[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I came back. Came back to the States. I think that's the time. I got off the airplane in Baltimore airport with my poncho on and a blowgun and a spear.

[Assistant] You must have been a sight.

[User] Well, my mother thought I was.

[Assistant] So then you went back to Quito and you coordinated with the Forestry Service. And did more volunteers then come?

[User] Oh yeah. We had, well, I think actually before I got. Yeah, before I went home and came back, we had worked with the Forest Service to prepare a request for more foresters. And I don't think before that the Forest Service had ever prepared the request. They didn't even know they had to ask for them. But anyway, so we worked with them and they didn't prepare this either, really. But we, you know, we talked with them and got them convinced that they wanted some more. And so they wrote a letter to Peace Corps asking for more. And then the deputy director, Caleb Roehrig, came over and went, hey, how did you get this to happen? And was very happy with it. But anyway, so we did get a request for more volunteers. And one of the guys in my group went up to Montana and worked on their training so that they did get some more specific, some training that was more related to what they were going to be doing.

[Assistant] And then you were a coordinator for that whole group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my mother thought I was.

[Assistant] So then you went back to Quito and you coordinated with the Forestry Service. And did more volunteers then come?

[User] Oh yeah. We had, well, I think actually before I got. Yeah, before I went home and came back, we had worked with the Forest Service to prepare a request for more foresters. And I don't think before that the Forest Service had ever prepared the request. They didn't even know they had to ask for them. But anyway, so we worked with them and they didn't prepare this either, really. But we, you know, we talked with them and got them convinced that they wanted some more. And so they wrote a letter to Peace Corps asking for more. And then the deputy director, Caleb Roehrig, came over and went, hey, how did you get this to happen? And was very happy with it. But anyway, so we did get a request for more volunteers. And one of the guys in my group went up to Montana and worked on their training so that they did get some more specific, some training that was more related to what they were going to be doing.

[Assistant] And then you were a coordinator for that whole group?

[User] Then when they came back, you know, I worked with the Forest Service to select where they were going to be sent. And then would run around visiting them and so forth, trying to usually do it with one of the local foresters from the Forest Service. They would, the Forest Service got some. One day they were saying, hey, we're going somewhere next week. And I said, Oh, you are? They said, no, we are.

[Assistant] That meant you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. We had, well, I think actually before I got. Yeah, before I went home and came back, we had worked with the Forest Service to prepare a request for more foresters. And I don't think before that the Forest Service had ever prepared the request. They didn't even know they had to ask for them. But anyway, so we worked with them and they didn't prepare this either, really. But we, you know, we talked with them and got them convinced that they wanted some more. And so they wrote a letter to Peace Corps asking for more. And then the deputy director, Caleb Roehrig, came over and went, hey, how did you get this to happen? And was very happy with it. But anyway, so we did get a request for more volunteers. And one of the guys in my group went up to Montana and worked on their training so that they did get some more specific, some training that was more related to what they were going to be doing.

[Assistant] And then you were a coordinator for that whole group?

[User] Then when they came back, you know, I worked with the Forest Service to select where they were going to be sent. And then would run around visiting them and so forth, trying to usually do it with one of the local foresters from the Forest Service. They would, the Forest Service got some. One day they were saying, hey, we're going somewhere next week. And I said, Oh, you are? They said, no, we are.

[Assistant] That meant you.

[User] Yeah. And it really made me feel good.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. So you really worked closely with them and then supervised?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then when they came back, you know, I worked with the Forest Service to select where they were going to be sent. And then would run around visiting them and so forth, trying to usually do it with one of the local foresters from the Forest Service. They would, the Forest Service got some. One day they were saying, hey, we're going somewhere next week. And I said, Oh, you are? They said, no, we are.

[Assistant] That meant you.

[User] Yeah. And it really made me feel good.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. So you really worked closely with them and then supervised?

[User] Yeah, they gave me a desk right there in their office.

[Assistant] Excellent. Great. And what happened after you left, where you were replaced with another volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they gave me a desk right there in their office.

[Assistant] Excellent. Great. And what happened after you left, where you were replaced with another volunteer?

[User] Yes, I was.

[Assistant] As coordinator?

[User] Yeah. I had known, I had met him that summer I worked for the Forest Service and he was down here. He was down in the southern end of the country, his wife. He was married. His wife didn't want to move, but I prevailed upon him.

[Assistant] So an American came down who, did he become a volunteer or no? He just came to work with the Forestry Service? The person you met.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was.

[Assistant] As coordinator?

[User] Yeah. I had known, I had met him that summer I worked for the Forest Service and he was down here. He was down in the southern end of the country, his wife. He was married. His wife didn't want to move, but I prevailed upon him.

[Assistant] So an American came down who, did he become a volunteer or no? He just came to work with the Forestry Service? The person you met.

[User] No, he was a volunteer.

[Assistant] He was a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I had known, I had met him that summer I worked for the Forest Service and he was down here. He was down in the southern end of the country, his wife. He was married. His wife didn't want to move, but I prevailed upon him.

[Assistant] So an American came down who, did he become a volunteer or no? He just came to work with the Forestry Service? The person you met.

[User] No, he was a volunteer.

[Assistant] He was a volunteer.

[User] From that group.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he was a volunteer.

[Assistant] He was a volunteer.

[User] From that group.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Yeah.

[User] And he was, you know, he was only in his second year. But so he moved into Quito. And I, at the end of my third year, went up to Montana State and did the forestry training. For yet another group. I don't know, and I don't remember. I don't know how long they kept having foresters after that, but. And we weren't always, always successful as we would have liked to have been getting volunteers to work with the Forest Service when they got there. And I particularly remember one that was came in that group that when I had moved into Quito to be the coordinator, that we sent him down to a town where there was a Peace Corps staff person living there, and he immediately took him and introduced him to someplace else, somebody else. And he hadn't, you know, we hadn't realized you had to convince the Peace Corps staff as well that we needed to have these volunteers working with the Forest Service.

[Assistant] Were they working with non-profits? Was that the conflict, working for government versus non-profits?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From that group.

[Assistant] Oh, I see. Yeah.

[User] And he was, you know, he was only in his second year. But so he moved into Quito. And I, at the end of my third year, went up to Montana State and did the forestry training. For yet another group. I don't know, and I don't remember. I don't know how long they kept having foresters after that, but. And we weren't always, always successful as we would have liked to have been getting volunteers to work with the Forest Service when they got there. And I particularly remember one that was came in that group that when I had moved into Quito to be the coordinator, that we sent him down to a town where there was a Peace Corps staff person living there, and he immediately took him and introduced him to someplace else, somebody else. And he hadn't, you know, we hadn't realized you had to convince the Peace Corps staff as well that we needed to have these volunteers working with the Forest Service.

[Assistant] Were they working with non-profits? Was that the conflict, working for government versus non-profits?

[User] That may have been. I'm not sure what happened with that. When we were up north where I was, it was a nonprofit church organization that a lot of the volunteers were working with.

[Assistant] So what happened then? So you did that and I see that you ended in 1966 and then you became associate Peace Corps director in Paraguay in '73. So what happened in those intervening years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That may have been. I'm not sure what happened with that. When we were up north where I was, it was a nonprofit church organization that a lot of the volunteers were working with.

[Assistant] So what happened then? So you did that and I see that you ended in 1966 and then you became associate Peace Corps director in Paraguay in '73. So what happened in those intervening years?

[User] Well, first, maybe I should mention that the first thing I did when I when I left there was I went to the Peace Corps training thing and my friend Eduardo Sotomayor was there. And Jack Vaughn, who was the Peace Corps director, came to the final graduation ceremony for the volunteers and Eduardo. Well, and you know, and Heifer Project was looking for another staff member. And Eduardo was really pushing me to get the job, so he made it. He was pushing me in front of Jack Vaughn any chance he got. And then later on, I did an interview with Jack Vaughn and he just decided he didn't want to have Heifer Project have any more people.

[Assistant] So he hired you?

[User] No, he didn't. So I went to graduate school, which I had already, you know, I'd already been admitted to do graduate school to study forest ecology.

[Assistant] Did you get a PhD then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he didn't. So I went to graduate school, which I had already, you know, I'd already been admitted to do graduate school to study forest ecology.

[Assistant] Did you get a PhD then?

[User] Not.

[Assistant] Not.

[User] No, I'm an ABD.

[Assistant] But you were in a PhD program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not.

[Assistant] Not.

[User] No, I'm an ABD.

[Assistant] But you were in a PhD program?

[User] I was in a PhD program. I did my dissertation research in Ecuador, and I had my Forest Service people helped me find sites to do it in. And then they would send visitors out there. Well, in fact, I ended up out of Limoncocha because I needed to be in some kind of native forest and they had lots of forest there and also a nice. They built a house for me right beside the runway. And you know, it wasn't a fancy house, but it was a house. And so anyway, and money and food and all that stuff was taken care of. So I could.

[Assistant] And you were then working, who were you? Who was doing that, the Forest Service did all of that for you or who did that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in a PhD program. I did my dissertation research in Ecuador, and I had my Forest Service people helped me find sites to do it in. And then they would send visitors out there. Well, in fact, I ended up out of Limoncocha because I needed to be in some kind of native forest and they had lots of forest there and also a nice. They built a house for me right beside the runway. And you know, it wasn't a fancy house, but it was a house. And so anyway, and money and food and all that stuff was taken care of. So I could.

[Assistant] And you were then working, who were you? Who was doing that, the Forest Service did all of that for you or who did that?

[User] Oh, no, no. I had a grant from, well I had a grant from Duke University and had a grant from who was it? There was some kind of, Ford Foundation. Oh. No, that's what the Duke thing was, from Ford Foundation, and I got a grant from National Science Foundation, that's right. I wrote the proposal and sent it in.

[Assistant] National Science.

[User] Sent it in to them. So I was down there doing a study on soil changes and forest succession associated with shifting agriculture. And I don't know, that probably doesn't mean anything to you.

[Assistant] No, but I'm impressed by, after so many interviews where people have one kind of training, they were sent to do something totally different that here was a forester who was sent to do forestry and knew what he was doing, which is very impressive. That's part of Peace Corps. That's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no. I had a grant from, well I had a grant from Duke University and had a grant from who was it? There was some kind of, Ford Foundation. Oh. No, that's what the Duke thing was, from Ford Foundation, and I got a grant from National Science Foundation, that's right. I wrote the proposal and sent it in.

[Assistant] National Science.

[User] Sent it in to them. So I was down there doing a study on soil changes and forest succession associated with shifting agriculture. And I don't know, that probably doesn't mean anything to you.

[Assistant] No, but I'm impressed by, after so many interviews where people have one kind of training, they were sent to do something totally different that here was a forester who was sent to do forestry and knew what he was doing, which is very impressive. That's part of Peace Corps. That's great.

[User] Yeah. Well, I thought it was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. So just to move it, so then you got your, you went to grad school and then you went back to Ecuador for your dissertation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, I thought it was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. So just to move it, so then you got your, you went to grad school and then you went back to Ecuador for your dissertation.

[User] And that's when I met my wife.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And that was, I was, oh yeah, I had a bunch of old friends from the Forest Service. And none of them had actually completed their degrees because they all had to do a thesis to get a bachelor's degree. And the Minister of Agriculture said if you guys want to continue to receive the pay of a forest engineer, then you're going to have to get your degrees. So a bunch of them came and they asked for help on their statistical analysis of the research they'd done, the model. A couple of them had to translate chapter of a book from English into Spanish. Anyway, a variety of different things a lot of them needed help on to finish that. And a lot of them came to me and asked for help anyway. So when they graduated, and they were, not all guys at the same time, they graduated whenever they finished all their stuff, and they invited me to their big graduation party and they had some big parties for graduations. And that's, I met my wife at one of those parties. She was a secretary at the Ministry of Agriculture, but some other part of the ministry that I don't even know where she worked. But anyway, I met her one of those parties.

[Assistant] And then you stayed or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught, well, I sort of halfway taught one course and it was about, what was it about? Living overseas, working overseas or something like that? And I taught one day and we had everybody read Living Poor and discussed that. There were a bunch of Peace Corps volunteers, plus people who were interested in it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And my professor from Duke had not really done much in the tropics before. He had one thing he was doing in Panama, one research project and one student down there doing it. But I think I really got him interested in the tropics. He came down and visited me a couple times. Ecuador used some of my grant money to do that and then made a lot of friends down there. Oh yeah, that's right. While I was at Duke, I took a course with the Organization of Tropical Studies, which this other friend who lived in Panama later on had taken the year before or a couple of years before. Duke was not a member of the Organization of Tropical Studies at the time, but a couple of their professors were really active in it. And in fact, my Peace Corps friend had really gotten to be good friends with one of the zoology professors at Duke. While I was there anyway, I got my professor to meet with the zoology guy and then there were a couple of botanists. And two years later, Duke was a member of the Organization of Tropical Studies. And you know, I have no idea. Did I have anything to do with it or not?

[Assistant] Sounds like it.

[User] But I always pat myself on the back and say that I did.

[Assistant] So how did you end up being associate director for agriculture in Paraguay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I always pat myself on the back and say that I did.

[Assistant] So how did you end up being associate director for agriculture in Paraguay?

[User] OK, see. While I was, yeah, while I was over at Tennessee, my grant ran out. My professor got me a job at Oak Ridge at the, you know, with the Oak Ridge.

[Assistant] Atomic energy?

[User] Atomic energy place, but they were doing all kinds of ecological research. And so they had me doing some analysis of some work they had done trying to revegetate power lines. And so I spent a summer, I guess, setting up plots and taking data from those. And what was I going to get at?

[Assistant] I was asking how you got to Paraguay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, see. While I was, yeah, while I was over at Tennessee, my grant ran out. My professor got me a job at Oak Ridge at the, you know, with the Oak Ridge.

[Assistant] Atomic energy?

[User] Atomic energy place, but they were doing all kinds of ecological research. And so they had me doing some analysis of some work they had done trying to revegetate power lines. And so I spent a summer, I guess, setting up plots and taking data from those. And what was I going to get at?

[Assistant] I was asking how you got to Paraguay.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Oh, OK. And then that ran out and I worked for a forestry consulting firm for a while. One of the main things we were doing was revegetating strip mines, which was a big waste of money. Because we would plant, spray plant grass seeds on the strip mines and then rains would come and it would all wash down the mountain. But the TVA said, you've got to do this. We did it. And so I was doing that and looking for a job and had sent an application in the Peace Corps, I don't know, January or something of whatever year it was. What was it?

[Assistant] Probably '72. You went to Paraguay in '73.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was either '72 or '73 because I didn't go to Paraguay until late '73. But I didn't hear anything for months and months and months from them. And I was about, I thought I had a job in Panama. And then that fell through because I didn't have my PhD. And then I got a call from Peace Corps. Would you be interested in going to Paraguay? And I found out that they had been, the director told me he'd been, his aggie had left and he'd been looking for, trying to get somebody for eight months. And they didn't have anybody. And then finally somebody found my application in a desk drawer and gave it to him. And he said, well, this guy is not an aggie, I need an aggie, but that's OK.

[Assistant] Close enough.

[User] Yeah. And then by then, Peace Corps programing had changed a lot. They, for the ags, they were still using AB generalists because that's what there was. But they were defining the job much more exactly. In Paraguay they had selected I think it was five crops they were going to have volunteers work with as extensionists doing demonstration plots and so forth. But just those, I don't know whether it was three or five. But anyway. And they had contracted a company called Bosico to do the training, and they were located in Costa Rica, and they were the ones actually that came up. John Guy Smith came up with the idea of doing the programing for AB generalists so that you could actually train them to do something useful. And then so they would help each country that was going to do, get into ag training, help them define their program. And then they trained them in Costa Rica.

[Assistant] So it was a much more specific training?

[User] Much more specific. They grew the crop. And they would have already at the training center started some of the crops. But they would, but the volunteers would plant or the trainees would plant it. But they would also have it in later stages because they had to have them all growing there at the training center.

[Assistant] So they were better prepared.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then by then, Peace Corps programing had changed a lot. They, for the ags, they were still using AB generalists because that's what there was. But they were defining the job much more exactly. In Paraguay they had selected I think it was five crops they were going to have volunteers work with as extensionists doing demonstration plots and so forth. But just those, I don't know whether it was three or five. But anyway. And they had contracted a company called Bosico to do the training, and they were located in Costa Rica, and they were the ones actually that came up. John Guy Smith came up with the idea of doing the programing for AB generalists so that you could actually train them to do something useful. And then so they would help each country that was going to do, get into ag training, help them define their program. And then they trained them in Costa Rica.

[Assistant] So it was a much more specific training?

[User] Much more specific. They grew the crop. And they would have already at the training center started some of the crops. But they would, but the volunteers would plant or the trainees would plant it. But they would also have it in later stages because they had to have them all growing there at the training center.

[Assistant] So they were better prepared.

[User]
Oh yeah, much better prepared.

Now, of course, what it did mean was you didn't have volunteers running around finding their own thing. And I'm never, I mean, some of that was good. And so this took away a lot of that self- initiative kind of stuff because you had a job that was pretty well defined, more like.

[Assistant] So do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Much more specific. They grew the crop. And they would have already at the training center started some of the crops. But they would, but the volunteers would plant or the trainees would plant it. But they would also have it in later stages because they had to have them all growing there at the training center.

[Assistant] So they were better prepared.

[User]
Oh yeah, much better prepared.

Now, of course, what it did mean was you didn't have volunteers running around finding their own thing. And I'm never, I mean, some of that was good. And so this took away a lot of that self- initiative kind of stuff because you had a job that was pretty well defined, more like.

[Assistant] So do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?

[User] I think it was good. We had volunteers that were much more useful to the country, you know, than we did with the kind of training I went through. So that's the way we were doing it, but somewhere along the way, oh that's right, because Peace Corps bid out the training and at some point Bosico lost the contract. And another company got it. And we, at least in part, were wondering, you know, is this going to really mess things up now? And also, I also realized, hey, we've got these trainees that are up in Costa Rica growing these crops on volcanic soils, and then they're coming down here to Paraguay and growing them in other kinds of things. So we need to do in-country training. And that's when we moved to in-country training.

[Assistant] And so the training before was in Costa Rica?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yeah, much better prepared.

Now, of course, what it did mean was you didn't have volunteers running around finding their own thing. And I'm never, I mean, some of that was good. And so this took away a lot of that self- initiative kind of stuff because you had a job that was pretty well defined, more like.

[Assistant] So do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?

[User] I think it was good. We had volunteers that were much more useful to the country, you know, than we did with the kind of training I went through. So that's the way we were doing it, but somewhere along the way, oh that's right, because Peace Corps bid out the training and at some point Bosico lost the contract. And another company got it. And we, at least in part, were wondering, you know, is this going to really mess things up now? And also, I also realized, hey, we've got these trainees that are up in Costa Rica growing these crops on volcanic soils, and then they're coming down here to Paraguay and growing them in other kinds of things. So we need to do in-country training. And that's when we moved to in-country training.

[Assistant] And so the training before was in Costa Rica?

[User] Was in Costa Rica, right. But we moved it to in-country training.

[Assistant] Doing the same kind of thing, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was good. We had volunteers that were much more useful to the country, you know, than we did with the kind of training I went through. So that's the way we were doing it, but somewhere along the way, oh that's right, because Peace Corps bid out the training and at some point Bosico lost the contract. And another company got it. And we, at least in part, were wondering, you know, is this going to really mess things up now? And also, I also realized, hey, we've got these trainees that are up in Costa Rica growing these crops on volcanic soils, and then they're coming down here to Paraguay and growing them in other kinds of things. So we need to do in-country training. And that's when we moved to in-country training.

[Assistant] And so the training before was in Costa Rica?

[User] Was in Costa Rica, right. But we moved it to in-country training.

[Assistant] Doing the same kind of thing, though.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, what was I going to say though? Oh, what they did with me when I was while I was getting ready to go, first they had some Bosico people come talk to me, to tell them about what they were, tell me about what they were doing. And then they sent me to programs that they had been working with in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Costa Rica. Oh, and Nicaragua, that's right. And I spent about a week in each of those countries visiting the volunteers that were working on the programs that Bosico had helped design. And ran around with, you know, ran around with the Peace Corps representatives. So let's see, in Costa Rica, it was a Costa Rican, but I think all the others were Americans.

[Assistant] So Costa Rica, El Salvador. You said Honduras and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was in Costa Rica, right. But we moved it to in-country training.

[Assistant] Doing the same kind of thing, though.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, what was I going to say though? Oh, what they did with me when I was while I was getting ready to go, first they had some Bosico people come talk to me, to tell them about what they were, tell me about what they were doing. And then they sent me to programs that they had been working with in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Costa Rica. Oh, and Nicaragua, that's right. And I spent about a week in each of those countries visiting the volunteers that were working on the programs that Bosico had helped design. And ran around with, you know, ran around with the Peace Corps representatives. So let's see, in Costa Rica, it was a Costa Rican, but I think all the others were Americans.

[Assistant] So Costa Rica, El Salvador. You said Honduras and?

[User] And Guatemala. But they all had programs that were of this type where they had designed them specifically for non-aggies.

[Assistant] And what was it like to be director versus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, what was I going to say though? Oh, what they did with me when I was while I was getting ready to go, first they had some Bosico people come talk to me, to tell them about what they were, tell me about what they were doing. And then they sent me to programs that they had been working with in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Costa Rica. Oh, and Nicaragua, that's right. And I spent about a week in each of those countries visiting the volunteers that were working on the programs that Bosico had helped design. And ran around with, you know, ran around with the Peace Corps representatives. So let's see, in Costa Rica, it was a Costa Rican, but I think all the others were Americans.

[Assistant] So Costa Rica, El Salvador. You said Honduras and?

[User] And Guatemala. But they all had programs that were of this type where they had designed them specifically for non-aggies.

[Assistant] And what was it like to be director versus?

[User] Well, I wasn't.

[Assistant] Associate director as compared to a volunteer or a third- year volunteer? How does your perspective change as a director, as a staff person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Guatemala. But they all had programs that were of this type where they had designed them specifically for non-aggies.

[Assistant] And what was it like to be director versus?

[User] Well, I wasn't.

[Assistant] Associate director as compared to a volunteer or a third- year volunteer? How does your perspective change as a director, as a staff person?

[User] Well, I think I was more likely to lose my patience with volunteers who were not doing what they what we had expected them to do, than I would have ever been as a volunteer, even as the volunteer leader or whatever it was. Particularly a volunteer, I didn't, the fellow volunteers weren't doing things that. Except there was one volunteer that the Forest Service had gotten him a vehicle. He was the only volunteer in the country that had a vehicle from the host government. And then he stopped working for them and they had this vehicle there. Anyway, that was one, that was the only thing I could remember that really got me mad about volunteers when I was a volunteer. But as staff, I probably lost my patience maybe a little bit more often than I should have even.

[Assistant] But you knew the country well by that time when you came. Oh no, Paraguay. Paraguay you didn't know at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I wasn't.

[Assistant] Associate director as compared to a volunteer or a third- year volunteer? How does your perspective change as a director, as a staff person?

[User] Well, I think I was more likely to lose my patience with volunteers who were not doing what they what we had expected them to do, than I would have ever been as a volunteer, even as the volunteer leader or whatever it was. Particularly a volunteer, I didn't, the fellow volunteers weren't doing things that. Except there was one volunteer that the Forest Service had gotten him a vehicle. He was the only volunteer in the country that had a vehicle from the host government. And then he stopped working for them and they had this vehicle there. Anyway, that was one, that was the only thing I could remember that really got me mad about volunteers when I was a volunteer. But as staff, I probably lost my patience maybe a little bit more often than I should have even.

[Assistant] But you knew the country well by that time when you came. Oh no, Paraguay. Paraguay you didn't know at all?

[User] In fact, one of the things that amazed me though there was we had a bunch of home extension volunteers. I was also responsible for the home extension program. We had a bunch of them who were in their fifth year. And as I mentioned before, when I was in Ecuador, the director at the time wouldn't allow us to spend a fourth year. But anyway, we had a bunch that were in the fifth year and I kept thinking, how was it? Ecuador was a beautiful country and Paraguay is interesting, but it's not, it doesn't have anything to compare to Ecuador's mountains and so forth. The people were so friendly with the volunteers. Just loved it there. And we had lots and, well while I was there, we had lots and lots of volunteers who extended for at least a third year and many several of them up to five.

[Assistant] And did you and your family like living there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I was more likely to lose my patience with volunteers who were not doing what they what we had expected them to do, than I would have ever been as a volunteer, even as the volunteer leader or whatever it was. Particularly a volunteer, I didn't, the fellow volunteers weren't doing things that. Except there was one volunteer that the Forest Service had gotten him a vehicle. He was the only volunteer in the country that had a vehicle from the host government. And then he stopped working for them and they had this vehicle there. Anyway, that was one, that was the only thing I could remember that really got me mad about volunteers when I was a volunteer. But as staff, I probably lost my patience maybe a little bit more often than I should have even.

[Assistant] But you knew the country well by that time when you came. Oh no, Paraguay. Paraguay you didn't know at all?

[User] In fact, one of the things that amazed me though there was we had a bunch of home extension volunteers. I was also responsible for the home extension program. We had a bunch of them who were in their fifth year. And as I mentioned before, when I was in Ecuador, the director at the time wouldn't allow us to spend a fourth year. But anyway, we had a bunch that were in the fifth year and I kept thinking, how was it? Ecuador was a beautiful country and Paraguay is interesting, but it's not, it doesn't have anything to compare to Ecuador's mountains and so forth. The people were so friendly with the volunteers. Just loved it there. And we had lots and, well while I was there, we had lots and lots of volunteers who extended for at least a third year and many several of them up to five.

[Assistant] And did you and your family like living there?

[User] I liked it. I guess, well my wife, my wife liked it. She had a maid.

[Assistant] And that was nice. By that time, did you have another child as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, one of the things that amazed me though there was we had a bunch of home extension volunteers. I was also responsible for the home extension program. We had a bunch of them who were in their fifth year. And as I mentioned before, when I was in Ecuador, the director at the time wouldn't allow us to spend a fourth year. But anyway, we had a bunch that were in the fifth year and I kept thinking, how was it? Ecuador was a beautiful country and Paraguay is interesting, but it's not, it doesn't have anything to compare to Ecuador's mountains and so forth. The people were so friendly with the volunteers. Just loved it there. And we had lots and, well while I was there, we had lots and lots of volunteers who extended for at least a third year and many several of them up to five.

[Assistant] And did you and your family like living there?

[User] I liked it. I guess, well my wife, my wife liked it. She had a maid.

[Assistant] And that was nice. By that time, did you have another child as well?

[User] Yeah. Well, our other child was born in Knoxville. And in fact, one of the interesting things, I mean, she was born in Knoxville. She graduated from high school in Ecuador, at the school right next to the hospital where her sister was born, were run by the same people. Oh, not the same, they weren't the same individuals.

[Assistant] So how did she end up in Ecuador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I liked it. I guess, well my wife, my wife liked it. She had a maid.

[Assistant] And that was nice. By that time, did you have another child as well?

[User] Yeah. Well, our other child was born in Knoxville. And in fact, one of the interesting things, I mean, she was born in Knoxville. She graduated from high school in Ecuador, at the school right next to the hospital where her sister was born, were run by the same people. Oh, not the same, they weren't the same individuals.

[Assistant] So how did she end up in Ecuador?

[User] Well, that's AID.

[Assistant] Oh, that's, OK. So you did five years as Peace Corps associate director in Paraguay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, our other child was born in Knoxville. And in fact, one of the interesting things, I mean, she was born in Knoxville. She graduated from high school in Ecuador, at the school right next to the hospital where her sister was born, were run by the same people. Oh, not the same, they weren't the same individuals.

[Assistant] So how did she end up in Ecuador?

[User] Well, that's AID.

[Assistant] Oh, that's, OK. So you did five years as Peace Corps associate director in Paraguay.

[User] Yeah. And couple of things while I was there. One, when I got there, we had the crop extension program and we had the home extension program. And that was it. And we had a group of trainees that was supposed to enter training that summer. And my boss was really concerned because he didn't know how, he didn't think the first group was working out very well because they hadn't had any supervision and any help. And we got the Bosico people in and they said, no, hey, you shouldn't have any more volunteers coming in this soon. We canceled the program. The Paraguayans were very upset because Stroessner loved volunteers and he was always asking, where's the volunteer? And when he heard it that one of his agencies was not going to get any volunteers, he was upset. And they were worried about this happening, which was, in a way it was good for us because they did want volunteers. They didn't care what they did.

[Assistant] They just wanted volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's AID.

[Assistant] Oh, that's, OK. So you did five years as Peace Corps associate director in Paraguay.

[User] Yeah. And couple of things while I was there. One, when I got there, we had the crop extension program and we had the home extension program. And that was it. And we had a group of trainees that was supposed to enter training that summer. And my boss was really concerned because he didn't know how, he didn't think the first group was working out very well because they hadn't had any supervision and any help. And we got the Bosico people in and they said, no, hey, you shouldn't have any more volunteers coming in this soon. We canceled the program. The Paraguayans were very upset because Stroessner loved volunteers and he was always asking, where's the volunteer? And when he heard it that one of his agencies was not going to get any volunteers, he was upset. And they were worried about this happening, which was, in a way it was good for us because they did want volunteers. They didn't care what they did.

[Assistant] They just wanted volunteers.

[User] They just wanted volunteers so they could show them off to the president. So anyway, after some work with Bosico and so forth, we decided what we needed to do was have a getaway or a retreat with our volunteers and the Paraguayans who were working with them. And we went down to this, what was an old German Nazi place, I think. I mean, there were lots of Nazis all over Latin America. I mean, there were Germans there that had come before the war and Germans that came after the war. And the ones in Paraguay I think were most of the ones that came after the war. But anyway, there was this, they had a really nice hotel out in the middle of nowhere. The roads to get there were not very good. They were, I mean, they were mud roads. But it was a nice hotel and it was a good place to just, you know, get away.

[Assistant] To have a meeting, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To get away from things. So we had this meeting there. We invited the Paraguayans to come and for three or four days we discussed the program, what we wanted to do, and what kind of help we needed from the Paraguayan agencies. And you know, they all agreed, yes, they'd do it. I'm not sure that they did it as well as we would have liked, but they did. So we got another. We got a group of volunteers the following year that were trained and their spots were, their sites were chosen by their counterpart agency. And then I guess, and then as time went on, we got a few volunteers to work with research people. We didn't get very many because we were trying to get, there we wanted real specialists who could do some research. I would write requests for a dozen different kinds of people, just hoping to get one or two. Now, people up in Washington got mad because that hurts their recruiting, if they can't fill all the requests.

[Assistant] But it's hard getting all the people with technical skills, I guess?

[User] Right. Oh yeah. And I mean, I knew they weren't going to get them, but they did, we did get a soil scientist who'd retired from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. He'd been a researcher there. And we got another guy who was fresh out of college. But he had a PhD in plant pathology.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And I think that was probably all. And we had an agricultural economist who had, I don't know, I think a master's degree or something.

[Assistant] Was this unusual? I mean, all of these technical people? Or was this happening throughout Latin America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Oh yeah. And I mean, I knew they weren't going to get them, but they did, we did get a soil scientist who'd retired from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. He'd been a researcher there. And we got another guy who was fresh out of college. But he had a PhD in plant pathology.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And I think that was probably all. And we had an agricultural economist who had, I don't know, I think a master's degree or something.

[Assistant] Was this unusual? I mean, all of these technical people? Or was this happening throughout Latin America?

[User] As far as I know, it wasn't happening everywhere, but I just was looking at what I had learned about research in extension and education in agriculture and decided, OK, we've got the extension people, but we probably could be helping a little bit research. And that one might give the volunteers a bit more of an in into the research people because one of the things that they were supposed to be doing was, the volunteers were supposed to be doing, was putting in research plots out in the field. And I thought it was going to help if they had some volunteers on that end. I don't know whether it did or not, but we got them. And then we also got a few of them that could work in education. We had a couple of people working at the state, some other ones working at small colleges. We got a librarian to work at one of the ag schools.

[Assistant] So you did a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as I know, it wasn't happening everywhere, but I just was looking at what I had learned about research in extension and education in agriculture and decided, OK, we've got the extension people, but we probably could be helping a little bit research. And that one might give the volunteers a bit more of an in into the research people because one of the things that they were supposed to be doing was, the volunteers were supposed to be doing, was putting in research plots out in the field. And I thought it was going to help if they had some volunteers on that end. I don't know whether it did or not, but we got them. And then we also got a few of them that could work in education. We had a couple of people working at the state, some other ones working at small colleges. We got a librarian to work at one of the ag schools.

[Assistant] So you did a lot.

[User] Yeah. And then Peace Corps had a deal with Smithsonian to work on environmental stuff, and so they sent down, I think, without us requesting it, a guy who I can't remember his name anymore but was working on that program. And he came down and said, hey, you guys could use some foresters and some park rangers and stuff. And I said, yeah, we could, if the Paraguayans want them. And so we did. We started a program to work with parks and with forestry. When I got there, there were 30 volunteers in the two extension programs. OK, we also had credit unions, credit co-ops, that had already started when I got there but there were only one or two volunteers. And then one of the things that was interesting there was a guy who I'd known in Ecuador working with credit unions on a Peace Corps program was the head of the program in Paraguay. So we were able to work together pretty well.

[Assistant] It sounds like you did a lot. You stayed there five years.

[User] Yeah, and we went from 30 volunteers to 100. And I can't remember now how many more staff people we had to get.

[Assistant] And so why did you stop working there after five years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and we went from 30 volunteers to 100. And I can't remember now how many more staff people we had to get.

[Assistant] And so why did you stop working there after five years?

[User] Because that was the limit.

[Assistant] Five-year limit.

[User] They told me I had to go. So I left. I would have stayed, I loved that work.

[Assistant] Five-year limit. And then you came back and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because that was the limit.

[Assistant] Five-year limit.

[User] They told me I had to go. So I left. I would have stayed, I loved that work.

[Assistant] Five-year limit. And then you came back and?

[User]
Came back and looked for work. And this guy who had been the, I guess the deputy Peace Corps director in Ecuador when we had developed that proposal for new volunteers, Caleb Roehrig, he'd been a vice president at, was it Xerox? I don't know, one of those big companies anyway, before he came down here and he was. So anyway, but when he left, he went into the job of helping returning Peace Corps staff find jobs. And so when I got back, I contacted him and I was sending resumes and stuff all over the place anyway. But then I was in California because that's where my mother was living then. So we were we were staying with her and CARE I guess wanted to interview me for something in an arid forestry program. And so they had me fly to New York.

And then Caleb said, I'll line you up with some interviews here in Washington. And I went down there and he had an interview for me with AID. AID had never hired a forester. They had turned me down before saying, we don't need foresters. Caleb got me in to talk to somebody. Bill Sigler was his name. And Bill said, but you've been working with agriculture and, you know, packages of practices and all these. I said, yes, I do. And he said, yeah, we can use you. And then he pulled the strings that he needed to in the personnel section to get me hired. And so I went to AID. When I was in Washington for interviews, the country director from Costa Rica. They were going to send me to, or was it Barbados? But the country director from Costa Rica was in town and looking for somebody to help them develop a new forestry program.

[Assistant] And so off to Costa Rica you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They told me I had to go. So I left. I would have stayed, I loved that work.

[Assistant] Five-year limit. And then you came back and?

[User]
Came back and looked for work. And this guy who had been the, I guess the deputy Peace Corps director in Ecuador when we had developed that proposal for new volunteers, Caleb Roehrig, he'd been a vice president at, was it Xerox? I don't know, one of those big companies anyway, before he came down here and he was. So anyway, but when he left, he went into the job of helping returning Peace Corps staff find jobs. And so when I got back, I contacted him and I was sending resumes and stuff all over the place anyway. But then I was in California because that's where my mother was living then. So we were we were staying with her and CARE I guess wanted to interview me for something in an arid forestry program. And so they had me fly to New York.

And then Caleb said, I'll line you up with some interviews here in Washington. And I went down there and he had an interview for me with AID. AID had never hired a forester. They had turned me down before saying, we don't need foresters. Caleb got me in to talk to somebody. Bill Sigler was his name. And Bill said, but you've been working with agriculture and, you know, packages of practices and all these. I said, yes, I do. And he said, yeah, we can use you. And then he pulled the strings that he needed to in the personnel section to get me hired. And so I went to AID. When I was in Washington for interviews, the country director from Costa Rica. They were going to send me to, or was it Barbados? But the country director from Costa Rica was in town and looking for somebody to help them develop a new forestry program.

[Assistant] And so off to Costa Rica you went?

[User] Well, it wasn't quite that easy, but yes. To work on the design of their first forestry program.

[Assistant] So you then spent the rest of your career at U.S. AID?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it wasn't quite that easy, but yes. To work on the design of their first forestry program.

[Assistant] So you then spent the rest of your career at U.S. AID?

[User] Well, U.S. AID and contractors after I left AID. I guess, you know.

[Assistant] So I can ask you this question, how did Peace Corps change your life?

[User] I have no idea what.

[Assistant] What your life would have been otherwise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, U.S. AID and contractors after I left AID. I guess, you know.

[Assistant] So I can ask you this question, how did Peace Corps change your life?

[User] I have no idea what.

[Assistant] What your life would have been otherwise.

[User] What I had expected to end up doing was to end up working either for the U.S. Forest Service or a U.S. timber company like Weyerhaeuser or somebody like that. That's when I went to forestry school, that's really what I saw as my future.

[Assistant] Did you spend most of your career in South America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have no idea what.

[Assistant] What your life would have been otherwise.

[User] What I had expected to end up doing was to end up working either for the U.S. Forest Service or a U.S. timber company like Weyerhaeuser or somebody like that. That's when I went to forestry school, that's really what I saw as my future.

[Assistant] Did you spend most of your career in South America?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So your Spanish is superb at this point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So your Spanish is superb at this point.

[User] Well, I don't know whether it's superb, but, well, one of the problems. I did work in Jamaica also, so my Spanish didn't get any help there. But my wife's English isn't very good, so I was always trying. I would come home from work and try to speak to her in English and she would keep answering in Spanish. And within ten minutes, I was speaking Spanish without even realizing I was doing it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it didn't help her English, but it sure helped my Spanish. I got lots and lots of practice. No matter where we were working.

[Assistant] So are there lots of former Peace Corps volunteers at USAID?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know whether it's superb, but, well, one of the problems. I did work in Jamaica also, so my Spanish didn't get any help there. But my wife's English isn't very good, so I was always trying. I would come home from work and try to speak to her in English and she would keep answering in Spanish. And within ten minutes, I was speaking Spanish without even realizing I was doing it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it didn't help her English, but it sure helped my Spanish. I got lots and lots of practice. No matter where we were working.

[Assistant] So are there lots of former Peace Corps volunteers at USAID?

[User] Yeah, in fact, what was it, we had a conference, some of the Latin American aggies and somebody said, how many of you graduated from agricultural school? And a bunch of people raised their hands. And then somebody got up and said, you know, what we should ask is how many are ex Peace Corps volunteers? And practically everybody raised their hands. The Latin American aggies, well, people working in ag for AID, were almost all Peace Corps volunteers, ex Peace Corps volunteers, at that time I mean. That I think has changed. They're recruiting differently now.

[Assistant] Do you think the Peace Corps experience made a difference in the AID projects that were, the AID work that was being done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it didn't help her English, but it sure helped my Spanish. I got lots and lots of practice. No matter where we were working.

[Assistant] So are there lots of former Peace Corps volunteers at USAID?

[User] Yeah, in fact, what was it, we had a conference, some of the Latin American aggies and somebody said, how many of you graduated from agricultural school? And a bunch of people raised their hands. And then somebody got up and said, you know, what we should ask is how many are ex Peace Corps volunteers? And practically everybody raised their hands. The Latin American aggies, well, people working in ag for AID, were almost all Peace Corps volunteers, ex Peace Corps volunteers, at that time I mean. That I think has changed. They're recruiting differently now.

[Assistant] Do you think the Peace Corps experience made a difference in the AID projects that were, the AID work that was being done?

[User] Um. Yeah, I think volunteers were more aware of the social side of things. Not, you know, it wasn't purely just a technical thing. Oh, that was a constant problem I think, I thought, within AID. You'd have to, especially, you know, AID has Foreign Service personnel who work overseas, and then they had, what were they called? Civil service personnel who worked, whose base was in Washington and who would travel overseas. And that was just a constant battle to me was, you'd get these people who had really no overseas experience and would go overseas and sometimes really make a mess of things because they didn't know what they were doing. They were only there for a couple of weeks, fortunately, so they couldn't do, couldn't usually do too much harm.

[Assistant] When you worked at U.S. AID, did you continue to work with the Peace Corps volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, in fact, what was it, we had a conference, some of the Latin American aggies and somebody said, how many of you graduated from agricultural school? And a bunch of people raised their hands. And then somebody got up and said, you know, what we should ask is how many are ex Peace Corps volunteers? And practically everybody raised their hands. The Latin American aggies, well, people working in ag for AID, were almost all Peace Corps volunteers, ex Peace Corps volunteers, at that time I mean. That I think has changed. They're recruiting differently now.

[Assistant] Do you think the Peace Corps experience made a difference in the AID projects that were, the AID work that was being done?

[User] Um. Yeah, I think volunteers were more aware of the social side of things. Not, you know, it wasn't purely just a technical thing. Oh, that was a constant problem I think, I thought, within AID. You'd have to, especially, you know, AID has Foreign Service personnel who work overseas, and then they had, what were they called? Civil service personnel who worked, whose base was in Washington and who would travel overseas. And that was just a constant battle to me was, you'd get these people who had really no overseas experience and would go overseas and sometimes really make a mess of things because they didn't know what they were doing. They were only there for a couple of weeks, fortunately, so they couldn't do, couldn't usually do too much harm.

[Assistant] When you worked at U.S. AID, did you continue to work with the Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] Let's see. I wanted to when, I can't remember now. I know in Costa Rica we didn't, even though I had working with me on our staff when we were developing our natural resource management program, what I called a forestry program earlier, but it was really much broader than just forestry, was the wife of the Peace Corps director. But it didn't.

[Assistant] Didn't translate into, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn't translate into anything, I guess, and I kept meaning to do it, and I mean, I knew the volunteers were there. Was that where I? But I was never able to really get anything done. I'm trying to remember. And in Ecuador, basically the same thing. I knew the Peace Corps people but. Well, I got involved occasionally in helping to approve a grant from AID for Peace Corps programming. But not the kind of thing that I would have liked to have done, which was, well, like what we did with the credit unions in Paraguay. There it was we were working, we had lots of volunteers working in that AID program and it was because we were working with AID. And that ag economist I talked about, that was because AID had an ag economist who wanted some help. And so we got him a Peace Corps volunteer to work with.

[Assistant] So what did you learn in Peace Corps? Yeah, I mean, you clearly, you met your wife and it changed your whole career trajectory. But when you think back at it, what do you think the benefit of your Peace Corps experience has been?

[User] Well, I learned agriculture enough so that AID would hire me as an agriculturist.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] And later said, we need a forester here in this country and we don't have one. And I was there and I was doing forestry. But because I was not on the AID rolls as a forester, they thought, well, we don't have one. Because the personnel office said we don't have one.

[Assistant] Have you remained active in Peace Corps activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I learned agriculture enough so that AID would hire me as an agriculturist.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] And later said, we need a forester here in this country and we don't have one. And I was there and I was doing forestry. But because I was not on the AID rolls as a forester, they thought, well, we don't have one. Because the personnel office said we don't have one.

[Assistant] Have you remained active in Peace Corps activities?

[User] Moderately. You know, I have. I went out and picked up trash a few times. Let's see, I, there was a.

[Assistant] And that was with the Northern Virginia group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And later said, we need a forester here in this country and we don't have one. And I was there and I was doing forestry. But because I was not on the AID rolls as a forester, they thought, well, we don't have one. Because the personnel office said we don't have one.

[Assistant] Have you remained active in Peace Corps activities?

[User] Moderately. You know, I have. I went out and picked up trash a few times. Let's see, I, there was a.

[Assistant] And that was with the Northern Virginia group?

[User] That was in Northern Virginia. And then there was, I can't remember now how they got hold of me. But there was a school in Alexandria or somewhere around there that the teacher had requested help. She had a student who was from Ecuador and who didn't seem to fit in. And she thought if she could get some help from Peace Corps, from an Ecuadorian volunteer, it might do some good. So I went over there and gave them a talk, an hour about Ecuador and showed some, I guess I didn't have any slides because my all my slides had gotten ruined in moving from Paraguay to the U.S. The Peace Corps moving people had packed them and then didn't tell me they were there when I was in California and they sat out in the rain for I don't know how many months. And so I lost all my slides, so I didn't have slides I could have shown. But anyway, I don't know whether that did any good or not because I never heard anything more from them. But I can't, I guess that's probably about all I've done.

[Assistant] Well, you stayed in touch with Ecuador all of these years and do travel back to Ecuador.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Moderately. You know, I have. I went out and picked up trash a few times. Let's see, I, there was a.

[Assistant] And that was with the Northern Virginia group?

[User] That was in Northern Virginia. And then there was, I can't remember now how they got hold of me. But there was a school in Alexandria or somewhere around there that the teacher had requested help. She had a student who was from Ecuador and who didn't seem to fit in. And she thought if she could get some help from Peace Corps, from an Ecuadorian volunteer, it might do some good. So I went over there and gave them a talk, an hour about Ecuador and showed some, I guess I didn't have any slides because my all my slides had gotten ruined in moving from Paraguay to the U.S. The Peace Corps moving people had packed them and then didn't tell me they were there when I was in California and they sat out in the rain for I don't know how many months. And so I lost all my slides, so I didn't have slides I could have shown. But anyway, I don't know whether that did any good or not because I never heard anything more from them. But I can't, I guess that's probably about all I've done.

[Assistant] Well, you stayed in touch with Ecuador all of these years and do travel back to Ecuador.

[User] Well, I don't anymore because I'm not allowed to go to ten thousand feet. I've had heart problems.

[Assistant] So it's too high.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in Northern Virginia. And then there was, I can't remember now how they got hold of me. But there was a school in Alexandria or somewhere around there that the teacher had requested help. She had a student who was from Ecuador and who didn't seem to fit in. And she thought if she could get some help from Peace Corps, from an Ecuadorian volunteer, it might do some good. So I went over there and gave them a talk, an hour about Ecuador and showed some, I guess I didn't have any slides because my all my slides had gotten ruined in moving from Paraguay to the U.S. The Peace Corps moving people had packed them and then didn't tell me they were there when I was in California and they sat out in the rain for I don't know how many months. And so I lost all my slides, so I didn't have slides I could have shown. But anyway, I don't know whether that did any good or not because I never heard anything more from them. But I can't, I guess that's probably about all I've done.

[Assistant] Well, you stayed in touch with Ecuador all of these years and do travel back to Ecuador.

[User] Well, I don't anymore because I'm not allowed to go to ten thousand feet. I've had heart problems.

[Assistant] So it's too high.

[User] It's too high for me, yeah.

[Assistant] But your wife goes back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't anymore because I'm not allowed to go to ten thousand feet. I've had heart problems.

[Assistant] So it's too high.

[User] It's too high for me, yeah.

[Assistant] But your wife goes back.

[User] My wife goes back and brings me some Manichos.

[Assistant] Manichos. That's great. Anything else you want to talk about? Should we wind down the interview?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My wife goes back and brings me some Manichos.

[Assistant] Manichos. That's great. Anything else you want to talk about? Should we wind down the interview?

[User] There was something I was thinking of that I wanted to. I guess not. I can't think of. I mean, I have maintained, well for a while, I maintained contact with some of my ex Peace Corps friends, like the one that was in Panama. He came and visited us when we were living in Knoxville. And there was another one, the one I traveled all over Ecuador with, who married a woman who was really, I would say, really weird, but he ended up in a commune. And they did come and visit me once and then after then I think they went to the commune and I've heard back from them ever again.

[Assistant] Separate lives.

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. And I guess that's. You know, I keep wondering what some of them are doing, but.

[Assistant] Well, is there a group of Ecuador returned volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was something I was thinking of that I wanted to. I guess not. I can't think of. I mean, I have maintained, well for a while, I maintained contact with some of my ex Peace Corps friends, like the one that was in Panama. He came and visited us when we were living in Knoxville. And there was another one, the one I traveled all over Ecuador with, who married a woman who was really, I would say, really weird, but he ended up in a commune. And they did come and visit me once and then after then I think they went to the commune and I've heard back from them ever again.

[Assistant] Separate lives.

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. And I guess that's. You know, I keep wondering what some of them are doing, but.

[Assistant] Well, is there a group of Ecuador returned volunteers?

[User] Yeah, there is. But you know, all I ever see there is the newsletter. Just like Paraguay. I also get the newsletters from there. But there's not. It's all too recent that's in there for me. And I don't think I've ever seen anything, just like I've never contributed anything.

[Assistant] I was going to say, if you wrote something and asked for your vintage people, then you'd hear from them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, oh yeah. And I guess that's. You know, I keep wondering what some of them are doing, but.

[Assistant] Well, is there a group of Ecuador returned volunteers?

[User] Yeah, there is. But you know, all I ever see there is the newsletter. Just like Paraguay. I also get the newsletters from there. But there's not. It's all too recent that's in there for me. And I don't think I've ever seen anything, just like I've never contributed anything.

[Assistant] I was going to say, if you wrote something and asked for your vintage people, then you'd hear from them.

[User] Maybe I would hear.

[Assistant] Something that you can take away from this interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there is. But you know, all I ever see there is the newsletter. Just like Paraguay. I also get the newsletters from there. But there's not. It's all too recent that's in there for me. And I don't think I've ever seen anything, just like I've never contributed anything.

[Assistant] I was going to say, if you wrote something and asked for your vintage people, then you'd hear from them.

[User] Maybe I would hear.

[Assistant] Something that you can take away from this interview.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Reach out to them. Well, thank you. This has been a really interesting interview. Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe I would hear.

[Assistant] Something that you can take away from this interview.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Reach out to them. Well, thank you. This has been a really interesting interview. Thank you very much.

[User]
Thank you.

OK, I do have one more, one more thing I ought to mention. I was, I'd been in Ecuador for about two months I think when Kennedy was assassinated. And a friend of mine and I were out at the market, buying goods for a party we were going to have that night. And so people came up to us and said in Spanish, told us your president has been assassinated. And our Spanish wasn't very good, so we asked to repeat it a couple of times. And then we went up to some other volunteers who had a shortwave radio and got them to turn the radio on. And sure enough, Kennedy had been assassinated. The volunteers in Ibarra, which is the town I was in at the time, sent a telegram to Jackie expressing our condolences. And the next day I went to the place where you could buy newspapers and there was a long line of people waiting. And it was a line, which was unusual in Ecuador as they usually don't form lines. But I got in line and people said, you're a gringo, get up to the front of the line. And they let me buy my paper first. Which again, it was.

[Assistant] Which is a sign of respect, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The view is. I know, you can almost see forever, can’t you?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] My mother used to talk about a book that impressed her so much growing up, How Green Was My Valley. I look out there, and I think of that; I think of her. She would have loved this.

[Assistant] I bet.

[User] Jack designed it, the house, and built things with what we wanted to put in it. We couldn’t keep everything that we have [gathered] over all the 60 some years that we’ve been married, so we did have to part with some things. We’ve given a lot of things away. I did tell the kids if there was something special that they would want [to mark it]. One day I was dusting after all the kids had been there. I turned it upside down, and there was my oldest son’s name on the bottom. “This is mine.”

[Assistant] That’s funny. They’ve got to mark their property.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My mother used to talk about a book that impressed her so much growing up, How Green Was My Valley. I look out there, and I think of that; I think of her. She would have loved this.

[Assistant] I bet.

[User] Jack designed it, the house, and built things with what we wanted to put in it. We couldn’t keep everything that we have [gathered] over all the 60 some years that we’ve been married, so we did have to part with some things. We’ve given a lot of things away. I did tell the kids if there was something special that they would want [to mark it]. One day I was dusting after all the kids had been there. I turned it upside down, and there was my oldest son’s name on the bottom. “This is mine.”

[Assistant] That’s funny. They’ve got to mark their property.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Tell us a little bit about your childhood and experiences growing up before you met Jack.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve always been interested in health and welfare. I think probably because I was sick so much when I was little that that really grabbed me. When some aunts and uncles come and visit you for the last time because they think you’re dying.

[Assistant] That’s a burden.

[User] I know. I think we understand a little bit more how to deal with things like this. They used to come and weep. I didn’t know what they were all crying about, and why they looked so sad. It was disturbing to me. Mom handled it well. Her mother also lived with my dad and mom, so I always grew up with a grandma in my home.\n\n That was normal when people got older in our family. Now what do we do? Because they can’t take care of their house anymore, they just come and live with you. My grandma that I loved so much had taken care of her father-in-law. In fact she took great pride in the fact that the day that she married grandpa, this old man came to her and said, “Now I know where I’ll spend my last days.” She took care of great-grandpa. She had six, seven kids, and they didn’t have any running water. The water had to be heated on the stove, and they had to bring it in from the outside pump.

[Assistant] A different life than today, that’s for sure.

[User] I know it.

[Assistant] Yes, very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know it.

[Assistant] Yes, very much.

[User] As she got older, of course she’d tell these stories over and over and over. You think, “Oh, older people, they must just forget they told you.” It’s important, because those are the things you remember. If you have that opportunity to care for either your parents or your in-laws, it’s not easy.

[Assistant] It’s not.

[User] It is not easy. When Mother finally couldn’t manage for herself she came to us for the last six years, and I couldn’t leave her. It was hard to get anybody to come.\n\n It’s funny because you think of people that want to help you—well, yourself, you want to help somebody, so you go to them and say, “Well, what can I do for you?” But when it comes to stepping in and helping care for a person, nobody’s coming. If you can ever do anything for anyone, you can help them. I remember things were really wearing thin. Jack was wonderful. I’d put Mother to bed, and she’d get right up and come right out again. All he’d have to say is, “Mama, it’s time to go to bed.” She’d grab her old walker, and off she’d go. That was my childhood and how I grew up, and I think how I was always interested in nursing, physical caring, and just emotional caring.\n\n We all have callings. You’re here today because you wouldn’t do this, you’re not going to become millionaires. I hate to tell you that.

[Assistant]
No, we’ve learned that.

More than aware of that.

Yes, history doesn’t pay that well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We didn’t have any children until—in fact all of our children are adopted, all four of them. No, the first seven years, in a way it was kind of nice, because when I could go I did. When he went to Japan that year, that was a difficult year. I thought, “Well, now, what am I going to do?” You goose, you’ve got a whole year to do what you want to do.\n\n My folks wanted me to come back to Ann Arbor and be with them, so I said, “Yes, that’s good. I’ll do that.” I just went back to Ann Arbor and picked up some old friendships that I’d had in high school and got to know those people after a few years had gone by. That was nice. Jack and I wrote letters back and forth.\n\n One of the regrets that I have, he was a wonderful writer, and I wasn’t. I just, “Went to town, da da da da.” When we moved here, I was overwhelmed with stuff. There’s this great big pile of letters, and I couldn’t think of anything better to do [with them]. I regret that a little bit. I tied a big bow on them and burned them.

[Assistant]
Oh no.

Oh no.

[User] They were mine. I know. I did the same thing with thank-you notes that people would write after they’d come to the flight. I started going through those thank-you notes, and pretty soon I couldn’t remember the people, I couldn’t put the name and the face [together]. I said, “It was all so wonderful. I don’t want to be hung up with worrying about can’t remember somebody’s name. They’re all wonderful.” So I tied up another and burned them.

[Assistant] Next time you want to know what to do with some stuff, let us know. We can help you.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Before you burn them let us know. We have some ideas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were mine. I know. I did the same thing with thank-you notes that people would write after they’d come to the flight. I started going through those thank-you notes, and pretty soon I couldn’t remember the people, I couldn’t put the name and the face [together]. I said, “It was all so wonderful. I don’t want to be hung up with worrying about can’t remember somebody’s name. They’re all wonderful.” So I tied up another and burned them.

[Assistant] Next time you want to know what to do with some stuff, let us know. We can help you.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Before you burn them let us know. We have some ideas.

[User] I wish now, with the book that Jack would like to write, because he is a good writer, that I had kept some of them. I can remember a lot of stuff too, even with my 80-plus-year mind.

[Assistant] You mentioned yesterday that the military trained you before you went to NASA. Can you explain what you mean by that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Before you burn them let us know. We have some ideas.

[User] I wish now, with the book that Jack would like to write, because he is a good writer, that I had kept some of them. I can remember a lot of stuff too, even with my 80-plus-year mind.

[Assistant] You mentioned yesterday that the military trained you before you went to NASA. Can you explain what you mean by that?

[User] I was raised on a farm, so that was a totally different life than what I was going after our marriage to go into. Our first anniversary, he was in Quantico, Virginia, going through boot camp with the Marine Corps, and I was back in Ann Arbor. Our second anniversary, that’s where he was. We haven’t spent a lot of our anniversaries together. It seems like there’s always a need to be away.\n\n Things don’t always happen the way you want them to. That’s what I learned. Living on a farm was more regimented, but there were always surprises. You learned to function with surprises and to be creative in handling the surprises.\n\n When I went into nursing, there’s always surprises. If someone is expiring, you can’t just stand there and scream. You learned what you could do. Because you’ve had all these experiences, if you just stop and think about it, you can figure out what to do.\n\n When Jack came back from his last flight—when he was up there, the hurricane was coming in, so we had to board up. You know how people do. Board up, maybe they don’t do that now.

[Assistant] We still do. We still board up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of the girls just do not do well. I didn’t want that to happen. The kids had a lot of anticipation about this, and if it didn’t work, well, we had time to deal with it later. There’s not been a lot of consternation in our home or division or telling Jack he shouldn’t do this or that. He’s trustworthy. He is.

[Assistant] Had you ever been to Texas before? What were your thoughts about moving to the Lone Star State?

[User] Oh, you mean when we moved to Houston?

[Assistant] Yes, in the ’60s.

[User] That’s where NASA was. At first we were just moving to NASA. I didn’t even think about Texas; [I’m] from Michigan. We knew they liked to brag, but we did too. It was a new experience, it was. I didn’t have a job. We had the kids then so I wasn’t working away from home. In fact, I got a lot of flak from my neighbors. “What do you do all day?” They had jobs. I said to them, “When that bus stops out there, they come to my house. They sit at my kitchen bar. They talk to me. I know things that you’ll never know.” That’s true.

[Assistant] Tell us about Clear Lake and your memories of moving down there. How would you describe Clear Lake when you arrived? What did you see?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you mean when we moved to Houston?

[Assistant] Yes, in the ’60s.

[User] That’s where NASA was. At first we were just moving to NASA. I didn’t even think about Texas; [I’m] from Michigan. We knew they liked to brag, but we did too. It was a new experience, it was. I didn’t have a job. We had the kids then so I wasn’t working away from home. In fact, I got a lot of flak from my neighbors. “What do you do all day?” They had jobs. I said to them, “When that bus stops out there, they come to my house. They sit at my kitchen bar. They talk to me. I know things that you’ll never know.” That’s true.

[Assistant] Tell us about Clear Lake and your memories of moving down there. How would you describe Clear Lake when you arrived? What did you see?

[User] Oh. It was pretty barren still. Back in, let’s see, what was that, [1966]. Clear Lake was just really beginning. Ellington was the big thing because that’s where the airplanes came, the guys flew in and out of Ellington. Clear Lake was built around the air facility there, and it ran into Pasadena. We were over in El Lago for three years, and then we moved to Friendswood. I talked about that before. Jennifer [Thornton] and I were talking about that last night, talking about our bench that we want to put in the park.\n\n When we got there life was pretty normal. The Quakers did not care if you’re going into space, just so you didn’t smoke. Don’t smoke. I think it was still dry when we left. They hung on to it as long as they could. I just immersed my life in the community.

[Assistant] What attracted you to El Lago at first? Was there anything in particular that you liked about that location?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. It was pretty barren still. Back in, let’s see, what was that, [1966]. Clear Lake was just really beginning. Ellington was the big thing because that’s where the airplanes came, the guys flew in and out of Ellington. Clear Lake was built around the air facility there, and it ran into Pasadena. We were over in El Lago for three years, and then we moved to Friendswood. I talked about that before. Jennifer [Thornton] and I were talking about that last night, talking about our bench that we want to put in the park.\n\n When we got there life was pretty normal. The Quakers did not care if you’re going into space, just so you didn’t smoke. Don’t smoke. I think it was still dry when we left. They hung on to it as long as they could. I just immersed my life in the community.

[Assistant] What attracted you to El Lago at first? Was there anything in particular that you liked about that location?

[User] Oh. That I liked about El Lago? We liked it. It was busy. I think there were 80 little kids on our street.

[Assistant] Eighty kids?

[User] Eighty little kids.

[Assistant] I can’t imagine, that’s an army.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. That I liked about El Lago? We liked it. It was busy. I think there were 80 little kids on our street.

[Assistant] Eighty kids?

[User] Eighty little kids.

[Assistant] I can’t imagine, that’s an army.

[User] Most of them were young because these were young families. I think the first thing that happened, that really hit me that we were in the astronaut program, because we moved, and we lived in a motel down in Dickinson for a while, and then we finally got into a house.\n\n We were the last street of houses that was built in El Lago, and we bought one of those new houses, which was good. We didn’t have any real view of moving to Friendswood, but we knew we wanted to get out. I was country, and it was harder for me to live in a community where people are running in and out of your house all the time. That was when I started story hour for kids once a week.

[Assistant] Will you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eighty little kids.

[Assistant] I can’t imagine, that’s an army.

[User] Most of them were young because these were young families. I think the first thing that happened, that really hit me that we were in the astronaut program, because we moved, and we lived in a motel down in Dickinson for a while, and then we finally got into a house.\n\n We were the last street of houses that was built in El Lago, and we bought one of those new houses, which was good. We didn’t have any real view of moving to Friendswood, but we knew we wanted to get out. I was country, and it was harder for me to live in a community where people are running in and out of your house all the time. That was when I started story hour for kids once a week.

[Assistant] Will you tell us about that?

[User] Yes, that was really nice.

[Assistant] Was that in El Lago still?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of them were young because these were young families. I think the first thing that happened, that really hit me that we were in the astronaut program, because we moved, and we lived in a motel down in Dickinson for a while, and then we finally got into a house.\n\n We were the last street of houses that was built in El Lago, and we bought one of those new houses, which was good. We didn’t have any real view of moving to Friendswood, but we knew we wanted to get out. I was country, and it was harder for me to live in a community where people are running in and out of your house all the time. That was when I started story hour for kids once a week.

[Assistant] Will you tell us about that?

[User] Yes, that was really nice.

[Assistant] Was that in El Lago still?

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What prompted you to create a story hour for the kids?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was really nice.

[Assistant] Was that in El Lago still?

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What prompted you to create a story hour for the kids?

[User] They were there anyway, so I had them right there. I thought, “Well, we might as well do something kind of productive.” My mother had taught Bible school when I was growing up. She had what they called a flannelgraph. They had a piece of flannel and you cut out pictures and you put sandpaper on the back of a character. Then you can put it right on the flannel. You can tell the story, and the kids would listen real good. If they listened they could come up and put the characters on themselves and tell the story. I’m still in touch with those kids to this day. I know. I know.

[Assistant] Wow! Who else was living on your street? You mentioned 80 kids. Were they all NASA people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What prompted you to create a story hour for the kids?

[User] They were there anyway, so I had them right there. I thought, “Well, we might as well do something kind of productive.” My mother had taught Bible school when I was growing up. She had what they called a flannelgraph. They had a piece of flannel and you cut out pictures and you put sandpaper on the back of a character. Then you can put it right on the flannel. You can tell the story, and the kids would listen real good. If they listened they could come up and put the characters on themselves and tell the story. I’m still in touch with those kids to this day. I know. I know.

[Assistant] Wow! Who else was living on your street? You mentioned 80 kids. Were they all NASA people?

[User] Most of them were, or they worked for Philco or the contractors. The Armstrongs lived right up at the head of our street. We lived on Shadow Creek.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you what your address was. People are always interested in that, I’m sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were there anyway, so I had them right there. I thought, “Well, we might as well do something kind of productive.” My mother had taught Bible school when I was growing up. She had what they called a flannelgraph. They had a piece of flannel and you cut out pictures and you put sandpaper on the back of a character. Then you can put it right on the flannel. You can tell the story, and the kids would listen real good. If they listened they could come up and put the characters on themselves and tell the story. I’m still in touch with those kids to this day. I know. I know.

[Assistant] Wow! Who else was living on your street? You mentioned 80 kids. Were they all NASA people?

[User] Most of them were, or they worked for Philco or the contractors. The Armstrongs lived right up at the head of our street. We lived on Shadow Creek.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you what your address was. People are always interested in that, I’m sure.

[User] In those days, that brings up something. There used to be a bus tour that came through, looking at where the astronauts lived. You could get on this bus over at NASA and they would take you on a tour.

[Assistant] What did you think of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of them were, or they worked for Philco or the contractors. The Armstrongs lived right up at the head of our street. We lived on Shadow Creek.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you what your address was. People are always interested in that, I’m sure.

[User] In those days, that brings up something. There used to be a bus tour that came through, looking at where the astronauts lived. You could get on this bus over at NASA and they would take you on a tour.

[Assistant] What did you think of that?

[User] I think it just began to hit me where in the world we were.

[Assistant] It really hadn’t hit until then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In those days, that brings up something. There used to be a bus tour that came through, looking at where the astronauts lived. You could get on this bus over at NASA and they would take you on a tour.

[Assistant] What did you think of that?

[User] I think it just began to hit me where in the world we were.

[Assistant] It really hadn’t hit until then?

[User] Not a lot. I had our [astronaut] group for dinner one night, and there were 19 of us. Nobody had any furniture, so it was just get your plate and sit on the floor type of thing. I remember we were all sitting in the living room. We had a big picture window, and we’re sitting there looking out. Down the street came Ed [Edward H.] White and his wife riding their bicycles, and we said, “Oh, look there’s astronauts, look at [that].” Then it began to dawn on all of us that this is what we were going to do.

[Assistant] They were the astronauts, not your husbands.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a lot. I had our [astronaut] group for dinner one night, and there were 19 of us. Nobody had any furniture, so it was just get your plate and sit on the floor type of thing. I remember we were all sitting in the living room. We had a big picture window, and we’re sitting there looking out. Down the street came Ed [Edward H.] White and his wife riding their bicycles, and we said, “Oh, look there’s astronauts, look at [that].” Then it began to dawn on all of us that this is what we were going to do.

[Assistant] They were the astronauts, not your husbands.

[User] I know it, it’s crazy. I think things hit you in increments. You don’t get the full picture. Then we thought, “Oh, hmm.”

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] Then I think some of the girls, because we came from all different backgrounds, a lot of us had been in the military. Well, what is an astronaut’s wife supposed to look like? What does she do? What perception does the public have? How did you feel you fit into that? That’s a real shocker. Then it became clear why Jan Armstrong hid in her house and Pat White right next door, because people would come and crawl up on the fence and look in your windows.

[Assistant] Oh, gosh, even to you guys? Even before Jack had flown?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know it, it’s crazy. I think things hit you in increments. You don’t get the full picture. Then we thought, “Oh, hmm.”

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] Then I think some of the girls, because we came from all different backgrounds, a lot of us had been in the military. Well, what is an astronaut’s wife supposed to look like? What does she do? What perception does the public have? How did you feel you fit into that? That’s a real shocker. Then it became clear why Jan Armstrong hid in her house and Pat White right next door, because people would come and crawl up on the fence and look in your windows.

[Assistant] Oh, gosh, even to you guys? Even before Jack had flown?

[User] I know. Things begin to diminish a little bit when 19—it used to be maybe 5 or 6 fellows that came together, but there were 19 of us. People didn’t know what to do with us, and we didn’t know what to do with them. It became clear pretty soon that people wanted to get to know you, but they didn’t really want to get to know you. They wanted to use you. That’s all right to a point, as long as you realize what it is that they’re doing, and you consent to that and it doesn’t go against your principles. But you have to be careful.

[Assistant] Did NASA have anything for the wives? Were you welcomed at all? Were you given a tour of the facilities? Was there anything like that for your group? No?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I think some of the girls, because we came from all different backgrounds, a lot of us had been in the military. Well, what is an astronaut’s wife supposed to look like? What does she do? What perception does the public have? How did you feel you fit into that? That’s a real shocker. Then it became clear why Jan Armstrong hid in her house and Pat White right next door, because people would come and crawl up on the fence and look in your windows.

[Assistant] Oh, gosh, even to you guys? Even before Jack had flown?

[User] I know. Things begin to diminish a little bit when 19—it used to be maybe 5 or 6 fellows that came together, but there were 19 of us. People didn’t know what to do with us, and we didn’t know what to do with them. It became clear pretty soon that people wanted to get to know you, but they didn’t really want to get to know you. They wanted to use you. That’s all right to a point, as long as you realize what it is that they’re doing, and you consent to that and it doesn’t go against your principles. But you have to be careful.

[Assistant] Did NASA have anything for the wives? Were you welcomed at all? Were you given a tour of the facilities? Was there anything like that for your group? No?

[User] No, we just arrived. I don’t know, I thought I had a picture. They invited us to come over. There was an article. I don’t know if you want to [look]—when they all came to NASA.

[Assistant] We’ll have to make a copy of that. I think I’ve seen you with a command module in a photo, that’s why I wondered.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. Things begin to diminish a little bit when 19—it used to be maybe 5 or 6 fellows that came together, but there were 19 of us. People didn’t know what to do with us, and we didn’t know what to do with them. It became clear pretty soon that people wanted to get to know you, but they didn’t really want to get to know you. They wanted to use you. That’s all right to a point, as long as you realize what it is that they’re doing, and you consent to that and it doesn’t go against your principles. But you have to be careful.

[Assistant] Did NASA have anything for the wives? Were you welcomed at all? Were you given a tour of the facilities? Was there anything like that for your group? No?

[User] No, we just arrived. I don’t know, I thought I had a picture. They invited us to come over. There was an article. I don’t know if you want to [look]—when they all came to NASA.

[Assistant] We’ll have to make a copy of that. I think I’ve seen you with a command module in a photo, that’s why I wondered.

[User] This was over at Ardis’s.

[Assistant] That does look familiar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we just arrived. I don’t know, I thought I had a picture. They invited us to come over. There was an article. I don’t know if you want to [look]—when they all came to NASA.

[Assistant] We’ll have to make a copy of that. I think I’ve seen you with a command module in a photo, that’s why I wondered.

[User] This was over at Ardis’s.

[Assistant] That does look familiar.

[User] I look like I’m looking for Ardis. What’s she up to? Oh, here, I did have a picture of it. They invited us over to NASA to show us what the space capsule looked like. Here we are. That was shortly after we arrived. Can you find JoAnn Carr?

[Assistant] I do. Yes, I see JoAnn. I love the hairdos. I like your hair, the little flip.