[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, except that we still had some contracts with the education and training people. Frank Hoban. Do you remember him at all? He’s more of a Headquarters guy. Bob Freitag. All those guys are dead.

[Assistant] Must have been interesting for you to hire Sam Phillips to work as part of your operation after you had worked under him.

[User] A small side note. He was easy to work with, and I got to know him. But he was still a four-star general. Even in a business suit, he’s a four-star general. Well, he was coming into our office to get signed up for this task, and I greeted him at the elevator and said, “Hi, Sam, how you doing?” He [shrugged my hand off his shoulder.] It’s just, you just don’t put your hand around a four-star general and say, “Hi, how the hell are you?”

[Assistant] Not ever.

[User] Not ever, right. But he was very nice. He was another gentleman.

[Assistant] I remember when we first started the conversation, we talked about you being 25 and you were working with these pioneers. You talked about Chris Kraft, and you mentioned George Low. I know, as you said, you weren’t in those high-powered meetings, but you certainly were there. Can you give us some impressions of some of these?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A small side note. He was easy to work with, and I got to know him. But he was still a four-star general. Even in a business suit, he’s a four-star general. Well, he was coming into our office to get signed up for this task, and I greeted him at the elevator and said, “Hi, Sam, how you doing?” He [shrugged my hand off his shoulder.] It’s just, you just don’t put your hand around a four-star general and say, “Hi, how the hell are you?”

[Assistant] Not ever.

[User] Not ever, right. But he was very nice. He was another gentleman.

[Assistant] I remember when we first started the conversation, we talked about you being 25 and you were working with these pioneers. You talked about Chris Kraft, and you mentioned George Low. I know, as you said, you weren’t in those high-powered meetings, but you certainly were there. Can you give us some impressions of some of these?

[User] George Low, he was an aristocrat. He had that air about him. I think he was Austrian, so he was a very commanding person, a very forthright person. You could talk to him. You could tell him whatever you felt like telling him. In fact he gave me one of my grades [promotions]. So he was okay to work with, but he was another, quote, four-star general, but not a general. But you know what I mean. He was more a control person from the standpoint of a big project. He took over from—what was the guy that had to leave after Apollo 1?

[Assistant] Joe [Joseph F.] Shea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not ever, right. But he was very nice. He was another gentleman.

[Assistant] I remember when we first started the conversation, we talked about you being 25 and you were working with these pioneers. You talked about Chris Kraft, and you mentioned George Low. I know, as you said, you weren’t in those high-powered meetings, but you certainly were there. Can you give us some impressions of some of these?

[User] George Low, he was an aristocrat. He had that air about him. I think he was Austrian, so he was a very commanding person, a very forthright person. You could talk to him. You could tell him whatever you felt like telling him. In fact he gave me one of my grades [promotions]. So he was okay to work with, but he was another, quote, four-star general, but not a general. But you know what I mean. He was more a control person from the standpoint of a big project. He took over from—what was the guy that had to leave after Apollo 1?

[Assistant] Joe [Joseph F.] Shea.

[User] Joe Shea. Joe Shea was supposed to be in that [Apollo 1] spacecraft that morning. Did you know that?

[Assistant] No I didn’t.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] George Low, he was an aristocrat. He had that air about him. I think he was Austrian, so he was a very commanding person, a very forthright person. You could talk to him. You could tell him whatever you felt like telling him. In fact he gave me one of my grades [promotions]. So he was okay to work with, but he was another, quote, four-star general, but not a general. But you know what I mean. He was more a control person from the standpoint of a big project. He took over from—what was the guy that had to leave after Apollo 1?

[Assistant] Joe [Joseph F.] Shea.

[User] Joe Shea. Joe Shea was supposed to be in that [Apollo 1] spacecraft that morning. Did you know that?

[Assistant] No I didn’t.

[User] From what I heard. I don’t know if this is true or not. I think it’s true. It was a plugs-out test or something. I forgot what they called it. So I think he always wanted to see what goes on, so I think he was going to sit down in the navigator’s [station] down below there and just watch things happen. Then for some reasons somebody said, “No, it’s just—they’re going to be in full suits, it’s an all-up test, there’s just no room.” So he never did go in there.

[Assistant] Many have talked about how Apollo 1 literally changed the course. Do you agree with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I spent the most time on Apollo 7. In fact, I’ll give you something too. Remind me to give you this thing. Kranz asked me the same thing, what are the most important things? This I’ll just give you [referring to document]. This was my feelings after Apollo 1. Kranz asked me, “What mission in each program was your favorite?” Well, John Glenn because it was my first in the Mercury Control Center for sure, and it was so exciting, and it was over in three orbits. It went from—oh, it’s over. Gemini ’76 first rendezvous. Apollo 7. I busted my buns on Apollo 7. Skylab, I only worked on it for a short time, but I enjoyed it.\n\n From the standpoint of five events that you remember most, Glenn, ’76, the Apollo 1 fire, Apollo 8, from the standpoint of the first humans to leave a planet. That’s pretty far out. Of course the lunar landing, which I was not on as a flight controller. I was still flying and suit testing. But at least I did my contribution to the suit world on that one. So in fact, I should give you this too. I’ll go make a copy of this.

[Assistant] Speaking of Gene Kranz, when I was reading through some things, I noted in his book that it talks about the first time that he put on his white vest, and you were sitting next to him. I got so tickled that he describes you as gently rolling your eyes, I think.

[User] Didn’t I say something like—I said something on the loop like—okay, what was that? It was in one of those books. Like “I think we need to get the white jacket guys in here” or something like that. The other white jacket guys in here.

[Assistant] I don’t think he shared that in his book.

[User] Well, I know him like a brother.

[Assistant] He mentioned how you sat next to him many a days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn’t I say something like—I said something on the loop like—okay, what was that? It was in one of those books. Like “I think we need to get the white jacket guys in here” or something like that. The other white jacket guys in here.

[Assistant] I don’t think he shared that in his book.

[User] Well, I know him like a brother.

[Assistant] He mentioned how you sat next to him many a days.

[User] I love the whole family. The whole family is just wonderful. They lived down the street from us. I used to go to Gene’s house and I said, “Gene, what are you doing?” He said, “Oh, I’m giving the kids a bath.” I go in there. He’s got them all lined up like soldiers, ready to get into the tub. Each one. You know that’s what he would do, right? “All right. Next. Come here. You’re out of here. Next.”

[Assistant] Well, with five I guess he had to have some system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I know him like a brother.

[Assistant] He mentioned how you sat next to him many a days.

[User] I love the whole family. The whole family is just wonderful. They lived down the street from us. I used to go to Gene’s house and I said, “Gene, what are you doing?” He said, “Oh, I’m giving the kids a bath.” I go in there. He’s got them all lined up like soldiers, ready to get into the tub. Each one. You know that’s what he would do, right? “All right. Next. Come here. You’re out of here. Next.”

[Assistant] Well, with five I guess he had to have some system.

[User] Six, isn’t it?

[Assistant] Six I think, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I love the whole family. The whole family is just wonderful. They lived down the street from us. I used to go to Gene’s house and I said, “Gene, what are you doing?” He said, “Oh, I’m giving the kids a bath.” I go in there. He’s got them all lined up like soldiers, ready to get into the tub. Each one. You know that’s what he would do, right? “All right. Next. Come here. You’re out of here. Next.”

[Assistant] Well, with five I guess he had to have some system.

[User] Six, isn’t it?

[Assistant] Six I think, yes.

[User] One of them was conceived in my house. Did you know that?

[Assistant] I read that in the book, yes. It was a little bit more than I wanted to know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Six, isn’t it?

[Assistant] Six I think, yes.

[User] One of them was conceived in my house. Did you know that?

[Assistant] I read that in the book, yes. It was a little bit more than I wanted to know.

[User] TMI [too much information] there?

[Assistant] Did you live down the street from him in Dickinson, [Texas] or when you all were still in Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of them was conceived in my house. Did you know that?

[Assistant] I read that in the book, yes. It was a little bit more than I wanted to know.

[User] TMI [too much information] there?

[Assistant] Did you live down the street from him in Dickinson, [Texas] or when you all were still in Houston?

[User] No, before then, it was in Sun Valley.

[Assistant] In Sun Valley.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] TMI [too much information] there?

[Assistant] Did you live down the street from him in Dickinson, [Texas] or when you all were still in Houston?

[User] No, before then, it was in Sun Valley.

[Assistant] In Sun Valley.

[User] Yes, it was one of those houses that we all picked out together.

[Assistant] You ended up in Florida for a little while. Were you working down there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, before then, it was in Sun Valley.

[Assistant] In Sun Valley.

[User] Yes, it was one of those houses that we all picked out together.

[Assistant] You ended up in Florida for a little while. Were you working down there?

[User] Well, that’s much after. Well, you’re talking about during Mercury, you mean? Or much after?

[Assistant] No, after you left the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was one of those houses that we all picked out together.

[Assistant] You ended up in Florida for a little while. Were you working down there?

[User] Well, that’s much after. Well, you’re talking about during Mercury, you mean? Or much after?

[Assistant] No, after you left the space program.

[User] Oh yes, yes, 15 years.

[Assistant] One of the other things I thought was interesting that you were talking about was you were in such good shape because you were into judo. Talk about that, because I know there’s several of you that were doing that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, we used to party all the time, yes. We were all very close, yes. We would always throw parties.

[Assistant] Having a good close neighborhood.

[User] Well, it was too close. When I moved to Nassau Bay—this is a true story. You don’t have to put this in there either. I saw six couples swap couples. Marriagewise as well. This guy would marry this guy, this wife would marry this guy, this guy would marry that wife, this guy would marry that one, that one. That was all on three streets. Can you imagine that?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well, that’s how tense some of these jobs were. People were just—the families would just get broken up. It was terrible. Very hard on families.

[Assistant] The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that when you first started, you were making $6,000 a year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was too close. When I moved to Nassau Bay—this is a true story. You don’t have to put this in there either. I saw six couples swap couples. Marriagewise as well. This guy would marry this guy, this wife would marry this guy, this guy would marry that wife, this guy would marry that one, that one. That was all on three streets. Can you imagine that?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well, that’s how tense some of these jobs were. People were just—the families would just get broken up. It was terrible. Very hard on families.

[Assistant] The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that when you first started, you were making $6,000 a year.

[User] Oh, no, no, no, this is a funny story. This goes back to Chris Critzos. I walk in. I’m making $3,600 a year teaching school. Which at the time was—you could—and I had a child. So when I rented a house at Langley first year, $60 a month, a house. So $3,600 was okay, but I’d like to make more. So I go to Langley and I talk to Chris Critzos, he hires me off the street. He says, “Okay, now let’s see. Got a degree in physics. Got one year experience. Okay, you’re going to be a GS-7.” I say, “What’s that?” He says, “That’s $6,345 a year.” I say, “Oh, I don’t need that much.” I kid you not. I told you I was green. Didn’t I tell you I was green?

[Assistant] But he certainly did not—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s how tense some of these jobs were. People were just—the families would just get broken up. It was terrible. Very hard on families.

[Assistant] The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that when you first started, you were making $6,000 a year.

[User] Oh, no, no, no, this is a funny story. This goes back to Chris Critzos. I walk in. I’m making $3,600 a year teaching school. Which at the time was—you could—and I had a child. So when I rented a house at Langley first year, $60 a month, a house. So $3,600 was okay, but I’d like to make more. So I go to Langley and I talk to Chris Critzos, he hires me off the street. He says, “Okay, now let’s see. Got a degree in physics. Got one year experience. Okay, you’re going to be a GS-7.” I say, “What’s that?” He says, “That’s $6,345 a year.” I say, “Oh, I don’t need that much.” I kid you not. I told you I was green. Didn’t I tell you I was green?

[Assistant] But he certainly did not—

[User] No, he said, “No, you got one year, and you got this, and you got GS-7.” That was it. That was it.

[Assistant] So you said, “Okay.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no, no, this is a funny story. This goes back to Chris Critzos. I walk in. I’m making $3,600 a year teaching school. Which at the time was—you could—and I had a child. So when I rented a house at Langley first year, $60 a month, a house. So $3,600 was okay, but I’d like to make more. So I go to Langley and I talk to Chris Critzos, he hires me off the street. He says, “Okay, now let’s see. Got a degree in physics. Got one year experience. Okay, you’re going to be a GS-7.” I say, “What’s that?” He says, “That’s $6,345 a year.” I say, “Oh, I don’t need that much.” I kid you not. I told you I was green. Didn’t I tell you I was green?

[Assistant] But he certainly did not—

[User] No, he said, “No, you got one year, and you got this, and you got GS-7.” That was it. That was it.

[Assistant] So you said, “Okay.”

[User] I couldn’t believe that somebody would pay me that kind of money. I just could not believe it.

[Assistant] That should have been a clue how much you were going to make an hour.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he said, “No, you got one year, and you got this, and you got GS-7.” That was it. That was it.

[Assistant] So you said, “Okay.”

[User] I couldn’t believe that somebody would pay me that kind of money. I just could not believe it.

[Assistant] That should have been a clue how much you were going to make an hour.

[User] Yes, I had no idea. I couldn’t conceive of that. Well, now that’s ’61. Now it’s 1962. I’m buying this house in Sun Valley. $250 down. I borrowed the $250 from my wife’s aunt. That was a lot of money. The bank says, “Well, you need to make $7,500.” I said, “Well, I’m up for GS-9 here soon.” So I go back to Gene. I said, “Gene, when am I going to get my 9?” He says, “Well, when you deserve it,” or something like that. I say, “Well, I need a letter that says I’m going to be a GS-9 someday.” So he writes me a letter. So I give that letter to the bank and I get a new house. I’m making I think it was like $8,000. I can get a new house and a car, all this stuff for the house. Life was good.

[Assistant] Amazing. It was amazing times for all. Is there anything else that you’d like to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had no idea. I couldn’t conceive of that. Well, now that’s ’61. Now it’s 1962. I’m buying this house in Sun Valley. $250 down. I borrowed the $250 from my wife’s aunt. That was a lot of money. The bank says, “Well, you need to make $7,500.” I said, “Well, I’m up for GS-9 here soon.” So I go back to Gene. I said, “Gene, when am I going to get my 9?” He says, “Well, when you deserve it,” or something like that. I say, “Well, I need a letter that says I’m going to be a GS-9 someday.” So he writes me a letter. So I give that letter to the bank and I get a new house. I’m making I think it was like $8,000. I can get a new house and a car, all this stuff for the house. Life was good.

[Assistant] Amazing. It was amazing times for all. Is there anything else that you’d like to?

[User] Read that stuff I gave you.

[Assistant] I will.

[User] I think there’s some good stuff in that article. I think that really encapsulates the spirit of flight control.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, we’ll do that. So we thank you for giving us your afternoon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Today is November 6th, 2018. This is Jay Sztuk and I'm interviewing Betty Smallwood, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Fiji from October 1969 through December of 1971. Betty worked as an elementary school teacher. Betty, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed today.

[User] You're welcome. And when they, when you do the record, I'd like you to put my maiden name in too. So it's Betty Ansin Smallwood.

[Assistant] Betty Ansin Smallwood. OK. Thanks, Betty. So let's start by having you tell us about how you originally heard about Peace Corps and why you decided to become a volunteer.

[User] Well, that's a nice story. 1959, John F. Kennedy, who lived in my town, was running for president. I went to hear him in Boston with my mom, and he was talking about this thing called, he was figuring it out. But he calling it the Corps de Paix, or the Peace Corps. And he had this idea. He said, when I become president, I'm going to start this for young people to go overseas and serve and to help other people. And I remember standing there with my mother and saying, I'm going to do that. I was 12 years old. She said, but Betty, how can you know this? You're 12 years old. I said, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it with a husband. She said I didn't have a boyfriend. I had never gone out on a date with anyone. But I was pretty clear.

[Assistant] You had a plan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's a nice story. 1959, John F. Kennedy, who lived in my town, was running for president. I went to hear him in Boston with my mom, and he was talking about this thing called, he was figuring it out. But he calling it the Corps de Paix, or the Peace Corps. And he had this idea. He said, when I become president, I'm going to start this for young people to go overseas and serve and to help other people. And I remember standing there with my mother and saying, I'm going to do that. I was 12 years old. She said, but Betty, how can you know this? You're 12 years old. I said, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it with a husband. She said I didn't have a boyfriend. I had never gone out on a date with anyone. But I was pretty clear.

[Assistant] You had a plan.

[User] I had a plan. I had a plan. So that's how I first heard about it. And then I was thrilled when he got elected and he started the Peace Corps. And unfortunately, he died before he could see much of it. But he did start it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So that's, it was part of my plan from the time I was an adolescent.

[Assistant] OK. So and then 1969 rolled around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a plan. I had a plan. So that's how I first heard about it. And then I was thrilled when he got elected and he started the Peace Corps. And unfortunately, he died before he could see much of it. But he did start it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So that's, it was part of my plan from the time I was an adolescent.

[Assistant] OK. So and then 1969 rolled around.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you? Tell me about your application process and the acceptance. And did you plan to go to Fiji? Was that part of this whole, this grand plan, or did that just happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn't know what it was. So then they brought in someone else who was saying to all three of us, you know, you stupid people, this is in the South Pacific. So this was getting better and better. So then they said, are you two married? The one from the South Pacific. And we said, no. And they said, well, we can send you to the same island, to the same country, to Fiji, if you're not married. But if you want to be on the same island, you have to be married. So I said, OK. It came from my New England experience of an island.

[Assistant] You had a Peace Corps shotgun wedding.

[User] We had a Peace Corps shotgun wedding. And I said, how many islands can there be? Thinking two, you know, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. That's all I knew. And so they said, oh, there are 330. So we looked at each other and we said, oh, well I guess we'll get married. I mean, we'd been living together for two and a half years, or three years, I can't remember. And we got married in July and we joined the Peace Corps in October.

[Assistant] Great. Great.

[User] And it was, it was. Yeah.

[Assistant] In 1970, you were one of the first groups. Not the first group, but one of the early groups to go to Fiji.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a Peace Corps shotgun wedding. And I said, how many islands can there be? Thinking two, you know, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. That's all I knew. And so they said, oh, there are 330. So we looked at each other and we said, oh, well I guess we'll get married. I mean, we'd been living together for two and a half years, or three years, I can't remember. And we got married in July and we joined the Peace Corps in October.

[Assistant] Great. Great.

[User] And it was, it was. Yeah.

[Assistant] In 1970, you were one of the first groups. Not the first group, but one of the early groups to go to Fiji.

[User] Yes, we were the second. Fiji IV. There was a Fiji II that was an education group. And Fiji III was a small group, I think they were fisheries or forestry, mostly guys. And then there was a Fiji I who was education. So we were the third education group. The thing that was notable about our group, aside from the fact that the lottery happened in December of that year.

[Assistant] A lottery for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was, it was. Yeah.

[Assistant] In 1970, you were one of the first groups. Not the first group, but one of the early groups to go to Fiji.

[User] Yes, we were the second. Fiji IV. There was a Fiji II that was an education group. And Fiji III was a small group, I think they were fisheries or forestry, mostly guys. And then there was a Fiji I who was education. So we were the third education group. The thing that was notable about our group, aside from the fact that the lottery happened in December of that year.

[Assistant] A lottery for?

[User] The draft. That was really, I mean, because I was a pacifist at that point. But the whole draft was traumatic. But. And so I will mention that shortly. But one of the things that was notable is that there were six couples and Fiji II had just lost three couples, married couples, which meant that they lost twice as many when you lose a married couple. So they were determined with Fiji IV, I don't know about Fiji I, we only heard about Fiji II losing half of their married couples. Because they wanted to.

[Assistant] You mean they left early?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They left early and the marriages broke up.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And both of them happened at the same time. So they were determined. They had hired psychologists this time and they were interviewing us, really, I mean, asking all kinds of personal questions, like about our sex life. And I said, that's none of your business. But they were really intent on making sure that we were going to stick it out, because they were also very clear that they planned to send the married couples to the outer islands. We were really filling teacher slots. People were leaving the rural areas.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we were going in to fill the teacher shortage, which was fine with us. And they also had had bad experiences with sending single volunteers to the outer islands. Because at that point the transportation, you know, if you were in Lau. Or actually Lau was more accessible than Kadavu and Lomaiviti at the time. So, yeah. That was distinctive. All the marriage training, marriage counseling. I liked that it was in Hawaii. I mean, of course, I've never been to Hawaii.

[Assistant] Your training was in Hawaii?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then they offered me the job. So I went back to the Peace Corps and said, I just got a job offer. This is really cool. I've never been in Hawaii before and I'm thinking of taking it. And they said, now Betty, you signed a contract to go to Fiji. I said, well they've offered John a job too. We can both stay here. And they said, no, you can't do that. You're under contract. You're one of our six married couples and we have a space for you in Fiji. Take our word for it, Fiji is more beautiful than Hawaii. So we said, OK, we'll try Fiji.

[Assistant] Do you ever regret that decision?

[User] No. But I've never been back to Hilo Elementary. I've never actually been back to Hilo. The other thing that happened to us in Hilo is that I experienced prejudice as a white person and I was a little thick because I didn't get it at first. They kept calling us haole, and it wasn't, I got that it wasn't a nice term. And then I sort of talked to the people and I said, so why don't you like me, just because I'm a white person? And they said, yes. And I said, my name is Betty. Hi, how are you? And so ultimately we got friends, but this is at the local coffee shop in town. But it sort of stuck in my mind that just because I was white, they didn't like me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was a, like, so I learned a lot in Hawaii.

[Assistant] So after your training in Hawaii, then you got on an airplane and you flew to Fiji.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But I've never been back to Hilo Elementary. I've never actually been back to Hilo. The other thing that happened to us in Hilo is that I experienced prejudice as a white person and I was a little thick because I didn't get it at first. They kept calling us haole, and it wasn't, I got that it wasn't a nice term. And then I sort of talked to the people and I said, so why don't you like me, just because I'm a white person? And they said, yes. And I said, my name is Betty. Hi, how are you? And so ultimately we got friends, but this is at the local coffee shop in town. But it sort of stuck in my mind that just because I was white, they didn't like me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was a, like, so I learned a lot in Hawaii.

[Assistant] So after your training in Hawaii, then you got on an airplane and you flew to Fiji.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was your first impression when you hit the ground there in Fiji? Do you have any memory of that arrival experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a, like, so I learned a lot in Hawaii.

[Assistant] So after your training in Hawaii, then you got on an airplane and you flew to Fiji.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was your first impression when you hit the ground there in Fiji? Do you have any memory of that arrival experience?

[User] No. A little bit overwhelmed.

[Assistant] Or was it no big deal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was your first impression when you hit the ground there in Fiji? Do you have any memory of that arrival experience?

[User] No. A little bit overwhelmed.

[Assistant] Or was it no big deal?

[User] No. We were excited. We had learned a little Fijian by then. What I do remember is that, and then they had us all over at Nasinu Training College. That's where we were. We didn't go do any home visits.

[Assistant] That was in Suva?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. A little bit overwhelmed.

[Assistant] Or was it no big deal?

[User] No. We were excited. We had learned a little Fijian by then. What I do remember is that, and then they had us all over at Nasinu Training College. That's where we were. We didn't go do any home visits.

[Assistant] That was in Suva?

[User] That was in Suva, outside of Suva. And we were there all of three or four days, three days. And then the director came. Oh, we have an assignment for John and Betty. We're going to send you out to Gau. I think they told us we were going to go to Gau. Navukailagi District School. And there's a boat leaving in two days and we don't know when the next boat is. So everyone says you should go on this boat. I said, go on the boat? I mean, it was like. So I think it was the shock of, maybe it was three days, I can't remember. But we had to get some canned goods and get some pots and pans and.

[Assistant] To set up a household there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We were excited. We had learned a little Fijian by then. What I do remember is that, and then they had us all over at Nasinu Training College. That's where we were. We didn't go do any home visits.

[Assistant] That was in Suva?

[User] That was in Suva, outside of Suva. And we were there all of three or four days, three days. And then the director came. Oh, we have an assignment for John and Betty. We're going to send you out to Gau. I think they told us we were going to go to Gau. Navukailagi District School. And there's a boat leaving in two days and we don't know when the next boat is. So everyone says you should go on this boat. I said, go on the boat? I mean, it was like. So I think it was the shock of, maybe it was three days, I can't remember. But we had to get some canned goods and get some pots and pans and.

[Assistant] To set up a household there?

[User] To set up a household. I mean, there are no stores there. So they told us there are no stores. And so it was just sort of like a blur. And that was like three days after arrival in country. And it's true, a next boat didn't come for about two months. The boats only came there about once every 2 to 3 months at that time.

[Assistant] But you went immediately after arriving in the country and there was two months until the next boat. So you didn't wait two months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in Suva, outside of Suva. And we were there all of three or four days, three days. And then the director came. Oh, we have an assignment for John and Betty. We're going to send you out to Gau. I think they told us we were going to go to Gau. Navukailagi District School. And there's a boat leaving in two days and we don't know when the next boat is. So everyone says you should go on this boat. I said, go on the boat? I mean, it was like. So I think it was the shock of, maybe it was three days, I can't remember. But we had to get some canned goods and get some pots and pans and.

[Assistant] To set up a household there?

[User] To set up a household. I mean, there are no stores there. So they told us there are no stores. And so it was just sort of like a blur. And that was like three days after arrival in country. And it's true, a next boat didn't come for about two months. The boats only came there about once every 2 to 3 months at that time.

[Assistant] But you went immediately after arriving in the country and there was two months until the next boat. So you didn't wait two months?

[User] No. We would have missed the beginning of school. So we arrived with some things and, um. Yeah. So that was my impression. So my real impression was arriving on this island, and I can't even remember where we stayed at first. Or they had a house they had. Oh, there was a Peace Corps there before us. Her name was Joanna. She was in Fiji II, and she fell in love with Jimmy, who was in Fiji II on the other side of Gau.

[Assistant] Another Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We would have missed the beginning of school. So we arrived with some things and, um. Yeah. So that was my impression. So my real impression was arriving on this island, and I can't even remember where we stayed at first. Or they had a house they had. Oh, there was a Peace Corps there before us. Her name was Joanna. She was in Fiji II, and she fell in love with Jimmy, who was in Fiji II on the other side of Gau.

[Assistant] Another Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Another Peace Corps volunteer. So she moved up to be with him even though they weren't married, which didn't seem to bother anyone then. And so we got Joanna's house.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] But they were away because it was school vacation. I don't know what happened. They came back. I can't remember that. I did see her. So we were just sort of there on this place. And I, that's when the Fijian really kicked in. And I remember. So we had this house, we had Joanna's bed, we had a table, we had a chair. And it was very comfortable. And I do remember the Fijians, they would tease us. And they would say, you know, we didn't kill anyone for the house. I said, huh? And they said, well, like in the old days, we would kill people and we would put four skulls under the posts to make the house strong. I said, oh. OK.

[Assistant] Well, it's funny that they would make a joke out of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Another Peace Corps volunteer. So she moved up to be with him even though they weren't married, which didn't seem to bother anyone then. And so we got Joanna's house.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] But they were away because it was school vacation. I don't know what happened. They came back. I can't remember that. I did see her. So we were just sort of there on this place. And I, that's when the Fijian really kicked in. And I remember. So we had this house, we had Joanna's bed, we had a table, we had a chair. And it was very comfortable. And I do remember the Fijians, they would tease us. And they would say, you know, we didn't kill anyone for the house. I said, huh? And they said, well, like in the old days, we would kill people and we would put four skulls under the posts to make the house strong. I said, oh. OK.

[Assistant] Well, it's funny that they would make a joke out of that.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And then we quickly learned. We got a cat right away. We call him Goosey Goosey, which means dish towel in Fiji. I don't, Fijian, dish rag. But there were mice pretty soon. So. But I remember writing home to my mother, who was a rather proper Bostonian lady, and I said, Mom, you'd be so, you should. I'm so happy. I have three houses. Imagine, I'm 22 years old and I have three houses. I have an eating house, sleeping house. I have an eating house and I have an outhouse. I think my mother was sort of proud that we had joined the Peace Corps. But, uh, and she came to visit.

[Assistant] Oh, she did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. And then we quickly learned. We got a cat right away. We call him Goosey Goosey, which means dish towel in Fiji. I don't, Fijian, dish rag. But there were mice pretty soon. So. But I remember writing home to my mother, who was a rather proper Bostonian lady, and I said, Mom, you'd be so, you should. I'm so happy. I have three houses. Imagine, I'm 22 years old and I have three houses. I have an eating house, sleeping house. I have an eating house and I have an outhouse. I think my mother was sort of proud that we had joined the Peace Corps. But, uh, and she came to visit.

[Assistant] Oh, she did?

[User] The following winter. My mother had cancer when I was in college. In fact, I left. I was at Washington University, and I came back. And so she was sort of in remission at that point. And she had another ten years and she died after that. But she came all the way. We couldn't get her to Gau because, you know, these boats didn't come very often, but we went to Ovalau. And some of the people from Gau from those villages were related to the people on the other on the side of Ovalau that looked at Gau.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so they went through all the ceremonies. And my mom sat on the ground, and they were good sports. And then we went to New Zealand for that winter break. But the couple of times. One of the questions is, what did you do during your breaks? Well, one, I served as a bride and matron of honor at the only time in my life that anyone has asked me to be in a, stand up for them, for marriage. And Pat Siplow and Bill Thomas, they were.

[Assistant] Other Peace Corps volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The following winter. My mother had cancer when I was in college. In fact, I left. I was at Washington University, and I came back. And so she was sort of in remission at that point. And she had another ten years and she died after that. But she came all the way. We couldn't get her to Gau because, you know, these boats didn't come very often, but we went to Ovalau. And some of the people from Gau from those villages were related to the people on the other on the side of Ovalau that looked at Gau.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so they went through all the ceremonies. And my mom sat on the ground, and they were good sports. And then we went to New Zealand for that winter break. But the couple of times. One of the questions is, what did you do during your breaks? Well, one, I served as a bride and matron of honor at the only time in my life that anyone has asked me to be in a, stand up for them, for marriage. And Pat Siplow and Bill Thomas, they were.

[Assistant] Other Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So they were, it's a long story. They'll have to tell you their story. But he's a great storyteller. And you should interview him, wonderful guy.

[Assistant] I'll make a note of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they went through all the ceremonies. And my mom sat on the ground, and they were good sports. And then we went to New Zealand for that winter break. But the couple of times. One of the questions is, what did you do during your breaks? Well, one, I served as a bride and matron of honor at the only time in my life that anyone has asked me to be in a, stand up for them, for marriage. And Pat Siplow and Bill Thomas, they were.

[Assistant] Other Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So they were, it's a long story. They'll have to tell you their story. But he's a great storyteller. And you should interview him, wonderful guy.

[Assistant] I'll make a note of that.

[User] Yeah. They're up in Rochester, New York. So we had visited them in Taveuni. And she took my measurements, and she made me a dress. And I kept the dress for years. Got married in the, uh, they got married in the Catholic Church. And the other times, the other big times we came in, sometimes we didn't come in because I didn't do very well on the oceans. And they were like 24 hour boat trips on the small copra boats, and I would get seasick. And sometimes the boat didn't come around school break.

[Assistant] You didn't mind staying out there on the atoll? You didn't get island fever or? You get antsy, you get anxious.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So they were, it's a long story. They'll have to tell you their story. But he's a great storyteller. And you should interview him, wonderful guy.

[Assistant] I'll make a note of that.

[User] Yeah. They're up in Rochester, New York. So we had visited them in Taveuni. And she took my measurements, and she made me a dress. And I kept the dress for years. Got married in the, uh, they got married in the Catholic Church. And the other times, the other big times we came in, sometimes we didn't come in because I didn't do very well on the oceans. And they were like 24 hour boat trips on the small copra boats, and I would get seasick. And sometimes the boat didn't come around school break.

[Assistant] You didn't mind staying out there on the atoll? You didn't get island fever or? You get antsy, you get anxious.

[User] Sort of. Yeah. And then there was one time, I think it was one time we were there for six months. And then after that, it was the principal who was from Tailevu who didn't want to be out there during the spring break. And he just closed the school. He said, enough. And we're leaving now. We'll come back, school will open when the next boat comes.

[Assistant] Oh, a long break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other thing I think I'd like to put in this interview or to communicate is that I really liked having my Peace Corps assignment being that of a teacher. I found, I've seen that current volunteers are like youth leaders and they say, oh, that's real. I read somewhere that that's real Peace Corps work. I found it, I liked being a teacher there. Not only did I learn that I like teaching, but it was a role they knew. I knew what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to go to each school every day.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they knew what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to go teach school every day. And then they took care of us because it was subsistence economy and we couldn't be expected to fish and farm. But so it all worked. And then we did community work around that. But our real job and, you know, they talked about the three goals of Peace Corps. I think I did my job for them. Provide technical assistance when requested, where requested. I taught school.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So it was, you could check me off. And enough of the kids passed the exam in sixth grade. And John taught seventh grade. They didn't trust us with the exam years, which was six and eight.

[Assistant] Well, that was the time when there was a teacher shortage in Fiji also.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they knew what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to go teach school every day. And then they took care of us because it was subsistence economy and we couldn't be expected to fish and farm. But so it all worked. And then we did community work around that. But our real job and, you know, they talked about the three goals of Peace Corps. I think I did my job for them. Provide technical assistance when requested, where requested. I taught school.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So it was, you could check me off. And enough of the kids passed the exam in sixth grade. And John taught seventh grade. They didn't trust us with the exam years, which was six and eight.

[Assistant] Well, that was the time when there was a teacher shortage in Fiji also.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So it really filled a need.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was, you could check me off. And enough of the kids passed the exam in sixth grade. And John taught seventh grade. They didn't trust us with the exam years, which was six and eight.

[Assistant] Well, that was the time when there was a teacher shortage in Fiji also.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So it really filled a need.

[User] Yeah, it filled the need. Yeah. So what else can I tell you about?

[Assistant] Let's back up, because I think we kind of skipped over when back when you volunteered to go into the Peace Corps. We didn't talk about your family and friends' reaction. Did you get a lot of support or were people kind of surprised that you did this? Do you remember any of the reactions you got from friends and family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it filled the need. Yeah. So what else can I tell you about?

[Assistant] Let's back up, because I think we kind of skipped over when back when you volunteered to go into the Peace Corps. We didn't talk about your family and friends' reaction. Did you get a lot of support or were people kind of surprised that you did this? Do you remember any of the reactions you got from friends and family?

[User] I think it was general support.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think my mother was. They knew we weren't fitting in there. It was really turbulent times and I. We were the only people we knew that joined the Peace Corps. It's not like we had a whole bunch of friends and they all, we all went different places. I remember the local newspaper wrote up, the Brookline Gazette or Chronicle or something. They put a picture of me in my wedding dress, it was like a jersey thing. And they said, local girl joins the Peace Corps. So but I was from Brookline and Kennedy was from Brookline. And, you know, so this was just ten years after that. Um, I don't know. We were so happy to be joining the Peace Corps. And John. I joined it for the sense of service. John joined, well, it was a deferment at the time, but he wanted to see the world. And so he was really excited and we were really excited and, um, I don't remember any hostility.

[Assistant] Two years is a long time to be away from home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my mother was. They knew we weren't fitting in there. It was really turbulent times and I. We were the only people we knew that joined the Peace Corps. It's not like we had a whole bunch of friends and they all, we all went different places. I remember the local newspaper wrote up, the Brookline Gazette or Chronicle or something. They put a picture of me in my wedding dress, it was like a jersey thing. And they said, local girl joins the Peace Corps. So but I was from Brookline and Kennedy was from Brookline. And, you know, so this was just ten years after that. Um, I don't know. We were so happy to be joining the Peace Corps. And John. I joined it for the sense of service. John joined, well, it was a deferment at the time, but he wanted to see the world. And so he was really excited and we were really excited and, um, I don't remember any hostility.

[Assistant] Two years is a long time to be away from home.

[User] Actually, the. We were ready to leave this country at that time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It really. I can't say we were the hippies of the sixties because we went to college. We stayed in college, but we pretty left leaning. We really. I think for the people who, I think you're about a few years younger and you didn't experience this, but we really were disillusioned when Walter Cronkite would come on the evening news every night and our president was lying to us. It was a sense of deflation of our version of the American dream. So the hard part was not leaving. The hard part was coming back and adjusting, which we didn't do very well when we came back.

[Assistant] Yeah, adjusting can be difficult and we should talk about that. But before we do, just kind of walk me through your typical day on Gau, working there, teaching, living in your little house. So what was your typical day like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, the. We were ready to leave this country at that time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It really. I can't say we were the hippies of the sixties because we went to college. We stayed in college, but we pretty left leaning. We really. I think for the people who, I think you're about a few years younger and you didn't experience this, but we really were disillusioned when Walter Cronkite would come on the evening news every night and our president was lying to us. It was a sense of deflation of our version of the American dream. So the hard part was not leaving. The hard part was coming back and adjusting, which we didn't do very well when we came back.

[Assistant] Yeah, adjusting can be difficult and we should talk about that. But before we do, just kind of walk me through your typical day on Gau, working there, teaching, living in your little house. So what was your typical day like?

[User] We'd get up. Go to our little [inaudible], an eating house. And we had a little, just a little stove, like a two burner propane stove.

[Assistant] Yeah. Gas stove?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It really. I can't say we were the hippies of the sixties because we went to college. We stayed in college, but we pretty left leaning. We really. I think for the people who, I think you're about a few years younger and you didn't experience this, but we really were disillusioned when Walter Cronkite would come on the evening news every night and our president was lying to us. It was a sense of deflation of our version of the American dream. So the hard part was not leaving. The hard part was coming back and adjusting, which we didn't do very well when we came back.

[Assistant] Yeah, adjusting can be difficult and we should talk about that. But before we do, just kind of walk me through your typical day on Gau, working there, teaching, living in your little house. So what was your typical day like?

[User] We'd get up. Go to our little [inaudible], an eating house. And we had a little, just a little stove, like a two burner propane stove.

[Assistant] Yeah. Gas stove?

[User] Yeah, gas stove. We'd make tea or coffee, instant coffee, and would have some, I don't know, something. And then we would go and we'd teach and we would have lunch at one of the teacher's house and his wife would prepare lunch and then we'd go back and finish. And I remember school secretary, school meetings and I was a secretary, so I would write the notes first in English and then in Fijian. And then we would play with the kids after school, and they would bring us food because we didn't have any way of getting food and there was no place to buy food. And hang around. And sometimes John would go out. They included us in the mataqali, an extended family, because that's how they functioned. They didn't know what to do with these separate people, so they included us in. And so sometimes the children would come and stay with us and clean the house.

[Assistant] They treated you like family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We'd get up. Go to our little [inaudible], an eating house. And we had a little, just a little stove, like a two burner propane stove.

[Assistant] Yeah. Gas stove?

[User] Yeah, gas stove. We'd make tea or coffee, instant coffee, and would have some, I don't know, something. And then we would go and we'd teach and we would have lunch at one of the teacher's house and his wife would prepare lunch and then we'd go back and finish. And I remember school secretary, school meetings and I was a secretary, so I would write the notes first in English and then in Fijian. And then we would play with the kids after school, and they would bring us food because we didn't have any way of getting food and there was no place to buy food. And hang around. And sometimes John would go out. They included us in the mataqali, an extended family, because that's how they functioned. They didn't know what to do with these separate people, so they included us in. And so sometimes the children would come and stay with us and clean the house.

[Assistant] They treated you like family?

[User] Yeah. From the beginning. They thought we would be very lonely living alone. We were just married, so we thought it was great. We had a little hut to ourselves. But they didn't think that. So they would send children to be with us. I liked teaching, but I didn't really need them night and day, so we tried to get rid of them. And then we'd go into the village. I had a little problem with going into the village, so that took a while to sort out. They had a coconut log across the river on each side. Actually, Qarani was closer. There was no logs. But I kept going to Qarani and not Navukailagi, which was. And they said, how come you're not coming to the village? I said, I can't cross that. I can't walk.

[Assistant] Oh, so you didn't live in the village, you lived on the school compound?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. From the beginning. They thought we would be very lonely living alone. We were just married, so we thought it was great. We had a little hut to ourselves. But they didn't think that. So they would send children to be with us. I liked teaching, but I didn't really need them night and day, so we tried to get rid of them. And then we'd go into the village. I had a little problem with going into the village, so that took a while to sort out. They had a coconut log across the river on each side. Actually, Qarani was closer. There was no logs. But I kept going to Qarani and not Navukailagi, which was. And they said, how come you're not coming to the village? I said, I can't cross that. I can't walk.

[Assistant] Oh, so you didn't live in the village, you lived on the school compound?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And so they. And they would run across the coconut bridge, all of them. And so finally they put, very shortly after, they put some poles in. And then I still wasn't coming. And I said, there's no handle. So then they put the handle on and they called it the Betty Bridge.

[Assistant] Is it still there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they. And they would run across the coconut bridge, all of them. And so finally they put, very shortly after, they put some poles in. And then I still wasn't coming. And I said, there's no handle. So then they put the handle on and they called it the Betty Bridge.

[Assistant] Is it still there?

[User] Yeah. They did say, they reminded me. They said, don't go into the woods over there at night. I said, well, I don't plan to, but why not? And they said, well, you know, we just stopped being cannibals about 40 years ago and not everyone bought into this. I said, yeah, right. And they said, but he doesn't live in the village. I said, OK, I won't go there.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] But I didn't walk around by myself. I had this husband.

[Assistant] Sure. So you had some really strong ties with the community there and the people in the village. You've been back several times since, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They did say, they reminded me. They said, don't go into the woods over there at night. I said, well, I don't plan to, but why not? And they said, well, you know, we just stopped being cannibals about 40 years ago and not everyone bought into this. I said, yeah, right. And they said, but he doesn't live in the village. I said, OK, I won't go there.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] But I didn't walk around by myself. I had this husband.

[Assistant] Sure. So you had some really strong ties with the community there and the people in the village. You've been back several times since, right?

[User] Yeah, about six or seven times. Yeah. They, last time, or one of the times I was there, I said to Tevita, who came to that thing at the museum. I said, well, you know. I introduced him as my friend and he said, no, Betty, after 40 years, we're more than friends, we're family. And so. I do, they are. I didn't realize that as a Peace Corps volunteer, but all the times I've gone back since they are the happiest, the kindest, the nicest, and the poorest people. All rolled into one. And living on this village that has water coming into it and has not advanced, I wish they had all the amenities. I was hearing at our board meeting about they wanted more running toilets. They had no flush toilets out there.

[Assistant] Right, flush toilets and solar power.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I didn't walk around by myself. I had this husband.

[Assistant] Sure. So you had some really strong ties with the community there and the people in the village. You've been back several times since, right?

[User] Yeah, about six or seven times. Yeah. They, last time, or one of the times I was there, I said to Tevita, who came to that thing at the museum. I said, well, you know. I introduced him as my friend and he said, no, Betty, after 40 years, we're more than friends, we're family. And so. I do, they are. I didn't realize that as a Peace Corps volunteer, but all the times I've gone back since they are the happiest, the kindest, the nicest, and the poorest people. All rolled into one. And living on this village that has water coming into it and has not advanced, I wish they had all the amenities. I was hearing at our board meeting about they wanted more running toilets. They had no flush toilets out there.

[Assistant] Right, flush toilets and solar power.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I don't want them to be backwards. I want them to have all the amenities. So that all the young people will come back and live there. It's a beautiful place, that island. They grow all the best food.

[Assistant] I'm sure. So anything you want to say about family or talk about your relationships?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, about six or seven times. Yeah. They, last time, or one of the times I was there, I said to Tevita, who came to that thing at the museum. I said, well, you know. I introduced him as my friend and he said, no, Betty, after 40 years, we're more than friends, we're family. And so. I do, they are. I didn't realize that as a Peace Corps volunteer, but all the times I've gone back since they are the happiest, the kindest, the nicest, and the poorest people. All rolled into one. And living on this village that has water coming into it and has not advanced, I wish they had all the amenities. I was hearing at our board meeting about they wanted more running toilets. They had no flush toilets out there.

[Assistant] Right, flush toilets and solar power.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I don't want them to be backwards. I want them to have all the amenities. So that all the young people will come back and live there. It's a beautiful place, that island. They grow all the best food.

[Assistant] I'm sure. So anything you want to say about family or talk about your relationships?

[User] Well, I'm thinking of the time we were there, but it's really my memories are all the times that since.

[Assistant] Well, that's fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I don't want them to be backwards. I want them to have all the amenities. So that all the young people will come back and live there. It's a beautiful place, that island. They grow all the best food.

[Assistant] I'm sure. So anything you want to say about family or talk about your relationships?

[User] Well, I'm thinking of the time we were there, but it's really my memories are all the times that since.

[Assistant] Well, that's fine.

[User]
I think one of the things I'd like to mention that's sort of that third goal of, I don't know where it fits. But when we were, the second year I think. Or was it the first year? I can't remember. But this boy in our family, Alapate, who was not a biological child. He was adopted. He was the son of Manasa's sister, but he didn't have any sons. So he just kerekered the son. She didn't have a husband apparently so. Anyway, he turned out to be the brightest thing around, brighter than his children. And he was one of the only ones that passed the eighth grade leaving exam. The way this worked, at least back then, is if you didn't pass the eighth grade leaving exam, that was the end of education, at least on the island.

Alapate passed the exam with flying colors, but there was no one to pay his school fees. And I think we must have done this his second year, must have been the second year. And so they were all saying, well, I guess he won't go on, this is it. And so I remember John and I just looked at each other again, like this decision about getting married. And we just looked at each other across the room and say, well, we'll pay your school fees. We weren't quite sure what we were going to do at age 24, but we figured we hadn't even spent all our Peace Corps stipend because there was no place to buy anything on the island.

[Assistant] Nowhere to spend your money.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were supposed to be there for three weeks, but a boat didn't. And I had a teaching job in Montgomery County. I was an ESOL teacher at Sligo in Eastern Junior High, and there was no way to communicate. I thought I would lose my job.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they held it for me. They didn't know where I was, but they held it for me. So that's where I got pregnant.

[Assistant] Great story.

[User] So we had to bring the boy back. So we did when he was a teenager.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. I bet it was a big experience for him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they held it for me. They didn't know where I was, but they held it for me. So that's where I got pregnant.

[Assistant] Great story.

[User] So we had to bring the boy back. So we did when he was a teenager.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. I bet it was a big experience for him.

[User] It was. And, you know, we've brought his son back. So I think that this relationship that we have with this mataqali will continue, because now my sons, they're all on Facebook.

[Assistant] And they're connected with people that they've met back in Fiji, your Fijian family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had to bring the boy back. So we did when he was a teenager.

[Assistant] Oh, that's great. I bet it was a big experience for him.

[User] It was. And, you know, we've brought his son back. So I think that this relationship that we have with this mataqali will continue, because now my sons, they're all on Facebook.

[Assistant] And they're connected with people that they've met back in Fiji, your Fijian family.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's great.

[User] I'm gonna set up this pen friends with some of my Fijian sisters' daughters, because they're all on Facebook and Facebook Messenger. And so I think that. And Tyler went back, you know, the one who's an actor now?

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And he learned to play rugby there and he bonded with Tevita's sons. And so. And they did something very special. This, uh, my Fijian mother Alena died and they, I understand there was what they consider sacred space, but they took me to her gravesite. And then her daughter, who was in the village, she died in October. So, but I got to see her. And when she held my hand in 2017, she said goodbye. And we both knew it was the last time we would see each other. So I would like to continue my relationship. I'm not sure how I'll be able to do that. What's going to make sense? I'm 71 and a half now and I have.

[Assistant] You have plenty of plenty of years left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm gonna set up this pen friends with some of my Fijian sisters' daughters, because they're all on Facebook and Facebook Messenger. And so I think that. And Tyler went back, you know, the one who's an actor now?

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And he learned to play rugby there and he bonded with Tevita's sons. And so. And they did something very special. This, uh, my Fijian mother Alena died and they, I understand there was what they consider sacred space, but they took me to her gravesite. And then her daughter, who was in the village, she died in October. So, but I got to see her. And when she held my hand in 2017, she said goodbye. And we both knew it was the last time we would see each other. So I would like to continue my relationship. I'm not sure how I'll be able to do that. What's going to make sense? I'm 71 and a half now and I have.

[Assistant] You have plenty of plenty of years left.

[User] Yeah, but I have some. I don't have cancer or anything, but I have some. I need to have monthly infusions to keep me around places once a month. So I don't know, but Fiji has a place in my heart.

[Assistant] Well, that's obvious after all this time. I mean, I don't even have to ask you if you think Peace Corps had an effect on the rest of your life, because that's pretty evident and that's continuing a relationship you've had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but it also gave me my career. It gave me two years of teaching, which got me my next teaching job, which got me my next teaching job, and then got me into graduate school. They didn't have these Peace Corps scholarships that they have now. But by the time I went to graduate school, I knew what worked. I just didn't know why. But they hired me to teach in their, to teach their what they call English Language Institute. So I was teaching Saudis.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] But I had already been teaching and I was married and I was safe. So it not only gave me the relationships, but it gave me a career. And I've been teaching, working in the field of English as a second language, and it's given me an appreciation of the importance of speaking the language of your students. And that was what got me a job in Montgomery County. They required you to have lived, worked overseas and to have learned another language and all of that I got through the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] So. Yeah. You know, my. I said this in the video I did for, uh.

[Assistant] The 50th anniversary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So. Yeah. You know, my. I said this in the video I did for, uh.

[Assistant] The 50th anniversary?

[User] The 50th anniversary. So if I just broke even in terms of what I did there, I didn't do any harm. I don't think we did any harm. It's made me a better American. It took me out of my comfortable middle class life, and I think I was very lucky to get to go to Fiji and to experience the most beautiful place I've ever been in, with the nicest people, but also extreme poverty in a sense, a rural sense. And it gave me a sense of other. And yet I feel that the Fijians have what so many other indigenous people don't have, and that is their land.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And they have an intense pride. And I really wish for them that they can continue that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to say in summary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The 50th anniversary. So if I just broke even in terms of what I did there, I didn't do any harm. I don't think we did any harm. It's made me a better American. It took me out of my comfortable middle class life, and I think I was very lucky to get to go to Fiji and to experience the most beautiful place I've ever been in, with the nicest people, but also extreme poverty in a sense, a rural sense. And it gave me a sense of other. And yet I feel that the Fijians have what so many other indigenous people don't have, and that is their land.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And they have an intense pride. And I really wish for them that they can continue that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to say in summary?

[User] I think if. You asked me who was I speaking to. If I'm speaking to people who may think of joining the Peace Corps, and I alluded to this in the beginning. The hardest part was not joining, was not leaving America. I mean, we were 22, just married and free. The hardest part was coming back. We didn't fit in. Our friends had moved on and started having babies and doing sort of bourgeois things and wanting houses and stuff like that. So we went back overseas again and we didn't really settle down until about, you know, maybe ten years later.

[Assistant] So it was the beginning of a whole different lifestyle for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they have an intense pride. And I really wish for them that they can continue that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to say in summary?

[User] I think if. You asked me who was I speaking to. If I'm speaking to people who may think of joining the Peace Corps, and I alluded to this in the beginning. The hardest part was not joining, was not leaving America. I mean, we were 22, just married and free. The hardest part was coming back. We didn't fit in. Our friends had moved on and started having babies and doing sort of bourgeois things and wanting houses and stuff like that. So we went back overseas again and we didn't really settle down until about, you know, maybe ten years later.

[Assistant] So it was the beginning of a whole different lifestyle for you.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. I regret maybe we didn't stay a third year or stay in the Pacific. I think I would have been very happy to do that. But this husband of mine wanted to go to Africa, so we went to Africa.

[Assistant] All right. Well, thank you very much, Betty.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think if. You asked me who was I speaking to. If I'm speaking to people who may think of joining the Peace Corps, and I alluded to this in the beginning. The hardest part was not joining, was not leaving America. I mean, we were 22, just married and free. The hardest part was coming back. We didn't fit in. Our friends had moved on and started having babies and doing sort of bourgeois things and wanting houses and stuff like that. So we went back overseas again and we didn't really settle down until about, you know, maybe ten years later.

[Assistant] So it was the beginning of a whole different lifestyle for you.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. I regret maybe we didn't stay a third year or stay in the Pacific. I think I would have been very happy to do that. But this husband of mine wanted to go to Africa, so we went to Africa.

[Assistant] All right. Well, thank you very much, Betty.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And this concludes our interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Yeah.

[Assistant] That didn't work out?

[User] No, it was medical stuff. You know, there are some things on my record were. Of course, now the way that it works, as opposed to, I guess, like how it used to work in the past, is you didn't use to have to get medically cleared for. You'd have to get medically cleared first and then apply. It was the reverse, so you would get accepted and then you would have to get medically cleared. And so, you know, I had originally really, I was really interested in post-Soviet states. I'd really wanted to go to Kosovo or Armenia. Those sounded fascinating to me, but as soon as they saw Spanish, there was like pigeonholed me for Latin America.

[Assistant] Because you spoke Spanish?

[User] Because I had spent some time, you know, just like both like within New Orleans and just on the border, like working with refugees who would come over from, you know, Central America. And then also too, there were a lot of like when people cross over from East Africa, usually what they'll do is they'll fly in from like Nairobi into Brazil and then go overland up, like through Colombia, through Panama, through Costa Rica. And they just make that trail up and eventually wind up at the border with the United States, like 20 minutes away from where I live. And so by the time they get there, too, they are all pretty much fluent in Spanish. So I was learning Spanish from people from Eritrea, Somalia, Ethiopia. Zany stuff.

[Assistant] Wow, so you had been working with refugees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's everywhere, man. You think it's just teenagers in the United States, but it's just you. It's there too.

[Assistant] So describe the school to me. What kind of facility was that?

[User] It had originally been really nice. It had originally been designed with plumbing. And this is something that, like a lot of people had kind of noticed and I'm, you know, still kind of mystified like why this would be. It had restrooms that were like hooked up to plumbing, but they were all locked and there was no water coming out of the toilets at all. We could never really figure out why that was, you know? You know, a lot of it, like the toilets were either just like completely broken, like someone had kind of come in and broken them. We really weren't too sure like why that vandalism would be. But, you know, for the most part, the classrooms were just kind of. They usually had, um, they were made of brick, they're made of cinder block that had been painted over. Usually two walls of those were some of the brick had kind of like holes, decorative holes that were kind of cut inside to permit some kind of airflow.

[Assistant] Ventilation.

[User] Yeah, ventilation. Most rooms had a fan just because, you know it would be necessary to kind of keep away the heat. But of course, you know, the power would be out. And it really wouldn't help out too much. So sometimes you'd try to have class outside, really wouldn't work out too well. The English classroom that I taught in, you know, was really nice because it was one of the few rooms other than the administrators' rooms that had AC. But about midway through, probably six months in, like the AC broke. And so, you know, we'd have to open up all the windows.

[Assistant] Any way to fix it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Completely different. Yeah. And it was, you know, my friend Matt in Dibulla also had a similar experience as well. His host family, they were just mounay in that family were just so lovely. You know, Matt was just like their new son, their new gringo son. And then he goes, and he's like living in Dibulla and it's just like stone faced, you know, maybe exchange like one word, you know, with the family the entire week. And it's just it was different and that was tough. That was really, it was really tough. You know, maybe like trying to explain it to other people in Atlantico, they didn't really understand it. Karen had, you know, she had a really wonderful host family in Guachaca, just a lovely, lovely, lovely host family, you know, and it wasn't really. Like it was so hard to describe to other people because it's just that culture in Guajira is so different from the rest of the coast because it was, you know, historically pretty isolated from the rest of the coast. It was just, you know, not developed, you know, there weren't roads going into the capital city until, like probably like 20, like maybe 40 years before. It's a very rural, very isolated.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were you the first Peace Corps volunteer to serve there?

[User] Mm hmm. I was the first volunteer in that site.

[Assistant] They probably didn't get visits from many other outsiders.

[User] No, they did not. They did not at all.

[Assistant] So this was very new to them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. I was the first volunteer in that site.

[Assistant] They probably didn't get visits from many other outsiders.

[User] No, they did not. They did not at all.

[Assistant] So this was very new to them.

[User] It was very new to them.

[Assistant] Didn't know what to do with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they did not. They did not at all.

[Assistant] So this was very new to them.

[User] It was very new to them.

[Assistant] Didn't know what to do with you.

[User] They had zero idea of what to do at all.

[Assistant] Did at any point did it get easier? Must have been some kind of acceptance at some point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It's an interesting question. You know, without Adolinda, it was so hard just because. She never had any break time, and she, you know, so we couldn't just find a free period to talk and go over things. She also lived in Riohacha so far away. You know, it was not a place where I could just kind of like leave and come back. You know, we were making like maybe 23 mil a day, which is 23,000 Colombian pesos. How much would that be in U.S. dollars? Probably not a lot, like maybe eight bucks a day? To get into the city was seven mil. Seven mil ride back. So it's just, it was kind of prohibitive to do like more than once a week, and I wanted to make it, you know, make it count. And so we established a really great relationship.

And thankfully, a lot of the work that Mixi was doing in the city, you know, doing classes at the university, I know that Adolinda had the opportunity to do that. And then when I moved sites after the security incident, you know, I know that, you know, I was able to kind of continue some of the work that Mixi had done in the school, in the megacolegio she was working at, just kind of like get them prepped for the other English volunteer who was going to be there. You know, kind of be able to sit with them, work with them on their English skills, answer their questions about, you know, grammar or like a particular English idiom. But you know, they were motivated. Adolinda was always very motivated and very loving and those teachers at the megacolegio in Riohacha were also very motivated as well.

[Assistant] So you said you moved sites. So you didn't stay at that one school for your entire?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] This new site was a different town?

[User] Yeah, it was. It was the big city. I got moved. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how long did you spend in the smaller? Was that an entire year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] This new site was a different town?

[User] Yeah, it was. It was the big city. I got moved. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how long did you spend in the smaller? Was that an entire year?

[User] It was over a year. It was probably a year and eight months because I didn't move. I wasn't in Riohacha until, like maybe November of 2018.

[Assistant] So it was only just your last few months.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was. It was the big city. I got moved. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how long did you spend in the smaller? Was that an entire year?

[User] It was over a year. It was probably a year and eight months because I didn't move. I wasn't in Riohacha until, like maybe November of 2018.

[Assistant] So it was only just your last few months.

[User] Just my last few months.

[Assistant] And you said there was a security incident.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was, yeah, that was really the toughest part.

[Assistant] But you were close to the end of your service. Maybe it was a good transition for you.

[User] It was a good transition. I think it happened at a good time, especially because things were picking up with Camp Hero. You know, Club Hero, at that particular point in time, it was just like, things had kind of fallen apart with our club, Camp Hero. Like I still had these boys, but there wasn't this rule established where they could attend camp again.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So it was, you know, and then I was like, kind of away. And so there was really no way that they were going to be able to come. And, you know, so it kind of happened at a good time, but it was still really difficult because I didn't get to finish out the school year with those boys. So I did get to see them before I left, though, and that was really tough.

[Assistant] So you returned to say goodbye.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the English guy, and I was just like, I'm a part of this community. Kind of outside of it, but I have this purpose, right? And it's not just like this purpose that I. It's just kind of like, you know, thrust upon me in this really individual way. But it's this thing that kind of permeates throughout this community. And it's just, it's so hard to capture that in the United States, maybe in a really small community. But I mean, just to feel that, to see that at least like once in your life, it's like really incredible just to know that there's something that kind of like exists other than just, you know, the nine to five grind. It kind of ruins you a little bit, I guess.

[Assistant] Do you see any plans in the future for traveling overseas?

[User] I mean, with the Navy.

[Assistant] So you are going into the Navy.

[User] I'm going into the Navy, and I mean, that certainly was kind of one of those things where, you know, seeing their medical mission. They did a medical mission in Riohacha that I was fortunate enough to take part of. You know, I mean, I'm no nurse or anything like that. So the likelihood of me being on a mission like that was probably pretty slim. But you know, the opportunity to potentially like, you know, to respond in a humanitarian way, if that opportunity ever came up in the Navy, you know, to travel around, maybe in the southern hemisphere and Latin America, that would be incredible. So I mean, I do have those plans.

[Assistant] Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share as we wrap up here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, with the Navy.

[Assistant] So you are going into the Navy.

[User] I'm going into the Navy, and I mean, that certainly was kind of one of those things where, you know, seeing their medical mission. They did a medical mission in Riohacha that I was fortunate enough to take part of. You know, I mean, I'm no nurse or anything like that. So the likelihood of me being on a mission like that was probably pretty slim. But you know, the opportunity to potentially like, you know, to respond in a humanitarian way, if that opportunity ever came up in the Navy, you know, to travel around, maybe in the southern hemisphere and Latin America, that would be incredible. So I mean, I do have those plans.

[Assistant] Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share as we wrap up here?

[User] Man, how long have we gone for?

[Assistant] I'm not sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm going into the Navy, and I mean, that certainly was kind of one of those things where, you know, seeing their medical mission. They did a medical mission in Riohacha that I was fortunate enough to take part of. You know, I mean, I'm no nurse or anything like that. So the likelihood of me being on a mission like that was probably pretty slim. But you know, the opportunity to potentially like, you know, to respond in a humanitarian way, if that opportunity ever came up in the Navy, you know, to travel around, maybe in the southern hemisphere and Latin America, that would be incredible. So I mean, I do have those plans.

[Assistant] Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share as we wrap up here?

[User] Man, how long have we gone for?

[Assistant] I'm not sure.

[User] I would be, I'd be really. I thought this was going to be over in 15 minutes so.

[Assistant] Well, let's see. We're about an hour and 25 minutes, I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Man, how long have we gone for?

[Assistant] I'm not sure.

[User] I would be, I'd be really. I thought this was going to be over in 15 minutes so.

[Assistant] Well, let's see. We're about an hour and 25 minutes, I think.

[User] Golly man, you must've gotten bored with me talking all about that stuff.

[Assistant] No, it was great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time of Challenger we were building at about 17 I believe.

[Assistant] A year?

[User] We had backed off from the 60 to 24. We had done what we called a 60 minus 36. We had facilitized the plant for 60—whether we would have ever been able to get there is another question—but we put in tooling for 24. We left the open workstations so that if we needed to go up to more we had space to install more tools, but the tooling was supposed to support 24. As I say, at the time of Challenger we had ramped up to about I think 18. Again we didn’t have the extreme TPS activities that we went into after Columbia, so we probably would have been able to meet 24.

[Assistant] I’m curious how many of them are left, how many tanks?

[User] Three. There are two of them set for the next two flights, and there’s one that was in stacking position in the Vertical Assembly Building at Michoud during Hurricane Katrina, and some of the roof fell in and some of the concrete fell and hit the tank. They have gone back and repaired it since then and I believe it’s been recertified for flight. But the way the program is set up, when we fly we’ve got to have a rescue vehicle on the pad, and that tank is the tank for the rescue vehicle. Now whether the program is willing to fly it without a rescue vehicle—they initially said, “We’re flying to Station, we can park at Station.” Then they backed off on that. You’ve got to have a rescue vehicle in case there’s a problem before you get to Station. Of course you had to have that when you went to the Hubble [Space Telescope] because you couldn’t really park at Hubble.

[Assistant] No room at that inn, is there? Based on all the improvements and enhancements up until now, how long would it take from beginning to end to put a tank in place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was one of those seven-day-a-week things, all day, and you'd spend half your night on the airplane getting to the next spot. Didn't see my family very much, but fortunately I still have the same wife.

[Assistant] A good woman.

[User] Yep. When you've got a good one, you hang on to her.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] I knew you'd say that. [Laughter] Where are we? I guess that's more than enough of that historical part.

[Assistant] That's great. That's a good overview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See, what it really amounts to is, is politics.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Because you've got to have a broad base to be able to sell these big giant-buck projects. Then, of course, what happens? Apollo 13 blew up shortly after this meeting. They canceled several missions. Well, Apollo 15 became 16 in equipment. It was still called 15. Then they just canceled 18, 19, and 20. So three-fifths of my job never got done. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Very unfortunate.

[User] I'm still waiting. Love to see it happen, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'll keep trying.

[Assistant] Absolutely. No reason to stop trying.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because you've got to have a broad base to be able to sell these big giant-buck projects. Then, of course, what happens? Apollo 13 blew up shortly after this meeting. They canceled several missions. Well, Apollo 15 became 16 in equipment. It was still called 15. Then they just canceled 18, 19, and 20. So three-fifths of my job never got done. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Very unfortunate.

[User] I'm still waiting. Love to see it happen, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'll keep trying.

[Assistant] Absolutely. No reason to stop trying.

[User] Nope.

[Assistant] When you were first working with the astronauts, even before you became principal investigator, with that early group back in '64, how was that relationship with the astronauts? Did they get into the geology very well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm still waiting. Love to see it happen, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'll keep trying.

[Assistant] Absolutely. No reason to stop trying.

[User] Nope.

[Assistant] When you were first working with the astronauts, even before you became principal investigator, with that early group back in '64, how was that relationship with the astronauts? Did they get into the geology very well?

[User] I saw them, the pair that I had, which in one pair was [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] and—not Dick [Richard F.] Gordon [Jr.]. [Charles] Pete Conrad [Jr.]. That was one pair one time. I got acquainted with that pair quite a bit, but the other pairs, of course, were off doing their things. About all I really had in terms of them would be to get their autograph. Everybody gets autographs. I would judge that virtually all of them were seriously interested in trying to learn this stuff. Some of them learned it better than others. When you look back at the training that the crews that went to the Moon had, at least for the last three, 15, 16, 17, where we had the vehicles, I would judge that those people had the equivalent of a master's degree in geology before they went. Rather strange kind of a degree, of course, because you don't have to worry about a lot of the things that a typical geology major or any geology major working here on Earth would have to worry about.\n\n I don't remember any crossways kinds of things in these. It was fun.

[Assistant] When you were first building the training for the Apollo, the ones that were going to be long-duration science missions, how did you plan for those? How did you figure out how to train the astronauts and what to look for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And the other thing Jack did at the end of each place as they're driving off, he summarized everything that he'd seen and learned, so by the time they landed in the Pacific Ocean, we'd written a report about that landing site that was better than the one we used to write for the previous missions, the ninety-day report, ninety days afterwards where the rocks were all opened, you had a chance to see them, you had all the film, you had the chance to talk to the crew, and integrate that to the "Here's what we did on the Moon." We had one that good before they landed, and then it grew from there. My judgment, of course, is send scientists. It happened.

[Assistant] Luckily they were able to work it out so he could go.

[User] Oh, boy, that was a day when there was a big splashdown party going on at one of the apartment complexes right across from JSC, and that evening they were going to be announcing the Apollo 17 crew. Schmitt was there, Gordon was there. Schmitt and Gordon were a pair as backup on Apollo 15, and since I was the backup, or the understudy, I was the geology team leader for them, so I knew Jack from that. So I really then worked with him on two different missions. I'd also known him when he was an undergrad and I was finishing my doctorate at Cal Tech. So almost incest, I guess. [Laughter] Wrong word there. We ought to scratch that one and add another word.

[Assistant] When the announcement was made—

[User] They were all kind of antsy, and finally the announcement was made. Dick Gordon was probably one of the more unhappy people, but he recognized that, yes, they're going to have to send Schmitt. If Apollo 18 had happened, they would have gone as a team. Gene Cernan's partner—

[Assistant] Joe [H.] Engle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, boy, that was a day when there was a big splashdown party going on at one of the apartment complexes right across from JSC, and that evening they were going to be announcing the Apollo 17 crew. Schmitt was there, Gordon was there. Schmitt and Gordon were a pair as backup on Apollo 15, and since I was the backup, or the understudy, I was the geology team leader for them, so I knew Jack from that. So I really then worked with him on two different missions. I'd also known him when he was an undergrad and I was finishing my doctorate at Cal Tech. So almost incest, I guess. [Laughter] Wrong word there. We ought to scratch that one and add another word.

[Assistant] When the announcement was made—

[User] They were all kind of antsy, and finally the announcement was made. Dick Gordon was probably one of the more unhappy people, but he recognized that, yes, they're going to have to send Schmitt. If Apollo 18 had happened, they would have gone as a team. Gene Cernan's partner—

[Assistant] Joe [H.] Engle?

[User] Yes, Joe. Of course, was cut out and Schmitt was placed in there, and Joe wasn't a very happy guy either, because here's their opportunity to do something. But looking back on it, I think they did the only thing that was possible. You've got to send a scientist, especially when you have the National Academy of Sciences, who were the chief honchos of trying to select these scientist astronauts. Then if you didn't use them, what kind of an engineering organization are you? [Laughter] Anyway, so he went.

[Assistant] Looking at both his selection and also the integration of working with Mission Control, building the time lines, and so forth, and just the whole focus on the science side, because initially there wasn't that much, like you said, "Let's get to the Moon first and see," how did that work out for you in integrating those two parts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Joe. Of course, was cut out and Schmitt was placed in there, and Joe wasn't a very happy guy either, because here's their opportunity to do something. But looking back on it, I think they did the only thing that was possible. You've got to send a scientist, especially when you have the National Academy of Sciences, who were the chief honchos of trying to select these scientist astronauts. Then if you didn't use them, what kind of an engineering organization are you? [Laughter] Anyway, so he went.

[Assistant] Looking at both his selection and also the integration of working with Mission Control, building the time lines, and so forth, and just the whole focus on the science side, because initially there wasn't that much, like you said, "Let's get to the Moon first and see," how did that work out for you in integrating those two parts?

[User] The integrating parts, I can credit Jack [John R.] Sevier as an absolute genius at being able to work with us and with the rest of the directorate and integrating all of these different egotists, each scientist with his own experiment, my God, one of the greater egotists of all, a bunch of prima donnas, and trying to make them all work together and satisfying the time demands and the time needs that they have, squeezing it down until, yes, we can get it done in this hunk of time, Jack was the most instrumental person in that. Unfortunately, he died here a few months ago. I hope you talked with him before he went. He would have been able to tell you a lot of stories. We spent a lot of evenings in his house, his wife isolated in the bedroom while we harangued these science/engineering questions around.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, we weren't able to talk with him before. That's a big loss for us.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And for everyone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The integrating parts, I can credit Jack [John R.] Sevier as an absolute genius at being able to work with us and with the rest of the directorate and integrating all of these different egotists, each scientist with his own experiment, my God, one of the greater egotists of all, a bunch of prima donnas, and trying to make them all work together and satisfying the time demands and the time needs that they have, squeezing it down until, yes, we can get it done in this hunk of time, Jack was the most instrumental person in that. Unfortunately, he died here a few months ago. I hope you talked with him before he went. He would have been able to tell you a lot of stories. We spent a lot of evenings in his house, his wife isolated in the bedroom while we harangued these science/engineering questions around.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, we weren't able to talk with him before. That's a big loss for us.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And for everyone.

[User] There's nobody like him. But he was instrumental, and you've got to have somebody like him in the system to act as an interagency actor, whatever you want to call him, coordinator.

[Assistant] It's fortunate that he was able to be there and help make it all happen.