[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just think about it, 10,000 miles out from the Moon, the Earth is as big a gravitational attraction as the Moon is. That's where the sphere of equal potential is. Makes a big difference.

[Assistant] Very big difference.

[User] Good question. Have you got any more?

[Assistant] No, that's all I had.

[User] Okay. That's all right.

[Assistant] Following from Kevin's technical, I think I want to ask more about the people. When you were on some of the long missions, whether it be Skylab or Apollo and you're in mission control and there's a lot of tension going on, how did you all deal with the tension and stress? How did you break that up when you were in mission control? Or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. That's all right.

[Assistant] Following from Kevin's technical, I think I want to ask more about the people. When you were on some of the long missions, whether it be Skylab or Apollo and you're in mission control and there's a lot of tension going on, how did you all deal with the tension and stress? How did you break that up when you were in mission control? Or did you?

[User] You know, in large part, the actual missions were not as stressful as the simulations.

[Assistant] Really.

[User] No, the simulations, except for some of the things we've talked about where you had the multiple failure scenario, the simulations were always multiple failure scenarios. I remember the first sim I ran as a flight director, I don't think the simulation people intended it to happen, but I lost it. I mean, I absolutely got to where I couldn't keep track of all the stuff and all that was left for me to do was get down in under the console and laugh. The missions were never that hard.

[Assistant] Because of all the training you'd done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, in large part, the actual missions were not as stressful as the simulations.

[Assistant] Really.

[User] No, the simulations, except for some of the things we've talked about where you had the multiple failure scenario, the simulations were always multiple failure scenarios. I remember the first sim I ran as a flight director, I don't think the simulation people intended it to happen, but I lost it. I mean, I absolutely got to where I couldn't keep track of all the stuff and all that was left for me to do was get down in under the console and laugh. The missions were never that hard.

[Assistant] Because of all the training you'd done?

[User] Well, plus we'd already been stressed until we were almost stress non-responsive. I mean, a day of launch aborts, I mean, you were a zombie for a little while until finally a day of launch aborts was a day of launch aborts and you checked it off, I've done this, and you go on to something else.\n\n It was a sense of the level of competence and comfort with who we were and what we were doing. No, I don't think we did stress very much in real time. We probably had a week or so after each flight where we went through a low, but in a week we had picked up whatever was going to be next and were reengaged. That was like a dig-out process. I can remember some of that, but it was like an awareness of, you know, "I don't really feel very good about this. Wonder what the guys are doing at work." [Laughter] And had to go back and do it.

[Assistant] I have a couple more questions. Kind of along that same line, if you could just characterize or just talk about some of the guys that you worked with at mission control, maybe somebody that when you look back over it, you think, he was the most comical, or just funny incidents that you might have remembered from your time in mission control.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yes, there was some of that kind of stuff. I always had a problem with the surgeons. The surgeons were the most parochial of all the scientists. They had to have their meals on their schedule and the stool samples and the urine samples and the blood samples. It just drove us nuts with their lack of flexibility. So I'm on the console and whoever the Network [Controller] is has detected a huge explosion on the sun. I've got this huge ball of gas coming off the sun from this explosion, and they want to interrupt the Apollo telescope map and get some data on this explosion. The problem is, it's lunchtime and the doctor, he's immovable. I said, "Doctor, I want you to listen to me. I have a technical input for you." I said, "All this food you guys have got up there is a bunch of stuff. We don't have to do all that, because everybody knows that the perfect meal is the baloney sandwich. And we're going to go get that sun data," and we did. We had lunch after and that was no big deal.\n\n The next day when I came to work, there was this baloney sandwich, it must have been that long and that wide and about this much baloney and stuff on my console [Shaffer gestures]. [Laughter] So I heard about a lot about baloney sandwiches after that from the doctors and the other guys.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like there were ways to break up mission control.

[User] Yes, there was always a little of that going on, yes.

[Assistant] That made for a lot of fun, though.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] One last question. This is more of a thought-provoking question just because you've been so involved with NASA for so many of the programs, not to mention the operational side, but also the managerial side. What do you feel is the best future for NASA? Where should NASA go? Should we pursue the space stations or should we pursue lunar bases or should we forge onward?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] One last question. This is more of a thought-provoking question just because you've been so involved with NASA for so many of the programs, not to mention the operational side, but also the managerial side. What do you feel is the best future for NASA? Where should NASA go? Should we pursue the space stations or should we pursue lunar bases or should we forge onward?

[User] I want to change your question. What NASA should do is go back to being an R&D [research and development] outfit and get out of operations, out of airline operations-level stuff, and I include the Shuttle and everything like it. I include the Space Station and everything like it. They ought to build it, they ought to get it up there and hand it over to somebody that has the ability to be efficient. NASA has no ability to be efficient outside of R&D. I think they were world class in that regard. I'm concerned that they've lost it, because they get hung up in this "bureaucracy of airline" kinds of operations, and people make careers out of being bureaucrats. I don't care what you do, but that's the role that NASA ought to have in doing it, and they should not be the ones that decide what they're going to do. They ought to be the people that figure out how to do it and then hand it over and go do something else, because that's where their forte was.

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] Now, if you'd like to ask me where I think the country should go— [Laughter]

[Assistant] What are your thoughts on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it wasn’t a very sophisticated vehicle, as you well know. He had a hand controller that gave him some rate commands and position commands. He had a periscope and a few things like that, but it really wasn’t much except the radios and, as I said, we didn’t have instrumentation. The KSC guys always ran off with that. We had flown the chimps before. Yes, we flew the chimps before Glenn. But there wasn’t much involved. It was a three-orbit thing, and it was mainly the rocket shooting you up there and the retro to get you down. So there wasn’t much, but somebody had to do it, and I was the only guy there that was willing to do it.\n\n For some of the Mercurys, the later Mercurys, we had pretty extensive testing but I don’t where we stopped the guys from pulling the instrumentation from us all the time, but McDonnell was getting tired supplying VCOs. We had voltage-controlled oscillators for instrumentation in those days, and every week we were shipping three and four of them to the Cape because they wrecked them. McDonnell was getting upset about that.

[Assistant] That’s be understandable.

[User] But we used to laugh about John Glenn. You know, he ran the beaches down at Cocoa Beach [Florida] a lot, and the big story at McDonnell was he wasn’t running to do anything except lose the weight that he had from all those steak and eggs breakfasts on the missions that didn’t go. [Laughter]

[Assistant] While the missions were up, Mercury, Gemini, and even into Apollo, because you were at the resident office there at McDonnell and then later at Grumman, what did you do during the missions?

[User] I used to go and be in Houston and visit the MER, the Mission Evaluation Room, and just see how things were going there. Sometimes I went over to the viewing room and talked to the—well, one of the guys that I used to talk a lot with was Umberto—who wrote the book, The Body Clock.

[Assistant] I know who you’re talking about, but I’m not placing the name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn’t ever fair.

[Assistant] Had there ever been any planning on your side with Grumman? Had there even been any talks, any testing of the LM ever filling a role like it did on Apollo 13?

[User] No, not that I know of. We did a lot of what-ifs, but mostly for other purposes. You know, what if you landed on a rock? What if you landed on a hillside? We did a lot of what-ifs. In fact, I got a call from George Low one day, and he asked me how did I get along with Jim [James A.] Chamberlin, and I said, “Fine. I’ve known him for a long time, and we get along fine.”\n\n He said, “Well, make an office for him up there and make all of his interview arrangements. I’m going to send him up there to do safety review of the lunar module. It’s going to be an overview. It’s going to be in addition to everything else. But I just want him to take an independent look.”\n\n So, yes, we did have a case like that, but I don’t think we ever expected to push the CSM the way it happened. But it shows the flexibility of the mission controllers, and it worked.

[Assistant] It shows that the good engineering and the safety that the LM did end up having.

[User] Yes, the last thing that Jim [James A.] Lovell did before he left the Aquarius, take the dive into the ocean, he said, was to reach back and grab a piece of the netting. I don’t know if you ever heard that, but he reached back and grabbed—we had netting so that if they dropped something, it wouldn’t go behind the panels, and he reached back and grabbed a piece of the netting. I have a piece of it on a little piece of cardboard where he glued it down, signed it, and sent it to me.

[Assistant] That’s really nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you’re right. They were people to ride the river with, and it’s a shame it got off to such a bad start, but I’m sure it was just they didn’t understand Grumman the way some of us did, and the people that were working and supervising them just weren’t good managers.

[Assistant] Certainly is a challenging program all throughout. Looking back over your career with NASA, what would you say, throughout all these programs, that was your biggest challenge, and then also what was your most significant accomplishment, do you think?

[User] Well, I think the biggest challenge was the lunar module. It was in such bad shape that just pulling it off—if it weren’t, as I said in the speech on the anniversary of Apollo 10, if it weren’t for Walter Burke and Mr. Mac, we never would have made it on time. Those guys coming through for me was outstanding. But I knew Mr. Mac well, and when I said I was in trouble, apparently he knew I meant it.

[Assistant] I want to just ask Kevin real quickly if he has any questions, and then that’ll be about it.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I did one or two. One of the things you talked about several times is testing and the role of testing, the importance of it. For all the programs, you got a certain degree of testing going on at the plant, whether that be St. Louis or if that’s in Bethpage or wherever. Then you’ve got another level of testing going on down at the Cape. I understand that there were issues in terms of how much testing to do where, and even if these sort of different levels of testing were necessary, could you do them all at the plant or whatever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a real, real blow when we saw those sled tests. Yes, but I want him to tell you.

[Assistant]
Okay.

Well, we’ll be sure to ask him.

[User] Let’s see. Anything else?

[Assistant]
No, those are all the question I had. Thank you.

Thank you very much for coming and talking with us and sharing your experiences.

[User] Yes, it was interesting.

[Assistant] It was very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. Anything else?

[Assistant]
No, those are all the question I had. Thank you.

Thank you very much for coming and talking with us and sharing your experiences.

[User] Yes, it was interesting.

[Assistant] It was very interesting.

[User] The whole business has been interesting.

[Assistant] Would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m a mechanical engineer by training. Most of my career I’ve been doing integration and test, I&T we call it, for spacecraft assembly.

[Assistant] You work primarily out of Goddard. Were you still working [at] Goddard in 2014? Or did you have a chance to come down here and work with the folks at JSC?

[User] Yes, I’ve been at Goddard for 20 years now, as a contractor. Then at the end of 2014 when I transitioned to the OTIS I&T Manager role, I did start traveling quite extensively to JSC to support a lot of the setup and the preliminary tests and then the final tests that we did with the OTIS assembly there. I think my first trip down there was in January of 2015 and probably I was there about close to half-time for the next three years.

[Assistant] Which company do you work for, if you don’t mind me asking?

[User] I work for a small company right now called G&N Corporation.

[Assistant] That is one company I have not heard about in terms of their role in the test. Can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve heard about Ball [Aerospace] and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I’ve been at Goddard for 20 years now, as a contractor. Then at the end of 2014 when I transitioned to the OTIS I&T Manager role, I did start traveling quite extensively to JSC to support a lot of the setup and the preliminary tests and then the final tests that we did with the OTIS assembly there. I think my first trip down there was in January of 2015 and probably I was there about close to half-time for the next three years.

[Assistant] Which company do you work for, if you don’t mind me asking?

[User] I work for a small company right now called G&N Corporation.

[Assistant] That is one company I have not heard about in terms of their role in the test. Can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve heard about Ball [Aerospace] and—

[User] We’re a very small company. I think we have about five people supporting this project but in various roles. We’re more of a contracting support company I guess you’d say. We don’t have a specific hardware role on the project. I’m the only one that works integration and test. We have several other people in systems engineering with James Webb Project.

[Assistant] This morning I was looking at your e-mail, so I thought, “Oh, I’m curious about that.” I’ve talked to a number of people from Harris and Ball and some of the other contractors but not your company, so I wanted to check with you on that. When you first came down to JSC what was the status of Building 32 at that point? Was the building ready for testing, or was there still a lot of work that still needed to be done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I work for a small company right now called G&N Corporation.

[Assistant] That is one company I have not heard about in terms of their role in the test. Can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve heard about Ball [Aerospace] and—

[User] We’re a very small company. I think we have about five people supporting this project but in various roles. We’re more of a contracting support company I guess you’d say. We don’t have a specific hardware role on the project. I’m the only one that works integration and test. We have several other people in systems engineering with James Webb Project.

[Assistant] This morning I was looking at your e-mail, so I thought, “Oh, I’m curious about that.” I’ve talked to a number of people from Harris and Ball and some of the other contractors but not your company, so I wanted to check with you on that. When you first came down to JSC what was the status of Building 32 at that point? Was the building ready for testing, or was there still a lot of work that still needed to be done?

[User] When I came down a lot of the prep work on the facility was done. The clean room was assembled. The chamber was modified and operational. The new cryo system was installed in the chamber. When I came down, we were bringing test hardware down to check out all the work they had done. I came down [in January of ’15], right when we had a full-scale simulated test unit we called pathfinder. We ran several tests with it to verify both that we could test something that was very similar to James Webb Telescope at those temperatures and then secondly that the facility that we were using was capable of doing those tests. That’s what happened for probably the next two years, a series of pathfinder tests that we conducted down in the JSC facility.

[Assistant] What was your role in preparing for OGSE [Optical Ground Support Equipment]-1 and 2 and also the thermal test that was done? You said you do integration and testing. What does that involve?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The performance of the tests I was involved with but not necessarily overall lead. I was more the lead of getting the test article and the facility ready to perform the test and then after the test deconfiguring the test article and the facility. In that part where I was more directly leading there was—oh, boy, it’s hard to say how many people. People would fly out. A team from Ball would fly in. They would configure their hardware or their mirrors, and then they would leave. Another team would come in.\n\n There was teams coming in and going for their little pieces all the time. The Harris team was there for the facility and the test hardware setup. They stayed the whole time. If you add up all the folks that were involved it was 200 or 300 probably. At any given time, there could have been 50 to 60 on site, at our peak time.

[Assistant] You were preparing to get OTIS into the chamber. Were you here when she arrived?

[User] I was.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day?

[User] That was one of the more challenging days I had when I was there. I’m trying to remember what all happened, but it was quite a—coordinating the transportation team, our integration and test team, and facility teams, I remember it being a real challenge and a very long day. Probably one of the longest more challenging days I had when I was down there.\n\n I guess just the pressure of the fact that we [completed] two years of preparation. Here it is. I think everyone was a little on edge and tense. We ran into some pretty small problems, but people reacted, I guess, in a way that was unexpected. I guess everyone was a little bit nervous and excited at the same time.

[Assistant] Do you recall what happened? You mentioned it was relatively small potatoes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day?

[User] That was one of the more challenging days I had when I was there. I’m trying to remember what all happened, but it was quite a—coordinating the transportation team, our integration and test team, and facility teams, I remember it being a real challenge and a very long day. Probably one of the longest more challenging days I had when I was down there.\n\n I guess just the pressure of the fact that we [completed] two years of preparation. Here it is. I think everyone was a little on edge and tense. We ran into some pretty small problems, but people reacted, I guess, in a way that was unexpected. I guess everyone was a little bit nervous and excited at the same time.

[Assistant] Do you recall what happened? You mentioned it was relatively small potatoes.

[User] Moving the container into the clean room, the air bearings that were floating it got hung up at one point. It required just a few adjustments. The fact that this container with the flight hardware in it was stuck for maybe 15 minutes, wasn’t long, but people got really excited about that. The team worked through it. It was a long day. Some of the folks that were responsible for lifting the flight telescope out of the container and getting it onto the turnover fixture where we did a lot of the integration activity, those folks were coming up on the end of a long day, where they had to be relieved. We were debating whether we’d continue that day or come back the next day. There was a lot of negotiating between different groups: the transportation group, the mechanical handling group, [the facility team], and the ground support equipment group.\n\n It doesn’t sound like a big deal now, but it was a very stressful day, one of my more stressful days there as I recall. It got better. It got much better.

[Assistant] Things can be stressful. When you look back sometimes you think, “Oh, that really wasn’t a big deal.” I wasn’t in your shoes, but I can imagine it must have been stressful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was. I was originally going to be part of the test team. I had been part of the test team for the pathfinder test as on-shift test director. It had been quite a long flow, and I took the time to take a break during the test because I knew that we would be picking up again with a pretty heavy activity afterward. I was not part of the test team that ran the test. I did monitor remotely what I could. At the same time I was starting to plan for the deintegration flow at JSC and our flow after arrival at Northrop Grumman. A lot of planning was done at that time.

[Assistant] Were you watching the weather? Any concerns about the hurricane that showed up?

[User] Oh, yes. I was watching a lot. I had originally been asked to be part of the rideout team if the hurricane came, so I had gone through some of the training and some of the medical screening required to be on that team. So always an interest, and kept a close eye, and [I] was fascinated with what happened and how everything worked out so well.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s a pretty amazing story, I think, that things worked out and everything went well in spite of the weather, in spite of Mother Nature.

[User] Right, it is incredible. Incredible. We had done so much planning for what we would do, and it was good that we did that planning. What actually happened in reality was a little different than anyone predicted. It wasn’t the classic ramping up at the levels of alert and then the facility being closed. It happened in a very different fashion than I think is normal for hurricanes. Right?

[Assistant] I think so. I don’t even remember the Center telling us to start preparing for the hurricane, it just sort of came up and then we were closed. Were you here for the last couple of days of the test? Or when did you come back to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I was watching a lot. I had originally been asked to be part of the rideout team if the hurricane came, so I had gone through some of the training and some of the medical screening required to be on that team. So always an interest, and kept a close eye, and [I] was fascinated with what happened and how everything worked out so well.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s a pretty amazing story, I think, that things worked out and everything went well in spite of the weather, in spite of Mother Nature.

[User] Right, it is incredible. Incredible. We had done so much planning for what we would do, and it was good that we did that planning. What actually happened in reality was a little different than anyone predicted. It wasn’t the classic ramping up at the levels of alert and then the facility being closed. It happened in a very different fashion than I think is normal for hurricanes. Right?

[Assistant] I think so. I don’t even remember the Center telling us to start preparing for the hurricane, it just sort of came up and then we were closed. Were you here for the last couple of days of the test? Or when did you come back to Houston?

[User] I came back when the door opened, and we could start preparing to deconfigure in the chamber for the rollout. There was some troubleshooting on a couple issues that had to happen for a few days before we could actually deconfigure. I was there, and we were laying out a plan for the teams on what we were going to do once we got clearance to go in and break the configuration. I don’t remember the date I got there. The chamber was back at ambient pressure and temperature, [however] the door wasn’t open yet.

[Assistant] Was that a momentous occasion for the team? Was there any sort of event to mark that moment or that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, it is incredible. Incredible. We had done so much planning for what we would do, and it was good that we did that planning. What actually happened in reality was a little different than anyone predicted. It wasn’t the classic ramping up at the levels of alert and then the facility being closed. It happened in a very different fashion than I think is normal for hurricanes. Right?

[Assistant] I think so. I don’t even remember the Center telling us to start preparing for the hurricane, it just sort of came up and then we were closed. Were you here for the last couple of days of the test? Or when did you come back to Houston?

[User] I came back when the door opened, and we could start preparing to deconfigure in the chamber for the rollout. There was some troubleshooting on a couple issues that had to happen for a few days before we could actually deconfigure. I was there, and we were laying out a plan for the teams on what we were going to do once we got clearance to go in and break the configuration. I don’t remember the date I got there. The chamber was back at ambient pressure and temperature, [however] the door wasn’t open yet.

[Assistant] Was that a momentous occasion for the team? Was there any sort of event to mark that moment or that day?

[User] I don’t think there was an event really. I think the bigger event in my mind was when we put it in the container to leave JSC, because that was really the sense of this is over. It was done. All that planning and it’s done. It’s just hard to imagine. It was three years, but it seemed like it was much less than that because it was nonstop for quite a while.

[Assistant] How long did it take you guys to take her out and get her ready to go out to California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came back when the door opened, and we could start preparing to deconfigure in the chamber for the rollout. There was some troubleshooting on a couple issues that had to happen for a few days before we could actually deconfigure. I was there, and we were laying out a plan for the teams on what we were going to do once we got clearance to go in and break the configuration. I don’t remember the date I got there. The chamber was back at ambient pressure and temperature, [however] the door wasn’t open yet.

[Assistant] Was that a momentous occasion for the team? Was there any sort of event to mark that moment or that day?

[User] I don’t think there was an event really. I think the bigger event in my mind was when we put it in the container to leave JSC, because that was really the sense of this is over. It was done. All that planning and it’s done. It’s just hard to imagine. It was three years, but it seemed like it was much less than that because it was nonstop for quite a while.

[Assistant] How long did it take you guys to take her out and get her ready to go out to California?

[User] I’m trying to think back. There was some issues identified during the test that had to be investigated to make sure they weren’t real issues and things that needed to be reworked. Once we were given the go-ahead to move on that, everything was clear and good to go, it was about six weeks. I think it was about six weeks. That included the teardown in the chamber. It went, I think, a little quicker coming out. The shifts weren’t quite as long and second shift [wasn’t always used] either. We turned it around. I know it was late January when we were ready to put it in the shipping container. I believe it was in early/mid December when we got the clear to start deconfiguring, getting ready to go.

[Assistant] How was she brought to JSC and then also returned back out to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]? Is there a special convoy or truck?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think there was an event really. I think the bigger event in my mind was when we put it in the container to leave JSC, because that was really the sense of this is over. It was done. All that planning and it’s done. It’s just hard to imagine. It was three years, but it seemed like it was much less than that because it was nonstop for quite a while.

[Assistant] How long did it take you guys to take her out and get her ready to go out to California?

[User] I’m trying to think back. There was some issues identified during the test that had to be investigated to make sure they weren’t real issues and things that needed to be reworked. Once we were given the go-ahead to move on that, everything was clear and good to go, it was about six weeks. I think it was about six weeks. That included the teardown in the chamber. It went, I think, a little quicker coming out. The shifts weren’t quite as long and second shift [wasn’t always used] either. We turned it around. I know it was late January when we were ready to put it in the shipping container. I believe it was in early/mid December when we got the clear to start deconfiguring, getting ready to go.

[Assistant] How was she brought to JSC and then also returned back out to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]? Is there a special convoy or truck?

[User] Right, there’s a large shipping container used to transport it. The shipping container is designed to be pulled down the road by a large tractor. It is a convoy to Ellington. They go basically—I forget the names of the roads down there. They go to the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory] facility in the back of Ellington Airfield, and they go across the airfield from there. There’s convoy support personnel, and there was police escorts as well.

[Assistant] Were you part of that convoy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m trying to think back. There was some issues identified during the test that had to be investigated to make sure they weren’t real issues and things that needed to be reworked. Once we were given the go-ahead to move on that, everything was clear and good to go, it was about six weeks. I think it was about six weeks. That included the teardown in the chamber. It went, I think, a little quicker coming out. The shifts weren’t quite as long and second shift [wasn’t always used] either. We turned it around. I know it was late January when we were ready to put it in the shipping container. I believe it was in early/mid December when we got the clear to start deconfiguring, getting ready to go.

[Assistant] How was she brought to JSC and then also returned back out to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]? Is there a special convoy or truck?

[User] Right, there’s a large shipping container used to transport it. The shipping container is designed to be pulled down the road by a large tractor. It is a convoy to Ellington. They go basically—I forget the names of the roads down there. They go to the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory] facility in the back of Ellington Airfield, and they go across the airfield from there. There’s convoy support personnel, and there was police escorts as well.

[Assistant] Were you part of that convoy?

[User] I was not part of that convoy. We have a separate transportation team that did the moves. I was there that night just to see it off, and I was at Ellington Airfield and watched it get loaded onto the plane, but I was not a direct part of the convoy.

[Assistant] What are your memories of her leaving? Was there any sort of relief that you had, like this stage has been complete, things went well, and happy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, there’s a large shipping container used to transport it. The shipping container is designed to be pulled down the road by a large tractor. It is a convoy to Ellington. They go basically—I forget the names of the roads down there. They go to the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory] facility in the back of Ellington Airfield, and they go across the airfield from there. There’s convoy support personnel, and there was police escorts as well.

[Assistant] Were you part of that convoy?

[User] I was not part of that convoy. We have a separate transportation team that did the moves. I was there that night just to see it off, and I was at Ellington Airfield and watched it get loaded onto the plane, but I was not a direct part of the convoy.

[Assistant] What are your memories of her leaving? Was there any sort of relief that you had, like this stage has been complete, things went well, and happy?

[User] Very relieved, the sense of responsibility and the sense of ownership was overwhelming at times. It was very relieving to see it on to the next phase. It was somewhat bittersweet as well.\n\n I had worked pretty closely with a lot of folks down there for three years, and some of those folks I wasn’t going to see a lot or at least on an everyday basis if ever again in some cases. Working that long and that many hours with making an accomplishment like that, you develop some really close working relationships. A lot of people were saying goodbye that you may not see again or work with again, so it was very bittersweet.

[Assistant] Looking back, what do you think was your most significant contribution to this effort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I guess I can’t. Not one specific. I’ve told Mark [F.] Voyton a couple times that the biggest challenges were often getting the people working together and working toward the same end. The people issues and some of the corporate culture issues, getting different corporate cultures with one set of paperwork and another set of paperwork and different management systems—getting everyone working on the same page was the biggest challenge overall in my mind. We had a lot of smart people that could solve technical problems. It was just more getting the team working together with each other or doing their separate parts and making sure the parts came together at the right time. That was by far the biggest challenge in my mind.

[Assistant] That’s a good point. All these different contractors working together and then also civil servants.

[User] Right, and everyone coming from a different perspective on what’s the most important thing, what’s not the most important, or what we need to do first, or whose way of doing it [is best]. Everyone’s way works, but whose way is better and whose way is not? In some ways, “This is the ‘OTIS way,’” and we’re going to all try to work around that.

[Assistant] How would you describe the “OTIS way”? I’m just curious since you mention that. Is there a way you would characterize that?

[User] Don’t know how I would describe it. I guess we developed a way of working that worked for us. I don’t know how to say [it]. We tried to use a modified Goddard system, if you will, of doing things that included, as best we could, the best practices and the requirements of everyone’s individual company or organization. Certain organizations have contractual requirements to do things a certain way, and others have best practices and safety requirements. We tried to meld them all together. I guess there’s really no way to describe the “OTIS way” other than it was a meld of a lot of different organizations.

[Assistant] That brings to mind another question. There’s always competition between Centers. You’re from Goddard, working at Johnson. Was there any tension between the two Centers over the test, who was in control?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and everyone coming from a different perspective on what’s the most important thing, what’s not the most important, or what we need to do first, or whose way of doing it [is best]. Everyone’s way works, but whose way is better and whose way is not? In some ways, “This is the ‘OTIS way,’” and we’re going to all try to work around that.

[Assistant] How would you describe the “OTIS way”? I’m just curious since you mention that. Is there a way you would characterize that?

[User] Don’t know how I would describe it. I guess we developed a way of working that worked for us. I don’t know how to say [it]. We tried to use a modified Goddard system, if you will, of doing things that included, as best we could, the best practices and the requirements of everyone’s individual company or organization. Certain organizations have contractual requirements to do things a certain way, and others have best practices and safety requirements. We tried to meld them all together. I guess there’s really no way to describe the “OTIS way” other than it was a meld of a lot of different organizations.

[Assistant] That brings to mind another question. There’s always competition between Centers. You’re from Goddard, working at Johnson. Was there any tension between the two Centers over the test, who was in control?

[User] I think there was a little. I tried to stay below all that if you will and more working the real-time issues on the floor, but I think those issues worked themselves out. In some cases I believe a lot of that happened before I was involved. The chamber modification and the clean room assembly was done when I got there. A lot of those, I guess, agreements were made. I sensed some tension at times, but I think it definitely waned. I think at least at my level close to the floor and down it all melded together pretty well in the end.

[Assistant] I think that’s all the questions I had today, but I wondered if there was anything that you wanted to talk about or any anecdotes that you wanted to share about your involvement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don’t know how I would describe it. I guess we developed a way of working that worked for us. I don’t know how to say [it]. We tried to use a modified Goddard system, if you will, of doing things that included, as best we could, the best practices and the requirements of everyone’s individual company or organization. Certain organizations have contractual requirements to do things a certain way, and others have best practices and safety requirements. We tried to meld them all together. I guess there’s really no way to describe the “OTIS way” other than it was a meld of a lot of different organizations.

[Assistant] That brings to mind another question. There’s always competition between Centers. You’re from Goddard, working at Johnson. Was there any tension between the two Centers over the test, who was in control?

[User] I think there was a little. I tried to stay below all that if you will and more working the real-time issues on the floor, but I think those issues worked themselves out. In some cases I believe a lot of that happened before I was involved. The chamber modification and the clean room assembly was done when I got there. A lot of those, I guess, agreements were made. I sensed some tension at times, but I think it definitely waned. I think at least at my level close to the floor and down it all melded together pretty well in the end.

[Assistant] I think that’s all the questions I had today, but I wondered if there was anything that you wanted to talk about or any anecdotes that you wanted to share about your involvement.

[User] No, I guess I don’t have anything to add. It was a very enjoyable part of my career, and I’m glad I did it. It was a challenge being on the road so much. I had never traveled much throughout my career. That was a challenge. But it was very rewarding, and I’m glad I did it.

[Assistant] You go out to California now and then and still working on the telescope?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I guess I don’t have anything to add. It was a very enjoyable part of my career, and I’m glad I did it. It was a challenge being on the road so much. I had never traveled much throughout my career. That was a challenge. But it was very rewarding, and I’m glad I did it.

[Assistant] You go out to California now and then and still working on the telescope?

[User] I do. I’m working on finishing up some tests at OTIS level before it gets mated to the spacecraft and becomes the James Webb Telescope Observatory [which] is what they call it at the end. We’re finishing up work we have to do at the OTIS level, so I’m there one or two weeks a month right now until they integrate with the spacecraft.

[Assistant] That’s exciting.

[User] Yes. Still traveling, but getting a little more used to it.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for your time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you really felt the excitement. Can you share with me what it was like to know that they landed on the Moon and you were about to really be a part of all?

[User] We didn’t have a television, but we had a radio so we were listening to it. We were trying to look out the window. I remember that, trying to look out the window, to see if we could see the Moon, “Can we see them up there?” Everybody was sitting there, hovered around the radio waiting for them to land. We were just glued. It’s like frozen in time. “Here we are. Are they going to get it? Are they going to land on there? Are they going to be able to take off?” That was the other concern. Once they land can they come back?

[Assistant] You were part of the group that saw them when they were put in this facility. Tell me about that.

[User] We didn’t actually get to see them. They were brought here by their little trailers. The whole west side over here near the dock was barricaded and guarded with all kinds of security. They rolled up the doors and they brought those trailers in. They were housed in here, and unless you had to bring something into the conference room during one of the meetings you didn’t see them. You did not see them until afterwards.

[Assistant] Was it that way for all of the Apollo missions? Or was it just for the first?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn’t have a television, but we had a radio so we were listening to it. We were trying to look out the window. I remember that, trying to look out the window, to see if we could see the Moon, “Can we see them up there?” Everybody was sitting there, hovered around the radio waiting for them to land. We were just glued. It’s like frozen in time. “Here we are. Are they going to get it? Are they going to land on there? Are they going to be able to take off?” That was the other concern. Once they land can they come back?

[Assistant] You were part of the group that saw them when they were put in this facility. Tell me about that.

[User] We didn’t actually get to see them. They were brought here by their little trailers. The whole west side over here near the dock was barricaded and guarded with all kinds of security. They rolled up the doors and they brought those trailers in. They were housed in here, and unless you had to bring something into the conference room during one of the meetings you didn’t see them. You did not see them until afterwards.

[Assistant] Was it that way for all of the Apollo missions? Or was it just for the first?

[User] No, all of the Apollo missions. They did all of them the same way.

[Assistant] Interesting, that they were in the building but so far away. So close yet so far away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn’t actually get to see them. They were brought here by their little trailers. The whole west side over here near the dock was barricaded and guarded with all kinds of security. They rolled up the doors and they brought those trailers in. They were housed in here, and unless you had to bring something into the conference room during one of the meetings you didn’t see them. You did not see them until afterwards.

[Assistant] Was it that way for all of the Apollo missions? Or was it just for the first?

[User] No, all of the Apollo missions. They did all of them the same way.

[Assistant] Interesting, that they were in the building but so far away. So close yet so far away.

[User] It was. But beforehand when they were doing all their medical testing and bringing their samples—which invariably they always brought at lunchtime. It’s one way to stay thin, [having to handle those] stool and urine samples at lunch.

[Assistant] Not very appetizing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, all of the Apollo missions. They did all of them the same way.

[Assistant] Interesting, that they were in the building but so far away. So close yet so far away.

[User] It was. But beforehand when they were doing all their medical testing and bringing their samples—which invariably they always brought at lunchtime. It’s one way to stay thin, [having to handle those] stool and urine samples at lunch.

[Assistant] Not very appetizing.

[User] They [the astronauts] were interesting, they were funny. They knew all the people that I had worked with so they’d drop off [their samples] and then go visit them. They weren’t like now, [which is] unless you’re working one-on-one with them you don’t get an opportunity to really see them. Occasionally they’ll come by, in the last nine, ten years, come over to get their blood drawn. But generally that would be done over at the Flight Medicine Clinic over in Building 8.

[Assistant] I guess it was a smaller, more of a close-knit community back then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. But beforehand when they were doing all their medical testing and bringing their samples—which invariably they always brought at lunchtime. It’s one way to stay thin, [having to handle those] stool and urine samples at lunch.

[Assistant] Not very appetizing.

[User] They [the astronauts] were interesting, they were funny. They knew all the people that I had worked with so they’d drop off [their samples] and then go visit them. They weren’t like now, [which is] unless you’re working one-on-one with them you don’t get an opportunity to really see them. Occasionally they’ll come by, in the last nine, ten years, come over to get their blood drawn. But generally that would be done over at the Flight Medicine Clinic over in Building 8.

[Assistant] I guess it was a smaller, more of a close-knit community back then.

[User] It was more close-knit. Everybody looked out for one another. At the time, I can remember Rufus [R.] Hessberg [Space Medicine Director] had come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.]. They were so adamant about us staying in the building in case anything happened, or we were needed for something, or the phones. They would go out and get us hamburgers. There weren’t a lot of local areas for eating as there are now. When I first started there was nothing but fields surrounding the Center. You drove to Highway 3 and NASA [Road] 1, up to the little stop sign, made your turn, and there was nothing until you got to NASA.\n\n They had the old Nassau Bay Hilton [hotel], which they tore down, on the corner. It had a little cafeteria. Right down from it there was a fish and chips place, then one hamburger stand. I don’t even remember what kind of hamburger place it was. There weren’t a lot of places the way there is now.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had planned to go to Lamar University. Did you live in Beaumont at the time or were you living in the immediate area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They [the astronauts] were interesting, they were funny. They knew all the people that I had worked with so they’d drop off [their samples] and then go visit them. They weren’t like now, [which is] unless you’re working one-on-one with them you don’t get an opportunity to really see them. Occasionally they’ll come by, in the last nine, ten years, come over to get their blood drawn. But generally that would be done over at the Flight Medicine Clinic over in Building 8.

[Assistant] I guess it was a smaller, more of a close-knit community back then.

[User] It was more close-knit. Everybody looked out for one another. At the time, I can remember Rufus [R.] Hessberg [Space Medicine Director] had come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.]. They were so adamant about us staying in the building in case anything happened, or we were needed for something, or the phones. They would go out and get us hamburgers. There weren’t a lot of local areas for eating as there are now. When I first started there was nothing but fields surrounding the Center. You drove to Highway 3 and NASA [Road] 1, up to the little stop sign, made your turn, and there was nothing until you got to NASA.\n\n They had the old Nassau Bay Hilton [hotel], which they tore down, on the corner. It had a little cafeteria. Right down from it there was a fish and chips place, then one hamburger stand. I don’t even remember what kind of hamburger place it was. There weren’t a lot of places the way there is now.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had planned to go to Lamar University. Did you live in Beaumont at the time or were you living in the immediate area?

[User] I lived outside the area. I lived in Groves [Texas], it’s in between Beaumont and Port Arthur. They call it the Golden Triangle.

[Assistant] So you moved here once you got your full-time job and decided to stay full-time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was more close-knit. Everybody looked out for one another. At the time, I can remember Rufus [R.] Hessberg [Space Medicine Director] had come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.]. They were so adamant about us staying in the building in case anything happened, or we were needed for something, or the phones. They would go out and get us hamburgers. There weren’t a lot of local areas for eating as there are now. When I first started there was nothing but fields surrounding the Center. You drove to Highway 3 and NASA [Road] 1, up to the little stop sign, made your turn, and there was nothing until you got to NASA.\n\n They had the old Nassau Bay Hilton [hotel], which they tore down, on the corner. It had a little cafeteria. Right down from it there was a fish and chips place, then one hamburger stand. I don’t even remember what kind of hamburger place it was. There weren’t a lot of places the way there is now.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had planned to go to Lamar University. Did you live in Beaumont at the time or were you living in the immediate area?

[User] I lived outside the area. I lived in Groves [Texas], it’s in between Beaumont and Port Arthur. They call it the Golden Triangle.

[Assistant] So you moved here once you got your full-time job and decided to stay full-time?

[User] I moved up here when I applied and they said, “You’ve got the job. We need you to come up here and take your test.” I thought oh, maybe I can just fail it, because I really don’t want to leave Groves. I thought, “Well, it’s only for the summer,” so okay. I was going to stay with my aunt, then go back. Then when I got talked into staying, it was like “get your own place.”

[Assistant] That had to be quite an adventure back in the ‘60s, being a single woman and getting your own place in the area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived outside the area. I lived in Groves [Texas], it’s in between Beaumont and Port Arthur. They call it the Golden Triangle.

[Assistant] So you moved here once you got your full-time job and decided to stay full-time?

[User] I moved up here when I applied and they said, “You’ve got the job. We need you to come up here and take your test.” I thought oh, maybe I can just fail it, because I really don’t want to leave Groves. I thought, “Well, it’s only for the summer,” so okay. I was going to stay with my aunt, then go back. Then when I got talked into staying, it was like “get your own place.”

[Assistant] That had to be quite an adventure back in the ‘60s, being a single woman and getting your own place in the area.

[User] And fresh out of high school. When you’re used to being in a small community, outside of traveling out of state to go see relatives—there was not much being away from home.

[Assistant] There weren’t a lot of places to stay here either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I moved up here when I applied and they said, “You’ve got the job. We need you to come up here and take your test.” I thought oh, maybe I can just fail it, because I really don’t want to leave Groves. I thought, “Well, it’s only for the summer,” so okay. I was going to stay with my aunt, then go back. Then when I got talked into staying, it was like “get your own place.”

[Assistant] That had to be quite an adventure back in the ‘60s, being a single woman and getting your own place in the area.

[User] And fresh out of high school. When you’re used to being in a small community, outside of traveling out of state to go see relatives—there was not much being away from home.

[Assistant] There weren’t a lot of places to stay here either.

[User] Families didn’t have multiple cars like they do now. The family had one vehicle, and that was it. Families didn’t have all the air conditioning the way they do now either. There’s a lot of changes just in the air factor that people don’t realize, they take for granted. There wasn’t all this electronics. Children’s imaginations were always challenged, because they had to invent things to play with and go outside. They were outside running and doing a lot more than what they do now.

[Assistant] Where did you live? Did you end up in the Clear Lake area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And fresh out of high school. When you’re used to being in a small community, outside of traveling out of state to go see relatives—there was not much being away from home.

[Assistant] There weren’t a lot of places to stay here either.

[User] Families didn’t have multiple cars like they do now. The family had one vehicle, and that was it. Families didn’t have all the air conditioning the way they do now either. There’s a lot of changes just in the air factor that people don’t realize, they take for granted. There wasn’t all this electronics. Children’s imaginations were always challenged, because they had to invent things to play with and go outside. They were outside running and doing a lot more than what they do now.

[Assistant] Where did you live? Did you end up in the Clear Lake area?

[User] My aunt lived in Dickinson. I moved to apartments over by the [William P.] Hobby Airport because that was the airport at the time. It wasn’t that far to drive down.

[Assistant] You didn’t start working in Building 37, you started at Ellington. When did you move?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Families didn’t have multiple cars like they do now. The family had one vehicle, and that was it. Families didn’t have all the air conditioning the way they do now either. There’s a lot of changes just in the air factor that people don’t realize, they take for granted. There wasn’t all this electronics. Children’s imaginations were always challenged, because they had to invent things to play with and go outside. They were outside running and doing a lot more than what they do now.

[Assistant] Where did you live? Did you end up in the Clear Lake area?

[User] My aunt lived in Dickinson. I moved to apartments over by the [William P.] Hobby Airport because that was the airport at the time. It wasn’t that far to drive down.

[Assistant] You didn’t start working in Building 37, you started at Ellington. When did you move?

[User] At Ellington we were in two buildings, 341 and 343. Then as the Center started to build I moved into Building 16. I was there for maybe six or seven months then I moved to Building 37.

[Assistant] You talked briefly about how the building has changed because some of the labs have been combined. Can you share with me other ways that the building has changed physically, and with personnel? I’m thinking that when you first came there wasn’t as much diversity as you have now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My aunt lived in Dickinson. I moved to apartments over by the [William P.] Hobby Airport because that was the airport at the time. It wasn’t that far to drive down.

[Assistant] You didn’t start working in Building 37, you started at Ellington. When did you move?

[User] At Ellington we were in two buildings, 341 and 343. Then as the Center started to build I moved into Building 16. I was there for maybe six or seven months then I moved to Building 37.

[Assistant] You talked briefly about how the building has changed because some of the labs have been combined. Can you share with me other ways that the building has changed physically, and with personnel? I’m thinking that when you first came there wasn’t as much diversity as you have now.

[User] They built the building up by knocking out some of the barrier walls, because to get into this quarantine section where we’re at now there was one entrance. There was that same entrance, exit to get back out. You could not go down the hall and go all the way to the end of the building. If you went further from the lobby down to the next main hallway, that was the way to get into where all of the hard labs that received the lunar material to do their testing. You had to don your clothes, to get into all your lab gear, and then that was the way to exit back. There was a guard posted there.\n\n Of course if you pierced a glove or any of that, we had a big system within the building where there were these big red buttons that were punched for the alarm signal. You were told when you worked in this building if you ever heard those alarms, the building will be sealed. You would not exit until the quarantine period was over, for the sake of we do not know what we’re bringing back. If plants are growing very well, because we had a plant lab, then what else is in the soil? We didn’t know at the time.

[Assistant] Everything was new.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At Ellington we were in two buildings, 341 and 343. Then as the Center started to build I moved into Building 16. I was there for maybe six or seven months then I moved to Building 37.

[Assistant] You talked briefly about how the building has changed because some of the labs have been combined. Can you share with me other ways that the building has changed physically, and with personnel? I’m thinking that when you first came there wasn’t as much diversity as you have now.

[User] They built the building up by knocking out some of the barrier walls, because to get into this quarantine section where we’re at now there was one entrance. There was that same entrance, exit to get back out. You could not go down the hall and go all the way to the end of the building. If you went further from the lobby down to the next main hallway, that was the way to get into where all of the hard labs that received the lunar material to do their testing. You had to don your clothes, to get into all your lab gear, and then that was the way to exit back. There was a guard posted there.\n\n Of course if you pierced a glove or any of that, we had a big system within the building where there were these big red buttons that were punched for the alarm signal. You were told when you worked in this building if you ever heard those alarms, the building will be sealed. You would not exit until the quarantine period was over, for the sake of we do not know what we’re bringing back. If plants are growing very well, because we had a plant lab, then what else is in the soil? We didn’t know at the time.

[Assistant] Everything was new.

[User] It was interesting. I had two small sons, so [I remember thinking that if something happened] they’ll just have to have family come take care of them.

[Assistant] I was going to ask. That’s quite a commitment to make, to work in a building that you may be here for weeks if they had to seal the building.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They built the building up by knocking out some of the barrier walls, because to get into this quarantine section where we’re at now there was one entrance. There was that same entrance, exit to get back out. You could not go down the hall and go all the way to the end of the building. If you went further from the lobby down to the next main hallway, that was the way to get into where all of the hard labs that received the lunar material to do their testing. You had to don your clothes, to get into all your lab gear, and then that was the way to exit back. There was a guard posted there.\n\n Of course if you pierced a glove or any of that, we had a big system within the building where there were these big red buttons that were punched for the alarm signal. You were told when you worked in this building if you ever heard those alarms, the building will be sealed. You would not exit until the quarantine period was over, for the sake of we do not know what we’re bringing back. If plants are growing very well, because we had a plant lab, then what else is in the soil? We didn’t know at the time.

[Assistant] Everything was new.

[User] It was interesting. I had two small sons, so [I remember thinking that if something happened] they’ll just have to have family come take care of them.

[Assistant] I was going to ask. That’s quite a commitment to make, to work in a building that you may be here for weeks if they had to seal the building.

[User] But you were told that if that happened—chances are it wouldn’t. You just had to be aware that that was a condition. That was fine with me.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with the rocks or with any of the samples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was interesting. I had two small sons, so [I remember thinking that if something happened] they’ll just have to have family come take care of them.

[Assistant] I was going to ask. That’s quite a commitment to make, to work in a building that you may be here for weeks if they had to seal the building.

[User] But you were told that if that happened—chances are it wouldn’t. You just had to be aware that that was a condition. That was fine with me.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with the rocks or with any of the samples?

[User] They were all in glass cases. We had a big vault where we had little vials of lunar dust that were locked up. We had the log, then we had this combination safe. They were kept in there, they were just tiny little vials.

[Assistant] You mentioned also they would have press conferences out on the front [lawn]. Were you able to attend those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But you were told that if that happened—chances are it wouldn’t. You just had to be aware that that was a condition. That was fine with me.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with the rocks or with any of the samples?

[User] They were all in glass cases. We had a big vault where we had little vials of lunar dust that were locked up. We had the log, then we had this combination safe. They were kept in there, they were just tiny little vials.

[Assistant] You mentioned also they would have press conferences out on the front [lawn]. Were you able to attend those?

[User] Yes, they encouraged everybody that could be spared. You could go out on the lawn and hear each of the crewmen speak through the PA [public address] system to everyone. It wasn’t like a press conference that you think of now where there are questions answered and asked. It was the crew just relating their job well done and their statements, like what they do at Ellington now [after Shuttle missions].

[Assistant] How did your job change over the years? You said you took all the training that you could, and you found that safety was something that you enjoyed learning about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was later, that wasn’t the very first ones that came out. Later on you had the little interchangeable balls. I don’t know what was better, putting the key in or changing that ball and putting another ball on. If you didn’t put it on right, boy, that ball would go fwoo [rolling across the room].\n\n Everything had to be letter-perfect. If it was being sent off the Center, you couldn’t have erasures. So if you got down to the very bottom and you had a typo, you had to rip that thing out of the typewriter and start all over from scratch. You had to be not interrupted if it was something like that, so that you could make sure. “Let me get this right.”

[Assistant] You had quite a group of personalities, I’m sure, that you worked with as well, because you had so many different types of people. The medical people and the science people, as you said the military background people.

[User] There were a multitude of personalities. Some were what we call difficult people. I even took a training class about how to work with difficult people. One individual—everybody termed him the hothead. The first day we had an afternoon break and the instructor says, “Do you work with him every day?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Why are you taking this class?” I thought uh-oh, but you just had to be able to—everyone’s temperamental. Physicians are different than researchers, they’re all different than engineers. Everyone has different personalities. Military, they’re totally different.

[Assistant] And men from women. When did you actually have a woman boss?

[User] I had a woman boss in the early ’90s.

[Assistant] That must have been different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were a multitude of personalities. Some were what we call difficult people. I even took a training class about how to work with difficult people. One individual—everybody termed him the hothead. The first day we had an afternoon break and the instructor says, “Do you work with him every day?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Why are you taking this class?” I thought uh-oh, but you just had to be able to—everyone’s temperamental. Physicians are different than researchers, they’re all different than engineers. Everyone has different personalities. Military, they’re totally different.

[Assistant] And men from women. When did you actually have a woman boss?

[User] I had a woman boss in the early ’90s.

[Assistant] That must have been different.

[User] A lot of people weren’t so keen about wanting to work for a woman. It doesn’t bother me. They have a different style. They’re more focused on their agenda than getting off track like men do, because men will do that. They’ll have a chain of thought, then it’s like they get onto something else. Women that I’ve worked for, they are focused. “Go down this path, I want to get this done, then we go to the next.”

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you learned that the astronaut corps was going to change and allow women to apply, and women scientists to apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a woman boss in the early ’90s.

[Assistant] That must have been different.

[User] A lot of people weren’t so keen about wanting to work for a woman. It doesn’t bother me. They have a different style. They’re more focused on their agenda than getting off track like men do, because men will do that. They’ll have a chain of thought, then it’s like they get onto something else. Women that I’ve worked for, they are focused. “Go down this path, I want to get this done, then we go to the next.”

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you learned that the astronaut corps was going to change and allow women to apply, and women scientists to apply?

[User] I was glad. As a matter of fact, the assistant division chief that I also worked for is now the head of the astronaut crops.

[Assistant] Oh, Peggy [A. Whitson].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of people weren’t so keen about wanting to work for a woman. It doesn’t bother me. They have a different style. They’re more focused on their agenda than getting off track like men do, because men will do that. They’ll have a chain of thought, then it’s like they get onto something else. Women that I’ve worked for, they are focused. “Go down this path, I want to get this done, then we go to the next.”

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you learned that the astronaut corps was going to change and allow women to apply, and women scientists to apply?

[User] I was glad. As a matter of fact, the assistant division chief that I also worked for is now the head of the astronaut crops.

[Assistant] Oh, Peggy [A. Whitson].

[User] Yes. She was great to work for, she was. She gave you a lot of latitude on doing your job. If you earned her trust, you had her trust.

[Assistant] You only have a day and a half left in this building officially. What are some of your most memorable thoughts and favorite memories of being here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was glad. As a matter of fact, the assistant division chief that I also worked for is now the head of the astronaut crops.

[Assistant] Oh, Peggy [A. Whitson].

[User] Yes. She was great to work for, she was. She gave you a lot of latitude on doing your job. If you earned her trust, you had her trust.

[Assistant] You only have a day and a half left in this building officially. What are some of your most memorable thoughts and favorite memories of being here?

[User] I would have to say Apollo 11 was the greatest time in my experience, just because of all the challenges, the excitement. What a difference from anything I have experienced since then. Everything was unknown, everything was new. It was like a horse coming out of the gate, you didn’t know where this horse was going to go. It’s like riding at night with blinders on. It was interesting.

[Assistant] Since you’ve become facility manager, have you had a time that was extremely challenging? You mentioned that when you walk in sometimes you’ve got to hit the ground running, because you’ve got to go deal with a problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We do. For years—and to this day people still believe that we are keeping the alien down there. Let me tell you, I’ve been there are a multitude of times—and I will not lie to you—there are no aliens in the Building 37 basement. It’s 90 feet. If that elevator breaks, you are going to get one good cardio workout, and I have done that.

[Assistant] Is it used for anything at all anymore?

[User] Right now it’s used for storage. Back in the Apollo days it was used for the radiation area. For a while the Science Directorate had a low-level counting lab in there, which they’ve since removed. A few years back we had the halon system released, when the fire techs [technicians] were doing their bell testing. They’ve recently put in the new system, but because the elevator is always going out, it’s just used for storage. It was 90 feet down, you can’t even get cell phone reception. There are no windows, there’s no restroom down there. That’s just cruel to put somebody down there. But everybody wants to go down. “We’ve always heard about the Building 37 basement, we want to go down there.” What for? It’s one big room with a long hallway that goes to a small room. That’s it, that’s all you’re going to see.

[Assistant] No ghosts, no aliens.

[User] No. Then a door going up to the stairs. You take them down there and it’s, “Oh, is this it?” This is it, the grand tour.

[Assistant] It’s like you grew up with NASA, you came here when it was so new. Now it’s celebrated 50 years and you’ve been with it for almost that entire time. What do you think you’re going to miss the most?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Then a door going up to the stairs. You take them down there and it’s, “Oh, is this it?” This is it, the grand tour.

[Assistant] It’s like you grew up with NASA, you came here when it was so new. Now it’s celebrated 50 years and you’ve been with it for almost that entire time. What do you think you’re going to miss the most?

[User] I think the excitement and the people. It’s been exciting. It’s been interesting to watch how NASA has changed, it’s different. I don’t think it has registered that I’m retiring, because I’m still doing things and meeting with people. Wednesday [November 30, 2011] will be my last day, and I think Thursday morning it’s going to hit me. I’ve tried not to get emotional. It’s like no, no tears. This is not a sad occasion. It’s sad in the fact that you’re not going to get to see me, but you have my phone number, you can always call me. 45 years. I’ve earned this, it’s time for me to rest.\n\n In the economic times that we’re in right now, there are a lot of people without jobs. There are a lot of young people with young families. I’ve had my turn, I’m going to do okay. It’s time for others to come in to be able to get a job, and be able to get a rewarding satisfaction of saying, “I’ve been with NASA 40 years, 45 years, 30 years.”\n\n NASA has been a great place to work. I’m so glad that I did not say, “You all don’t know what you’re talking about, I’m going to college.”

[Assistant] What a different life you would have had.

[User] There’s no telling what I would be doing now. So hindsight—they knew what was best for me.

[Assistant] Our time is almost up. Are there other memories you would like to share before we close?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s no telling what I would be doing now. So hindsight—they knew what was best for me.

[Assistant] Our time is almost up. Are there other memories you would like to share before we close?

[User] No, I think we’ve covered everything. It’s a great place for people to work. It’s exciting. I told them if we ever get a new building to replace 37, they have got to call me. I’ve been hearing since the ’70s that they’re going to replace 37 and I’ve yet to see it. I would like to see that. I would like to be able to see us go to Mars or go back to the Moon. I think there’s a lot more that we could have done on the Moon than just go to it, and I think that we have the capability now to do that. I would like to see that happen.

[Assistant] Before we close, I wanted to ask you about the recent [Apollo 11 lunar landing 40th] anniversary. You had the plaques made that identify the different aspects of the [history of the] building, then you hosted the event, inviting the Apollo astronauts to come.

[User] We had two, we had [Neil A.] Armstrong and we had [Edwin E. “Buzz”] Aldrin [Jr.].

[Assistant] Quite a celebration you had in the building.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think we’ve covered everything. It’s a great place for people to work. It’s exciting. I told them if we ever get a new building to replace 37, they have got to call me. I’ve been hearing since the ’70s that they’re going to replace 37 and I’ve yet to see it. I would like to see that. I would like to be able to see us go to Mars or go back to the Moon. I think there’s a lot more that we could have done on the Moon than just go to it, and I think that we have the capability now to do that. I would like to see that happen.

[Assistant] Before we close, I wanted to ask you about the recent [Apollo 11 lunar landing 40th] anniversary. You had the plaques made that identify the different aspects of the [history of the] building, then you hosted the event, inviting the Apollo astronauts to come.

[User] We had two, we had [Neil A.] Armstrong and we had [Edwin E. “Buzz”] Aldrin [Jr.].

[Assistant] Quite a celebration you had in the building.

[User] We had a lot of the medical officers that were here during that time, and the science people that were here that took care of the rocks. That was fun. It was really interesting to see how we’ve all wrinkled and grayed. But yes, we had one afternoon. It was a dedication ceremony [June 10, 2010]. We had the plaques that are throughout the southwest side to indicate where the crew was brought in, where the Moon rocks were brought in, where the crew reception area, where they ate and watched television, where they slept. Then the infamous Conference Room 1 where they gave their debriefs and met with their families.

[Assistant] I’m glad that didn’t happen after you left, that you got to be part of all of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had two, we had [Neil A.] Armstrong and we had [Edwin E. “Buzz”] Aldrin [Jr.].

[Assistant] Quite a celebration you had in the building.

[User] We had a lot of the medical officers that were here during that time, and the science people that were here that took care of the rocks. That was fun. It was really interesting to see how we’ve all wrinkled and grayed. But yes, we had one afternoon. It was a dedication ceremony [June 10, 2010]. We had the plaques that are throughout the southwest side to indicate where the crew was brought in, where the Moon rocks were brought in, where the crew reception area, where they ate and watched television, where they slept. Then the infamous Conference Room 1 where they gave their debriefs and met with their families.

[Assistant] I’m glad that didn’t happen after you left, that you got to be part of all of that.

[User] Well, they needed me out in the lobby, because no one else was here to remember who the people were. It’s like everybody that attended, I had worked for and they’ve retired. When they come back for a visit, they come in and stop and see me. I have told them, “I’m going to retire. You all are not going to have anybody left to come say hello to.”

[Assistant] I know it was probably a good comfort to them to know you were here still taking care of the building. Thanks so much for squeezing this session in your departure schedule, and I wish you the best of luck with all your new adventures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m going to have to look up when that was. I am not really sure of the timeline for that.

[Assistant] Just approximately, early 2000’s?

[User] It was late 2000’s.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It was, I want to say, ’09, or 2010 possibly. But we can look online to see those exact dates. But mainly it was that people would file complaints against us for posting stuff like that. And then, of course it hit the news. Even though it had sort of been there before, now, you know, the Guatemalan government would get upset. You know, different, it could have had, I guess, a lot of political ramifications. Apparently, it was agreed upon by the countries that allowed this to occur, but the families of these people were very upset, and I don’t know if they received reparations, but they may have. That was the most—it was a very difficult project that I was involved in.

[Assistant] Would you say that NARA was serving as sort of a watchdog in that scenario, or just had access to the records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was late 2000’s.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It was, I want to say, ’09, or 2010 possibly. But we can look online to see those exact dates. But mainly it was that people would file complaints against us for posting stuff like that. And then, of course it hit the news. Even though it had sort of been there before, now, you know, the Guatemalan government would get upset. You know, different, it could have had, I guess, a lot of political ramifications. Apparently, it was agreed upon by the countries that allowed this to occur, but the families of these people were very upset, and I don’t know if they received reparations, but they may have. That was the most—it was a very difficult project that I was involved in.

[Assistant] Would you say that NARA was serving as sort of a watchdog in that scenario, or just had access to the records?

[User] No, we weren’t a watchdog because mainly we can’t publish things if they are records from another agency; we have to have their permission to publish them. So, all this was being worked out, with our General Counsel, their General Counsel—I guess it’s possible that they were FOIA-ed—we would not have released them without coordinating with CDC. So, you know, all this back and forth was going on about when we could release them, how we were supposed to release them, so there was a lot going on across these agencies to publish. But we were not really a watchdog. We just can’t publish some of the stuff until, you know, the agency agrees to release them.

[Assistant] Moving to a more specific question, can you describe a typical day in your unit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NARA has a daycare. It is actually when you first come in the building—no, you actually have to access it from the outside. So, when you first come in the driveway, if you look to your left, there is this little short area. That is the daycare, and that is where the playground is. The other time we see them is when there is a fire alarm, and parents rush down to get them, and then they, I mean, it’s kind of fun to see, but they put seven of them in a crib and roll them out—it’s kind of cool.

[Assistant] Does Archives I have its own daycare? Do they send the kids on a shuttle here?

[User] I don’t know. It’s open to other people; it does not just have to be NARA employees. But there’s more facilities available downtown. The Department of Labor had their daycare center since 1963. But you have more opportunities to use other daycare centers nearby. You don’t have to rely on your own agency. So, my son went to Labor from three years to five years old. I think here they take them as infants, six weeks to eight weeks.

[Assistant] He can put that on his resume: Department of Labor, age 2 to age 5.

[User] Yes, you know, that was the fun thing. And so, I’d see a school bus come up here sometimes, so I’m not sure if there is school age, but an elementary school bus comes in the parking lot sometimes. So, there might be a kid down there who is already going to kindergarten.

[Assistant] How do you view your time at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. It’s open to other people; it does not just have to be NARA employees. But there’s more facilities available downtown. The Department of Labor had their daycare center since 1963. But you have more opportunities to use other daycare centers nearby. You don’t have to rely on your own agency. So, my son went to Labor from three years to five years old. I think here they take them as infants, six weeks to eight weeks.

[Assistant] He can put that on his resume: Department of Labor, age 2 to age 5.

[User] Yes, you know, that was the fun thing. And so, I’d see a school bus come up here sometimes, so I’m not sure if there is school age, but an elementary school bus comes in the parking lot sometimes. So, there might be a kid down there who is already going to kindergarten.

[Assistant] How do you view your time at the National Archives?

[User] Well, it’s interesting, because at first, one of the things I liked about working at Labor is I felt that the Department had a lot of impact on Americans, and I did not see that so much when I first came here. But over time I see that we’ve got so much history here. We are providing access to those records. Again, I’ve learned a lot. I do feel that this agency has a huge impact on all Americans, not just working Americans because that’s what Labor was: working Americans. Everybody who worked, but so, I definitely feel proud and honored to have worked for the agency. And it also, again, I think, I don’t know if you’re aware, we have low scores in terms of employee satisfaction.

[Assistant] I didn’t know that, but that’s interesting. Can you tell me more about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. On the web team, we were not archivists. The only thing that I do right now is the Federal Web Managers Council. And then there is a social media group, but they are not recognized like SAA.

[Assistant] That’s okay; tell me about them.

[User] Well, the Federal Web Managers Council is, again, sponsored by GSA. They’ve been around for quite a while, but we used to have an annual training where we would share best practices and things like that, and so, there is a website, digitalgov.gov, where there is all the information. So, we would review new policies and new guidance. We would share all of that information and that kind of stuff. So, they used to have monthly meetings that I would attend and then when social media kicked off, that Social Media Council did that same sort of thing where, you know, you can go online. That’s the other things that changed so much: webinars and things, where you don’t have to leave your building and travel too far just to learn about the latest, you know, software that people are using and things like that. But no, I’m not affiliated with any formal things like SAA.

[Assistant] Okay, and is there anything you would like to add to the interview, such as anecdotes or words of wisdom?

[User] That’s a hard one: anecdotes. I guess one thing is not to judge a book by its cover, probably because like I said, when I first came here I was thinking I had made a mistake because I felt like people were very unfriendly. It didn’t seem like people were very happy here, but over time, as I got to know everyone, there was this serious demeanor all the time, so it did not seem like people were having fun in their work, but that would be one. I guess the one thing that people don’t know about how I ended up in this is that I have a degree in hospitality.

[Assistant] I know that program at UMass.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a good question. We moved from Franklin to Ellington [Air Force Base], and were at Ellington, in the barracks, for a while. Building 13 was one of the first buildings opened, other than Building 1 Headquarters. It was early on, when the site was first opened. I remember one of the times, walking into Building 13 after it had rained, and we walked on wooden planks because we still hadn’t put the sidewalks in. It was pretty early.

[Assistant] Yes, that is fairly early. After you worked on that computer program, were you starting to work on testing ablators in different ways, besides computers?

[User] We were doing that as soon as the JSC Arc Facility was developed.

[Assistant] That was the original one?

[User] The original one, the 1.0-megawatt facility. According to Don’s [Donald J. Tillian] history, it opened up in September of ’63. We started some testing back as early as late ’63, probably early ’64.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all in using that facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were doing that as soon as the JSC Arc Facility was developed.

[Assistant] That was the original one?

[User] The original one, the 1.0-megawatt facility. According to Don’s [Donald J. Tillian] history, it opened up in September of ’63. We started some testing back as early as late ’63, probably early ’64.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all in using that facility?

[User] Yes, I was, sure.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The original one, the 1.0-megawatt facility. According to Don’s [Donald J. Tillian] history, it opened up in September of ’63. We started some testing back as early as late ’63, probably early ’64.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all in using that facility?

[User] Yes, I was, sure.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?

[User] It was a very interesting facility because it was small, and we could basically almost be out in the chamber and watch the tests go on. It was a 1-megawatt facility, and we did a lot of different material testing at the time. Shortly after that, I’m not sure exactly what the year was, but then we developed a bigger Arc Jet, the 1.5-megawatt facility.

[Assistant] Do you know the reasoning behind the need for a bigger facility? I find it interesting that you had a facility that you were using for Gemini and Apollo, but then there was a need, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was, sure.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?

[User] It was a very interesting facility because it was small, and we could basically almost be out in the chamber and watch the tests go on. It was a 1-megawatt facility, and we did a lot of different material testing at the time. Shortly after that, I’m not sure exactly what the year was, but then we developed a bigger Arc Jet, the 1.5-megawatt facility.

[Assistant] Do you know the reasoning behind the need for a bigger facility? I find it interesting that you had a facility that you were using for Gemini and Apollo, but then there was a need, I guess.

[User] The 1-megawatt really wasn’t big enough for Apollo. We really couldn’t get the power we needed, we couldn’t get the heating rates that we needed, couldn’t get the pressures we needed, the enthalpy values we needed. Also, we needed to be able to test bigger test articles. Initially, we tested small test articles, on the order of 1 inch to 2 inches, but we wanted to go to higher-sized articles. To do that, you had to have more power; you have to have a bigger exit nozzle, so a lot of equipment had to be changed. At the same time, we changed from a Plasmadyne facility to the Aerotherm facility, which was another innovation.

[Assistant] Would you explain the difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a very interesting facility because it was small, and we could basically almost be out in the chamber and watch the tests go on. It was a 1-megawatt facility, and we did a lot of different material testing at the time. Shortly after that, I’m not sure exactly what the year was, but then we developed a bigger Arc Jet, the 1.5-megawatt facility.

[Assistant] Do you know the reasoning behind the need for a bigger facility? I find it interesting that you had a facility that you were using for Gemini and Apollo, but then there was a need, I guess.

[User] The 1-megawatt really wasn’t big enough for Apollo. We really couldn’t get the power we needed, we couldn’t get the heating rates that we needed, couldn’t get the pressures we needed, the enthalpy values we needed. Also, we needed to be able to test bigger test articles. Initially, we tested small test articles, on the order of 1 inch to 2 inches, but we wanted to go to higher-sized articles. To do that, you had to have more power; you have to have a bigger exit nozzle, so a lot of equipment had to be changed. At the same time, we changed from a Plasmadyne facility to the Aerotherm facility, which was another innovation.

[Assistant] Would you explain the difference?

[User] I really don’t know the big difference between the two. Don would know that.

[Assistant] Who was put in charge of creating and designing that building? Do you recall some of the folks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The 1-megawatt really wasn’t big enough for Apollo. We really couldn’t get the power we needed, we couldn’t get the heating rates that we needed, couldn’t get the pressures we needed, the enthalpy values we needed. Also, we needed to be able to test bigger test articles. Initially, we tested small test articles, on the order of 1 inch to 2 inches, but we wanted to go to higher-sized articles. To do that, you had to have more power; you have to have a bigger exit nozzle, so a lot of equipment had to be changed. At the same time, we changed from a Plasmadyne facility to the Aerotherm facility, which was another innovation.

[Assistant] Would you explain the difference?

[User] I really don’t know the big difference between the two. Don would know that.

[Assistant] Who was put in charge of creating and designing that building? Do you recall some of the folks?

[User] Dave [David H.] Greenshields was the branch chief for the Arc Jet facility, so I’m sure he was the major person in charge of getting that building built, the 1-megawatt facility, and then actually the modifications after that, too, because he was the branch chief for many years, over the Arc Jet as well as over the thermal protection group.

[Assistant] Do you recall any interesting tests for Gemini or Apollo that stand out in your memory, since you said you were more of a user than on the other side, a test operator?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really don’t know the big difference between the two. Don would know that.

[Assistant] Who was put in charge of creating and designing that building? Do you recall some of the folks?

[User] Dave [David H.] Greenshields was the branch chief for the Arc Jet facility, so I’m sure he was the major person in charge of getting that building built, the 1-megawatt facility, and then actually the modifications after that, too, because he was the branch chief for many years, over the Arc Jet as well as over the thermal protection group.

[Assistant] Do you recall any interesting tests for Gemini or Apollo that stand out in your memory, since you said you were more of a user than on the other side, a test operator?

[User] Sure. Probably the most significant one was on Apollo. We were testing the Apollo material. When you do the test, you have to seal the back surface of the ablator against the sting arm—we call it the sting arm—we bonded it to an aluminum plate with an adhesive. The test article would maybe be two inches in diameter, or two inches thick, or four inches thick. On one test, we stuck it into the Arc Jet, and within seconds we destroyed the entire test article, which, as you might realize, would cause a little consternation among the people. Upon examination of, we realized that we didn’t get a good seal back at the interface between the ablator and the carrier plate, or the aluminum backup structure, we call it. Because of that, we had a gas flow that just went right through it because the material was porous. It had a porosity to it, so the gas just went through it and just basically destroyed it. Pressure of the gas plus the internal pressure being lower, it just had a great flow.

[Assistant] Yikes. Yes, I’m sure a lot of people were quite scared, thinking, “We’re going to send this to space? What will happen to the crew?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dave [David H.] Greenshields was the branch chief for the Arc Jet facility, so I’m sure he was the major person in charge of getting that building built, the 1-megawatt facility, and then actually the modifications after that, too, because he was the branch chief for many years, over the Arc Jet as well as over the thermal protection group.

[Assistant] Do you recall any interesting tests for Gemini or Apollo that stand out in your memory, since you said you were more of a user than on the other side, a test operator?

[User] Sure. Probably the most significant one was on Apollo. We were testing the Apollo material. When you do the test, you have to seal the back surface of the ablator against the sting arm—we call it the sting arm—we bonded it to an aluminum plate with an adhesive. The test article would maybe be two inches in diameter, or two inches thick, or four inches thick. On one test, we stuck it into the Arc Jet, and within seconds we destroyed the entire test article, which, as you might realize, would cause a little consternation among the people. Upon examination of, we realized that we didn’t get a good seal back at the interface between the ablator and the carrier plate, or the aluminum backup structure, we call it. Because of that, we had a gas flow that just went right through it because the material was porous. It had a porosity to it, so the gas just went through it and just basically destroyed it. Pressure of the gas plus the internal pressure being lower, it just had a great flow.

[Assistant] Yikes. Yes, I’m sure a lot of people were quite scared, thinking, “We’re going to send this to space? What will happen to the crew?”

[User] Right, why would this material fail all of a sudden?

[Assistant] Did things change over time, in terms of testing, from Mercury through Apollo? Were you using different ablative materials?