[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A great group. I got to help pick that one, too.

[Assistant] Well, talk to us about the fact that you were called the “Ace Satellite Repair Company” and how that came about, and then, of course, about doing the satellite repair.

[User] Well, the mission was to go repair the satellite, and the “Ace” thing had come along earlier, actually prior to the Shuttle flying. We lost one of our pilots out at Flight Ops, not one of the astronauts. Good friend. Not too long after that his wife needed to move, so we formed the Ace Moving Company, and our motto was “We move single women anywhere and husbands out.” [Laughs] It was mostly a social thing, but we started that and then sort of built on it. Prior to our flight—I believe it was STS-5—they also used the Ace Moving Company sign, because they were deploying satellites on that [mission]. So it was sort of an extension of those earlier days to call ourselves the Ace Satellite Repair, because that was our job to go up and repair the satellite.

[Assistant] I want to talk more about that, but you mentioned about helping to pick this crew. What did you look for in a crew member?

[User] Again, people that were compatible, that could work together well, and people that had the talents that I thought were necessary to go do this particular task, which was going to be a challenging one, especially the EVA part of it. “Ox,” or Jim van Hoften, and George, or “Pinky,” Nelson were both great guys and hardworking folks, and they needed to be to do this job.

[Assistant] When you were told that you were going to have this command, when George Abbey explained it to you, were all these components already there? How did your command come about? Was the command connected with these operations, or did you get this command of the next Shuttle mission and then this information was attached to it later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, what we’d used previously and what we’d set up for STS-1 and the subsequent missions was two maneuvers of the OMS engines to establish our orbit. That meant that we’d cut off the main engines so that we were somewhat short of the apogee or the high point of the orbit that we wanted. Then we did—shortly after the engines [cut off] and we shut down the APUs—we did a burn of the orbital maneuvering engines to get the apogee up at the right altitude. Then we flew around to the apogee and fired the engines again to get the perigee up.\n\n People looking at flight design came up with, “Hey, we can do that by just using the main engines to get the apogee at the right point so that you don’t need that first burn.” It’s a much easier task from a crew standpoint, because you’re pretty busy there right after main engine cutoff, and this took away some work, so it was a neat thing to try. We were going up pretty high on that one, too, so it worked out good from my perspective.

[Assistant] So was it your recommendation to continue?

[User] Oh yes, after that I said, “Hey, this is a nice way to fly,” and I believe it’s still being used today, to the best of my knowledge.

[Assistant] You had trained for an EVA and never used it. Did you get to train for an MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit] and didn’t get to use that, either?

[User] [Laughs] No. No, we talked about an MMU also on that first flight to repair tiles. We looked at that. I had worked on the predecessor to the MMU back in the Skylab days, which they used to fly around inside the Skylab vehicle, so I got a chance to do a lot of simulations with it, but no, I didn’t have any chance to use it. So one of the bad [things] about being commander, you don’t get to go outside and do a space walk.

[Assistant] But you get to look out the window a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, after that I said, “Hey, this is a nice way to fly,” and I believe it’s still being used today, to the best of my knowledge.

[Assistant] You had trained for an EVA and never used it. Did you get to train for an MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit] and didn’t get to use that, either?

[User] [Laughs] No. No, we talked about an MMU also on that first flight to repair tiles. We looked at that. I had worked on the predecessor to the MMU back in the Skylab days, which they used to fly around inside the Skylab vehicle, so I got a chance to do a lot of simulations with it, but no, I didn’t have any chance to use it. So one of the bad [things] about being commander, you don’t get to go outside and do a space walk.

[Assistant] But you get to look out the window a lot.

[User] You get to look out the window a lot.

[Assistant] Well, you brought another one home to Edwards, another Shuttle you landed there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughs] No. No, we talked about an MMU also on that first flight to repair tiles. We looked at that. I had worked on the predecessor to the MMU back in the Skylab days, which they used to fly around inside the Skylab vehicle, so I got a chance to do a lot of simulations with it, but no, I didn’t have any chance to use it. So one of the bad [things] about being commander, you don’t get to go outside and do a space walk.

[Assistant] But you get to look out the window a lot.

[User] You get to look out the window a lot.

[Assistant] Well, you brought another one home to Edwards, another Shuttle you landed there.

[User] Got waved off again. [Laughs] Seemed like I was having a hard time getting back into the Kennedy Space Center. But again we came out and landed out at Edwards, and that worked great. Another weather problem, which is quite common at KSC.

[Assistant] While you were preparing for 41-C, you were also assigned as commander of [STS] 41-G. How did you handle the training for back-to-back missions, and how did the situation impact the crew and you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t on board. Actually, that ice that formed was due to the flash evaporator, and it was due to a problem that I made happen, because the flash evaporator, when you turned it on, it’s supposed to kick off and start flashing water to cool the vehicle down. In the simulator it quite often wouldn’t work, and you’d have to cycle it. And I ended up cycling it several times without consulting with the ground. I followed the procedure, but the procedure didn’t say what happened if it didn’t work the first or second time you did it.\n\n But the result of all those cyclings put the water coming out of where the flash evaporator, and put an ice cone out there that we ended up having to deal with, to get rid of. In the end everything worked out okay, and it wasn’t that hot in the cabin. It was kind of warm, but we were down to T-shirts and shorts.

[Assistant] It’s good you trained in Houston. [Laughter]

[User] Right. We’re used to it.

[Assistant] Well, you got to bring this Shuttle home to Kennedy.

[User] Finally got into KSC.

[Assistant] Tell us about the difference in landing there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we obviously knew that there was no reason to continue with the training that we were doing, and so our intent was to head back to Houston. They had flown us to Los Alamos in a small plane, and so they took us back to Albuquerque [New Mexico], where we had our T-38s, and we flew back to Houston.

[Assistant] You became part of a Mishap Review Board. How soon did that happen after the accident that you were called to work with that?

[User] It was almost immediately. I think it was the day we got back that George called me in and said that they were putting together a NASA Mishap Report, and that J. R. Thompson was going to lead it up. J. R. had been the guy that headed the development of the Shuttle Main Engines. He no longer worked for NASA at that time, but they brought him back in to lead it, and they asked me to be his Deputy for that. So shortly, maybe within a day, I got in a T-38 and headed to Kennedy Space Center, and started to work the cause of the accident and the recovery of the vehicle and the crew remains.

[Assistant] How did that organization of that effort come to be? Did you have outside people helping you, or were you one of the instrumental people that started putting what you needed to accomplish, what you needed—

[User] Some of both. I’m not sure who came down with—hey, we obviously had to put together an investigation team, and somehow George got me involved with it, which he was good at, at getting what he wanted. So we actually took several astronauts and brought them down there with us to work in various capacities. Bob Overmyer was the guy we brought down to primarily work the recovery of the vehicle parts and crew remains, but we had probably half a dozen astronauts that were there. We brought in the Navy salvage group, who were the likely ones to go in and pick up debris off the ocean. So some of it was being directed; some of it was J. R. and I sitting down and saying what we needed.

[Assistant] How long did this period of action last in your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure.

[Assistant] Found a familiarity there?

[User] I knew the Centers, knew most of the folks in management. I had gone through the period of time where legally—when you leave NASA in the kind of position I was in as the Director of KSC, you can’t go in and interface with NASA directly for one year, and even longer than that for some contracts that you might have let. But I was past that point, so I felt Dan Goldin was still the Administrator of NASA, and I learned that when Dan was worried about something, I ought to be worried about it, too. So I spent a lot of time talking to him, and the Marshall people and all the Centers.

[Assistant] You mentioned it here and there, but we really haven’t had an opportunity yet to talk about Columbia. In February 2003, we lost that Orbiter and the crew. In fact, both the Shuttles that you flew are gone now. Tell us about where you were with Columbia. And were you involved in anyway with the Agency of helping to deal with that tragedy and bring us back to flight?

[User] I can remember [it] was one morning, and I was in the kitchen with my wife. Got a call from my daughter Susan, who works here at JSC for United Space Alliance, and she said, “Dad, there’s a problem.”

[Assistant] Yes, and then the day happened from that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I will miss most the contributions we give to our country. I signed up to do this work foLmy nation. I am still going to do volunteer work. I am going to be active in NARFE, National Active and Retired Employees Association. I have.been asked to run as the President of the Northern Virginia Chapter 1665 ofNARFE which I am doing. It looks like I will be elected Chapter President. I will be active in NARFE over the next several years. Some ofthe things I will miss as a Federal employee are the work itself, the importance ofthe work, and the people who work with you. I have known a great group ofpeople over the past 30 years including some co-workers, some support staff, and some supervisors. I will miss some ofthe people whom I have treasured.

[Assistant] What will you miss least?

[User] I guess what I will miss least is sometimes how long it takes to get things done in a bureaucracy. I am sort ofa Type A, impatient person, and sometimes I would like something to move quicker. However, because the ways things go in the government, it takes a while for all the checks and balances to work out. That is probably what I won't miss - some ofthe pokiness, delays that come along with the bureaucracy.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add?

[User] Yes, I would like to thank you (Charles Brett, husband ofBarbara Brett) for interviewing me on behalf ofthe National Archives Assembly. I would like to ask you a few questions since you worked here at the National Archives for 13.5 years (March 1998 to November 2001) in Records Management (NWML). Would you want to say what your favorite Federal job was during your 37 year Federal career?

[Assistant] I think teaching Federal employees Records Management and conducting briefings on Records Management at Federal agencies in order to share information and to contribute to people's work product. So, I would say the teaching aspect ofmy Job at NARA and the briefing program on Records Management for Federal agencies and their responses.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess what I will miss least is sometimes how long it takes to get things done in a bureaucracy. I am sort ofa Type A, impatient person, and sometimes I would like something to move quicker. However, because the ways things go in the government, it takes a while for all the checks and balances to work out. That is probably what I won't miss - some ofthe pokiness, delays that come along with the bureaucracy.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add?

[User] Yes, I would like to thank you (Charles Brett, husband ofBarbara Brett) for interviewing me on behalf ofthe National Archives Assembly. I would like to ask you a few questions since you worked here at the National Archives for 13.5 years (March 1998 to November 2001) in Records Management (NWML). Would you want to say what your favorite Federal job was during your 37 year Federal career?

[Assistant] I think teaching Federal employees Records Management and conducting briefings on Records Management at Federal agencies in order to share information and to contribute to people's work product. So, I would say the teaching aspect ofmy Job at NARA and the briefing program on Records Management for Federal agencies and their responses.

[User] You worked at several Federal agencies as did I. You started at HUD, then went to the Dept. ofCommerce, where you were the ITA Records Officer, from Commerce Dept. to NARA where you worked in NWML, Records Mancigement. Now, you are a Branch Chief in Records and Information Management at PMS (Financial Management Service) at the Dept. ofTreasury in Hyattsville, MD which you joined in November 2001. You are still in Records Management after all these years.

[Assistant] Yes, I am still in Records Management.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I would like to thank you (Charles Brett, husband ofBarbara Brett) for interviewing me on behalf ofthe National Archives Assembly. I would like to ask you a few questions since you worked here at the National Archives for 13.5 years (March 1998 to November 2001) in Records Management (NWML). Would you want to say what your favorite Federal job was during your 37 year Federal career?

[Assistant] I think teaching Federal employees Records Management and conducting briefings on Records Management at Federal agencies in order to share information and to contribute to people's work product. So, I would say the teaching aspect ofmy Job at NARA and the briefing program on Records Management for Federal agencies and their responses.

[User] You worked at several Federal agencies as did I. You started at HUD, then went to the Dept. ofCommerce, where you were the ITA Records Officer, from Commerce Dept. to NARA where you worked in NWML, Records Mancigement. Now, you are a Branch Chief in Records and Information Management at PMS (Financial Management Service) at the Dept. ofTreasury in Hyattsville, MD which you joined in November 2001. You are still in Records Management after all these years.

[Assistant] Yes, I am still in Records Management.

[User] What will you miss when you retire on February 29, 2008 after 37 years ofFederal service?

[Assistant] I will miss the interaction ofworking with people in offices to schedule their Federal records. Particularly, now, we have 50 major automated systems at PMS in Treasury. We only have about 30%- 35% ofthose systems scheduled for disposition with NARA. So, the legacy I am going to leave is finishing that project. That will be a major focus for PMS. Thank you very much for allowing me to interview you, Barbara.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You worked at several Federal agencies as did I. You started at HUD, then went to the Dept. ofCommerce, where you were the ITA Records Officer, from Commerce Dept. to NARA where you worked in NWML, Records Mancigement. Now, you are a Branch Chief in Records and Information Management at PMS (Financial Management Service) at the Dept. ofTreasury in Hyattsville, MD which you joined in November 2001. You are still in Records Management after all these years.

[Assistant] Yes, I am still in Records Management.

[User] What will you miss when you retire on February 29, 2008 after 37 years ofFederal service?

[Assistant] I will miss the interaction ofworking with people in offices to schedule their Federal records. Particularly, now, we have 50 major automated systems at PMS in Treasury. We only have about 30%- 35% ofthose systems scheduled for disposition with NARA. So, the legacy I am going to leave is finishing that project. That will be a major focus for PMS. Thank you very much for allowing me to interview you, Barbara.

[User] You are welcome.

[Assistant] It has been a very great honor for me to interview you on behalf ofNARA's Assembly. I think you have done a great honor to our country by your Federal service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What will you miss when you retire on February 29, 2008 after 37 years ofFederal service?

[Assistant] I will miss the interaction ofworking with people in offices to schedule their Federal records. Particularly, now, we have 50 major automated systems at PMS in Treasury. We only have about 30%- 35% ofthose systems scheduled for disposition with NARA. So, the legacy I am going to leave is finishing that project. That will be a major focus for PMS. Thank you very much for allowing me to interview you, Barbara.

[User] You are welcome.

[Assistant] It has been a very great honor for me to interview you on behalf ofNARA's Assembly. I think you have done a great honor to our country by your Federal service.

[User] Thank you. What I look forward to is February 29, 2008 when you and I do retire. As they say: "Grow old with me. The best is yet to be.".

[Assistant] I am with you, honey.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Is that unusual? I think it is.

[User] I think it is, but I didn't know that at the time.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] I don't know how many African languages are like that.

[Assistant] Well, so you really jumped ahead. So you, a friend said you will apply for the Peace Corps and you applied and you got in and then you had no, you had no training in this country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it is, but I didn't know that at the time.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] I don't know how many African languages are like that.

[Assistant] Well, so you really jumped ahead. So you, a friend said you will apply for the Peace Corps and you applied and you got in and then you had no, you had no training in this country?

[User] Yes. Well, we went to, again, we went to Oberlin, and then.

[Assistant] Oh, Oberlin was part of the training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The part of the training. Then we went to, uh.

[Assistant] Quebec.

[User] Quebec.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And, um, and that was really where half of our training was, and the second half was in in Bouaké in the Ivory Coast. And I use the term Ivory Coast just to make it easier. Okay. Um.

[Assistant] What did, what did your parents think about all of this? Were they okay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quebec.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And, um, and that was really where half of our training was, and the second half was in in Bouaké in the Ivory Coast. And I use the term Ivory Coast just to make it easier. Okay. Um.

[Assistant] What did, what did your parents think about all of this? Were they okay?

[User] Well, they cried, I know my mother cried at least when I got on the plane in southern Indiana, where I grew up in this little town. And the nearest airport was 30 miles away. And I get on this little plane and flew off and they said, I don't think we're ever going to see him again. They had not been outside the country except maybe stepped a foot in Mexico or Canada. My dad was a pharmacist. My mother helped run the store, raised three kids, you know, basically cooked three pies every morning for, for the, uh, for the lunch counter and, uh, and did all the books and hiring and everything for the store. So.

[Assistant] So this was a big deal, going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, and that was really where half of our training was, and the second half was in in Bouaké in the Ivory Coast. And I use the term Ivory Coast just to make it easier. Okay. Um.

[Assistant] What did, what did your parents think about all of this? Were they okay?

[User] Well, they cried, I know my mother cried at least when I got on the plane in southern Indiana, where I grew up in this little town. And the nearest airport was 30 miles away. And I get on this little plane and flew off and they said, I don't think we're ever going to see him again. They had not been outside the country except maybe stepped a foot in Mexico or Canada. My dad was a pharmacist. My mother helped run the store, raised three kids, you know, basically cooked three pies every morning for, for the, uh, for the lunch counter and, uh, and did all the books and hiring and everything for the store. So.

[Assistant] So this was a big deal, going.

[User] It was a big deal. Oh, going to, having gone to Georgetown was the first step in moving far away from Indiana.

[Assistant] Should never have gone east, right? That's what did it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they cried, I know my mother cried at least when I got on the plane in southern Indiana, where I grew up in this little town. And the nearest airport was 30 miles away. And I get on this little plane and flew off and they said, I don't think we're ever going to see him again. They had not been outside the country except maybe stepped a foot in Mexico or Canada. My dad was a pharmacist. My mother helped run the store, raised three kids, you know, basically cooked three pies every morning for, for the, uh, for the lunch counter and, uh, and did all the books and hiring and everything for the store. So.

[Assistant] So this was a big deal, going.

[User] It was a big deal. Oh, going to, having gone to Georgetown was the first step in moving far away from Indiana.

[Assistant] Should never have gone east, right? That's what did it.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I guess so. All right. So you got to, you got to in-country. And then where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is a new school. So they were all first year students, first year of English, and the second year they did first, I did first and second years. Um. And it was an intriguing situation. The, uh, in those days there were very few Ivorians who had the education to teach secondary school. So most of the teachers were French, many of them were old ex-colons, what we in other times would call crocodiles. Um. And many of them were, you know, had never, even though these countries were independent, had not lost their, their feelings about who was in charge.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So my principal was a guy who was a very smart-ass guy. He left his wife behind several posts back. He'd been in Africa most of his life. He, I'm sure, took well advantage of the female African staff around the school. And he also accused me of being a CIA agent right off the bat, just for, just for fun.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Just to put me down. So every time I'd go get my mail from his office, he would say, here's your mail from your bosses in Washington. And anyway, I tried real hard to be straight, straight arrow, and teach my classes. And the other teachers were mostly either older French people who were working in Africa or what's called French militaire. And French militaire were people doing their military service in lieu of being in the army. And they could teach in Africa for two years and fulfill their military service, which was a great idea. I wish we had that in the United States.

[Assistant] Well, ours was alternate military service as well, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my principal was a guy who was a very smart-ass guy. He left his wife behind several posts back. He'd been in Africa most of his life. He, I'm sure, took well advantage of the female African staff around the school. And he also accused me of being a CIA agent right off the bat, just for, just for fun.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Just to put me down. So every time I'd go get my mail from his office, he would say, here's your mail from your bosses in Washington. And anyway, I tried real hard to be straight, straight arrow, and teach my classes. And the other teachers were mostly either older French people who were working in Africa or what's called French militaire. And French militaire were people doing their military service in lieu of being in the army. And they could teach in Africa for two years and fulfill their military service, which was a great idea. I wish we had that in the United States.

[Assistant] Well, ours was alternate military service as well, right?

[User] Right. So, um. There were a couple of these militaire on the compound. Eventually there were other people who I got to know. There was only one Ivorian on the compound. And there were, two of the, two of the people I got to know best were two Marxists who came to teach at the school. They were very explicitly French Marxists, and they made it very well known. And he was Italian. I guess she was French. And later on, I'll tell you why they were more important to me. Um.

[Assistant] Well, it's interesting that the school was so heavily French and not Cote d'Ivoirian. And so your Peace Corps experience was French colonialists.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I find I have a report that I wrote at the end of the summer, I guess when I got back to school, and talked to all these students who were coming back. And, uh, something like 23 students had worked all summer. [recorder is moved] Um, how are we doing?

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Um. Maybe five of them, the classes didn't work for various reasons. I wrote a six page report which I, in French, which I sent to the. I did the six page report in English, which I sent to Peace Corps, and maybe a four page report in French, which I sent to the Ministry of Education in the Cote d'Ivoire. And said, you know, hopefully this is something that you might want to do as a matter of course in other schools. Um. And there were advantages and disadvantages. I think the education, the literacy programs, went better than health education for a variety of reasons, mostly related to the training and the equipment that the volunteers had. And the fact that the volunteers couldn't follow up if they did find a problem, a health problem. But in literacy, they could try to work things out.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But the real problem is at the end of the summer, who takes over the training, the literacy course?

[Assistant] Ah, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Maybe five of them, the classes didn't work for various reasons. I wrote a six page report which I, in French, which I sent to the. I did the six page report in English, which I sent to Peace Corps, and maybe a four page report in French, which I sent to the Ministry of Education in the Cote d'Ivoire. And said, you know, hopefully this is something that you might want to do as a matter of course in other schools. Um. And there were advantages and disadvantages. I think the education, the literacy programs, went better than health education for a variety of reasons, mostly related to the training and the equipment that the volunteers had. And the fact that the volunteers couldn't follow up if they did find a problem, a health problem. But in literacy, they could try to work things out.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But the real problem is at the end of the summer, who takes over the training, the literacy course?

[Assistant] Ah, that's right.

[User] So anyway, I think it went well. And if I had been there for a second summer, I would have done the same thing.

[Assistant] But it was good for the students themselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the real problem is at the end of the summer, who takes over the training, the literacy course?

[Assistant] Ah, that's right.

[User] So anyway, I think it went well. And if I had been there for a second summer, I would have done the same thing.

[Assistant] But it was good for the students themselves?

[User] Yes. And they, I mean, hopefully that's the big, that's the big positive is that they come back with the idea that they can do something for their villages as they go through school and afterwards they don't leave those villages behind.

[Assistant] Did you get any feedback that they, in fact, felt that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So anyway, I think it went well. And if I had been there for a second summer, I would have done the same thing.

[Assistant] But it was good for the students themselves?

[User] Yes. And they, I mean, hopefully that's the big, that's the big positive is that they come back with the idea that they can do something for their villages as they go through school and afterwards they don't leave those villages behind.

[Assistant] Did you get any feedback that they, in fact, felt that?

[User] Yes. I do. I have, they all wrote reports, which I still have copies of.

[Assistant] Oh, lovely. It was a great idea that you, you came up with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And they, I mean, hopefully that's the big, that's the big positive is that they come back with the idea that they can do something for their villages as they go through school and afterwards they don't leave those villages behind.

[Assistant] Did you get any feedback that they, in fact, felt that?

[User] Yes. I do. I have, they all wrote reports, which I still have copies of.

[Assistant] Oh, lovely. It was a great idea that you, you came up with that.

[User] Yeah, it seemed to fit and they liked it.

[Assistant] Before we leave and you went to a city, you said, afterwards, a bigger place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I do. I have, they all wrote reports, which I still have copies of.

[Assistant] Oh, lovely. It was a great idea that you, you came up with that.

[User] Yeah, it seemed to fit and they liked it.

[Assistant] Before we leave and you went to a city, you said, afterwards, a bigger place?

[User] No, I stayed there, but.

[Assistant] Oh, you stayed there? You just had a different job, is that in kind of the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, no, I first I went to, I took my travel. I took my leave and flew out to Nairobi and had adventures there. I just went by myself since nobody else wanted to go there. And I hitchhiked around East Africa for about, I suppose, three weeks and went from sleeping on a park bench in Nairobi when after I flew in to then going to the Peace Corps office there and checking in. And then I went down to Mombasa and I went down to the Tanzania, what was then Tanganyika, border.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I was going to go to an island there. And they said, well, that's off limits to Americans. You can't go there. So I had to turn around and hitchhike back. Went up to the northern part of Kenya, not far from Somalia actually. And then I got back to Nairobi, then went west hitchhiking into western Kenya, then down to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania. I had many adventures. One of them was I lost my, I left my camera in one of these little cars. Typically, you either had a big car filled with two Europeans or you had a small Volkswagen filled with six Asians. And we were leaving there and it was one of those cars with Asians that I left my camera in. And when I got back to Nairobi, on the way back, I went to the Peace Corps office and they said, somebody brought your camera back for you.

[Assistant] How wonderful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you did all of that by yourself as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was going to go to an island there. And they said, well, that's off limits to Americans. You can't go there. So I had to turn around and hitchhike back. Went up to the northern part of Kenya, not far from Somalia actually. And then I got back to Nairobi, then went west hitchhiking into western Kenya, then down to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania. I had many adventures. One of them was I lost my, I left my camera in one of these little cars. Typically, you either had a big car filled with two Europeans or you had a small Volkswagen filled with six Asians. And we were leaving there and it was one of those cars with Asians that I left my camera in. And when I got back to Nairobi, on the way back, I went to the Peace Corps office and they said, somebody brought your camera back for you.

[Assistant] How wonderful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you did all of that by yourself as well?

[User] Yeah. So, um, driving, hitchhiking west into Kenya, the sort of the big areas where the larger farms or plantations might be, with a white family. The man would come up behind some three Kenyan military trucks with soldiers in the back, sort of like a big pickup truck. And he started passing them. And each one he would pass and then swerve and then swerve out right in front of it, kicking up the gravel. And so I asked him why he was doing this. He says, I want to break their windscreens. And it's just an indication of the enmity of these former Kenyan, the white Kenyans who had basically been thrown out of power and were still really angry about it.

[Assistant] And contrast that to the French in Cote d'Ivoire.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you did all of that by yourself as well?

[User] Yeah. So, um, driving, hitchhiking west into Kenya, the sort of the big areas where the larger farms or plantations might be, with a white family. The man would come up behind some three Kenyan military trucks with soldiers in the back, sort of like a big pickup truck. And he started passing them. And each one he would pass and then swerve and then swerve out right in front of it, kicking up the gravel. And so I asked him why he was doing this. He says, I want to break their windscreens. And it's just an indication of the enmity of these former Kenyan, the white Kenyans who had basically been thrown out of power and were still really angry about it.

[Assistant] And contrast that to the French in Cote d'Ivoire.

[User] Well, they were pretty much the same. They didn't have land, though. They were more civil service oriented. Not nearly as much land. The land was mostly in East Africa.

[Assistant] How long did the French stay in those positions, do you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were pretty much the same. They didn't have land, though. They were more civil service oriented. Not nearly as much land. The land was mostly in East Africa.

[Assistant] How long did the French stay in those positions, do you know?

[User] They stayed until, um. The original president was sort of Houphouet-Boigny, who was very well known. He stayed for, I think, ten or 12 years before he died. He was, the French tried to set up sort of mini French African leaders who were sort of, who would follow along with the policies that the French had instituted. And they did this in, successfully in about three quarters of the French francophone countries of West Africa. And Houphouet-Boigny was one of these. His successor, Bedie, was similar. And then there was, Bedie was sort of kicked out of power and there became a military coup. And when that happened, the French became the enemy.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And they were mostly fled and their properties were taken over. That's gone back and forth since then.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about the, the town you were in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were mostly fled and their properties were taken over. That's gone back and forth since then.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about the, the town you were in.

[User] The town was about 20,000. It had a poor market. There wasn't much to buy, but there was a typical African market every day. They made pottery in the town, it's what it was known for, but it was also pretty crummy pottery.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] There wasn't, some tourists would stop there. They'd get off the train and they'd buy pottery. But nobody really trained these people in how to make better pottery. It was a, it was probably 50 percent Muslim and 50 percent either Christian or animist. Um. So it was a real mixed town. It wasn't one ethnic group or the other.

[Assistant] And people got along?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The town was about 20,000. It had a poor market. There wasn't much to buy, but there was a typical African market every day. They made pottery in the town, it's what it was known for, but it was also pretty crummy pottery.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] There wasn't, some tourists would stop there. They'd get off the train and they'd buy pottery. But nobody really trained these people in how to make better pottery. It was a, it was probably 50 percent Muslim and 50 percent either Christian or animist. Um. So it was a real mixed town. It wasn't one ethnic group or the other.

[Assistant] And people got along?

[User] There was no enmity that, I mean, there was no stuff going on that I was aware of. In those days, the federal government, the government of the country, was pretty much in control. And everybody still, just like when the French were there, they kind of obeyed the orders. Um. I didn't really, I don't think there was much religious. People were able to worship as they wanted. I think all of the, uh, the Ivorian leaders who came up. There was a suprefet in the town, and he was from the south. Almost all the people who were put into these positions of political leadership were from the Baoule tribe, which was the president's tribe. Um. Some of my colleagues were further north in the areas that were totally Muslim. And, and there may have been a few Muslims who were suprefets, but probably not very many.

[Assistant] And did you have electricity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The guy who was, who was tutoring me.

[Assistant] Whom you were paying?

[User] Who I was paying. So, uh, I guess we continued the classes. I guess, I can't remember. But anyway, there was kind of a love hate relationship.

[Assistant] Why was he so anti-American?

[User] A lot of French were in those days. This was their territory. What were Americans doing there anyway? I couldn't speak very good French. You know, teaching. There must be some nefarious reason we were there.

[Assistant] Wow. So, um, the second year you moved into town, you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Who I was paying. So, uh, I guess we continued the classes. I guess, I can't remember. But anyway, there was kind of a love hate relationship.

[Assistant] Why was he so anti-American?

[User] A lot of French were in those days. This was their territory. What were Americans doing there anyway? I couldn't speak very good French. You know, teaching. There must be some nefarious reason we were there.

[Assistant] Wow. So, um, the second year you moved into town, you said?

[User] Yes. I wanted to move into town so I could be more with the local population. And I did that. There was a new volunteer coming in who was going to be an agricultural volunteer guy, and so he was going to move in to me. And I found a house and found a, what they called a boy, to help clean and do a little cooking. And then I would drive up on my Mobylette to the school. And that went fine for the first semester and.

[Assistant] And I'm sorry, how far was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So that was from basically just before Christmas until, uh, I'd say April or May. Meanwhile, my students didn't know what happened to me. They came back from, and even my teachers and then my principal, they came back from holiday and I wasn't there. Peace Corps got in touch with them and this French Marxist woman started, took over my classes. And so she had the students write me letters in their very halting English, and it was very moving to get them. Um. And they would say things like, uh, in fact, one of them, uh, one of the students wrote a portrait of me, which they sent to the Peace Corps newsletter called The Tambour.

And there's a whole page and a half here about describing, this is by Kwasi Quadrole Jean-Baptiste, student of [inaudible], College Moderne of Katiola. Transmitted by Madame Kremiscoli, the Marxist teacher. And it starts: Every morning coming, his blond hair waving in the wind. Our teacher comes on his bike to the school. And it goes to this whole page and a half of a pretty, pretty correct description about how I would discipline people and sometimes forget to discipline them and how, in the end, he says, it's with great impatience that we wait your return to our school because we love you like little, like little brothers, and we know you love us like a big brother.

[Assistant] That's nice. Very nice. So it's great that you still have that.

[User] Yeah. And they also said, well, why did you go into sacred forest without the permission of the witch doctor? Which I had done. So I had a.

[Assistant] So what is the sacred forest?

[User] Well, it's where the, where the spirits are, the traditional spirits. So there was one little.

[Assistant] So that's why you got paralyzed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And they also said, well, why did you go into sacred forest without the permission of the witch doctor? Which I had done. So I had a.

[Assistant] So what is the sacred forest?

[User] Well, it's where the, where the spirits are, the traditional spirits. So there was one little.

[Assistant] So that's why you got paralyzed?

[User]
Yeah. From their point of view. So, um. There was one little restaurant in the town, and I didn't like to cook for myself. So I would go there and he might have chicken or field rat or whatever he might have. And so at one point he said, do you want to go to the sacred forest? And I said sure. So he took me out there and there was a grove of woods on a little hill. I can't remember exactly, but, um. He said, well, you know, the French wanted to build a road through here. And we said, no, we don't want you to do that. We want you to go around the grove of this forest. It's our sacred area. And the French said, no, we're going to come through here. So they, the way he described it, they came with their big bulldozers and their big machines, and the little people came out of the ground and they broke their machines. And so they couldn't go through the forest and tear it down and they didn't. They had to eventually go around.

So I learned the stories, a few stories about the sacred forests, and didn't think anything more of it. But apparently, either after I was paralyzed or even before, he, this guy, his name was Petit John that ran the restaurant, he let the word out that I'd been there. So that became the rationale for while I was paralyzed. And I can tell you 15 years later, when I was working for AID, a guy who was living in Abidjan said he had heard a story about a Peace Corps volunteer who had gone to the sacred forest and was paralyzed. I know that.

[Assistant] I know that guy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's where the, where the spirits are, the traditional spirits. So there was one little.

[Assistant] So that's why you got paralyzed?

[User]
Yeah. From their point of view. So, um. There was one little restaurant in the town, and I didn't like to cook for myself. So I would go there and he might have chicken or field rat or whatever he might have. And so at one point he said, do you want to go to the sacred forest? And I said sure. So he took me out there and there was a grove of woods on a little hill. I can't remember exactly, but, um. He said, well, you know, the French wanted to build a road through here. And we said, no, we don't want you to do that. We want you to go around the grove of this forest. It's our sacred area. And the French said, no, we're going to come through here. So they, the way he described it, they came with their big bulldozers and their big machines, and the little people came out of the ground and they broke their machines. And so they couldn't go through the forest and tear it down and they didn't. They had to eventually go around.

So I learned the stories, a few stories about the sacred forests, and didn't think anything more of it. But apparently, either after I was paralyzed or even before, he, this guy, his name was Petit John that ran the restaurant, he let the word out that I'd been there. So that became the rationale for while I was paralyzed. And I can tell you 15 years later, when I was working for AID, a guy who was living in Abidjan said he had heard a story about a Peace Corps volunteer who had gone to the sacred forest and was paralyzed. I know that.

[Assistant] I know that guy.

[User] Anyway, um, so my Peace Corps career was ended and, um. I, um.

[Assistant] How long did it take you to regain the ability to walk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, um, so my Peace Corps career was ended and, um. I, um.

[Assistant] How long did it take you to regain the ability to walk?

[User] Well, I got back on my feet. I went through the green Peace Corps green sheet and found a job starting, I think, in April in Philadelphia, doing a 100 percent diagnostic survey of a low-income housing area that was under federal, HUD would do a federal upgrade program, which they were doing in those days. So I won't go into great detail, but that was a very, that was [inaudible] Philly and Rizzo was the police chief and it was hot. It was 1968, the year of the Democratic convention in Chicago.

[Assistant] And you were working for the police or who were you?

[User] No, working for this firm Trans Century Corporation. But half of our staff were Howard University law students who were pretty hot about what was going on. And the other half were either former Peace Corps volunteers or ex-cons. So we had to find our own housing in this rundown area. And I ended up living with a former Mennonite volunteer from Vietnam and a black ex-con named Wimpy. And we had some exciting times and I learned a lot. And Wimpy wasn't totally rehabilitated, it turned out. So I learned a lot about how things go on. And then I went to the University of Chicago for grad school and did another year of physical therapy, and I was using canes or a cane. And then after that year in Chicago, I was able to throw away my cane and walk. And I was able to, I still never was able to run again or jump, but I could build up my strength enough so that I could carry babies on my back and hike down the Grand Canyon and do that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And what is the cause, is it a virus or what is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, working for this firm Trans Century Corporation. But half of our staff were Howard University law students who were pretty hot about what was going on. And the other half were either former Peace Corps volunteers or ex-cons. So we had to find our own housing in this rundown area. And I ended up living with a former Mennonite volunteer from Vietnam and a black ex-con named Wimpy. And we had some exciting times and I learned a lot. And Wimpy wasn't totally rehabilitated, it turned out. So I learned a lot about how things go on. And then I went to the University of Chicago for grad school and did another year of physical therapy, and I was using canes or a cane. And then after that year in Chicago, I was able to throw away my cane and walk. And I was able to, I still never was able to run again or jump, but I could build up my strength enough so that I could carry babies on my back and hike down the Grand Canyon and do that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And what is the cause, is it a virus or what is it?

[User] It's, it's sort of what's going on now. You hear about Guillain-Barre with the Zika virus. It's a, it's an autoimmune disease. It's a reaction by the white, the white blood cells are overreacting to some, uh, some attack on the system, on the nervous system. And they over, they overcompensate and they start destroying the nervous system.

[Assistant] But is it mosquito-borne?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Oh, it's not. It's just.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Oh, it's not. It's just.

[User] No. With Zika, it may be. But in those cases, most people, they would say in those days, it's your body is overreacting. It could be a cold, it could be a sinus issue. Nobody really knows. And when I was at Bethesda Naval, I found military people from all over the world who had this.

[Assistant] Oh, so.

[User] They picked it up in the Philippines. They picked it up in the United States.

[Assistant] So it's not that you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. With Zika, it may be. But in those cases, most people, they would say in those days, it's your body is overreacting. It could be a cold, it could be a sinus issue. Nobody really knows. And when I was at Bethesda Naval, I found military people from all over the world who had this.

[Assistant] Oh, so.

[User] They picked it up in the Philippines. They picked it up in the United States.

[Assistant] So it's not that you were.

[User] We have a friend whose son picked it up in Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Cote d'Ivoire, and no, it just, you happened to be there when that happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have a friend whose son picked it up in Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Cote d'Ivoire, and no, it just, you happened to be there when that happened.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well.

[User] So.

[Assistant] When you think back on your Peace Corps experience, what are, I guess you've talked about your fondest memories. What do you, what do you think your, your contribution was or what did you learn? Let me ask it both ways.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well.

[User] So.

[Assistant] When you think back on your Peace Corps experience, what are, I guess you've talked about your fondest memories. What do you, what do you think your, your contribution was or what did you learn? Let me ask it both ways.

[User] Well, as Peace Corps volunteers almost always said, we probably picked up more than we gave. You know, we, we, it was, for us it was very much a maturation process. And I met a whole bunch of friends that we're still, some of which I'm still in touch with, Peace Corps friends. Um. Ivorian friends have kind of disappeared because I left so early. And but, uh, you know, I think I was able to provide a good model. I don't know if people followed up on it with other TEFL teachers in the future. Um. I continue to get contacts with some of my students for a while, but that faded away eventually. But it was a, you basically get grassroots experience in development that you don't get from any other program. And two years is, even though I was only there for a little over a year and a half, it makes a difference. It's a lot better than the year program, which some people prefer to take.

[Assistant] And some people actually extended for a third year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as Peace Corps volunteers almost always said, we probably picked up more than we gave. You know, we, we, it was, for us it was very much a maturation process. And I met a whole bunch of friends that we're still, some of which I'm still in touch with, Peace Corps friends. Um. Ivorian friends have kind of disappeared because I left so early. And but, uh, you know, I think I was able to provide a good model. I don't know if people followed up on it with other TEFL teachers in the future. Um. I continue to get contacts with some of my students for a while, but that faded away eventually. But it was a, you basically get grassroots experience in development that you don't get from any other program. And two years is, even though I was only there for a little over a year and a half, it makes a difference. It's a lot better than the year program, which some people prefer to take.

[Assistant] And some people actually extended for a third year.

[User] Some do.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But Peace Corps is basically a program where you meet somebody who's in Peace Corps or was in Peace Corps, and there's an automatic bond. It's a, it's a cohort that is very wide and. And I coach new hires at AID. I've done this now for over ten years, and many of them, half of them are former Peace Corps volunteers. And that's, I know where they're coming from. They know a little bit where I'm coming from. And when you then go to work for AID, which I did for a career, you're no longer at the grassroots level, but at least you have an idea of how things work at the grassroots level that you can use when you're dealing at higher policy levels.

[Assistant] So there are three goals to Peace Corps that are always talked about. To provide technical assistance where requested. You talked about that. To promote better understanding of the U.S.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some do.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But Peace Corps is basically a program where you meet somebody who's in Peace Corps or was in Peace Corps, and there's an automatic bond. It's a, it's a cohort that is very wide and. And I coach new hires at AID. I've done this now for over ten years, and many of them, half of them are former Peace Corps volunteers. And that's, I know where they're coming from. They know a little bit where I'm coming from. And when you then go to work for AID, which I did for a career, you're no longer at the grassroots level, but at least you have an idea of how things work at the grassroots level that you can use when you're dealing at higher policy levels.

[Assistant] So there are three goals to Peace Corps that are always talked about. To provide technical assistance where requested. You talked about that. To promote better understanding of the U.S.

[User] We did that. We brought movies up. I remember, I see from my notes here, we had several films we would bring up and in show to the whole town and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And the woman saw her first white person, maybe.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But Peace Corps is basically a program where you meet somebody who's in Peace Corps or was in Peace Corps, and there's an automatic bond. It's a, it's a cohort that is very wide and. And I coach new hires at AID. I've done this now for over ten years, and many of them, half of them are former Peace Corps volunteers. And that's, I know where they're coming from. They know a little bit where I'm coming from. And when you then go to work for AID, which I did for a career, you're no longer at the grassroots level, but at least you have an idea of how things work at the grassroots level that you can use when you're dealing at higher policy levels.

[Assistant] So there are three goals to Peace Corps that are always talked about. To provide technical assistance where requested. You talked about that. To promote better understanding of the U.S.

[User] We did that. We brought movies up. I remember, I see from my notes here, we had several films we would bring up and in show to the whole town and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And the woman saw her first white person, maybe.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the third is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did that. We brought movies up. I remember, I see from my notes here, we had several films we would bring up and in show to the whole town and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] And the woman saw her first white person, maybe.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the third is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans.

[User] We've done a lot of that, my wife and I. When we were in AID, we were in both in Botswana and Liberia, both places we made, we got in touch with the Peace Corps director and we said, well, we're both here. At the point we had kids, one in Botswana and two in Liberia. And we said, well, I know people sometimes are thinking about early termination, but if they come to town, they can stay with us. We have set aside a guest room, we call it the ET room, the early termination room. And so they can relax. They can talk to either one of us about our Peace Corps experiences and about other people. And they don't have to be under any pressure. We're not reporting to the Peace Corps director. They can play with our kids, they can relax, do whatever they want. And so that worked out. And we've had, I think we've had probably in both countries, probably eight or ten people who did that for three or four weeks. And I think our success rate was about 50 percent.

[Assistant] Then they returned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the third is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans.

[User] We've done a lot of that, my wife and I. When we were in AID, we were in both in Botswana and Liberia, both places we made, we got in touch with the Peace Corps director and we said, well, we're both here. At the point we had kids, one in Botswana and two in Liberia. And we said, well, I know people sometimes are thinking about early termination, but if they come to town, they can stay with us. We have set aside a guest room, we call it the ET room, the early termination room. And so they can relax. They can talk to either one of us about our Peace Corps experiences and about other people. And they don't have to be under any pressure. We're not reporting to the Peace Corps director. They can play with our kids, they can relax, do whatever they want. And so that worked out. And we've had, I think we've had probably in both countries, probably eight or ten people who did that for three or four weeks. And I think our success rate was about 50 percent.

[Assistant] Then they returned?

[User] About 50 percent went back to their towns and villages and 50 percent terminated. But we met a lot of Peace Corps volunteers. We just went out to Hawaii where we saw one of our health volunteers we got to know in Liberia, who's now at the University of Hawaii School of Public Health, and spent two nights with her. So we have a French, a whole group of people we've gotten to know and we've continued those contacts with, when we're overseas with AID.

[Assistant] Well, it's interesting, you talk about Peace Corps people now. Can you reflect? Because you've really seen them over the last, I guess it's 40 years now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We've done a lot of that, my wife and I. When we were in AID, we were in both in Botswana and Liberia, both places we made, we got in touch with the Peace Corps director and we said, well, we're both here. At the point we had kids, one in Botswana and two in Liberia. And we said, well, I know people sometimes are thinking about early termination, but if they come to town, they can stay with us. We have set aside a guest room, we call it the ET room, the early termination room. And so they can relax. They can talk to either one of us about our Peace Corps experiences and about other people. And they don't have to be under any pressure. We're not reporting to the Peace Corps director. They can play with our kids, they can relax, do whatever they want. And so that worked out. And we've had, I think we've had probably in both countries, probably eight or ten people who did that for three or four weeks. And I think our success rate was about 50 percent.

[Assistant] Then they returned?

[User] About 50 percent went back to their towns and villages and 50 percent terminated. But we met a lot of Peace Corps volunteers. We just went out to Hawaii where we saw one of our health volunteers we got to know in Liberia, who's now at the University of Hawaii School of Public Health, and spent two nights with her. So we have a French, a whole group of people we've gotten to know and we've continued those contacts with, when we're overseas with AID.

[Assistant] Well, it's interesting, you talk about Peace Corps people now. Can you reflect? Because you've really seen them over the last, I guess it's 40 years now.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Fifty years, getting close to 50 years. Do you think the experience that volunteer, their experience now is very different from ours in the sixties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had our 30th reunion. We got the Peace Corps director to come give the keynote address.

[Assistant] Excellent.

[User] For our, for our returned returnees and people who came for reunion. So we try to. And she walked in and she heard what was going on. She said, well, you've got your own little domestic Peace Corps, don't you? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. A single church. So the whole idea of continuing this volunteer idea, we work, Nancy and I work pretty hard on it.

[Assistant] Well, it's excellent. Is there anything else you want to? Any other thought you want to say? This is your interview.

[User] Um. I think it's, uh, it's great that you're doing this. Um. I'm sure that, uh, I'm trying to think of anything else. I mean, I remember going through some of these letters that my mother always saved. Uh. It was pretty tough. I mean, we really didn't know much what was going on. We didn't know what was going to happen when we get out of country.

[Assistant] We didn't have a cell phone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For our, for our returned returnees and people who came for reunion. So we try to. And she walked in and she heard what was going on. She said, well, you've got your own little domestic Peace Corps, don't you? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. A single church. So the whole idea of continuing this volunteer idea, we work, Nancy and I work pretty hard on it.

[Assistant] Well, it's excellent. Is there anything else you want to? Any other thought you want to say? This is your interview.

[User] Um. I think it's, uh, it's great that you're doing this. Um. I'm sure that, uh, I'm trying to think of anything else. I mean, I remember going through some of these letters that my mother always saved. Uh. It was pretty tough. I mean, we really didn't know much what was going on. We didn't know what was going to happen when we get out of country.

[Assistant] We didn't have a cell phone.

[User] By ourselves. Didn't have much contact. I ran into a sheep on my Mobylette and wrecked my Mobylette and skinned myself up, and I'm not sure how I took care of it. Um.

[Assistant] Well, let me just say that you can also, or I can do it for you, upload materials. Because the Kennedy Library also does that. And one of the people that I interviewed had some materials he had written and submitted that as well. So when you go through it, you can still do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. I think it's, uh, it's great that you're doing this. Um. I'm sure that, uh, I'm trying to think of anything else. I mean, I remember going through some of these letters that my mother always saved. Uh. It was pretty tough. I mean, we really didn't know much what was going on. We didn't know what was going to happen when we get out of country.

[Assistant] We didn't have a cell phone.

[User] By ourselves. Didn't have much contact. I ran into a sheep on my Mobylette and wrecked my Mobylette and skinned myself up, and I'm not sure how I took care of it. Um.

[Assistant] Well, let me just say that you can also, or I can do it for you, upload materials. Because the Kennedy Library also does that. And one of the people that I interviewed had some materials he had written and submitted that as well. So when you go through it, you can still do that.

[User] All right. I'll look at this.

[Assistant] At a later point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By ourselves. Didn't have much contact. I ran into a sheep on my Mobylette and wrecked my Mobylette and skinned myself up, and I'm not sure how I took care of it. Um.

[Assistant] Well, let me just say that you can also, or I can do it for you, upload materials. Because the Kennedy Library also does that. And one of the people that I interviewed had some materials he had written and submitted that as well. So when you go through it, you can still do that.

[User] All right. I'll look at this.

[Assistant] At a later point.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much, John.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right. I'll look at this.

[Assistant] At a later point.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much, John.

[User] Well, thank you for doing this.

[Assistant] It's a great interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's really fun.

[Assistant] Good experience.

[User] Yeah. By the way, it turned out that it's, uh, the Guillain- Barre. I have trouble getting around now, but it's not because of Guillain-Barre. It turns out when 20 years later, when I was about ready to. I had been at AID, I was AID director. I started feeling weak again. It was about the time they were, I was getting retired, and I came back and eventually went to Hopkins and they said, well, when did you have polio?

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I vaguely remembered something about when I was a toddler. I had to, my parents took me to Indianapolis to a hospital, and I stayed there for a couple of weeks and my mother just said I just cried and cried and cried and cried, leaving the little kid there. So anyway, I said, what did they say when they dismissed me? And they said, well, they weren't sure it was a real case and don't let him run around too much. As a toddler, that didn't mean anything. So I thought I was a normal kid, played basketball, ran track, all of that. But when I went to Hopkins, he said, well, the weakness you're having in your nervous system now, this is probably now about 20 years ago again, is because part of the nervous, the nervous system that is being inflamed and keeping the muscles from activating is the part that's affected by polio and not by Guillain-Barré, which is another part of the nervous system. So that you are, you have post- polio syndrome rather than any sort of secondary effects from Guillain-Barré.

[Assistant] Wow. Well, you did well throughout your life, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. By the way, it turned out that it's, uh, the Guillain- Barre. I have trouble getting around now, but it's not because of Guillain-Barre. It turns out when 20 years later, when I was about ready to. I had been at AID, I was AID director. I started feeling weak again. It was about the time they were, I was getting retired, and I came back and eventually went to Hopkins and they said, well, when did you have polio?

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I vaguely remembered something about when I was a toddler. I had to, my parents took me to Indianapolis to a hospital, and I stayed there for a couple of weeks and my mother just said I just cried and cried and cried and cried, leaving the little kid there. So anyway, I said, what did they say when they dismissed me? And they said, well, they weren't sure it was a real case and don't let him run around too much. As a toddler, that didn't mean anything. So I thought I was a normal kid, played basketball, ran track, all of that. But when I went to Hopkins, he said, well, the weakness you're having in your nervous system now, this is probably now about 20 years ago again, is because part of the nervous, the nervous system that is being inflamed and keeping the muscles from activating is the part that's affected by polio and not by Guillain-Barré, which is another part of the nervous system. So that you are, you have post- polio syndrome rather than any sort of secondary effects from Guillain-Barré.

[Assistant] Wow. Well, you did well throughout your life, though.

[User] And I'll mention one other thing.

[Assistant] Didn't affect you for most of your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'll mention one other thing.

[Assistant] Didn't affect you for most of your life.

[User] There was a Peace Corps reunion, maybe it was last year? A big one.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And they had a speaker from California who's a congressman.

[Assistant] Yes. Um, I forgot his name. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a Peace Corps reunion, maybe it was last year? A big one.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And they had a speaker from California who's a congressman.

[Assistant] Yes. Um, I forgot his name. Yes.

[User] And he also spoke at the last Guillain-Barré group organization meeting because he had a daughter who went to Peace Corps in, somewhere in Central America.

[Assistant] And he talked about that when I heard him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they had a speaker from California who's a congressman.

[Assistant] Yes. Um, I forgot his name. Yes.

[User] And he also spoke at the last Guillain-Barré group organization meeting because he had a daughter who went to Peace Corps in, somewhere in Central America.

[Assistant] And he talked about that when I heard him.

[User] And contracted Guillain-Barré.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And contracted Guillain-Barré.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right.

[User] And then a second daughter who went to Peru and contracted Guillain-Barré. Both of his daughters ended up having the same problem I did. I never knew there was anybody else in Peace Corps history who had that. And he has had two of them in his own family.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Well, we'll end. Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Let me start by asking you, why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] Um, to be perfectly honest, I joined the Peace Corps to strengthen my Spanish skills and to gain international experience. I had recently graduated from grad school in urban and regional planning, and during my grad school experience, I had an internship in China, which interested me in international work. And one of my professors in the urban and regional planning program at Portland State University was also a returned Peace Corps volunteer, and she talked to me about her experience because she went also after she got her master's in planning and, um. And it just opened that door for me. And so that's what I applied to do.

[Assistant] So you applied.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, to be perfectly honest, I joined the Peace Corps to strengthen my Spanish skills and to gain international experience. I had recently graduated from grad school in urban and regional planning, and during my grad school experience, I had an internship in China, which interested me in international work. And one of my professors in the urban and regional planning program at Portland State University was also a returned Peace Corps volunteer, and she talked to me about her experience because she went also after she got her master's in planning and, um. And it just opened that door for me. And so that's what I applied to do.

[Assistant] So you applied.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in Springfield, Illinois.

[Assistant] Did you have much orientation to the wider world, or was it all Illinois? Did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in Springfield, Illinois.

[Assistant] Did you have much orientation to the wider world, or was it all Illinois? Did you?

[User] Um, no, yeah, we had a pretty wide orientation. My grandfather, my mom was from Springfield, and so she and my dad moved back there when she got pregnant with my sister, and her family was there. So we were really close with her family. My grandfather was from Florida, and so we went to Florida frequently when I was a kid. And my grandmother was from Wisconsin, so we went to Wisconsin. I grew up showing horses. Um, my grandfather was a doctor, too, so my mom had a college education. She actually went to George W, um, George Washington, and, uh. So, yeah, I had a, I think in fourth grade, we had a student teacher who was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And so I think that was the first time I heard about it.

[Assistant] And you mentioned you went to grad school. Where did you go to grad school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in Springfield, Illinois.

[Assistant] Did you have much orientation to the wider world, or was it all Illinois? Did you?

[User] Um, no, yeah, we had a pretty wide orientation. My grandfather, my mom was from Springfield, and so she and my dad moved back there when she got pregnant with my sister, and her family was there. So we were really close with her family. My grandfather was from Florida, and so we went to Florida frequently when I was a kid. And my grandmother was from Wisconsin, so we went to Wisconsin. I grew up showing horses. Um, my grandfather was a doctor, too, so my mom had a college education. She actually went to George W, um, George Washington, and, uh. So, yeah, I had a, I think in fourth grade, we had a student teacher who was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And so I think that was the first time I heard about it.

[Assistant] And you mentioned you went to grad school. Where did you go to grad school?

[User] Portland State University in Oregon.

[Assistant] So how did you end up in Portland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, no, yeah, we had a pretty wide orientation. My grandfather, my mom was from Springfield, and so she and my dad moved back there when she got pregnant with my sister, and her family was there. So we were really close with her family. My grandfather was from Florida, and so we went to Florida frequently when I was a kid. And my grandmother was from Wisconsin, so we went to Wisconsin. I grew up showing horses. Um, my grandfather was a doctor, too, so my mom had a college education. She actually went to George W, um, George Washington, and, uh. So, yeah, I had a, I think in fourth grade, we had a student teacher who was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And so I think that was the first time I heard about it.

[Assistant] And you mentioned you went to grad school. Where did you go to grad school?

[User] Portland State University in Oregon.

[Assistant] So how did you end up in Portland?

[User] I went to, I finished my undergrad degree at Oregon State University in Corvallis and then stayed there basically after college.

[Assistant] Okay, great. So you applied while, were you still in grad school when you applied for Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to, I finished my undergrad degree at Oregon State University in Corvallis and then stayed there basically after college.

[Assistant] Okay, great. So you applied while, were you still in grad school when you applied for Peace Corps?

[User] No, I was out of school. Actually what happened was my, I had a job, and the job, I was fired from the job, and I had a relationship that was a, I was in that ended the same week. And the first thing I thought to myself was that I could apply to the Peace Corps. And so I did.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that was in 2010.

[Assistant] And how long did that take to get into the Peace Corps then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was out of school. Actually what happened was my, I had a job, and the job, I was fired from the job, and I had a relationship that was a, I was in that ended the same week. And the first thing I thought to myself was that I could apply to the Peace Corps. And so I did.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that was in 2010.

[Assistant] And how long did that take to get into the Peace Corps then?

[User] Almost two years.

[Assistant] Two years. Talk a little bit about the process. What?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Almost two years.

[Assistant] Two years. Talk a little bit about the process. What?

[User] Um, well, they still were mostly operating off of a paper application at the time, or it was a combination of paper and electronic, even in 2010. And so that just took a long time. I remember, I think I actually turned some forms into PDF fillable forms because they weren't fillable. Uh, and I thought that was weird. Um, and then, uh, because I, my relationship ended, you know, life changes. I was going to a therapist, and I included that in my application materials, the health review form, and it was flagged. And because of one word that my therapist wrote down that I was dealing with ongoing family issues, the Peace Corps medical officers decided that I needed to be on a six month hold. Uh, even though the, my therapist wrote a letter saying that I was a, I was totally stable. I wasn't showing any signs of mental illness, that it was, you know, talk therapy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and she thought I'd make a great volunteer, all of these things, and, yeah, they still put me on a six month hold.

[Assistant] Well, that's a shorter hold than some other people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, well, they still were mostly operating off of a paper application at the time, or it was a combination of paper and electronic, even in 2010. And so that just took a long time. I remember, I think I actually turned some forms into PDF fillable forms because they weren't fillable. Uh, and I thought that was weird. Um, and then, uh, because I, my relationship ended, you know, life changes. I was going to a therapist, and I included that in my application materials, the health review form, and it was flagged. And because of one word that my therapist wrote down that I was dealing with ongoing family issues, the Peace Corps medical officers decided that I needed to be on a six month hold. Uh, even though the, my therapist wrote a letter saying that I was a, I was totally stable. I wasn't showing any signs of mental illness, that it was, you know, talk therapy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and she thought I'd make a great volunteer, all of these things, and, yeah, they still put me on a six month hold.

[Assistant] Well, that's a shorter hold than some other people.

[User] It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] And what did you do while you were on hold? Did you have a job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and she thought I'd make a great volunteer, all of these things, and, yeah, they still put me on a six month hold.

[Assistant] Well, that's a shorter hold than some other people.

[User] It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] And what did you do while you were on hold? Did you have a job?

[User] Yeah, I was temping mostly.

[Assistant] Okay. So then they said, all right, you can become a volunteer. Was Mexico the, did you select Mexico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] And what did you do while you were on hold? Did you have a job?

[User] Yeah, I was temping mostly.

[Assistant] Okay. So then they said, all right, you can become a volunteer. Was Mexico the, did you select Mexico?

[User] I selected Latin America, the region, because I.

[Assistant] You wanted to learn Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was temping mostly.

[Assistant] Okay. So then they said, all right, you can become a volunteer. Was Mexico the, did you select Mexico?

[User] I selected Latin America, the region, because I.

[Assistant] You wanted to learn Spanish.

[User]
Yeah. And I had a background in Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school and college. Um, and then I started, you know, because I had an initial interview and she said to strengthen the Spanish skills and I had to take a CLEP test to prove that I still had the skills because my last class had been so long before. I passed the test. And so I just started practicing Spanish just to strengthen those skills. And they offered me somewhere in Latin America, they didn't say where, and sub-Saharan Africa. And really tried to push me to the sub-Saharan Africa. But I'm queer and I was not interested in trying to be super closeted.

I was 30 years old, and, um, and I'd been practicing Spanish and I passed the test, so I said, no, thank you. You can send me to somewhere in Latin America or I'm not going. I had also been an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, and so. I was committed to gaining the experience, but especially once I got there. But I was also, after almost two years by that point, and having a master's degree. I was like, I'm a very highly qualified candidate. If you don't want me, I'll find a job somewhere else. Thank you very much.

[Assistant] So they then offered you Mexico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I selected Latin America, the region, because I.

[Assistant] You wanted to learn Spanish.

[User]
Yeah. And I had a background in Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school and college. Um, and then I started, you know, because I had an initial interview and she said to strengthen the Spanish skills and I had to take a CLEP test to prove that I still had the skills because my last class had been so long before. I passed the test. And so I just started practicing Spanish just to strengthen those skills. And they offered me somewhere in Latin America, they didn't say where, and sub-Saharan Africa. And really tried to push me to the sub-Saharan Africa. But I'm queer and I was not interested in trying to be super closeted.

I was 30 years old, and, um, and I'd been practicing Spanish and I passed the test, so I said, no, thank you. You can send me to somewhere in Latin America or I'm not going. I had also been an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, and so. I was committed to gaining the experience, but especially once I got there. But I was also, after almost two years by that point, and having a master's degree. I was like, I'm a very highly qualified candidate. If you don't want me, I'll find a job somewhere else. Thank you very much.

[Assistant] So they then offered you Mexico?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And I guess by 2010, all of the training was in country, was, I should ask that. Was all of the country, all the training in country or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. And I had a background in Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school and college. Um, and then I started, you know, because I had an initial interview and she said to strengthen the Spanish skills and I had to take a CLEP test to prove that I still had the skills because my last class had been so long before. I passed the test. And so I just started practicing Spanish just to strengthen those skills. And they offered me somewhere in Latin America, they didn't say where, and sub-Saharan Africa. And really tried to push me to the sub-Saharan Africa. But I'm queer and I was not interested in trying to be super closeted.

I was 30 years old, and, um, and I'd been practicing Spanish and I passed the test, so I said, no, thank you. You can send me to somewhere in Latin America or I'm not going. I had also been an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, and so. I was committed to gaining the experience, but especially once I got there. But I was also, after almost two years by that point, and having a master's degree. I was like, I'm a very highly qualified candidate. If you don't want me, I'll find a job somewhere else. Thank you very much.

[Assistant] So they then offered you Mexico?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And I guess by 2010, all of the training was in country, was, I should ask that. Was all of the country, all the training in country or?

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Okay. So talk a little bit about, um, the training you went through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And I guess by 2010, all of the training was in country, was, I should ask that. Was all of the country, all the training in country or?

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Okay. So talk a little bit about, um, the training you went through.

[User]
Uh, it was, the training was in Queretaro, Mexico, at the um, office, Peace Corps. For the most part, it was classroom based. Um, so we were mostly working with relatively formalized eco clubs or youth groups, um, or trying to build what are called ecotécnicas, like wood burning stoves that direct the smoke out of the house or whatever. Um, I think Peace Corps Mexico is still feeling, figuring things out at that point. So we went up to the mountains for two weeks and spent a whole week building a cistern, learning how to build a cistern. I don't think any of us built a cistern during our service. It would have been much more useful to learn classroom management skills, um, which we never learned. Uh. But, you know, there's a lot of, 120 hours or 135 hours of Spanish classes. Um, learned a lot about the history and culture of Mexico. I felt very well prepared to live and work in Mexican society, Mexican culture after those three months. Um.

The like figuring out a ways of team building amongst the volunteers? Not so much. I don't, I'm not in contact with any of my, really, returned volunteers from my group. A couple, but really sporadically. Um. And part of that has to do with, um, the fact that I'm queer and had a very homophobic and humiliating experience during the sex ed portion when I asked for dental dams and the doctor just said no, you can make one out of Saran wrap. And then another volunteer echoed that. And then after that class was over, another volunteer came up to me and said that she could tell how upset I was and that she was an ally, which to me was like.

[Assistant] So this all happened in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, in training. And so I was like, well, if you were an ally, you would have said something and stood up for me, but thanks anyway. So that didn't really engender me to my, um, cohort.

[Assistant] How big of a group was it?

[User] Twenty.

[Assistant] Twenty of you. And what, what was the purpose of the eco program, of the environmental education program basically?

[User] Basically to increase the environmental understanding and awareness of the Mexican population.

[Assistant] So this was geared to youth or adults or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty.

[Assistant] Twenty of you. And what, what was the purpose of the eco program, of the environmental education program basically?

[User] Basically to increase the environmental understanding and awareness of the Mexican population.

[Assistant] So this was geared to youth or adults or?

[User] It depended. Once we got to site, it really depended on each different site. Some people were working on like perma, perma farming, permaculture. Other people worked on like signage in a national forest, national park. A lot of different range of things.

[Assistant] And had Mexico requested this program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Basically to increase the environmental understanding and awareness of the Mexican population.

[Assistant] So this was geared to youth or adults or?

[User] It depended. Once we got to site, it really depended on each different site. Some people were working on like perma, perma farming, permaculture. Other people worked on like signage in a national forest, national park. A lot of different range of things.

[Assistant] And had Mexico requested this program?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, we, um, the Peace Corps doesn't have a bilateral agreement with Mexico still. And so we only go to places where the Mexican government wants us to go, assigns volunteers. There's a collaborative process where they decide the sites together with Mexican agencies. So basically it's the Mexican EPA, SEMARNAT, and, uh, and like the Mexican Forest Service, all of those kinds of things. And then the National Science Foundation for the most, for the, um, technology transfer program that is now really teaching English for STEM.

[Assistant] Hmm. So you went through the training and it was, you said, a three months training program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It depended. Once we got to site, it really depended on each different site. Some people were working on like perma, perma farming, permaculture. Other people worked on like signage in a national forest, national park. A lot of different range of things.

[Assistant] And had Mexico requested this program?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, we, um, the Peace Corps doesn't have a bilateral agreement with Mexico still. And so we only go to places where the Mexican government wants us to go, assigns volunteers. There's a collaborative process where they decide the sites together with Mexican agencies. So basically it's the Mexican EPA, SEMARNAT, and, uh, and like the Mexican Forest Service, all of those kinds of things. And then the National Science Foundation for the most, for the, um, technology transfer program that is now really teaching English for STEM.

[Assistant] Hmm. So you went through the training and it was, you said, a three months training program.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Three months of language and the environmental. Did you move to the community in which you were going to be working as part of this training, or was it all in this training center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, we, um, the Peace Corps doesn't have a bilateral agreement with Mexico still. And so we only go to places where the Mexican government wants us to go, assigns volunteers. There's a collaborative process where they decide the sites together with Mexican agencies. So basically it's the Mexican EPA, SEMARNAT, and, uh, and like the Mexican Forest Service, all of those kinds of things. And then the National Science Foundation for the most, for the, um, technology transfer program that is now really teaching English for STEM.

[Assistant] Hmm. So you went through the training and it was, you said, a three months training program.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Three months of language and the environmental. Did you move to the community in which you were going to be working as part of this training, or was it all in this training center?

[User] It was mostly in the training center. I think we went to site for a week just to meet people. And if there was a volunteer currently there to interact with them, get sort of a transfer of knowledge. Meetings and things like that.

[Assistant] So training past and where were you then assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Three months of language and the environmental. Did you move to the community in which you were going to be working as part of this training, or was it all in this training center?

[User] It was mostly in the training center. I think we went to site for a week just to meet people. And if there was a volunteer currently there to interact with them, get sort of a transfer of knowledge. Meetings and things like that.

[Assistant] So training past and where were you then assigned?

[User] I was assigned to the Bosque de la Primavera. Out, uh, right outside of Guadalajara. And to, well, to the management agency.

[Assistant] What management agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was mostly in the training center. I think we went to site for a week just to meet people. And if there was a volunteer currently there to interact with them, get sort of a transfer of knowledge. Meetings and things like that.

[Assistant] So training past and where were you then assigned?

[User] I was assigned to the Bosque de la Primavera. Out, uh, right outside of Guadalajara. And to, well, to the management agency.

[Assistant] What management agency?

[User] Of the Bosque de la Primavera. It's a natural protected area.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. And what is, what, it's like a national park? Is that it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was assigned to the Bosque de la Primavera. Out, uh, right outside of Guadalajara. And to, well, to the management agency.

[Assistant] What management agency?

[User] Of the Bosque de la Primavera. It's a natural protected area.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. And what is, what, it's like a national park? Is that it?

[User] Um, more like a natural reserve. And the idea, they try to keep people out. And the idea is because it's delicate, has really delicate soils, a lot of endemic species that are found nowhere else that are probably going to be extinct soon. Guadalajara is growing around it. It's going to be a park. It's going to be like, yeah, soon.

[Assistant] So what was your role or what was the intended role of you in that park?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of the Bosque de la Primavera. It's a natural protected area.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. And what is, what, it's like a national park? Is that it?

[User] Um, more like a natural reserve. And the idea, they try to keep people out. And the idea is because it's delicate, has really delicate soils, a lot of endemic species that are found nowhere else that are probably going to be extinct soon. Guadalajara is growing around it. It's going to be a park. It's going to be like, yeah, soon.

[Assistant] So what was your role or what was the intended role of you in that park?

[User] I worked with the local community that was at the main public entrance to the Bosque, the town of La Primavera, and I lived with a family there. And I mostly, for the first year, conducted a weekly eco club. And then I tried to work on various projects that the management agency was working on, because most Peace Corps volunteers develop, like live and work and don't leave their site a lot, where they live. And my situation was much different, where I had to leave where I lived every day and go into the, into the city and to the office. So I had like a 9:00 to 5:00 job for the most part. So, and I was trying to integrate into both. But, you know, you have to sleep sometime. And I was exhausted and just, it was a lot. I mean, it's an emotional toll. Um, so I just decided to integrate into the office because I was required to go there by my counterpart, um, every day. So.

[Assistant] So, um, so I missed. So where were you actually living, in Guadalajara?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked with the local community that was at the main public entrance to the Bosque, the town of La Primavera, and I lived with a family there. And I mostly, for the first year, conducted a weekly eco club. And then I tried to work on various projects that the management agency was working on, because most Peace Corps volunteers develop, like live and work and don't leave their site a lot, where they live. And my situation was much different, where I had to leave where I lived every day and go into the, into the city and to the office. So I had like a 9:00 to 5:00 job for the most part. So, and I was trying to integrate into both. But, you know, you have to sleep sometime. And I was exhausted and just, it was a lot. I mean, it's an emotional toll. Um, so I just decided to integrate into the office because I was required to go there by my counterpart, um, every day. So.

[Assistant] So, um, so I missed. So where were you actually living, in Guadalajara?

[User] In La Primavera. For the first year I lived in the town of La Primavera with a mom who had, her kid was in the eco club. And so the volunteer before me set that up. But after about a year in I started understanding Spanish more and understanding the town dynamics. I was living in a very contested place with people who had a long standing dispute, and it was really interfering with my ability to do anything in the town. So I moved into the city, into Guadalajara.

[Assistant] What was the, what was the problem there?

[User] It was a, it was an inner familial conflict over the house. And I was in the middle of it, basically.

[Assistant] So then you moved into an apartment by yourself or?