[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I finally in 2010, I got unelected to city council and so I said, well, since I'm not going to have to do this anymore, which was kind of it's like, you know, I liked doing it. But whenever I lost the election, I went over with some buddies, like actually four of us on city council when they, the clean sweep. They got rid of all four of us at-large candidates and we all went over to the Stardust Ballroom and had a beer. And I said, now I'm feeling pretty good. So I got rid of, you know, I hated to lose, but it was, you know, it was time to go. And that's when I decided to go to Honduras.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] I finally got to one of my, uh, I always put in for the Caribbean, Central America, or South America. And I got Honduras.

[Assistant] You finally got it.

[User] I got it, I got one. Yeah, yeah. It was great. I worked in the mountains with, I call them kahalurales. It's a little, the little small villages would all get together and come up with a product of some kind to sell to make money for their organization in the city, the little towns.

[Assistant] It was kind of a co-op?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's kind of co-op, yeah. And I was working with Funder. Funder was an NGO that supported, uh, it was out of Spain.

[Assistant] F-U-N-D?

[User] F-U-N-D-E-R. And they were supporting the farmers and small villages. A lot of these small villages were like cooperative farmers. And they were working with peppers, the peppers they use in hot sauces from Louisiana. And were trying to get them to be exported. Quality wise, the quality wasn't quite as good as they needed in the Louisiana hot sauce.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] You know what, the hot sauce I'm talking about? The rich sauce.

[Assistant] The Tabasco sauce?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] F-U-N-D-E-R. And they were supporting the farmers and small villages. A lot of these small villages were like cooperative farmers. And they were working with peppers, the peppers they use in hot sauces from Louisiana. And were trying to get them to be exported. Quality wise, the quality wasn't quite as good as they needed in the Louisiana hot sauce.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] You know what, the hot sauce I'm talking about? The rich sauce.

[Assistant] The Tabasco sauce?

[User] Tabasco, tabasco peppers. They were also trying to improve the quality of the cocoa that they had down there. And they were trying to get it to the quality that they could get, sell it to the Swiss. So but. There's also. That was something they were working on, but they were also working with the different villages that were selling mostly tamales. And so I was doing a SWOT analysis with these small organizations. And we were also doing the four P's, product, price, place, and promotion, for them. And they, the women were, the interesting thing was the women were more driven to make a success than the guys were, than men were. And two or three of these kahalurales decided that since we were talking, what could you do with your, with what you have? How could you expand your product line? And they decided, well, maybe we could use the same material and make tamales, or yeah, tamales. No, they were making tamales. To make tacos and sell the tacos on the outside or in our little of influence around their village.

[Assistant] So they would be like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know what, the hot sauce I'm talking about? The rich sauce.

[Assistant] The Tabasco sauce?

[User] Tabasco, tabasco peppers. They were also trying to improve the quality of the cocoa that they had down there. And they were trying to get it to the quality that they could get, sell it to the Swiss. So but. There's also. That was something they were working on, but they were also working with the different villages that were selling mostly tamales. And so I was doing a SWOT analysis with these small organizations. And we were also doing the four P's, product, price, place, and promotion, for them. And they, the women were, the interesting thing was the women were more driven to make a success than the guys were, than men were. And two or three of these kahalurales decided that since we were talking, what could you do with your, with what you have? How could you expand your product line? And they decided, well, maybe we could use the same material and make tamales, or yeah, tamales. No, they were making tamales. To make tacos and sell the tacos on the outside or in our little of influence around their village.

[Assistant] So they would be like.

[User] So they expanded their product line. So I was pretty happy about that. I was kind of like, that was a nice success.

[Assistant] They would do like food carts, street sellers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tabasco, tabasco peppers. They were also trying to improve the quality of the cocoa that they had down there. And they were trying to get it to the quality that they could get, sell it to the Swiss. So but. There's also. That was something they were working on, but they were also working with the different villages that were selling mostly tamales. And so I was doing a SWOT analysis with these small organizations. And we were also doing the four P's, product, price, place, and promotion, for them. And they, the women were, the interesting thing was the women were more driven to make a success than the guys were, than men were. And two or three of these kahalurales decided that since we were talking, what could you do with your, with what you have? How could you expand your product line? And they decided, well, maybe we could use the same material and make tamales, or yeah, tamales. No, they were making tamales. To make tacos and sell the tacos on the outside or in our little of influence around their village.

[Assistant] So they would be like.

[User] So they expanded their product line. So I was pretty happy about that. I was kind of like, that was a nice success.

[Assistant] They would do like food carts, street sellers?

[User] Actually they would take them in trucks and they'd go down to the different markets in those little areas. And they'd set up and sell them there. Or they would take them to the little cafes that they supported too. There were small cafes, little fronts of houses that were where people would go in and buy their tamales. They were good, too. They always fed me. Well, really the cool thing was we were way up in the mountains. And the four-wheel drives would not go all the way up. We had to stop and they'd come down and pick us up on horses. So I got to ride horses up into the mountains.

[Assistant] Were you an experienced rider?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I'm good on a horse. It was kind of, it was cool. And we also worked with an HIV AIDS NGO in Puerto Cortes that was supporting the local HIV community. And there were. There were some really sad cases there, but they had a sewing factory and they were sewing, uh, gym equipment, gym, gym suits.

[Assistant] Athletic clothes?

[User] Athletic clothes for different high schools around.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] But they weren't making any money. They had priced themselves so low they couldn't, they weren't making any money. So I did the SWOT thing and the four P's with them, and they decided, well, we're going to, we need to raise our prices a little bit. Also their equipment was starting to run down. So I ran into an American from North Carolina who had a sewing factory in Puerto Cortes, and he sent his mechanic over and overhauled a couple of their machines for us so they were running better. They couldn't afford to get them fixed and he did it for nothing. So, yeah, that worked out good. I had a good time there. But we only lasted, we lasted a little over a year.

[Assistant] Oh, you didn't complete two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they weren't making any money. They had priced themselves so low they couldn't, they weren't making any money. So I did the SWOT thing and the four P's with them, and they decided, well, we're going to, we need to raise our prices a little bit. Also their equipment was starting to run down. So I ran into an American from North Carolina who had a sewing factory in Puerto Cortes, and he sent his mechanic over and overhauled a couple of their machines for us so they were running better. They couldn't afford to get them fixed and he did it for nothing. So, yeah, that worked out good. I had a good time there. But we only lasted, we lasted a little over a year.

[Assistant] Oh, you didn't complete two years?

[User] Oh, yeah, I did all I could because they took Peace Corps out. One of the girls, one of the ladies in Peace Corps, was on a bus and they robbed, some guys robbed it. It's a very dangerous country. Honduras is very dangerous. That's why they're coming up here.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they had a Old West shootout on the bus and she got shot in the leg. And after all, there were so many people getting robbed. There were Peace Corps volunteers getting robbed going from the little hotel that they put us up with in Tegucigalpa, the headquarters of Peace Corps. There were people getting assaulted just going up to the headquarters there from the hotels. So when that girl got shot, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and they pulled us all out. They closed it down and got us all over to a hotel on the coast. I can't remember the name of the town, but we were there. We closed out service and they put us on busses and flew us out of Tegucigalpa.

[Assistant] Wow, that's too bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I did all I could because they took Peace Corps out. One of the girls, one of the ladies in Peace Corps, was on a bus and they robbed, some guys robbed it. It's a very dangerous country. Honduras is very dangerous. That's why they're coming up here.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they had a Old West shootout on the bus and she got shot in the leg. And after all, there were so many people getting robbed. There were Peace Corps volunteers getting robbed going from the little hotel that they put us up with in Tegucigalpa, the headquarters of Peace Corps. There were people getting assaulted just going up to the headquarters there from the hotels. So when that girl got shot, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and they pulled us all out. They closed it down and got us all over to a hotel on the coast. I can't remember the name of the town, but we were there. We closed out service and they put us on busses and flew us out of Tegucigalpa.

[Assistant] Wow, that's too bad.

[User] And I really, I was sorry because I thought everything was going really good. And I was, I felt very safe. I was in this little town on the coast. And I never had any, any kind of problems. But anyway, I was lucky that way.

[Assistant] When you got to Honduras, they must have trained you in Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they had a Old West shootout on the bus and she got shot in the leg. And after all, there were so many people getting robbed. There were Peace Corps volunteers getting robbed going from the little hotel that they put us up with in Tegucigalpa, the headquarters of Peace Corps. There were people getting assaulted just going up to the headquarters there from the hotels. So when that girl got shot, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and they pulled us all out. They closed it down and got us all over to a hotel on the coast. I can't remember the name of the town, but we were there. We closed out service and they put us on busses and flew us out of Tegucigalpa.

[Assistant] Wow, that's too bad.

[User] And I really, I was sorry because I thought everything was going really good. And I was, I felt very safe. I was in this little town on the coast. And I never had any, any kind of problems. But anyway, I was lucky that way.

[Assistant] When you got to Honduras, they must have trained you in Spanish.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You had training there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I really, I was sorry because I thought everything was going really good. And I was, I felt very safe. I was in this little town on the coast. And I never had any, any kind of problems. But anyway, I was lucky that way.

[Assistant] When you got to Honduras, they must have trained you in Spanish.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You had training there?

[User] I had to take Spanish courses before. I was pretty good at Spanish.

[Assistant] Better than Russian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You had training there?

[User] I had to take Spanish courses before. I was pretty good at Spanish.

[Assistant] Better than Russian?

[User] Than I was in Russian, yeah.

[Assistant] But you went through the entire training. What was your training there in Honduras, three months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to take Spanish courses before. I was pretty good at Spanish.

[Assistant] Better than Russian?

[User] Than I was in Russian, yeah.

[Assistant] But you went through the entire training. What was your training there in Honduras, three months?

[User] Yeah, three months. I lived with the lady there. She was the widow of a doctor and she had a big house. And her, she had two kids. Two of her kids still lived with her and her mother lived with her. So it was a real nice setup. And then, uh.

[Assistant] So here again, during training they housed you with a local family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Than I was in Russian, yeah.

[Assistant] But you went through the entire training. What was your training there in Honduras, three months?

[User] Yeah, three months. I lived with the lady there. She was the widow of a doctor and she had a big house. And her, she had two kids. Two of her kids still lived with her and her mother lived with her. So it was a real nice setup. And then, uh.

[Assistant] So here again, during training they housed you with a local family?

[User] Yeah. And then that was the first. I think that was the first month. And then the second month was up in the mountains at a town that made Flor de Caña rum. And you could smell the factory was there in the city. And it was a cool town. So and we were there for about four weeks. Then they moved us back to the original town that we were in. So we finished up there at the original city.

[Assistant] What town did you live in while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, three months. I lived with the lady there. She was the widow of a doctor and she had a big house. And her, she had two kids. Two of her kids still lived with her and her mother lived with her. So it was a real nice setup. And then, uh.

[Assistant] So here again, during training they housed you with a local family?

[User] Yeah. And then that was the first. I think that was the first month. And then the second month was up in the mountains at a town that made Flor de Caña rum. And you could smell the factory was there in the city. And it was a cool town. So and we were there for about four weeks. Then they moved us back to the original town that we were in. So we finished up there at the original city.

[Assistant] What town did you live in while you were there?

[User] A little town called Omoa. O-M-O-A. It was on the Caribbean.

[Assistant] And that's a small town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then that was the first. I think that was the first month. And then the second month was up in the mountains at a town that made Flor de Caña rum. And you could smell the factory was there in the city. And it was a cool town. So and we were there for about four weeks. Then they moved us back to the original town that we were in. So we finished up there at the original city.

[Assistant] What town did you live in while you were there?

[User] A little town called Omoa. O-M-O-A. It was on the Caribbean.

[Assistant] And that's a small town?

[User] Yeah, probably 1,500 or 2,000. Small town.

[Assistant] And what was your living quarters like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little town called Omoa. O-M-O-A. It was on the Caribbean.

[Assistant] And that's a small town?

[User] Yeah, probably 1,500 or 2,000. Small town.

[Assistant] And what was your living quarters like?

[User] I had a house. I lived with a family there for a while. And then I got a little house. It was a great family. She had run for mayor. Her name was, actually they were of Italian descent. There were a lot of Italian descendants in Honduras. And her name was Sylvia Sosa. And her daughter is, her name is Sylvia Sosa too. And she's a television commentator. She just got that job here in the last couple of years. And her dad's name was Paulo. And Paulo was a great guy. He died, but I built a house on my spare time in his front yard for, uh, built a place for a business, that he would lease out to a businessperson.

[Assistant] So you helped him out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, probably 1,500 or 2,000. Small town.

[Assistant] And what was your living quarters like?

[User] I had a house. I lived with a family there for a while. And then I got a little house. It was a great family. She had run for mayor. Her name was, actually they were of Italian descent. There were a lot of Italian descendants in Honduras. And her name was Sylvia Sosa. And her daughter is, her name is Sylvia Sosa too. And she's a television commentator. She just got that job here in the last couple of years. And her dad's name was Paulo. And Paulo was a great guy. He died, but I built a house on my spare time in his front yard for, uh, built a place for a business, that he would lease out to a businessperson.

[Assistant] So you helped him out?

[User] I helped him out, yeah, because I got a background in, I can do a lot of different things. Carpentry is one of them. So yeah. So he and I built a house and, yeah, it took us about a month. I was there living with him for a month. And then I moved into the house and then, like I said, they shut us down, brought us home.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's too bad. I'll ask you the same question here as about Ukraine. Do you think that you had some impact on their impression of Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a house. I lived with a family there for a while. And then I got a little house. It was a great family. She had run for mayor. Her name was, actually they were of Italian descent. There were a lot of Italian descendants in Honduras. And her name was Sylvia Sosa. And her daughter is, her name is Sylvia Sosa too. And she's a television commentator. She just got that job here in the last couple of years. And her dad's name was Paulo. And Paulo was a great guy. He died, but I built a house on my spare time in his front yard for, uh, built a place for a business, that he would lease out to a businessperson.

[Assistant] So you helped him out?

[User] I helped him out, yeah, because I got a background in, I can do a lot of different things. Carpentry is one of them. So yeah. So he and I built a house and, yeah, it took us about a month. I was there living with him for a month. And then I moved into the house and then, like I said, they shut us down, brought us home.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's too bad. I'll ask you the same question here as about Ukraine. Do you think that you had some impact on their impression of Americans?

[User] Oh yeah, I think, they're still.

[Assistant] Were they pretty favorable to begin with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I think, they're still.

[Assistant] Were they pretty favorable to begin with?

[User] Yeah, actually, they were. The impression in Honduras was, where I was, was positive. And because we'd been down there, you know, the Contras and all that Sandinistas stuff. But yeah, they were positive. And we still stay in touch, so yeah. He liked my carpentry work, so a good impression.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And there were some guys, had a guy from Iran. There was a guy from Canada who had a tiki bar. Like I said, we were on the Caribbean. And I would go down there and have a drink every now and then with the other expats. A lot of expats hung out there and they were always sitting around talking about, man, this guy, these people are so blah, blah, blah, this is a terrible place, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, when are you guys going home? I ain't going home. So you like it a little bit better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We like it here.

[Assistant] Yeah. They just liked to criticize.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, actually, they were. The impression in Honduras was, where I was, was positive. And because we'd been down there, you know, the Contras and all that Sandinistas stuff. But yeah, they were positive. And we still stay in touch, so yeah. He liked my carpentry work, so a good impression.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And there were some guys, had a guy from Iran. There was a guy from Canada who had a tiki bar. Like I said, we were on the Caribbean. And I would go down there and have a drink every now and then with the other expats. A lot of expats hung out there and they were always sitting around talking about, man, this guy, these people are so blah, blah, blah, this is a terrible place, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, when are you guys going home? I ain't going home. So you like it a little bit better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We like it here.

[Assistant] Yeah. They just liked to criticize.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you've made lasting relationships in all these places?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there were some guys, had a guy from Iran. There was a guy from Canada who had a tiki bar. Like I said, we were on the Caribbean. And I would go down there and have a drink every now and then with the other expats. A lot of expats hung out there and they were always sitting around talking about, man, this guy, these people are so blah, blah, blah, this is a terrible place, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, when are you guys going home? I ain't going home. So you like it a little bit better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We like it here.

[Assistant] Yeah. They just liked to criticize.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you've made lasting relationships in all these places?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Do you still keep in touch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you've made lasting relationships in all these places?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Do you still keep in touch?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, it's kind of, it must have been hard to leave in the middle of your service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Do you still keep in touch?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, it's kind of, it must have been hard to leave in the middle of your service.

[User] I really, yeah, I really. I never felt threatened. And I know there were people who were threatened, so.

[Assistant] So that would have been some time in 2012 that you left there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, it's kind of, it must have been hard to leave in the middle of your service.

[User] I really, yeah, I really. I never felt threatened. And I know there were people who were threatened, so.

[Assistant] So that would have been some time in 2012 that you left there?

[User] Yeah, I left there the first part of 2012, I think was end of January, 1st of February, or something like that.

[Assistant] Came back home to Texas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really, yeah, I really. I never felt threatened. And I know there were people who were threatened, so.

[Assistant] So that would have been some time in 2012 that you left there?

[User] Yeah, I left there the first part of 2012, I think was end of January, 1st of February, or something like that.

[Assistant] Came back home to Texas?

[User] Came back to Texas. That's when I went to Madagascar in, uh.

[Assistant] OK, so it was only about a year later you went to Madagascar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I left there the first part of 2012, I think was end of January, 1st of February, or something like that.

[Assistant] Came back home to Texas?

[User] Came back to Texas. That's when I went to Madagascar in, uh.

[Assistant] OK, so it was only about a year later you went to Madagascar?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. So you're ready for another?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Came back to Texas. That's when I went to Madagascar in, uh.

[Assistant] OK, so it was only about a year later you went to Madagascar?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. So you're ready for another?

[User] Ready for another one. It was half, you know, I only had a half tour in Honduras. I was ready for another one. Then I went to Madagascar. I wasn't there very long. I, uh, I didn't get through PST [pre- service training]. I learned Malagasy, which is their language. And then I was living with a family. It was probably the most austere place I've ever lived. There was no running water, there was no electricity. But the people were fantastic. The family I lived with, they were really, really great. And I went out with a farmer. We were, like I said, it was food security there. So I went out with a farmer one day and I tripped and fell and busted my knee. And it's a rough country. You can't, if you can't walk, you can't get around.

[Assistant] You can't get around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. So you're ready for another?

[User] Ready for another one. It was half, you know, I only had a half tour in Honduras. I was ready for another one. Then I went to Madagascar. I wasn't there very long. I, uh, I didn't get through PST [pre- service training]. I learned Malagasy, which is their language. And then I was living with a family. It was probably the most austere place I've ever lived. There was no running water, there was no electricity. But the people were fantastic. The family I lived with, they were really, really great. And I went out with a farmer. We were, like I said, it was food security there. So I went out with a farmer one day and I tripped and fell and busted my knee. And it's a rough country. You can't, if you can't walk, you can't get around.

[Assistant] You can't get around.

[User] Yeah. So I got medevaced out of there, got my knee fixed. Knocked a big, the doctor said it was about the size, a piece of cartilage on my knee was about the size of a quarter that he got out there. And I tore my meniscus and I just had constant pain with it. So it was really constant pain flying back because it was like 36 hours on a plane with my knee being, so.

[Assistant] So how long were you there before that happened, a few months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ready for another one. It was half, you know, I only had a half tour in Honduras. I was ready for another one. Then I went to Madagascar. I wasn't there very long. I, uh, I didn't get through PST [pre- service training]. I learned Malagasy, which is their language. And then I was living with a family. It was probably the most austere place I've ever lived. There was no running water, there was no electricity. But the people were fantastic. The family I lived with, they were really, really great. And I went out with a farmer. We were, like I said, it was food security there. So I went out with a farmer one day and I tripped and fell and busted my knee. And it's a rough country. You can't, if you can't walk, you can't get around.

[Assistant] You can't get around.

[User] Yeah. So I got medevaced out of there, got my knee fixed. Knocked a big, the doctor said it was about the size, a piece of cartilage on my knee was about the size of a quarter that he got out there. And I tore my meniscus and I just had constant pain with it. So it was really constant pain flying back because it was like 36 hours on a plane with my knee being, so.

[Assistant] So how long were you there before that happened, a few months?

[User] I was there a couple of months, yeah.

[Assistant] Only a couple of months. Were you still in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So I got medevaced out of there, got my knee fixed. Knocked a big, the doctor said it was about the size, a piece of cartilage on my knee was about the size of a quarter that he got out there. And I tore my meniscus and I just had constant pain with it. So it was really constant pain flying back because it was like 36 hours on a plane with my knee being, so.

[Assistant] So how long were you there before that happened, a few months?

[User] I was there a couple of months, yeah.

[Assistant] Only a couple of months. Were you still in training?

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still in PST. And like I said, I was, after that I was, I thought, well, get my knee fixed. I got my knee fixed. It's good now. I still don't have any cartilage on my kneecap, but it just makes a grounding noise.

[Assistant] Oh, you're resilient. So what? What's Peace Corps thinking all this time here? Now that was your fourth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there a couple of months, yeah.

[Assistant] Only a couple of months. Were you still in training?

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still in PST. And like I said, I was, after that I was, I thought, well, get my knee fixed. I got my knee fixed. It's good now. I still don't have any cartilage on my kneecap, but it just makes a grounding noise.

[Assistant] Oh, you're resilient. So what? What's Peace Corps thinking all this time here? Now that was your fourth.

[User] I never had any.

[Assistant] And then you decided to do it again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still in PST. And like I said, I was, after that I was, I thought, well, get my knee fixed. I got my knee fixed. It's good now. I still don't have any cartilage on my kneecap, but it just makes a grounding noise.

[Assistant] Oh, you're resilient. So what? What's Peace Corps thinking all this time here? Now that was your fourth.

[User] I never had any.

[Assistant] And then you decided to do it again?

[User] I never. Yeah. The next time was a Response.

[Assistant] Oh, Peace Corps Response.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never had any.

[Assistant] And then you decided to do it again?

[User] I never. Yeah. The next time was a Response.

[Assistant] Oh, Peace Corps Response.

[User] I went Response in Georgia.

[Assistant] Oh OK, so that was a short term.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never. Yeah. The next time was a Response.

[Assistant] Oh, Peace Corps Response.

[User] I went Response in Georgia.

[Assistant] Oh OK, so that was a short term.

[User] Yeah, short term.

[Assistant] How many months was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, short term.

[Assistant] How many months was that?

[User] It was six, a little over six months. No PST.

[Assistant] Pre-service training?

[User] No PST.

[Assistant] Yeah, so with Peace Corps Response, do they do some kind of orientation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was six, a little over six months. No PST.

[Assistant] Pre-service training?

[User] No PST.

[Assistant] Yeah, so with Peace Corps Response, do they do some kind of orientation?

[User] Yeah, we had a three-day orientation.

[Assistant] Just three days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had a three-day orientation.

[Assistant] Just three days?

[User] So yeah, when I got there at the Peace Corps headquarters in Tbilisi, I had about a three day and then on Friday. So I got in on Monday. So I guess it was four days, and then we left on Friday and I went to Batumi.

[Assistant] Batumi?

[User] Batumi. And I worked with a organization that was focusing on motivating youth to get involved in the democratic process. So that was my job. I worked with them. I came up with leadership training and citizenship training and communications training for the organization We Sit. And we brought in different, from different parts of town, we'd bring in groups of people and train them on all the different programs that I had developed.

[Assistant] OK. So you developed those from scratch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. She was very good, very smart. Yeah. And I also worked with the disabled, or one of the, one of my. I had three counterparts. One of them was, she worked with disabled people. So I had a background. So I worked with her some too. Then I lived with a family there the whole time.

[Assistant] You did?

[User] And I'm part of their family. I've gone back to see them a couple of times.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they're always asking me, when are you coming back? We wait you, we wait you. I'll be there. I'll come back again.

[Assistant] And the language there, were you were able to use some of your Russian again, did you remember anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they're always asking me, when are you coming back? We wait you, we wait you. I'll be there. I'll come back again.

[Assistant] And the language there, were you were able to use some of your Russian again, did you remember anything?

[User] No, they spoke. Yeah, I spoke a little Russian to them, but very little. And like I said, I'd forgotten most of it. Had gone through the, I'd gone through the Spanish, so I was better at Spanish. And but the lady I lived with, every morning she would fix my breakfast. One of my, I had another two counterparts, the one I worked, the real one. Then my secondary counterpart was the son of the lady that I lived with.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And he had an English club and he also worked with democratic process in his area too. So I worked with him. And every morning she would come and she had fixed my breakfast and then she would always give me a small glass of Georgia wine. Everybody in Georgia makes great wine, so. And then she say, she's ask me how, in Georgian, how was my meal? And I'd say, what? I don't understand. And she'd say it a little bit louder. Then she'd say it a little bit louder, then she'd say a little bit louder. And finally we'd start laughing together. She knew I couldn't understand her and she couldn't get me.

[Assistant] And she didn't speak English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they spoke. Yeah, I spoke a little Russian to them, but very little. And like I said, I'd forgotten most of it. Had gone through the, I'd gone through the Spanish, so I was better at Spanish. And but the lady I lived with, every morning she would fix my breakfast. One of my, I had another two counterparts, the one I worked, the real one. Then my secondary counterpart was the son of the lady that I lived with.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And he had an English club and he also worked with democratic process in his area too. So I worked with him. And every morning she would come and she had fixed my breakfast and then she would always give me a small glass of Georgia wine. Everybody in Georgia makes great wine, so. And then she say, she's ask me how, in Georgian, how was my meal? And I'd say, what? I don't understand. And she'd say it a little bit louder. Then she'd say it a little bit louder, then she'd say a little bit louder. And finally we'd start laughing together. She knew I couldn't understand her and she couldn't get me.

[Assistant] And she didn't speak English?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No? Well, that must have made it tough.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he had an English club and he also worked with democratic process in his area too. So I worked with him. And every morning she would come and she had fixed my breakfast and then she would always give me a small glass of Georgia wine. Everybody in Georgia makes great wine, so. And then she say, she's ask me how, in Georgian, how was my meal? And I'd say, what? I don't understand. And she'd say it a little bit louder. Then she'd say it a little bit louder, then she'd say a little bit louder. And finally we'd start laughing together. She knew I couldn't understand her and she couldn't get me.

[Assistant] And she didn't speak English?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No? Well, that must have made it tough.

[User] She was great. No, we got along great. She was really a hoot. She was a funny lady. But she always did that every morning. She had, a little bit louder. A little bit louder. And then we'd start laughing together. Good cook. She was great. Yeah. And yeah, that was, I had a lot of fun there. It was right on the beach, right on the Black Sea. It was a tourist city. And the guy, one of the guys I became friends with was, uh, his name was Jim Bouley. I'm still part of his family too. So he was the, uh, he set up the performers that came to town.

[Assistant] Like a promoter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was great. No, we got along great. She was really a hoot. She was a funny lady. But she always did that every morning. She had, a little bit louder. A little bit louder. And then we'd start laughing together. Good cook. She was great. Yeah. And yeah, that was, I had a lot of fun there. It was right on the beach, right on the Black Sea. It was a tourist city. And the guy, one of the guys I became friends with was, uh, his name was Jim Bouley. I'm still part of his family too. So he was the, uh, he set up the performers that came to town.

[Assistant] Like a promoter?

[User] No, he worked for the city. They would set up like a concert. He would set up all the concerts in. And they brought in a lot of interesting people. One of them was really cool. He brought in this one group of Black dancers from Houston, and they were, they did rap and they also did African dancing. And so I went to all of them free. He said, come on, let's go. Come on, come on, and we'll go down. So he took me down to introduce me to these guys. And they were, so I knew a friend of mine. His daughter was an, danced in the African scene, in the African American scene in Houston, and her name was Rachel Eckeroff. And I asked them if they knew Rachel. And they said, yeah, yeah, we've danced with her. So it's a small world, man. I mean, the world is just, you know, you never know. You never know.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] It was, uh, it was very interesting. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you stayed there six months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he worked for the city. They would set up like a concert. He would set up all the concerts in. And they brought in a lot of interesting people. One of them was really cool. He brought in this one group of Black dancers from Houston, and they were, they did rap and they also did African dancing. And so I went to all of them free. He said, come on, let's go. Come on, come on, and we'll go down. So he took me down to introduce me to these guys. And they were, so I knew a friend of mine. His daughter was an, danced in the African scene, in the African American scene in Houston, and her name was Rachel Eckeroff. And I asked them if they knew Rachel. And they said, yeah, yeah, we've danced with her. So it's a small world, man. I mean, the world is just, you know, you never know. You never know.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] It was, uh, it was very interesting. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you stayed there six months?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And made some lasting friendships there. You're a friendly guy. And then you went to Armenia after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, uh, it was very interesting. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you stayed there six months?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And made some lasting friendships there. You're a friendly guy. And then you went to Armenia after that?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Again, Peace Corps Response?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Again, Peace Corps Response?

[User] No, no. Full two years.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] Yeah. We went in August of 2015 and we came back in September of 2017.

[Assistant] OK. And so tell me something about that. What was your training like there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So and she was a sweet, great lady. She had two little kids. Well, she had three kids. She had a boy that was 15, and she had a little girl that was four or five. And then a little boy that was two and a half, three years old. He was a wild man. That's why I named him Tsunami.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] Yeah. They got a big kick out of it. And then the little girl, her name was Clautev, and she was, she loved to dance. She would just dance around all the time. And so, yeah, we all got along great. Her husband made, Ciroch, he made vodka. And there were, let's see, there was Nvard and Avard, her mother in law, and Goggek, the grandfather, Ciroch, Davit, and little Goggek. That was a two and a half year old kid and then Tatev. Plus me, and one bathroom.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] It was. So I was being, luckily I was an early riser so I'd get up real early so I got to take care of my hygienic needs before everybody else woke up.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you got to stand in line, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They got a big kick out of it. And then the little girl, her name was Clautev, and she was, she loved to dance. She would just dance around all the time. And so, yeah, we all got along great. Her husband made, Ciroch, he made vodka. And there were, let's see, there was Nvard and Avard, her mother in law, and Goggek, the grandfather, Ciroch, Davit, and little Goggek. That was a two and a half year old kid and then Tatev. Plus me, and one bathroom.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] It was. So I was being, luckily I was an early riser so I'd get up real early so I got to take care of my hygienic needs before everybody else woke up.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you got to stand in line, huh?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this was during training that you lived with this family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. So I was being, luckily I was an early riser so I'd get up real early so I got to take care of my hygienic needs before everybody else woke up.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you got to stand in line, huh?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this was during training that you lived with this family?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And what town was, that was in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this was during training that you lived with this family?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And what town was, that was in?

[User] Azadaban.

[Assistant] Azadaban. And then language there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And what town was, that was in?

[User] Azadaban.

[Assistant] Azadaban. And then language there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you had to learn Armenian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Azadaban.

[Assistant] Azadaban. And then language there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you had to learn Armenian?

[User] Armenian.

[Assistant] Was it pretty intensive, three months' training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you had to learn Armenian?

[User] Armenian.

[Assistant] Was it pretty intensive, three months' training?

[User] Yeah. You know, I got, I got, I passed so I had survival language. You know, I never said I was. I could get where I was going and order food and find out where the bathroom was.

[Assistant] So in all these places, it was pretty common to find people who spoke English that could help you out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I left Azadaban, I went to, uh. I've been living under a great star that gives me great places to go. Like I said, I was in Kyiv. I was in Pokhara and Nepal and I was in Kyiv in Ukraine and I was in this little town Omoa, right on the beach in Honduras. Madagascar was another story, but I was up in the mountains without water or electricity. But it was great. And it was super anyway. And in Georgia, I was on, like I said, in Batumi, right in a tourist town. City. And then in Armenia, I was in a town called Dilijan, D-I-L-I-J-A-N. It was called the Swiss city of Armenia.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Up in the mountains, about a little over 5,000 feet. It was really a pretty little town.

[Assistant] Was it?

[User] And they were trying to turn it into the tourist center of Armenia. Not just a tourist center, they had already moved the Ukrainian [Armenian] bank there. So it was the economic center. They had brought in the UWC, the Universal World College, which is a prep school. There's about 15 of them around the world, backed by some billionaires. It was their beautiful college, beautiful campus, brand new, brand new campus. And then they were trying to make Dilijan the tourist center of Armenia. We worked on a lot of projects, but most of my success there was on secondary projects.

[Assistant] So even though this was a pretty well-developed place with a lot of resources, they still felt they had a need for Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They still do, yeah, economically. They are high unemployment. They need economic development for sure. They need economic development. Well-educated people, lots of potential. There in between Turkey, Azerbaijan. North of Iran and south of Georgia.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Landlocked. No resources to speak of, but highly intelligent, well-educated people. Everybody speaks at least two languages, mostly three.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] They speak Russian, Armenian, and either English, German, or French. And some of them speak all of them. I worked with a woman that spoke all three and fluently, and she had worked with the United Nations. So they do need economic development. But it was a great, it was a great tour. In fact, I met some really great people in the Peace Corps there too.

[Assistant] Were there quite a few volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Landlocked. No resources to speak of, but highly intelligent, well-educated people. Everybody speaks at least two languages, mostly three.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] They speak Russian, Armenian, and either English, German, or French. And some of them speak all of them. I worked with a woman that spoke all three and fluently, and she had worked with the United Nations. So they do need economic development. But it was a great, it was a great tour. In fact, I met some really great people in the Peace Corps there too.

[Assistant] Were there quite a few volunteers?

[User] We had 42 in our group, 42 every year.

[Assistant] Some in that same city that you were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They speak Russian, Armenian, and either English, German, or French. And some of them speak all of them. I worked with a woman that spoke all three and fluently, and she had worked with the United Nations. So they do need economic development. But it was a great, it was a great tour. In fact, I met some really great people in the Peace Corps there too.

[Assistant] Were there quite a few volunteers?

[User] We had 42 in our group, 42 every year.

[Assistant] Some in that same city that you were in?

[User] Yeah, there was. At the end, there were two besides me there. It's like 10,000 people.

[Assistant] And you lived in an apartment there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had 42 in our group, 42 every year.

[Assistant] Some in that same city that you were in?

[User] Yeah, there was. At the end, there were two besides me there. It's like 10,000 people.

[Assistant] And you lived in an apartment there?

[User] I lived with a family.

[Assistant] Oh, you lived with the family? For the entire two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there was. At the end, there were two besides me there. It's like 10,000 people.

[Assistant] And you lived in an apartment there?

[User] I lived with a family.

[Assistant] Oh, you lived with the family? For the entire two years?

[User] No, the whole time, that was more recently. I lived with Zoya and Goggek and they, she was great. She, you know, I gave her a little extra money. She washed my clothes. She had my breakfast ready every morning. She was a pretty funny lady. Great cook. And she was a nurse. She was also a great maker of vodka. So everybody in the neighborhood came to drink her vodka.

[Assistant] So drinking vodka was a pretty common thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived with a family.

[Assistant] Oh, you lived with the family? For the entire two years?

[User] No, the whole time, that was more recently. I lived with Zoya and Goggek and they, she was great. She, you know, I gave her a little extra money. She washed my clothes. She had my breakfast ready every morning. She was a pretty funny lady. Great cook. And she was a nurse. She was also a great maker of vodka. So everybody in the neighborhood came to drink her vodka.

[Assistant] So drinking vodka was a pretty common thing?

[User] All through Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia. Vodka is part of the lifestyle.

[Assistant] So you acquired a taste for vodka?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the whole time, that was more recently. I lived with Zoya and Goggek and they, she was great. She, you know, I gave her a little extra money. She washed my clothes. She had my breakfast ready every morning. She was a pretty funny lady. Great cook. And she was a nurse. She was also a great maker of vodka. So everybody in the neighborhood came to drink her vodka.

[Assistant] So drinking vodka was a pretty common thing?

[User] All through Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia. Vodka is part of the lifestyle.

[Assistant] So you acquired a taste for vodka?

[User] Yeah, you better get it. Now, they did make, Armenia does. Actually, this is a little interesting aside. Winston Churchill's favorite cognac, or not cognac, brandy, was Armenian brandy. And he preferred it over other brandies, and not that he wouldn't drink other brandies, but, you know, he was pretty good at drinking. But yeah, his favorite was Armenian brandy. And it's good.

[Assistant] So you were in community development there as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All through Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia. Vodka is part of the lifestyle.

[Assistant] So you acquired a taste for vodka?

[User] Yeah, you better get it. Now, they did make, Armenia does. Actually, this is a little interesting aside. Winston Churchill's favorite cognac, or not cognac, brandy, was Armenian brandy. And he preferred it over other brandies, and not that he wouldn't drink other brandies, but, you know, he was pretty good at drinking. But yeah, his favorite was Armenian brandy. And it's good.

[Assistant] So you were in community development there as well.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] And tell me about your job and what you did and who you worked with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he was fun. He is a great guy. Yeah. I still stay in touch with all the people over there. And also interesting, a little aside here. At the community center, they were interested in hooking up with a university in the United States for a cross-cultural training of their people, the students there in Dilijan. I happened to know some people in Huntsville, Texas, at Sam Houston State University, and I knew the Secretary to the President and several other people who are professors there. And I'd met them, they were part of the Democratic Club, so we were the small blue dot in the middle of this big red dot.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] Anyway, so I called Judy Tilly and asked her if she could connect us with somebody there at the university. So a funny thing happened. We connected with the education department who already had done some stuff in China at the same cross-cultural training. The dean of the School of Education, his assistant dean, was a Armenian who had migrated to the United States and worked there. So it turned out great. They still got it going.

[Assistant] Great, great.

[User] They're still going there.

[Assistant] So there's some lasting impact.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, so I called Judy Tilly and asked her if she could connect us with somebody there at the university. So a funny thing happened. We connected with the education department who already had done some stuff in China at the same cross-cultural training. The dean of the School of Education, his assistant dean, was a Armenian who had migrated to the United States and worked there. So it turned out great. They still got it going.

[Assistant] Great, great.

[User] They're still going there.

[Assistant] So there's some lasting impact.

[User] Believe me, I was just. I was just the middle guy that got him in touch with. I didn't have much to do with setting up the operation.

[Assistant] Still, it wouldn't have happened otherwise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're still going there.

[Assistant] So there's some lasting impact.

[User] Believe me, I was just. I was just the middle guy that got him in touch with. I didn't have much to do with setting up the operation.

[Assistant] Still, it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

[User] But, yeah, it turned out good. Yeah. And I think I have all the people over there. I think I've had a good impact on them. They liked me.

[Assistant] It sounds like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Believe me, I was just. I was just the middle guy that got him in touch with. I didn't have much to do with setting up the operation.

[Assistant] Still, it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

[User] But, yeah, it turned out good. Yeah. And I think I have all the people over there. I think I've had a good impact on them. They liked me.

[Assistant] It sounds like.

[User] And they like Americans.

[Assistant] Are they generally favorable towards Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they like Americans.

[Assistant] Are they generally favorable towards Americans?

[User] Yeah, very much so. Yeah. They also like the Russians, not as much as they like the Americans, but you know, they still have, they're dependent on Russians. All the business left. Like I said, there's, they have no natural resources, very little industry there. All the industry left when the Soviet Union fell. All the chemical plants in Vanadzor, which is a town about 40 kilometers from where I lived, all the plant after plant after plant's vacant. There's nothing there. They had thousands of employees in those chemical plants, and they sold those chemicals around the rest of the Soviet Union.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] It was a closed economy. You know, if you made it here, you had to buy it there, you know. And the same thing in Dilijan. They had like an electronic plant that employed 3,000 people, open, going 24 hours a day. It's gone. It's a town of 10,000 people. 3,000 jobs were gone. And they're not going, they're not coming back. That's why we were trying to make it, turn it into the tourism sector.

[Assistant] So there are other industries.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, very much so. Yeah. They also like the Russians, not as much as they like the Americans, but you know, they still have, they're dependent on Russians. All the business left. Like I said, there's, they have no natural resources, very little industry there. All the industry left when the Soviet Union fell. All the chemical plants in Vanadzor, which is a town about 40 kilometers from where I lived, all the plant after plant after plant's vacant. There's nothing there. They had thousands of employees in those chemical plants, and they sold those chemicals around the rest of the Soviet Union.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] It was a closed economy. You know, if you made it here, you had to buy it there, you know. And the same thing in Dilijan. They had like an electronic plant that employed 3,000 people, open, going 24 hours a day. It's gone. It's a town of 10,000 people. 3,000 jobs were gone. And they're not going, they're not coming back. That's why we were trying to make it, turn it into the tourism sector.

[Assistant] So there are other industries.

[User] And they had put some people to work in. But most of the people who had gone to work for the bank that had moved there came from the capital city, Yerevan. So it didn't really impact the local populace. It was more of an import of the people and they built the, they built apartments for the employees. So it didn't really impact the living conditions.

[Assistant] Didn't help them out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a closed economy. You know, if you made it here, you had to buy it there, you know. And the same thing in Dilijan. They had like an electronic plant that employed 3,000 people, open, going 24 hours a day. It's gone. It's a town of 10,000 people. 3,000 jobs were gone. And they're not going, they're not coming back. That's why we were trying to make it, turn it into the tourism sector.

[Assistant] So there are other industries.

[User] And they had put some people to work in. But most of the people who had gone to work for the bank that had moved there came from the capital city, Yerevan. So it didn't really impact the local populace. It was more of an import of the people and they built the, they built apartments for the employees. So it didn't really impact the living conditions.

[Assistant] Didn't help them out?

[User] No, not that much. Anyway, we were working on trying to get it going and then.

[Assistant] And that wasn't too long ago. Do you think, do you get feedback from them now? Are things still going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they had put some people to work in. But most of the people who had gone to work for the bank that had moved there came from the capital city, Yerevan. So it didn't really impact the local populace. It was more of an import of the people and they built the, they built apartments for the employees. So it didn't really impact the living conditions.

[Assistant] Didn't help them out?

[User] No, not that much. Anyway, we were working on trying to get it going and then.

[Assistant] And that wasn't too long ago. Do you think, do you get feedback from them now? Are things still going?

[User] Yeah, I hear from them all the time.

[Assistant] The tourism industry is developing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not that much. Anyway, we were working on trying to get it going and then.

[Assistant] And that wasn't too long ago. Do you think, do you get feedback from them now? Are things still going?

[User] Yeah, I hear from them all the time.

[Assistant] The tourism industry is developing?

[User] Eh, not.

[Assistant] Not that great?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then when I left, it was a sad day. I hate to see them, hate to say goodbye, but it was time to go. Yeah, I was glad to see my kids. I was lucky. Harvey, the hurricane that hit Houston.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] International airport had been closed. I flew out. I flew in on September the first. They'd just opened the airport. I was lucky.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] It was open when I flew in, so.

[Assistant] Well, you know, usually I interview people who have done one assignment and, you know, you ask about how Peace Corps has affected the rest of their life. But with you, Peace Corps has been kind of a lasting thing for the past, you know, 20, 20 some odd years, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was open when I flew in, so.

[Assistant] Well, you know, usually I interview people who have done one assignment and, you know, you ask about how Peace Corps has affected the rest of their life. But with you, Peace Corps has been kind of a lasting thing for the past, you know, 20, 20 some odd years, huh?

[User] Yeah. You know, that's always, it's always in the back of my mind. Right now, I'm working with Americorps.

[Assistant] Are you?

[User] VISTA later, and my tour is up at the end of this month. So I still got that. I still like to do a little bit of volunteering.

[Assistant] That's a volunteer position though?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, that's always, it's always in the back of my mind. Right now, I'm working with Americorps.

[Assistant] Are you?

[User] VISTA later, and my tour is up at the end of this month. So I still got that. I still like to do a little bit of volunteering.

[Assistant] That's a volunteer position though?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So if it hadn't been for that first experience, the first Peace Corps experience in Nepal, do you think these other volunteer experiences may not have happened or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] VISTA later, and my tour is up at the end of this month. So I still got that. I still like to do a little bit of volunteering.

[Assistant] That's a volunteer position though?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So if it hadn't been for that first experience, the first Peace Corps experience in Nepal, do you think these other volunteer experiences may not have happened or?

[User] Well, no, like I said it, it was cut short. I think the most important thing that keeps my interest is the fact that John Kennedy had a vision about the Peace Corps and that, like I said, I'd been in the Air Force, which was, you know, I was young and I was a warrior. And then when I got older, I got to thinking, you know, maybe it's not all about being a warrior. Maybe it's about spreading a little bit of good news. And so I think John Kennedy was the catalyst that has kept me going really.

[Assistant] All those years ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So if it hadn't been for that first experience, the first Peace Corps experience in Nepal, do you think these other volunteer experiences may not have happened or?

[User] Well, no, like I said it, it was cut short. I think the most important thing that keeps my interest is the fact that John Kennedy had a vision about the Peace Corps and that, like I said, I'd been in the Air Force, which was, you know, I was young and I was a warrior. And then when I got older, I got to thinking, you know, maybe it's not all about being a warrior. Maybe it's about spreading a little bit of good news. And so I think John Kennedy was the catalyst that has kept me going really.

[Assistant] All those years ago.

[User] Yeah. I think so. He was a visionary.

[Assistant] Well, great. Any last words before we sum it up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I think so. He was a visionary.

[Assistant] Well, great. Any last words before we sum it up?

[User] I've had a great time, yeah. It's been great. I have very few regrets about my Peace Corps services, except a couple of times when I fell and hurt my knee.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] But, yeah. But no, it's been good.

[Assistant] Well, great. Yeah. You've had a lot of great experiences, Charlie. Well, thanks very much. And that concludes our interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did. It did. I was up on the tower on top of one of the assembly buildings and could see one, it looked like it was headed my way, but it went into the desert floor out in front of us.

[Assistant] That's good. Quite a sight.\n\n While you were working at the weapons lab, had you been following the space program and the early flights?

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I sat in a parking lot and listened to John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight in Washington, D.C. I had had to go to town for something that day. And I sat in the parking lot, blew off whatever it was I was in town for, and listened to his whole flight. It was great.

[Assistant] Did you think at that time about the possibility of being involved with the space program?

[User] No. No, I was very much involved with what was going on there. It hadn't become repetitious yet, so it never crossed my mind at that point.

[Assistant] Just until you got the call.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I sat in a parking lot and listened to John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight in Washington, D.C. I had had to go to town for something that day. And I sat in the parking lot, blew off whatever it was I was in town for, and listened to his whole flight. It was great.

[Assistant] Did you think at that time about the possibility of being involved with the space program?

[User] No. No, I was very much involved with what was going on there. It hadn't become repetitious yet, so it never crossed my mind at that point.

[Assistant] Just until you got the call.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] After you had worked at White Sands, then you came back here to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I was very much involved with what was going on there. It hadn't become repetitious yet, so it never crossed my mind at that point.

[Assistant] Just until you got the call.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] After you had worked at White Sands, then you came back here to Houston?

[User] No, we were in Houston here the whole time and we traveled to White Sands to do those launches. But they were in addition to what we were doing here, which was primarily getting ready to do the lunar landing mission. And the principal job was getting the computing requirements defined for the control center here at Houston and getting ourselves trained to work in the control center and participating in the functional design of the guidance and control system of the Apollo spacecraft and the lunar module about what they were going to have to do and the ground would interface with those. That really was a training kind of process for what turned out later to be the mission techniques, which, when we started, didn't exist. There was no such thing as the mission techniques process. It was a lot of people on their own initiative trying to put all that together and get it documented.

[Assistant] Do you recall what some of the stages were as you were training, as you were looking at these systems and beginning to put these techniques together? Did you get together and have classroom sessions or training sessions or just strategy sessions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The flight dynamics people were really kind of the pivotal point between all of it, because all of the systems-oriented engineers had to support the trajectory, which was to get to the Moon, and the radar tracking systems and the ground computing maneuver computations and all that. That was the pivotal business. They called us the "Trench," by the way, if you ever run across that, because we had the front row of the consoles in the control center. So everybody was above us. But, of course, we considered ourselves the pick of the crop, you know. [Laughter] We thought we had the hardest job of all.

[Assistant] Certainly a very important one.

[User] After I became a flight director, I realized that that was not true. [Laughter] But it worked while we were there.

[Assistant] Yes, we've run across a few references to the Trench, and it seems like everybody had a pretty good feeling about themselves and the camaraderie down there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Quite a few stories surrounding—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After I became a flight director, I realized that that was not true. [Laughter] But it worked while we were there.

[Assistant] Yes, we've run across a few references to the Trench, and it seems like everybody had a pretty good feeling about themselves and the camaraderie down there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Quite a few stories surrounding—

[User] Yes. I guess we were probably the largest sub-team in the control center, because we had the retrofire officer and the guidance officer and the flight dynamics officer. Yes, we were the largest sub-team in the control center. Not the largest team—I'm sorry, in the mission operations room, but in the control center, the systems guys had the larger teams. The complexity of their job was tough, they needed lots of books, which I learned as a part of my flight director training.

[Assistant] You mentioned that when you first came down, or when your friend first called you, that you didn't even know what a flight dynamics officer was, and here you came down and were one of the people most experienced with this type of work. What, if you could define for us, what a flight dynamics officer was meant to do for Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Quite a few stories surrounding—

[User] Yes. I guess we were probably the largest sub-team in the control center, because we had the retrofire officer and the guidance officer and the flight dynamics officer. Yes, we were the largest sub-team in the control center. Not the largest team—I'm sorry, in the mission operations room, but in the control center, the systems guys had the larger teams. The complexity of their job was tough, they needed lots of books, which I learned as a part of my flight director training.

[Assistant] You mentioned that when you first came down, or when your friend first called you, that you didn't even know what a flight dynamics officer was, and here you came down and were one of the people most experienced with this type of work. What, if you could define for us, what a flight dynamics officer was meant to do for Apollo.

[User] No one has done that for you [before]?

[Assistant] Well, we've had a couple, but we haven't talked to many, so—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I guess we were probably the largest sub-team in the control center, because we had the retrofire officer and the guidance officer and the flight dynamics officer. Yes, we were the largest sub-team in the control center. Not the largest team—I'm sorry, in the mission operations room, but in the control center, the systems guys had the larger teams. The complexity of their job was tough, they needed lots of books, which I learned as a part of my flight director training.

[Assistant] You mentioned that when you first came down, or when your friend first called you, that you didn't even know what a flight dynamics officer was, and here you came down and were one of the people most experienced with this type of work. What, if you could define for us, what a flight dynamics officer was meant to do for Apollo.

[User] No one has done that for you [before]?

[Assistant] Well, we've had a couple, but we haven't talked to many, so—

[User] Well, the flight dynamics officer is predominantly responsible for the management of the trajectory. That means he's got to determine what the trajectory is, which is a position and velocity at a time—a position, velocity, time relationship, and that allows you to tell where you are and where you're going to be, a trajectory is predictable and projectable. The flight dynamics officer also is the leader of the Trench. The guidance officer manages the guidance system and monitors it and loads it for the maneuvers, and the RETRO [retrofire] officer is continually figuring out how you're going to get home from where you are. Both of them are dependent upon the job the flight dynamics officer's doing in terms of trajectory management, what it is now and what it's going to be reflected by the maneuvers that are being planned. Is that concise enough?

[Assistant] That's a great definition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No one has done that for you [before]?

[Assistant] Well, we've had a couple, but we haven't talked to many, so—

[User] Well, the flight dynamics officer is predominantly responsible for the management of the trajectory. That means he's got to determine what the trajectory is, which is a position and velocity at a time—a position, velocity, time relationship, and that allows you to tell where you are and where you're going to be, a trajectory is predictable and projectable. The flight dynamics officer also is the leader of the Trench. The guidance officer manages the guidance system and monitors it and loads it for the maneuvers, and the RETRO [retrofire] officer is continually figuring out how you're going to get home from where you are. Both of them are dependent upon the job the flight dynamics officer's doing in terms of trajectory management, what it is now and what it's going to be reflected by the maneuvers that are being planned. Is that concise enough?

[Assistant] That's a great definition.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] One thing that's interesting to look at is the fact that the computers that you used to help you in these computations and the trajectory and so forth don't measure up to a desktop computer nowadays.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the flight dynamics officer is predominantly responsible for the management of the trajectory. That means he's got to determine what the trajectory is, which is a position and velocity at a time—a position, velocity, time relationship, and that allows you to tell where you are and where you're going to be, a trajectory is predictable and projectable. The flight dynamics officer also is the leader of the Trench. The guidance officer manages the guidance system and monitors it and loads it for the maneuvers, and the RETRO [retrofire] officer is continually figuring out how you're going to get home from where you are. Both of them are dependent upon the job the flight dynamics officer's doing in terms of trajectory management, what it is now and what it's going to be reflected by the maneuvers that are being planned. Is that concise enough?

[Assistant] That's a great definition.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] One thing that's interesting to look at is the fact that the computers that you used to help you in these computations and the trajectory and so forth don't measure up to a desktop computer nowadays.

[User] Oh, that's very true.

[Assistant] Did a lot with slide rules and such?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that's very true.

[Assistant] Did a lot with slide rules and such?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No?

[User] No. But we did have Olivettis that we did a lot of work with, which was an early kind of a precursor to the PCs. It was a desktop computer that you could program and had a little magnetic card that you wrote the programs on, and if you built enough cards and did them right, you could do a reentry trajectory with an Olivetti, which was pretty fascinating.\n\n But I remember very well when the PC thing started. We had guys walking around talking about these things called microprocessors. I didn't have time to figure out what those were, but I kept hearing them get all excited about it, some of the nerdy kind of guys. [Laughter] But later I understood what they were; that was the precursor to these PCs. The guys that liked those liked it because they didn't have an operating system. I mean, they interfaced with them with switches and machine language kind of stuff. It was not a nice interface thing like [Microsoft] Windows or the operating system for Apple.

[Assistant] Very different at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No?

[User] No. But we did have Olivettis that we did a lot of work with, which was an early kind of a precursor to the PCs. It was a desktop computer that you could program and had a little magnetic card that you wrote the programs on, and if you built enough cards and did them right, you could do a reentry trajectory with an Olivetti, which was pretty fascinating.\n\n But I remember very well when the PC thing started. We had guys walking around talking about these things called microprocessors. I didn't have time to figure out what those were, but I kept hearing them get all excited about it, some of the nerdy kind of guys. [Laughter] But later I understood what they were; that was the precursor to these PCs. The guys that liked those liked it because they didn't have an operating system. I mean, they interfaced with them with switches and machine language kind of stuff. It was not a nice interface thing like [Microsoft] Windows or the operating system for Apple.

[Assistant] Very different at the time.

[User] Yes. The Naval Ordnance Research Calculator [NORC] was one of the first major electronic calculating devices, and that was the computer that existed at the Naval Weapons Laboratory and it was used for all of the analysis we did there. That was a vacuum tube system [as opposed to transistors], and each vacuum tube tray was about the size of a PC now, or certainly at least a laptop. There was this room, which all the walls were full of these trays of vacuum tubes, and the operators sat at a console that looked a whole lot like out [of] Star Trek... But the total interface with that was punch cards, [we] loaded program[s] and loaded data with punch cards.

[Assistant] Certainly very different than today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But we did have Olivettis that we did a lot of work with, which was an early kind of a precursor to the PCs. It was a desktop computer that you could program and had a little magnetic card that you wrote the programs on, and if you built enough cards and did them right, you could do a reentry trajectory with an Olivetti, which was pretty fascinating.\n\n But I remember very well when the PC thing started. We had guys walking around talking about these things called microprocessors. I didn't have time to figure out what those were, but I kept hearing them get all excited about it, some of the nerdy kind of guys. [Laughter] But later I understood what they were; that was the precursor to these PCs. The guys that liked those liked it because they didn't have an operating system. I mean, they interfaced with them with switches and machine language kind of stuff. It was not a nice interface thing like [Microsoft] Windows or the operating system for Apple.

[Assistant] Very different at the time.

[User] Yes. The Naval Ordnance Research Calculator [NORC] was one of the first major electronic calculating devices, and that was the computer that existed at the Naval Weapons Laboratory and it was used for all of the analysis we did there. That was a vacuum tube system [as opposed to transistors], and each vacuum tube tray was about the size of a PC now, or certainly at least a laptop. There was this room, which all the walls were full of these trays of vacuum tubes, and the operators sat at a console that looked a whole lot like out [of] Star Trek... But the total interface with that was punch cards, [we] loaded program[s] and loaded data with punch cards.

[Assistant] Certainly very different than today.

[User] Yes, very different.

[Assistant] But you were able to make it work and help do what you needed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The Naval Ordnance Research Calculator [NORC] was one of the first major electronic calculating devices, and that was the computer that existed at the Naval Weapons Laboratory and it was used for all of the analysis we did there. That was a vacuum tube system [as opposed to transistors], and each vacuum tube tray was about the size of a PC now, or certainly at least a laptop. There was this room, which all the walls were full of these trays of vacuum tubes, and the operators sat at a console that looked a whole lot like out [of] Star Trek... But the total interface with that was punch cards, [we] loaded program[s] and loaded data with punch cards.

[Assistant] Certainly very different than today.

[User] Yes, very different.

[Assistant] But you were able to make it work and help do what you needed.

[User] It was nice to start at all of these almost first-of-a-kind things, too, because it wasn't such a culture shock to walk in and try to be competent with something that was extremely complex, one of the problems with that being that there's an awful lot of assumptions that people make about where you come from when they design these very complex things. You can't just pick up a PC and use it.

[Assistant] Yes, not that easy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, very different.

[Assistant] But you were able to make it work and help do what you needed.

[User] It was nice to start at all of these almost first-of-a-kind things, too, because it wasn't such a culture shock to walk in and try to be competent with something that was extremely complex, one of the problems with that being that there's an awful lot of assumptions that people make about where you come from when they design these very complex things. You can't just pick up a PC and use it.

[Assistant] Yes, not that easy.

[User] No. You've got to find the path.

[Assistant] That's right. As you continued to work on the program and you began to find that path and you built up the skills and techniques and programs necessary to make Apollo happen, along the way were there any major stepping points or challenges that were hard to overcome, or did it all flow pretty smoothly in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, plus the NASA management, the program office management, knew that to charter it out of the program office would give it the clout that it needed to operate with everybody. The program office relationship is, they got the money, and so they're the money management, or the business management, of the program. So if you wanted to get some money to do something, you had to go through the program office. So this kind of an integrating function was a natural to come out of the program office.

[Assistant] An example of some of the good leadership throughout.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] That's good. Well, and it all did come together, and Gemini eventually came to a successful conclusion.

[User] Although they didn't have the mission techniques or the data priority for Gemini. The Apollo was the first one. To provide a segue for later, Bill Tindall got his revenge for my resistance, too, because when it was time for him to go on, he insisted that I was to replace him as the chair of that, which I did do.

[Assistant] Well, at least you had learned from him and been through it with him, so you were able to build on that. That's good.\n\n Talking about Bill Tindall, unfortunately we won't have a chance to talk with him for this project, but can you tell us a little bit about him and maybe some of the other people you were working with at the time, too, that were influential, or that made an impact on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there's some interesting people. All these guys, they were the giants.

[Assistant] They certainly were. When did you begin running simulations for the missions for Apollo, and was it during this time when you were building up all these techniques?

[User] We began running simulations before it was possible to run simulations. There were simulations where we ran against a computer model of a crew, and then there were simulations that we ran with crews, and we could hardly wait to get to where we could run simulations with real crews. But we didn't have simulators here, and we didn't have a control center here, but we wanted to do it anyway. It turns out there was a facility called the ME-101, which was a spacecraft simulator in Downey, California, at the Rockwell plant there. It was hooked up to computers out there. So we developed a communication system between that facility and a computer here.\n\n We set it up so that the trajectory data out of the ME-101 in California would print out vectors, you know, position, velocity and time, on a computer here and we would manually load those into another computer and compute rendezvous maneuvers and then read them back to the crew on a telephone and then they would do them. So we were running integrated sims really early to do that, long before we had sims that resembled anything like we would run after we had a control center. So, still building the control center, getting ready to do Gemini stuff here, and we were running [Apollo] simulations with real crews and that simulator in California.

[Assistant] Figured out a way to make it all work.

[User] We were really anxious to get on with it. We knew that was going to be fun. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Always good to do the fun stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We began running simulations before it was possible to run simulations. There were simulations where we ran against a computer model of a crew, and then there were simulations that we ran with crews, and we could hardly wait to get to where we could run simulations with real crews. But we didn't have simulators here, and we didn't have a control center here, but we wanted to do it anyway. It turns out there was a facility called the ME-101, which was a spacecraft simulator in Downey, California, at the Rockwell plant there. It was hooked up to computers out there. So we developed a communication system between that facility and a computer here.\n\n We set it up so that the trajectory data out of the ME-101 in California would print out vectors, you know, position, velocity and time, on a computer here and we would manually load those into another computer and compute rendezvous maneuvers and then read them back to the crew on a telephone and then they would do them. So we were running integrated sims really early to do that, long before we had sims that resembled anything like we would run after we had a control center. So, still building the control center, getting ready to do Gemini stuff here, and we were running [Apollo] simulations with real crews and that simulator in California.

[Assistant] Figured out a way to make it all work.

[User] We were really anxious to get on with it. We knew that was going to be fun. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Always good to do the fun stuff.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Always. While they were building the control system and putting the whole space center together, where were you based out of, do you recall? Scattered throughout Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean what building?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Sure. We spent the first probably four months in the second story of the Stahl & Myers warehouse building, where Oshman's is now, on the freeway. No windows, not very good air-conditioning. The control center was one of the early buildings that they built here, and when that was ready, we came out before it was done and moved in. So our offices were basically next door. They were in the same building as the control center in the Building 30.\n\n For long time we moved around a lot. We ended up over in the second tallest building, it's Building 47, which is a six- or seven-story building over there. We moved out of the control center and over there when we finally got too large for the room we had.\n\n I don't know where those guys sit anymore. I haven't known for a long time. But it was really kind of interesting, because we'd get up from our desk and then in a few steps be in the control center.

[Assistant] That's convenient.

[User] Plus we kept a lot of data in our office area, because it was going to be convenient. We had to carry it all over there. That was very much worthwhile, too.

[Assistant] Certainly. As part of all this building up for Apollo, were you involved with any of the details of the construction of the control center, or just more with the computers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Plus we kept a lot of data in our office area, because it was going to be convenient. We had to carry it all over there. That was very much worthwhile, too.

[Assistant] Certainly. As part of all this building up for Apollo, were you involved with any of the details of the construction of the control center, or just more with the computers?

[User] No. Our job was—you know, they had these big projection TVs and those kinds of things at the front. Our business was deciding and recommending what was going to be on those. The little TVs that had all the data, we were deciding, recommending, what was going to be on those, the configuration of the communications panels and who we would need voice loops to and from. In the case of the flight dynamics officer and the booster systems engineer who was on the end or far left, we had always had abort command switches on the console.\n\n So getting those configured and the same for everybody, it was that level of stuff in the control center itself, but the basic design of the control center, it was probably under way before we had people at my level to think about that. Lyn [Lynwood C.] Dunseith and Jim [James C.] Stokes [Jr.] were probably the big pushes for that, which are also guys that I respected and admired very much. They did just an outstanding job.

[Assistant] Certainly able to put together a good center and make it all work.

[User] Yes, they did. You know, their private contractor for that job was Philco, Philco Ford, and guys like John [W.] Hatcher, who also is not with us anymore, was integral. John's a guy, slight, not very tall, dynamo, absolute dynamo. One of his favorite activities was hunting white-winged doves down by the Mexican border. If he disappeared and was out of town, that's probably where he was, was chasing the wily white wing.

[Assistant] I guess you always knew where to find him if you needed him then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Our job was—you know, they had these big projection TVs and those kinds of things at the front. Our business was deciding and recommending what was going to be on those. The little TVs that had all the data, we were deciding, recommending, what was going to be on those, the configuration of the communications panels and who we would need voice loops to and from. In the case of the flight dynamics officer and the booster systems engineer who was on the end or far left, we had always had abort command switches on the console.\n\n So getting those configured and the same for everybody, it was that level of stuff in the control center itself, but the basic design of the control center, it was probably under way before we had people at my level to think about that. Lyn [Lynwood C.] Dunseith and Jim [James C.] Stokes [Jr.] were probably the big pushes for that, which are also guys that I respected and admired very much. They did just an outstanding job.

[Assistant] Certainly able to put together a good center and make it all work.

[User] Yes, they did. You know, their private contractor for that job was Philco, Philco Ford, and guys like John [W.] Hatcher, who also is not with us anymore, was integral. John's a guy, slight, not very tall, dynamo, absolute dynamo. One of his favorite activities was hunting white-winged doves down by the Mexican border. If he disappeared and was out of town, that's probably where he was, was chasing the wily white wing.

[Assistant] I guess you always knew where to find him if you needed him then.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That's good. Well, as you came along, you were building up to Apollo. What was the first mission then that you were going to be working on, assigned to work on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did. You know, their private contractor for that job was Philco, Philco Ford, and guys like John [W.] Hatcher, who also is not with us anymore, was integral. John's a guy, slight, not very tall, dynamo, absolute dynamo. One of his favorite activities was hunting white-winged doves down by the Mexican border. If he disappeared and was out of town, that's probably where he was, was chasing the wily white wing.

[Assistant] I guess you always knew where to find him if you needed him then.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That's good. Well, as you came along, you were building up to Apollo. What was the first mission then that you were going to be working on, assigned to work on?

[User] Oh, the very first Apollo, which was Apollo 201, which was not a real spacecraft. It was a launch vehicle test and had a spacecraft with some capabilities. We all worked all of those things in some capacity. In the early days, we didn't have crews working with us yet, so some of us would do capcom functions, and do the things in terms of sequencing the computer, like the launch abort mode would change when it was time to jettison the launch escape system, that tower with the rocket. So you had to tell the computer when that had happened, and that nominally was done on a voice report from the crew, so we had those kinds of inputs to make to the computer. When staging happened and you switched first stage to second stage, the astronaut, the capcom, would tell us. So we had those kind of functions early.\n\n I was not the flight dynamics officer on any of those until probably the first real [manned] Apollo. We had other folks in training that were running all of those jobs. I was very much involved in this integration function that I had done almost from the time I came here, so they were doing that, but when it came time to put people in it, then I was the lead flight dynamics officer. We went and did that.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, the first one that was supposed to be—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That's good. Well, as you came along, you were building up to Apollo. What was the first mission then that you were going to be working on, assigned to work on?

[User] Oh, the very first Apollo, which was Apollo 201, which was not a real spacecraft. It was a launch vehicle test and had a spacecraft with some capabilities. We all worked all of those things in some capacity. In the early days, we didn't have crews working with us yet, so some of us would do capcom functions, and do the things in terms of sequencing the computer, like the launch abort mode would change when it was time to jettison the launch escape system, that tower with the rocket. So you had to tell the computer when that had happened, and that nominally was done on a voice report from the crew, so we had those kinds of inputs to make to the computer. When staging happened and you switched first stage to second stage, the astronaut, the capcom, would tell us. So we had those kind of functions early.\n\n I was not the flight dynamics officer on any of those until probably the first real [manned] Apollo. We had other folks in training that were running all of those jobs. I was very much involved in this integration function that I had done almost from the time I came here, so they were doing that, but when it came time to put people in it, then I was the lead flight dynamics officer. We went and did that.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, the first one that was supposed to be—

[User] Well, not the one we actually flew.

[Assistant] Oh, the Apollo 7?