[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were already working on the early Shuttle flight rules and mission rules and procedures as we did on Apollo. My people were in the Shuttle systems early and were making trips back and forth to California, while still working on the latter part of Apollo and ASTP. But the Shuttle, it was a lot of development time on that program, because it was a much more complicated vehicle.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you about that. Considering the LM, which obviously was a complicated vehicle, but then going—

[User] Nothing like the Shuttle.

[Assistant] —going to the Shuttle, which was so complicated, and having to develop all those procedures and rules.

[User] Yes, very complicated. In fact, the program was too expensive, too complicated. The checkout took too long at the Cape. We didn’t fly that many Shuttle flights, I don’t remember how many.\n\n One of the questions you were asking, was about what led to my retirement, decision to leave NASA. It was just retirement time for me. I had the right number of years with the government, and I retired and went to work for Lockheed, then Eagle Engineering there in the

[Assistant]
Space Center area. But it was a retirement time for me, and frankly, there wasn’t anything coming. We had no new program coming at that time.\n\n Congress had not allowed us to fly any more Apollo missions, and Skylab was a long mission, and after that, they had another Skylab vehicle, but that was not flown. And after STS-1, I concluded that it was time to move on.

But you still worked in the area for different contractors for NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing like the Shuttle.

[Assistant] —going to the Shuttle, which was so complicated, and having to develop all those procedures and rules.

[User] Yes, very complicated. In fact, the program was too expensive, too complicated. The checkout took too long at the Cape. We didn’t fly that many Shuttle flights, I don’t remember how many.\n\n One of the questions you were asking, was about what led to my retirement, decision to leave NASA. It was just retirement time for me. I had the right number of years with the government, and I retired and went to work for Lockheed, then Eagle Engineering there in the

[Assistant]
Space Center area. But it was a retirement time for me, and frankly, there wasn’t anything coming. We had no new program coming at that time.\n\n Congress had not allowed us to fly any more Apollo missions, and Skylab was a long mission, and after that, they had another Skylab vehicle, but that was not flown. And after STS-1, I concluded that it was time to move on.

But you still worked in the area for different contractors for NASA?

[User] Yes, after retirement I worked for Lockheed to do the STSOC (Space Transportation System Operations Contract) proposal, but other than that, I did not go with another major contractor. I joined a small engineering firm, Eagle Engineering for several years.\n\n I did the Lockheed proposal in support of Flight Operations, which was awarded to McDonnell Douglas.

[Assistant] Can you share memories of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, very complicated. In fact, the program was too expensive, too complicated. The checkout took too long at the Cape. We didn’t fly that many Shuttle flights, I don’t remember how many.\n\n One of the questions you were asking, was about what led to my retirement, decision to leave NASA. It was just retirement time for me. I had the right number of years with the government, and I retired and went to work for Lockheed, then Eagle Engineering there in the

[Assistant]
Space Center area. But it was a retirement time for me, and frankly, there wasn’t anything coming. We had no new program coming at that time.\n\n Congress had not allowed us to fly any more Apollo missions, and Skylab was a long mission, and after that, they had another Skylab vehicle, but that was not flown. And after STS-1, I concluded that it was time to move on.

But you still worked in the area for different contractors for NASA?

[User] Yes, after retirement I worked for Lockheed to do the STSOC (Space Transportation System Operations Contract) proposal, but other than that, I did not go with another major contractor. I joined a small engineering firm, Eagle Engineering for several years.\n\n I did the Lockheed proposal in support of Flight Operations, which was awarded to McDonnell Douglas.

[Assistant] Can you share memories of that?

[User] Proposal work was hard work, and I did some of the hardest work I’d ever done because I’d never done a proposal before. I worked with Jim Bilodeau, who had been Division Chief of the JSC Training Division in Flight Operations. He worked with me on the Operations part of that proposal. And I can’t recall how long it was, but it seemed like it was years! McDonnell Douglas won the contract, and I left the company.

[Assistant] Well, during that time you were working for Scott Science and Technology.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, after retirement I worked for Lockheed to do the STSOC (Space Transportation System Operations Contract) proposal, but other than that, I did not go with another major contractor. I joined a small engineering firm, Eagle Engineering for several years.\n\n I did the Lockheed proposal in support of Flight Operations, which was awarded to McDonnell Douglas.

[Assistant] Can you share memories of that?

[User] Proposal work was hard work, and I did some of the hardest work I’d ever done because I’d never done a proposal before. I worked with Jim Bilodeau, who had been Division Chief of the JSC Training Division in Flight Operations. He worked with me on the Operations part of that proposal. And I can’t recall how long it was, but it seemed like it was years! McDonnell Douglas won the contract, and I left the company.

[Assistant] Well, during that time you were working for Scott Science and Technology.

[User] I worked for Dave [David R.] Scott after Lockheed, and it was working Air Force programs, the classified programs that the Air Force was going to use the Space Shuttle for. They were paying us at Scott Science and Technology to use our background in manned space flight, because at that time the Air Force was going to fly several of their missions on the Shuttle. As it turned out, they had only one Air Force mission, a classified one.

[Assistant] In 1986, when I believe you were working for Eagle Engineering at that time, is when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Proposal work was hard work, and I did some of the hardest work I’d ever done because I’d never done a proposal before. I worked with Jim Bilodeau, who had been Division Chief of the JSC Training Division in Flight Operations. He worked with me on the Operations part of that proposal. And I can’t recall how long it was, but it seemed like it was years! McDonnell Douglas won the contract, and I left the company.

[Assistant] Well, during that time you were working for Scott Science and Technology.

[User] I worked for Dave [David R.] Scott after Lockheed, and it was working Air Force programs, the classified programs that the Air Force was going to use the Space Shuttle for. They were paying us at Scott Science and Technology to use our background in manned space flight, because at that time the Air Force was going to fly several of their missions on the Shuttle. As it turned out, they had only one Air Force mission, a classified one.

[Assistant] In 1986, when I believe you were working for Eagle Engineering at that time, is when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident happened.

[User] I remember that day! I was in the Ford Aerospace Building, which is not onsite. Several of us from Eagle were working with Ford Aerospace on some work at Eagle.\n\n We weren’t monitoring the mission, but we had the capability, so they turned on their voice loops and we heard what had happened. So I was not able to monitor much real time activity when that accident occurred.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned during Apollo and before you worked closely with the crews.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked for Dave [David R.] Scott after Lockheed, and it was working Air Force programs, the classified programs that the Air Force was going to use the Space Shuttle for. They were paying us at Scott Science and Technology to use our background in manned space flight, because at that time the Air Force was going to fly several of their missions on the Shuttle. As it turned out, they had only one Air Force mission, a classified one.

[Assistant] In 1986, when I believe you were working for Eagle Engineering at that time, is when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident happened.

[User] I remember that day! I was in the Ford Aerospace Building, which is not onsite. Several of us from Eagle were working with Ford Aerospace on some work at Eagle.\n\n We weren’t monitoring the mission, but we had the capability, so they turned on their voice loops and we heard what had happened. So I was not able to monitor much real time activity when that accident occurred.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned during Apollo and before you worked closely with the crews.

[User] Yes, during simulations.

[Assistant] During simulations and that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember that day! I was in the Ford Aerospace Building, which is not onsite. Several of us from Eagle were working with Ford Aerospace on some work at Eagle.\n\n We weren’t monitoring the mission, but we had the capability, so they turned on their voice loops and we heard what had happened. So I was not able to monitor much real time activity when that accident occurred.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned during Apollo and before you worked closely with the crews.

[User] Yes, during simulations.

[Assistant] During simulations and that sort of thing?

[User] And the mission rule meetings and, particularly the crew procedures meetings. We would prepare most of the procedures. Some of the procedures were pretty obvious what you did, but there were a lot of them that were kind of subtle, and so that’s how we got to know them very well by working so closely with the flight crew.

[Assistant] In 1978 when the first Shuttle class came through, did you have any interaction with the Shuttle pilots and Mission Specialists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, during simulations.

[Assistant] During simulations and that sort of thing?

[User] And the mission rule meetings and, particularly the crew procedures meetings. We would prepare most of the procedures. Some of the procedures were pretty obvious what you did, but there were a lot of them that were kind of subtle, and so that’s how we got to know them very well by working so closely with the flight crew.

[Assistant] In 1978 when the first Shuttle class came through, did you have any interaction with the Shuttle pilots and Mission Specialists?

[User] Some minimal interaction with the Shuttle pilots. Not with the Mission Specialists, just always the commander or Shuttle pilot. Mission Specialists were more science-oriented, but we worked with John Young and his copilot, Robert L. Crippen.

[Assistant] At some point you went to Germany and worked in Germany for a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the mission rule meetings and, particularly the crew procedures meetings. We would prepare most of the procedures. Some of the procedures were pretty obvious what you did, but there were a lot of them that were kind of subtle, and so that’s how we got to know them very well by working so closely with the flight crew.

[Assistant] In 1978 when the first Shuttle class came through, did you have any interaction with the Shuttle pilots and Mission Specialists?

[User] Some minimal interaction with the Shuttle pilots. Not with the Mission Specialists, just always the commander or Shuttle pilot. Mission Specialists were more science-oriented, but we worked with John Young and his copilot, Robert L. Crippen.

[Assistant] At some point you went to Germany and worked in Germany for a while.

[User] Yes, for Scott Science and Technology. I was providing them the same type Shuttle experience and information the Air Force wanted. Germany had a Shuttle flight dedicated to their science experiments, STS-9. It was basically an all-scientific mission and it was European, but Germany was the leader of that activity. So that was in 1981, I think, Peggy and I went over. I went over four times to Germany, and the last time, I took Peggy and my daughter Mary and we stayed over there three weeks. During the weekends, we would drive all over in a rented car.\n\n That was a fun program to work with them and give them my experience. I helped them work in preparing the procedures for their experiments, and what to do in case of emergencies, etc.

[Assistant] You also worked on some of the preliminary plans for Space Station Freedom, while at Eagle. Do you have any memories of working on those first plans? The first Space Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some minimal interaction with the Shuttle pilots. Not with the Mission Specialists, just always the commander or Shuttle pilot. Mission Specialists were more science-oriented, but we worked with John Young and his copilot, Robert L. Crippen.

[Assistant] At some point you went to Germany and worked in Germany for a while.

[User] Yes, for Scott Science and Technology. I was providing them the same type Shuttle experience and information the Air Force wanted. Germany had a Shuttle flight dedicated to their science experiments, STS-9. It was basically an all-scientific mission and it was European, but Germany was the leader of that activity. So that was in 1981, I think, Peggy and I went over. I went over four times to Germany, and the last time, I took Peggy and my daughter Mary and we stayed over there three weeks. During the weekends, we would drive all over in a rented car.\n\n That was a fun program to work with them and give them my experience. I helped them work in preparing the procedures for their experiments, and what to do in case of emergencies, etc.

[Assistant] You also worked on some of the preliminary plans for Space Station Freedom, while at Eagle. Do you have any memories of working on those first plans? The first Space Station?

[User] I have very few memories of that activity.\n\n I did some work on a program that was never implemented. It was a proposal for a crew entry vehicle that was planned, and I worked with another guy on developing some early procedures and things like that. It was called a CERV, crew emergency rescue vehicle. But it never went past the talking stage, but we did provide help, two of us at Eagle, on that program.

[Assistant] Well, looking back over your career with NASA, is there any time period of any accomplishment for you personally that you remember that you might have been the most proud of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I still think that Apollo 13 was probably the highlight of my career, because my branch had been forward-thinking enough to concern itself with the problems that happened on that simulation the year before and to do something about it, in spite of what the flight director said. And to end up using them on 13, which was almost—it was uncanny. The Apollo 13 accident occurred at almost the same elapsed time during the mission that the same event occurred on the simulation where they failed three fuel cells going out on translunar coast. I think that mission capped it all off for me for the LM.\n\n I didn’t see that many Shuttle flights before I left NASA. Bob “Crip” Crippen was a great pilot, and they couldn’t have picked two better people for the first flight as far as knowledge of the vehicles and flight capability. They both had excellent backgrounds as pilots.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything in your career that you would consider the most challenging? I know you mentioned Apollo 13 as a challenging time. Was there anything else that was challenging as far as being able to accomplish what you set out to do?

[User] Well, of course, it was challenging when I first got there to learn to be a flight controller and what we had to do. During the Gemini Program when I first started taking on the early Apollo Lunar Module work, that was exciting! Thank of going to the Moon! I think all that work that contributed to the success of Apollo was pretty exciting, pretty challenging. I don’t have any one outstanding moment or anything, except for the Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 incident.\n\n I was concerned about the Shuttle because it was far more complex than the previous spacecraft.

[Assistant] You mentioned the redundancy that you kept in the Shuttle, also.

[User] Yes, we had a lot of redundancy.

[Assistant] As we talked about at the beginning, when you and Mel Brooks were first hired by Gene Kranz, one of the reasons was that you were both a little bit older. The average age working in the MOCR during Apollo was, I think, twenty-six or something really young like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, it was challenging when I first got there to learn to be a flight controller and what we had to do. During the Gemini Program when I first started taking on the early Apollo Lunar Module work, that was exciting! Thank of going to the Moon! I think all that work that contributed to the success of Apollo was pretty exciting, pretty challenging. I don’t have any one outstanding moment or anything, except for the Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 incident.\n\n I was concerned about the Shuttle because it was far more complex than the previous spacecraft.

[Assistant] You mentioned the redundancy that you kept in the Shuttle, also.

[User] Yes, we had a lot of redundancy.

[Assistant] As we talked about at the beginning, when you and Mel Brooks were first hired by Gene Kranz, one of the reasons was that you were both a little bit older. The average age working in the MOCR during Apollo was, I think, twenty-six or something really young like that.

[User] Mel and I were in our early thirties, at the time.

[Assistant] How was that, working with such a young group of people, or do you feel that maybe the energy level was different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had a lot of redundancy.

[Assistant] As we talked about at the beginning, when you and Mel Brooks were first hired by Gene Kranz, one of the reasons was that you were both a little bit older. The average age working in the MOCR during Apollo was, I think, twenty-six or something really young like that.

[User] Mel and I were in our early thirties, at the time.

[Assistant] How was that, working with such a young group of people, or do you feel that maybe the energy level was different?

[User] No. I never considered that aspect at all. I didn’t see any adverse effects either way. I only know that Gene hired us because he was looking for some experience. I had it with Lockheed Georgia and then with the Air Force flight test work at Eglin, and Mel had it with Lockheed Burbank from working the Agena Program. He brought a lot of that experience into the Agena that we used on Gemini.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything that we haven’t talked about, any anecdotes that you’d like to mention or any people that maybe you worked with that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mel and I were in our early thirties, at the time.

[Assistant] How was that, working with such a young group of people, or do you feel that maybe the energy level was different?

[User] No. I never considered that aspect at all. I didn’t see any adverse effects either way. I only know that Gene hired us because he was looking for some experience. I had it with Lockheed Georgia and then with the Air Force flight test work at Eglin, and Mel had it with Lockheed Burbank from working the Agena Program. He brought a lot of that experience into the Agena that we used on Gemini.

[Assistant] Well, is there anything that we haven’t talked about, any anecdotes that you’d like to mention or any people that maybe you worked with that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?

[User] Well, we talked about SPAN, Spacecraft Analysis, which was somewhat a misnomer. I mean spacecraft analysis; everybody did that, all the systems people.

[Assistant] Is there anyone else to mention or anybody we haven’t talked about? I know you mentioned Gene Kranz and Chris Kraft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we talked about SPAN, Spacecraft Analysis, which was somewhat a misnomer. I mean spacecraft analysis; everybody did that, all the systems people.

[Assistant] Is there anyone else to mention or anybody we haven’t talked about? I know you mentioned Gene Kranz and Chris Kraft.

[User] Kraft was our Directorate Head and Gene was my Division Chief and I was a Branch Chief under him. Early on, I was a section head, and everybody got elevated up one level. I made a lot of friends, a lot of good people, spent a lot of time with them in work and simulations and planning meetings and working during the missions.\n\n We kind of had an adversary, we thought, at the time, which was the Program Office, whether it was Apollo or Shuttle. They didn’t want any changes made to any of their spacecraft designs, because it meant spending money. And during these design reviews, we would come up with some changes that we proposed for certain things, more redundancy perhaps in certain areas maybe, and it was kind of an adversarial relationship on occasion, but not too bad. It only showed up a few times.\n\n I’m glad I didn’t work in the Program Office. I don’t think I would have liked that job. But being a flight controller with Flight Operations was great, and Gene Kranz made it that way. We could have had another guy, it would never have been as successful as Gene. He was an incredible flight director. He knew everything that was going on, was smart, and having been an F-100 pilot, he knew radio discipline and how to speak over the loop. He was very crisp on the loop. When he spoke, people moved.

[Assistant] In your position, I’m sure you worked with lots of different flight directors.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And a lot of different personalities. Are there any other ones that come to mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kraft was our Directorate Head and Gene was my Division Chief and I was a Branch Chief under him. Early on, I was a section head, and everybody got elevated up one level. I made a lot of friends, a lot of good people, spent a lot of time with them in work and simulations and planning meetings and working during the missions.\n\n We kind of had an adversary, we thought, at the time, which was the Program Office, whether it was Apollo or Shuttle. They didn’t want any changes made to any of their spacecraft designs, because it meant spending money. And during these design reviews, we would come up with some changes that we proposed for certain things, more redundancy perhaps in certain areas maybe, and it was kind of an adversarial relationship on occasion, but not too bad. It only showed up a few times.\n\n I’m glad I didn’t work in the Program Office. I don’t think I would have liked that job. But being a flight controller with Flight Operations was great, and Gene Kranz made it that way. We could have had another guy, it would never have been as successful as Gene. He was an incredible flight director. He knew everything that was going on, was smart, and having been an F-100 pilot, he knew radio discipline and how to speak over the loop. He was very crisp on the loop. When he spoke, people moved.

[Assistant] In your position, I’m sure you worked with lots of different flight directors.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And a lot of different personalities. Are there any other ones that come to mind?

[User] Well, Glynn [S.] Lunney was, I liked him. He was a flight director as well as Chief, of the Flight Dynamics Branch. And I didn’t know the newer flight directors that came after I left. Don Puddy, my former Assistant Branch Chief, became a flight director, and he was good.

[Assistant] Well, if there’s not anything else that you want to talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And a lot of different personalities. Are there any other ones that come to mind?

[User] Well, Glynn [S.] Lunney was, I liked him. He was a flight director as well as Chief, of the Flight Dynamics Branch. And I didn’t know the newer flight directors that came after I left. Don Puddy, my former Assistant Branch Chief, became a flight director, and he was good.

[Assistant] Well, if there’s not anything else that you want to talk about.

[User] I honestly can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, we’ll get you through before noon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Glynn [S.] Lunney was, I liked him. He was a flight director as well as Chief, of the Flight Dynamics Branch. And I didn’t know the newer flight directors that came after I left. Don Puddy, my former Assistant Branch Chief, became a flight director, and he was good.

[Assistant] Well, if there’s not anything else that you want to talk about.

[User] I honestly can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, we’ll get you through before noon.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, I appreciate you talking with us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm all over the lot.

[Assistant] No, that's fine. We were talking about New York and you wanted to go to work with\n\n Life\n\n , because they had all of the wonderful stories and coverage of the astronauts.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you become involved with that aspect? Did\n\n Life\n\n give you that chance?

[User] Yes. It's just this great desire and then making it happen.\n\n Life\n\n didn't come looking for me; I went looking for them and made many visits there to the art directors and showed my portfolio many times before I finally got an assignment. Then I was established rather quickly as one of their artists and I did a lot of work for them for ten years, more than that, most of it having to do with military, aviation, space in particular. I did two covers, did a lot of interior paintings, big spreads, important articles and so forth.\n\n I did some work for\n\n Saturday Evening Post\n\n , too, when it was a weekly publication, and\n\n Collier's\n\n and lots of magazines. A lot of work for\n\n Popular Science\n\n , which is still published. A lot of covers for them, cover art that had to do with those special skills that I have as an illustrator and rendering and painting.

[Assistant] I know one of the ones you did for\n\n Popular Science\n\n is an illustration of the Crawler.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did you become involved with that aspect? Did\n\n Life\n\n give you that chance?

[User] Yes. It's just this great desire and then making it happen.\n\n Life\n\n didn't come looking for me; I went looking for them and made many visits there to the art directors and showed my portfolio many times before I finally got an assignment. Then I was established rather quickly as one of their artists and I did a lot of work for them for ten years, more than that, most of it having to do with military, aviation, space in particular. I did two covers, did a lot of interior paintings, big spreads, important articles and so forth.\n\n I did some work for\n\n Saturday Evening Post\n\n , too, when it was a weekly publication, and\n\n Collier's\n\n and lots of magazines. A lot of work for\n\n Popular Science\n\n , which is still published. A lot of covers for them, cover art that had to do with those special skills that I have as an illustrator and rendering and painting.

[Assistant] I know one of the ones you did for\n\n Popular Science\n\n is an illustration of the Crawler.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We have a copy of that at the office. How were you asked to do that? Was that based on work that you had already done for NASA, or was that part of the beginning days where you were allowed into those areas that you could see?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's just this great desire and then making it happen.\n\n Life\n\n didn't come looking for me; I went looking for them and made many visits there to the art directors and showed my portfolio many times before I finally got an assignment. Then I was established rather quickly as one of their artists and I did a lot of work for them for ten years, more than that, most of it having to do with military, aviation, space in particular. I did two covers, did a lot of interior paintings, big spreads, important articles and so forth.\n\n I did some work for\n\n Saturday Evening Post\n\n , too, when it was a weekly publication, and\n\n Collier's\n\n and lots of magazines. A lot of work for\n\n Popular Science\n\n , which is still published. A lot of covers for them, cover art that had to do with those special skills that I have as an illustrator and rendering and painting.

[Assistant] I know one of the ones you did for\n\n Popular Science\n\n is an illustration of the Crawler.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We have a copy of that at the office. How were you asked to do that? Was that based on work that you had already done for NASA, or was that part of the beginning days where you were allowed into those areas that you could see?

[User] How did that happen? And was that\n\n Popular Science\n\n or was it\n\n Life\n\n ? The Crawler with the Saturn rocket on it?

[Assistant] Yes, it was an illustration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] It wasn't done recently, but yet when you stand there and look at it, it takes you through the history and into the future.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us your thoughts when you were putting that whole mural together, what you were thinking and what you wanted to tell the viewers?

[User] Oh, yes. By the way, all of my murals, every one of them, have been done with no direction. In other words, they said, "we'd like you to do something," and then I did it. I made designs and miniatures that I then submitted and said, "What do you think? I think this is what we should do," and almost without exception, without any changes at all, I have done what I wanted to do, which is really nice.\n\n But in that case, I wanted to tell the story of our space program, our manned space program, pretty much from the beginning. So that imagery really carries us from the earliest launches, and they're only small indications, but they're in there, the story of our manned space program from the Mercury spacecraft to the Gemini and then Apollo and then finally Shuttle, and then looking into the future with some fantastic space stations orbiting that are really just dreams of a future that might be.\n\n So I made a lot of small sketches first for myself, just arriving at what I wanted to do. Who was I working with? I think Chuck, Chuck Biggs. I wonder, did Chris have any—I think he saw the sketches that I made and okayed them, and not with me present or anything, but I probably presented them to Chuck, who was sort of in charge of my project. Neat guy. I've liked him. I've known him for so many years, long before I ever worked on anything directly for NASA. When I was working for some of my\n\n Life\n\n projects, I've made contact with him.\n\n Lou [Louis A.] Parker. Now, of course, I think he's still—is he still there?

[Assistant] I don't know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us your thoughts when you were putting that whole mural together, what you were thinking and what you wanted to tell the viewers?

[User] Oh, yes. By the way, all of my murals, every one of them, have been done with no direction. In other words, they said, "we'd like you to do something," and then I did it. I made designs and miniatures that I then submitted and said, "What do you think? I think this is what we should do," and almost without exception, without any changes at all, I have done what I wanted to do, which is really nice.\n\n But in that case, I wanted to tell the story of our space program, our manned space program, pretty much from the beginning. So that imagery really carries us from the earliest launches, and they're only small indications, but they're in there, the story of our manned space program from the Mercury spacecraft to the Gemini and then Apollo and then finally Shuttle, and then looking into the future with some fantastic space stations orbiting that are really just dreams of a future that might be.\n\n So I made a lot of small sketches first for myself, just arriving at what I wanted to do. Who was I working with? I think Chuck, Chuck Biggs. I wonder, did Chris have any—I think he saw the sketches that I made and okayed them, and not with me present or anything, but I probably presented them to Chuck, who was sort of in charge of my project. Neat guy. I've liked him. I've known him for so many years, long before I ever worked on anything directly for NASA. When I was working for some of my\n\n Life\n\n projects, I've made contact with him.\n\n Lou [Louis A.] Parker. Now, of course, I think he's still—is he still there?

[Assistant] I don't know.

[User] Do you know the name?

[Assistant] Yes, I know the name, but I don't know if he's still there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you know the name?

[Assistant] Yes, I know the name, but I don't know if he's still there.

[User] Time does go, doesn't it? Flies. I talked to Lou as recently as maybe a couple years ago. He was still there. He may still be.\n\n Anyway, it has been an involvement that has certainly affected my whole career in a very positive way, wonderful way. It has influenced profoundly what I have done and what I am continuing to do. It's proved something to me, that is that humanity, humankind, is capable of almost anything, given the imperative and the need to make it happen. We do awesome things.

[Assistant] Well, that's kind of how we felt when we saw your work at the Smithsonian. You turn around and you're just there gazing at it and you become part of this larger picture of what can happen, what has happened and what will happen. Did you undertake that massive project by yourself, or did you have helpers helping you put that together?

[User] No, I did it all myself.

[Assistant] We were visiting about your mural at the Smithsonian, and that it is so awesome when you take a look at it. Could you share with us how that unfolded, as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of those stamps?

[Assistant] Of the stamps.

[User] I think it's the Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project], because it's the biggest, and I collaborated with, or at least an artist in Moscow designed one and his stamp was a double stamp, my stamp was a double stamp. That is, they can be pulled apart and you've got two stamps, but the picture can transcend the separation part. I think that may be. I think it's a very—well, maybe also the benefiting humankind stamp, which is eight stamps that are all associated and connected that form a single picture, but also, when separated, each separated piece is a complete picture, too. That may be my favorite. It's very colorful. And I won some kind of an award for that among stamp collectors.\n\n So the stamps, the mission emblems, the involvement with the movie industry, which it came about through my involvement with NASA. My work with [Stanley] Kubrick in London was another facet of my career that was especially enjoyable and challenging and significant, in that it was for a film that has since become a classic,\n\n 2001\n\n A Space Odyssey\n\n . It was a good experience.

[Assistant] He saw your work in\n\n Life\n\n ? Is that how your connection began?

[User] Exactly, yes. Kubrick had clipped some of my stuff from\n\n Life\n\n magazine as kind of a reference. He worked in London, and until he died, he worked there, and did all of his work there. Have you seen\n\n Eyes Wide Shut\n\n , by the way?

[Assistant] No, I have not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I see that you've got one, and I'm glad that you've got that. The first book that I did was with Isaac Asimov. You know that name?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Isaac was somebody that I had met in Manhattan and had come to know. I asked him if he'd write the book. Not being a writer, I needed somebody to write a text, and, of course, somebody of that stature was very important. I got Buzz [Edwin E.] Aldrin to write the foreword to that very book. It was published in, I think, 1971 or '72. It's called\n\n Our World In Space\n\n by Robert McCall and Isaac Asimov. Since it was my concept and idea, and even though Isaac was the big name on the cover, my name comes first. I remember talking to him about that. He wrote about it in one of his subsequent books, the fact that we had lunch one time, and I said, "Now, Isaac, you're the author of this book, of course, but it's still my idea, and all these paintings are already in existence, and they will form the body of this work, and the reason for its publication."\n\n He said, "Yes, you deserve to be mentioned first."\n\n So that was kind of—because he, of course, is a huge name in authorship of stories that have to do with science and science fiction and science fact and a lot of other stuff, too. Incredible man.\n\n Then my second book was written by Ben Bova. Do you know that name?

[Assistant] I know the name, yes.

[User] Ben wrote my second book, and that book is entitled\n\n A Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\n\n by Ben Bova. It has some of those drawings that I made when the cosmonauts were present and where I first met Alexi Leonov, who is a colorful personality. Have you interviewed him?

[Assistant] No, I have not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isaac was somebody that I had met in Manhattan and had come to know. I asked him if he'd write the book. Not being a writer, I needed somebody to write a text, and, of course, somebody of that stature was very important. I got Buzz [Edwin E.] Aldrin to write the foreword to that very book. It was published in, I think, 1971 or '72. It's called\n\n Our World In Space\n\n by Robert McCall and Isaac Asimov. Since it was my concept and idea, and even though Isaac was the big name on the cover, my name comes first. I remember talking to him about that. He wrote about it in one of his subsequent books, the fact that we had lunch one time, and I said, "Now, Isaac, you're the author of this book, of course, but it's still my idea, and all these paintings are already in existence, and they will form the body of this work, and the reason for its publication."\n\n He said, "Yes, you deserve to be mentioned first."\n\n So that was kind of—because he, of course, is a huge name in authorship of stories that have to do with science and science fiction and science fact and a lot of other stuff, too. Incredible man.\n\n Then my second book was written by Ben Bova. Do you know that name?

[Assistant] I know the name, yes.

[User] Ben wrote my second book, and that book is entitled\n\n A Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\n\n by Ben Bova. It has some of those drawings that I made when the cosmonauts were present and where I first met Alexi Leonov, who is a colorful personality. Have you interviewed him?

[Assistant] No, I have not.

[User] Yes. But he is one great personality in the history of all of this, and one that our astronauts have come to know probably better than any of the other cosmonauts.

[Assistant] About ten years after Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, you entered into a project with a space artist of the Soviet Union.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ben wrote my second book, and that book is entitled\n\n A Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\n\n by Ben Bova. It has some of those drawings that I made when the cosmonauts were present and where I first met Alexi Leonov, who is a colorful personality. Have you interviewed him?

[Assistant] No, I have not.

[User] Yes. But he is one great personality in the history of all of this, and one that our astronauts have come to know probably better than any of the other cosmonauts.

[Assistant] About ten years after Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, you entered into a project with a space artist of the Soviet Union.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us how that developed and what difficulties that you might have had to endure to get that work done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was neat.

[Assistant] Your counterpart was able to see the finished product as well?

[User] It's never been to Russia since. He wanted to get it over there, but there were no funds to do it. It would have had to have been crated again, taken apart. By this time I had a special frame made for it, big heavy frame. Does that frame come apart, too? Anyway, it's never been to Russia. He would love to have had it there, and it was up to him to do it. I was afraid if it went to Russia—I didn't encourage it, because if it went to Russia, it would never, ever get back here. I just knew I'd never see it again. And it's an important part of my collection.\n\n So I paid him. I bought his half of it, and I paid a significant amount of money to him, more than he probably ever would hope to get, but I felt that it had a certain value and that I had to do that, and I did, and he was delighted. So it now is my property and part of my collection, but with a great story behind it.

[Assistant] Such a historic partnership, especially in that time frame in our relationship with Russia.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We do have a new relationship with Russia. In fact, the nineties was spent as part of the Shuttle-Mir program with NASA. Have you had any chance to be involved with that, illustrating that as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's never been to Russia since. He wanted to get it over there, but there were no funds to do it. It would have had to have been crated again, taken apart. By this time I had a special frame made for it, big heavy frame. Does that frame come apart, too? Anyway, it's never been to Russia. He would love to have had it there, and it was up to him to do it. I was afraid if it went to Russia—I didn't encourage it, because if it went to Russia, it would never, ever get back here. I just knew I'd never see it again. And it's an important part of my collection.\n\n So I paid him. I bought his half of it, and I paid a significant amount of money to him, more than he probably ever would hope to get, but I felt that it had a certain value and that I had to do that, and I did, and he was delighted. So it now is my property and part of my collection, but with a great story behind it.

[Assistant] Such a historic partnership, especially in that time frame in our relationship with Russia.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We do have a new relationship with Russia. In fact, the nineties was spent as part of the Shuttle-Mir program with NASA. Have you had any chance to be involved with that, illustrating that as well?

[User] Well, I designed the mission emblem for Hoot [Robert L.] Gibson. Are you aware of that?

[Assistant] No, I didn't know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you were doing those first drawings, how important was it to you to learn as much as you could so that those sketches could be used for historical value?

[User] It was important. It was more important maybe than it is now. No, it's still important, but I paint with greater freedom. That's something that commercial artists kind of have to fight. Because I was trained as an illustrator. Illustrators put in the detail, because their clients want it. They want to see every nut and bolt. Yet great art often is not concerned with all the details. It's the impression. It's the symbolism, and a lot of other more esoteric aspects of art that are more important. It's the emotional impact of the final result, not so much the little details that could even get in the way of the emotional power and impact. But, yes, detail was important. Being authentic, being accurate, but still, as an artist, now recognizing that you can tell the story with even greater success, often when you are not too limited or too constrained by including every detail. You're following that, aren't you? Because it's very, very easily understood and obviously in writing. Some the greatest writers don't put all the words in that they could. As a matter of fact, you can be too descriptive, maybe. So it's the same thing.

[Assistant] You were there when NASA was an infant and have depicted its growth through all these decades.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How have you had to adapt to the change in technology that NASA has undergone? That very—I use the word very loosely—simple drawing of those first rockets, but yet now things are a little more complex.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was important. It was more important maybe than it is now. No, it's still important, but I paint with greater freedom. That's something that commercial artists kind of have to fight. Because I was trained as an illustrator. Illustrators put in the detail, because their clients want it. They want to see every nut and bolt. Yet great art often is not concerned with all the details. It's the impression. It's the symbolism, and a lot of other more esoteric aspects of art that are more important. It's the emotional impact of the final result, not so much the little details that could even get in the way of the emotional power and impact. But, yes, detail was important. Being authentic, being accurate, but still, as an artist, now recognizing that you can tell the story with even greater success, often when you are not too limited or too constrained by including every detail. You're following that, aren't you? Because it's very, very easily understood and obviously in writing. Some the greatest writers don't put all the words in that they could. As a matter of fact, you can be too descriptive, maybe. So it's the same thing.

[Assistant] You were there when NASA was an infant and have depicted its growth through all these decades.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How have you had to adapt to the change in technology that NASA has undergone? That very—I use the word very loosely—simple drawing of those first rockets, but yet now things are a little more complex.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about how you've had to make those changes as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a historic event that is depicted in a big, big canvas. I would like to do a big painting, not a mural necessarily, but just a big painting that would glorify that achievement again. Like in the Space Museum, only approached differently and better and all of those things.

[Assistant] Well, it's a piece of history, and that's definitely what you feel when you walk into the Capitol.

[User] Yes. For a while Senator Swingle [phonetic]—that name probably doesn't mean anything to you, but he was an older man who had been a politician and who was a marvelous guy in charge of the history of the Capitol. He met with me and we walked around to find a place where I could paint this. So there was a time when I was encouraged to think that this could happen. I kept trying to make it happen, but it never did. So you talk about the disappointments, not a great one, but one.\n\n I have never been devastated by disappointments of the sort that I think you're asking about, because there's always something else that takes its place that I can put my effort into and my dreams into. I wanted this to be one of the biggest murals in the country. We were at one time very serious, the top people in Scottsdale were talking about the Scottsdale Space Science Center. That is my idea of what that entity might be, that center painting. That's a very special locale in Scottsdale [Arizona]. That did not come to pass. But on a much smaller scale, and less tremendous in so many ways, but still very satisfying, it's going to happen now in the\n\n Challenger\n\n Learning Center.

[Assistant] Will you give us a tour of it?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Can we walk through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nice question. I think they tend to balance out and focus on a piece of canvas. I try to bring all of those excitements to bear in the paintings that I do, because it seems to me the most productive way of communicating for me. It's the way that I can best—or a combination of words and pictures.

[Assistant] Kind of reminds us of our own technology as you watch NASA grow up from the Mercury to the International Space Station, all that knowledge that you've been able to absorb helps develop what you're developing for the future as well and when we look through those. So it's quite a combination of brain space up there that you're able to mesh through.

[User] Yes. It's interesting how different we all are, isn't it?

[Assistant] And how we see things.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] One of the things that Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz told us was that you were able to evoke the emotions of the people who had worked in the space program and possibly because you were able to get to know them so well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's interesting how different we all are, isn't it?

[Assistant] And how we see things.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] One of the things that Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz told us was that you were able to evoke the emotions of the people who had worked in the space program and possibly because you were able to get to know them so well.

[User] Yes. See, I admired them so enormously, and it comes across. It has to. I don't even care what kind of people they are, but they're engaged in an enterprise that is so worthy and so important and so historic, that I can't help but admire and respect and even relish what they're doing. And they're all, all the guys that were engaged in that marvelous enterprise, which continues, of course—I don't want to talk like it's in the past, because that's what's happening right now. It's just, it's what delights me.\n\n You were going to say something?

[Assistant] I'm going to take advantage of where your location is. You had pointed earlier to the patch that had gone to the Moon with Gene Cernan. Could you explain a little more about what you have hanging here and how that patch came alive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I was so absorbed with the moment that I was not thinking of anything else but. But I've considered all of that at other times, how the progress is just moving forward all the time.\n\n This is a recent painting that I did for Honeywell [Corporation] that is complete fantasy, in the sense that this is Camelback Mountain, which we see right out from our veranda. They have a big plant out here, their space development plant. So this is within our reach. This suggests orbital activity sometime in the distant future when so many things will be occurring. Look, we've got even stuff like that, little planes taking off and then I've brought the Moon up pretty close. That's all just kind of a fantasy thing that I did for them.

[Assistant] This must be one of your latest works of Captain Young.

[User] Oh, no. This is a slide. Oh, yes.

[Assistant] For the recipient part. I recognized this from the Johnson Space Center mural.

[User] Yes. This is a print that I made on my computer and I put this lettering in. I made another one that I had framed in a similar fashion that shows John with his mission emblem, which is this one which I designed. I made both and had them both framed. Then my wife and I evaluated them, and I said, "Now, which is the best one to present to John at this forthcoming event?" We both agreed that the other one was a little better. So I just have this now.\n\n But this is Judy [Resnik] and I had her name there. I designed this emblem for her particular class. It still remains. But I did all of this on my own, in his likeness. No one had seen—the sketch that I had presented and had been okayed was just an anonymous astronaut, but I thought, gosh, John is going to fly this mission. I know him. He's getting ready for it. He's worthy if ever there was a guy.

[Assistant] He's done so much, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. This is a print that I made on my computer and I put this lettering in. I made another one that I had framed in a similar fashion that shows John with his mission emblem, which is this one which I designed. I made both and had them both framed. Then my wife and I evaluated them, and I said, "Now, which is the best one to present to John at this forthcoming event?" We both agreed that the other one was a little better. So I just have this now.\n\n But this is Judy [Resnik] and I had her name there. I designed this emblem for her particular class. It still remains. But I did all of this on my own, in his likeness. No one had seen—the sketch that I had presented and had been okayed was just an anonymous astronaut, but I thought, gosh, John is going to fly this mission. I know him. He's getting ready for it. He's worthy if ever there was a guy.

[Assistant] He's done so much, yes.

[User] The most experienced space commander in the world. How about that.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] So I made it John. Got pictures of him. This is Grissom. Gus' wife visited me when I was painting this, and also [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] wife, when I was painting the mural. One day I saw these women down there and they introduced themselves.

[Assistant] Your family's very well extended, isn't it, because not only do you know just the everyday participants of the space program, you've gotten to know their families as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The most experienced space commander in the world. How about that.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] So I made it John. Got pictures of him. This is Grissom. Gus' wife visited me when I was painting this, and also [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] wife, when I was painting the mural. One day I saw these women down there and they introduced themselves.

[Assistant] Your family's very well extended, isn't it, because not only do you know just the everyday participants of the space program, you've gotten to know their families as well.

[User] Yes. Some of them I have, yes. Yes, I feel very privileged that way.\n\n What else can I—of course, I've got plenty of stuff I could pull out if there ever was a need. I want to show you, though, a copy of that other book just so you know. There's my first book, the one with Isaac Asimov.

[Assistant] What an accomplishment, just doing a book, but then yet getting to do it with him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I made it John. Got pictures of him. This is Grissom. Gus' wife visited me when I was painting this, and also [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] wife, when I was painting the mural. One day I saw these women down there and they introduced themselves.

[Assistant] Your family's very well extended, isn't it, because not only do you know just the everyday participants of the space program, you've gotten to know their families as well.

[User] Yes. Some of them I have, yes. Yes, I feel very privileged that way.\n\n What else can I—of course, I've got plenty of stuff I could pull out if there ever was a need. I want to show you, though, a copy of that other book just so you know. There's my first book, the one with Isaac Asimov.

[Assistant] What an accomplishment, just doing a book, but then yet getting to do it with him.

[User] Yes. Let's see, here, this is the Japanese version of\n\n Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\n\n , by Ben Bova. This is quite a—now, of course, this is all Japanese. The American version is the same size and everything.

[Assistant] Easier to read. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Some of them I have, yes. Yes, I feel very privileged that way.\n\n What else can I—of course, I've got plenty of stuff I could pull out if there ever was a need. I want to show you, though, a copy of that other book just so you know. There's my first book, the one with Isaac Asimov.

[Assistant] What an accomplishment, just doing a book, but then yet getting to do it with him.

[User] Yes. Let's see, here, this is the Japanese version of\n\n Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\n\n , by Ben Bova. This is quite a—now, of course, this is all Japanese. The American version is the same size and everything.

[Assistant] Easier to read. [Laughter]

[User] A lot easier to read. I wanted to show you the sketches that—oh, wait a minute. I was talking to Nancy Conrad this morning. Pete [Charles P.] Conrad [Jr.], who was just killed, as you know, this is a painting that I'm shipping to her. This is Pete and this is Dr. [Joseph P.] Kerwin. They went out to loosen this solar panel that had been jammed.

[Assistant] I'll show that to the camera if we can. Will you explain that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Let's see, here, this is the Japanese version of\n\n Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\n\n , by Ben Bova. This is quite a—now, of course, this is all Japanese. The American version is the same size and everything.

[Assistant] Easier to read. [Laughter]

[User] A lot easier to read. I wanted to show you the sketches that—oh, wait a minute. I was talking to Nancy Conrad this morning. Pete [Charles P.] Conrad [Jr.], who was just killed, as you know, this is a painting that I'm shipping to her. This is Pete and this is Dr. [Joseph P.] Kerwin. They went out to loosen this solar panel that had been jammed.

[Assistant] I'll show that to the camera if we can. Will you explain that?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Watch your step there. I'm sure they will gladly add that to their collection of things for them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot easier to read. I wanted to show you the sketches that—oh, wait a minute. I was talking to Nancy Conrad this morning. Pete [Charles P.] Conrad [Jr.], who was just killed, as you know, this is a painting that I'm shipping to her. This is Pete and this is Dr. [Joseph P.] Kerwin. They went out to loosen this solar panel that had been jammed.

[Assistant] I'll show that to the camera if we can. Will you explain that?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Watch your step there. I'm sure they will gladly add that to their collection of things for them.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. I sold this to Pete many years ago, the painting, but I had an exhibition in progress.\n\n This is a painting that I did. Actually, it was for\n\n Popular Science\n\n magazine. But I made it large and it's a good piece of work. I sold it to Pete, Pete Conrad, many years ago. But then I had it in an exhibition, so he couldn't pick it up right away, and then he never did. He had paid me a small portion of the cost of it. It wasn't until I met Nancy recently, within the last year, that I said, "Listen, he paid me some money, and I'm going to give it back to you. I don't really want to sell the painting," but then she wanted it very badly. So based on our original agreement, I decided, well, she should have it. So now I'll be sending it to her. Just returned with these other paintings. So that's the story of that.

[Assistant] So many visitors go to the Smithsonian and see your mural and, of course, people can find your art books, but do you have a favorite painting that if you could pick that you would want people to see in person, do you have one in specific?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Watch your step there. I'm sure they will gladly add that to their collection of things for them.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. I sold this to Pete many years ago, the painting, but I had an exhibition in progress.\n\n This is a painting that I did. Actually, it was for\n\n Popular Science\n\n magazine. But I made it large and it's a good piece of work. I sold it to Pete, Pete Conrad, many years ago. But then I had it in an exhibition, so he couldn't pick it up right away, and then he never did. He had paid me a small portion of the cost of it. It wasn't until I met Nancy recently, within the last year, that I said, "Listen, he paid me some money, and I'm going to give it back to you. I don't really want to sell the painting," but then she wanted it very badly. So based on our original agreement, I decided, well, she should have it. So now I'll be sending it to her. Just returned with these other paintings. So that's the story of that.

[Assistant] So many visitors go to the Smithsonian and see your mural and, of course, people can find your art books, but do you have a favorite painting that if you could pick that you would want people to see in person, do you have one in specific?

[User] I think it's the mural.

[Assistant] The mural itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. I sold this to Pete many years ago, the painting, but I had an exhibition in progress.\n\n This is a painting that I did. Actually, it was for\n\n Popular Science\n\n magazine. But I made it large and it's a good piece of work. I sold it to Pete, Pete Conrad, many years ago. But then I had it in an exhibition, so he couldn't pick it up right away, and then he never did. He had paid me a small portion of the cost of it. It wasn't until I met Nancy recently, within the last year, that I said, "Listen, he paid me some money, and I'm going to give it back to you. I don't really want to sell the painting," but then she wanted it very badly. So based on our original agreement, I decided, well, she should have it. So now I'll be sending it to her. Just returned with these other paintings. So that's the story of that.

[Assistant] So many visitors go to the Smithsonian and see your mural and, of course, people can find your art books, but do you have a favorite painting that if you could pick that you would want people to see in person, do you have one in specific?

[User] I think it's the mural.

[Assistant] The mural itself?

[User] In Washington [DC]. It's the biggest.

[Assistant] It certainly says so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Washington [DC]. It's the biggest.

[Assistant] It certainly says so much.

[User] This is a significant drawing that I made at the Johnson Space Center. Pete Conrad had returned. Let's see. What happened? They were determining how to handle the—Skylab had been launched and jammed, and they were trying to work out a way of protecting it from the sun. That's why they had spread that parasol kind of thing. I've forgotten some of the details of that particular sketch. But these are sketches that were made in real time from the Johnson Space Center.\n\n This is from launch control at Kennedy, in that big building that overlooks the launch site. This is from the Johnson Space Center live at mission control. I'm looking at the big screen that shows the—I forget which astronaut this is, who actually dropped a feather and a little hammer.

[Assistant] Dave Scott.

[User] They hit the ground at the same time, you know. These are other sketches that were made.

[Assistant] That was another piece of information that Mr. Kranz actually told us, is that he had to be careful, because when you were in the room, he tended to want to watch you instead of do his job. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is a significant drawing that I made at the Johnson Space Center. Pete Conrad had returned. Let's see. What happened? They were determining how to handle the—Skylab had been launched and jammed, and they were trying to work out a way of protecting it from the sun. That's why they had spread that parasol kind of thing. I've forgotten some of the details of that particular sketch. But these are sketches that were made in real time from the Johnson Space Center.\n\n This is from launch control at Kennedy, in that big building that overlooks the launch site. This is from the Johnson Space Center live at mission control. I'm looking at the big screen that shows the—I forget which astronaut this is, who actually dropped a feather and a little hammer.

[Assistant] Dave Scott.

[User] They hit the ground at the same time, you know. These are other sketches that were made.

[Assistant] That was another piece of information that Mr. Kranz actually told us, is that he had to be careful, because when you were in the room, he tended to want to watch you instead of do his job. [Laughter]

[User] Oh, really. [Laughter]

[Assistant] But don't tell him I told you he said that. They said he was fascinated you being able to take what was happening so quickly and putting it down on paper. So I know that he enjoyed very much working on the Mission Operations Directorate patch with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They hit the ground at the same time, you know. These are other sketches that were made.

[Assistant] That was another piece of information that Mr. Kranz actually told us, is that he had to be careful, because when you were in the room, he tended to want to watch you instead of do his job. [Laughter]

[User] Oh, really. [Laughter]

[Assistant] But don't tell him I told you he said that. They said he was fascinated you being able to take what was happening so quickly and putting it down on paper. So I know that he enjoyed very much working on the Mission Operations Directorate patch with you.

[User] Yes. He was very, very instrumental in that. He was the one that asked me to do it, but also the one who really did most of the design. I just brought it together and in a way that could be reproduced nicely. Great fun recalling all of that.

[Assistant] So where do you think your work's going to take you next now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, really. [Laughter]

[Assistant] But don't tell him I told you he said that. They said he was fascinated you being able to take what was happening so quickly and putting it down on paper. So I know that he enjoyed very much working on the Mission Operations Directorate patch with you.

[User] Yes. He was very, very instrumental in that. He was the one that asked me to do it, but also the one who really did most of the design. I just brought it together and in a way that could be reproduced nicely. Great fun recalling all of that.

[Assistant] So where do you think your work's going to take you next now?

[User] Well, the next interesting project for me is, of course, this mural, which is going to be—I'm not going to be painting this, see, this will be enlarged digitally and printed on canvas. I've seen samples. I know what it will be, and it will be very effective.

[Assistant] So will this be the first time that your work's been produced like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the next interesting project for me is, of course, this mural, which is going to be—I'm not going to be painting this, see, this will be enlarged digitally and printed on canvas. I've seen samples. I know what it will be, and it will be very effective.

[Assistant] So will this be the first time that your work's been produced like that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's exciting.

[User] Yes. Then it will be mounted on the wall, so my project really is to just to supervise the event. It'll be done in California, and then it'll be brought here and mounted in the new Challenger Learning Center. So that's that, and this painting here, and the hope for the new things that are happening. I've got another book that I'm working to have published. I still don't have a publisher for it, but I'm optimistic.

[Assistant] I think that's definitely a message that you give in all of the works that you do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's exciting.

[User] Yes. Then it will be mounted on the wall, so my project really is to just to supervise the event. It'll be done in California, and then it'll be brought here and mounted in the new Challenger Learning Center. So that's that, and this painting here, and the hope for the new things that are happening. I've got another book that I'm working to have published. I still don't have a publisher for it, but I'm optimistic.

[Assistant] I think that's definitely a message that you give in all of the works that you do.

[User] Let's see. There must be something else that I can talk about. I mean, clearly there are so many incidents that I could go on and on, but I have to be kind of reminded of them. Well, we've got lots of time.

[Assistant] We're doing fine. I was going to see, if you want, we could take a break for just a minute.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Then it will be mounted on the wall, so my project really is to just to supervise the event. It'll be done in California, and then it'll be brought here and mounted in the new Challenger Learning Center. So that's that, and this painting here, and the hope for the new things that are happening. I've got another book that I'm working to have published. I still don't have a publisher for it, but I'm optimistic.

[Assistant] I think that's definitely a message that you give in all of the works that you do.

[User] Let's see. There must be something else that I can talk about. I mean, clearly there are so many incidents that I could go on and on, but I have to be kind of reminded of them. Well, we've got lots of time.

[Assistant] We're doing fine. I was going to see, if you want, we could take a break for just a minute.

[User] Let's do.

[Assistant] I can ask Sandra and Carol if they have some things to ask you as well, and give you a chance to collect your thoughts and see what else you would like to add.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. There must be something else that I can talk about. I mean, clearly there are so many incidents that I could go on and on, but I have to be kind of reminded of them. Well, we've got lots of time.

[Assistant] We're doing fine. I was going to see, if you want, we could take a break for just a minute.

[User] Let's do.

[Assistant] I can ask Sandra and Carol if they have some things to ask you as well, and give you a chance to collect your thoughts and see what else you would like to add.

[User] Sure. Yes.

[Assistant] Would you like to do that for just a minute?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The thing that's exciting is that our NASA program is suffering from low budget and that kind of thing, but these things fluctuate and change. Right now it's not getting the kind of support that it needs. But, nonetheless, it's doing things that are remarkable and significant. The coming years, there is every reason to hope that conditions will alter in ways that will enhance the budget, that maybe there will be a breakthrough of some kind. Maybe there will be a space program that somehow lights the fires of imagination and excitement of the American people that would support more funding. These things will happen. It will fluctuate.\n\n So my wish for NASA is that we can continue to expand our energies. These things are inevitable, I think. Great new discoveries will be made regularly, and more and more people will be engaged in the space adventure, and it will continue to grow and expand and become more and more a part of all our lives, as we see our loved ones, children, wives, husbands, moving out into space, for one reason or another, working, exploring. It's all going to happen. I'm very optimistic about all that.

[Assistant] Do you believe that space artists, like yourself, could have an impact on the future of NASA?

[User] I hope so.

[Assistant] Is there a message that you can tell the public through your work?

[User] Yes, I hope that I can do that, and I hope that I am, I hope. I hope. I want to. I think I have to some degree.

[Assistant] I think you have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so.

[Assistant] Is there a message that you can tell the public through your work?

[User] Yes, I hope that I can do that, and I hope that I am, I hope. I hope. I want to. I think I have to some degree.

[Assistant] I think you have.

[User] I think others have to tell me. I can't—

[Assistant] Well, I think you have, and I think from the time that you looked in that telescope that you saw great things, and those great things are now for us to see on your canvases. So we appreciate that and we certainly appreciate the time that you've given to us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think others have to tell me. I can't—

[Assistant] Well, I think you have, and I think from the time that you looked in that telescope that you saw great things, and those great things are now for us to see on your canvases. So we appreciate that and we certainly appreciate the time that you've given to us today.

[User] Well, I've loved this opportunity, Rebecca. It's been a privilege, and I just hope that I've said some things here of value, and that maybe there will be another opportunity somewhere along the line to add to what I've said.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] I think what you're doing is important and good. I congratulate George Abbey for having initiated it. I think that's correct, isn't it?

[Assistant] That is correct. It's his vision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I've loved this opportunity, Rebecca. It's been a privilege, and I just hope that I've said some things here of value, and that maybe there will be another opportunity somewhere along the line to add to what I've said.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] I think what you're doing is important and good. I congratulate George Abbey for having initiated it. I think that's correct, isn't it?

[Assistant] That is correct. It's his vision.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] To be able to bring this history alive and that people can share their experiences and their thoughts, so that others in future generations can have that view.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think what you're doing is important and good. I congratulate George Abbey for having initiated it. I think that's correct, isn't it?

[Assistant] That is correct. It's his vision.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] To be able to bring this history alive and that people can share their experiences and their thoughts, so that others in future generations can have that view.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So we thank you for participating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned your crew members. How was it as a crew? Did you bond pretty well?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, you spend so much time working together, and that's part of the process of crew selections. You don't put oil and water together. When I ran the office, I was responsible for crew assignments for the years I did that, and you specifically look at—and generally everybody in the office gets along quite well. I mean, when you get 100 people, you're always going to have a few people that don't have the same personalities or personalities don't match or something. You don't try and cause problems, so you look for people that are compatible. Once again, I can't speak for assignments that were made on me before I was doing them, but it was pretty obvious by even looking at it. I mean, you look for a mix. You look for people that have specialties that mesh with the mission requirements and all those sorts of things.\n\n Yes, it was a good crew. Dick Truly had been around a long time and was a good commander and taught us a lot. Everybody had their strengths and their area of expertise, and you focused on those and shared your experience and your wisdom with the other folks, and we got the job done.

[Assistant] Great. Moving on to your next mission, it was 51-G.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] About when were you assigned for that one, do you remember? Or about how long before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. If that had been an autonomous—just programmed with no capability of human interaction, we'd have never got it back. It's as simple as that.

[Assistant] This was your first flight as commander.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the selection not of the payload specialists, but of the mission specialists for the crew?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Not at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the selection not of the payload specialists, but of the mission specialists for the crew?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Not at all?

[User] Commanders never were. The whole crew was assigned by—at that point in time it was Mr. Abbey, and John [W.] Young was head of the [astronaut] office. But I think everybody pretty much believed that George was the ultimate assigner of crews, so he assigned the crews and it went from there.

[Assistant] So this was quite unique. You mentioned that you had the Prince on board and then a French payload specialist as well. So you had quite an international flavor to the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Not at all?

[User] Commanders never were. The whole crew was assigned by—at that point in time it was Mr. Abbey, and John [W.] Young was head of the [astronaut] office. But I think everybody pretty much believed that George was the ultimate assigner of crews, so he assigned the crews and it went from there.

[Assistant] So this was quite unique. You mentioned that you had the Prince on board and then a French payload specialist as well. So you had quite an international flavor to the mission.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that make things different from your first mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only one person could put the helmet on. The other people would sit around and look at the computer screens. Of course the person who was driving the arm had the controls so that the arm was properly simulated. Nowadays, everybody can participate. Also now you can get in the virtual reality DOME [Device for Orientation and Motion Environments] and fly the SAFER [Simplified Aid For EVA Rescue] unit around. There’s all sorts of things we do in virtual reality now that we didn’t do back then, but you had to start somewhere.

[Assistant] I thought it was an interesting concept. Dick [Richard O.] Covey had told us that you and Story [Musgrave] were called the odd couple. Can you tell us about that?

[User] Odd because we were different or odd because of Story? Story was a unique person. Did they call us that to our faces? I’m trying to remember back then. I’m not surprised, I’m not surprised. We had our own way of going about things, and Story definitely was one of a kind. I also had my own way of doing things. I’ll have to ask Covey about that the next time I see him. I could make up a reason, but I can’t honestly remember whether it’s because Story and I were so different, or just whatever. I appreciate your letting me know that.

[Assistant] I just thought there might be an interesting story there.

[User] There might be. I’ll have to go and look at Covey’s history, see what he has to say.

[Assistant] Yes, look at his transcript.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Odd because we were different or odd because of Story? Story was a unique person. Did they call us that to our faces? I’m trying to remember back then. I’m not surprised, I’m not surprised. We had our own way of going about things, and Story definitely was one of a kind. I also had my own way of doing things. I’ll have to ask Covey about that the next time I see him. I could make up a reason, but I can’t honestly remember whether it’s because Story and I were so different, or just whatever. I appreciate your letting me know that.

[Assistant] I just thought there might be an interesting story there.

[User] There might be. I’ll have to go and look at Covey’s history, see what he has to say.

[Assistant] Yes, look at his transcript.

[User] . Or I’ll ask Story the next time I see him.

[Assistant] He had also mentioned that at some point you guys had signed some insulation that you ended up installing into the telescope.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. There was a little concern—we had talked about should we write our names or anything inside the telescope somewhere, and we decided no that would not be good, because maybe it could cause some organic contamination. We figured that since these were going on the outside it would be okay. So yes, we took a magic marker and signed the inside of them so it wouldn’t be visible to anybody else, but we knew it was there. That was nice.

[Assistant] That’s cool. So they were brought back by the subsequent crew?

[User] No, they’re still there on Hubble. Those magnetometers, the original set, were never meant to be removed. As I said, we installed the new magnetometers on top of the old ones. They clipped onto the old magnetometers. I think the new ones that we put in are still functioning. I don’t know what the problem was with the old ones. They failed pretty soon, the first couple of years, but the new ones are still working.

[Assistant] I thought that was an interesting story. Your crew actually won a pretty significant award after you came back.

[User] The Freedom [Forum Spirit] Award, which was $100,000, which we were not allowed to accept, being government employees. We jokingly asked if we resigned from the government could we accept the award, but they said no. It was nice, we had a big black-tie affair. What we did was to donate the award to the NASA scholarship foundation so that it could do some good for some people. We got a lot of awards for Hubble. Monetarily that was the biggest one, but we got awards from Aviation Week [& Space Technology] and from the AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics]. We all realized of course that it was an award to the whole Hubble team, but as astronauts you’re at the top of the pyramid and so we got a lot of the public recognition.

[Assistant] Was NASA thrilled with the success of the mission? I know last time we had talked about you meeting with [NASA Administrator Daniel S.] Goldin and he said, “You’ve got to succeed.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, mm hmm. And so we got married in December. And I forget when we actually went to our, our Peace Corps training. It was in Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] Before that, what was your reaction of your friends and family when they found out you were accepted in the Peace Corps and going to Iran?

[User] I think they thought we were a little nuts. A little adventurous, but also they were glad that Bruce, my then husband, was not going to go to Vietnam. My mother probably was really, she was kind of very tied into me. And she was probably a little bit nonplused that I was going half the way around the world. I used to tell people that I had to go halfway around the world to cut her apron strings. It's kind of a family joke.

[Assistant] So where did you go for training?

[User] We went to Brattleboro, Vermont, and I was really excited about the training. For the first time, you know, I learned about things like T groups or even I don't even know what a T group is now. But I remember it was kind of a quasi, you know, therapy or feedback group and we were discussing things and dealing with conflict, and that was very exciting to me. And we had a person in our training whose name was Terry O'Donnell, and he was a hardcore ex-pat and he was an author. And he wrote, um, he had been writing about Iran and living in Iran for 20 years. And he was kind of a, you know, hard boiled kind of guy. And he was one of the key people that would tell us about what life as an expat was going to be.

[Assistant] Was he an American expatriate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three months, I think. And some of the, the people who became most influential after I got to Iran were some of the staff who trained, trained us. At that point, they were not having in-country training. We did all our training at Brattleboro, Vermont, and then we flew.

[Assistant] What was the typical day of training like in Vermont?

[User] Oh, well, I can't remember. And the reason I can't remember, Ernie, is because, um, I subsequently worked on two other trainings for the Peace Corps, and they sort of got more involved on my own, being staff and training than I had. I just remember it being really hard and they taught us to speak, but not to read and write. In those days they did not, uh, we were illiterate. We could speak fairly well, but we, they weren't attempting to teach us. Now, I believe they do.

[Assistant] What's, your mention, how many hours a day was language training?

[User] Oh, I remember it was a lot. I remember, I think they said we had 300 hours of training at the time it was over.

[Assistant] Was there any physical like some, some training groups got into the whole physical thing with ropes and all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, I can't remember. And the reason I can't remember, Ernie, is because, um, I subsequently worked on two other trainings for the Peace Corps, and they sort of got more involved on my own, being staff and training than I had. I just remember it being really hard and they taught us to speak, but not to read and write. In those days they did not, uh, we were illiterate. We could speak fairly well, but we, they weren't attempting to teach us. Now, I believe they do.

[Assistant] What's, your mention, how many hours a day was language training?

[User] Oh, I remember it was a lot. I remember, I think they said we had 300 hours of training at the time it was over.

[Assistant] Was there any physical like some, some training groups got into the whole physical thing with ropes and all that?

[User] No, no. We didn't do, our training was not physical. It was like classroom and emotional. That was what I remember. Classroom and emotional. And the Iranian men who were teachers. I think we even had two women maybe who were teachers, were very, uh. They were very kind and they made you want to get to know other Iranians. So they were a very good introduction to Iranians' temperament.

[Assistant] And about how large was your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I remember it was a lot. I remember, I think they said we had 300 hours of training at the time it was over.

[Assistant] Was there any physical like some, some training groups got into the whole physical thing with ropes and all that?

[User] No, no. We didn't do, our training was not physical. It was like classroom and emotional. That was what I remember. Classroom and emotional. And the Iranian men who were teachers. I think we even had two women maybe who were teachers, were very, uh. They were very kind and they made you want to get to know other Iranians. So they were a very good introduction to Iranians' temperament.

[Assistant] And about how large was your group?

[User] Uh, maybe 20 couples. Half of them left maybe.

[Assistant] It was all couples.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. We didn't do, our training was not physical. It was like classroom and emotional. That was what I remember. Classroom and emotional. And the Iranian men who were teachers. I think we even had two women maybe who were teachers, were very, uh. They were very kind and they made you want to get to know other Iranians. So they were a very good introduction to Iranians' temperament.

[Assistant] And about how large was your group?

[User] Uh, maybe 20 couples. Half of them left maybe.

[Assistant] It was all couples.

[User] Yes, I believe it was all couples.

[Assistant] So no single men. No single women, you explained earlier. But no single men either?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, maybe 20 couples. Half of them left maybe.

[Assistant] It was all couples.

[User] Yes, I believe it was all couples.

[Assistant] So no single men. No single women, you explained earlier. But no single men either?

[User] I don't think so. No, it was all couples. And that's what later I became very interested in the cross-cultural aspects of it. I mean, as I mentioned, I was a sociology major, so this really, I felt tied in to what I was interested in. I just began to see the whole world is just little subcultures and that continued on. You know, my job now, dyslexics are really a subculture and the way they learn is really just like a little pocket of how people are. So.

[Assistant] What's fascinating is I've never heard of any other program that was all couples. Now, did that spread to other Peace Corps programs in Iran or just do you think it was that your, were you unique, do you think your group in that way or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I believe it was all couples.

[Assistant] So no single men. No single women, you explained earlier. But no single men either?

[User] I don't think so. No, it was all couples. And that's what later I became very interested in the cross-cultural aspects of it. I mean, as I mentioned, I was a sociology major, so this really, I felt tied in to what I was interested in. I just began to see the whole world is just little subcultures and that continued on. You know, my job now, dyslexics are really a subculture and the way they learn is really just like a little pocket of how people are. So.

[Assistant] What's fascinating is I've never heard of any other program that was all couples. Now, did that spread to other Peace Corps programs in Iran or just do you think it was that your, were you unique, do you think your group in that way or?

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] How about other Iranian volunteers, were they? Peace Corps volunteers. I'm sure you must have met others over there. Were they mainly couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. No, it was all couples. And that's what later I became very interested in the cross-cultural aspects of it. I mean, as I mentioned, I was a sociology major, so this really, I felt tied in to what I was interested in. I just began to see the whole world is just little subcultures and that continued on. You know, my job now, dyslexics are really a subculture and the way they learn is really just like a little pocket of how people are. So.

[Assistant] What's fascinating is I've never heard of any other program that was all couples. Now, did that spread to other Peace Corps programs in Iran or just do you think it was that your, were you unique, do you think your group in that way or?

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] How about other Iranian volunteers, were they? Peace Corps volunteers. I'm sure you must have met others over there. Were they mainly couples?

[User] Yeah, they were mainly couples. Definitely couples. I think there was one. I mean, I think there was a redheaded man named Kerry. Maybe he didn't have a wife but.

[Assistant] Anything else? Any insights, again, into why that would be for Iran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] How about other Iranian volunteers, were they? Peace Corps volunteers. I'm sure you must have met others over there. Were they mainly couples?

[User] Yeah, they were mainly couples. Definitely couples. I think there was one. I mean, I think there was a redheaded man named Kerry. Maybe he didn't have a wife but.

[Assistant] Anything else? Any insights, again, into why that would be for Iran?

[User] No, I don't really know why that, why that was. I just, I mean, I remember some. I remember the Mantauco story and Nick, for instance, they were Italian and they had gotten their wedding pictures stolen from their car when they got married. You know, we were all kind of young and we all had wedding stories to tell. It was sort of like The Newlywed Game. And none of us were, you know, experienced at being married or experienced at life really. It was a lot of fresh college graduates who were mostly, you know, couples out of college.

[Assistant] Your guess is there were about 20 couples in training, something like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they were mainly couples. Definitely couples. I think there was one. I mean, I think there was a redheaded man named Kerry. Maybe he didn't have a wife but.

[Assistant] Anything else? Any insights, again, into why that would be for Iran?

[User] No, I don't really know why that, why that was. I just, I mean, I remember some. I remember the Mantauco story and Nick, for instance, they were Italian and they had gotten their wedding pictures stolen from their car when they got married. You know, we were all kind of young and we all had wedding stories to tell. It was sort of like The Newlywed Game. And none of us were, you know, experienced at being married or experienced at life really. It was a lot of fresh college graduates who were mostly, you know, couples out of college.

[Assistant] Your guess is there were about 20 couples in training, something like that?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Now were any deselected out in training that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't really know why that, why that was. I just, I mean, I remember some. I remember the Mantauco story and Nick, for instance, they were Italian and they had gotten their wedding pictures stolen from their car when they got married. You know, we were all kind of young and we all had wedding stories to tell. It was sort of like The Newlywed Game. And none of us were, you know, experienced at being married or experienced at life really. It was a lot of fresh college graduates who were mostly, you know, couples out of college.

[Assistant] Your guess is there were about 20 couples in training, something like that?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Now were any deselected out in training that you remember?

[User] No, I know. But by the time we'd been there a year, half are gone.

[Assistant] Any sense of why that might be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And about how far away was it would you guess? How many hours would it take you?

[User] A lifetime. It took, I don't know. I think we were on the bus maybe 5 hours and maybe we had to change. And then we got to Azerbaijan. And then we were just, like, exhausted, just to like to be in the room. And then you were scared to go out and then you went out and then could you find your way back and everything? It was really like basic survival. And it was, I, yeah, I hadn't thought about that in a long time.

[Assistant] So your task was maybe given a certain amount of money, get to Azerbaijan. Let's spend the night maybe?

[User] Spend the night and or two days even maybe, and then come back. Right. And so we were very proud that we made it back a lot. I mean, we weren't in any danger, but we felt everything was fine and we were trying out our Farsi for the first time, you know, without any instructors around. And not to try to. We were very, we'd been very, uh. It had been drilled into us that we shouldn't offend people, you know, so we're trying to do everything right and not be offensive and. That was pretty intense. I remember just like sweating bullets, just like, I just tried to do it all right. And wondering if it was right or could we order food or you know.

[Assistant] What, now, this was the bus stop that was the trip was so hot and with ice cream?