[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really enjoyed it. I lived with a father and a mother and then they had two children, a son and a daughter who were both, I would say, in their young twenties at the time I was there. Both knew some English. The brother particularly was really good, but they were both in Kyiv in university and so I didn't see them a whole lot. But it was a great way to, uh, it was part of really the language and the culture and history. It's you get a look into all of that and especially with the language of just being immersed in that environment and the TV has Ukrainian on or really forcing us to communicate needs in Ukrainian. And it was, uh, you know, by the end of training we were a family.

[Assistant] Very good. Did anyone from Peace Corps Washington come to your training either prior to going to your training city or at any time?

[User] I don't believe so. Anyone from Peace Corps? I don't remember seeing really anyone from Peace Corps Washington during training at all. There were a few U.S. staff based in Kyiv and at least one of them came to visit our particular training site.

[Assistant] So there was a Peace Corps staff in country?

[User] Correct. There are three of them.

[Assistant] At what point did you find out what area of the country you'd be going to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't believe so. Anyone from Peace Corps? I don't remember seeing really anyone from Peace Corps Washington during training at all. There were a few U.S. staff based in Kyiv and at least one of them came to visit our particular training site.

[Assistant] So there was a Peace Corps staff in country?

[User] Correct. There are three of them.

[Assistant] At what point did you find out what area of the country you'd be going to?

[User] So we actually found out at the transition slash the swearing in conference. So after we had gone through the ten weeks or so of training, we made it to June, and all the volunteers gathered in Kyiv and we had two or three, maybe even four day conference. And it was there that we found out where we were going, and we'd all been anxiously waiting to hear for a long time at that point.

[Assistant] Now, did everybody make it through the training or were there some that did not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. There are three of them.

[Assistant] At what point did you find out what area of the country you'd be going to?

[User] So we actually found out at the transition slash the swearing in conference. So after we had gone through the ten weeks or so of training, we made it to June, and all the volunteers gathered in Kyiv and we had two or three, maybe even four day conference. And it was there that we found out where we were going, and we'd all been anxiously waiting to hear for a long time at that point.

[Assistant] Now, did everybody make it through the training or were there some that did not?

[User] There were a few that did not. I want to say there were probably about three that did not make it through for various reasons.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Was there are any kind of peer ratings of other trainees or was it all done by staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we actually found out at the transition slash the swearing in conference. So after we had gone through the ten weeks or so of training, we made it to June, and all the volunteers gathered in Kyiv and we had two or three, maybe even four day conference. And it was there that we found out where we were going, and we'd all been anxiously waiting to hear for a long time at that point.

[Assistant] Now, did everybody make it through the training or were there some that did not?

[User] There were a few that did not. I want to say there were probably about three that did not make it through for various reasons.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Was there are any kind of peer ratings of other trainees or was it all done by staff?

[User] In terms of, yeah, in terms of evaluation that was all from the staff.

[Assistant] Was there any knowledge among the group of trainees that there was a possibility you could not be sworn in or you might be sent back to the States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were a few that did not. I want to say there were probably about three that did not make it through for various reasons.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Was there are any kind of peer ratings of other trainees or was it all done by staff?

[User] In terms of, yeah, in terms of evaluation that was all from the staff.

[Assistant] Was there any knowledge among the group of trainees that there was a possibility you could not be sworn in or you might be sent back to the States?

[User] I don't think. That was not a feeling that I picked up on and or a conversation that I had with anyone, just from my experience. That was not something I came across.

[Assistant] So your feeling was during the training that it was just a process that you had to get through, and you were going to get through it and take your assignment and run with it, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In terms of, yeah, in terms of evaluation that was all from the staff.

[Assistant] Was there any knowledge among the group of trainees that there was a possibility you could not be sworn in or you might be sent back to the States?

[User] I don't think. That was not a feeling that I picked up on and or a conversation that I had with anyone, just from my experience. That was not something I came across.

[Assistant] So your feeling was during the training that it was just a process that you had to get through, and you were going to get through it and take your assignment and run with it, right?

[User] Yeah. Because I really feel people wanted to be there and people were, and especially with a close group of volunteers around you to support you and push you when needed, that just everyone was going to make it through. And, you know, that's what we were there to do was to, uh, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. And but yeah, there was no fear that I picked up on in that regard.

[Assistant] How did, uh, about your contact with home. What were you telling your family during the training time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think. That was not a feeling that I picked up on and or a conversation that I had with anyone, just from my experience. That was not something I came across.

[Assistant] So your feeling was during the training that it was just a process that you had to get through, and you were going to get through it and take your assignment and run with it, right?

[User] Yeah. Because I really feel people wanted to be there and people were, and especially with a close group of volunteers around you to support you and push you when needed, that just everyone was going to make it through. And, you know, that's what we were there to do was to, uh, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. And but yeah, there was no fear that I picked up on in that regard.

[Assistant] How did, uh, about your contact with home. What were you telling your family during the training time?

[User] I want to say I talked to them probably once a month during training. I was able to get them on phone one way or another, and a few emails here and there when we went into the larger cities. But I was just kind of, I was taking in things. There was so much to be processed, being in a new country and new language and new weather and everything was new. And so just trying to process it and cut that down to a way where they could understand and get a glimpse into what I was experiencing.

[Assistant] Did you develop any friendships with people in the training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Because I really feel people wanted to be there and people were, and especially with a close group of volunteers around you to support you and push you when needed, that just everyone was going to make it through. And, you know, that's what we were there to do was to, uh, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. And but yeah, there was no fear that I picked up on in that regard.

[Assistant] How did, uh, about your contact with home. What were you telling your family during the training time?

[User] I want to say I talked to them probably once a month during training. I was able to get them on phone one way or another, and a few emails here and there when we went into the larger cities. But I was just kind of, I was taking in things. There was so much to be processed, being in a new country and new language and new weather and everything was new. And so just trying to process it and cut that down to a way where they could understand and get a glimpse into what I was experiencing.

[Assistant] Did you develop any friendships with people in the training group?

[User] Absolutely. I am still in touch more or less with all four of them and saw one of them just the end of August, so a couple of months ago. So definitely. Definitely some lifelong friends from the training group and other Peace Corps volunteers as well.

[Assistant] Any other comments about training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want to say I talked to them probably once a month during training. I was able to get them on phone one way or another, and a few emails here and there when we went into the larger cities. But I was just kind of, I was taking in things. There was so much to be processed, being in a new country and new language and new weather and everything was new. And so just trying to process it and cut that down to a way where they could understand and get a glimpse into what I was experiencing.

[Assistant] Did you develop any friendships with people in the training group?

[User] Absolutely. I am still in touch more or less with all four of them and saw one of them just the end of August, so a couple of months ago. So definitely. Definitely some lifelong friends from the training group and other Peace Corps volunteers as well.

[Assistant] Any other comments about training?

[User] I think one other thing that sticks out for my training experience was there was a group of children probably, uh, higher elementary school, lower middle school in that age group, that lived on the street that two of the host families were stationed. And we ended up playing a lot of games and a lot of soccer with them after the day's lessons were over. And that was just really incredible. And that it was youth development in its own way. It was a chance for us to just play sports and have fun and connect with these kids without that language barrier. And that was a favorite memory from training. And when every time we went back to Semenivka, I ended up playing with them and hanging out for the afternoon.

[Assistant] After training, was there any kind of break? You stayed in country or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. I am still in touch more or less with all four of them and saw one of them just the end of August, so a couple of months ago. So definitely. Definitely some lifelong friends from the training group and other Peace Corps volunteers as well.

[Assistant] Any other comments about training?

[User] I think one other thing that sticks out for my training experience was there was a group of children probably, uh, higher elementary school, lower middle school in that age group, that lived on the street that two of the host families were stationed. And we ended up playing a lot of games and a lot of soccer with them after the day's lessons were over. And that was just really incredible. And that it was youth development in its own way. It was a chance for us to just play sports and have fun and connect with these kids without that language barrier. And that was a favorite memory from training. And when every time we went back to Semenivka, I ended up playing with them and hanging out for the afternoon.

[Assistant] After training, was there any kind of break? You stayed in country or?

[User] Correct. Yeah. From so from training, the three or four day swearing in conference, and then right to our sites.

[Assistant] And so when you left the U.S., what was your route to get to Ukraine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think one other thing that sticks out for my training experience was there was a group of children probably, uh, higher elementary school, lower middle school in that age group, that lived on the street that two of the host families were stationed. And we ended up playing a lot of games and a lot of soccer with them after the day's lessons were over. And that was just really incredible. And that it was youth development in its own way. It was a chance for us to just play sports and have fun and connect with these kids without that language barrier. And that was a favorite memory from training. And when every time we went back to Semenivka, I ended up playing with them and hanging out for the afternoon.

[Assistant] After training, was there any kind of break? You stayed in country or?

[User] Correct. Yeah. From so from training, the three or four day swearing in conference, and then right to our sites.

[Assistant] And so when you left the U.S., what was your route to get to Ukraine?

[User] The route to get to Ukraine. We all the volunteers in our group met in Washington, D.C., [coughs] excuse me. And then from there, I believe we flew to Frankfurt, Germany, and from Frankfurt on to Kyiv.

[Assistant] I see. So there was a pretty long flight. When you got to Kyiv, was there any ceremony or anything, anybody to greet you or at the airport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. Yeah. From so from training, the three or four day swearing in conference, and then right to our sites.

[Assistant] And so when you left the U.S., what was your route to get to Ukraine?

[User] The route to get to Ukraine. We all the volunteers in our group met in Washington, D.C., [coughs] excuse me. And then from there, I believe we flew to Frankfurt, Germany, and from Frankfurt on to Kyiv.

[Assistant] I see. So there was a pretty long flight. When you got to Kyiv, was there any ceremony or anything, anybody to greet you or at the airport?

[User] Yeah, there were a few Peace Corps staff there, and they had signs and there was one staff member collecting our passports. So that was kind of a test of trust, it was just, oh, here's our passport. But it worked out.

[Assistant] Do you remember who the country director was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The route to get to Ukraine. We all the volunteers in our group met in Washington, D.C., [coughs] excuse me. And then from there, I believe we flew to Frankfurt, Germany, and from Frankfurt on to Kyiv.

[Assistant] I see. So there was a pretty long flight. When you got to Kyiv, was there any ceremony or anything, anybody to greet you or at the airport?

[User] Yeah, there were a few Peace Corps staff there, and they had signs and there was one staff member collecting our passports. So that was kind of a test of trust, it was just, oh, here's our passport. But it worked out.

[Assistant] Do you remember who the country director was?

[User] Absolutely. It was Douglas Teschner.

[Assistant] What kind of guy was he?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there were a few Peace Corps staff there, and they had signs and there was one staff member collecting our passports. So that was kind of a test of trust, it was just, oh, here's our passport. But it worked out.

[Assistant] Do you remember who the country director was?

[User] Absolutely. It was Douglas Teschner.

[Assistant] What kind of guy was he?

[User] He was great. He's very energetic, well-spoken, very positive all the time. And I think he was a former state or local politician, but absolutely a big believer in the mission. Was very, very responsive to volunteers' needs and to emails. I can't imagine how many emails he got a day, but he'd always respond. And that was a great feeling for me being in a new place. And he is actually a country director in I want to say Sierra Leone now, but he's still, he's still doing it.

[Assistant] So after you, um. At what point did you feel comfortable speaking the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. It was Douglas Teschner.

[Assistant] What kind of guy was he?

[User] He was great. He's very energetic, well-spoken, very positive all the time. And I think he was a former state or local politician, but absolutely a big believer in the mission. Was very, very responsive to volunteers' needs and to emails. I can't imagine how many emails he got a day, but he'd always respond. And that was a great feeling for me being in a new place. And he is actually a country director in I want to say Sierra Leone now, but he's still, he's still doing it.

[Assistant] So after you, um. At what point did you feel comfortable speaking the language?

[User] I think I felt comfortable going, uh, going into after training into my site having tested at intermediate high. That was, I felt good about the language in general and that was a good kind of affirmation of OK, you've done some work, you've learned some things. So I felt comfortable. I think when I remember specifically this meeting I had with my school director in November of that first year at site, November 2010. And when we had a discussion, just my director and I, about an HIV AIDS project or some ideas for the HIV AIDS Awareness Week or Day, and I understood that whole conversation taking it through. And that's when I was like, OK, now I've really got this language thing down.

[Assistant] Did you get any ongoing language training or was the initial shot, was that it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So we had volunteers throughout the training process from the arrival retreat. Someone came in and spoke to us. I'm actually still good friends with her. And she's now out in Seattle. And then during the training, we had a couple of people, I guess one person had adopted a cluster program. So the volunteer who is currently at site would adopt a particular cluster of the trainings and go and visit them and talk to them and share experiences, answer questions, etc. And then as well, at the swearing in conference, several volunteers came to speak about different initiatives within the Peace Corps organization that volunteers could connect with.

[Assistant] So when you were on site, what provisions were there in case of emergency, what to do or who to contact?

[User] So with an emergency, we had a handbook of what, you know, what the process was. Numbers to call within Peace Corps and as well as. So, yeah, the handbook, the numbers to call, who to contact. As well as within the first week at site in Rudky and as well as the volunteers at their sites all across the country. We needed to get up with the local police and introduce ourself, get their contact information, draw a map of our town for our own benefit, understand the ways to get out of town to local districts or larger cities, and how to get to Kyiv, etc. So we were given some information on one hand and then also had a very strict assignment of finding out certain information on our own in case something did happen.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. During orientation, was there any mention of the political situation in the country?

[User] Yes, they did review current politics to some extent.

[Assistant] But at that time, things were pretty stable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So with an emergency, we had a handbook of what, you know, what the process was. Numbers to call within Peace Corps and as well as. So, yeah, the handbook, the numbers to call, who to contact. As well as within the first week at site in Rudky and as well as the volunteers at their sites all across the country. We needed to get up with the local police and introduce ourself, get their contact information, draw a map of our town for our own benefit, understand the ways to get out of town to local districts or larger cities, and how to get to Kyiv, etc. So we were given some information on one hand and then also had a very strict assignment of finding out certain information on our own in case something did happen.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. During orientation, was there any mention of the political situation in the country?

[User] Yes, they did review current politics to some extent.

[Assistant] But at that time, things were pretty stable?

[User] Yeah. You know, in 2010, the president I think had just been, President Viktor Yanukovych had just been elected within the past couple months. And so everything was relatively stable and, yeah.

[Assistant] So in your talking about your assignment, was there any choice involved or preference for a particular assignment? Anybody on the staff ask you about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did review current politics to some extent.

[Assistant] But at that time, things were pretty stable?

[User] Yeah. You know, in 2010, the president I think had just been, President Viktor Yanukovych had just been elected within the past couple months. And so everything was relatively stable and, yeah.

[Assistant] So in your talking about your assignment, was there any choice involved or preference for a particular assignment? Anybody on the staff ask you about that?

[User] Yeah. So I think during week six or so of the ten weeks of training, we had site interviews with some two or three members of the Peace Corps staff. So they'd ask us some questions, more about our background, what we're interested in doing here in Ukraine. How's training going? Because they have all the sites in their minds and then getting to know us better, they were able to piece together what would be good fits. And so they asked us certain preferences on what kind of work we'd be doing, what kind of the size of a city we might want to live in, host family or no host family. So they took that into mind while making their decisions. But we by no means could directly choose something. It was here are our general preferences. And then they made the final decisions.

[Assistant] So the place where you ended up. Tell us a little bit about it, its geography, how far it was from the big city.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. I would say the terrain. Generally it was kind of a forest area, I would say, is the best way to describe it. Relatively flat, although there were some almost rolls. Because in the western Ukraine is also where the Carpathian Mountains are. So it's relatively close to that area. So it wasn't completely flat. And then as far as what people did for a living, so the school. There's also a hospital. And now I'm thinking of these other aspects of the town, but a small college and the shops as well. So the educational institutions, the shops, and the hospital were all the major places of employment. And there was a significant number of people who would take the bus an hour to Lviv and back every day to go work in Lviv.

[Assistant] You mentioned the bus. That's the way you got to your assignment?

[User] Yes, absolutely. And we took, originally we took a train from Kyiv to Lviv and then from Lviv to took a bus to Rudky. And that's absolutely the main form of transportation I used, although if I had to go across the country or halfway across the country, it was train was the choice then.

[Assistant] When you got to Rudky, did somebody meet you and pick you up?

[User] Well, actually at the swearing in conference, we had what was called a counterpart or like a representative from the organization who would be our primary contact for the two years. And so this person, Oksana Valerivna, met me in Kyiv and then we traveled by train together to Lviv. In Lviv, my host organization, the secondary school, had sent the bus, their school bus, to Lviv to pick me up and Oksana. So we, Oksana and I and the bus driver, we all drove back to Rudky. And there was my host grandmother was waiting for me in her house.

[Assistant] So were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, absolutely. And we took, originally we took a train from Kyiv to Lviv and then from Lviv to took a bus to Rudky. And that's absolutely the main form of transportation I used, although if I had to go across the country or halfway across the country, it was train was the choice then.

[Assistant] When you got to Rudky, did somebody meet you and pick you up?

[User] Well, actually at the swearing in conference, we had what was called a counterpart or like a representative from the organization who would be our primary contact for the two years. And so this person, Oksana Valerivna, met me in Kyiv and then we traveled by train together to Lviv. In Lviv, my host organization, the secondary school, had sent the bus, their school bus, to Lviv to pick me up and Oksana. So we, Oksana and I and the bus driver, we all drove back to Rudky. And there was my host grandmother was waiting for me in her house.

[Assistant] So were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?

[User] Yes. There had been another one previously who worked at the gymnasium, kind of the other school option that I mentioned. But she and she did not stay the entire time. She had gone home early.

[Assistant] And so how close was the nearest Peace Corps volunteer? Other Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually at the swearing in conference, we had what was called a counterpart or like a representative from the organization who would be our primary contact for the two years. And so this person, Oksana Valerivna, met me in Kyiv and then we traveled by train together to Lviv. In Lviv, my host organization, the secondary school, had sent the bus, their school bus, to Lviv to pick me up and Oksana. So we, Oksana and I and the bus driver, we all drove back to Rudky. And there was my host grandmother was waiting for me in her house.

[Assistant] So were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?

[User] Yes. There had been another one previously who worked at the gymnasium, kind of the other school option that I mentioned. But she and she did not stay the entire time. She had gone home early.

[Assistant] And so how close was the nearest Peace Corps volunteer? Other Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] The closest one was about 20 minutes by bus. There was a bunch of us in the Lviv Oblast, the Lviv region.

[Assistant] OK. So after the time you'd spent in training, socializing with the group members, was it a little bit wrenching to be on your own and out in the boonies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There had been another one previously who worked at the gymnasium, kind of the other school option that I mentioned. But she and she did not stay the entire time. She had gone home early.

[Assistant] And so how close was the nearest Peace Corps volunteer? Other Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] The closest one was about 20 minutes by bus. There was a bunch of us in the Lviv Oblast, the Lviv region.

[Assistant] OK. So after the time you'd spent in training, socializing with the group members, was it a little bit wrenching to be on your own and out in the boonies?

[User] Yes. After ten weeks in Semenivka, it was kind of at the point of I was feeling, starting to feel comfortable at that point, and as well as with being with a few volunteers to kind of have that connection to home every day. And then so when it came time to leave that after, it's like, OK, here we go to another transition. I thought we had just done this. And then getting to Rudky I remember I kind of asked myself the same question as I did at the arrival retreat of what have I gotten myself into? And I'm going to be here for two years. You know, I'm okay with the language, but I don't know anyone. I don't know what I'm going to do with work. What difference can I make? Type questions when I got there. So it was tough in some ways, but the overwhelming hospitality of Rudky made that transition a lot easier.

[Assistant] So there was telephone service to the town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The closest one was about 20 minutes by bus. There was a bunch of us in the Lviv Oblast, the Lviv region.

[Assistant] OK. So after the time you'd spent in training, socializing with the group members, was it a little bit wrenching to be on your own and out in the boonies?

[User] Yes. After ten weeks in Semenivka, it was kind of at the point of I was feeling, starting to feel comfortable at that point, and as well as with being with a few volunteers to kind of have that connection to home every day. And then so when it came time to leave that after, it's like, OK, here we go to another transition. I thought we had just done this. And then getting to Rudky I remember I kind of asked myself the same question as I did at the arrival retreat of what have I gotten myself into? And I'm going to be here for two years. You know, I'm okay with the language, but I don't know anyone. I don't know what I'm going to do with work. What difference can I make? Type questions when I got there. So it was tough in some ways, but the overwhelming hospitality of Rudky made that transition a lot easier.

[Assistant] So there was telephone service to the town.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. So tell us a little bit about your living conditions and settling into your home with your host family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. So tell us a little bit about your living conditions and settling into your home with your host family.

[User]
So I lived with a host grandmother, Sophia, and she's in her seventies. She actually spent a few years in the United States. She came and worked in New Jersey, I believe it was, for about three or four years, but was with Ukrainian community and with Ukrainian families and actually learned very little English. Which was fine because, again, she was one of my main teachers of Ukrainian and just listening to her talk and tell stories. But she was, I still remember the first time, she just, ah. Despite being in her 70s, she's just so energetic and so warm and she's just standing out on her porch like I think she's started reciting a Ukrainian poem that she loves to do and welcomed me in and had this huge meal prepared, which was definitely a foreshadowing of things to come for the next two and a half years. But so I knew I was in good hands right away.

And I actually had two very comfortable rooms to myself. I still I think I still argue that I slept better in that bed than I have at any other location in my life. And so I had this kind of bedroom and then the dining room, and then Sophia had her two rooms and we shared a kitchen and shared a bathroom. And it was because of her work in the States, she was able to do some significant renovations on her house and it was very, very comfortable. And I would say very much what I grew up with. And so the living condition was, um, I'd say physically by no means a challenge.

[Assistant] OK. So you had the modern conveniences?

[User] Yeah, absolutely. We even had a laundry machine. And so it was, yeah, I was very blessed in that area.

[Assistant] How about access to radio or TV?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, absolutely. We even had a laundry machine. And so it was, yeah, I was very blessed in that area.

[Assistant] How about access to radio or TV?

[User] So Sofia had a TV with probably ten channels on it that I would watch every now and then. She usually had the radio going, especially during the summer when she was out working in her garden. And then with internet, I bought a kind of like a travel modem that I used for the first probably half year at site. And then after just kind of becoming frustrated with it, I had a satellite installed and that actually was something that became available while I was there. So the satellite wasn't available when I first got to Rudky but I got that installed. And so internet was probably my main source of electronic connection.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps provide you with a computer or did you have your own?

[User] They did not. And a lot of the prep materials for coming to Ukraine, they suggested bringing it, or at least most of the volunteers I talked to suggested bringing it. So I brought my own personal one. And it's, yeah, it's not something that they had provided.

[Assistant] Had your host grandmother hosted a Peace Corps volunteer previously?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So Sofia had a TV with probably ten channels on it that I would watch every now and then. She usually had the radio going, especially during the summer when she was out working in her garden. And then with internet, I bought a kind of like a travel modem that I used for the first probably half year at site. And then after just kind of becoming frustrated with it, I had a satellite installed and that actually was something that became available while I was there. So the satellite wasn't available when I first got to Rudky but I got that installed. And so internet was probably my main source of electronic connection.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps provide you with a computer or did you have your own?

[User] They did not. And a lot of the prep materials for coming to Ukraine, they suggested bringing it, or at least most of the volunteers I talked to suggested bringing it. So I brought my own personal one. And it's, yeah, it's not something that they had provided.

[Assistant] Had your host grandmother hosted a Peace Corps volunteer previously?

[User] No, I was her first, her first guest in that regard.

[Assistant] Did you do your own shopping and cooking and cleaning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did not. And a lot of the prep materials for coming to Ukraine, they suggested bringing it, or at least most of the volunteers I talked to suggested bringing it. So I brought my own personal one. And it's, yeah, it's not something that they had provided.

[Assistant] Had your host grandmother hosted a Peace Corps volunteer previously?

[User] No, I was her first, her first guest in that regard.

[Assistant] Did you do your own shopping and cooking and cleaning?

[User] I did get to help out with a lot of the shopping. I would. As Sophia got older, she was able to send me like with a list of things to get in town and I was able to pick that up and did some shopping for myself as well. She was, um, I guess, very traditional in terms of cleaning and cooking and that as a man I was not supposed to do any of that. Which was, it was a mixture, I would say, almost of some frustration at times of not having that independence, but also just really being grateful for how good care she was taking of me. And it was always funny. If I went into the kitchen to maybe put a dish away or do something, if I was in the kitchen, it meant I was hungry. And so she would start either asking or just start cooking something anyway. So it was always a game.

[Assistant] What were the shopping facilities like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was her first, her first guest in that regard.

[Assistant] Did you do your own shopping and cooking and cleaning?

[User] I did get to help out with a lot of the shopping. I would. As Sophia got older, she was able to send me like with a list of things to get in town and I was able to pick that up and did some shopping for myself as well. She was, um, I guess, very traditional in terms of cleaning and cooking and that as a man I was not supposed to do any of that. Which was, it was a mixture, I would say, almost of some frustration at times of not having that independence, but also just really being grateful for how good care she was taking of me. And it was always funny. If I went into the kitchen to maybe put a dish away or do something, if I was in the kitchen, it meant I was hungry. And so she would start either asking or just start cooking something anyway. So it was always a game.

[Assistant] What were the shopping facilities like?

[User] In Rudky, they didn't have any of, anything comparable to Food Lion or Harris Teeter or what we might know. They had, I would say, almost little shops that are comparable to maybe like a market or like a gas station convenience store. But they had meats and fruits and bread and chips and water and everything that you would need, and eggs, but just very small size. And they did have what they called a bazaar, almost like a farmers’ market, that ran pretty much every day where you could buy anything you need in terms of food or clothes and other items that you just might need to grab.

[Assistant] So your settling in period, at what point were you would you say you were settled, you were comfortable, adjusted to the climate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did get to help out with a lot of the shopping. I would. As Sophia got older, she was able to send me like with a list of things to get in town and I was able to pick that up and did some shopping for myself as well. She was, um, I guess, very traditional in terms of cleaning and cooking and that as a man I was not supposed to do any of that. Which was, it was a mixture, I would say, almost of some frustration at times of not having that independence, but also just really being grateful for how good care she was taking of me. And it was always funny. If I went into the kitchen to maybe put a dish away or do something, if I was in the kitchen, it meant I was hungry. And so she would start either asking or just start cooking something anyway. So it was always a game.

[Assistant] What were the shopping facilities like?

[User] In Rudky, they didn't have any of, anything comparable to Food Lion or Harris Teeter or what we might know. They had, I would say, almost little shops that are comparable to maybe like a market or like a gas station convenience store. But they had meats and fruits and bread and chips and water and everything that you would need, and eggs, but just very small size. And they did have what they called a bazaar, almost like a farmers’ market, that ran pretty much every day where you could buy anything you need in terms of food or clothes and other items that you just might need to grab.

[Assistant] So your settling in period, at what point were you would you say you were settled, you were comfortable, adjusted to the climate?

[User] I would say probably about a month or two. So we got there, I think it was mid-June, so maybe late July or into early August. I felt, OK, this is my, this is my home.

[Assistant] So in June, is that the warm time of the year in Ukraine or are the seasons are different than they are here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Rudky, they didn't have any of, anything comparable to Food Lion or Harris Teeter or what we might know. They had, I would say, almost little shops that are comparable to maybe like a market or like a gas station convenience store. But they had meats and fruits and bread and chips and water and everything that you would need, and eggs, but just very small size. And they did have what they called a bazaar, almost like a farmers’ market, that ran pretty much every day where you could buy anything you need in terms of food or clothes and other items that you just might need to grab.

[Assistant] So your settling in period, at what point were you would you say you were settled, you were comfortable, adjusted to the climate?

[User] I would say probably about a month or two. So we got there, I think it was mid-June, so maybe late July or into early August. I felt, OK, this is my, this is my home.

[Assistant] So in June, is that the warm time of the year in Ukraine or are the seasons are different than they are here?

[User] Yeah, the seasons. The seasons match up right with what we experience here in the States.

[Assistant] Was your health OK at that time? Did you have any health issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say probably about a month or two. So we got there, I think it was mid-June, so maybe late July or into early August. I felt, OK, this is my, this is my home.

[Assistant] So in June, is that the warm time of the year in Ukraine or are the seasons are different than they are here?

[User] Yeah, the seasons. The seasons match up right with what we experience here in the States.

[Assistant] Was your health OK at that time? Did you have any health issues?

[User] At this time, I had no health issues, this first summer, but I did severely sprain my ankle on a hill. And that was frustrating because it limited my mobility in a time where I had a lot of time because school was out and was, you know, it would have been nice to really get out and talk to people and have conversations. But so that was a test of patience, certainly.

[Assistant] Tell us a little about the school that you were working in conjunction with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the seasons. The seasons match up right with what we experience here in the States.

[Assistant] Was your health OK at that time? Did you have any health issues?

[User] At this time, I had no health issues, this first summer, but I did severely sprain my ankle on a hill. And that was frustrating because it limited my mobility in a time where I had a lot of time because school was out and was, you know, it would have been nice to really get out and talk to people and have conversations. But so that was a test of patience, certainly.

[Assistant] Tell us a little about the school that you were working in conjunction with.

[User] So the school had about 500 students, about 75 or so teachers. I think that also included maintenance workers and other all staff of the school. At its peak actually had 1,200 students, but due to just lower in general of people moving out of Ukraine and out of Rudky as well as the opening of the gymnasium, that second school, it was down to 500 students. Oh yeah, a secondary school. So it was first grade through 11th grade is what they go through in Ukraine. And a school that had gotten a lot of, already a lot of recognition, I think, in the region for what they were doing, as well as possibly around Ukraine as a whole.

[Assistant] Did the students, were they all local from the town or did they come from the surrounding area as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At this time, I had no health issues, this first summer, but I did severely sprain my ankle on a hill. And that was frustrating because it limited my mobility in a time where I had a lot of time because school was out and was, you know, it would have been nice to really get out and talk to people and have conversations. But so that was a test of patience, certainly.

[Assistant] Tell us a little about the school that you were working in conjunction with.

[User] So the school had about 500 students, about 75 or so teachers. I think that also included maintenance workers and other all staff of the school. At its peak actually had 1,200 students, but due to just lower in general of people moving out of Ukraine and out of Rudky as well as the opening of the gymnasium, that second school, it was down to 500 students. Oh yeah, a secondary school. So it was first grade through 11th grade is what they go through in Ukraine. And a school that had gotten a lot of, already a lot of recognition, I think, in the region for what they were doing, as well as possibly around Ukraine as a whole.

[Assistant] Did the students, were they all local from the town or did they come from the surrounding area as well?

[User] As far as I know, they're all from the town of Rudky.

[Assistant] And how many other teachers on the faculty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the school had about 500 students, about 75 or so teachers. I think that also included maintenance workers and other all staff of the school. At its peak actually had 1,200 students, but due to just lower in general of people moving out of Ukraine and out of Rudky as well as the opening of the gymnasium, that second school, it was down to 500 students. Oh yeah, a secondary school. So it was first grade through 11th grade is what they go through in Ukraine. And a school that had gotten a lot of, already a lot of recognition, I think, in the region for what they were doing, as well as possibly around Ukraine as a whole.

[Assistant] Did the students, were they all local from the town or did they come from the surrounding area as well?

[User] As far as I know, they're all from the town of Rudky.

[Assistant] And how many other teachers on the faculty?

[User] So teachers is probably 50 to 60 out of the 75 staff.

[Assistant] Were there any other non Ukrainian Europeans or? As teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as I know, they're all from the town of Rudky.

[Assistant] And how many other teachers on the faculty?

[User] So teachers is probably 50 to 60 out of the 75 staff.

[Assistant] Were there any other non Ukrainian Europeans or? As teachers?

[User] No, no. They were all Ukrainian.

[Assistant] So the kind of work you were doing, was it straight teaching of a subject? Did you have more of a youth development spin to what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So teachers is probably 50 to 60 out of the 75 staff.

[Assistant] Were there any other non Ukrainian Europeans or? As teachers?

[User] No, no. They were all Ukrainian.

[Assistant] So the kind of work you were doing, was it straight teaching of a subject? Did you have more of a youth development spin to what you were doing?

[User]
So I, yeah, I think I would say I had absolutely the youth development spin. I did not have any classes per se. My work during the day, I went around to a lot of different classes, whether it be to sit in on a Ukrainian class and learn some Ukrainian. I helped a lot of the English teachers with their classes. I sat with a psychologist and we would plan ideas and projects and activities together. So the majority of my work came after school for extracurricular clubs and extracurricular activities in which I held a leadership club, English clubs, both at the school and in town, and as well as some sporting clubs were kind of my primary weekly activities. Additionally, again, I mentioned the partnership with the psychologist. We put together a lot of interactive trainings on youth development topics such as leadership, HIV AIDS, human trafficking, understanding people with disabilities more efficiently and more effectively.

So all kinds of these trainings to give during special events and special days, or come in and teach and do a kind of a substitute or guest teaching experience. And also some of my work involved just meeting with these different organizations of the community and seeing where I might be able to get involved there and connecting people together who had similar goals. So it was something different every day. And I really loved that variety as well of just seeing the, of trying to give the youth more opportunities in a town where there wasn't a whole lot for them to do.

[Assistant] So the after school clubs and athletics, what would some of the typical activities of that type of club do besides play soccer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd say yeah. There's probably a pretty good variety of what students are planning after the completion of secondary school. I think most of the ones I worked with in my clubs were planning to go to university. So that's what I remember the most of hearing.

[Assistant] How was discipline handled in the school?

[User] I think what I witnessed in my school and in most Ukrainian schools was that there weren't a whole lot of punishments for misbehavior or not doing an assignment per se. And as far as I know, I'm not sure if students can even really fail technically. And so I think the most frequent punishment was a good scolding or calling out in class. Calling them out in class.

[Assistant] Did the headmaster of the school, was he or she a participant in any of your activities or supportive of what you were doing?

[User] The director, principal, yeah. So she, Nadia, was very supportive of me being there and gave me a lot of freedom in my work and but also wasn't afraid to ask for certain things and request certain things of me. So I felt we had a great working relationship and she was so busy that she was tough to get a hold of sometimes and talk with and discuss some ideas, but always made the effort to talk with me. And we ended up doing, I guess, a couple events or classes together. But the majority of it was we didn't work directly together on a lot of things, but were always in communication about what we're up to respectively and ended up at a lot of events together, but just doing kind of separate things within that particular event.

[Assistant] So you got to your school after language training. And how long was it before you felt like you were accepted in being a part of the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think what I witnessed in my school and in most Ukrainian schools was that there weren't a whole lot of punishments for misbehavior or not doing an assignment per se. And as far as I know, I'm not sure if students can even really fail technically. And so I think the most frequent punishment was a good scolding or calling out in class. Calling them out in class.

[Assistant] Did the headmaster of the school, was he or she a participant in any of your activities or supportive of what you were doing?

[User] The director, principal, yeah. So she, Nadia, was very supportive of me being there and gave me a lot of freedom in my work and but also wasn't afraid to ask for certain things and request certain things of me. So I felt we had a great working relationship and she was so busy that she was tough to get a hold of sometimes and talk with and discuss some ideas, but always made the effort to talk with me. And we ended up doing, I guess, a couple events or classes together. But the majority of it was we didn't work directly together on a lot of things, but were always in communication about what we're up to respectively and ended up at a lot of events together, but just doing kind of separate things within that particular event.

[Assistant] So you got to your school after language training. And how long was it before you felt like you were accepted in being a part of the program?

[User] Uh, the program being?

[Assistant] The ongoing activities of the school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, the program being?

[Assistant] The ongoing activities of the school.

[User] Oh, being accepted kind of at the school as a?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User]
I feel like. Uh. I really feel for the most part, just right away. They had on my first day there. I had mentioned a little earlier about how my host grandmother Sophia greeted me that morning on the steps. I had time to get a shower and shave. And from there, we went to the school and I thought I was just going to kind of be a meeting with the principal and maybe a tour of the school. And at this point, I'm exhausted from the train ride. I didn't, I ended up sleeping eventually great on trains, but that first train I didn't sleep anything, you know, didn't sleep a wink. But we go to the school and the students have prepared this huge welcome concert and celebration that I've, you know, the U.S., the U.S. guy is here. And so they had PowerPoint presentations about their school and they recited poems and had dances and songs and there were multiple teachers and students in attendance. And it was just, it was overwhelming.

They asked me to get up and say a few words in Ukrainian. And so I felt, again, just immediately welcome for the most part. There were a couple of teachers who, you know, it was less than 5%, but they didn't just jump on that welcome wagon right away. And it took, um, it was a year and a half with some of them before I finally kind of had that connection and then those walls were broke down. And there was one particular I remember, Sirhi, who was more standoffish for the longest time, but then we ended up playing a volleyball game together. And that was the end of that, end of that barrier.

[Assistant] How did you get feedback on what you were doing in your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. I think the director was very good at that, about, you know, of being more open with what's, you know, what's working, what's not working. I had a few, after some time, a couple teachers that I really consider, who are also have ended up lifelong friends. Just emailed one of them a couple of weeks ago. That I could really trust and about getting some honest feedback I think. Um. And Ukrainian culture, I think when you're having surface conversations there can be the tendency to just say everything's good, everything's great. When really maybe I could have benefited from some more feedback.

[Assistant] What kind of standards did you use to judge the effectiveness of what you were engaged in as a volunteer?

[User] Hmm. Uh, well, we had a reporting tool that we had to kind of fill out every six months on and report numbers on how many Ukrainians were coming to things. So I took note of that and where the numbers are. And then I guess just a little more informally, I really just observed students and picked up on their physical and verbal cues on what was clicking for them with my work and what was engaging them, and then trying to do more of of what those things were.

[Assistant] Did students ever complain or give you compliments?

[User] Um, again, I think I got a lot of compliments just because I was the U.S. volunteer, I was different. And so everything I did was cool, quote unquote. But definitely, definitely got some complaints when I'd come in to sub for an English class, for example, if the teacher couldn't make it. They're used to maybe more interactive activities with me and it ended up being I had to follow the lesson plan and couldn't do that. So there'd be complaints where being not having my formal class. For most students, I probably ended up more of a big brother or like a friend almost. So when it came time to teach and I had to be stricter, that was, oh Tom, come on, like be fun.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunities to spend time with students outside of the class or club or activities that you'd organized?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Uh, well, we had a reporting tool that we had to kind of fill out every six months on and report numbers on how many Ukrainians were coming to things. So I took note of that and where the numbers are. And then I guess just a little more informally, I really just observed students and picked up on their physical and verbal cues on what was clicking for them with my work and what was engaging them, and then trying to do more of of what those things were.

[Assistant] Did students ever complain or give you compliments?

[User] Um, again, I think I got a lot of compliments just because I was the U.S. volunteer, I was different. And so everything I did was cool, quote unquote. But definitely, definitely got some complaints when I'd come in to sub for an English class, for example, if the teacher couldn't make it. They're used to maybe more interactive activities with me and it ended up being I had to follow the lesson plan and couldn't do that. So there'd be complaints where being not having my formal class. For most students, I probably ended up more of a big brother or like a friend almost. So when it came time to teach and I had to be stricter, that was, oh Tom, come on, like be fun.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunities to spend time with students outside of the class or club or activities that you'd organized?

[User] Yeah, so I did spend a lot of time I think with them, not necessarily in the school. Between they would invite me to like end of the year celebrations and we'd just be sitting and eating dinner together. I'd see them and it's a small town, again, so I'd see them in town and we'd chat, and how's life? And as well as I'd go and play soccer with them a bunch, even though I remain awful at soccer. But it was still just something that we could all do and have fun together with.

[Assistant] So did you feel like you got to know a good number of students when they got to know you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, again, I think I got a lot of compliments just because I was the U.S. volunteer, I was different. And so everything I did was cool, quote unquote. But definitely, definitely got some complaints when I'd come in to sub for an English class, for example, if the teacher couldn't make it. They're used to maybe more interactive activities with me and it ended up being I had to follow the lesson plan and couldn't do that. So there'd be complaints where being not having my formal class. For most students, I probably ended up more of a big brother or like a friend almost. So when it came time to teach and I had to be stricter, that was, oh Tom, come on, like be fun.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunities to spend time with students outside of the class or club or activities that you'd organized?

[User] Yeah, so I did spend a lot of time I think with them, not necessarily in the school. Between they would invite me to like end of the year celebrations and we'd just be sitting and eating dinner together. I'd see them and it's a small town, again, so I'd see them in town and we'd chat, and how's life? And as well as I'd go and play soccer with them a bunch, even though I remain awful at soccer. But it was still just something that we could all do and have fun together with.

[Assistant] So did you feel like you got to know a good number of students when they got to know you?

[User] Yes. I feel like one of the biggest things that Ukrainians gave me, and I hope I gave them in return, was relationships. And so I feel very happy with what I was able to do there and remain in touch with a lot of people.

[Assistant] Did you ever have students come to your home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so I did spend a lot of time I think with them, not necessarily in the school. Between they would invite me to like end of the year celebrations and we'd just be sitting and eating dinner together. I'd see them and it's a small town, again, so I'd see them in town and we'd chat, and how's life? And as well as I'd go and play soccer with them a bunch, even though I remain awful at soccer. But it was still just something that we could all do and have fun together with.

[Assistant] So did you feel like you got to know a good number of students when they got to know you?

[User] Yes. I feel like one of the biggest things that Ukrainians gave me, and I hope I gave them in return, was relationships. And so I feel very happy with what I was able to do there and remain in touch with a lot of people.

[Assistant] Did you ever have students come to your home?

[User] No. That was recommended by Peace Corps not to do. And I was able to follow that guide.

[Assistant] Probably good advice. Develop friendships with other people in town besides folks at school, the faculty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I feel like one of the biggest things that Ukrainians gave me, and I hope I gave them in return, was relationships. And so I feel very happy with what I was able to do there and remain in touch with a lot of people.

[Assistant] Did you ever have students come to your home?

[User] No. That was recommended by Peace Corps not to do. And I was able to follow that guide.

[Assistant] Probably good advice. Develop friendships with other people in town besides folks at school, the faculty?

[User] Yes. Yeah. So I met some people my age through basketball or I had a local kind of restaurant that a lot of people would go to on the weekends and met people there. And so ended up definitely with some good friends my age, older, younger as well, that weren't necessarily connected to the school.

[Assistant] So you had the ability to write emails, to stay in touch with friends and family back in the States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That was recommended by Peace Corps not to do. And I was able to follow that guide.

[Assistant] Probably good advice. Develop friendships with other people in town besides folks at school, the faculty?

[User] Yes. Yeah. So I met some people my age through basketball or I had a local kind of restaurant that a lot of people would go to on the weekends and met people there. And so ended up definitely with some good friends my age, older, younger as well, that weren't necessarily connected to the school.

[Assistant] So you had the ability to write emails, to stay in touch with friends and family back in the States?

[User] I did. And it was, I didn't have internet at the school. So if I had downtime during the day, I would write emails in a Word document. And then back at home in the evening, I could just send them off and be on the internet less time that way.

[Assistant] Did you take a lot of pictures or send photos back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. So I met some people my age through basketball or I had a local kind of restaurant that a lot of people would go to on the weekends and met people there. And so ended up definitely with some good friends my age, older, younger as well, that weren't necessarily connected to the school.

[Assistant] So you had the ability to write emails, to stay in touch with friends and family back in the States?

[User] I did. And it was, I didn't have internet at the school. So if I had downtime during the day, I would write emails in a Word document. And then back at home in the evening, I could just send them off and be on the internet less time that way.

[Assistant] Did you take a lot of pictures or send photos back?

[User] Yes, I took lots and lots of pictures and posted them on, uh, Facebook was my primary way of sharing them. And was able to send links to those albums to people who weren't, who were not on Facebook.

[Assistant] The first Christmas that you were away from home, sometimes that's a little hard for people. Do you remember your first Christmas in Ukraine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. And it was, I didn't have internet at the school. So if I had downtime during the day, I would write emails in a Word document. And then back at home in the evening, I could just send them off and be on the internet less time that way.

[Assistant] Did you take a lot of pictures or send photos back?

[User] Yes, I took lots and lots of pictures and posted them on, uh, Facebook was my primary way of sharing them. And was able to send links to those albums to people who weren't, who were not on Facebook.

[Assistant] The first Christmas that you were away from home, sometimes that's a little hard for people. Do you remember your first Christmas in Ukraine?

[User] Yeah. So actually my first Christmas in Ukraine, I did, or in 2010, I came back to the States for a week to be in the States for that. And then Ukrainians celebrate, I guess it's just Orthodox Christmas, so they celebrate January 7th. And but really, to turn it into the 6th, 7th, 8th, and sometimes 9th. So it's this massive three or four day celebration and I greatly enjoyed that. And then 2011, I spent with friends. In 2012, I was back in the States. So I think for me almost it was Thanksgiving of that first year of 2010 that I really was a moment where I missed being with family.

[Assistant] How was your diet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I took lots and lots of pictures and posted them on, uh, Facebook was my primary way of sharing them. And was able to send links to those albums to people who weren't, who were not on Facebook.

[Assistant] The first Christmas that you were away from home, sometimes that's a little hard for people. Do you remember your first Christmas in Ukraine?

[User] Yeah. So actually my first Christmas in Ukraine, I did, or in 2010, I came back to the States for a week to be in the States for that. And then Ukrainians celebrate, I guess it's just Orthodox Christmas, so they celebrate January 7th. And but really, to turn it into the 6th, 7th, 8th, and sometimes 9th. So it's this massive three or four day celebration and I greatly enjoyed that. And then 2011, I spent with friends. In 2012, I was back in the States. So I think for me almost it was Thanksgiving of that first year of 2010 that I really was a moment where I missed being with family.

[Assistant] How was your diet?

[User] Is full an option of diet? No, I was constantly full in Ukraine. As I mentioned, the hospitality. You will not be cold and you will not be hungry in Ukraine. And my host grandmother Sophia was a phenomenal cook. She cooked all the traditional Ukrainian dishes. Meat and potatoes almost every meal, but in different ways. And bread was with everything. Hot soups and fresh fruits and vegetables during the summer. I just really, the food was simple but just delicious. And I still eat most things with bread to this day because of that experience.

[Assistant] So did you feel any sense, because you were there in town by yourself, the only American, did you feel isolated or out of touch or any kind of culture shock related issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is full an option of diet? No, I was constantly full in Ukraine. As I mentioned, the hospitality. You will not be cold and you will not be hungry in Ukraine. And my host grandmother Sophia was a phenomenal cook. She cooked all the traditional Ukrainian dishes. Meat and potatoes almost every meal, but in different ways. And bread was with everything. Hot soups and fresh fruits and vegetables during the summer. I just really, the food was simple but just delicious. And I still eat most things with bread to this day because of that experience.

[Assistant] So did you feel any sense, because you were there in town by yourself, the only American, did you feel isolated or out of touch or any kind of culture shock related issues?

[User] Yeah, there were definitely times where I just felt like I, uh, there were days where like I'm an outsider, like again, what am I? Who am I? Like, what am I doing here? And there were definitely days like that. And but and at that point, I could usually just call another Peace Corps volunteer, you know, just speaking English for a little while. And that was, I was back to my A-game. And but the majority of the time, I didn't feel that because I just felt this connection to Rudky and the people again after a very short time there and felt at home.

[Assistant] In your free time, what kinds of things did you do?

[User] Hmm. Um, actually I didn't. Looking back at it, I didn't. I kept myself really busy between the school and just intentionally trying to be with people and listen and talk. I think when there was downtime, I enjoyed sitting out with Sophia in her garden, especially during the summer in the evenings, and just listening again to her stories or just enjoying kind of the quiet of the small town. Peace Corps was probably the first time I read for pleasure in years. So that was wonderful. And got to watch, and usually my nightly tradition was to watch an episode or two of Seinfeld or The Office on DVD to just kind of turn the mind off and wind down for a night's rest.

[Assistant] Did you travel any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there were definitely times where I just felt like I, uh, there were days where like I'm an outsider, like again, what am I? Who am I? Like, what am I doing here? And there were definitely days like that. And but and at that point, I could usually just call another Peace Corps volunteer, you know, just speaking English for a little while. And that was, I was back to my A-game. And but the majority of the time, I didn't feel that because I just felt this connection to Rudky and the people again after a very short time there and felt at home.

[Assistant] In your free time, what kinds of things did you do?

[User] Hmm. Um, actually I didn't. Looking back at it, I didn't. I kept myself really busy between the school and just intentionally trying to be with people and listen and talk. I think when there was downtime, I enjoyed sitting out with Sophia in her garden, especially during the summer in the evenings, and just listening again to her stories or just enjoying kind of the quiet of the small town. Peace Corps was probably the first time I read for pleasure in years. So that was wonderful. And got to watch, and usually my nightly tradition was to watch an episode or two of Seinfeld or The Office on DVD to just kind of turn the mind off and wind down for a night's rest.

[Assistant] Did you travel any?

[User] I did. I was very fortunate to be able to travel a lot within Ukraine and see many cities within Ukraine and parts of the country, as well as a good chunk of Europe through several trips.

[Assistant] And what types of transportation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Um, actually I didn't. Looking back at it, I didn't. I kept myself really busy between the school and just intentionally trying to be with people and listen and talk. I think when there was downtime, I enjoyed sitting out with Sophia in her garden, especially during the summer in the evenings, and just listening again to her stories or just enjoying kind of the quiet of the small town. Peace Corps was probably the first time I read for pleasure in years. So that was wonderful. And got to watch, and usually my nightly tradition was to watch an episode or two of Seinfeld or The Office on DVD to just kind of turn the mind off and wind down for a night's rest.

[Assistant] Did you travel any?

[User] I did. I was very fortunate to be able to travel a lot within Ukraine and see many cities within Ukraine and parts of the country, as well as a good chunk of Europe through several trips.

[Assistant] And what types of transportation?

[User] So I think a couple of the trips, um. I know I went on a trip with my brother and I think I flew to Germany and met him there and we went around to several countries and, uh. And so most of these, most of these trips I ended up flying. A couple of them were by, a one was at least by train. We took a train down to Romania one day, took a bus over to Poland. So those border countries, we took trains and busses. But to get a little farther into Europe we're on the plane.

[Assistant] What about the local music and art scene in town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I was very fortunate to be able to travel a lot within Ukraine and see many cities within Ukraine and parts of the country, as well as a good chunk of Europe through several trips.

[Assistant] And what types of transportation?

[User] So I think a couple of the trips, um. I know I went on a trip with my brother and I think I flew to Germany and met him there and we went around to several countries and, uh. And so most of these, most of these trips I ended up flying. A couple of them were by, a one was at least by train. We took a train down to Romania one day, took a bus over to Poland. So those border countries, we took trains and busses. But to get a little farther into Europe we're on the plane.

[Assistant] What about the local music and art scene in town?

[User] I would say with art, I don't have a lot of memories of that. There were, there was a small museum again in Rudky and some museums in the area that carried some art and historical information, I guess to say. And one of the teachers at the school was an artist and had some paintings, and I meant to get a painting of his and just now realizing I didn't. So hopefully one day. And then music, there were lots of concerts and dance performances of local students and local groups and singing events of choruses singing, as well as kind of just like this club European techno dance music that was very popular in clubs that grew on me throughout my time there.

[Assistant] So in your second year, were there any differences between the first and second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think a couple of the trips, um. I know I went on a trip with my brother and I think I flew to Germany and met him there and we went around to several countries and, uh. And so most of these, most of these trips I ended up flying. A couple of them were by, a one was at least by train. We took a train down to Romania one day, took a bus over to Poland. So those border countries, we took trains and busses. But to get a little farther into Europe we're on the plane.

[Assistant] What about the local music and art scene in town?

[User] I would say with art, I don't have a lot of memories of that. There were, there was a small museum again in Rudky and some museums in the area that carried some art and historical information, I guess to say. And one of the teachers at the school was an artist and had some paintings, and I meant to get a painting of his and just now realizing I didn't. So hopefully one day. And then music, there were lots of concerts and dance performances of local students and local groups and singing events of choruses singing, as well as kind of just like this club European techno dance music that was very popular in clubs that grew on me throughout my time there.

[Assistant] So in your second year, were there any differences between the first and second year?

[User] Absolutely. I would say, I mean, I was more confident. My language was better. I knew more people. People, more people knew me. I had gotten a sense of what worked and what wasn't working in terms of my work with the youth. And I just felt, you know, it's like the first year I was figuring things out, trying to get adjusted and being stressed. And the second year is feeling confident and doing, putting, seeing some things come together in really great ways. And oh, like oh my gosh, I'm going home soon.

[Assistant] In that regard, did you have any goals that you wanted to achieve before leaving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. I would say, I mean, I was more confident. My language was better. I knew more people. People, more people knew me. I had gotten a sense of what worked and what wasn't working in terms of my work with the youth. And I just felt, you know, it's like the first year I was figuring things out, trying to get adjusted and being stressed. And the second year is feeling confident and doing, putting, seeing some things come together in really great ways. And oh, like oh my gosh, I'm going home soon.

[Assistant] In that regard, did you have any goals that you wanted to achieve before leaving?

[User] Yeah, absolutely. I had kind of plans and ideas of projects and when I wanted to generally, you know, ideally get them done and who I wanted to involve with it and who to hand more off of it to and to get them in more of leadership roles. And so just kind of and realizing that my time was limited and thinking how much time I had left, I would just be intentional about having conversations with people and expressing my ideas and hearing theirs. And this is how much time I have left. What do you want me to do? Type things, especially with my director. School director, I should say.

[Assistant] So you went, you came back to the U.S. and you were in the States for what period? And then you got into Peace Corps Response.

[User] All right, so I actually my original for, just backtracking real quick to the traditional service, my original end date was June 2012. And I ended up extending that for six months and came home in December. And so I went home in December 2012, having completed my traditional service, was home mostly in North Carolina from the end of December, and was scheduled to go back with Peace Corps Response in February. But due to some visa issues that ended up being pushed to April. Mid April 2013, I returned to Ukraine.

[Assistant] To the same, to Rudky again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, absolutely. I had kind of plans and ideas of projects and when I wanted to generally, you know, ideally get them done and who I wanted to involve with it and who to hand more off of it to and to get them in more of leadership roles. And so just kind of and realizing that my time was limited and thinking how much time I had left, I would just be intentional about having conversations with people and expressing my ideas and hearing theirs. And this is how much time I have left. What do you want me to do? Type things, especially with my director. School director, I should say.

[Assistant] So you went, you came back to the U.S. and you were in the States for what period? And then you got into Peace Corps Response.

[User] All right, so I actually my original for, just backtracking real quick to the traditional service, my original end date was June 2012. And I ended up extending that for six months and came home in December. And so I went home in December 2012, having completed my traditional service, was home mostly in North Carolina from the end of December, and was scheduled to go back with Peace Corps Response in February. But due to some visa issues that ended up being pushed to April. Mid April 2013, I returned to Ukraine.

[Assistant] To the same, to Rudky again?

[User] Oh, no, a good question. That was actually to Kyiv, the capital, and that was where my work was. I was stationed in Kyiv for the last ten months.

[Assistant] OK. Was it the same kind of work or different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll talk about the flights and some of that.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] I feel like I'm telling you more than you ever wanted to know about a lot of things. Like this thing they had about the cross-range and performance, I never could understand what the hell they were trying to accomplish.

[Assistant] That's something I've been looking into a lot, to try to figure out where the cross-range came from.

[User] Really? Well, can you figure it out?

[Assistant] The general idea is, like you said—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I feel like I'm telling you more than you ever wanted to know about a lot of things. Like this thing they had about the cross-range and performance, I never could understand what the hell they were trying to accomplish.

[Assistant] That's something I've been looking into a lot, to try to figure out where the cross-range came from.

[User] Really? Well, can you figure it out?

[Assistant] The general idea is, like you said—

[User] Get back to Vandenberg.

[Assistant] Right. To get back to Vandenberg, because that's how much the Earth rotates after one thing. But, of course, underlying that is the types of missions they need to do that in a singular orbit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really? Well, can you figure it out?

[Assistant] The general idea is, like you said—

[User] Get back to Vandenberg.

[Assistant] Right. To get back to Vandenberg, because that's how much the Earth rotates after one thing. But, of course, underlying that is the types of missions they need to do that in a singular orbit.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Of course, this goes back to the Shuttle design, why we end up with a delta-wing orbiter versus a straight wing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you'll have to make a trip to the Cape some time and see if you can do that.

[Assistant] I saw one on the pad for one of the launches.

[User] If nothing else, when they bring one through Ellington some time, at least go out and watch, to see it sitting on top of the carrier.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] It's huge. Bigger than a DC-9, and that's a pretty good-sized airplane. But the delta wing makes it look even bigger. Definitely proud of it.

[Assistant] And certainly a lot of the people who we've talked to are very proud of it and get a good sense of the challenges that were involved in creating this thing, and once you hear all that, you realize what an achievement that this Shuttle really is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The local area? I don’t really know how to answer the question. I don’t think the local area would have existed in the time frame that it did if we hadn’t been put here, because it was a source of employment, and then all the people that it employed needed services, and it’s there. But if you look at The Woodlands [Texas], it exists, and there’s no NASA up there. I think this area would have developed, also; probably not at that same time frame, but it would have developed. I don’t know of any unique significance NASA has had to this area, except as an employment base. I really don’t.

[Assistant] I just had one other question for you, and I’m not sure if you had any involvement or not. There was an issue that was raised in the 1970s about putting wine on board Skylab. Some individuals in the Crew Systems Division were working on that. Were you involved in that discussion?

[User] Putting what on board Skylab?

[Assistant] Wine.

[User] Oh. No, I have no idea. The food, after the medical people left the Life Systems Division and moved over to the Science Directorate, they carried the food with them. I don’t really have any knowledge about the food at all. I do know that the Soviets have always had alcoholic beverages on their flights, and that was sort of a big deal back during the Apollo-Soyuz as to whether they would toast each other when they joined up. I guess the rumor was that it wasn’t on camera, but they did. I don’t know if that’s false or not. I have no knowledge, but that was the rumor, anyway.

[Assistant] Tell us about the SAFER and the MMU.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, sir, I am.

[Assistant] Great. Well, I'd like to start off and just say that because of the system here I might have to repeat myself, but it seems clear so far. Let's start off with a couple basic questions here. What were your duties as chief of Aircraft Operations Division?

[User] Well, I had, I guess, the technical responsibility for the scheduling, operations, and the maintenance contract, for at the time we only had about, under the Apollo Program, about thirty airplanes, and I was also the technical manager of the support contract that did all the maintenance and had a little staff of only about twenty pilots and about a like number of engineers and quality assurance personnel, and we just supported all the programs that were going on at the time at JSC [Johnson Space Center].

[Assistant] What were some of the problems that arose during your tenure as the director?

[User] Well, I wasn't a director. I was a division chief.

[Assistant] Pardon me, sir.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's very realistic. We mask out the windows. We have an orbiter crew station in the left side of the cockpit that flies the exact trajectory, and after several years' training, we see what the airplane does. We have a little software development capability. I'm not sure what contractor's doing it now. It was Ford, Philco, and Loral when I was there, and they keep matching the airplane. So it does exactly what the [orbiter] does, so the astronauts all consider it the best trainer for the Shuttle landing task. And we've got a crew station up [front]—that was another big mod. I didn't even mention that, but that was mostly mechanical. They had to put, you know, an orbiter crew station, all the controls and displays on the left side and then move the captain's station on the right side of the airplane. The normal captain sits on the left, so we had to move a lot of things to the right side of the—Grumman did a good job on that.\n\n Where are you located physically at JSC?

[Assistant] I'm in Building 12 right now, sir.

[User] Well, some time—probably thirty minutes, go up and see John Young. I think he's still working up there at the director's staff level. He can tell you all about the STA. He's very familiar with it.

[Assistant] Okay. Thank you for that reference.

[User] He spent a lot of time, and he helped us technically. As you know, he was involved in the Shuttle Program from start to finish, from start to now.

[Assistant] What was the exact purpose of the T-38 chase aircraft? What happened with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, some time—probably thirty minutes, go up and see John Young. I think he's still working up there at the director's staff level. He can tell you all about the STA. He's very familiar with it.

[Assistant] Okay. Thank you for that reference.

[User] He spent a lot of time, and he helped us technically. As you know, he was involved in the Shuttle Program from start to finish, from start to now.

[Assistant] What was the exact purpose of the T-38 chase aircraft? What happened with that?

[User] Initial flights, everybody was quite worried about how the astronauts could handle the [landing] task, you know, their height and stuff like that. So on the original ALT flights, we chased the orbiter with [Karol J.] Bobko, Gordon [Charles G.] Fullerton, and some of the other guys, and they'd call out the altitude, basically, at the very end and look over the vehicle. Then, when we actually started flying, we chased a few of the initial STS [Space Transportation System] flights because everybody was worried about the tiles falling off, structural problems. So we had chase. Actually, in the Edwards operation on the approach and landing test, the pilots are so busy with their tasks and instrument tasks, you really hate to say this because nobody's looking out the window. You really need somebody else to just be sure there's no other traffic in the area. And we had a big chase operation all during ALT.

[Assistant] Thank you. I'm interested, on the experiences with the shuttle carrier aircraft, if you could tell me—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were managing the operation and did the airplane mods, the P-3, the C-130. We started with a Convair-240 and a Bell-206 helicopter and two WB-57s. Again, we did the insulation of the equipment, which primarily came from people over in the Engineering Directorate, operated the airplanes, collected the data, and then delivered the data back to them. We didn't really get too involved in the science part of it. We just operated the airplanes.

[Assistant] I'm interested in your transition and your shift from your job that we've been talking about to the assistant director of flight crew operations. Can you tell me a little bit about that, please?

[User] You mean me personally?

[Assistant] Yes, sir.

[User] Well, I was just actively flying until about 1990. By that time I had reached an advanced age as far as the medical people, I guess, went to sixty-five, and they started, I guess, leaning on me to quit flying. So they made life difficult enough putting me on dual flying status and finally said, "You ought not to be flying. Why don't you get in management?" So I just phased out, and I retired in '92. Basically I quit flying in 1990.

[Assistant] What were your duties as assistant director for flight crew operations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I entered the Navy when I was seventeen years old, in the middle of World War II, went through the V-12 Program, then the V-5 Program. Those were the aviation cadet programs. I went through Navy flight training, and I really didn't finish the Navy flight training until the end of 1945, and by that time the war was over. So I was a reserve aviator had had a choice of getting out or signing up for a two-year tour, and after all the struggle of getting through the program, I signed up and went onto a torpedo attack squadron for two years, VT-20. So I did five years active duty with the Navy, two years on an aircraft carrier, the USS Philippine Sea.\n\n When I got…out, I went back to school and finished school at the University of North Carolina where I'd started in '42 and graduated in '49. I actually had applied for work at Langley, but at that time there weren't any openings. I was in graduate school, and there was kind of a big shuffle of NACA pilots. Joe Walker went out to Edwards to replace Scott [A.] Crossfield, who went to Rockwell and the X-15 Program. I went up to work at Lewis in 1951 early, and I worked there for nine years, and I worked at Langley Research Center for three years and then got recruited in spring of 1962 by Warren North and Walt [Walter C.] Williams, set up the JSC Aircraft Operations.

[Assistant] Thank you. Could you, for biographical purposes, I need to get your parents' full names.

[User] My dad's name was Samuel J. Algranti. He worked for the American Tobacco Company in Durham, North Carolina. My mother's name was Beatrice.

[Assistant] And her maiden name was?

[User] Carol.

[Assistant] Thank you. And I need to get your wife's name and the date you were married, please.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My dad's name was Samuel J. Algranti. He worked for the American Tobacco Company in Durham, North Carolina. My mother's name was Beatrice.

[Assistant] And her maiden name was?

[User] Carol.

[Assistant] Thank you. And I need to get your wife's name and the date you were married, please.

[User] Annabelle. We were married in November 1952. She was an employee of NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] at Lewis Lab, where I was working.

[Assistant] Thank you. And finally, your children's names, please.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Carol.

[Assistant] Thank you. And I need to get your wife's name and the date you were married, please.

[User] Annabelle. We were married in November 1952. She was an employee of NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] at Lewis Lab, where I was working.

[Assistant] Thank you. And finally, your children's names, please.

[User] I have a stepson named Donald Cope. My son is Samuel Algranti. He still lives in Houston. He works for a Norwegian oil company [Statoil], lives in Clear Lake City. My daughter is a physician. Her name is Deborah Simmons. She lives in LaGrange, Georgia.

[Assistant] Thank you very much. Mr. Algranti, I've really enjoyed this interview, and it's been a fascinating time, and I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We must have, but I don’t remember it now. It was really memorable talking to Dr. Kraft. I don’t know whether we would have told John first and then told Dr. Kraft. The right way chain of command-wise would be to have gone to John Young first and then George Abbey and then Dr. Kraft. I don’t remember if that’s what we did. If we didn’t, we should have.

[Assistant] Did you tell the whole Astronaut Office at the Monday morning meeting?

[User] Yes. She wanted me to announce it. We went to the Monday morning meeting when we were going to reveal it, and when John Young was asking, “Any comments from the floor?” or something like that, I raised my hand and I stood up. The way I announced it was I said, “I’m here to announce that our total number of astronauts has increased to 80 and a half because Rhea is pregnant,” was how we announced it to everybody. There was a big round of applause. That was the clever way that I told everybody. It was at one of our Monday morning meetings.

[Assistant] Were you surprised by the media interest that Rhea received? You didn’t seem to get much but she received quite a bit.

[User] Yes, she was the first American mom astronaut. I guess Shannon [W.] Lucid had kids, so she was already a mom before she became an astronaut. Then Rhea was the first American woman astronaut to become pregnant. Yes, that wouldn’t surprise me at all. I don’t remember that much about it. But just because she is who she is, yes, I’m not surprised that it generated a bunch of interest.

[Assistant] Was there any challenge that you saw from your perspective of her being pregnant and being an astronaut? You mentioned she couldn’t fly anymore. But are there other things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had about 30, somewhere around there, 31, 32, 30, something like that. I think they’re down to 20 now. They didn’t need quite as many of them.

[Assistant] There’s not as many people in the Office anymore.

[User] That’s true. When I was Chief Astronaut I remember my number was 113. There were 113 astronauts then.

[Assistant] Did you get your choice of flying time at least, being out there at Ellington?

[User] Not really, because everything went by a priority system. You had priority one through eight. Eight was everything else. Pri one was the next crew. Pri two was mission support for the next mission, so the chase pilots if there were chase pilots. I guess all the guys working down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] on the vehicle processing would be priority two. When I was a chase plane pilot, we were priority two. Everything in support of the next mission would be pri two.\n\n If I just wanted to do a cross-country I was in the same boat. Although I bet they took care of me a little bit, because I was the Deputy Chief out there. They probably had a tendency to try to slip you an airplane when they could.

[Assistant] I’m curious if you were at this meeting or not. Were you in attendance when George Abbey announced he was going to be flying STS-7, 8, and 9? If so, what do you remember about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really, because everything went by a priority system. You had priority one through eight. Eight was everything else. Pri one was the next crew. Pri two was mission support for the next mission, so the chase pilots if there were chase pilots. I guess all the guys working down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] on the vehicle processing would be priority two. When I was a chase plane pilot, we were priority two. Everything in support of the next mission would be pri two.\n\n If I just wanted to do a cross-country I was in the same boat. Although I bet they took care of me a little bit, because I was the Deputy Chief out there. They probably had a tendency to try to slip you an airplane when they could.

[Assistant] I’m curious if you were at this meeting or not. Were you in attendance when George Abbey announced he was going to be flying STS-7, 8, and 9? If so, what do you remember about that?

[User] Oh golly, yes. I remember that vividly. We knew that it was coming because it was about time for those crews to be named. Yes, I remember George started off. I remember what he said. He said, “Well, we hoped when we first picked you guys that by three years into it,” or however it was he said it, “we’d be about ready to start assigning some of you guys to the first missions.” I had predicted Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck.

[Assistant] You did?

[User] I had predicted. I said, “Rick Hauck is going to be the PLT [Pilot] on the very first flight. He’s going to be the first one out of our class to fly.”

[Assistant] Why’d you think that? I’m just curious.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s a funny story there too. That was when I got told. I don’t remember if I was over there anyway. This was while I was out at AOD. Either that or George said, “Hey, why don’t you come over and talk to me?” It was one of the farthest things away from my mind, because I didn’t even realize it was time to be assigning another crew. We had assigned 7, 8, and 9. Then at some point after that we assigned 10, which was a DoD [Department of Defense] mission. TK [Thomas K.] Mattingly with Loren [J.] Shriver as pilot, Ellison [S.] Onizuka, I think.

[Assistant] Yes, I think Ellison flew with Loren.

[User] Was it Jim [James F.] Buchli? Shouldn’t have been Jim Buchli. STS-10 got assigned. I showed up over at George’s and came in and sat down at his little conference table. It was George, and Vance Brand was sitting in there. Didn’t even occur to me. Nothing even occurred to me at all.\n\n George said, “Well, okay.” I think at that point I’d been out at AOD for a year and a half. George said, “Okay, you’ve been out at AOD for a year and a half now. Have you given any thought to what you might like to do next?” I said, “Oh gee, well, no, sir. No, I hadn’t really thought about it. I think everybody would like to be a CapCom, because that’s just really a neat job and really a good job. So I’d like to be a CapCom.”\n\n Then he said, “Well, have you got any interest in any of the upcoming missions?” Can you imagine what I said next?

[Assistant] What’d you say?

[User] “Huh?”

[Assistant] I thought you were going to say, “No.”