[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I came back to Bahmer. I said, "We have nothing to worry about. The law doesn't specify the medium. The Archives Act refers to all media." He says, "We are already covered. We don't have to go to Congress, we don't have to do anything. " He said, "Maybe we should inform GSA." We were still under GSA then. I says," We can just go ahead and make our own program. But I think we have to do it, start something promptly to avoid interference. And it will become a de facto, part of the National Archives. "And Bob Bah mer was great stuff. But I was again ineligible to head it up, so he designated Ev Allredge as head of this little unit to look into electronic records, which was Ev Allredge, Lou Dotter, who was my boss at that time and me.

[Assistant] It sounds like though you were the one that had the most interest, so you were the one that did

[User] Oh, Ev Allredge was great

[Assistant] Okay

[User] And Lou Dotter was fine, because he was my boss and he really gave me free rein. Daughter succeeded Schellenberg, when Schellenberg retired. This was in Records Appraisal. He would have been a great Archivist of the US. I think he would have been better than anyone that ever got the job.

[Assistant] His name. I do not recognize. How long was he at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know how long. He was head of the Records Management.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] He was a man who knew how to make decisions. He was a very severe supervisor. And I was really glad not to work directly under him, because he was rough. But he would have really turned the Archives upside down and very well. He was sharp, but he ran into one problem.

[Assistant] Which was?

[User] He applied to become Archivist of the United States against Bert Rhoads. And he put down that he had a doctorate, but he never really got the doctorate. He had finished all of everything, but at the very last, he ran out of money and he dropped out.

[Assistant] So he didn't write the dissertation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a man who knew how to make decisions. He was a very severe supervisor. And I was really glad not to work directly under him, because he was rough. But he would have really turned the Archives upside down and very well. He was sharp, but he ran into one problem.

[Assistant] Which was?

[User] He applied to become Archivist of the United States against Bert Rhoads. And he put down that he had a doctorate, but he never really got the doctorate. He had finished all of everything, but at the very last, he ran out of money and he dropped out.

[Assistant] So he didn't write the dissertation?

[User] So that eliminated him and then he finally retired. But he was the sharpest guy. He demanded excellent writing by his staff. I give you an example of how he operated. Some guy I knew said he was to go to an agency to make recommendations on .. l have forgotten what it was. The guy said, "I don't know that area of work, of management." He said, "Well what are you going to do this weekend? You go ahead and do it." That's the way he operated. Sharp. Anyway that's a side issue.

[Assistant] You have been talking about' there are so many people, luminaries that you have worked with. You talked about Schellenberg. Are there others that you could talk briefly about, because for a lot of us they are just names. You are providing us a fuller picture of people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He applied to become Archivist of the United States against Bert Rhoads. And he put down that he had a doctorate, but he never really got the doctorate. He had finished all of everything, but at the very last, he ran out of money and he dropped out.

[Assistant] So he didn't write the dissertation?

[User] So that eliminated him and then he finally retired. But he was the sharpest guy. He demanded excellent writing by his staff. I give you an example of how he operated. Some guy I knew said he was to go to an agency to make recommendations on .. l have forgotten what it was. The guy said, "I don't know that area of work, of management." He said, "Well what are you going to do this weekend? You go ahead and do it." That's the way he operated. Sharp. Anyway that's a side issue.

[Assistant] You have been talking about' there are so many people, luminaries that you have worked with. You talked about Schellenberg. Are there others that you could talk briefly about, because for a lot of us they are just names. You are providing us a fuller picture of people.

[User] Well I can talk about Solon Buck.

[Assistant] That would be interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was quite a scholar, but I had an odd session with him. That's when I was all the way down at the bottom of the scale, a minor archives assistant.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] And I said," I am doing this work, I am doing beyond my grade. I should get a promotion." So, had a big conference. Imagine of the lowest level and the Personnel Director. Solon and all the officials to decide whether I should get a promotion from a SP2. It astounded me. Anyway Solon Buck came in and said this is going to be my decision. And he asked me to come up and talk to him. He said to me, "Believe it or not," he said, "I have some top people in the Archives who are unqualified for what they do, so I can't give you a promotion."

[Assistant] Really!

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That is an interesting story


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I said," I am doing this work, I am doing beyond my grade. I should get a promotion." So, had a big conference. Imagine of the lowest level and the Personnel Director. Solon and all the officials to decide whether I should get a promotion from a SP2. It astounded me. Anyway Solon Buck came in and said this is going to be my decision. And he asked me to come up and talk to him. He said to me, "Believe it or not," he said, "I have some top people in the Archives who are unqualified for what they do, so I can't give you a promotion."

[Assistant] Really!

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That is an interesting story

[User] 1..1 just looked at him in astonishment. Paul Lewinson, who came up there with me to protect me, never said a word, he just walked out. But Solon Buck did something for me that was quite unusual. For one thing, he approved it a month later, which is again crazy.

[Assistant] Do you think Lewinson went in and talked to him afterwards? Do you think there were some discussions after the meeting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1..1 just looked at him in astonishment. Paul Lewinson, who came up there with me to protect me, never said a word, he just walked out. But Solon Buck did something for me that was quite unusual. For one thing, he approved it a month later, which is again crazy.

[Assistant] Do you think Lewinson went in and talked to him afterwards? Do you think there were some discussions after the meeting?

[User] Possible. I think Lewinson, as long as he was there, promoted me, promoted my interests without telling me what he was doing. Lewinson's attitude was he will not take on a fight he can't win. But once he takes on a fight, he will never give up until he does win. And that resulted in incidentally one of the big reorganizations in the Archives. Paul Lewinson, that's another story. Anyway, he did me an odd favor. When I was in the Army, and I had a pretty lousy reputation; I always called myself the Army's worst, worst engineer.

[Assistant] Because ...

[User] I was clumsy. I always was clumsy and I didn't like being pushed around with a lot of nonsense and I showed it. So I was on the carpet, practically every day, but a telegram came from Solon Buck to thank me for my work on the records, the Book on records of World War I and the agencies and records of the First World War. He thanked me for my contributions and here I was way down on the scale. But it so impressed the top sergeant (Laughing)

[Assistant] That he treated you differently?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was clumsy. I always was clumsy and I didn't like being pushed around with a lot of nonsense and I showed it. So I was on the carpet, practically every day, but a telegram came from Solon Buck to thank me for my work on the records, the Book on records of World War I and the agencies and records of the First World War. He thanked me for my contributions and here I was way down on the scale. But it so impressed the top sergeant (Laughing)

[Assistant] That he treated you differently?

[User] Yes, it changed his attitude.

[Assistant] Interesting

[User] Even thought I was told I would never get a promotion because I, an odd story. I got angry at a Lieutenant. It was before D-Day and we were working around the clock. He said I was not working fast enough and I raised my fist to him. And he went to top sergeant and said never give Fishbein a promotion. Anyway it resulted in my being given the task of lecturing the company on the Japanese military. At the very end, we didn't know it at the time, we were due to go to the Pacific directly from Europe to the Pacific, without stopping in United States. I didn't find that out until much later. So I told them, How long do I lecture? They said 3 hours. I lectured for 2 ½ hours, which was a good lesson to me; that I was always shy on talking. Now I talk too much.

[Assistant] It was a good learning experience. It showed that you could.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it changed his attitude.

[Assistant] Interesting

[User] Even thought I was told I would never get a promotion because I, an odd story. I got angry at a Lieutenant. It was before D-Day and we were working around the clock. He said I was not working fast enough and I raised my fist to him. And he went to top sergeant and said never give Fishbein a promotion. Anyway it resulted in my being given the task of lecturing the company on the Japanese military. At the very end, we didn't know it at the time, we were due to go to the Pacific directly from Europe to the Pacific, without stopping in United States. I didn't find that out until much later. So I told them, How long do I lecture? They said 3 hours. I lectured for 2 ½ hours, which was a good lesson to me; that I was always shy on talking. Now I talk too much.

[Assistant] It was a good learning experience. It showed that you could.

[User] Well anyway. All these are side issues, I am sorry.

[Assistant] No, this is very good. Well, let me, you have mentioned several times Archivists of the United States and other top management that you have had. And you have discussed some of your relationships with them. Who, in your opinion was the best Archivist of the United States during your tenure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Even thought I was told I would never get a promotion because I, an odd story. I got angry at a Lieutenant. It was before D-Day and we were working around the clock. He said I was not working fast enough and I raised my fist to him. And he went to top sergeant and said never give Fishbein a promotion. Anyway it resulted in my being given the task of lecturing the company on the Japanese military. At the very end, we didn't know it at the time, we were due to go to the Pacific directly from Europe to the Pacific, without stopping in United States. I didn't find that out until much later. So I told them, How long do I lecture? They said 3 hours. I lectured for 2 ½ hours, which was a good lesson to me; that I was always shy on talking. Now I talk too much.

[Assistant] It was a good learning experience. It showed that you could.

[User] Well anyway. All these are side issues, I am sorry.

[Assistant] No, this is very good. Well, let me, you have mentioned several times Archivists of the United States and other top management that you have had. And you have discussed some of your relationships with them. Who, in your opinion was the best Archivist of the United States during your tenure?

[User] I'd have to say Bob Bahmer. He was no scholar and he knew it, but he was a good manager. I think that distinction is of course the ideal would be to be a good scholar and a good manager. But the Archives was never quite fortunate in that way. My opinion of most of them was not very great. But Bob Bahmer knew what everybody was doing and he'd get after those who weren't fulfilling and again it was regardless of their education.

[Assistant] He was judging them for the work they did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well anyway. All these are side issues, I am sorry.

[Assistant] No, this is very good. Well, let me, you have mentioned several times Archivists of the United States and other top management that you have had. And you have discussed some of your relationships with them. Who, in your opinion was the best Archivist of the United States during your tenure?

[User] I'd have to say Bob Bahmer. He was no scholar and he knew it, but he was a good manager. I think that distinction is of course the ideal would be to be a good scholar and a good manager. But the Archives was never quite fortunate in that way. My opinion of most of them was not very great. But Bob Bahmer knew what everybody was doing and he'd get after those who weren't fulfilling and again it was regardless of their education.

[Assistant] He was judging them for the work they did.

[User] For the work they did and he worked closely with Wayne Grover. That combination was very interesting. I don't know if I should go into that.

[Assistant] But I would like to hear a little about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd have to say Bob Bahmer. He was no scholar and he knew it, but he was a good manager. I think that distinction is of course the ideal would be to be a good scholar and a good manager. But the Archives was never quite fortunate in that way. My opinion of most of them was not very great. But Bob Bahmer knew what everybody was doing and he'd get after those who weren't fulfilling and again it was regardless of their education.

[Assistant] He was judging them for the work they did.

[User] For the work they did and he worked closely with Wayne Grover. That combination was very interesting. I don't know if I should go into that.

[Assistant] But I would like to hear a little about that.

[User] Well, they were both, they went from the Archives to the Pentagon during the war. Wayne Grover married Senator Johnson's daughter. Senator Johnson was a top figure in the Senate. That's what I call a nice marriage, and so he had it made. He was really a nice guy, a good guy. So he and Bob Bah mer was his assistant there and when Grover became Archivist of the U.S., Bob Bah mer had the same position as Deputy Archivist of the United States. Wayne Grover at the end apologized when he retired he apologized to the staff, because he hadn't spent enough time in the Archives. He had spent all of his time developing the regional archival system.

[Assistant] Okay, that was his contribution.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the work they did and he worked closely with Wayne Grover. That combination was very interesting. I don't know if I should go into that.

[Assistant] But I would like to hear a little about that.

[User] Well, they were both, they went from the Archives to the Pentagon during the war. Wayne Grover married Senator Johnson's daughter. Senator Johnson was a top figure in the Senate. That's what I call a nice marriage, and so he had it made. He was really a nice guy, a good guy. So he and Bob Bah mer was his assistant there and when Grover became Archivist of the U.S., Bob Bah mer had the same position as Deputy Archivist of the United States. Wayne Grover at the end apologized when he retired he apologized to the staff, because he hadn't spent enough time in the Archives. He had spent all of his time developing the regional archival system.

[Assistant] Okay, that was his contribution.

[User] Yes, so he left administration to Bob Bahmer and I found I got along pretty well with Bahmer.

[Assistant] Do you think that helped Bob when he became Archivist, because he had been Deputy and he had done ..


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were both, they went from the Archives to the Pentagon during the war. Wayne Grover married Senator Johnson's daughter. Senator Johnson was a top figure in the Senate. That's what I call a nice marriage, and so he had it made. He was really a nice guy, a good guy. So he and Bob Bah mer was his assistant there and when Grover became Archivist of the U.S., Bob Bah mer had the same position as Deputy Archivist of the United States. Wayne Grover at the end apologized when he retired he apologized to the staff, because he hadn't spent enough time in the Archives. He had spent all of his time developing the regional archival system.

[Assistant] Okay, that was his contribution.

[User] Yes, so he left administration to Bob Bahmer and I found I got along pretty well with Bahmer.

[Assistant] Do you think that helped Bob when he became Archivist, because he had been Deputy and he had done ..

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] He knew the agency


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, so he left administration to Bob Bahmer and I found I got along pretty well with Bahmer.

[Assistant] Do you think that helped Bob when he became Archivist, because he had been Deputy and he had done ..

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] He knew the agency

[User] He was really running the agency anyway. He was disliked because he was tough on people who didn't measure up and Bob; not that Bob Bah mer was always right, who is? But I found in general he had good judgement, Good decode a farmer? He could be pretty tough, but sometimes you have to be tough.

[Assistant] I agree. There are times when that has to happen. It is interesting that you have selected one person out of the group and that is nice to hear because for me, I came on when


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] He knew the agency

[User] He was really running the agency anyway. He was disliked because he was tough on people who didn't measure up and Bob; not that Bob Bah mer was always right, who is? But I found in general he had good judgement, Good decode a farmer? He could be pretty tough, but sometimes you have to be tough.

[Assistant] I agree. There are times when that has to happen. It is interesting that you have selected one person out of the group and that is nice to hear because for me, I came on when

[User] Bert?

[Assistant] Yes, so I knew Bert from there on, so I know others by name, but that's all so that is nice to have


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was really running the agency anyway. He was disliked because he was tough on people who didn't measure up and Bob; not that Bob Bah mer was always right, who is? But I found in general he had good judgement, Good decode a farmer? He could be pretty tough, but sometimes you have to be tough.

[Assistant] I agree. There are times when that has to happen. It is interesting that you have selected one person out of the group and that is nice to hear because for me, I came on when

[User] Bert?

[Assistant] Yes, so I knew Bert from there on, so I know others by name, but that's all so that is nice to have

[User] I thought Bert was a disaster. That my shock you, but

[Assistant] Why did you think he was a disaster?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bert?

[Assistant] Yes, so I knew Bert from there on, so I know others by name, but that's all so that is nice to have

[User] I thought Bert was a disaster. That my shock you, but

[Assistant] Why did you think he was a disaster?

[User] He never really understood what was going on internally. And he made, he dealt very poorly with most of the staff. I'm not talking socially. Socially he was great, but

[Assistant] When decisions had to be made he couldn't... ..


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought Bert was a disaster. That my shock you, but

[Assistant] Why did you think he was a disaster?

[User] He never really understood what was going on internally. And he made, he dealt very poorly with most of the staff. I'm not talking socially. Socially he was great, but

[Assistant] When decisions had to be made he couldn't... ..

[User] So he surrounded himself with a few cronies and

[Assistant] That hurt the Archives in your view.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He never really understood what was going on internally. And he made, he dealt very poorly with most of the staff. I'm not talking socially. Socially he was great, but

[Assistant] When decisions had to be made he couldn't... ..

[User] So he surrounded himself with a few cronies and

[Assistant] That hurt the Archives in your view.

[User] Yeah, it came to a head and I had a fight with him. I don't know if you want to hear about that.

[Assistant] I would like to hear about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it came to a head and I had a fight with him. I don't know if you want to hear about that.

[Assistant] I would like to hear about it.

[User] Well, what happened was, there was, I don't know the details. There was some task that involved foreign travel. A consultant, I think was Soviet Union or something like that. know something about Eastern Europe, maybe Poland. Anyway there was one person highly qualified to do that and everyone thought that certainly Bert Rhoads would give him the opportunity. Instead he picked one of his cronies, who knew nothing about the task. Well, they filed a petition, they organized a petition of complaint, saying that so and so should have been given that assignment.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] assignment. And they came to me and I knew nothing about the guy. I knew him by name and not that much. And they briefly told me what it was and I signed the petition. Bert Rhoads called me in and reamed me. He said, "In your position to sign a petition like this." I said, "Bert, let me tell you. You have surrounded yourself with these cronies. You don't have no idea of what 's going on internally. I signed it as my way of protesting to you." So that was a fight.

[Assistant] That really was a fight. He


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, what happened was, there was, I don't know the details. There was some task that involved foreign travel. A consultant, I think was Soviet Union or something like that. know something about Eastern Europe, maybe Poland. Anyway there was one person highly qualified to do that and everyone thought that certainly Bert Rhoads would give him the opportunity. Instead he picked one of his cronies, who knew nothing about the task. Well, they filed a petition, they organized a petition of complaint, saying that so and so should have been given that assignment.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] assignment. And they came to me and I knew nothing about the guy. I knew him by name and not that much. And they briefly told me what it was and I signed the petition. Bert Rhoads called me in and reamed me. He said, "In your position to sign a petition like this." I said, "Bert, let me tell you. You have surrounded yourself with these cronies. You don't have no idea of what 's going on internally. I signed it as my way of protesting to you." So that was a fight.

[Assistant] That really was a fight. He

[User] Yeah. And socially we were great. He was a nice guy. Bert even got along well with his wife. She was a nice woman. So that affected me in several ways, but, not badly, because for some reason he was afraid of me.

[Assistant] Because of your standing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] assignment. And they came to me and I knew nothing about the guy. I knew him by name and not that much. And they briefly told me what it was and I signed the petition. Bert Rhoads called me in and reamed me. He said, "In your position to sign a petition like this." I said, "Bert, let me tell you. You have surrounded yourself with these cronies. You don't have no idea of what 's going on internally. I signed it as my way of protesting to you." So that was a fight.

[Assistant] That really was a fight. He

[User] Yeah. And socially we were great. He was a nice guy. Bert even got along well with his wife. She was a nice woman. So that affected me in several ways, but, not badly, because for some reason he was afraid of me.

[Assistant] Because of your standing?

[User] He thought I had connections. It came up not long after, there was at the American Historical Association. I met, I remember it was meeting in New York and I didn't go. And they were raising questions about, can the National Archives meet our needs.

[Assistant] And there was no one there to respond?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And socially we were great. He was a nice guy. Bert even got along well with his wife. She was a nice woman. So that affected me in several ways, but, not badly, because for some reason he was afraid of me.

[Assistant] Because of your standing?

[User] He thought I had connections. It came up not long after, there was at the American Historical Association. I met, I remember it was meeting in New York and I didn't go. And they were raising questions about, can the National Archives meet our needs.

[Assistant] And there was no one there to respond?

[User] And that included electronic records.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He thought I had connections. It came up not long after, there was at the American Historical Association. I met, I remember it was meeting in New York and I didn't go. And they were raising questions about, can the National Archives meet our needs.

[Assistant] And there was no one there to respond?

[User] And that included electronic records.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] And there was a Professor Lieberman, I think, I forgot the University in Connecticut. He said, "You don't have to worry, appraisal is being handled very well." Bert Rhoads never told me. I had to find out from another searcher. So he thought I had these connections. They couldn't have done anything for me. Bert Rhoads should have known they couldn't do anything for me if I was mistreated. But it came to a head when he very happily abolished the Appraisal Division. But then, he called me in. He says, "Meyer, what job do you want?" I thought, "Gee, asking me after we had a fight." So he was kind of afraid. So I said, "Well Jane Smith is head of Civil Archives Division. That's my, baby, but there is a vacancy_ in Military Archives Division. So I'll take it." That is how I got the job.

[Assistant] We've spent most of the time talking about your work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that included electronic records.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] And there was a Professor Lieberman, I think, I forgot the University in Connecticut. He said, "You don't have to worry, appraisal is being handled very well." Bert Rhoads never told me. I had to find out from another searcher. So he thought I had these connections. They couldn't have done anything for me. Bert Rhoads should have known they couldn't do anything for me if I was mistreated. But it came to a head when he very happily abolished the Appraisal Division. But then, he called me in. He says, "Meyer, what job do you want?" I thought, "Gee, asking me after we had a fight." So he was kind of afraid. So I said, "Well Jane Smith is head of Civil Archives Division. That's my, baby, but there is a vacancy_ in Military Archives Division. So I'll take it." That is how I got the job.

[Assistant] We've spent most of the time talking about your work.

[User] I am sorry.

[Assistant] No, no no. This was been absolutely wonderful. What I am doing is, I am just framing because the next thing we want to do as a transition from work to talk we are talking about professional. How are you doing? Because you have been talking for more than an hour, are you


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was a Professor Lieberman, I think, I forgot the University in Connecticut. He said, "You don't have to worry, appraisal is being handled very well." Bert Rhoads never told me. I had to find out from another searcher. So he thought I had these connections. They couldn't have done anything for me. Bert Rhoads should have known they couldn't do anything for me if I was mistreated. But it came to a head when he very happily abolished the Appraisal Division. But then, he called me in. He says, "Meyer, what job do you want?" I thought, "Gee, asking me after we had a fight." So he was kind of afraid. So I said, "Well Jane Smith is head of Civil Archives Division. That's my, baby, but there is a vacancy_ in Military Archives Division. So I'll take it." That is how I got the job.

[Assistant] We've spent most of the time talking about your work.

[User] I am sorry.

[Assistant] No, no no. This was been absolutely wonderful. What I am doing is, I am just framing because the next thing we want to do as a transition from work to talk we are talking about professional. How are you doing? Because you have been talking for more than an hour, are you

[User] I'm sorry

[Assistant] No! Why are you apologizing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am sorry.

[Assistant] No, no no. This was been absolutely wonderful. What I am doing is, I am just framing because the next thing we want to do as a transition from work to talk we are talking about professional. How are you doing? Because you have been talking for more than an hour, are you

[User] I'm sorry

[Assistant] No! Why are you apologizing?

[User] I blab too much.

[Assistant] This is absolutely superb! Don't apologize at all. What I want to do is to talk a little bit about your professional development. Are you okay? Would you like a break or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry

[Assistant] No! Why are you apologizing?

[User] I blab too much.

[Assistant] This is absolutely superb! Don't apologize at all. What I want to do is to talk a little bit about your professional development. Are you okay? Would you like a break or anything?

[User] No, I am fine.

[Assistant] Terrific. You stayed involved in archives after your retirement: for example, your work on the restoration of Ellis Island. Talk a little about that and other archives issues that you continued to work on, once yo~ retired.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well a friend of mine, we had not been in touch for a long time. Bellino had a doctorate, he came to me and he was interested in this movement to restore Ellis Island. He would like to have a little group in DC to back this. At that time it was an ad hoc group headed by the chancellor of the university, New Jersey. Anyway, so I said yes. I would use the archives to check on what we have on Ellis Island. I got to know Phil Lax, who was heading this up and then it was given official status by the Department of the Interior. One of their big projects was to have electronic access to immigrants.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] So I said great idea. They had a contract with IBM that was very favorable. IBM thought it was such a good idea and good publicity for IBM, too. So eventually I became a sort of director of the Ellis Island Restoration Commission. And I am still director. I haven't done a darn thing. They still correspond with me.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Some of them worked very hard on this. But I just wrote them that now that I am blind I can't do much, but I really would like to be kept informed on the progress and they have done very well.

[Assistant] They have done well, haven't they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I said great idea. They had a contract with IBM that was very favorable. IBM thought it was such a good idea and good publicity for IBM, too. So eventually I became a sort of director of the Ellis Island Restoration Commission. And I am still director. I haven't done a darn thing. They still correspond with me.

[Assistant] That's wonderful.

[User] Some of them worked very hard on this. But I just wrote them that now that I am blind I can't do much, but I really would like to be kept informed on the progress and they have done very well.

[Assistant] They have done well, haven't they?

[User] Yes. It is now called the Bob Hope Memorial. I didn't like the idea of giving it to Bob Hope, but

[Assistant] Why did they choose Bob Hope? That doesn't make sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of them worked very hard on this. But I just wrote them that now that I am blind I can't do much, but I really would like to be kept informed on the progress and they have done very well.

[Assistant] They have done well, haven't they?

[User] Yes. It is now called the Bob Hope Memorial. I didn't like the idea of giving it to Bob Hope, but

[Assistant] Why did they choose Bob Hope? That doesn't make sense.

[User] Well he is an immigrant and he is a big name. That's simply that.

[Assistant] That's the reason why.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It is now called the Bob Hope Memorial. I didn't like the idea of giving it to Bob Hope, but

[Assistant] Why did they choose Bob Hope? That doesn't make sense.

[User] Well he is an immigrant and he is a big name. That's simply that.

[Assistant] That's the reason why.

[User] It's very simple. Of course Bob Hope is famous.

[Assistant] I think USO that's more of how I think of Bob Hope.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well he is an immigrant and he is a big name. That's simply that.

[Assistant] That's the reason why.

[User] It's very simple. Of course Bob Hope is famous.

[Assistant] I think USO that's more of how I think of Bob Hope.

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] Not as much with Ellis Island and immigration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's very simple. Of course Bob Hope is famous.

[Assistant] I think USO that's more of how I think of Bob Hope.

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] Not as much with Ellis Island and immigration.

[User] But they did a terrific job, I think. I haven't been there in a very long time on the Island. I did attend a few meetings in New York. Then I gave up. Getting to New York, I'd go to the meeting, come back the same day.

[Assistant] That can be tiring.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] Not as much with Ellis Island and immigration.

[User] But they did a terrific job, I think. I haven't been there in a very long time on the Island. I did attend a few meetings in New York. Then I gave up. Getting to New York, I'd go to the meeting, come back the same day.

[Assistant] That can be tiring.

[User] Yeah and just to meet for a couple of hours. So I would take an early train. It was a good experience.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in other archive issues besides Ellis Island since you retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they did a terrific job, I think. I haven't been there in a very long time on the Island. I did attend a few meetings in New York. Then I gave up. Getting to New York, I'd go to the meeting, come back the same day.

[Assistant] That can be tiring.

[User] Yeah and just to meet for a couple of hours. So I would take an early train. It was a good experience.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in other archive issues besides Ellis Island since you retired?

[User] I did some consulting. Somehow or other I never bothered to seek consulting jobs, but

[Assistant] They came to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah and just to meet for a couple of hours. So I would take an early train. It was a good experience.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in other archive issues besides Ellis Island since you retired?

[User] I did some consulting. Somehow or other I never bothered to seek consulting jobs, but

[Assistant] They came to you.

[User] But the National Archives Commission asked me to .. I did, since I was a graduate of American University. I did an inventory and then sort of an appraisal of American University records. It always disappointed me that Ernst Posner was so anxious for American University to take the lead in that area of university archives. The university never did. I tried to do it. I tried to push them into it, but they never took advantage of that once Posner retired.

[Assistant] That is too bad, because so much was done then teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did some consulting. Somehow or other I never bothered to seek consulting jobs, but

[Assistant] They came to you.

[User] But the National Archives Commission asked me to .. I did, since I was a graduate of American University. I did an inventory and then sort of an appraisal of American University records. It always disappointed me that Ernst Posner was so anxious for American University to take the lead in that area of university archives. The university never did. I tried to do it. I tried to push them into it, but they never took advantage of that once Posner retired.

[Assistant] That is too bad, because so much was done then teaching.

[User] Posner was such a good friend of mine. I still miss him.

[Assistant] He was one ofthe bright lights.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Posner was such a good friend of mine. I still miss him.

[Assistant] He was one ofthe bright lights.

[User] Oh yeah. He was a fine gentleman and an excellent writer in English. He took a course in American Constitutional History at the University of Berlin.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] That is fascinating


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. He was a fine gentleman and an excellent writer in English. He took a course in American Constitutional History at the University of Berlin.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] That is fascinating

[User] Until they threw him into the concentration camp. That is a different story

[Assistant] What I would like to do is switch gears and talk about


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] That is fascinating

[User] Until they threw him into the concentration camp. That is a different story

[Assistant] What I would like to do is switch gears and talk about

[User] Sorry.

[Assistant] No, this is good. This has been wonderful. While your career at the National Archives predates the founding of the Assembly, what do you know about the Assembly and how do you feel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sorry.

[Assistant] No, this is good. This has been wonderful. While your career at the National Archives predates the founding of the Assembly, what do you know about the Assembly and how do you feel?

[User] Nothing

[Assistant] Nothing?

[User] There was an assembly established by Solon Buck. Where he would keep the staff informed about and talk about major issues. The assembly at that time was the complete staff. He also had small conferences of the professional archivists, where he would probe them on their ideas.

[Assistant] But it wasn't. It was more him pushing out information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing

[Assistant] Nothing?

[User] There was an assembly established by Solon Buck. Where he would keep the staff informed about and talk about major issues. The assembly at that time was the complete staff. He also had small conferences of the professional archivists, where he would probe them on their ideas.

[Assistant] But it wasn't. It was more him pushing out information.

[User] Yes

[Assistant] It wasn't trying, it wasn't a group coming together to try to improve the situation at the National Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes

[Assistant] It wasn't trying, it wasn't a group coming together to try to improve the situation at the National Archives.

[User] No, he did that with small groups.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] In fact, he did that pretty regularly. He would call them. This is one of the issues. What do you think? At least there he showed used good judgment. Saying what do you think? Most of them did not think at all.

[Assistant] Alright. I know that you were very active.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he did that with small groups.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] In fact, he did that pretty regularly. He would call them. This is one of the issues. What do you think? At least there he showed used good judgment. Saying what do you think? Most of them did not think at all.

[Assistant] Alright. I know that you were very active.

[User] No, but I wasn't, I wasn't

[Assistant] No, I was saying you were very active in the Society of American Archivists. Talk about your roles and responsibilities with SAA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, he did that pretty regularly. He would call them. This is one of the issues. What do you think? At least there he showed used good judgment. Saying what do you think? Most of them did not think at all.

[Assistant] Alright. I know that you were very active.

[User] No, but I wasn't, I wasn't

[Assistant] No, I was saying you were very active in the Society of American Archivists. Talk about your roles and responsibilities with SAA.

[User] Oh yeah. Well that was an important part of my career. I still remember. I was coming back from lunch and one of the founders of the National Archives, I can't quite remember his name. At that time he was Editor of The American Archivist, said to me, "Why don't you join the SAA? So I said quite seriously, "I don't think they want me." I really meant that because these were professional archivists, you know. You had to be voted on to become a member.

[Assistant] It was a different situation back then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Well that was an important part of my career. I still remember. I was coming back from lunch and one of the founders of the National Archives, I can't quite remember his name. At that time he was Editor of The American Archivist, said to me, "Why don't you join the SAA? So I said quite seriously, "I don't think they want me." I really meant that because these were professional archivists, you know. You had to be voted on to become a member.

[Assistant] It was a different situation back then.

[User] Of, quite, quite different. So oh no, he says. You told me to apply and I applied. It took me a few months before I was approved at that time. And I did go to a meeting in Williamsburg at that time and I was completely ignored.

[Assistant] Were you?

[User] Completely ignored

[Assistant] But that didn't stop you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of, quite, quite different. So oh no, he says. You told me to apply and I applied. It took me a few months before I was approved at that time. And I did go to a meeting in Williamsburg at that time and I was completely ignored.

[Assistant] Were you?

[User] Completely ignored

[Assistant] But that didn't stop you.

[User] Well, I then became active and it all ties in with Machine Readable Records and also business archives. What happened was Oliver Holmes was the one man chairman of the Business Archives Committee of SAA. When he got to a higher grade, he felt he couldn't continue in that position so he asked me to succeed him. So I was a one man head of a committee. At that time Business Archives had not really gotten a start. And then I did my essay on The History of Business Archives, had made some kind of impressions. And then the committee was expanded to cover business, labor and social organizations. So it got to be quite a large committee. It was a lot of fun chairing that. I had three little subgroups, one for business, one for labor, one for social organizations. Prepared papers.

[Assistant] Did they meet separately and they would come together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Completely ignored

[Assistant] But that didn't stop you.

[User] Well, I then became active and it all ties in with Machine Readable Records and also business archives. What happened was Oliver Holmes was the one man chairman of the Business Archives Committee of SAA. When he got to a higher grade, he felt he couldn't continue in that position so he asked me to succeed him. So I was a one man head of a committee. At that time Business Archives had not really gotten a start. And then I did my essay on The History of Business Archives, had made some kind of impressions. And then the committee was expanded to cover business, labor and social organizations. So it got to be quite a large committee. It was a lot of fun chairing that. I had three little subgroups, one for business, one for labor, one for social organizations. Prepared papers.

[Assistant] Did they meet separately and they would come together?

[User] Yes and I had them each prepare recommendations for organization of archives: to advise organizations on how they can establish archives. I don't know whatever happened to the papers we prepared.

[Assistant] I am sure they are in the SAA archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I then became active and it all ties in with Machine Readable Records and also business archives. What happened was Oliver Holmes was the one man chairman of the Business Archives Committee of SAA. When he got to a higher grade, he felt he couldn't continue in that position so he asked me to succeed him. So I was a one man head of a committee. At that time Business Archives had not really gotten a start. And then I did my essay on The History of Business Archives, had made some kind of impressions. And then the committee was expanded to cover business, labor and social organizations. So it got to be quite a large committee. It was a lot of fun chairing that. I had three little subgroups, one for business, one for labor, one for social organizations. Prepared papers.

[Assistant] Did they meet separately and they would come together?

[User] Yes and I had them each prepare recommendations for organization of archives: to advise organizations on how they can establish archives. I don't know whatever happened to the papers we prepared.

[Assistant] I am sure they are in the SAA archives.

[User] Probably buried somewhere. But it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] And so you continued. A lot of your work did focus on machine readable records because of the expertise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ah, that was a key part: again circumstances. Ev Aldridge was sort of a one man chairman of the Machine-Readable Committee.

[Assistant] Okay

[User]
I think they had a couple of people. But when he became, let's see was he retiring? For some reason he had to give it up. And he said, "Well Meyer, you become chairman." Well, when I became chairman and the question came up at the International Council on Archives. "We ought to look into this whole business ... " They said we need a chairman of a task force to look into the implications for archives. So Morris Riegel, who was there said, "Well Fishbein's chairing a committee on machine readable records. Okay, we will make him chairman of the task force." (Laughter)

Again circumstance you know. And that again quite changed my career.

[Assistant] How so?

[User] Because the task force met in Spoleto Italy and prepared a study of ways of informing the archival community about all the issues concerning automation. -So it was supposed to be a one-meeting task force. They said we'll make it a continuing committee, so for 8 years I chaired the committee, what we called the Committee on Organization. Others called it the Committee on Data Processing. In fact that was the official designation: ICA-DP.

[Assistant] Ah, and so you meet for


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because the task force met in Spoleto Italy and prepared a study of ways of informing the archival community about all the issues concerning automation. -So it was supposed to be a one-meeting task force. They said we'll make it a continuing committee, so for 8 years I chaired the committee, what we called the Committee on Organization. Others called it the Committee on Data Processing. In fact that was the official designation: ICA-DP.

[Assistant] Ah, and so you meet for

[User] Met in Europe, met in Africa.

[Assistant] Wow

[User] All over

[Assistant] You got exposure


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Met in Europe, met in Africa.

[Assistant] Wow

[User] All over

[Assistant] You got exposure

[User] It was fun

[Assistant] Was this how you did your world travels, it was thru ICA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All over

[Assistant] You got exposure

[User] It was fun

[Assistant] Was this how you did your world travels, it was thru ICA?

[User] Yeah. I can tell you what happened was when I was asked to be chairman, I asked, "How am I going to get there?" and Ernst Posner said, "You are obliged to go." He was a real Prussian. Obliged to go. I said, "The Archives is not going to do anything for me." So I applied for a grant and the Council of Library Resources, when they heard what it was all about said "We will pay your expenses."

[Assistant] How nice! So you are probably one of the first people to look for other sources for funding for travel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I can tell you what happened was when I was asked to be chairman, I asked, "How am I going to get there?" and Ernst Posner said, "You are obliged to go." He was a real Prussian. Obliged to go. I said, "The Archives is not going to do anything for me." So I applied for a grant and the Council of Library Resources, when they heard what it was all about said "We will pay your expenses."

[Assistant] How nice! So you are probably one of the first people to look for other sources for funding for travel.

[User] No, I was not the only one. But in fact Morris Rieger, who became was really well known abroad more than in the United States got grants for himself. He was the one who made suggestions for me. The interesting part about that was Bert Rhoads was asked to designate a member of the Task Force. He said well Fishbein already is a member, so he should have paid my way, but that's another story. It was a great experience.

[Assistant] Good

[User] I'm sorry.

[Assistant] There is nothing. I understand now why people get mad at me because I am always apologizing. There is nothing to be sorry for at all. This has been absolutely wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not the only one. But in fact Morris Rieger, who became was really well known abroad more than in the United States got grants for himself. He was the one who made suggestions for me. The interesting part about that was Bert Rhoads was asked to designate a member of the Task Force. He said well Fishbein already is a member, so he should have paid my way, but that's another story. It was a great experience.

[Assistant] Good

[User] I'm sorry.

[Assistant] There is nothing. I understand now why people get mad at me because I am always apologizing. There is nothing to be sorry for at all. This has been absolutely wonderful.

[User] I am tying up my daughter, too.

[Assistant] We have a few more questions. Your daughter said no. I think she is enjoying hearing all these stories as well, so not a problem. Okay. I am going to ask a few questions about the National Archives, your views about the Nation.al Archives. What do you feel are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am tying up my daughter, too.

[Assistant] We have a few more questions. Your daughter said no. I think she is enjoying hearing all these stories as well, so not a problem. Okay. I am going to ask a few questions about the National Archives, your views about the Nation.al Archives. What do you feel are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives today?

[User] The same

[Assistant] The same?

[User] The same as the day was I showed up.

[Assistant] What are they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same

[Assistant] The same?

[User] The same as the day was I showed up.

[Assistant] What are they?

[User] That is making reasonable decisions on disposition of records. In one way it has become easier. So much thought given to it and experiences. On the other way, it's increasingly difficult. With the Imperial presidency and expanding bureaucracy, the problems get more demanding. Also the experiences that they are relying on were often very faulty. So this is my opinion of course.

[Assistant] That's what I want.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same as the day was I showed up.

[Assistant] What are they?

[User] That is making reasonable decisions on disposition of records. In one way it has become easier. So much thought given to it and experiences. On the other way, it's increasingly difficult. With the Imperial presidency and expanding bureaucracy, the problems get more demanding. Also the experiences that they are relying on were often very faulty. So this is my opinion of course.

[Assistant] That's what I want.

[User] I can't.be very specific, but I remember looking at they wanted to have an exact way of doing appraisal. Appraisal isn't a science, it's an art. You have a feel for it. Some people have it, some people don't. You have to make reasonable decisions in a reasonable amount of time. The people have told me, "I can't do it." I said "Fine, that's not your baby." They weren't able to make decisions in a reasonable amount of time. And my view, the big aim of appraisal, can you make 90% good opinions.

[Assistant] I completely agree with you. I think there is an angst about that. There still is this discussion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't.be very specific, but I remember looking at they wanted to have an exact way of doing appraisal. Appraisal isn't a science, it's an art. You have a feel for it. Some people have it, some people don't. You have to make reasonable decisions in a reasonable amount of time. The people have told me, "I can't do it." I said "Fine, that's not your baby." They weren't able to make decisions in a reasonable amount of time. And my view, the big aim of appraisal, can you make 90% good opinions.

[Assistant] I completely agree with you. I think there is an angst about that. There still is this discussion.

[User] It doesn't make any difference what the medium is.

[Assistant] Right

[User] The medium. It's a special kind of a skill that you have or don't have. You can smell the problems. You shouldn't spend more than a few seconds on some decisions and then some you have to worry about.

[Assistant] Okay. That's a very, very good point. It sounds like from just the way you are speaking about this that the appraisal was one of the places that you really enjoyed being at.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It doesn't make any difference what the medium is.

[Assistant] Right

[User] The medium. It's a special kind of a skill that you have or don't have. You can smell the problems. You shouldn't spend more than a few seconds on some decisions and then some you have to worry about.

[Assistant] Okay. That's a very, very good point. It sounds like from just the way you are speaking about this that the appraisal was one of the places that you really enjoyed being at.

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] Talk to me about how you have enjoyed working at all the different places. What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career at NARA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The medium. It's a special kind of a skill that you have or don't have. You can smell the problems. You shouldn't spend more than a few seconds on some decisions and then some you have to worry about.

[Assistant] Okay. That's a very, very good point. It sounds like from just the way you are speaking about this that the appraisal was one of the places that you really enjoyed being at.

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] Talk to me about how you have enjoyed working at all the different places. What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career at NARA?

[User] The most significant?

[Assistant] It could be a couple. It doesn't have to be just the one. It can be several.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes

[Assistant] Talk to me about how you have enjoyed working at all the different places. What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career at NARA?

[User] The most significant?

[Assistant] It could be a couple. It doesn't have to be just the one. It can be several.

[User] There were so many bounces.

[Assistant] That's an interesting phrase.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The most significant?

[Assistant] It could be a couple. It doesn't have to be just the one. It can be several.

[User] There were so many bounces.

[Assistant] That's an interesting phrase.

[User] I suppose, I suppose in a way. This is something that you would appreciate. suppose in a way it was electronic records, despite the fact that I was completely unqualified.

[Assistant] Who would be qualified to deal with electronic records? No one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suppose, I suppose in a way. This is something that you would appreciate. suppose in a way it was electronic records, despite the fact that I was completely unqualified.

[Assistant] Who would be qualified to deal with electronic records? No one.

[User] I knew nothing. I knew nothing. They had people come in. Ev Allridge got a staff together. This was the very beginnings. People who knew a little about electronics, but they weren't archivists-and so they went off in crazy directions. I knew nothing. I didn't have a computer, didn't use a computer until much later. In fact, I started out with my daughter giving, giving me her reject. That is literally true.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But I went around and I pounded the archivists. "Pay attention, this I important," and I got a lot of resistance.

[Assistant] I am not surprised.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the State Department was talking about completely electronic control of all information. This was actually proposed. "Oh no, you can't do that. You have to have the paper." I said, "Why, you can't tell an agency to only have paper." And there was a great deal of resistance on that. I went over to State Department and looked into what they were doing. They were doing some good things. Of course, but they never achieved what they

[Assistant] No

[User] This was pie in the sky stuff.

[Assistant] Right

[User] But it was fascinating to me to actually sit down and figure out what archivists ought to do about it without knowing a darn thing about electronics.

[Assistant] But you set the precedent and so people started doing things about it. And we are still learning. There is no question, but it was because of you and your work that we are where we are today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was pie in the sky stuff.

[Assistant] Right

[User] But it was fascinating to me to actually sit down and figure out what archivists ought to do about it without knowing a darn thing about electronics.

[Assistant] But you set the precedent and so people started doing things about it. And we are still learning. There is no question, but it was because of you and your work that we are where we are today.

[User] Of course it resulted in all kinds of changes.

[Assistant] Yes it did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was fascinating to me to actually sit down and figure out what archivists ought to do about it without knowing a darn thing about electronics.

[Assistant] But you set the precedent and so people started doing things about it. And we are still learning. There is no question, but it was because of you and your work that we are where we are today.

[User] Of course it resulted in all kinds of changes.

[Assistant] Yes it did.

[User] In fact, it caused an immediate promotion at the Archives. Lou Douter. We were all appraisers, a whole group of appraisers, he made me Assistant Division Chief and there was a protest that I was unqualified because I was too junior. He said, Lou Douter said "Well he's the one who did something about machine readable records." He just said that flatly and that's it. Again, circumstance.

[Assistant] You made a point that you went over to see what was going on with State Department.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course it resulted in all kinds of changes.

[Assistant] Yes it did.

[User] In fact, it caused an immediate promotion at the Archives. Lou Douter. We were all appraisers, a whole group of appraisers, he made me Assistant Division Chief and there was a protest that I was unqualified because I was too junior. He said, Lou Douter said "Well he's the one who did something about machine readable records." He just said that flatly and that's it. Again, circumstance.

[Assistant] You made a point that you went over to see what was going on with State Department.

[User] I ran around a lot, cause I didn't know anything about it. And I went to Ann Arbor to look into the operation there, where they had this tremendous files of punch cards. They were going to convert them to tape. I got some good relations there and I tried to inform myself as much as I could by reading, just running around. I just ran around a lot.

[Assistant] And you taught yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, it caused an immediate promotion at the Archives. Lou Douter. We were all appraisers, a whole group of appraisers, he made me Assistant Division Chief and there was a protest that I was unqualified because I was too junior. He said, Lou Douter said "Well he's the one who did something about machine readable records." He just said that flatly and that's it. Again, circumstance.

[Assistant] You made a point that you went over to see what was going on with State Department.

[User] I ran around a lot, cause I didn't know anything about it. And I went to Ann Arbor to look into the operation there, where they had this tremendous files of punch cards. They were going to convert them to tape. I got some good relations there and I tried to inform myself as much as I could by reading, just running around. I just ran around a lot.

[Assistant] And you taught yourself.

[User] I just didn't know what the problem was.

[Assistant] Since you were dealing with various agencies, what do you think that NARA's reputation is with other federal agencies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just didn't know what the problem was.

[Assistant] Since you were dealing with various agencies, what do you think that NARA's reputation is with other federal agencies?

[User] Oh I think there is considerable appreciation, because we were helping solve some of their problems. They were piling records into basements, filling corridors with records that they didn't know what do with. And other times we would get resistance. And I got resistance on electronic records of all things. There was a meeting of the heads of Records Management and Ev Allredge says to me "Why don't you come along. Give a little talk." So I went there and I had all things prepared in my mind, what I would say. What happened Ev Aldridge said exactly the same thing what I had in my mind. I had nothing to say, so what I did was I said, "You've got to get on the ball, you've got to do something about it. "Some of you," I said, "are not doing your job as far as electronic records." And boy did I get a reaction, particularly from the guy from the Interior Department.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] He got so angry with me. I said, "Well, this is it." I said, "You are either going to get involved or you are going to be completely ignored by your agency. So

[Assistant] As time went on and you were working with agencies and with machine readable, electronic records, should NARA have done things differently? Or were we dealing with the agencies in the right way? Or should we have been doing something else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He got so angry with me. I said, "Well, this is it." I said, "You are either going to get involved or you are going to be completely ignored by your agency. So

[Assistant] As time went on and you were working with agencies and with machine readable, electronic records, should NARA have done things differently? Or were we dealing with the agencies in the right way? Or should we have been doing something else?

[User] Well, that's hard to say Fynnette, because we moved something into something new and we had to, we had to act for one thing. That is the key point.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We couldn't stall around and have it taken away from the Archives. And so you have to develop systems for surveying records and so to say we did it well or not, we acted so people knew that we were involved and they can come to the Archives, even though we didn't have any answers.

[Assistant] Well, then in some ways you're answering my next q~estion, but I want to expand upon it a little bit. What does NARA do right? We act when necessary it sounds like. That is one of the things. But what other things do you think NARA does right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's hard to say Fynnette, because we moved something into something new and we had to, we had to act for one thing. That is the key point.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We couldn't stall around and have it taken away from the Archives. And so you have to develop systems for surveying records and so to say we did it well or not, we acted so people knew that we were involved and they can come to the Archives, even though we didn't have any answers.

[Assistant] Well, then in some ways you're answering my next q~estion, but I want to expand upon it a little bit. What does NARA do right? We act when necessary it sounds like. That is one of the things. But what other things do you think NARA does right?

[User] I think they did pretty well on the problem of access. There was resistance to making certain information available. I think most archivists did the good fight to have maximum reasonable access, knowing what should be kept confidential, but not to hide stuff that should not be confidential. I think the Archives imperfectly, of course, but I think they did it pretty well.

[Assistant] Their heart is in the right place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We couldn't stall around and have it taken away from the Archives. And so you have to develop systems for surveying records and so to say we did it well or not, we acted so people knew that we were involved and they can come to the Archives, even though we didn't have any answers.

[Assistant] Well, then in some ways you're answering my next q~estion, but I want to expand upon it a little bit. What does NARA do right? We act when necessary it sounds like. That is one of the things. But what other things do you think NARA does right?

[User] I think they did pretty well on the problem of access. There was resistance to making certain information available. I think most archivists did the good fight to have maximum reasonable access, knowing what should be kept confidential, but not to hide stuff that should not be confidential. I think the Archives imperfectly, of course, but I think they did it pretty well.

[Assistant] Their heart is in the right place?

[User] Yeah, that is exactly right.

[Assistant] OK. And then I understand that you have been involved with some pretty interesting cases that I think it is the Rosenberg.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they did pretty well on the problem of access. There was resistance to making certain information available. I think most archivists did the good fight to have maximum reasonable access, knowing what should be kept confidential, but not to hide stuff that should not be confidential. I think the Archives imperfectly, of course, but I think they did it pretty well.

[Assistant] Their heart is in the right place?

[User] Yeah, that is exactly right.

[Assistant] OK. And then I understand that you have been involved with some pretty interesting cases that I think it is the Rosenberg.

[User] Rosenberg.

[Assistant] Tell me a little about those cases.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh its .. well I did an article on precedent for electronic records as legal evidence because the case hadn't come up.

[Assistant] And now that's all they talk. It's the only thing they talk about.

[User] Yeah, so I wrote an article about the precedent, an 1840 case.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Well, I have forgotten what the title is. It was a case a freed black man in Delaware had done some work for a big landowner, a powerful figure in Delaware and was never pa,id for his work. And he was an illiterate. So he had his, he recorded his data on a stick, by putting notches on a stick. So there were two prime lawyers in that case. One very important, this is 1840, took his case pro bono, took the black mari's case pro bono. And there was and it odd because there one was Yale and one was Harvard. I remember that. Took the case and it revolved around, is the stick evidence? And the question was, did you alter the notches after the incident, your work? No, he did it just as he finished the job, he put some notches. So the decision was that this was a business record and admissible as evidence. And the black man won his case.

[Assistant] That's incredible, that's wonderful


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so I wrote an article about the precedent, an 1840 case.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Well, I have forgotten what the title is. It was a case a freed black man in Delaware had done some work for a big landowner, a powerful figure in Delaware and was never pa,id for his work. And he was an illiterate. So he had his, he recorded his data on a stick, by putting notches on a stick. So there were two prime lawyers in that case. One very important, this is 1840, took his case pro bono, took the black mari's case pro bono. And there was and it odd because there one was Yale and one was Harvard. I remember that. Took the case and it revolved around, is the stick evidence? And the question was, did you alter the notches after the incident, your work? No, he did it just as he finished the job, he put some notches. So the decision was that this was a business record and admissible as evidence. And the black man won his case.

[Assistant] That's incredible, that's wonderful

[User] I thought it was. Fascinating to me.

[Assistant] Yes, well 1. One of the things that has been noted, that you had been a consultant to the FBI.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Emma Goldman, yeah. See what happened was, I don't know if you are interested in that.

[Assistant] Yes!

[User] Good, well I got a call from New York, that when Emma Goldman was arrested she had been the head of a group of players. You know, put on theater and they wanted to know what happened to those theater records. And they never got a reply from the FBI. So I said okay. I went to the FBI and I said; "What's the problem? You've got this request. Why don't you answer it?" He says "Well why don't you look?" He says, "We'll give you all the papers, copies on microfilm of all of Emma Goldman's, we have on Emma Goldman. There is no reference to this theater." So I said, "Well, why are you sitting on all of this old stuff, you know just give it to the Archives with some cut-off date. " The cut off date they chose was J. Edgar become Director of the ..

[Assistant] Really!

[User] Of the FBI. So he says, "Well, I will. Fishbein, you want it, take it! I've got a thousand reels of film." Laughter

[Assistant] That is incredible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of the FBI. So he says, "Well, I will. Fishbein, you want it, take it! I've got a thousand reels of film." Laughter

[Assistant] That is incredible.

[User] That included the index.

[Assistant] Wow!

[User] And I went through the, I examined the quality. I was just fascinated by some of this stuff they had.

[Assistant] That is remarkable. There have been so many times in which you have been there are the right place and you've been able to


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That included the index.

[Assistant] Wow!

[User] And I went through the, I examined the quality. I was just fascinated by some of this stuff they had.

[Assistant] That is remarkable. There have been so many times in which you have been there are the right place and you've been able to

[User] Yeah, all accidents. Laughter

[Assistant] Alright, one and I have you were also an adjunct professor at American University. Do did you work closely with Posner at that point? Is that when you knew Posner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I went through the, I examined the quality. I was just fascinated by some of this stuff they had.

[Assistant] That is remarkable. There have been so many times in which you have been there are the right place and you've been able to

[User] Yeah, all accidents. Laughter

[Assistant] Alright, one and I have you were also an adjunct professor at American University. Do did you work closely with Posner at that point? Is that when you knew Posner?

[User] Yeah, well, I became, you know

[Assistant] You became a professor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, I became, you know

[Assistant] You became a professor.

[User] Yeah, adj~nct professor, when Posner retired.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] I took over his course for two or three years.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy the teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, adj~nct professor, when Posner retired.

[Assistant] Okay

[User] I took over his course for two or three years.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy the teaching?

[User]
Yeah, I think I wasn't easy on the students though. I demanded that they come exactly on time. I don't know why. Laughter

In fact I reamed one at the first session. I says, "I start m classes on time, so he apologized. And I said, "Well here is a piece of paper. Tell me where you work and your phone number." He was a member of Congress

[Assistant] Oh my goodness!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took over his course for two or three years.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy the teaching?

[User]
Yeah, I think I wasn't easy on the students though. I demanded that they come exactly on time. I don't know why. Laughter

In fact I reamed one at the first session. I says, "I start m classes on time, so he apologized. And I said, "Well here is a piece of paper. Tell me where you work and your phone number." He was a member of Congress

[Assistant] Oh my goodness!

[User] Yeah, I got good relations with him later: very nice guy. He gave up. He said this job wasn't worth it. He said he had a big family. He was from Des Moines. But he was a very dedicated guy. He really worked hard. He said, "This job isn't worth it." He gave up. Side item, unrelated to

[Assistant] No, these all adds to everything. I have asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything I have left out? Is there anything you want to add to this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, I think I wasn't easy on the students though. I demanded that they come exactly on time. I don't know why. Laughter

In fact I reamed one at the first session. I says, "I start m classes on time, so he apologized. And I said, "Well here is a piece of paper. Tell me where you work and your phone number." He was a member of Congress

[Assistant] Oh my goodness!

[User] Yeah, I got good relations with him later: very nice guy. He gave up. He said this job wasn't worth it. He said he had a big family. He was from Des Moines. But he was a very dedicated guy. He really worked hard. He said, "This job isn't worth it." He gave up. Side item, unrelated to

[Assistant] No, these all adds to everything. I have asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything I have left out? Is there anything you want to add to this?

[User] I already talked too much.

[Assistant] No you haven't. You haven't talked enough. We can't thank you enough.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I got good relations with him later: very nice guy. He gave up. He said this job wasn't worth it. He said he had a big family. He was from Des Moines. But he was a very dedicated guy. He really worked hard. He said, "This job isn't worth it." He gave up. Side item, unrelated to

[Assistant] No, these all adds to everything. I have asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything I have left out? Is there anything you want to add to this?

[User] I already talked too much.

[Assistant] No you haven't. You haven't talked enough. We can't thank you enough.

[User] Now okay.

[Assistant] Letting us talk about your career. Thank you so much again. You have enhanced the collection with your stories. It's been a pleasure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I already talked too much.

[Assistant] No you haven't. You haven't talked enough. We can't thank you enough.

[User] Now okay.

[Assistant] Letting us talk about your career. Thank you so much again. You have enhanced the collection with your stories. It's been a pleasure.

[User] Some people are not going to like it.

[Assistant] That's okay, that's alright.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had given it no thought. I was doing the LM Apollo activities and was approached with this as something that needed to be done, and was asked to go do that. So, no, it wasn’t anything that I had thought about at all. But then once I got over there, it was very interesting. The complement of experiments covered the broad range of food and nutrition, bloodwork, weight gain and loss, stress on the cardiovascular system. There was a lower-body negative-pressure experiment that stressed the heart, and there was a thing called a vector cardiogram, which monitored heart activity, vestibular functions, sleep functions. So it was an array of very interesting kinds of experiments.\n\n The crew did weigh themselves and the samples that they were preserving by—you can’t weigh yourself in zero gravity, but they had an oscillating chair. There’s a relationship between mass and period of an oscillation, so they’d get themselves in this chair and it would oscillate, and they could end up, in effect, weighing themselves. So they had a chair for themselves and then they had a smaller one for weighing samples.

[Assistant] When the first Skylab launched and they had the problem with the shield and then there was a concern because it was heating up and with the experiments and that sort of thing, can you talk about that and how that was dealt with as far as from the experimental side?

[User] There was a lot of concern, and there wasn’t anything anybody could really do other than get the shield up, but based on the temperatures and the analysis in terms of what would be affected or not, it was determined that things looked like they were going to be all right. We didn’t have any active part in being able to do anything about that, other than look at the data and see. That was mostly the medical folks, because it was the food that they were really worried about.

[Assistant] With the first crew, were you involved with them and their first mission?

[User] The five teams that were formed, we all supported all three Skylab flights for their durations.

[Assistant] This was the first time, of course, NASA had dealt with true long-duration space flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a lot of concern, and there wasn’t anything anybody could really do other than get the shield up, but based on the temperatures and the analysis in terms of what would be affected or not, it was determined that things looked like they were going to be all right. We didn’t have any active part in being able to do anything about that, other than look at the data and see. That was mostly the medical folks, because it was the food that they were really worried about.

[Assistant] With the first crew, were you involved with them and their first mission?

[User] The five teams that were formed, we all supported all three Skylab flights for their durations.

[Assistant] This was the first time, of course, NASA had dealt with true long-duration space flight.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And the Control Room and the teams had to be formed for that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The five teams that were formed, we all supported all three Skylab flights for their durations.

[Assistant] This was the first time, of course, NASA had dealt with true long-duration space flight.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And the Control Room and the teams had to be formed for that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about the difference between Apollo and Skylab and how things were set up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I’ve already covered that, in that the medical aspects of what was going on with the crew was separate, and we only were affected by that in terms of what the crew could or could not do each day and what that meant in terms of what experiments needed to be scheduled and how the following day.

[Assistant] As far as what was learned from Skylab and what you dealt with specifically, is there anything specific you feel was a significant accomplishment with what you dealt with, the experiments?

[User] All of that data was a brand-new learning experience for the PIs [Principle Investigators]. They seemed to be extremely happy with the kind of data they were getting in the samples that came back. It taught them all kinds of new things about bone loss and vestibular function and how the body reacts to zero-G. I’m not a medical experimenter, so I didn’t have as much of an appreciation for all that as they did, but we did our job in terms of getting them that data, and they were just very happy with what they got. It established a database that I think has become very important in terms of long-duration space flight. Of course, the equipment’s gotten better and there’s a lot more technology involved, but this was a great start for them.

[Assistant] Do you have any other thoughts or memories about Skylab that you’d like to share?

[User] I don’t think so. It was a long, long time of a lot of Control Center operations, but I think back on it as being a pleasant experience from a standpoint of being able to do Control Center operations and being able to get that done. I enjoyed that.

[Assistant] At what point did you transition to Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I did not go to any of the launches. For the early flights, we were doing this analytical kind of work. We weren’t really in the mainstream of getting launches put together. In fact, over my career, I was actually down there for one launch. I didn’t go to launches, tended not to go.

[Assistant] When you were working on the ALT [Approach and Landing Test] program, did you see any of that?

[User] No, I sure didn’t.

[Assistant] Anything else on those early flights pre-\n\n Challenger\n\n [accident] you’d like to talk about, or anything else you did?

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about\n\n Challenger\n\n and how that affected what you were doing? Of course, obviously it stopped the flights for a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say two things. One of them was Apollo 13 and the whole activity associated with that flight recovery, and the other thing would be the\n\n Columbia\n\n accident aftermath and the data and record handling working group responsibility getting that on one day and having to have all those policies and people working in some kind of concert. That was a challenge. After having done that intense work for several months and then less intense but ongoing for more months, is part of what, I figured out later on, helped to create that sense of weariness. But that was an enormous challenge, that one. So I think those two things are what stand out.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, I’m going to see if Rebecca and Jennifer have any questions.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] I have one, and it’s about\n\n Columbia\n\n . I guess it’s a two-part. Did you have any input from the Legal office here at the Center or from NASA Headquarters that told you or to help you guide on what to do with the data that you were collecting? And, was there a lot of data coming in from the field, from the recovery efforts, that you were having to deal with as well?

[User] Last question first. The debris data from the Mishap Response Team out in the field, that was not part of the working group. That, by and large, went directly to KSC, and that was under the control of another group of folks. So I did not do debris. And with respect to the Legal Office, yes, indeed. The Legal Office was one of the offices that I consulted with in terms of the data, government obligations with respect to that data, the repository, function and obligations with respect to that. So, yes, Legal was involved.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that maybe you want to mention before we go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was all Outward Bound, had nothing to do with cooperatives. You know, it was hiking, rappelling off a dam, and learning some Spanish and just stretching your physical balance and what you could do. And then we went to Milwaukee for three months. That was where we went for our country training and that was OK. We stayed in sort of a building that looked like sort of modeled after the U.N. and there was more classroom stuff and this was kind of boring at times.

[Assistant] Did you learn Spanish?

[User] I picked up a little more of the Spanish. I was better than most because I had an exposure to Spanish, so I knew the basic rudiments of it and I could speak a little of it. But I wouldn't, you know, I mean, it wasn't until I got to Colombia I was able to speak Spanish and I can. Well, let me digress for a second. I got so, you know, you try to learn a language, you learn the grammar and then you learn little phrases here and there. And when I got to Colombia, I was still trying to learn stuff and I was in one site, Manizales. This other guy, Archie, was at another site down the road. And so Archie, when Archie spoke, he mumbled, and you could barely understand half of what he said in English.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And when he started to speak Spanish, people understood about half of what he said. And then it occurred to me, here I was, because at one point I remember talking to some peasant guy pulling a cart full of stuff in my best Spanish, and he seemed to not understand what I was saying. So then I thought, well, why don't I just speak faster and mumble a little? And maybe that'll be better. So that was what I did. I started speaking faster and not worrying about how it was coming out. And it was like I went to a different realm of Spanish and became much. By the time, you know, I became fairly fluent. And so I always benefited from Archie's counseling.

[Assistant] Well, you were just using the language as opposed to studying.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I picked up a little more of the Spanish. I was better than most because I had an exposure to Spanish, so I knew the basic rudiments of it and I could speak a little of it. But I wouldn't, you know, I mean, it wasn't until I got to Colombia I was able to speak Spanish and I can. Well, let me digress for a second. I got so, you know, you try to learn a language, you learn the grammar and then you learn little phrases here and there. And when I got to Colombia, I was still trying to learn stuff and I was in one site, Manizales. This other guy, Archie, was at another site down the road. And so Archie, when Archie spoke, he mumbled, and you could barely understand half of what he said in English.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And when he started to speak Spanish, people understood about half of what he said. And then it occurred to me, here I was, because at one point I remember talking to some peasant guy pulling a cart full of stuff in my best Spanish, and he seemed to not understand what I was saying. So then I thought, well, why don't I just speak faster and mumble a little? And maybe that'll be better. So that was what I did. I started speaking faster and not worrying about how it was coming out. And it was like I went to a different realm of Spanish and became much. By the time, you know, I became fairly fluent. And so I always benefited from Archie's counseling.

[Assistant] Well, you were just using the language as opposed to studying.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] And is Colombian Spanish fast?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when he started to speak Spanish, people understood about half of what he said. And then it occurred to me, here I was, because at one point I remember talking to some peasant guy pulling a cart full of stuff in my best Spanish, and he seemed to not understand what I was saying. So then I thought, well, why don't I just speak faster and mumble a little? And maybe that'll be better. So that was what I did. I started speaking faster and not worrying about how it was coming out. And it was like I went to a different realm of Spanish and became much. By the time, you know, I became fairly fluent. And so I always benefited from Archie's counseling.

[Assistant] Well, you were just using the language as opposed to studying.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] And is Colombian Spanish fast?

[User] No. Well, it depends on where you are in Colombia. And I was, when they sent me to Colombia, I was sent to the coffee country in Manizales and the Colombians think they speak Spanish like from Athens. They're the most sophisticated. And if you talk to anybody else in South America, they have some qualms about it. But in any case, in where I was, they spoke fairly clear Spanish. If you go to the southern part of Colombia, which I was at one point lived in Pasto, they speak a little more singsong. It was the northern part of the Inca empire, and the Spanish is a little higher tone, but not that appreciably different. But if you go to the coast and again, I was transferred to the coast, I had three different sites.

[Assistant] We'll talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] And is Colombian Spanish fast?

[User] No. Well, it depends on where you are in Colombia. And I was, when they sent me to Colombia, I was sent to the coffee country in Manizales and the Colombians think they speak Spanish like from Athens. They're the most sophisticated. And if you talk to anybody else in South America, they have some qualms about it. But in any case, in where I was, they spoke fairly clear Spanish. If you go to the southern part of Colombia, which I was at one point lived in Pasto, they speak a little more singsong. It was the northern part of the Inca empire, and the Spanish is a little higher tone, but not that appreciably different. But if you go to the coast and again, I was transferred to the coast, I had three different sites.

[Assistant] We'll talk about that.

[User] Yeah. And Barranquilla, I was trying to save money because they made me a volunteer leader. So I lived with a family. And when I got there, the mother started talking to me and here I was in the country a year and a half, and I had no idea what she said to me because coastal Spanish is very fast. They don't say the whole word. It's more like Caribbean Spanish, like Cuban Spanish. And so those are the three varieties.

[Assistant] So going back, so you were in Milwaukee and was finished training, you weren't deselected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Bogota. And then they wanted us to get sort of feel our feet into the country. And they had everybody go to a different site near Bogota with some other volunteers from another program. So I went to a town called Choachí with a guy named Bill. I can't remember Bill's last name, but he was in Group II, and at the time I didn't speak that much Spanish. And Bill was from Chicago raising chickens in the backyard, which was okay. And I remember going to the bar with him one night and somebody said that I looked familiar. Some Colombian, like I was a guy from the next village, which sort of blew my mind out, but it seemed like I had a familiar face. And then Bill started telling me how beautiful the mayor's daughters were. And he kept on talking about that. I stayed there for two weeks and, you know, I got sort of interested in what he was saying, and I had this vision about what they might look like and stuff. And then there was a, the mayors had some kind of a coming-out thing and his daughters were there and they were this plump two girls, missing teeth, and they were not very pretty. And then I looked at Bill and then I thought, God.

[Assistant] You've been here too long.

[User] You've been here too long. Is this going to happen to me? I can't believe it. You know, I'm in danger of this, of this, you know, whatever, being acculturated this way. Anyway, so

[Assistant] But were they nice? Did you ever meet them?

[User] No, I never really met them. I just saw them from a not that afar, and I just got frightened about how enthralled he was with the mayor's daughters. And I thought, I don't know, you know, what's going to happen to me? So, but in the long run, I met very Colombian women are really beautiful. So I don't know what happened in Choachí. They certainly were not.

[Assistant] So after the two weeks in Choachí then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. I had Barney's Boystown, you know, something like that. Or maybe a little better than and over time. But wow, it was a fantastic suit. I even have this picture of me with that suit. It's really something else.

[Assistant] So then with your suit, you were able to meet with the owners.

[User] Yes, I was. But I rarely ever used it. I mean, but I, yes, I was equipped now to deal with what was happening. And so I worked with the cafetarios and I worked with some guy and I lived in town. Had an apartment I shared with another volunteer and a Colombian and learned how to give parties and worked hard on this educational program.

[Assistant] And what was the educational? What did you teach them, how to organize?

[User] No, I developed the whole program of, you know, what to teach the campesinos. What about the co-ops, how they function, what are the rights and duties of members, and try to put something together in a fairly rudimentary way or something that people could understand.

[Assistant] Was this a government program, a Colombian government program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was. But I rarely ever used it. I mean, but I, yes, I was equipped now to deal with what was happening. And so I worked with the cafetarios and I worked with some guy and I lived in town. Had an apartment I shared with another volunteer and a Colombian and learned how to give parties and worked hard on this educational program.

[Assistant] And what was the educational? What did you teach them, how to organize?

[User] No, I developed the whole program of, you know, what to teach the campesinos. What about the co-ops, how they function, what are the rights and duties of members, and try to put something together in a fairly rudimentary way or something that people could understand.

[Assistant] Was this a government program, a Colombian government program?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was a Peace Corps idea?