[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] It's good to see him interested in the science aspects. Did you have any contribution or any involvement at all in looking at some of the lunar landing sites, any of the selection in that?

[User] No, I didn't participate in that part of the process. That had been going on since the mid sixties. At that Woods Hole conference, already there was discussion of the landing sites, and the Geological Survey organization in which I worked was actually developing the maps and identifying potential landing sites and was, in fact, involved in astronaut training as well for the missions. But I didn't take part in that.

[Assistant] During the missions, while you were curator, what did you do at that time? Did you follow the missions closely, go to Mission Control at all? Or did you just wait for the samples to come back?

[User] We're usually in a panic mode, because there were always things that weren't quite ready for the samples, so we were always busy doing the last-minute details, waiting to receive the samples. We followed the people that were actually in the back room in the Mission Control Center, where a small group of people, they'd mostly been involved in training the crews and in doing the site science strategy planning. So they were—I don't remember the name of that team, but they were closely involved.\n\n We, of course, watched all of the EVAs on television to the extent we could and listened to the discussions between the crew and the Mission Control Center, and just generally tried to understand what was going on and what we were going to expect to see when they got back.

[Assistant] When they did get back and you were looking at the samples and organizing them and processing them and so forth, were there any surprises?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Learn stuff. Yes.

[Assistant] As you came to the end of the Apollo Program then, at what point did you then move into—you later became chief of the Solar System Exploration. Did you stay curator for a while after the program ended and then move over?

[User] Well, like I said, the program hasn't ended yet.

[Assistant] That's true.

[User] There's still a curator, and the Lunar Sample Program continues, but we've added other sample collections. So after the Apollo flight missions ended, we still had a large amount of work. We went through the analysis of the Apollo 17 mission rocks, but then it was clear that there were a lot of samples from the previous missions that hadn't been properly studied, and it was a time when a lot of people went back and looked at what they had done and said, "Here we could make progress if we study this sample." So the period of intense study continued for at least three or four years.\n\n This sequence of things that happened was that Paul Gast was the chief of the division during the Apollo missions and he, unfortunately, passed away. It's hard to remember when. In 1973, I guess, or thereabouts. One of the people from the scientific community, Dr. Larry [A.] Haskin, was appointed to be the chief of the division, to follow Gast. Larry had the position for a couple of years, two and a half years, maybe, and decided that being a NASA bureaucrat was not cut out for him, and so he went back to the university, and he's now at Washington University in St. Louis [Missouri], and he's been a continuing contributor to lunar science throughout his career.\n\n So there was a vacancy. I was curator. We looked around for somebody from the outside for a while and didn't find anybody that suited us to fill Haskin's position, and eventually I was chosen to do that. So it was sort of an evolution, a promotion, if you will, within the JSC organization.

[Assistant] You mentioned that he didn't like being a NASA bureaucrat. Were you able to balance your geologic and scientific interest with the management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We're going to pause here real quick, if we can, and change the tape.

[User] All right. [Recorder turned off]

[Assistant] You were talking about the various programs that JSC was able to expand into and get into, to keep planetary science going.

[User] And to keep sample science going, basically.

[Assistant] As these ideas would come in, were these again coming from both people in your department and from the scientific community, people putting proposals for different sample collections?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right. [Recorder turned off]

[Assistant] You were talking about the various programs that JSC was able to expand into and get into, to keep planetary science going.

[User] And to keep sample science going, basically.

[Assistant] As these ideas would come in, were these again coming from both people in your department and from the scientific community, people putting proposals for different sample collections?

[User] No. The basic ideas came from people at JSC. There aren't many new ideas. What happens is that people get attuned to different things and so they recognize opportunities when some new information comes about. I think that that's, for example, what happened with the Antarctic meteorite program. People at JSC had been working on lunar samples and recognized that the techniques that we had and capabilities would be applicable to this new set of samples, and that there was a valid scientific reason for at least proposing to do that. So we just proposed it. You interact with people as you develop a proposal. You don't just get an idea and write it down most the time and send it off to somebody. But the ideas for these new things basically came from people at JSC who recognized, because of their experience and heritage, that they had something that could be done and would be good to do.

[Assistant] Were there any new—you talked earlier how you had developed all the different procedures and different methods and tools. As these other—the Antarctic meteorites, and then looking at the Mars return, return from a comet, were there new considerations that had to make any drastic changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we're still waiting for the space station to get out of the way. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You definitely—while the space station is going, it is important to always keep looking forward to the next step.

[User] That's what we thought, but, you see, that's the thought we had in 1984. [Laughter] And here it is 1999. So we're still waiting.

[Assistant] Hopefully not much longer.

[User] The space station, to some people, is an impediment. I don't view it that way. I wish it had been finished earlier for less money and less contention, but it really is a step in the process. Okay, so it's not the place that you would use to launch missions to Mars, but I really think that it will turn out to be a major step in human exploration, and one of the things that exploration people did not do very well was tie the programmatic link to the space station.\n\n When Tom Stafford and the Synthesis Group made its report, it virtually ignored the role of the space station in human exploration. I think since people have really gotten interested in Mars exploration, that that space station looks a little bit more relevant to many people, because that's where you will learn about people in space for long periods of time. But it really did not get the attention that it should have, and I think we probably suffer a little bit from that now. I think we'll learn a lot of really important things in the Space Station Program and we'll look back another thirty years, you'll see that it really was an important thing to do.

[Assistant] In any of your work with the Exploration Program Office or any of your other work, were you involved in any of the remote sensing or earth evaluation projects or studies that were under way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, the universities are very interested. Just this week we're receiving proposals for this coming year. I'm hoping we'll have twenty universities involved and at least 1,000 students in one way or another involved in the program. They're always very enthusiastic.

[Assistant] That's great. Very good to hear. In your career with the space program, you've mentioned throughout our talk, various individuals you've worked with. Were there any that had a really large impact on—of course, Jack Schmitt getting you involved with the geology—but that had a large impact on the various stages of your career?

[User] Oh, yes. Well, going back, Jack Schmitt. Lee [Leon T.] Silver had a lot of impact. Gerry Wasserberg, sort of a love-hate relationship. He was always a very stressful person to work with, but he was always insightful and a very strong supporter of the program. I learned a heck of a lot from him. Aaron Cohen was obviously important personally and professionally. Paul Gast and Larry Haskin were both key people.\n\n I've learned a lot and benefited from a lot of scientific colleagues, including Wendell Mendell and a whole bunch of people in the Solar System—they call it—I don't remember what they call it now. Science and Solar System Exploration Division at JSC. Another person who has been a friend and a colleague since 1984 is Paul [W.] Keaton, who was at the Los Alamos Laboratory. We formed a collaboration which continues to this day in various aspects of human exploration.\n\n So there have been a lot of people that have been important in that process.

[Assistant] A good foundation of friends and colleagues, it sounds like.

[User] Yes. Well, there are a very large number of people that you interact with in one way or another. I've been in innumerable committees, and the faces tend to change from committee to committee, so there are literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that you interact with in some way in doing this kind of work. So that keeps adding some interest as well.

[Assistant] A good group that continues to grow, like with the university students that you mentioned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, going back, Jack Schmitt. Lee [Leon T.] Silver had a lot of impact. Gerry Wasserberg, sort of a love-hate relationship. He was always a very stressful person to work with, but he was always insightful and a very strong supporter of the program. I learned a heck of a lot from him. Aaron Cohen was obviously important personally and professionally. Paul Gast and Larry Haskin were both key people.\n\n I've learned a lot and benefited from a lot of scientific colleagues, including Wendell Mendell and a whole bunch of people in the Solar System—they call it—I don't remember what they call it now. Science and Solar System Exploration Division at JSC. Another person who has been a friend and a colleague since 1984 is Paul [W.] Keaton, who was at the Los Alamos Laboratory. We formed a collaboration which continues to this day in various aspects of human exploration.\n\n So there have been a lot of people that have been important in that process.

[Assistant] A good foundation of friends and colleagues, it sounds like.

[User] Yes. Well, there are a very large number of people that you interact with in one way or another. I've been in innumerable committees, and the faces tend to change from committee to committee, so there are literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that you interact with in some way in doing this kind of work. So that keeps adding some interest as well.

[Assistant] A good group that continues to grow, like with the university students that you mentioned.

[User] Getting young people in is the really important thing, because some of us are getting a little older. That's why you're doing, I guess, this history.

[Assistant] Well, you have a lot of valuable information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, there are a very large number of people that you interact with in one way or another. I've been in innumerable committees, and the faces tend to change from committee to committee, so there are literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that you interact with in some way in doing this kind of work. So that keeps adding some interest as well.

[Assistant] A good group that continues to grow, like with the university students that you mentioned.

[User] Getting young people in is the really important thing, because some of us are getting a little older. That's why you're doing, I guess, this history.

[Assistant] Well, you have a lot of valuable information.

[User] While you still have me around. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Hopefully you'll still be around for quite a few years yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting young people in is the really important thing, because some of us are getting a little older. That's why you're doing, I guess, this history.

[Assistant] Well, you have a lot of valuable information.

[User] While you still have me around. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Hopefully you'll still be around for quite a few years yet.

[User] I expect so.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with working in the space field, what did you consider your biggest challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] While you still have me around. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Hopefully you'll still be around for quite a few years yet.

[User] I expect so.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with working in the space field, what did you consider your biggest challenge?

[User] Well, I guess there have been several different kinds. The challenge during the Apollo Program was both a technical and an organizational challenge, and putting that together and holding that together was not traumatic, but stressful. So that was probably the biggest.\n\n The period of time from 1976 to 1980, '81, was also pretty challenging, in that the environment within NASA for holding together a group of scientists at JSC was not very good, and there was a lot of stress involved with that. Then just getting people back into space beyond low earth orbit is a real challenge. I don't know how to do it, but I keep thinking about it.

[Assistant] Hopefully thinking about it enough and doing various things will help make it happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I expect so.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with working in the space field, what did you consider your biggest challenge?

[User] Well, I guess there have been several different kinds. The challenge during the Apollo Program was both a technical and an organizational challenge, and putting that together and holding that together was not traumatic, but stressful. So that was probably the biggest.\n\n The period of time from 1976 to 1980, '81, was also pretty challenging, in that the environment within NASA for holding together a group of scientists at JSC was not very good, and there was a lot of stress involved with that. Then just getting people back into space beyond low earth orbit is a real challenge. I don't know how to do it, but I keep thinking about it.

[Assistant] Hopefully thinking about it enough and doing various things will help make it happen.

[User] Yes, keep talking about it.

[Assistant] Would there be anything that you would consider your most significant accomplishment or achievement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To this date I can't explain to you how that happened, actually. I don't remember enough of the details of how we spread the word and got people to participate, but in the end we had some really excellent people who were willing to spend their time.\n\n We had at that meeting the last talk ever given by Krafft [A.] Ehricke. Krafft Ehricke was one of the giants of space exploration and had for a number of years been writing and giving talks on the subject of lunar development. When we first organized the conference, we decided that we wanted to have him participate, so I contacted him and he said, "Well, I'd really like to participate, but I have leukemia and I'm undertaking treatment for leukemia." A couple of weeks later he called me back and said, "I really want to participate. I've scheduled my chemotherapy so that I will be in good shape for that day."

[Assistant] Oh, my.

[User] And he died about a month after the conference. That was really special.

[Assistant] Special for him and for the conference participants.

[User] For me it was special.

[Assistant] That's good. It's great that you were able to give him that opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he died about a month after the conference. That was really special.

[Assistant] Special for him and for the conference participants.

[User] For me it was special.

[Assistant] That's good. It's great that you were able to give him that opportunity.

[User] Yes. Yes, gives me goosebumps to think about it now.

[Assistant] Me, too. [Pauses] Looking back, would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For me it was special.

[Assistant] That's good. It's great that you were able to give him that opportunity.

[User] Yes. Yes, gives me goosebumps to think about it now.

[Assistant] Me, too. [Pauses] Looking back, would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?

[User] No. No. No way. I mean, depending on where it was, I couldn't have predicted at any point. I went to college to do something else different than I decided to do. Everything was changed by Sputnik and the Apollo speech that was given by Kennedy. There was no way of predicting. I think that, by and large, I've pretty much taken the path of least resistance in all of this. It was more or less obvious at every stage what was reasonable to do in the context of what I was able to do and what was interesting. So I don't claim to have any particular great insights into where things should go, but most of what I have done seems to have been reasonably useful. So I'm pleased about that.

[Assistant] You definitely have accomplished a lot in your career and have a lot to be pleased about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, gives me goosebumps to think about it now.

[Assistant] Me, too. [Pauses] Looking back, would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?

[User] No. No. No way. I mean, depending on where it was, I couldn't have predicted at any point. I went to college to do something else different than I decided to do. Everything was changed by Sputnik and the Apollo speech that was given by Kennedy. There was no way of predicting. I think that, by and large, I've pretty much taken the path of least resistance in all of this. It was more or less obvious at every stage what was reasonable to do in the context of what I was able to do and what was interesting. So I don't claim to have any particular great insights into where things should go, but most of what I have done seems to have been reasonably useful. So I'm pleased about that.

[Assistant] You definitely have accomplished a lot in your career and have a lot to be pleased about.

[User] Well, thank you.

[Assistant]
Before we close today, I'd like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they have any questions.

I do have two. First of all, how would you characterize the relationship between yourself as lunar curator and the overall manager of the LRL?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know if it was fear. There was a lot of uncertainty. We could pretty reliably predict what orbit it would enter on, and we could change in the attitude of Skylab and change how much drag it had, so they were pretty sure they could predict the Orbiter and maybe even the half orbit. So as we got closer, it looked pretty confident that it would be somewhere where it’s mostly ocean, so we thought it would come in short of Australia, would have been ideal. As it is, we hit some—I don’t know if we ever caused any damage there, but there was some fairly big tank structures that ended up in Australia. I guess there wasn’t a big concern, though. No.

[Assistant] Do you remember NASA getting fined for littering? Do you remember that event?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Just thought I would ask. We’ve had some recent requests about that, and there were a lot of people who want to know why didn’t NASA pay the fine. They were just fined in jest.\n\n I’m curious about your time on console. You had worked in the Navy for so long. Was this the first time that you had worked with women? Some of the people we’ve talked to from various classes had worked in the military for so long, that they hadn’t had that opportunity.

[User] Good question. Professionally that’s probably true. I never thought of it. But, yes, in fact, because in those days the Navy, women were in the Navy, but weren’t on ships. So that’s true, yes.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of women who were working on the Flight Control Teams at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Just thought I would ask. We’ve had some recent requests about that, and there were a lot of people who want to know why didn’t NASA pay the fine. They were just fined in jest.\n\n I’m curious about your time on console. You had worked in the Navy for so long. Was this the first time that you had worked with women? Some of the people we’ve talked to from various classes had worked in the military for so long, that they hadn’t had that opportunity.

[User] Good question. Professionally that’s probably true. I never thought of it. But, yes, in fact, because in those days the Navy, women were in the Navy, but weren’t on ships. So that’s true, yes.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of women who were working on the Flight Control Teams at that point?

[User] Probably not as many as now, but a fair number. Bonnie, of course. Michelle [A.] Brekke was one of the first selected to be Flight Director in that time frame, or a little after that. … Linda Ham. Short, blonde. She was in Propulsion, a very sharp gal, obviously in those days too. … So, not as many as now. The engineering schools weren’t putting out as many women then as they do now, but a fair number. It wasn’t a big issue; it was just part of the business.

[Assistant] What was it like making that transition from the military to a civilian world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good question. Professionally that’s probably true. I never thought of it. But, yes, in fact, because in those days the Navy, women were in the Navy, but weren’t on ships. So that’s true, yes.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of women who were working on the Flight Control Teams at that point?

[User] Probably not as many as now, but a fair number. Bonnie, of course. Michelle [A.] Brekke was one of the first selected to be Flight Director in that time frame, or a little after that. … Linda Ham. Short, blonde. She was in Propulsion, a very sharp gal, obviously in those days too. … So, not as many as now. The engineering schools weren’t putting out as many women then as they do now, but a fair number. It wasn’t a big issue; it was just part of the business.

[Assistant] What was it like making that transition from the military to a civilian world?

[User] Again, not a big deal. NASA felt kind of like a military organization, very strong lines of command. At least that was our attitude, those of us who came from the military. We viewed John [W.] Young as assistant God, and George was God, you know. That was it. [laughs]

[Assistant] What was your schedule like when you were working in Payload Operations and then when you were working Flight Control?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably not as many as now, but a fair number. Bonnie, of course. Michelle [A.] Brekke was one of the first selected to be Flight Director in that time frame, or a little after that. … Linda Ham. Short, blonde. She was in Propulsion, a very sharp gal, obviously in those days too. … So, not as many as now. The engineering schools weren’t putting out as many women then as they do now, but a fair number. It wasn’t a big issue; it was just part of the business.

[Assistant] What was it like making that transition from the military to a civilian world?

[User] Again, not a big deal. NASA felt kind of like a military organization, very strong lines of command. At least that was our attitude, those of us who came from the military. We viewed John [W.] Young as assistant God, and George was God, you know. That was it. [laughs]

[Assistant] What was your schedule like when you were working in Payload Operations and then when you were working Flight Control?

[User] So we were just doing simulations. I was hired as an astronaut and joined the corps before we flew STS-1, so this was early simulation days, so it wasn’t extremely stressful and difficult. Eight to five, seven-thirty to five-thirty kind of job. Not much travel in those days.

[Assistant] Did you guys have a Skylab Splatdown party?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Again, not a big deal. NASA felt kind of like a military organization, very strong lines of command. At least that was our attitude, those of us who came from the military. We viewed John [W.] Young as assistant God, and George was God, you know. That was it. [laughs]

[Assistant] What was your schedule like when you were working in Payload Operations and then when you were working Flight Control?

[User] So we were just doing simulations. I was hired as an astronaut and joined the corps before we flew STS-1, so this was early simulation days, so it wasn’t extremely stressful and difficult. Eight to five, seven-thirty to five-thirty kind of job. Not much travel in those days.

[Assistant] Did you guys have a Skylab Splatdown party?

[User] Oh, I’m sure there was, yes. In fact, my daughter still wears a Skylab Splatdown t-shirt. I think it’s her favorite t-shirt. She’s twenty-four, right? I think it’s her pajamas. [laughs]

[Assistant] That’s amazing it’s still holding up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we were just doing simulations. I was hired as an astronaut and joined the corps before we flew STS-1, so this was early simulation days, so it wasn’t extremely stressful and difficult. Eight to five, seven-thirty to five-thirty kind of job. Not much travel in those days.

[Assistant] Did you guys have a Skylab Splatdown party?

[User] Oh, I’m sure there was, yes. In fact, my daughter still wears a Skylab Splatdown t-shirt. I think it’s her favorite t-shirt. She’s twenty-four, right? I think it’s her pajamas. [laughs]

[Assistant] That’s amazing it’s still holding up.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Probably has quite a few holes in it.\n\n I also read that you were the lead engineer for Shuttle launched satellites. Anything you want to say about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I’m sure there was, yes. In fact, my daughter still wears a Skylab Splatdown t-shirt. I think it’s her favorite t-shirt. She’s twenty-four, right? I think it’s her pajamas. [laughs]

[Assistant] That’s amazing it’s still holding up.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Probably has quite a few holes in it.\n\n I also read that you were the lead engineer for Shuttle launched satellites. Anything you want to say about that?

[User] So that was the satellites that went on the McDonnell Douglas PAM booster. That was that job.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about applying for the 1980 class of astronauts. Had it differed at all from the ’78 application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Probably has quite a few holes in it.\n\n I also read that you were the lead engineer for Shuttle launched satellites. Anything you want to say about that?

[User] So that was the satellites that went on the McDonnell Douglas PAM booster. That was that job.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about applying for the 1980 class of astronauts. Had it differed at all from the ’78 application process?

[User] No, essentially the same process, just kind of update the package and send it in. So that was done in the spring, I think, of ’80 and interviews in the June time frame, and selection around July or August, as I recall. Interview process was very similar. Saw a lot of the same people that I’d seen before, or recognized the names.\n\n So that was a very stressful time, actually. I spent a lot of time thinking, “Well, if I don’t get selected, am going to stay here and make supporting from the ground my career?” I’m not sure I’d worked through all that.

[Assistant] So when you got that phone call from George Abbey, what was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was the satellites that went on the McDonnell Douglas PAM booster. That was that job.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about applying for the 1980 class of astronauts. Had it differed at all from the ’78 application process?

[User] No, essentially the same process, just kind of update the package and send it in. So that was done in the spring, I think, of ’80 and interviews in the June time frame, and selection around July or August, as I recall. Interview process was very similar. Saw a lot of the same people that I’d seen before, or recognized the names.\n\n So that was a very stressful time, actually. I spent a lot of time thinking, “Well, if I don’t get selected, am going to stay here and make supporting from the ground my career?” I’m not sure I’d worked through all that.

[Assistant] So when you got that phone call from George Abbey, what was that like?

[User] That was good. Actually, I had some indications that I was pretty close, so it wasn’t a total surprise, but it was a huge relief, and obviously the largest single career-shaping event of my life, that call.

[Assistant] Were you and Bonnie and Jerry sort of comparing, seeing if someone got a phone call?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, essentially the same process, just kind of update the package and send it in. So that was done in the spring, I think, of ’80 and interviews in the June time frame, and selection around July or August, as I recall. Interview process was very similar. Saw a lot of the same people that I’d seen before, or recognized the names.\n\n So that was a very stressful time, actually. I spent a lot of time thinking, “Well, if I don’t get selected, am going to stay here and make supporting from the ground my career?” I’m not sure I’d worked through all that.

[Assistant] So when you got that phone call from George Abbey, what was that like?

[User] That was good. Actually, I had some indications that I was pretty close, so it wasn’t a total surprise, but it was a huge relief, and obviously the largest single career-shaping event of my life, that call.

[Assistant] Were you and Bonnie and Jerry sort of comparing, seeing if someone got a phone call?

[User] Our offices were within shouting distance, so you could hear the shouts. I think everyone was there that morning. I couldn’t tell you who got the first call. But the party that night was at my house, of everyone that called in the Houston area, and there were probably, I don’t know, seems like five or six, and then a lot of the ’78 class showed up at the party that night, so that was fun.

[Assistant] That’s great. So why don’t you tell us about that first day as you’re walking into the Astronaut Office and you’ve got this new class of—Dave [David C.] Leestma said you guys called yourselves “the Needless Nineteen.” What did the rest of the astronauts think? We hadn’t flown the Space Shuttle yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, a week, probably. But it was really a full-time job at the Cape. We would typically fly down on a Monday night or Tuesday morning and fly back Friday.

[Assistant] Were you doing that much further in advance of a flight?

[User] Well, starting probably the first of January of ’81. Is that right? Do I have the years right? Yes. When did we fly? We flew in April.

[Assistant] In April.

[User] Right. So I was there for that. I was there for STS-2 in November. I was at White Sands [Missile Range, White Sands, New Mexico] in Ground Recovery Team for STS-3, and Jack [R.] Lousma landing in the gypsum dust storm. Don [Donald E.] Williams and I were the exchange crew, so we went in and relived Jack and Gordo [C. Gordon Fullerton] after they landed, and rode\n\n Columbia\n\n on into where they parked it, did all those things. That was fun.

[Assistant] That sounds like fun.\n\n Where did you guys stay when you were down at the Cape?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, starting probably the first of January of ’81. Is that right? Do I have the years right? Yes. When did we fly? We flew in April.

[Assistant] In April.

[User] Right. So I was there for that. I was there for STS-2 in November. I was at White Sands [Missile Range, White Sands, New Mexico] in Ground Recovery Team for STS-3, and Jack [R.] Lousma landing in the gypsum dust storm. Don [Donald E.] Williams and I were the exchange crew, so we went in and relived Jack and Gordo [C. Gordon Fullerton] after they landed, and rode\n\n Columbia\n\n on into where they parked it, did all those things. That was fun.

[Assistant] That sounds like fun.\n\n Where did you guys stay when you were down at the Cape?

[User] Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer, who was sort of the team lead down there, had bought a condo, three-bedroom condo, and he would rent out rooms. That was one place. What were some of the other places? That was the one we stayed at mostly in my time frame.

[Assistant] Who were some of the other people besides Overmyer who were working on this project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. So I was there for that. I was there for STS-2 in November. I was at White Sands [Missile Range, White Sands, New Mexico] in Ground Recovery Team for STS-3, and Jack [R.] Lousma landing in the gypsum dust storm. Don [Donald E.] Williams and I were the exchange crew, so we went in and relived Jack and Gordo [C. Gordon Fullerton] after they landed, and rode\n\n Columbia\n\n on into where they parked it, did all those things. That was fun.

[Assistant] That sounds like fun.\n\n Where did you guys stay when you were down at the Cape?

[User] Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer, who was sort of the team lead down there, had bought a condo, three-bedroom condo, and he would rent out rooms. That was one place. What were some of the other places? That was the one we stayed at mostly in my time frame.

[Assistant] Who were some of the other people besides Overmyer who were working on this project?

[User] Ellison [S.] Onizuka, Bo [Karol J.] Bobko was down there; Don Williams; “Ox” [James D.A. van Hoften] was down there; Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan. I think that was my era.

[Assistant] How do you think your career with the Navy helped you in this first on-the-job training assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer, who was sort of the team lead down there, had bought a condo, three-bedroom condo, and he would rent out rooms. That was one place. What were some of the other places? That was the one we stayed at mostly in my time frame.

[Assistant] Who were some of the other people besides Overmyer who were working on this project?

[User] Ellison [S.] Onizuka, Bo [Karol J.] Bobko was down there; Don Williams; “Ox” [James D.A. van Hoften] was down there; Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan. I think that was my era.

[Assistant] How do you think your career with the Navy helped you in this first on-the-job training assignment?

[User] Being familiar and comfortable around complicated systems helps. I wasn’t intimidated by it. Well, that’s not exactly true. The first time we went down to the Cape on our class tour, my reaction when seeing the pad, at seeing the Orbiter and all that is, “My God, this stuff’s too big. It can’t possibly fly.” [laughs] I think that’s a common reaction. I knew how big it was, but it’s different when you actually see it and you’re walking underneath the Orbiter and all this stuff. But having gotten over that, it was kind of fun to be there with the hardware. Everyone enjoys hardware over simulations and paper.

[Assistant] Was there ever a point in the astronaut corps where you were talking about, “Is this thing ever going to fly?” You’d been in the office for a while, the ’78 class had been selected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ellison [S.] Onizuka, Bo [Karol J.] Bobko was down there; Don Williams; “Ox” [James D.A. van Hoften] was down there; Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan. I think that was my era.

[Assistant] How do you think your career with the Navy helped you in this first on-the-job training assignment?

[User] Being familiar and comfortable around complicated systems helps. I wasn’t intimidated by it. Well, that’s not exactly true. The first time we went down to the Cape on our class tour, my reaction when seeing the pad, at seeing the Orbiter and all that is, “My God, this stuff’s too big. It can’t possibly fly.” [laughs] I think that’s a common reaction. I knew how big it was, but it’s different when you actually see it and you’re walking underneath the Orbiter and all this stuff. But having gotten over that, it was kind of fun to be there with the hardware. Everyone enjoys hardware over simulations and paper.

[Assistant] Was there ever a point in the astronaut corps where you were talking about, “Is this thing ever going to fly?” You’d been in the office for a while, the ’78 class had been selected.

[User] No, not so much for us, because we came in and went to work in January, and it flew in April. Of course, the flight rate didn’t pick up as fast as we would like, so there was some of that later. “Don’t fall in love with your payload.” That was the mantra, because in those days it was the policy that the crews flew in order. Seems kind of like a crazy policy now, in retrospect. So if something happened to the payload that was on the flight you were assigned three months before, you learned a new payload and a new mission, rather than slipping with that payload.

[Assistant] That’s crazy.\n\n What impact did the delays for STS-2 have on your position out at the Cape? There were several delays getting that mission off.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Being familiar and comfortable around complicated systems helps. I wasn’t intimidated by it. Well, that’s not exactly true. The first time we went down to the Cape on our class tour, my reaction when seeing the pad, at seeing the Orbiter and all that is, “My God, this stuff’s too big. It can’t possibly fly.” [laughs] I think that’s a common reaction. I knew how big it was, but it’s different when you actually see it and you’re walking underneath the Orbiter and all this stuff. But having gotten over that, it was kind of fun to be there with the hardware. Everyone enjoys hardware over simulations and paper.

[Assistant] Was there ever a point in the astronaut corps where you were talking about, “Is this thing ever going to fly?” You’d been in the office for a while, the ’78 class had been selected.

[User] No, not so much for us, because we came in and went to work in January, and it flew in April. Of course, the flight rate didn’t pick up as fast as we would like, so there was some of that later. “Don’t fall in love with your payload.” That was the mantra, because in those days it was the policy that the crews flew in order. Seems kind of like a crazy policy now, in retrospect. So if something happened to the payload that was on the flight you were assigned three months before, you learned a new payload and a new mission, rather than slipping with that payload.

[Assistant] That’s crazy.\n\n What impact did the delays for STS-2 have on your position out at the Cape? There were several delays getting that mission off.

[User] Actually, I was pretty sick in that time frame. I had a case of mononucleosis and missed, oh, I don’t know, six weeks of work in that time frame. That’s mainly what I remember.

[Assistant] STS-3, you mentioned you were out at White Sands.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not so much for us, because we came in and went to work in January, and it flew in April. Of course, the flight rate didn’t pick up as fast as we would like, so there was some of that later. “Don’t fall in love with your payload.” That was the mantra, because in those days it was the policy that the crews flew in order. Seems kind of like a crazy policy now, in retrospect. So if something happened to the payload that was on the flight you were assigned three months before, you learned a new payload and a new mission, rather than slipping with that payload.

[Assistant] That’s crazy.\n\n What impact did the delays for STS-2 have on your position out at the Cape? There were several delays getting that mission off.

[User] Actually, I was pretty sick in that time frame. I had a case of mononucleosis and missed, oh, I don’t know, six weeks of work in that time frame. That’s mainly what I remember.

[Assistant] STS-3, you mentioned you were out at White Sands.

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that landing? Were you there for the first few days when they were talking about landing out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that landing? Were you there for the first few days when they were talking about landing out there?

[User] Yes, we were. It was pretty clear they were going to have to land at White Sands because of the rains in California, and either one day or two days before the landing, we were out doing a practice convoy, so the convoy, it’s I don’t know, ten vehicles or something like that, and there’s a dust storm you wouldn’t believe. We were stuck out there with zero visibility, kind of leaning over at about a 45-degree angle from the wind, and I’m thinking, “And they’re going to land an Orbiter here tomorrow?” [laughs] It was hard to believe. In fact, it cleared up the next day and it was a nice clear day, although I’m told that many years later, picking up pieces from East Texas of\n\n Columbia\n\n , they were finding gypsum from White Sands.

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Some of that stuff got in there and never got out. I don’t know if that’s true, but possible.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I know that, what was it, last year they were talking about landing the Orbiter in New Mexico. I thought that would be a sight to see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were. It was pretty clear they were going to have to land at White Sands because of the rains in California, and either one day or two days before the landing, we were out doing a practice convoy, so the convoy, it’s I don’t know, ten vehicles or something like that, and there’s a dust storm you wouldn’t believe. We were stuck out there with zero visibility, kind of leaning over at about a 45-degree angle from the wind, and I’m thinking, “And they’re going to land an Orbiter here tomorrow?” [laughs] It was hard to believe. In fact, it cleared up the next day and it was a nice clear day, although I’m told that many years later, picking up pieces from East Texas of\n\n Columbia\n\n , they were finding gypsum from White Sands.

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Some of that stuff got in there and never got out. I don’t know if that’s true, but possible.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I know that, what was it, last year they were talking about landing the Orbiter in New Mexico. I thought that would be a sight to see.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I mean, it’s beautiful out there with the white sand.\n\n What was it like? Were there a lot of people out there to greet the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of that stuff got in there and never got out. I don’t know if that’s true, but possible.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I know that, what was it, last year they were talking about landing the Orbiter in New Mexico. I thought that would be a sight to see.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I mean, it’s beautiful out there with the white sand.\n\n What was it like? Were there a lot of people out there to greet the crew?

[User] No, not really. It’s kind of a hard place to get to and not designed for public viewing. I don’t really know how many were really there, because I was inside the Orbiter most of the time. But, no, it was kind of a remote operation.

[Assistant] Your biosheet also says that you specialized in the Orbiter computer system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I mean, it’s beautiful out there with the white sand.\n\n What was it like? Were there a lot of people out there to greet the crew?

[User] No, not really. It’s kind of a hard place to get to and not designed for public viewing. I don’t really know how many were really there, because I was inside the Orbiter most of the time. But, no, it was kind of a remote operation.

[Assistant] Your biosheet also says that you specialized in the Orbiter computer system.

[User] So my job after my stint as a Cape Crusader was, I was the astronaut representative to the Orbiter Software Control Board, or actually it was the Avionics Software Control Board. So I relieved David Leestma of that job; he had it, then I had it. I think Dale [A.] Gardner had it before him. So I guess Navy Mission Specialists were kind of on that track. But that was a fascinating job because I got to really understand how the Orbiter worked. It’s a software-driven machine. So we were involved in all the discussions about should we do this change or that change, and what’s the risk of doing the change versus the benefit. So that was a very rewarding job. I liked that a lot. Taught me a lot.

[Assistant] And did you work in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory] or FSL [Flight Systems Laboratory] at Downey [California]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. It’s kind of a hard place to get to and not designed for public viewing. I don’t really know how many were really there, because I was inside the Orbiter most of the time. But, no, it was kind of a remote operation.

[Assistant] Your biosheet also says that you specialized in the Orbiter computer system.

[User] So my job after my stint as a Cape Crusader was, I was the astronaut representative to the Orbiter Software Control Board, or actually it was the Avionics Software Control Board. So I relieved David Leestma of that job; he had it, then I had it. I think Dale [A.] Gardner had it before him. So I guess Navy Mission Specialists were kind of on that track. But that was a fascinating job because I got to really understand how the Orbiter worked. It’s a software-driven machine. So we were involved in all the discussions about should we do this change or that change, and what’s the risk of doing the change versus the benefit. So that was a very rewarding job. I liked that a lot. Taught me a lot.

[Assistant] And did you work in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory] or FSL [Flight Systems Laboratory] at Downey [California]?

[User] SAIL more than FSL. In that time frame I think FSL was on its way out by then. We didn’t have much to do with that.

[Assistant] And were there other astronauts assigned to this task while you were working assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my job after my stint as a Cape Crusader was, I was the astronaut representative to the Orbiter Software Control Board, or actually it was the Avionics Software Control Board. So I relieved David Leestma of that job; he had it, then I had it. I think Dale [A.] Gardner had it before him. So I guess Navy Mission Specialists were kind of on that track. But that was a fascinating job because I got to really understand how the Orbiter worked. It’s a software-driven machine. So we were involved in all the discussions about should we do this change or that change, and what’s the risk of doing the change versus the benefit. So that was a very rewarding job. I liked that a lot. Taught me a lot.

[Assistant] And did you work in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory] or FSL [Flight Systems Laboratory] at Downey [California]?

[User] SAIL more than FSL. In that time frame I think FSL was on its way out by then. We didn’t have much to do with that.

[Assistant] And were there other astronauts assigned to this task while you were working assignment?

[User] No, that specific job of being the representative to the Control Board was a one-person job. We had, I don’t know, three or four assigned to SAIL, but that was a little different job, really.

[Assistant] Did you have any other duties before your first flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] SAIL more than FSL. In that time frame I think FSL was on its way out by then. We didn’t have much to do with that.

[Assistant] And were there other astronauts assigned to this task while you were working assignment?

[User] No, that specific job of being the representative to the Control Board was a one-person job. We had, I don’t know, three or four assigned to SAIL, but that was a little different job, really.

[Assistant] Did you have any other duties before your first flight?

[User] I don’t think so. I think I went from that assignment to that flight crew assignment.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about how you found out you were selected for your first flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that specific job of being the representative to the Control Board was a one-person job. We had, I don’t know, three or four assigned to SAIL, but that was a little different job, really.

[Assistant] Did you have any other duties before your first flight?

[User] I don’t think so. I think I went from that assignment to that flight crew assignment.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about how you found out you were selected for your first flight.

[User] I was on vacation. I had never taken a two-week vacation, so I pressed and pressed and got all the work done and flew—we had a little airplane then. Flew to Colorado, my home town, and then I came down with walking pneumonia when we arrived and finally checked myself into the hospital and was there for a week. I think that’s when I got the call.

[Assistant] Not such great circumstances, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. I think I went from that assignment to that flight crew assignment.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about how you found out you were selected for your first flight.

[User] I was on vacation. I had never taken a two-week vacation, so I pressed and pressed and got all the work done and flew—we had a little airplane then. Flew to Colorado, my home town, and then I came down with walking pneumonia when we arrived and finally checked myself into the hospital and was there for a week. I think that’s when I got the call.

[Assistant] Not such great circumstances, huh?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] So you were obviously pretty happy, though, that had been selected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was on vacation. I had never taken a two-week vacation, so I pressed and pressed and got all the work done and flew—we had a little airplane then. Flew to Colorado, my home town, and then I came down with walking pneumonia when we arrived and finally checked myself into the hospital and was there for a week. I think that’s when I got the call.

[Assistant] Not such great circumstances, huh?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] So you were obviously pretty happy, though, that had been selected.

[User] That was great. Didn’t see that coming. To be on Joe Henry Engle’s crew, which was great, Dick [Richard O.] Covey as the pilot, and a great crew besides that.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship? You had worked with Joe Engle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] So you were obviously pretty happy, though, that had been selected.

[User] That was great. Didn’t see that coming. To be on Joe Henry Engle’s crew, which was great, Dick [Richard O.] Covey as the pilot, and a great crew besides that.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship? You had worked with Joe Engle.

[User] Worked with Joe at the Cape. Ox a little bit at the Cape, Ox van Hoften. Bill [William F.] Fisher was in my class. Hadn’t worked with him before, but knew him well. And me. So, very, I guess by some standards, a small crew and obviously stale, pale, and male. But we had a great time. The training was fun for that mission. It was great mission. Turned out to be greater than we had originally planned. I don’t remember our original payload. Our original payload was a TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite], must have been, because I remember going to Seattle [Washington] for a technical meeting, and there was another crew that also had a very similar payload, and Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck was commander of that. We had a race to get to Seattle from Houston, and we beat them. That was a big deal. We thought about taking off the travel pod on the T-38 to see if we could go faster and do without our clothes, because winning was important. I think we finally decided we didn’t need to do that, but we were prepared to drop our travel pods in El Paso [Texas] so we could make it one leg from El Paso to Seattle. Instead, we had to do El Paso to Las Vegas [Nevada] to Seattle. [laughs] That was great.

[Assistant] Now I understand from Dick Covey and from Ox van Hoften that you basically came up with this plan to go save an ailing satellite, you and Ox, when you were working in the Reserves. Can you tell me your recollection of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was naïve then. I didn’t know how hard the bureaucracy was. Today it would just astonish me that that would happen. But, no. Actually, we had a pretty narrow view of how NASA worked, I think, as crewmen back then. I didn’t appreciate the big contractor team that was necessary to make all this work. I knew who built what, of course, but we really didn’t have the—today the Internet and\n\n Space News\n\n and just the whole culture is one of much more data sharing, and you know what’s going on, you know what the problems are. Back then, you didn’t know what the problems were until they bubbled up to kind of the flight-readiness level, maybe a little bit before, but I think that’s different today. And I wish we’d had a little more knowledge back then, or maybe not. Maybe we would have worried a lot more than we did.

[Assistant] How did doing things sort of on the fly impact the training for this mission?

[User] A lot of the things we couldn’t train, especially that kind of mission. Actually, that made training more fun, because there was less rote learning. You had to train for skills and not for tasks, because you weren’t sure how it would go.

[Assistant] Did your crew come up with any sort of tools to see that the mission would succeed?

[User] We built special handling tools and we were involved in the design of those, and they built them all on site in Building 9. So, a handling bar that was attached to the satellite. The satellite was the size of a Cadillac Escalade, probably.

[Assistant] That’s pretty big.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of the things we couldn’t train, especially that kind of mission. Actually, that made training more fun, because there was less rote learning. You had to train for skills and not for tasks, because you weren’t sure how it would go.

[Assistant] Did your crew come up with any sort of tools to see that the mission would succeed?

[User] We built special handling tools and we were involved in the design of those, and they built them all on site in Building 9. So, a handling bar that was attached to the satellite. The satellite was the size of a Cadillac Escalade, probably.

[Assistant] That’s pretty big.

[User] Weighed about—well, maybe even heavier, probably heavier. Weighed about, I don’t know, ten thousand pounds, five tons, something like that. It’s pretty big. So we designed a bar that would be attached. I guess that was the main mechanism. There was a grapple fixture that Ox had to connect so I could grab it with the arm. Then there was essentially a computer package that was bolted on—I don’t know how we attached it—that was essentially the way we bypassed the failed circuitry inside. There was a radio receiver that was put down by the rocket motor to ignite the rocket motor after we were safely away. They did that by ground command. So those were some of the pieces that we had to deal with.

[Assistant] The launch of this mission was scrubbed a few times.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We built special handling tools and we were involved in the design of those, and they built them all on site in Building 9. So, a handling bar that was attached to the satellite. The satellite was the size of a Cadillac Escalade, probably.

[Assistant] That’s pretty big.

[User] Weighed about—well, maybe even heavier, probably heavier. Weighed about, I don’t know, ten thousand pounds, five tons, something like that. It’s pretty big. So we designed a bar that would be attached. I guess that was the main mechanism. There was a grapple fixture that Ox had to connect so I could grab it with the arm. Then there was essentially a computer package that was bolted on—I don’t know how we attached it—that was essentially the way we bypassed the failed circuitry inside. There was a radio receiver that was put down by the rocket motor to ignite the rocket motor after we were safely away. They did that by ground command. So those were some of the pieces that we had to deal with.

[Assistant] The launch of this mission was scrubbed a few times.

[User] Three. Two. Well, scrubbed twice. We flew the third time.

[Assistant] What did you guys do to pass the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, probably not.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] We were talking about launch. So I described this first launch as it seemed to take forever. My second launch was the first flight after the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident, with Rick Hauck and crew. That flight had taken so long to finally get ready and go through all the extra certification steps and everything, although we didn’t have any launch delays. We only suited up once. I think we stayed on the pad for an extra thirty minutes or so for upper-level winds. But that launch happened very quickly. Just everything flew by. That seemed to take four minutes. I don’t know why, it just did.\n\n Then my last launch, on\n\n Columbia\n\n , was just like being in a simulator. That was a normal eight and a half minutes and things happened like they should. It was all differences in my attitude, I think.

[Assistant] I guess you get acclimated.

[User] Yes. STS-26, there had been a lot of scrutiny on that flight, you know. It was about as safe as flying a Shuttle could be. I think we were just so anxious to get gone, it seemed to go faster.

[Assistant] On your first flight, how did you handle issues like sleeping arrangements and when you would eat meals, things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were talking about launch. So I described this first launch as it seemed to take forever. My second launch was the first flight after the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident, with Rick Hauck and crew. That flight had taken so long to finally get ready and go through all the extra certification steps and everything, although we didn’t have any launch delays. We only suited up once. I think we stayed on the pad for an extra thirty minutes or so for upper-level winds. But that launch happened very quickly. Just everything flew by. That seemed to take four minutes. I don’t know why, it just did.\n\n Then my last launch, on\n\n Columbia\n\n , was just like being in a simulator. That was a normal eight and a half minutes and things happened like they should. It was all differences in my attitude, I think.

[Assistant] I guess you get acclimated.

[User] Yes. STS-26, there had been a lot of scrutiny on that flight, you know. It was about as safe as flying a Shuttle could be. I think we were just so anxious to get gone, it seemed to go faster.

[Assistant] On your first flight, how did you handle issues like sleeping arrangements and when you would eat meals, things like that?

[User] The first flight, I don’t remember having any strong meal discipline; you ate when you were hungry, fixed your own thing. Slept where you wanted to. In fact, if you go over to the Visitors Center and go to the mockup of the Shuttle middeck, there’s on the wall a picture, a poster, of one of the astronaut sleeping bags. It’s strapped up to the wall, because that’s where they were launched. You’re supposed to unstrap them and get them out and get in them. I just got behind it, because I liked the feeling of that pushing me against the wall. So if you go over there you’ll see this hand [gestures], that’s all you see, and it’s that hand. So that’s where I slept on that flight.

[Assistant] I’ll have to check it out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. STS-26, there had been a lot of scrutiny on that flight, you know. It was about as safe as flying a Shuttle could be. I think we were just so anxious to get gone, it seemed to go faster.

[Assistant] On your first flight, how did you handle issues like sleeping arrangements and when you would eat meals, things like that?

[User] The first flight, I don’t remember having any strong meal discipline; you ate when you were hungry, fixed your own thing. Slept where you wanted to. In fact, if you go over to the Visitors Center and go to the mockup of the Shuttle middeck, there’s on the wall a picture, a poster, of one of the astronaut sleeping bags. It’s strapped up to the wall, because that’s where they were launched. You’re supposed to unstrap them and get them out and get in them. I just got behind it, because I liked the feeling of that pushing me against the wall. So if you go over there you’ll see this hand [gestures], that’s all you see, and it’s that hand. So that’s where I slept on that flight.

[Assistant] I’ll have to check it out.

[User] Yes. It’s easy to take naps, because you just relax and you float around, but the trouble is you end up with your head next to the toilet or, worse, next to the teletype. That was before e-mail, so we had this very noisy teletype thing to get our flight plan changes, and that would wake you up if you were too close to that.

[Assistant] I understand you guys got to take Walkmans up and take music with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first flight, I don’t remember having any strong meal discipline; you ate when you were hungry, fixed your own thing. Slept where you wanted to. In fact, if you go over to the Visitors Center and go to the mockup of the Shuttle middeck, there’s on the wall a picture, a poster, of one of the astronaut sleeping bags. It’s strapped up to the wall, because that’s where they were launched. You’re supposed to unstrap them and get them out and get in them. I just got behind it, because I liked the feeling of that pushing me against the wall. So if you go over there you’ll see this hand [gestures], that’s all you see, and it’s that hand. So that’s where I slept on that flight.

[Assistant] I’ll have to check it out.

[User] Yes. It’s easy to take naps, because you just relax and you float around, but the trouble is you end up with your head next to the toilet or, worse, next to the teletype. That was before e-mail, so we had this very noisy teletype thing to get our flight plan changes, and that would wake you up if you were too close to that.

[Assistant] I understand you guys got to take Walkmans up and take music with you.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] Any special music that you took with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] Any special music that you took with you?

[User] Well, yes, I guess you know that I’m a big country music fan, and specifically Willie Nelson fan. I don’t know who arranged this, can’t remember, but we used to have wake-up music—oh, you asked the Walkman question. So I had a nice selection of country music, a lot of Willie Nelson. But the cool thing about that was we used to have wake-up music that was picked out by the CapCom, the Capsule Communicator, in the Flight Control Team, and it was kind of tuned to the crew’s interests, so on the second or third day of that mission, the wake-up music was Willie Nelson and the Geezinslaw Brothers singing about—and I can’t remember the song; I’ve got it somewhere. But it was about our mission. They had written late one night. I don’t know what the connection was that got them to do that, but it was done on kind of short notice and they had to get it over to Mission Control in a hurry, so we had somebody from Mission Control go to Hobby Airport and pick it up from the runner that they had bring it over. This won’t mean anything to you, perhaps, but the runner was named Earl Campbell.

[Assistant] No.

[User] So Earl was All-American running back and star of the Oilers in that time frame. [laughs]

[Assistant] That’s kind of cool.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, I guess you know that I’m a big country music fan, and specifically Willie Nelson fan. I don’t know who arranged this, can’t remember, but we used to have wake-up music—oh, you asked the Walkman question. So I had a nice selection of country music, a lot of Willie Nelson. But the cool thing about that was we used to have wake-up music that was picked out by the CapCom, the Capsule Communicator, in the Flight Control Team, and it was kind of tuned to the crew’s interests, so on the second or third day of that mission, the wake-up music was Willie Nelson and the Geezinslaw Brothers singing about—and I can’t remember the song; I’ve got it somewhere. But it was about our mission. They had written late one night. I don’t know what the connection was that got them to do that, but it was done on kind of short notice and they had to get it over to Mission Control in a hurry, so we had somebody from Mission Control go to Hobby Airport and pick it up from the runner that they had bring it over. This won’t mean anything to you, perhaps, but the runner was named Earl Campbell.

[Assistant] No.

[User] So Earl was All-American running back and star of the Oilers in that time frame. [laughs]

[Assistant] That’s kind of cool.

[User] Yes, it was cool.

[Assistant] Who was your CapCom for the flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So Earl was All-American running back and star of the Oilers in that time frame. [laughs]

[Assistant] That’s kind of cool.

[User] Yes, it was cool.

[Assistant] Who was your CapCom for the flight?

[User] [Charles] Lacy Veach. I think Leestma. I think David. Those are the two I remember.

[Assistant] And they’re the ones in charge of picking the music?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was cool.

[Assistant] Who was your CapCom for the flight?

[User] [Charles] Lacy Veach. I think Leestma. I think David. Those are the two I remember.

[Assistant] And they’re the ones in charge of picking the music?

[User] Yes. I don’t know how they got that to happen, but as a result of that, later, about a year later, Covey and I flew over to—maybe it was a couple of years later, we flew over to Austin [Texas] and played golf with Willie on his golf course. That was a real treat.

[Assistant] All the astronauts always talk about the people that they got to meet when they were on the crews; the president and football players and things like that. I think Dick Covey went over to California to film\n\n Home Improvement\n\n .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Charles] Lacy Veach. I think Leestma. I think David. Those are the two I remember.

[Assistant] And they’re the ones in charge of picking the music?

[User] Yes. I don’t know how they got that to happen, but as a result of that, later, about a year later, Covey and I flew over to—maybe it was a couple of years later, we flew over to Austin [Texas] and played golf with Willie on his golf course. That was a real treat.

[Assistant] All the astronauts always talk about the people that they got to meet when they were on the crews; the president and football players and things like that. I think Dick Covey went over to California to film\n\n Home Improvement\n\n .

[User] Yes, he did on one of his Hubble flights.

[Assistant] Just kind of interesting, those connections that you would make as a flight crew member.\n\n Why don’t you tell me about the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and the role that you played in the recovery.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don’t know how they got that to happen, but as a result of that, later, about a year later, Covey and I flew over to—maybe it was a couple of years later, we flew over to Austin [Texas] and played golf with Willie on his golf course. That was a real treat.

[Assistant] All the astronauts always talk about the people that they got to meet when they were on the crews; the president and football players and things like that. I think Dick Covey went over to California to film\n\n Home Improvement\n\n .

[User] Yes, he did on one of his Hubble flights.

[Assistant] Just kind of interesting, those connections that you would make as a flight crew member.\n\n Why don’t you tell me about the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and the role that you played in the recovery.

[User] So it was two days of EVA. The first day was rendezvousing with this satellite that had failed, stranded in low Earth orbit. So I’m the robot arm operator and the valet, so Bill Fisher and Jim van Hoften were the EVA crewmen. My job was to get them prepared, make sure that their suits were all functioning properly, get them in the airlock, and then as we approached the satellite, I went upstairs to the flight deck and got the robot arm activated, and then as soon as Ox got outside—Jim van Hoften—he installed a foot platform at the end of the arm, I grabbed it. He got into that and then I maneuvered him up high above the Orbiter as we fly toward this satellite, and then his job was to reach out and grab it, as we had postulated six months earlier in the guard shack out at Ellington. So that was cool. That was surreal, really.\n\n Everything didn’t go real smooth on that approach. I don’t know if you’ve talked to Engle, but you’ve talked to Covey, obviously.

[Assistant] Yes, talked to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was two days of EVA. The first day was rendezvousing with this satellite that had failed, stranded in low Earth orbit. So I’m the robot arm operator and the valet, so Bill Fisher and Jim van Hoften were the EVA crewmen. My job was to get them prepared, make sure that their suits were all functioning properly, get them in the airlock, and then as we approached the satellite, I went upstairs to the flight deck and got the robot arm activated, and then as soon as Ox got outside—Jim van Hoften—he installed a foot platform at the end of the arm, I grabbed it. He got into that and then I maneuvered him up high above the Orbiter as we fly toward this satellite, and then his job was to reach out and grab it, as we had postulated six months earlier in the guard shack out at Ellington. So that was cool. That was surreal, really.\n\n Everything didn’t go real smooth on that approach. I don’t know if you’ve talked to Engle, but you’ve talked to Covey, obviously.

[Assistant] Yes, talked to—

[User] And Ox.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Did you get Engle yet?

[Assistant] We did. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, the only person we haven’t talked to is Fish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Ox.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Did you get Engle yet?

[Assistant] We did. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, the only person we haven’t talked to is Fish.

[User] So when the Orbiter’s flying in space, it uses these big, really massive control jets. They’re hard to describe. The Orbiter’s too big to actually fly. They spit out a lot of this exhaust when they fire. Coming in, one of those exhaust plumes hit that satellite and got it tumbling, and so now we’re flying up closer, and this thing’s tumbling, and Joe’s instinct is to try to match it, and Covey and I both yelled at him, “No, let Ox do it.” And so we just flew up to it and let Ox—and I say it’s tumbling, but I don’t mean real fast. It isn’t stable. So Ox reached out and grabbed the—it’s really the hard points that were used to attach it to the payload bay when it launched. Managed to grab those and get it slowly damped out and under control. But that was pretty exciting, seeing that thing floating around and wondering if we’d catch it.\n\n One of the images I have etched in my brain is the sun is either probably just about to go down, and there’s this satellite and there’s Ox kind of looking at it, and Fish is on the work platform on the payload bay rail, looking at this thing as it sort of tumbles out there, and we’re wondering, what next? Fortunately, or unfortunately, I don’t know, that was the days before we had continuous communication with the ground, so half the orbit you could talk to them and half the orbit you were out of contact, and this was all out of contact from there out.

[Assistant] So they were surprised when you called back and said—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you get Engle yet?

[Assistant] We did. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, the only person we haven’t talked to is Fish.

[User] So when the Orbiter’s flying in space, it uses these big, really massive control jets. They’re hard to describe. The Orbiter’s too big to actually fly. They spit out a lot of this exhaust when they fire. Coming in, one of those exhaust plumes hit that satellite and got it tumbling, and so now we’re flying up closer, and this thing’s tumbling, and Joe’s instinct is to try to match it, and Covey and I both yelled at him, “No, let Ox do it.” And so we just flew up to it and let Ox—and I say it’s tumbling, but I don’t mean real fast. It isn’t stable. So Ox reached out and grabbed the—it’s really the hard points that were used to attach it to the payload bay when it launched. Managed to grab those and get it slowly damped out and under control. But that was pretty exciting, seeing that thing floating around and wondering if we’d catch it.\n\n One of the images I have etched in my brain is the sun is either probably just about to go down, and there’s this satellite and there’s Ox kind of looking at it, and Fish is on the work platform on the payload bay rail, looking at this thing as it sort of tumbles out there, and we’re wondering, what next? Fortunately, or unfortunately, I don’t know, that was the days before we had continuous communication with the ground, so half the orbit you could talk to them and half the orbit you were out of contact, and this was all out of contact from there out.

[Assistant] So they were surprised when you called back and said—

[User] I think by the time we got the thing captured during a loss of signal, so it was all stable, except we had burned a lot of gas. [laughs] More than we were supposed to.

[Assistant] The rest of the EVA went well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think by the time we got the thing captured during a loss of signal, so it was all stable, except we had burned a lot of gas. [laughs] More than we were supposed to.

[Assistant] The rest of the EVA went well?

[User] Yes. I mean, it was slower than probably we had simulated, because the robot arm was a single-joint operation, so we had to be very deliberate about moving the one joint at a time, but we worked out way through that, got it handed down to Fisher, who installed the handling bar and then he held it while Ox put on a grapple fixture. Dropped Ox off and went up and grabbed the satellite, and that was really the high tense part of the mission. Once I had it stable on the end of the arm, then it was going to be okay. So we did about half the work that day and parked it overnight, went out the next day and finished the job.

[Assistant] What was the feeling in the crew cabin once the EVA had been completed, and you had finished all of the tasks you’d set out to do?

[User] Wow. I mean, we were pretty glad. Of course, it was time to get home then. There’s five or six consecutive miracles that have to happen before you get home safely, so we were sort of focused on those.

[Assistant] What were some of those tasks that you focused on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I mean, it was slower than probably we had simulated, because the robot arm was a single-joint operation, so we had to be very deliberate about moving the one joint at a time, but we worked out way through that, got it handed down to Fisher, who installed the handling bar and then he held it while Ox put on a grapple fixture. Dropped Ox off and went up and grabbed the satellite, and that was really the high tense part of the mission. Once I had it stable on the end of the arm, then it was going to be okay. So we did about half the work that day and parked it overnight, went out the next day and finished the job.

[Assistant] What was the feeling in the crew cabin once the EVA had been completed, and you had finished all of the tasks you’d set out to do?

[User] Wow. I mean, we were pretty glad. Of course, it was time to get home then. There’s five or six consecutive miracles that have to happen before you get home safely, so we were sort of focused on those.

[Assistant] What were some of those tasks that you focused on?

[User] Well, getting the cabin all stowed is a big deal, and then just executing all the steps to slow down, get out of orbit, get the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines burning about three minutes. You lose about 1 percent of your velocity. That’s enough to start lowering down and scraping on the top of the atmosphere. Going through that entry was a spectacular thing.

[Assistant] You weren’t sitting on the middeck. You were sitting upstairs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wow. I mean, we were pretty glad. Of course, it was time to get home then. There’s five or six consecutive miracles that have to happen before you get home safely, so we were sort of focused on those.

[Assistant] What were some of those tasks that you focused on?

[User] Well, getting the cabin all stowed is a big deal, and then just executing all the steps to slow down, get out of orbit, get the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines burning about three minutes. You lose about 1 percent of your velocity. That’s enough to start lowering down and scraping on the top of the atmosphere. Going through that entry was a spectacular thing.

[Assistant] You weren’t sitting on the middeck. You were sitting upstairs?

[User] I was in the middle, upstairs, looking out the window. Ox was right by me, looking out the window. He probably told you that.

[Assistant] I think so, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, getting the cabin all stowed is a big deal, and then just executing all the steps to slow down, get out of orbit, get the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines burning about three minutes. You lose about 1 percent of your velocity. That’s enough to start lowering down and scraping on the top of the atmosphere. Going through that entry was a spectacular thing.

[Assistant] You weren’t sitting on the middeck. You were sitting upstairs?

[User] I was in the middle, upstairs, looking out the window. Ox was right by me, looking out the window. He probably told you that.

[Assistant] I think so, yes.

[User] He said, “Well, I’ll go downstairs in time for landing.” He didn’t.

[Assistant] Did you take any photos of landing, or you just sort of took it all in as you were going down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the middle, upstairs, looking out the window. Ox was right by me, looking out the window. He probably told you that.

[Assistant] I think so, yes.

[User] He said, “Well, I’ll go downstairs in time for landing.” He didn’t.

[Assistant] Did you take any photos of landing, or you just sort of took it all in as you were going down?

[User] I got some photos of the plasma wake, if you will. As we come ripping through the atmosphere at Mach 25, it just shatters the atoms and makes this bright orange plasma trail. You can actually see it from the ground. It’s like an orange glow-in-the-dark kind of chalk drawn across the dark sky that you could see on a nice clear night. So that is just an awesome fireworks show. I got a couple shots of that out the window before we got down too low.

[Assistant] Once you finally were on Earth, and you opened up the crew cabin and stepped outside, what are your recollections?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, for that one. My kids were pretty little then. Kenneth was four and Kathy was not two yet, barely. Almost two. No, one and a half. One and a half.

[Assistant] Were you ready to go right back up? Some of the folks we’ve talked to said they were ready to go the next day.

[User] Oh yes. I had a flight assignment before I landed. A month before we flew or something like that, we got assigned to the Ulysses Centaur flight, which would have flown in May of ’86 on\n\n Challenger\n\n . So when we saw\n\n Challenger\n\n explode in January 28th—before that lifted off, I remember thinking, “Well, [Frances R.] Scobee, take care of that spaceship, because we need it in a couple of months.” So we would have been on the next flight of\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[Assistant] Any concerns?

[User] Well, we weren’t then, but, yes, I guess we should have been.

[Assistant] I think I read someplace that your wife was working at the Johnson Space Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I had a flight assignment before I landed. A month before we flew or something like that, we got assigned to the Ulysses Centaur flight, which would have flown in May of ’86 on\n\n Challenger\n\n . So when we saw\n\n Challenger\n\n explode in January 28th—before that lifted off, I remember thinking, “Well, [Frances R.] Scobee, take care of that spaceship, because we need it in a couple of months.” So we would have been on the next flight of\n\n Challenger\n\n .

[Assistant] Any concerns?

[User] Well, we weren’t then, but, yes, I guess we should have been.

[Assistant] I think I read someplace that your wife was working at the Johnson Space Center.

[User] She was. She was a flight controller. Now ex.

[Assistant] Did she have any concerns about you flying on board the Space Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we weren’t then, but, yes, I guess we should have been.

[Assistant] I think I read someplace that your wife was working at the Johnson Space Center.

[User] She was. She was a flight controller. Now ex.

[Assistant] Did she have any concerns about you flying on board the Space Shuttle?

[User] Probably. I don’t know. But she was part of the team, so it was her mission as well as mine.

[Assistant] Tell us about your public relation tours after you came back from your first mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was. She was a flight controller. Now ex.

[Assistant] Did she have any concerns about you flying on board the Space Shuttle?

[User] Probably. I don’t know. But she was part of the team, so it was her mission as well as mine.

[Assistant] Tell us about your public relation tours after you came back from your first mission.

[User] Well, the most fun one was I went to my little hometown in eastern Colorado and they had Mike Lounge Day, and they had a parade. There were about a hundred floats in the parade. There were more people in the parade than there were in the town. I think they had to take turns watching the parade and being in the parade. That was pretty cool.

[Assistant] Did you get the key to the city and all that stuff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. I don’t know. But she was part of the team, so it was her mission as well as mine.

[Assistant] Tell us about your public relation tours after you came back from your first mission.

[User] Well, the most fun one was I went to my little hometown in eastern Colorado and they had Mike Lounge Day, and they had a parade. There were about a hundred floats in the parade. There were more people in the parade than there were in the town. I think they had to take turns watching the parade and being in the parade. That was pretty cool.

[Assistant] Did you get the key to the city and all that stuff?

[User] Oh yes. A street named after me. There are not a lot of streets, but—.

[Assistant] How big is the city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. A street named after me. There are not a lot of streets, but—.

[Assistant] How big is the city?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. Three thousand people, maybe.

[Assistant] Sounds fun.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] You had mentioned that you were assigned to another mission before you flew, which was [STS] 61-F, which was the Centaur mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don’t know. Three thousand people, maybe.

[Assistant] Sounds fun.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] You had mentioned that you were assigned to another mission before you flew, which was [STS] 61-F, which was the Centaur mission.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was there any discussion amongst the crew that perhaps NASA was putting you at risk, since you were going to be flying a liquid rocket?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] You had mentioned that you were assigned to another mission before you flew, which was [STS] 61-F, which was the Centaur mission.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was there any discussion amongst the crew that perhaps NASA was putting you at risk, since you were going to be flying a liquid rocket?

[User] Oh, we were very worried about it. We were involved in all the design reviews, the safety reviews, developing procedures for getting rid of that stage if we had a problem during launch. So that was a big concern, yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever approach John Young or George Abbey or Rick Hauck at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Was there any discussion amongst the crew that perhaps NASA was putting you at risk, since you were going to be flying a liquid rocket?

[User] Oh, we were very worried about it. We were involved in all the design reviews, the safety reviews, developing procedures for getting rid of that stage if we had a problem during launch. So that was a big concern, yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever approach John Young or George Abbey or Rick Hauck at that point?

[User] No, we assumed we could solve all these problems. We were still basically bulletproof. Until\n\n Challenger\n\n , we just thought we were bulletproof and the things would always work, some details to work out, but I guess that was my attitude, anyway. It was a challenging mission, it was a privilege to be assigned to it, important mission, I thought, so, we just had to work it out, was our attitude.

[Assistant] How closely were you working with the folks out at Lewis Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] and the other contractors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we were very worried about it. We were involved in all the design reviews, the safety reviews, developing procedures for getting rid of that stage if we had a problem during launch. So that was a big concern, yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever approach John Young or George Abbey or Rick Hauck at that point?

[User] No, we assumed we could solve all these problems. We were still basically bulletproof. Until\n\n Challenger\n\n , we just thought we were bulletproof and the things would always work, some details to work out, but I guess that was my attitude, anyway. It was a challenging mission, it was a privilege to be assigned to it, important mission, I thought, so, we just had to work it out, was our attitude.

[Assistant] How closely were you working with the folks out at Lewis Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] and the other contractors?

[User] Very close. Very close. In fact, they probably blamed us for getting that mission canceled, but we really weren’t aggressive about that. We expressed some concerns about adequacy of the software or making sure we had the right procedures, but we thought it would work.

[Assistant] Were you surprised when [James C.] Fletcher finally decided to cancel the Shuttle’s Centaur program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very close. Very close. In fact, they probably blamed us for getting that mission canceled, but we really weren’t aggressive about that. We expressed some concerns about adequacy of the software or making sure we had the right procedures, but we thought it would work.

[Assistant] Were you surprised when [James C.] Fletcher finally decided to cancel the Shuttle’s Centaur program?

[User] After the accident?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No. After the accident, it was a different environment, different willingness to take risks, different—because another accident would have killed the program forever. So, no, I wasn’t surprised.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement with the crew of STS-41 that eventually ended up flying the Ulysses spacecraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After the accident?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No. After the accident, it was a different environment, different willingness to take risks, different—because another accident would have killed the program forever. So, no, I wasn’t surprised.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement with the crew of STS-41 that eventually ended up flying the Ulysses spacecraft?

[User] No. No, by then I was off working station design, I think, Station Freedom.

[Assistant] Where were you when you heard about the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. After the accident, it was a different environment, different willingness to take risks, different—because another accident would have killed the program forever. So, no, I wasn’t surprised.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement with the crew of STS-41 that eventually ended up flying the Ulysses spacecraft?

[User] No. No, by then I was off working station design, I think, Station Freedom.

[Assistant] Where were you when you heard about the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident?

[User] I don’t remember if it was a training class. It was a flight procedures review, reviewing the Centaur abort procedures that we might have to exercise in May, when we flew that mission on\n\n Challenger\n\n . So we stopped the meeting to watch on the monitor in the room, watched the launch.

[Assistant] And what did you do immediately after you saw that the crew had been lost and the\n\n Challenger\n\n as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, by then I was off working station design, I think, Station Freedom.

[Assistant] Where were you when you heard about the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident?

[User] I don’t remember if it was a training class. It was a flight procedures review, reviewing the Centaur abort procedures that we might have to exercise in May, when we flew that mission on\n\n Challenger\n\n . So we stopped the meeting to watch on the monitor in the room, watched the launch.

[Assistant] And what did you do immediately after you saw that the crew had been lost and the\n\n Challenger\n\n as well?

[User] So it was obvious when the thing blew apart. Nobody said a word. I think we all just filed out. My wife was due to fly in from a trip she’d had to California within an hour and a half of that, so I decided to drive up to Intercontinental [Airport, Houston, Texas] and meet her. So that’s what I did.

[Assistant] Did you have any responsibilities in the investigation or the recovery?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember if it was a training class. It was a flight procedures review, reviewing the Centaur abort procedures that we might have to exercise in May, when we flew that mission on\n\n Challenger\n\n . So we stopped the meeting to watch on the monitor in the room, watched the launch.

[Assistant] And what did you do immediately after you saw that the crew had been lost and the\n\n Challenger\n\n as well?

[User] So it was obvious when the thing blew apart. Nobody said a word. I think we all just filed out. My wife was due to fly in from a trip she’d had to California within an hour and a half of that, so I decided to drive up to Intercontinental [Airport, Houston, Texas] and meet her. So that’s what I did.

[Assistant] Did you have any responsibilities in the investigation or the recovery?

[User] Yes, I supported the technical team that looked at the tank and the engines, and tried to understand what had happened there, make sure there wasn’t any engine-related problem. So we didn’t know at first that it was the solid rocket booster joint, although that came out pretty quickly, so I didn’t spend a lot of time on that task. A little bit.

[Assistant] What effect do you think the accident had on the astronaut corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was obvious when the thing blew apart. Nobody said a word. I think we all just filed out. My wife was due to fly in from a trip she’d had to California within an hour and a half of that, so I decided to drive up to Intercontinental [Airport, Houston, Texas] and meet her. So that’s what I did.

[Assistant] Did you have any responsibilities in the investigation or the recovery?

[User] Yes, I supported the technical team that looked at the tank and the engines, and tried to understand what had happened there, make sure there wasn’t any engine-related problem. So we didn’t know at first that it was the solid rocket booster joint, although that came out pretty quickly, so I didn’t spend a lot of time on that task. A little bit.

[Assistant] What effect do you think the accident had on the astronaut corps?

[User] Well, it got rid of a bunch of people that were unwilling to wait around then, because it was obvious that this was a major change in the program, that we would never fly as much as we thought we would fly, and it would be several years, unknown how many years before we flew again, so I think it motivated people to leave. Ox is one, for instance, because he was not wanting to wait around. Did people leave because they now understood that this was a real flying business where accidents happen? I don’t think so. Most of us came from operational backgrounds where that happened.

[Assistant] Did you ever consider leaving the Astronaut Office at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I supported the technical team that looked at the tank and the engines, and tried to understand what had happened there, make sure there wasn’t any engine-related problem. So we didn’t know at first that it was the solid rocket booster joint, although that came out pretty quickly, so I didn’t spend a lot of time on that task. A little bit.

[Assistant] What effect do you think the accident had on the astronaut corps?

[User] Well, it got rid of a bunch of people that were unwilling to wait around then, because it was obvious that this was a major change in the program, that we would never fly as much as we thought we would fly, and it would be several years, unknown how many years before we flew again, so I think it motivated people to leave. Ox is one, for instance, because he was not wanting to wait around. Did people leave because they now understood that this was a real flying business where accidents happen? I don’t think so. Most of us came from operational backgrounds where that happened.

[Assistant] Did you ever consider leaving the Astronaut Office at that point?

[User] No. No, Rick Hauck said, “We’re going to be all right. We’ll be fine.” He hinted that we might fly soon or we might be on the crew that flew the return. He went to Headquarters and was Public Affairs Associate Administrator for Fletcher then and was very tight with Fletcher, so we just hung around.

[Assistant] Before you flew on STS-26, you were working in Space Station.