[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, that means that they're, that they're mixed race. Um, chances are the mother or father was white and the, and the, the other mother. The father was white or the mother was white and vice versa and into intermingled with the Africans. So you had the coloureds which looked very much like me. They weren't really black, they weren't white, but they were, they were a brown skinned type of person, just like I am. And they were like, like the African, the pure Africans from, from what they were telling me and the way they reacted to them were like, they were. They were class wise, the coloureds were like a cut above the real Africans and just below the Europeans. So the coloureds were like caught between the Africans and the Europeans and like caught between a rock and a hard place.

[Assistant] The coloureds could also be a mixture between African and Asian?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Anybody mixing?

[User] Yeah. Coloureds were the mixed race people, but they're normally mixed race with a lighter, lighter colored, lighter skinned people. That's why they were brown.

[Assistant] Okay. The physical environment that you were in, what, um, what was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Anybody mixing?

[User] Yeah. Coloureds were the mixed race people, but they're normally mixed race with a lighter, lighter colored, lighter skinned people. That's why they were brown.

[Assistant] Okay. The physical environment that you were in, what, um, what was that like?

[User] Physical? You mean the natural or the buildings or what?

[Assistant] Well, all of your environment where you lived.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Coloureds were the mixed race people, but they're normally mixed race with a lighter, lighter colored, lighter skinned people. That's why they were brown.

[Assistant] Okay. The physical environment that you were in, what, um, what was that like?

[User] Physical? You mean the natural or the buildings or what?

[Assistant] Well, all of your environment where you lived.

[User]
I lived in a wonderful house. You know, we had, we had bathrooms, we had mosquito nets, we had fireplaces, we had gas stoves. We had everything except the telephone and a, and a TV. We had the cooks and we had the gardens and all of that. And in fact, my physical situation, the manmade physical situation in Malawi, was probably better than the physical situation I had back at home before I left. Um, the natural physical situation consisted of green trees, green grass. You know, the rainy season, the dry season, the Chiperoni season, which was this season that was kind of cool and kind of kind of wet. To me, it was just perfect.

I enjoyed the, the natural environment and I enjoyed the physical environment, I mean, the, the environment in the household. I think I felt kind of guilty because I wasn't used to having a cook and a gardener and that type of thing. Someone to make my bed, someone to set up the mosquito net, someone to ask me what I wanted for breakfast. That was just not my cup of tea. It took me a long time to get used to that.

[Assistant] Did your, um, did your assignments change your living conditions? Anything change over your two years? You were there just two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Physical? You mean the natural or the buildings or what?

[Assistant] Well, all of your environment where you lived.

[User]
I lived in a wonderful house. You know, we had, we had bathrooms, we had mosquito nets, we had fireplaces, we had gas stoves. We had everything except the telephone and a, and a TV. We had the cooks and we had the gardens and all of that. And in fact, my physical situation, the manmade physical situation in Malawi, was probably better than the physical situation I had back at home before I left. Um, the natural physical situation consisted of green trees, green grass. You know, the rainy season, the dry season, the Chiperoni season, which was this season that was kind of cool and kind of kind of wet. To me, it was just perfect.

I enjoyed the, the natural environment and I enjoyed the physical environment, I mean, the, the environment in the household. I think I felt kind of guilty because I wasn't used to having a cook and a gardener and that type of thing. Someone to make my bed, someone to set up the mosquito net, someone to ask me what I wanted for breakfast. That was just not my cup of tea. It took me a long time to get used to that.

[Assistant] Did your, um, did your assignments change your living conditions? Anything change over your two years? You were there just two years?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Did it change at all during the two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I lived in a wonderful house. You know, we had, we had bathrooms, we had mosquito nets, we had fireplaces, we had gas stoves. We had everything except the telephone and a, and a TV. We had the cooks and we had the gardens and all of that. And in fact, my physical situation, the manmade physical situation in Malawi, was probably better than the physical situation I had back at home before I left. Um, the natural physical situation consisted of green trees, green grass. You know, the rainy season, the dry season, the Chiperoni season, which was this season that was kind of cool and kind of kind of wet. To me, it was just perfect.

I enjoyed the, the natural environment and I enjoyed the physical environment, I mean, the, the environment in the household. I think I felt kind of guilty because I wasn't used to having a cook and a gardener and that type of thing. Someone to make my bed, someone to set up the mosquito net, someone to ask me what I wanted for breakfast. That was just not my cup of tea. It took me a long time to get used to that.

[Assistant] Did your, um, did your assignments change your living conditions? Anything change over your two years? You were there just two years?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Did it change at all during the two years?

[User]
Yeah.

I moved from one house to a bigger house, but basically I still had all the amenities that most volunteers didn't have.

[Assistant] Were you alone in these houses?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Did it change at all during the two years?

[User]
Yeah.

I moved from one house to a bigger house, but basically I still had all the amenities that most volunteers didn't have.

[Assistant] Were you alone in these houses?

[User] No, no. At first I lived with two other people. An older guy who was about 75 years old.

[Assistant] He was a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah.

I moved from one house to a bigger house, but basically I still had all the amenities that most volunteers didn't have.

[Assistant] Were you alone in these houses?

[User] No, no. At first I lived with two other people. An older guy who was about 75 years old.

[Assistant] He was a volunteer?

[User] Yeah, his name was Mac. And then another guy by the name Terry Seno, who was around my age I guess, maybe a little bit older. We lived there for about a year. Then we moved to Soche. We called it Harmony House, it was an old governor's house, huge house. And there we had, there was like 6 or 7 of us living in that house and another house close by. So it was like a communal type situation. And we all ate together. We had parties. And it was, it was a very, I thought, a very, very nice environment. You know, they had that little differences, but nothing significant. That's my last year, I spent living in what we called Harmony House because we used to get in a few arguments, but nothing serious. But it was, it was a nice environment.

[Assistant] When you weren't teaching, were you involved in any projects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very, very fortunate. I did not have any health problems whatsoever. I can't think of one time that I was sick. I really, I never had a stomach ache or headache or anything. I was very, very fortunate.

[Assistant] Did you travel to any other parts of the country?

[User] I went to, I went to some of the Portuguese territories.

[Assistant] But outside?

[User] Outside?

[Assistant] Inside Malawi. Did you do any traveling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Outside?

[Assistant] Inside Malawi. Did you do any traveling?

[User] I went down to the southern part to the cape and that cape down with Carl, Carl White was.

[Assistant] Port Harold?

[User] Port Harold. Went up to Mlanje [now called Mulanje] where Linda Millette was. I went to Cape Maclear, which is up on Lake Malawi, on Lake Nyasa, for any number of occasions, just to relax on the, on the, on the lake. And I went out to some of the villages up in the rainforest. I did traveling when I had the opportunity to, to do so. Um, went out to the tea estates, the tea plantations. I went out to the Chari River and went across a rickety crane seat one time. Um, so yeah, I did quite a bit of traveling inside of Malawi.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have any experiences where you would say that you observed discrimination?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went down to the southern part to the cape and that cape down with Carl, Carl White was.

[Assistant] Port Harold?

[User] Port Harold. Went up to Mlanje [now called Mulanje] where Linda Millette was. I went to Cape Maclear, which is up on Lake Malawi, on Lake Nyasa, for any number of occasions, just to relax on the, on the, on the lake. And I went out to some of the villages up in the rainforest. I did traveling when I had the opportunity to, to do so. Um, went out to the tea estates, the tea plantations. I went out to the Chari River and went across a rickety crane seat one time. Um, so yeah, I did quite a bit of traveling inside of Malawi.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have any experiences where you would say that you observed discrimination?

[User] Um. I think, um. I don't think I really saw any overt type of discrimination, but I could feel a certain type of institutional discrimination, say, from the, uh, from the Blacks towards the coloureds and from the coloureds towards the Blacks, and from the Europeans towards the Africans. I got the impression by talking and being around some of the Europeans, they felt themselves to be very superior. Um, and they also like wanted myself not to think too much out of the Black Africans because, because they probably didn't have much, much to offer. None would ever told me that. But it's a type of institutional type of racism that we oftentimes have in this country here, that I could sense that. And, you know, and I'm not saying that was a fact, but I felt that way. I did not outright observe any type of racism.

[Assistant] And you're feeling that way, did it hinder anything that you might have done or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Port Harold. Went up to Mlanje [now called Mulanje] where Linda Millette was. I went to Cape Maclear, which is up on Lake Malawi, on Lake Nyasa, for any number of occasions, just to relax on the, on the, on the lake. And I went out to some of the villages up in the rainforest. I did traveling when I had the opportunity to, to do so. Um, went out to the tea estates, the tea plantations. I went out to the Chari River and went across a rickety crane seat one time. Um, so yeah, I did quite a bit of traveling inside of Malawi.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have any experiences where you would say that you observed discrimination?

[User] Um. I think, um. I don't think I really saw any overt type of discrimination, but I could feel a certain type of institutional discrimination, say, from the, uh, from the Blacks towards the coloureds and from the coloureds towards the Blacks, and from the Europeans towards the Africans. I got the impression by talking and being around some of the Europeans, they felt themselves to be very superior. Um, and they also like wanted myself not to think too much out of the Black Africans because, because they probably didn't have much, much to offer. None would ever told me that. But it's a type of institutional type of racism that we oftentimes have in this country here, that I could sense that. And, you know, and I'm not saying that was a fact, but I felt that way. I did not outright observe any type of racism.

[Assistant] And you're feeling that way, did it hinder anything that you might have done or?

[User] No, no, no. It, it did not hinder anything that I wanted to do because I felt if I want to be a good Peace Corps volunteer and provide the services I was sent there to provide, that I couldn't let something like that into my mindset. That couldn't be a factor.

[Assistant] Um, during the time you were there, I think Nyasaland changed to Malawi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. I think, um. I don't think I really saw any overt type of discrimination, but I could feel a certain type of institutional discrimination, say, from the, uh, from the Blacks towards the coloureds and from the coloureds towards the Blacks, and from the Europeans towards the Africans. I got the impression by talking and being around some of the Europeans, they felt themselves to be very superior. Um, and they also like wanted myself not to think too much out of the Black Africans because, because they probably didn't have much, much to offer. None would ever told me that. But it's a type of institutional type of racism that we oftentimes have in this country here, that I could sense that. And, you know, and I'm not saying that was a fact, but I felt that way. I did not outright observe any type of racism.

[Assistant] And you're feeling that way, did it hinder anything that you might have done or?

[User] No, no, no. It, it did not hinder anything that I wanted to do because I felt if I want to be a good Peace Corps volunteer and provide the services I was sent there to provide, that I couldn't let something like that into my mindset. That couldn't be a factor.

[Assistant] Um, during the time you were there, I think Nyasaland changed to Malawi.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] They had independence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. It, it did not hinder anything that I wanted to do because I felt if I want to be a good Peace Corps volunteer and provide the services I was sent there to provide, that I couldn't let something like that into my mindset. That couldn't be a factor.

[Assistant] Um, during the time you were there, I think Nyasaland changed to Malawi.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] They had independence.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories around any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories around any of that?

[User] I remember being at the stadium and listened to Kawazu talking along with his little, little thing you switched back with?

[Assistant] [inaudible].

[User] [inaudible] Yeah. And how happy, you know, my students were and what have you. And but I also remember right after the independence, I had some really bright students. I believe there were four of them who just disappeared afterwards. And I think primarily because these were very, very bright students and they're very independent thinkers and they would oftentimes say things contrary to the I think it was the Malawi Congress Party. And they disappeared. I never heard or saw them again, saw them again. And would, I would ask other students about them. The other students would never say anything as if they were afraid to say anything. So when you asked me about independence in Malawi, that's what I remember the most. Those four bright students disappeared and I never saw them again.

[Assistant] When you came to the end of your tour, first of all, do you have, do you remember any funny stories or anything that stands out in your mind with your time in Malawi? Anything else you want to add before we leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember being at the stadium and listened to Kawazu talking along with his little, little thing you switched back with?

[Assistant] [inaudible].

[User] [inaudible] Yeah. And how happy, you know, my students were and what have you. And but I also remember right after the independence, I had some really bright students. I believe there were four of them who just disappeared afterwards. And I think primarily because these were very, very bright students and they're very independent thinkers and they would oftentimes say things contrary to the I think it was the Malawi Congress Party. And they disappeared. I never heard or saw them again, saw them again. And would, I would ask other students about them. The other students would never say anything as if they were afraid to say anything. So when you asked me about independence in Malawi, that's what I remember the most. Those four bright students disappeared and I never saw them again.

[Assistant] When you came to the end of your tour, first of all, do you have, do you remember any funny stories or anything that stands out in your mind with your time in Malawi? Anything else you want to add before we leave?

[User] Well, other than the Africans telling me that I've been away from home for so long that I forgot my, my language, um, you know, I mean, I had, I had a good time. I mean, I can't. I had so many types of fun situations until I can't just pick out one to say this is what's really defined the situation. I mean, I remember a time when a couple of the female volunteers brought their motorbikes out to Harmony House where we all lived, and they didn't quite know how to ride them and they got on the bikes, was going to show us, I guess, what they could do. And the bike took off and left them sitting on the ground. Those types of things.

[Assistant] So volunteers had motorbikes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [inaudible] Yeah. And how happy, you know, my students were and what have you. And but I also remember right after the independence, I had some really bright students. I believe there were four of them who just disappeared afterwards. And I think primarily because these were very, very bright students and they're very independent thinkers and they would oftentimes say things contrary to the I think it was the Malawi Congress Party. And they disappeared. I never heard or saw them again, saw them again. And would, I would ask other students about them. The other students would never say anything as if they were afraid to say anything. So when you asked me about independence in Malawi, that's what I remember the most. Those four bright students disappeared and I never saw them again.

[Assistant] When you came to the end of your tour, first of all, do you have, do you remember any funny stories or anything that stands out in your mind with your time in Malawi? Anything else you want to add before we leave?

[User] Well, other than the Africans telling me that I've been away from home for so long that I forgot my, my language, um, you know, I mean, I had, I had a good time. I mean, I can't. I had so many types of fun situations until I can't just pick out one to say this is what's really defined the situation. I mean, I remember a time when a couple of the female volunteers brought their motorbikes out to Harmony House where we all lived, and they didn't quite know how to ride them and they got on the bikes, was going to show us, I guess, what they could do. And the bike took off and left them sitting on the ground. Those types of things.

[Assistant] So volunteers had motorbikes?

[User] Well, some of the volunteers who lived, say, way out in the rainforest and in very desolate areas and.

[Assistant] In the bush?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, other than the Africans telling me that I've been away from home for so long that I forgot my, my language, um, you know, I mean, I had, I had a good time. I mean, I can't. I had so many types of fun situations until I can't just pick out one to say this is what's really defined the situation. I mean, I remember a time when a couple of the female volunteers brought their motorbikes out to Harmony House where we all lived, and they didn't quite know how to ride them and they got on the bikes, was going to show us, I guess, what they could do. And the bike took off and left them sitting on the ground. Those types of things.

[Assistant] So volunteers had motorbikes?

[User] Well, some of the volunteers who lived, say, way out in the rainforest and in very desolate areas and.

[Assistant] In the bush?

[User] In the bush, that's what, you can call it that. They had to have those bikes in order to get back and forth, to buy food and that type of thing.

[Assistant] Did you have a car or a vehicle of any kind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, some of the volunteers who lived, say, way out in the rainforest and in very desolate areas and.

[Assistant] In the bush?

[User] In the bush, that's what, you can call it that. They had to have those bikes in order to get back and forth, to buy food and that type of thing.

[Assistant] Did you have a car or a vehicle of any kind?

[User] No, but whenever we needed a car or I needed a car, I could always rent one. Or I had, I had a Portuguese buddy who would loan me his car. So transportation was very seldom a problem for me.

[Assistant] Tell me about some of the relationships you formed while you were there, with the people of Malawi. You've mentioned the Portuguese.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but whenever we needed a car or I needed a car, I could always rent one. Or I had, I had a Portuguese buddy who would loan me his car. So transportation was very seldom a problem for me.

[Assistant] Tell me about some of the relationships you formed while you were there, with the people of Malawi. You've mentioned the Portuguese.

[User]
I think the closest, the closest relationship that I formed with had to do with the African coloureds and the Portuguese people. I met a Portuguese family and his name was Jim, and we started to like each other right away. Jim had a car, so Jim used to come to visit me a lot and I'd go to visit him. He would loan me his car. We'd go out socially. I'd go to his house and he'd come over to Harmony House sometime. Um, I met some African coloureds, I mean, who seemed to have a lot, I seemed to have a lot in common with. And we would go out socially. They would come, come to, come to our house. I would go to visit them and their and their families.

I met some Africans. I intermingled with a lot of the Africans. Also, I would go out to some of the villages and look at and meet their, their, their families. Um, I would say that, that, that my, my social life in Malawi in terms of intermingling with the indigenous people was very good. I, I never once got homesick. I always felt, when I was there, I always felt at home.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] Not like at home here, but I felt that I was around people who cared about me and they certainly knew I cared about them.

[Assistant] When you, uh, after you left Malawi, did you have any regrets or did that feelings of dissatisfaction or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. When I left, I was eventually drafted into the Army not too long after I left, about seven or eight months after I left. And I went to Frankfurt, Germany. And I had known that some of my senior students would get scholarships to Pitman's College in London. And sure enough, when I got to Frankfurt, because I did keep in touch with these students, I discovered that they, too, had been, they had gone to England and they were in in London attending school at Pitman's College, and as well as a couple of the African instructors. So we used to see each other on a pretty regular basis while I was in Germany for about a year there. So I kept in very, very close contact with them during that period. Once I left the Army, you know, the contact became almost, almost nil, you know.

[Assistant] Um. Did you have, did you make plans for leaving the country and making your reentry into this country?

[User] Oh, I worked very hard at that one. So very bad to go to graduate school. So before I even left the country, I knew I had been accepted at Columbia University Teachers College. So in fact, when I came back, before I even went home, I went to New York and had interviews at Columbia to, to make sure that my confirmation of entry into that university was, was okay. So, yeah, when I got back to the States, I knew exactly what I was going to do. It was all set.

[Assistant] Did you travel to get back to the United States or did you just go right home?

[User] No, we traveled. I went to Greece. I went to, I went to Athens. I went to, where?

[Assistant] How long did you take when you were traveling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we traveled. I went to Greece. I went to, I went to Athens. I went to, where?

[Assistant] How long did you take when you were traveling?

[User] We took about two weeks to get back. Two and a half, three weeks to get back. I didn't do extensive traveling, but we went to, David Thurston and Mack and I went to several different places.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you find reentry into back into this culture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We took about two weeks to get back. Two and a half, three weeks to get back. I didn't do extensive traveling, but we went to, David Thurston and Mack and I went to several different places.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you find reentry into back into this culture?

[User]
Oh, I found it very strange because I thought people would be very interested in knowing and learning about all the things that I did and what have you. And what I discovered was, you know, they could, they couldn't care less. They didn't care about anything, including, including to a certain extent my own immediate family. You know, they were really preoccupied with their own lives and they couldn't really relate to a lot of the things that I was trying to explain to them and tell them about. It was, it was just too much. They could, they couldn't relate that to, to any of their own life experiences.

So, so my reentry was more of a culture shock than going to Malawi. The biggest culture shock I had was coming back to the United States, getting on a subway train in New York City, and trying to get up to Columbia University. That was culture shock because I just thought people were so rude, you know, they wouldn't even let me off the train. And, you know, I was probably wrong and blaming them and everything. But, but to me, in Malawi people were so kind and so friendly. And all of a sudden I'm among these people who just didn't seem to care about anything except for themselves and what they wanted. And that was a real culture shock because I was away from that for two years. Plus, I'd never been in New York City anyway. So yeah, and that was a huge culture shock and it took me a while to get over that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Evaluate your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps, your service and your life afterward. Um. The three goals were to provide technical assistance to the people of Malawi. And I think you felt you did, did that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you find reentry into back into this culture?

[User]
Oh, I found it very strange because I thought people would be very interested in knowing and learning about all the things that I did and what have you. And what I discovered was, you know, they could, they couldn't care less. They didn't care about anything, including, including to a certain extent my own immediate family. You know, they were really preoccupied with their own lives and they couldn't really relate to a lot of the things that I was trying to explain to them and tell them about. It was, it was just too much. They could, they couldn't relate that to, to any of their own life experiences.

So, so my reentry was more of a culture shock than going to Malawi. The biggest culture shock I had was coming back to the United States, getting on a subway train in New York City, and trying to get up to Columbia University. That was culture shock because I just thought people were so rude, you know, they wouldn't even let me off the train. And, you know, I was probably wrong and blaming them and everything. But, but to me, in Malawi people were so kind and so friendly. And all of a sudden I'm among these people who just didn't seem to care about anything except for themselves and what they wanted. And that was a real culture shock because I was away from that for two years. Plus, I'd never been in New York City anyway. So yeah, and that was a huge culture shock and it took me a while to get over that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Evaluate your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps, your service and your life afterward. Um. The three goals were to provide technical assistance to the people of Malawi. And I think you felt you did, did that?

[User] Yeah, I believe I provided the business technical assistance as well as helping the handicapped people to get some jobs and careers that otherwise wouldn't, wouldn't have.

[Assistant] The second goal was to promote a better understanding back here of Americans of, of that, of Malawi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I believe I provided the business technical assistance as well as helping the handicapped people to get some jobs and careers that otherwise wouldn't, wouldn't have.

[Assistant] The second goal was to promote a better understanding back here of Americans of, of that, of Malawi.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you feel that, did you, did you have opportunities to do that? I've heard you, you know, people, which was my own experience, weren't really that interested.

[User] Yeah. One of my greatest challenges throughout the whole time I was there was trying to explain the American Black situation in America versus the American white situation in America. The Africans never distinguished between white Americans and Black Americans. They couldn't understand, you know, they thought we all were rich and all we had to do was. [tape break]

[Assistant] You were explaining that you, the Africans, couldn't keep straight. You were explaining to the Africans about, and the coloureds about the differences between American white and Black. They all thought we were all wealthy and whatnot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you feel that, did you, did you have opportunities to do that? I've heard you, you know, people, which was my own experience, weren't really that interested.

[User] Yeah. One of my greatest challenges throughout the whole time I was there was trying to explain the American Black situation in America versus the American white situation in America. The Africans never distinguished between white Americans and Black Americans. They couldn't understand, you know, they thought we all were rich and all we had to do was. [tape break]

[Assistant] You were explaining that you, the Africans, couldn't keep straight. You were explaining to the Africans about, and the coloureds about the differences between American white and Black. They all thought we were all wealthy and whatnot.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And, and then what about when you came home? Were you able to help educate Americans about Malawians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. Once, once I left, the only involvement, it's been, it's been peripheral. And that we have some, we have a Peace Corps, a lot of Peace Corps volunteers at the U.S. Department of Education where I work. And we get together from time to time just to reminisce and to be recognized by the Secretary of Education. But I sort of left, when I left Africa, left Malawi, that was a chapter in my life I left behind. I learned a lot from it. I became a much better person. But I knew I wanted to go ahead and do other things. And if I dwelled upon some of the experiences I had there, it would probably interfere with the new things that I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Did you, did you ever hear of the Friends of Malawi? Were you ever?

[User] Sure, I mean, my, my wife is a very prominent, was a very prominent member of the Friends of Malawi. So I learned about what was going on in Malawi. In fact, I still do, despite the fact I've not been involved in a very close manner. And I'm still concerned about Malawi. And I read about them in the newspaper. Never a friend of mine. In fact, I have a friend who just left there. When I learned they were going there, I like to talk to them and, you know, tell them things, some of the things that they might expect based upon what I'm hearing these days and based upon the experiences I had years ago. So. So you might say I'm out of touch, but yet I'm still in touch, but not as closely as I had been before.

[Assistant] What about regular, just Peace Corps involvement?

[User] No, I don't really get that much involved in the Peace Corps and what they're doing, except what I read in the newspaper and what I, what I hear over TV or radio.

[Assistant] Okay. Describe now your life since you left Peace Corps, since you left Malawi? In summary, highlighting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. But it has been a bit of a roller coaster, but I've learned a lot about myself and learned a lot about people that otherwise probably wouldn't have learned if it had not been for the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Lawrence.

[User] No charge.

[Assistant] For your interview, for doing this. Do you have any other thoughts before we close off?

[User] I would just recommend any, any young person fresh out of college and who don't quite know what to do with themselves to at least take a look at what the Peace Corps offers and what you can give to the Peace Corps, because I think the travel and getting out and seeing other places and other people really, really helps to create a better human being within your, within yourself. I think travel is just, just wonderful and meeting people who are different than yourself, especially a different culture, who sees life differently, is one of the best things that anybody can do for themselves. Especially if you're an American, because you can so easily grow up in this country and never have to experience any of that. And I think you've missed something if you don't experience that.

[Assistant] Thank you, honey.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good morning Fynnette

[Assistant] By way of introduction could you please give us your name and your terms of service to the National Archives.

[User] Meyer Fishbein. From December 1940 to December 1980 with a break of 3 years, in the Army and about 9 months or so working on Bank records in New York.

[Assistant] Fascinating. I am going to have to ask about the bank records in a little while, but, so you served 40 years at the National Archives.

[User] Almost to the date.

[Assistant] What is your educational background and how did it prepare you or not for a career in the Federal Government?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Meyer Fishbein. From December 1940 to December 1980 with a break of 3 years, in the Army and about 9 months or so working on Bank records in New York.

[Assistant] Fascinating. I am going to have to ask about the bank records in a little while, but, so you served 40 years at the National Archives.

[User] Almost to the date.

[Assistant] What is your educational background and how did it prepare you or not for a career in the Federal Government?

[User] That is one of the oddities. I was educationally unqualified for practically every position I had. It's a whole set of circumstances. I came to the Archives I had about39 hours in night school. It was interrupted when I got a job in the laundry. I started working 70 hours a week literally six days so I could not go to Night School, so I was considered unqualified practically anything, and that continued even beyond the M.A.

[Assistant] That is interesting, but yet it did not stop you from moving up and doing all the variety of things you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Almost to the date.

[Assistant] What is your educational background and how did it prepare you or not for a career in the Federal Government?

[User] That is one of the oddities. I was educationally unqualified for practically every position I had. It's a whole set of circumstances. I came to the Archives I had about39 hours in night school. It was interrupted when I got a job in the laundry. I started working 70 hours a week literally six days so I could not go to Night School, so I was considered unqualified practically anything, and that continued even beyond the M.A.

[Assistant] That is interesting, but yet it did not stop you from moving up and doing all the variety of things you did.

[User] That is one of the oddities. Even though they kept telling me I was educationally unqualified, I kept saying I deserve a promotion and I meant it.

[Assistant] And they agreed, yeah?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is one of the oddities. Even though they kept telling me I was educationally unqualified, I kept saying I deserve a promotion and I meant it.

[Assistant] And they agreed, yeah?

[User] And they agreed, yuh. Not easily, not easily. That's why Walt Robertson said my career would never be repeated.

[Assistant] Interesting

[User] And if you know Walt Robertson

[Assistant] I do,' I do. Well let me get into more of your work at the National Archives. One of the cornerstones of the Electronic and Special Media Record Services Division what used to be called the Center for Electronic Records and the Machine Readable Branch are census records. They are the cornerstone. Tell us about your first job as a clerk on the 1940 Census.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they agreed, yuh. Not easily, not easily. That's why Walt Robertson said my career would never be repeated.

[Assistant] Interesting

[User] And if you know Walt Robertson

[Assistant] I do,' I do. Well let me get into more of your work at the National Archives. One of the cornerstones of the Electronic and Special Media Record Services Division what used to be called the Center for Electronic Records and the Machine Readable Branch are census records. They are the cornerstone. Tell us about your first job as a clerk on the 1940 Census.

[User] Well, that's what I did. I was coding the Population Schedules and I was probably pretty near the end of my employment there. They kept reducing the staff and I suspect if I hadn't gotten the job in the Archives I probably would have been discharged.

[Assistant] How long did you do work for the Census Bureau?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And if you know Walt Robertson

[Assistant] I do,' I do. Well let me get into more of your work at the National Archives. One of the cornerstones of the Electronic and Special Media Record Services Division what used to be called the Center for Electronic Records and the Machine Readable Branch are census records. They are the cornerstone. Tell us about your first job as a clerk on the 1940 Census.

[User] Well, that's what I did. I was coding the Population Schedules and I was probably pretty near the end of my employment there. They kept reducing the staff and I suspect if I hadn't gotten the job in the Archives I probably would have been discharged.

[Assistant] How long did you do work for the Census Bureau?

[User] That was July 1, 1940 until I got to the National Archives on December 10, 1940.

[Assistant] Okay, by having worked with the census records, were you entranced by them? Once you came to the National Archives did you ..


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's what I did. I was coding the Population Schedules and I was probably pretty near the end of my employment there. They kept reducing the staff and I suspect if I hadn't gotten the job in the Archives I probably would have been discharged.

[Assistant] How long did you do work for the Census Bureau?

[User] That was July 1, 1940 until I got to the National Archives on December 10, 1940.

[Assistant] Okay, by having worked with the census records, were you entranced by them? Once you came to the National Archives did you ..

[User] No, my interest in census came later.

[Assistant] Interesting. How did that happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was July 1, 1940 until I got to the National Archives on December 10, 1940.

[Assistant] Okay, by having worked with the census records, were you entranced by them? Once you came to the National Archives did you ..

[User] No, my interest in census came later.

[Assistant] Interesting. How did that happen?

[User] Well I found that many of the researchers were interested in quantification. The ones that I dealt with in the early days, so I became interested in for quantified information and that as you can imagine, Fynnette, influenced my career actually.

[Assistant] Yes it did. It is very clearly that it did. So how did you find yourself at the National Archives? How did you find the National Archives job? You were working at Census and it sounded like you needed to find a job because it was going to end.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, my interest in census came later.

[Assistant] Interesting. How did that happen?

[User] Well I found that many of the researchers were interested in quantification. The ones that I dealt with in the early days, so I became interested in for quantified information and that as you can imagine, Fynnette, influenced my career actually.

[Assistant] Yes it did. It is very clearly that it did. So how did you find yourself at the National Archives? How did you find the National Archives job? You were working at Census and it sounded like you needed to find a job because it was going to end.

[User] Well ...

[Assistant] How did you find it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I found that many of the researchers were interested in quantification. The ones that I dealt with in the early days, so I became interested in for quantified information and that as you can imagine, Fynnette, influenced my career actually.

[Assistant] Yes it did. It is very clearly that it did. So how did you find yourself at the National Archives? How did you find the National Archives job? You were working at Census and it sounded like you needed to find a job because it was going to end.

[User] Well ...

[Assistant] How did you find it?

[User] When I was working in the laundry it never occurred to me that there was a chance for federal employment. Two of my _friends got jobs in the Post Office. I went down there to see what types of exams I would qualify for, in other words, jobs without any qualifications. So I took two exams, thought nothing would come of it. One was the apprentice fingerprint classifier and the other was assistant messenger. So the-first one got me the job at the Census Bureau. The second one got me the job at the Archives, but so much happened that first day that was quite startling, my first day at the Archives.

[Assistant] Tell me about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was supposed to be an apprentice archives repairman and the head of Repair and Preservation really did not want me. I had an interview with him, it was very brief. He just said to me, "We don't like New Yorkers here."

[Assistant] Really!

[User] Yes. Well, the interesting part of that he was born in Brooklyn and attended Columbia University, but I knew what he meant by that being a New Yorker, a special kind of New Yorker. So he did not want me. So when I came. At first I was surprised after that interview that they offered me a job at the Archives. I always wondered, they always gave three names. I wondered who the other two were. My suspicion was that other two were black; that's my guess. Anyway, when I got to talk to the Director of Personnel, he mumbled a bit and said, "Oh, you have some college credits." He said, "Will you accept a promotion?" That's what he actually said, "Will you accept a promotion?"

[Assistant] Laughter

[User] I said, "Yeah." So instead of being on the wage scale, about $1200 per annum, I got $1260, but in a completely new class. I was a sub professional, so that I would have been trapped in wage scale work probably if the Director of Repair & Preservation wanted me, but he didn't want me so they pushed me upstairs. So I was promoted the day I showed up.

[Assistant] I can't.I don't know of anyone else who has had that experience, Meyer. That's a unique experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, the interesting part of that he was born in Brooklyn and attended Columbia University, but I knew what he meant by that being a New Yorker, a special kind of New Yorker. So he did not want me. So when I came. At first I was surprised after that interview that they offered me a job at the Archives. I always wondered, they always gave three names. I wondered who the other two were. My suspicion was that other two were black; that's my guess. Anyway, when I got to talk to the Director of Personnel, he mumbled a bit and said, "Oh, you have some college credits." He said, "Will you accept a promotion?" That's what he actually said, "Will you accept a promotion?"

[Assistant] Laughter

[User] I said, "Yeah." So instead of being on the wage scale, about $1200 per annum, I got $1260, but in a completely new class. I was a sub professional, so that I would have been trapped in wage scale work probably if the Director of Repair & Preservation wanted me, but he didn't want me so they pushed me upstairs. So I was promoted the day I showed up.

[Assistant] I can't.I don't know of anyone else who has had that experience, Meyer. That's a unique experience.

[User] That was. That first day was really a remarkable one. In fact, the entire day was remarkable; as soon as I started work it was remarkable.

[Assistant] Let me follow up ..


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I said, "Yeah." So instead of being on the wage scale, about $1200 per annum, I got $1260, but in a completely new class. I was a sub professional, so that I would have been trapped in wage scale work probably if the Director of Repair & Preservation wanted me, but he didn't want me so they pushed me upstairs. So I was promoted the day I showed up.

[Assistant] I can't.I don't know of anyone else who has had that experience, Meyer. That's a unique experience.

[User] That was. That first day was really a remarkable one. In fact, the entire day was remarkable; as soon as I started work it was remarkable.

[Assistant] Let me follow up ..

[User] Certainly. I am sorry.

[Assistant] No. I want to build upon that. Whatwere your impressions of NARA when you started working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was. That first day was really a remarkable one. In fact, the entire day was remarkable; as soon as I started work it was remarkable.

[Assistant] Let me follow up ..

[User] Certainly. I am sorry.

[Assistant] No. I want to build upon that. Whatwere your impressions of NARA when you started working.

[User] I had no idea what the agency was. I asked a friend of mine, when I was asked for the interview. He said, "It's a building on Pennsylvania Avenue." That is all I knew. So when I came there, I had no idea of what the National Archives was.

[Assistant] How long did it take you to understand what the National Archives was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no idea what the agency was. I asked a friend of mine, when I was asked for the interview. He said, "It's a building on Pennsylvania Avenue." That is all I knew. So when I came there, I had no idea of what the National Archives was.

[Assistant] How long did it take you to understand what the National Archives was?

[User] Well not long actually. When I was told what my job was, that was great with me. I was supposed to pack and shelve the records of the NRA, the National Recovery Administration.

[Assistant] Oh

[User] NRA. Gee, great. I know all about NRA. They had that, you probably had not heard of that Fynnette, they had the blue eagle with almost every store front in New York.

[Assistant] But now that you say it, I can see it. I remember seeing a picture of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well not long actually. When I was told what my job was, that was great with me. I was supposed to pack and shelve the records of the NRA, the National Recovery Administration.

[Assistant] Oh

[User] NRA. Gee, great. I know all about NRA. They had that, you probably had not heard of that Fynnette, they had the blue eagle with almost every store front in New York.

[Assistant] But now that you say it, I can see it. I remember seeing a picture of it.

[User] The blue eagle, publicity for the NRA. I didn't know much about it, so I actually learned about NRA by looking at the records. It never occurred to me to go into the legislation.

[Assistant] That times to learn to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NRA. Gee, great. I know all about NRA. They had that, you probably had not heard of that Fynnette, they had the blue eagle with almost every store front in New York.

[Assistant] But now that you say it, I can see it. I remember seeing a picture of it.

[User] The blue eagle, publicity for the NRA. I didn't know much about it, so I actually learned about NRA by looking at the records. It never occurred to me to go into the legislation.

[Assistant] That times to learn to do that.

[User] But there was a special situation. The records were an absolute mess. They were on open shelves. What happened was Harold Ickes ordered the records to be destroyed. The National Archives was established and they put a stop to it, which was very fortunate, because the NRA records were very valuable during the second World War in price controls, because that is what the NRA did, the controlled prices.

[Assistant] So were the NRA records at the National Archives? And they came and° used them during the Second World War?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there was a special situation. The records were an absolute mess. They were on open shelves. What happened was Harold Ickes ordered the records to be destroyed. The National Archives was established and they put a stop to it, which was very fortunate, because the NRA records were very valuable during the second World War in price controls, because that is what the NRA did, the controlled prices.

[Assistant] So were the NRA records at the National Archives? And they came and° used them during the Second World War?

[User] Oh yes, in fact I serviced them in the early part of the war particularly, OPACS, which was a predecessor of OPA that combined what amounted to OPA and War Production Board. Then it was split into two separate agencies. It had an effect, because it changed my career within a week.

[Assistant] How so?

[User]
One week. Well, my job was to pack and shelve the NRA records and Assa Thornton who was Assistant Division Chief was running ;iround, the whole staff was running around and I said, f'Gee, can I be of any help?" He says oh no, but he did tell me what it was. The head of OPACS wanted maps of trading areas of the United States. He knew about them because he had been an official of the NRA and he knew that they had these trading area maps. So I said okay. I went into the stack area and just walked around. I looked at the top shelf; everything was on open selves, loose records, and I saw a cardboard tube. And I said, "Gee, that might be." And there it was. So I gave them to Assa Thorton? He was so delighted. He said I am sure you want to get home for Christmas. Laughter

But it did make an impression on him, even though it was a pure accident. No special knowledge.

[Assistant] But you showed initiative and you were able to find things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, in fact I serviced them in the early part of the war particularly, OPACS, which was a predecessor of OPA that combined what amounted to OPA and War Production Board. Then it was split into two separate agencies. It had an effect, because it changed my career within a week.

[Assistant] How so?

[User]
One week. Well, my job was to pack and shelve the NRA records and Assa Thornton who was Assistant Division Chief was running ;iround, the whole staff was running around and I said, f'Gee, can I be of any help?" He says oh no, but he did tell me what it was. The head of OPACS wanted maps of trading areas of the United States. He knew about them because he had been an official of the NRA and he knew that they had these trading area maps. So I said okay. I went into the stack area and just walked around. I looked at the top shelf; everything was on open selves, loose records, and I saw a cardboard tube. And I said, "Gee, that might be." And there it was. So I gave them to Assa Thorton? He was so delighted. He said I am sure you want to get home for Christmas. Laughter

But it did make an impression on him, even though it was a pure accident. No special knowledge.

[Assistant] But you showed initiative and you were able to find things.

[User] And it saved them from dealing with a very important official in the government. And so, it was pure accident and it made a difference in the way I was treated. From then on ..

[Assistant] Well let's talk. It sounds like you were hired for one thing. And how long did you do the packing up and shelving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it saved them from dealing with a very important official in the government. And so, it was pure accident and it made a difference in the way I was treated. From then on ..

[Assistant] Well let's talk. It sounds like you were hired for one thing. And how long did you do the packing up and shelving?

[User] Well it did continue for quite awhile, but before long I was doing inventories.

[Assistant] Ah ..

[User] Even though I was unqualified to do it by archive standards. If I worked anywhere else in the Archives, I could not have done what I did, but Paul Lewinson was Division Director and he paid no attention to grades. You either could or couldn't do it. But you didn't dare make an error. And I was lucky that somehow or other, I avoided errors.

[Assistant] How long did you stay in that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it did continue for quite awhile, but before long I was doing inventories.

[Assistant] Ah ..

[User] Even though I was unqualified to do it by archive standards. If I worked anywhere else in the Archives, I could not have done what I did, but Paul Lewinson was Division Director and he paid no attention to grades. You either could or couldn't do it. But you didn't dare make an error. And I was lucky that somehow or other, I avoided errors.

[Assistant] How long did you stay in that position?

[User] My title was Minor Archives Assistant

[Assistant] That's a lovely title. That is impressive


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My title was Minor Archives Assistant

[Assistant] That's a lovely title. That is impressive

[User] Isn't that impressive? It was an SP2, sub professional 2, which was equivalent really to a GSl, if that makes any sense.

[Assistant] Sure

[User] After a year in which I was doing all kinds of things already, I said well I think I ought to get a promotion. And Paul Lewinson sort of backed me up on that. Something else happened, also a lucky accident that got me sort of favorable treatment. There was nothing to it, but it seemed impressive to people. What happened is somebody came in and said he had been a watchman for the U.S. Railroad Administration and he wanted to prove his service. He doubted that there was any record of it. And he was leaving, before he left I already found it and sent it forward. He was so impressed he went to the Head of Reference and told him how amazed he was, so he called Lewinson and said I had been so prompt in that. But it sort of again, a pure accident.

[Assistant] But, it's a wonderful story and it builds upon, yes. Because, today when we talk about electronic records, the reason we have to document peoples service, so that they can get the benefits that they are due. You were doing it forty years ago. That's a wonderful example.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isn't that impressive? It was an SP2, sub professional 2, which was equivalent really to a GSl, if that makes any sense.

[Assistant] Sure

[User] After a year in which I was doing all kinds of things already, I said well I think I ought to get a promotion. And Paul Lewinson sort of backed me up on that. Something else happened, also a lucky accident that got me sort of favorable treatment. There was nothing to it, but it seemed impressive to people. What happened is somebody came in and said he had been a watchman for the U.S. Railroad Administration and he wanted to prove his service. He doubted that there was any record of it. And he was leaving, before he left I already found it and sent it forward. He was so impressed he went to the Head of Reference and told him how amazed he was, so he called Lewinson and said I had been so prompt in that. But it sort of again, a pure accident.

[Assistant] But, it's a wonderful story and it builds upon, yes. Because, today when we talk about electronic records, the reason we have to document peoples service, so that they can get the benefits that they are due. You were doing it forty years ago. That's a wonderful example.

[User] Well, so you know those lucky accidents. I referred to myself as the accident prone archivist.

[Assistant] What a lovely title. Well let me take a longer view of things. In your long and distinguished career with NARA you served as the Director of the Business Economics Branch, the Records Appraisal Division and the Military Archives Division. Could you take a moment and discuss each of the roles and positions that you held in these jobs? Because we talk about chance you were able to take advantage of chance, but you have held so many important positions. I would like to hear your thoughts about them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After a year in which I was doing all kinds of things already, I said well I think I ought to get a promotion. And Paul Lewinson sort of backed me up on that. Something else happened, also a lucky accident that got me sort of favorable treatment. There was nothing to it, but it seemed impressive to people. What happened is somebody came in and said he had been a watchman for the U.S. Railroad Administration and he wanted to prove his service. He doubted that there was any record of it. And he was leaving, before he left I already found it and sent it forward. He was so impressed he went to the Head of Reference and told him how amazed he was, so he called Lewinson and said I had been so prompt in that. But it sort of again, a pure accident.

[Assistant] But, it's a wonderful story and it builds upon, yes. Because, today when we talk about electronic records, the reason we have to document peoples service, so that they can get the benefits that they are due. You were doing it forty years ago. That's a wonderful example.

[User] Well, so you know those lucky accidents. I referred to myself as the accident prone archivist.

[Assistant] What a lovely title. Well let me take a longer view of things. In your long and distinguished career with NARA you served as the Director of the Business Economics Branch, the Records Appraisal Division and the Military Archives Division. Could you take a moment and discuss each of the roles and positions that you held in these jobs? Because we talk about chance you were able to take advantage of chance, but you have held so many important positions. I would like to hear your thoughts about them.

[User] The Business Economics, as Chief of that, working with Paul Levinson, although he would check on me once in a while, but he would let me do my own thing.

[Assistant] What was your role in being the Chief there? What did you want to see that section accomplish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Business Economics, as Chief of that, working with Paul Levinson, although he would check on me once in a while, but he would let me do my own thing.

[Assistant] What was your role in being the Chief there? What did you want to see that section accomplish?

[User] I had records of the Commerce Department, which of course included the Census Bureau, so that is the tie in. And the Federal Trade Commission, a number of organizations that dealt with some areas of Commerce, but I had pretty much a free hand. Not only did I have custody of the records, I could do appraisal, but that required all kinds of approvals to accession records. But I was, I could go to the agencies and start accessioning records, reviewing disposal requests so that I had pretty much a free hand. It was a great job. It was nice, little small staff, always a prime for me right from the start; was always have a good secretary. (Laughter) I got that lesson the very first day.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] Because I walked into the Archives and there was this lady Mildred. I have forgotten her second name, who greeted me warmly. You know, here I was nobody. Well she was a real southerner from South Carolina with ties to a Senator Cotton Ed Smith. That was the way she was, but gee how important it is to have someone greet you, the whole impression of an office you get from the secretary. So I learned fir lesson 1 about secretaries the first day I showed up.

[Assistant] Now tell me about the names of the good secretaries that you have had; those that you can remember.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had records of the Commerce Department, which of course included the Census Bureau, so that is the tie in. And the Federal Trade Commission, a number of organizations that dealt with some areas of Commerce, but I had pretty much a free hand. Not only did I have custody of the records, I could do appraisal, but that required all kinds of approvals to accession records. But I was, I could go to the agencies and start accessioning records, reviewing disposal requests so that I had pretty much a free hand. It was a great job. It was nice, little small staff, always a prime for me right from the start; was always have a good secretary. (Laughter) I got that lesson the very first day.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] Because I walked into the Archives and there was this lady Mildred. I have forgotten her second name, who greeted me warmly. You know, here I was nobody. Well she was a real southerner from South Carolina with ties to a Senator Cotton Ed Smith. That was the way she was, but gee how important it is to have someone greet you, the whole impression of an office you get from the secretary. So I learned fir lesson 1 about secretaries the first day I showed up.

[Assistant] Now tell me about the names of the good secretaries that you have had; those that you can remember.

[User] My memory---

[Assistant] Alright. I am going to test your memory in another way. Can you give me the dates of your career moves at the National Archives? You were


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My memory---

[Assistant] Alright. I am going to test your memory in another way. Can you give me the dates of your career moves at the National Archives? You were

[User] No, that would be difficult

[Assistant] Okay

[User] When I, after I was there a year, I sort of looked around, I figured I am doing work well beyond my grade, because they let me do it. As I said no other branch in the Archives would have permitted that.

[Assistant] Was the Archives large?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that would be difficult

[Assistant] Okay

[User] When I, after I was there a year, I sort of looked around, I figured I am doing work well beyond my grade, because they let me do it. As I said no other branch in the Archives would have permitted that.

[Assistant] Was the Archives large?

[User] No

[Assistant] How large was the archives at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I, after I was there a year, I sort of looked around, I figured I am doing work well beyond my grade, because they let me do it. As I said no other branch in the Archives would have permitted that.

[Assistant] Was the Archives large?

[User] No

[Assistant] How large was the archives at that time?

[User] No. At that time each department had a division chief to accession their records. The first one I worked in was called the Division of Labor Department Archives. It has a whole history in the organization of the Archives. Each department had a division within the Archives. But each division was pretty small, just a few people. I was introduced to the people at my division the first day I showed up. There was just a few of us; someone like Phil Bauer. These names probably do not mean anything to you.

[Assistant] But they do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No

[Assistant] How large was the archives at that time?

[User] No. At that time each department had a division chief to accession their records. The first one I worked in was called the Division of Labor Department Archives. It has a whole history in the organization of the Archives. Each department had a division within the Archives. But each division was pretty small, just a few people. I was introduced to the people at my division the first day I showed up. There was just a few of us; someone like Phil Bauer. These names probably do not mean anything to you.

[Assistant] But they do.

[User] Oh yeah, Phil Bauer was a sad situation, but that is another story. And there was Bill Raply, who was supposed to take charge of me, to make sure I did not goof up. That I did things his way, but that didn't work out, in my case with Bill Ra ply, because of the situation with the two commendations just as I started, so I

[Assistant] They let you have free reign because ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. At that time each department had a division chief to accession their records. The first one I worked in was called the Division of Labor Department Archives. It has a whole history in the organization of the Archives. Each department had a division within the Archives. But each division was pretty small, just a few people. I was introduced to the people at my division the first day I showed up. There was just a few of us; someone like Phil Bauer. These names probably do not mean anything to you.

[Assistant] But they do.

[User] Oh yeah, Phil Bauer was a sad situation, but that is another story. And there was Bill Raply, who was supposed to take charge of me, to make sure I did not goof up. That I did things his way, but that didn't work out, in my case with Bill Ra ply, because of the situation with the two commendations just as I started, so I

[Assistant] They let you have free reign because ...

[User] Yes, I was able to work with some independence. And the odd part about this was, before long I was permitted to handle researchers in areas with the records of which I was familiar, particularly NRA. We had a lot of economists coming to look at the NRA records. And it was kind of amusing. They referred to me as Dr. Fishbein, and here I had 39 credits. And I said No! I do not have a doctorate. And they looked disappointed! So I figured if they are happy to call me doctor, let them call me doctor. (Laughter) I found this situation kind of amusing, even then.

[Assistant] What was the first job that you served as a supervisor? Was it with the Business ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, Phil Bauer was a sad situation, but that is another story. And there was Bill Raply, who was supposed to take charge of me, to make sure I did not goof up. That I did things his way, but that didn't work out, in my case with Bill Ra ply, because of the situation with the two commendations just as I started, so I

[Assistant] They let you have free reign because ...

[User] Yes, I was able to work with some independence. And the odd part about this was, before long I was permitted to handle researchers in areas with the records of which I was familiar, particularly NRA. We had a lot of economists coming to look at the NRA records. And it was kind of amusing. They referred to me as Dr. Fishbein, and here I had 39 credits. And I said No! I do not have a doctorate. And they looked disappointed! So I figured if they are happy to call me doctor, let them call me doctor. (Laughter) I found this situation kind of amusing, even then.

[Assistant] What was the first job that you served as a supervisor? Was it with the Business ...

[User] Yes, I became Assistant Branch Chief under Vic Gondoss, I am

[Assistant] I have read some of the history, so some of the names are familiar, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was able to work with some independence. And the odd part about this was, before long I was permitted to handle researchers in areas with the records of which I was familiar, particularly NRA. We had a lot of economists coming to look at the NRA records. And it was kind of amusing. They referred to me as Dr. Fishbein, and here I had 39 credits. And I said No! I do not have a doctorate. And they looked disappointed! So I figured if they are happy to call me doctor, let them call me doctor. (Laughter) I found this situation kind of amusing, even then.

[Assistant] What was the first job that you served as a supervisor? Was it with the Business ...

[User] Yes, I became Assistant Branch Chief under Vic Gondoss, I am

[Assistant] I have read some of the history, so some of the names are familiar, yes.

[User] We became good friends, always referred to him as the pincher, which I will not explain.

[Assistant] Okay, I won't go there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I became Assistant Branch Chief under Vic Gondoss, I am

[Assistant] I have read some of the history, so some of the names are familiar, yes.

[User] We became good friends, always referred to him as the pincher, which I will not explain.

[Assistant] Okay, I won't go there.

[User] But he was considerably disabled by extreme arthritis and so I had pretty much a free rein working with him. That was pretty much it. But I found that I became quite interested in this whole business of quantification, because of these economists. I saw more economists, I rarely saw historians. So I got the kind of reputation; if you are talking about economics, see Fishbein, even though I had one course in Economics. It was just an unusual situation.

[Assistant] You were with the Business Economics Branch. When did you get involved with Records Appraisal? Was that later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We became good friends, always referred to him as the pincher, which I will not explain.

[Assistant] Okay, I won't go there.

[User] But he was considerably disabled by extreme arthritis and so I had pretty much a free rein working with him. That was pretty much it. But I found that I became quite interested in this whole business of quantification, because of these economists. I saw more economists, I rarely saw historians. So I got the kind of reputation; if you are talking about economics, see Fishbein, even though I had one course in Economics. It was just an unusual situation.

[Assistant] You were with the Business Economics Branch. When did you get involved with Records Appraisal? Was that later?

[User] That's a long story, well it is a bit of a story. For one thing, when I, to become branch chief, Schellenberg arranged that.

[Assistant] We all recognize that name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a long story, well it is a bit of a story. For one thing, when I, to become branch chief, Schellenberg arranged that.

[Assistant] We all recognize that name.

[User] My relations with Schellenberg were pretty interesting, very interesting relationship with Schellenberg. Anyway, I came to Schellenberg and says, "I am stuck at my grade. I'd like a promotion." And he said to me, "Your situation embarrasses me, let's see what we can do," which kind of amazed me, because I was warned not to go to Schellenberg, because Schellenberg was anti-Semitic, and he was

[Assistant] Was he?

[User] Yeah he was. That's a story. I got the background to that from Paul Lewinson, but, anyway. So what he did was he moved Vic Gondos to Military Archives and promoted me as Branch Chief in Vic's place.

[Assistant] How long were you in that position? A number of years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My relations with Schellenberg were pretty interesting, very interesting relationship with Schellenberg. Anyway, I came to Schellenberg and says, "I am stuck at my grade. I'd like a promotion." And he said to me, "Your situation embarrasses me, let's see what we can do," which kind of amazed me, because I was warned not to go to Schellenberg, because Schellenberg was anti-Semitic, and he was

[Assistant] Was he?

[User] Yeah he was. That's a story. I got the background to that from Paul Lewinson, but, anyway. So what he did was he moved Vic Gondos to Military Archives and promoted me as Branch Chief in Vic's place.

[Assistant] How long were you in that position? A number of years?

[User] A few years and then I got involved in a reorganization, a big reorganization at the archives.

[Assistant] Were you involved? Did you do some of the planning for the reorganization or were you just affected by the reorganization?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah he was. That's a story. I got the background to that from Paul Lewinson, but, anyway. So what he did was he moved Vic Gondos to Military Archives and promoted me as Branch Chief in Vic's place.

[Assistant] How long were you in that position? A number of years?

[User] A few years and then I got involved in a reorganization, a big reorganization at the archives.

[Assistant] Were you involved? Did you do some of the planning for the reorganization or were you just affected by the reorganization?

[User] I was greatly affected by the reorganization. I knew something was coming because Bob Bah mer and Walt Robertson said you want to come to lunch. At that time Paul Lewinson retired and I was .. Oliver Wendell Holmes became my immediate boss and they asked me what I thought of Holmes as a boss. I said I won't tell you because if I say anything about him, I want him right here and I refused .to say anything, but I knew something was up and it was a big reorganization.

[Assistant] Was it centered around Holmes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A few years and then I got involved in a reorganization, a big reorganization at the archives.

[Assistant] Were you involved? Did you do some of the planning for the reorganization or were you just affected by the reorganization?

[User] I was greatly affected by the reorganization. I knew something was coming because Bob Bah mer and Walt Robertson said you want to come to lunch. At that time Paul Lewinson retired and I was .. Oliver Wendell Holmes became my immediate boss and they asked me what I thought of Holmes as a boss. I said I won't tell you because if I say anything about him, I want him right here and I refused .to say anything, but I knew something was up and it was a big reorganization.

[Assistant] Was it centered around Holmes?

[User] Yes. The whole Archives was reorganized. And eventually Schellenberg ... first he was made. They had problems with Schellenberg. They didn't like him.

[Assistant] They didn't like his management style?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was greatly affected by the reorganization. I knew something was coming because Bob Bah mer and Walt Robertson said you want to come to lunch. At that time Paul Lewinson retired and I was .. Oliver Wendell Holmes became my immediate boss and they asked me what I thought of Holmes as a boss. I said I won't tell you because if I say anything about him, I want him right here and I refused .to say anything, but I knew something was up and it was a big reorganization.

[Assistant] Was it centered around Holmes?

[User] Yes. The whole Archives was reorganized. And eventually Schellenberg ... first he was made. They had problems with Schellenberg. They didn't like him.

[Assistant] They didn't like his management style?

[User] No. They didn't like his complete independence, his acerbic manner. He would look down on them, on the top office, the whole business of the top office. My relations with them, well I don't want to talk about it. Not very good. Anyway, they wanted to pretty much get Schellenberg out of the way, so they made him Assistant Archivist for Records Appraisal in Office of Records Appraisal and it came at Christmas. I don't know why all of the big things happened at the Archives on Christmas week, including my retirement. Anyway, at the party at Christmas, he shook my hand and he shook a couple of hands and he said "Those whose hands I shook are going to be working for me," and I was very unhappy about it. But it was a big plus for me.

[Assistant] Why was it a big plus for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The whole Archives was reorganized. And eventually Schellenberg ... first he was made. They had problems with Schellenberg. They didn't like him.

[Assistant] They didn't like his management style?

[User] No. They didn't like his complete independence, his acerbic manner. He would look down on them, on the top office, the whole business of the top office. My relations with them, well I don't want to talk about it. Not very good. Anyway, they wanted to pretty much get Schellenberg out of the way, so they made him Assistant Archivist for Records Appraisal in Office of Records Appraisal and it came at Christmas. I don't know why all of the big things happened at the Archives on Christmas week, including my retirement. Anyway, at the party at Christmas, he shook my hand and he shook a couple of hands and he said "Those whose hands I shook are going to be working for me," and I was very unhappy about it. But it was a big plus for me.

[Assistant] Why was it a big plus for you?

[User] Well, for one thing, even though out of the building Schellenberg would not even recognize me, he'd walk right by me as if I didn't even exist, at work our relations were great. It was a complete change. And it was then that he talked about some system for planning the disposition of records by making some kind of retention plan, so I said, "I volunteer. I would like to do it for the Census Bureau as a test."

[Assistant] Okay, so you worked with him in developing retention ... ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They didn't like his complete independence, his acerbic manner. He would look down on them, on the top office, the whole business of the top office. My relations with them, well I don't want to talk about it. Not very good. Anyway, they wanted to pretty much get Schellenberg out of the way, so they made him Assistant Archivist for Records Appraisal in Office of Records Appraisal and it came at Christmas. I don't know why all of the big things happened at the Archives on Christmas week, including my retirement. Anyway, at the party at Christmas, he shook my hand and he shook a couple of hands and he said "Those whose hands I shook are going to be working for me," and I was very unhappy about it. But it was a big plus for me.

[Assistant] Why was it a big plus for you?

[User] Well, for one thing, even though out of the building Schellenberg would not even recognize me, he'd walk right by me as if I didn't even exist, at work our relations were great. It was a complete change. And it was then that he talked about some system for planning the disposition of records by making some kind of retention plan, so I said, "I volunteer. I would like to do it for the Census Bureau as a test."

[Assistant] Okay, so you worked with him in developing retention ... ?

[User] Yeah! Well he outlined some of his ideas and they struck me as very sensible. So I said yeah. And he did talk to me, well, as I said he wouldn't talk to me outside the building. He said okay.

[Assistant] It is interesting how so many interesting people at the Archives almost have this dual personality, whereas they can be very warm, they are willing to share information inside, but away they are not. That's fascinating. You are showing a very interesting side of Schellenberg. I think most of us think of Schellenberg as the author of all these


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for one thing, even though out of the building Schellenberg would not even recognize me, he'd walk right by me as if I didn't even exist, at work our relations were great. It was a complete change. And it was then that he talked about some system for planning the disposition of records by making some kind of retention plan, so I said, "I volunteer. I would like to do it for the Census Bureau as a test."

[Assistant] Okay, so you worked with him in developing retention ... ?

[User] Yeah! Well he outlined some of his ideas and they struck me as very sensible. So I said yeah. And he did talk to me, well, as I said he wouldn't talk to me outside the building. He said okay.

[Assistant] It is interesting how so many interesting people at the Archives almost have this dual personality, whereas they can be very warm, they are willing to share information inside, but away they are not. That's fascinating. You are showing a very interesting side of Schellenberg. I think most of us think of Schellenberg as the author of all these

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] Absolutely, but there is more to him


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah! Well he outlined some of his ideas and they struck me as very sensible. So I said yeah. And he did talk to me, well, as I said he wouldn't talk to me outside the building. He said okay.

[Assistant] It is interesting how so many interesting people at the Archives almost have this dual personality, whereas they can be very warm, they are willing to share information inside, but away they are not. That's fascinating. You are showing a very interesting side of Schellenberg. I think most of us think of Schellenberg as the author of all these

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] Absolutely, but there is more to him

[User] World famous Schellenberg. Schellenberg was world famous.

[Assistant] He still is. There is no question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] Absolutely, but there is more to him

[User] World famous Schellenberg. Schellenberg was world famous.

[Assistant] He still is. There is no question.

[User] But I did find out why his extreme opinions. I don't know if that's relevant to this interview: the cause for some of Schellenberg's behavior. I did get the story. But I don't know if that is of any interest.

[Assistant] I think we would be interested.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] World famous Schellenberg. Schellenberg was world famous.

[Assistant] He still is. There is no question.

[User] But I did find out why his extreme opinions. I don't know if that's relevant to this interview: the cause for some of Schellenberg's behavior. I did get the story. But I don't know if that is of any interest.

[Assistant] I think we would be interested.

[User] You would be interested? It would be pretty brief. During the First World War, he was attacked as a German. There was this antisGerman feeling during the First World War and it really turned him into an extreme Anglophobe. And somehow it tied in with anti-Semitism. I don't know what the connection is. But it was good to know why. I got that whole story from

[Assistant] That does help . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I did find out why his extreme opinions. I don't know if that's relevant to this interview: the cause for some of Schellenberg's behavior. I did get the story. But I don't know if that is of any interest.

[Assistant] I think we would be interested.

[User] You would be interested? It would be pretty brief. During the First World War, he was attacked as a German. There was this antisGerman feeling during the First World War and it really turned him into an extreme Anglophobe. And somehow it tied in with anti-Semitism. I don't know what the connection is. But it was good to know why. I got that whole story from

[Assistant] That does help . .

[User] I don't think anyone around Archives knew that story or very few of them

[Assistant] How did you find out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think anyone around Archives knew that story or very few of them

[Assistant] How did you find out?

[User] Lewinson knew about it

[Assistant] Ok

[User] I had very good relations. See I was very lucky in at all my supervisors, except for one. Everyone one of them was very helpful to me, except for one, Oliver Wendell Holmes.

[Assistant] Ok. It sounds like most of your supervisors recognized that by giving you free reign, you would do well, you would succeed andyou would improve the services that you provided to people. So I know it sounds like it wasn't as controlling as it has become.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lewinson knew about it

[Assistant] Ok

[User] I had very good relations. See I was very lucky in at all my supervisors, except for one. Everyone one of them was very helpful to me, except for one, Oliver Wendell Holmes.

[Assistant] Ok. It sounds like most of your supervisors recognized that by giving you free reign, you would do well, you would succeed andyou would improve the services that you provided to people. So I know it sounds like it wasn't as controlling as it has become.

[User] No, it was just fortunate that I had good relations with my direct supervisors and they did, as you said, they did give me a considerable free reign. And I really enjoyed it. I'd get to work early, I was so anxious to go to work. I enjoyed every day of it.

[Assistant] That is wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was just fortunate that I had good relations with my direct supervisors and they did, as you said, they did give me a considerable free reign. And I really enjoyed it. I'd get to work early, I was so anxious to go to work. I enjoyed every day of it.

[Assistant] That is wonderful.

[User] Except for the last few years.

[Assistant] Because?

[User] Military Archives Division was a bad experience.

[Assistant] Was it the records, was it the people you were dealing with or the lack of resources?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Except for the last few years.

[Assistant] Because?

[User] Military Archives Division was a bad experience.

[Assistant] Was it the records, was it the people you were dealing with or the lack of resources?

[User] Personnel, I had about 90 people.

[Assistant] That is a large staff


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Military Archives Division was a bad experience.

[Assistant] Was it the records, was it the people you were dealing with or the lack of resources?

[User] Personnel, I had about 90 people.

[Assistant] That is a large staff

[User]
And 3 branches. I found that it had been terribly mismanaged. And the odd part of it is, I hate to say this, but Mabel Dietrich had a reputation as a great manager, but she let several people go free who never did a stitch of work. And she also told me I wanted to promote one of the staff and she said, "Oh no you can't promote him, he's too friendly with the rest of the staff." That struck me as dam odd, because I was friendly with all of them. (Laughter)

That struck me as very odd. But I had to fire three people. And get involved in paperwork. I wasn't dealing with records really. Budget, but I really had no control over the budget. It was a sham. That's why I finally quit.

[Assistant] So except for that one last position, you really thoroughly enjoyed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Personnel, I had about 90 people.

[Assistant] That is a large staff

[User]
And 3 branches. I found that it had been terribly mismanaged. And the odd part of it is, I hate to say this, but Mabel Dietrich had a reputation as a great manager, but she let several people go free who never did a stitch of work. And she also told me I wanted to promote one of the staff and she said, "Oh no you can't promote him, he's too friendly with the rest of the staff." That struck me as dam odd, because I was friendly with all of them. (Laughter)

That struck me as very odd. But I had to fire three people. And get involved in paperwork. I wasn't dealing with records really. Budget, but I really had no control over the budget. It was a sham. That's why I finally quit.

[Assistant] So except for that one last position, you really thoroughly enjoyed.

[User] Every day. It may sound odd, but I did enjoy every day of it.

[Assistant] I believe it. I have no doubts about that. What I would like to do and it is close to my heart, and I know that you have been involved with it. I would like to talk about electronic records for a little while, if I can do that. In the book Thirty Years af Electronic Records edited by Bruce Ambacher, you wrote the introduction, which was titled "Recollections of an Electronic Records Pioneer."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And 3 branches. I found that it had been terribly mismanaged. And the odd part of it is, I hate to say this, but Mabel Dietrich had a reputation as a great manager, but she let several people go free who never did a stitch of work. And she also told me I wanted to promote one of the staff and she said, "Oh no you can't promote him, he's too friendly with the rest of the staff." That struck me as dam odd, because I was friendly with all of them. (Laughter)

That struck me as very odd. But I had to fire three people. And get involved in paperwork. I wasn't dealing with records really. Budget, but I really had no control over the budget. It was a sham. That's why I finally quit.

[Assistant] So except for that one last position, you really thoroughly enjoyed.

[User] Every day. It may sound odd, but I did enjoy every day of it.

[Assistant] I believe it. I have no doubts about that. What I would like to do and it is close to my heart, and I know that you have been involved with it. I would like to talk about electronic records for a little while, if I can do that. In the book Thirty Years af Electronic Records edited by Bruce Ambacher, you wrote the introduction, which was titled "Recollections of an Electronic Records Pioneer."

[User] Ambacher gave me that title. I just said introduction. That is all.

[Assistant] But you are a pioneer. What I would like you to do ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every day. It may sound odd, but I did enjoy every day of it.

[Assistant] I believe it. I have no doubts about that. What I would like to do and it is close to my heart, and I know that you have been involved with it. I would like to talk about electronic records for a little while, if I can do that. In the book Thirty Years af Electronic Records edited by Bruce Ambacher, you wrote the introduction, which was titled "Recollections of an Electronic Records Pioneer."

[User] Ambacher gave me that title. I just said introduction. That is all.

[Assistant] But you are a pioneer. What I would like you to do ...

[User] Again, it is an accident.

[Assistant] Alright, well your life seems, your career at the National Archives seems like it was an accident. But can you talk about the history of electronics at the National Archives and what your experiences were, beginning the process of dealing with electronic records under your leadership.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ambacher gave me that title. I just said introduction. That is all.

[Assistant] But you are a pioneer. What I would like you to do ...

[User] Again, it is an accident.

[Assistant] Alright, well your life seems, your career at the National Archives seems like it was an accident. But can you talk about the history of electronics at the National Archives and what your experiences were, beginning the process of dealing with electronic records under your leadership.

[User] Of course I was interested in quantification for a long time and you know I told the story about my seeing these tapes at the Census Bureau, quite by accident. But I recognized that it was a problem. You had to make, do some kind of appraisal. Census Bureau didn't think it needed an appraisal. All they did was use it and then erase it. I don't know if I told that story. "Well," I said, "why do you erase it?" "Because we can save $12.50." I still remember that. So I said well what authority do you have to do that. He said, "We don't need any authority. I said, "What gave you that idea?" "Well you didn't fuss with us about punch cards, so why are you fussing about these tapes?" I said, "No, no. These are records whether they are useful or useless. "So I took a stand. I didn't. I had to act immediately. It is just the way that I am. I didn't wait to go back and then come back again and say this is what we are going to do. No, I said you are not going to destroy these. I will be back with you shortly. So I went back to the Archives and said we got a problem with this electronic business. I didn't call it that. I said this machine readable stuff.

[Assistant] That was the term we used.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well the Bureau of the Budget was in favor of it and a lot of the academics were in favor of it. Well, you know what happened?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well, there was the Chairman of the Subcommittee that dealt with this. I forget what the subcommittee was called, but the New York congressman and he said he had some questions about that. He said," I wantto understand all this data, this electronic business." He said, "If I go on an airline; if I make a reservation on an aircraft. Say I am going to Chicago. He said. "Will that be there?" "Oh yes, that is right on the electronic records." "And if I make a pre-reservation for a hotel in Chicago will that be there?" "Oh yes." Then he said, "Well, what if my secretary made the same reservations and ended up in the same room, would that be on the record?" I remember exactly what he said. The whole audience went dead silent. He said," you are not going to get this." And so it was killed.

[Assistant] Really! That is a wonderful story. (Laughter)

[User] I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] That is unbelievable!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was the Chairman of the Subcommittee that dealt with this. I forget what the subcommittee was called, but the New York congressman and he said he had some questions about that. He said," I wantto understand all this data, this electronic business." He said, "If I go on an airline; if I make a reservation on an aircraft. Say I am going to Chicago. He said. "Will that be there?" "Oh yes, that is right on the electronic records." "And if I make a pre-reservation for a hotel in Chicago will that be there?" "Oh yes." Then he said, "Well, what if my secretary made the same reservations and ended up in the same room, would that be on the record?" I remember exactly what he said. The whole audience went dead silent. He said," you are not going to get this." And so it was killed.

[Assistant] Really! That is a wonderful story. (Laughter)

[User] I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] That is unbelievable!

[User] So I came back to Bahmer. I said, "We have nothing to worry about. The law doesn't specify the medium. The Archives Act refers to all media." He says, "We are already covered. We don't have to go to Congress, we don't have to do anything. " He said, "Maybe we should inform GSA." We were still under GSA then. I says," We can just go ahead and make our own program. But I think we have to do it, start something promptly to avoid interference. And it will become a de facto, part of the National Archives. "And Bob Bah mer was great stuff. But I was again ineligible to head it up, so he designated Ev Allredge as head of this little unit to look into electronic records, which was Ev Allredge, Lou Dotter, who was my boss at that time and me.

[Assistant] It sounds like though you were the one that had the most interest, so you were the one that did