[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. I mean, they, they had ways in which they measured it. A lot of it was based on Foreign Service test kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then, and then actually when, when we completed our, our service, you were again tested in terms.

[Assistant] Oh, at the end of the Peace Corps?

[User] Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. They, they wanted to know, you know, you know, as a way as, as to how well you progressed while you were there.

[Assistant] What else went on in training? Language was, clearly was an emphasis. You must have done that every day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. They, they wanted to know, you know, you know, as a way as, as to how well you progressed while you were there.

[Assistant] What else went on in training? Language was, clearly was an emphasis. You must have done that every day.

[User] Well languages, uh, then of course there were area studies. And so that you learn about the country you're going to. You learned about the area that you were going to and, you know, the history, cultures, ta da da da da da. And that they, and that they brought people into the training programs from the area. I mean, so that, for example, our Swahili teachers were from East Africa.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And that which, you know, they hired. A lot of our area studies people were also from East Africa or experts in, you know, in the field.

[Assistant] Was St. Clair Drake in your training program or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well languages, uh, then of course there were area studies. And so that you learn about the country you're going to. You learned about the area that you were going to and, you know, the history, cultures, ta da da da da da. And that they, and that they brought people into the training programs from the area. I mean, so that, for example, our Swahili teachers were from East Africa.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And that which, you know, they hired. A lot of our area studies people were also from East Africa or experts in, you know, in the field.

[Assistant] Was St. Clair Drake in your training program or not?

[User] Uh, I don't think he was. I don't recall. I don't recall.

[Assistant] He did Ghana program mostly. Okay. I was just. And were there people from the Land Settlement Ministry that came out to take part in the training or just?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that which, you know, they hired. A lot of our area studies people were also from East Africa or experts in, you know, in the field.

[Assistant] Was St. Clair Drake in your training program or not?

[User] Uh, I don't think he was. I don't recall. I don't recall.

[Assistant] He did Ghana program mostly. Okay. I was just. And were there people from the Land Settlement Ministry that came out to take part in the training or just?

[User] No. No, they did not.

[Assistant]
Was there anyone who had ever been a settlement officer who came?

No.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I don't think he was. I don't recall. I don't recall.

[Assistant] He did Ghana program mostly. Okay. I was just. And were there people from the Land Settlement Ministry that came out to take part in the training or just?

[User] No. No, they did not.

[Assistant]
Was there anyone who had ever been a settlement officer who came?

No.

[User]
All right.

However, having said that, I should say that after we got to Kenya, before we went out to our assignments, we spent two weeks at Kabete, which is this training center. And we interacted with all those kinds of people and gave us a better introduction into what was going on. I mean, we had, we had one person who was on the training staff that knew about, who knew about what was going on. And they, you know, they talked about it. But in terms of anyone coming from Kenya and everything else to just to talk about that, no, that happened after we got there. So we spent two weeks at, uh, at this training center.

[Assistant] But you also had some agricultural training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. We, not only, not only, we went up to the University of Wisconsin at Madison, where they had, where the University of Wisconsin has its agricultural school.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And we spent time up there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And everything else. So, yeah. So we saw cows before we went out to.

[Assistant] Even if they were American cows.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And everything else. So, yeah. So we saw cows before we went out to.

[Assistant] Even if they were American cows.

[User] But actually, actually though. The cows that they, that they were trying to encourage, you know, are based on Guernseys and different things like that. Because one of the things that, that we got involved in is that on these settlement schemes that you could only use AI to breed cows. And where I worked, if in fact that anyone brought a konyegi cow, and particularly if it was duma, a male that had not been castrated.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] You'd confiscate. Hey, we used to have cattle raids.

[Assistant] How did you take to the agricultural studies? I mean, it didn't quite square with your background, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You'd confiscate. Hey, we used to have cattle raids.

[Assistant] How did you take to the agricultural studies? I mean, it didn't quite square with your background, I mean.

[User] Well, you know, I didn't see it any different. You know, I've been one of these people who have been fortunate in that I've grown up in the concrete jungles of New York and everything else. And then in the, you know, the concrete areas of the Midwest of Cleveland and then have also spent time in small towns along the Ohio River where I had relatives. And that and if you have an open mind that, so I've had, you know, so I've had exposure to those kinds of things. So it wasn't, it wasn't like it was cultural shock to me. And even when I was out at Lincoln University, I mean, Lincoln University was on 252 acres and at one time had its own farm.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, our milk that we drank when I went there as a freshman was, you know, came from the farm.

[Assistant] Did the group begin to develop an esprit, a special spirit? But, you know, you were the first to go to Kenya. You were kind of a unique group, different than a lot of Peace Corps projects. Was there some sense of being special?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know that it was special.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I do think that we developed a, an esprit de corps.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that while, you know, today we don't see each other that often, we know where everybody is and that we, you know, we talk with people. And if you call somebody and you hadn't talked with them in ten years, your call gets returned and you pick up where you left off.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, I mention esprit particularly in relation to the selection process, because in training often that's where the sense of group comes out when.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I do think that we developed a, an esprit de corps.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that while, you know, today we don't see each other that often, we know where everybody is and that we, you know, we talk with people. And if you call somebody and you hadn't talked with them in ten years, your call gets returned and you pick up where you left off.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, I mention esprit particularly in relation to the selection process, because in training often that's where the sense of group comes out when.

[User] Well, in training I think, I think, I think that it did. I think we did develop a good group and I think that I think everyone sensed who was and who wasn't.

[Assistant] Was selection a tough process, I mean, was there much stress around it or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that while, you know, today we don't see each other that often, we know where everybody is and that we, you know, we talk with people. And if you call somebody and you hadn't talked with them in ten years, your call gets returned and you pick up where you left off.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, I mention esprit particularly in relation to the selection process, because in training often that's where the sense of group comes out when.

[User] Well, in training I think, I think, I think that it did. I think we did develop a good group and I think that I think everyone sensed who was and who wasn't.

[Assistant] Was selection a tough process, I mean, was there much stress around it or?

[User] I don't, I don't think so, because I think that most people, I think, sensed who was going to be selected out.

[Assistant] Okay. And a few were, weren't they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in training I think, I think, I think that it did. I think we did develop a good group and I think that I think everyone sensed who was and who wasn't.

[Assistant] Was selection a tough process, I mean, was there much stress around it or?

[User] I don't, I don't think so, because I think that most people, I think, sensed who was going to be selected out.

[Assistant] Okay. And a few were, weren't they?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And so there wasn't, the group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't, I don't think so, because I think that most people, I think, sensed who was going to be selected out.

[Assistant] Okay. And a few were, weren't they?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And so there wasn't, the group.

[User] And there were no surprises.

[Assistant] Okay. So the group didn't disagree and say, well, that guy ought to go or. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And so there wasn't, the group.

[User] And there were no surprises.

[Assistant] Okay. So the group didn't disagree and say, well, that guy ought to go or. Okay.

[User] I mean, even though everyone didn't have a clear sense. I'm probably the only one there that had a clear sense because I'd been at, I'd sat in selection groups and other groups and everything else at other college campuses and that. So I had a fairly clear sense, which I did not share with everyone. But I think that no one was really shocked at the ones who were selected out. And I think we, I think we lost three. I can't remember right now.

[Assistant] Okay. Training's over. Any break between finish of training and heading out? Did you get some leave or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there were no surprises.

[Assistant] Okay. So the group didn't disagree and say, well, that guy ought to go or. Okay.

[User] I mean, even though everyone didn't have a clear sense. I'm probably the only one there that had a clear sense because I'd been at, I'd sat in selection groups and other groups and everything else at other college campuses and that. So I had a fairly clear sense, which I did not share with everyone. But I think that no one was really shocked at the ones who were selected out. And I think we, I think we lost three. I can't remember right now.

[Assistant] Okay. Training's over. Any break between finish of training and heading out? Did you get some leave or?

[User] I think it was about a week.

[Assistant] Yeah. Came back home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was about a week.

[Assistant] Yeah. Came back home?

[User] Uh, I went, I went home and then up to New York and had a big party for the group. And my mother threw a big party for the group because she lived in New York. And one of our other volunteers, Phil Schaffer, I don't know if you remember Phil?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Phil had a party also because he lived in New York. And so before we took off and everything else.

[Assistant] Yeah. And did you come over as a charter group or was it regular commercial?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went, we went from New York to Spain on TWA. We had a layover in Spain.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In Madrid.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then I think it was Ethiopian Airlines that we then took over from there, stopped in, stopped in Athens and then on down.

[Assistant] You remember arriving in Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Madrid.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then I think it was Ethiopian Airlines that we then took over from there, stopped in, stopped in Athens and then on down.

[Assistant] You remember arriving in Nairobi?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the first couple of days like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I think it was Ethiopian Airlines that we then took over from there, stopped in, stopped in Athens and then on down.

[Assistant] You remember arriving in Nairobi?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the first couple of days like?

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] Any real surprises?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was the first couple of days like?

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] Any real surprises?

[User] Not really. We stayed at the YW-, YMCA. That's where we were put up.

[Assistant] You wanted to be at the YW but you didn't. Sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] Any real surprises?

[User] Not really. We stayed at the YW-, YMCA. That's where we were put up.

[Assistant] You wanted to be at the YW but you didn't. Sorry.

[User] And it was near the end of the year. And so, um. And I'll say there wasn't a lot of activity going on. And so we just sort of wandered around and we had some sessions and things like that. And then, and then like that following Monday we then went out to Kabete, which was where the training center was.

[Assistant] Was this Jomo Kenyatta College or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. We stayed at the YW-, YMCA. That's where we were put up.

[Assistant] You wanted to be at the YW but you didn't. Sorry.

[User] And it was near the end of the year. And so, um. And I'll say there wasn't a lot of activity going on. And so we just sort of wandered around and we had some sessions and things like that. And then, and then like that following Monday we then went out to Kabete, which was where the training center was.

[Assistant] Was this Jomo Kenyatta College or not?

[User] Well, at this time it was called, I don't know what it's called now, but it's Lower Kabete. It was Lower Kabete Training Center.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you recall interacting with Peace Corps staff? I mean, Peace Corps staff was there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was near the end of the year. And so, um. And I'll say there wasn't a lot of activity going on. And so we just sort of wandered around and we had some sessions and things like that. And then, and then like that following Monday we then went out to Kabete, which was where the training center was.

[Assistant] Was this Jomo Kenyatta College or not?

[User] Well, at this time it was called, I don't know what it's called now, but it's Lower Kabete. It was Lower Kabete Training Center.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you recall interacting with Peace Corps staff? I mean, Peace Corps staff was there.

[User] Oh, yeah. They came around and.

[Assistant] Was Quimby on board when you arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at this time it was called, I don't know what it's called now, but it's Lower Kabete. It was Lower Kabete Training Center.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you recall interacting with Peace Corps staff? I mean, Peace Corps staff was there.

[User] Oh, yeah. They came around and.

[Assistant] Was Quimby on board when you arrived?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or did he come later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. They came around and.

[Assistant] Was Quimby on board when you arrived?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or did he come later?

[User] No, Quimby was on board.

[Assistant] Yeah. Up to Kabete. Did you all immediately sort of corner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or did he come later?

[User] No, Quimby was on board.

[Assistant] Yeah. Up to Kabete. Did you all immediately sort of corner?

[User] Now, this is just my group. The teachers went on out to.

[Assistant] Yeah, no, no, no. Just your group. Did you find yourself cornering Kenyans and trying to speak Swahili to them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Quimby was on board.

[Assistant] Yeah. Up to Kabete. Did you all immediately sort of corner?

[User] Now, this is just my group. The teachers went on out to.

[Assistant] Yeah, no, no, no. Just your group. Did you find yourself cornering Kenyans and trying to speak Swahili to them?

[User] Uh, well, we'd try to speak Swahili whenever we could. But we spent two weeks at the training center and that we're sort of isolated except for staff and things and that. And most stuff was done in English. And we're trying to learn how to ride motorcycles and all kinds of stuff like that.

[Assistant] You were assigned motorcycles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, this is just my group. The teachers went on out to.

[Assistant] Yeah, no, no, no. Just your group. Did you find yourself cornering Kenyans and trying to speak Swahili to them?

[User] Uh, well, we'd try to speak Swahili whenever we could. But we spent two weeks at the training center and that we're sort of isolated except for staff and things and that. And most stuff was done in English. And we're trying to learn how to ride motorcycles and all kinds of stuff like that.

[Assistant] You were assigned motorcycles?

[User] Yeah, we had, we had piki pikis.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And then at what point did you, were you given your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, well, we'd try to speak Swahili whenever we could. But we spent two weeks at the training center and that we're sort of isolated except for staff and things and that. And most stuff was done in English. And we're trying to learn how to ride motorcycles and all kinds of stuff like that.

[Assistant] You were assigned motorcycles?

[User] Yeah, we had, we had piki pikis.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And then at what point did you, were you given your assignment?

[User] When we, just before we left the training center.

[Assistant] And what was the pattern of assignment, do you recall, particularly whether, you know, some people said, well, why the hell am I going here? Or how it broke down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had, we had piki pikis.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And then at what point did you, were you given your assignment?

[User] When we, just before we left the training center.

[Assistant] And what was the pattern of assignment, do you recall, particularly whether, you know, some people said, well, why the hell am I going here? Or how it broke down?

[User] Yeah, I mean, as I recall, we just took it as we, as we saw it. And we didn't ask as to why that I'm going here and someone else is going there. You know, we weren't always sure what the housing accommodations were going to be and stuff like that. And so it was, you know, we just went. You know, we just accepted what they told us for the most.

[Assistant] And the arrangement, as you understand it, is that you were working for the resettlement ministry, agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we, just before we left the training center.

[Assistant] And what was the pattern of assignment, do you recall, particularly whether, you know, some people said, well, why the hell am I going here? Or how it broke down?

[User] Yeah, I mean, as I recall, we just took it as we, as we saw it. And we didn't ask as to why that I'm going here and someone else is going there. You know, we weren't always sure what the housing accommodations were going to be and stuff like that. And so it was, you know, we just went. You know, we just accepted what they told us for the most.

[Assistant] And the arrangement, as you understand it, is that you were working for the resettlement ministry, agency?

[User] Correct. That's right.

[Assistant] But you were being paid by the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I mean, as I recall, we just took it as we, as we saw it. And we didn't ask as to why that I'm going here and someone else is going there. You know, we weren't always sure what the housing accommodations were going to be and stuff like that. And so it was, you know, we just went. You know, we just accepted what they told us for the most.

[Assistant] And the arrangement, as you understand it, is that you were working for the resettlement ministry, agency?

[User] Correct. That's right.

[Assistant] But you were being paid by the Peace Corps?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] A living allowance of whatever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. That's right.

[Assistant] But you were being paid by the Peace Corps?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] A living allowance of whatever.

[User] 800 shillings a month.

[Assistant] Okay. Plus a settling in allowance to get you going. Where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] A living allowance of whatever.

[User] 800 shillings a month.

[Assistant] Okay. Plus a settling in allowance to get you going. Where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned to a place called Lessos, which is about 200 miles north of Nairobi.

[Assistant] What's, physically what's the area like? Is it highlands or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 800 shillings a month.

[Assistant] Okay. Plus a settling in allowance to get you going. Where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned to a place called Lessos, which is about 200 miles north of Nairobi.

[Assistant] What's, physically what's the area like? Is it highlands or?

[User] It's in the highlands and it's all really farming and everything else up there. It's one of the, you know, agriculturally it's one of the richest areas and everything else.

[Assistant] Okay. Were you assigned alone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's in the highlands and it's all really farming and everything else up there. It's one of the, you know, agriculturally it's one of the richest areas and everything else.

[Assistant] Okay. Were you assigned alone?

[User] As a volunteer?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yes, but not alone in that there were other people. I worked with a European settlement officer who was already there.

[Assistant] Okay. And were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but not alone in that there were other people. I worked with a European settlement officer who was already there.

[Assistant] Okay. And were there.

[User] So I had, there were three of us. There was, the settlement officer in charge who was the European.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And then there was a, an African who was another settlement officer who was in charge of one of the other complexes, and I was assigned to the other. So there are three, there are three complexes. And we each, the three of us, we each had one. And there was one person in charge who was sort of the boss. And then, and we ran the office and did all the stuff that we, that we had to do.

[Assistant] What was the background of the European who was the settlement officer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then there was a, an African who was another settlement officer who was in charge of one of the other complexes, and I was assigned to the other. So there are three, there are three complexes. And we each, the three of us, we each had one. And there was one person in charge who was sort of the boss. And then, and we ran the office and did all the stuff that we, that we had to do.

[Assistant] What was the background of the European who was the settlement officer?

[User] Same as most of them, that they grew up as farmers and different things of that.

[Assistant] In Kenya?

[User] In Kenya.

[Assistant] And had stayed on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Same as most of them, that they grew up as farmers and different things of that.

[Assistant] In Kenya?

[User] In Kenya.

[Assistant] And had stayed on.

[User] Stayed on.

[Assistant] Okay. Were there any problems with that, do you recall, as you settled in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Stayed on.

[Assistant] Okay. Were there any problems with that, do you recall, as you settled in?

[User] Where I was, no.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] I didn't, I didn't have any problems.

[Assistant] Um, from the get-go did you have a clear sense of what it is you were supposed to be doing? I mean, what I mean, you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where I was, no.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] I didn't, I didn't have any problems.

[Assistant] Um, from the get-go did you have a clear sense of what it is you were supposed to be doing? I mean, what I mean, you.

[User] Not, not from, not from day one. No, I think that once I got there and I we began to talk and everything else and saw what was going on. Then at this particular place, it became a clearer sense of what we were going to do or going to try and do and that. And trying to figure out the best way in which you could do that.

[Assistant] What was the typical day like, I mean, during the first four or five months there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't, I didn't have any problems.

[Assistant] Um, from the get-go did you have a clear sense of what it is you were supposed to be doing? I mean, what I mean, you.

[User] Not, not from, not from day one. No, I think that once I got there and I we began to talk and everything else and saw what was going on. Then at this particular place, it became a clearer sense of what we were going to do or going to try and do and that. And trying to figure out the best way in which you could do that.

[Assistant] What was the typical day like, I mean, during the first four or five months there?

[User] Uh. Up in the morning, wondering whether or not that we'd have any hot water.

[Assistant] Well, let's back up. What were your living arrangements?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then, so I lived in this house and that was an old, you know, European house that, you know, built by brick and everything else.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It had running water, but the water came from outside and you had a 44 gallon drum and everything else. It wasn't your fancy dancy, you know, water reticulation scheme.

[Assistant] Yeah. Electricity?

[User] By generator. The refrigerator ran by paraffin.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did, uh, since the settlement officer invited you to move in with him, then there was a steward or somebody who took care of the meal preparation and the food shopping?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had running water, but the water came from outside and you had a 44 gallon drum and everything else. It wasn't your fancy dancy, you know, water reticulation scheme.

[Assistant] Yeah. Electricity?

[User] By generator. The refrigerator ran by paraffin.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did, uh, since the settlement officer invited you to move in with him, then there was a steward or somebody who took care of the meal preparation and the food shopping?

[User] Right, that's right.

[Assistant] And so you didn't have to worry about it. You didn't have to bother with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By generator. The refrigerator ran by paraffin.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did, uh, since the settlement officer invited you to move in with him, then there was a steward or somebody who took care of the meal preparation and the food shopping?

[User] Right, that's right.

[Assistant] And so you didn't have to worry about it. You didn't have to bother with that.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. You were lucky.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I understand, but. And the thing is, is that, you know, people can say what they want. But I felt those circumstances also made me a little bit more productive, because given that, you know, having to cut firewood, all this other stuff, I mean, there's no place you'd go buy it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And everything else that, you know, and that another thing is that you're helping someone with the job and everything else.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that I like to think that we paid above the minimum wage, you know, so to speak, in the area. Um.

[Assistant] So your living arrangements.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And everything else that, you know, and that another thing is that you're helping someone with the job and everything else.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that I like to think that we paid above the minimum wage, you know, so to speak, in the area. Um.

[Assistant] So your living arrangements.

[User] I mean, because I was, I was gone, you know, most of the day. You know, you know, we were out in the fields, you know, seeing that things are being plowed properly.

[Assistant] Now, did you, did you have a settlement office on your particular piece of the scheme? Was there, physically was there an office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was only one office. So all of us worked out of that one office.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And then and we had, we had a sort of a complex.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that there was also the office of the cooperative which we are working with, which is also one of my assignments, working with the cooperative for these, you know, for these farmers, because that all the, all the milk and cream was sold through the cooperative. The tea was done through the Kenya Tea Cooperative, all it, you know, all those kinds of things, you know. So they took up a lot of things.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you'd meet in the main office on any given day, and would you tend to head out to the fields to deal with it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then and we had, we had a sort of a complex.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that there was also the office of the cooperative which we are working with, which is also one of my assignments, working with the cooperative for these, you know, for these farmers, because that all the, all the milk and cream was sold through the cooperative. The tea was done through the Kenya Tea Cooperative, all it, you know, all those kinds of things, you know. So they took up a lot of things.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you'd meet in the main office on any given day, and would you tend to head out to the fields to deal with it?

[User] Right. Depending upon what the day was or things like that. There's always someone there to man the office because people might be coming in to make loan repayments or different things like that or to get a loan or, you know, or what have you, because all of them had lines of credit that they could borrow against to help further development of their plots and things like that.

[Assistant] Why wasn't your position being taken by a Kenyan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that there was also the office of the cooperative which we are working with, which is also one of my assignments, working with the cooperative for these, you know, for these farmers, because that all the, all the milk and cream was sold through the cooperative. The tea was done through the Kenya Tea Cooperative, all it, you know, all those kinds of things, you know. So they took up a lot of things.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you'd meet in the main office on any given day, and would you tend to head out to the fields to deal with it?

[User] Right. Depending upon what the day was or things like that. There's always someone there to man the office because people might be coming in to make loan repayments or different things like that or to get a loan or, you know, or what have you, because all of them had lines of credit that they could borrow against to help further development of their plots and things like that.

[Assistant] Why wasn't your position being taken by a Kenyan?

[User] Uh, there are probably a couple of reasons. One is that a lot of Kenyans were being trained to do a number of other things and that they also saw a chance for, quote unquote, good cheap labor.

[Assistant] Okay. The government of Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Depending upon what the day was or things like that. There's always someone there to man the office because people might be coming in to make loan repayments or different things like that or to get a loan or, you know, or what have you, because all of them had lines of credit that they could borrow against to help further development of their plots and things like that.

[Assistant] Why wasn't your position being taken by a Kenyan?

[User] Uh, there are probably a couple of reasons. One is that a lot of Kenyans were being trained to do a number of other things and that they also saw a chance for, quote unquote, good cheap labor.

[Assistant] Okay. The government of Kenya?

[User] Yeah. And that, uh, they knew it wasn't going to be a long- term thing, at least in this particular aspect. And that I think that they also thought by bringing in some Americans who are Peace Corps quote volunteers, that it would also reduce the number of the European settlers that they had to hire to do the jobs that they didn't have enough of their own people to fill.

[Assistant] Okay. The long-term concept of the resettlement program was that eventually the resettlement offices would disappear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, there are probably a couple of reasons. One is that a lot of Kenyans were being trained to do a number of other things and that they also saw a chance for, quote unquote, good cheap labor.

[Assistant] Okay. The government of Kenya?

[User] Yeah. And that, uh, they knew it wasn't going to be a long- term thing, at least in this particular aspect. And that I think that they also thought by bringing in some Americans who are Peace Corps quote volunteers, that it would also reduce the number of the European settlers that they had to hire to do the jobs that they didn't have enough of their own people to fill.

[Assistant] Okay. The long-term concept of the resettlement program was that eventually the resettlement offices would disappear.

[User] Basically.

[Assistant] The land would be in the hands of the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And that, uh, they knew it wasn't going to be a long- term thing, at least in this particular aspect. And that I think that they also thought by bringing in some Americans who are Peace Corps quote volunteers, that it would also reduce the number of the European settlers that they had to hire to do the jobs that they didn't have enough of their own people to fill.

[Assistant] Okay. The long-term concept of the resettlement program was that eventually the resettlement offices would disappear.

[User] Basically.

[Assistant] The land would be in the hands of the.

[User] And that basically has happened. That basically it's happened.

[Assistant] And the Kenyans and the co-ops would be fine. We were talking about why there wasn't a Kenyan. Were there Kenyans with whom you worked closely and what was their position? I mean, was it, were they lead farmers? Were they clerks of the co-op or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Basically.

[Assistant] The land would be in the hands of the.

[User] And that basically has happened. That basically it's happened.

[Assistant] And the Kenyans and the co-ops would be fine. We were talking about why there wasn't a Kenyan. Were there Kenyans with whom you worked closely and what was their position? I mean, was it, were they lead farmers? Were they clerks of the co-op or?

[User] Over my couple of years there that I went from a, um, settlement officer in charge who was married to an African woman, to a defrocked Kenya farmer who was a failure at farming but a wonderful person, to a Kenyan who was a settlement officer in charge. And that the co-op was always, you know, while I was always an advisor to it, that was always run by the, you know, the local people. And then of course we dealt with the chief and everything else and all the people. All of the agricultural veterinary staff except for the veterinarian were, you know, were Kenyan.

[Assistant] So it was really a considerable structure there that. So I'm a little confused as to what was, why, why were you needed, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, someone had to, needed someone to run these various schemes, so I had, you know, maybe a hundred and some odd farms. So I was responsible for working with those 100 farmers.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And being available to them, helping them do what they ought to be doing, encourage them to do what they ought to be doing.

[Assistant] Like what?

[User] Well, you know, using, using hybrid maize so that you get better yields and understand that, because it costs more. And those who are supposed to grow tea. Tea is very hard to grow. You don't get any return for about three years and then it's modest. And what, and it's hard work. And so because you got to keep it clean, you take care of it. And you put all this money in and they weren't and they didn't see anything coming back. But once it was okay, then you know, that tree if you took care of it, that tree bush was good for 75 years. So and it was trying to work in that.

[Assistant] Was the government sort of directing them or encouraging them to go into tea, to keep that product going in Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And being available to them, helping them do what they ought to be doing, encourage them to do what they ought to be doing.

[Assistant] Like what?

[User] Well, you know, using, using hybrid maize so that you get better yields and understand that, because it costs more. And those who are supposed to grow tea. Tea is very hard to grow. You don't get any return for about three years and then it's modest. And what, and it's hard work. And so because you got to keep it clean, you take care of it. And you put all this money in and they weren't and they didn't see anything coming back. But once it was okay, then you know, that tree if you took care of it, that tree bush was good for 75 years. So and it was trying to work in that.

[Assistant] Was the government sort of directing them or encouraging them to go into tea, to keep that product going in Kenya?

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, tea is a major product of Kenya.

[Assistant] But the farm, a farmer didn't necessarily choose?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would have to take out loans and things like that to get it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Now they got a lot of technical assistance that was free, but the, a lot of the actual stuff and then there would be a water bill.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And getting them to, to buy into that took a lot of work. And when I left that it had been, they had approved it. And that some of the work had begun for it, for it to happen.

[Assistant] Whose decision was it that it was a priority to have water, the water supply system developed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now they got a lot of technical assistance that was free, but the, a lot of the actual stuff and then there would be a water bill.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And getting them to, to buy into that took a lot of work. And when I left that it had been, they had approved it. And that some of the work had begun for it, for it to happen.

[Assistant] Whose decision was it that it was a priority to have water, the water supply system developed?

[User] I, I think that it was a combination, that some of it may have come from top down, but I think it also came from bottom up in the sense that, uh, people had to find water. That means they had to move their cattle to go different places where there was water and different things like that, because they didn't have water on their own land and things like that. So to have water on your own land made it easier for you to, one, feed your cattle, which they all, which they all did. Two, get water to, you know, for your, for your veggies and whatever else you did. It was also a way in which you might in the long run. [tape break]

[Assistant] Tape two. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I think that it was a combination, that some of it may have come from top down, but I think it also came from bottom up in the sense that, uh, people had to find water. That means they had to move their cattle to go different places where there was water and different things like that, because they didn't have water on their own land and things like that. So to have water on your own land made it easier for you to, one, feed your cattle, which they all, which they all did. Two, get water to, you know, for your, for your veggies and whatever else you did. It was also a way in which you might in the long run. [tape break]

[Assistant] Tape two. Okay.

[User] Mungu meaning, you know, God.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that, you know, for your, your maize and everything else that you need water. And so that if you, if there was a time when the rains weren't as good as they should be or you need it, then it might be ways you can develop by having water on your plot to water your, your maize and different things like that, feed your animals. Do your stuff.

[Assistant] In doing this community development, did you work much with traditional leaders within the tribal structure or the traditional structure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mungu meaning, you know, God.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that, you know, for your, your maize and everything else that you need water. And so that if you, if there was a time when the rains weren't as good as they should be or you need it, then it might be ways you can develop by having water on your plot to water your, your maize and different things like that, feed your animals. Do your stuff.

[Assistant] In doing this community development, did you work much with traditional leaders within the tribal structure or the traditional structure?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything we did was with the, uh, the traditional leaders.

[Assistant] And the particular group with which you were working were what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that, you know, for your, your maize and everything else that you need water. And so that if you, if there was a time when the rains weren't as good as they should be or you need it, then it might be ways you can develop by having water on your plot to water your, your maize and different things like that, feed your animals. Do your stuff.

[Assistant] In doing this community development, did you work much with traditional leaders within the tribal structure or the traditional structure?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything we did was with the, uh, the traditional leaders.

[Assistant] And the particular group with which you were working were what?

[User] Nandi.

[Assistant] Nandi. And as of '64, when you were there, there was still, uh, it was independent and there were other governmental structures that had. There was still a strong traditional division and, oh, interconnection or whatever you want to call it. Did that still exist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything we did was with the, uh, the traditional leaders.

[Assistant] And the particular group with which you were working were what?

[User] Nandi.

[Assistant] Nandi. And as of '64, when you were there, there was still, uh, it was independent and there were other governmental structures that had. There was still a strong traditional division and, oh, interconnection or whatever you want to call it. Did that still exist?

[User] Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, you had to deal with the traditional leaders, the chiefs, and all the rest of them. I mean, that was, or else you couldn't get anything done. And that if you want to do anything that involved all the farmers, that if the chairman of the cooperative wasn't convinced that it was a good thing, then you had problems.

[Assistant] Were you also, did you begin to teach yourself the Nandi language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nandi.

[Assistant] Nandi. And as of '64, when you were there, there was still, uh, it was independent and there were other governmental structures that had. There was still a strong traditional division and, oh, interconnection or whatever you want to call it. Did that still exist?

[User] Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, you had to deal with the traditional leaders, the chiefs, and all the rest of them. I mean, that was, or else you couldn't get anything done. And that if you want to do anything that involved all the farmers, that if the chairman of the cooperative wasn't convinced that it was a good thing, then you had problems.

[Assistant] Were you also, did you begin to teach yourself the Nandi language?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Just on your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, you had to deal with the traditional leaders, the chiefs, and all the rest of them. I mean, that was, or else you couldn't get anything done. And that if you want to do anything that involved all the farmers, that if the chairman of the cooperative wasn't convinced that it was a good thing, then you had problems.

[Assistant] Were you also, did you begin to teach yourself the Nandi language?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Just on your own?

[User] Well. Well, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you listen and you pick up things. I've, I've always been fairly good with languages and, you know, I didn't sit down with anyone and say, well, you know, sometimes I did, you know, certain kinds of things. And because it was funny, because a lot of times.

[Assistant] Your old Latin background.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Just on your own?

[User] Well. Well, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you listen and you pick up things. I've, I've always been fairly good with languages and, you know, I didn't sit down with anyone and say, well, you know, sometimes I did, you know, certain kinds of things. And because it was funny, because a lot of times.

[Assistant] Your old Latin background.

[User] A lot of times it was that I'd be in a meeting with the co-op and with the board and that they were all speaking Kinande. And I listened for a while and everything else, and then pretty soon I would interject and say, you know, can you speak in Swahili, you know? And, you know, over a period of time, you know, they can still speak in Kinande and I knew what they're talking about. I knew exactly what they were saying. But most, and I think they did too, knew that I knew.

[Assistant] So very little of your business was conducted in English. Most of the farmers and co-op people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well. Well, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you listen and you pick up things. I've, I've always been fairly good with languages and, you know, I didn't sit down with anyone and say, well, you know, sometimes I did, you know, certain kinds of things. And because it was funny, because a lot of times.

[Assistant] Your old Latin background.

[User] A lot of times it was that I'd be in a meeting with the co-op and with the board and that they were all speaking Kinande. And I listened for a while and everything else, and then pretty soon I would interject and say, you know, can you speak in Swahili, you know? And, you know, over a period of time, you know, they can still speak in Kinande and I knew what they're talking about. I knew exactly what they were saying. But most, and I think they did too, knew that I knew.

[Assistant] So very little of your business was conducted in English. Most of the farmers and co-op people.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] Weren't likely to get into an English conversation with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of times it was that I'd be in a meeting with the co-op and with the board and that they were all speaking Kinande. And I listened for a while and everything else, and then pretty soon I would interject and say, you know, can you speak in Swahili, you know? And, you know, over a period of time, you know, they can still speak in Kinande and I knew what they're talking about. I knew exactly what they were saying. But most, and I think they did too, knew that I knew.

[Assistant] So very little of your business was conducted in English. Most of the farmers and co-op people.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] Weren't likely to get into an English conversation with you.

[User] That's, that's correct. Right. The only, there were some who did, and that's because they wanted to use English or learn their English because they, they, particularly some of the staff, the veterinary staff, the agricultural staff. And, you know, they'd gone to maybe a training course or something like that and then got their job and that if they could. And maybe finished the maybe eighth grade or something like that. And if they could improve their English, they thought that I was going to help them improve themselves in terms of. So, yeah, they would want to, a lot of times they would want to speak in English.

[Assistant] And most of them lived up on the scheme also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] Weren't likely to get into an English conversation with you.

[User] That's, that's correct. Right. The only, there were some who did, and that's because they wanted to use English or learn their English because they, they, particularly some of the staff, the veterinary staff, the agricultural staff. And, you know, they'd gone to maybe a training course or something like that and then got their job and that if they could. And maybe finished the maybe eighth grade or something like that. And if they could improve their English, they thought that I was going to help them improve themselves in terms of. So, yeah, they would want to, a lot of times they would want to speak in English.

[Assistant] And most of them lived up on the scheme also?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there a nearby city, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's, that's correct. Right. The only, there were some who did, and that's because they wanted to use English or learn their English because they, they, particularly some of the staff, the veterinary staff, the agricultural staff. And, you know, they'd gone to maybe a training course or something like that and then got their job and that if they could. And maybe finished the maybe eighth grade or something like that. And if they could improve their English, they thought that I was going to help them improve themselves in terms of. So, yeah, they would want to, a lot of times they would want to speak in English.

[Assistant] And most of them lived up on the scheme also?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there a nearby city, I mean?

[User] Well, the closest city to us was Eldoret.

[Assistant] Okay. And did you go in to Eldoret very often?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there a nearby city, I mean?

[User] Well, the closest city to us was Eldoret.

[Assistant] Okay. And did you go in to Eldoret very often?

[User] Several times a month.

[Assistant] Shopping, recreation, just?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the closest city to us was Eldoret.

[Assistant] Okay. And did you go in to Eldoret very often?

[User] Several times a month.

[Assistant] Shopping, recreation, just?

[User] Uh, usually it was probably for shopping. Occasionally you went in there because usually the lawyer from the co-op would pick up the mail and then bring it out. And so when I went in, it would probably be for shopping or for some official business or something like that. Therefore, I could take my Land Rover or my motorbike, motorcycle.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah, yeah. Did you, did you? The Land Rover was, belonged to the settlement scheme.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Several times a month.

[Assistant] Shopping, recreation, just?

[User] Uh, usually it was probably for shopping. Occasionally you went in there because usually the lawyer from the co-op would pick up the mail and then bring it out. And so when I went in, it would probably be for shopping or for some official business or something like that. Therefore, I could take my Land Rover or my motorbike, motorcycle.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah, yeah. Did you, did you? The Land Rover was, belonged to the settlement scheme.

[User] Right. And the motorcycle belonged to the settlement scheme. Had a GK.

[Assistant] But Peace Corps had arranged to have that assigned to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And the motorcycle belonged to the settlement scheme. Had a GK.

[Assistant] But Peace Corps had arranged to have that assigned to you?

[User] Yes. And every volunteer in settlement was allowed, I think, 200 miles a month. Which they had to pay for.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] For private use.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. During your first year, was there a point when you sort of sat back and said, oh my God, I'm here, I'm doing this? I mean, was the, did you have a sense that it was happening? Did it change during the first year? It was tough at the beginning, easier, or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For private use.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. During your first year, was there a point when you sort of sat back and said, oh my God, I'm here, I'm doing this? I mean, was the, did you have a sense that it was happening? Did it change during the first year? It was tough at the beginning, easier, or?

[User] Uh. Actually, it was great the whole time. I didn't, I didn't really have any major problems. Uh, the. Sometimes the moving. I lived in three different places, not to different locations, but three different sites on the settlement scheme. And that, that was bad. And particularly the last, the last couple of months that I was, that I was there. Just simply because it was more of a personal situation as opposed to. I was living with another volunteer and that.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And that, um.

[Assistant] Someone from the second group of settlement people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh. Actually, it was great the whole time. I didn't, I didn't really have any major problems. Uh, the. Sometimes the moving. I lived in three different places, not to different locations, but three different sites on the settlement scheme. And that, that was bad. And particularly the last, the last couple of months that I was, that I was there. Just simply because it was more of a personal situation as opposed to. I was living with another volunteer and that.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And that, um.

[Assistant] Someone from the second group of settlement people?

[User] I think it was, I think he might have been in the third group.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that, um.

[Assistant] Someone from the second group of settlement people?

[User] I think it was, I think he might have been in the third group.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.

[User] And actually he was, he was going to be the one that was going to be the technician on the water stuff and everything else after we put all this other stuff together.

[Assistant] And you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was, I think he might have been in the third group.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah.

[User] And actually he was, he was going to be the one that was going to be the technician on the water stuff and everything else after we put all this other stuff together.

[Assistant] And you were.

[User] Well, and I got put out the house that I was in before because we got a new settlement officer in charge and he wanted the whole house. So we had moved. I had to move up to this other one and then this guy came and, you know, but it wasn't, you know, made the adjustment and.

[Assistant] You didn't have much choice, I mean, it was expected that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And actually he was, he was going to be the one that was going to be the technician on the water stuff and everything else after we put all this other stuff together.

[Assistant] And you were.

[User] Well, and I got put out the house that I was in before because we got a new settlement officer in charge and he wanted the whole house. So we had moved. I had to move up to this other one and then this guy came and, you know, but it wasn't, you know, made the adjustment and.

[Assistant] You didn't have much choice, I mean, it was expected that.

[User] I didn't have a choice. But I mean, it was fine. I mean, you know, one of the things that I, I had learned is that, you know, you adjust with what happens. So it wasn't no big deal.

[Assistant] Did, did the group meet at different points during your service? Were there conferences or get-togethers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, and I got put out the house that I was in before because we got a new settlement officer in charge and he wanted the whole house. So we had moved. I had to move up to this other one and then this guy came and, you know, but it wasn't, you know, made the adjustment and.

[Assistant] You didn't have much choice, I mean, it was expected that.

[User] I didn't have a choice. But I mean, it was fine. I mean, you know, one of the things that I, I had learned is that, you know, you adjust with what happens. So it wasn't no big deal.

[Assistant] Did, did the group meet at different points during your service? Were there conferences or get-togethers?

[User] There were, um. We had parties.

[Assistant] Well, of course. I mean Peace Corps sanctioned conferences.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were, um. We had parties.

[Assistant] Well, of course. I mean Peace Corps sanctioned conferences.

[User] I think there were only, as I recall, I think there may have been only one during our, my tenure that was Peace Corps called, where we had to be.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Until the end. Yeah, pretty much we were on, pretty much we were on our own. All the other meetings we went to were basically business meetings or that when we got people together or we decided we were going to meet in Nakuru or Nairobi or.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with Peace Corps staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not, not really.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, you know, if we needed them, we talked to them, but, you know, they came out and visit. I mean, you know. You know, Tom, you know, came out to, to see me this one time.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, uh. Actually, I think that was about it.

[Assistant] Probably the doctor, because he liked to travel. Campbell, was that his name? The hunter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, you know, if we needed them, we talked to them, but, you know, they came out and visit. I mean, you know. You know, Tom, you know, came out to, to see me this one time.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, uh. Actually, I think that was about it.

[Assistant] Probably the doctor, because he liked to travel. Campbell, was that his name? The hunter.

[User] Campbell?

[Assistant] Well, I could. Speaking of that, generally speaking, how was your health?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I did not have any problems while I was there, even though it was, I was six months into the thing and found out that, uh, that our cook was using the water from the tap, which was not purified, to make ice.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because this ice was only used for booze, I guess that destroyed it so I never got sick.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And no, I didn't, I did not have any health problems whatsoever.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Did you get a major break between first and second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because this ice was only used for booze, I guess that destroyed it so I never got sick.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And no, I didn't, I did not have any health problems whatsoever.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Did you get a major break between first and second year?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No, no travel outside Kenya or even inside?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then and then through Tanzania down to Victoria Falls. Had a difficult time getting into, um, Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, because we had no diplomatic, uh. This was during the time that we didn't have any diplomatic relations with them. We finally got across, stopped in, um, we couldn't find a hotel to stay in. There were three of us. Two Blacks, two whites, and that, um, and so we couldn't find a hotel that we could stay in in Southern Rhodesia right across Victoria Falls. So we traveled on. We found one of these hostels or, you know, roadside hotels. And we went in, we slept there. And in the middle of the night, the police came.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we had to leave. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Let me.

[User] And so we had to, uh, go out and we wound up sleeping on the side of the road. And the professor that we were riding with, he slept in the car. We had this Volkswagen, but it wasn't a van. It was his, one of those station wagons.

[Assistant] Yeah, little things. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we had to leave. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Let me.

[User] And so we had to, uh, go out and we wound up sleeping on the side of the road. And the professor that we were riding with, he slept in the car. We had this Volkswagen, but it wasn't a van. It was his, one of those station wagons.

[Assistant] Yeah, little things. Yeah.

[User]
And so then we got up the next morning and we went to Bulawayo where we had to get petrol because that was very limited. And then we kept on down to Harare. And we said, okay, now what are we going to do? And decided that we'd stop at the first hotel and that one of us would go in and, and I. And so I went in and said, I'm looking for a hotel where we can stay. And they said, you found one. And so we then checked into this hotel and spent some time and then we left. I couldn't go to South Africa at the time because you had to send the picture and everything else, they wouldn't let us in.

So we'd left this professor who was from San Jose State who was traveling and he was all education, he was all this stuff. And so that my buddy and I, we then were going on to Malawi and, um, and we thought we were going to take the bus to see the scenic route and everything else. They wouldn't let us go because going back to what I told you about in, um, when I was in college and about this conference. Well, I found out, and I didn't realize it was still in play, but I was persona non grata in all Portuguese territories because I was the one whose name was on all the correspondence and all the communications and things like that for this and with the Portuguese. So I, I could not, I could not go. So we just flew to Malawi from, from Harare and then we took a bus up there and.

[Assistant] Quite a circuit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we had to, uh, go out and we wound up sleeping on the side of the road. And the professor that we were riding with, he slept in the car. We had this Volkswagen, but it wasn't a van. It was his, one of those station wagons.

[Assistant] Yeah, little things. Yeah.

[User]
And so then we got up the next morning and we went to Bulawayo where we had to get petrol because that was very limited. And then we kept on down to Harare. And we said, okay, now what are we going to do? And decided that we'd stop at the first hotel and that one of us would go in and, and I. And so I went in and said, I'm looking for a hotel where we can stay. And they said, you found one. And so we then checked into this hotel and spent some time and then we left. I couldn't go to South Africa at the time because you had to send the picture and everything else, they wouldn't let us in.

So we'd left this professor who was from San Jose State who was traveling and he was all education, he was all this stuff. And so that my buddy and I, we then were going on to Malawi and, um, and we thought we were going to take the bus to see the scenic route and everything else. They wouldn't let us go because going back to what I told you about in, um, when I was in college and about this conference. Well, I found out, and I didn't realize it was still in play, but I was persona non grata in all Portuguese territories because I was the one whose name was on all the correspondence and all the communications and things like that for this and with the Portuguese. So I, I could not, I could not go. So we just flew to Malawi from, from Harare and then we took a bus up there and.

[Assistant] Quite a circuit.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But now this was after you were done as a volunteer or just?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And so then we got up the next morning and we went to Bulawayo where we had to get petrol because that was very limited. And then we kept on down to Harare. And we said, okay, now what are we going to do? And decided that we'd stop at the first hotel and that one of us would go in and, and I. And so I went in and said, I'm looking for a hotel where we can stay. And they said, you found one. And so we then checked into this hotel and spent some time and then we left. I couldn't go to South Africa at the time because you had to send the picture and everything else, they wouldn't let us in.

So we'd left this professor who was from San Jose State who was traveling and he was all education, he was all this stuff. And so that my buddy and I, we then were going on to Malawi and, um, and we thought we were going to take the bus to see the scenic route and everything else. They wouldn't let us go because going back to what I told you about in, um, when I was in college and about this conference. Well, I found out, and I didn't realize it was still in play, but I was persona non grata in all Portuguese territories because I was the one whose name was on all the correspondence and all the communications and things like that for this and with the Portuguese. So I, I could not, I could not go. So we just flew to Malawi from, from Harare and then we took a bus up there and.

[Assistant] Quite a circuit.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But now this was after you were done as a volunteer or just?

[User] Just before I finished. We did it that summer. Did it that summer. Because I had all that time that I hadn't used.

[Assistant] Yeah. Two things. Do you have much impression or much contact with the group of Peace Corps teachers that came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But now this was after you were done as a volunteer or just?

[User] Just before I finished. We did it that summer. Did it that summer. Because I had all that time that I hadn't used.

[Assistant] Yeah. Two things. Do you have much impression or much contact with the group of Peace Corps teachers that came?

[User] What do you mean by contact?

[Assistant] I mean. Well, generalized, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What do you mean by contact?

[Assistant] I mean. Well, generalized, I mean.

[User] Yeah, no, I knew a large part of the, of the teachers, stayed in contact with them. There were some that were close to me in proximity. We'd visit. I'd have them to my settlement scheme. I'd visit them at their schools.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that, you know, there are some I'm still in touch with it at this, at this point. So that there was that communication.

[Assistant] As two years comes to an end, or as it's coming to an end, what kind of evaluation do you make of yourself and of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I think that the, the groundwork that was laid really made a difference.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I guess I sort of say that because, one, I know most of them worked their butts off. Now, we had a couple that were sort of, a couple of them had to go home and things like that for other kinds of problems. But for the most part that they worked their butts off trying to do a good job and everything else. And I, I've seen the fruits of some of those labors. Um, well, I clearly cannot take credit for what happened at Lessos. But right now, every farm does have water. I mean, that project did get completed.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that many of them have full running water in their homes and everything else on there. The place is, is, uh, they have their own post office now. They, you know, there most of the roads are paved. I mean, we, we put in roads that were more than everything else. The bridges are probably about the same. I mean, I don't think they've changed that much. They put a few more logs in there or something like that.

[Assistant] But you've been back through the years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I guess I sort of say that because, one, I know most of them worked their butts off. Now, we had a couple that were sort of, a couple of them had to go home and things like that for other kinds of problems. But for the most part that they worked their butts off trying to do a good job and everything else. And I, I've seen the fruits of some of those labors. Um, well, I clearly cannot take credit for what happened at Lessos. But right now, every farm does have water. I mean, that project did get completed.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that many of them have full running water in their homes and everything else on there. The place is, is, uh, they have their own post office now. They, you know, there most of the roads are paved. I mean, we, we put in roads that were more than everything else. The bridges are probably about the same. I mean, I don't think they've changed that much. They put a few more logs in there or something like that.

[Assistant] But you've been back through the years?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Made a few trips. Do you have any idea how many Peace Corps settlement projects followed yours? You mentioned a group three.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that many of them have full running water in their homes and everything else on there. The place is, is, uh, they have their own post office now. They, you know, there most of the roads are paved. I mean, we, we put in roads that were more than everything else. The bridges are probably about the same. I mean, I don't think they've changed that much. They put a few more logs in there or something like that.

[Assistant] But you've been back through the years?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Made a few trips. Do you have any idea how many Peace Corps settlement projects followed yours? You mentioned a group three.

[User] Actually, we were the only one who did what we did.

[Assistant] The across the board kind of settlement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, we were the only one who did what we did.

[Assistant] The across the board kind of settlement?

[User] Right. Everybody else that came over after us who got involved in settlements or something like that were primarily cooperatives or technical people working with the water and different things like that. But who did what we did? I think we were about the only group.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we may have been the cause of that.

[Assistant] Your success or your failure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we may have been the cause of that.

[Assistant] Your success or your failure?

[User] Well, there are some papers.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That were written, uh, that were not appreciated.

[Assistant] Oh. This is new to me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the Peace Corps what we thought about settlement and everything else. And, and I guess that, I don't know what everyone else wrote, but I know what Tom Giddings and I wrote.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And Tom and I were fairly close to each other. He was in Ainabkoi. I was at Lessos and about 30 miles as the crow flies. And we were asked to do this paper on settlement. And what we pointed out, it was sort of like a, a management kind of paper that said what changes had to be made if settlement was going to work, you know. And we hit on some very bad notes, like, you know, people don't need to take tea breaks 40 times a day and have folk running around and that the records need to be, you know, made, made whole. I mean, I can remember times that I would go down to Nairobi armed with books to go through their records to get them clarified because, I mean, they were dunning people for this and saying people are doing this and things were not paid and we'd send all the stuff down there and it didn't, it didn't get in there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so, you know, we just raised a lot of hell about stuff like that. And, uh, and so when they asked us to write, that's what we wrote. That's what we told them, told them what it was.

[Assistant] But someone took it to heart, I mean, either they were offended or they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Tom and I were fairly close to each other. He was in Ainabkoi. I was at Lessos and about 30 miles as the crow flies. And we were asked to do this paper on settlement. And what we pointed out, it was sort of like a, a management kind of paper that said what changes had to be made if settlement was going to work, you know. And we hit on some very bad notes, like, you know, people don't need to take tea breaks 40 times a day and have folk running around and that the records need to be, you know, made, made whole. I mean, I can remember times that I would go down to Nairobi armed with books to go through their records to get them clarified because, I mean, they were dunning people for this and saying people are doing this and things were not paid and we'd send all the stuff down there and it didn't, it didn't get in there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so, you know, we just raised a lot of hell about stuff like that. And, uh, and so when they asked us to write, that's what we wrote. That's what we told them, told them what it was.

[Assistant] But someone took it to heart, I mean, either they were offended or they?

[User] They were offended, but that we would write that.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. But did Peace Corps make the adjustments, saying that in fact there's truth in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, you know, we just raised a lot of hell about stuff like that. And, uh, and so when they asked us to write, that's what we wrote. That's what we told them, told them what it was.

[Assistant] But someone took it to heart, I mean, either they were offended or they?

[User] They were offended, but that we would write that.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. But did Peace Corps make the adjustments, saying that in fact there's truth in that?

[User] No, Peace Corps. Peace Corps didn't really support that at all, I mean, because they were, they were catching hell. They didn't want, they didn't want the program to, you know.

[Assistant] [inaudible] directed by them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, you know, they were thinking, you know, could you have said it a different way? I said, well, it's the only way I know how to say it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. But we knew how to say it, and it was, you know, and Tom and I, you know, worked on it. And I think I still have a copy of the paper and I look at it now, it's so benign. I said, if I wrote that today.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, it certainly wouldn't sound like this. But they, they really did take offense at it, at what we wrote.

[Assistant] But Peace Corps, obviously, in the long run, didn't hold it against you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But we knew how to say it, and it was, you know, and Tom and I, you know, worked on it. And I think I still have a copy of the paper and I look at it now, it's so benign. I said, if I wrote that today.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, it certainly wouldn't sound like this. But they, they really did take offense at it, at what we wrote.

[Assistant] But Peace Corps, obviously, in the long run, didn't hold it against you.

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] Tom went on to a Peace Corps career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, it certainly wouldn't sound like this. But they, they really did take offense at it, at what we wrote.

[Assistant] But Peace Corps, obviously, in the long run, didn't hold it against you.

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] Tom went on to a Peace Corps career.

[User] Uh, yeah, he was.

[Assistant] Yeah, he was in Ghana with me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] Tom went on to a Peace Corps career.

[User] Uh, yeah, he was.

[Assistant] Yeah, he was in Ghana with me.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, you know Tom died.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, yeah, he was.

[Assistant] Yeah, he was in Ghana with me.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, you know Tom died.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah, that I know.

[Assistant] And, um, what about you? Two years. It's been incredible, I gather. And you must have begun forming plans for a future. I assume you decided you didn't want to stay on beyond the whatever the tour was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I. I had some other plans, and I did not. And I think most of other plans I never followed through with because I got waylaid.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because actually, I planned to go back to Washington, maybe work for Peace Corps, Peace Corps Washington, or do some other stuff. But then a friend of mine was running for mayor in the city of Cleveland and had lost in a prior year, prior election, and by a slim margin and was going to run again. And when I went back home, a lot of my friends were going to be involved in the campaign and everything else. So I decided that I would stay in Cleveland at the time, work to help get Carl Stokes elected the first Black mayor of the United States of a major city.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And that's what I did. And so that and that led to a lot of other kinds of things, but never minimized my involvement in either international affairs or the affairs of the Peace Corps, which I have been actively involved until today.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Did you, did you go on for further study at some point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that the Cleveland foundation and unbeknownst to me, they offered me a job. I said, well, and I said, I'm not expecting, I wasn't expecting this. And I said, I have to let you know that when I leave here, I'm going over to City Hall to meet with the mayor and that. And they said, well, you know, I don't know what he's going to do. And I said, you know, I'm not sure either and what's really going to be offered. It's, I know it's going to be a high level appointment.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they said, well, the only thing is we're not going to get into a bidding war. That's it. And so when that happened, then I took about two weeks to decide. And I decided to go with the foundation because I figured that that would be better for me going to law school because I was going at night.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That didn't happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they said, well, the only thing is we're not going to get into a bidding war. That's it. And so when that happened, then I took about two weeks to decide. And I decided to go with the foundation because I figured that that would be better for me going to law school because I was going at night.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That didn't happen.

[User] Not working for that foundation. I spent my time traveling a lot and involved a lot of activities, and I probably would have been better off going to the city. And so I just, one of, one of, one of them had to give, had to give. And I gave up, I gave up the law school. I never.

[Assistant] When did you go back to Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That didn't happen.

[User] Not working for that foundation. I spent my time traveling a lot and involved a lot of activities, and I probably would have been better off going to the city. And so I just, one of, one of, one of them had to give, had to give. And I gave up, I gave up the law school. I never.

[Assistant] When did you go back to Kenya?

[User] The first time was probably in early seventies, and the last time was about '92.

[Assistant] And was it on business, this trip in the seventies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not working for that foundation. I spent my time traveling a lot and involved a lot of activities, and I probably would have been better off going to the city. And so I just, one of, one of, one of them had to give, had to give. And I gave up, I gave up the law school. I never.

[Assistant] When did you go back to Kenya?

[User] The first time was probably in early seventies, and the last time was about '92.

[Assistant] And was it on business, this trip in the seventies?

[User] I always traveled on business.

[Assistant] Okay, good. Did you get a chance to go back up to the settlement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first time was probably in early seventies, and the last time was about '92.

[Assistant] And was it on business, this trip in the seventies?

[User] I always traveled on business.

[Assistant] Okay, good. Did you get a chance to go back up to the settlement?

[User] I'd been up there about four times.

[Assistant] What was your first reaction or their reaction? Did anyone remember you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd been up there about four times.

[Assistant] What was your first reaction or their reaction? Did anyone remember you?

[User] Yes. Walked into the post office and the first person I see.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Is one of the former staff who had a farm there. And we went back to his home and had tea and sat and talked about things. And of course, he tried to get me to help him find some money for some of the country, United States, to go to school, you know.

[Assistant] Sounds familiar. I ask people, it's not always easy to answer. What do you think was the effect of having joined the Peace Corps on your life, your career, and what have you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I. It reinforced for me the kinds of things that I wanted to do in life. And then secondly, that it also gave me an opportunity, particularly at the time in which I did it, was to step back and look at the United States in a context in which it was, it would have been difficult for me to do here.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And that, and what this country was. And what I was in the country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it's a luxury that one doesn't often get. And as a Peace Corps volunteer, you can do that. I don't know that you could do it that well even if you're in the military and you are stationed abroad, because you're in a different mode. But there when you have these lonely nights, you're reading these books, you're writing all these letters. There's no one else around you. And you begin to think about things, um, and, and you try and put them in perspective. Then it makes you realize certain kinds of things that you may not have otherwise. At least to the, to a, or you can take them to a different level. And I think that that's what, that's what happened.

[Assistant] I don't know if you can respond to this, but did you have a, a special awareness or insight into the fact that you were a Black American serving in the Peace Corps? I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's a luxury that one doesn't often get. And as a Peace Corps volunteer, you can do that. I don't know that you could do it that well even if you're in the military and you are stationed abroad, because you're in a different mode. But there when you have these lonely nights, you're reading these books, you're writing all these letters. There's no one else around you. And you begin to think about things, um, and, and you try and put them in perspective. Then it makes you realize certain kinds of things that you may not have otherwise. At least to the, to a, or you can take them to a different level. And I think that that's what, that's what happened.

[Assistant] I don't know if you can respond to this, but did you have a, a special awareness or insight into the fact that you were a Black American serving in the Peace Corps? I mean.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And part of it is also because of my experiences prior to that.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And part of it is also because of my experiences prior to that.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[User] You know, whether I was recruiting someone, going out and everything else.

[Assistant] Or echoing the discussion with Williams, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they didn't know who we were. So they came to us. And so after we had this talk that, no, we, you know. No, it wasn't a race card, it was an American card that we pulled.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that, um, and so we. And so it turned out we got up, got dressed, and we went back to the pub with the police and had a drink.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And kind of, but it was, that was, that was one scary moment that, at that moment.

[Assistant] And coming back did you feel that you had, I mean certainly there was more than enough civil rights activity both before and after '64, '65. Did you feel that you had missed out or that you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, not at all. Um. I wasn't gone long enough to, to really have missed out and because I'd been involved before.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And then certainly, given the way things were, there was still a lot to do.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] So that. No, not, not at all. Not at all. And in fact, as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons that I went back to Cleveland, which I had not planned to at that time, to work specifically in Carl Stokes' campaign.

[Assistant] One last question. Would, would you recommend that a young person today, 19, 20, 21, that they join the Peace Corps? If someone came to you and said, wow, you were in once.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then certainly, given the way things were, there was still a lot to do.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] So that. No, not, not at all. Not at all. And in fact, as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons that I went back to Cleveland, which I had not planned to at that time, to work specifically in Carl Stokes' campaign.

[Assistant] One last question. Would, would you recommend that a young person today, 19, 20, 21, that they join the Peace Corps? If someone came to you and said, wow, you were in once.

[User] I do it every day that I can.

[Assistant] What, why, and what argument do you use or what point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that while you may start out thinking you're going to save the world and help a lot of people, the real, the real deal is that you have not helped a whole lot and you're not going to make that much of a difference at this point, maybe in the long term like so many other things. But for you, it can mean a big difference in terms of how the rest of your life is going to be.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And that it's that kind of, of, it's, Peace Corps can be an intervention in your life that can make a difference which will help you make a greater difference I think later on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's, and I guess one of the examples is that at the conference in, um, of NPCA in June, the guest speaker or one of the main speakers is going to be the president of Peru. And the only reason that he is doing this is because, as you probably know, that he was taught by Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] In fact, I interviewed both of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that it's that kind of, of, it's, Peace Corps can be an intervention in your life that can make a difference which will help you make a greater difference I think later on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's, and I guess one of the examples is that at the conference in, um, of NPCA in June, the guest speaker or one of the main speakers is going to be the president of Peru. And the only reason that he is doing this is because, as you probably know, that he was taught by Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] In fact, I interviewed both of them.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] I interviewed both of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll tell you what. I opened the drawer one time and there were artworks and I went through them and there was one signed by Ben Shahn who I recognized as a relatively prominent American artist. I took it out and drew it to people's attention and I thought that was all very cool. I also—I'm the person who found in the Abbey Row—I believe—that RG 79, also Park Service. There's a pretty well-known photo now of Richard Nixon and Elvis Presley. Nixon invited Presley to the White House for a conference on anti-drug—

[Assistant] Yes. You found that?

[User] Yeah, I'm the person who, who found it. The two of them look like vampires really. They're facing the camera and Presley has a cape on and it's just priceless. I unearthed it from the Abbey Row collection.

[Assistant] That's amazing. Is there anything else about Still Pictures because I understand you then moved to Public Programs.

[User] That opportunity arose because the head of the office had seen my slideshow and made me an offer. I had applied for a promotion in Still Pictures and someone else was selected. I was unhappy there. And so I just moved down to Public Programs. What I did there was I supported the Exhibit staff basically. I did slide shows that were part of Exhibits. I did sales items like a selection of postcards. I did an audiotape on World War II. Those are the ones that I remember. It was all using my Still Picture knowledge, my ability to do research in other records based on my experience as an archivist. And it worked out very nicely.

[Assistant] So, just to make sure I get the dates, you were in Still Pictures. I don't even think I asked you at the beginning. What year were you hired to be an archives technician for Still—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm the person who, who found it. The two of them look like vampires really. They're facing the camera and Presley has a cape on and it's just priceless. I unearthed it from the Abbey Row collection.

[Assistant] That's amazing. Is there anything else about Still Pictures because I understand you then moved to Public Programs.

[User] That opportunity arose because the head of the office had seen my slideshow and made me an offer. I had applied for a promotion in Still Pictures and someone else was selected. I was unhappy there. And so I just moved down to Public Programs. What I did there was I supported the Exhibit staff basically. I did slide shows that were part of Exhibits. I did sales items like a selection of postcards. I did an audiotape on World War II. Those are the ones that I remember. It was all using my Still Picture knowledge, my ability to do research in other records based on my experience as an archivist. And it worked out very nicely.

[Assistant] So, just to make sure I get the dates, you were in Still Pictures. I don't even think I asked you at the beginning. What year were you hired to be an archives technician for Still—

[User] Sixty eight. 1968. Same year as the riots.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. So you were downtown.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That opportunity arose because the head of the office had seen my slideshow and made me an offer. I had applied for a promotion in Still Pictures and someone else was selected. I was unhappy there. And so I just moved down to Public Programs. What I did there was I supported the Exhibit staff basically. I did slide shows that were part of Exhibits. I did sales items like a selection of postcards. I did an audiotape on World War II. Those are the ones that I remember. It was all using my Still Picture knowledge, my ability to do research in other records based on my experience as an archivist. And it worked out very nicely.

[Assistant] So, just to make sure I get the dates, you were in Still Pictures. I don't even think I asked you at the beginning. What year were you hired to be an archives technician for Still—

[User] Sixty eight. 1968. Same year as the riots.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. So you were downtown.

[User] It was quite a time. It was quite a time. Then I stayed in Still Pictures—let me think—after 1980—I'd say ‘81, ‘82 and then I went down to Public Programs. I was very happy about that. So that was the sequence.

[Assistant] Okay. In my understanding of NARA history, in the middle of your career at NARA, two big events happened in the eighties, RIFs and our transition to independence. Can you talk a little bit about the RIFs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sixty eight. 1968. Same year as the riots.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. So you were downtown.

[User] It was quite a time. It was quite a time. Then I stayed in Still Pictures—let me think—after 1980—I'd say ‘81, ‘82 and then I went down to Public Programs. I was very happy about that. So that was the sequence.

[Assistant] Okay. In my understanding of NARA history, in the middle of your career at NARA, two big events happened in the eighties, RIFs and our transition to independence. Can you talk a little bit about the RIFs?

[User] I had been down in Public Programs—I'm not sure—several years at least. I was wholly independent. Everybody else there was part of a staff. There was an Education staff. There was an Exhibit staff. And I was sort of solo. When they had to downsize, I was standing out like a sore thumb. They eliminated my job. It was a devastating thing. It was right at Christmas-time I remember. I didn't want to tell anybody. It was just terrible. I got through Christmas. I discovered or was told that I was going to bump—should I explain what bumping means?

[Assistant] I think so. Yeah.