[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lifetime. It took, I don't know. I think we were on the bus maybe 5 hours and maybe we had to change. And then we got to Azerbaijan. And then we were just, like, exhausted, just to like to be in the room. And then you were scared to go out and then you went out and then could you find your way back and everything? It was really like basic survival. And it was, I, yeah, I hadn't thought about that in a long time.

[Assistant] So your task was maybe given a certain amount of money, get to Azerbaijan. Let's spend the night maybe?

[User] Spend the night and or two days even maybe, and then come back. Right. And so we were very proud that we made it back a lot. I mean, we weren't in any danger, but we felt everything was fine and we were trying out our Farsi for the first time, you know, without any instructors around. And not to try to. We were very, we'd been very, uh. It had been drilled into us that we shouldn't offend people, you know, so we're trying to do everything right and not be offensive and. That was pretty intense. I remember just like sweating bullets, just like, I just tried to do it all right. And wondering if it was right or could we order food or you know.

[Assistant] What, now, this was the bus stop that was the trip was so hot and with ice cream?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And were there many people, did they have chickens and stuff on too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Spend the night and or two days even maybe, and then come back. Right. And so we were very proud that we made it back a lot. I mean, we weren't in any danger, but we felt everything was fine and we were trying out our Farsi for the first time, you know, without any instructors around. And not to try to. We were very, we'd been very, uh. It had been drilled into us that we shouldn't offend people, you know, so we're trying to do everything right and not be offensive and. That was pretty intense. I remember just like sweating bullets, just like, I just tried to do it all right. And wondering if it was right or could we order food or you know.

[Assistant] What, now, this was the bus stop that was the trip was so hot and with ice cream?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And were there many people, did they have chickens and stuff on too?

[User] Yeah. I mean, this bus was, was very crowded and I was very conscious of being a, you know, a Western woman, was, you know.

[Assistant] Were you the only Western woman on the bus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And were there many people, did they have chickens and stuff on too?

[User] Yeah. I mean, this bus was, was very crowded and I was very conscious of being a, you know, a Western woman, was, you know.

[Assistant] Were you the only Western woman on the bus?

[User] Yes. One of the things that really struck me was when I look at pictures of Iranians, I think I look just like they do. They have brown hair. I had brown hair at the time. You know, I have kind of olive skin. I have hazel eyes. I'm not like a Norwegian type. And so I thought, well, they won't even notice me. But they are a very homogeneous, or they were 30 years ago, a very homogeneous population. And so they really look alike. I mean, they know. They know that you're not one of them, whereas I wouldn't have thought they would know that. And it became really clear that I looked really different.

[Assistant] On a bus how could you tell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, this bus was, was very crowded and I was very conscious of being a, you know, a Western woman, was, you know.

[Assistant] Were you the only Western woman on the bus?

[User] Yes. One of the things that really struck me was when I look at pictures of Iranians, I think I look just like they do. They have brown hair. I had brown hair at the time. You know, I have kind of olive skin. I have hazel eyes. I'm not like a Norwegian type. And so I thought, well, they won't even notice me. But they are a very homogeneous, or they were 30 years ago, a very homogeneous population. And so they really look alike. I mean, they know. They know that you're not one of them, whereas I wouldn't have thought they would know that. And it became really clear that I looked really different.

[Assistant] On a bus how could you tell?

[User] Oh, everybody would just stare at you. And they, in those days they would say, hello mister, hello mister, hello mister. And so, you know, later we got a cat and named him mister because that's the word we heard the most. Hello mister. And then they would say to me, they'd say hello mister. They have no idea what, you know, mister is. And you got a lot of cat calls and little children goggling and ogling. That kind of thing. But we had been moving as a group before. This was our first time moving out as a couple.

[Assistant] And also, how was it on the bus? I mean, in some countries you hear about wild bus drivers and traffic problems.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. One of the things that really struck me was when I look at pictures of Iranians, I think I look just like they do. They have brown hair. I had brown hair at the time. You know, I have kind of olive skin. I have hazel eyes. I'm not like a Norwegian type. And so I thought, well, they won't even notice me. But they are a very homogeneous, or they were 30 years ago, a very homogeneous population. And so they really look alike. I mean, they know. They know that you're not one of them, whereas I wouldn't have thought they would know that. And it became really clear that I looked really different.

[Assistant] On a bus how could you tell?

[User] Oh, everybody would just stare at you. And they, in those days they would say, hello mister, hello mister, hello mister. And so, you know, later we got a cat and named him mister because that's the word we heard the most. Hello mister. And then they would say to me, they'd say hello mister. They have no idea what, you know, mister is. And you got a lot of cat calls and little children goggling and ogling. That kind of thing. But we had been moving as a group before. This was our first time moving out as a couple.

[Assistant] And also, how was it on the bus? I mean, in some countries you hear about wild bus drivers and traffic problems.

[User] Yep, that's, yep. It was pretty, um. You just had to. The favorite thing they say there is inshallah. That means in the hands of God or God willing. So everything was inshallah. We're going to get there, inshallah. We're going to be alive, inshallah. And so, God willing, became a key thing. But it was very hot. I just remember it was hot. And you're so covered up, you know, it was just like ugh.

[Assistant] Now all through training, you had to be covered up like that in public?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, everybody would just stare at you. And they, in those days they would say, hello mister, hello mister, hello mister. And so, you know, later we got a cat and named him mister because that's the word we heard the most. Hello mister. And then they would say to me, they'd say hello mister. They have no idea what, you know, mister is. And you got a lot of cat calls and little children goggling and ogling. That kind of thing. But we had been moving as a group before. This was our first time moving out as a couple.

[Assistant] And also, how was it on the bus? I mean, in some countries you hear about wild bus drivers and traffic problems.

[User] Yep, that's, yep. It was pretty, um. You just had to. The favorite thing they say there is inshallah. That means in the hands of God or God willing. So everything was inshallah. We're going to get there, inshallah. We're going to be alive, inshallah. And so, God willing, became a key thing. But it was very hot. I just remember it was hot. And you're so covered up, you know, it was just like ugh.

[Assistant] Now all through training, you had to be covered up like that in public?

[User] In the country when there were, yeah. Not in class, not if we were having language class, because the Iranians who were our teachers were very Americanized.

[Assistant] But if you went out in town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep, that's, yep. It was pretty, um. You just had to. The favorite thing they say there is inshallah. That means in the hands of God or God willing. So everything was inshallah. We're going to get there, inshallah. We're going to be alive, inshallah. And so, God willing, became a key thing. But it was very hot. I just remember it was hot. And you're so covered up, you know, it was just like ugh.

[Assistant] Now all through training, you had to be covered up like that in public?

[User] In the country when there were, yeah. Not in class, not if we were having language class, because the Iranians who were our teachers were very Americanized.

[Assistant] But if you went out in town?

[User] Into the street, into the bazaar or any, yeah, absolutely. You might go out and have. It's a kind of Mediterranean feel actually, you know in Iran it's you go out and you have cold yogurt, buttermilk kind of yogurt. And you might sit in a kind of vineyard type thing. I mean, it would have vines and maybe a dirt floor. So it was kind of cool against the hotness of the, of the outside baking practice. And if we ever went to anything like that, we'd be covered up.

[Assistant] So the whole two years, you basically have to cover up. How about when you were teaching your class, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, because I taught in a girls school. It was segregation of sexes in, um, in school, but not. I later lived in Saudi Arabia for two years as a teacher and one of the things the Peace Corps did for me was allow me to venture into Saudi Arabia. And I went there with kind of what I call a Peace Corps mind, which is there's good here to be found. Let's find it. And Saudi Arabia really tested that. If you want to interview me about Saudi Arabia, I could do another interview. But their segregation is total. There are female bank machines, there are male bank machines. There's an iron partition in the bus and women are in the back, the men are in the front. There's, I mean, there are women travel agents for women going on trips there. You know, there are women photographers who photograph the bride. They are, you know, they are men to photograph, to photograph the groom. It's total. There's women's hospitals. There's men's hospitals. I mean, it is total.

Iran was not like that at the time. The women were modest, but they were. They didn't have a special place to sit in the bus and nothing like Saudi Arabia.

[Assistant] So women could sit in the front of the bus, for example?

[User] Yes, women could sit on, you were with your family, but it was not an oppression the way I experienced it in Saudi Arabia.

[Assistant] Okay. So then about how long was your training in country, would you guess?

[User] I think we, I don't know, maybe had. I don't really know. Maybe several weeks. Six, four weeks maybe, two weeks, something. I remember we were three months in Vermont and then some period in Tehran.

[Assistant] What stands out most about the one in Tehran is the little survival tips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, women could sit on, you were with your family, but it was not an oppression the way I experienced it in Saudi Arabia.

[Assistant] Okay. So then about how long was your training in country, would you guess?

[User] I think we, I don't know, maybe had. I don't really know. Maybe several weeks. Six, four weeks maybe, two weeks, something. I remember we were three months in Vermont and then some period in Tehran.

[Assistant] What stands out most about the one in Tehran is the little survival tips?

[User] That first little foray out. And that ice cream and the rose water. And the toilet. I think that was my first experience with a public toilet, which is your standard Middle East squat toilet with very, um. You know, they had, they have something called. I mean I don't know, I don't think toilet habits in countries are that essential but it was a shocker, you know. They don't use toilet paper, they use their left hand. And they had this little bidet thing, which is a little water spout for it. You know, on your derriere, and then you use your hand to wipe yourself and then you pour the water. And so that's why you never eat with your left hand. Because your left hand is contaminated. So they, you know, they get often very grossed out by Americans who would travel in their country. And, you know, pick up a hot, you know, not a hot dog, what am I saying. Pick up a, anything, a piece of watermelon with their left hand, you know, and not understanding that we don't use our left hands the way they use their left hands. So that's.

[Assistant] Now were you expected to use this toilet with those long dresses you're talking about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we, I don't know, maybe had. I don't really know. Maybe several weeks. Six, four weeks maybe, two weeks, something. I remember we were three months in Vermont and then some period in Tehran.

[Assistant] What stands out most about the one in Tehran is the little survival tips?

[User] That first little foray out. And that ice cream and the rose water. And the toilet. I think that was my first experience with a public toilet, which is your standard Middle East squat toilet with very, um. You know, they had, they have something called. I mean I don't know, I don't think toilet habits in countries are that essential but it was a shocker, you know. They don't use toilet paper, they use their left hand. And they had this little bidet thing, which is a little water spout for it. You know, on your derriere, and then you use your hand to wipe yourself and then you pour the water. And so that's why you never eat with your left hand. Because your left hand is contaminated. So they, you know, they get often very grossed out by Americans who would travel in their country. And, you know, pick up a hot, you know, not a hot dog, what am I saying. Pick up a, anything, a piece of watermelon with their left hand, you know, and not understanding that we don't use our left hands the way they use their left hands. So that's.

[Assistant] Now were you expected to use this toilet with those long dresses you're talking about?

[User] Yes. Uh huh.

[Assistant] Didn't that make a mess or anything, was that fairly difficult?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Uh huh.

[Assistant] Didn't that make a mess or anything, was that fairly difficult?

[User] Well, it was fairly difficult to walk in because it was just like, the odor was, it was very odiferous. And, you know, and we all carry toilet paper, of course, because we, being good Americans. And so, you know, you had to make sure you had your toilet paper and your dress scooped up and those things. And you usually had diarrhea in the beginning. And, you know, I remember another time just really having to go to the bathroom really badly and being on a bus and just having to wait like hours. And I had really bad diarrhea. And you know how you get those stomach cramps and you just have to say, okay, I've just get through this somehow or another. And you did. But, you know, you really became inured to it after a while. You're just like, oh well.

[Assistant] You were able to hold in that and you had diarrhea all that time?

[User] Yes. But I remember it. Um. So I think just your kind of basic survival, you know, toilet, eating, travel, that's, that's a shock from there.

[Assistant] And then how did the assignment go to your site, was it given to you or did you pick it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was fairly difficult to walk in because it was just like, the odor was, it was very odiferous. And, you know, and we all carry toilet paper, of course, because we, being good Americans. And so, you know, you had to make sure you had your toilet paper and your dress scooped up and those things. And you usually had diarrhea in the beginning. And, you know, I remember another time just really having to go to the bathroom really badly and being on a bus and just having to wait like hours. And I had really bad diarrhea. And you know how you get those stomach cramps and you just have to say, okay, I've just get through this somehow or another. And you did. But, you know, you really became inured to it after a while. You're just like, oh well.

[Assistant] You were able to hold in that and you had diarrhea all that time?

[User] Yes. But I remember it. Um. So I think just your kind of basic survival, you know, toilet, eating, travel, that's, that's a shock from there.

[Assistant] And then how did the assignment go to your site, was it given to you or did you pick it?

[User] No, it was given to us and I remember we went up on the bus. And it was very much like the first time we went, you know, it was like, okay, here we go. We're going off.

[Assistant] And just the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But I remember it. Um. So I think just your kind of basic survival, you know, toilet, eating, travel, that's, that's a shock from there.

[Assistant] And then how did the assignment go to your site, was it given to you or did you pick it?

[User] No, it was given to us and I remember we went up on the bus. And it was very much like the first time we went, you know, it was like, okay, here we go. We're going off.

[Assistant] And just the two of you?

[User] Yes. Yeah. We were in a town of about 20, I'd say 20,000 people. And it was, it was a beautiful town to be in because it was pure Persian. It was in between the two, it was in the Fars Province and Fars is what the word Farsi comes from, which is the language that they speak.

[Assistant] Fars was north, east, west?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. We were in a town of about 20, I'd say 20,000 people. And it was, it was a beautiful town to be in because it was pure Persian. It was in between the two, it was in the Fars Province and Fars is what the word Farsi comes from, which is the language that they speak.

[Assistant] Fars was north, east, west?

[User]
Fars meaning Persian. And so it's sort of in the middle of Iran, very purely Iranian, because all around the edges you have, like Azerbaijan was near Russia and you had the Afghani border. And so all along the borders were tribal people. Excuse me, I dropped my glasses. All along the border. I don't know what that does to your taping.

All along the border were multicultural influences. But in the heart of Iran was where we were, which was Abadeh. And it was a very, the language, the accent. They were very proud of. And I speak very limited Persian now. But then I was pretty good. And I remember we got tested at the end and we got a government rating, like a government employee. And I remember we got three point something, which I think was pretty good. And the man who tested us said, well, there's a debate in language among linguists, whether language is really correct grammar and syntax or whether language is communication. And so my husband spoke better, uh, syntax. But he said, you can't communicate. And so I, I did, I, I would say the wrong verb tense, but I'd just merrily go along and I have a good ability to communicate. And I felt really good about that.

[Assistant] And I'm going back to the bus trip to where you were assigned. Any reactions? Your first impression of the town you were in? Well, Persian, you said that. And what about the school you were assigned to? Now, were you both at the same school?

[User] No, no. He would have been in the boys school. So totally different.

[Assistant] Different part of town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. He would have been in the boys school. So totally different.

[Assistant] Different part of town?

[User]
Different part of town. Not nearby. I liked our house. It was kind of modern. And I said, you know, I felt that we were. I think they called our allowance a subsistence allowance. But I felt that we got a high-class allowance. We definitely lived better than, uh, we lived like professionals. We lived like the teachers and the doctors and the people in that town. We certainly did not live like the blue-collar workers of that town. And so that meant we had a brick house. It had no heat. Abadeh has certain mountains, so it got cold and we even had snow twice in the winter. I wore a wool skirt in the winter and I thought they were long because they were like about here, because miniskirts were really in when I, and they came to the top of my knee and I realized immediately they were not considered, they were not long. So.

Had to readjust my definition of what was appropriate, you know, modest clothing. And never any, despite the heat, never anything sleeveless. They, they, for them the sexiest part of the body is your underarm. So like tourists who would come through with like standard sleeveless T-shirts, it was just like going bare chested down the street. And they would get a lot of flack and, you know, European girls who are traveling, tremendous amount of unwanted attention. Totally unaware that they are really like going topless. So. There was a miscommunication. And I always felt really bad and embarrassed, and I felt that Americans pretty much lived up to their Ugly American motto.

[Assistant] Is there any specific anecdote that comes to mind?

[User] Well, just that kind of sleeveless thing was really terrible. I remember once even a girl wore shorts and they were probably okay modest shorts but in Iran, you just didn't wear shorts.

[Assistant] Now, back to your house. Was it a one room, two room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, just that kind of sleeveless thing was really terrible. I remember once even a girl wore shorts and they were probably okay modest shorts but in Iran, you just didn't wear shorts.

[Assistant] Now, back to your house. Was it a one room, two room?

[User] No, it had a living room and a dining room and a bedroom. A kitchen, a bath. And a squat toilet. And also they had walled courtyards, so it had a walled courtyard and a little pool and.

[Assistant] You mean like a fish pool?

[User] Yeah, a little fish pool. And the floors were marble. Cool. And my mother came and I have a picture of her. She died in January. And what we did, a life poster of her and one of the pictures we have is her taking a bath in my kitchen, sitting in a big tub of water and taking like a sit bath in the kitchen. And because our kitchen only had a shower and she didn't want a shower. I mean, our bathroom only had a shower. So, um, it was cold in the winter because there was no heat. And so there were these little propane heaters, like a camping heater you might put in your house. The house was really nice. I remember thinking it would be nicer than the house we had at home.

[Assistant] Now was there was running water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, a little fish pool. And the floors were marble. Cool. And my mother came and I have a picture of her. She died in January. And what we did, a life poster of her and one of the pictures we have is her taking a bath in my kitchen, sitting in a big tub of water and taking like a sit bath in the kitchen. And because our kitchen only had a shower and she didn't want a shower. I mean, our bathroom only had a shower. So, um, it was cold in the winter because there was no heat. And so there were these little propane heaters, like a camping heater you might put in your house. The house was really nice. I remember thinking it would be nicer than the house we had at home.

[Assistant] Now was there was running water?

[User] There was running water.

[Assistant] Electricity?

[User] Electricity. There was running water and electricity. It was really like I said, I said we were like the doctors of the town. And that was, um. That was great. I mean, there was no physical hardship at all. At least I don't think it was physical hardship at all.

[Assistant] Many volunteers felt they were sort of adding to the economy to have like a cleaning person. Did you have anyone like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was running water.

[Assistant] Electricity?

[User] Electricity. There was running water and electricity. It was really like I said, I said we were like the doctors of the town. And that was, um. That was great. I mean, there was no physical hardship at all. At least I don't think it was physical hardship at all.

[Assistant] Many volunteers felt they were sort of adding to the economy to have like a cleaning person. Did you have anyone like that?

[User] No, we didn't. I didn't have any.

[Assistant] Do you have any idea if other volunteers? [tape break] It's past the leader. Okay, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Electricity. There was running water and electricity. It was really like I said, I said we were like the doctors of the town. And that was, um. That was great. I mean, there was no physical hardship at all. At least I don't think it was physical hardship at all.

[Assistant] Many volunteers felt they were sort of adding to the economy to have like a cleaning person. Did you have anyone like that?

[User] No, we didn't. I didn't have any.

[Assistant] Do you have any idea if other volunteers? [tape break] It's past the leader. Okay, go ahead.

[User] My experience wasn't so much physical danger, but more subtle adjustments in attitude. Which were internally volcanos, volcanic. You know, they changed who I was, but not so much from being frightened or harassed. My experience of Iran was they were the most, Iranians were the most hospitable, kind people I've ever met and had ever met. Mohammed was a traveler. So it was part of their religious belief that when a stranger came to your town, you were to treat them like Mohammed. And I believe that they actually did that. People went out of their way countless times to cook for us, help us find our house.

[Assistant] I'll write that back to you. You started with how that changed you, how a momentous change inside of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And but at the same time, even though you could handle it, it had this impact on you. It's a change in some way. It sounds like more than mental that, oh, they do this and that. But made you face yourself in a certain way or a bit more. How do you parallel with physical danger sense?

[User] I didn't think of it as dangerous, but I think of it as altering.

[Assistant] Say more about the altering?

[User] Well, I don't know, except I just know how I am now. And, um, Bruce calls. I'm a tutor, and I encourage people who are quite discouraged. And Bruce calls me a professional liar in jest. But I don't consider it lying. I consider seeing what the potential is and manifesting that. So the child himself or herself can kind of hold on to that idea and pull themselves through some difficult times.

[Assistant] Okay, then I'm wondering, it was something you said earlier. When you went to Saudi Arabia, it was difficult, but you kept sort of your Peace Corps mind of seeing the good in the situation. That sounds like what you're saying now. But now, do you think that came more from the Peace Corps or from Iran or a combination of the two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't think of it as dangerous, but I think of it as altering.

[Assistant] Say more about the altering?

[User] Well, I don't know, except I just know how I am now. And, um, Bruce calls. I'm a tutor, and I encourage people who are quite discouraged. And Bruce calls me a professional liar in jest. But I don't consider it lying. I consider seeing what the potential is and manifesting that. So the child himself or herself can kind of hold on to that idea and pull themselves through some difficult times.

[Assistant] Okay, then I'm wondering, it was something you said earlier. When you went to Saudi Arabia, it was difficult, but you kept sort of your Peace Corps mind of seeing the good in the situation. That sounds like what you're saying now. But now, do you think that came more from the Peace Corps or from Iran or a combination of the two?

[User] Well, I think Iran was very formative for me because it was the first time I'd ever left home. It was the first time I was on my own. It was the first real job I ever had. I mean, I had summer jobs, but it was the first real, real job I ever had. And it was the first place I kept house. So I really, I learned to cook there. I think I learned to think there. I think I learned to be hospitable there in a way that you know your house is open, what I have is yours, kill the fatted calf. That's.

[Assistant] You're talking about learning how to cook. What kind of stove did you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's a cross between a sitar and a lute. And it's, I think it's unique to Persia. Some of our friends played that really well. Backgammon. You'd play backgammon forever.

[Assistant] Now, you mentioned a samovar. What's that used for? How does that fit in?

[User] The samovar? Um, I was. I had one out there in the hall. You make the tea in that. I could bring it over, but it's, it's a round. It has, you put the water in the round part and then it has a cone in the middle. You put charcoal in and then it has a little smokestack that you put off and on to stoke the coals. And then you turn the spout and the water comes out and have these little. They drink tea in glass teacups with sugar cubes. And you suck the tea through the sugar. You hold the sugar cube in your mouth and then you suck the tea through the sugar cube.

[Assistant] You mentioned unexpectedly you might play backgammon, for example. Would the women play, too?

[User] Yes, the women would play with the women usually, and the men would play with the men. Usually the women are taking care of the kids. They, they would. One thing that shocked my mother I remember is they breastfeed their children till they're around six. And so you have these really like large children wanting to be breastfed. And my mother is just like, I can't believe this. So, but that's just kind of normal.

[Assistant] How about other things in leisure time? Picnics. What other things would you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The samovar? Um, I was. I had one out there in the hall. You make the tea in that. I could bring it over, but it's, it's a round. It has, you put the water in the round part and then it has a cone in the middle. You put charcoal in and then it has a little smokestack that you put off and on to stoke the coals. And then you turn the spout and the water comes out and have these little. They drink tea in glass teacups with sugar cubes. And you suck the tea through the sugar. You hold the sugar cube in your mouth and then you suck the tea through the sugar cube.

[Assistant] You mentioned unexpectedly you might play backgammon, for example. Would the women play, too?

[User] Yes, the women would play with the women usually, and the men would play with the men. Usually the women are taking care of the kids. They, they would. One thing that shocked my mother I remember is they breastfeed their children till they're around six. And so you have these really like large children wanting to be breastfed. And my mother is just like, I can't believe this. So, but that's just kind of normal.

[Assistant] How about other things in leisure time? Picnics. What other things would you do?

[User] Picnics were about it for leisure. There was no movie theater. There was no TV. There was, uh.

[Assistant] Would you go to somebody else's house and sit and visit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the women would play with the women usually, and the men would play with the men. Usually the women are taking care of the kids. They, they would. One thing that shocked my mother I remember is they breastfeed their children till they're around six. And so you have these really like large children wanting to be breastfed. And my mother is just like, I can't believe this. So, but that's just kind of normal.

[Assistant] How about other things in leisure time? Picnics. What other things would you do?

[User] Picnics were about it for leisure. There was no movie theater. There was no TV. There was, uh.

[Assistant] Would you go to somebody else's house and sit and visit?

[User] Yeah, we would. Visiting. Visiting. And dinners together, cooking, visiting, and picnics. Pretty much. And then Bruce and I would travel on the weekends. We would, because we were in between these two wonderful towns. They were about 3 hours away each. And so we could take the bus and explore Isfahan and explore Shiraz.

[Assistant] Any exploring stories that happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Picnics were about it for leisure. There was no movie theater. There was no TV. There was, uh.

[Assistant] Would you go to somebody else's house and sit and visit?

[User] Yeah, we would. Visiting. Visiting. And dinners together, cooking, visiting, and picnics. Pretty much. And then Bruce and I would travel on the weekends. We would, because we were in between these two wonderful towns. They were about 3 hours away each. And so we could take the bus and explore Isfahan and explore Shiraz.

[Assistant] Any exploring stories that happened?

[User] Um. Not, you know, too much in that. And, you know, it's interesting. We felt so at home there that I think now that I'm thinking about it, my adventures sort of go around and like we traveled for six months after and I sort of all through the east and we went to Burma and all these things and we went the Peace Corps route from one Peace Corps volunteer to the next. And I have many stories to tell you about, you know, like what I would call travel adventures. But when I think about Abadeh, it's like if you ask me what adventures I was having here in Ann Arbor. It was so, um, community and family oriented, you know. We were part of other people's families. We. You know, we just moved sort of as a teacher, like any other teacher in that community. And we did the things that other teachers were.

[Assistant] You were really integrated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. Um, well, I think. What I do remember about staying the extra two years is that we really wanted to live in a commune when we came home, because Iranians are very communal and, um. We just couldn't understand why everybody in America had their own washer and dryer and everybody in America had their own car and everybody in America had their own vacuum because where in our town, you kind of like. It was more familial groups, but the family would have a whatever and everybody would use it. And the family would have a car and that's why there were 12 people in it. And the extended family. It just seems such a waste for everyone. So we, I remember we sent out this letter. And we had a typewriter, you know, like an old typewriter. I remember typing on this old typewriter.

And we sent out this letter kind of expounding on these ideas about materialism. Why couldn't we do it differently? And we just expected everyone to say, yes, let's go all live together in wherever. And of course nobody did. And we were, we were really disappointed. I think when we came back, um, that I was, you know, fairly odd. I refused to have furniture in my house. But I had lunch on the floor and lived like an arrangement.

[Assistant] Now again, did you come back in between or did you stay straight through four years?

[User] Straight through. We traveled. We came home to visit.

[Assistant] Okay, but then why did you decide to stay on longer?

[User] We just didn't want to come home. We just really.

[Assistant] So you had that sense of the materialism back here and you just wanted to be in that culture basically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Straight through. We traveled. We came home to visit.

[Assistant] Okay, but then why did you decide to stay on longer?

[User] We just didn't want to come home. We just really.

[Assistant] So you had that sense of the materialism back here and you just wanted to be in that culture basically?

[User] Yeah, we just wanted to be there. We would have, actually, I think at certain points we wanted to just stay there forever. We were totally happy. And that's that story I told you before about kind of understanding that maybe we were totally happy, but we weren't totally being real. Was it kind of a jolt? Because I think we. You know, that they were never going to understand our needs. We might understand their needs better, but I'm not sure that they would have.

[Assistant] Okay. So you were totally happy, wanted to live in this kind of culture versus the culture back in the States. But then there was that jolt at some point towards the end of that and realized, wow, there's this gulf between us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We just didn't want to come home. We just really.

[Assistant] So you had that sense of the materialism back here and you just wanted to be in that culture basically?

[User] Yeah, we just wanted to be there. We would have, actually, I think at certain points we wanted to just stay there forever. We were totally happy. And that's that story I told you before about kind of understanding that maybe we were totally happy, but we weren't totally being real. Was it kind of a jolt? Because I think we. You know, that they were never going to understand our needs. We might understand their needs better, but I'm not sure that they would have.

[Assistant] Okay. So you were totally happy, wanted to live in this kind of culture versus the culture back in the States. But then there was that jolt at some point towards the end of that and realized, wow, there's this gulf between us.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] That doesn't seem to be a shortening.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we just wanted to be there. We would have, actually, I think at certain points we wanted to just stay there forever. We were totally happy. And that's that story I told you before about kind of understanding that maybe we were totally happy, but we weren't totally being real. Was it kind of a jolt? Because I think we. You know, that they were never going to understand our needs. We might understand their needs better, but I'm not sure that they would have.

[Assistant] Okay. So you were totally happy, wanted to live in this kind of culture versus the culture back in the States. But then there was that jolt at some point towards the end of that and realized, wow, there's this gulf between us.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] That doesn't seem to be a shortening.

[User] Right. It's kind of a puzzle.

[Assistant] But then it's interesting is that, it gets into another question they had here about the impact the Peace Corps had on you first immediately and then long term. And it sounds like the immediate one you were answering, that the immediate effect of, if not the Peace Corps, living in Iran, was to try to bring Iran back to the States when you go back. And maybe that intensified your culture shock a bit, it sounds like? Talk about that immediate effect again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] That doesn't seem to be a shortening.

[User] Right. It's kind of a puzzle.

[Assistant] But then it's interesting is that, it gets into another question they had here about the impact the Peace Corps had on you first immediately and then long term. And it sounds like the immediate one you were answering, that the immediate effect of, if not the Peace Corps, living in Iran, was to try to bring Iran back to the States when you go back. And maybe that intensified your culture shock a bit, it sounds like? Talk about that immediate effect again.

[User] Well, the part, I just. Before we get back to the United States, I just want to say that one of the things I loved the most was doing the training for the Peace Corps, because we, we re-up for two years. And then we were director, uh, Bruce was the director, was the director of the training program. And I, in it, by this time they were doing the whole training program in the country, and I was the cross- cultural director. And that, those last six months of doing the training were just, um, I just loved it. I really love thinking up cross-cultural exercises for people.

[Assistant] For example, what kind of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we had no furniture. We had carpets. I think we had one little kind of loveseat, cushions maybe stacked up so that we weren't always sitting on the floor. But basically, you're always sitting on the floor and your back gets very strong. Because you sit, you sit cross- legged. Or if you have a long skirt, you're sitting with your legs to the side and your skirt is over your legs and, you know, but you never like put your knees up because your, your skirt might come up. So you really get, you get strong. Your back gets strong.

[Assistant] What about the bed?

[User] They have bed rolls and they roll them up in the day because they basically have one room, or a big room, a family room, and then they roll them out at night. And they hate privacy. They're a very communal group. And so they think that the meanest thing you can do is send somebody to their room. And what they would always ask me was, how can your parents sent you here without? They thought like we were delinquents or something, young delinquent adults, that our parents didn't want to be around us, that they had allowed us to come half around the world and not. You know, because they live in multigenerational families and they live together. And the idea that, you know, one child per room, they just think is like torture. They think that's like prison.

[Assistant] I'm curious, when you say they have no concept of privacy, think it's the worst thing you can do. A person we just interviewed in Nepal talked about a similar thing there, it appears it was the same with you, where they, the people seem to feel that he would be lonely if he was alone.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So they would walk into his house any time and think they were doing him a favor. Even when he'd say, I really need some alone time. They wouldn't understand that. Was it similar in Iran that people could walk in any time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They have bed rolls and they roll them up in the day because they basically have one room, or a big room, a family room, and then they roll them out at night. And they hate privacy. They're a very communal group. And so they think that the meanest thing you can do is send somebody to their room. And what they would always ask me was, how can your parents sent you here without? They thought like we were delinquents or something, young delinquent adults, that our parents didn't want to be around us, that they had allowed us to come half around the world and not. You know, because they live in multigenerational families and they live together. And the idea that, you know, one child per room, they just think is like torture. They think that's like prison.

[Assistant] I'm curious, when you say they have no concept of privacy, think it's the worst thing you can do. A person we just interviewed in Nepal talked about a similar thing there, it appears it was the same with you, where they, the people seem to feel that he would be lonely if he was alone.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So they would walk into his house any time and think they were doing him a favor. Even when he'd say, I really need some alone time. They wouldn't understand that. Was it similar in Iran that people could walk in any time?

[User] Well, because we were married. I don't know if he was married or not, but I think that, you know, they respected that kind of couple is a family kind of thing. So they never, never would walk in on us unexpectedly or anything like that. But they did always include us in all their outings. And, you know if, say, Bruce was going down to the store, the minute he stepped out of the house, somebody would come and walk with him down to the market or, you know, no such thing as going out for a evening stroll by yourself.

[Assistant] And same for you, if you go out, somebody would join you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So they would walk into his house any time and think they were doing him a favor. Even when he'd say, I really need some alone time. They wouldn't understand that. Was it similar in Iran that people could walk in any time?

[User] Well, because we were married. I don't know if he was married or not, but I think that, you know, they respected that kind of couple is a family kind of thing. So they never, never would walk in on us unexpectedly or anything like that. But they did always include us in all their outings. And, you know if, say, Bruce was going down to the store, the minute he stepped out of the house, somebody would come and walk with him down to the market or, you know, no such thing as going out for a evening stroll by yourself.

[Assistant] And same for you, if you go out, somebody would join you?

[User] Yeah, but I wouldn't go out. I mean, women were a little bit more in. Not that I couldn't have gone out, but I got more attention when I went out. So I wouldn't just go strolling around by myself. I'd go out with him. And we had a cat. And they thought that was really weird. I mean, it was an alley cat, but we just.

[Assistant] Thought it was weird because?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but I wouldn't go out. I mean, women were a little bit more in. Not that I couldn't have gone out, but I got more attention when I went out. So I wouldn't just go strolling around by myself. I'd go out with him. And we had a cat. And they thought that was really weird. I mean, it was an alley cat, but we just.

[Assistant] Thought it was weird because?

[User] They don't have.

[Assistant] Pets?

[User] Pets. But I've always had a cat. So that's one weird Americanism.

[Assistant] Before we close, are there any other stories that happened to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They don't have.

[Assistant] Pets?

[User] Pets. But I've always had a cat. So that's one weird Americanism.

[Assistant] Before we close, are there any other stories that happened to you?

[User] Now I want to go back and reread my letters and, and I'm sure there are lots of stories.

[Assistant] Any other health issues, if there was anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now I want to go back and reread my letters and, and I'm sure there are lots of stories.

[Assistant] Any other health issues, if there was anything like that?

[User] No, but I would like to talk more about how it impacted me in my life. Is that, is that?

[Assistant] That's fine.

[User] Because I, when I was thinking about you coming over, I thought that the most important thing was the impact it had on me later on. Immediately was how I lived, you know, that little period where I was neither, uh, you know, fowl, or what is it?

[Assistant] Fish or fowl?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but I would like to talk more about how it impacted me in my life. Is that, is that?

[Assistant] That's fine.

[User] Because I, when I was thinking about you coming over, I thought that the most important thing was the impact it had on me later on. Immediately was how I lived, you know, that little period where I was neither, uh, you know, fowl, or what is it?

[Assistant] Fish or fowl?

[User]
Fish nor fowl. Right. But much more importantly. And then I had a business, a natural skin care business in New York for 20 years. And it was an international, uh, array. I went to all, a lot of trouble to find accouterment from all over the world, because I really wanted people to know that even being clean is. I used to say Mr. Clean is a cross-cultural gypsy. Because that was when that Mr. Clean, the bald man, was like a cleaning product. And so that was a direct impact. And then many, many years later, my son was dyslexic and was, he was a junior. He is dyslexic. And he was a junior in high school and was, I felt, becoming fatigued with his struggle with dyslexia and I wanted to enliven his education and encourage his hope.

And I sent him around the world with a tutor and designed that curriculum. And had community service and adventure, education and academic. And I think that people said, well, how did you get that idea or how did you think of it? It just seemed like a, a broadening experience that imparts hope in a person. And I think that's what the Peace Corps did for me. And it's really nice to see it for my son, who's now 22. I feel like he's almost a second generation Peace Corps, even though he wasn't in the organization. I'd love to see him going into Peace Corps, and my other son as well. But I wonder if there are second generational Peace Corps families.

[Assistant] There are some.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Well, I guess, Bob, that I'm one of those volunteers that did it ass backwards.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That my first job out of college was assistant director of a Peace Corps training program at Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, the oldest historically Black university in the United States. And it's also the school that Kwame Nkrumah went to.

[Assistant] Yes, you would, you went there as an undergrad?

[User] I went there as an undergraduate and that, although I had a hiatus before I graduated, but I went back and that's where I finished. I started out there in '55. My class was '59, but I graduated. And that I was asked to serve as assistant director of Peace Corps training program, which was for Liberia II, primary school teachers, and that my job primarily was dealing with a lot of the trainees and the psychological aspects and different things like that, doing some of the administrivia as well as doing all the tests and stuff like that, because my background was in psychology.

[Assistant] Was that your degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went there as an undergraduate and that, although I had a hiatus before I graduated, but I went back and that's where I finished. I started out there in '55. My class was '59, but I graduated. And that I was asked to serve as assistant director of Peace Corps training program, which was for Liberia II, primary school teachers, and that my job primarily was dealing with a lot of the trainees and the psychological aspects and different things like that, doing some of the administrivia as well as doing all the tests and stuff like that, because my background was in psychology.

[Assistant] Was that your degree?

[User] My undergraduate degree was in psychology.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] As a major.

[Assistant] Where had you grown up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a major.

[Assistant] Where had you grown up?

[User] In Cleveland, Ohio.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that is my home.

[Assistant] When, completed high school there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Cleveland, Ohio.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that is my home.

[Assistant] When, completed high school there?

[User] I completed high school in Cleveland. And when you say growing up, I really grew up between New York City and I was born in Cleveland. Went to like about the third grade, to New York. Came back to Cleveland in the 10th grade.

[Assistant] Yeah. In high school, was there any kind of family travel or any travel outside the Cleveland - New York circuit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that is my home.

[Assistant] When, completed high school there?

[User] I completed high school in Cleveland. And when you say growing up, I really grew up between New York City and I was born in Cleveland. Went to like about the third grade, to New York. Came back to Cleveland in the 10th grade.

[Assistant] Yeah. In high school, was there any kind of family travel or any travel outside the Cleveland - New York circuit?

[User] No. Other than, you know, to the towns where relatives were and things like that. And most of our family was between Cleveland, in Ohio, or in Pennsylvania. Had no Southern roots basically.

[Assistant] Okay. During college, did you do any international travel? Any, any national travel or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Other than, you know, to the towns where relatives were and things like that. And most of our family was between Cleveland, in Ohio, or in Pennsylvania. Had no Southern roots basically.

[Assistant] Okay. During college, did you do any international travel? Any, any national travel or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] No. Never. Never did.

[Assistant] And as of the time that Peace Corps invited you to work with the Liberia group, you didn't have any special knowledge of Liberia, or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dr. Markham. John Markham. And that, uh, and we had this institute there and that, uh, I also sort of got involved in that. And I guess what heightened part of my sensitivity to some of these things, and I'd always been whether or not I had read about it or knew about it, is that I had always been interested in international affairs. But when I got involved with the institute and some other things that I, you know, pursued it even further and that I was also involved in activities on campus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was interesting, one of them was the, uh, the YMCA. And the YMCA, they had things on college campuses around the country. And the fraternity I belonged to, and I have to give them their due, you know, we, you know, ran a number of different things. And one of them was the Y, and I became program chair this one year. And I said, well, what are we going to do? And I wanted to do something that was different.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And not your usual thing. And so what we did was to develop a conference that was going to be held on campus.

[Assistant] Do you remember what year is this now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. Kenya, Kenya was free at that time.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] And that they had just gotten and then they had the next steps to go through so it was an issue. But it was, it was Zambia and, um, and Zimbabwe now, I can't even remember what the name was at.

[Assistant] Northern Rhodesia.

[User] That's right. Northern Rhodesia. Well, Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia.

[Assistant] Yeah, I mix them up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we asked them to come to the table.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The two sides and talk about issues and things like that. Oh, we got into all kinds of trouble. The university got harassed. Their funding was threatened because. And the main culprits were, were the South Africans.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that, you know, who tried to put pressure on the State Department not to have this conference. The British were very amenable and they sent representatives and everything else. The Portuguese, they raised some issues, but they decided to participate, as did finally the South Africans, not to the extent we wanted them to. Um. And we brought all these people in and we invited people from other colleges to come down for the conference. It wasn't just that Lincoln in the Northeast corridor. And we got a large, large percentage. The biggest problem that happened out of it was that while there was some civility that went on and, but in the background there a lot of non-civility, if that's a word.

[Assistant] Hostility is what we call it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that we had students that essentially were kidnapped who, they were from Mozambique. Because Lincoln had a number of students from those countries that were there under sponsorship.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And what the Portuguese did was to have, and they had this big lobbying firm that did a lot of stuff for them and, and is to. They took some of them into town, talked with them, plied them with liquor, and, um, and. And as I understand threatened, you know, their families because they found out, because this one or these one or two, you know, squealed and told and they gave real names and things like that. And so that the families of those others may have been threatened, you know, back home. And so they disappeared, you know, from campus. And the last that we had heard that they were in Lisbon shortly thereafter.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so that, you know, that was one of my, you know, entrees into the real world of international affairs.

[Assistant] Yeah. Now, the Liberia training group was going to be primary school teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And what the Portuguese did was to have, and they had this big lobbying firm that did a lot of stuff for them and, and is to. They took some of them into town, talked with them, plied them with liquor, and, um, and. And as I understand threatened, you know, their families because they found out, because this one or these one or two, you know, squealed and told and they gave real names and things like that. And so that the families of those others may have been threatened, you know, back home. And so they disappeared, you know, from campus. And the last that we had heard that they were in Lisbon shortly thereafter.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so that, you know, that was one of my, you know, entrees into the real world of international affairs.

[Assistant] Yeah. Now, the Liberia training group was going to be primary school teachers?

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] And did they live on campus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so that, you know, that was one of my, you know, entrees into the real world of international affairs.

[Assistant] Yeah. Now, the Liberia training group was going to be primary school teachers?

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] And did they live on campus?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And was there a conscious, I assume it was a racially mixed group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] And did they live on campus?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And was there a conscious, I assume it was a racially mixed group?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And for the most part, Lincoln at that time was still an all Black institution or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And for the most part, Lincoln at that time was still an all Black institution or?

[User] Yes, it was all Black for all practical purposes. I mean, there were, I mean, white students had gone to Lincoln almost since the beginning.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I mean, but the majority of students there were Black. And it was all male.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah. Okay. And how did the trainee program go, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I mean, but the majority of students there were Black. And it was all male.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah. Okay. And how did the trainee program go, I mean?

[User] Oh, the training program went very well. I mean, we had, um, I think it was the same kinds of problems that Peace Corps might have had with its other training programs. But, I mean, there were no problems on campus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That, you know, everyone, you know, mixed freely, I mean. Although the training group was somewhat isolated because they had all the classes during blocks of time and the meals and different things like that. But they were certainly free to move around campus and they were certainly welcome. And we utilized the, um, the resources that were on campus, the human resources on campus for our.

[Assistant] Do you remember who ran the program, who was the director of the training faculty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That, you know, everyone, you know, mixed freely, I mean. Although the training group was somewhat isolated because they had all the classes during blocks of time and the meals and different things like that. But they were certainly free to move around campus and they were certainly welcome. And we utilized the, um, the resources that were on campus, the human resources on campus for our.

[Assistant] Do you remember who ran the program, who was the director of the training faculty?

[User] From Peace Corps?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Bob Binswanger.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. And your role was kind of a?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't recall his first name right now. We had nicknames for all the professors, but the training director from Peace Corps Washington was Bob Binswanger.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And at that time, interesting enough, Tom Quimby was the director in Liberia.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so he visited the campus and everything else.

[Assistant] And you met him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And at that time, interesting enough, Tom Quimby was the director in Liberia.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so he visited the campus and everything else.

[Assistant] And you met him?

[User] And that's where I met him.

[Assistant] Yeah. Training program was over. You had finished your degree.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so he visited the campus and everything else.

[Assistant] And you met him?

[User] And that's where I met him.

[Assistant] Yeah. Training program was over. You had finished your degree.

[User] No, I finished my degree before the training program.

[Assistant] Okay. What were your future plans at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's where I met him.

[Assistant] Yeah. Training program was over. You had finished your degree.

[User] No, I finished my degree before the training program.

[Assistant] Okay. What were your future plans at that point?

[User] I went down to Peace Corps. I was asked to come down to the Peace Corps Washington to work.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went down to Peace Corps. I was asked to come down to the Peace Corps Washington to work.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.

[User] Because, uh, and one of the, one of the reasons is that, uh. I have to go back just a little bit. At the commencement of '62, I believe it was, of, at Lincoln University.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That, um. They have the alumni reunions and one night in the dorm met some people. And we started sitting down, played some poker, drank some liquor, and all that. And one of those people happened to be Franklin Williams.

[Assistant] I was going to say that, you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or at that time we were Negroes or whatever.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And that to, you know, to do these kinds of things when there's so much work that needs to be done here.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so all during this poker game and, uh, several glasses of scotch and everything else, you know, we, you know, we had some interesting back and forth.

[Assistant] Do you recall what his stance was about, on that issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that to, you know, to do these kinds of things when there's so much work that needs to be done here.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so all during this poker game and, uh, several glasses of scotch and everything else, you know, we, you know, we had some interesting back and forth.

[Assistant] Do you recall what his stance was about, on that issue?

[User] Not exactly. Other than that he felt that it was also a way in which, while he agreed and because, you know, and he came from that background, he was head of the NAACP out in California and everything else, is that he, he saw this. And these are not his words, but this is the essence of what I think that he said, is that you can look at. There's a lot that needs to be done here, but going overseas and seeing other things and doing what you're doing can give you a different perspective of what it is in the United States. And he was absolutely right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Was there any sense, I mean, did he talk in terms of the kind of the Kennedy image of Peace Corps, that it was important for, quote, Americans to be making this gesture to countries, or was it more closer to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not exactly. Other than that he felt that it was also a way in which, while he agreed and because, you know, and he came from that background, he was head of the NAACP out in California and everything else, is that he, he saw this. And these are not his words, but this is the essence of what I think that he said, is that you can look at. There's a lot that needs to be done here, but going overseas and seeing other things and doing what you're doing can give you a different perspective of what it is in the United States. And he was absolutely right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Was there any sense, I mean, did he talk in terms of the kind of the Kennedy image of Peace Corps, that it was important for, quote, Americans to be making this gesture to countries, or was it more closer to?

[User] He was, he was more, Frank was more pragmatic with that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He, I mean, he didn't, you know, at least during this session, I mean, that it wasn't, he wasn't the, you know, rah rah rah rah Kennedy this, that, and the other and got to. No, no, no. He didn't, that was, that was not, that is not what he did.

[Assistant] During this time, was there a conscious attempt to do Peace Corps recruitment on the Lincoln campus? Do you recall that particularly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was, he was more, Frank was more pragmatic with that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He, I mean, he didn't, you know, at least during this session, I mean, that it wasn't, he wasn't the, you know, rah rah rah rah Kennedy this, that, and the other and got to. No, no, no. He didn't, that was, that was not, that is not what he did.

[Assistant] During this time, was there a conscious attempt to do Peace Corps recruitment on the Lincoln campus? Do you recall that particularly?

[User] When, when he was there? No, he was just there for his reunion and to interact with, you know, with, with the folk.

[Assistant] And nobody invited?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He, I mean, he didn't, you know, at least during this session, I mean, that it wasn't, he wasn't the, you know, rah rah rah rah Kennedy this, that, and the other and got to. No, no, no. He didn't, that was, that was not, that is not what he did.

[Assistant] During this time, was there a conscious attempt to do Peace Corps recruitment on the Lincoln campus? Do you recall that particularly?

[User] When, when he was there? No, he was just there for his reunion and to interact with, you know, with, with the folk.

[Assistant] And nobody invited?

[User] Now he may have talked to administrators, which I didn't know, about the possibility. I'm sure that he was instrumental in a training program coming to Lincoln's campus.

[Assistant] Yeah. You don't recall being involved with recruitment on the Lincoln campus at this time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When, when he was there? No, he was just there for his reunion and to interact with, you know, with, with the folk.

[Assistant] And nobody invited?

[User] Now he may have talked to administrators, which I didn't know, about the possibility. I'm sure that he was instrumental in a training program coming to Lincoln's campus.

[Assistant] Yeah. You don't recall being involved with recruitment on the Lincoln campus at this time?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] So. The meeting with Williams, the Liberia program's done, you're asked to come on up to Washington, and I gather you did so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now he may have talked to administrators, which I didn't know, about the possibility. I'm sure that he was instrumental in a training program coming to Lincoln's campus.

[Assistant] Yeah. You don't recall being involved with recruitment on the Lincoln campus at this time?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] So. The meeting with Williams, the Liberia program's done, you're asked to come on up to Washington, and I gather you did so?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was your position or what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a classification officer.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And what I did, and I was in the division of selection.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And what I did was essentially selected people for various programs, so that if you applied, um. And I primarily dealt with Africa, but also, you know, to some extent, sometimes Latin America. And that I would review the applications and everything else and select them for the various programs that we had available.

[Assistant] And based on your decision an invitation would go out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And what I did, and I was in the division of selection.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And what I did was essentially selected people for various programs, so that if you applied, um. And I primarily dealt with Africa, but also, you know, to some extent, sometimes Latin America. And that I would review the applications and everything else and select them for the various programs that we had available.

[Assistant] And based on your decision an invitation would go out?

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] Do you recall the, I'm just interested in this. So what was the dossier or the file that you would have on any individual? It would be their application. References. Was there still a Peace Corps exam then that they had to take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And what I did was essentially selected people for various programs, so that if you applied, um. And I primarily dealt with Africa, but also, you know, to some extent, sometimes Latin America. And that I would review the applications and everything else and select them for the various programs that we had available.

[Assistant] And based on your decision an invitation would go out?

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] Do you recall the, I'm just interested in this. So what was the dossier or the file that you would have on any individual? It would be their application. References. Was there still a Peace Corps exam then that they had to take?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And FBI background.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] Do you recall the, I'm just interested in this. So what was the dossier or the file that you would have on any individual? It would be their application. References. Was there still a Peace Corps exam then that they had to take?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And FBI background.

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] Or would that come later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And FBI background.

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] Or would that come later?

[User] The background sometimes came later, after they were invited.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. And were there like 100 possibilities for each slot or was it sort of shifting whoever was available into the slots that were around?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] Or would that come later?

[User] The background sometimes came later, after they were invited.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. And were there like 100 possibilities for each slot or was it sort of shifting whoever was available into the slots that were around?

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] There are different stories about this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, it's funny, it is that it depended upon the country. Some countries you had a lot of flexibility. Other countries you didn't. I mean, like, for example, in Ghana, there was not a hell of a lot of flexibility. I mean, they wanted science teachers, geography teachers, and stuff like that. And so you sort of had to be on target with that. Nigeria was like that and everything else. In Ethiopia, anything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The Philippines, anything.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, that's, we'd fill, we fill these programs, I mean, you know, with all these AB generalists and things like that. Then of course, if there are programs that, you know, that required secretaries or lawyers or different things, veterinarians or what have you, then of course you had to, uh. Those are harder things to fill.

[Assistant] Who was your boss in selection, or who was the head of selection? Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, that's, we'd fill, we fill these programs, I mean, you know, with all these AB generalists and things like that. Then of course, if there are programs that, you know, that required secretaries or lawyers or different things, veterinarians or what have you, then of course you had to, uh. Those are harder things to fill.

[Assistant] Who was your boss in selection, or who was the head of selection? Do you remember?

[User] Oh, I should have thought about that.

[Assistant] Not important.

[User] But the first one, basically, he used to work for Exxon. He had been head of, I guess now what would be human resources for Exxon. That may come to me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How long did you stay in the selection division or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From, for about a year and a half.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I then left and went into training for, uh, for the first group that went to Kenya. Originally, I selected, I selected my own program.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that I knew was coming, what was coming down the pike. And originally I was going to go to Uganda and there was a refugee program that was going to be going on, and that sort of fell through. And at the same time that the Kenya program came online. And so then I decided to go into, into that one. And all of my stuff was handled internally and in the director's office. In fact, no one knew other than a few people that I had applied. And my, and in fact when I, in fact when I went to training, you know, no one knew that I had worked in Washington for Peace Corps. And we wanted it like that. And we had to do this little bio thing that it said, I just said I was a minor bureaucrat in Washington.

[Assistant] You fudged. Yeah, okay. What, what motivated you to decide to go to the, for the Ghana, for the Kenya project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I then left and went into training for, uh, for the first group that went to Kenya. Originally, I selected, I selected my own program.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that I knew was coming, what was coming down the pike. And originally I was going to go to Uganda and there was a refugee program that was going to be going on, and that sort of fell through. And at the same time that the Kenya program came online. And so then I decided to go into, into that one. And all of my stuff was handled internally and in the director's office. In fact, no one knew other than a few people that I had applied. And my, and in fact when I, in fact when I went to training, you know, no one knew that I had worked in Washington for Peace Corps. And we wanted it like that. And we had to do this little bio thing that it said, I just said I was a minor bureaucrat in Washington.

[Assistant] You fudged. Yeah, okay. What, what motivated you to decide to go to the, for the Ghana, for the Kenya project?

[User] One, it seemed interesting. And in the sense that, um, I really liked the Uganda program because it's still refugees and trying people to get resettled, you know, seeing people displaced and everything else. And then the Kenya program, to some extent, which was a land resettlement program, was in some ways the same, the same kind of thing in different ways, except that people had more of an opportunity for self-sufficiency, which in Uganda, they really, they really didn't. It was just trying to make them more comfortable and in a, in a place that, you know, that was foreign to them.

[Assistant] You had no particular interest in teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that I knew was coming, what was coming down the pike. And originally I was going to go to Uganda and there was a refugee program that was going to be going on, and that sort of fell through. And at the same time that the Kenya program came online. And so then I decided to go into, into that one. And all of my stuff was handled internally and in the director's office. In fact, no one knew other than a few people that I had applied. And my, and in fact when I, in fact when I went to training, you know, no one knew that I had worked in Washington for Peace Corps. And we wanted it like that. And we had to do this little bio thing that it said, I just said I was a minor bureaucrat in Washington.

[Assistant] You fudged. Yeah, okay. What, what motivated you to decide to go to the, for the Ghana, for the Kenya project?

[User] One, it seemed interesting. And in the sense that, um, I really liked the Uganda program because it's still refugees and trying people to get resettled, you know, seeing people displaced and everything else. And then the Kenya program, to some extent, which was a land resettlement program, was in some ways the same, the same kind of thing in different ways, except that people had more of an opportunity for self-sufficiency, which in Uganda, they really, they really didn't. It was just trying to make them more comfortable and in a, in a place that, you know, that was foreign to them.

[Assistant] You had no particular interest in teaching?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Because the initial Kenya group was a group of teachers and the land settlement group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One, it seemed interesting. And in the sense that, um, I really liked the Uganda program because it's still refugees and trying people to get resettled, you know, seeing people displaced and everything else. And then the Kenya program, to some extent, which was a land resettlement program, was in some ways the same, the same kind of thing in different ways, except that people had more of an opportunity for self-sufficiency, which in Uganda, they really, they really didn't. It was just trying to make them more comfortable and in a, in a place that, you know, that was foreign to them.

[Assistant] You had no particular interest in teaching?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Because the initial Kenya group was a group of teachers and the land settlement group.

[User] Let me make the record straight.

[Assistant] Okay. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kenya I was the land resettlement group.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Kenya II, the teachers.

[Assistant] Good. Okay.

[User] And when we arrived in Kenya, the teachers stood in the back, while Kenya I.

[Assistant] Stood up and sang.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kenya II, the teachers.

[Assistant] Good. Okay.

[User] And when we arrived in Kenya, the teachers stood in the back, while Kenya I.

[Assistant] Stood up and sang.

[User] Sang.

[Assistant] Up to, up to the time. That's an issue in a lot of places. Up to the time you went into the training for Kenya, had you learned, had you studied any languages?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when we arrived in Kenya, the teachers stood in the back, while Kenya I.

[Assistant] Stood up and sang.

[User] Sang.

[Assistant] Up to, up to the time. That's an issue in a lot of places. Up to the time you went into the training for Kenya, had you learned, had you studied any languages?

[User] Yes, I was, I was, at that time I was fairly, fairly good in French. And I, and, and believe it or not, I was semi-fluent in Latin.

[Assistant] In Latin? Were you ever considering becoming a priest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was, I was, at that time I was fairly, fairly good in French. And I, and, and believe it or not, I was semi-fluent in Latin.

[Assistant] In Latin? Were you ever considering becoming a priest?

[User] No, no, no. But I took Latin all through high school, and I, and I used it as my language requirement in college and I, um, I think I took Latin 3 and Latin 4.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] I liked it. It was easy. And I always figured that, hey, if I need a good, a good grade, that was a way in which to get it.

[Assistant] Okay, so now kind of you report where for the training? Let me just back up. Your family's reaction to, and friends, your reaction to saying, well, I'm going to go to Kenya with the Peace Corps. You remember anything about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I liked it. It was easy. And I always figured that, hey, if I need a good, a good grade, that was a way in which to get it.

[Assistant] Okay, so now kind of you report where for the training? Let me just back up. Your family's reaction to, and friends, your reaction to saying, well, I'm going to go to Kenya with the Peace Corps. You remember anything about that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Thought I was crazy.

[Assistant] Okay. Because they thought, well, you can have a career in Washington and why mess it or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thought I was crazy.

[Assistant] Okay. Because they thought, well, you can have a career in Washington and why mess it or?

[User] Well, you know, the, the idea at that time in 1964 of going overseas and living in a foreign country and being a volunteer and things like that and not a paying job, and that was, in particular in the Black community, I mean, that was not something that was, you know, people just didn't understand that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] To any great extent. Now, you know, while I received support but, you know, sure it was questioned in the minds of my family and a number of my friends and things like that.

[Assistant] What do you think, what was your own motivation for doing it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that that was me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And then in all honesty, the third factor which made me go when I did was because I got drafted.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that, uh, I had to make a decision, you know, as to whether or not that I wanted to go into the Army or go overseas as a volunteer. And I decided that I would take my chances and go overseas as a volunteer. And if when I came back home, if I got drafted, then.

[Assistant] So be it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then in all honesty, the third factor which made me go when I did was because I got drafted.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that, uh, I had to make a decision, you know, as to whether or not that I wanted to go into the Army or go overseas as a volunteer. And I decided that I would take my chances and go overseas as a volunteer. And if when I came back home, if I got drafted, then.

[Assistant] So be it.

[User] So be it. Yeah.

[Assistant] And your board obviously was one that was willing to offer the deferment? I mean, it wasn't automatic, the board had to decide.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that, uh, I had to make a decision, you know, as to whether or not that I wanted to go into the Army or go overseas as a volunteer. And I decided that I would take my chances and go overseas as a volunteer. And if when I came back home, if I got drafted, then.

[Assistant] So be it.

[User] So be it. Yeah.

[Assistant] And your board obviously was one that was willing to offer the deferment? I mean, it wasn't automatic, the board had to decide.

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Now you report out to Milwaukee, am I right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So be it. Yeah.

[Assistant] And your board obviously was one that was willing to offer the deferment? I mean, it wasn't automatic, the board had to decide.

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Now you report out to Milwaukee, am I right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And meet the Kenya group. What kind of culture shock did you go through in first meeting the group? What was your impression?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And meet the Kenya group. What kind of culture shock did you go through in first meeting the group? What was your impression?

[User] Uh, I didn't go through any culture group, cultural shock at all. That, you know, I think that our group, you know, melded very well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, there are a lot of, you know, similar interests and, um. And for purposes of the interview, I'll, I'll be honest and say that I knew more about them than they knew about me.

[Assistant] Well, of course you would. Yeah, okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, there are a lot of, you know, similar interests and, um. And for purposes of the interview, I'll, I'll be honest and say that I knew more about them than they knew about me.

[Assistant] Well, of course you would. Yeah, okay.

[User] Because I had selected a number of the people who had, was in the group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Although that I have to say that I did not, for those that I didn't know, I had not gone and looked at their files. The ones who were in the group were those that happen to come across my desk and everything else. And I didn't know who all the final group was that went out there until I got there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. How many were, how many were in the group? Do you recall? Approximately.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I had selected a number of the people who had, was in the group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Although that I have to say that I did not, for those that I didn't know, I had not gone and looked at their files. The ones who were in the group were those that happen to come across my desk and everything else. And I didn't know who all the final group was that went out there until I got there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. How many were, how many were in the group? Do you recall? Approximately.

[User] About 38. And I think 33 of us went over.

[Assistant] And the, um.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Although that I have to say that I did not, for those that I didn't know, I had not gone and looked at their files. The ones who were in the group were those that happen to come across my desk and everything else. And I didn't know who all the final group was that went out there until I got there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. How many were, how many were in the group? Do you recall? Approximately.

[User] About 38. And I think 33 of us went over.

[Assistant] And the, um.

[User] We had three married couples.

[Assistant] Three married couples.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About 38. And I think 33 of us went over.

[Assistant] And the, um.

[User] We had three married couples.

[Assistant] Three married couples.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. And what was the, the role that you were being trained for? Was that fairly well defined in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. And what was the, the role that you were being trained for? Was that fairly well defined in training?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. I think for, you know, for some of us it was. We, we knew the kind of project that we're being involved in. We knew that we were going to work for the Ministry of Lands and Settlement. We knew that we were going to be assigned to a settlement scheme, either large scale or short scale, and that you might be assigned to a co-op or something like. And I think prepared us for that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that what you did was to take some AB generalists, basically.

[Assistant] How would, how would you characterize the background of the group? I mean, you, you were coming in with a, essentially with a degree in psychology.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. I think for, you know, for some of us it was. We, we knew the kind of project that we're being involved in. We knew that we were going to work for the Ministry of Lands and Settlement. We knew that we were going to be assigned to a settlement scheme, either large scale or short scale, and that you might be assigned to a co-op or something like. And I think prepared us for that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that what you did was to take some AB generalists, basically.

[Assistant] How would, how would you characterize the background of the group? I mean, you, you were coming in with a, essentially with a degree in psychology.

[User] It varied. I mean, we had a couple of lawyers in the group, that others had degrees in anthropology and English and whatever.

[Assistant] Was there anyone who came from an agricultural background?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, because that for the most part, we didn't. I didn't need to be an agriculturalist per se. What I had to do was to be able to organize, get things done, and everything else, and I had the supports to do it, unlike some folk who might have gone to other places in community development projects and just thrown out there.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And everything else. Because, you know, for example, where I was, I worked on a settlement scheme that was, that had three parts of it. I was in charge of one of them. The whole thing had 14,000 acres, which had been three farms owned by Europeans. It had then been bought out, they had been bought out and then the land was resold to 364 African farmers.

[Assistant] Individuals, yeah.

[User] That, uh, who were going to take that and turn it, and most of them coming from a subsistence farm economy to a cash crop. And so our, our job, my job was to, one, was to help them do that. And to do that, though, I had, since we, our crops were tea, pyrethrum, maize, and milk cream. And to take those, those four things using best practices and helping them to understand best practices.

[Assistant] And there was a governmental structure within Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And everything else. Because, you know, for example, where I was, I worked on a settlement scheme that was, that had three parts of it. I was in charge of one of them. The whole thing had 14,000 acres, which had been three farms owned by Europeans. It had then been bought out, they had been bought out and then the land was resold to 364 African farmers.

[Assistant] Individuals, yeah.

[User] That, uh, who were going to take that and turn it, and most of them coming from a subsistence farm economy to a cash crop. And so our, our job, my job was to, one, was to help them do that. And to do that, though, I had, since we, our crops were tea, pyrethrum, maize, and milk cream. And to take those, those four things using best practices and helping them to understand best practices.

[Assistant] And there was a governmental structure within Kenya?

[User] That is correct. That is correct. I mean, I was really, I ran a government office.

[Assistant] Yeah. So that it wasn't as if you were operating in a vacuum and deciding what was appropriate. You, you had certain guides.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That, uh, who were going to take that and turn it, and most of them coming from a subsistence farm economy to a cash crop. And so our, our job, my job was to, one, was to help them do that. And to do that, though, I had, since we, our crops were tea, pyrethrum, maize, and milk cream. And to take those, those four things using best practices and helping them to understand best practices.

[Assistant] And there was a governmental structure within Kenya?

[User] That is correct. That is correct. I mean, I was really, I ran a government office.

[Assistant] Yeah. So that it wasn't as if you were operating in a vacuum and deciding what was appropriate. You, you had certain guides.

[User] That's right. And we had veterinary staff, we had agricultural staff.

[Assistant] Let's jump back to training before you get to Kenya.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is correct. That is correct. I mean, I was really, I ran a government office.

[Assistant] Yeah. So that it wasn't as if you were operating in a vacuum and deciding what was appropriate. You, you had certain guides.

[User] That's right. And we had veterinary staff, we had agricultural staff.

[Assistant] Let's jump back to training before you get to Kenya.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I assume there was an emphasis on language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And we had veterinary staff, we had agricultural staff.

[Assistant] Let's jump back to training before you get to Kenya.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I assume there was an emphasis on language.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How? Tell me about the language training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that we had language training several hours a day. Every day.

[Assistant] Was it?

[User] Five days a week.

[Assistant] Completely conversational?

[User] Uh, not. No, it wasn't completely conversational. It was also in, in working in terms of what you're doing. So it wasn't just, you know, hello, how are you? This set me up.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were you made aware of the fact that your ability in the language, in Swahili, would affect the selection process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five days a week.

[Assistant] Completely conversational?

[User] Uh, not. No, it wasn't completely conversational. It was also in, in working in terms of what you're doing. So it wasn't just, you know, hello, how are you? This set me up.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were you made aware of the fact that your ability in the language, in Swahili, would affect the selection process?

[User] That's correct. Absolutely. Everyone, everyone understood that.

[Assistant] And what was it that they understood?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. Absolutely. Everyone, everyone understood that.

[Assistant] And what was it that they understood?

[User] That if you didn't pick up the language, you probably might be deselected simply because that whatever you did, because of where you're going to be.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Unless you got assigned to as Jim Finucan and some of the others to Nairobi, that you were going to have to work in the language. And me, you know, as others did, worked in two languages. I worked in Swahili and Kinandi, you know. Some worked in Kiswahili and Kikuyu.

[Assistant] But you went in with a certain level of competence in Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That if you didn't pick up the language, you probably might be deselected simply because that whatever you did, because of where you're going to be.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Unless you got assigned to as Jim Finucan and some of the others to Nairobi, that you were going to have to work in the language. And me, you know, as others did, worked in two languages. I worked in Swahili and Kinandi, you know. Some worked in Kiswahili and Kikuyu.

[Assistant] But you went in with a certain level of competence in Swahili?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that measurable, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that measurable, I mean?

[User] Yes. Yeah. I mean, they, they had ways in which they measured it. A lot of it was based on Foreign Service test kinds of stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then, and then actually when, when we completed our, our service, you were again tested in terms.

[Assistant] Oh, at the end of the Peace Corps?