At a ceremony, and then suddenly the news came through to everybody there, or on your way out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in Washington [D.C.]. The President was signing the [Outer Space] Treaty with other nations that kept the Moon as the property of all people. It was a non-staking-a-claim treaty.

[Assistant] So you were there at the White House?

[User] I was at the White House. I think it was at the White House. I believe it was.

[Assistant] At a ceremony, and then suddenly the news came through to everybody there, or on your way out?

[User] I think it was after the ceremony, but I don't remember exactly.

[Assistant] You were with a group of people representing NASA that had come up to be part of the ceremony, then you got the news, then you came back to Houston after you got the news?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at the White House. I think it was at the White House. I believe it was.

[Assistant] At a ceremony, and then suddenly the news came through to everybody there, or on your way out?

[User] I think it was after the ceremony, but I don't remember exactly.

[Assistant] You were with a group of people representing NASA that had come up to be part of the ceremony, then you got the news, then you came back to Houston after you got the news?

[User] Probably the next day. That's a bit hazy.

[Assistant] No, no, that's helpful to just put you in a place. How did you react when you first learned of NASA's decision to send Apollo 8 to the Moon? Do you recall the feelings of which one of these was going to go to the Moon? They were talking about sending Apollo 8 to the Moon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was after the ceremony, but I don't remember exactly.

[Assistant] You were with a group of people representing NASA that had come up to be part of the ceremony, then you got the news, then you came back to Houston after you got the news?

[User] Probably the next day. That's a bit hazy.

[Assistant] No, no, that's helpful to just put you in a place. How did you react when you first learned of NASA's decision to send Apollo 8 to the Moon? Do you recall the feelings of which one of these was going to go to the Moon? They were talking about sending Apollo 8 to the Moon.

[User] We were very excited about it. We thought it was very bold, because we still had the Pogo problem on the Saturn and we'd had a couple of problems with [both] Saturn V launches, so to take the next one, and without those problems being demonstrated as solved, and put men, a crew on it, not just take it into orbit, to take it to the Moon, it seemed incredibly aggressive. But we were for it. We thought that was a wonderful opportunity. If we could make it work, why, it would make us a giant jump ahead. You remember it was kind of complex because we had to switch crews around and switch some spacecraft and change the order completely. It was kind of a complex process, but it showed a lot of courage on the part of NASA management to make that step.

[Assistant] What was the impetus for that decision to speed it up to that degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably the next day. That's a bit hazy.

[Assistant] No, no, that's helpful to just put you in a place. How did you react when you first learned of NASA's decision to send Apollo 8 to the Moon? Do you recall the feelings of which one of these was going to go to the Moon? They were talking about sending Apollo 8 to the Moon.

[User] We were very excited about it. We thought it was very bold, because we still had the Pogo problem on the Saturn and we'd had a couple of problems with [both] Saturn V launches, so to take the next one, and without those problems being demonstrated as solved, and put men, a crew on it, not just take it into orbit, to take it to the Moon, it seemed incredibly aggressive. But we were for it. We thought that was a wonderful opportunity. If we could make it work, why, it would make us a giant jump ahead. You remember it was kind of complex because we had to switch crews around and switch some spacecraft and change the order completely. It was kind of a complex process, but it showed a lot of courage on the part of NASA management to make that step.

[Assistant] What was the impetus for that decision to speed it up to that degree?

[User] The lunar module was falling behind, wasn't ready to fly, and they were saying, "What can we do?" We'd been in Earth orbit. What can we do without a lunar module? I don't know which minds first came up with the idea of, "Well, why don't we think about a circumlunar flight with it and leave the lunar module behind."

[Assistant] What immediate new concerns would somebody like yourself have, let's just say that you're a pilot, a top-flight pilot would have about leaving Earth's immediate gravitational influence? What would frighten a pilot about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The lunar module was falling behind, wasn't ready to fly, and they were saying, "What can we do?" We'd been in Earth orbit. What can we do without a lunar module? I don't know which minds first came up with the idea of, "Well, why don't we think about a circumlunar flight with it and leave the lunar module behind."

[Assistant] What immediate new concerns would somebody like yourself have, let's just say that you're a pilot, a top-flight pilot would have about leaving Earth's immediate gravitational influence? What would frighten a pilot about that?

[User] Well, I suppose that everyone would have concerns, but I don't know that they'd all be the same. People would worry about different things. I remember that one of the things that I was concerned with at the time was whether our navigation was sufficiently accurate, that we could, in fact, devise a trajectory that would get us around the Moon at the right distance without, say, hitting the Moon on the back side or something like that, and if we lost communication with Earth, for whatever reason, could we navigate by ourselves using celestial navigation. We thought we could, but these were undemonstrated skills.

[Assistant]
That’s something to think about. [Laughter]

You've got me thinking about—you didn't have a very big window to look out of to do celestial navigation.

[User] NASA's probably the only organization in history that's been sold a one-power telescope. And that's what we used for doing the sextant shots and doing the star shots.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you were finally—and where were you—I'm sorry sometimes I try to put things in locations personally. But what were your thoughts and where were you when you were chosen for the lunar landing mission for Apollo 11 when you first got the word?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I suppose that everyone would have concerns, but I don't know that they'd all be the same. People would worry about different things. I remember that one of the things that I was concerned with at the time was whether our navigation was sufficiently accurate, that we could, in fact, devise a trajectory that would get us around the Moon at the right distance without, say, hitting the Moon on the back side or something like that, and if we lost communication with Earth, for whatever reason, could we navigate by ourselves using celestial navigation. We thought we could, but these were undemonstrated skills.

[Assistant]
That’s something to think about. [Laughter]

You've got me thinking about—you didn't have a very big window to look out of to do celestial navigation.

[User] NASA's probably the only organization in history that's been sold a one-power telescope. And that's what we used for doing the sextant shots and doing the star shots.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you were finally—and where were you—I'm sorry sometimes I try to put things in locations personally. But what were your thoughts and where were you when you were chosen for the lunar landing mission for Apollo 11 when you first got the word?

[User] It was during the flight of Apollo 8.

[Assistant] While it was up there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NASA's probably the only organization in history that's been sold a one-power telescope. And that's what we used for doing the sextant shots and doing the star shots.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you were finally—and where were you—I'm sorry sometimes I try to put things in locations personally. But what were your thoughts and where were you when you were chosen for the lunar landing mission for Apollo 11 when you first got the word?

[User] It was during the flight of Apollo 8.

[Assistant] While it was up there?

[User] Yes, and during the flight of Apollo 8 I had three or four meetings with Deke Slayton about, first, would I take the third one down and then we had a lot of talks about who might be available and be right to be on that crew, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] So you participated in a discussion of who.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was during the flight of Apollo 8.

[Assistant] While it was up there?

[User] Yes, and during the flight of Apollo 8 I had three or four meetings with Deke Slayton about, first, would I take the third one down and then we had a lot of talks about who might be available and be right to be on that crew, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] So you participated in a discussion of who.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was his decision, but he wanted your input.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and during the flight of Apollo 8 I had three or four meetings with Deke Slayton about, first, would I take the third one down and then we had a lot of talks about who might be available and be right to be on that crew, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] So you participated in a discussion of who.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was his decision, but he wanted your input.

[User] It was his decision, absolutely.

[Assistant] And [Michael] Collins and [Edwin E. "Buzz"] Aldrin [Jr.] were two people you thought would be—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was his decision, but he wanted your input.

[User] It was his decision, absolutely.

[Assistant] And [Michael] Collins and [Edwin E. "Buzz"] Aldrin [Jr.] were two people you thought would be—

[User] We didn't have very many choices, but we had several other people that we could make available, so we spent a lot of time talking about that.

[Assistant]
How well—

Wait. What characteristics mattered? Level-headedness, quick-wittedness, eye-hand coordination?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was his decision, absolutely.

[Assistant] And [Michael] Collins and [Edwin E. "Buzz"] Aldrin [Jr.] were two people you thought would be—

[User] We didn't have very many choices, but we had several other people that we could make available, so we spent a lot of time talking about that.

[Assistant]
How well—

Wait. What characteristics mattered? Level-headedness, quick-wittedness, eye-hand coordination?

[User] Experience.

[Assistant] General knowledge? Experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Experience.

[Assistant] General knowledge? Experience.

[User] Experience and what these people were particularly skilled at, had some knowledge or flight experience related to those jobs and so on. There were other considerations, like if we switch things around too much, you're going to get other people's nose out of joint because they stole somebody from somebody else's crew. I mean, there were a lot of typical kinds of things that you would concern yourself with.

[Assistant] Personality?

[User] Sure, we talked about those things. Talked about everything that you might expect.

[Assistant] You must have been quite touched that Slayton asked you. It must have made you—"My goodness, this is happening now." The excitement, the reality that this could be the big moment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Experience and what these people were particularly skilled at, had some knowledge or flight experience related to those jobs and so on. There were other considerations, like if we switch things around too much, you're going to get other people's nose out of joint because they stole somebody from somebody else's crew. I mean, there were a lot of typical kinds of things that you would concern yourself with.

[Assistant] Personality?

[User] Sure, we talked about those things. Talked about everything that you might expect.

[Assistant] You must have been quite touched that Slayton asked you. It must have made you—"My goodness, this is happening now." The excitement, the reality that this could be the big moment.

[User] Well, it was going to be a big moment, no matter what the flight objective was, but there wasn't any way you could know what it was going to be at that point in time, because the lunar module had not flown, hadn't even been in Earth orbit. We didn't know if we could communicate with two vehicles simultaneously at lunar distance. We didn't know whether the radar ranging would work. A lot of things we just didn't know at that point, and I think at that point in time I did not really expect that we'd get the chance to try a lunar landing on that flight. Too many things could go wrong on [Apollo] 8 or 9 or 10, whatever.

[Assistant] What was your relationship? Did you know Collins and Aldrin fairly well before this assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, we talked about those things. Talked about everything that you might expect.

[Assistant] You must have been quite touched that Slayton asked you. It must have made you—"My goodness, this is happening now." The excitement, the reality that this could be the big moment.

[User] Well, it was going to be a big moment, no matter what the flight objective was, but there wasn't any way you could know what it was going to be at that point in time, because the lunar module had not flown, hadn't even been in Earth orbit. We didn't know if we could communicate with two vehicles simultaneously at lunar distance. We didn't know whether the radar ranging would work. A lot of things we just didn't know at that point, and I think at that point in time I did not really expect that we'd get the chance to try a lunar landing on that flight. Too many things could go wrong on [Apollo] 8 or 9 or 10, whatever.

[Assistant] What was your relationship? Did you know Collins and Aldrin fairly well before this assignment?

[User] I'd never worked on a crew with them [during Gemini], but part of the time I had in the early days of Apollo 8, Michael was first on [the prime crew of] that flight. And I had … worked with Buzz [on the Apollo 8 back-up crew]. But I'd known them pretty well [before that] because … we were still a pretty small group. We knew some of the people a lot better than others, because we worked with them a lot, spent a lot more hours in the middle of the night testing spacecraft. You get to know each other very well in those periods.

[Assistant] Who ended up picking the names Eagle and Columbia for your spacecraft? What is the symbolism, do you feel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was going to be a big moment, no matter what the flight objective was, but there wasn't any way you could know what it was going to be at that point in time, because the lunar module had not flown, hadn't even been in Earth orbit. We didn't know if we could communicate with two vehicles simultaneously at lunar distance. We didn't know whether the radar ranging would work. A lot of things we just didn't know at that point, and I think at that point in time I did not really expect that we'd get the chance to try a lunar landing on that flight. Too many things could go wrong on [Apollo] 8 or 9 or 10, whatever.

[Assistant] What was your relationship? Did you know Collins and Aldrin fairly well before this assignment?

[User] I'd never worked on a crew with them [during Gemini], but part of the time I had in the early days of Apollo 8, Michael was first on [the prime crew of] that flight. And I had … worked with Buzz [on the Apollo 8 back-up crew]. But I'd known them pretty well [before that] because … we were still a pretty small group. We knew some of the people a lot better than others, because we worked with them a lot, spent a lot more hours in the middle of the night testing spacecraft. You get to know each other very well in those periods.

[Assistant] Who ended up picking the names Eagle and Columbia for your spacecraft? What is the symbolism, do you feel?

[User] The crew. We, as a crew, did that. We all participated. I think Mike probably was as convincing as anyone, as we deliberated.

[Assistant] Was it one of your fun recreational things, making a list of what we should call them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd never worked on a crew with them [during Gemini], but part of the time I had in the early days of Apollo 8, Michael was first on [the prime crew of] that flight. And I had … worked with Buzz [on the Apollo 8 back-up crew]. But I'd known them pretty well [before that] because … we were still a pretty small group. We knew some of the people a lot better than others, because we worked with them a lot, spent a lot more hours in the middle of the night testing spacecraft. You get to know each other very well in those periods.

[Assistant] Who ended up picking the names Eagle and Columbia for your spacecraft? What is the symbolism, do you feel?

[User] The crew. We, as a crew, did that. We all participated. I think Mike probably was as convincing as anyone, as we deliberated.

[Assistant] Was it one of your fun recreational things, making a list of what we should call them?

[User] We had lots of those little things which we considered to be non-operational decisions. They were kind of a pain to have to deal with all those, but we had to do it.

[Assistant] Did you have a name that you preferred to the Eagle and the Columbia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The crew. We, as a crew, did that. We all participated. I think Mike probably was as convincing as anyone, as we deliberated.

[Assistant] Was it one of your fun recreational things, making a list of what we should call them?

[User] We had lots of those little things which we considered to be non-operational decisions. They were kind of a pain to have to deal with all those, but we had to do it.

[Assistant] Did you have a name that you preferred to the Eagle and the Columbia?

[User] No, I thought we came out with the right ones.

[Assistant] While we're on these naming, these are famous names, of course, it was [British Prime Minister] Winston Churchill who picked Overlord.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had lots of those little things which we considered to be non-operational decisions. They were kind of a pain to have to deal with all those, but we had to do it.

[Assistant] Did you have a name that you preferred to the Eagle and the Columbia?

[User] No, I thought we came out with the right ones.

[Assistant] While we're on these naming, these are famous names, of course, it was [British Prime Minister] Winston Churchill who picked Overlord.

[User] Was it?

[Assistant] And then how did they get Sword, Juno, Gold, Utah, and Omaha Beach? They drew them out of a hat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was it?

[Assistant] And then how did they get Sword, Juno, Gold, Utah, and Omaha Beach? They drew them out of a hat.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Interesting.

[Assistant] Okay. Once the decision had been made on Apollo 11 to be the first one to attempt a lunar landing, how much emphasis did the mission planners and manager place on public-relation issues? How much of your time was consumed with "How are we going to market this to the American public" for all the reasons that you’d have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Interesting.

[Assistant] Okay. Once the decision had been made on Apollo 11 to be the first one to attempt a lunar landing, how much emphasis did the mission planners and manager place on public-relation issues? How much of your time was consumed with "How are we going to market this to the American public" for all the reasons that you’d have?

[User] I didn't think there was very much of that. There were some things that were done specifically for the benefit of giving the press the opportunity to either talk with us or take pictures of our activities in preparation, and there were other normal things that we were doing, where some access was granted. We probably resented that to some extent, but at the same time we recognized that it was not an unreasonable requirement, and we were certainly willing to accommodate those requirements.

[Assistant] Did you find the intense media focus disrupting, a disruptive force in any way or for your concentration or training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Interesting.

[Assistant] Okay. Once the decision had been made on Apollo 11 to be the first one to attempt a lunar landing, how much emphasis did the mission planners and manager place on public-relation issues? How much of your time was consumed with "How are we going to market this to the American public" for all the reasons that you’d have?

[User] I didn't think there was very much of that. There were some things that were done specifically for the benefit of giving the press the opportunity to either talk with us or take pictures of our activities in preparation, and there were other normal things that we were doing, where some access was granted. We probably resented that to some extent, but at the same time we recognized that it was not an unreasonable requirement, and we were certainly willing to accommodate those requirements.

[Assistant] Did you find the intense media focus disrupting, a disruptive force in any way or for your concentration or training?

[User] Well, it might have been a burden if we'd had time to notice it. [Laughter] But we were going full blast trying to be ready on time, and we just tried to shut anything out of our mind that wasn't focused on our principal objective.

[Assistant] Describe your training with the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle [LLRV] and the Lunar Landing Training Vehicle [LLTV]. What was it like to try to fly it, and how valuable was that experience during your mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you're right. We tried to be as focused as we could, work on the things we could do something about, and not worry about the things that were beyond our ability to change.

[Assistant] If you can really capture yourself back, as the day clock's ticking for takeoff, would you every night, or most nights, just go out quietly and look at the Moon? I mean did it become something like “my goodness.”

[User] No, I never did that.

[Assistant] Really? [Laughter]

[User] You know, we'd look at the books or we'd talk about strategies or "What are we going to do if this happens?" Or, "Are you sure you know how to handle this?" That's where we spent our time.

[Assistant] A lot of "what if" talk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never did that.

[Assistant] Really? [Laughter]

[User] You know, we'd look at the books or we'd talk about strategies or "What are we going to do if this happens?" Or, "Are you sure you know how to handle this?" That's where we spent our time.

[Assistant] A lot of "what if" talk?

[User] Yes, yes, that's our business. You know, normally…a lot of unexpected things happen, and usually they're not the ones you practice, but the fact that you practiced a lot of different things puts you in the proper mindset to handle whatever it is that comes along, even if it isn't the one that you've experienced before. And I think that happened on a lot of the flights.

[Assistant] Did you develop a relationship of studying the Moon, the maps of the Moon as they were at the time, and learning everything you could about its makeup? Part of your reading, if you're not just looking at the Moon, you had to become an expert on the Moon? Or was it that important?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we'd look at the books or we'd talk about strategies or "What are we going to do if this happens?" Or, "Are you sure you know how to handle this?" That's where we spent our time.

[Assistant] A lot of "what if" talk?

[User] Yes, yes, that's our business. You know, normally…a lot of unexpected things happen, and usually they're not the ones you practice, but the fact that you practiced a lot of different things puts you in the proper mindset to handle whatever it is that comes along, even if it isn't the one that you've experienced before. And I think that happened on a lot of the flights.

[Assistant] Did you develop a relationship of studying the Moon, the maps of the Moon as they were at the time, and learning everything you could about its makeup? Part of your reading, if you're not just looking at the Moon, you had to become an expert on the Moon? Or was it that important?

[User] You know, we'd been doing that part of it now for three or four years, working on just background information. In the last months before flight, we didn't do much of that except to look specifically at our landing areas and landmarks and things that we would actually be using or to which we would be referring during the progress of the flight. Those things we looked at, but the broader picture we didn't spend much time on…

[Assistant] I was curious if you had any geologic—I guess I was getting to this on the question about the Moon itself, but did NASA require geological training for the Apollo 11 mission so you could notice things that you might see? Or was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're always concerned when any kind of alarm comes on, but it wasn't a serious concern because there wasn't anything obviously wrong. The vehicle was flying well, it was going down the trajectory we expected, no abnormalities in anything that we saw, other than the computer said, "There's a problem, and it's not my fault."\n\n The people here on the ground were right on top of that, and of course, the computer continued in a contrary manner periodically all the way to the surface. But my own feeling was, as long as everything was going well and looked right, the engine was operating right, I had control, and we weren't getting into any unusual attitudes or things that looked like they were out of place, I would be in favor of continuing, no matter what the computer was complaining about.

[Assistant] As much as you've talked about your experience and duty in propelling this mission forward, there's a real chance of death and failure here, and not just failure for you—and death for yourself and failure for the United States, the whole world watching this kind of mission.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you read lately that they released that Nixon had William Safire write a death letter about what would happen if you, the three astronauts died on this mission? Did you get a chance to see that document?

[User] I have heard that, but I have not seen it.

[Assistant] You just have to numb yourself from that kind of concern at the grandness of all this? Or is this with—I guess what I'm saying is, is Apollo 11 due to the, as Steve said, it was perhaps the most watched event in the history of, certainly the century, of the world. How does—you didn't treat it differently mentally at all, as you would something—one of your previous missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I thought about it after landing, and because we had a lot of other things to do, it was not something that I really concentrated on but just something that was kind of passing around subliminally or in the background. But it, you know, was a pretty simple statement, talking about stepping off something. Why, it wasn't a very complex thing. It was what it was.

[Assistant]
As Doug said, everybody in the world knows the line, and everybody in the world are so grateful that you didn't say, "That's one giant leap forward for the United States."

I guess now you must realize how often that news clip of you descending, the television image. When you see that now, this many years later, that image, does it still affect you in any way, like, "Wow, that's me back then?"

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] When you crafted the line when you were coming down, were you—I mean, how much of a concern is that? I mean, you had a lot of things running—also you're hoping just to get that footprint put on the Moon.

[User] I didn't think of it as being as important as others. I didn't want to be dumb, but it was contrived in a way, and I was guilty of that.

[Assistant] When you were on the Moon, there are not that many photographs or you on the Moon. There seem to be much more of Buzz Aldrin. That's because you were taking more of the photographs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] When you crafted the line when you were coming down, were you—I mean, how much of a concern is that? I mean, you had a lot of things running—also you're hoping just to get that footprint put on the Moon.

[User] I didn't think of it as being as important as others. I didn't want to be dumb, but it was contrived in a way, and I was guilty of that.

[Assistant] When you were on the Moon, there are not that many photographs or you on the Moon. There seem to be much more of Buzz Aldrin. That's because you were taking more of the photographs?

[User] He's a lot more photogenic than I am. [Laughter] I had the job of taking a lot of the pictures. That was part of my assigned responsibility. There was a short time in the middle where I transferred the camera to Buzz and he took some pictures, and we each had assigned objectives that we were supposed to catch. I think we probably caught a fair share of the things we were supposed to take pictures of, and not too many really bad shots. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm struck by—coming down here, there had to be a lot of wonderment, a lot of excitement as you took that last step onto the lunar surface, then you guys went to work. Insofar as there are critics, they said, "Why did we send men to the Moon? We should have sent up machines to gather up things." I'm struck by something you said earlier when you were talking about geology. There is no computer in the world that can match the human eye and the human brain. The things that you saw you hadn't expected to see, that's worth it. I mean, no machine in the world can do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't think of it as being as important as others. I didn't want to be dumb, but it was contrived in a way, and I was guilty of that.

[Assistant] When you were on the Moon, there are not that many photographs or you on the Moon. There seem to be much more of Buzz Aldrin. That's because you were taking more of the photographs?

[User] He's a lot more photogenic than I am. [Laughter] I had the job of taking a lot of the pictures. That was part of my assigned responsibility. There was a short time in the middle where I transferred the camera to Buzz and he took some pictures, and we each had assigned objectives that we were supposed to catch. I think we probably caught a fair share of the things we were supposed to take pictures of, and not too many really bad shots. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I'm struck by—coming down here, there had to be a lot of wonderment, a lot of excitement as you took that last step onto the lunar surface, then you guys went to work. Insofar as there are critics, they said, "Why did we send men to the Moon? We should have sent up machines to gather up things." I'm struck by something you said earlier when you were talking about geology. There is no computer in the world that can match the human eye and the human brain. The things that you saw you hadn't expected to see, that's worth it. I mean, no machine in the world can do that.

[User] Machines are getting better and better, but fortunately, there's still a place for us homo sapiens, some reason for us to continue to exist. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess we should mention—we jumped the story a little—but when the landing occurred, you had to pilot to make sure it didn't go into a crater. How damaging would that have been if you couldn't and you landed in—would that have been the end of the mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I recognize that I'm portrayed as staying out of the public eye, but from my perspective it doesn't seem that way, because I do so many things, I go so many places, I give so many talks, I write so many papers that, from my point of view, it seems like I don't know how I could do more. But I recognize that from another perspective, outside, I'm only able to accept less than 1 percent of all the requests that come in, so to them it seems like I'm not doing anything. But I can't change that.

[Assistant] I've seen a thing of the number of honorary doctorates you're offered and how few you take, and you really are very select in what you do. And you also seem to—

[User] It's very difficult to turn down Sister Frances Marie [Thrailkill, College of Mount St. Joseph, Cincinnati, Ohio]. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You can turn Harvard [University, Cambridge, Massachusetts] down, but not Sister Frances Marie. [Laughter]\n\n Well, after that, did you play any role—well, after you left the astronaut corps, shortly after Apollo 11, you took a position as Associate Administrator of Aerospace.

[User] Yes, Deputy Associate Administrator of Aeronautics [at NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C.]. I went back to aeronautics, from whence I came.

[Assistant] Yes. Was that something that you had premeditated all along, that, "When I'm finished with this mission, I'd like to get back to doing that," or did it evolve after seeing a bit of the—you wanted to get back to your roots in a way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's very difficult to turn down Sister Frances Marie [Thrailkill, College of Mount St. Joseph, Cincinnati, Ohio]. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You can turn Harvard [University, Cambridge, Massachusetts] down, but not Sister Frances Marie. [Laughter]\n\n Well, after that, did you play any role—well, after you left the astronaut corps, shortly after Apollo 11, you took a position as Associate Administrator of Aerospace.

[User] Yes, Deputy Associate Administrator of Aeronautics [at NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C.]. I went back to aeronautics, from whence I came.

[Assistant] Yes. Was that something that you had premeditated all along, that, "When I'm finished with this mission, I'd like to get back to doing that," or did it evolve after seeing a bit of the—you wanted to get back to your roots in a way?

[User] No, no, no. It didn't come that way. It wasn't anything I desired. It was the Administrator [asking] if I would help him in that area, and it was an area I felt comfortable with and knowledgeable about, and I was glad to have the experience, although I think everybody should have to go to Washington and spend a little time, just to see how difficult it is to run this country and do penance there.\n\n It's a frustrating place for me because so much coordination and greasing the skids goes on in Washington that by the time you've gotten around to everybody, the first guy's forgotten what the subject was. It's really hard to get things done there, and it's amazing to me that anybody can get things rolling from Washington, just because of the nature of the place.

[Assistant] Let me ask—we're both academics. That's where I've made my career. That's where Doug has made his career. You've been an academic. Tell us about that. How did you decide to go to [University of] Cincinnati and do you enjoy the teaching and the research, and what part of the academic life was what you expected it to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And, you know, there's a lot of constituencies, all with different perspectives, and it's quite a challenge. Nevertheless, it's one of the strengths of our country.

[Assistant]
Oh, I love being a teacher, and I never would have done it any other way. But I remember once being with some colleagues, and they were complaining about, you know, we're not getting paid enough and they're overworking us, and so on, and I just exploded. I said, "Listen,"—this was at LSU [Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana]—"you've got the state as your patron, and they're paying you to teach nine hours a week on exactly what you want to be doing, what you want to be teaching, and they're paying you to read exactly what you want to read, the literature of your field. And you're telling me that you're being browbeaten?" They never could get the point of what I was saying.

I was curious, did you play any role in planning at all after Apollo 11 in Skylab or the Shuttle, Space Station, or even future missions to Mars?

[User] Not very much. I was on the Apollo 13 Accident Board, and during that time period was when I was invited to go up to Washington. So then I was sort of overwhelmed by my new duties in that new role, which I enjoyed, but gave me little time to be concerned about the problems of the day at Houston.

[Assistant] Would you like to see us go to Mars?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you think it's possible?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very much. I was on the Apollo 13 Accident Board, and during that time period was when I was invited to go up to Washington. So then I was sort of overwhelmed by my new duties in that new role, which I enjoyed, but gave me little time to be concerned about the problems of the day at Houston.

[Assistant] Would you like to see us go to Mars?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you think it's possible?

[User] Yes. I think it's doable now, but very expensive and probably not within reasonable expectation of being able to be budgeted in the near future…. I guess the great hope is that we have a breakthrough someplace that would make that problem much less awesome than it appears at this point.

[Assistant] Or space out the time a bit. It's not the cold war anymore, and it's not a race. So you could space out the time frame and cut your annual cost quite a bit by doing that, I would think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you think it's possible?

[User] Yes. I think it's doable now, but very expensive and probably not within reasonable expectation of being able to be budgeted in the near future…. I guess the great hope is that we have a breakthrough someplace that would make that problem much less awesome than it appears at this point.

[Assistant] Or space out the time a bit. It's not the cold war anymore, and it's not a race. So you could space out the time frame and cut your annual cost quite a bit by doing that, I would think.

[User] Still, it's still a big number—

[Assistant] Still a big number, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think it's doable now, but very expensive and probably not within reasonable expectation of being able to be budgeted in the near future…. I guess the great hope is that we have a breakthrough someplace that would make that problem much less awesome than it appears at this point.

[Assistant] Or space out the time a bit. It's not the cold war anymore, and it's not a race. So you could space out the time frame and cut your annual cost quite a bit by doing that, I would think.

[User] Still, it's still a big number—

[Assistant] Still a big number, yes.

[User] And—

[Assistant] It's a big effort. It's got to be done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Still, it's still a big number—

[Assistant] Still a big number, yes.

[User] And—

[Assistant] It's a big effort. It's got to be done.

[User] I hope.

[Assistant] Were you disappointed, Mr. Armstrong, after Apollo 11, after the halcyon days of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and now it's the early Nixon years and you're going to the Moon, that the Nixon administration started cutting NASA budgets and there's starting to be due to Vietnam and other concerns in society? After Apollo 11 and all that interest, it started becoming almost commonplace to walk on the Moon and for NASA to go, and the program kind of petered out and lost interest instead of continuing to ride the wave. What do you attribute that to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And—

[Assistant] It's a big effort. It's got to be done.

[User] I hope.

[Assistant] Were you disappointed, Mr. Armstrong, after Apollo 11, after the halcyon days of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and now it's the early Nixon years and you're going to the Moon, that the Nixon administration started cutting NASA budgets and there's starting to be due to Vietnam and other concerns in society? After Apollo 11 and all that interest, it started becoming almost commonplace to walk on the Moon and for NASA to go, and the program kind of petered out and lost interest instead of continuing to ride the wave. What do you attribute that to?

[User] Oh, I think it's predominantly the responsibility of the human character. We don't have a very long attention span, and needs and pressures vary from day to day, and we have a difficult time remembering a few months ago, or we have a difficult time looking very far into the future. We're very "now" oriented. I'm not surprised by that. I think we'll always be in space, but it will take us longer to do the new things than the advocates would like, and in some cases it will take external factors or forces which we can't control and can't anticipate that will cause things to happen or not happen. Nevertheless, looking back, we were really very privileged to live in that thin slice of history where we changed how man looks at himself and what he might become and where he might go. So I'm very thankful that we got to see that and be part of it.

[Assistant] Do you ever hope to go back in space? Is that something that you'd like to do one more time after watching John Glenn go back up recently as a—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope.

[Assistant] Were you disappointed, Mr. Armstrong, after Apollo 11, after the halcyon days of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and now it's the early Nixon years and you're going to the Moon, that the Nixon administration started cutting NASA budgets and there's starting to be due to Vietnam and other concerns in society? After Apollo 11 and all that interest, it started becoming almost commonplace to walk on the Moon and for NASA to go, and the program kind of petered out and lost interest instead of continuing to ride the wave. What do you attribute that to?

[User] Oh, I think it's predominantly the responsibility of the human character. We don't have a very long attention span, and needs and pressures vary from day to day, and we have a difficult time remembering a few months ago, or we have a difficult time looking very far into the future. We're very "now" oriented. I'm not surprised by that. I think we'll always be in space, but it will take us longer to do the new things than the advocates would like, and in some cases it will take external factors or forces which we can't control and can't anticipate that will cause things to happen or not happen. Nevertheless, looking back, we were really very privileged to live in that thin slice of history where we changed how man looks at himself and what he might become and where he might go. So I'm very thankful that we got to see that and be part of it.

[Assistant] Do you ever hope to go back in space? Is that something that you'd like to do one more time after watching John Glenn go back up recently as a—

[User] If they offered me command of a Mars mission, I'd jump at it. [Laughter]

[Assistant] But I read in one of the interviews that it's going to be two and a half years, was one of the astronauts'—and that the proper models to look at are not Apollo 11, but look at Lewis and Clark or Vasco da Gama.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it's predominantly the responsibility of the human character. We don't have a very long attention span, and needs and pressures vary from day to day, and we have a difficult time remembering a few months ago, or we have a difficult time looking very far into the future. We're very "now" oriented. I'm not surprised by that. I think we'll always be in space, but it will take us longer to do the new things than the advocates would like, and in some cases it will take external factors or forces which we can't control and can't anticipate that will cause things to happen or not happen. Nevertheless, looking back, we were really very privileged to live in that thin slice of history where we changed how man looks at himself and what he might become and where he might go. So I'm very thankful that we got to see that and be part of it.

[Assistant] Do you ever hope to go back in space? Is that something that you'd like to do one more time after watching John Glenn go back up recently as a—

[User] If they offered me command of a Mars mission, I'd jump at it. [Laughter]

[Assistant] But I read in one of the interviews that it's going to be two and a half years, was one of the astronauts'—and that the proper models to look at are not Apollo 11, but look at Lewis and Clark or Vasco da Gama.

[User] Exactly. That's awfully good advice. Yes. Yes. Exactly right.

[Assistant] We're almost finished here, but I did want to touch on the presidential commission on the Challenger, and you were one of the commission members picked. How and when were you asked to participate on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know the inner workings of the Shuttle's systems, components. I knew the program in a macro sense—objectives, techniques, and general strategies. But I didn't find that to be an extreme disadvantage. We had the availability on the commission and reporting to the commission of very knowledgeable people from every aspect of the technical side of the business, and it didn't take the commission long to get up to speed and understand what the elements of the problem were.

[Assistant] The Apollo program closed in 1972. Is it surprising that we haven't gone back to the Moon in so long, and did you ever imagine that it would take so long for people to return, for us to return?

[User] Well, had you asked me that question thirty years ago, I probably would have said, no, I can't imagine that we'll make such a small number of steps over the next three decades. But looking back on it, I find it fairly understandable in the light of conflicting requirements for resources that the country has. It has a lot of other important challenges. I suspect that we'll get some chances.\n\n And there have been remarkable things done. If you look back and see where we've gone in the unmanned side, the probes that we've investigated the outer planets and comets, landed on an asteroid, just what opened up with the Hubble [Space Telescope] and others, the known volume of our environment by millions of light years, it's remarkable what has happened in the last thirty years, and I think we'll get some more chances.

[Assistant] In Ohio do you have your own telescope? Do you ever look up and use your telescope in a recreational kind of way?

[User] [No, but I often enjoy looking at the night sky.]

[Assistant] When you were talking about how remarkable it was, this has been pretty remarkable, too [holding book Shuttle-Mir: The United States and Russia Share History’s Highest Stage by Clay Morgan]. That's a political development that would have been unpredictable in 1969.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, had you asked me that question thirty years ago, I probably would have said, no, I can't imagine that we'll make such a small number of steps over the next three decades. But looking back on it, I find it fairly understandable in the light of conflicting requirements for resources that the country has. It has a lot of other important challenges. I suspect that we'll get some chances.\n\n And there have been remarkable things done. If you look back and see where we've gone in the unmanned side, the probes that we've investigated the outer planets and comets, landed on an asteroid, just what opened up with the Hubble [Space Telescope] and others, the known volume of our environment by millions of light years, it's remarkable what has happened in the last thirty years, and I think we'll get some more chances.

[Assistant] In Ohio do you have your own telescope? Do you ever look up and use your telescope in a recreational kind of way?

[User] [No, but I often enjoy looking at the night sky.]

[Assistant] When you were talking about how remarkable it was, this has been pretty remarkable, too [holding book Shuttle-Mir: The United States and Russia Share History’s Highest Stage by Clay Morgan]. That's a political development that would have been unpredictable in 1969.

[User] Yes. That's quite true. That's quite true.

[Assistant] Well, in closing here, I just wanted to ask you, what do you see for the future of manned and unmanned space flight? Do you have any feelings of where it's headed? Maybe a better question is, where would you like to see manned and unmanned space flight head, to keep pushing the envelope?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [No, but I often enjoy looking at the night sky.]

[Assistant] When you were talking about how remarkable it was, this has been pretty remarkable, too [holding book Shuttle-Mir: The United States and Russia Share History’s Highest Stage by Clay Morgan]. That's a political development that would have been unpredictable in 1969.

[User] Yes. That's quite true. That's quite true.

[Assistant] Well, in closing here, I just wanted to ask you, what do you see for the future of manned and unmanned space flight? Do you have any feelings of where it's headed? Maybe a better question is, where would you like to see manned and unmanned space flight head, to keep pushing the envelope?

[User] There's an increasing interest to go back to the Moon. There's been enough time now that there are a lot of persuasive reasons why we could benefit from a return visit.\n\n I personally hope that we'll go on to Mars. I think that will create enormous excitement and increased understanding of at least the near part of the solar system.\n\n But I can't predict what will happen. What happens is going to depend on a variety of forces and functions that can't be controlled. It's like herding cats.

[Assistant] Although you're an engineer and proud of it, do you ever use your imagination for reading science fiction books and trying to envision what it might be like 1,000 years from now or 500 years from now or 200, or do you try to always deal with what seems to be the next step in the practical world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's quite true. That's quite true.

[Assistant] Well, in closing here, I just wanted to ask you, what do you see for the future of manned and unmanned space flight? Do you have any feelings of where it's headed? Maybe a better question is, where would you like to see manned and unmanned space flight head, to keep pushing the envelope?

[User] There's an increasing interest to go back to the Moon. There's been enough time now that there are a lot of persuasive reasons why we could benefit from a return visit.\n\n I personally hope that we'll go on to Mars. I think that will create enormous excitement and increased understanding of at least the near part of the solar system.\n\n But I can't predict what will happen. What happens is going to depend on a variety of forces and functions that can't be controlled. It's like herding cats.

[Assistant] Although you're an engineer and proud of it, do you ever use your imagination for reading science fiction books and trying to envision what it might be like 1,000 years from now or 500 years from now or 200, or do you try to always deal with what seems to be the next step in the practical world?

[User] I'm having a little trouble with next month right now. [Laughter] It's fun to look ahead, but candidly, I don't have the ability that some of those wonderful science fiction writers of past generations had. They turned out to be quite perceptive in many ways, and I wish I had a fraction of that ability.

[Assistant] Are there any of them in particular that you read, like Jules Verne, or somebody that you learned to admire, in retrospect, their writing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's an increasing interest to go back to the Moon. There's been enough time now that there are a lot of persuasive reasons why we could benefit from a return visit.\n\n I personally hope that we'll go on to Mars. I think that will create enormous excitement and increased understanding of at least the near part of the solar system.\n\n But I can't predict what will happen. What happens is going to depend on a variety of forces and functions that can't be controlled. It's like herding cats.

[Assistant] Although you're an engineer and proud of it, do you ever use your imagination for reading science fiction books and trying to envision what it might be like 1,000 years from now or 500 years from now or 200, or do you try to always deal with what seems to be the next step in the practical world?

[User] I'm having a little trouble with next month right now. [Laughter] It's fun to look ahead, but candidly, I don't have the ability that some of those wonderful science fiction writers of past generations had. They turned out to be quite perceptive in many ways, and I wish I had a fraction of that ability.

[Assistant] Are there any of them in particular that you read, like Jules Verne, or somebody that you learned to admire, in retrospect, their writing?

[User] Well, I have a complete set of H. G. Wells, and in reading it now, I find I'm less enthusiastic about his writings than I was when I was a much younger man. But nevertheless, the creative ideas that they have put forth, that have caused a thousand … of other people to think in new ways, has been very important to the progress of civilization.

[Assistant] Do you ever get—well, when these movies come out, like Star Wars or any sort of space films, are you attracted to watching them just to see, you know, how they're portraying space in the future? Do you take the time to, out of your curiosity just to see, look at those sort of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm having a little trouble with next month right now. [Laughter] It's fun to look ahead, but candidly, I don't have the ability that some of those wonderful science fiction writers of past generations had. They turned out to be quite perceptive in many ways, and I wish I had a fraction of that ability.

[Assistant] Are there any of them in particular that you read, like Jules Verne, or somebody that you learned to admire, in retrospect, their writing?

[User] Well, I have a complete set of H. G. Wells, and in reading it now, I find I'm less enthusiastic about his writings than I was when I was a much younger man. But nevertheless, the creative ideas that they have put forth, that have caused a thousand … of other people to think in new ways, has been very important to the progress of civilization.

[Assistant] Do you ever get—well, when these movies come out, like Star Wars or any sort of space films, are you attracted to watching them just to see, you know, how they're portraying space in the future? Do you take the time to, out of your curiosity just to see, look at those sort of things?

[User] I thought 2001, which was many decades ago now, was a very fine film, very authentic in terms of the way space looks and the way vehicles move and trajectories and so on. Many of the more recent space fiction movies have much less realism than 2001 did. They're more exciting, but not realistic.

[Assistant] Students ask me, "Doc, there's nowhere left to discover. We've had Lewis and Clark, we've had [Ferdinand] Magellan and so on," and I say, "Listen, the Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery. Ninety-seven percent of the ocean's floors have never been looked at. Where Bob [Robert D.] Ballard is right now is just the cutting edge of it, and Mars, and then who knows what after that? The Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I have a complete set of H. G. Wells, and in reading it now, I find I'm less enthusiastic about his writings than I was when I was a much younger man. But nevertheless, the creative ideas that they have put forth, that have caused a thousand … of other people to think in new ways, has been very important to the progress of civilization.

[Assistant] Do you ever get—well, when these movies come out, like Star Wars or any sort of space films, are you attracted to watching them just to see, you know, how they're portraying space in the future? Do you take the time to, out of your curiosity just to see, look at those sort of things?

[User] I thought 2001, which was many decades ago now, was a very fine film, very authentic in terms of the way space looks and the way vehicles move and trajectories and so on. Many of the more recent space fiction movies have much less realism than 2001 did. They're more exciting, but not realistic.

[Assistant] Students ask me, "Doc, there's nowhere left to discover. We've had Lewis and Clark, we've had [Ferdinand] Magellan and so on," and I say, "Listen, the Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery. Ninety-seven percent of the ocean's floors have never been looked at. Where Bob [Robert D.] Ballard is right now is just the cutting edge of it, and Mars, and then who knows what after that? The Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery."

[User] I think you're right. I hope you're right. My expectation is that we're not going to run out of new stuff to look at.

[Assistant] No. Ninety-six percent of the world's plants have never been described by a botanist.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought 2001, which was many decades ago now, was a very fine film, very authentic in terms of the way space looks and the way vehicles move and trajectories and so on. Many of the more recent space fiction movies have much less realism than 2001 did. They're more exciting, but not realistic.

[Assistant] Students ask me, "Doc, there's nowhere left to discover. We've had Lewis and Clark, we've had [Ferdinand] Magellan and so on," and I say, "Listen, the Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery. Ninety-seven percent of the ocean's floors have never been looked at. Where Bob [Robert D.] Ballard is right now is just the cutting edge of it, and Mars, and then who knows what after that? The Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery."

[User] I think you're right. I hope you're right. My expectation is that we're not going to run out of new stuff to look at.

[Assistant] No. Ninety-six percent of the world's plants have never been described by a botanist.

[User] I didn't know that.

[Assistant] It's just amazing. You want a cure for Alzheimer's? It's growing out there, right behind us. We just haven't discovered it yet. [Laughter]\n\n Well, a little quick story on that. Thomas Jefferson was a great believer in for every disease of mankind, there's a cure growing here on Earth, we've just got to find it. So one of his instructions to Lewis was, "Tell us what those Indians use for medicine." Lewis' mother was a folk doctor, herbs and so on. So Lewis, from Ft. Mandan [North Dakota], the first winter out, wrote back to Jefferson to report on what had been discovered so far. He said, "When the Indians get a toothache, they chew the bark of the willow." The bark of the willow is aspirin. That's all in the world aspirin is, is the bark of the willow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you're right. I hope you're right. My expectation is that we're not going to run out of new stuff to look at.

[Assistant] No. Ninety-six percent of the world's plants have never been described by a botanist.

[User] I didn't know that.

[Assistant] It's just amazing. You want a cure for Alzheimer's? It's growing out there, right behind us. We just haven't discovered it yet. [Laughter]\n\n Well, a little quick story on that. Thomas Jefferson was a great believer in for every disease of mankind, there's a cure growing here on Earth, we've just got to find it. So one of his instructions to Lewis was, "Tell us what those Indians use for medicine." Lewis' mother was a folk doctor, herbs and so on. So Lewis, from Ft. Mandan [North Dakota], the first winter out, wrote back to Jefferson to report on what had been discovered so far. He said, "When the Indians get a toothache, they chew the bark of the willow." The bark of the willow is aspirin. That's all in the world aspirin is, is the bark of the willow.

[User] I didn't know that.

[Assistant]
Yes. So I know there's a plant out there that's going to cure Alzheimer's. I just don't know what the name of the plant is.

I guess we should, I think, get ready to wrap this up. My last question is, you seem to have always gone through your life in your own kind of very methodical way, and you've had a lot of people that have been part of your team or that you've worked with. Has there ever been an individual who's really had a major effect on the way that you've decided to look at life and the way that you want to live your life and carry yourself, whether as a teacher or father or—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know that.

[Assistant]
Yes. So I know there's a plant out there that's going to cure Alzheimer's. I just don't know what the name of the plant is.

I guess we should, I think, get ready to wrap this up. My last question is, you seem to have always gone through your life in your own kind of very methodical way, and you've had a lot of people that have been part of your team or that you've worked with. Has there ever been an individual who's really had a major effect on the way that you've decided to look at life and the way that you want to live your life and carry yourself, whether as a teacher or father or—?

[User] I think it's the summation of the influence of twenty or fifty people, each of which was significant, but not overpowering.\n\n Rebecca

[Assistant] Well, if you don't mind, before we end, one of the efforts of our team as a team is that usually, because we're all oral historians, at the end of our oral history, the person who is facilitating usually asks the rest of the team members [if they have questions], because sometimes some issues might come up that we didn't get a chance to [talk about] — would you object if I asked our space historians if they have a question or two for you?

[User] Okay.\n\n Carol

[Assistant] I have a couple of questions, actually. Early on, you mentioned that during the space program you were 98 percent focused on your job. I was curious as to how much you were aware of situations in the country around you as you were going about your daily job—so much was going on in the ‘60s—and whether that impacted you at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's the summation of the influence of twenty or fifty people, each of which was significant, but not overpowering.\n\n Rebecca

[Assistant] Well, if you don't mind, before we end, one of the efforts of our team as a team is that usually, because we're all oral historians, at the end of our oral history, the person who is facilitating usually asks the rest of the team members [if they have questions], because sometimes some issues might come up that we didn't get a chance to [talk about] — would you object if I asked our space historians if they have a question or two for you?

[User] Okay.\n\n Carol

[Assistant] I have a couple of questions, actually. Early on, you mentioned that during the space program you were 98 percent focused on your job. I was curious as to how much you were aware of situations in the country around you as you were going about your daily job—so much was going on in the ‘60s—and whether that impacted you at all.

[User] I was certainly aware of the traumas that the country was experiencing at that time, and I believed that those problems were ones with which I was poorly equipped to contribute. They were outside my experience, outside my training, and I've always believed that however attractive it might be to get into areas that are interesting, you shouldn't do it if you're not qualified.

[Assistant] The other question that I wanted to follow up on was that you had mentioned that you were involved for a short time in the Apollo 13 investigation before you went to D.C.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.\n\n Carol

[Assistant] I have a couple of questions, actually. Early on, you mentioned that during the space program you were 98 percent focused on your job. I was curious as to how much you were aware of situations in the country around you as you were going about your daily job—so much was going on in the ‘60s—and whether that impacted you at all.

[User] I was certainly aware of the traumas that the country was experiencing at that time, and I believed that those problems were ones with which I was poorly equipped to contribute. They were outside my experience, outside my training, and I've always believed that however attractive it might be to get into areas that are interesting, you shouldn't do it if you're not qualified.

[Assistant] The other question that I wanted to follow up on was that you had mentioned that you were involved for a short time in the Apollo 13 investigation before you went to D.C.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So I wanted to follow up and ask, first, while the mission was going on, if you had any involvement during those efforts, and then what your specific role was in that investigation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was certainly aware of the traumas that the country was experiencing at that time, and I believed that those problems were ones with which I was poorly equipped to contribute. They were outside my experience, outside my training, and I've always believed that however attractive it might be to get into areas that are interesting, you shouldn't do it if you're not qualified.

[Assistant] The other question that I wanted to follow up on was that you had mentioned that you were involved for a short time in the Apollo 13 investigation before you went to D.C.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So I wanted to follow up and ask, first, while the mission was going on, if you had any involvement during those efforts, and then what your specific role was in that investigation.

[User] I think everybody that was here was involved, not just crew members, but there were people all over the center that were involved in many ways. I was involved in simulator work and in several different things that we were trying to do, alignments and burns and things that were outside our experience base in the past. There were a lot of people doing that.\n\n I'm reminded of the Apollo 13 movie, which I thought was an exceptionally good movie. I thought in all the essential elements of that flight and its aftermath … were accurate. They did take literary license, and appropriately so, because there's no way an audience can follow as many people as we had working on the problem. You have to cut it down to some ten or fifteen people so that the audience can remember who's doing what. I thought that they did a good job of that. But each of those one individuals who was doing something in the movie was probably really fifteen people doing that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] And after the accident, then, what was your involvement in the investigation as to what happened and what were some of those findings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So I wanted to follow up and ask, first, while the mission was going on, if you had any involvement during those efforts, and then what your specific role was in that investigation.

[User] I think everybody that was here was involved, not just crew members, but there were people all over the center that were involved in many ways. I was involved in simulator work and in several different things that we were trying to do, alignments and burns and things that were outside our experience base in the past. There were a lot of people doing that.\n\n I'm reminded of the Apollo 13 movie, which I thought was an exceptionally good movie. I thought in all the essential elements of that flight and its aftermath … were accurate. They did take literary license, and appropriately so, because there's no way an audience can follow as many people as we had working on the problem. You have to cut it down to some ten or fifteen people so that the audience can remember who's doing what. I thought that they did a good job of that. But each of those one individuals who was doing something in the movie was probably really fifteen people doing that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] And after the accident, then, what was your involvement in the investigation as to what happened and what were some of those findings?

[User] As I said, in the middle of that investigation I got transferred out to Washington and no longer participated in the day-to-day activities of that commission. But they had good people, and they did come up with the answers.

[Assistant] And had quite a successful rest of the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think everybody that was here was involved, not just crew members, but there were people all over the center that were involved in many ways. I was involved in simulator work and in several different things that we were trying to do, alignments and burns and things that were outside our experience base in the past. There were a lot of people doing that.\n\n I'm reminded of the Apollo 13 movie, which I thought was an exceptionally good movie. I thought in all the essential elements of that flight and its aftermath … were accurate. They did take literary license, and appropriately so, because there's no way an audience can follow as many people as we had working on the problem. You have to cut it down to some ten or fifteen people so that the audience can remember who's doing what. I thought that they did a good job of that. But each of those one individuals who was doing something in the movie was probably really fifteen people doing that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] And after the accident, then, what was your involvement in the investigation as to what happened and what were some of those findings?

[User] As I said, in the middle of that investigation I got transferred out to Washington and no longer participated in the day-to-day activities of that commission. But they had good people, and they did come up with the answers.

[Assistant] And had quite a successful rest of the program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
That was all the questions I had. Thank you.\n\n Kevin

I had a couple, too. While we're talking about the investigation board, you gave us an overview of your involvement with the Challenger presidential commission, and one of the things that's been said about that is the Challenger investigation was very different than Apollo 1 because that was sort of an internal investigation—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I said, in the middle of that investigation I got transferred out to Washington and no longer participated in the day-to-day activities of that commission. But they had good people, and they did come up with the answers.

[Assistant] And had quite a successful rest of the program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
That was all the questions I had. Thank you.\n\n Kevin

I had a couple, too. While we're talking about the investigation board, you gave us an overview of your involvement with the Challenger presidential commission, and one of the things that's been said about that is the Challenger investigation was very different than Apollo 1 because that was sort of an internal investigation—

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] —and they kept the politics out of it. A lot of the NASA guys we've talked to said that was really a better way to do it than the way Challenger was handled. Could you give us your perspective, as someone who was around for both of those events?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
That was all the questions I had. Thank you.\n\n Kevin

I had a couple, too. While we're talking about the investigation board, you gave us an overview of your involvement with the Challenger presidential commission, and one of the things that's been said about that is the Challenger investigation was very different than Apollo 1 because that was sort of an internal investigation—

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] —and they kept the politics out of it. A lot of the NASA guys we've talked to said that was really a better way to do it than the way Challenger was handled. Could you give us your perspective, as someone who was around for both of those events?

[User] I agree with those gentlemen that it would have been preferable to do it internally, and I think it could have been done well. But the reality was that there was a national involvement. It was so striking. It was on the news. Everybody in the country saw that happen or at least saw the replay of it in the news that day, and the possibility of keeping it internal was remote. I'm happy that the commission took a diligent responsibility and acted, I think, in a responsible manner and did a credible job of spending a lot of money in finding out what happened, and it probably was well spent.

[Assistant] Well, during the course of the investigation, you probably had a good chance to see what NASA was like in the mid-1980s internally, how they were functioning. Can you compare that to the NASA you had left over a decade earlier, in the 1970s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were spring loaded to the suspicion position at that point. We recognized that right after landing, where you had to do thermal conditioning surrounding the craft, that it hadn't seen before with all that hot surface underneath it and cold on top, that there were going to be all kinds of conceivable difficulties with plumbing and valves and pressure systems, relief valves and so on. So we were ready to leave if we had to, and we were listening carefully to their instructions. But I can't remember the details of what we were thinking at that point in time.

[Assistant] Were you at least concerned enough that, "Yeah, we might actually have to abort"?

[User] We … were quite cognizant of the fact that we might have to do that, and we were prepared to do so, and we were going through all the procedures that would allow us to do so if we were required. But I think the problem was isolated in a reasonably short period of time, as I remember, and the pressure was off then to really start sweating out a takeoff.

[Assistant] As I said, I think the guys on the ground ended up a lot more nervous than you and Buzz did in the LM.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Once you got out of the LM and you're going down the ladder, you're in this environment that requires you to have a space suit. I mean, you've got to have this protective garment on to keep some internal pressure and protect you from micrometeoroids and heat and the cold of space, all of that. How did actually functioning in the suit compare to how you were trained for, and what were some of the difficulties in operating on the Moon in this, learning to walk around, pick up rocks, all of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We … were quite cognizant of the fact that we might have to do that, and we were prepared to do so, and we were going through all the procedures that would allow us to do so if we were required. But I think the problem was isolated in a reasonably short period of time, as I remember, and the pressure was off then to really start sweating out a takeoff.

[Assistant] As I said, I think the guys on the ground ended up a lot more nervous than you and Buzz did in the LM.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Once you got out of the LM and you're going down the ladder, you're in this environment that requires you to have a space suit. I mean, you've got to have this protective garment on to keep some internal pressure and protect you from micrometeoroids and heat and the cold of space, all of that. How did actually functioning in the suit compare to how you were trained for, and what were some of the difficulties in operating on the Moon in this, learning to walk around, pick up rocks, all of that?

[User] Everything was easier than expected. It was easier to walk. It was easier to maintain balance. We didn't have as much trouble with the temperatures inside the suit as we thought we might have. I can hardly say good enough things about the way the suit and the backpack, the so-called PLSS [portable life support system], operated, fully up to our expectations and better.

[Assistant] Had you had any input in the development of the suit, other than your usual training, that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Once you got out of the LM and you're going down the ladder, you're in this environment that requires you to have a space suit. I mean, you've got to have this protective garment on to keep some internal pressure and protect you from micrometeoroids and heat and the cold of space, all of that. How did actually functioning in the suit compare to how you were trained for, and what were some of the difficulties in operating on the Moon in this, learning to walk around, pick up rocks, all of that?

[User] Everything was easier than expected. It was easier to walk. It was easier to maintain balance. We didn't have as much trouble with the temperatures inside the suit as we thought we might have. I can hardly say good enough things about the way the suit and the backpack, the so-called PLSS [portable life support system], operated, fully up to our expectations and better.

[Assistant] Had you had any input in the development of the suit, other than your usual training, that sort of thing?

[User] Not so much in the development of the suit, no, but we had participated in a lot of testing and spent many, many, many hours inside our suits before flight, in the chamber and under vacuum and temperature and all kinds of conditions. So we felt pretty comfortable and confident that the suits were going to work okay.

[Assistant] And on all the flights, I don't think they had a single problem with any of the suits, at least that was mission-critical.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything was easier than expected. It was easier to walk. It was easier to maintain balance. We didn't have as much trouble with the temperatures inside the suit as we thought we might have. I can hardly say good enough things about the way the suit and the backpack, the so-called PLSS [portable life support system], operated, fully up to our expectations and better.

[Assistant] Had you had any input in the development of the suit, other than your usual training, that sort of thing?

[User] Not so much in the development of the suit, no, but we had participated in a lot of testing and spent many, many, many hours inside our suits before flight, in the chamber and under vacuum and temperature and all kinds of conditions. So we felt pretty comfortable and confident that the suits were going to work okay.

[Assistant] And on all the flights, I don't think they had a single problem with any of the suits, at least that was mission-critical.

[User] I'm not aware of any serious problem.

[Assistant] Just one final question for me. As our colleagues here pointed out earlier, you seem to take great pride in being an engineer. So I was wondering, through your career as an astronaut, how much time did you find to actually be able to do engineering types of things, to get your hands or your mind around these engineering sorts of problems that you would be facing, either as a flight crew member or in some other technical assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not so much in the development of the suit, no, but we had participated in a lot of testing and spent many, many, many hours inside our suits before flight, in the chamber and under vacuum and temperature and all kinds of conditions. So we felt pretty comfortable and confident that the suits were going to work okay.

[Assistant] And on all the flights, I don't think they had a single problem with any of the suits, at least that was mission-critical.

[User] I'm not aware of any serious problem.

[Assistant] Just one final question for me. As our colleagues here pointed out earlier, you seem to take great pride in being an engineer. So I was wondering, through your career as an astronaut, how much time did you find to actually be able to do engineering types of things, to get your hands or your mind around these engineering sorts of problems that you would be facing, either as a flight crew member or in some other technical assignment?

[User] I'd say throughout my seventeen years at NACA and NASA, a very large percentage of my time was involved in real engineering work throughout that entire time period. I found that other former engineers who had become senior managers at NASA still occasionally tried to be engineers now and then. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess a follow up to that just before we go on. Did you have much work with Max Faget and everyone over in Engineering and Development Directorate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not aware of any serious problem.

[Assistant] Just one final question for me. As our colleagues here pointed out earlier, you seem to take great pride in being an engineer. So I was wondering, through your career as an astronaut, how much time did you find to actually be able to do engineering types of things, to get your hands or your mind around these engineering sorts of problems that you would be facing, either as a flight crew member or in some other technical assignment?

[User] I'd say throughout my seventeen years at NACA and NASA, a very large percentage of my time was involved in real engineering work throughout that entire time period. I found that other former engineers who had become senior managers at NASA still occasionally tried to be engineers now and then. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess a follow up to that just before we go on. Did you have much work with Max Faget and everyone over in Engineering and Development Directorate?

[User] Some of the guys in the [astronaut] office had more work with that directorate than I did. My collateral responsibility usually was in the simulation and training area, so I spent more time with FCOD [Flight Crew Operations Division] than I did with Max's gang, but others spent a lot of time there.

[Assistant]
That was all I had. Thank you.\n\n

I have a couple. If I may ask you to reflect again on Gemini VIII, in history we find that Gemini VIII tends to be overshadowed by later things, the Gemini program as a whole even, but as we've talked to so many people, engineers and people that worked in mission control, I oftentimes ask them about the—they cite Gemini VIII as probably the closest call, overshadowing even Apollo 13.\n\n In light of what was accomplished in that mission, the docking, which was so important, and then the critical incident of the nearly fatal craft malfunction, yet the human element able to overcome that malfunction, what were the consequences of that for the Gemini program and later program and maybe the lessons learned from that important mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. Glad to be here.

[Assistant] Great. And we're just going to go ahead and get started with the questions the most, um, what I wanted to start with was what was your life like before joining the Peace Corps, which would have been before 1994?

[User] Well, I was one of the members of the older people in our group. We were in Group III in Ukraine. I was 48 when I went. I had been working in a community college as a program director, and those programs were then decentralized and I became an English teacher and that was OK with me because I had always enjoyed reading and thinking about grammar and things like that. But I also wanted an international experience and I then had the marketable skills because I had to retrain as an English teacher. And I was divorced at that time and my youngest son was just leaving high school. And so it was an opportune time. I had this window of opportunity where my parents were still alive who could help with the kids if need be. And the kids were sort of on launched. So it seemed as if it were an opportunity not to be ignored.

[Assistant] And one of the most common questions is why did you join the Peace Corps? I guess you had kind of said that you wanted an international experience. Can you elaborate a little more on why you decided to do the Peace Corps mind?

[User] I always wanted to do Peace Corps since I was little and JFK. Well, I wasn't so little when JFK came along, but he was an inspiration and I was itching to do it. But I got married instead. I had of other developmental tasks that took precedence. And by the time I was divorced and the kids were old enough, I just had another, not another. I had what I saw as this opportunity to do it.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was one of the members of the older people in our group. We were in Group III in Ukraine. I was 48 when I went. I had been working in a community college as a program director, and those programs were then decentralized and I became an English teacher and that was OK with me because I had always enjoyed reading and thinking about grammar and things like that. But I also wanted an international experience and I then had the marketable skills because I had to retrain as an English teacher. And I was divorced at that time and my youngest son was just leaving high school. And so it was an opportune time. I had this window of opportunity where my parents were still alive who could help with the kids if need be. And the kids were sort of on launched. So it seemed as if it were an opportunity not to be ignored.

[Assistant] And one of the most common questions is why did you join the Peace Corps? I guess you had kind of said that you wanted an international experience. Can you elaborate a little more on why you decided to do the Peace Corps mind?

[User] I always wanted to do Peace Corps since I was little and JFK. Well, I wasn't so little when JFK came along, but he was an inspiration and I was itching to do it. But I got married instead. I had of other developmental tasks that took precedence. And by the time I was divorced and the kids were old enough, I just had another, not another. I had what I saw as this opportunity to do it.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind?

[User] No, when I went you weren't able to really choose the country you wanted to. You could just give a general region. But I was good for anything.

[Assistant] What was the process like then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I always wanted to do Peace Corps since I was little and JFK. Well, I wasn't so little when JFK came along, but he was an inspiration and I was itching to do it. But I got married instead. I had of other developmental tasks that took precedence. And by the time I was divorced and the kids were old enough, I just had another, not another. I had what I saw as this opportunity to do it.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind?

[User] No, when I went you weren't able to really choose the country you wanted to. You could just give a general region. But I was good for anything.

[Assistant] What was the process like then?

[User] For application process? It was huge. It was enormous. We didn't have Internet particularly. And so it was all paper. It was enormous amount of paperwork and letters of reference, which I'm sure you still have to have. But anyway, it just seemed enormous. And let me see, what else do you mean about the process? I was interviewed. I completed the initial application. I was interviewed and I had the medical exam. And then I was accepted and I thought I was going to Yemen and I said, oh, that's good, because, you know, there aren't any amoebas or whatever in Yemen. They'd be all arid, you know, and then there was a civil war and no one went to Yemen anymore. So the recruiter called me and asked me if I'd be interested in the former Soviet Union. And I said yes. So off I went to Ukraine.

[Assistant] What did your friends and family think about your decision and how did you prepare?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, when I went you weren't able to really choose the country you wanted to. You could just give a general region. But I was good for anything.

[Assistant] What was the process like then?

[User] For application process? It was huge. It was enormous. We didn't have Internet particularly. And so it was all paper. It was enormous amount of paperwork and letters of reference, which I'm sure you still have to have. But anyway, it just seemed enormous. And let me see, what else do you mean about the process? I was interviewed. I completed the initial application. I was interviewed and I had the medical exam. And then I was accepted and I thought I was going to Yemen and I said, oh, that's good, because, you know, there aren't any amoebas or whatever in Yemen. They'd be all arid, you know, and then there was a civil war and no one went to Yemen anymore. So the recruiter called me and asked me if I'd be interested in the former Soviet Union. And I said yes. So off I went to Ukraine.

[Assistant] What did your friends and family think about your decision and how did you prepare?

[User] Oh, they were surprised. And my parents were worried. My friends were supportive, but they were sort of like, why are you doing this? Uh, yeah. My mother didn't want me to go. She thought I was going too far away, even though I as I said, I was 48 at that time. She was concerned about my safety. My dad was very supportive. My friends basically were my kids rolled their eyes and said, oh, do what you have to do, mom.

[Assistant] So, you know, what was the training like when you got to the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Because I know you came back three times. Can you talk a little bit about the three different experiences you had and the three tours you served in the Peace Corps?

[User] The first, the classic two and a half years to 27 months were in eastern Ukraine over where the war is in the war zone. It's very adjacent to the war zone. Now, that was in eastern Ukraine where people spoke mainly Russian. So my training was in Ukrainian, but my site placement people spoke Russian. So I had my, you know, changed over. And I was at that institute where I did these other things. The second time I came back was in 2013 because I really wanted to see how the country had changed because it was so very destitute and down on its heels in 1994.

[Assistant] So this was several years later, that would have been?

[User] ‘96 to 2013. So quite a difference.

[Assistant] Fifteen years or so.