[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Had you had any parachute training?

[User] No, we had not, but one of the gentlemen in the squadron, one of my classmates, actually, was assigned a collateral duty of being the equipment and escape officer, so he went over to parachute school, as I remember, in El Centro, California, and came back and told us how to do it, if the need ever arose.

[Assistant] Did you get rescued quickly once you landed, with no problem?

[User] Yes. A jeep drove up just as I was landing, from K-3. The driver was a roommate of mine in flight school.

[Assistant] A roommate from where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we had not, but one of the gentlemen in the squadron, one of my classmates, actually, was assigned a collateral duty of being the equipment and escape officer, so he went over to parachute school, as I remember, in El Centro, California, and came back and told us how to do it, if the need ever arose.

[Assistant] Did you get rescued quickly once you landed, with no problem?

[User] Yes. A jeep drove up just as I was landing, from K-3. The driver was a roommate of mine in flight school.

[Assistant] A roommate from where?

[User] In flight school. He was now a marine lieutenant operating out of that field.

[Assistant] What was his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. A jeep drove up just as I was landing, from K-3. The driver was a roommate of mine in flight school.

[Assistant] A roommate from where?

[User] In flight school. He was now a marine lieutenant operating out of that field.

[Assistant] What was his name?

[User] His name was Goodell Warren.

[Assistant] Did you ever during the war receive other heavy damage flying, from ground fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In flight school. He was now a marine lieutenant operating out of that field.

[Assistant] What was his name?

[User] His name was Goodell Warren.

[Assistant] Did you ever during the war receive other heavy damage flying, from ground fire?

[User] Yes, we had a lot of bullet holes in our airplanes when we brought them back. We'd patch them up.

[Assistant] Put a little duct tape over that hole.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His name was Goodell Warren.

[Assistant] Did you ever during the war receive other heavy damage flying, from ground fire?

[User] Yes, we had a lot of bullet holes in our airplanes when we brought them back. We'd patch them up.

[Assistant] Put a little duct tape over that hole.

[User] Yes. Made them look pretty good, painted it over.

[Assistant] After your first month on the [USS] Essex [CV-9], then you had liberty in Japan when you'd get to spend time there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had a lot of bullet holes in our airplanes when we brought them back. We'd patch them up.

[Assistant] Put a little duct tape over that hole.

[User] Yes. Made them look pretty good, painted it over.

[Assistant] After your first month on the [USS] Essex [CV-9], then you had liberty in Japan when you'd get to spend time there?

[User] Usually we'd spend four or five weeks at sea and then they would take the entire ship back to Yokosuka for a week of refurbishing and reprovisioning and things like that. About one day a week we did some reprovisioning at sea (fuel) …, but on a monthly basis, five weeks or something like that, we'd go back in for five days or six days, something like that.

[Assistant] You could get aviation gasoline [av gas] while you were at sea? Or when you say fuel, you mean fuel for the carrier?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Made them look pretty good, painted it over.

[Assistant] After your first month on the [USS] Essex [CV-9], then you had liberty in Japan when you'd get to spend time there?

[User] Usually we'd spend four or five weeks at sea and then they would take the entire ship back to Yokosuka for a week of refurbishing and reprovisioning and things like that. About one day a week we did some reprovisioning at sea (fuel) …, but on a monthly basis, five weeks or something like that, we'd go back in for five days or six days, something like that.

[Assistant] You could get aviation gasoline [av gas] while you were at sea? Or when you say fuel, you mean fuel for the carrier?

[User] You know, I don't really know what all kinds of fuel, but they had a pipe, a hose that they could put over from the provisioning ship to the carrier. I assume they had both diesel and jet fuel, and maybe av gas, too.

[Assistant] Tell me about weather. North Korea, the whole of Korea is notorious for bad weather, and you're doing interdiction runs, so the weather is critical. Did you ever go off on a mission and you just couldn't find the target? Could you land carrying bombs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually we'd spend four or five weeks at sea and then they would take the entire ship back to Yokosuka for a week of refurbishing and reprovisioning and things like that. About one day a week we did some reprovisioning at sea (fuel) …, but on a monthly basis, five weeks or something like that, we'd go back in for five days or six days, something like that.

[Assistant] You could get aviation gasoline [av gas] while you were at sea? Or when you say fuel, you mean fuel for the carrier?

[User] You know, I don't really know what all kinds of fuel, but they had a pipe, a hose that they could put over from the provisioning ship to the carrier. I assume they had both diesel and jet fuel, and maybe av gas, too.

[Assistant] Tell me about weather. North Korea, the whole of Korea is notorious for bad weather, and you're doing interdiction runs, so the weather is critical. Did you ever go off on a mission and you just couldn't find the target? Could you land carrying bombs?

[User] No, we'd—

[Assistant] Or you'd jettison them in the sea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I don't really know what all kinds of fuel, but they had a pipe, a hose that they could put over from the provisioning ship to the carrier. I assume they had both diesel and jet fuel, and maybe av gas, too.

[Assistant] Tell me about weather. North Korea, the whole of Korea is notorious for bad weather, and you're doing interdiction runs, so the weather is critical. Did you ever go off on a mission and you just couldn't find the target? Could you land carrying bombs?

[User] No, we'd—

[Assistant] Or you'd jettison them in the sea?

[User] We would usually jettison armaments prior to returning, and we tried to jettison on targets of opportunity at the end of the flight when we had either found or not found our primary target, due to, in some cases, weather. Normally we'd have alternates, so if there was weather, we would divert to another target. We had some weather information, because we had Allied forces in the south of Korea and we had other sources of information, so they were able to give us not a bad weather briefing of what we could expect in the target area. It wasn't always right, just like it isn't always right here.

[Assistant] The teamwork and camaraderie experience on the Essex, is there any way to compare that at all to being in the astronaut corps or with engineers and contractors in the space program? The concept of teamwork now, this something that became a big part of your life from this point on. What was the teamwork aboard the Essex?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we'd—

[Assistant] Or you'd jettison them in the sea?

[User] We would usually jettison armaments prior to returning, and we tried to jettison on targets of opportunity at the end of the flight when we had either found or not found our primary target, due to, in some cases, weather. Normally we'd have alternates, so if there was weather, we would divert to another target. We had some weather information, because we had Allied forces in the south of Korea and we had other sources of information, so they were able to give us not a bad weather briefing of what we could expect in the target area. It wasn't always right, just like it isn't always right here.

[Assistant] The teamwork and camaraderie experience on the Essex, is there any way to compare that at all to being in the astronaut corps or with engineers and contractors in the space program? The concept of teamwork now, this something that became a big part of your life from this point on. What was the teamwork aboard the Essex?

[User] Yes, it was [a] teamwork operation, certainly. We had very few occasions when we would do anything on a solo basis. Almost everything we did as teams, and in our case we usually liked flights of four at least, to help each other out. Eight eyes are better than two in looking for trouble and looking for targets.

[Assistant] A diamond formation with the four?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We would usually jettison armaments prior to returning, and we tried to jettison on targets of opportunity at the end of the flight when we had either found or not found our primary target, due to, in some cases, weather. Normally we'd have alternates, so if there was weather, we would divert to another target. We had some weather information, because we had Allied forces in the south of Korea and we had other sources of information, so they were able to give us not a bad weather briefing of what we could expect in the target area. It wasn't always right, just like it isn't always right here.

[Assistant] The teamwork and camaraderie experience on the Essex, is there any way to compare that at all to being in the astronaut corps or with engineers and contractors in the space program? The concept of teamwork now, this something that became a big part of your life from this point on. What was the teamwork aboard the Essex?

[User] Yes, it was [a] teamwork operation, certainly. We had very few occasions when we would do anything on a solo basis. Almost everything we did as teams, and in our case we usually liked flights of four at least, to help each other out. Eight eyes are better than two in looking for trouble and looking for targets.

[Assistant] A diamond formation with the four?

[User] We used a formation, usually an echelon two airplanes each, separated by probably a quarter to a half mile. That would allow us to see a broad panorama both to the rear of the other—we would be looking after their tail and they would be looking after ours. That was a different approach than had been earlier introduced, or at least attributed to [Commander] Jimmy Thatch, the so-called Thatch Weave…. We did not use that technique.

[Assistant] Can you characterize your air group commander, Marsh Beebe and your squadron leader, E. M. Beauchamp? Did they have a big impact on you, teaching you, or did you get to learn from them new ways of flight that you hadn't previously on your on-the-job training on the Essex?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was [a] teamwork operation, certainly. We had very few occasions when we would do anything on a solo basis. Almost everything we did as teams, and in our case we usually liked flights of four at least, to help each other out. Eight eyes are better than two in looking for trouble and looking for targets.

[Assistant] A diamond formation with the four?

[User] We used a formation, usually an echelon two airplanes each, separated by probably a quarter to a half mile. That would allow us to see a broad panorama both to the rear of the other—we would be looking after their tail and they would be looking after ours. That was a different approach than had been earlier introduced, or at least attributed to [Commander] Jimmy Thatch, the so-called Thatch Weave…. We did not use that technique.

[Assistant] Can you characterize your air group commander, Marsh Beebe and your squadron leader, E. M. Beauchamp? Did they have a big impact on you, teaching you, or did you get to learn from them new ways of flight that you hadn't previously on your on-the-job training on the Essex?

[User] I flew with Commander Beebe some, and thought he was quite a good air group commander, the first I'd known and certainly the first in any operational circumstances or any combat circumstances. So I wasn't in a position to be critical anyway. I was, one, inexperienced; two, a junior officer. I was delighted when I had the chance to fly with him.\n\n Ernie Beauchamp, a wonderful skipper, [I] had enormous respect for him. I thought he was—and is; he is alive today—a superior leader. I think if there was anything I learned from our skipper was that it's not how you look; it's how you perform.

[Assistant] Do you stay in touch with any of the men from your unit, or do they stay in touch with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used a formation, usually an echelon two airplanes each, separated by probably a quarter to a half mile. That would allow us to see a broad panorama both to the rear of the other—we would be looking after their tail and they would be looking after ours. That was a different approach than had been earlier introduced, or at least attributed to [Commander] Jimmy Thatch, the so-called Thatch Weave…. We did not use that technique.

[Assistant] Can you characterize your air group commander, Marsh Beebe and your squadron leader, E. M. Beauchamp? Did they have a big impact on you, teaching you, or did you get to learn from them new ways of flight that you hadn't previously on your on-the-job training on the Essex?

[User] I flew with Commander Beebe some, and thought he was quite a good air group commander, the first I'd known and certainly the first in any operational circumstances or any combat circumstances. So I wasn't in a position to be critical anyway. I was, one, inexperienced; two, a junior officer. I was delighted when I had the chance to fly with him.\n\n Ernie Beauchamp, a wonderful skipper, [I] had enormous respect for him. I thought he was—and is; he is alive today—a superior leader. I think if there was anything I learned from our skipper was that it's not how you look; it's how you perform.

[Assistant] Do you stay in touch with any of the men from your unit, or do they stay in touch with you?

[User] We have periodic reunions, yes.

[Assistant] Do you ever attend any of those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I flew with Commander Beebe some, and thought he was quite a good air group commander, the first I'd known and certainly the first in any operational circumstances or any combat circumstances. So I wasn't in a position to be critical anyway. I was, one, inexperienced; two, a junior officer. I was delighted when I had the chance to fly with him.\n\n Ernie Beauchamp, a wonderful skipper, [I] had enormous respect for him. I thought he was—and is; he is alive today—a superior leader. I think if there was anything I learned from our skipper was that it's not how you look; it's how you perform.

[Assistant] Do you stay in touch with any of the men from your unit, or do they stay in touch with you?

[User] We have periodic reunions, yes.

[Assistant] Do you ever attend any of those?

[User] I was at one two months ago.

[Assistant] Were you really. They must be very proud, following your work with Apollo. But I guess to them you're just another one of the group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have periodic reunions, yes.

[Assistant] Do you ever attend any of those?

[User] I was at one two months ago.

[Assistant] Were you really. They must be very proud, following your work with Apollo. But I guess to them you're just another one of the group.

[User] They've forgiven me for my errors. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So, you came home from Korea and you'd completed your obligatory time in the navy, and you went right back to Purdue to finish school. Is that right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at one two months ago.

[Assistant] Were you really. They must be very proud, following your work with Apollo. But I guess to them you're just another one of the group.

[User] They've forgiven me for my errors. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So, you came home from Korea and you'd completed your obligatory time in the navy, and you went right back to Purdue to finish school. Is that right?

[User] Actually, my time expired when I was flying off the Essex, and so my options were to either extend or swim home. [Laughter] So I extended.

[Assistant] This is a question that I sense you may not like, but the Air Group 5's operation became the basis for that [James S.] Michener's book, The Bridges at Toko-Ri. Have you read the book?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They've forgiven me for my errors. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So, you came home from Korea and you'd completed your obligatory time in the navy, and you went right back to Purdue to finish school. Is that right?

[User] Actually, my time expired when I was flying off the Essex, and so my options were to either extend or swim home. [Laughter] So I extended.

[Assistant] This is a question that I sense you may not like, but the Air Group 5's operation became the basis for that [James S.] Michener's book, The Bridges at Toko-Ri. Have you read the book?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you like it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, my time expired when I was flying off the Essex, and so my options were to either extend or swim home. [Laughter] So I extended.

[Assistant] This is a question that I sense you may not like, but the Air Group 5's operation became the basis for that [James S.] Michener's book, The Bridges at Toko-Ri. Have you read the book?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you like it?

[User] I thought it was an excellent representation of the kinds of flying that we were doing there. It was identical, same kind of aircraft and the same class carrier. They put girls in the movie, which I didn't remember from my experience. [Laughter] Actually, Michener was on our ship. I think he went on three tours, two or three tours, you know, at four or five weeks at a crack, and would just sit around the wardroom in the evening or in the ready room in the daytime and listen to guys tell the actual stories. He didn't ask questions much or anything; he just kind of absorbed it all. So most of the things that happened in the book, which was quite a different book from any other book he's written in many ways, were actual events. Maybe he strung them together with different characters so they didn't happen precisely the way it would have been described in his novel, but, nevertheless, they were basically all adaptations of true stories that he used.

[Assistant] Can you recognize yourself in any of those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Did you like it?

[User] I thought it was an excellent representation of the kinds of flying that we were doing there. It was identical, same kind of aircraft and the same class carrier. They put girls in the movie, which I didn't remember from my experience. [Laughter] Actually, Michener was on our ship. I think he went on three tours, two or three tours, you know, at four or five weeks at a crack, and would just sit around the wardroom in the evening or in the ready room in the daytime and listen to guys tell the actual stories. He didn't ask questions much or anything; he just kind of absorbed it all. So most of the things that happened in the book, which was quite a different book from any other book he's written in many ways, were actual events. Maybe he strung them together with different characters so they didn't happen precisely the way it would have been described in his novel, but, nevertheless, they were basically all adaptations of true stories that he used.

[Assistant] Can you recognize yourself in any of those?

[User] No, but one of my colleagues, named Leonard Cheshire, "Chet," we called him, he didn't return. But I believe there [were] a lot of Chet Cheshire's stories in Bridges at Toko-Ri.

[Assistant] In the time you did spend in Japan, do you have any memories of your time in Japan? Here's the boy from Ohio going to a foreign country and experiencing Japanese life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought it was an excellent representation of the kinds of flying that we were doing there. It was identical, same kind of aircraft and the same class carrier. They put girls in the movie, which I didn't remember from my experience. [Laughter] Actually, Michener was on our ship. I think he went on three tours, two or three tours, you know, at four or five weeks at a crack, and would just sit around the wardroom in the evening or in the ready room in the daytime and listen to guys tell the actual stories. He didn't ask questions much or anything; he just kind of absorbed it all. So most of the things that happened in the book, which was quite a different book from any other book he's written in many ways, were actual events. Maybe he strung them together with different characters so they didn't happen precisely the way it would have been described in his novel, but, nevertheless, they were basically all adaptations of true stories that he used.

[Assistant] Can you recognize yourself in any of those?

[User] No, but one of my colleagues, named Leonard Cheshire, "Chet," we called him, he didn't return. But I believe there [were] a lot of Chet Cheshire's stories in Bridges at Toko-Ri.

[Assistant] In the time you did spend in Japan, do you have any memories of your time in Japan? Here's the boy from Ohio going to a foreign country and experiencing Japanese life.

[User] We usually went to these R&R [rest and recreation] facilities that the navy had organized and set up for our use, going to the Fujiya Hotel a number of times in the shadow of Mount Fuji.

[Assistant] Did you feel your time in the Korean War, which it's talked about as the forgotten war? You weren't questioning the politics involved in any way, with the cold war on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but one of my colleagues, named Leonard Cheshire, "Chet," we called him, he didn't return. But I believe there [were] a lot of Chet Cheshire's stories in Bridges at Toko-Ri.

[Assistant] In the time you did spend in Japan, do you have any memories of your time in Japan? Here's the boy from Ohio going to a foreign country and experiencing Japanese life.

[User] We usually went to these R&R [rest and recreation] facilities that the navy had organized and set up for our use, going to the Fujiya Hotel a number of times in the shadow of Mount Fuji.

[Assistant] Did you feel your time in the Korean War, which it's talked about as the forgotten war? You weren't questioning the politics involved in any way, with the cold war on?

[User] The naval aviators that I knew, first: were determined to do a first-class job. Second, most of them really enjoyed the combat experience in many ways. They'd rather be flying than not be flying. Lastly, they questioned everything. They'd talk about the Korean action and the reason for things and why certain targets might be available and others not be available, the same things that I suppose military people, it's the kind of questions they've asked themselves and talked among themselves throughout history. You're very much involved in the experience and questioning it is part of the natural things to do.

[Assistant] Were you excited to return to civilian life after the war and get on with getting back to going to Purdue and back to finishing your college degree? You must have been older now, right, going back to college. You were one of the youngest pilots.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We usually went to these R&R [rest and recreation] facilities that the navy had organized and set up for our use, going to the Fujiya Hotel a number of times in the shadow of Mount Fuji.

[Assistant] Did you feel your time in the Korean War, which it's talked about as the forgotten war? You weren't questioning the politics involved in any way, with the cold war on?

[User] The naval aviators that I knew, first: were determined to do a first-class job. Second, most of them really enjoyed the combat experience in many ways. They'd rather be flying than not be flying. Lastly, they questioned everything. They'd talk about the Korean action and the reason for things and why certain targets might be available and others not be available, the same things that I suppose military people, it's the kind of questions they've asked themselves and talked among themselves throughout history. You're very much involved in the experience and questioning it is part of the natural things to do.

[Assistant] Were you excited to return to civilian life after the war and get on with getting back to going to Purdue and back to finishing your college degree? You must have been older now, right, going back to college. You were one of the youngest pilots.

[User] I was twenty-two. I was really getting old. [Laughter] When I went back to university, kids looked so young. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you have a decision to make or did you always say, "I'm going back to Purdue and I'm going to finish this degree"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The naval aviators that I knew, first: were determined to do a first-class job. Second, most of them really enjoyed the combat experience in many ways. They'd rather be flying than not be flying. Lastly, they questioned everything. They'd talk about the Korean action and the reason for things and why certain targets might be available and others not be available, the same things that I suppose military people, it's the kind of questions they've asked themselves and talked among themselves throughout history. You're very much involved in the experience and questioning it is part of the natural things to do.

[Assistant] Were you excited to return to civilian life after the war and get on with getting back to going to Purdue and back to finishing your college degree? You must have been older now, right, going back to college. You were one of the youngest pilots.

[User] I was twenty-two. I was really getting old. [Laughter] When I went back to university, kids looked so young. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you have a decision to make or did you always say, "I'm going back to Purdue and I'm going to finish this degree"?

[User] Well, there were tempting options, but I decided—

[Assistant] To stay in the navy, for one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was twenty-two. I was really getting old. [Laughter] When I went back to university, kids looked so young. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you have a decision to make or did you always say, "I'm going back to Purdue and I'm going to finish this degree"?

[User] Well, there were tempting options, but I decided—

[Assistant] To stay in the navy, for one.

[User] To stay in the navy or otherwise use the skills that the navy had taught me. Those opportunities showed up periodically, but I thought it was important to go back and finish my education, so I put that in first position.

[Assistant] Then you joined the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics [NACA] at that point. Did you then move to Cleveland [Ohio]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were tempting options, but I decided—

[Assistant] To stay in the navy, for one.

[User] To stay in the navy or otherwise use the skills that the navy had taught me. Those opportunities showed up periodically, but I thought it was important to go back and finish my education, so I put that in first position.

[Assistant] Then you joined the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics [NACA] at that point. Did you then move to Cleveland [Ohio]?

[User] I did. That was my first job out of college.

[Assistant] And that was at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To stay in the navy or otherwise use the skills that the navy had taught me. Those opportunities showed up periodically, but I thought it was important to go back and finish my education, so I put that in first position.

[Assistant] Then you joined the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics [NACA] at that point. Did you then move to Cleveland [Ohio]?

[User] I did. That was my first job out of college.

[Assistant] And that was at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You just rented an apartment on your own or how did you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. That was my first job out of college.

[Assistant] And that was at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You just rented an apartment on your own or how did you—

[User] I rented a room at first, in a private home, and later met one of the other young bachelor engineers there, and then we rented a small place for the two of us.

[Assistant] Was this close to the laboratory or in downtown Cleveland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You just rented an apartment on your own or how did you—

[User] I rented a room at first, in a private home, and later met one of the other young bachelor engineers there, and then we rented a small place for the two of us.

[Assistant] Was this close to the laboratory or in downtown Cleveland?

[User] Well, it was not far from the—I don't think we were more than ten minutes from work.

[Assistant] Did you acquire an automobile?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I rented a room at first, in a private home, and later met one of the other young bachelor engineers there, and then we rented a small place for the two of us.

[Assistant] Was this close to the laboratory or in downtown Cleveland?

[User] Well, it was not far from the—I don't think we were more than ten minutes from work.

[Assistant] Did you acquire an automobile?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you could go back home, too, to Cleveland or to Wapakoneta, to visit family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was not far from the—I don't think we were more than ten minutes from work.

[Assistant] Did you acquire an automobile?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you could go back home, too, to Cleveland or to Wapakoneta, to visit family.

[User] I could, yes.

[Assistant] And return back. What were your general duties and responsibilities there at the laboratory in Cleveland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only product of the NACA was research reports and papers. So when you prepared something for publication, either as a principal or associate author of some sort, you had to face the "Inquisition," which was the review of said paper by experts who were predominantly lady English teachers or librarians who were absolutely unbearably critical of the tiniest punctuation or grammatical error, and that is what NASA needs today. [Laughter] Because it really made a good product. The rigor of the language, which I never mastered, but I appreciated after being exposed to those charming ladies who were so tough.

[Assistant]
I know exactly what you mean. That's my wife that you're talking about. [Armstrong laughs.] And I get asked, "What's the secret to being a successful writer?" I say, "Marry an English major."

When you left Cleveland, did you drive from Cleveland to California with your car?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] And you're married at this time, so you're driving together?

[User] I was not married, no.

[Assistant] Was this your first cross-country trek, seeing the Rockies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] And you're married at this time, so you're driving together?

[User] I was not married, no.

[Assistant] Was this your first cross-country trek, seeing the Rockies?

[User] No, no, because I'd driven—I first got my car when I was in the navy, so I had driven from the West Coast across the country before, to and from.

[Assistant] Where did you go immediately when you went to California? What was your destination city? You were going to Edwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not married, no.

[Assistant] Was this your first cross-country trek, seeing the Rockies?

[User] No, no, because I'd driven—I first got my car when I was in the navy, so I had driven from the West Coast across the country before, to and from.

[Assistant] Where did you go immediately when you went to California? What was your destination city? You were going to Edwards?

[User] Edwards, yes.

[Assistant] But you're also eventually going to the University of Southern California [Los Angeles, California]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, because I'd driven—I first got my car when I was in the navy, so I had driven from the West Coast across the country before, to and from.

[Assistant] Where did you go immediately when you went to California? What was your destination city? You were going to Edwards?

[User] Edwards, yes.

[Assistant] But you're also eventually going to the University of Southern California [Los Angeles, California]?

[User] That was later. That was later. I went directly to my job at Edwards.

[Assistant] So you started flying X-15s when you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Edwards, yes.

[Assistant] But you're also eventually going to the University of Southern California [Los Angeles, California]?

[User] That was later. That was later. I went directly to my job at Edwards.

[Assistant] So you started flying X-15s when you got there?

[User] Well, at the time, I went there in '55, summer of '55, and the X-15 was just put under contract in November of '55. It wouldn't be completed [till] four years later.

[Assistant] What were your first projects there when you got to Edwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was later. That was later. I went directly to my job at Edwards.

[Assistant] So you started flying X-15s when you got there?

[User] Well, at the time, I went there in '55, summer of '55, and the X-15 was just put under contract in November of '55. It wouldn't be completed [till] four years later.

[Assistant] What were your first projects there when you got to Edwards?

[User] I'd have to look in my log to be sure. First they wanted me to learn a little bit of the NACA techniques for data collection and so on, and they had a P-51 [Mustang] that they had very rudimentary instruments and data-collection techniques for. They made me go out there and do a lot of flights and practice a lot of maneuvers for test purposes, and turn in the results so they could see whether I was starting to get the hang of it. Took me a while, but it was a good experience—

[Assistant] Did I hear you say P-51?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at the time, I went there in '55, summer of '55, and the X-15 was just put under contract in November of '55. It wouldn't be completed [till] four years later.

[Assistant] What were your first projects there when you got to Edwards?

[User] I'd have to look in my log to be sure. First they wanted me to learn a little bit of the NACA techniques for data collection and so on, and they had a P-51 [Mustang] that they had very rudimentary instruments and data-collection techniques for. They made me go out there and do a lot of flights and practice a lot of maneuvers for test purposes, and turn in the results so they could see whether I was starting to get the hang of it. Took me a while, but it was a good experience—

[Assistant] Did I hear you say P-51?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Tell me about that plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd have to look in my log to be sure. First they wanted me to learn a little bit of the NACA techniques for data collection and so on, and they had a P-51 [Mustang] that they had very rudimentary instruments and data-collection techniques for. They made me go out there and do a lot of flights and practice a lot of maneuvers for test purposes, and turn in the results so they could see whether I was starting to get the hang of it. Took me a while, but it was a good experience—

[Assistant] Did I hear you say P-51?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Tell me about that plane.

[User] It's no F8F, but it's not a bad airplane.

[Assistant] I was interviewing one of the Tuskegee Airmen who flew P-51s in Italy, and he said, "That was such a honey of an airplane, if it had been a girl, I'd have married it."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Tell me about that plane.

[User] It's no F8F, but it's not a bad airplane.

[Assistant] I was interviewing one of the Tuskegee Airmen who flew P-51s in Italy, and he said, "That was such a honey of an airplane, if it had been a girl, I'd have married it."

[User] [Laughter] It is a nice airplane, and wonderful sound, particularly when you retarded the throttle and you got those stacks putt-putt-putting. It was quite elegant. I enjoyed flying the airplane. Just didn't have the performance of an F8F, but it was built [to fly at] high altitude. Well, it first was built to be an attack airplane, not a fighter, but a fighter version of it became predominantly a high-altitude escort long-range aircraft.

[Assistant] So, continue with—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughter] It is a nice airplane, and wonderful sound, particularly when you retarded the throttle and you got those stacks putt-putt-putting. It was quite elegant. I enjoyed flying the airplane. Just didn't have the performance of an F8F, but it was built [to fly at] high altitude. Well, it first was built to be an attack airplane, not a fighter, but a fighter version of it became predominantly a high-altitude escort long-range aircraft.

[Assistant] So, continue with—

[User] Other airplanes? They flew some other jets. They had a YRF-84F [Thunderflash]. When I got there, I was the fifth pilot. One was going to leave. [A.] Scott Crossfield had announced that he was going to go be the pilot on the X-15 program, whoever won it. He was going to go there and had agreements with all the different bidders, that if they won the contract, he would get the job. So told them he was going to leave, and that's what gave me the opportunity to transfer there.\n\n They had five pilots, and, if memory serves, seventeen aircraft, pretty much all different. A lot of X-airplanes [experimental] and fighters, the B-47 [Stratojet] and R4D and a couple of B-29s [Superfortress], all kinds of exotic aircraft. So they let me fly a few of these at first, and as they became more confident in my abilities and as I became more experienced, why, they gave me more and more jobs.\n\n I did a lot of different test programs in those days. That was the first time I ever flew supersonically, when I got an F-100 [Super Sabre], and I flew that aircraft a lot, a very nice early F-100.

[Assistant] And you flew a B-29?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's a big plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other airplanes? They flew some other jets. They had a YRF-84F [Thunderflash]. When I got there, I was the fifth pilot. One was going to leave. [A.] Scott Crossfield had announced that he was going to go be the pilot on the X-15 program, whoever won it. He was going to go there and had agreements with all the different bidders, that if they won the contract, he would get the job. So told them he was going to leave, and that's what gave me the opportunity to transfer there.\n\n They had five pilots, and, if memory serves, seventeen aircraft, pretty much all different. A lot of X-airplanes [experimental] and fighters, the B-47 [Stratojet] and R4D and a couple of B-29s [Superfortress], all kinds of exotic aircraft. So they let me fly a few of these at first, and as they became more confident in my abilities and as I became more experienced, why, they gave me more and more jobs.\n\n I did a lot of different test programs in those days. That was the first time I ever flew supersonically, when I got an F-100 [Super Sabre], and I flew that aircraft a lot, a very nice early F-100.

[Assistant] And you flew a B-29?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That's a big plane.

[User] We had two that we used for dropping rocket aircraft, the X-1s and the [Douglas D-558-2] Skyrockets. So I, either as the right-seat or the left-seat guy in the B-29, launched over 100 rocket airplanes in the fifties.

[Assistant] A couple of your X-15 flights became pretty well known, one in which you lost your stability and had to recover, and then there's also the mission which you ended with the longest X-15 flight on record, when you had to fly back to Edwards from the south. Do you mind just commenting on particularly those two flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You always do. There's no power on the aircraft, so you're always a glider after the rocket burns out. The rocket only [burned for] a minute and a half.

[Assistant] Did any of these difficulties you had at Edwards, later with Dave [David R.] Scott and Gemini [VIII], did any of these experiences teach you kind of grace under pressure? When you had later problems with Mr. Scott and Gemini, how did these things—

[User] Well, I always felt that the risks that we had in the space side of the program were probably less than we [had] back in flying at Edwards or the general flight-test community. The reason is that when we were out exploring the frontiers, we were out at the edges of the flight envelope all the time, testing limits. Our knowledge base was probably not as good as it was in the space program. We had less technical insurance, less minds looking, less backup programs, less other analysis going on. That isn't to say that we didn't expect risks in the space program; we certainly expected they would be there, were guaranteed that they would be there. But we felt pretty comfortable because we had so much technical backup and we didn't go nearly close to the limits as much as we did back in the old flight-test days.

[Assistant] Have you ever read, would you like commenting on Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff? Do you feel it captured the climate around Edwards in any way, shape, or form, or is it exaggerated?

[User] I haven't read the book critically. I'm not sure I've read it all. I've read a bit. I did see the movie. I thought it was very good filmmaking, but terrible history; the wrong people working on the wrong projects at the wrong times. It bears no resemblance whatever to what was actually going on.

[Assistant] And to live out around Edwards at that time, you were right near the base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I always felt that the risks that we had in the space side of the program were probably less than we [had] back in flying at Edwards or the general flight-test community. The reason is that when we were out exploring the frontiers, we were out at the edges of the flight envelope all the time, testing limits. Our knowledge base was probably not as good as it was in the space program. We had less technical insurance, less minds looking, less backup programs, less other analysis going on. That isn't to say that we didn't expect risks in the space program; we certainly expected they would be there, were guaranteed that they would be there. But we felt pretty comfortable because we had so much technical backup and we didn't go nearly close to the limits as much as we did back in the old flight-test days.

[Assistant] Have you ever read, would you like commenting on Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff? Do you feel it captured the climate around Edwards in any way, shape, or form, or is it exaggerated?

[User] I haven't read the book critically. I'm not sure I've read it all. I've read a bit. I did see the movie. I thought it was very good filmmaking, but terrible history; the wrong people working on the wrong projects at the wrong times. It bears no resemblance whatever to what was actually going on.

[Assistant] And to live out around Edwards at that time, you were right near the base?

[User] I lived about an hour drive away, south. Nobody lived close. A half hour is about as close as you could live. Big base.

[Assistant] At this point in your life when you're telling all these stories to us, do you miss the opportunity of flying in that kind of way, on a regular basis, like you were doing back then? Sometimes you almost get nostalgic for those days at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I haven't read the book critically. I'm not sure I've read it all. I've read a bit. I did see the movie. I thought it was very good filmmaking, but terrible history; the wrong people working on the wrong projects at the wrong times. It bears no resemblance whatever to what was actually going on.

[Assistant] And to live out around Edwards at that time, you were right near the base?

[User] I lived about an hour drive away, south. Nobody lived close. A half hour is about as close as you could live. Big base.

[Assistant] At this point in your life when you're telling all these stories to us, do you miss the opportunity of flying in that kind of way, on a regular basis, like you were doing back then? Sometimes you almost get nostalgic for those days at all?

[User] That was a very exciting job and very excellent flying, very challenging goals. I think it was certainly one of the memorable parts of my life.

[Assistant] When you flew in today, do you ever sit on the airplane and think, "God, I wish I could pilot this. I've got the itch. I wish I could just sit in the—"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived about an hour drive away, south. Nobody lived close. A half hour is about as close as you could live. Big base.

[Assistant] At this point in your life when you're telling all these stories to us, do you miss the opportunity of flying in that kind of way, on a regular basis, like you were doing back then? Sometimes you almost get nostalgic for those days at all?

[User] That was a very exciting job and very excellent flying, very challenging goals. I think it was certainly one of the memorable parts of my life.

[Assistant] When you flew in today, do you ever sit on the airplane and think, "God, I wish I could pilot this. I've got the itch. I wish I could just sit in the—"?

[User] I'm still a legal pilot and I still enjoy it as much as I always did…

[Assistant] We were out at Edwards. I was just wondering if you could comment on the air force's Dyna-Soar [Dynamic Soaring] program and how did you decide upon the Douglas F5D-1 Skylancer as the suitable demonstrator for parts of the Dyna-Soar flight profile. And did you develop any procedures based on flying this aircraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our principal responsibility was engineering work. We did not do a lot of flying. It was program development, devising simulations, looking at the problems of flight, and trying to figure out ways we could test those things and devise solutions to those problems. It was a wonderful time period and it was very satisfying work, particularly when you found a solution that would work.

[Assistant] Did you know about the first call for astronauts that went out to military test pilots? I was wondering what your thoughts may have been when you learned about the astronaut program, when you first started realizing it.

[User] We were certainly aware of it, both through NASA, because NACA had become NASA by this time, and also from our colleagues in the military, good friends and people we flew with daily, some of whom had been invited to consider applying for that.

[Assistant] When you were at Edwards, did you develop a close friendship with other astronauts with people that later, or did you stay more to yourself and your own life, or do you guys all socialize?

[User] I knew a number of the air force people at Edwards who later transferred to Houston like I did. But I wouldn't say that I knew them very well, not nearly as well as I knew the other NASA pilots and NASA engineers, for that matter. They were on a different part of the base. We occasionally had meetings where we would be discussing the same subjects and we would see them probably more frequently in the air when they were out on our wing tip with an F-104 [Starfighter] or something.

[Assistant] In this period, the notion of space in the ‘50s is starting to be talked about. NASA is officially now NASA. [President Dwight D.] Eisenhower administration. Do you have any thoughts on some of the early events of the space race, such as the launch of Sputnik? Do you remember your feeling, on hearing about Sputnik and Explorer 1? Were you conscious of the politics of the cold war going on with the race into space at that time when you were at Edwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Monkeys.

[Assistant] Is that kind of an attitude that prevailed?

[User] On the part of some, yes. At the time the Mercury program was started, it might well have gone that way. In a sense it did, in that they had a lot of monkey flights and so on, chimp flights. But I believe that the reason it did not keep that characterization was that the Mercury crewmen insisted on making it an airplane-like device, have the same conventions as normal airplanes, so that your natural instincts were proper, and insist that the crewmen be able to perceive enough and see enough and have sufficient information available, … that he could make reasonable choices about proper alternatives in how to control the craft in a manner that would maximize the ability to get toward the objective.\n\n So I think that was a great contribution on the part of the Mercury guys, who were probably abrasive to some of the engineering managers in that time in their demands that the craft be built in this way. So that certainly was important.

[Assistant] Did you have any encounters with Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager during this period at all?

[User] Oh, I've known Chuck for, you know, forty-something years.

[Assistant] I'm just curious, is he somebody that other pilots look up to as this extraordinary pilot, or is he just another one of the guys?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the part of some, yes. At the time the Mercury program was started, it might well have gone that way. In a sense it did, in that they had a lot of monkey flights and so on, chimp flights. But I believe that the reason it did not keep that characterization was that the Mercury crewmen insisted on making it an airplane-like device, have the same conventions as normal airplanes, so that your natural instincts were proper, and insist that the crewmen be able to perceive enough and see enough and have sufficient information available, … that he could make reasonable choices about proper alternatives in how to control the craft in a manner that would maximize the ability to get toward the objective.\n\n So I think that was a great contribution on the part of the Mercury guys, who were probably abrasive to some of the engineering managers in that time in their demands that the craft be built in this way. So that certainly was important.

[Assistant] Did you have any encounters with Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager during this period at all?

[User] Oh, I've known Chuck for, you know, forty-something years.

[Assistant] I'm just curious, is he somebody that other pilots look up to as this extraordinary pilot, or is he just another one of the guys?

[User] I think people recognize that he was a good pilot, a stick and rudder man.

[Assistant] He's become almost a mythological pilot. The legend of Chuck Yeager has become—do you think that's just through books and media, things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I've known Chuck for, you know, forty-something years.

[Assistant] I'm just curious, is he somebody that other pilots look up to as this extraordinary pilot, or is he just another one of the guys?

[User] I think people recognize that he was a good pilot, a stick and rudder man.

[Assistant] He's become almost a mythological pilot. The legend of Chuck Yeager has become—do you think that's just through books and media, things like that?

[User] I'll pass.

[Assistant] What was the astronaut selection progress like, and what kinds of physical and psychological tests were you subjected to once you made that decision on your part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think people recognize that he was a good pilot, a stick and rudder man.

[Assistant] He's become almost a mythological pilot. The legend of Chuck Yeager has become—do you think that's just through books and media, things like that?

[User] I'll pass.

[Assistant] What was the astronaut selection progress like, and what kinds of physical and psychological tests were you subjected to once you made that decision on your part?

[User] Well, I don't think the community of flight medicine and flight physiology knew very much what they needed to do at that point. There were widespread predictions that humans could not survive in space, for a variety of reasons, both physical, physiological and mental and psychological, all kinds of reasons. So they didn't really know exactly what to test for, I think, so they did everything. They didn't miss anything, as far as I know. They did every test known to man. [Laughter] Not necessarily fun. Survivable.

[Assistant] You obviously passed all those with flying colors.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll pass.

[Assistant] What was the astronaut selection progress like, and what kinds of physical and psychological tests were you subjected to once you made that decision on your part?

[User] Well, I don't think the community of flight medicine and flight physiology knew very much what they needed to do at that point. There were widespread predictions that humans could not survive in space, for a variety of reasons, both physical, physiological and mental and psychological, all kinds of reasons. So they didn't really know exactly what to test for, I think, so they did everything. They didn't miss anything, as far as I know. They did every test known to man. [Laughter] Not necessarily fun. Survivable.

[Assistant] You obviously passed all those with flying colors.

[User] I don't know what the results were.

[Assistant] What was your first experience? Suddenly you're now in the astronaut ranks. What became your impressions of the Space Task Group, and how did that differ from being out in California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't think the community of flight medicine and flight physiology knew very much what they needed to do at that point. There were widespread predictions that humans could not survive in space, for a variety of reasons, both physical, physiological and mental and psychological, all kinds of reasons. So they didn't really know exactly what to test for, I think, so they did everything. They didn't miss anything, as far as I know. They did every test known to man. [Laughter] Not necessarily fun. Survivable.

[Assistant] You obviously passed all those with flying colors.

[User] I don't know what the results were.

[Assistant] What was your first experience? Suddenly you're now in the astronaut ranks. What became your impressions of the Space Task Group, and how did that differ from being out in California?

[User] Well, a lot of the people in Space Task Group I'd known for some years. They mostly came from Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia], although some actually came from Edwards. Some came from Ames [Research Center, Mountain View, California], but predominantly Langley. I had known them in my work at Edwards, because they were very much involved in the analytical and the wind tunnel work that supported the kind of work that we were doing.\n\n Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth was a wonderful man, who was a superb handling-qualities expert, [among] the best in the world. I knew Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] and Max [Maxime A.] Faget. I remember the discussions earlier that we'd had at conferences on these subjects of blunt shapes and flying bodies and winged vehicles and so on, which were the best configurations and what were the pluses and minuses of different routes to go into space. So I came in with a high confidence level that these were people who I could respect, and knew had the background and the inclination and the determination to do what would lie ahead.

[Assistant] How did your job now as an astronaut differ from being a test pilot what were the first things that you realized were going to be different for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To a lesser extent, because once you get on a flight crew, a very large percentage of your time is committed. So at that point in time, and before we had many new guys come in, we had a bit of a gap, in my perspective. Too many people were—they were gladly assigned to flight crews, but it left some openings behind us and some things weren't covered to the degree we would have liked them to have been.

[Assistant] How did you feel when President [John F.] Kennedy made his great challenge to put a man on the Moon in that speech, not just yourself, but the whole team you were with? Was that a moment where you really—can you recall Kennedy's speech and can you recall that kind of commitment that came out of President Kennedy?

[User] Well, yes, I certainly remember it, but it's a big hazy because I've heard recordings of it so many times since, that you're not certain whether you're remembering or you're remembering what you're remembering. So I'm not certain what it was. And, of course, it's been colored by the fact that I read so many stories of how that process actually occurred and what led to his conclusion to do that. I guess I've been persuaded by historians that it wouldn't have been his first choice, but he didn't find any other good options to go against the Soviets with. The world was caught up in what the Soviets were doing. And he'd campaigned against Lyndon [Baines Johnson] on the basis that we were behind in rocketry. And [Richard M.] Nixon.

[Assistant] Against Nixon, too, of course. Against Eisenhower, really.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess I'm thinking of the youngness of all of you, and here's this young president saying that. Did you feel like he was part of the team, like he was a leader now? With President Kennedy we really had a leader that wanted to put the space program on the forefront of the American agenda?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, I certainly remember it, but it's a big hazy because I've heard recordings of it so many times since, that you're not certain whether you're remembering or you're remembering what you're remembering. So I'm not certain what it was. And, of course, it's been colored by the fact that I read so many stories of how that process actually occurred and what led to his conclusion to do that. I guess I've been persuaded by historians that it wouldn't have been his first choice, but he didn't find any other good options to go against the Soviets with. The world was caught up in what the Soviets were doing. And he'd campaigned against Lyndon [Baines Johnson] on the basis that we were behind in rocketry. And [Richard M.] Nixon.

[Assistant] Against Nixon, too, of course. Against Eisenhower, really.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess I'm thinking of the youngness of all of you, and here's this young president saying that. Did you feel like he was part of the team, like he was a leader now? With President Kennedy we really had a leader that wanted to put the space program on the forefront of the American agenda?

[User] Our concern always was, "What will the Congress do?" Because the president can proclaim, but it's the Congress that makes things happen. So that's really where the question was. As it turned out, they were motivated to support the president in this area, which I'm not sure I necessarily would have guessed at that point, based on my recollection of priorities—

[Assistant] Let me go back for a second to the event that got the president to say, "We're going to get to the Moon." You were a combat pilot in the Korean War. That was only a decade earlier. You were at the very cutting edge of test pilot and working on all the things that you were working on at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Did you guys pay much attention to that? Was there a feeling of, "God almighty! We want to be in on this!"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess I'm thinking of the youngness of all of you, and here's this young president saying that. Did you feel like he was part of the team, like he was a leader now? With President Kennedy we really had a leader that wanted to put the space program on the forefront of the American agenda?

[User] Our concern always was, "What will the Congress do?" Because the president can proclaim, but it's the Congress that makes things happen. So that's really where the question was. As it turned out, they were motivated to support the president in this area, which I'm not sure I necessarily would have guessed at that point, based on my recollection of priorities—

[Assistant] Let me go back for a second to the event that got the president to say, "We're going to get to the Moon." You were a combat pilot in the Korean War. That was only a decade earlier. You were at the very cutting edge of test pilot and working on all the things that you were working on at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Did you guys pay much attention to that? Was there a feeling of, "God almighty! We want to be in on this!"?

[User] Yes, there was, because (you remember at the time) it was a time of such incredibly high tension nationally and internationally, and I think everyone felt we were right on the brink of potential World War III. I don't think anybody, even the people in the back woods of Montana, were unaware of this tension, this heightened sense of tension. I was very aware of it. I thought that we could shove aside all the work we're doing in favor of other things that the country decided were more important from a strategic point of view.

[Assistant] What about you and the people you were working with? Did you feel like, "What are we doing this for? Because we need to be a part—if there's going to be World War III, we want to be a part of it, and what we're aiming at right now, what we're trying to do is like yesterday's newspaper."?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our concern always was, "What will the Congress do?" Because the president can proclaim, but it's the Congress that makes things happen. So that's really where the question was. As it turned out, they were motivated to support the president in this area, which I'm not sure I necessarily would have guessed at that point, based on my recollection of priorities—

[Assistant] Let me go back for a second to the event that got the president to say, "We're going to get to the Moon." You were a combat pilot in the Korean War. That was only a decade earlier. You were at the very cutting edge of test pilot and working on all the things that you were working on at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Did you guys pay much attention to that? Was there a feeling of, "God almighty! We want to be in on this!"?

[User] Yes, there was, because (you remember at the time) it was a time of such incredibly high tension nationally and internationally, and I think everyone felt we were right on the brink of potential World War III. I don't think anybody, even the people in the back woods of Montana, were unaware of this tension, this heightened sense of tension. I was very aware of it. I thought that we could shove aside all the work we're doing in favor of other things that the country decided were more important from a strategic point of view.

[Assistant] What about you and the people you were working with? Did you feel like, "What are we doing this for? Because we need to be a part—if there's going to be World War III, we want to be a part of it, and what we're aiming at right now, what we're trying to do is like yesterday's newspaper."?

[User] Exactly. That was a concern, but at the time I think the reality was, you've got your job to do and you just go ahead and do it, and keep doing it and hope for the best.

[Assistant] As in the events of last Tuesday [September 11, 2001].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was, because (you remember at the time) it was a time of such incredibly high tension nationally and internationally, and I think everyone felt we were right on the brink of potential World War III. I don't think anybody, even the people in the back woods of Montana, were unaware of this tension, this heightened sense of tension. I was very aware of it. I thought that we could shove aside all the work we're doing in favor of other things that the country decided were more important from a strategic point of view.

[Assistant] What about you and the people you were working with? Did you feel like, "What are we doing this for? Because we need to be a part—if there's going to be World War III, we want to be a part of it, and what we're aiming at right now, what we're trying to do is like yesterday's newspaper."?

[User] Exactly. That was a concern, but at the time I think the reality was, you've got your job to do and you just go ahead and do it, and keep doing it and hope for the best.

[Assistant] As in the events of last Tuesday [September 11, 2001].

[User] Yes. Just carry on.

[Assistant] Where were you when Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] made his famous flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. That was a concern, but at the time I think the reality was, you've got your job to do and you just go ahead and do it, and keep doing it and hope for the best.

[Assistant] As in the events of last Tuesday [September 11, 2001].

[User] Yes. Just carry on.

[Assistant] Where were you when Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] made his famous flight?

[User] I was at Edwards at the time, but I can't remember where specifically I was.

[Assistant] The same question with John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Just carry on.

[Assistant] Where were you when Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] made his famous flight?

[User] I was at Edwards at the time, but I can't remember where specifically I was.

[Assistant] The same question with John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. Do you remember?

[User] Yes, I was at home at the time, I remember.

[Assistant] Watching it on the television news, reading about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at Edwards at the time, but I can't remember where specifically I was.

[Assistant] The same question with John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. Do you remember?

[User] Yes, I was at home at the time, I remember.

[Assistant] Watching it on the television news, reading about it?

[User] Right. It was very early in the morning. I was in California, as I remember. I think it was dark.

[Assistant] Do you recall when it was you were assigned to the Gemini V mission? And what were your thoughts at that time? How was training for that mission different than your general training? How did your life change when you suddenly were assigned to the mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was at home at the time, I remember.

[Assistant] Watching it on the television news, reading about it?

[User] Right. It was very early in the morning. I was in California, as I remember. I think it was dark.

[Assistant] Do you recall when it was you were assigned to the Gemini V mission? And what were your thoughts at that time? How was training for that mission different than your general training? How did your life change when you suddenly were assigned to the mission?

[User] Well, I was really pleased to be assigned to a flight, and quite satisfied to be in that position of backing up [L.] Gordon Cooper. It was quite a change from the time before, when we were working lots of general projects and trying to build pieces here and there, to all of a sudden having a pretty much complete focus on achieving the objectives of that flight, which was originally intended to be a one-week-long flight, [the first] long-duration flight. There were a lot of other [parts] besides just long-duration, but that was the principal objective.\n\n Elliot [M.] See was my associate on the backup crew. [Charles] Pete Conrad [Jr.] was flying the right seat in that flight. We were a very close team. We spent almost all our time together for months on end, getting ready for that flight, both going back and forth between Houston—spent a lot of time at the [McDonnell] plant in St. Louis [Missouri], working with the spacecraft as it was nearing completion, and participating in the testing of that spacecraft. So we all knew it very well by the time it was shipped to the Cape.

[Assistant] When you say "spent almost all our time," your meals, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. It was very early in the morning. I was in California, as I remember. I think it was dark.

[Assistant] Do you recall when it was you were assigned to the Gemini V mission? And what were your thoughts at that time? How was training for that mission different than your general training? How did your life change when you suddenly were assigned to the mission?

[User] Well, I was really pleased to be assigned to a flight, and quite satisfied to be in that position of backing up [L.] Gordon Cooper. It was quite a change from the time before, when we were working lots of general projects and trying to build pieces here and there, to all of a sudden having a pretty much complete focus on achieving the objectives of that flight, which was originally intended to be a one-week-long flight, [the first] long-duration flight. There were a lot of other [parts] besides just long-duration, but that was the principal objective.\n\n Elliot [M.] See was my associate on the backup crew. [Charles] Pete Conrad [Jr.] was flying the right seat in that flight. We were a very close team. We spent almost all our time together for months on end, getting ready for that flight, both going back and forth between Houston—spent a lot of time at the [McDonnell] plant in St. Louis [Missouri], working with the spacecraft as it was nearing completion, and participating in the testing of that spacecraft. So we all knew it very well by the time it was shipped to the Cape.

[Assistant] When you say "spent almost all our time," your meals, too?

[User] Yes. We ate together. Not when we were in St. Louis. We certainly were at home. We'd get home sometimes. But the reality of the world in those days is that a lot of the testing took place at two o'clock in the morning or four-thirty in the morning, and we were spelling each other off. We would spend enormous amounts of time together, working out the details.

[Assistant] And this was single-minded. You weren't bullshitting about the latest play that you saw or the latest novel you'd read.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We ate together. Not when we were in St. Louis. We certainly were at home. We'd get home sometimes. But the reality of the world in those days is that a lot of the testing took place at two o'clock in the morning or four-thirty in the morning, and we were spelling each other off. We would spend enormous amounts of time together, working out the details.

[Assistant] And this was single-minded. You weren't bullshitting about the latest play that you saw or the latest novel you'd read.

[User] No, no. I would not say that we never cracked a joke or talked about something off the project, but we were 98 percent focused on the job we had to do. I was and my perception of my colleagues was the same.

[Assistant] It is part of the popular perception, I guess, and it appears in some of the literature that the other astronauts have put out, that there was a lot of jockeying for position.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And a lot of tension about who's going to get on this mission or that mission, who's going to be backup, etc. Your reputation is the exact opposite of that. I would like to hear you speak about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I would not say that we never cracked a joke or talked about something off the project, but we were 98 percent focused on the job we had to do. I was and my perception of my colleagues was the same.

[Assistant] It is part of the popular perception, I guess, and it appears in some of the literature that the other astronauts have put out, that there was a lot of jockeying for position.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And a lot of tension about who's going to get on this mission or that mission, who's going to be backup, etc. Your reputation is the exact opposite of that. I would like to hear you speak about that.

[User] Well, I was so pleased to be associated with the program, because it was going, it was happening, it was exciting. The goals, I thought, were important to not just the United States, but to society in general. I would have been happy doing anything they told me to do. It's probably true that I was less inclined to be concerned about just what job I had than some were. I think they're all different people, they all had different kinds of views on that subject.\n\n It wasn't as obvious to me as some of the stories I've read have portrayed it. I looked forward to an actual flight assignment as much as anyone, as opposed to being in the backup role, but the backup role, I thought, was an important job, and just might turn out that we had to be ready, and we were going to be ready. As you know, in some flights it did turn out that the backup crews, or members of them, had to step in.

[Assistant] During the mission, how closely were you involved with evaluating various problems, like fuel cell problems or the thruster excess water production? What were your duties in assisting evaluation for, say, fuel cell problems? Did you have a specialty that you really knew more than the others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not a fuel cell expert. We were at the Cape. Elliot See and [I] came back immediately after launch and actually talked to the spacecraft when it went overhead at the end of the first orbit, from our T-38, on VHF [very high frequency], and came back and landed immediately, went to mission control and made ourselves available to help with the flight. So we were both involved throughout that entire flight. Certainly all the various problems that they bumped into on that flight, we were very much involved, but I can't recall any specific aspects of it.

[Assistant] What were, then, the different requirements for the commander as opposed to a pilot on these missions? What made the commander—what different responsibilities did the commander have?

[User] Well, we tried to divide the responsibilities such that each crew person was about equally loaded. We tried for each person to be able to know how to do everything if they had to, but we divided the responsibilities such that each would go into their area in [substantially] more depth. That worked pretty well. I don't think it was practical or maybe even possible for both crew men to know everything in the same degree of depth on every subject. So it was a shared responsibility situation.\n\n The commander, I guess, principally differs because he has the responsibility for the decisions, just as the commander of a ship or commander of an airliner or anything.

[Assistant] If necessary, the commander can override.

[User] Yes. He's always responsible for his craft. There was probably more concern as to when there were differences of opinion, would be the differences of opinion between those in flight and those in mission control, but I think we worked that out pretty well. We had great respect [for] the guys down there, the guys and gals in mission control.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about the relations between mission controllers and the astronaut corps. You just characterized it during this period—I guess you did—as pretty good. You felt there was respect for each other's job. But did tensions flare? "Hey, you don't realize what we're dealing with, guys?"


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we tried to divide the responsibilities such that each crew person was about equally loaded. We tried for each person to be able to know how to do everything if they had to, but we divided the responsibilities such that each would go into their area in [substantially] more depth. That worked pretty well. I don't think it was practical or maybe even possible for both crew men to know everything in the same degree of depth on every subject. So it was a shared responsibility situation.\n\n The commander, I guess, principally differs because he has the responsibility for the decisions, just as the commander of a ship or commander of an airliner or anything.

[Assistant] If necessary, the commander can override.

[User] Yes. He's always responsible for his craft. There was probably more concern as to when there were differences of opinion, would be the differences of opinion between those in flight and those in mission control, but I think we worked that out pretty well. We had great respect [for] the guys down there, the guys and gals in mission control.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about the relations between mission controllers and the astronaut corps. You just characterized it during this period—I guess you did—as pretty good. You felt there was respect for each other's job. But did tensions flare? "Hey, you don't realize what we're dealing with, guys?"

[User] Sometimes it did. We were fortunate that on the flights I was involved in, I don't think we had any problems of any significant magnitude in that category. Generally the people in flight and the people in mission control were on the same frequency most of the time.

[Assistant] There was not a "we" and "them"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He's always responsible for his craft. There was probably more concern as to when there were differences of opinion, would be the differences of opinion between those in flight and those in mission control, but I think we worked that out pretty well. We had great respect [for] the guys down there, the guys and gals in mission control.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about the relations between mission controllers and the astronaut corps. You just characterized it during this period—I guess you did—as pretty good. You felt there was respect for each other's job. But did tensions flare? "Hey, you don't realize what we're dealing with, guys?"

[User] Sometimes it did. We were fortunate that on the flights I was involved in, I don't think we had any problems of any significant magnitude in that category. Generally the people in flight and the people in mission control were on the same frequency most of the time.

[Assistant] There was not a "we" and "them"?

[User] No. It's "we" and "we."

[Assistant] Can you describe a little bit your training for the Gemini VIII mission? How was that different from your other training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sometimes it did. We were fortunate that on the flights I was involved in, I don't think we had any problems of any significant magnitude in that category. Generally the people in flight and the people in mission control were on the same frequency most of the time.

[Assistant] There was not a "we" and "them"?

[User] No. It's "we" and "we."

[Assistant] Can you describe a little bit your training for the Gemini VIII mission? How was that different from your other training?

[User] Well, I'd already been through one cycle with Gemini V. I knew generally the content of the preparation. The differences were those things that would be different between the flights. We were going to have a rendezvous, which Gemini V did not have. We were going to have an extravehicular backpack in the back. We had experiments that were different than the experiments on Gemini V. So we probably concentrated somewhat more on the things that were different.\n\n We still did practice the rendezvous and practiced the launches and practiced the entry steering and all those kinds of thing. You had to sort of fill the squares and make sure you had done enough of those that you felt confident in your ability and people that were watching you on the ground, and…grading how you did. You also felt confident that you were in control of your destiny.

[Assistant] How well did you know Dave Scott at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It's "we" and "we."

[Assistant] Can you describe a little bit your training for the Gemini VIII mission? How was that different from your other training?

[User] Well, I'd already been through one cycle with Gemini V. I knew generally the content of the preparation. The differences were those things that would be different between the flights. We were going to have a rendezvous, which Gemini V did not have. We were going to have an extravehicular backpack in the back. We had experiments that were different than the experiments on Gemini V. So we probably concentrated somewhat more on the things that were different.\n\n We still did practice the rendezvous and practiced the launches and practiced the entry steering and all those kinds of thing. You had to sort of fill the squares and make sure you had done enough of those that you felt confident in your ability and people that were watching you on the ground, and…grading how you did. You also felt confident that you were in control of your destiny.

[Assistant] How well did you know Dave Scott at the time?

[User] I had not known Dave well at all at Edwards, so I only got to know him when he came to Houston, but I liked working with Dave. He was very good at what he did. He was diligent and he was hard working. I felt confident in his ability to handle his part of the responsibilities.

[Assistant] Then the backup crew, Conrad and [Richard F.] Gordon. I was just wondering how—I've never quite understood this. How did NASA decide who was going to be in which position and which mission? It wasn’t for that particular mission they felt one of you had a better skill? It was just to rotate you all and give you equal experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I can't make too much of it. I think generally you try to keep going as long as you safely can and try to save the flight, the objectives, and try to put everything back together. At some point you just have to make the decision that, “I can't take the risk of pursuing my goal further, because I have to go back to the foundation instincts”, which is save your craft, save the folks, get back home, and be disappointed that you had to leave some of your goals behind.

[Assistant] What was the reaction in mission control when you reentered communications with them? Were they quickly able to adapt to the situation?

[User] Well, we didn't have much communication with mission control. You see, Murphy's Law says bad things always happen at worst possible times. In this case, we were in [orbits that] didn't go over any stations. We were sort of out of radio contact most of the time, and when we were [in contact], it was over the Rose Knot Victor or the Coastal Sentry Quebec, the ships that were at sea. They had limited ability to communicate back with mission control and transmit data to them. So our communication was just with the people on those ships, and they were trying as best they could to be helpful and identify things, but it was a real challenge for them, because there wasn't much to be gained. They could see that we had a problem, but as far as deciphering that problem, I think they were, in general, as much mystified as we were.

[Assistant] When you started heading back towards Earth, did you start worrying about now you're going to have to land in some remote location, have to have a splashdown, or "Are we going to be found?" I would think I'd almost be more terrified with splashing down into the ocean and being unfound in a capsule there that might have a leak or something. Or you just keep trying to go over?

[User] Being an old navy guy, I much preferred coming down in the water to coming down in Red China at the time.

[Assistant] And they found you okay. Was there a lot of lag time between your rescue and pickup?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it predominantly is experience over training. Training certainly helps, but having been in flying machines for many years and faced a lot of difficulty, [pilots] become accustomed to being required to solve problems as they arise …, and particularly test pilots who get a higher percentage of things going wrong than normal pilots. And I'm not saying that we did it perfectly in every case; I'm sure we didn't. But the experience that we'd had in flying a variety of different kind of machines in difficult circumstances certainly enhances your ability to look at a situation, … analyze it and determine what your probable best course is and how much latitude you have to deviate from that best course. It's not an easy subject to describe adequately, but it seems to have worked.

[Assistant] It's a quite wonderful answer, and it's got me to think, the men of World War II whom I've interviewed, almost none of them, not even the regular army officers, nobody had ever been in anything like World War II before it came about, and they had to rely on their training, but you had experience and you did as you just said. So if you're leading a squad forward into an attack on a terrain that is different from any other, there's no experience you can draw on, on that. It's got to be training. But in your case—that's just quite a wonderful answer.\n\n And it also got me thinking of you're afraid you're going to pass out and you're reeling around in space and all the rest, made me think about that guy last Tuesday on that plane that crashed, that he sent down in Pennsylvania, and he just made this news, "Screw this. I'm going to die anyway."

[User] I think that's what happened.

[Assistant] "I'm going to act on that basis."

[User] Yes. There are a lot of scenarios you can conjure about that, but one of them is right, because they did decide to try to regain control of the aircraft, and there was some kind of a battle between the people on board and it didn't end up the way they wanted. Could have ended up worse, too.

[Assistant] Those are real heroes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that's what happened.

[Assistant] "I'm going to act on that basis."

[User] Yes. There are a lot of scenarios you can conjure about that, but one of them is right, because they did decide to try to regain control of the aircraft, and there was some kind of a battle between the people on board and it didn't end up the way they wanted. Could have ended up worse, too.

[Assistant] Those are real heroes.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant]
All this training, as exciting as it is to hear your career, there's a lot of sacrifice you're making constantly. You're living in far flung, in the desert, in California, in Houston as it's just starting to really grow, and difficulty—

Some people would think it's a sacrifice to live in Houston.

And raising children, and different hours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There are a lot of scenarios you can conjure about that, but one of them is right, because they did decide to try to regain control of the aircraft, and there was some kind of a battle between the people on board and it didn't end up the way they wanted. Could have ended up worse, too.

[Assistant] Those are real heroes.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant]
All this training, as exciting as it is to hear your career, there's a lot of sacrifice you're making constantly. You're living in far flung, in the desert, in California, in Houston as it's just starting to really grow, and difficulty—

Some people would think it's a sacrifice to live in Houston.

And raising children, and different hours.

[User] Just in August, though.

[Assistant] Well, I would think anything's worth it just to see Earth, just to see Earth from that perspective for a pilot. That must have been something that's so awesome.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant]
All this training, as exciting as it is to hear your career, there's a lot of sacrifice you're making constantly. You're living in far flung, in the desert, in California, in Houston as it's just starting to really grow, and difficulty—

Some people would think it's a sacrifice to live in Houston.

And raising children, and different hours.

[User] Just in August, though.

[Assistant] Well, I would think anything's worth it just to see Earth, just to see Earth from that perspective for a pilot. That must have been something that's so awesome.

[User] You can see these pictures [points to book The Infinite Journey: Eyewitness Accounts of NASA and the Age of Space by William E. Burrows] and kind of get an idea, but you can take a picture of the Grand Canyon, too, and it's not the same as standing on the rim and looking down there. I think it's the same here. A picture does a great job, but it's not nearly like being there.

[Assistant] I can't imagine. [Laughter] At that moment, did a kind of calm come over you when you see Earth like that? Is it almost a religious experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just in August, though.

[Assistant] Well, I would think anything's worth it just to see Earth, just to see Earth from that perspective for a pilot. That must have been something that's so awesome.

[User] You can see these pictures [points to book The Infinite Journey: Eyewitness Accounts of NASA and the Age of Space by William E. Burrows] and kind of get an idea, but you can take a picture of the Grand Canyon, too, and it's not the same as standing on the rim and looking down there. I think it's the same here. A picture does a great job, but it's not nearly like being there.

[Assistant] I can't imagine. [Laughter] At that moment, did a kind of calm come over you when you see Earth like that? Is it almost a religious experience?

[User] I don't know how to answer that. It probably affects different people in different ways. It is spectacular, and I think everyone is touched by it when they have the experience, but I don't know what goes on in other people's minds.

[Assistant] Let's move into the early Apollo program. The Apollo program started off with a tragedy. Can you share with us how the AS-204, Apollo 1 fire affected you personally, if you have any memories of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can see these pictures [points to book The Infinite Journey: Eyewitness Accounts of NASA and the Age of Space by William E. Burrows] and kind of get an idea, but you can take a picture of the Grand Canyon, too, and it's not the same as standing on the rim and looking down there. I think it's the same here. A picture does a great job, but it's not nearly like being there.

[Assistant] I can't imagine. [Laughter] At that moment, did a kind of calm come over you when you see Earth like that? Is it almost a religious experience?

[User] I don't know how to answer that. It probably affects different people in different ways. It is spectacular, and I think everyone is touched by it when they have the experience, but I don't know what goes on in other people's minds.

[Assistant] Let's move into the early Apollo program. The Apollo program started off with a tragedy. Can you share with us how the AS-204, Apollo 1 fire affected you personally, if you have any memories of that?

[User] Oh yes, I remember it very well. I'd known Gus [Virgil I. Grissom] for a long time. Ed [Edward H.] White [II] and I bought some property together and split it. I built my house on one-half of it, and he built his house on the other. We were good friends, neighbors. Some very traumatic times. You know, I suppose you're much more likely to accept loss of a friend in flight, but it really hurt to lose them in a ground test. That was an indictment of ourselves. I mean, [it happened] because we didn't do the right thing somehow. That's doubly, doubly traumatic.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the investigation of what occurred?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know how to answer that. It probably affects different people in different ways. It is spectacular, and I think everyone is touched by it when they have the experience, but I don't know what goes on in other people's minds.

[Assistant] Let's move into the early Apollo program. The Apollo program started off with a tragedy. Can you share with us how the AS-204, Apollo 1 fire affected you personally, if you have any memories of that?

[User] Oh yes, I remember it very well. I'd known Gus [Virgil I. Grissom] for a long time. Ed [Edward H.] White [II] and I bought some property together and split it. I built my house on one-half of it, and he built his house on the other. We were good friends, neighbors. Some very traumatic times. You know, I suppose you're much more likely to accept loss of a friend in flight, but it really hurt to lose them in a ground test. That was an indictment of ourselves. I mean, [it happened] because we didn't do the right thing somehow. That's doubly, doubly traumatic.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the investigation of what occurred?

[User] No, I was not. If I remember correctly, Frank Borman was involved in the leadership of that investigation.

[Assistant] There are some people that say that that tragedy in many ways started helping get a better sense of focus and discipline with NASA in exactly what it would take to make a lunar landing. Did you find a change around NASA in general, a more seriousness of intent, more triple-checking of everything before, taking nothing for granted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, I remember it very well. I'd known Gus [Virgil I. Grissom] for a long time. Ed [Edward H.] White [II] and I bought some property together and split it. I built my house on one-half of it, and he built his house on the other. We were good friends, neighbors. Some very traumatic times. You know, I suppose you're much more likely to accept loss of a friend in flight, but it really hurt to lose them in a ground test. That was an indictment of ourselves. I mean, [it happened] because we didn't do the right thing somehow. That's doubly, doubly traumatic.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the investigation of what occurred?

[User] No, I was not. If I remember correctly, Frank Borman was involved in the leadership of that investigation.

[Assistant] There are some people that say that that tragedy in many ways started helping get a better sense of focus and discipline with NASA in exactly what it would take to make a lunar landing. Did you find a change around NASA in general, a more seriousness of intent, more triple-checking of everything before, taking nothing for granted?

[User] Partly that. Secondarily, and perhaps even more importantly, we were given the gift of time. We didn't want that gift, but we were given months and months to not only fix the spacecraft, but rethink all our previous decisions, plans, and strategies, and change a lot of things, hopefully for the better.\n\n Same thing happened after the Challenger [51-L] explosion. They got time and they fixed a lot of things that needed to be fixed and they never had time to do it before. So we get an added benefit, but we regret the price we had to pay.

[Assistant] Let me interrupt for this second. Test pilots are losing friends often. And you must have lost some friends.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not. If I remember correctly, Frank Borman was involved in the leadership of that investigation.

[Assistant] There are some people that say that that tragedy in many ways started helping get a better sense of focus and discipline with NASA in exactly what it would take to make a lunar landing. Did you find a change around NASA in general, a more seriousness of intent, more triple-checking of everything before, taking nothing for granted?

[User] Partly that. Secondarily, and perhaps even more importantly, we were given the gift of time. We didn't want that gift, but we were given months and months to not only fix the spacecraft, but rethink all our previous decisions, plans, and strategies, and change a lot of things, hopefully for the better.\n\n Same thing happened after the Challenger [51-L] explosion. They got time and they fixed a lot of things that needed to be fixed and they never had time to do it before. So we get an added benefit, but we regret the price we had to pay.

[Assistant] Let me interrupt for this second. Test pilots are losing friends often. And you must have lost some friends.

[User] Many, many.

[Assistant] You hit me hard with that, "This was on the ground." Whew.