[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None, not any real guidance, no. There was a Public Affairs guy at TRW too. No, they just called and said, “Would you talk to so-and-so?”\n\n “Okay.”

[Assistant] No one said, “Be sure to talk about this great thing”? Was anyone encouraging you to say certain things?

[User] No, the only thing I remember was that at some point I said something about space trash, and they didn’t want me to talk about space trash. I don’t remember what the question was and I don’t remember who it was. Somebody asked me something about hazards up there. I think I said something about the thing that made me the most nervous and was really unaccountable was that we had this trash running around up there and nobody really was tracking every bit of it. They didn’t like to emphasize that there might be real hazards out there.\n\n They changed our name. We weren’t called the abort program anymore because that suggested it might be dangerous. We were initially called abort support. They decided they didn’t like that for PR [public relations] reasons, so we were changed to the return to Earth team.

[Assistant] Sounds a little more positive.

[User] Right, let’s not mention the fact that we might have an engine that blows up on the way to the Moon.

[Assistant] How much time were you spending fielding all these interview requests from reporters at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the only thing I remember was that at some point I said something about space trash, and they didn’t want me to talk about space trash. I don’t remember what the question was and I don’t remember who it was. Somebody asked me something about hazards up there. I think I said something about the thing that made me the most nervous and was really unaccountable was that we had this trash running around up there and nobody really was tracking every bit of it. They didn’t like to emphasize that there might be real hazards out there.\n\n They changed our name. We weren’t called the abort program anymore because that suggested it might be dangerous. We were initially called abort support. They decided they didn’t like that for PR [public relations] reasons, so we were changed to the return to Earth team.

[Assistant] Sounds a little more positive.

[User] Right, let’s not mention the fact that we might have an engine that blows up on the way to the Moon.

[Assistant] How much time were you spending fielding all these interview requests from reporters at the time?

[User] I don’t know. It’s not like it was going on every day but several hours a week.

[Assistant] What were they most interested in other than the fact that here’s a novelty, a cute girl?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, let’s not mention the fact that we might have an engine that blows up on the way to the Moon.

[Assistant] How much time were you spending fielding all these interview requests from reporters at the time?

[User] I don’t know. It’s not like it was going on every day but several hours a week.

[Assistant] What were they most interested in other than the fact that here’s a novelty, a cute girl?

[User] That’s what they were most interested in.

[Assistant] No consistent questions or topics that they asked you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. It’s not like it was going on every day but several hours a week.

[Assistant] What were they most interested in other than the fact that here’s a novelty, a cute girl?

[User] That’s what they were most interested in.

[Assistant] No consistent questions or topics that they asked you?

[User] No, just the sheer amazement that a woman was doing this. It just was strange. I sort of felt like, “I’ve got two arms and two legs. I’m like everybody else down here. What difference does this make that I’m female instead of male.” It was bizarre.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about flight control, because so many people have written about flight control, and how it was sort of like this brotherhood. Here you are, the sole woman. Was there much camaraderie in terms of including you in some of the pranks and antics and after-hours things that guys would do like meeting up at the Flintlock or going out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s what they were most interested in.

[Assistant] No consistent questions or topics that they asked you?

[User] No, just the sheer amazement that a woman was doing this. It just was strange. I sort of felt like, “I’ve got two arms and two legs. I’m like everybody else down here. What difference does this make that I’m female instead of male.” It was bizarre.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about flight control, because so many people have written about flight control, and how it was sort of like this brotherhood. Here you are, the sole woman. Was there much camaraderie in terms of including you in some of the pranks and antics and after-hours things that guys would do like meeting up at the Flintlock or going out?

[User] First of all, we were contractors, so we weren’t part of that. The MOCR itself, I think that’s primarily about the people that are in the MOCR all the time, not really the people that are in the support team. We had our own camaraderie so to speak.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, just the sheer amazement that a woman was doing this. It just was strange. I sort of felt like, “I’ve got two arms and two legs. I’m like everybody else down here. What difference does this make that I’m female instead of male.” It was bizarre.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about flight control, because so many people have written about flight control, and how it was sort of like this brotherhood. Here you are, the sole woman. Was there much camaraderie in terms of including you in some of the pranks and antics and after-hours things that guys would do like meeting up at the Flintlock or going out?

[User] First of all, we were contractors, so we weren’t part of that. The MOCR itself, I think that’s primarily about the people that are in the MOCR all the time, not really the people that are in the support team. We had our own camaraderie so to speak.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?

[User] I’m just saying that we would go—the Singing Wheel was a favorite barbecue joint. We’d go have beer and barbecue occasionally at the Singing Wheel. A lot of the guys that I worked with had sailboats. To me the whole sailing thing was a little strange, but they were very into sailboats. To me it was very strange because I think they really liked to work on the boats more than they liked to actually sail, which I didn’t quite understand. They were always tinkering with these boats; they were hardly ever sailing these boats. Just made no sense to me. Why would you want to? As soon as they had gotten the barnacles off they were doing something else, they were painting it or this or that with the boats. They were never sailing the boats. I just didn’t quite get all that. They loved to tinker with them.

[Assistant] It’s a great place to have a boat, just right off Galveston Bay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First of all, we were contractors, so we weren’t part of that. The MOCR itself, I think that’s primarily about the people that are in the MOCR all the time, not really the people that are in the support team. We had our own camaraderie so to speak.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?

[User] I’m just saying that we would go—the Singing Wheel was a favorite barbecue joint. We’d go have beer and barbecue occasionally at the Singing Wheel. A lot of the guys that I worked with had sailboats. To me the whole sailing thing was a little strange, but they were very into sailboats. To me it was very strange because I think they really liked to work on the boats more than they liked to actually sail, which I didn’t quite understand. They were always tinkering with these boats; they were hardly ever sailing these boats. Just made no sense to me. Why would you want to? As soon as they had gotten the barnacles off they were doing something else, they were painting it or this or that with the boats. They were never sailing the boats. I just didn’t quite get all that. They loved to tinker with them.

[Assistant] It’s a great place to have a boat, just right off Galveston Bay.

[User] Oh yes. Wherever we were going, a lot of times we would have to end up going by the boat. Somebody’d gotten a new boat, or more often they’d gotten an old boat that they were now tinkering with. We were always going off to see the boat, not to sail on the boat, but to see the boat.

[Assistant] Were the guys that you hung out with around your age at that point? Or was it more a variety?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m just saying that we would go—the Singing Wheel was a favorite barbecue joint. We’d go have beer and barbecue occasionally at the Singing Wheel. A lot of the guys that I worked with had sailboats. To me the whole sailing thing was a little strange, but they were very into sailboats. To me it was very strange because I think they really liked to work on the boats more than they liked to actually sail, which I didn’t quite understand. They were always tinkering with these boats; they were hardly ever sailing these boats. Just made no sense to me. Why would you want to? As soon as they had gotten the barnacles off they were doing something else, they were painting it or this or that with the boats. They were never sailing the boats. I just didn’t quite get all that. They loved to tinker with them.

[Assistant] It’s a great place to have a boat, just right off Galveston Bay.

[User] Oh yes. Wherever we were going, a lot of times we would have to end up going by the boat. Somebody’d gotten a new boat, or more often they’d gotten an old boat that they were now tinkering with. We were always going off to see the boat, not to sail on the boat, but to see the boat.

[Assistant] Were the guys that you hung out with around your age at that point? Or was it more a variety?

[User] They were a little older than me. I was younger than most everybody. I was twenty-five, twenty-six.

[Assistant] I think that’s around the age Gene Kranz always talks about, the age of folks in the MOCR. What did you think of working in such a hypermasculine space as the MOCR? Being a feminist and seeing what you saw?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Wherever we were going, a lot of times we would have to end up going by the boat. Somebody’d gotten a new boat, or more often they’d gotten an old boat that they were now tinkering with. We were always going off to see the boat, not to sail on the boat, but to see the boat.

[Assistant] Were the guys that you hung out with around your age at that point? Or was it more a variety?

[User] They were a little older than me. I was younger than most everybody. I was twenty-five, twenty-six.

[Assistant] I think that’s around the age Gene Kranz always talks about, the age of folks in the MOCR. What did you think of working in such a hypermasculine space as the MOCR? Being a feminist and seeing what you saw?

[User] I was the object of a lot of attention, and that was not always comfortable. At the same time I think the Retrofire officers, I had the distinct impression that they were protecting me. I think they decided that I was a useful asset, and they did not want me harassed. So I didn’t experience too much harassment.

[Assistant] Did you experience some? You said “too much.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were a little older than me. I was younger than most everybody. I was twenty-five, twenty-six.

[Assistant] I think that’s around the age Gene Kranz always talks about, the age of folks in the MOCR. What did you think of working in such a hypermasculine space as the MOCR? Being a feminist and seeing what you saw?

[User] I was the object of a lot of attention, and that was not always comfortable. At the same time I think the Retrofire officers, I had the distinct impression that they were protecting me. I think they decided that I was a useful asset, and they did not want me harassed. So I didn’t experience too much harassment.

[Assistant] Did you experience some? You said “too much.”

[User] We had all of these channels. We had these video screens, and then we had headphones. You could turn the dial, and you could listen to all of these communication channels. Throughout the building, they had cameras all over the place.\n\n I remember hearing some chatter. I would hear this chatter occasionally about, “Look on channel whatever.” I was always busy, so I wasn’t looking on channel whatever. I was looking at what I was supposed to be looking at. One day I thought, “I wonder what the hell is on channel whatever?” I turned it on, and it was a camera that was pointed at me. I was on channel whatever.

[Assistant] I guess it was nice to look at you. Nice break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the object of a lot of attention, and that was not always comfortable. At the same time I think the Retrofire officers, I had the distinct impression that they were protecting me. I think they decided that I was a useful asset, and they did not want me harassed. So I didn’t experience too much harassment.

[Assistant] Did you experience some? You said “too much.”

[User] We had all of these channels. We had these video screens, and then we had headphones. You could turn the dial, and you could listen to all of these communication channels. Throughout the building, they had cameras all over the place.\n\n I remember hearing some chatter. I would hear this chatter occasionally about, “Look on channel whatever.” I was always busy, so I wasn’t looking on channel whatever. I was looking at what I was supposed to be looking at. One day I thought, “I wonder what the hell is on channel whatever?” I turned it on, and it was a camera that was pointed at me. I was on channel whatever.

[Assistant] I guess it was nice to look at you. Nice break.

[User] You sit there and you go, “Have I been scratching my butt, picking my nose?” Talk about making you feel self-conscious. You’re sitting there going, “These people have been watching me all this time?” I had no idea that people were watching me like that. That was very off-putting.

[Assistant] Did you ever feel any sort of concern that you were the only woman and if you screwed up maybe in the future there wouldn’t be an opportunity for other women to work in the room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had all of these channels. We had these video screens, and then we had headphones. You could turn the dial, and you could listen to all of these communication channels. Throughout the building, they had cameras all over the place.\n\n I remember hearing some chatter. I would hear this chatter occasionally about, “Look on channel whatever.” I was always busy, so I wasn’t looking on channel whatever. I was looking at what I was supposed to be looking at. One day I thought, “I wonder what the hell is on channel whatever?” I turned it on, and it was a camera that was pointed at me. I was on channel whatever.

[Assistant] I guess it was nice to look at you. Nice break.

[User] You sit there and you go, “Have I been scratching my butt, picking my nose?” Talk about making you feel self-conscious. You’re sitting there going, “These people have been watching me all this time?” I had no idea that people were watching me like that. That was very off-putting.

[Assistant] Did you ever feel any sort of concern that you were the only woman and if you screwed up maybe in the future there wouldn’t be an opportunity for other women to work in the room?

[User] I did feel some of that. I felt like I had to know my stuff. I had to do a good job, that’s part of why I worked so hard. I’ve read about the syndrome too. You have the impostor syndrome.

[Assistant] Yes, I’ve read that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You sit there and you go, “Have I been scratching my butt, picking my nose?” Talk about making you feel self-conscious. You’re sitting there going, “These people have been watching me all this time?” I had no idea that people were watching me like that. That was very off-putting.

[Assistant] Did you ever feel any sort of concern that you were the only woman and if you screwed up maybe in the future there wouldn’t be an opportunity for other women to work in the room?

[User] I did feel some of that. I felt like I had to know my stuff. I had to do a good job, that’s part of why I worked so hard. I’ve read about the syndrome too. You have the impostor syndrome.

[Assistant] Yes, I’ve read that.

[User] I think now that I know more about it, probably everybody over there had a little bit of the impostor syndrome going on in terms of, “Are they going to suddenly discover I don’t know nearly as much as I need to know?” We all probably had some of that going on.

[Assistant] Who were the Retrofire officers that you were working with? You mentioned they were protecting you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did feel some of that. I felt like I had to know my stuff. I had to do a good job, that’s part of why I worked so hard. I’ve read about the syndrome too. You have the impostor syndrome.

[Assistant] Yes, I’ve read that.

[User] I think now that I know more about it, probably everybody over there had a little bit of the impostor syndrome going on in terms of, “Are they going to suddenly discover I don’t know nearly as much as I need to know?” We all probably had some of that going on.

[Assistant] Who were the Retrofire officers that you were working with? You mentioned they were protecting you.

[User] John [S.] Llewellyn, Jerry [C.] Bostick, and I think the third one was [Charles F.] Dieterich.

[Assistant] John Llewellyn is kind of a legend.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think now that I know more about it, probably everybody over there had a little bit of the impostor syndrome going on in terms of, “Are they going to suddenly discover I don’t know nearly as much as I need to know?” We all probably had some of that going on.

[Assistant] Who were the Retrofire officers that you were working with? You mentioned they were protecting you.

[User] John [S.] Llewellyn, Jerry [C.] Bostick, and I think the third one was [Charles F.] Dieterich.

[Assistant] John Llewellyn is kind of a legend.

[User] Notorious.

[Assistant] Yes. Can you talk about him and working with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] John [S.] Llewellyn, Jerry [C.] Bostick, and I think the third one was [Charles F.] Dieterich.

[Assistant] John Llewellyn is kind of a legend.

[User] Notorious.

[Assistant] Yes. Can you talk about him and working with him?

[User] That’s the thing is that he’s the one that you would probably most expect to be giving me trouble, but he was the most protective.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Notorious.

[Assistant] Yes. Can you talk about him and working with him?

[User] That’s the thing is that he’s the one that you would probably most expect to be giving me trouble, but he was the most protective.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was?

[User] As I said, I think he viewed me as an asset. I think he knew that he needed me to help him understand that program. He was sort of a legendary cowboy figure, but I didn’t experience that from him at all. I knew of that reputation, but that was not what I experienced at all from him. He was, as I said, very protective.

[Assistant] You mentioned all this attention that you were given and that it could be off-putting to some of these guys I would think. Did anyone on your team from TRW ever make comments to you about all this attention, all this media, press?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the thing is that he’s the one that you would probably most expect to be giving me trouble, but he was the most protective.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was?

[User] As I said, I think he viewed me as an asset. I think he knew that he needed me to help him understand that program. He was sort of a legendary cowboy figure, but I didn’t experience that from him at all. I knew of that reputation, but that was not what I experienced at all from him. He was, as I said, very protective.

[Assistant] You mentioned all this attention that you were given and that it could be off-putting to some of these guys I would think. Did anyone on your team from TRW ever make comments to you about all this attention, all this media, press?

[User] A little bit. Some people were a little concerned. They were concerned I might be exploited and probably to some extent I was. My feeling was that that was beneficial to women to see a woman in that job.

[Assistant] I understand you also received a bunch of letters from various men. Would you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I said, I think he viewed me as an asset. I think he knew that he needed me to help him understand that program. He was sort of a legendary cowboy figure, but I didn’t experience that from him at all. I knew of that reputation, but that was not what I experienced at all from him. He was, as I said, very protective.

[Assistant] You mentioned all this attention that you were given and that it could be off-putting to some of these guys I would think. Did anyone on your team from TRW ever make comments to you about all this attention, all this media, press?

[User] A little bit. Some people were a little concerned. They were concerned I might be exploited and probably to some extent I was. My feeling was that that was beneficial to women to see a woman in that job.

[Assistant] I understand you also received a bunch of letters from various men. Would you talk about that?

[User] All over the world. I wish I still had them. I had them in a storage unit, and I don’t know what happened. It was not one of these temperature-controlled storage units. I went out to look at it one time, and it had all these bugs in there. It was scary. I disposed of that.\n\n Yes, I had a whole box of letters from people all over the world, a lot of men, proposing marriage. I figured that most of them wanted to marry an American woman so that they could get citizenship. A lot of letters from little girls too, that they didn’t know a woman could do this and were very excited.\n\n Where I live now I think I have the world’s worst post office. I may not. Everybody probably thinks they have the worst post office.

[Assistant]
Sandra thinks she has the worst.

I’ve got [the worst].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit. Some people were a little concerned. They were concerned I might be exploited and probably to some extent I was. My feeling was that that was beneficial to women to see a woman in that job.

[Assistant] I understand you also received a bunch of letters from various men. Would you talk about that?

[User] All over the world. I wish I still had them. I had them in a storage unit, and I don’t know what happened. It was not one of these temperature-controlled storage units. I went out to look at it one time, and it had all these bugs in there. It was scary. I disposed of that.\n\n Yes, I had a whole box of letters from people all over the world, a lot of men, proposing marriage. I figured that most of them wanted to marry an American woman so that they could get citizenship. A lot of letters from little girls too, that they didn’t know a woman could do this and were very excited.\n\n Where I live now I think I have the world’s worst post office. I may not. Everybody probably thinks they have the worst post office.

[Assistant]
Sandra thinks she has the worst.

I’ve got [the worst].

[User] I think I have the worst post office in the world, because letters that are properly addressed to me don’t arrive, and that’s not an infrequent occurrence. I get people calling me up. “Do you not live at?”\n\n “That is my address.”\n\n And yet, I got letters that were addressed to “Poppy, Space Center.” That’s it.

[Assistant] They somehow made it here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All over the world. I wish I still had them. I had them in a storage unit, and I don’t know what happened. It was not one of these temperature-controlled storage units. I went out to look at it one time, and it had all these bugs in there. It was scary. I disposed of that.\n\n Yes, I had a whole box of letters from people all over the world, a lot of men, proposing marriage. I figured that most of them wanted to marry an American woman so that they could get citizenship. A lot of letters from little girls too, that they didn’t know a woman could do this and were very excited.\n\n Where I live now I think I have the world’s worst post office. I may not. Everybody probably thinks they have the worst post office.

[Assistant]
Sandra thinks she has the worst.

I’ve got [the worst].

[User] I think I have the worst post office in the world, because letters that are properly addressed to me don’t arrive, and that’s not an infrequent occurrence. I get people calling me up. “Do you not live at?”\n\n “That is my address.”\n\n And yet, I got letters that were addressed to “Poppy, Space Center.” That’s it.

[Assistant] They somehow made it here.

[User] They arrived at TRW in my mail.

[Assistant] It’s like Santa Claus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I have the worst post office in the world, because letters that are properly addressed to me don’t arrive, and that’s not an infrequent occurrence. I get people calling me up. “Do you not live at?”\n\n “That is my address.”\n\n And yet, I got letters that were addressed to “Poppy, Space Center.” That’s it.

[Assistant] They somehow made it here.

[User] They arrived at TRW in my mail.

[Assistant] It’s like Santa Claus.

[User] I just found it amazing. They didn’t even say USA sometimes, just Space Center.

[Assistant]
That’s how well-known you were. Wow!

That’s amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They arrived at TRW in my mail.

[Assistant] It’s like Santa Claus.

[User] I just found it amazing. They didn’t even say USA sometimes, just Space Center.

[Assistant]
That’s how well-known you were. Wow!

That’s amazing.

[User] At the same time mail with my full address does not show up.

[Assistant] That’s a problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just found it amazing. They didn’t even say USA sometimes, just Space Center.

[Assistant]
That’s how well-known you were. Wow!

That’s amazing.

[User] At the same time mail with my full address does not show up.

[Assistant] That’s a problem.

[User] Bizarre things happen.

[Assistant] TRW decided, I guess you were so well-known, to create an ad that included your photo. What did you think of that when TRW approached you with that idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the same time mail with my full address does not show up.

[Assistant] That’s a problem.

[User] Bizarre things happen.

[Assistant] TRW decided, I guess you were so well-known, to create an ad that included your photo. What did you think of that when TRW approached you with that idea?

[User] I thought it was pretty cool. What they told me was that I was the only employee they had ever featured in an ad and that it had the highest readership of any of their ads that they had ever done. I thought that was cool.

[Assistant] No complaints from you about that idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bizarre things happen.

[Assistant] TRW decided, I guess you were so well-known, to create an ad that included your photo. What did you think of that when TRW approached you with that idea?

[User] I thought it was pretty cool. What they told me was that I was the only employee they had ever featured in an ad and that it had the highest readership of any of their ads that they had ever done. I thought that was cool.

[Assistant] No complaints from you about that idea?

[User] No. I thought it was interesting. They wanted to do that, that’s fine with me. But remember, think of the asset that that meant. Think how hard it would have been to fire me. I had become this women’s rights person who was now beginning to say things that were controversial. I viewed that as insurance.

[Assistant] I noticed that you became active in the women’s strike in Houston while you were still working down here. Would you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought it was pretty cool. What they told me was that I was the only employee they had ever featured in an ad and that it had the highest readership of any of their ads that they had ever done. I thought that was cool.

[Assistant] No complaints from you about that idea?

[User] No. I thought it was interesting. They wanted to do that, that’s fine with me. But remember, think of the asset that that meant. Think how hard it would have been to fire me. I had become this women’s rights person who was now beginning to say things that were controversial. I viewed that as insurance.

[Assistant] I noticed that you became active in the women’s strike in Houston while you were still working down here. Would you talk about that?

[User] I’d been looking for the National Organization for Women. I’d read about the women’s movement. I couldn’t find them. I didn’t have a lot of time to look, but I just called directory information. That was as far as I went.\n\n I saw some newspaper article they were going to be picketing at the Federal Building on August 26th, 1970, and I went, “I know where they’ll be.” I went in to my boss and I said, “I’m not going to be here that day.” I went down to the Federal Building and picketed. It was the first time I’d ever picketed. Next thing I know, I was a member and head of the PR committee.

[Assistant] Did anyone else from the Space Center go with you to picket?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I thought it was interesting. They wanted to do that, that’s fine with me. But remember, think of the asset that that meant. Think how hard it would have been to fire me. I had become this women’s rights person who was now beginning to say things that were controversial. I viewed that as insurance.

[Assistant] I noticed that you became active in the women’s strike in Houston while you were still working down here. Would you talk about that?

[User] I’d been looking for the National Organization for Women. I’d read about the women’s movement. I couldn’t find them. I didn’t have a lot of time to look, but I just called directory information. That was as far as I went.\n\n I saw some newspaper article they were going to be picketing at the Federal Building on August 26th, 1970, and I went, “I know where they’ll be.” I went in to my boss and I said, “I’m not going to be here that day.” I went down to the Federal Building and picketed. It was the first time I’d ever picketed. Next thing I know, I was a member and head of the PR committee.

[Assistant] Did anyone else from the Space Center go with you to picket?

[User] No, just me.

[Assistant] Was feminism a big issue at the Space Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, just me.

[Assistant] Was feminism a big issue at the Space Center?

[User] No, no. I just knew that I knew there was discrimination in the workforce, and I figured if anybody could talk about it, I could. I didn’t have to worry about losing my job. They’d run an ad with my picture. It would be a real embarrassment if they were to fire me for being outspoken about things like that.\n\n It wasn’t that I was attacking them. In many ways I was treated very fairly. The discrimination that I experienced was not so much that I felt like the company was discriminating against me as it was that the culture was discriminating against me. Like this nine, fifty-four thing. That wasn’t TRW’s fault. That was the state’s fault. This thing of underemployment, this was systemic. It was a systemic thing. It was not something that was targeted at me individually. It was a systemic problem.\n\n I worked for a very progressive company. First of all, they promoted me and I got to do all this stuff, which was incredibly unusual in the first place. So I was very advantaged, very privileged, in lots of ways. I also felt like I could probably speak out in ways that other people might not feel so safe speaking out. So I should, and I did.

[Assistant] You continued working. You worked on Apollo 10, 12, and 13. Is there anything that stuck out for you in terms of those missions? Were you doing different things?

[User] Thirteen obviously.

[Assistant] You were down there for the launch and didn’t know what had happened till Jules Bergman got ahold of you, I understand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I just knew that I knew there was discrimination in the workforce, and I figured if anybody could talk about it, I could. I didn’t have to worry about losing my job. They’d run an ad with my picture. It would be a real embarrassment if they were to fire me for being outspoken about things like that.\n\n It wasn’t that I was attacking them. In many ways I was treated very fairly. The discrimination that I experienced was not so much that I felt like the company was discriminating against me as it was that the culture was discriminating against me. Like this nine, fifty-four thing. That wasn’t TRW’s fault. That was the state’s fault. This thing of underemployment, this was systemic. It was a systemic thing. It was not something that was targeted at me individually. It was a systemic problem.\n\n I worked for a very progressive company. First of all, they promoted me and I got to do all this stuff, which was incredibly unusual in the first place. So I was very advantaged, very privileged, in lots of ways. I also felt like I could probably speak out in ways that other people might not feel so safe speaking out. So I should, and I did.

[Assistant] You continued working. You worked on Apollo 10, 12, and 13. Is there anything that stuck out for you in terms of those missions? Were you doing different things?

[User] Thirteen obviously.

[Assistant] You were down there for the launch and didn’t know what had happened till Jules Bergman got ahold of you, I understand.

[User] I was back in Houston by that time.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was back in Houston by that time.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that launch?

[User] It was delayed because one of the crewmembers had measles. I’d gone down there, and I wasn’t sure whether they were going to launch or not. Then they finally did.\n\n It was really incredible to be there at a launch. The thing I most remember about liftoff of the spacecraft, you don’t really have a sense of that when you’re watching the TV, is that you can feel the vibrations. It’s almost like being in a small earthquake. I’m not sure whether the vibrations are coming—it’s like the sound, it’s like your whole body is vibrating as they’re lifting off. Very strange experience. That’s what I remember the most was feeling these vibrations going through your whole body, and the sound that’s coming out from it.\n\n I flew home and sitting at home I see something on the TV. There’s a problem. I get a call from Bergman. I think that was really funny. He had my home number, but the people at the Control Center couldn’t find my number, which I thought was weird. It was sitting there under the glass right there, behind this glass. It was there. All trying to figure out how to reach me. They don’t know how to reach me.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] Bergman calls. “Poppy, how much fuel is it going to take to get home from this?”\n\n “I don’t know, tell me where they are.” He told me where they were and I said, “Well, they’re going to have to fly around the backside of the Moon. Sorry, can’t turn around from there. Got to go the rest of the way. It’s going to cost too much fuel. Try to turn around. You’ll be unstable orbit.”\n\n I thought, “Well, if Bergman is calling me about this maybe I ought to go over there, see what’s going on in the Control Center.”\n\n I walk in. “We’ve been wondering how to get you!”

[Assistant] Did you stay there till splashdown?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember. No, I wouldn’t have been there till splashdown. I would have been an unconscious body if I’d been there till splashdown, because they were still approaching the Moon at that point.\n\n Worked on several approaches to how we were going to deal with the return to Earth. The flight controllers, they wanted to not do the maneuver on the backside of the Moon. They were worried about that. That would have been the most efficient way to do the maneuver but the concern was that they really didn’t know what had gone wrong. Of course they didn’t have much of a clue about that until they did separation right before reentry, and they saw that a big hunk of the back end of the spacecraft was gone. They wanted to do it while they had signal. The maneuver was really done, the return to Earth was done, while they had signal. We had the easy job.

[Assistant] Why would you characterize it as easy?

[User] Return to Earth worked just like it was supposed to work. We had simulated that. We had simulated using the descent engine, done simulations with the ascent engine. We’d done simulations with all those various engines. We were ready to go on all of that. The people that had the ongoing problem were the people dealing with the environmental stuff, with the overheating and the oxygen.

[Assistant] We’re in the midst of restoring the MOCR right now, and one of the guys who was there, Ed [Edward I.] Fendell, often talks about what the MOCR smelled like after 13. What are your memories of that? Did anything stand out?

[User] You talking about the cigar smoke?

[Assistant] Cigar. Body smell. Pizza.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Return to Earth worked just like it was supposed to work. We had simulated that. We had simulated using the descent engine, done simulations with the ascent engine. We’d done simulations with all those various engines. We were ready to go on all of that. The people that had the ongoing problem were the people dealing with the environmental stuff, with the overheating and the oxygen.

[Assistant] We’re in the midst of restoring the MOCR right now, and one of the guys who was there, Ed [Edward I.] Fendell, often talks about what the MOCR smelled like after 13. What are your memories of that? Did anything stand out?

[User] You talking about the cigar smoke?

[Assistant] Cigar. Body smell. Pizza.

[User] I don’t remember. I don’t even know if I even walked in the MOCR during 13. I was back in the SSR. It always smelled like cigar smoke in there. It was not that filthy in the staff support room.

[Assistant] When the crew got back, you actually received the Presidential Medal of Freedom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You talking about the cigar smoke?

[Assistant] Cigar. Body smell. Pizza.

[User] I don’t remember. I don’t even know if I even walked in the MOCR during 13. I was back in the SSR. It always smelled like cigar smoke in there. It was not that filthy in the staff support room.

[Assistant] When the crew got back, you actually received the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

[User] The whole team did.

[Assistant] What did that mean to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember. I don’t even know if I even walked in the MOCR during 13. I was back in the SSR. It always smelled like cigar smoke in there. It was not that filthy in the staff support room.

[Assistant] When the crew got back, you actually received the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

[User] The whole team did.

[Assistant] What did that mean to you?

[User] It came from [President Richard M.] Nixon, so it didn’t mean a lot.

[Assistant] Do you still have it or was it with those letters with the bugs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The whole team did.

[Assistant] What did that mean to you?

[User] It came from [President Richard M.] Nixon, so it didn’t mean a lot.

[Assistant] Do you still have it or was it with those letters with the bugs?

[User] I don’t know where it is. It meant a lot, and it didn’t mean a lot. I had really bad opinions about Nixon. It wasn’t just Nixon; it was that I had pretty keen memories that when Apollo 11 lifted off they were handing out pink slips at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. I felt a little hypocrisy in all of this. At the end we were flying out missions where they were scavenging parts from other spacecraft. It was obvious that once we flew 11 they were going to chop the program tremendously. It wasn’t just about Nixon being Nixon, it was about the whole thing, that they were really dismantling the program.\n\n I had already done some work on going to Mars, real preliminary work for MPAD. I found it very disheartening that we weren’t going to continue to explore space. We were all heroes, but we really weren’t going to continue to explore space. Just the hypocrisy of all that.

[Assistant] Did you start working at all on Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It came from [President Richard M.] Nixon, so it didn’t mean a lot.

[Assistant] Do you still have it or was it with those letters with the bugs?

[User] I don’t know where it is. It meant a lot, and it didn’t mean a lot. I had really bad opinions about Nixon. It wasn’t just Nixon; it was that I had pretty keen memories that when Apollo 11 lifted off they were handing out pink slips at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. I felt a little hypocrisy in all of this. At the end we were flying out missions where they were scavenging parts from other spacecraft. It was obvious that once we flew 11 they were going to chop the program tremendously. It wasn’t just about Nixon being Nixon, it was about the whole thing, that they were really dismantling the program.\n\n I had already done some work on going to Mars, real preliminary work for MPAD. I found it very disheartening that we weren’t going to continue to explore space. We were all heroes, but we really weren’t going to continue to explore space. Just the hypocrisy of all that.

[Assistant] Did you start working at all on Shuttle?

[User] I did a tiny bit of work on Shuttle, I didn’t do much. TRW lost its major contract at NASA. I went out and built better bombs out in California. I hated that. I worked on antiballistic missile defense, just hated it.

[Assistant] I was wondering how you got to California. I had read that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did a tiny bit of work on Shuttle, I didn’t do much. TRW lost its major contract at NASA. I went out and built better bombs out in California. I hated that. I worked on antiballistic missile defense, just hated it.

[Assistant] I was wondering how you got to California. I had read that.

[User] Yes, I went out. As I said I worked on the antiballistic missile weapons system. That was such a disheartening thing as far as I was concerned.\n\n When I was working on the Apollo Program, as scary as it was to think about what you were doing, flying, and what could go wrong, because I really was quite aware of what all could go wrong, you’re working on this thing that you can really hardly wait for it to happen. You want so much for it to happen. You want your work to be used.\n\n Then I went to working on a program where the biggest nightmare for the world would be if they ever used what I was working on. A true nightmare scenario where nobody survives except the roaches or something. It’s just horrible if you think about what really goes on if you have antiballistic missile weapons systems being deployed and shooting nuclear weapons at other nuclear weapons coming in. As I said, you may have a couple human beings, a handful of human beings, down hundreds of feet underneath the Earth that survive. All the zebras are gone and everything else. I am convinced the roaches and the fleas would probably survive. They do seem to have fantastic survival systems. But other than that, what would be left? I didn’t like working on something like that.

[Assistant] But you managed to come back to Houston.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What happened with TRW? Because you were continuing with TRW, were you not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I went out. As I said I worked on the antiballistic missile weapons system. That was such a disheartening thing as far as I was concerned.\n\n When I was working on the Apollo Program, as scary as it was to think about what you were doing, flying, and what could go wrong, because I really was quite aware of what all could go wrong, you’re working on this thing that you can really hardly wait for it to happen. You want so much for it to happen. You want your work to be used.\n\n Then I went to working on a program where the biggest nightmare for the world would be if they ever used what I was working on. A true nightmare scenario where nobody survives except the roaches or something. It’s just horrible if you think about what really goes on if you have antiballistic missile weapons systems being deployed and shooting nuclear weapons at other nuclear weapons coming in. As I said, you may have a couple human beings, a handful of human beings, down hundreds of feet underneath the Earth that survive. All the zebras are gone and everything else. I am convinced the roaches and the fleas would probably survive. They do seem to have fantastic survival systems. But other than that, what would be left? I didn’t like working on something like that.

[Assistant] But you managed to come back to Houston.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What happened with TRW? Because you were continuing with TRW, were you not?

[User] Yes. They had a contract, and I came back. I didn’t actually get to do very much work when I came back because I got loaned to the mayor’s office.

[Assistant] I want to ask about that, because that sounded like such an interesting position to be in, to be working for an aerospace contractor but being the first women’s advocate in the city of Houston. How did that work out with your employer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] What happened with TRW? Because you were continuing with TRW, were you not?

[User] Yes. They had a contract, and I came back. I didn’t actually get to do very much work when I came back because I got loaned to the mayor’s office.

[Assistant] I want to ask about that, because that sounded like such an interesting position to be in, to be working for an aerospace contractor but being the first women’s advocate in the city of Houston. How did that work out with your employer?

[User] They loaned me. The mayor’s office wanted to put me in as the women’s advocate but they didn’t have budget to match my salary, and I was not willing to take a gigantic cut in pay. I don’t believe any woman should take a gigantic cut in pay. TRW said they would fill the gap.

[Assistant] That’s very progressive of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They had a contract, and I came back. I didn’t actually get to do very much work when I came back because I got loaned to the mayor’s office.

[Assistant] I want to ask about that, because that sounded like such an interesting position to be in, to be working for an aerospace contractor but being the first women’s advocate in the city of Houston. How did that work out with your employer?

[User] They loaned me. The mayor’s office wanted to put me in as the women’s advocate but they didn’t have budget to match my salary, and I was not willing to take a gigantic cut in pay. I don’t believe any woman should take a gigantic cut in pay. TRW said they would fill the gap.

[Assistant] That’s very progressive of them.

[User] I thought so, especially since they had had so much cuts to their budget. But they did fill the gap, and I was at the mayor’s office for eighteen months, something like that.

[Assistant] You accomplished quite a bit during that time, hiring of women firefighters and police.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They loaned me. The mayor’s office wanted to put me in as the women’s advocate but they didn’t have budget to match my salary, and I was not willing to take a gigantic cut in pay. I don’t believe any woman should take a gigantic cut in pay. TRW said they would fill the gap.

[Assistant] That’s very progressive of them.

[User] I thought so, especially since they had had so much cuts to their budget. But they did fill the gap, and I was at the mayor’s office for eighteen months, something like that.

[Assistant] You accomplished quite a bit during that time, hiring of women firefighters and police.

[User] I did. Police. Women on patrol. First woman firefighter. Put a lot of women on boards and commissions. We put somebody in to develop the testing on rape kits. They ended up being used as protocols on rape kit testing; I think pretty much ended up being the protocols all over the state, because we were really the first place that really devoted energy to that. Did the first equal pay study that was ever done in the city of Houston to find pay disparities. A real challenging thing to do down there. That was interesting. Again I got to have the experience of having microphones in my mouth a lot.

[Assistant] Who was mayor at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought so, especially since they had had so much cuts to their budget. But they did fill the gap, and I was at the mayor’s office for eighteen months, something like that.

[Assistant] You accomplished quite a bit during that time, hiring of women firefighters and police.

[User] I did. Police. Women on patrol. First woman firefighter. Put a lot of women on boards and commissions. We put somebody in to develop the testing on rape kits. They ended up being used as protocols on rape kit testing; I think pretty much ended up being the protocols all over the state, because we were really the first place that really devoted energy to that. Did the first equal pay study that was ever done in the city of Houston to find pay disparities. A real challenging thing to do down there. That was interesting. Again I got to have the experience of having microphones in my mouth a lot.

[Assistant] Who was mayor at that point?

[User] Hofheinz. Young Fred, not his father, Young [James] Fred.

[Assistant] When I was reading the interview [from the public library] I didn’t realize he was mayor. I thought he was the county judge.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Police. Women on patrol. First woman firefighter. Put a lot of women on boards and commissions. We put somebody in to develop the testing on rape kits. They ended up being used as protocols on rape kit testing; I think pretty much ended up being the protocols all over the state, because we were really the first place that really devoted energy to that. Did the first equal pay study that was ever done in the city of Houston to find pay disparities. A real challenging thing to do down there. That was interesting. Again I got to have the experience of having microphones in my mouth a lot.

[Assistant] Who was mayor at that point?

[User] Hofheinz. Young Fred, not his father, Young [James] Fred.

[Assistant] When I was reading the interview [from the public library] I didn’t realize he was mayor. I thought he was the county judge.

[User] Young Fred. That’s what everybody called him, Young Fred.

[Assistant] You ended up leaving TRW though after a while to go work at Merrill Lynch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hofheinz. Young Fred, not his father, Young [James] Fred.

[Assistant] When I was reading the interview [from the public library] I didn’t realize he was mayor. I thought he was the county judge.

[User] Young Fred. That’s what everybody called him, Young Fred.

[Assistant] You ended up leaving TRW though after a while to go work at Merrill Lynch.

[User] Yes, I worked at Merrill Lynch briefly. Then I worked at another division of TRW. That branch of the company developed software for big power systems. That was fairly interesting, but I really wanted to go to law school. I was paying my way through law school while I was working at TRW. The nice thing about working about computers is they don’t really care what you look like, and they don’t care what time of day it is that you’re working with them. I could go to law school and still do a lot. I was doing software testing mainly and making nice money while going to law school. Took a cut in pay when I became a lawyer. That was a great way to work through law school, have that kind of hour flexibility and a good paycheck.

[Assistant] Looking back, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working in the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Young Fred. That’s what everybody called him, Young Fred.

[Assistant] You ended up leaving TRW though after a while to go work at Merrill Lynch.

[User] Yes, I worked at Merrill Lynch briefly. Then I worked at another division of TRW. That branch of the company developed software for big power systems. That was fairly interesting, but I really wanted to go to law school. I was paying my way through law school while I was working at TRW. The nice thing about working about computers is they don’t really care what you look like, and they don’t care what time of day it is that you’re working with them. I could go to law school and still do a lot. I was doing software testing mainly and making nice money while going to law school. Took a cut in pay when I became a lawyer. That was a great way to work through law school, have that kind of hour flexibility and a good paycheck.

[Assistant] Looking back, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working in the space program?

[User] We never lost a customer. They all came home. Can’t get better than that.

[Assistant] What was your biggest challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I worked at Merrill Lynch briefly. Then I worked at another division of TRW. That branch of the company developed software for big power systems. That was fairly interesting, but I really wanted to go to law school. I was paying my way through law school while I was working at TRW. The nice thing about working about computers is they don’t really care what you look like, and they don’t care what time of day it is that you’re working with them. I could go to law school and still do a lot. I was doing software testing mainly and making nice money while going to law school. Took a cut in pay when I became a lawyer. That was a great way to work through law school, have that kind of hour flexibility and a good paycheck.

[Assistant] Looking back, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working in the space program?

[User] We never lost a customer. They all came home. Can’t get better than that.

[Assistant] What was your biggest challenge?

[User] Getting over the initial hump from being a computress to being a member of the technical staff.

[Assistant]
Kind of a big jump. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask Sandra if she has any questions.

Just about ten minutes. One of the things you mentioned was that the press was so interested in you. Were there any women’s groups or women in the press or anybody that were commenting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We never lost a customer. They all came home. Can’t get better than that.

[Assistant] What was your biggest challenge?

[User] Getting over the initial hump from being a computress to being a member of the technical staff.

[Assistant]
Kind of a big jump. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask Sandra if she has any questions.

Just about ten minutes. One of the things you mentioned was that the press was so interested in you. Were there any women’s groups or women in the press or anybody that were commenting?

[User] The press was dominated by men at the time.

[Assistant] I didn’t know if there were any women’s organizations, early ones, that may have been contacting you at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting over the initial hump from being a computress to being a member of the technical staff.

[Assistant]
Kind of a big jump. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask Sandra if she has any questions.

Just about ten minutes. One of the things you mentioned was that the press was so interested in you. Were there any women’s groups or women in the press or anybody that were commenting?

[User] The press was dominated by men at the time.

[Assistant] I didn’t know if there were any women’s organizations, early ones, that may have been contacting you at that point.

[User] No. In the press at the time, we were just beginning to have a few women become anchors. I’m trying to think. In Houston we didn’t have the first woman anchorperson till I think it would have been Jessica Savitch, and that probably would have been like ’71, ’72, something like that.

[Assistant] I think I remember that. You seemed to have a lot of confidence in your ability early on, which sometimes women at that time period—because I wasn’t really far behind you—sometimes you weren’t always encouraged to go into things like math or science or engineering. I was just wondering if you had any early mentors, like teachers in school early on, or parents, or at college to pursue that math degree.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The press was dominated by men at the time.

[Assistant] I didn’t know if there were any women’s organizations, early ones, that may have been contacting you at that point.

[User] No. In the press at the time, we were just beginning to have a few women become anchors. I’m trying to think. In Houston we didn’t have the first woman anchorperson till I think it would have been Jessica Savitch, and that probably would have been like ’71, ’72, something like that.

[Assistant] I think I remember that. You seemed to have a lot of confidence in your ability early on, which sometimes women at that time period—because I wasn’t really far behind you—sometimes you weren’t always encouraged to go into things like math or science or engineering. I was just wondering if you had any early mentors, like teachers in school early on, or parents, or at college to pursue that math degree.

[User] No, really I think the only thing was I always tested really high on that. When we took aptitude tests I always scored really high on that. I guess I thought I was probably going to go into teaching, because that was the most acceptable thing that was out there for women to do. If you had a college degree you were expected to be a nurse, a teacher, or an executive secretary.

[Assistant] I was going to mention that because we’ve spoken to a lot of the early NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] computers, the women, and most of them that went into math, they either tested well and had somebody that pushed them that direction, but they also had that same feeling that they would be going into teaching. That’s what they thought, they would end up teaching. I thought it was interesting, just wondering if you had that same experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. In the press at the time, we were just beginning to have a few women become anchors. I’m trying to think. In Houston we didn’t have the first woman anchorperson till I think it would have been Jessica Savitch, and that probably would have been like ’71, ’72, something like that.

[Assistant] I think I remember that. You seemed to have a lot of confidence in your ability early on, which sometimes women at that time period—because I wasn’t really far behind you—sometimes you weren’t always encouraged to go into things like math or science or engineering. I was just wondering if you had any early mentors, like teachers in school early on, or parents, or at college to pursue that math degree.

[User] No, really I think the only thing was I always tested really high on that. When we took aptitude tests I always scored really high on that. I guess I thought I was probably going to go into teaching, because that was the most acceptable thing that was out there for women to do. If you had a college degree you were expected to be a nurse, a teacher, or an executive secretary.

[Assistant] I was going to mention that because we’ve spoken to a lot of the early NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] computers, the women, and most of them that went into math, they either tested well and had somebody that pushed them that direction, but they also had that same feeling that they would be going into teaching. That’s what they thought, they would end up teaching. I thought it was interesting, just wondering if you had that same experience.

[User] In that sense I was encouraged to go into teaching. That was the only acceptable thing. “Oh yes, you can study math and be a teacher.”

[Assistant] It’s just an interesting time. That’s mainly what I was going to ask, just about whether you had any encouragement at all, because like I said it was at a time when most people weren’t.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, really I think the only thing was I always tested really high on that. When we took aptitude tests I always scored really high on that. I guess I thought I was probably going to go into teaching, because that was the most acceptable thing that was out there for women to do. If you had a college degree you were expected to be a nurse, a teacher, or an executive secretary.

[Assistant] I was going to mention that because we’ve spoken to a lot of the early NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] computers, the women, and most of them that went into math, they either tested well and had somebody that pushed them that direction, but they also had that same feeling that they would be going into teaching. That’s what they thought, they would end up teaching. I thought it was interesting, just wondering if you had that same experience.

[User] In that sense I was encouraged to go into teaching. That was the only acceptable thing. “Oh yes, you can study math and be a teacher.”

[Assistant] It’s just an interesting time. That’s mainly what I was going to ask, just about whether you had any encouragement at all, because like I said it was at a time when most people weren’t.

[User] I had encouragement at TRW in the sense that I worked for more open-minded people than were generally present in the population. I was super lucky in that. The guy that was head of Houston operations, for example. Looking back on that especially at the time, that he would fight so hard is pretty remarkable.\n\n But his feeling I think to a certain extent was that he had gone out on a limb at that first six-month thing and said he was going to promote me. I think he was really irritated, that having promised something he wasn’t going to not deliver. That was pretty remarkable, I think, that they were that open-minded.

[Assistant] You ended up working in an org that included people like Bill Tindall. I’m trying to think some of the other guys that were there. Anybody else jump out at you that you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In that sense I was encouraged to go into teaching. That was the only acceptable thing. “Oh yes, you can study math and be a teacher.”

[Assistant] It’s just an interesting time. That’s mainly what I was going to ask, just about whether you had any encouragement at all, because like I said it was at a time when most people weren’t.

[User] I had encouragement at TRW in the sense that I worked for more open-minded people than were generally present in the population. I was super lucky in that. The guy that was head of Houston operations, for example. Looking back on that especially at the time, that he would fight so hard is pretty remarkable.\n\n But his feeling I think to a certain extent was that he had gone out on a limb at that first six-month thing and said he was going to promote me. I think he was really irritated, that having promised something he wasn’t going to not deliver. That was pretty remarkable, I think, that they were that open-minded.

[Assistant] You ended up working in an org that included people like Bill Tindall. I’m trying to think some of the other guys that were there. Anybody else jump out at you that you worked with?

[User] The people at MPAD were great. I can’t even remember all their names but they were great.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunity to work closely at all with Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had encouragement at TRW in the sense that I worked for more open-minded people than were generally present in the population. I was super lucky in that. The guy that was head of Houston operations, for example. Looking back on that especially at the time, that he would fight so hard is pretty remarkable.\n\n But his feeling I think to a certain extent was that he had gone out on a limb at that first six-month thing and said he was going to promote me. I think he was really irritated, that having promised something he wasn’t going to not deliver. That was pretty remarkable, I think, that they were that open-minded.

[Assistant] You ended up working in an org that included people like Bill Tindall. I’m trying to think some of the other guys that were there. Anybody else jump out at you that you worked with?

[User] The people at MPAD were great. I can’t even remember all their names but they were great.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunity to work closely at all with Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney?

[User] No. They were the flight controllers in there, but I was really dealing with the Retrofire officers. The MPAD people were the people that we worked with mainly, and I can’t think of the name of the guy that we dealt with over there, but he was very good. I was very lucky, I think.

[Assistant] It’s a great career, great start to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people at MPAD were great. I can’t even remember all their names but they were great.

[Assistant] Did you have any opportunity to work closely at all with Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney?

[User] No. They were the flight controllers in there, but I was really dealing with the Retrofire officers. The MPAD people were the people that we worked with mainly, and I can’t think of the name of the guy that we dealt with over there, but he was very good. I was very lucky, I think.

[Assistant] It’s a great career, great start to it.

[User] Luck all the way. I had an employment opportunity, come down here to talk to somebody, never heard of the company, hadn’t really thought of the space program. My main talent is that given a good situation I will exploit it.

[Assistant] That’s a great talent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They were the flight controllers in there, but I was really dealing with the Retrofire officers. The MPAD people were the people that we worked with mainly, and I can’t think of the name of the guy that we dealt with over there, but he was very good. I was very lucky, I think.

[Assistant] It’s a great career, great start to it.

[User] Luck all the way. I had an employment opportunity, come down here to talk to somebody, never heard of the company, hadn’t really thought of the space program. My main talent is that given a good situation I will exploit it.

[Assistant] That’s a great talent.

[User] That’s my big talent. I do recognize opportunities when I see them. I was lucky. I had the opportunity to exploit some stuff that other people don’t have.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for coming down today. We really appreciate it. We enjoyed it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I spent four years in Ann Arbor, and then in 1985 the curator left. He was kind of the Deputy Director as well. And so I moved to Grand Rapids and based out of Grand Rapids because in Ann Arbor we were pretty well integrated into the university, and we still had some integration issues over in Grand Rapids. And I think everybody felt in the end that it was probably better if I was in Grand Rapids. About a year after I was in Grand Rapids the process of selecting the next Archivist of the United States started bubbling and I was approached by some Reagan people. Actually it was Charles Palm, who was the Associate Director of the Hoover Institution. Charles and I had been friends for a number of years. We kind of came up through the Archives together and then he left the training program and went to the Hoover Institution as the archivist. But he was very close with a lot of the Reagan California group, Shultz, Secretary of State Shultz, Ed Meese—what I call the California group. And they were the ones most concerned about who was going to be that first Archivist named, mainly because of the library, you know. They didn’t want any problems going through Congress with the Presidential Library. I’m giving you a lot inside stuff here.

[Assistant] Oh that’s what we want.

[User] [Laughter].

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] And it was interesting because earlier, I think it was late ’86, early ’87, Ed Meese visited the campus, spoke at the University of Michigan, met with President Ford and me, and—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Just for clarification, you were then meeting with Ford and Reagan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughter].

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] And it was interesting because earlier, I think it was late ’86, early ’87, Ed Meese visited the campus, spoke at the University of Michigan, met with President Ford and me, and—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Just for clarification, you were then meeting with Ford and Reagan?

[User] Ford and Meese.

[Assistant] Ford and Ed Meese.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was interesting because earlier, I think it was late ’86, early ’87, Ed Meese visited the campus, spoke at the University of Michigan, met with President Ford and me, and—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Just for clarification, you were then meeting with Ford and Reagan?

[User] Ford and Meese.

[Assistant] Ford and Ed Meese.

[User] He was the Attorney General at the time. And he was kind of taking the point on a lot of the Presidential Libraries, I mean he is also a great friend of the Archives. Bob Warner and he had also had a good relationship. And you know, and in all fairness, I would say Bob was kind of a mentor to me. I had of course, during that time, turned him down for a couple of positions in the Archives, including the after the death of an archivist [laughter] at one point. And—

[Assistant] [Interposing] When was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ford and Meese.

[Assistant] Ford and Ed Meese.

[User] He was the Attorney General at the time. And he was kind of taking the point on a lot of the Presidential Libraries, I mean he is also a great friend of the Archives. Bob Warner and he had also had a good relationship. And you know, and in all fairness, I would say Bob was kind of a mentor to me. I had of course, during that time, turned him down for a couple of positions in the Archives, including the after the death of an archivist [laughter] at one point. And—

[Assistant] [Interposing] When was that?

[User] ’85.

[Assistant] Okay, so we haven’t gotten there yet really.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was really the leadership of Bob Warner. Bob really was the driving force in independence. The independence issue was all over Watergate. And GSA’s handling the tapes. There was a large cry from the historical agencies and organizations for independence. Bob built on that, and developed a lot of congressional inroads there, and GSA was kind of their own worst enemy on a lot of these issues. It’s interesting to note that the National Archives is the only independent agency created by the Reagan administration. I was of course out in Grand Rapids so I wasn’t intimately involved, although Bob kept me well informed on what was going on. And part of the agreement he came up with and the deal he made was that he would step down as Archivist once independence was achieved.

[Assistant] How exactly did that deal work? Was that his official deal or—

[User] [Interposing] He cut that deal, yeah. And part of it being, you know, Bob is perceived by a lot that current Reagan administration as being more of a Democrat than a Republican, although it really didn’t come into play all that much. I think Bob really wanted to step down too. He kind of took this on as a challenge. And he wanted to go back the University of Michigan. That was his love. And so that was playing into it. Independence was 1985, and then when he stepped down, Frank Burke became Acting Archivist. Frank’s still living isn’t he?

[Assistant]
Yes.

So you were almost in DC at this point. How did you come to DC?

[User] That’s in 1986, the movement began in earnest for the appointment of a new Archivist, the first Presidentially-appointed archivist. Now the legislation was very tricky and cumbersome at the time, because the Senate really wanted a term, and most of the organizations wanted a term. The House wouldn’t accept a term. And so it was supposed to be more like a judgeship, more like the FBI Director, you know, that it would be a 10 year term or something that—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Can you speak to the conversation about whether it should be a term, like why did the House have that opinion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Philip Morris the cigarette company, but it wasn’t the cigarette company. It was Kraft Foods. But everybody focused of the cigarettes. And I was really ahead of my time, and believed strongly in public-private partnerships, that in order to accomplish anything we couldn’t rely on appropriations alone, that we needed to build some partnerships. Well they approached me on this idea and they wanted to take a copy of the Bill of Rights out to the American people and make it available to every classroom. And we reached millions of children with it. We reached millions of schools. And there was this whole public exhibit that traveled around the country. And hundreds of thousands of people visited during the Bill of Rights centennial. And we took $500,000.00 in order to do it, and they paid for all of it. Now we ended up not using any of our copies of the Bill of Rights. We used the Virginia copy, because they supported this. So the Virginia State allowed their copy to be used, but we authorized the program going into schools. I think it was a great program. I’m still proud of it, even though I got criticized strongly in Congress—

[Assistant] [Interposing] And what was Congress’ opposition to the traveling Bill of Rights?

[User] That I took money from Philip Morris.

[Assistant] Did this play into your decision to want to have a Foundation for the National Archives?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was your role in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very low key, in my office with about six people there. And we didn’t even take a photograph. Did we?

[Assistant] We finally found a couple in—

[User] [Interposing] Oh did you?

[Assistant] —in your papers at the Bush Library.

[User] They were down there.

[Assistant] We found some, yeah. We found a couple.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Oh did you?

[Assistant] —in your papers at the Bush Library.

[User] They were down there.

[Assistant] We found some, yeah. We found a couple.

[User] Well thank goodness. I remember that I kept, I’m going to have to write them because I don’t have them.

[Assistant] To what extent—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were down there.

[Assistant] We found some, yeah. We found a couple.

[User] Well thank goodness. I remember that I kept, I’m going to have to write them because I don’t have them.

[Assistant] To what extent—

[User] [Interposing] I kept them in my papers—I’ll be darned.

[Assistant] To what did you receive criticism after you signed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well thank goodness. I remember that I kept, I’m going to have to write them because I don’t have them.

[Assistant] To what extent—

[User] [Interposing] I kept them in my papers—I’ll be darned.

[Assistant] To what did you receive criticism after you signed?

[User] Not much, I had a lot of people come out and say that’s the right thing, Constitution scholars, that’s the right thing to do. And it kind of died then. And in Congress they said it is part of the Constitution now. And so it became a non-issue. Tom Foley kind of backed off completely. Senator Byrd probably always held it against me. But he was already senile. I don’t know if I should have said that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just sort of a side question, what was Senator Byrd like? Dealing with him? Obviously a controversial figure for a very long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] I kept them in my papers—I’ll be darned.

[Assistant] To what did you receive criticism after you signed?

[User] Not much, I had a lot of people come out and say that’s the right thing, Constitution scholars, that’s the right thing to do. And it kind of died then. And in Congress they said it is part of the Constitution now. And so it became a non-issue. Tom Foley kind of backed off completely. Senator Byrd probably always held it against me. But he was already senile. I don’t know if I should have said that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just sort of a side question, what was Senator Byrd like? Dealing with him? Obviously a controversial figure for a very long time.

[User] Well he was pontificating, arrogant, self-anointed scholar of the Constitution. But a powerful force to be reckoned with in the Senate because he’d been there for so long. And, you could, probably better to ask the FBI, or CIA, or somebody like that who has satellite agencies in West Virginia that question. I didn’t have that many problems with him other than that.

[Assistant] I was just curious. Thank you. But—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not much, I had a lot of people come out and say that’s the right thing, Constitution scholars, that’s the right thing to do. And it kind of died then. And in Congress they said it is part of the Constitution now. And so it became a non-issue. Tom Foley kind of backed off completely. Senator Byrd probably always held it against me. But he was already senile. I don’t know if I should have said that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just sort of a side question, what was Senator Byrd like? Dealing with him? Obviously a controversial figure for a very long time.

[User] Well he was pontificating, arrogant, self-anointed scholar of the Constitution. But a powerful force to be reckoned with in the Senate because he’d been there for so long. And, you could, probably better to ask the FBI, or CIA, or somebody like that who has satellite agencies in West Virginia that question. I didn’t have that many problems with him other than that.

[Assistant] I was just curious. Thank you. But—

[User] [Interposing] I had far, a far more controversial person in my mind was Senator Ted Stevens. That’s why we have the Alaska Record Center. And that was, you know, we weren’t particularly in favor of that. But that was pretty much imposed.

[Assistant] That’s closed now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well he was pontificating, arrogant, self-anointed scholar of the Constitution. But a powerful force to be reckoned with in the Senate because he’d been there for so long. And, you could, probably better to ask the FBI, or CIA, or somebody like that who has satellite agencies in West Virginia that question. I didn’t have that many problems with him other than that.

[Assistant] I was just curious. Thank you. But—

[User] [Interposing] I had far, a far more controversial person in my mind was Senator Ted Stevens. That’s why we have the Alaska Record Center. And that was, you know, we weren’t particularly in favor of that. But that was pretty much imposed.

[Assistant] That’s closed now.

[User] Is it closed now?

[Assistant] It got closed this last year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] I had far, a far more controversial person in my mind was Senator Ted Stevens. That’s why we have the Alaska Record Center. And that was, you know, we weren’t particularly in favor of that. But that was pretty much imposed.

[Assistant] That’s closed now.

[User] Is it closed now?

[Assistant] It got closed this last year.

[User] Yeah, and I figured, I could understand the rationale, but because people traveling would have to go to Seattle to do anything. But it was tough to manage, and it was tough to open up. And we had to scrape some budget money out to do it, and it was pretty small, even in its prime. We opened another one in Western New York. Again, a congressional mandate, and another proud thing, one of the proudest things I think I can say of my administration was I had no schedule C’s. There were no political appointees in the National Archives, except me.

[Assistant] Going back to the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is it closed now?

[Assistant] It got closed this last year.

[User] Yeah, and I figured, I could understand the rationale, but because people traveling would have to go to Seattle to do anything. But it was tough to manage, and it was tough to open up. And we had to scrape some budget money out to do it, and it was pretty small, even in its prime. We opened another one in Western New York. Again, a congressional mandate, and another proud thing, one of the proudest things I think I can say of my administration was I had no schedule C’s. There were no political appointees in the National Archives, except me.

[Assistant] Going back to the—

[User] [Interposing] That didn’t last. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Going back to the amendment for a second, did you consult with the President of the United States at all? Was there any—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it’s a heck of a burden to carry and the number of records, pages of records has probably quadrupled since I left office. So it’s a horrendous task and I wouldn’t criticize, or I wouldn’t second guess any of my successors because they have to deal with a whole set of problems I never dealt with. But I’m very proud of my association with the National Archives. I spent 20 years with the National Archives, and it was very fortunate that even kind of forced out, I can retire [laughter] glad 20 years early. And I was a Presidential appointee.

[Assistant] [Interposing] Thank you so much for your time.

[User] You’re welcome.

[Assistant] And anything else you want to add?

[User] Not right now, we’ll probably talk more over lunch.

[Assistant]
Yes.

Sounds great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They make jokes about rocket science for a reason.

[Assistant] That’s pretty interesting, thanks for sharing that. When they were talking about their launch sites, did you travel to Australia? Were you traveling with them to check out things?

[User] Never got to Australia. That was something I really was looking forward to doing. They invited me a couple times, but they weren’t to a point where we really felt that it was clear that yes they’re going to go do this and NASA needs to go over sees to see what was happening. Had they gotten to a point where they had put the financing together, I would have gotten to Australia. I envision we would have helped talk with them about how they were laying out their infrastructure there. On a consultant basis really, because it would have been their infrastructure and their stuff, but we would have certainly given them our opinions as to what we think works and what doesn’t work. I looked forward to doing that but I never got the opportunity.

[Assistant] You mentioned that they were down in Michoud. Were you down there as well?

[User] I went to Michoud several times, yes.

[Assistant] Earlier you mentioned they would ask you sometimes for guidance, and you had to decide at what point you pull back. Did they offer you some input on how better to manage what you were doing, in the sense of “it would be helpful if you could do such and such” to move them closer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s a really big, challenging piece as to how to sort that all out. It’s been exciting and been very interesting at various times. But it’s a big political issue, and it’s every kind of politics you can come up with: state, federal, local, NASA internal.

[Assistant]
Well, that’s about all I had.

Before we come back and talk to you more about your experience as a project executive with Orbital, do you have any final thoughts you’d like to mention for today’s session?

[User] Back to the challenges realm, being involved with RpK, trying to figure out the financial piece and putting that together was certainly the challenge that ultimately tripped them up. From the personal side, it was very interesting watching that. I feel like I came away from that with some experience base that was unique within the Agency. I don’t know of anybody else that’s been involved or seen somebody try to pull together $500 million independently financed on Wall Street. I ended up doing only one trip to Madison Avenue, but that’s not something NASA is ever going to probably get involved with again, where people are going to have an opportunity to go with a NASA badge and have meetings on Madison Avenue with an investment bank. That was an interesting process. I’m glad I took my attorney with me.

[Assistant] Your personal attorney or a NASA attorney?

[User] No, it was a NASA attorney. That was a very interesting challenge to keep us on the straight and narrow. We took our attorney with us because we were very concerned with where we were going and the type of business aspects that we were getting involved with. Our involvement was really as a consultant, but I think the investment community wanted NASA to say, “We endorse this, and we plan to buy this.” We couldn’t. All we could say was, “We think this is good. We’ve put money into it, let’s see if we can demonstrate this.” We needed our attorney to keep making sure that we didn’t say, “NASA commits to buying the next round.”

[Assistant] Was that attorney Amy [V.] Xenofos, or did you have someone else with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. I always loved math, and I had a really outstanding teacher in high school that made me even more interested. My father also was interested in math. My mother was an English teacher and both of my sisters were English teachers, but my father, who didn't go to college, was always pushing me a little bit toward math and he had more interest in that, and I did, too, than in English. I liked English grammar, but I didn't care for the literature part that went along with it.

[Assistant] That must have been a good combination, because grammar is so structured and math is so structured. Did that help you as you went through, trying to explain your data to people?

[User] I imagine that it did. I can't really think of a way it did, but I should think that a structured-type thing would help.

[Assistant] During those years at Langley, and I know you've mentioned that it was such a long time ago, but that was quite a bustling place back in those first years, and you might have been able to make a career there, but you met your husband. You didn't go into details of how you two met. Would you like to share with us?

[User]
This was right after the war years and we met at the USO [United Service Organizations] at Fort Monroe [Army Base]. That's right outside of Langley.

At the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association].

The YMCA. Okay, yes, that's what it was. I had gone there with some of my girlfriends to a dance and some of the military people were there and I met him there.

[Assistant] And this, of course, was a still young age, wasn't it, because you hadn't been out of college very long.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I imagine that it did. I can't really think of a way it did, but I should think that a structured-type thing would help.

[Assistant] During those years at Langley, and I know you've mentioned that it was such a long time ago, but that was quite a bustling place back in those first years, and you might have been able to make a career there, but you met your husband. You didn't go into details of how you two met. Would you like to share with us?

[User]
This was right after the war years and we met at the USO [United Service Organizations] at Fort Monroe [Army Base]. That's right outside of Langley.

At the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association].

The YMCA. Okay, yes, that's what it was. I had gone there with some of my girlfriends to a dance and some of the military people were there and I met him there.

[Assistant] And this, of course, was a still young age, wasn't it, because you hadn't been out of college very long.

[User] I was just out of college, twenty-two.

[Assistant] That's still young. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
This was right after the war years and we met at the USO [United Service Organizations] at Fort Monroe [Army Base]. That's right outside of Langley.

At the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association].

The YMCA. Okay, yes, that's what it was. I had gone there with some of my girlfriends to a dance and some of the military people were there and I met him there.

[Assistant] And this, of course, was a still young age, wasn't it, because you hadn't been out of college very long.

[User] I was just out of college, twenty-two.

[Assistant] That's still young. [Laughter]

[User] It seems like it now.

[Assistant] And then to pack up and leave that area and to come so far away, did you see it as a sense of adventure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I wish I could, but actually, the job that I had was pretty much a desk job. It was a lot of data and I worked with some interesting engineers on it, but now, looking back, seems like I did the same thing on all of them. We had engineers who actually analyzed the data and wrote reports and we helped them, and I've edited some reports that were written.\n\n But I really enjoyed the work. It was fun and everybody worked together well. I don't remember being frustrated or disappointed in any way. A lot of people don't like this part of California because it is hot, but I basically have been happy everywhere I've lived. I just adjust to whatever is there, so I don't remember ever being really upset or disappointed with the conditions. It was just interesting.

[Assistant] Was there a project that you found that challenged you more, even in your Air Force days when you were moved over in the supervisory area?

[User]
Well, actually, the project that I felt the closest to was the AFTI F-16, the GD part of it. I really enjoyed that and had a lot of responsibility of my own, and I enjoyed that more than just data-handling.

Can I mention something?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User]
I just want to say one thing she hasn't mentioned, was she also, while she was on the AFTI program, got pretty heavily involved in SR-71 work, too. I think she forgot to write that down.

I [worked on SR-71 while employed with the Air Force, not General Dynamics]. That was the AFTI program.

[Assistant] Would you like to talk to us about this while we're on that subject?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, actually, the project that I felt the closest to was the AFTI F-16, the GD part of it. I really enjoyed that and had a lot of responsibility of my own, and I enjoyed that more than just data-handling.

Can I mention something?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User]
I just want to say one thing she hasn't mentioned, was she also, while she was on the AFTI program, got pretty heavily involved in SR-71 work, too. I think she forgot to write that down.

I [worked on SR-71 while employed with the Air Force, not General Dynamics]. That was the AFTI program.

[Assistant] Would you like to talk to us about this while we're on that subject?

[User] I can't, really. I would like to.

[Assistant] That's one of my questions I was going to ask, is that I have to think that some of the projects you worked on are classified, and are they still?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I just want to say one thing she hasn't mentioned, was she also, while she was on the AFTI program, got pretty heavily involved in SR-71 work, too. I think she forgot to write that down.

I [worked on SR-71 while employed with the Air Force, not General Dynamics]. That was the AFTI program.

[Assistant] Would you like to talk to us about this while we're on that subject?

[User] I can't, really. I would like to.

[Assistant] That's one of my questions I was going to ask, is that I have to think that some of the projects you worked on are classified, and are they still?

[User] Well, probably not. I remember more the people that I worked with, you know, than I do in details. That's why I told my husband when you sent some of the information and some of these people had talked about big responsibilities they've had and what they've done and I said, "I'm not going to be able to tell that kind of thing." I didn't have that kind of—you know, I didn't go to the Moon and that, but I worked closely with Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford and he went.\n\n One of the biggest thrills in my dad's life, I think, Tom was the director at the Air Force here for a while after his trip to the Moon and all that. I called him when my dad came out to visit and I asked him if I could bring my dad up to headquarters and meet him. He said, "Sure," so we went up there and my dad was just absolutely thrilled to shake the hand of somebody that had done that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And he's still so involved in the NASA arena as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't, really. I would like to.

[Assistant] That's one of my questions I was going to ask, is that I have to think that some of the projects you worked on are classified, and are they still?

[User] Well, probably not. I remember more the people that I worked with, you know, than I do in details. That's why I told my husband when you sent some of the information and some of these people had talked about big responsibilities they've had and what they've done and I said, "I'm not going to be able to tell that kind of thing." I didn't have that kind of—you know, I didn't go to the Moon and that, but I worked closely with Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford and he went.\n\n One of the biggest thrills in my dad's life, I think, Tom was the director at the Air Force here for a while after his trip to the Moon and all that. I called him when my dad came out to visit and I asked him if I could bring my dad up to headquarters and meet him. He said, "Sure," so we went up there and my dad was just absolutely thrilled to shake the hand of somebody that had done that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And he's still so involved in the NASA arena as well.

[User] He was just a lieutenant when I first knew him at the Air Force, you know, worked on the SR-71. He worked on that—worked with him on that. It's like a history of things we've seen around here to go to the Air Force Museum and take a look at all the airplanes that we've been associated with.

[Assistant] It's such an impact that you've made on so many of those planes, and like you mentioned, too, about the people that you worked with. When you were talking about having your children, and you continued to work, was there a childcare facility, or how did you arrange for that?