[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course. Yes, I don’t remember if I asked George or if he just said, “Yes, of course you can tell Rhea.” I probably called Mom and Dad that night. I suspect I called Mom and Dad that night to tell them.

[Assistant] Because why not? That’s not a public announcement.

[User] Oh yes, but would have told them, “Hey, don’t blab it.”

[Assistant] Don’t go telling the LA Times.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If you would talk about that crew and the crew relationship, that was a diverse crew. Had you worked with any of those folks before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m going to take a chance that it was unclassified. There was a problem on STS—which one took up the first TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite]?

[Assistant] I think it was [STS]-6.

[User] Six, okay. There was a problem with the IUS [Inertial Upper Stage]. That’s what delayed STS-10 because they were using the IUS. They wound up slipping, so 41B, STS-11 wound up being the tenth launch. That’s why we slipped into the tenth place.\n\n Now I’ll probably go to jail because that was probably still secret. No, actually I don’t think it is. I don’t think it is, because in the case of [STS]-27, for example, I am allowed to say that we went to 57 degrees. We carried a major new DoD intelligence satellite, deployed it with the robot arm.

[Assistant] You didn’t test duct tape as Rhea says in her book? I think that’s what she said. You went to space to test duct tape.

[User] To test duct tape. Yes, because the only photos that we could really show are us in the cabin, and there’s a photo of me sitting in the commander’s seat. Behind my seat stuck to the wall is a whole roll of duct tape. So frequently I would show that slide when I was talking and say, “Well, I really can’t tell you anything about the mission except that we were there to test duct tape.”

[Assistant] I thought that was amusing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They are in the public domain. That’s the other thing. You don’t need permission to use them. But I suppose—well, lawyers will do anything. If you tell them, “I want to sue this nice gal,” they’ll do it.

[Assistant] What we’ll do at the end when we get your final copy, we’ll put on the Web, we’ll put those photos, and we’ll differentiate. We’ll show a picture of Ron’s and show a picture of yours. I think that would be a good idea. I think it would be interesting.

[User] I’ve seen some of Ron’s pictures in other magazines where they’re talking about photography. The description on this one says, “The horizon being at an angle makes for a really interesting photograph.” I’m thinking, “This is totally opposite of what we got trained.” But it did. I think it made an interesting picture as well.

[Assistant] That’s fascinating. I had heard that he had shot that photo, but then I had read in other sources that you shot the photo. So it reminded me of the Apollo 8 earthrise image. I thought well, who really shot that photo, you know how everyone takes credit for it. That’s great, so we can differentiate.

[User] Yes, we can, because the camera that I was using had the 80-millimeter lens and the one Ron used had the 250. The ones Ron shot were at a farther distance away, but then the telephoto brings it up closer. The big way was that every single one that I shot I made the horizon level, so that’s how I could tell.

[Assistant] I always like to ask people, especially their first mission, to walk us through your memories of that day: getting up at crew quarters, getting ready, the breakfast, all the way through launch and getting up into space that first time. What are your recollections of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, excellent. Yes, you wanted to be real nice to him because he was a black belt in karate as well. He could kill you with his bare hands. You always wanted to be very nice to him, which was easy, he was very nice as well.

[Assistant] Nowadays I’m thinking how the crews on orbit for ISS—they can do Skype, they can e-mail with people, stay in touch with family. How’d you stay in touch with Rhea and Paul and Julie? Did you have a chance when you were on orbit?

[User] We didn’t. No, we didn’t. On 41B, Jennifer, my recollection is there was no contact at all. At some point down the line we had the laptops on board, and we could send a message down to the ground and we could get messages back. I remember on Rhea’s flights Trudy Davis was our coordinator for that stuff, and she’d get ahold of us and say, “Hey, do you have something you’d like to send up to Rhea? Do you or the kids have something you’d like to?” So you’d write up something. Then she’d get it input. It would all go up in a packet, and same deal, we could send a packet of messages down as well.\n\n On 41B we didn’t have that in place. It might have been that they could put one or two things on the teleprinter like, “We watched the launch, and you look great.” Maybe something would come up on the teleprinter. Later on we did have that thing where you could get on the laptop and type up a message to your family and they could send stuff back up to you.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] Yes. As you know I’m sure, that’s one of the things that they found on these long duration flights that boy, people need to be able to be in contact with their families.

[Assistant] What are your memories of getting to Florida and seeing Rhea and Julie? From the book I understand Paul was at home in Houston when you landed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I had one other question but it’s just a little bit after noon. I don’t know if you have lunch plans with anybody. So I don’t want to hold you.

[User] Didn’t really.

[Assistant] Okay, I wasn’t sure, I always hate to keep people here and somebody says, “Oh, I really needed to go about a half an hour ago.”

[User] Oh no, heavens, no. No, in fact we can keep going if you want to keep going.

[Assistant] We can keep going for a little bit. Wanted to ask you about any interesting PRs. You mentioned going to Jackson, Mississippi. Any other place? Hometowns, things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn’t really.

[Assistant] Okay, I wasn’t sure, I always hate to keep people here and somebody says, “Oh, I really needed to go about a half an hour ago.”

[User] Oh no, heavens, no. No, in fact we can keep going if you want to keep going.

[Assistant] We can keep going for a little bit. Wanted to ask you about any interesting PRs. You mentioned going to Jackson, Mississippi. Any other place? Hometowns, things like that?

[User] Oh golly. There was a really fascinating PR—I don’t know if Rhea talked about it—that happened before the mission. Oh, Vance Brand was so mad at me. This was early in our training cycle. We were launching in February. I think we probably got assigned maybe the end of February of ’83, and we were tracking down to February of ’84. Rhea had a PR that she was doing in Australia. That was going to be in April of ’83. She was over there. Now we’ve started training on 41B.\n\n Rhea got a call I think maybe before she went over there. It was the White House. Did she tell you about this at all?

[Assistant] I think I remember seeing it in her blog, of all places.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it sure was. Yes, it sure was. Of course then I got back and Vance got over it. He didn’t hold it against me. He actually became convinced that I had done my darnedest to try to get out of it, so all’s well.

[Assistant] Probably your hometown PR paled in comparison to that.

[User] Yes, that’s true. After the mission there were some hometown things. My folks were living in Lakewood, California, when I went into the Navy. Went back to Lakewood, and of course they had a big thing there, the mayor and the city council. That was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] I imagine.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you like to stop and have some lunch? Or do you want to keep going for a little bit? What’s your preference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you like to stop and have some lunch? Or do you want to keep going for a little bit? What’s your preference?

[User] Do you need to go break for lunch right now? We could go till maybe 12:30.

[Assistant] That’s fine.

[User] Then break. Because we’re going to go what, 2:00 to 4:00 again?

[Assistant] Two to 4:00, yes. I’m hoping they turn up the heat. I don’t know. Are you cold?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you need to go break for lunch right now? We could go till maybe 12:30.

[Assistant] That’s fine.

[User] Then break. Because we’re going to go what, 2:00 to 4:00 again?

[Assistant] Two to 4:00, yes. I’m hoping they turn up the heat. I don’t know. Are you cold?

[User] It’s a little bit cool, yes.

[Assistant] It’s a little nippy in here. I’m hoping I can adjust the heat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a little bit cool, yes.

[Assistant] It’s a little nippy in here. I’m hoping I can adjust the heat.

[User] You know what we had when I worked in SAIL? Oh, let’s see. What was his name? The astronauts, we had a couple desks in one of the offices with Dave. One of the guys that worked in SAIL. You couldn’t adjust your thermostats.

[Assistant] No?

[User] No, you couldn’t adjust them, you couldn’t change them. He invented something that we called the Dave whatever his last name was, the Dave something or other thermostat fooler. It was basically a washcloth that you dipped in water. You’d wrap it around the thermostat, and the evaporation would cause the temperature to be a little bit lower at that thermostat where the thermostat was sensing it, so it would turn up the heat in the rest of the room.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s a good idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know what we had when I worked in SAIL? Oh, let’s see. What was his name? The astronauts, we had a couple desks in one of the offices with Dave. One of the guys that worked in SAIL. You couldn’t adjust your thermostats.

[Assistant] No?

[User] No, you couldn’t adjust them, you couldn’t change them. He invented something that we called the Dave whatever his last name was, the Dave something or other thermostat fooler. It was basically a washcloth that you dipped in water. You’d wrap it around the thermostat, and the evaporation would cause the temperature to be a little bit lower at that thermostat where the thermostat was sensing it, so it would turn up the heat in the rest of the room.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s a good idea.

[User] So you could have a Hoot Gibson thermostat fooler.

[Assistant] I like that. Because in some offices they do that, they actually lock the thermostat, so you don’t adjust them. This one I think, Rebecca’s, you can adjust. I know in my office I’ve adjusted it. We’re not technically supposed to. Sometimes it gets a little chilly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, you couldn’t adjust them, you couldn’t change them. He invented something that we called the Dave whatever his last name was, the Dave something or other thermostat fooler. It was basically a washcloth that you dipped in water. You’d wrap it around the thermostat, and the evaporation would cause the temperature to be a little bit lower at that thermostat where the thermostat was sensing it, so it would turn up the heat in the rest of the room.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s a good idea.

[User] So you could have a Hoot Gibson thermostat fooler.

[Assistant] I like that. Because in some offices they do that, they actually lock the thermostat, so you don’t adjust them. This one I think, Rebecca’s, you can adjust. I know in my office I’ve adjusted it. We’re not technically supposed to. Sometimes it gets a little chilly.

[User] The ones over in SAIL, they weren’t adjustable; you couldn’t change them. We had the Dave thermostat fooler.

[Assistant] Around here they keep the air conditioner, I don’t know, 65 at all times of the year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you could have a Hoot Gibson thermostat fooler.

[Assistant] I like that. Because in some offices they do that, they actually lock the thermostat, so you don’t adjust them. This one I think, Rebecca’s, you can adjust. I know in my office I’ve adjusted it. We’re not technically supposed to. Sometimes it gets a little chilly.

[User] The ones over in SAIL, they weren’t adjustable; you couldn’t change them. We had the Dave thermostat fooler.

[Assistant] Around here they keep the air conditioner, I don’t know, 65 at all times of the year.

[User] Well, it gets hot here in the summer.

[Assistant] It does in the summer, but in the winter I don’t know why we need to run an air conditioner.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The ones over in SAIL, they weren’t adjustable; you couldn’t change them. We had the Dave thermostat fooler.

[Assistant] Around here they keep the air conditioner, I don’t know, 65 at all times of the year.

[User] Well, it gets hot here in the summer.

[Assistant] It does in the summer, but in the winter I don’t know why we need to run an air conditioner.

[User] Yes, let’s be warmer in the winter.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I wanted to ask you—I had asked Rhea when we sat down for some interviews. I asked her about her spouse duties, because of course as a spouse to an astronaut you had responsibilities like the parties and things of that nature.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it gets hot here in the summer.

[Assistant] It does in the summer, but in the winter I don’t know why we need to run an air conditioner.

[User] Yes, let’s be warmer in the winter.

[Assistant] Absolutely. I wanted to ask you—I had asked Rhea when we sat down for some interviews. I asked her about her spouse duties, because of course as a spouse to an astronaut you had responsibilities like the parties and things of that nature.

[User] Oh golly, yes.

[Assistant] So one of the things that I wanted to ask about though was you had a toddler at home. You had a very busy hectic job. You were out at AOD, and Rhea was preparing for her first flight. How did you manage all of that with a toddler in tow and two very active careers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She did. Then subsequent to that, golly, her oldest son wound up living and working in Paris, so in later years she flew to Paris. Then I think years later he moved to Mexico City and she flew down to Mexico City. So she really became a world traveler.

[Assistant] That’s neat. That’s wonderful that that happened. I was always just curious how it worked before.

[User] Oh golly, yes.

[Assistant] I understand the challenges much more now myself.

[User] Yes, they were some big challenges, but several of the secretaries in the Office were willing to come over to our house and spend the night with Paul and watch him and get him. At that point I guess he was big enough they could get him to school in the morning. Or maybe they would just be there until Shirley or Martha showed up when we had them working for us. But yes, it was a challenge.

[Assistant] You can’t leave a three-year-old alone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh golly, yes.

[Assistant] I understand the challenges much more now myself.

[User] Yes, they were some big challenges, but several of the secretaries in the Office were willing to come over to our house and spend the night with Paul and watch him and get him. At that point I guess he was big enough they could get him to school in the morning. Or maybe they would just be there until Shirley or Martha showed up when we had them working for us. But yes, it was a challenge.

[Assistant] You can’t leave a three-year-old alone.

[User] No.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about planning of the party. You had mentioned that Rhea had had that party for your first flight. What’d you do for her flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were some big challenges, but several of the secretaries in the Office were willing to come over to our house and spend the night with Paul and watch him and get him. At that point I guess he was big enough they could get him to school in the morning. Or maybe they would just be there until Shirley or Martha showed up when we had them working for us. But yes, it was a challenge.

[Assistant] You can’t leave a three-year-old alone.

[User] No.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about planning of the party. You had mentioned that Rhea had had that party for your first flight. What’d you do for her flight?

[User] Same thing. We had the prelaunch parties. Rhea did all the work to put those together too.

[Assistant] Oh, she did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did wind up that way. Yes, I had heard either Charlie or one of the guys say, yes, this was the end of the year clearance flight. We were supposed to have two satellites. There was a problem with one of them either with the booster or with the satellite itself, so the company had elected to pull it off the mission. Here we are, we’re left with just one satellite, with the Materials Science Laboratory. We had a whole lot of experiments to do, but we didn’t really have enough to fill up a whole mission.\n\n There has been suggested that the reason we didn’t get canceled outright was because we had Congressman Nelson on board. It may be. I think I’ve heard Pinky use that expression, the end of year clearance flight. Whatever cats and dogs we had left over we scraped onto Columbia and went and flew it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it weren’t [for] the fact that we had Bill Nelson on board—that kept us from getting just outright canceled and move those different parts onto other missions. Probably in that regard we were lucky. I’ll bet NASA would have been really hesitant to cancel the flight that had the congressman on it. There may be some real validity to that.

[Assistant] As we were talking I thought of one additional thing. I remember a few years ago I had sent you a drawing that someone had made of a dragon and a patch. I wondered if you would put that on the recording.

[User] It was, and I did that drawing.

[Assistant] I’ll see if I can track that down again. I remember seeing it.

[User] You probably still have a copy of that, don’t you?

[Assistant] It’s in the archive. I just need to remember where it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there’s quite a bit we can talk about 27.

[Assistant] Yes, you had a wide variety of missions. STS-47 and 71.

[User] Did you happen to watch Secret Space Escapes?

[Assistant] No, I don’t think I’ve seen that.

[User] That was on the Science Channel. I just got a copy of it. You probably know STS-27 we had all that tile damage.

[Assistant] Yes, I was thinking about that when you were talking about the other problem you had with the OMS.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you happen to watch Secret Space Escapes?

[Assistant] No, I don’t think I’ve seen that.

[User] That was on the Science Channel. I just got a copy of it. You probably know STS-27 we had all that tile damage.

[Assistant] Yes, I was thinking about that when you were talking about the other problem you had with the OMS.

[User] Yes. They interviewed Mullane, they interviewed me, they interviewed Frank [L.] Culbertson, because he was I guess CapCom for reentry I think for that one. They put together a whole hour program on STS-27.

[Assistant] Oh, I’d love to see that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was on the Science Channel. I just got a copy of it. You probably know STS-27 we had all that tile damage.

[Assistant] Yes, I was thinking about that when you were talking about the other problem you had with the OMS.

[User] Yes. They interviewed Mullane, they interviewed me, they interviewed Frank [L.] Culbertson, because he was I guess CapCom for reentry I think for that one. They put together a whole hour program on STS-27.

[Assistant] Oh, I’d love to see that.

[User] On the difficulties. I don’t know if I can get another copy of it. They sent me a DVD [Digital Video Disc] of it, and it was called Secret Space Escapes. It was on the Science Channel. November I guess is when they actually showed it. They had interviewed Jerry [M.] Linenger and he talked about the fire on Mir. Oh, shoot, I don’t even know who all they interviewed.

[Assistant] We might be able to get a copy of that, because I think they’ve been asking us for stuff from Shuttle-Mir about that. So I wonder if we can get a copy. They haven’t been working with me, they’ve been working with some other colleague.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They interviewed Mullane, they interviewed me, they interviewed Frank [L.] Culbertson, because he was I guess CapCom for reentry I think for that one. They put together a whole hour program on STS-27.

[Assistant] Oh, I’d love to see that.

[User] On the difficulties. I don’t know if I can get another copy of it. They sent me a DVD [Digital Video Disc] of it, and it was called Secret Space Escapes. It was on the Science Channel. November I guess is when they actually showed it. They had interviewed Jerry [M.] Linenger and he talked about the fire on Mir. Oh, shoot, I don’t even know who all they interviewed.

[Assistant] We might be able to get a copy of that, because I think they’ve been asking us for stuff from Shuttle-Mir about that. So I wonder if we can get a copy. They haven’t been working with me, they’ve been working with some other colleague.

[User] Jaime Hanaway, I think, was the one who contacted me. Then when I did the interview I came to Houston. They had set themselves up a little studio in one of the hotels downtown. This would have been like six months ago, something like that, that I came and talked to them. They did a whole entire hour on STS-27 and our mess with the tiles and the reentry. They ramped it up a little bit like they always do, but still it was pretty interesting production that they put together on it.

[Assistant] I’ll see if I can track a copy down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the difficulties. I don’t know if I can get another copy of it. They sent me a DVD [Digital Video Disc] of it, and it was called Secret Space Escapes. It was on the Science Channel. November I guess is when they actually showed it. They had interviewed Jerry [M.] Linenger and he talked about the fire on Mir. Oh, shoot, I don’t even know who all they interviewed.

[Assistant] We might be able to get a copy of that, because I think they’ve been asking us for stuff from Shuttle-Mir about that. So I wonder if we can get a copy. They haven’t been working with me, they’ve been working with some other colleague.

[User] Jaime Hanaway, I think, was the one who contacted me. Then when I did the interview I came to Houston. They had set themselves up a little studio in one of the hotels downtown. This would have been like six months ago, something like that, that I came and talked to them. They did a whole entire hour on STS-27 and our mess with the tiles and the reentry. They ramped it up a little bit like they always do, but still it was pretty interesting production that they put together on it.

[Assistant] I’ll see if I can track a copy down.

[User] It was episode 104 they called it. Episode 101 was “Fire on the Mir” with Jerry Linenger. Episode 104 wound up focusing on STS-27 and the tile damage. They did quite a bang-up job of it. They had some actors. They picked someone who resembled me and someone who resembled Mullane except he had hair. Actually back then Mullane had a little bit of hair. They did quite a good show.

[Assistant] I’ll see. A lot of times people are posting their shows to the Web these days. I’ll have to go out and see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was part of the National Personnel Records Center, and the civilian building was in south St. Louis on 111 Winnebago. All of the civilian personnel records of government employees and other tax records were at that location. At the time, they were designated to serve as one of the two locations where the records recovery would be processed. So there were a number of people there that were involved in it. Lee Gary was the assistant director for civilian records, and Earl Rengstorff was the civilian branch chief, who had oversight of the project. I was a first-line supervisor. We came to have over 100 intermittents who worked on two shifts, a day shift and an evening shift, processing those burned records. That came in what they called "tiger cages," which were about, as I recall, 10 feet high. The cages had big metal bars where the records had been put into the freeze-drying chamber. I think it was in eastern Ohio. Once the records were sufficiently dried, after the initial recovery, they were shipped back to one of the two locations: at the military building or the civilian building. And we would open the cages and then just gradually lift out chunks of records to identify names and service numbers.

[Assistant] So when you started at the National Archives, this was just a few months after the fire. Right? This was in December or so?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Did they–[CROSS TALKING].

[User] Go ahead.

[Assistant] So did they–you started talking about, you know, kind of the records recovery process there. Did they give you training ahead of time on what to do with these records, or did you have some of this experience coming in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Did they–[CROSS TALKING].

[User] Go ahead.

[Assistant] So did they–you started talking about, you know, kind of the records recovery process there. Did they give you training ahead of time on what to do with these records, or did you have some of this experience coming in?

[User] No, I didn't really have any experience with that sort of thing. But I think they felt like, given my educational background, they didn't really need to give me training. There were a number of jobs that I had, and I said, "Well, will I be given training on this or that?" The managers indicated, "Oh, no. I'm sure you can figure it out." It wasn't really all that complicated, Stephanie. There weren't that many steps, really. People would take a portion of the burned records and lift them out of the tiger cages. You might take, like, a couple of armfuls of them or handfuls of them, and then basically just start looking through to see if they all were for various veterans, or if it was all a record that was pertaining to one veteran. When you had that identified, you put it in a manila folder, and then put it in a fresh box where it would go into like a keypunch process, when you filled up an entire cardboard box. They had a group of people who did keypunching at the time, in the morning or like a day and an evening shift, I think, as I recall. The keypunch process would then put a registry number on each one of those manila folders, so that it was possible to identify the veteran by the service number and name. I wasn't given any specific training on it. It was just a fairly simple process of three or four steps.

[Assistant] Okay. And so at this point, you were a day supervisor for this recovery project, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We started at 7:30 a.m., and my shift was over at 4:00 p.m. There was an evening supervisor to process those records as quickly as possible because, as you could imagine, there were people all across the country already writing inquiries about those World War I and World War II records, and veterans, you know, trying to get military benefits. So managers had two shifts going. The evening supervisor was John Carver.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That was his first government job, too. He came from the private industry, and he and I had known each other earlier. Basically, he was the evening supervisor. I was the day supervisor. We also worked mandatory overtime. When I first went to work there, we worked Saturdays and holidays to try to process those records as quickly as possible.

[Assistant] Wow. Okay.

[User] It wasn't really an option, but it wasn't that terrible, because I was young, and it wasn't that much of a burden. It was difficult, but we worked holidays and Saturdays to try to get those things processed as quickly as possible.

[Assistant] Okay, so you said the records were freeze-dried. What does that do to the record? Why were they freeze-dried?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was his first government job, too. He came from the private industry, and he and I had known each other earlier. Basically, he was the evening supervisor. I was the day supervisor. We also worked mandatory overtime. When I first went to work there, we worked Saturdays and holidays to try to process those records as quickly as possible.

[Assistant] Wow. Okay.

[User] It wasn't really an option, but it wasn't that terrible, because I was young, and it wasn't that much of a burden. It was difficult, but we worked holidays and Saturdays to try to get those things processed as quickly as possible.

[Assistant] Okay, so you said the records were freeze-dried. What does that do to the record? Why were they freeze-dried?

[User] It doesn't do any damage to the record. When the records were taken off the sixth floor, they were wet, because the fire had burned for days and days, and the fire department continued to spray water onto the sixth floor. The records that were recovered were all damp and various degrees of wet. NARA managers tried something that was relatively new at the time, and you probably know about it. The NARA managers shipped those records to a freeze-drying chamber. That was, I think, part of—I'm not quite sure at this point. I don't recall. But it was a large freeze-drying chamber, where you could drive large, large groups of records into the chamber, and then it would be sealed, and the moisture would be gradually withdrawn, because it created a vacuum, which took the moisture out of the records. Once they reached a sufficient level of dryness, the records were ready to be shipped back to St. Louis. It was called a freeze-drying process. It was actually more of a vacuum-drying process, although in the process of drying the records, I think they may have been actually frozen to draw the moisture out of them.

[Assistant] And then when they arrived at the Civilian Personnel Records Center, they were dry, but they could still be moldy or discolored or—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About half of them were sent to the civilian records building, which was part of the National Personnel Records Center. The other half was sent to the military personnel records building, which both parts comprise the National Personnel Records Center, much as it is today in St. Louis. So there was, like, a 50-50 division, I guess, close to that, where half of the records went back to the civilian building, and half of them went back to the military building.

[Assistant] Okay. And this is just for space reasons?

[User] Yes. [CROSS TALKING] They didn't have enough room at either building to do all the records because, as I said, they took one of the bays in the civilian building and took the records down off the shelves and took the shelving down so that you had open space to work at tables. We had over 100 people. I think that the military building probably had close to the same number of people, who came in on an intermittent basis. They were mostly students, and they came in at various times during the day and processed the records. They were not full-time employees. They were hired specifically for the project. A lot of them want to work full time for the government because they were students.

[Assistant] Okay. And then they were putting these freeze-dried or vacuum-dried records, you said, into manila folders.

[User] Yeah, they were like typical manila folders you deal with, you know, whatever. They are 8 1/2 by 11 inches. It was just a small fragment. They also had a smaller envelope that was, like, a half-envelope, and you could drop portions of records in–if there was just this very small, one document, they would drop them into a half-file. And so you had the two different types of manila folders, the full-size and the half-size, but they were the same kinds of manila folders that you see today on your desk, probably.

[Assistant] And then were those being entered into a system, like, for data entry? Were they being entered into a system at that time, or was that done later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. It was part of the process. Once you got a cardboard box—and they were, like, records center boxes full of files, because as you gradually processed them during the time you were there, you would fill up a box with the manila folders from front to back or from back to front. When you finished a box, and it was full of recovered records, they were sent to keypunch, and the keypunch people worked, then, subsequent to that recovery process and entered it into a registry system. So it was pretty much, if the record was recovered one day, within a couple of days after that, they were entered into the registry system by being punched. Does that make sense? It wasn't simultaneous. It was two steps in the process: the recovery and folderizing, putting it into a box, and then when the box was full, sending that box into keypunch where there were probably, I think, between 25 and 30 people who worked full time keypunching those records and putting them into a registry system.

[Assistant] Okay. And you had to supervise this entire process?

[User] No, I supervised the recovery and the boxing process. Once it went into the keypunch operator, it was handled by a different supervisor.

[Assistant] I see. Do you know what kind of information they were putting in that registry system? I know that was on the other side, but what information were they putting in there?

[User] I knew what they were putting in. They were putting in the person's name and their service number, or the name and Social Security number, whatever could be identified on that record in terms of the name, service number, or Social Security number. And if you had a partial record with the name and a date of birth, but you didn't have a service number on that document, you underlined the birth date so that it was, name and birth date, or name and service number. Then that was put into the registry file, which was computerized, and then it was assigned to a registry location so that you could search them by their registry location.

[Assistant] I see. So kind of whatever information they can pull from that record.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I supervised the recovery and the boxing process. Once it went into the keypunch operator, it was handled by a different supervisor.

[Assistant] I see. Do you know what kind of information they were putting in that registry system? I know that was on the other side, but what information were they putting in there?

[User] I knew what they were putting in. They were putting in the person's name and their service number, or the name and Social Security number, whatever could be identified on that record in terms of the name, service number, or Social Security number. And if you had a partial record with the name and a date of birth, but you didn't have a service number on that document, you underlined the birth date so that it was, name and birth date, or name and service number. Then that was put into the registry file, which was computerized, and then it was assigned to a registry location so that you could search them by their registry location.

[Assistant] I see. So kind of whatever information they can pull from that record.

[User] Yes. Whatever you pull from the recovered portion of it. In some cases, you know, the service number was burned up. So they didn't have that. But you had portions of documents with the man's name and birth date. I'm saying men–it was mostly men–and birthdate and his name. Then you put that into the registry. If you had a service number, so much the better.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, these records, you said that there's sometimes fragments there. They can be brittle. They obviously had gone through some damage there. Are there any sort of precautions that the intermittent staff had to take when they're handling these records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time, Stephanie, those were not yet accessioned records into the National Archives. They were just in our physical custody. They were still in the legal custody of the Department of the Defense [DOD].

[Assistant] So these were not considered, at the time, permanent records that would be accessioned into the National Archives?

[User] That's correct. They were not permanent. They were considered–geez, what's the archival term for that? Um, they were–[CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Temporary?

[User] They were unscheduled. They weren't considered temporary, and they weren't considered permanent. They were just considered unscheduled. I think part of the process involved, subsequent to that, was to negotiate with the DOD the length of time before they would be accessioned by the National Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. So then at what point–you said that you became a management analyst? At what point were you hired into that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. They were not permanent. They were considered–geez, what's the archival term for that? Um, they were–[CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Temporary?

[User] They were unscheduled. They weren't considered temporary, and they weren't considered permanent. They were just considered unscheduled. I think part of the process involved, subsequent to that, was to negotiate with the DOD the length of time before they would be accessioned by the National Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. So then at what point–you said that you became a management analyst? At what point were you hired into that position?

[User] That was late August or early September 1974. There were a number of management staff positions that were open, and since the project was winding down and, obviously, I needed another job where I would either be assigned to correspondence or some kind of job, and I applied for a management analyst job. And so I went into that position. Then in September, which was initially when I was the supervisory archives technician, I was a [GS-]5. And then when I went into that management analyst series, I guess, much as it is now, it was like a [GS-]5/7/9.

[Assistant] Okay. And you said–[CROSS TALKING].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were unscheduled. They weren't considered temporary, and they weren't considered permanent. They were just considered unscheduled. I think part of the process involved, subsequent to that, was to negotiate with the DOD the length of time before they would be accessioned by the National Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. So then at what point–you said that you became a management analyst? At what point were you hired into that position?

[User] That was late August or early September 1974. There were a number of management staff positions that were open, and since the project was winding down and, obviously, I needed another job where I would either be assigned to correspondence or some kind of job, and I applied for a management analyst job. And so I went into that position. Then in September, which was initially when I was the supervisory archives technician, I was a [GS-]5. And then when I went into that management analyst series, I guess, much as it is now, it was like a [GS-]5/7/9.

[Assistant] Okay. And you said–[CROSS TALKING].

[User] So that was when I joined the management staff.

[Assistant] Okay. So previous to that, you said that the other project was winding down when you applied for this position. So you're saying that all of those records that had been damaged, by that time then, were already in the registry system, and they were re-boxed or...[CROSSTALKING]. So that just lasted a few months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was late August or early September 1974. There were a number of management staff positions that were open, and since the project was winding down and, obviously, I needed another job where I would either be assigned to correspondence or some kind of job, and I applied for a management analyst job. And so I went into that position. Then in September, which was initially when I was the supervisory archives technician, I was a [GS-]5. And then when I went into that management analyst series, I guess, much as it is now, it was like a [GS-]5/7/9.

[Assistant] Okay. And you said–[CROSS TALKING].

[User] So that was when I joined the management staff.

[Assistant] Okay. So previous to that, you said that the other project was winding down when you applied for this position. So you're saying that all of those records that had been damaged, by that time then, were already in the registry system, and they were re-boxed or...[CROSSTALKING]. So that just lasted a few months?

[User] Yes. So it took the process of working at both of the buildings and working, you know, two shifts. So pretty much by August, it was finished at both of the buildings. Now, I wasn't at the military building, so I don't know. It may have gone on for a couple more weeks there, or it may have already been finished. But pretty much by the end of August, after having worked with this, you know, the freeze-dried records for eight months, they were pretty much processed into the registry system, and they were all kept at Page [9700 Page Avenue, St. Louis]. So the ones that were at the civilian building were shipped back to the military building. The ones that were processed at the military building just remained there, because the registry files were all at the military building, where they would be referenced by people who were familiar with military records. They didn't keep them in the civilian building after they had been processed.

[Assistant] Okay. Wow. That seems like it was a pretty efficient process. It went pretty quickly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at the military building on most days, and occasionally I worked at the civilian building, if there was a project. But when I worked on the records monograph for the recovery process, I was only at the military building, because, I believe, most of the resources for that were already at the military building that we used, like pay vouchers and morning reports and all that sort of thing. That was at the military building. So once I started on that monograph, I was just pretty much exclusively at the military building.

[Assistant] Can you talk about the monograph? I know that you compiled this directory of sources, so maybe just describe what you were doing with that, and what the end result was.

[User] Well, we were trying to list every possible source of information for records recovery or, you know, verification of information that could be used to verify military service, like the pay vouchers and the morning reports and sick reports and a lot of those things. So, let me look at the date here. I finished that, I guess, by July of 1975, because that's the date that's on the monograph. And it lists the microfilm records, the paper records. And then part of it is also where there were state resources that people could write to. So it was divided kind of by chapters, and it was also divided by World War I and World War II sources of information. So there's [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Oh, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were trying to list every possible source of information for records recovery or, you know, verification of information that could be used to verify military service, like the pay vouchers and the morning reports and sick reports and a lot of those things. So, let me look at the date here. I finished that, I guess, by July of 1975, because that's the date that's on the monograph. And it lists the microfilm records, the paper records. And then part of it is also where there were state resources that people could write to. So it was divided kind of by chapters, and it was also divided by World War I and World War II sources of information. So there's [CROSS TALKING].

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Oh, go ahead.

[User] The sources—some of them were still in the states. There were sources of medical information, too, from clinical records. So I tried to list all those, too. But by the time I got done, there were literally hundreds of alternate sources that you could go through to try to verify military service or the character of military service, and also verification of states that had collected separation documents that you could write to so far. The states were willing to assist you in sending back information, and sometimes copies of the DD form 214 that was issued to the veteran when he was released from service. There were also things like the court-martial records that were in Suitland, Maryland. If there was a suspicion that the veteran had been court-martialed or received less than honorable service, you could go to those court-martial records. So, does that give you a little bit of the flavor of that monograph? It was given as—

[Assistant] These were sources that were...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Have you ever used one of those machines?

[Assistant] I have. Yes. And I know exactly what you're talking about.

[User] People used to sometimes fall asleep, because it was so difficult to focus your eyes hour after hour on the screen. And I never was that upset with them when I would walk through the aisles if somebody dozed off, because it was hard as heck to be alert for eight hours a day, looking at all those images flashing past your eyes.

[Assistant] Right. Did you work with, or did someone at NARA work with, the military services to determine which records could be used to help reconstruct the military record?

[User] No, not really. We mostly knew things that were available and gathered information, and we had the pay vouchers in St. Louis. They knew that the court-martial records were in Washington [D.C.], and we had copies of all the morning reports from World War II and World War I that were already on microfilm there. They hadn't been used as much, but once the fire occurred, and you had to use them more frequently, we had access to all that kind of thing. And I can’t say that, as far as I know, that they dealt a lot with the military to ask for other sources, because I'm not sure that the military knew of any more sources for, like, World War I and World War II that, you know, the military is more focused on the present day—the branches of the service, as opposed to historical records. There may have been some contact with the Archives [and] the Army and Navy and the Air Force to see if there were sources that they knew about that we didn't have. But that wasn't a real frequent kind of interaction, I don't think.

[Assistant] Okay. So as the records reconstruction branch chief, what were your responsibilities? Were you overseeing the staff using that monograph that you had put together? Or what were your responsibilities as the branch chief?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Cliff then went into correspondence on current Air Force records and worked in the Air Force and then Air Force Reference Branch. And then subsequent to that, he left and went to work at the Chicago Records Center and then San Francisco and then Boston. He was all over the country. But after his initial work on the sixth floor in the recovery [of records], immediately following the fire, and when the fire was out, and it was safe to go back onto the sixth floor, he didn't work in the subsequent steps.

[Assistant] Okay. And in terms of you and others that were going out, it sounds like organizations would invite NARA staff to go talk to them about this process?

[User] Yeah. If it was a veterans’ organization, I think—one time I remember going to a VA hospital in Hannibal and another time to, like, a Purple Heart organization in Alexandria. They would write to the National Archives and ask if there was someone available that could come and talk to a group, on a certain date at a certain time, about the records, you know, the records that were recovered and what was available and how the inquiries were answered. When I spoke at that conference at the University of Iowa, I met one of the ladies who subsequently became one of the great preservationists, Mary Lynn Ritzenthaler, who was actually involved in some of the preservation for the Declaration of Independence. But that was a preservation conference. And so they talked about how you recovered records. And at the time, that freeze-drying or vacuum-drying process was first really on a large scale. It was pioneered in 1973 after the fire. Before that, that process had really not been used or explored too widely when paper records were wet, and because the technology wasn't available to do that.

[Assistant] Interesting. So you did mention a minute ago about NARA or NARS, at that time, being part of the General Services Administration [GSA].

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, I believe it was in 1985 when they separated out and became an independent agency. So let's see here. I think you would have been in the Reconstruction Branch then. Did you notice any changes when that occurred?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. If it was a veterans’ organization, I think—one time I remember going to a VA hospital in Hannibal and another time to, like, a Purple Heart organization in Alexandria. They would write to the National Archives and ask if there was someone available that could come and talk to a group, on a certain date at a certain time, about the records, you know, the records that were recovered and what was available and how the inquiries were answered. When I spoke at that conference at the University of Iowa, I met one of the ladies who subsequently became one of the great preservationists, Mary Lynn Ritzenthaler, who was actually involved in some of the preservation for the Declaration of Independence. But that was a preservation conference. And so they talked about how you recovered records. And at the time, that freeze-drying or vacuum-drying process was first really on a large scale. It was pioneered in 1973 after the fire. Before that, that process had really not been used or explored too widely when paper records were wet, and because the technology wasn't available to do that.

[Assistant] Interesting. So you did mention a minute ago about NARA or NARS, at that time, being part of the General Services Administration [GSA].

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, I believe it was in 1985 when they separated out and became an independent agency. So let's see here. I think you would have been in the Reconstruction Branch then. Did you notice any changes when that occurred?

[User] No, I didn't. I was already in Washington when that occurred. And when they celebrated the independence, I was already the assistant director or the deputy director at the Washington National Records Center. So I was in Suitland, and there was a large celebration at Archives at that—well, what we subsequently called Archives I, which was the building downtown at the time. We didn't have Archives II in College Park. Have you been to that building?

[Assistant] At College Park? Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, I believe it was in 1985 when they separated out and became an independent agency. So let's see here. I think you would have been in the Reconstruction Branch then. Did you notice any changes when that occurred?

[User] No, I didn't. I was already in Washington when that occurred. And when they celebrated the independence, I was already the assistant director or the deputy director at the Washington National Records Center. So I was in Suitland, and there was a large celebration at Archives at that—well, what we subsequently called Archives I, which was the building downtown at the time. We didn't have Archives II in College Park. Have you been to that building?

[Assistant] At College Park? Yes.

[User] Yeah. That building didn't, I think, come online until, like, 1993 or 1994. So there was just the original Archives building, and they had a big celebration in the Rotunda at Archives I when they celebrated independence day. And I, as the assistant director at Suitland, was invited to attend that. So I was very fortunate. I mean, it was one of the first things I did when I went to Washington, because I went there in May of 1984. So I got there in time to celebrate the independence.

[Assistant] Well, that's pretty neat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the transition, which was in 1984 and 1985, there was a lot more publicity. It was kind of odd, but GSA, I think, always tried to keep NARA/NARS as, sort of, subservient and not involved in publicity so much. So basically, I think there was sort of a new sense that we needed to advertise to the American people our services and the fact that we were an agency that kept government records and so forth, and to try to establish a more independent identity and more of a recognized identity nationwide. So yeah, there was a definite transition period, and that went on for years, because as they gradually added more and more people that were involved in those kind of processes, we had more of an outreach to the federal community and to the public than we were ever allowed to have when we were part of the General Services Administration. A lot of what's involved, actually, in establishing that, in the types of activities you're involved in [federal agency records management inspections], we weren't encouraged to go out into federal agencies and review their records practices and things like that when we were part of NARS.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You know, I'm not sure how long you've been with records management, but that was something that kind of grew in the years subsequent to that where we, sort of, took a more active role in trying to go out, establish good records management processes in the federal agencies.

[Assistant] Okay. So I mean, that's understandable...to take a few years or so to really get, you know, get your feet under you and figure out what is the mission and what do we need to do as an agency.

[User] Yeah, there was more of a redefinition of the agency's mission.

[Assistant] And so you said that when this occurred, when the agency separated from GSA, you were the deputy director of the Washington National Records Center. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'm not sure how long you've been with records management, but that was something that kind of grew in the years subsequent to that where we, sort of, took a more active role in trying to go out, establish good records management processes in the federal agencies.

[Assistant] Okay. So I mean, that's understandable...to take a few years or so to really get, you know, get your feet under you and figure out what is the mission and what do we need to do as an agency.

[User] Yeah, there was more of a redefinition of the agency's mission.

[Assistant] And so you said that when this occurred, when the agency separated from GSA, you were the deputy director of the Washington National Records Center. Is that correct?

[User] Yes. I went to work there in May of 1984. So I was already in Washington at that time.

[Assistant] Okay. What were some of your responsibilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fort Worth also had multiple locations.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah. Do you think, over time, this will slow down with that Presidential memo [M-19-21/M-23-07] that came out?

[User] Yes. Well, that really will drastically—yes. It's already happened, because in the last 10 years, the IRS, as you know, converted to electronic records, and you probably file your tax return electronically. Well, that is all they kept. And the Internal Revenue Service keeps those electronic records. So gradually the volume of paper has diminished, and you need less and less and fewer storage areas for all those internal revenue records. And the same thing has happened for Social Security. So as agencies have converted to electronic records over the last— and I'm kind of out of the loop, because I've been retired for over 10 years—but as agencies have converted to electronic records, there have been fewer and fewer—there's fewer and fewer need for storage of textual records. And I think, at one time, Denver was much, much larger in terms of its holdings, because it kept all the paper records from Ogden. So I think if you look at the Denver Records Center, it's much, much smaller now than it was, say, back in the'90s.

[Assistant] Interesting. Well, we have a new facility now north of Denver.

[User] Well, also, as you mentioned, too, under the Archivist Ferriero, they decided that they did not want to take any more textual records. So that, also, is going to have a very dramatic effect and downsizing of the record center system, because there won't be paper records coming into most locations. Suitland, though, will remain large, because a lot of the pre-archival records are stored there. And when I was the director, we looked at projections, and there would be large amounts of paper records stored there through 2050, because so many of those pre-archival, or records that were scheduled permanent, had really long retentions, before they would be turned over to the National Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. They're like permanent, or they're really long-term temporary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, also, as you mentioned, too, under the Archivist Ferriero, they decided that they did not want to take any more textual records. So that, also, is going to have a very dramatic effect and downsizing of the record center system, because there won't be paper records coming into most locations. Suitland, though, will remain large, because a lot of the pre-archival records are stored there. And when I was the director, we looked at projections, and there would be large amounts of paper records stored there through 2050, because so many of those pre-archival, or records that were scheduled permanent, had really long retentions, before they would be turned over to the National Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. They're like permanent, or they're really long-term temporary?

[User] Oh, yes. Well, there were some long-term temporary, but there were also a lot of long-term records that were considered to be permanent, where the agencies would retain legal custody for, like, 50 years or 60 years before it was turned over to NARA.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, they'll be there for a while. [LAUGHS]

[User] Oh, yeah. Suitland will be there for a long time. It'll be one of the last record centers to close. The St. Louis military building, I guess, will never close, because they're getting electronic military records to service. So they will continue their correspondence functions for the foreseeable future.

[Assistant] You said that you've been retired for how long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Well, there were some long-term temporary, but there were also a lot of long-term records that were considered to be permanent, where the agencies would retain legal custody for, like, 50 years or 60 years before it was turned over to NARA.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, they'll be there for a while. [LAUGHS]

[User] Oh, yeah. Suitland will be there for a long time. It'll be one of the last record centers to close. The St. Louis military building, I guess, will never close, because they're getting electronic military records to service. So they will continue their correspondence functions for the foreseeable future.

[Assistant] You said that you've been retired for how long?

[User] I retired in 2011.

[Assistant] Do you remember what that day was like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Suitland will be there for a long time. It'll be one of the last record centers to close. The St. Louis military building, I guess, will never close, because they're getting electronic military records to service. So they will continue their correspondence functions for the foreseeable future.

[Assistant] You said that you've been retired for how long?

[User] I retired in 2011.

[Assistant] Do you remember what that day was like?

[User] What? Pardon? What that day was like?

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you have memories of, you know, did someone throw you a party, or did they do anything special for you when you retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I retired in 2011.

[Assistant] Do you remember what that day was like?

[User] What? Pardon? What that day was like?

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you have memories of, you know, did someone throw you a party, or did they do anything special for you when you retired?

[User] I tried to keep it as low as possible, and keep it a low-key thing. And there was a small reception at the Washington National Records Center. But it was during the Christmas holidays that carried over into January. So, mostly, there were a handful of people there from the building and a few people from the central office who came out. But, for the most part, most of the senior management people were on leave for the holidays, which was okay. I didn't want a large celebration or anything like that, because sometimes some of the things that are said at those kinds of anniversary or retirement parties are not things that people felt all along, up through your career. And, at the end, it seemed like there was a certain amount of insincerity, and I just didn't particularly care for that. And I didn't really feel like I wanted to have that kind of a big celebration or anything like that. I wanted to, just, sort of keep it. So I sent out an announcement to a lot of the people that I'd worked with in the regions. The people I worked with in Central Office, said that I'd worked for NARA, and it was the only agency I worked for, for 37 years, but that I felt like it was time to retire.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there anything that you miss about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What? Pardon? What that day was like?

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you have memories of, you know, did someone throw you a party, or did they do anything special for you when you retired?

[User] I tried to keep it as low as possible, and keep it a low-key thing. And there was a small reception at the Washington National Records Center. But it was during the Christmas holidays that carried over into January. So, mostly, there were a handful of people there from the building and a few people from the central office who came out. But, for the most part, most of the senior management people were on leave for the holidays, which was okay. I didn't want a large celebration or anything like that, because sometimes some of the things that are said at those kinds of anniversary or retirement parties are not things that people felt all along, up through your career. And, at the end, it seemed like there was a certain amount of insincerity, and I just didn't particularly care for that. And I didn't really feel like I wanted to have that kind of a big celebration or anything like that. I wanted to, just, sort of keep it. So I sent out an announcement to a lot of the people that I'd worked with in the regions. The people I worked with in Central Office, said that I'd worked for NARA, and it was the only agency I worked for, for 37 years, but that I felt like it was time to retire.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there anything that you miss about it?

[User] Oh, I think I miss talking and working with some of the people. There were very nice people that worked in Archives II. Some very nice people. And also some very nice people that I worked with in the regions. And I sort of miss that. Occasionally, I still have some interaction with them, if they write, or I talk to them on the telephone.

[Assistant] Well, it looks like I've kept you over a little bit in our scheduled time. Was there anything else that you wanted to add to the interview? Any words of wisdom or stories that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember when Kennedy was running for president and you just fell in love with him, and he was so neat. And I always wanted to travel. And so when he talked about the Peace Corps, oh, I knew that was my niche. Yeah. And my parents were very supportive, although I guess they were a little worried. I don't know. And, um.

[Assistant] Had you traveled any before then?

[User] No, no, no, no.

[Assistant] And how about friends of yours?

[User] I didn't know anyone else who was going in. Um. I guess they would support. I, I don't remember anything particular.

[Assistant] And what was the application process like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no, no.

[Assistant] And how about friends of yours?

[User] I didn't know anyone else who was going in. Um. I guess they would support. I, I don't remember anything particular.

[Assistant] And what was the application process like?

[User] I remember there was some form and it asked you where you wanted to go. And I had always been interested in India and Gandhi, so I said India. And then I got a letter back saying, we have a program in education going to West Africa and we can offer you that. And I said yes. I didn't care. It wasn't that strong that I had to go to India in other words.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And then the initial training that you got, explain that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know anyone else who was going in. Um. I guess they would support. I, I don't remember anything particular.

[Assistant] And what was the application process like?

[User] I remember there was some form and it asked you where you wanted to go. And I had always been interested in India and Gandhi, so I said India. And then I got a letter back saying, we have a program in education going to West Africa and we can offer you that. And I said yes. I didn't care. It wasn't that strong that I had to go to India in other words.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And then the initial training that you got, explain that.

[User] Okay. We were a group of volunteers that all went first to Berkeley, and it was West Africa. Some were going to Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, and I think Sierra Leone. And they identified some people who split off from our group and went to San Francisco State, which was an elementary program, I believe. Well, at the end of that summer, we were supposed to go back. It was between our junior and senior year. And I think it was an experiment for Peace Corps to see how it would work if we were, I think, supposed to go back to our senior year in college and learn about Liberia or wherever we were going. And then we would be so much more knowledgeable when we went back for our second real summer of training.

[Assistant] So you had already been accepted into the Peace Corps before you finished college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember there was some form and it asked you where you wanted to go. And I had always been interested in India and Gandhi, so I said India. And then I got a letter back saying, we have a program in education going to West Africa and we can offer you that. And I said yes. I didn't care. It wasn't that strong that I had to go to India in other words.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And then the initial training that you got, explain that.

[User] Okay. We were a group of volunteers that all went first to Berkeley, and it was West Africa. Some were going to Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, and I think Sierra Leone. And they identified some people who split off from our group and went to San Francisco State, which was an elementary program, I believe. Well, at the end of that summer, we were supposed to go back. It was between our junior and senior year. And I think it was an experiment for Peace Corps to see how it would work if we were, I think, supposed to go back to our senior year in college and learn about Liberia or wherever we were going. And then we would be so much more knowledgeable when we went back for our second real summer of training.

[Assistant] So you had already been accepted into the Peace Corps before you finished college?

[User] Yes. But at the end of the first summer, they deselected some people. And I was the only one who was transferred from the secondary education programs at Berkeley over to the San Francisco State group that were elementary ed teachers. I don't know what, what there was about me that said elementary. And in my later life, I've only worked with intermediate and high school kids so.

[Assistant] Now tell me about the second part of your training then, after you graduated from college.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. We were a group of volunteers that all went first to Berkeley, and it was West Africa. Some were going to Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, and I think Sierra Leone. And they identified some people who split off from our group and went to San Francisco State, which was an elementary program, I believe. Well, at the end of that summer, we were supposed to go back. It was between our junior and senior year. And I think it was an experiment for Peace Corps to see how it would work if we were, I think, supposed to go back to our senior year in college and learn about Liberia or wherever we were going. And then we would be so much more knowledgeable when we went back for our second real summer of training.

[Assistant] So you had already been accepted into the Peace Corps before you finished college?

[User] Yes. But at the end of the first summer, they deselected some people. And I was the only one who was transferred from the secondary education programs at Berkeley over to the San Francisco State group that were elementary ed teachers. I don't know what, what there was about me that said elementary. And in my later life, I've only worked with intermediate and high school kids so.

[Assistant] Now tell me about the second part of your training then, after you graduated from college.

[User] Okay, so that was at San Francisco State. As I remember, it was just regular classroom kind of things. I guess history. And we didn't have to learn a language because the official language of Liberia is English and, um. I, there was a component at the end where they were, um, going on some kind of physical training. And I think they learned how to drive a pickup truck with standard gears. But I didn't have to go because supposedly I had had my physical training the previous year. We went, for that, we just went up to Yosemite, spent a few days camping. Everybody just went off with whoever they wanted to. I guess we had tents and canned food and that was our physical training.

[Assistant] And that was between your junior and senior year you're referring to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But at the end of the first summer, they deselected some people. And I was the only one who was transferred from the secondary education programs at Berkeley over to the San Francisco State group that were elementary ed teachers. I don't know what, what there was about me that said elementary. And in my later life, I've only worked with intermediate and high school kids so.

[Assistant] Now tell me about the second part of your training then, after you graduated from college.

[User] Okay, so that was at San Francisco State. As I remember, it was just regular classroom kind of things. I guess history. And we didn't have to learn a language because the official language of Liberia is English and, um. I, there was a component at the end where they were, um, going on some kind of physical training. And I think they learned how to drive a pickup truck with standard gears. But I didn't have to go because supposedly I had had my physical training the previous year. We went, for that, we just went up to Yosemite, spent a few days camping. Everybody just went off with whoever they wanted to. I guess we had tents and canned food and that was our physical training.

[Assistant] And that was between your junior and senior year you're referring to?

[User] Yes. Yeah. And then I was excused from the other training. So we got to San Francisco for my second summer of training, and there was a regular group who was just starting. And we were referred to as this experienced group, which was a joke. But, uh, we all were together in classes and everything, and the only thing I was excused from was the physical part at the end.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Now you grew up in New York?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, so that was at San Francisco State. As I remember, it was just regular classroom kind of things. I guess history. And we didn't have to learn a language because the official language of Liberia is English and, um. I, there was a component at the end where they were, um, going on some kind of physical training. And I think they learned how to drive a pickup truck with standard gears. But I didn't have to go because supposedly I had had my physical training the previous year. We went, for that, we just went up to Yosemite, spent a few days camping. Everybody just went off with whoever they wanted to. I guess we had tents and canned food and that was our physical training.

[Assistant] And that was between your junior and senior year you're referring to?

[User] Yes. Yeah. And then I was excused from the other training. So we got to San Francisco for my second summer of training, and there was a regular group who was just starting. And we were referred to as this experienced group, which was a joke. But, uh, we all were together in classes and everything, and the only thing I was excused from was the physical part at the end.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Now you grew up in New York?

[User] Yes, correct.

[Assistant] But you went to school out in California, which is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, correct.

[Assistant] But you went to school out in California, which is.

[User] Just for the training.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I went to school in Buffalo, New York.

[Assistant] All right. And then they sent you out for the training in California. You left for your service from California then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just for the training.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I went to school in Buffalo, New York.

[Assistant] All right. And then they sent you out for the training in California. You left for your service from California then?

[User] No, we went home for about two weeks, and then we all went out together.

[Assistant] Where did you leave from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to school in Buffalo, New York.

[Assistant] All right. And then they sent you out for the training in California. You left for your service from California then?

[User] No, we went home for about two weeks, and then we all went out together.

[Assistant] Where did you leave from?

[User] I think it was probably in those days Idlewild, which is JFK now. I don't think it was from LaGuardia.

[Assistant] Tell me about your arrival in Liberia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we went home for about two weeks, and then we all went out together.

[Assistant] Where did you leave from?

[User] I think it was probably in those days Idlewild, which is JFK now. I don't think it was from LaGuardia.

[Assistant] Tell me about your arrival in Liberia.

[User]
You know, I'm trying to think if we had an intermediate stop. We probably did, but I don't remember it. I remember landing at Roberts Field in Monrovia and it being hot. Hot, humid, awful. And there was a Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia, and they took us there and we stayed there for a couple of days. I guess it was like a staging. And people were sent out to the different parts of the country. And I was to go to Cape Palmas, which was the President Tubman's hometown. And it was majestically called Harper City, and it had a traffic light hanging in the middle of a road that never worked. But I think it was in honor of President Tubman.

And we were met at the airport by a volunteer who had been teaching for one year, and his second year was to be as leader. And there was a small Peace Corps office in Harper, and he was there really just to help if there were any problems. And that's where our mail was delivered and, um. I was just outside of town. I had to walk maybe a mile or so into town to get to my school.

[Assistant] Were there other volunteers then in that general area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was probably in those days Idlewild, which is JFK now. I don't think it was from LaGuardia.

[Assistant] Tell me about your arrival in Liberia.

[User]
You know, I'm trying to think if we had an intermediate stop. We probably did, but I don't remember it. I remember landing at Roberts Field in Monrovia and it being hot. Hot, humid, awful. And there was a Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia, and they took us there and we stayed there for a couple of days. I guess it was like a staging. And people were sent out to the different parts of the country. And I was to go to Cape Palmas, which was the President Tubman's hometown. And it was majestically called Harper City, and it had a traffic light hanging in the middle of a road that never worked. But I think it was in honor of President Tubman.

And we were met at the airport by a volunteer who had been teaching for one year, and his second year was to be as leader. And there was a small Peace Corps office in Harper, and he was there really just to help if there were any problems. And that's where our mail was delivered and, um. I was just outside of town. I had to walk maybe a mile or so into town to get to my school.

[Assistant] Were there other volunteers then in that general area?

[User] Oh, yeah. There were probably 12 of us in Harper all together. Yeah. Yeah. Some were, you know, previous, you know, the group before us. Yeah.

[Assistant] What was your home like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Very nice. It was cement block. It was owned by President Tubman's son. He had three rentals. The people next door to me were Dutch Canadians. He worked for the lumber company, and she had two small children. And I shared the house with another volunteer who had been there a year already. And this Liberian girl who cooked for us. I guess she did our laundry. I don't remember. She was a high school student. We paid her tuition at the Catholic high school, and that was for a year.

When she left, I moved into an apartment over a Lebanese store that sold cloth and canned goods and stuff. But it was right next to the marketplace. And, you know, these open markets and there was loud music playing till very late at night. I didn't like living there so much, but it was right in the middle of town. And it was another cement block house. It had pipes and everything for a bathroom, as did the other house, but there was no water coming through the pipes. It had to be hauled in by buckets.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Why did you have to move the second year?

[User] Because she was leaving and I guess they didn't have another new volunteer. They didn't want me in the house all by myself.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So they gave me a new volunteer.

[Assistant] Now, the woman that cooked for you, did she go with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because she was leaving and I guess they didn't have another new volunteer. They didn't want me in the house all by myself.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So they gave me a new volunteer.

[Assistant] Now, the woman that cooked for you, did she go with you?

[User] No. That's when, the young girl, she went to, uh, we paid for her to go to a Catholic. I guess they called it the convent or something, for girls that were going to the Catholic high school. So we paid her tuition.

[Assistant] And what kind of foods did she prepare for you? What was your diet like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they gave me a new volunteer.

[Assistant] Now, the woman that cooked for you, did she go with you?

[User] No. That's when, the young girl, she went to, uh, we paid for her to go to a Catholic. I guess they called it the convent or something, for girls that were going to the Catholic high school. So we paid her tuition.

[Assistant] And what kind of foods did she prepare for you? What was your diet like?

[User] Butter and greens. And she used to bake bread. Oh, that was the best. There was a Firestone plantation about 30, 45 minutes up the road, and they had a store. And we would go up there in the Peace Corps leader's, he had a truck. And there was a small store and they had like frozen meats and things from Denmark and canned goods and stuff that weren't in the regular stores. And so we could buy lots of that stuff and she would fix something from that.

[Assistant] What was the staple food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That's when, the young girl, she went to, uh, we paid for her to go to a Catholic. I guess they called it the convent or something, for girls that were going to the Catholic high school. So we paid her tuition.

[Assistant] And what kind of foods did she prepare for you? What was your diet like?

[User] Butter and greens. And she used to bake bread. Oh, that was the best. There was a Firestone plantation about 30, 45 minutes up the road, and they had a store. And we would go up there in the Peace Corps leader's, he had a truck. And there was a small store and they had like frozen meats and things from Denmark and canned goods and stuff that weren't in the regular stores. And so we could buy lots of that stuff and she would fix something from that.

[Assistant] What was the staple food?

[User] The rice and I guess palm butter and greens and fufu. Dumboy or whatever.

[Assistant] Fufu is made out of cassava?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But I didn't eat that.

[Assistant] Pepper?

[User] Pepper. Yes. They had, the volunteers that were experienced, they had us all for dinner one of the first nights we were there. And the palm butter was so hot, and you're pouring it over the rice. So I was pouring it over. Oh, gosh. My mouth was on fire. And I know they were laughing at all of us. I know that they were. So that's how you learn.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How did you do simple things like laundry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I didn't eat that.

[Assistant] Pepper?

[User] Pepper. Yes. They had, the volunteers that were experienced, they had us all for dinner one of the first nights we were there. And the palm butter was so hot, and you're pouring it over the rice. So I was pouring it over. Oh, gosh. My mouth was on fire. And I know they were laughing at all of us. I know that they were. So that's how you learn.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How did you do simple things like laundry?

[User] The Liberian girl and, you know, for living with us and feeding her and her school fees and everything. She did our laundry. I don't know. By hand. Downstairs in the, there was an empty lot next to the stairs.

[Assistant] And then, um, tell me what job you actually did in Harper.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pepper. Yes. They had, the volunteers that were experienced, they had us all for dinner one of the first nights we were there. And the palm butter was so hot, and you're pouring it over the rice. So I was pouring it over. Oh, gosh. My mouth was on fire. And I know they were laughing at all of us. I know that they were. So that's how you learn.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How did you do simple things like laundry?

[User] The Liberian girl and, you know, for living with us and feeding her and her school fees and everything. She did our laundry. I don't know. By hand. Downstairs in the, there was an empty lot next to the stairs.

[Assistant] And then, um, tell me what job you actually did in Harper.

[User] Okay. They first took me to the Catholic high school and they wanted me to teach algebra. And I have a mental block from small kid time about math. And I kept saying, no, I can't teach algebra. Oh, no. You just stay one page ahead of the kids. And that's how it was left. And I went home and I cried. And the next morning I got up and I went to talk to the Peace Corps leader and I said, I cannot do that. It's the, I tell people the Peace Corps was my most formative experience in who I became later in life besides my family. And that's the first time I ever had to take charge and demand something because I knew I couldn't do it.

[Assistant] Really asserted yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Liberian girl and, you know, for living with us and feeding her and her school fees and everything. She did our laundry. I don't know. By hand. Downstairs in the, there was an empty lot next to the stairs.

[Assistant] And then, um, tell me what job you actually did in Harper.

[User] Okay. They first took me to the Catholic high school and they wanted me to teach algebra. And I have a mental block from small kid time about math. And I kept saying, no, I can't teach algebra. Oh, no. You just stay one page ahead of the kids. And that's how it was left. And I went home and I cried. And the next morning I got up and I went to talk to the Peace Corps leader and I said, I cannot do that. It's the, I tell people the Peace Corps was my most formative experience in who I became later in life besides my family. And that's the first time I ever had to take charge and demand something because I knew I couldn't do it.

[Assistant] Really asserted yourself.

[User] I did, the first time. And made me probably, you know, I, for 30 years I've traveled all through Europe and on my own. And I never could have done that before Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Huh. That was a good learning experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, the first time. And made me probably, you know, I, for 30 years I've traveled all through Europe and on my own. And I never could have done that before Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Huh. That was a good learning experience.

[User] It was. It was. So I was in a small school. The Peace Corps leader said, oh, well, I know of this small school in the marketplace. So it was right near where I was living, in a church, small wooden church, one room, and in each corner was a different grade. And I had fourth grade and there were like three benches in a round, a chalkboard on a stand. Few textbooks. And I would just sit on the benches with the kids and we would have our lesson.

[Assistant] Subjects taught?

[User] Liberian history. I remember the textbook. The Americo- Liberians founded the country and the rest of the people there were barbarians. Which is the kids that I'm sitting there teaching. But there were American, Americo-Liberians in the town because of President Tubman growing up there. And they had a, their own social status and, um. Yeah, math, you know, that kind of.

[Assistant] So define Americo-Liberians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was. So I was in a small school. The Peace Corps leader said, oh, well, I know of this small school in the marketplace. So it was right near where I was living, in a church, small wooden church, one room, and in each corner was a different grade. And I had fourth grade and there were like three benches in a round, a chalkboard on a stand. Few textbooks. And I would just sit on the benches with the kids and we would have our lesson.

[Assistant] Subjects taught?

[User] Liberian history. I remember the textbook. The Americo- Liberians founded the country and the rest of the people there were barbarians. Which is the kids that I'm sitting there teaching. But there were American, Americo-Liberians in the town because of President Tubman growing up there. And they had a, their own social status and, um. Yeah, math, you know, that kind of.

[Assistant] So define Americo-Liberians?

[User] Oh, they, when the country was founded, was founded by, I think, ministers in Philadelphia or someplace like Boston, I don't know, to send, uh. Before the Civil War, they thought one way to solve the problem was to send Blacks back to where they came from. Of course, Liberia wasn't in existence there, but that's where they landed. And the Americo- Liberians set up the government and they used American money. And the whole structure of the government was based on American. And they really thought that they were, uh, way better than these barbarians of the country.

[Assistant] So they were really Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Liberian history. I remember the textbook. The Americo- Liberians founded the country and the rest of the people there were barbarians. Which is the kids that I'm sitting there teaching. But there were American, Americo-Liberians in the town because of President Tubman growing up there. And they had a, their own social status and, um. Yeah, math, you know, that kind of.

[Assistant] So define Americo-Liberians?

[User] Oh, they, when the country was founded, was founded by, I think, ministers in Philadelphia or someplace like Boston, I don't know, to send, uh. Before the Civil War, they thought one way to solve the problem was to send Blacks back to where they came from. Of course, Liberia wasn't in existence there, but that's where they landed. And the Americo- Liberians set up the government and they used American money. And the whole structure of the government was based on American. And they really thought that they were, uh, way better than these barbarians of the country.

[Assistant] So they were really Americans?

[User] They were. Well, they had been, yeah, they didn't speak any local dialect or anything. They had been in America.

[Assistant] You're referring to the Blacks that came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they, when the country was founded, was founded by, I think, ministers in Philadelphia or someplace like Boston, I don't know, to send, uh. Before the Civil War, they thought one way to solve the problem was to send Blacks back to where they came from. Of course, Liberia wasn't in existence there, but that's where they landed. And the Americo- Liberians set up the government and they used American money. And the whole structure of the government was based on American. And they really thought that they were, uh, way better than these barbarians of the country.

[Assistant] So they were really Americans?

[User] They were. Well, they had been, yeah, they didn't speak any local dialect or anything. They had been in America.

[Assistant] You're referring to the Blacks that came?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. That's, I wasn't sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were. Well, they had been, yeah, they didn't speak any local dialect or anything. They had been in America.

[Assistant] You're referring to the Blacks that came?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. That's, I wasn't sure.

[User] They were former slaves.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So they had a big influence then when they came back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] Isn't that the basis of Sierra Leone? Weren't there, um?

[Assistant] Yeah. Similar.

[User] They were sent by the English government. And that's the country next door to each other.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's where I served. And the, uh, the people were brought back to Freetown. And but so, the school, regular school day. Walk us through a.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isn't that the basis of Sierra Leone? Weren't there, um?

[Assistant] Yeah. Similar.

[User] They were sent by the English government. And that's the country next door to each other.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's where I served. And the, uh, the people were brought back to Freetown. And but so, the school, regular school day. Walk us through a.

[User] I think it only went to like 8:00 to 12:00. I guess we started with pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't remember. We, you know, there was no bell ringing. The kids didn't change classes. There was no place to go out like for a recess or anything. No one ever asked what I was doing. The man who was the principal of the school was a retired general from the Army. He was a, I think, half Americo-Liberian. He thought he was a lot better than everybody else, but he never came to see what you were doing. There was no supervision of us.

[Assistant] Tell me the other subjects you taught.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were sent by the English government. And that's the country next door to each other.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's where I served. And the, uh, the people were brought back to Freetown. And but so, the school, regular school day. Walk us through a.

[User] I think it only went to like 8:00 to 12:00. I guess we started with pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't remember. We, you know, there was no bell ringing. The kids didn't change classes. There was no place to go out like for a recess or anything. No one ever asked what I was doing. The man who was the principal of the school was a retired general from the Army. He was a, I think, half Americo-Liberian. He thought he was a lot better than everybody else, but he never came to see what you were doing. There was no supervision of us.

[Assistant] Tell me the other subjects you taught.

[User] I remember the social studies. I remember the English, and I must have done math. I don't know how much science I could have done, but I would guess that's it. There was no music or any enrichment type activities.

[Assistant] Did the students work at home afterwards? I mean, were they involved in family activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it only went to like 8:00 to 12:00. I guess we started with pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't remember. We, you know, there was no bell ringing. The kids didn't change classes. There was no place to go out like for a recess or anything. No one ever asked what I was doing. The man who was the principal of the school was a retired general from the Army. He was a, I think, half Americo-Liberian. He thought he was a lot better than everybody else, but he never came to see what you were doing. There was no supervision of us.

[Assistant] Tell me the other subjects you taught.

[User] I remember the social studies. I remember the English, and I must have done math. I don't know how much science I could have done, but I would guess that's it. There was no music or any enrichment type activities.

[Assistant] Did the students work at home afterwards? I mean, were they involved in family activities?

[User] I think so. I know that some of the girls worked with their mother across the street in the marketplace. Um. I don't remember what boys were doing in particular.

[Assistant] Speaking of the marketplace, did you shop there often?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the social studies. I remember the English, and I must have done math. I don't know how much science I could have done, but I would guess that's it. There was no music or any enrichment type activities.

[Assistant] Did the students work at home afterwards? I mean, were they involved in family activities?

[User] I think so. I know that some of the girls worked with their mother across the street in the marketplace. Um. I don't remember what boys were doing in particular.

[Assistant] Speaking of the marketplace, did you shop there often?

[User] Um, the girl who did our cooking and lived with us would shop there. I mean, I could go and walk around and stuff, but very strong smells from the marketplace.

[Assistant] Did you have an opportunity to travel at all in the country?