{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.474589261242754, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most—most everyone calls me “C. C.” I—the reason being is that the given name was hard to pronounce and people solved the problem by just saying “C. C.” And they didn’t have to worry about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a matter of fact, the given name was so hard to pronounce that it’s spelled “Caldwell” and pronounced “Cadwell.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beats me. But my father has the same name, and it’s pronounced the same way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with your permission we’ll make it “C. C.” if you’ll make it “Roy” coming in this direction."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 16, "return_to_go": 19.10443118671945, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beats me. But my father has the same name, and it’s pronounced the same way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with your permission we’ll make it “C. C.” if you’ll make it “Roy” coming in this direction."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to the days of something they called the Space Task Group [STG]. Now somehow at that time the manned space program had a beginning. That you were a key man in that early design and test phase. Can you tell us how it all happened? How it all went together?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.731643326809097, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—weren’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And then—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The [National] Advisory [Committee for] Aeronautics—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.606967070134688, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And then—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The [National] Advisory [Committee for] Aeronautics—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—the transition was (when?) 1958 or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "’58, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "’58, yeah. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And suddenly there was something new called NASA."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.118852300149654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—the transition was (when?) 1958 or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "’58, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "’58, yeah. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And suddenly there was something new called NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The National Aeronautics and Space—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.687613666832949, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "’58, yeah. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And suddenly there was something new called NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The National Aeronautics and Space—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Administration. Wasn’t that a grand name?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.208459629814388, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The National Aeronautics and Space—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Administration. Wasn’t that a grand name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that was a grand name. Of course, we were very excited and also worried because the Air Force was in that game, too. And the politics, didn’t know for sure which way it was going to go. But the President finally decided it was going to be a civilian outfit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And actually you married the military, in terms of getting some of those early boosters, didn’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.430197073844923, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that was a grand name. Of course, we were very excited and also worried because the Air Force was in that game, too. And the politics, didn’t know for sure which way it was going to go. But the President finally decided it was going to be a civilian outfit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And actually you married the military, in terms of getting some of those early boosters, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Both—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Army and Air Force now that I’m remembering it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.9385149059813855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Army and Air Force now that I’m remembering it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And in fact, most of them are Army."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Army."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s go back over those beginnings, because now we see the Space Task Group. Here’s this—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.820572117757095, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And in fact, most of them are Army."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Army."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s go back over those beginnings, because now we see the Space Task Group. Here’s this—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—new organization. It’s NASA. You’ve just changed, and not your allegiance—but you’ve changed the flag under which you’re flying. And so now the Space Task Group is getting organized. There you were, at the very beginnings. What role did you play at that time, and how did it work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.3561912419523265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Army."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s go back over those beginnings, because now we see the Space Task Group. Here’s this—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—new organization. It’s NASA. You’ve just changed, and not your allegiance—but you’ve changed the flag under which you’re flying. And so now the Space Task Group is getting organized. There you were, at the very beginnings. What role did you play at that time, and how did it work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a designer of the—of these test aircraft. And roughly the Agency was set up in an administrative department, the research department, and then what was called the Technical Services. Now all the people like the—the Fagets and the Gilruths were in the research department. I was in the technical services. It was our job to perform a service—an engineering service—for the research people. This included the shops, the instrument people, and all that sort of thing. And so, in a sense, I was brought from the organization I really worked for to help these people. So, that’s how I became connected with the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you a title at that time? Because everybody in government service has a title."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.612581780188057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a designer of the—of these test aircraft. And roughly the Agency was set up in an administrative department, the research department, and then what was called the Technical Services. Now all the people like the—the Fagets and the Gilruths were in the research department. I was in the technical services. It was our job to perform a service—an engineering service—for the research people. This included the shops, the instrument people, and all that sort of thing. And so, in a sense, I was brought from the organization I really worked for to help these people. So, that’s how I became connected with the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you a title at that time? Because everybody in government service has a title."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn’t all that formal. I was a section head and I was called that, but—and there were a bunch of young fellows—I think one of the things that made it go, too, is that we were all young. All the older people were in those wind tunnels. And this was a new game, and fortunately it had a bunch of young people because you can’t teach the old guys a new game.\\n\\n And the wind tunnels, we—they were like the battleships. And you remember in the services how the battleship were all having a big fight with the aircraft world? And the old admirals didn’t like these airplanes; and the wind tunnel people didn’t like those of us with these pilotless aircraft doing the research work. And I think that had a lot to it. That it was young blood. We didn’t have enough sense to know that it was, you know—it was going to be a difficult thing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems to me, though, C. C., that at that time something big happened. You had been working with pilotless aircraft, and suddenly the mission had to do with sending a human being—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—up into space. An unknown area."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.347313089097841, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn’t all that formal. I was a section head and I was called that, but—and there were a bunch of young fellows—I think one of the things that made it go, too, is that we were all young. All the older people were in those wind tunnels. And this was a new game, and fortunately it had a bunch of young people because you can’t teach the old guys a new game.\\n\\n And the wind tunnels, we—they were like the battleships. And you remember in the services how the battleship were all having a big fight with the aircraft world? And the old admirals didn’t like these airplanes; and the wind tunnel people didn’t like those of us with these pilotless aircraft doing the research work. And I think that had a lot to it. That it was young blood. We didn’t have enough sense to know that it was, you know—it was going to be a difficult thing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems to me, though, C. C., that at that time something big happened. You had been working with pilotless aircraft, and suddenly the mission had to do with sending a human being—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—up into space. An unknown area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An unknown ocean, if you will. And how did that beginning come together? How did you begin to design something for a human being?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.94145898788649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—up into space. An unknown area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An unknown ocean, if you will. And how did that beginning come together? How did you begin to design something for a human being?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know except that obviously, sooner or later, whatever you do, you’re going to put a man in the thing. No matter what it is. I’m sure the—it’s almost no point in doing things if a man is not involved sooner or later. And of course, by “man” I mean “mankind,” “humans,” or something like that. And I’m sure it must’ve first been speculated about monkeys, if for no other reason they’re smaller. They only weigh 12 or 15 lbs and—as opposed to 150 lbs or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good idea, maybe, to test hardware on animals before you put human beings in the loop."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2682877643183215, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An unknown ocean, if you will. And how did that beginning come together? How did you begin to design something for a human being?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know except that obviously, sooner or later, whatever you do, you’re going to put a man in the thing. No matter what it is. I’m sure the—it’s almost no point in doing things if a man is not involved sooner or later. And of course, by “man” I mean “mankind,” “humans,” or something like that. And I’m sure it must’ve first been speculated about monkeys, if for no other reason they’re smaller. They only weigh 12 or 15 lbs and—as opposed to 150 lbs or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good idea, maybe, to test hardware on animals before you put human beings in the loop."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. In fact, there were a bunch of jokes about that in Mercury days. In fact, I think I remember making a cartoon that—something to the effect that—do you remember Sam? The monkey Sam? And he more or less just went along for the ride, but I wrote a memo and suggested that as long as he was there, if you could teach an astronaut to do this, you could sure as God teach a monkey to do this!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you said you wrote a memo. You have a lowly opinion of memoranda, don’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6314308492425793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know except that obviously, sooner or later, whatever you do, you’re going to put a man in the thing. No matter what it is. I’m sure the—it’s almost no point in doing things if a man is not involved sooner or later. And of course, by “man” I mean “mankind,” “humans,” or something like that. And I’m sure it must’ve first been speculated about monkeys, if for no other reason they’re smaller. They only weigh 12 or 15 lbs and—as opposed to 150 lbs or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good idea, maybe, to test hardware on animals before you put human beings in the loop."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. In fact, there were a bunch of jokes about that in Mercury days. In fact, I think I remember making a cartoon that—something to the effect that—do you remember Sam? The monkey Sam? And he more or less just went along for the ride, but I wrote a memo and suggested that as long as he was there, if you could teach an astronaut to do this, you could sure as God teach a monkey to do this!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you said you wrote a memo. You have a lowly opinion of memoranda, don’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know! Well, that one was kind of a joke. And they—the crew people didn’t take it as a joke at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder why."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.034923165825088, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. In fact, there were a bunch of jokes about that in Mercury days. In fact, I think I remember making a cartoon that—something to the effect that—do you remember Sam? The monkey Sam? And he more or less just went along for the ride, but I wrote a memo and suggested that as long as he was there, if you could teach an astronaut to do this, you could sure as God teach a monkey to do this!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you said you wrote a memo. You have a lowly opinion of memoranda, don’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know! Well, that one was kind of a joke. And they—the crew people didn’t take it as a joke at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder why."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I wonder why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the name Project Mercury come from? Were you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.483247962027876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know! Well, that one was kind of a joke. And they—the crew people didn’t take it as a joke at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder why."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I wonder why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the name Project Mercury come from? Were you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—do you remember that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.981386624475417, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I wonder why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the name Project Mercury come from? Were you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—do you remember that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Out of left field. Suddenly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.534874027194907, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—do you remember that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Out of left field. Suddenly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The messenger of the gods."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.149860030216563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Out of left field. Suddenly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The messenger of the gods."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With wings on his heels."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.833177811351736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The messenger of the gods."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With wings on his heels."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wings on his heels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then along came the astronauts. Seven test pilots were chosen."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.592419790390818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With wings on his heels."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wings on his heels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then along came the astronauts. Seven test pilots were chosen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They came into the picture. By that time, where were you in the design phase, by the time that the men came into the loop?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.32491087821202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wings on his heels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then along came the astronauts. Seven test pilots were chosen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They came into the picture. By that time, where were you in the design phase, by the time that the men came into the loop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. 1958. I have a drawing at home of the—a drawing I made of Mercury, the first performing model. We put together a little paper and explained the systems, and I made the overall configuration images. And that was dated June of 1958. And see, that’s just about when NACA became NASA. So, we were that far along before there was a NASA. And see, that was quite a bit before any astronauts came aboard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you remember of that first design that you put together? Can you visualize it for us?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.02767875356891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They came into the picture. By that time, where were you in the design phase, by the time that the men came into the loop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. 1958. I have a drawing at home of the—a drawing I made of Mercury, the first performing model. We put together a little paper and explained the systems, and I made the overall configuration images. And that was dated June of 1958. And see, that’s just about when NACA became NASA. So, we were that far along before there was a NASA. And see, that was quite a bit before any astronauts came aboard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you remember of that first design that you put together? Can you visualize it for us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in the first place it was a pencil drawing. It was not made with a computer. I can tell you that much. And it was—I still have the original. For some reason, I kept it. And it’s remarkably like Mercury turned out to be. It’s a man in it. A retrorocket. It did not have an escape rocket system. (That came along later.) But otherwise, it’s the same parachute arrangement, and it’s the same shape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it have a window?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.8085319484099, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. 1958. I have a drawing at home of the—a drawing I made of Mercury, the first performing model. We put together a little paper and explained the systems, and I made the overall configuration images. And that was dated June of 1958. And see, that’s just about when NACA became NASA. So, we were that far along before there was a NASA. And see, that was quite a bit before any astronauts came aboard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you remember of that first design that you put together? Can you visualize it for us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in the first place it was a pencil drawing. It was not made with a computer. I can tell you that much. And it was—I still have the original. For some reason, I kept it. And it’s remarkably like Mercury turned out to be. It’s a man in it. A retrorocket. It did not have an escape rocket system. (That came along later.) But otherwise, it’s the same parachute arrangement, and it’s the same shape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it have a window?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It had a little window. Yeah. And, so, it’s not true that we didn’t put a—have a window in it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The process of putting a spacecraft together has always been fascinating, and most people haven’t the slightest idea of how you do it. So, here’s your chance, C. C. Tell us: How did that Mercury spacecraft come into being?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.804804067078038, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I—they were probably as—they were probably in a state of shock, too, at the time. I’m not quite so sure they—they must’ve looked at this thing and thought, “My God! What have we gotten ourselves into?” But it was the first place, it—you know, it doesn’t look like much if you look at Mercury. It doesn’t look like much of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not if you’re used to flying high-performance jets."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. But they didn’t come in roughshod and try to throw their weight around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The image that has been presented in books and motion pictures gives somewhat of that idea. You’re contradicting it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s not so. They were sensible enough to know that different people have different skills, and their skill was flying airplanes. It was not designing airplanes. Not that they couldn’t—they could’ve learned to do that, too, I’m sure, because they were very intelligent, capable guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Mercury of course was designed to put a man in orbit. But you also designed it so that it could be remotely controlled. You could eliminate the man from the system if you had to."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.338671185642264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. But they didn’t come in roughshod and try to throw their weight around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The image that has been presented in books and motion pictures gives somewhat of that idea. You’re contradicting it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s not so. They were sensible enough to know that different people have different skills, and their skill was flying airplanes. It was not designing airplanes. Not that they couldn’t—they could’ve learned to do that, too, I’m sure, because they were very intelligent, capable guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Mercury of course was designed to put a man in orbit. But you also designed it so that it could be remotely controlled. You could eliminate the man from the system if you had to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That was a running battle throughout the program, that there were those of us that say, “Why should we waste 150 lbs and learn about all the safety of a man when with a quarter of that weight you could automate the system?” On the other hand, people would say, “Well, what’s the sense of doing all of this if the man is not involved? Sooner or later the man’s got to be there. ” Unfortunately the system got polarized. I don’t mean within the Mercury Program itself. But if you remember, NASA finally divided into two camps: the manned and the unmanned systems. And, you know, there’s a place for the merger of the two. There’s some things that men do wonderfully, and some things they’re not very good at. The instruments can do things quick, but some things they can’t do worth a damn. They can’t think, for one thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Russians followed a different tact. They said, “Okay, we want this automatic control.” And to this day, they still have it—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.931856872935849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s not so. They were sensible enough to know that different people have different skills, and their skill was flying airplanes. It was not designing airplanes. Not that they couldn’t—they could’ve learned to do that, too, I’m sure, because they were very intelligent, capable guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Mercury of course was designed to put a man in orbit. But you also designed it so that it could be remotely controlled. You could eliminate the man from the system if you had to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That was a running battle throughout the program, that there were those of us that say, “Why should we waste 150 lbs and learn about all the safety of a man when with a quarter of that weight you could automate the system?” On the other hand, people would say, “Well, what’s the sense of doing all of this if the man is not involved? Sooner or later the man’s got to be there. ” Unfortunately the system got polarized. I don’t mean within the Mercury Program itself. But if you remember, NASA finally divided into two camps: the manned and the unmanned systems. And, you know, there’s a place for the merger of the two. There’s some things that men do wonderfully, and some things they’re not very good at. The instruments can do things quick, but some things they can’t do worth a damn. They can’t think, for one thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Russians followed a different tact. They said, “Okay, we want this automatic control.” And to this day, they still have it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—as they fly their cargo vessels up there to replenish the Mir space station. Do you think, perhaps, that might’ve been a better path to follow in retrospect?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.479840969928721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That was a running battle throughout the program, that there were those of us that say, “Why should we waste 150 lbs and learn about all the safety of a man when with a quarter of that weight you could automate the system?” On the other hand, people would say, “Well, what’s the sense of doing all of this if the man is not involved? Sooner or later the man’s got to be there. ” Unfortunately the system got polarized. I don’t mean within the Mercury Program itself. But if you remember, NASA finally divided into two camps: the manned and the unmanned systems. And, you know, there’s a place for the merger of the two. There’s some things that men do wonderfully, and some things they’re not very good at. The instruments can do things quick, but some things they can’t do worth a damn. They can’t think, for one thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Russians followed a different tact. They said, “Okay, we want this automatic control.” And to this day, they still have it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—as they fly their cargo vessels up there to replenish the Mir space station. Do you think, perhaps, that might’ve been a better path to follow in retrospect?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would seem like it’s a sensible thing to do, since it—there are many missions that if—there really isn’t any point in having a man there if it’s simply a resupply mission. Or let’s say, to turn it into the reverse. It—it’s just a Shuttle type of thing going back and forth; it’s routine. And that’s one thing that the men don’t do very well. All the routine things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there would be a place for unmanned cargo aircraft?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.08871218880969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—as they fly their cargo vessels up there to replenish the Mir space station. Do you think, perhaps, that might’ve been a better path to follow in retrospect?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would seem like it’s a sensible thing to do, since it—there are many missions that if—there really isn’t any point in having a man there if it’s simply a resupply mission. Or let’s say, to turn it into the reverse. It—it’s just a Shuttle type of thing going back and forth; it’s routine. And that’s one thing that the men don’t do very well. All the routine things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there would be a place for unmanned cargo aircraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I—yeah, I would think so. I would certainly think so. For instance, the docking activity. You know, it’s easy to automate the thing. The total navigation system. It’s just—well obviously we have all sorts of unmanned satellites doing all kind of things in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working with Max Faget, were you not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.7652357653441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would seem like it’s a sensible thing to do, since it—there are many missions that if—there really isn’t any point in having a man there if it’s simply a resupply mission. Or let’s say, to turn it into the reverse. It—it’s just a Shuttle type of thing going back and forth; it’s routine. And that’s one thing that the men don’t do very well. All the routine things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there would be a place for unmanned cargo aircraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I—yeah, I would think so. I would certainly think so. For instance, the docking activity. You know, it’s easy to automate the thing. The total navigation system. It’s just—well obviously we have all sorts of unmanned satellites doing all kind of things in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working with Max Faget, were you not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh, yes. Very closely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was designing. You were taking the design and putting it, as you say, into “artful form.” I understand that you even designed portholes (no windows) in the original Mercury. Is that right?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.294706405937888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I—yeah, I would think so. I would certainly think so. For instance, the docking activity. You know, it’s easy to automate the thing. The total navigation system. It’s just—well obviously we have all sorts of unmanned satellites doing all kind of things in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working with Max Faget, were you not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh, yes. Very closely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was designing. You were taking the design and putting it, as you say, into “artful form.” I understand that you even designed portholes (no windows) in the original Mercury. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a port, yeah. I suppose. I’m not quite sure the difference between a porthole and a window, except a porthole is generally small and a window is larger, somebody might say. But, and if you remember, Mercury ended up with a thing called a periscope. And it turned out to be not a very satisfactory device. But, you know, it was clear that the man; he’s got two eyes—the best instruments there ever were. Two—those two eyes. And to deny they—those eyes the—a port to look out is kind of silly. That same thing came up in Skylab years later. It’s that same argument."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of navigation aids also called “stars.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.883007117708765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh, yes. Very closely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was designing. You were taking the design and putting it, as you say, into “artful form.” I understand that you even designed portholes (no windows) in the original Mercury. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a port, yeah. I suppose. I’m not quite sure the difference between a porthole and a window, except a porthole is generally small and a window is larger, somebody might say. But, and if you remember, Mercury ended up with a thing called a periscope. And it turned out to be not a very satisfactory device. But, you know, it was clear that the man; he’s got two eyes—the best instruments there ever were. Two—those two eyes. And to deny they—those eyes the—a port to look out is kind of silly. That same thing came up in Skylab years later. It’s that same argument."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of navigation aids also called “stars.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can see them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.53667457523196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a port, yeah. I suppose. I’m not quite sure the difference between a porthole and a window, except a porthole is generally small and a window is larger, somebody might say. But, and if you remember, Mercury ended up with a thing called a periscope. And it turned out to be not a very satisfactory device. But, you know, it was clear that the man; he’s got two eyes—the best instruments there ever were. Two—those two eyes. And to deny they—those eyes the—a port to look out is kind of silly. That same thing came up in Skylab years later. It’s that same argument."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of navigation aids also called “stars.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can see them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Mercury interface between the capsule and the rocket was a big contribution. I understand that was a matter of some concern for you. Was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.262971750257734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can see them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Mercury interface between the capsule and the rocket was a big contribution. I understand that was a matter of some concern for you. Was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.847746389175259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Mercury interface between the capsule and the rocket was a big contribution. I understand that was a matter of some concern for you. Was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at that time the only candidate launch vehicles were things like the Redstone rocket and the Atlas, neither of—neither one were designed with the idea of putting the Mercury on the end of the thing. So, they were designed to their own particular requirements. We had a heatshield that was vital to the thing that really wasn’t the best thing in the world to be the interface with something. And, so it took a little finagling to make these two completely separately designed objects take the loads, make certain they separated when it was supposed to, and not separate when it wasn’t supposed to. And, so there was a lot of mechanical engineering involved in the thing that you might say had nothing to do with the spaceflight business itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had a lot to do, though, with the way that thing flew."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.49749598797251, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at that time the only candidate launch vehicles were things like the Redstone rocket and the Atlas, neither of—neither one were designed with the idea of putting the Mercury on the end of the thing. So, they were designed to their own particular requirements. We had a heatshield that was vital to the thing that really wasn’t the best thing in the world to be the interface with something. And, so it took a little finagling to make these two completely separately designed objects take the loads, make certain they separated when it was supposed to, and not separate when it wasn’t supposed to. And, so there was a lot of mechanical engineering involved in the thing that you might say had nothing to do with the spaceflight business itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had a lot to do, though, with the way that thing flew."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d you come up with that design?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.108328875525011, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at that time the only candidate launch vehicles were things like the Redstone rocket and the Atlas, neither of—neither one were designed with the idea of putting the Mercury on the end of the thing. So, they were designed to their own particular requirements. We had a heatshield that was vital to the thing that really wasn’t the best thing in the world to be the interface with something. And, so it took a little finagling to make these two completely separately designed objects take the loads, make certain they separated when it was supposed to, and not separate when it wasn’t supposed to. And, so there was a lot of mechanical engineering involved in the thing that you might say had nothing to do with the spaceflight business itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had a lot to do, though, with the way that thing flew."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d you come up with that design?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had been, you know, in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division—had been doing that all the time in a smaller way. We had ordnance rockets and then we had the test vehicle that went on the front, and they had to be separated after they did their thing. And so, we had had a chance to explore a whole lot of different ideas. Some worked and some didn’t work.\\n\\n There was another thing that we found in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Divisions, that people didn’t know a hell of a lot about the aerodynamics of hypersonic flight. But we found out the hard way that things that had funny shapes—asymmetrical shapes—were more prone to having trouble than things that were more or less bodies of revolution. So, we stuck with those bodies of revolution for a long while until the Shuttle came along. If you notice, everything was essentially a body of revolution. And there were a lot of us that were very much worried about the Shuttle, since it was so clearly not a body of revolution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously, we’re going to get to the Shuttle—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.787032083916679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d you come up with that design?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had been, you know, in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division—had been doing that all the time in a smaller way. We had ordnance rockets and then we had the test vehicle that went on the front, and they had to be separated after they did their thing. And so, we had had a chance to explore a whole lot of different ideas. Some worked and some didn’t work.\\n\\n There was another thing that we found in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Divisions, that people didn’t know a hell of a lot about the aerodynamics of hypersonic flight. But we found out the hard way that things that had funny shapes—asymmetrical shapes—were more prone to having trouble than things that were more or less bodies of revolution. So, we stuck with those bodies of revolution for a long while until the Shuttle came along. If you notice, everything was essentially a body of revolution. And there were a lot of us that were very much worried about the Shuttle, since it was so clearly not a body of revolution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously, we’re going to get to the Shuttle—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—just a little bit later. Right now, let’s stay with Mercury for just—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.541146759907421, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had been, you know, in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division—had been doing that all the time in a smaller way. We had ordnance rockets and then we had the test vehicle that went on the front, and they had to be separated after they did their thing. And so, we had had a chance to explore a whole lot of different ideas. Some worked and some didn’t work.\\n\\n There was another thing that we found in the Pilotless Aircraft Research Divisions, that people didn’t know a hell of a lot about the aerodynamics of hypersonic flight. But we found out the hard way that things that had funny shapes—asymmetrical shapes—were more prone to having trouble than things that were more or less bodies of revolution. So, we stuck with those bodies of revolution for a long while until the Shuttle came along. If you notice, everything was essentially a body of revolution. And there were a lot of us that were very much worried about the Shuttle, since it was so clearly not a body of revolution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously, we’re going to get to the Shuttle—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—just a little bit later. Right now, let’s stay with Mercury for just—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—a bit because here you had a spacecraft that finally was conceived and you flew it on a Redstone rocket, suborbital, testing your wings, as it were, even though there were no wings on that spacecraft obviously. Did the spacecraft evolve at all during the Mercury days? Or did it pretty much remain in the same design for all the flights?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.045718622119357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—just a little bit later. Right now, let’s stay with Mercury for just—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—a bit because here you had a spacecraft that finally was conceived and you flew it on a Redstone rocket, suborbital, testing your wings, as it were, even though there were no wings on that spacecraft obviously. Did the spacecraft evolve at all during the Mercury days? Or did it pretty much remain in the same design for all the flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, it changed a little bit. But by the time it got to actually being flown on the Redstone, things had settled down. And there were very few changes of consequence then; that is, you couldn’t look at it and see any great difference. There had been problems—there was a series called the Little Joe’s and the Big Joe’s, and they were boiler—called boilerplate things designed just to test certain performance characteristics. Now those flights, and they were unmanned of course, suborbital, but they revealed a number of surprises. And that was—it was very important because we caught the thing at a stage of design that you could change the—you might say, the production article without a great deal of cost and trouble. And of course, there was no man involved in it either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you elaborate that point for us just a bit, what you discovered?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.455904011765518, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Whether this blunt body shape would work. But, do you remember there was a Big Joe flight that it did not separate from the Atlas initially? What happened was that the Atlas continued to thrust when it was—not much, but just enough that when it—Mercury tried to separate, the Atlas kept pushing. And the Mercury spacecraft used up all of its control gases trying to turn itself around, to enter the—to enter the atmosphere in the right direction. But it was still being pushed by this great, monstrous Atlas. And it wasted all of its gas trying to turn the whole system around, and it had ran out of gas; and finally the Atlas gave up and fell off, too.\\n\\n But now it was—Mercury was heading in the wrong direction to come in with no control system to turn it around. But it was inherently stable in the other direction, and it turned itself around. Now, we were absolutely delighted at that because here was—it…unexpectedly…[exhibited greater one-]point stability than anyone had thought. Now that—you know, that’s a very satisfying feeling to know that if you had—if you ran out of all your control gases, the damn thing was going to turn around in the right direction anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn’t that the real reason for the ballistic reentry itself, and the shape that you came up with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it—well, the real shape was to take care of the heating problem. Now, it was theorized that it would be stable in this position also. But there were a lot of people that were—would not have thought you could become 180 deg wrong and then turn yourself around. But it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like “I shot an arrow in the air. It came back to Earth, I know not where. But it came back to Earth.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really the point."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.173226679739464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it—well, the real shape was to take care of the heating problem. Now, it was theorized that it would be stable in this position also. But there were a lot of people that were—would not have thought you could become 180 deg wrong and then turn yourself around. But it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like “I shot an arrow in the air. It came back to Earth, I know not where. But it came back to Earth.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really the point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they come down point first because you’ve got feathers on the back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, finally with Mercury then you realized you had a machine that could take men into space. There was something else that had to be learned. How would the man react inside the spacecraft? Did you follow those flights?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.970251866377183, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really the point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they come down point first because you’ve got feathers on the back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, finally with Mercury then you realized you had a machine that could take men into space. There was something else that had to be learned. How would the man react inside the spacecraft? Did you follow those flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course there was just a small group of us; so everybody paid attention to everything. But that really wasn’t my bag. I didn’t design life support systems. I wasn’t—I was interested in the physiology of the man simply because it was a mechanical system as far as I was concerned and he had to be supported mechanically. And so, I was interested in the body structure and how the couch should be made and that sort of thing. And, of course, the man had to be positioned properly in the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I remember correctly, C. C., as Mercury really began, somewhere shortly inside that envelope the President announced after [Alan B.] Shepard’s [Jr.] flight that men were going to go to the Moon."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.855835407085758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they come down point first because you’ve got feathers on the back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, finally with Mercury then you realized you had a machine that could take men into space. There was something else that had to be learned. How would the man react inside the spacecraft? Did you follow those flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course there was just a small group of us; so everybody paid attention to everything. But that really wasn’t my bag. I didn’t design life support systems. I wasn’t—I was interested in the physiology of the man simply because it was a mechanical system as far as I was concerned and he had to be supported mechanically. And so, I was interested in the body structure and how the couch should be made and that sort of thing. And, of course, the man had to be positioned properly in the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I remember correctly, C. C., as Mercury really began, somewhere shortly inside that envelope the President announced after [Alan B.] Shepard’s [Jr.] flight that men were going to go to the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I imagine that created a few changes back at Langley, didn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.617594896761953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course there was just a small group of us; so everybody paid attention to everything. But that really wasn’t my bag. I didn’t design life support systems. I wasn’t—I was interested in the physiology of the man simply because it was a mechanical system as far as I was concerned and he had to be supported mechanically. And so, I was interested in the body structure and how the couch should be made and that sort of thing. And, of course, the man had to be positioned properly in the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I remember correctly, C. C., as Mercury really began, somewhere shortly inside that envelope the President announced after [Alan B.] Shepard’s [Jr.] flight that men were going to go to the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I imagine that created a few changes back at Langley, didn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sure as hell did. You know, it’s one thing to sit around a—the table at noontime and play Pinochle and bullshit. It’s another thing for the President of the United States to all of a sudden tell the world what you’re bullshitting about! You know, “Now, put your money where your mouth is” is what that would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you accept that challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.352883218624392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I imagine that created a few changes back at Langley, didn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sure as hell did. You know, it’s one thing to sit around a—the table at noontime and play Pinochle and bullshit. It’s another thing for the President of the United States to all of a sudden tell the world what you’re bullshitting about! You know, “Now, put your money where your mouth is” is what that would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you accept that challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I—if I knew then what I know now, I’d think I’d have gone to Australia or somewhere and got the hell out of there. But I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn’t."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.16987024291599, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sure as hell did. You know, it’s one thing to sit around a—the table at noontime and play Pinochle and bullshit. It’s another thing for the President of the United States to all of a sudden tell the world what you’re bullshitting about! You know, “Now, put your money where your mouth is” is what that would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you accept that challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I—if I knew then what I know now, I’d think I’d have gone to Australia or somewhere and got the hell out of there. But I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.086259559155543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I think that’s a good thing about being young. You’re not—nothing frightens you much when you’re young. You know, you can lick the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything’s possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in this case, it certainly was possible."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.206955065728382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I think that’s a good thing about being young. You’re not—nothing frightens you much when you’re young. You know, you can lick the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything’s possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in this case, it certainly was possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How soon did you begin designing on Gemini, coming out of Mercury?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 9.118838961920424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in this case, it certainly was possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How soon did you begin designing on Gemini, coming out of Mercury?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I personally didn’t have much to do with Gemini. It—Gemini was really an outgrowth of Mercury. I mean, it’s an extension of Mercury. McDonnell was already set up, and the people that were working on it. And they had learned a lot of things about spacecraft and Mercury and—the organization that did Mercury was all in place. I really never had much to do with things once they got into the factory. Once a job would, say, be turned over to McDonnell Douglas or whoever—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn’t the big thing, though, the big difference (from your point of view) the fact that Gemini was designed to dock with other objects in space. And that’s where you came aboard and said, “Okay, let me go to work.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.576487735467137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How soon did you begin designing on Gemini, coming out of Mercury?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I personally didn’t have much to do with Gemini. It—Gemini was really an outgrowth of Mercury. I mean, it’s an extension of Mercury. McDonnell was already set up, and the people that were working on it. And they had learned a lot of things about spacecraft and Mercury and—the organization that did Mercury was all in place. I really never had much to do with things once they got into the factory. Once a job would, say, be turned over to McDonnell Douglas or whoever—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn’t the big thing, though, the big difference (from your point of view) the fact that Gemini was designed to dock with other objects in space. And that’s where you came aboard and said, “Okay, let me go to work.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, except even then, I—I’m surprised now in telling you this, but—I’m surprised that I was not involved, didn’t involve myself, in that. I think the reason was that we was—had started Apollo. You see, we were working on Apollo before Alan Shepard took his flight. And so, as far as I was concerned, I was deep into Apollo when Gemini was being developed. Now, as it turned out, I wish I had paid some more attention; because some things happened in Apollo that were led by Gemini. For instance, the docking system had a lot to be desired. And it ended up that Apollo inherited some of the concepts from Gemini, which was not a fundamental—not a very good system. And it was later on corrected in Apollo-Soyuz. But that’s another story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we’ll get to that—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.084986372741263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I personally didn’t have much to do with Gemini. It—Gemini was really an outgrowth of Mercury. I mean, it’s an extension of Mercury. McDonnell was already set up, and the people that were working on it. And they had learned a lot of things about spacecraft and Mercury and—the organization that did Mercury was all in place. I really never had much to do with things once they got into the factory. Once a job would, say, be turned over to McDonnell Douglas or whoever—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn’t the big thing, though, the big difference (from your point of view) the fact that Gemini was designed to dock with other objects in space. And that’s where you came aboard and said, “Okay, let me go to work.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, except even then, I—I’m surprised now in telling you this, but—I’m surprised that I was not involved, didn’t involve myself, in that. I think the reason was that we was—had started Apollo. You see, we were working on Apollo before Alan Shepard took his flight. And so, as far as I was concerned, I was deep into Apollo when Gemini was being developed. Now, as it turned out, I wish I had paid some more attention; because some things happened in Apollo that were led by Gemini. For instance, the docking system had a lot to be desired. And it ended up that Apollo inherited some of the concepts from Gemini, which was not a fundamental—not a very good system. And it was later on corrected in Apollo-Soyuz. But that’s another story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we’ll get to that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—part of the story, too, I hope. Didn’t you at one time even consider a paraglider landing system?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.649984858601403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, except even then, I—I’m surprised now in telling you this, but—I’m surprised that I was not involved, didn’t involve myself, in that. I think the reason was that we was—had started Apollo. You see, we were working on Apollo before Alan Shepard took his flight. And so, as far as I was concerned, I was deep into Apollo when Gemini was being developed. Now, as it turned out, I wish I had paid some more attention; because some things happened in Apollo that were led by Gemini. For instance, the docking system had a lot to be desired. And it ended up that Apollo inherited some of the concepts from Gemini, which was not a fundamental—not a very good system. And it was later on corrected in Apollo-Soyuz. But that’s another story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we’ll get to that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—part of the story, too, I hope. Didn’t you at one time even consider a paraglider landing system?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes, yes! And it just—there were so many troubles with that thing, just every time one turned around. But I really shouldn’t talk about Gemini because I didn’t have a, you know—a hell of a lot to do with Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Stay with the chutes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.277760954001559, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—part of the story, too, I hope. Didn’t you at one time even consider a paraglider landing system?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes, yes! And it just—there were so many troubles with that thing, just every time one turned around. But I really shouldn’t talk about Gemini because I didn’t have a, you know—a hell of a lot to do with Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Stay with the chutes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, how did all this preliminary thinking affect the planning for Apollo? Now let’s see. I notice here you once said, “In designing Apollo, the engineers and designers would come to what seemed to be a completely rational design, but it would’ve been achieved in a completely irrational manner.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.975289948890621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes, yes! And it just—there were so many troubles with that thing, just every time one turned around. But I really shouldn’t talk about Gemini because I didn’t have a, you know—a hell of a lot to do with Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Stay with the chutes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, how did all this preliminary thinking affect the planning for Apollo? Now let’s see. I notice here you once said, “In designing Apollo, the engineers and designers would come to what seemed to be a completely rational design, but it would’ve been achieved in a completely irrational manner.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love that quote. Is that true?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.639211054322913, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, how did all this preliminary thinking affect the planning for Apollo? Now let’s see. I notice here you once said, “In designing Apollo, the engineers and designers would come to what seemed to be a completely rational design, but it would’ve been achieved in a completely irrational manner.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love that quote. Is that true?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I—it is true. It’s almost like a—what’s the old story, if you give enough monkeys enough pianos, and one of them will end up playing The Blue Danube or something like that? I don’t know what it is. I think it’s—I—the first place, for some reason or another we were not antagonists. That’s suggested a lot of people that work together are antagonistic, and they are. Somehow or another, there was an exchange of ideas without the feeling that “I have got to win my argument.” And that people would listen to what someone else said; and then think about it and say, “Well, maybe that’s not a bad idea after all.” And I think that had a hell of a lot.\\n\\n Now that’s not really a rational process, I suppose. You know, people would—I’m not doing this very well. If I could do this very well, we would do everything right. You know that statement was—has been made about juries. Oftentimes I’ve heard lawyers say that, that a bunch of the most ill-informed people that do nothing but argue and fume and fuss and have got different points of view, and they’ve already made up their minds before they go—somehow, 9 times out of 10, they come up with a reasonable verdict. Twelve people. You say, “Well, how in the hell did they ever do it?” But they seem to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in this case you had a big mix them and match them. You had the von Braun team in Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama]—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.376901171469903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love that quote. Is that true?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I—it is true. It’s almost like a—what’s the old story, if you give enough monkeys enough pianos, and one of them will end up playing The Blue Danube or something like that? I don’t know what it is. I think it’s—I—the first place, for some reason or another we were not antagonists. That’s suggested a lot of people that work together are antagonistic, and they are. Somehow or another, there was an exchange of ideas without the feeling that “I have got to win my argument.” And that people would listen to what someone else said; and then think about it and say, “Well, maybe that’s not a bad idea after all.” And I think that had a hell of a lot.\\n\\n Now that’s not really a rational process, I suppose. You know, people would—I’m not doing this very well. If I could do this very well, we would do everything right. You know that statement was—has been made about juries. Oftentimes I’ve heard lawyers say that, that a bunch of the most ill-informed people that do nothing but argue and fume and fuss and have got different points of view, and they’ve already made up their minds before they go—somehow, 9 times out of 10, they come up with a reasonable verdict. Twelve people. You say, “Well, how in the hell did they ever do it?” But they seem to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in this case you had a big mix them and match them. You had the von Braun team in Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama]—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you had your team—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.196556857188781, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I—it is true. It’s almost like a—what’s the old story, if you give enough monkeys enough pianos, and one of them will end up playing The Blue Danube or something like that? I don’t know what it is. I think it’s—I—the first place, for some reason or another we were not antagonists. That’s suggested a lot of people that work together are antagonistic, and they are. Somehow or another, there was an exchange of ideas without the feeling that “I have got to win my argument.” And that people would listen to what someone else said; and then think about it and say, “Well, maybe that’s not a bad idea after all.” And I think that had a hell of a lot.\\n\\n Now that’s not really a rational process, I suppose. You know, people would—I’m not doing this very well. If I could do this very well, we would do everything right. You know that statement was—has been made about juries. Oftentimes I’ve heard lawyers say that, that a bunch of the most ill-informed people that do nothing but argue and fume and fuss and have got different points of view, and they’ve already made up their minds before they go—somehow, 9 times out of 10, they come up with a reasonable verdict. Twelve people. You say, “Well, how in the hell did they ever do it?” But they seem to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in this case you had a big mix them and match them. You had the von Braun team in Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama]—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you had your team—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—which was here in Houston by that time. No, let’s see. We’re still back in the Gemini days."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.107285396876424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you had your team—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—which was here in Houston by that time. No, let’s see. We’re still back in the Gemini days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You haven’t even come to Houston."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.11920599652936, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—which was here in Houston by that time. No, let’s see. We’re still back in the Gemini days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You haven’t even come to Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were still—where you were during that period? At Langley, or getting ready to move to here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.243562218365955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You haven’t even come to Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were still—where you were during that period? At Langley, or getting ready to move to here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting ready to move to here. In fact, I—Gemini was really got going after we moved here I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Apollo, of course, is—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.492846909295507, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were still—where you were during that period? At Langley, or getting ready to move to here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting ready to move to here. In fact, I—Gemini was really got going after we moved here I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Apollo, of course, is—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—is really—the planning phases for Apollo started coming together after the move to Houston. Is that what you’re saying?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.76982989921723, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting ready to move to here. In fact, I—Gemini was really got going after we moved here I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Apollo, of course, is—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—is really—the planning phases for Apollo started coming together after the move to Houston. Is that what you’re saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We had a letter contract with North American before we left Virginia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why North American instead of Rockwell? I mean, instead of McDonnell Douglas?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.077588776908033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—is really—the planning phases for Apollo started coming together after the move to Houston. Is that what you’re saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We had a letter contract with North American before we left Virginia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why North American instead of Rockwell? I mean, instead of McDonnell Douglas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, McDonnell Douglas, first place they had Gemini. And Mercury was still going. Like I said, you know, all this happened before Alan Shepard took his first flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, a new contractor who’s—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.371178020449975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, a new contractor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—obviously—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beside, I remember doing the evaluation of the Apollo proposals all the many companies put in. Alan Shepard was on this team I was chairing. And he wouldn’t come to the meetings. And I said, “You know,” I said, “come on, Alan.” I said, “I know you—I know that you’ve got the hots for North American, but, you know, let’s give this a proper try and score them like everybody else.” He says, “It’s hopeless. They’re going to win anyway.” And I said, “Well, we’ve got to go through the—I don’t know that you’re right, but in any case nobody asked us to just give an offhand opinion. They want us to evaluate the whole damn thing.” Well, anyway, it turns out Alan was right. And later on, I said, “How—why were you so damn sure?” He said, “Well, I reasoned that they were just flying high, wide, and handsome with a—” you know, they’d done some supersonic flights and all. Hypersonic flights with the—what is that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "X-15."}, {"role": "user", "content": "X-15, yeah. And they were on the West Coast. The West Coast needed some money. They were—it was about a disaster area at that time. Convair was folding up and everybody. And he said, “You know, anybody can figure out what’s going to happen.” He said, “It don’tmake any difference how we score this. It’s going to be somebody else.” Now I daresay—say in hindsight, that’s probably as good a way to decide something as any other way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But as you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.745753356055527, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beside, I remember doing the evaluation of the Apollo proposals all the many companies put in. Alan Shepard was on this team I was chairing. And he wouldn’t come to the meetings. And I said, “You know,” I said, “come on, Alan.” I said, “I know you—I know that you’ve got the hots for North American, but, you know, let’s give this a proper try and score them like everybody else.” He says, “It’s hopeless. They’re going to win anyway.” And I said, “Well, we’ve got to go through the—I don’t know that you’re right, but in any case nobody asked us to just give an offhand opinion. They want us to evaluate the whole damn thing.” Well, anyway, it turns out Alan was right. And later on, I said, “How—why were you so damn sure?” He said, “Well, I reasoned that they were just flying high, wide, and handsome with a—” you know, they’d done some supersonic flights and all. Hypersonic flights with the—what is that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "X-15."}, {"role": "user", "content": "X-15, yeah. And they were on the West Coast. The West Coast needed some money. They were—it was about a disaster area at that time. Convair was folding up and everybody. And he said, “You know, anybody can figure out what’s going to happen.” He said, “It don’tmake any difference how we score this. It’s going to be somebody else.” Now I daresay—say in hindsight, that’s probably as good a way to decide something as any other way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But as you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, that’s how—that’s how—apparently that’s how the North American got their job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—as you began to look at Apollo, here you were mixing the Centers—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.273059284506141, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "X-15, yeah. And they were on the West Coast. The West Coast needed some money. They were—it was about a disaster area at that time. Convair was folding up and everybody. And he said, “You know, anybody can figure out what’s going to happen.” He said, “It don’tmake any difference how we score this. It’s going to be somebody else.” Now I daresay—say in hindsight, that’s probably as good a way to decide something as any other way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But as you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, that’s how—that’s how—apparently that’s how the North American got their job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—as you began to look at Apollo, here you were mixing the Centers—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—coming into a whole new arena. For the first time you weren’t flying on a missile anymore. You were flying on a rocket designed to fly as a rocket."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.81018028426481, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like a Tower of Babel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—a little difficult, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You can’t even—you can’t even do this when you—when you’re all in the same country. How in the hell are you going to do it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet as I remember that era, you had a tremendous spokesman as well as a powerful engineer. His name was von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work closely with him at all? Or was he on the other side of that big piece of plywood you put up?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 17.566866982516455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You can’t even—you can’t even do this when you—when you’re all in the same country. How in the hell are you going to do it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet as I remember that era, you had a tremendous spokesman as well as a powerful engineer. His name was von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work closely with him at all? Or was he on the other side of that big piece of plywood you put up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he was on the other side as far as I was concerned. But obviously, we—it—at some level in the NASA hierarchy that piece of plywood didn’t exist. But I just meant engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mix was upstairs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.514650595699326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he was on the other side as far as I was concerned. But obviously, we—it—at some level in the NASA hierarchy that piece of plywood didn’t exist. But I just meant engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mix was upstairs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a remarkable man. I didn’t know him personally very much, but I had come in contact and seen what he did. If you remember, a lot of people said, “Well, he’s just a silver-tongued devil and makes a great spokesman and, you know, he’s managed to keep his German accent after he’s been here 40 years,” and all this kind of thing. But I can remember on one occasion I’d gone to Marshall to discuss something that—we were at loggerheads about something. And we talked and talked and talked. And we argued. And neither one of us wanted to yield a point of—it’s almost like we didn’t even want to solve the damn problem. I mean, we didn’t want to agree. And we got back together after lunch. And all of a sudden von Braun walks in. And he said, “How are you guys doing?” And we had to admit that we were kind of stalled out. And he said, “Well, what’s the problem?” And somehow or another we told him the problem. He said, “Well, the solution is simple. Do this and this and this.” And we agreed that it was a very reasonable suggestion he made, and so we settled it—he settled the damn thing in about 15 minutes, and we had been spending—we had spent the whole damn morning arguing about it! So—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—so he was not just a figurehead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was an engineer."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.23850066188814, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a remarkable man. I didn’t know him personally very much, but I had come in contact and seen what he did. If you remember, a lot of people said, “Well, he’s just a silver-tongued devil and makes a great spokesman and, you know, he’s managed to keep his German accent after he’s been here 40 years,” and all this kind of thing. But I can remember on one occasion I’d gone to Marshall to discuss something that—we were at loggerheads about something. And we talked and talked and talked. And we argued. And neither one of us wanted to yield a point of—it’s almost like we didn’t even want to solve the damn problem. I mean, we didn’t want to agree. And we got back together after lunch. And all of a sudden von Braun walks in. And he said, “How are you guys doing?” And we had to admit that we were kind of stalled out. And he said, “Well, what’s the problem?” And somehow or another we told him the problem. He said, “Well, the solution is simple. Do this and this and this.” And we agreed that it was a very reasonable suggestion he made, and so we settled it—he settled the damn thing in about 15 minutes, and we had been spending—we had spent the whole damn morning arguing about it! So—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—so he was not just a figurehead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was an engineer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was an engineer, and a good one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A very good engineer."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.153889624320154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—so he was not just a figurehead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was an engineer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was an engineer, and a good one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A very good engineer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got speed. All right. Now we’re going to pick up again. And at this point, we’ve been talking [about] Dr. von Braun."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.28209958257795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was an engineer, and a good one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A very good engineer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got speed. All right. Now we’re going to pick up again. And at this point, we’ve been talking [about] Dr. von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you called him “Wernher.” We all did. But he was “Dr. von Braun,” and he was a militant leader of his people. He was one of the influences at that time over on the propulsion side of the house."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.646777313975498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got speed. All right. Now we’re going to pick up again. And at this point, we’ve been talking [about] Dr. von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you called him “Wernher.” We all did. But he was “Dr. von Braun,” and he was a militant leader of his people. He was one of the influences at that time over on the propulsion side of the house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about some of the people around you, who were building the spacecraft and the roles that they played. Can we do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.96598979487459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—didn’t he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But somehow or another, he didn’t seek to—didn’t seek to stand in front of a lot of people and say a lot. But people listened when he said something. And he waited a while to speak; and then when he said something it was pretty clear that he knew what the hell he was talking about. And what’s more, you’d better damn well do what he was talking about!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you say that essentially he was the boss?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was indeed the boss! There was no question about who was the boss. And you can’t always say that about some things. But he did not come out and make great speeches and say this. But he—I remember once—this is kind of a personal thing about myself with him. I had grown a beard. Don’t ask me why, but I had. It was all the rage at the time. It was a great, bushy thing. And we were in the cafeteria one day, and he said, “Why don’t you—why don’t you shave off that beard?” (It was clear he didn’t like it.) And I said, “Well, I would if I had a good reason to do it.” And he said, “I’ll give you a good reason. You go home and shave that goddamn thing off!” I went home and shaved it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hard to imagine Bob Gilruth—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.517766438749543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But somehow or another, he didn’t seek to—didn’t seek to stand in front of a lot of people and say a lot. But people listened when he said something. And he waited a while to speak; and then when he said something it was pretty clear that he knew what the hell he was talking about. And what’s more, you’d better damn well do what he was talking about!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you say that essentially he was the boss?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was indeed the boss! There was no question about who was the boss. And you can’t always say that about some things. But he did not come out and make great speeches and say this. But he—I remember once—this is kind of a personal thing about myself with him. I had grown a beard. Don’t ask me why, but I had. It was all the rage at the time. It was a great, bushy thing. And we were in the cafeteria one day, and he said, “Why don’t you—why don’t you shave off that beard?” (It was clear he didn’t like it.) And I said, “Well, I would if I had a good reason to do it.” And he said, “I’ll give you a good reason. You go home and shave that goddamn thing off!” I went home and shaved it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hard to imagine Bob Gilruth—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it. But he—and he didn’t say it in a loud voice. He just told me it very quietly. I don’t think anybody else even heard what he said. But I heard what he said!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now let’s take this beast called Apollo from the ground up. How do you design a spacecraft that’s really going to be the center point to fly to the Moon with three people when your total experience up till that time has been along a different line of endeavor? Can you describe the evolution of Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.046625233024127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it. But he—and he didn’t say it in a loud voice. He just told me it very quietly. I don’t think anybody else even heard what he said. But I heard what he said!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now let’s take this beast called Apollo from the ground up. How do you design a spacecraft that’s really going to be the center point to fly to the Moon with three people when your total experience up till that time has been along a different line of endeavor? Can you describe the evolution of Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, let’s just start with the so-called command module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is where—the thing that houses these three guys. It didn’t take long for everyone to agree that a crew of three was the proper number. I think because there was always the possibility that one person would be hurt or disabled, and that would leave two people to manage to get home. At one time, it was—it said, “Well, we—that—with three people you can stand three 8-hour watches per day.” That was probably the shipboard influence that got into the system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of Navy at that time—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.02282141013608, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And all this was going on, you see, when we were at Langley and hadn’t even come to Houston. I have all the old—you know, many old sketches of these configurations and all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Space Task Group moved to Houston at the time of the Gemini series beginning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gemini IV."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s when you actually made your move—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.914246011262307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gemini IV."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s when you actually made your move—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—so as Gemini was beginning to fly, you were making the move. But you had already designed—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.015828901402564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s when you actually made your move—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—so as Gemini was beginning to fly, you were making the move. But you had already designed—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the next generation of spacecraft, and were building. Was there hardware in the loop at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.712282409158554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Charlie [Charles W.] Frick was the Program Manager for the command module. And Charlie knew—he knew that this thing had got to be settled. We could not keep on arguing this and people charging ahead like everything was settled when it wasn’t settled. He managed to convene a great meeting at Marshall with Rockwell (I keep saying “Rockwell,” it’s—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "North American."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—North American)—North American and of course von Braun’s people and us and people from Lewis and I don’t know. That whole 10th floor was just jam packed with people. And everybody got up and gave their little stories and their spiels and saying things that we had all been saying for 2 years. Same goddamn thing. And there was this kind of silence after everybody said anything, you know, what are you going to do? And all of a sudden this guy named John [W.] Paup (P-a-u-p, he spelled his name), he was the Program Manager at North American. He all of a sudden says, “Who’s the son of a bitch here that’s not for lunar orbit rendezvous?” There’s all these people sitting there. Not a soul said a damn word. And John said, “Well, I guess that’s what we’re going to do!” You know. That was the advent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s the way it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you had a design—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.68031378795395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—North American)—North American and of course von Braun’s people and us and people from Lewis and I don’t know. That whole 10th floor was just jam packed with people. And everybody got up and gave their little stories and their spiels and saying things that we had all been saying for 2 years. Same goddamn thing. And there was this kind of silence after everybody said anything, you know, what are you going to do? And all of a sudden this guy named John [W.] Paup (P-a-u-p, he spelled his name), he was the Program Manager at North American. He all of a sudden says, “Who’s the son of a bitch here that’s not for lunar orbit rendezvous?” There’s all these people sitting there. Not a soul said a damn word. And John said, “Well, I guess that’s what we’re going to do!” You know. That was the advent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s the way it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you had a design—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "and things were ready to go. And then as you were finally getting ready to send men up into space, disaster struck."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.755904208837721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you had a design—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "and things were ready to go. And then as you were finally getting ready to send men up into space, disaster struck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. That—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo 1 fire."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.951004676486358, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "and things were ready to go. And then as you were finally getting ready to send men up into space, disaster struck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. That—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo 1 fire."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all of a sudden, the design flaw had been discovered, hadn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.16778297387373, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. That—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo 1 fire."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all of a sudden, the design flaw had been discovered, hadn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was—we made such an obvious mistake that I think that’s how it got by. It was a schoolboy mistake. And, you know, a bunch of us were all involved in it. And we all had better sense (I think we had); but there was one little thing that just escaped us, and none of us thought about that: the fact that it was going to be tested on the ground. Now if it had been that would never have happened in space. But we overlooked that when you pressurize that thing with that much oxygen in it at sea level pressure, that’s a hell of a lot different than the 5 psi that it would see in space. And it was a bomb ready to go off!\\n\\n And, you know, people blamed it on North American for, let’s say, shoddy wiring or something like that. Well, that may have been—that may have been the trigger; but it was a disaster waiting to happen. And it was—would not be fair to blame that on North American. I think all of us that had a place in the decision to use that system should take the blame. Not any one person, but collectively, we should have known better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a valid reason for using that system, wasn’t there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.519758859859701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all of a sudden, the design flaw had been discovered, hadn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was—we made such an obvious mistake that I think that’s how it got by. It was a schoolboy mistake. And, you know, a bunch of us were all involved in it. And we all had better sense (I think we had); but there was one little thing that just escaped us, and none of us thought about that: the fact that it was going to be tested on the ground. Now if it had been that would never have happened in space. But we overlooked that when you pressurize that thing with that much oxygen in it at sea level pressure, that’s a hell of a lot different than the 5 psi that it would see in space. And it was a bomb ready to go off!\\n\\n And, you know, people blamed it on North American for, let’s say, shoddy wiring or something like that. Well, that may have been—that may have been the trigger; but it was a disaster waiting to happen. And it was—would not be fair to blame that on North American. I think all of us that had a place in the decision to use that system should take the blame. Not any one person, but collectively, we should have known better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a valid reason for using that system, wasn’t there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was, but it was not a good enough reason. If we had really thought about the hazardous situation on the ground testing, I know we would have never gone that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you have done it differently?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.518220814641605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was, but it was not a good enough reason. If we had really thought about the hazardous situation on the ground testing, I know we would have never gone that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you have done it differently?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would’ve made a more complex system and accepted the complications of changing the atmosphere in flight, which we ended up doing. That’s what we ended up doing. And the reason—the first place the reason that there was a pure oxygen atmosphere in there was, at that time, we—our pressure garments were not developed as well as they are now. If you had more than about 5 psi (5 pounds of square inch of pressure) in these suits, they became so stiff that the men couldn’t do anything, you know. The medical people had said, “Well, we need the 5 pounds of square inch for metabolic reasons.” Now it turned out they didn’t.\\n\\n People in Denver don’t have that. People in Denver only have 3. And in Mexico City. But anyway, that was, you know—that was a little mistake. We could’ve made a different pressure suit. But anyway, we ended up with the 5 psi of oxygen. What we didn’t think about is that when we’re on Earth in sea level pressure that it would not be 5; it would be 15! And, you know, in principle it’s no different. But in fact, that partial pressure of oxygen is just a bomb. If you filled this room with that and, you know, one spark and the whole room would just poom! We’d be gone. So, it was a terrible mistake. You can’t undo it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You redesigned around it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the redesign work? What did it do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.281754092150129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the redesign work? What did it do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it changed—it—while on sea level, the thing had an atmosphere more or less like what we breathe here right now. But as it ascended…[it reduced cabin air pressure to stay within 5 psig, and added oxygen as necessary.] More complicated but it works. It works all right. Now it all started because that pressure garment would not hold anymore pressure than this. And so our whole command module was only designed for 5 psi; and later on, when you get to Apollo-Soyuz, that gave us a problem with docking with Soyuz because they were designed for sea level pressure. And so, we had to build that—if you remember that intermediate module in between them? There was an airlock so you could go from one to the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think we’re working our way slowly toward that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s continue and finish up with—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.31306010238903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it changed—it—while on sea level, the thing had an atmosphere more or less like what we breathe here right now. But as it ascended…[it reduced cabin air pressure to stay within 5 psig, and added oxygen as necessary.] More complicated but it works. It works all right. Now it all started because that pressure garment would not hold anymore pressure than this. And so our whole command module was only designed for 5 psi; and later on, when you get to Apollo-Soyuz, that gave us a problem with docking with Soyuz because they were designed for sea level pressure. And so, we had to build that—if you remember that intermediate module in between them? There was an airlock so you could go from one to the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think we’re working our way slowly toward that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s continue and finish up with—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Apollo, and then we’ll move through Skylab into Apollo-Soyuz. Right now, here we are: the next major thing that came along, other than the fact, the obvious fact, we flew to the Moon. That must have been a tremendous moment for all of you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.458955669321146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s continue and finish up with—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Apollo, and then we’ll move through Skylab into Apollo-Soyuz. Right now, here we are: the next major thing that came along, other than the fact, the obvious fact, we flew to the Moon. That must have been a tremendous moment for all of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh boy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually making it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.732172965912383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Apollo, and then we’ll move through Skylab into Apollo-Soyuz. Right now, here we are: the next major thing that came along, other than the fact, the obvious fact, we flew to the Moon. That must have been a tremendous moment for all of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh boy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually making it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s unbelievable. I—you know, my mother—my mother, she knew I worked on all this. And she said, “You don’t really think that happened either?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And she said—she said, “I watch television. You know what they do on television. They fake all kind of things.” And I said—she said, “Were you there?” “Well, no, mama, I wasn’t.” “Well, how do you know that you were not fooled along with all the rest of us?” Well, I must admit she had a point. I really wasn’t there. And I got fooled about a lot of things, so—anyway I don’t think I ever convinced my mother. I think she went to her grave not quite sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you really think that NASA staged the event in the desert?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.924636628791536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh boy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually making it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s unbelievable. I—you know, my mother—my mother, she knew I worked on all this. And she said, “You don’t really think that happened either?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And she said—she said, “I watch television. You know what they do on television. They fake all kind of things.” And I said—she said, “Were you there?” “Well, no, mama, I wasn’t.” “Well, how do you know that you were not fooled along with all the rest of us?” Well, I must admit she had a point. I really wasn’t there. And I got fooled about a lot of things, so—anyway I don’t think I ever convinced my mother. I think she went to her grave not quite sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you really think that NASA staged the event in the desert?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA doesn’t have that much sense to do that. I think ABC or CBS might get away with doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad you didn’t say “NBC” in that context."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.249596254212817, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s unbelievable. I—you know, my mother—my mother, she knew I worked on all this. And she said, “You don’t really think that happened either?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And she said—she said, “I watch television. You know what they do on television. They fake all kind of things.” And I said—she said, “Were you there?” “Well, no, mama, I wasn’t.” “Well, how do you know that you were not fooled along with all the rest of us?” Well, I must admit she had a point. I really wasn’t there. And I got fooled about a lot of things, so—anyway I don’t think I ever convinced my mother. I think she went to her grave not quite sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you really think that NASA staged the event in the desert?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA doesn’t have that much sense to do that. I think ABC or CBS might get away with doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad you didn’t say “NBC” in that context."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was careful not to say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you kindly, sir. Well, the next big thing then that happened, though outside of the obvious (which was a success), was failure in terms of Apollo 13."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.721773615792019, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA doesn’t have that much sense to do that. I think ABC or CBS might get away with doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad you didn’t say “NBC” in that context."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was careful not to say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you kindly, sir. Well, the next big thing then that happened, though outside of the obvious (which was a success), was failure in terms of Apollo 13."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I can’t, you know, speak technically about that much because that cryogenic system, I—,you know, I understand how it works and all that. But I’m not sure of the mechanics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t your area of expertise."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.35752623976891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was careful not to say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you kindly, sir. Well, the next big thing then that happened, though outside of the obvious (which was a success), was failure in terms of Apollo 13."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I can’t, you know, speak technically about that much because that cryogenic system, I—,you know, I understand how it works and all that. But I’m not sure of the mechanics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t your area of expertise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, why don’t we then move out and beyond."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.175029155298787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I can’t, you know, speak technically about that much because that cryogenic system, I—,you know, I understand how it works and all that. But I’m not sure of the mechanics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t your area of expertise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, why don’t we then move out and beyond."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because now Apollo has gone to the Moon. It’s performed its functions. And the time had come for, not an adaptation but for another spacecraft: a space station to be called Skylab."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.194476839220876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, why don’t we then move out and beyond."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because now Apollo has gone to the Moon. It’s performed its functions. And the time had come for, not an adaptation but for another spacecraft: a space station to be called Skylab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work on it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 22.438307599134305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because now Apollo has gone to the Moon. It’s performed its functions. And the time had come for, not an adaptation but for another spacecraft: a space station to be called Skylab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work on it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I sure did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did—what did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 21.707916474680868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We tackled everything that way. You know, we said, “Why change it from Earth unless you have to do it?” The cabinets and all. People went around inventing new latches on cabinet doors. Ace Hardware has worked on cabinet latches for a zillion years. They know all about it. Some of the engineers designed special ones that will break the first damn time anybody uses them! You know, some of the NASA guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what did you do? Go to the hardware store?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Literally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us a little about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.74693301271972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then when you had the chance to see them work, when you saw Pete [Charles C.] Conrad [Jr.] running the Skylab 500 up there and Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin exercising—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—in space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There you saw the reality of your dream, didn’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.385481125244134, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—in space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There you saw the reality of your dream, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But before that could happen, you had to fix that machine. Because when it first went up there, it didn’t quite take the right position."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.20609013916015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There you saw the reality of your dream, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But before that could happen, you had to fix that machine. Because when it first went up there, it didn’t quite take the right position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe that for us? And how the fix was made?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 20.228989043511277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But before that could happen, you had to fix that machine. Because when it first went up there, it didn’t quite take the right position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe that for us? And how the fix was made?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, everyone was—everyone was shocked when—after the launch, we found out that one of the—one array was gone and the other one didn’t deploy and—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "These are solar arrays, you’re talking about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.018120779623953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And you know, it could still happen. It’s not like that’s the only time it’s going to happen. No reason why it can’t happen again with things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s kind of the history of the space program, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Use your ingenuity to make up—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—for what you don’t know."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.13124531069328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Use your ingenuity to make up—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—for what you don’t know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would’ve been so easy to have given up. You know, that first 24 hours after it, it would’ve been so easy for everybody to say, “Gee, that’s tough.” But somewhere along the line, somebody said, you know, “Goddamn it, we’re going to fix it!”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you—would you like to have seen the Skylab stay up there? Or were you one of the group that said, “Let’s bring it back. It’s time has been served.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.256939234103646, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—for what you don’t know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would’ve been so easy to have given up. You know, that first 24 hours after it, it would’ve been so easy for everybody to say, “Gee, that’s tough.” But somewhere along the line, somebody said, you know, “Goddamn it, we’re going to fix it!”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you—would you like to have seen the Skylab stay up there? Or were you one of the group that said, “Let’s bring it back. It’s time has been served.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I’m embarrassed every time I think about it. We had a crackerjack space station there; and we—you know, if you look at our history in the spaceflight business, we never plan for anything to last long. Every program was dead end. I don’t even think we wanted anything to last. It was too much fun building new things. We had that marvelous Saturn V. The greatest machine that was ever built! And the only one left is sitting over here in the visitors’ place, and here and now, nowhere else. That great machine. Mercury, you know, abandoned it. Abandoned Gemini. And abandoned Apollo. Left Skylab, you know, just—“Yeah, what the hell, we’ll build a new one.” It’s that kind of attitude. It’s almost—it’s almost like the Agency doesn’t want anything to last!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Isn’t that the American way—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.897455844572402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I’m embarrassed every time I think about it. We had a crackerjack space station there; and we—you know, if you look at our history in the spaceflight business, we never plan for anything to last long. Every program was dead end. I don’t even think we wanted anything to last. It was too much fun building new things. We had that marvelous Saturn V. The greatest machine that was ever built! And the only one left is sitting over here in the visitors’ place, and here and now, nowhere else. That great machine. Mercury, you know, abandoned it. Abandoned Gemini. And abandoned Apollo. Left Skylab, you know, just—“Yeah, what the hell, we’ll build a new one.” It’s that kind of attitude. It’s almost—it’s almost like the Agency doesn’t want anything to last!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Isn’t that the American way—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—with automobiles—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the same way?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.441617605080447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—with automobiles—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the same way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess—I guess that’s what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course, one thing that was done next after Skylab, there was something called Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.15735289453383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the same way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess—I guess that’s what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course, one thing that was done next after Skylab, there was something called Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a matter of fact, there was a split in the road right there; and you worked on Apollo-Soyuz as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.06372543837092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess—I guess that’s what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course, one thing that was done next after Skylab, there was something called Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a matter of fact, there was a split in the road right there; and you worked on Apollo-Soyuz as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 21.181917153745466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a matter of fact, there was a split in the road right there; and you worked on Apollo-Soyuz as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Out of a clear blue sky, there came some message from Headquarters—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re about to catch that big time alarm. Do you want to—\n\nSay when. We were just about to start talking another project on which you worked: Apollo-Soyuz. ASTP. What do you remember? How did that begin to go together? It was kind of a divergent program, moving away from things."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.535736147089638, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But we taught them—we taught them how to spend money that they didn’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They’re still doing it, aren’t they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, it was—they were great people to work with. The technical people. They put their first team there. They didn’t have a lot of bench strength. But they had a crackerjack first team. And everyone was cooperative. We didn’t talk politics. We didn’t have anything—you know, nothing like that went on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first time, you were able to see Russian engineering."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.150817941210709, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, it was—they were great people to work with. The technical people. They put their first team there. They didn’t have a lot of bench strength. But they had a crackerjack first team. And everyone was cooperative. We didn’t talk politics. We didn’t have anything—you know, nothing like that went on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first time, you were able to see Russian engineering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What you saw. Did it surprise you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.834242156900788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, it was—they were great people to work with. The technical people. They put their first team there. They didn’t have a lot of bench strength. But they had a crackerjack first team. And everyone was cooperative. We didn’t talk politics. We didn’t have anything—you know, nothing like that went on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first time, you were able to see Russian engineering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What you saw. Did it surprise you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn’t surprised because they had been doing some great things. But I really didn’t expect to personally run into so many guys that were really crackerjack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you learn anything from them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.48249128544532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What you saw. Did it surprise you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn’t surprised because they had been doing some great things. But I really didn’t expect to personally run into so many guys that were really crackerjack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you learn anything from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You know, a lot of things that they—and—now one thing they did have a problem with: They didn’t trust one another as much as they trusted us. Now this sounds surprising. I mean, in little things. A fellow asked me, he said, “Will you give me a certain—some information I need?” And I said, “I don’t have it with me, but I will—I’ll send it to you when I get back.” Later on I saw him, and he said, “You never sent me what you told me you would.” And I said, “Yeah, I gave it to Ivan” or somebody else, you know, “to give to you when you got back.” And he said, “Don’t ever do that! He’s not going to give it to me. He’s going to keep it for himself.” Now, we would never think about doing a thing like that. But I guess they were not quite as sure of themselves, and were kind of protecting each—protecting themselves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you look at what you learned of the Russian space program, had theirs followed a similar track to yours?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.202768094939245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn’t surprised because they had been doing some great things. But I really didn’t expect to personally run into so many guys that were really crackerjack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you learn anything from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You know, a lot of things that they—and—now one thing they did have a problem with: They didn’t trust one another as much as they trusted us. Now this sounds surprising. I mean, in little things. A fellow asked me, he said, “Will you give me a certain—some information I need?” And I said, “I don’t have it with me, but I will—I’ll send it to you when I get back.” Later on I saw him, and he said, “You never sent me what you told me you would.” And I said, “Yeah, I gave it to Ivan” or somebody else, you know, “to give to you when you got back.” And he said, “Don’t ever do that! He’s not going to give it to me. He’s going to keep it for himself.” Now, we would never think about doing a thing like that. But I guess they were not quite as sure of themselves, and were kind of protecting each—protecting themselves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you look at what you learned of the Russian space program, had theirs followed a similar track to yours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They just flat didn’t have the money. They—everywhere you went, you could see that they made do with things that we wouldn’t make do with. Their labs had wooden oil floors. The plaster was cracked on the walls. There were light bulbs hanging down on a cord that you reached up and turned the switch. You know, all their equipment was kind of crummy, crummy stuff. Now they made up for it with industry. They worked hard and very conscientious people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it lead you to wonder how, with that background, they were able to fly the complex machines necessary to go in space?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 8.003075661043605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You know, a lot of things that they—and—now one thing they did have a problem with: They didn’t trust one another as much as they trusted us. Now this sounds surprising. I mean, in little things. A fellow asked me, he said, “Will you give me a certain—some information I need?” And I said, “I don’t have it with me, but I will—I’ll send it to you when I get back.” Later on I saw him, and he said, “You never sent me what you told me you would.” And I said, “Yeah, I gave it to Ivan” or somebody else, you know, “to give to you when you got back.” And he said, “Don’t ever do that! He’s not going to give it to me. He’s going to keep it for himself.” Now, we would never think about doing a thing like that. But I guess they were not quite as sure of themselves, and were kind of protecting each—protecting themselves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you look at what you learned of the Russian space program, had theirs followed a similar track to yours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They just flat didn’t have the money. They—everywhere you went, you could see that they made do with things that we wouldn’t make do with. Their labs had wooden oil floors. The plaster was cracked on the walls. There were light bulbs hanging down on a cord that you reached up and turned the switch. You know, all their equipment was kind of crummy, crummy stuff. Now they made up for it with industry. They worked hard and very conscientious people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it lead you to wonder how, with that background, they were able to fly the complex machines necessary to go in space?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but they did it because they just worked hard. The guys working on it just plain worked hard. They didn’t spare themselves, you know. They were really dedicated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they learn from you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.472932914868648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but they did it because they just worked hard. The guys working on it just plain worked hard. They didn’t spare themselves, you know. They were really dedicated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they learn from you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think they kind of marveled at all the things we’ve got. I remember, we took a couple of IBM typewriters over with us because we—you know, we needed some—something there. And those poor girls there in the offices, they looked at those IBM electrics and they had these old mechanical clunkers and all, you know. Clunk, clunk. Making 12 carbons. And make a mistake, and they have to erase all 12 carbons. And there we had that goddamn Selectric, you know, and you know. And they just—they just marveled at it.\\n\\n The Xerox machines. When they first saw a Xerox machine, they said, you know, “Anybody just walks up and makes a copy.” They said, “Why don’t you make money?” And I said, “Well, that’s not considered cricket.” They couldn’t understand why everybody didn’t just go up and make all the dollar bills. They were a great bunch, though. I still see Syromyatnikov occasionally. He comes here when the Shuttle and Mir were docking. You see, he was a docking guy. And he would be in Mission Control here doing those operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think at the time of ASTP—did you think at the time that we would wind up literally with the International Space Station at some point in the future?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Why sure, I knew it was going—you know, that’s what we were really working towards. There wasn’t much point in doing Apollo-Soyuz if it didn’t kind of demonstrate that it’s reasonable to do these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was in the thinking then—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.769140245189221, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—even then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And of course, if you’re going to assemble things in orbit, you’re—as far as I was concerned, you had to have a docking system. And from Lunney’s standpoint, there has to be a communication system and an agreement on operational protocols to do this. And so, this was all paving the way. And I’m sure the Russians must’ve had that in mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were laying the groundwork for the future."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:365", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.187933605765801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And of course, if you’re going to assemble things in orbit, you’re—as far as I was concerned, you had to have a docking system. And from Lunney’s standpoint, there has to be a communication system and an agreement on operational protocols to do this. And so, this was all paving the way. And I’m sure the Russians must’ve had that in mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were laying the groundwork for the future."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, something else that happened just about that same time. It was the advent of something called Space Shuttle."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:367", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.653259561962001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And of course, if you’re going to assemble things in orbit, you’re—as far as I was concerned, you had to have a docking system. And from Lunney’s standpoint, there has to be a communication system and an agreement on operational protocols to do this. And so, this was all paving the way. And I’m sure the Russians must’ve had that in mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were laying the groundwork for the future."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, something else that happened just about that same time. It was the advent of something called Space Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You and Faget got deeply involved with that, didn’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.170288402180001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, something else that happened just about that same time. It was the advent of something called Space Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You and Faget got deeply involved with that, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us a little about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.6336537802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You and Faget got deeply involved with that, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us a little about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we—I think what really happened—now this is a terrible thing to say, but I think we got bored. You know, Apollo was flying great; and Skylab was hanging around and all this kind of thing. And, you know, why—let’s have a—let’s have a Space Shuttle. Everybody wanted to have, you know, something really challenging to do. And he and I got thinking about it, and we had a configuration that he and I decided to build a model of it. I was going to build the booster part, and he was going to build the manned spacecraft. And it was—it was a horrible thing. It didn’t perform at all well, you know; and we talked to Mr. Gilruth and he said, “You guys ought to know better. That thing you’ve got, any fool knows that that is—”\\n\\n He explained some of the aerodynamics of the thing, and Max and I really were embarrassed because we should’ve known better. Here we’re supposed to be a hotshot spacecraft design, but we made a bunch of schoolboy mistakes on the thing. Gilruth took one look at it and showed us what was wrong with it. It didn’t end up being anything like that. But—fortunately—but we went through—we must’ve gone through 3 or 4 dozen configurations of the Shuttle. Of different concepts and things in—in the course of finally arriving at what it turned out to be, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the specifications against which you were trying to design? What were you really trying to build?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.6126938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was a conflict with the Air Force. The Air Force had something in mind that didn’t—was not the same as what NASA’s objective would be. But I presume in the politics of the thing, there had to be some sort of meeting of the mind because, without the Air Force support, we would’ve never got the Shuttle. So, for instance, the cross-range capability during entry. The military was interesting in a great cross range so they could land where they wanted to in one orbit, at any given time could get back.\\n\\n Now that is—is not—not necessary at all for this Shuttle’s missions these days, these so-called scientific missions. That’s not necessary at all; but you can understand in the military it might’ve been very important to—to get back on a moment’s notice. And things like that. Its lift weight and the size of the payload bay was [sic] really much—it’s—it’s more space there than the—than the thing can lift. That is generally speaking if you filled up the cargo bay in Shuttle, it generally would end up too heavy. But it got off. It got worked out. And it turned out the Air Force never really used it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they used it a couple of times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I mean it was never used for what it was—I don’t know exactly what it was intended for. But it was never used to that capacity, to my knowledge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that brings us around to your look, based on your knowledge of the past—your look at the future as to whether this country’s space program is moving in a good direction, in a different direction, and do you see a future in space? Do you see people in the future doing—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—what you did in the past?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7918820000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I mean it was never used for what it was—I don’t know exactly what it was intended for. But it was never used to that capacity, to my knowledge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that brings us around to your look, based on your knowledge of the past—your look at the future as to whether this country’s space program is moving in a good direction, in a different direction, and do you see a future in space? Do you see people in the future doing—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—what you did in the past?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, sure, sure. I can’t believe people will be content to stay on Earth. I just can’t believe it. Any more than they were content to stay in Europe or to stay in Asia. You know, another continent beckoned and there’s another mountain to climb just for the hell of climbing it, you know. Beside we—we’re apparently overpopulating ourselves. So, sooner or later we’ll have to do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back on it—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9909800000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—what you did in the past?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, sure, sure. I can’t believe people will be content to stay on Earth. I just can’t believe it. Any more than they were content to stay in Europe or to stay in Asia. You know, another continent beckoned and there’s another mountain to climb just for the hell of climbing it, you know. Beside we—we’re apparently overpopulating ourselves. So, sooner or later we’ll have to do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back on it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—C. C., I think you found yourself in the right place at the right time didn’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, sure, sure. I can’t believe people will be content to stay on Earth. I just can’t believe it. Any more than they were content to stay in Europe or to stay in Asia. You know, another continent beckoned and there’s another mountain to climb just for the hell of climbing it, you know. Beside we—we’re apparently overpopulating ourselves. So, sooner or later we’ll have to do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back on it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—C. C., I think you found yourself in the right place at the right time didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d better believe it. It’s—I just happened to catch one of those waves, baby, and we rode them—rode it right to shore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you know we’ve been talking for quite a while now. I want to give you the opportunity to make up for my shortcomings. If there’s something that I should have asked and didn’t, or if there’s something that you’re just dying to tell us, this is that time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—C. C., I think you found yourself in the right place at the right time didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d better believe it. It’s—I just happened to catch one of those waves, baby, and we rode them—rode it right to shore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you know we’ve been talking for quite a while now. I want to give you the opportunity to make up for my shortcomings. If there’s something that I should have asked and didn’t, or if there’s something that you’re just dying to tell us, this is that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The microphone and the camera’s all yours."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d better believe it. It’s—I just happened to catch one of those waves, baby, and we rode them—rode it right to shore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you know we’ve been talking for quite a while now. I want to give you the opportunity to make up for my shortcomings. If there’s something that I should have asked and didn’t, or if there’s something that you’re just dying to tell us, this is that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The microphone and the camera’s all yours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I—on—after this interview, of course, I’ll think of 20 things. But right at the moment, I can’t think of anything. I feel a little bit sorry for the guys coming along now. Because the first place—not that everything’s been done by any means. But we kind of licked the icing off the top of the cake and, you know, they’ve got to eat the cake with no icing left on it anymore now. And of course anything they do, somebody will say, “Oh what the hell! We did that in 1965” or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t think a colony on the Moon or a trip to Mars might be a little different?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The microphone and the camera’s all yours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I—on—after this interview, of course, I’ll think of 20 things. But right at the moment, I can’t think of anything. I feel a little bit sorry for the guys coming along now. Because the first place—not that everything’s been done by any means. But we kind of licked the icing off the top of the cake and, you know, they’ve got to eat the cake with no icing left on it anymore now. And of course anything they do, somebody will say, “Oh what the hell! We did that in 1965” or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t think a colony on the Moon or a trip to Mars might be a little different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Particularly if those journeys embodied new technology? Something different?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I—on—after this interview, of course, I’ll think of 20 things. But right at the moment, I can’t think of anything. I feel a little bit sorry for the guys coming along now. Because the first place—not that everything’s been done by any means. But we kind of licked the icing off the top of the cake and, you know, they’ve got to eat the cake with no icing left on it anymore now. And of course anything they do, somebody will say, “Oh what the hell! We did that in 1965” or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t think a colony on the Moon or a trip to Mars might be a little different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Particularly if those journeys embodied new technology? Something different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It’s kind of tough to—not to be able to play in the game anymore. You know, I know Max feels that way because he said so. That you don’t like the idea that somebody else is going to do all these things, and you don’t have a chance to participate in them. But, you know, you’ve really got to thank your lucky stars that you got to do what you did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any single thing in your entire career that stands out in your memory as, this was really the turning point or a highlight of all the things that I did?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:393", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Particularly if those journeys embodied new technology? Something different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It’s kind of tough to—not to be able to play in the game anymore. You know, I know Max feels that way because he said so. That you don’t like the idea that somebody else is going to do all these things, and you don’t have a chance to participate in them. But, you know, you’ve really got to thank your lucky stars that you got to do what you did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any single thing in your entire career that stands out in your memory as, this was really the turning point or a highlight of all the things that I did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. When the things happen, they just seem like that that’s, you know—that’s as usual. And it’s only after it’s all over with that you say, “Well, that’s really not all that usual and that it doesn’t happen very often.” But each day is just a day working. It’s a day working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You took it a step at a time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It’s kind of tough to—not to be able to play in the game anymore. You know, I know Max feels that way because he said so. That you don’t like the idea that somebody else is going to do all these things, and you don’t have a chance to participate in them. But, you know, you’ve really got to thank your lucky stars that you got to do what you did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any single thing in your entire career that stands out in your memory as, this was really the turning point or a highlight of all the things that I did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. When the things happen, they just seem like that that’s, you know—that’s as usual. And it’s only after it’s all over with that you say, “Well, that’s really not all that usual and that it doesn’t happen very often.” But each day is just a day working. It’s a day working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You took it a step at a time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I sound like a basketball coach now. One game at a time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. C. C., thank you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. When the things happen, they just seem like that that’s, you know—that’s as usual. And it’s only after it’s all over with that you say, “Well, that’s really not all that usual and that it doesn’t happen very often.” But each day is just a day working. It’s a day working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You took it a step at a time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I sound like a basketball coach now. One game at a time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. C. C., thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, it’s been my pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s been a grand interview. And we’ve, of course, been talking with Caldwell (call him “Cadwell”)—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I sound like a basketball coach now. One game at a time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. C. C., thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, it’s been my pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s been a grand interview. And we’ve, of course, been talking with Caldwell (call him “Cadwell”)—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—or C. C—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, it’s been my pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s been a grand interview. And we’ve, of course, been talking with Caldwell (call him “Cadwell”)—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—or C. C—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and we’ve been talking about the history of the space program here at the [Johnson] Space Center."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00294:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—or C. C—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and we’ve been talking about the history of the space program here at the [Johnson] Space Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a good place to talk."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.66179273035269, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think he had a particular interest in flight, but just an opportunity to take children to new experiences, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got to ride in your first plane when you were age six, in one of the Ford Tri-Motors. Do you have recollections of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don't?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you first hear of [Charles A.] Lindbergh?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.290880811502988, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don't?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you first hear of [Charles A.] Lindbergh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember when the first time was, but I'm sure it was when I was a schoolboy, in elementary school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everybody in America knew."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.989867568336653, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you first hear of [Charles A.] Lindbergh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember when the first time was, but I'm sure it was when I was a schoolboy, in elementary school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everybody in America knew."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Schoolboys always talked about heroes of flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you later have an opportunity to meet Lindbergh? Was he somebody that had been in your mind when you were becoming a pilot, thinking about Lindbergh? Did he mean a great deal to you as an American icon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.6554084092629475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember when the first time was, but I'm sure it was when I was a schoolboy, in elementary school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everybody in America knew."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Schoolboys always talked about heroes of flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you later have an opportunity to meet Lindbergh? Was he somebody that had been in your mind when you were becoming a pilot, thinking about Lindbergh? Did he mean a great deal to you as an American icon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did have the opportunity to meet him on several occasions. Had enormous admiration for him as a pilot. I'd read some of his books. I was aware of the controversial position he took on certain issues. But I was very pleased to have had the chance to meet him, and I think his wife [Anne Morrow Lindbergh] was a wonderful person and quite an [eloquent] writer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\n\nDid you ever correspond with him at the time of the Apollo? Was there any kind of wishing you well before the Apollo 11 mission, wishing you luck sort of—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.394898232514386, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Schoolboys always talked about heroes of flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you later have an opportunity to meet Lindbergh? Was he somebody that had been in your mind when you were becoming a pilot, thinking about Lindbergh? Did he mean a great deal to you as an American icon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did have the opportunity to meet him on several occasions. Had enormous admiration for him as a pilot. I'd read some of his books. I was aware of the controversial position he took on certain issues. But I was very pleased to have had the chance to meet him, and I think his wife [Anne Morrow Lindbergh] was a wonderful person and quite an [eloquent] writer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\n\nDid you ever correspond with him at the time of the Apollo? Was there any kind of wishing you well before the Apollo 11 mission, wishing you luck sort of—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't recall that. I think I have some letters from him in my file, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you begin building things? Your interest and your concern with engineering, your wanting to build things, is that a part of your memory from when you were five or six years old? Did you have a special bent towards that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.10544248057154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did have the opportunity to meet him on several occasions. Had enormous admiration for him as a pilot. I'd read some of his books. I was aware of the controversial position he took on certain issues. But I was very pleased to have had the chance to meet him, and I think his wife [Anne Morrow Lindbergh] was a wonderful person and quite an [eloquent] writer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\n\nDid you ever correspond with him at the time of the Apollo? Was there any kind of wishing you well before the Apollo 11 mission, wishing you luck sort of—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't recall that. I think I have some letters from him in my file, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you begin building things? Your interest and your concern with engineering, your wanting to build things, is that a part of your memory from when you were five or six years old? Did you have a special bent towards that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I began to focus on aviation probably at age eight or nine, and inspired by what I'd read and seen about aviation and building model aircraft, why, I determined at an early age—and I don't know exactly what age, while I was still in elementary school—that that was the field I wanted to go into, although my intention was to be—or hope was to be an aircraft designer. I later went into piloting because I thought a good designer ought to know the operational aspects of an airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you good in mathematics?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:16", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.8949360895239336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't recall that. I think I have some letters from him in my file, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you begin building things? Your interest and your concern with engineering, your wanting to build things, is that a part of your memory from when you were five or six years old? Did you have a special bent towards that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I began to focus on aviation probably at age eight or nine, and inspired by what I'd read and seen about aviation and building model aircraft, why, I determined at an early age—and I don't know exactly what age, while I was still in elementary school—that that was the field I wanted to go into, although my intention was to be—or hope was to be an aircraft designer. I later went into piloting because I thought a good designer ought to know the operational aspects of an airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you good in mathematics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything's relative. I was good in my small classes. However, I've since met many people who have far better mastery of mathematics than I will ever have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have physics in high school?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:18", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.772151210582148, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I began to focus on aviation probably at age eight or nine, and inspired by what I'd read and seen about aviation and building model aircraft, why, I determined at an early age—and I don't know exactly what age, while I was still in elementary school—that that was the field I wanted to go into, although my intention was to be—or hope was to be an aircraft designer. I later went into piloting because I thought a good designer ought to know the operational aspects of an airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you good in mathematics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything's relative. I was good in my small classes. However, I've since met many people who have far better mastery of mathematics than I will ever have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have physics in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember your teacher?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:20", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.635723567313498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything's relative. I was good in my small classes. However, I've since met many people who have far better mastery of mathematics than I will ever have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have physics in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember your teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was John Crites. I remember him very well, because he was sort of an unconventional teacher. He allowed a few students in each of his classes to do special projects, and so we didn't go to class very much. We were always off working on our projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your project?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:22", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.3730261859038855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember your teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was John Crites. I remember him very well, because he was sort of an unconventional teacher. He allowed a few students in each of his classes to do special projects, and so we didn't go to class very much. We were always off working on our projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In physics we had two. One was building a Tesla coil. I think it was probably about a 50,000 volt Tesla coil, good enough to light up fluorescent bulbs in the next room. Then a wind tunnel. That project was by myself. The Tesla coil I did with another student."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the wind tunnel."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:24", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.192251317670983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was John Crites. I remember him very well, because he was sort of an unconventional teacher. He allowed a few students in each of his classes to do special projects, and so we didn't go to class very much. We were always off working on our projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In physics we had two. One was building a Tesla coil. I think it was probably about a 50,000 volt Tesla coil, good enough to light up fluorescent bulbs in the next room. Then a wind tunnel. That project was by myself. The Tesla coil I did with another student."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the wind tunnel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my knowledge of aerodynamics was not good enough to match the quality of the Wright Brothers' tunnel, and at that point I suppose I was equally educated to them. But it was a fun project. Blew out a lot of fuses in my home. [Chuckles] Because I tried to build a rheostat which would allow the electric motor to change speed and then get various air flows through the tunnel, not altogether successfully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During this period you were traveling around Ohio to a lot of different cities. Is there one beyond Wapakoneta, other cities that you really identified with? Did you go to different schools in all those different towns?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:26", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.10250146407887, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In physics we had two. One was building a Tesla coil. I think it was probably about a 50,000 volt Tesla coil, good enough to light up fluorescent bulbs in the next room. Then a wind tunnel. That project was by myself. The Tesla coil I did with another student."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the wind tunnel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my knowledge of aerodynamics was not good enough to match the quality of the Wright Brothers' tunnel, and at that point I suppose I was equally educated to them. But it was a fun project. Blew out a lot of fuses in my home. [Chuckles] Because I tried to build a rheostat which would allow the electric motor to change speed and then get various air flows through the tunnel, not altogether successfully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During this period you were traveling around Ohio to a lot of different cities. Is there one beyond Wapakoneta, other cities that you really identified with? Did you go to different schools in all those different towns?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I went to … half a dozen schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to develop friendships when you were going to that many different schools, or was it the family life become—?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:28", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.113890515643188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my knowledge of aerodynamics was not good enough to match the quality of the Wright Brothers' tunnel, and at that point I suppose I was equally educated to them. But it was a fun project. Blew out a lot of fuses in my home. [Chuckles] Because I tried to build a rheostat which would allow the electric motor to change speed and then get various air flows through the tunnel, not altogether successfully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During this period you were traveling around Ohio to a lot of different cities. Is there one beyond Wapakoneta, other cities that you really identified with? Did you go to different schools in all those different towns?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I went to … half a dozen schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to develop friendships when you were going to that many different schools, or was it the family life become—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm certain I had friendships in every one of the schools I was in, but I don't remember those friends prior to probably the junior high school age. I still have friends that I see and remember from that time period and subsequent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beyond your physics class and the projects, were you an avid reader? Were you reading engineering and aerodynamics or history or what?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:30", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.23765612849243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I went to … half a dozen schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to develop friendships when you were going to that many different schools, or was it the family life become—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm certain I had friendships in every one of the schools I was in, but I don't remember those friends prior to probably the junior high school age. I still have friends that I see and remember from that time period and subsequent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beyond your physics class and the projects, were you an avid reader? Were you reading engineering and aerodynamics or history or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was an avid reader, yes, and I read all kinds of things. I spent a lot of time in the library and took a lot of books out of the library, both fiction and nonfiction. However, when I was building things, like models and so on, they were predominantly focused on aviation-related “stuff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember any specific book you read about aviation that—\"Wow!\" kind of response?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:32", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.26406236499159, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm certain I had friendships in every one of the schools I was in, but I don't remember those friends prior to probably the junior high school age. I still have friends that I see and remember from that time period and subsequent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beyond your physics class and the projects, were you an avid reader? Were you reading engineering and aerodynamics or history or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was an avid reader, yes, and I read all kinds of things. I spent a lot of time in the library and took a lot of books out of the library, both fiction and nonfiction. However, when I was building things, like models and so on, they were predominantly focused on aviation-related “stuff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember any specific book you read about aviation that—\"Wow!\" kind of response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I recall that I read a lot of the aviation magazines of the time, Flight and Air Trails and Model Airplane News, and anything I could get my hands on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about like Robert [H.] Goddard in science fiction, things about space? Did you ever read any of the science fiction writers of that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:34", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.404513738879544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was an avid reader, yes, and I read all kinds of things. I spent a lot of time in the library and took a lot of books out of the library, both fiction and nonfiction. However, when I was building things, like models and so on, they were predominantly focused on aviation-related “stuff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember any specific book you read about aviation that—\"Wow!\" kind of response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I recall that I read a lot of the aviation magazines of the time, Flight and Air Trails and Model Airplane News, and anything I could get my hands on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about like Robert [H.] Goddard in science fiction, things about space? Did you ever read any of the science fiction writers of that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a young boy I don't recall reading much science fiction. I did come to enjoy it when I was perhaps late high school and college age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were very small, did you have any interest in [General William] Billy Mitchell's trial?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:36", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.56057082097727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I recall that I read a lot of the aviation magazines of the time, Flight and Air Trails and Model Airplane News, and anything I could get my hands on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about like Robert [H.] Goddard in science fiction, things about space? Did you ever read any of the science fiction writers of that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a young boy I don't recall reading much science fiction. I did come to enjoy it when I was perhaps late high school and college age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were very small, did you have any interest in [General William] Billy Mitchell's trial?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't recall. I knew the name Billy Mitchell and I knew about his demonstration of the effectiveness of air power, but I don't recall things about his trial. I may have known, but I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were what, a sophomore in high school when World War II ended?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:38", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.733967578863634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a young boy I don't recall reading much science fiction. I did come to enjoy it when I was perhaps late high school and college age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were very small, did you have any interest in [General William] Billy Mitchell's trial?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't recall. I knew the name Billy Mitchell and I knew about his demonstration of the effectiveness of air power, but I don't recall things about his trial. I may have known, but I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were what, a sophomore in high school when World War II ended?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's approximately—let's see. Yes, I was between my sophomore and junior year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The assumption among young men at that time was, \"As soon as I graduate or as soon as I get to be eighteen, I'm going into the service.\" But then the war ended when you were fifteen. So you completed the high school without any \"I'm going to enlist\" kind of feeling."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:40", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.926630643181815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't recall. I knew the name Billy Mitchell and I knew about his demonstration of the effectiveness of air power, but I don't recall things about his trial. I may have known, but I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were what, a sophomore in high school when World War II ended?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's approximately—let's see. Yes, I was between my sophomore and junior year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The assumption among young men at that time was, \"As soon as I graduate or as soon as I get to be eighteen, I'm going into the service.\" But then the war ended when you were fifteen. So you completed the high school without any \"I'm going to enlist\" kind of feeling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. We had a few people in my school who had either lied about their age or were a little older than the class, who had gone into the service, and came back and finished high school after the war was over. We had several of those fellows in our school, but the youngest of those would probably be two years older than I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got a Navy scholarship to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana] immediately after graduating high school, I gather."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:42", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.02958960353535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's approximately—let's see. Yes, I was between my sophomore and junior year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The assumption among young men at that time was, \"As soon as I graduate or as soon as I get to be eighteen, I'm going into the service.\" But then the war ended when you were fifteen. So you completed the high school without any \"I'm going to enlist\" kind of feeling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. We had a few people in my school who had either lied about their age or were a little older than the class, who had gone into the service, and came back and finished high school after the war was over. We had several of those fellows in our school, but the youngest of those would probably be two years older than I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got a Navy scholarship to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana] immediately after graduating high school, I gather."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe that the test for what was called the Hollaway Plan, the Naval Aviation College [Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC] Program, were administered nationwide while I was still in high school, probably shortly before graduation, although I cannot remember the precise date. It was early enough so that we could pick a school. If we were accepted into this program, we could pick any accredited school in the nation to attend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the test on one of those IBM [International Business Machines] sheets where you, you know, one, two, three, four, five, and you have a lead pencil and you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:44", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.255099559483721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. We had a few people in my school who had either lied about their age or were a little older than the class, who had gone into the service, and came back and finished high school after the war was over. We had several of those fellows in our school, but the youngest of those would probably be two years older than I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got a Navy scholarship to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana] immediately after graduating high school, I gather."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe that the test for what was called the Hollaway Plan, the Naval Aviation College [Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC] Program, were administered nationwide while I was still in high school, probably shortly before graduation, although I cannot remember the precise date. It was early enough so that we could pick a school. If we were accepted into this program, we could pick any accredited school in the nation to attend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the test on one of those IBM [International Business Machines] sheets where you, you know, one, two, three, four, five, and you have a lead pencil and you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. I believe it was predominantly—I shouldn't really say, because I confuse that. But my recollection is that it was a pencil-and-paper exam with a variety of different kinds of questions and sections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mainly mathematics or mathematics and physics?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:46", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.616777288315246, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe that the test for what was called the Hollaway Plan, the Naval Aviation College [Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, NROTC] Program, were administered nationwide while I was still in high school, probably shortly before graduation, although I cannot remember the precise date. It was early enough so that we could pick a school. If we were accepted into this program, we could pick any accredited school in the nation to attend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the test on one of those IBM [International Business Machines] sheets where you, you know, one, two, three, four, five, and you have a lead pencil and you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. I believe it was predominantly—I shouldn't really say, because I confuse that. But my recollection is that it was a pencil-and-paper exam with a variety of different kinds of questions and sections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mainly mathematics or mathematics and physics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they had a focus on things that would be appropriate to aviation, because it was an aviation-directed program, but I can't remember the details of the test, except that I recall it was quite long. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you mean by long? All day?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:48", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.018641431461385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. I believe it was predominantly—I shouldn't really say, because I confuse that. But my recollection is that it was a pencil-and-paper exam with a variety of different kinds of questions and sections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mainly mathematics or mathematics and physics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they had a focus on things that would be appropriate to aviation, because it was an aviation-directed program, but I can't remember the details of the test, except that I recall it was quite long. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you mean by long? All day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was an all-day test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the way they used to do it, I know. [Laughter] I've been through that myself.\\n\\n So you came out well, obviously, and the Navy offered you, and the \"Holly\" Plan—it was like Naval ROTC, that you would get tuition and a stipend of twenty-five bucks a month or something like that, I suppose."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:50", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.576268257179315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they had a focus on things that would be appropriate to aviation, because it was an aviation-directed program, but I can't remember the details of the test, except that I recall it was quite long. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you mean by long? All day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was an all-day test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the way they used to do it, I know. [Laughter] I've been through that myself.\\n\\n So you came out well, obviously, and the Navy offered you, and the \"Holly\" Plan—it was like Naval ROTC, that you would get tuition and a stipend of twenty-five bucks a month or something like that, I suppose."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fortunately, it was a little more than that. They would pay tuition fees and books, plus a stipend for board and room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were accepted in this program, you were signing up, in effect, accepting a call from the navy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:52", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.640298063532573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was an all-day test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the way they used to do it, I know. [Laughter] I've been through that myself.\\n\\n So you came out well, obviously, and the Navy offered you, and the \"Holly\" Plan—it was like Naval ROTC, that you would get tuition and a stipend of twenty-five bucks a month or something like that, I suppose."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fortunately, it was a little more than that. They would pay tuition fees and books, plus a stipend for board and room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were accepted in this program, you were signing up, in effect, accepting a call from the navy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A seven-year program, yes. Two years of [university study], then go to the navy, go through flight training, get a commission, and then serve in the regular navy for a total then of three years of active duty, after which the plan would be to return to university and finish the last two years. The intent of this program, named after Admiral [James L.] Holloway [Jr.], who, if memory serves, was [astronaut Walter M.] Wally Schirra's father-in-law, and the intent was to build up the naval air reserve strength, which they felt was going downhill because people after the war really didn't want to do that stuff anymore. That was my understanding at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were called up for flight training after what, one year at Purdue or two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:54", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.711442292813969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fortunately, it was a little more than that. They would pay tuition fees and books, plus a stipend for board and room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were accepted in this program, you were signing up, in effect, accepting a call from the navy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A seven-year program, yes. Two years of [university study], then go to the navy, go through flight training, get a commission, and then serve in the regular navy for a total then of three years of active duty, after which the plan would be to return to university and finish the last two years. The intent of this program, named after Admiral [James L.] Holloway [Jr.], who, if memory serves, was [astronaut Walter M.] Wally Schirra's father-in-law, and the intent was to build up the naval air reserve strength, which they felt was going downhill because people after the war really didn't want to do that stuff anymore. That was my understanding at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were called up for flight training after what, one year at Purdue or two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year and a half. It was supposed to be two years, but I suppose they saw [the] Korea[n War] coming or something, and they needed to ratchet the volume up a little bit, so they called us in early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now you're in uniform, but not yet commissioned, being trained as a pilot, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:56", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.901602547571075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A seven-year program, yes. Two years of [university study], then go to the navy, go through flight training, get a commission, and then serve in the regular navy for a total then of three years of active duty, after which the plan would be to return to university and finish the last two years. The intent of this program, named after Admiral [James L.] Holloway [Jr.], who, if memory serves, was [astronaut Walter M.] Wally Schirra's father-in-law, and the intent was to build up the naval air reserve strength, which they felt was going downhill because people after the war really didn't want to do that stuff anymore. That was my understanding at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were called up for flight training after what, one year at Purdue or two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year and a half. It was supposed to be two years, but I suppose they saw [the] Korea[n War] coming or something, and they needed to ratchet the volume up a little bit, so they called us in early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now you're in uniform, but not yet commissioned, being trained as a pilot, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was in naval flight school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about training. How did the navy go about training you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:58", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.224002830634527, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year and a half. It was supposed to be two years, but I suppose they saw [the] Korea[n War] coming or something, and they needed to ratchet the volume up a little bit, so they called us in early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now you're in uniform, but not yet commissioned, being trained as a pilot, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was in naval flight school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about training. How did the navy go about training you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they found that the way I had learned to fly before wasn't nearly what they expected. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to backtrack for one second, you got your pilot's license at age sixteen in Ohio. Could you have gotten it any earlier? Is that almost like getting an auto license back when you're fourteen, fifteen?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:60", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.471114256260584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was in naval flight school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about training. How did the navy go about training you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they found that the way I had learned to fly before wasn't nearly what they expected. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to backtrack for one second, you got your pilot's license at age sixteen in Ohio. Could you have gotten it any earlier? Is that almost like getting an auto license back when you're fourteen, fifteen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe you could get it in a glider at age fourteen, but in a powered aircraft you had to wait till you reached your sixteenth birthday, and then the license you got was called a student pilot's license, which allowed you to fly solo, but not take passengers with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember your first solo flight over the land in Ohio when you actually could be up in the air on your own? Do you have any recollections of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:62", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.856793618067316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they found that the way I had learned to fly before wasn't nearly what they expected. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to backtrack for one second, you got your pilot's license at age sixteen in Ohio. Could you have gotten it any earlier? Is that almost like getting an auto license back when you're fourteen, fifteen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe you could get it in a glider at age fourteen, but in a powered aircraft you had to wait till you reached your sixteenth birthday, and then the license you got was called a student pilot's license, which allowed you to fly solo, but not take passengers with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember your first solo flight over the land in Ohio when you actually could be up in the air on your own? Do you have any recollections of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I have vague recollections. A very exciting time when you go on your first solo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was the location?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:64", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.396437353408128, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe you could get it in a glider at age fourteen, but in a powered aircraft you had to wait till you reached your sixteenth birthday, and then the license you got was called a student pilot's license, which allowed you to fly solo, but not take passengers with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember your first solo flight over the land in Ohio when you actually could be up in the air on your own? Do you have any recollections of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I have vague recollections. A very exciting time when you go on your first solo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was the location?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in Wapakoneta, at a grass field there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your first instructor?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:66", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.440485948231254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I have vague recollections. A very exciting time when you go on your first solo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was the location?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in Wapakoneta, at a grass field there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your first instructor?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, let's see. I had three. The first one's name escapes me at the minute [Frank Lucie]. The second one was named Aubrey Knudegard. The third was Chuck Finkenbine ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They lived in that area, in Wapakoneta area?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:68", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.600539942479172, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in Wapakoneta, at a grass field there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your first instructor?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, let's see. I had three. The first one's name escapes me at the minute [Frank Lucie]. The second one was named Aubrey Knudegard. The third was Chuck Finkenbine ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They lived in that area, in Wapakoneta area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know where they lived, but I'm sure they didn't live far away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this unusual for a young man your age? Were a lot of contemporaries of yours wanting to get pilot's license?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:70", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.889488824976857, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, let's see. I had three. The first one's name escapes me at the minute [Frank Lucie]. The second one was named Aubrey Knudegard. The third was Chuck Finkenbine ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They lived in that area, in Wapakoneta area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know where they lived, but I'm sure they didn't live far away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this unusual for a young man your age? Were a lot of contemporaries of yours wanting to get pilot's license?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a class of maybe about seventy students, about half boys. We had three in my class that learned to fly at the same time I did. So I don't know how unusual that is, three out of thirty five, 10 percent. Not very unusual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get back to the navy, can I ask one Ohio question? I'm curious because of living in Ohio. Do you remember the towns that you lived in? Research says you lived in a lot of different towns, but they never say the names of them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:72", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.321654249974285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know where they lived, but I'm sure they didn't live far away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this unusual for a young man your age? Were a lot of contemporaries of yours wanting to get pilot's license?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a class of maybe about seventy students, about half boys. We had three in my class that learned to fly at the same time I did. So I don't know how unusual that is, three out of thirty five, 10 percent. Not very unusual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get back to the navy, can I ask one Ohio question? I'm curious because of living in Ohio. Do you remember the towns that you lived in? Research says you lived in a lot of different towns, but they never say the names of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I moved a lot before I entered school, and when I entered school, the rate of change of towns slowed down somewhat, but still about every couple of years it seemed like we were moving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the names of some of the other towns besides—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:74", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.35739361108254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a class of maybe about seventy students, about half boys. We had three in my class that learned to fly at the same time I did. So I don't know how unusual that is, three out of thirty five, 10 percent. Not very unusual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get back to the navy, can I ask one Ohio question? I'm curious because of living in Ohio. Do you remember the towns that you lived in? Research says you lived in a lot of different towns, but they never say the names of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I moved a lot before I entered school, and when I entered school, the rate of change of towns slowed down somewhat, but still about every couple of years it seemed like we were moving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the names of some of the other towns besides—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First school was in Warren, Ohio; and then Jefferson, Ohio; Moulton, Ohio; then St. Mary's, Ohio; [Upper Sandusky Ohio]; then Wapakoneta, Ohio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I never knew those other towns. Thank you.\n\nOkay. When you began with the navy is training you to be a pilot, you had been up in a single-engine plane for some soloing, but now you're with the United States Navy. How did they train you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:76", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.508215123425042, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I moved a lot before I entered school, and when I entered school, the rate of change of towns slowed down somewhat, but still about every couple of years it seemed like we were moving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the names of some of the other towns besides—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First school was in Warren, Ohio; and then Jefferson, Ohio; Moulton, Ohio; then St. Mary's, Ohio; [Upper Sandusky Ohio]; then Wapakoneta, Ohio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I never knew those other towns. Thank you.\n\nOkay. When you began with the navy is training you to be a pilot, you had been up in a single-engine plane for some soloing, but now you're with the United States Navy. How did they train you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training was divided into three parts. The first was a [four]-month nonflying ground school and physical training regimen. The second part was called basic training, which was all flight students went through the exact same protocol, did the exact same kinds of things, learning to fly, getting some experience soloing, learning to do cross-country flight, navigation, that sort of thing, learning to fly instruments, learning to fly acrobatics, learning to fly formation, learning to drop bombs, learning to fire guns, and learning to land on an aircraft carrier.\\n\\n After that, went to advanced training, where—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On an actual carrier?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:78", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.453572359361159, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First school was in Warren, Ohio; and then Jefferson, Ohio; Moulton, Ohio; then St. Mary's, Ohio; [Upper Sandusky Ohio]; then Wapakoneta, Ohio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I never knew those other towns. Thank you.\n\nOkay. When you began with the navy is training you to be a pilot, you had been up in a single-engine plane for some soloing, but now you're with the United States Navy. How did they train you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training was divided into three parts. The first was a [four]-month nonflying ground school and physical training regimen. The second part was called basic training, which was all flight students went through the exact same protocol, did the exact same kinds of things, learning to fly, getting some experience soloing, learning to do cross-country flight, navigation, that sort of thing, learning to fly instruments, learning to fly acrobatics, learning to fly formation, learning to drop bombs, learning to fire guns, and learning to land on an aircraft carrier.\\n\\n After that, went to advanced training, where—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On an actual carrier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On a real carrier. [In] advanced training, you [were selected to become the pilot of single engine aircraft (fighters and attack aircraft) or multiengine patrol aircraft]. In my case, I asked for fighters and got fighters.\\n\\n Then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas, and went through training there in single-occupant aircraft, in my case F8F Bearcat. We went through … the same kinds of things, learning to fly on instruments and learning to do advanced navigation, over-water navigation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Navigation by the stars or navigation by radio or navigation by compass or what?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.503969288179066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training was divided into three parts. The first was a [four]-month nonflying ground school and physical training regimen. The second part was called basic training, which was all flight students went through the exact same protocol, did the exact same kinds of things, learning to fly, getting some experience soloing, learning to do cross-country flight, navigation, that sort of thing, learning to fly instruments, learning to fly acrobatics, learning to fly formation, learning to drop bombs, learning to fire guns, and learning to land on an aircraft carrier.\\n\\n After that, went to advanced training, where—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On an actual carrier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On a real carrier. [In] advanced training, you [were selected to become the pilot of single engine aircraft (fighters and attack aircraft) or multiengine patrol aircraft]. In my case, I asked for fighters and got fighters.\\n\\n Then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas, and went through training there in single-occupant aircraft, in my case F8F Bearcat. We went through … the same kinds of things, learning to fly on instruments and learning to do advanced navigation, over-water navigation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Navigation by the stars or navigation by radio or navigation by compass or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had learned in the earlier part, … the ground school part, how to navigate and use celestial navigation. … Celestial navigation was used by multi-engine pilots predominantly, while single-engine fighters and attack aircraft required the full attention of the sole occupant on the flying, and so he couldn't be taking sextant shots and things like that. So the navigation was somewhat more rudimentary, but it required dead reckoning and use of radio aids and whatever might be available at sea…."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you dead-reckon at sea?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.671076986865629, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On a real carrier. [In] advanced training, you [were selected to become the pilot of single engine aircraft (fighters and attack aircraft) or multiengine patrol aircraft]. In my case, I asked for fighters and got fighters.\\n\\n Then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas, and went through training there in single-occupant aircraft, in my case F8F Bearcat. We went through … the same kinds of things, learning to fly on instruments and learning to do advanced navigation, over-water navigation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Navigation by the stars or navigation by radio or navigation by compass or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had learned in the earlier part, … the ground school part, how to navigate and use celestial navigation. … Celestial navigation was used by multi-engine pilots predominantly, while single-engine fighters and attack aircraft required the full attention of the sole occupant on the flying, and so he couldn't be taking sextant shots and things like that. So the navigation was somewhat more rudimentary, but it required dead reckoning and use of radio aids and whatever might be available at sea…."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you dead-reckon at sea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By computing your true speed over the ground, by using your air speed, altitude, and outside temperature, and noting the direction of the wind however you could by wave action or cloud shadow movements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Guessing, in other words."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.967863318739587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had learned in the earlier part, … the ground school part, how to navigate and use celestial navigation. … Celestial navigation was used by multi-engine pilots predominantly, while single-engine fighters and attack aircraft required the full attention of the sole occupant on the flying, and so he couldn't be taking sextant shots and things like that. So the navigation was somewhat more rudimentary, but it required dead reckoning and use of radio aids and whatever might be available at sea…."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you dead-reckon at sea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By computing your true speed over the ground, by using your air speed, altitude, and outside temperature, and noting the direction of the wind however you could by wave action or cloud shadow movements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Guessing, in other words."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guessing. At least you'd hopefully be in the right direction, probably weren't always. And then the pilots had to be able to return to their carrier, so there were certain kinds of electronic aids that were peculiar to a carrier you wouldn't find anywhere else, wouldn't find in land-based navigation. So it was a matter of learning those and, of course, learning to use the aircraft as a weapon defensively and offensively, and learn tactics, and then finally qualify again on a carrier in advanced aircraft…. Other students went into multi-engine flight in either patrol bombers or transports or some variety of other craft. Everyone went their separate ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the army air force in 1942, '43, '44, only the very best got to be fighter pilots. If you weren't quite up to that standard, then they put you in a two-engine or a four-engine. Was that also true in the navy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.408737020821762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By computing your true speed over the ground, by using your air speed, altitude, and outside temperature, and noting the direction of the wind however you could by wave action or cloud shadow movements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Guessing, in other words."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guessing. At least you'd hopefully be in the right direction, probably weren't always. And then the pilots had to be able to return to their carrier, so there were certain kinds of electronic aids that were peculiar to a carrier you wouldn't find anywhere else, wouldn't find in land-based navigation. So it was a matter of learning those and, of course, learning to use the aircraft as a weapon defensively and offensively, and learn tactics, and then finally qualify again on a carrier in advanced aircraft…. Other students went into multi-engine flight in either patrol bombers or transports or some variety of other craft. Everyone went their separate ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the army air force in 1942, '43, '44, only the very best got to be fighter pilots. If you weren't quite up to that standard, then they put you in a two-engine or a four-engine. Was that also true in the navy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The fighter pilots always said that was true. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not asking you to brag on yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.00970780091307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guessing. At least you'd hopefully be in the right direction, probably weren't always. And then the pilots had to be able to return to their carrier, so there were certain kinds of electronic aids that were peculiar to a carrier you wouldn't find anywhere else, wouldn't find in land-based navigation. So it was a matter of learning those and, of course, learning to use the aircraft as a weapon defensively and offensively, and learn tactics, and then finally qualify again on a carrier in advanced aircraft…. Other students went into multi-engine flight in either patrol bombers or transports or some variety of other craft. Everyone went their separate ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the army air force in 1942, '43, '44, only the very best got to be fighter pilots. If you weren't quite up to that standard, then they put you in a two-engine or a four-engine. Was that also true in the navy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The fighter pilots always said that was true. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not asking you to brag on yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I don't know what the naval officers, the commanding officer of the training command would say about that. I was not privy to what process they used in deciding. My own guess is that a large part of it had to do with what needs they had at the time you graduated, because in my particular class, most of my classmates happened to get what they asked for, while I can recall people from a different generation saying nobody got what they asked for. So I can't really know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've read that you told your mother you didn't want to be responsible for others; that's why you wanted a single-engine fighter. Is that story accurate?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 17.788564223236744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The fighter pilots always said that was true. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not asking you to brag on yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I don't know what the naval officers, the commanding officer of the training command would say about that. I was not privy to what process they used in deciding. My own guess is that a large part of it had to do with what needs they had at the time you graduated, because in my particular class, most of my classmates happened to get what they asked for, while I can recall people from a different generation saying nobody got what they asked for. So I can't really know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've read that you told your mother you didn't want to be responsible for others; that's why you wanted a single-engine fighter. Is that story accurate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know that I ever told her that. You know, I might have said something like that, but I don't remember saying that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you get your wings and commission? What was the date?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.209515803596382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I don't know what the naval officers, the commanding officer of the training command would say about that. I was not privy to what process they used in deciding. My own guess is that a large part of it had to do with what needs they had at the time you graduated, because in my particular class, most of my classmates happened to get what they asked for, while I can recall people from a different generation saying nobody got what they asked for. So I can't really know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've read that you told your mother you didn't want to be responsible for others; that's why you wanted a single-engine fighter. Is that story accurate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know that I ever told her that. You know, I might have said something like that, but I don't remember saying that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you get your wings and commission? What was the date?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got my wings in August of 1950, but that was about seventeen or eighteen months after I'd begun my active duty service, so I still had another six months to go. So I was one of those rare birds, a midshipman with wings. So I went to the fleet squadron, was in a standby unit for a while, then assigned to a jet fighter squadron, still was a midshipman making seventy-five bucks a month plus flight pay, 50 percent of seventy-five bucks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Landing on carriers at night, that was extraordinarily difficult to learn. Was there one aspect of this period that was a hard thing for you to conquer something like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.78835089288487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know that I ever told her that. You know, I might have said something like that, but I don't remember saying that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you get your wings and commission? What was the date?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got my wings in August of 1950, but that was about seventeen or eighteen months after I'd begun my active duty service, so I still had another six months to go. So I was one of those rare birds, a midshipman with wings. So I went to the fleet squadron, was in a standby unit for a while, then assigned to a jet fighter squadron, still was a midshipman making seventy-five bucks a month plus flight pay, 50 percent of seventy-five bucks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Landing on carriers at night, that was extraordinarily difficult to learn. Was there one aspect of this period that was a hard thing for you to conquer something like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I happened to be a day fighter pilot. We had night fighter pilots on the ship I was on, and I thought they were crazy. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have to do a night landing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.54261210320541, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got my wings in August of 1950, but that was about seventeen or eighteen months after I'd begun my active duty service, so I still had another six months to go. So I was one of those rare birds, a midshipman with wings. So I went to the fleet squadron, was in a standby unit for a while, then assigned to a jet fighter squadron, still was a midshipman making seventy-five bucks a month plus flight pay, 50 percent of seventy-five bucks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Landing on carriers at night, that was extraordinarily difficult to learn. Was there one aspect of this period that was a hard thing for you to conquer something like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I happened to be a day fighter pilot. We had night fighter pilots on the ship I was on, and I thought they were crazy. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have to do a night landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did it only in practice. I never did it on a carrier. All my landings on a carrier were in day. I was always happy about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, August of '50, the Korean War is now a couple of months old."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.49179122578379, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I happened to be a day fighter pilot. We had night fighter pilots on the ship I was on, and I thought they were crazy. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have to do a night landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did it only in practice. I never did it on a carrier. All my landings on a carrier were in day. I was always happy about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, August of '50, the Korean War is now a couple of months old."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're completing your basic. Did they send you right off?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.101990250870877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did it only in practice. I never did it on a carrier. All my landings on a carrier were in day. I was always happy about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, August of '50, the Korean War is now a couple of months old."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're completing your basic. Did they send you right off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I asked for the Pacific Fleet and was given the Pacific Fleet. But as I say, I was first sent out to a squadron called FASRON, Fleet Air Service Squadron, which is a utility squadron, handled all kinds of miscellaneous jobs that needed to be done around a large naval air station. That sort of was a holding position. They would typically take new entrants that come to that base and stick them there for a time period until there was a squadron opening for assignment, so I was in that squadron for probably three or four months, until there was an opening for me in Fighter Squadron 51 [VF-51]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would have been at the end of 1950."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.557766945412085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're completing your basic. Did they send you right off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I asked for the Pacific Fleet and was given the Pacific Fleet. But as I say, I was first sent out to a squadron called FASRON, Fleet Air Service Squadron, which is a utility squadron, handled all kinds of miscellaneous jobs that needed to be done around a large naval air station. That sort of was a holding position. They would typically take new entrants that come to that base and stick them there for a time period until there was a squadron opening for assignment, so I was in that squadron for probably three or four months, until there was an opening for me in Fighter Squadron 51 [VF-51]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would have been at the end of 1950."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the end of '50. November or December, as I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then off to the fleet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.841963272680095, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I asked for the Pacific Fleet and was given the Pacific Fleet. But as I say, I was first sent out to a squadron called FASRON, Fleet Air Service Squadron, which is a utility squadron, handled all kinds of miscellaneous jobs that needed to be done around a large naval air station. That sort of was a holding position. They would typically take new entrants that come to that base and stick them there for a time period until there was a squadron opening for assignment, so I was in that squadron for probably three or four months, until there was an opening for me in Fighter Squadron 51 [VF-51]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would have been at the end of 1950."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the end of '50. November or December, as I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then off to the fleet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We immediately prepared to be assigned to the Korean action, and so a matter of the squadron training everyone in an operational sense to do the job that they would be expected to do, so that period. Again, you sort of do the same sorts of things as you did in training. Now you're in a new aircraft, but you have a much more specific objective because you sort of know what kind of an environment you're going into.\\n\\n We didn't know to what extent we would be offensive, in the sense that we would be dropping bombs or shooting guns, or to what extent we might be defending the fleet against Chinese or Russian incoming aircraft, to what extent it might be air-to-air or air-to-ground. So we had to prepare for sort of all of those, plus become carrier-qualified in jet aircraft and doing a lot of practice with weapons delivery, instrument flying, and so on, the things that we would be facing when we got in operation. I was very young, very green."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were very young. Which coast of Korea were you on when you flew your first mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.935514747422328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the end of '50. November or December, as I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then off to the fleet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We immediately prepared to be assigned to the Korean action, and so a matter of the squadron training everyone in an operational sense to do the job that they would be expected to do, so that period. Again, you sort of do the same sorts of things as you did in training. Now you're in a new aircraft, but you have a much more specific objective because you sort of know what kind of an environment you're going into.\\n\\n We didn't know to what extent we would be offensive, in the sense that we would be dropping bombs or shooting guns, or to what extent we might be defending the fleet against Chinese or Russian incoming aircraft, to what extent it might be air-to-air or air-to-ground. So we had to prepare for sort of all of those, plus become carrier-qualified in jet aircraft and doing a lot of practice with weapons delivery, instrument flying, and so on, the things that we would be facing when we got in operation. I was very young, very green."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were very young. Which coast of Korea were you on when you flew your first mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the time we flew off the eastern coast of North Korea, off Wonsan Bay, about 100 miles out, something like that. Had two kinds of flights. One would be called combat air patrol, which was defense of the fleet, basically. And the other was predominantly interdiction flights, flying against bridges and railroads and trying to find an occasional tank—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bombs and bullets?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.70612749713592, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We immediately prepared to be assigned to the Korean action, and so a matter of the squadron training everyone in an operational sense to do the job that they would be expected to do, so that period. Again, you sort of do the same sorts of things as you did in training. Now you're in a new aircraft, but you have a much more specific objective because you sort of know what kind of an environment you're going into.\\n\\n We didn't know to what extent we would be offensive, in the sense that we would be dropping bombs or shooting guns, or to what extent we might be defending the fleet against Chinese or Russian incoming aircraft, to what extent it might be air-to-air or air-to-ground. So we had to prepare for sort of all of those, plus become carrier-qualified in jet aircraft and doing a lot of practice with weapons delivery, instrument flying, and so on, the things that we would be facing when we got in operation. I was very young, very green."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were very young. Which coast of Korea were you on when you flew your first mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the time we flew off the eastern coast of North Korea, off Wonsan Bay, about 100 miles out, something like that. Had two kinds of flights. One would be called combat air patrol, which was defense of the fleet, basically. And the other was predominantly interdiction flights, flying against bridges and railroads and trying to find an occasional tank—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bombs and bullets?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bombs, bullets, and rockets sometimes, depending on what target it was. We had a combination of two jet fighter squadrons, F4U Corsair squadron, of course, air squadron, and an AD [Skyraider] squadron. [They] could carry the 2,000-pounders and really do some damage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seven in a squadron?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.562363885706578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the time we flew off the eastern coast of North Korea, off Wonsan Bay, about 100 miles out, something like that. Had two kinds of flights. One would be called combat air patrol, which was defense of the fleet, basically. And the other was predominantly interdiction flights, flying against bridges and railroads and trying to find an occasional tank—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bombs and bullets?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bombs, bullets, and rockets sometimes, depending on what target it was. We had a combination of two jet fighter squadrons, F4U Corsair squadron, of course, air squadron, and an AD [Skyraider] squadron. [They] could carry the 2,000-pounders and really do some damage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seven in a squadron?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't speak specifically to the numbers in each squadron. In our squadron we had twenty-four pilots and sixteen aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sixteen. But only twenty-four pilots."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.402626539673975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bombs, bullets, and rockets sometimes, depending on what target it was. We had a combination of two jet fighter squadrons, F4U Corsair squadron, of course, air squadron, and an AD [Skyraider] squadron. [They] could carry the 2,000-pounders and really do some damage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seven in a squadron?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't speak specifically to the numbers in each squadron. In our squadron we had twenty-four pilots and sixteen aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sixteen. But only twenty-four pilots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Started with twenty-four."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Started with, yeah. The army liked to have two pilots for every airplane.\\n\\n Tell us about your first mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.33625171074886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't speak specifically to the numbers in each squadron. In our squadron we had twenty-four pilots and sixteen aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sixteen. But only twenty-four pilots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Started with twenty-four."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Started with, yeah. The army liked to have two pilots for every airplane.\\n\\n Tell us about your first mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't recall it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know you did a lot of them. Did you ever, in flying combat air patrol, did they ever come in and try to attack the fleet at night?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.304014457714642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't recall it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know you did a lot of them. Did you ever, in flying combat air patrol, did they ever come in and try to attack the fleet at night?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, and I'm glad they didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By air?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I would not have enjoyed trying to go—well, I probably would have enjoyed it, but I don't know that I would have won against a MiG in an old Panther. It was a pretty primitive airplane. Of course, the MiG was pretty primitive too, but had a little better performance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the F9F Panther perform?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.337793841905157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, and I'm glad they didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By air?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I would not have enjoyed trying to go—well, I probably would have enjoyed it, but I don't know that I would have won against a MiG in an old Panther. It was a pretty primitive airplane. Of course, the MiG was pretty primitive too, but had a little better performance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the F9F Panther perform?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very solid airplane. We thought it was wonderful. In retrospect, it was an airplane of the time and it didn't fly [particularly] well…. But we didn't know that at the time…."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the weak points?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.48643760211684, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I would not have enjoyed trying to go—well, I probably would have enjoyed it, but I don't know that I would have won against a MiG in an old Panther. It was a pretty primitive airplane. Of course, the MiG was pretty primitive too, but had a little better performance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the F9F Panther perform?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very solid airplane. We thought it was wonderful. In retrospect, it was an airplane of the time and it didn't fly [particularly] well…. But we didn't know that at the time…."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the weak points?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't have particularly good handling qualities. Pretty good lateral directional controls, but very stiff in pitch. Its performance both in absolute altitude, max speed, and climb rate were inferior to the MiG by substantial amount."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's a story about September 3rd, 1951, when you had to eject yourself from a Panther after receiving antiaircraft fire. Was that one of the moments of the Korean War where you really feel your life is being put on the line?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.651597335685377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very solid airplane. We thought it was wonderful. In retrospect, it was an airplane of the time and it didn't fly [particularly] well…. But we didn't know that at the time…."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the weak points?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't have particularly good handling qualities. Pretty good lateral directional controls, but very stiff in pitch. Its performance both in absolute altitude, max speed, and climb rate were inferior to the MiG by substantial amount."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's a story about September 3rd, 1951, when you had to eject yourself from a Panther after receiving antiaircraft fire. Was that one of the moments of the Korean War where you really feel your life is being put on the line?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do remember that one. It wasn't antiaircraft fire, although antiaircraft fire was ubiquitous at the time. I don't know to what extent that antiaircraft fire played a part in it, but I actually ran through a cable, an antiaircraft cable, and knocked off about six or eight feet of my right wing. If you're going fast, a cable will make a very good knife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.94621926187264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't have particularly good handling qualities. Pretty good lateral directional controls, but very stiff in pitch. Its performance both in absolute altitude, max speed, and climb rate were inferior to the MiG by substantial amount."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's a story about September 3rd, 1951, when you had to eject yourself from a Panther after receiving antiaircraft fire. Was that one of the moments of the Korean War where you really feel your life is being put on the line?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do remember that one. It wasn't antiaircraft fire, although antiaircraft fire was ubiquitous at the time. I don't know to what extent that antiaircraft fire played a part in it, but I actually ran through a cable, an antiaircraft cable, and knocked off about six or eight feet of my right wing. If you're going fast, a cable will make a very good knife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think that I could risk slowing the airplane down to landing speed, because once—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been almost right on the deck."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.162465846525155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do remember that one. It wasn't antiaircraft fire, although antiaircraft fire was ubiquitous at the time. I don't know to what extent that antiaircraft fire played a part in it, but I actually ran through a cable, an antiaircraft cable, and knocked off about six or eight feet of my right wing. If you're going fast, a cable will make a very good knife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think that I could risk slowing the airplane down to landing speed, because once—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been almost right on the deck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, these are strung between mountains, so I was up maybe 500 feet or something, not an unusual altitude for the kind of things we were doing. I don't remember exactly what the altitude was, but they didn't put those big balls on the cables so that you could see they were there in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened after that moment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.069406496139061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think that I could risk slowing the airplane down to landing speed, because once—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been almost right on the deck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, these are strung between mountains, so I was up maybe 500 feet or something, not an unusual altitude for the kind of things we were doing. I don't remember exactly what the altitude was, but they didn't put those big balls on the cables so that you could see they were there in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened after that moment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was flying on the wing of John Carpenter. He was an air force major, on an exchange program with us. We talked it over and decided not to try to land it, because if I got a little bit too slow and started to snap, I would have no [ability] to control it after that, so consequently decided it would be better to jump out. So, took it down south into friendly territory and jumped out in the vicinity of Pohang Airport, K-3, which was operated by U.S. marines."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you eject or did you jump?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.077118329043401, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, these are strung between mountains, so I was up maybe 500 feet or something, not an unusual altitude for the kind of things we were doing. I don't remember exactly what the altitude was, but they didn't put those big balls on the cables so that you could see they were there in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened after that moment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was flying on the wing of John Carpenter. He was an air force major, on an exchange program with us. We talked it over and decided not to try to land it, because if I got a little bit too slow and started to snap, I would have no [ability] to control it after that, so consequently decided it would be better to jump out. So, took it down south into friendly territory and jumped out in the vicinity of Pohang Airport, K-3, which was operated by U.S. marines."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you eject or did you jump?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ejected. The old-style shotgun-shell-powered ejection seat, 22 G seat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you always wearing the parachute or did you have to put it on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.196798143381557, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was flying on the wing of John Carpenter. He was an air force major, on an exchange program with us. We talked it over and decided not to try to land it, because if I got a little bit too slow and started to snap, I would have no [ability] to control it after that, so consequently decided it would be better to jump out. So, took it down south into friendly territory and jumped out in the vicinity of Pohang Airport, K-3, which was operated by U.S. marines."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you eject or did you jump?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ejected. The old-style shotgun-shell-powered ejection seat, 22 G seat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you always wearing the parachute or did you have to put it on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We always had it on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Strapped into the small of your back?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.440886825979508, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ejected. The old-style shotgun-shell-powered ejection seat, 22 G seat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you always wearing the parachute or did you have to put it on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We always had it on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Strapped into the small of your back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had any parachute training?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.600985362199452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We always had it on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Strapped into the small of your back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had any parachute training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had not, but one of the gentlemen in the squadron, one of my classmates, actually, was assigned a collateral duty of being the equipment and escape officer, so he went over to parachute school, as I remember, in El Centro, California, and came back and told us how to do it, if the need ever arose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get rescued quickly once you landed, with no problem?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.778872624666057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had any parachute training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had not, but one of the gentlemen in the squadron, one of my classmates, actually, was assigned a collateral duty of being the equipment and escape officer, so he went over to parachute school, as I remember, in El Centro, California, and came back and told us how to do it, if the need ever arose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get rescued quickly once you landed, with no problem?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. A jeep drove up just as I was landing, from K-3. The driver was a roommate of mine in flight school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A roommate from where?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.087636249628952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had not, but one of the gentlemen in the squadron, one of my classmates, actually, was assigned a collateral duty of being the equipment and escape officer, so he went over to parachute school, as I remember, in El Centro, California, and came back and told us how to do it, if the need ever arose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get rescued quickly once you landed, with no problem?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. A jeep drove up just as I was landing, from K-3. The driver was a roommate of mine in flight school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A roommate from where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In flight school. He was now a marine lieutenant operating out of that field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was his name?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.430706944032169, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. A jeep drove up just as I was landing, from K-3. The driver was a roommate of mine in flight school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A roommate from where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In flight school. He was now a marine lieutenant operating out of that field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His name was Goodell Warren."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever during the war receive other heavy damage flying, from ground fire?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.923007715591298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In flight school. He was now a marine lieutenant operating out of that field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His name was Goodell Warren."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever during the war receive other heavy damage flying, from ground fire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a lot of bullet holes in our airplanes when we brought them back. We'd patch them up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Put a little duct tape over that hole."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 16.58111968399033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "His name was Goodell Warren."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever during the war receive other heavy damage flying, from ground fire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a lot of bullet holes in our airplanes when we brought them back. We'd patch them up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Put a little duct tape over that hole."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Made them look pretty good, painted it over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After your first month on the [USS] Essex [CV-9], then you had liberty in Japan when you'd get to spend time there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.534577426655924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a lot of bullet holes in our airplanes when we brought them back. We'd patch them up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Put a little duct tape over that hole."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Made them look pretty good, painted it over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After your first month on the [USS] Essex [CV-9], then you had liberty in Japan when you'd get to spend time there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Usually we'd spend four or five weeks at sea and then they would take the entire ship back to Yokosuka for a week of refurbishing and reprovisioning and things like that. About one day a week we did some reprovisioning at sea (fuel) …, but on a monthly basis, five weeks or something like that, we'd go back in for five days or six days, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could get aviation gasoline [av gas] while you were at sea? Or when you say fuel, you mean fuel for the carrier?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.593974918506582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Made them look pretty good, painted it over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After your first month on the [USS] Essex [CV-9], then you had liberty in Japan when you'd get to spend time there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Usually we'd spend four or five weeks at sea and then they would take the entire ship back to Yokosuka for a week of refurbishing and reprovisioning and things like that. About one day a week we did some reprovisioning at sea (fuel) …, but on a monthly basis, five weeks or something like that, we'd go back in for five days or six days, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could get aviation gasoline [av gas] while you were at sea? Or when you say fuel, you mean fuel for the carrier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't really know what all kinds of fuel, but they had a pipe, a hose that they could put over from the provisioning ship to the carrier. I assume they had both diesel and jet fuel, and maybe av gas, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about weather. North Korea, the whole of Korea is notorious for bad weather, and you're doing interdiction runs, so the weather is critical. Did you ever go off on a mission and you just couldn't find the target? Could you land carrying bombs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.77108324278509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Usually we'd spend four or five weeks at sea and then they would take the entire ship back to Yokosuka for a week of refurbishing and reprovisioning and things like that. About one day a week we did some reprovisioning at sea (fuel) …, but on a monthly basis, five weeks or something like that, we'd go back in for five days or six days, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could get aviation gasoline [av gas] while you were at sea? Or when you say fuel, you mean fuel for the carrier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't really know what all kinds of fuel, but they had a pipe, a hose that they could put over from the provisioning ship to the carrier. I assume they had both diesel and jet fuel, and maybe av gas, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about weather. North Korea, the whole of Korea is notorious for bad weather, and you're doing interdiction runs, so the weather is critical. Did you ever go off on a mission and you just couldn't find the target? Could you land carrying bombs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we'd—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or you'd jettison them in the sea?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.967870269761212, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't really know what all kinds of fuel, but they had a pipe, a hose that they could put over from the provisioning ship to the carrier. I assume they had both diesel and jet fuel, and maybe av gas, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about weather. North Korea, the whole of Korea is notorious for bad weather, and you're doing interdiction runs, so the weather is critical. Did you ever go off on a mission and you just couldn't find the target? Could you land carrying bombs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we'd—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or you'd jettison them in the sea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would usually jettison armaments prior to returning, and we tried to jettison on targets of opportunity at the end of the flight when we had either found or not found our primary target, due to, in some cases, weather. Normally we'd have alternates, so if there was weather, we would divert to another target. We had some weather information, because we had Allied forces in the south of Korea and we had other sources of information, so they were able to give us not a bad weather briefing of what we could expect in the target area. It wasn't always right, just like it isn't always right here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The teamwork and camaraderie experience on the Essex, is there any way to compare that at all to being in the astronaut corps or with engineers and contractors in the space program? The concept of teamwork now, this something that became a big part of your life from this point on. What was the teamwork aboard the Essex?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.297633633068013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we'd—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or you'd jettison them in the sea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would usually jettison armaments prior to returning, and we tried to jettison on targets of opportunity at the end of the flight when we had either found or not found our primary target, due to, in some cases, weather. Normally we'd have alternates, so if there was weather, we would divert to another target. We had some weather information, because we had Allied forces in the south of Korea and we had other sources of information, so they were able to give us not a bad weather briefing of what we could expect in the target area. It wasn't always right, just like it isn't always right here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The teamwork and camaraderie experience on the Essex, is there any way to compare that at all to being in the astronaut corps or with engineers and contractors in the space program? The concept of teamwork now, this something that became a big part of your life from this point on. What was the teamwork aboard the Essex?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was [a] teamwork operation, certainly. We had very few occasions when we would do anything on a solo basis. Almost everything we did as teams, and in our case we usually liked flights of four at least, to help each other out. Eight eyes are better than two in looking for trouble and looking for targets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A diamond formation with the four?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.552926258964458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would usually jettison armaments prior to returning, and we tried to jettison on targets of opportunity at the end of the flight when we had either found or not found our primary target, due to, in some cases, weather. Normally we'd have alternates, so if there was weather, we would divert to another target. We had some weather information, because we had Allied forces in the south of Korea and we had other sources of information, so they were able to give us not a bad weather briefing of what we could expect in the target area. It wasn't always right, just like it isn't always right here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The teamwork and camaraderie experience on the Essex, is there any way to compare that at all to being in the astronaut corps or with engineers and contractors in the space program? The concept of teamwork now, this something that became a big part of your life from this point on. What was the teamwork aboard the Essex?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was [a] teamwork operation, certainly. We had very few occasions when we would do anything on a solo basis. Almost everything we did as teams, and in our case we usually liked flights of four at least, to help each other out. Eight eyes are better than two in looking for trouble and looking for targets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A diamond formation with the four?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We used a formation, usually an echelon two airplanes each, separated by probably a quarter to a half mile. That would allow us to see a broad panorama both to the rear of the other—we would be looking after their tail and they would be looking after ours. That was a different approach than had been earlier introduced, or at least attributed to [Commander] Jimmy Thatch, the so-called Thatch Weave…. We did not use that technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you characterize your air group commander, Marsh Beebe and your squadron leader, E. M. Beauchamp? Did they have a big impact on you, teaching you, or did you get to learn from them new ways of flight that you hadn't previously on your on-the-job training on the Essex?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.61436250996051, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was [a] teamwork operation, certainly. We had very few occasions when we would do anything on a solo basis. Almost everything we did as teams, and in our case we usually liked flights of four at least, to help each other out. Eight eyes are better than two in looking for trouble and looking for targets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A diamond formation with the four?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We used a formation, usually an echelon two airplanes each, separated by probably a quarter to a half mile. That would allow us to see a broad panorama both to the rear of the other—we would be looking after their tail and they would be looking after ours. That was a different approach than had been earlier introduced, or at least attributed to [Commander] Jimmy Thatch, the so-called Thatch Weave…. We did not use that technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you characterize your air group commander, Marsh Beebe and your squadron leader, E. M. Beauchamp? Did they have a big impact on you, teaching you, or did you get to learn from them new ways of flight that you hadn't previously on your on-the-job training on the Essex?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew with Commander Beebe some, and thought he was quite a good air group commander, the first I'd known and certainly the first in any operational circumstances or any combat circumstances. So I wasn't in a position to be critical anyway. I was, one, inexperienced; two, a junior officer. I was delighted when I had the chance to fly with him.\\n\\n Ernie Beauchamp, a wonderful skipper, [I] had enormous respect for him. I thought he was—and is; he is alive today—a superior leader. I think if there was anything I learned from our skipper was that it's not how you look; it's how you perform."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you stay in touch with any of the men from your unit, or do they stay in touch with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.793736122178343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We used a formation, usually an echelon two airplanes each, separated by probably a quarter to a half mile. That would allow us to see a broad panorama both to the rear of the other—we would be looking after their tail and they would be looking after ours. That was a different approach than had been earlier introduced, or at least attributed to [Commander] Jimmy Thatch, the so-called Thatch Weave…. We did not use that technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you characterize your air group commander, Marsh Beebe and your squadron leader, E. M. Beauchamp? Did they have a big impact on you, teaching you, or did you get to learn from them new ways of flight that you hadn't previously on your on-the-job training on the Essex?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew with Commander Beebe some, and thought he was quite a good air group commander, the first I'd known and certainly the first in any operational circumstances or any combat circumstances. So I wasn't in a position to be critical anyway. I was, one, inexperienced; two, a junior officer. I was delighted when I had the chance to fly with him.\\n\\n Ernie Beauchamp, a wonderful skipper, [I] had enormous respect for him. I thought he was—and is; he is alive today—a superior leader. I think if there was anything I learned from our skipper was that it's not how you look; it's how you perform."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you stay in touch with any of the men from your unit, or do they stay in touch with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have periodic reunions, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever attend any of those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.993040135753715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew with Commander Beebe some, and thought he was quite a good air group commander, the first I'd known and certainly the first in any operational circumstances or any combat circumstances. So I wasn't in a position to be critical anyway. I was, one, inexperienced; two, a junior officer. I was delighted when I had the chance to fly with him.\\n\\n Ernie Beauchamp, a wonderful skipper, [I] had enormous respect for him. I thought he was—and is; he is alive today—a superior leader. I think if there was anything I learned from our skipper was that it's not how you look; it's how you perform."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you stay in touch with any of the men from your unit, or do they stay in touch with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have periodic reunions, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever attend any of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at one two months ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you really. They must be very proud, following your work with Apollo. But I guess to them you're just another one of the group."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.325600150837461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have periodic reunions, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever attend any of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at one two months ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you really. They must be very proud, following your work with Apollo. But I guess to them you're just another one of the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They've forgiven me for my errors. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you came home from Korea and you'd completed your obligatory time in the navy, and you went right back to Purdue to finish school. Is that right?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.695111278708291, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at one two months ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you really. They must be very proud, following your work with Apollo. But I guess to them you're just another one of the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They've forgiven me for my errors. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you came home from Korea and you'd completed your obligatory time in the navy, and you went right back to Purdue to finish school. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, my time expired when I was flying off the Essex, and so my options were to either extend or swim home. [Laughter] So I extended."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is a question that I sense you may not like, but the Air Group 5's operation became the basis for that [James S.] Michener's book, The Bridges at Toko-Ri. Have you read the book?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.21679030967588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They've forgiven me for my errors. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you came home from Korea and you'd completed your obligatory time in the navy, and you went right back to Purdue to finish school. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, my time expired when I was flying off the Essex, and so my options were to either extend or swim home. [Laughter] So I extended."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is a question that I sense you may not like, but the Air Group 5's operation became the basis for that [James S.] Michener's book, The Bridges at Toko-Ri. Have you read the book?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you like it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.685322566306532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, my time expired when I was flying off the Essex, and so my options were to either extend or swim home. [Laughter] So I extended."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is a question that I sense you may not like, but the Air Group 5's operation became the basis for that [James S.] Michener's book, The Bridges at Toko-Ri. Have you read the book?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you like it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was an excellent representation of the kinds of flying that we were doing there. It was identical, same kind of aircraft and the same class carrier. They put girls in the movie, which I didn't remember from my experience. [Laughter] Actually, Michener was on our ship. I think he went on three tours, two or three tours, you know, at four or five weeks at a crack, and would just sit around the wardroom in the evening or in the ready room in the daytime and listen to guys tell the actual stories. He didn't ask questions much or anything; he just kind of absorbed it all. So most of the things that happened in the book, which was quite a different book from any other book he's written in many ways, were actual events. Maybe he strung them together with different characters so they didn't happen precisely the way it would have been described in his novel, but, nevertheless, they were basically all adaptations of true stories that he used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you recognize yourself in any of those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.872580629229478, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you like it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was an excellent representation of the kinds of flying that we were doing there. It was identical, same kind of aircraft and the same class carrier. They put girls in the movie, which I didn't remember from my experience. [Laughter] Actually, Michener was on our ship. I think he went on three tours, two or three tours, you know, at four or five weeks at a crack, and would just sit around the wardroom in the evening or in the ready room in the daytime and listen to guys tell the actual stories. He didn't ask questions much or anything; he just kind of absorbed it all. So most of the things that happened in the book, which was quite a different book from any other book he's written in many ways, were actual events. Maybe he strung them together with different characters so they didn't happen precisely the way it would have been described in his novel, but, nevertheless, they were basically all adaptations of true stories that he used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you recognize yourself in any of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but one of my colleagues, named Leonard Cheshire, \"Chet,\" we called him, he didn't return. But I believe there [were] a lot of Chet Cheshire's stories in Bridges at Toko-Ri."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the time you did spend in Japan, do you have any memories of your time in Japan? Here's the boy from Ohio going to a foreign country and experiencing Japanese life."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.969534032477197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was an excellent representation of the kinds of flying that we were doing there. It was identical, same kind of aircraft and the same class carrier. They put girls in the movie, which I didn't remember from my experience. [Laughter] Actually, Michener was on our ship. I think he went on three tours, two or three tours, you know, at four or five weeks at a crack, and would just sit around the wardroom in the evening or in the ready room in the daytime and listen to guys tell the actual stories. He didn't ask questions much or anything; he just kind of absorbed it all. So most of the things that happened in the book, which was quite a different book from any other book he's written in many ways, were actual events. Maybe he strung them together with different characters so they didn't happen precisely the way it would have been described in his novel, but, nevertheless, they were basically all adaptations of true stories that he used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you recognize yourself in any of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but one of my colleagues, named Leonard Cheshire, \"Chet,\" we called him, he didn't return. But I believe there [were] a lot of Chet Cheshire's stories in Bridges at Toko-Ri."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the time you did spend in Japan, do you have any memories of your time in Japan? Here's the boy from Ohio going to a foreign country and experiencing Japanese life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We usually went to these R&R [rest and recreation] facilities that the navy had organized and set up for our use, going to the Fujiya Hotel a number of times in the shadow of Mount Fuji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you feel your time in the Korean War, which it's talked about as the forgotten war? You weren't questioning the politics involved in any way, with the cold war on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.188371147196886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but one of my colleagues, named Leonard Cheshire, \"Chet,\" we called him, he didn't return. But I believe there [were] a lot of Chet Cheshire's stories in Bridges at Toko-Ri."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the time you did spend in Japan, do you have any memories of your time in Japan? Here's the boy from Ohio going to a foreign country and experiencing Japanese life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We usually went to these R&R [rest and recreation] facilities that the navy had organized and set up for our use, going to the Fujiya Hotel a number of times in the shadow of Mount Fuji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you feel your time in the Korean War, which it's talked about as the forgotten war? You weren't questioning the politics involved in any way, with the cold war on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The naval aviators that I knew, first: were determined to do a first-class job. Second, most of them really enjoyed the combat experience in many ways. They'd rather be flying than not be flying. Lastly, they questioned everything. They'd talk about the Korean action and the reason for things and why certain targets might be available and others not be available, the same things that I suppose military people, it's the kind of questions they've asked themselves and talked among themselves throughout history. You're very much involved in the experience and questioning it is part of the natural things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you excited to return to civilian life after the war and get on with getting back to going to Purdue and back to finishing your college degree? You must have been older now, right, going back to college. You were one of the youngest pilots."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.43152349688543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We usually went to these R&R [rest and recreation] facilities that the navy had organized and set up for our use, going to the Fujiya Hotel a number of times in the shadow of Mount Fuji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you feel your time in the Korean War, which it's talked about as the forgotten war? You weren't questioning the politics involved in any way, with the cold war on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The naval aviators that I knew, first: were determined to do a first-class job. Second, most of them really enjoyed the combat experience in many ways. They'd rather be flying than not be flying. Lastly, they questioned everything. They'd talk about the Korean action and the reason for things and why certain targets might be available and others not be available, the same things that I suppose military people, it's the kind of questions they've asked themselves and talked among themselves throughout history. You're very much involved in the experience and questioning it is part of the natural things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you excited to return to civilian life after the war and get on with getting back to going to Purdue and back to finishing your college degree? You must have been older now, right, going back to college. You were one of the youngest pilots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was twenty-two. I was really getting old. [Laughter] When I went back to university, kids looked so young. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a decision to make or did you always say, \"I'm going back to Purdue and I'm going to finish this degree\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.812803885428254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The naval aviators that I knew, first: were determined to do a first-class job. Second, most of them really enjoyed the combat experience in many ways. They'd rather be flying than not be flying. Lastly, they questioned everything. They'd talk about the Korean action and the reason for things and why certain targets might be available and others not be available, the same things that I suppose military people, it's the kind of questions they've asked themselves and talked among themselves throughout history. You're very much involved in the experience and questioning it is part of the natural things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you excited to return to civilian life after the war and get on with getting back to going to Purdue and back to finishing your college degree? You must have been older now, right, going back to college. You were one of the youngest pilots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was twenty-two. I was really getting old. [Laughter] When I went back to university, kids looked so young. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a decision to make or did you always say, \"I'm going back to Purdue and I'm going to finish this degree\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were tempting options, but I decided—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To stay in the navy, for one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.34755987269806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was twenty-two. I was really getting old. [Laughter] When I went back to university, kids looked so young. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a decision to make or did you always say, \"I'm going back to Purdue and I'm going to finish this degree\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were tempting options, but I decided—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To stay in the navy, for one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To stay in the navy or otherwise use the skills that the navy had taught me. Those opportunities showed up periodically, but I thought it was important to go back and finish my education, so I put that in first position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you joined the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics [NACA] at that point. Did you then move to Cleveland [Ohio]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.052844302997844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were tempting options, but I decided—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To stay in the navy, for one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To stay in the navy or otherwise use the skills that the navy had taught me. Those opportunities showed up periodically, but I thought it was important to go back and finish my education, so I put that in first position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you joined the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics [NACA] at that point. Did you then move to Cleveland [Ohio]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. That was my first job out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.947604781108716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To stay in the navy or otherwise use the skills that the navy had taught me. Those opportunities showed up periodically, but I thought it was important to go back and finish my education, so I put that in first position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you joined the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics [NACA] at that point. Did you then move to Cleveland [Ohio]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. That was my first job out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just rented an apartment on your own or how did you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.052894201231904, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. That was my first job out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just rented an apartment on your own or how did you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I rented a room at first, in a private home, and later met one of the other young bachelor engineers there, and then we rented a small place for the two of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this close to the laboratory or in downtown Cleveland?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.280993556924336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just rented an apartment on your own or how did you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I rented a room at first, in a private home, and later met one of the other young bachelor engineers there, and then we rented a small place for the two of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this close to the laboratory or in downtown Cleveland?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was not far from the—I don't think we were more than ten minutes from work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you acquire an automobile?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.756659507693705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I rented a room at first, in a private home, and later met one of the other young bachelor engineers there, and then we rented a small place for the two of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this close to the laboratory or in downtown Cleveland?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was not far from the—I don't think we were more than ten minutes from work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you acquire an automobile?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you could go back home, too, to Cleveland or to Wapakoneta, to visit family."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 27.507399452993006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was not far from the—I don't think we were more than ten minutes from work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you acquire an automobile?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you could go back home, too, to Cleveland or to Wapakoneta, to visit family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And return back. What were your general duties and responsibilities there at the laboratory in Cleveland?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.56881489558452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only product of the NACA was research reports and papers. So when you prepared something for publication, either as a principal or associate author of some sort, you had to face the \"Inquisition,\" which was the review of said paper by experts who were predominantly lady English teachers or librarians who were absolutely unbearably critical of the tiniest punctuation or grammatical error, and that is what NASA needs today. [Laughter] Because it really made a good product. The rigor of the language, which I never mastered, but I appreciated after being exposed to those charming ladies who were so tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know exactly what you mean. That's my wife that you're talking about. [Armstrong laughs.] And I get asked, \"What's the secret to being a successful writer?\" I say, \"Marry an English major.\"\n\nWhen you left Cleveland, did you drive from Cleveland to California with your car?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're married at this time, so you're driving together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not married, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this your first cross-country trek, seeing the Rockies?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:210", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.9653498839828, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're married at this time, so you're driving together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not married, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this your first cross-country trek, seeing the Rockies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, because I'd driven—I first got my car when I was in the navy, so I had driven from the West Coast across the country before, to and from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go immediately when you went to California? What was your destination city? You were going to Edwards?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:212", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.517055426647556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not married, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this your first cross-country trek, seeing the Rockies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, because I'd driven—I first got my car when I was in the navy, so I had driven from the West Coast across the country before, to and from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go immediately when you went to California? What was your destination city? You were going to Edwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Edwards, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you're also eventually going to the University of Southern California [Los Angeles, California]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:214", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 27.24117269627506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, because I'd driven—I first got my car when I was in the navy, so I had driven from the West Coast across the country before, to and from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go immediately when you went to California? What was your destination city? You were going to Edwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Edwards, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you're also eventually going to the University of Southern California [Los Angeles, California]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was later. That was later. I went directly to my job at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you started flying X-15s when you got there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:216", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.71241410697229, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Edwards, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you're also eventually going to the University of Southern California [Los Angeles, California]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was later. That was later. I went directly to my job at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you started flying X-15s when you got there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at the time, I went there in '55, summer of '55, and the X-15 was just put under contract in November of '55. It wouldn't be completed [till] four years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first projects there when you got to Edwards?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:218", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.347126785524765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was later. That was later. I went directly to my job at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you started flying X-15s when you got there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at the time, I went there in '55, summer of '55, and the X-15 was just put under contract in November of '55. It wouldn't be completed [till] four years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first projects there when you got to Edwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd have to look in my log to be sure. First they wanted me to learn a little bit of the NACA techniques for data collection and so on, and they had a P-51 [Mustang] that they had very rudimentary instruments and data-collection techniques for. They made me go out there and do a lot of flights and practice a lot of maneuvers for test purposes, and turn in the results so they could see whether I was starting to get the hang of it. Took me a while, but it was a good experience—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did I hear you say P-51?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:220", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.274585317249738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at the time, I went there in '55, summer of '55, and the X-15 was just put under contract in November of '55. It wouldn't be completed [till] four years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first projects there when you got to Edwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd have to look in my log to be sure. First they wanted me to learn a little bit of the NACA techniques for data collection and so on, and they had a P-51 [Mustang] that they had very rudimentary instruments and data-collection techniques for. They made me go out there and do a lot of flights and practice a lot of maneuvers for test purposes, and turn in the results so they could see whether I was starting to get the hang of it. Took me a while, but it was a good experience—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did I hear you say P-51?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about that plane."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:222", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.416205908055264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd have to look in my log to be sure. First they wanted me to learn a little bit of the NACA techniques for data collection and so on, and they had a P-51 [Mustang] that they had very rudimentary instruments and data-collection techniques for. They made me go out there and do a lot of flights and practice a lot of maneuvers for test purposes, and turn in the results so they could see whether I was starting to get the hang of it. Took me a while, but it was a good experience—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did I hear you say P-51?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about that plane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's no F8F, but it's not a bad airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was interviewing one of the Tuskegee Airmen who flew P-51s in Italy, and he said, \"That was such a honey of an airplane, if it had been a girl, I'd have married it.\""}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:224", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 34.90689545339474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about that plane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's no F8F, but it's not a bad airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was interviewing one of the Tuskegee Airmen who flew P-51s in Italy, and he said, \"That was such a honey of an airplane, if it had been a girl, I'd have married it.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] It is a nice airplane, and wonderful sound, particularly when you retarded the throttle and you got those stacks putt-putt-putting. It was quite elegant. I enjoyed flying the airplane. Just didn't have the performance of an F8F, but it was built [to fly at] high altitude. Well, it first was built to be an attack airplane, not a fighter, but a fighter version of it became predominantly a high-altitude escort long-range aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, continue with—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:228", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 29.514685744931775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] It is a nice airplane, and wonderful sound, particularly when you retarded the throttle and you got those stacks putt-putt-putting. It was quite elegant. I enjoyed flying the airplane. Just didn't have the performance of an F8F, but it was built [to fly at] high altitude. Well, it first was built to be an attack airplane, not a fighter, but a fighter version of it became predominantly a high-altitude escort long-range aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, continue with—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other airplanes? They flew some other jets. They had a YRF-84F [Thunderflash]. When I got there, I was the fifth pilot. One was going to leave. [A.] Scott Crossfield had announced that he was going to go be the pilot on the X-15 program, whoever won it. He was going to go there and had agreements with all the different bidders, that if they won the contract, he would get the job. So told them he was going to leave, and that's what gave me the opportunity to transfer there.\\n\\n They had five pilots, and, if memory serves, seventeen aircraft, pretty much all different. A lot of X-airplanes [experimental] and fighters, the B-47 [Stratojet] and R4D and a couple of B-29s [Superfortress], all kinds of exotic aircraft. So they let me fly a few of these at first, and as they became more confident in my abilities and as I became more experienced, why, they gave me more and more jobs.\\n\\n I did a lot of different test programs in those days. That was the first time I ever flew supersonically, when I got an F-100 [Super Sabre], and I flew that aircraft a lot, a very nice early F-100."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you flew a B-29?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a big plane."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:230", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 28.34965082770197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other airplanes? They flew some other jets. They had a YRF-84F [Thunderflash]. When I got there, I was the fifth pilot. One was going to leave. [A.] Scott Crossfield had announced that he was going to go be the pilot on the X-15 program, whoever won it. He was going to go there and had agreements with all the different bidders, that if they won the contract, he would get the job. So told them he was going to leave, and that's what gave me the opportunity to transfer there.\\n\\n They had five pilots, and, if memory serves, seventeen aircraft, pretty much all different. A lot of X-airplanes [experimental] and fighters, the B-47 [Stratojet] and R4D and a couple of B-29s [Superfortress], all kinds of exotic aircraft. So they let me fly a few of these at first, and as they became more confident in my abilities and as I became more experienced, why, they gave me more and more jobs.\\n\\n I did a lot of different test programs in those days. That was the first time I ever flew supersonically, when I got an F-100 [Super Sabre], and I flew that aircraft a lot, a very nice early F-100."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you flew a B-29?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a big plane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had two that we used for dropping rocket aircraft, the X-1s and the [Douglas D-558-2] Skyrockets. So I, either as the right-seat or the left-seat guy in the B-29, launched over 100 rocket airplanes in the fifties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A couple of your X-15 flights became pretty well known, one in which you lost your stability and had to recover, and then there's also the mission which you ended with the longest X-15 flight on record, when you had to fly back to Edwards from the south. Do you mind just commenting on particularly those two flights?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:238", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 22.602729504194436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You always do. There's no power on the aircraft, so you're always a glider after the rocket burns out. The rocket only [burned for] a minute and a half."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did any of these difficulties you had at Edwards, later with Dave [David R.] Scott and Gemini [VIII], did any of these experiences teach you kind of grace under pressure? When you had later problems with Mr. Scott and Gemini, how did these things—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I always felt that the risks that we had in the space side of the program were probably less than we [had] back in flying at Edwards or the general flight-test community. The reason is that when we were out exploring the frontiers, we were out at the edges of the flight envelope all the time, testing limits. Our knowledge base was probably not as good as it was in the space program. We had less technical insurance, less minds looking, less backup programs, less other analysis going on. That isn't to say that we didn't expect risks in the space program; we certainly expected they would be there, were guaranteed that they would be there. But we felt pretty comfortable because we had so much technical backup and we didn't go nearly close to the limits as much as we did back in the old flight-test days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you ever read, would you like commenting on Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff? Do you feel it captured the climate around Edwards in any way, shape, or form, or is it exaggerated?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven't read the book critically. I'm not sure I've read it all. I've read a bit. I did see the movie. I thought it was very good filmmaking, but terrible history; the wrong people working on the wrong projects at the wrong times. It bears no resemblance whatever to what was actually going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to live out around Edwards at that time, you were right near the base?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:240", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.89192167132715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I always felt that the risks that we had in the space side of the program were probably less than we [had] back in flying at Edwards or the general flight-test community. The reason is that when we were out exploring the frontiers, we were out at the edges of the flight envelope all the time, testing limits. Our knowledge base was probably not as good as it was in the space program. We had less technical insurance, less minds looking, less backup programs, less other analysis going on. That isn't to say that we didn't expect risks in the space program; we certainly expected they would be there, were guaranteed that they would be there. But we felt pretty comfortable because we had so much technical backup and we didn't go nearly close to the limits as much as we did back in the old flight-test days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you ever read, would you like commenting on Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff? Do you feel it captured the climate around Edwards in any way, shape, or form, or is it exaggerated?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven't read the book critically. I'm not sure I've read it all. I've read a bit. I did see the movie. I thought it was very good filmmaking, but terrible history; the wrong people working on the wrong projects at the wrong times. It bears no resemblance whatever to what was actually going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to live out around Edwards at that time, you were right near the base?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived about an hour drive away, south. Nobody lived close. A half hour is about as close as you could live. Big base."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point in your life when you're telling all these stories to us, do you miss the opportunity of flying in that kind of way, on a regular basis, like you were doing back then? Sometimes you almost get nostalgic for those days at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:242", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.435468523696834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven't read the book critically. I'm not sure I've read it all. I've read a bit. I did see the movie. I thought it was very good filmmaking, but terrible history; the wrong people working on the wrong projects at the wrong times. It bears no resemblance whatever to what was actually going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to live out around Edwards at that time, you were right near the base?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived about an hour drive away, south. Nobody lived close. A half hour is about as close as you could live. Big base."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point in your life when you're telling all these stories to us, do you miss the opportunity of flying in that kind of way, on a regular basis, like you were doing back then? Sometimes you almost get nostalgic for those days at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a very exciting job and very excellent flying, very challenging goals. I think it was certainly one of the memorable parts of my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you flew in today, do you ever sit on the airplane and think, \"God, I wish I could pilot this. I've got the itch. I wish I could just sit in the—\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:244", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 28.26163169299648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived about an hour drive away, south. Nobody lived close. A half hour is about as close as you could live. Big base."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point in your life when you're telling all these stories to us, do you miss the opportunity of flying in that kind of way, on a regular basis, like you were doing back then? Sometimes you almost get nostalgic for those days at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a very exciting job and very excellent flying, very challenging goals. I think it was certainly one of the memorable parts of my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you flew in today, do you ever sit on the airplane and think, \"God, I wish I could pilot this. I've got the itch. I wish I could just sit in the—\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still a legal pilot and I still enjoy it as much as I always did…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We were out at Edwards. I was just wondering if you could comment on the air force's Dyna-Soar [Dynamic Soaring] program and how did you decide upon the Douglas F5D-1 Skylancer as the suitable demonstrator for parts of the Dyna-Soar flight profile. And did you develop any procedures based on flying this aircraft?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:252", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.39129963876921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our principal responsibility was engineering work. We did not do a lot of flying. It was program development, devising simulations, looking at the problems of flight, and trying to figure out ways we could test those things and devise solutions to those problems. It was a wonderful time period and it was very satisfying work, particularly when you found a solution that would work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know about the first call for astronauts that went out to military test pilots? I was wondering what your thoughts may have been when you learned about the astronaut program, when you first started realizing it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were certainly aware of it, both through NASA, because NACA had become NASA by this time, and also from our colleagues in the military, good friends and people we flew with daily, some of whom had been invited to consider applying for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were at Edwards, did you develop a close friendship with other astronauts with people that later, or did you stay more to yourself and your own life, or do you guys all socialize?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew a number of the air force people at Edwards who later transferred to Houston like I did. But I wouldn't say that I knew them very well, not nearly as well as I knew the other NASA pilots and NASA engineers, for that matter. They were on a different part of the base. We occasionally had meetings where we would be discussing the same subjects and we would see them probably more frequently in the air when they were out on our wing tip with an F-104 [Starfighter] or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In this period, the notion of space in the ‘50s is starting to be talked about. NASA is officially now NASA. [President Dwight D.] Eisenhower administration. Do you have any thoughts on some of the early events of the space race, such as the launch of Sputnik? Do you remember your feeling, on hearing about Sputnik and Explorer 1? Were you conscious of the politics of the cold war going on with the race into space at that time when you were at Edwards?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:268", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.31954828515093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Monkeys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that kind of an attitude that prevailed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the part of some, yes. At the time the Mercury program was started, it might well have gone that way. In a sense it did, in that they had a lot of monkey flights and so on, chimp flights. But I believe that the reason it did not keep that characterization was that the Mercury crewmen insisted on making it an airplane-like device, have the same conventions as normal airplanes, so that your natural instincts were proper, and insist that the crewmen be able to perceive enough and see enough and have sufficient information available, … that he could make reasonable choices about proper alternatives in how to control the craft in a manner that would maximize the ability to get toward the objective.\\n\\n So I think that was a great contribution on the part of the Mercury guys, who were probably abrasive to some of the engineering managers in that time in their demands that the craft be built in this way. So that certainly was important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any encounters with Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager during this period at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I've known Chuck for, you know, forty-something years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just curious, is he somebody that other pilots look up to as this extraordinary pilot, or is he just another one of the guys?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:270", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.355053650167697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the part of some, yes. At the time the Mercury program was started, it might well have gone that way. In a sense it did, in that they had a lot of monkey flights and so on, chimp flights. But I believe that the reason it did not keep that characterization was that the Mercury crewmen insisted on making it an airplane-like device, have the same conventions as normal airplanes, so that your natural instincts were proper, and insist that the crewmen be able to perceive enough and see enough and have sufficient information available, … that he could make reasonable choices about proper alternatives in how to control the craft in a manner that would maximize the ability to get toward the objective.\\n\\n So I think that was a great contribution on the part of the Mercury guys, who were probably abrasive to some of the engineering managers in that time in their demands that the craft be built in this way. So that certainly was important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any encounters with Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager during this period at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I've known Chuck for, you know, forty-something years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just curious, is he somebody that other pilots look up to as this extraordinary pilot, or is he just another one of the guys?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think people recognize that he was a good pilot, a stick and rudder man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's become almost a mythological pilot. The legend of Chuck Yeager has become—do you think that's just through books and media, things like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:272", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.61672627796411, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I've known Chuck for, you know, forty-something years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just curious, is he somebody that other pilots look up to as this extraordinary pilot, or is he just another one of the guys?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think people recognize that he was a good pilot, a stick and rudder man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's become almost a mythological pilot. The legend of Chuck Yeager has become—do you think that's just through books and media, things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll pass."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the astronaut selection progress like, and what kinds of physical and psychological tests were you subjected to once you made that decision on your part?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:274", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.129695864404564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think people recognize that he was a good pilot, a stick and rudder man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's become almost a mythological pilot. The legend of Chuck Yeager has become—do you think that's just through books and media, things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll pass."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the astronaut selection progress like, and what kinds of physical and psychological tests were you subjected to once you made that decision on your part?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't think the community of flight medicine and flight physiology knew very much what they needed to do at that point. There were widespread predictions that humans could not survive in space, for a variety of reasons, both physical, physiological and mental and psychological, all kinds of reasons. So they didn't really know exactly what to test for, I think, so they did everything. They didn't miss anything, as far as I know. They did every test known to man. [Laughter] Not necessarily fun. Survivable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You obviously passed all those with flying colors."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:276", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 27.92188429378285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll pass."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the astronaut selection progress like, and what kinds of physical and psychological tests were you subjected to once you made that decision on your part?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't think the community of flight medicine and flight physiology knew very much what they needed to do at that point. There were widespread predictions that humans could not survive in space, for a variety of reasons, both physical, physiological and mental and psychological, all kinds of reasons. So they didn't really know exactly what to test for, I think, so they did everything. They didn't miss anything, as far as I know. They did every test known to man. [Laughter] Not necessarily fun. Survivable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You obviously passed all those with flying colors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know what the results were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first experience? Suddenly you're now in the astronaut ranks. What became your impressions of the Space Task Group, and how did that differ from being out in California?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:278", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.80209365975872, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't think the community of flight medicine and flight physiology knew very much what they needed to do at that point. There were widespread predictions that humans could not survive in space, for a variety of reasons, both physical, physiological and mental and psychological, all kinds of reasons. So they didn't really know exactly what to test for, I think, so they did everything. They didn't miss anything, as far as I know. They did every test known to man. [Laughter] Not necessarily fun. Survivable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You obviously passed all those with flying colors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know what the results were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first experience? Suddenly you're now in the astronaut ranks. What became your impressions of the Space Task Group, and how did that differ from being out in California?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, a lot of the people in Space Task Group I'd known for some years. They mostly came from Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia], although some actually came from Edwards. Some came from Ames [Research Center, Mountain View, California], but predominantly Langley. I had known them in my work at Edwards, because they were very much involved in the analytical and the wind tunnel work that supported the kind of work that we were doing.\\n\\n Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth was a wonderful man, who was a superb handling-qualities expert, [among] the best in the world. I knew Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] and Max [Maxime A.] Faget. I remember the discussions earlier that we'd had at conferences on these subjects of blunt shapes and flying bodies and winged vehicles and so on, which were the best configurations and what were the pluses and minuses of different routes to go into space. So I came in with a high confidence level that these were people who I could respect, and knew had the background and the inclination and the determination to do what would lie ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your job now as an astronaut differ from being a test pilot what were the first things that you realized were going to be different for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:288", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.37207007698474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To a lesser extent, because once you get on a flight crew, a very large percentage of your time is committed. So at that point in time, and before we had many new guys come in, we had a bit of a gap, in my perspective. Too many people were—they were gladly assigned to flight crews, but it left some openings behind us and some things weren't covered to the degree we would have liked them to have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel when President [John F.] Kennedy made his great challenge to put a man on the Moon in that speech, not just yourself, but the whole team you were with? Was that a moment where you really—can you recall Kennedy's speech and can you recall that kind of commitment that came out of President Kennedy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I certainly remember it, but it's a big hazy because I've heard recordings of it so many times since, that you're not certain whether you're remembering or you're remembering what you're remembering. So I'm not certain what it was. And, of course, it's been colored by the fact that I read so many stories of how that process actually occurred and what led to his conclusion to do that. I guess I've been persuaded by historians that it wouldn't have been his first choice, but he didn't find any other good options to go against the Soviets with. The world was caught up in what the Soviets were doing. And he'd campaigned against Lyndon [Baines Johnson] on the basis that we were behind in rocketry. And [Richard M.] Nixon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Against Nixon, too, of course. Against Eisenhower, really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I'm thinking of the youngness of all of you, and here's this young president saying that. Did you feel like he was part of the team, like he was a leader now? With President Kennedy we really had a leader that wanted to put the space program on the forefront of the American agenda?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:290", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.52452230776082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I certainly remember it, but it's a big hazy because I've heard recordings of it so many times since, that you're not certain whether you're remembering or you're remembering what you're remembering. So I'm not certain what it was. And, of course, it's been colored by the fact that I read so many stories of how that process actually occurred and what led to his conclusion to do that. I guess I've been persuaded by historians that it wouldn't have been his first choice, but he didn't find any other good options to go against the Soviets with. The world was caught up in what the Soviets were doing. And he'd campaigned against Lyndon [Baines Johnson] on the basis that we were behind in rocketry. And [Richard M.] Nixon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Against Nixon, too, of course. Against Eisenhower, really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I'm thinking of the youngness of all of you, and here's this young president saying that. Did you feel like he was part of the team, like he was a leader now? With President Kennedy we really had a leader that wanted to put the space program on the forefront of the American agenda?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our concern always was, \"What will the Congress do?\" Because the president can proclaim, but it's the Congress that makes things happen. So that's really where the question was. As it turned out, they were motivated to support the president in this area, which I'm not sure I necessarily would have guessed at that point, based on my recollection of priorities—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me go back for a second to the event that got the president to say, \"We're going to get to the Moon.\" You were a combat pilot in the Korean War. That was only a decade earlier. You were at the very cutting edge of test pilot and working on all the things that you were working on at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Did you guys pay much attention to that? Was there a feeling of, \"God almighty! We want to be in on this!\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:292", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.582802564178689, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I'm thinking of the youngness of all of you, and here's this young president saying that. Did you feel like he was part of the team, like he was a leader now? With President Kennedy we really had a leader that wanted to put the space program on the forefront of the American agenda?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our concern always was, \"What will the Congress do?\" Because the president can proclaim, but it's the Congress that makes things happen. So that's really where the question was. As it turned out, they were motivated to support the president in this area, which I'm not sure I necessarily would have guessed at that point, based on my recollection of priorities—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me go back for a second to the event that got the president to say, \"We're going to get to the Moon.\" You were a combat pilot in the Korean War. That was only a decade earlier. You were at the very cutting edge of test pilot and working on all the things that you were working on at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Did you guys pay much attention to that? Was there a feeling of, \"God almighty! We want to be in on this!\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was, because (you remember at the time) it was a time of such incredibly high tension nationally and internationally, and I think everyone felt we were right on the brink of potential World War III. I don't think anybody, even the people in the back woods of Montana, were unaware of this tension, this heightened sense of tension. I was very aware of it. I thought that we could shove aside all the work we're doing in favor of other things that the country decided were more important from a strategic point of view."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about you and the people you were working with? Did you feel like, \"What are we doing this for? Because we need to be a part—if there's going to be World War III, we want to be a part of it, and what we're aiming at right now, what we're trying to do is like yesterday's newspaper.\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:294", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.758669515754098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our concern always was, \"What will the Congress do?\" Because the president can proclaim, but it's the Congress that makes things happen. So that's really where the question was. As it turned out, they were motivated to support the president in this area, which I'm not sure I necessarily would have guessed at that point, based on my recollection of priorities—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me go back for a second to the event that got the president to say, \"We're going to get to the Moon.\" You were a combat pilot in the Korean War. That was only a decade earlier. You were at the very cutting edge of test pilot and working on all the things that you were working on at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Did you guys pay much attention to that? Was there a feeling of, \"God almighty! We want to be in on this!\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was, because (you remember at the time) it was a time of such incredibly high tension nationally and internationally, and I think everyone felt we were right on the brink of potential World War III. I don't think anybody, even the people in the back woods of Montana, were unaware of this tension, this heightened sense of tension. I was very aware of it. I thought that we could shove aside all the work we're doing in favor of other things that the country decided were more important from a strategic point of view."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about you and the people you were working with? Did you feel like, \"What are we doing this for? Because we need to be a part—if there's going to be World War III, we want to be a part of it, and what we're aiming at right now, what we're trying to do is like yesterday's newspaper.\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. That was a concern, but at the time I think the reality was, you've got your job to do and you just go ahead and do it, and keep doing it and hope for the best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As in the events of last Tuesday [September 11, 2001]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:296", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.065188350837888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was, because (you remember at the time) it was a time of such incredibly high tension nationally and internationally, and I think everyone felt we were right on the brink of potential World War III. I don't think anybody, even the people in the back woods of Montana, were unaware of this tension, this heightened sense of tension. I was very aware of it. I thought that we could shove aside all the work we're doing in favor of other things that the country decided were more important from a strategic point of view."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about you and the people you were working with? Did you feel like, \"What are we doing this for? Because we need to be a part—if there's going to be World War III, we want to be a part of it, and what we're aiming at right now, what we're trying to do is like yesterday's newspaper.\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. That was a concern, but at the time I think the reality was, you've got your job to do and you just go ahead and do it, and keep doing it and hope for the best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As in the events of last Tuesday [September 11, 2001]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Just carry on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] made his famous flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:298", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.51687594537543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. That was a concern, but at the time I think the reality was, you've got your job to do and you just go ahead and do it, and keep doing it and hope for the best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As in the events of last Tuesday [September 11, 2001]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Just carry on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] made his famous flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at Edwards at the time, but I can't remember where specifically I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The same question with John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. Do you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:300", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.129862161528255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Just carry on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] made his famous flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at Edwards at the time, but I can't remember where specifically I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The same question with John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. Do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was at home at the time, I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Watching it on the television news, reading about it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:302", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 16.810957957253617, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at Edwards at the time, but I can't remember where specifically I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The same question with John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. Do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was at home at the time, I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Watching it on the television news, reading about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was very early in the morning. I was in California, as I remember. I think it was dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall when it was you were assigned to the Gemini V mission? And what were your thoughts at that time? How was training for that mission different than your general training? How did your life change when you suddenly were assigned to the mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:304", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.67884217472624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was at home at the time, I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Watching it on the television news, reading about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was very early in the morning. I was in California, as I remember. I think it was dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall when it was you were assigned to the Gemini V mission? And what were your thoughts at that time? How was training for that mission different than your general training? How did your life change when you suddenly were assigned to the mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was really pleased to be assigned to a flight, and quite satisfied to be in that position of backing up [L.] Gordon Cooper. It was quite a change from the time before, when we were working lots of general projects and trying to build pieces here and there, to all of a sudden having a pretty much complete focus on achieving the objectives of that flight, which was originally intended to be a one-week-long flight, [the first] long-duration flight. There were a lot of other [parts] besides just long-duration, but that was the principal objective.\\n\\n Elliot [M.] See was my associate on the backup crew. [Charles] Pete Conrad [Jr.] was flying the right seat in that flight. We were a very close team. We spent almost all our time together for months on end, getting ready for that flight, both going back and forth between Houston—spent a lot of time at the [McDonnell] plant in St. Louis [Missouri], working with the spacecraft as it was nearing completion, and participating in the testing of that spacecraft. So we all knew it very well by the time it was shipped to the Cape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say \"spent almost all our time,\" your meals, too?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:306", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.420935749695822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was very early in the morning. I was in California, as I remember. I think it was dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall when it was you were assigned to the Gemini V mission? And what were your thoughts at that time? How was training for that mission different than your general training? How did your life change when you suddenly were assigned to the mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was really pleased to be assigned to a flight, and quite satisfied to be in that position of backing up [L.] Gordon Cooper. It was quite a change from the time before, when we were working lots of general projects and trying to build pieces here and there, to all of a sudden having a pretty much complete focus on achieving the objectives of that flight, which was originally intended to be a one-week-long flight, [the first] long-duration flight. There were a lot of other [parts] besides just long-duration, but that was the principal objective.\\n\\n Elliot [M.] See was my associate on the backup crew. [Charles] Pete Conrad [Jr.] was flying the right seat in that flight. We were a very close team. We spent almost all our time together for months on end, getting ready for that flight, both going back and forth between Houston—spent a lot of time at the [McDonnell] plant in St. Louis [Missouri], working with the spacecraft as it was nearing completion, and participating in the testing of that spacecraft. So we all knew it very well by the time it was shipped to the Cape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say \"spent almost all our time,\" your meals, too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We ate together. Not when we were in St. Louis. We certainly were at home. We'd get home sometimes. But the reality of the world in those days is that a lot of the testing took place at two o'clock in the morning or four-thirty in the morning, and we were spelling each other off. We would spend enormous amounts of time together, working out the details."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was single-minded. You weren't bullshitting about the latest play that you saw or the latest novel you'd read."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:310", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.927081172463978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We ate together. Not when we were in St. Louis. We certainly were at home. We'd get home sometimes. But the reality of the world in those days is that a lot of the testing took place at two o'clock in the morning or four-thirty in the morning, and we were spelling each other off. We would spend enormous amounts of time together, working out the details."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was single-minded. You weren't bullshitting about the latest play that you saw or the latest novel you'd read."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I would not say that we never cracked a joke or talked about something off the project, but we were 98 percent focused on the job we had to do. I was and my perception of my colleagues was the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is part of the popular perception, I guess, and it appears in some of the literature that the other astronauts have put out, that there was a lot of jockeying for position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of tension about who's going to get on this mission or that mission, who's going to be backup, etc. Your reputation is the exact opposite of that. I would like to hear you speak about that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:312", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.80786796940442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I would not say that we never cracked a joke or talked about something off the project, but we were 98 percent focused on the job we had to do. I was and my perception of my colleagues was the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is part of the popular perception, I guess, and it appears in some of the literature that the other astronauts have put out, that there was a lot of jockeying for position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of tension about who's going to get on this mission or that mission, who's going to be backup, etc. Your reputation is the exact opposite of that. I would like to hear you speak about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was so pleased to be associated with the program, because it was going, it was happening, it was exciting. The goals, I thought, were important to not just the United States, but to society in general. I would have been happy doing anything they told me to do. It's probably true that I was less inclined to be concerned about just what job I had than some were. I think they're all different people, they all had different kinds of views on that subject.\\n\\n It wasn't as obvious to me as some of the stories I've read have portrayed it. I looked forward to an actual flight assignment as much as anyone, as opposed to being in the backup role, but the backup role, I thought, was an important job, and just might turn out that we had to be ready, and we were going to be ready. As you know, in some flights it did turn out that the backup crews, or members of them, had to step in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the mission, how closely were you involved with evaluating various problems, like fuel cell problems or the thruster excess water production? What were your duties in assisting evaluation for, say, fuel cell problems? Did you have a specialty that you really knew more than the others?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:318", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.966897077372319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not a fuel cell expert. We were at the Cape. Elliot See and [I] came back immediately after launch and actually talked to the spacecraft when it went overhead at the end of the first orbit, from our T-38, on VHF [very high frequency], and came back and landed immediately, went to mission control and made ourselves available to help with the flight. So we were both involved throughout that entire flight. Certainly all the various problems that they bumped into on that flight, we were very much involved, but I can't recall any specific aspects of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were, then, the different requirements for the commander as opposed to a pilot on these missions? What made the commander—what different responsibilities did the commander have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we tried to divide the responsibilities such that each crew person was about equally loaded. We tried for each person to be able to know how to do everything if they had to, but we divided the responsibilities such that each would go into their area in [substantially] more depth. That worked pretty well. I don't think it was practical or maybe even possible for both crew men to know everything in the same degree of depth on every subject. So it was a shared responsibility situation.\\n\\n The commander, I guess, principally differs because he has the responsibility for the decisions, just as the commander of a ship or commander of an airliner or anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If necessary, the commander can override."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He's always responsible for his craft. There was probably more concern as to when there were differences of opinion, would be the differences of opinion between those in flight and those in mission control, but I think we worked that out pretty well. We had great respect [for] the guys down there, the guys and gals in mission control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask about the relations between mission controllers and the astronaut corps. You just characterized it during this period—I guess you did—as pretty good. You felt there was respect for each other's job. But did tensions flare? \"Hey, you don't realize what we're dealing with, guys?\""}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:320", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.85210786374702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we tried to divide the responsibilities such that each crew person was about equally loaded. We tried for each person to be able to know how to do everything if they had to, but we divided the responsibilities such that each would go into their area in [substantially] more depth. That worked pretty well. I don't think it was practical or maybe even possible for both crew men to know everything in the same degree of depth on every subject. So it was a shared responsibility situation.\\n\\n The commander, I guess, principally differs because he has the responsibility for the decisions, just as the commander of a ship or commander of an airliner or anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If necessary, the commander can override."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He's always responsible for his craft. There was probably more concern as to when there were differences of opinion, would be the differences of opinion between those in flight and those in mission control, but I think we worked that out pretty well. We had great respect [for] the guys down there, the guys and gals in mission control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask about the relations between mission controllers and the astronaut corps. You just characterized it during this period—I guess you did—as pretty good. You felt there was respect for each other's job. But did tensions flare? \"Hey, you don't realize what we're dealing with, guys?\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes it did. We were fortunate that on the flights I was involved in, I don't think we had any problems of any significant magnitude in that category. Generally the people in flight and the people in mission control were on the same frequency most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was not a \"we\" and \"them\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:322", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.835675404163355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He's always responsible for his craft. There was probably more concern as to when there were differences of opinion, would be the differences of opinion between those in flight and those in mission control, but I think we worked that out pretty well. We had great respect [for] the guys down there, the guys and gals in mission control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask about the relations between mission controllers and the astronaut corps. You just characterized it during this period—I guess you did—as pretty good. You felt there was respect for each other's job. But did tensions flare? \"Hey, you don't realize what we're dealing with, guys?\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes it did. We were fortunate that on the flights I was involved in, I don't think we had any problems of any significant magnitude in that category. Generally the people in flight and the people in mission control were on the same frequency most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was not a \"we\" and \"them\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It's \"we\" and \"we.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe a little bit your training for the Gemini VIII mission? How was that different from your other training?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:324", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.817417115737062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes it did. We were fortunate that on the flights I was involved in, I don't think we had any problems of any significant magnitude in that category. Generally the people in flight and the people in mission control were on the same frequency most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was not a \"we\" and \"them\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It's \"we\" and \"we.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe a little bit your training for the Gemini VIII mission? How was that different from your other training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd already been through one cycle with Gemini V. I knew generally the content of the preparation. The differences were those things that would be different between the flights. We were going to have a rendezvous, which Gemini V did not have. We were going to have an extravehicular backpack in the back. We had experiments that were different than the experiments on Gemini V. So we probably concentrated somewhat more on the things that were different.\\n\\n We still did practice the rendezvous and practiced the launches and practiced the entry steering and all those kinds of thing. You had to sort of fill the squares and make sure you had done enough of those that you felt confident in your ability and people that were watching you on the ground, and…grading how you did. You also felt confident that you were in control of your destiny."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well did you know Dave Scott at the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:326", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.797130128596734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It's \"we\" and \"we.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe a little bit your training for the Gemini VIII mission? How was that different from your other training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd already been through one cycle with Gemini V. I knew generally the content of the preparation. The differences were those things that would be different between the flights. We were going to have a rendezvous, which Gemini V did not have. We were going to have an extravehicular backpack in the back. We had experiments that were different than the experiments on Gemini V. So we probably concentrated somewhat more on the things that were different.\\n\\n We still did practice the rendezvous and practiced the launches and practiced the entry steering and all those kinds of thing. You had to sort of fill the squares and make sure you had done enough of those that you felt confident in your ability and people that were watching you on the ground, and…grading how you did. You also felt confident that you were in control of your destiny."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well did you know Dave Scott at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had not known Dave well at all at Edwards, so I only got to know him when he came to Houston, but I liked working with Dave. He was very good at what he did. He was diligent and he was hard working. I felt confident in his ability to handle his part of the responsibilities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then the backup crew, Conrad and [Richard F.] Gordon. I was just wondering how—I've never quite understood this. How did NASA decide who was going to be in which position and which mission? It wasn’t for that particular mission they felt one of you had a better skill? It was just to rotate you all and give you equal experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:340", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.10002976936864, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I can't make too much of it. I think generally you try to keep going as long as you safely can and try to save the flight, the objectives, and try to put everything back together. At some point you just have to make the decision that, “I can't take the risk of pursuing my goal further, because I have to go back to the foundation instincts”, which is save your craft, save the folks, get back home, and be disappointed that you had to leave some of your goals behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the reaction in mission control when you reentered communications with them? Were they quickly able to adapt to the situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we didn't have much communication with mission control. You see, Murphy's Law says bad things always happen at worst possible times. In this case, we were in [orbits that] didn't go over any stations. We were sort of out of radio contact most of the time, and when we were [in contact], it was over the Rose Knot Victor or the Coastal Sentry Quebec, the ships that were at sea. They had limited ability to communicate back with mission control and transmit data to them. So our communication was just with the people on those ships, and they were trying as best they could to be helpful and identify things, but it was a real challenge for them, because there wasn't much to be gained. They could see that we had a problem, but as far as deciphering that problem, I think they were, in general, as much mystified as we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you started heading back towards Earth, did you start worrying about now you're going to have to land in some remote location, have to have a splashdown, or \"Are we going to be found?\" I would think I'd almost be more terrified with splashing down into the ocean and being unfound in a capsule there that might have a leak or something. Or you just keep trying to go over?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Being an old navy guy, I much preferred coming down in the water to coming down in Red China at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they found you okay. Was there a lot of lag time between your rescue and pickup?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:348", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.449824370322572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it predominantly is experience over training. Training certainly helps, but having been in flying machines for many years and faced a lot of difficulty, [pilots] become accustomed to being required to solve problems as they arise …, and particularly test pilots who get a higher percentage of things going wrong than normal pilots. And I'm not saying that we did it perfectly in every case; I'm sure we didn't. But the experience that we'd had in flying a variety of different kind of machines in difficult circumstances certainly enhances your ability to look at a situation, … analyze it and determine what your probable best course is and how much latitude you have to deviate from that best course. It's not an easy subject to describe adequately, but it seems to have worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a quite wonderful answer, and it's got me to think, the men of World War II whom I've interviewed, almost none of them, not even the regular army officers, nobody had ever been in anything like World War II before it came about, and they had to rely on their training, but you had experience and you did as you just said. So if you're leading a squad forward into an attack on a terrain that is different from any other, there's no experience you can draw on, on that. It's got to be training. But in your case—that's just quite a wonderful answer.\\n\\n And it also got me thinking of you're afraid you're going to pass out and you're reeling around in space and all the rest, made me think about that guy last Tuesday on that plane that crashed, that he sent down in Pennsylvania, and he just made this news, \"Screw this. I'm going to die anyway.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that's what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "\"I'm going to act on that basis.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There are a lot of scenarios you can conjure about that, but one of them is right, because they did decide to try to regain control of the aircraft, and there was some kind of a battle between the people on board and it didn't end up the way they wanted. Could have ended up worse, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those are real heroes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:350", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.499804855913968, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that's what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "\"I'm going to act on that basis.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There are a lot of scenarios you can conjure about that, but one of them is right, because they did decide to try to regain control of the aircraft, and there was some kind of a battle between the people on board and it didn't end up the way they wanted. Could have ended up worse, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those are real heroes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All this training, as exciting as it is to hear your career, there's a lot of sacrifice you're making constantly. You're living in far flung, in the desert, in California, in Houston as it's just starting to really grow, and difficulty—\n\nSome people would think it's a sacrifice to live in Houston.\n\nAnd raising children, and different hours."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:352", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.555338728793298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There are a lot of scenarios you can conjure about that, but one of them is right, because they did decide to try to regain control of the aircraft, and there was some kind of a battle between the people on board and it didn't end up the way they wanted. Could have ended up worse, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those are real heroes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All this training, as exciting as it is to hear your career, there's a lot of sacrifice you're making constantly. You're living in far flung, in the desert, in California, in Houston as it's just starting to really grow, and difficulty—\n\nSome people would think it's a sacrifice to live in Houston.\n\nAnd raising children, and different hours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just in August, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I would think anything's worth it just to see Earth, just to see Earth from that perspective for a pilot. That must have been something that's so awesome."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:354", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.39482080977033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All this training, as exciting as it is to hear your career, there's a lot of sacrifice you're making constantly. You're living in far flung, in the desert, in California, in Houston as it's just starting to really grow, and difficulty—\n\nSome people would think it's a sacrifice to live in Houston.\n\nAnd raising children, and different hours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just in August, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I would think anything's worth it just to see Earth, just to see Earth from that perspective for a pilot. That must have been something that's so awesome."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can see these pictures [points to book The Infinite Journey: Eyewitness Accounts of NASA and the Age of Space by William E. Burrows] and kind of get an idea, but you can take a picture of the Grand Canyon, too, and it's not the same as standing on the rim and looking down there. I think it's the same here. A picture does a great job, but it's not nearly like being there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can't imagine. [Laughter] At that moment, did a kind of calm come over you when you see Earth like that? Is it almost a religious experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:358", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.327578677522588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just in August, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I would think anything's worth it just to see Earth, just to see Earth from that perspective for a pilot. That must have been something that's so awesome."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can see these pictures [points to book The Infinite Journey: Eyewitness Accounts of NASA and the Age of Space by William E. Burrows] and kind of get an idea, but you can take a picture of the Grand Canyon, too, and it's not the same as standing on the rim and looking down there. I think it's the same here. A picture does a great job, but it's not nearly like being there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can't imagine. [Laughter] At that moment, did a kind of calm come over you when you see Earth like that? Is it almost a religious experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how to answer that. It probably affects different people in different ways. It is spectacular, and I think everyone is touched by it when they have the experience, but I don't know what goes on in other people's minds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's move into the early Apollo program. The Apollo program started off with a tragedy. Can you share with us how the AS-204, Apollo 1 fire affected you personally, if you have any memories of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:360", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.0306429750250965, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can see these pictures [points to book The Infinite Journey: Eyewitness Accounts of NASA and the Age of Space by William E. Burrows] and kind of get an idea, but you can take a picture of the Grand Canyon, too, and it's not the same as standing on the rim and looking down there. I think it's the same here. A picture does a great job, but it's not nearly like being there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can't imagine. [Laughter] At that moment, did a kind of calm come over you when you see Earth like that? Is it almost a religious experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how to answer that. It probably affects different people in different ways. It is spectacular, and I think everyone is touched by it when they have the experience, but I don't know what goes on in other people's minds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's move into the early Apollo program. The Apollo program started off with a tragedy. Can you share with us how the AS-204, Apollo 1 fire affected you personally, if you have any memories of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I remember it very well. I'd known Gus [Virgil I. Grissom] for a long time. Ed [Edward H.] White [II] and I bought some property together and split it. I built my house on one-half of it, and he built his house on the other. We were good friends, neighbors. Some very traumatic times. You know, I suppose you're much more likely to accept loss of a friend in flight, but it really hurt to lose them in a ground test. That was an indictment of ourselves. I mean, [it happened] because we didn't do the right thing somehow. That's doubly, doubly traumatic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in the investigation of what occurred?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:362", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.700714416694551, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how to answer that. It probably affects different people in different ways. It is spectacular, and I think everyone is touched by it when they have the experience, but I don't know what goes on in other people's minds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's move into the early Apollo program. The Apollo program started off with a tragedy. Can you share with us how the AS-204, Apollo 1 fire affected you personally, if you have any memories of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I remember it very well. I'd known Gus [Virgil I. Grissom] for a long time. Ed [Edward H.] White [II] and I bought some property together and split it. I built my house on one-half of it, and he built his house on the other. We were good friends, neighbors. Some very traumatic times. You know, I suppose you're much more likely to accept loss of a friend in flight, but it really hurt to lose them in a ground test. That was an indictment of ourselves. I mean, [it happened] because we didn't do the right thing somehow. That's doubly, doubly traumatic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in the investigation of what occurred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not. If I remember correctly, Frank Borman was involved in the leadership of that investigation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are some people that say that that tragedy in many ways started helping get a better sense of focus and discipline with NASA in exactly what it would take to make a lunar landing. Did you find a change around NASA in general, a more seriousness of intent, more triple-checking of everything before, taking nothing for granted?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:364", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.223016018549501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I remember it very well. I'd known Gus [Virgil I. Grissom] for a long time. Ed [Edward H.] White [II] and I bought some property together and split it. I built my house on one-half of it, and he built his house on the other. We were good friends, neighbors. Some very traumatic times. You know, I suppose you're much more likely to accept loss of a friend in flight, but it really hurt to lose them in a ground test. That was an indictment of ourselves. I mean, [it happened] because we didn't do the right thing somehow. That's doubly, doubly traumatic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in the investigation of what occurred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not. If I remember correctly, Frank Borman was involved in the leadership of that investigation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are some people that say that that tragedy in many ways started helping get a better sense of focus and discipline with NASA in exactly what it would take to make a lunar landing. Did you find a change around NASA in general, a more seriousness of intent, more triple-checking of everything before, taking nothing for granted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Partly that. Secondarily, and perhaps even more importantly, we were given the gift of time. We didn't want that gift, but we were given months and months to not only fix the spacecraft, but rethink all our previous decisions, plans, and strategies, and change a lot of things, hopefully for the better.\\n\\n Same thing happened after the Challenger [51-L] explosion. They got time and they fixed a lot of things that needed to be fixed and they never had time to do it before. So we get an added benefit, but we regret the price we had to pay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me interrupt for this second. Test pilots are losing friends often. And you must have lost some friends."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:366", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.8033511317216675, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not. If I remember correctly, Frank Borman was involved in the leadership of that investigation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are some people that say that that tragedy in many ways started helping get a better sense of focus and discipline with NASA in exactly what it would take to make a lunar landing. Did you find a change around NASA in general, a more seriousness of intent, more triple-checking of everything before, taking nothing for granted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Partly that. Secondarily, and perhaps even more importantly, we were given the gift of time. We didn't want that gift, but we were given months and months to not only fix the spacecraft, but rethink all our previous decisions, plans, and strategies, and change a lot of things, hopefully for the better.\\n\\n Same thing happened after the Challenger [51-L] explosion. They got time and they fixed a lot of things that needed to be fixed and they never had time to do it before. So we get an added benefit, but we regret the price we had to pay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me interrupt for this second. Test pilots are losing friends often. And you must have lost some friends."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many, many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You hit me hard with that, \"This was on the ground.\" Whew."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:368", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.448167924135186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Partly that. Secondarily, and perhaps even more importantly, we were given the gift of time. We didn't want that gift, but we were given months and months to not only fix the spacecraft, but rethink all our previous decisions, plans, and strategies, and change a lot of things, hopefully for the better.\\n\\n Same thing happened after the Challenger [51-L] explosion. They got time and they fixed a lot of things that needed to be fixed and they never had time to do it before. So we get an added benefit, but we regret the price we had to pay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me interrupt for this second. Test pilots are losing friends often. And you must have lost some friends."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many, many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You hit me hard with that, \"This was on the ground.\" Whew."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's not the way you want it to happen. Not that it's any less noble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course not."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:370", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.164631026816873, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many, many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You hit me hard with that, \"This was on the ground.\" Whew."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's not the way you want it to happen. Not that it's any less noble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just hurts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just wondering how the Apollo missions were different from the previous ones, the training for the Apollo program, especially since the possibility was that you're training for the Moon. How did the training change?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:372", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.960701140907637, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's not the way you want it to happen. Not that it's any less noble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just hurts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just wondering how the Apollo missions were different from the previous ones, the training for the Apollo program, especially since the possibility was that you're training for the Moon. How did the training change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the same, in that it was very goal-oriented. We tried to define it as narrowly as we [could], rather than as broadly as you would in research, because with the time constraints that we were facing then, the desire to get there as fast as we can, we were in a race and that was very evident to us all the time. You wanted to not be diverting your attention in any way to things that you really did not need to worry about. You wanted to focus on all the things that you knew you had to do and had to master. That was the principal difference as we went into the Apollo flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First, on the Apollo 1, on the tragedy, do you remember where you were when you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:374", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.511890156564041, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just hurts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just wondering how the Apollo missions were different from the previous ones, the training for the Apollo program, especially since the possibility was that you're training for the Moon. How did the training change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the same, in that it was very goal-oriented. We tried to define it as narrowly as we [could], rather than as broadly as you would in research, because with the time constraints that we were facing then, the desire to get there as fast as we can, we were in a race and that was very evident to us all the time. You wanted to not be diverting your attention in any way to things that you really did not need to worry about. You wanted to focus on all the things that you knew you had to do and had to master. That was the principal difference as we went into the Apollo flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First, on the Apollo 1, on the tragedy, do you remember where you were when you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in Washington [D.C.]. The President was signing the [Outer Space] Treaty with other nations that kept the Moon as the property of all people. It was a non-staking-a-claim treaty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were there at the White House?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:376", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.013211285071157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the same, in that it was very goal-oriented. We tried to define it as narrowly as we [could], rather than as broadly as you would in research, because with the time constraints that we were facing then, the desire to get there as fast as we can, we were in a race and that was very evident to us all the time. You wanted to not be diverting your attention in any way to things that you really did not need to worry about. You wanted to focus on all the things that you knew you had to do and had to master. That was the principal difference as we went into the Apollo flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First, on the Apollo 1, on the tragedy, do you remember where you were when you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in Washington [D.C.]. The President was signing the [Outer Space] Treaty with other nations that kept the Moon as the property of all people. It was a non-staking-a-claim treaty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were there at the White House?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at the White House. I think it was at the White House. I believe it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At a ceremony, and then suddenly the news came through to everybody there, or on your way out?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:378", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.570234761190174, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in Washington [D.C.]. The President was signing the [Outer Space] Treaty with other nations that kept the Moon as the property of all people. It was a non-staking-a-claim treaty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were there at the White House?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at the White House. I think it was at the White House. I believe it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At a ceremony, and then suddenly the news came through to everybody there, or on your way out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was after the ceremony, but I don't remember exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with a group of people representing NASA that had come up to be part of the ceremony, then you got the news, then you came back to Houston after you got the news?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:380", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.0780386235446375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at the White House. I think it was at the White House. I believe it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At a ceremony, and then suddenly the news came through to everybody there, or on your way out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was after the ceremony, but I don't remember exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with a group of people representing NASA that had come up to be part of the ceremony, then you got the news, then you came back to Houston after you got the news?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the next day. That's a bit hazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no, that's helpful to just put you in a place. How did you react when you first learned of NASA's decision to send Apollo 8 to the Moon? Do you recall the feelings of which one of these was going to go to the Moon? They were talking about sending Apollo 8 to the Moon."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:382", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.420042915049597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was after the ceremony, but I don't remember exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with a group of people representing NASA that had come up to be part of the ceremony, then you got the news, then you came back to Houston after you got the news?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the next day. That's a bit hazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no, that's helpful to just put you in a place. How did you react when you first learned of NASA's decision to send Apollo 8 to the Moon? Do you recall the feelings of which one of these was going to go to the Moon? They were talking about sending Apollo 8 to the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were very excited about it. We thought it was very bold, because we still had the Pogo problem on the Saturn and we'd had a couple of problems with [both] Saturn V launches, so to take the next one, and without those problems being demonstrated as solved, and put men, a crew on it, not just take it into orbit, to take it to the Moon, it seemed incredibly aggressive. But we were for it. We thought that was a wonderful opportunity. If we could make it work, why, it would make us a giant jump ahead. You remember it was kind of complex because we had to switch crews around and switch some spacecraft and change the order completely. It was kind of a complex process, but it showed a lot of courage on the part of NASA management to make that step."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the impetus for that decision to speed it up to that degree?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:384", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.800047683388441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the next day. That's a bit hazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no, that's helpful to just put you in a place. How did you react when you first learned of NASA's decision to send Apollo 8 to the Moon? Do you recall the feelings of which one of these was going to go to the Moon? They were talking about sending Apollo 8 to the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were very excited about it. We thought it was very bold, because we still had the Pogo problem on the Saturn and we'd had a couple of problems with [both] Saturn V launches, so to take the next one, and without those problems being demonstrated as solved, and put men, a crew on it, not just take it into orbit, to take it to the Moon, it seemed incredibly aggressive. But we were for it. We thought that was a wonderful opportunity. If we could make it work, why, it would make us a giant jump ahead. You remember it was kind of complex because we had to switch crews around and switch some spacecraft and change the order completely. It was kind of a complex process, but it showed a lot of courage on the part of NASA management to make that step."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the impetus for that decision to speed it up to that degree?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lunar module was falling behind, wasn't ready to fly, and they were saying, \"What can we do?\" We'd been in Earth orbit. What can we do without a lunar module? I don't know which minds first came up with the idea of, \"Well, why don't we think about a circumlunar flight with it and leave the lunar module behind.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What immediate new concerns would somebody like yourself have, let's just say that you're a pilot, a top-flight pilot would have about leaving Earth's immediate gravitational influence? What would frighten a pilot about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:388", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.691416893072149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lunar module was falling behind, wasn't ready to fly, and they were saying, \"What can we do?\" We'd been in Earth orbit. What can we do without a lunar module? I don't know which minds first came up with the idea of, \"Well, why don't we think about a circumlunar flight with it and leave the lunar module behind.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What immediate new concerns would somebody like yourself have, let's just say that you're a pilot, a top-flight pilot would have about leaving Earth's immediate gravitational influence? What would frighten a pilot about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I suppose that everyone would have concerns, but I don't know that they'd all be the same. People would worry about different things. I remember that one of the things that I was concerned with at the time was whether our navigation was sufficiently accurate, that we could, in fact, devise a trajectory that would get us around the Moon at the right distance without, say, hitting the Moon on the back side or something like that, and if we lost communication with Earth, for whatever reason, could we navigate by ourselves using celestial navigation. We thought we could, but these were undemonstrated skills."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s something to think about. [Laughter]\n\nYou've got me thinking about—you didn't have a very big window to look out of to do celestial navigation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA's probably the only organization in history that's been sold a one-power telescope. And that's what we used for doing the sextant shots and doing the star shots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you were finally—and where were you—I'm sorry sometimes I try to put things in locations personally. But what were your thoughts and where were you when you were chosen for the lunar landing mission for Apollo 11 when you first got the word?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:390", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.212685436746832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I suppose that everyone would have concerns, but I don't know that they'd all be the same. People would worry about different things. I remember that one of the things that I was concerned with at the time was whether our navigation was sufficiently accurate, that we could, in fact, devise a trajectory that would get us around the Moon at the right distance without, say, hitting the Moon on the back side or something like that, and if we lost communication with Earth, for whatever reason, could we navigate by ourselves using celestial navigation. We thought we could, but these were undemonstrated skills."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s something to think about. [Laughter]\n\nYou've got me thinking about—you didn't have a very big window to look out of to do celestial navigation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA's probably the only organization in history that's been sold a one-power telescope. And that's what we used for doing the sextant shots and doing the star shots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you were finally—and where were you—I'm sorry sometimes I try to put things in locations personally. But what were your thoughts and where were you when you were chosen for the lunar landing mission for Apollo 11 when you first got the word?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was during the flight of Apollo 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While it was up there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:393", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.680761596385369, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA's probably the only organization in history that's been sold a one-power telescope. And that's what we used for doing the sextant shots and doing the star shots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you were finally—and where were you—I'm sorry sometimes I try to put things in locations personally. But what were your thoughts and where were you when you were chosen for the lunar landing mission for Apollo 11 when you first got the word?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was during the flight of Apollo 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While it was up there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and during the flight of Apollo 8 I had three or four meetings with Deke Slayton about, first, would I take the third one down and then we had a lot of talks about who might be available and be right to be on that crew, that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you participated in a discussion of who."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.200846218205966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was during the flight of Apollo 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While it was up there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and during the flight of Apollo 8 I had three or four meetings with Deke Slayton about, first, would I take the third one down and then we had a lot of talks about who might be available and be right to be on that crew, that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you participated in a discussion of who."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was his decision, but he wanted your input."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.77871802022885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and during the flight of Apollo 8 I had three or four meetings with Deke Slayton about, first, would I take the third one down and then we had a lot of talks about who might be available and be right to be on that crew, that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you participated in a discussion of who."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was his decision, but he wanted your input."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was his decision, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And [Michael] Collins and [Edwin E. \"Buzz\"] Aldrin [Jr.] were two people you thought would be—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.420797800254278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was his decision, but he wanted your input."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was his decision, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And [Michael] Collins and [Edwin E. \"Buzz\"] Aldrin [Jr.] were two people you thought would be—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't have very many choices, but we had several other people that we could make available, so we spent a lot of time talking about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well—\n\nWait. What characteristics mattered? Level-headedness, quick-wittedness, eye-hand coordination?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.134219778060309, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was his decision, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And [Michael] Collins and [Edwin E. \"Buzz\"] Aldrin [Jr.] were two people you thought would be—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't have very many choices, but we had several other people that we could make available, so we spent a lot of time talking about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well—\n\nWait. What characteristics mattered? Level-headedness, quick-wittedness, eye-hand coordination?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "General knowledge? Experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:406", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.80767873834606, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "General knowledge? Experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Experience and what these people were particularly skilled at, had some knowledge or flight experience related to those jobs and so on. There were other considerations, like if we switch things around too much, you're going to get other people's nose out of joint because they stole somebody from somebody else's crew. I mean, there were a lot of typical kinds of things that you would concern yourself with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Personality?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, we talked about those things. Talked about everything that you might expect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been quite touched that Slayton asked you. It must have made you—\"My goodness, this is happening now.\" The excitement, the reality that this could be the big moment."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:408", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.67519859816229, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Experience and what these people were particularly skilled at, had some knowledge or flight experience related to those jobs and so on. There were other considerations, like if we switch things around too much, you're going to get other people's nose out of joint because they stole somebody from somebody else's crew. I mean, there were a lot of typical kinds of things that you would concern yourself with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Personality?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, we talked about those things. Talked about everything that you might expect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been quite touched that Slayton asked you. It must have made you—\"My goodness, this is happening now.\" The excitement, the reality that this could be the big moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was going to be a big moment, no matter what the flight objective was, but there wasn't any way you could know what it was going to be at that point in time, because the lunar module had not flown, hadn't even been in Earth orbit. We didn't know if we could communicate with two vehicles simultaneously at lunar distance. We didn't know whether the radar ranging would work. A lot of things we just didn't know at that point, and I think at that point in time I did not really expect that we'd get the chance to try a lunar landing on that flight. Too many things could go wrong on [Apollo] 8 or 9 or 10, whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your relationship? Did you know Collins and Aldrin fairly well before this assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:410", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.30577622018032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, we talked about those things. Talked about everything that you might expect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been quite touched that Slayton asked you. It must have made you—\"My goodness, this is happening now.\" The excitement, the reality that this could be the big moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was going to be a big moment, no matter what the flight objective was, but there wasn't any way you could know what it was going to be at that point in time, because the lunar module had not flown, hadn't even been in Earth orbit. We didn't know if we could communicate with two vehicles simultaneously at lunar distance. We didn't know whether the radar ranging would work. A lot of things we just didn't know at that point, and I think at that point in time I did not really expect that we'd get the chance to try a lunar landing on that flight. Too many things could go wrong on [Apollo] 8 or 9 or 10, whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your relationship? Did you know Collins and Aldrin fairly well before this assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd never worked on a crew with them [during Gemini], but part of the time I had in the early days of Apollo 8, Michael was first on [the prime crew of] that flight. And I had … worked with Buzz [on the Apollo 8 back-up crew]. But I'd known them pretty well [before that] because … we were still a pretty small group. We knew some of the people a lot better than others, because we worked with them a lot, spent a lot more hours in the middle of the night testing spacecraft. You get to know each other very well in those periods."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who ended up picking the names Eagle and Columbia for your spacecraft? What is the symbolism, do you feel?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:412", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.895306911311467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was going to be a big moment, no matter what the flight objective was, but there wasn't any way you could know what it was going to be at that point in time, because the lunar module had not flown, hadn't even been in Earth orbit. We didn't know if we could communicate with two vehicles simultaneously at lunar distance. We didn't know whether the radar ranging would work. A lot of things we just didn't know at that point, and I think at that point in time I did not really expect that we'd get the chance to try a lunar landing on that flight. Too many things could go wrong on [Apollo] 8 or 9 or 10, whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your relationship? Did you know Collins and Aldrin fairly well before this assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd never worked on a crew with them [during Gemini], but part of the time I had in the early days of Apollo 8, Michael was first on [the prime crew of] that flight. And I had … worked with Buzz [on the Apollo 8 back-up crew]. But I'd known them pretty well [before that] because … we were still a pretty small group. We knew some of the people a lot better than others, because we worked with them a lot, spent a lot more hours in the middle of the night testing spacecraft. You get to know each other very well in those periods."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who ended up picking the names Eagle and Columbia for your spacecraft? What is the symbolism, do you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The crew. We, as a crew, did that. We all participated. I think Mike probably was as convincing as anyone, as we deliberated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it one of your fun recreational things, making a list of what we should call them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:414", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.550341012568296, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd never worked on a crew with them [during Gemini], but part of the time I had in the early days of Apollo 8, Michael was first on [the prime crew of] that flight. And I had … worked with Buzz [on the Apollo 8 back-up crew]. But I'd known them pretty well [before that] because … we were still a pretty small group. We knew some of the people a lot better than others, because we worked with them a lot, spent a lot more hours in the middle of the night testing spacecraft. You get to know each other very well in those periods."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who ended up picking the names Eagle and Columbia for your spacecraft? What is the symbolism, do you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The crew. We, as a crew, did that. We all participated. I think Mike probably was as convincing as anyone, as we deliberated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it one of your fun recreational things, making a list of what we should call them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had lots of those little things which we considered to be non-operational decisions. They were kind of a pain to have to deal with all those, but we had to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a name that you preferred to the Eagle and the Columbia?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:416", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.27815668063144, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The crew. We, as a crew, did that. We all participated. I think Mike probably was as convincing as anyone, as we deliberated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it one of your fun recreational things, making a list of what we should call them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had lots of those little things which we considered to be non-operational decisions. They were kind of a pain to have to deal with all those, but we had to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a name that you preferred to the Eagle and the Columbia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I thought we came out with the right ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While we're on these naming, these are famous names, of course, it was [British Prime Minister] Winston Churchill who picked Overlord."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:418", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.086840756257155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had lots of those little things which we considered to be non-operational decisions. They were kind of a pain to have to deal with all those, but we had to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a name that you preferred to the Eagle and the Columbia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I thought we came out with the right ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While we're on these naming, these are famous names, of course, it was [British Prime Minister] Winston Churchill who picked Overlord."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how did they get Sword, Juno, Gold, Utah, and Omaha Beach? They drew them out of a hat."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:422", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.983754020070561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how did they get Sword, Juno, Gold, Utah, and Omaha Beach? They drew them out of a hat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Once the decision had been made on Apollo 11 to be the first one to attempt a lunar landing, how much emphasis did the mission planners and manager place on public-relation issues? How much of your time was consumed with \"How are we going to market this to the American public\" for all the reasons that you’d have?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:424", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.093060022300623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Once the decision had been made on Apollo 11 to be the first one to attempt a lunar landing, how much emphasis did the mission planners and manager place on public-relation issues? How much of your time was consumed with \"How are we going to market this to the American public\" for all the reasons that you’d have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think there was very much of that. There were some things that were done specifically for the benefit of giving the press the opportunity to either talk with us or take pictures of our activities in preparation, and there were other normal things that we were doing, where some access was granted. We probably resented that to some extent, but at the same time we recognized that it was not an unreasonable requirement, and we were certainly willing to accommodate those requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find the intense media focus disrupting, a disruptive force in any way or for your concentration or training?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:426", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 12.325622247000691, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Once the decision had been made on Apollo 11 to be the first one to attempt a lunar landing, how much emphasis did the mission planners and manager place on public-relation issues? How much of your time was consumed with \"How are we going to market this to the American public\" for all the reasons that you’d have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think there was very much of that. There were some things that were done specifically for the benefit of giving the press the opportunity to either talk with us or take pictures of our activities in preparation, and there were other normal things that we were doing, where some access was granted. We probably resented that to some extent, but at the same time we recognized that it was not an unreasonable requirement, and we were certainly willing to accommodate those requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find the intense media focus disrupting, a disruptive force in any way or for your concentration or training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it might have been a burden if we'd had time to notice it. [Laughter] But we were going full blast trying to be ready on time, and we just tried to shut anything out of our mind that wasn't focused on our principal objective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Describe your training with the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle [LLRV] and the Lunar Landing Training Vehicle [LLTV]. What was it like to try to fly it, and how valuable was that experience during your mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:444", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.779923477409813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you're right. We tried to be as focused as we could, work on the things we could do something about, and not worry about the things that were beyond our ability to change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can really capture yourself back, as the day clock's ticking for takeoff, would you every night, or most nights, just go out quietly and look at the Moon? I mean did it become something like “my goodness.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, we'd look at the books or we'd talk about strategies or \"What are we going to do if this happens?\" Or, \"Are you sure you know how to handle this?\" That's where we spent our time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of \"what if\" talk?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:446", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.755470530455348, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, we'd look at the books or we'd talk about strategies or \"What are we going to do if this happens?\" Or, \"Are you sure you know how to handle this?\" That's where we spent our time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of \"what if\" talk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, that's our business. You know, normally…a lot of unexpected things happen, and usually they're not the ones you practice, but the fact that you practiced a lot of different things puts you in the proper mindset to handle whatever it is that comes along, even if it isn't the one that you've experienced before. And I think that happened on a lot of the flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you develop a relationship of studying the Moon, the maps of the Moon as they were at the time, and learning everything you could about its makeup? Part of your reading, if you're not just looking at the Moon, you had to become an expert on the Moon? Or was it that important?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:448", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.61718947828372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, we'd look at the books or we'd talk about strategies or \"What are we going to do if this happens?\" Or, \"Are you sure you know how to handle this?\" That's where we spent our time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of \"what if\" talk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, that's our business. You know, normally…a lot of unexpected things happen, and usually they're not the ones you practice, but the fact that you practiced a lot of different things puts you in the proper mindset to handle whatever it is that comes along, even if it isn't the one that you've experienced before. And I think that happened on a lot of the flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you develop a relationship of studying the Moon, the maps of the Moon as they were at the time, and learning everything you could about its makeup? Part of your reading, if you're not just looking at the Moon, you had to become an expert on the Moon? Or was it that important?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, we'd been doing that part of it now for three or four years, working on just background information. In the last months before flight, we didn't do much of that except to look specifically at our landing areas and landmarks and things that we would actually be using or to which we would be referring during the progress of the flight. Those things we looked at, but the broader picture we didn't spend much time on…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious if you had any geologic—I guess I was getting to this on the question about the Moon itself, but did NASA require geological training for the Apollo 11 mission so you could notice things that you might see? Or was—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:464", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.276400444725438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're always concerned when any kind of alarm comes on, but it wasn't a serious concern because there wasn't anything obviously wrong. The vehicle was flying well, it was going down the trajectory we expected, no abnormalities in anything that we saw, other than the computer said, \"There's a problem, and it's not my fault.\"\\n\\n The people here on the ground were right on top of that, and of course, the computer continued in a contrary manner periodically all the way to the surface. But my own feeling was, as long as everything was going well and looked right, the engine was operating right, I had control, and we weren't getting into any unusual attitudes or things that looked like they were out of place, I would be in favor of continuing, no matter what the computer was complaining about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As much as you've talked about your experience and duty in propelling this mission forward, there's a real chance of death and failure here, and not just failure for you—and death for yourself and failure for the United States, the whole world watching this kind of mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you read lately that they released that Nixon had William Safire write a death letter about what would happen if you, the three astronauts died on this mission? Did you get a chance to see that document?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have heard that, but I have not seen it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just have to numb yourself from that kind of concern at the grandness of all this? Or is this with—I guess what I'm saying is, is Apollo 11 due to the, as Steve said, it was perhaps the most watched event in the history of, certainly the century, of the world. How does—you didn't treat it differently mentally at all, as you would something—one of your previous missions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:478", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.55851197180127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I thought about it after landing, and because we had a lot of other things to do, it was not something that I really concentrated on but just something that was kind of passing around subliminally or in the background. But it, you know, was a pretty simple statement, talking about stepping off something. Why, it wasn't a very complex thing. It was what it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As Doug said, everybody in the world knows the line, and everybody in the world are so grateful that you didn't say, \"That's one giant leap forward for the United States.\"\n\nI guess now you must realize how often that news clip of you descending, the television image. When you see that now, this many years later, that image, does it still affect you in any way, like, \"Wow, that's me back then?\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you crafted the line when you were coming down, were you—I mean, how much of a concern is that? I mean, you had a lot of things running—also you're hoping just to get that footprint put on the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think of it as being as important as others. I didn't want to be dumb, but it was contrived in a way, and I was guilty of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were on the Moon, there are not that many photographs or you on the Moon. There seem to be much more of Buzz Aldrin. That's because you were taking more of the photographs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:481", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.842791079779188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you crafted the line when you were coming down, were you—I mean, how much of a concern is that? I mean, you had a lot of things running—also you're hoping just to get that footprint put on the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think of it as being as important as others. I didn't want to be dumb, but it was contrived in a way, and I was guilty of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were on the Moon, there are not that many photographs or you on the Moon. There seem to be much more of Buzz Aldrin. That's because you were taking more of the photographs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He's a lot more photogenic than I am. [Laughter] I had the job of taking a lot of the pictures. That was part of my assigned responsibility. There was a short time in the middle where I transferred the camera to Buzz and he took some pictures, and we each had assigned objectives that we were supposed to catch. I think we probably caught a fair share of the things we were supposed to take pictures of, and not too many really bad shots. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm struck by—coming down here, there had to be a lot of wonderment, a lot of excitement as you took that last step onto the lunar surface, then you guys went to work. Insofar as there are critics, they said, \"Why did we send men to the Moon? We should have sent up machines to gather up things.\" I'm struck by something you said earlier when you were talking about geology. There is no computer in the world that can match the human eye and the human brain. The things that you saw you hadn't expected to see, that's worth it. I mean, no machine in the world can do that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:483", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.269767866421319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think of it as being as important as others. I didn't want to be dumb, but it was contrived in a way, and I was guilty of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were on the Moon, there are not that many photographs or you on the Moon. There seem to be much more of Buzz Aldrin. That's because you were taking more of the photographs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He's a lot more photogenic than I am. [Laughter] I had the job of taking a lot of the pictures. That was part of my assigned responsibility. There was a short time in the middle where I transferred the camera to Buzz and he took some pictures, and we each had assigned objectives that we were supposed to catch. I think we probably caught a fair share of the things we were supposed to take pictures of, and not too many really bad shots. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm struck by—coming down here, there had to be a lot of wonderment, a lot of excitement as you took that last step onto the lunar surface, then you guys went to work. Insofar as there are critics, they said, \"Why did we send men to the Moon? We should have sent up machines to gather up things.\" I'm struck by something you said earlier when you were talking about geology. There is no computer in the world that can match the human eye and the human brain. The things that you saw you hadn't expected to see, that's worth it. I mean, no machine in the world can do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Machines are getting better and better, but fortunately, there's still a place for us homo sapiens, some reason for us to continue to exist. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess we should mention—we jumped the story a little—but when the landing occurred, you had to pilot to make sure it didn't go into a crater. How damaging would that have been if you couldn't and you landed in—would that have been the end of the mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:506", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.377819771124979, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I recognize that I'm portrayed as staying out of the public eye, but from my perspective it doesn't seem that way, because I do so many things, I go so many places, I give so many talks, I write so many papers that, from my point of view, it seems like I don't know how I could do more. But I recognize that from another perspective, outside, I'm only able to accept less than 1 percent of all the requests that come in, so to them it seems like I'm not doing anything. But I can't change that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've seen a thing of the number of honorary doctorates you're offered and how few you take, and you really are very select in what you do. And you also seem to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very difficult to turn down Sister Frances Marie [Thrailkill, College of Mount St. Joseph, Cincinnati, Ohio]. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can turn Harvard [University, Cambridge, Massachusetts] down, but not Sister Frances Marie. [Laughter]\\n\\n Well, after that, did you play any role—well, after you left the astronaut corps, shortly after Apollo 11, you took a position as Associate Administrator of Aerospace."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Deputy Associate Administrator of Aeronautics [at NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C.]. I went back to aeronautics, from whence I came."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Was that something that you had premeditated all along, that, \"When I'm finished with this mission, I'd like to get back to doing that,\" or did it evolve after seeing a bit of the—you wanted to get back to your roots in a way?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:508", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.197577523472198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very difficult to turn down Sister Frances Marie [Thrailkill, College of Mount St. Joseph, Cincinnati, Ohio]. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can turn Harvard [University, Cambridge, Massachusetts] down, but not Sister Frances Marie. [Laughter]\\n\\n Well, after that, did you play any role—well, after you left the astronaut corps, shortly after Apollo 11, you took a position as Associate Administrator of Aerospace."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Deputy Associate Administrator of Aeronautics [at NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C.]. I went back to aeronautics, from whence I came."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Was that something that you had premeditated all along, that, \"When I'm finished with this mission, I'd like to get back to doing that,\" or did it evolve after seeing a bit of the—you wanted to get back to your roots in a way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. It didn't come that way. It wasn't anything I desired. It was the Administrator [asking] if I would help him in that area, and it was an area I felt comfortable with and knowledgeable about, and I was glad to have the experience, although I think everybody should have to go to Washington and spend a little time, just to see how difficult it is to run this country and do penance there.\\n\\n It's a frustrating place for me because so much coordination and greasing the skids goes on in Washington that by the time you've gotten around to everybody, the first guy's forgotten what the subject was. It's really hard to get things done there, and it's amazing to me that anybody can get things rolling from Washington, just because of the nature of the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me ask—we're both academics. That's where I've made my career. That's where Doug has made his career. You've been an academic. Tell us about that. How did you decide to go to [University of] Cincinnati and do you enjoy the teaching and the research, and what part of the academic life was what you expected it to be?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:516", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.976950957890865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And, you know, there's a lot of constituencies, all with different perspectives, and it's quite a challenge. Nevertheless, it's one of the strengths of our country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I love being a teacher, and I never would have done it any other way. But I remember once being with some colleagues, and they were complaining about, you know, we're not getting paid enough and they're overworking us, and so on, and I just exploded. I said, \"Listen,\"—this was at LSU [Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana]—\"you've got the state as your patron, and they're paying you to teach nine hours a week on exactly what you want to be doing, what you want to be teaching, and they're paying you to read exactly what you want to read, the literature of your field. And you're telling me that you're being browbeaten?\" They never could get the point of what I was saying.\n\nI was curious, did you play any role in planning at all after Apollo 11 in Skylab or the Shuttle, Space Station, or even future missions to Mars?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not very much. I was on the Apollo 13 Accident Board, and during that time period was when I was invited to go up to Washington. So then I was sort of overwhelmed by my new duties in that new role, which I enjoyed, but gave me little time to be concerned about the problems of the day at Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to see us go to Mars?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think it's possible?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:519", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.641056619878738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not very much. I was on the Apollo 13 Accident Board, and during that time period was when I was invited to go up to Washington. So then I was sort of overwhelmed by my new duties in that new role, which I enjoyed, but gave me little time to be concerned about the problems of the day at Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to see us go to Mars?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think it's possible?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think it's doable now, but very expensive and probably not within reasonable expectation of being able to be budgeted in the near future…. I guess the great hope is that we have a breakthrough someplace that would make that problem much less awesome than it appears at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or space out the time a bit. It's not the cold war anymore, and it's not a race. So you could space out the time frame and cut your annual cost quite a bit by doing that, I would think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:521", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.3789517998652645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think it's possible?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think it's doable now, but very expensive and probably not within reasonable expectation of being able to be budgeted in the near future…. I guess the great hope is that we have a breakthrough someplace that would make that problem much less awesome than it appears at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or space out the time a bit. It's not the cold war anymore, and it's not a race. So you could space out the time frame and cut your annual cost quite a bit by doing that, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still, it's still a big number—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still a big number, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:523", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.198835333183627, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think it's doable now, but very expensive and probably not within reasonable expectation of being able to be budgeted in the near future…. I guess the great hope is that we have a breakthrough someplace that would make that problem much less awesome than it appears at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or space out the time a bit. It's not the cold war anymore, and it's not a race. So you could space out the time frame and cut your annual cost quite a bit by doing that, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still, it's still a big number—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still a big number, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a big effort. It's got to be done."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:525", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.109817036870696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still, it's still a big number—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still a big number, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a big effort. It's got to be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you disappointed, Mr. Armstrong, after Apollo 11, after the halcyon days of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and now it's the early Nixon years and you're going to the Moon, that the Nixon administration started cutting NASA budgets and there's starting to be due to Vietnam and other concerns in society? After Apollo 11 and all that interest, it started becoming almost commonplace to walk on the Moon and for NASA to go, and the program kind of petered out and lost interest instead of continuing to ride the wave. What do you attribute that to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:527", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.010907818745219, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a big effort. It's got to be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you disappointed, Mr. Armstrong, after Apollo 11, after the halcyon days of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and now it's the early Nixon years and you're going to the Moon, that the Nixon administration started cutting NASA budgets and there's starting to be due to Vietnam and other concerns in society? After Apollo 11 and all that interest, it started becoming almost commonplace to walk on the Moon and for NASA to go, and the program kind of petered out and lost interest instead of continuing to ride the wave. What do you attribute that to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think it's predominantly the responsibility of the human character. We don't have a very long attention span, and needs and pressures vary from day to day, and we have a difficult time remembering a few months ago, or we have a difficult time looking very far into the future. We're very \"now\" oriented. I'm not surprised by that. I think we'll always be in space, but it will take us longer to do the new things than the advocates would like, and in some cases it will take external factors or forces which we can't control and can't anticipate that will cause things to happen or not happen. Nevertheless, looking back, we were really very privileged to live in that thin slice of history where we changed how man looks at himself and what he might become and where he might go. So I'm very thankful that we got to see that and be part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever hope to go back in space? Is that something that you'd like to do one more time after watching John Glenn go back up recently as a—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:529", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.012119798605799, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you disappointed, Mr. Armstrong, after Apollo 11, after the halcyon days of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and now it's the early Nixon years and you're going to the Moon, that the Nixon administration started cutting NASA budgets and there's starting to be due to Vietnam and other concerns in society? After Apollo 11 and all that interest, it started becoming almost commonplace to walk on the Moon and for NASA to go, and the program kind of petered out and lost interest instead of continuing to ride the wave. What do you attribute that to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think it's predominantly the responsibility of the human character. We don't have a very long attention span, and needs and pressures vary from day to day, and we have a difficult time remembering a few months ago, or we have a difficult time looking very far into the future. We're very \"now\" oriented. I'm not surprised by that. I think we'll always be in space, but it will take us longer to do the new things than the advocates would like, and in some cases it will take external factors or forces which we can't control and can't anticipate that will cause things to happen or not happen. Nevertheless, looking back, we were really very privileged to live in that thin slice of history where we changed how man looks at himself and what he might become and where he might go. So I'm very thankful that we got to see that and be part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever hope to go back in space? Is that something that you'd like to do one more time after watching John Glenn go back up recently as a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If they offered me command of a Mars mission, I'd jump at it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I read in one of the interviews that it's going to be two and a half years, was one of the astronauts'—and that the proper models to look at are not Apollo 11, but look at Lewis and Clark or Vasco da Gama."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:531", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.124577554006443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think it's predominantly the responsibility of the human character. We don't have a very long attention span, and needs and pressures vary from day to day, and we have a difficult time remembering a few months ago, or we have a difficult time looking very far into the future. We're very \"now\" oriented. I'm not surprised by that. I think we'll always be in space, but it will take us longer to do the new things than the advocates would like, and in some cases it will take external factors or forces which we can't control and can't anticipate that will cause things to happen or not happen. Nevertheless, looking back, we were really very privileged to live in that thin slice of history where we changed how man looks at himself and what he might become and where he might go. So I'm very thankful that we got to see that and be part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever hope to go back in space? Is that something that you'd like to do one more time after watching John Glenn go back up recently as a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If they offered me command of a Mars mission, I'd jump at it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I read in one of the interviews that it's going to be two and a half years, was one of the astronauts'—and that the proper models to look at are not Apollo 11, but look at Lewis and Clark or Vasco da Gama."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. That's awfully good advice. Yes. Yes. Exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're almost finished here, but I did want to touch on the presidential commission on the Challenger, and you were one of the commission members picked. How and when were you asked to participate on that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:539", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.686141676583513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know the inner workings of the Shuttle's systems, components. I knew the program in a macro sense—objectives, techniques, and general strategies. But I didn't find that to be an extreme disadvantage. We had the availability on the commission and reporting to the commission of very knowledgeable people from every aspect of the technical side of the business, and it didn't take the commission long to get up to speed and understand what the elements of the problem were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo program closed in 1972. Is it surprising that we haven't gone back to the Moon in so long, and did you ever imagine that it would take so long for people to return, for us to return?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, had you asked me that question thirty years ago, I probably would have said, no, I can't imagine that we'll make such a small number of steps over the next three decades. But looking back on it, I find it fairly understandable in the light of conflicting requirements for resources that the country has. It has a lot of other important challenges. I suspect that we'll get some chances.\\n\\n And there have been remarkable things done. If you look back and see where we've gone in the unmanned side, the probes that we've investigated the outer planets and comets, landed on an asteroid, just what opened up with the Hubble [Space Telescope] and others, the known volume of our environment by millions of light years, it's remarkable what has happened in the last thirty years, and I think we'll get some more chances."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Ohio do you have your own telescope? Do you ever look up and use your telescope in a recreational kind of way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[No, but I often enjoy looking at the night sky.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about how remarkable it was, this has been pretty remarkable, too [holding book Shuttle-Mir: The United States and Russia Share History’s Highest Stage by Clay Morgan]. That's a political development that would have been unpredictable in 1969."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:541", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.206824085092792, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, had you asked me that question thirty years ago, I probably would have said, no, I can't imagine that we'll make such a small number of steps over the next three decades. But looking back on it, I find it fairly understandable in the light of conflicting requirements for resources that the country has. It has a lot of other important challenges. I suspect that we'll get some chances.\\n\\n And there have been remarkable things done. If you look back and see where we've gone in the unmanned side, the probes that we've investigated the outer planets and comets, landed on an asteroid, just what opened up with the Hubble [Space Telescope] and others, the known volume of our environment by millions of light years, it's remarkable what has happened in the last thirty years, and I think we'll get some more chances."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Ohio do you have your own telescope? Do you ever look up and use your telescope in a recreational kind of way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[No, but I often enjoy looking at the night sky.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about how remarkable it was, this has been pretty remarkable, too [holding book Shuttle-Mir: The United States and Russia Share History’s Highest Stage by Clay Morgan]. That's a political development that would have been unpredictable in 1969."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That's quite true. That's quite true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in closing here, I just wanted to ask you, what do you see for the future of manned and unmanned space flight? Do you have any feelings of where it's headed? Maybe a better question is, where would you like to see manned and unmanned space flight head, to keep pushing the envelope?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:543", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.7853600945475465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[No, but I often enjoy looking at the night sky.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about how remarkable it was, this has been pretty remarkable, too [holding book Shuttle-Mir: The United States and Russia Share History’s Highest Stage by Clay Morgan]. That's a political development that would have been unpredictable in 1969."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That's quite true. That's quite true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in closing here, I just wanted to ask you, what do you see for the future of manned and unmanned space flight? Do you have any feelings of where it's headed? Maybe a better question is, where would you like to see manned and unmanned space flight head, to keep pushing the envelope?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's an increasing interest to go back to the Moon. There's been enough time now that there are a lot of persuasive reasons why we could benefit from a return visit.\\n\\n I personally hope that we'll go on to Mars. I think that will create enormous excitement and increased understanding of at least the near part of the solar system.\\n\\n But I can't predict what will happen. What happens is going to depend on a variety of forces and functions that can't be controlled. It's like herding cats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although you're an engineer and proud of it, do you ever use your imagination for reading science fiction books and trying to envision what it might be like 1,000 years from now or 500 years from now or 200, or do you try to always deal with what seems to be the next step in the practical world?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:545", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.317066771719496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That's quite true. That's quite true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in closing here, I just wanted to ask you, what do you see for the future of manned and unmanned space flight? Do you have any feelings of where it's headed? Maybe a better question is, where would you like to see manned and unmanned space flight head, to keep pushing the envelope?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's an increasing interest to go back to the Moon. There's been enough time now that there are a lot of persuasive reasons why we could benefit from a return visit.\\n\\n I personally hope that we'll go on to Mars. I think that will create enormous excitement and increased understanding of at least the near part of the solar system.\\n\\n But I can't predict what will happen. What happens is going to depend on a variety of forces and functions that can't be controlled. It's like herding cats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although you're an engineer and proud of it, do you ever use your imagination for reading science fiction books and trying to envision what it might be like 1,000 years from now or 500 years from now or 200, or do you try to always deal with what seems to be the next step in the practical world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm having a little trouble with next month right now. [Laughter] It's fun to look ahead, but candidly, I don't have the ability that some of those wonderful science fiction writers of past generations had. They turned out to be quite perceptive in many ways, and I wish I had a fraction of that ability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any of them in particular that you read, like Jules Verne, or somebody that you learned to admire, in retrospect, their writing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:547", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.796740857466107, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's an increasing interest to go back to the Moon. There's been enough time now that there are a lot of persuasive reasons why we could benefit from a return visit.\\n\\n I personally hope that we'll go on to Mars. I think that will create enormous excitement and increased understanding of at least the near part of the solar system.\\n\\n But I can't predict what will happen. What happens is going to depend on a variety of forces and functions that can't be controlled. It's like herding cats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although you're an engineer and proud of it, do you ever use your imagination for reading science fiction books and trying to envision what it might be like 1,000 years from now or 500 years from now or 200, or do you try to always deal with what seems to be the next step in the practical world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm having a little trouble with next month right now. [Laughter] It's fun to look ahead, but candidly, I don't have the ability that some of those wonderful science fiction writers of past generations had. They turned out to be quite perceptive in many ways, and I wish I had a fraction of that ability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any of them in particular that you read, like Jules Verne, or somebody that you learned to admire, in retrospect, their writing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I have a complete set of H. G. Wells, and in reading it now, I find I'm less enthusiastic about his writings than I was when I was a much younger man. But nevertheless, the creative ideas that they have put forth, that have caused a thousand … of other people to think in new ways, has been very important to the progress of civilization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever get—well, when these movies come out, like Star Wars or any sort of space films, are you attracted to watching them just to see, you know, how they're portraying space in the future? Do you take the time to, out of your curiosity just to see, look at those sort of things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:549", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1074898416290075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm having a little trouble with next month right now. [Laughter] It's fun to look ahead, but candidly, I don't have the ability that some of those wonderful science fiction writers of past generations had. They turned out to be quite perceptive in many ways, and I wish I had a fraction of that ability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any of them in particular that you read, like Jules Verne, or somebody that you learned to admire, in retrospect, their writing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I have a complete set of H. G. Wells, and in reading it now, I find I'm less enthusiastic about his writings than I was when I was a much younger man. But nevertheless, the creative ideas that they have put forth, that have caused a thousand … of other people to think in new ways, has been very important to the progress of civilization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever get—well, when these movies come out, like Star Wars or any sort of space films, are you attracted to watching them just to see, you know, how they're portraying space in the future? Do you take the time to, out of your curiosity just to see, look at those sort of things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought 2001, which was many decades ago now, was a very fine film, very authentic in terms of the way space looks and the way vehicles move and trajectories and so on. Many of the more recent space fiction movies have much less realism than 2001 did. They're more exciting, but not realistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Students ask me, \"Doc, there's nowhere left to discover. We've had Lewis and Clark, we've had [Ferdinand] Magellan and so on,\" and I say, \"Listen, the Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery. Ninety-seven percent of the ocean's floors have never been looked at. Where Bob [Robert D.] Ballard is right now is just the cutting edge of it, and Mars, and then who knows what after that? The Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery.\""}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:551", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.452766490698897, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I have a complete set of H. G. Wells, and in reading it now, I find I'm less enthusiastic about his writings than I was when I was a much younger man. But nevertheless, the creative ideas that they have put forth, that have caused a thousand … of other people to think in new ways, has been very important to the progress of civilization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever get—well, when these movies come out, like Star Wars or any sort of space films, are you attracted to watching them just to see, you know, how they're portraying space in the future? Do you take the time to, out of your curiosity just to see, look at those sort of things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought 2001, which was many decades ago now, was a very fine film, very authentic in terms of the way space looks and the way vehicles move and trajectories and so on. Many of the more recent space fiction movies have much less realism than 2001 did. They're more exciting, but not realistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Students ask me, \"Doc, there's nowhere left to discover. We've had Lewis and Clark, we've had [Ferdinand] Magellan and so on,\" and I say, \"Listen, the Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery. Ninety-seven percent of the ocean's floors have never been looked at. Where Bob [Robert D.] Ballard is right now is just the cutting edge of it, and Mars, and then who knows what after that? The Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you're right. I hope you're right. My expectation is that we're not going to run out of new stuff to look at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Ninety-six percent of the world's plants have never been described by a botanist."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:553", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8364072118876633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought 2001, which was many decades ago now, was a very fine film, very authentic in terms of the way space looks and the way vehicles move and trajectories and so on. Many of the more recent space fiction movies have much less realism than 2001 did. They're more exciting, but not realistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Students ask me, \"Doc, there's nowhere left to discover. We've had Lewis and Clark, we've had [Ferdinand] Magellan and so on,\" and I say, \"Listen, the Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery. Ninety-seven percent of the ocean's floors have never been looked at. Where Bob [Robert D.] Ballard is right now is just the cutting edge of it, and Mars, and then who knows what after that? The Twenty-First Century is going to be the great age of discovery.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you're right. I hope you're right. My expectation is that we're not going to run out of new stuff to look at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Ninety-six percent of the world's plants have never been described by a botanist."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's just amazing. You want a cure for Alzheimer's? It's growing out there, right behind us. We just haven't discovered it yet. [Laughter]\\n\\n Well, a little quick story on that. Thomas Jefferson was a great believer in for every disease of mankind, there's a cure growing here on Earth, we've just got to find it. So one of his instructions to Lewis was, \"Tell us what those Indians use for medicine.\" Lewis' mother was a folk doctor, herbs and so on. So Lewis, from Ft. Mandan [North Dakota], the first winter out, wrote back to Jefferson to report on what had been discovered so far. He said, \"When the Indians get a toothache, they chew the bark of the willow.\" The bark of the willow is aspirin. That's all in the world aspirin is, is the bark of the willow."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:555", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.262674679875182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you're right. I hope you're right. My expectation is that we're not going to run out of new stuff to look at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Ninety-six percent of the world's plants have never been described by a botanist."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's just amazing. You want a cure for Alzheimer's? It's growing out there, right behind us. We just haven't discovered it yet. [Laughter]\\n\\n Well, a little quick story on that. Thomas Jefferson was a great believer in for every disease of mankind, there's a cure growing here on Earth, we've just got to find it. So one of his instructions to Lewis was, \"Tell us what those Indians use for medicine.\" Lewis' mother was a folk doctor, herbs and so on. So Lewis, from Ft. Mandan [North Dakota], the first winter out, wrote back to Jefferson to report on what had been discovered so far. He said, \"When the Indians get a toothache, they chew the bark of the willow.\" The bark of the willow is aspirin. That's all in the world aspirin is, is the bark of the willow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So I know there's a plant out there that's going to cure Alzheimer's. I just don't know what the name of the plant is.\n\nI guess we should, I think, get ready to wrap this up. My last question is, you seem to have always gone through your life in your own kind of very methodical way, and you've had a lot of people that have been part of your team or that you've worked with. Has there ever been an individual who's really had a major effect on the way that you've decided to look at life and the way that you want to live your life and carry yourself, whether as a teacher or father or—?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:559", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9168823208335573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So I know there's a plant out there that's going to cure Alzheimer's. I just don't know what the name of the plant is.\n\nI guess we should, I think, get ready to wrap this up. My last question is, you seem to have always gone through your life in your own kind of very methodical way, and you've had a lot of people that have been part of your team or that you've worked with. Has there ever been an individual who's really had a major effect on the way that you've decided to look at life and the way that you want to live your life and carry yourself, whether as a teacher or father or—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's the summation of the influence of twenty or fifty people, each of which was significant, but not overpowering.\\n\\n Rebecca"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if you don't mind, before we end, one of the efforts of our team as a team is that usually, because we're all oral historians, at the end of our oral history, the person who is facilitating usually asks the rest of the team members [if they have questions], because sometimes some issues might come up that we didn't get a chance to [talk about] — would you object if I asked our space historians if they have a question or two for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay.\\n\\n Carol"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have a couple of questions, actually. Early on, you mentioned that during the space program you were 98 percent focused on your job. I was curious as to how much you were aware of situations in the country around you as you were going about your daily job—so much was going on in the ‘60s—and whether that impacted you at all."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:562", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2409803564817303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's the summation of the influence of twenty or fifty people, each of which was significant, but not overpowering.\\n\\n Rebecca"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if you don't mind, before we end, one of the efforts of our team as a team is that usually, because we're all oral historians, at the end of our oral history, the person who is facilitating usually asks the rest of the team members [if they have questions], because sometimes some issues might come up that we didn't get a chance to [talk about] — would you object if I asked our space historians if they have a question or two for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay.\\n\\n Carol"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have a couple of questions, actually. Early on, you mentioned that during the space program you were 98 percent focused on your job. I was curious as to how much you were aware of situations in the country around you as you were going about your daily job—so much was going on in the ‘60s—and whether that impacted you at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was certainly aware of the traumas that the country was experiencing at that time, and I believed that those problems were ones with which I was poorly equipped to contribute. They were outside my experience, outside my training, and I've always believed that however attractive it might be to get into areas that are interesting, you shouldn't do it if you're not qualified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other question that I wanted to follow up on was that you had mentioned that you were involved for a short time in the Apollo 13 investigation before you went to D.C."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:564", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.6010892849797003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay.\\n\\n Carol"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have a couple of questions, actually. Early on, you mentioned that during the space program you were 98 percent focused on your job. I was curious as to how much you were aware of situations in the country around you as you were going about your daily job—so much was going on in the ‘60s—and whether that impacted you at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was certainly aware of the traumas that the country was experiencing at that time, and I believed that those problems were ones with which I was poorly equipped to contribute. They were outside my experience, outside my training, and I've always believed that however attractive it might be to get into areas that are interesting, you shouldn't do it if you're not qualified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other question that I wanted to follow up on was that you had mentioned that you were involved for a short time in the Apollo 13 investigation before you went to D.C."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I wanted to follow up and ask, first, while the mission was going on, if you had any involvement during those efforts, and then what your specific role was in that investigation."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:566", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.890099205533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was certainly aware of the traumas that the country was experiencing at that time, and I believed that those problems were ones with which I was poorly equipped to contribute. They were outside my experience, outside my training, and I've always believed that however attractive it might be to get into areas that are interesting, you shouldn't do it if you're not qualified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other question that I wanted to follow up on was that you had mentioned that you were involved for a short time in the Apollo 13 investigation before you went to D.C."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I wanted to follow up and ask, first, while the mission was going on, if you had any involvement during those efforts, and then what your specific role was in that investigation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think everybody that was here was involved, not just crew members, but there were people all over the center that were involved in many ways. I was involved in simulator work and in several different things that we were trying to do, alignments and burns and things that were outside our experience base in the past. There were a lot of people doing that.\\n\\n I'm reminded of the Apollo 13 movie, which I thought was an exceptionally good movie. I thought in all the essential elements of that flight and its aftermath … were accurate. They did take literary license, and appropriately so, because there's no way an audience can follow as many people as we had working on the problem. You have to cut it down to some ten or fifteen people so that the audience can remember who's doing what. I thought that they did a good job of that. But each of those one individuals who was doing something in the movie was probably really fifteen people doing that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the accident, then, what was your involvement in the investigation as to what happened and what were some of those findings?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:568", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.10011022837, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I wanted to follow up and ask, first, while the mission was going on, if you had any involvement during those efforts, and then what your specific role was in that investigation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think everybody that was here was involved, not just crew members, but there were people all over the center that were involved in many ways. I was involved in simulator work and in several different things that we were trying to do, alignments and burns and things that were outside our experience base in the past. There were a lot of people doing that.\\n\\n I'm reminded of the Apollo 13 movie, which I thought was an exceptionally good movie. I thought in all the essential elements of that flight and its aftermath … were accurate. They did take literary license, and appropriately so, because there's no way an audience can follow as many people as we had working on the problem. You have to cut it down to some ten or fifteen people so that the audience can remember who's doing what. I thought that they did a good job of that. But each of those one individuals who was doing something in the movie was probably really fifteen people doing that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the accident, then, what was your involvement in the investigation as to what happened and what were some of those findings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, in the middle of that investigation I got transferred out to Washington and no longer participated in the day-to-day activities of that commission. But they had good people, and they did come up with the answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had quite a successful rest of the program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:570", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3334558093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think everybody that was here was involved, not just crew members, but there were people all over the center that were involved in many ways. I was involved in simulator work and in several different things that we were trying to do, alignments and burns and things that were outside our experience base in the past. There were a lot of people doing that.\\n\\n I'm reminded of the Apollo 13 movie, which I thought was an exceptionally good movie. I thought in all the essential elements of that flight and its aftermath … were accurate. They did take literary license, and appropriately so, because there's no way an audience can follow as many people as we had working on the problem. You have to cut it down to some ten or fifteen people so that the audience can remember who's doing what. I thought that they did a good job of that. But each of those one individuals who was doing something in the movie was probably really fifteen people doing that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the accident, then, what was your involvement in the investigation as to what happened and what were some of those findings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, in the middle of that investigation I got transferred out to Washington and no longer participated in the day-to-day activities of that commission. But they had good people, and they did come up with the answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had quite a successful rest of the program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was all the questions I had. Thank you.\\n\\n Kevin\n\nI had a couple, too. While we're talking about the investigation board, you gave us an overview of your involvement with the Challenger presidential commission, and one of the things that's been said about that is the Challenger investigation was very different than Apollo 1 because that was sort of an internal investigation—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:572", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.592728677, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, in the middle of that investigation I got transferred out to Washington and no longer participated in the day-to-day activities of that commission. But they had good people, and they did come up with the answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had quite a successful rest of the program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was all the questions I had. Thank you.\\n\\n Kevin\n\nI had a couple, too. While we're talking about the investigation board, you gave us an overview of your involvement with the Challenger presidential commission, and one of the things that's been said about that is the Challenger investigation was very different than Apollo 1 because that was sort of an internal investigation—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and they kept the politics out of it. A lot of the NASA guys we've talked to said that was really a better way to do it than the way Challenger was handled. Could you give us your perspective, as someone who was around for both of those events?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:574", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7696985300000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was all the questions I had. Thank you.\\n\\n Kevin\n\nI had a couple, too. While we're talking about the investigation board, you gave us an overview of your involvement with the Challenger presidential commission, and one of the things that's been said about that is the Challenger investigation was very different than Apollo 1 because that was sort of an internal investigation—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and they kept the politics out of it. A lot of the NASA guys we've talked to said that was really a better way to do it than the way Challenger was handled. Could you give us your perspective, as someone who was around for both of those events?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I agree with those gentlemen that it would have been preferable to do it internally, and I think it could have been done well. But the reality was that there was a national involvement. It was so striking. It was on the news. Everybody in the country saw that happen or at least saw the replay of it in the news that day, and the possibility of keeping it internal was remote. I'm happy that the commission took a diligent responsibility and acted, I think, in a responsible manner and did a credible job of spending a lot of money in finding out what happened, and it probably was well spent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during the course of the investigation, you probably had a good chance to see what NASA was like in the mid-1980s internally, how they were functioning. Can you compare that to the NASA you had left over a decade earlier, in the 1970s?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:583", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6973000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were spring loaded to the suspicion position at that point. We recognized that right after landing, where you had to do thermal conditioning surrounding the craft, that it hadn't seen before with all that hot surface underneath it and cold on top, that there were going to be all kinds of conceivable difficulties with plumbing and valves and pressure systems, relief valves and so on. So we were ready to leave if we had to, and we were listening carefully to their instructions. But I can't remember the details of what we were thinking at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at least concerned enough that, \"Yeah, we might actually have to abort\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We … were quite cognizant of the fact that we might have to do that, and we were prepared to do so, and we were going through all the procedures that would allow us to do so if we were required. But I think the problem was isolated in a reasonably short period of time, as I remember, and the pressure was off then to really start sweating out a takeoff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I said, I think the guys on the ground ended up a lot more nervous than you and Buzz did in the LM."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once you got out of the LM and you're going down the ladder, you're in this environment that requires you to have a space suit. I mean, you've got to have this protective garment on to keep some internal pressure and protect you from micrometeoroids and heat and the cold of space, all of that. How did actually functioning in the suit compare to how you were trained for, and what were some of the difficulties in operating on the Moon in this, learning to walk around, pick up rocks, all of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:585", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9970000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We … were quite cognizant of the fact that we might have to do that, and we were prepared to do so, and we were going through all the procedures that would allow us to do so if we were required. But I think the problem was isolated in a reasonably short period of time, as I remember, and the pressure was off then to really start sweating out a takeoff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I said, I think the guys on the ground ended up a lot more nervous than you and Buzz did in the LM."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once you got out of the LM and you're going down the ladder, you're in this environment that requires you to have a space suit. I mean, you've got to have this protective garment on to keep some internal pressure and protect you from micrometeoroids and heat and the cold of space, all of that. How did actually functioning in the suit compare to how you were trained for, and what were some of the difficulties in operating on the Moon in this, learning to walk around, pick up rocks, all of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was easier than expected. It was easier to walk. It was easier to maintain balance. We didn't have as much trouble with the temperatures inside the suit as we thought we might have. I can hardly say good enough things about the way the suit and the backpack, the so-called PLSS [portable life support system], operated, fully up to our expectations and better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had any input in the development of the suit, other than your usual training, that sort of thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:587", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.33, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once you got out of the LM and you're going down the ladder, you're in this environment that requires you to have a space suit. I mean, you've got to have this protective garment on to keep some internal pressure and protect you from micrometeoroids and heat and the cold of space, all of that. How did actually functioning in the suit compare to how you were trained for, and what were some of the difficulties in operating on the Moon in this, learning to walk around, pick up rocks, all of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was easier than expected. It was easier to walk. It was easier to maintain balance. We didn't have as much trouble with the temperatures inside the suit as we thought we might have. I can hardly say good enough things about the way the suit and the backpack, the so-called PLSS [portable life support system], operated, fully up to our expectations and better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had any input in the development of the suit, other than your usual training, that sort of thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not so much in the development of the suit, no, but we had participated in a lot of testing and spent many, many, many hours inside our suits before flight, in the chamber and under vacuum and temperature and all kinds of conditions. So we felt pretty comfortable and confident that the suits were going to work okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on all the flights, I don't think they had a single problem with any of the suits, at least that was mission-critical."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:589", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was easier than expected. It was easier to walk. It was easier to maintain balance. We didn't have as much trouble with the temperatures inside the suit as we thought we might have. I can hardly say good enough things about the way the suit and the backpack, the so-called PLSS [portable life support system], operated, fully up to our expectations and better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had any input in the development of the suit, other than your usual training, that sort of thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not so much in the development of the suit, no, but we had participated in a lot of testing and spent many, many, many hours inside our suits before flight, in the chamber and under vacuum and temperature and all kinds of conditions. So we felt pretty comfortable and confident that the suits were going to work okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on all the flights, I don't think they had a single problem with any of the suits, at least that was mission-critical."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not aware of any serious problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just one final question for me. As our colleagues here pointed out earlier, you seem to take great pride in being an engineer. So I was wondering, through your career as an astronaut, how much time did you find to actually be able to do engineering types of things, to get your hands or your mind around these engineering sorts of problems that you would be facing, either as a flight crew member or in some other technical assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:591", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not so much in the development of the suit, no, but we had participated in a lot of testing and spent many, many, many hours inside our suits before flight, in the chamber and under vacuum and temperature and all kinds of conditions. So we felt pretty comfortable and confident that the suits were going to work okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on all the flights, I don't think they had a single problem with any of the suits, at least that was mission-critical."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not aware of any serious problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just one final question for me. As our colleagues here pointed out earlier, you seem to take great pride in being an engineer. So I was wondering, through your career as an astronaut, how much time did you find to actually be able to do engineering types of things, to get your hands or your mind around these engineering sorts of problems that you would be facing, either as a flight crew member or in some other technical assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd say throughout my seventeen years at NACA and NASA, a very large percentage of my time was involved in real engineering work throughout that entire time period. I found that other former engineers who had become senior managers at NASA still occasionally tried to be engineers now and then. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess a follow up to that just before we go on. Did you have much work with Max Faget and everyone over in Engineering and Development Directorate?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00032:593", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not aware of any serious problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just one final question for me. As our colleagues here pointed out earlier, you seem to take great pride in being an engineer. So I was wondering, through your career as an astronaut, how much time did you find to actually be able to do engineering types of things, to get your hands or your mind around these engineering sorts of problems that you would be facing, either as a flight crew member or in some other technical assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd say throughout my seventeen years at NACA and NASA, a very large percentage of my time was involved in real engineering work throughout that entire time period. I found that other former engineers who had become senior managers at NASA still occasionally tried to be engineers now and then. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess a follow up to that just before we go on. Did you have much work with Max Faget and everyone over in Engineering and Development Directorate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the guys in the [astronaut] office had more work with that directorate than I did. My collateral responsibility usually was in the simulation and training area, so I spent more time with FCOD [Flight Crew Operations Division] than I did with Max's gang, but others spent a lot of time there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was all I had. Thank you.\\n\\n\n\nI have a couple. If I may ask you to reflect again on Gemini VIII, in history we find that Gemini VIII tends to be overshadowed by later things, the Gemini program as a whole even, but as we've talked to so many people, engineers and people that worked in mission control, I oftentimes ask them about the—they cite Gemini VIII as probably the closest call, overshadowing even Apollo 13.\\n\\n In light of what was accomplished in that mission, the docking, which was so important, and then the critical incident of the nearly fatal craft malfunction, yet the human element able to overcome that malfunction, what were the consequences of that for the Gemini program and later program and maybe the lessons learned from that important mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.514684844396086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Glad to be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. And we're just going to go ahead and get started with the questions the most, um, what I wanted to start with was what was your life like before joining the Peace Corps, which would have been before 1994?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was one of the members of the older people in our group. We were in Group III in Ukraine. I was 48 when I went. I had been working in a community college as a program director, and those programs were then decentralized and I became an English teacher and that was OK with me because I had always enjoyed reading and thinking about grammar and things like that. But I also wanted an international experience and I then had the marketable skills because I had to retrain as an English teacher. And I was divorced at that time and my youngest son was just leaving high school. And so it was an opportune time. I had this window of opportunity where my parents were still alive who could help with the kids if need be. And the kids were sort of on launched. So it seemed as if it were an opportunity not to be ignored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And one of the most common questions is why did you join the Peace Corps? I guess you had kind of said that you wanted an international experience. Can you elaborate a little more on why you decided to do the Peace Corps mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always wanted to do Peace Corps since I was little and JFK. Well, I wasn't so little when JFK came along, but he was an inspiration and I was itching to do it. But I got married instead. I had of other developmental tasks that took precedence. And by the time I was divorced and the kids were old enough, I just had another, not another. I had what I saw as this opportunity to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a specific country or project in mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 33.90520538266232, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was one of the members of the older people in our group. We were in Group III in Ukraine. I was 48 when I went. I had been working in a community college as a program director, and those programs were then decentralized and I became an English teacher and that was OK with me because I had always enjoyed reading and thinking about grammar and things like that. But I also wanted an international experience and I then had the marketable skills because I had to retrain as an English teacher. And I was divorced at that time and my youngest son was just leaving high school. And so it was an opportune time. I had this window of opportunity where my parents were still alive who could help with the kids if need be. And the kids were sort of on launched. So it seemed as if it were an opportunity not to be ignored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And one of the most common questions is why did you join the Peace Corps? I guess you had kind of said that you wanted an international experience. Can you elaborate a little more on why you decided to do the Peace Corps mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always wanted to do Peace Corps since I was little and JFK. Well, I wasn't so little when JFK came along, but he was an inspiration and I was itching to do it. But I got married instead. I had of other developmental tasks that took precedence. And by the time I was divorced and the kids were old enough, I just had another, not another. I had what I saw as this opportunity to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a specific country or project in mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, when I went you weren't able to really choose the country you wanted to. You could just give a general region. But I was good for anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the process like then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.45022820295813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always wanted to do Peace Corps since I was little and JFK. Well, I wasn't so little when JFK came along, but he was an inspiration and I was itching to do it. But I got married instead. I had of other developmental tasks that took precedence. And by the time I was divorced and the kids were old enough, I just had another, not another. I had what I saw as this opportunity to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a specific country or project in mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, when I went you weren't able to really choose the country you wanted to. You could just give a general region. But I was good for anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the process like then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For application process? It was huge. It was enormous. We didn't have Internet particularly. And so it was all paper. It was enormous amount of paperwork and letters of reference, which I'm sure you still have to have. But anyway, it just seemed enormous. And let me see, what else do you mean about the process? I was interviewed. I completed the initial application. I was interviewed and I had the medical exam. And then I was accepted and I thought I was going to Yemen and I said, oh, that's good, because, you know, there aren't any amoebas or whatever in Yemen. They'd be all arid, you know, and then there was a civil war and no one went to Yemen anymore. So the recruiter called me and asked me if I'd be interested in the former Soviet Union. And I said yes. So off I went to Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your friends and family think about your decision and how did you prepare?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 39.38914244773125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, when I went you weren't able to really choose the country you wanted to. You could just give a general region. But I was good for anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the process like then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For application process? It was huge. It was enormous. We didn't have Internet particularly. And so it was all paper. It was enormous amount of paperwork and letters of reference, which I'm sure you still have to have. But anyway, it just seemed enormous. And let me see, what else do you mean about the process? I was interviewed. I completed the initial application. I was interviewed and I had the medical exam. And then I was accepted and I thought I was going to Yemen and I said, oh, that's good, because, you know, there aren't any amoebas or whatever in Yemen. They'd be all arid, you know, and then there was a civil war and no one went to Yemen anymore. So the recruiter called me and asked me if I'd be interested in the former Soviet Union. And I said yes. So off I went to Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your friends and family think about your decision and how did you prepare?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were surprised. And my parents were worried. My friends were supportive, but they were sort of like, why are you doing this? Uh, yeah. My mother didn't want me to go. She thought I was going too far away, even though I as I said, I was 48 at that time. She was concerned about my safety. My dad was very supportive. My friends basically were my kids rolled their eyes and said, oh, do what you have to do, mom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you know, what was the training like when you got to the country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 32.84325531475977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because I know you came back three times. Can you talk a little bit about the three different experiences you had and the three tours you served in the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first, the classic two and a half years to 27 months were in eastern Ukraine over where the war is in the war zone. It's very adjacent to the war zone. Now, that was in eastern Ukraine where people spoke mainly Russian. So my training was in Ukrainian, but my site placement people spoke Russian. So I had my, you know, changed over. And I was at that institute where I did these other things. The second time I came back was in 2013 because I really wanted to see how the country had changed because it was so very destitute and down on its heels in 1994."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was several years later, that would have been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "‘96 to 2013. So quite a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifteen years or so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.825839238621974, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first, the classic two and a half years to 27 months were in eastern Ukraine over where the war is in the war zone. It's very adjacent to the war zone. Now, that was in eastern Ukraine where people spoke mainly Russian. So my training was in Ukrainian, but my site placement people spoke Russian. So I had my, you know, changed over. And I was at that institute where I did these other things. The second time I came back was in 2013 because I really wanted to see how the country had changed because it was so very destitute and down on its heels in 1994."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was several years later, that would have been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "‘96 to 2013. So quite a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifteen years or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So in that placement I was really lucky, but all of them, I was really lucky. The second placement I was in the northwest. Yeah. Part of the country about eighty miles from Poland in Lutsk and it's an old sort of you know, old European like city. Dnipropetrovsk was very Soviet, you know, very eastern Stalin buildings. People spoke Russian, very Russian leaning, ethnically Russian. In Lutsk, they were very spoke, very nationalistic, spoke Ukrainian, only did not want to speak Russian. I was in an institute there, too. So I did basically the same job that I did in Dnipropetrovsk. I was teaching English teachers English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it any different than your experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 29.806488042913305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "‘96 to 2013. So quite a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifteen years or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So in that placement I was really lucky, but all of them, I was really lucky. The second placement I was in the northwest. Yeah. Part of the country about eighty miles from Poland in Lutsk and it's an old sort of you know, old European like city. Dnipropetrovsk was very Soviet, you know, very eastern Stalin buildings. People spoke Russian, very Russian leaning, ethnically Russian. In Lutsk, they were very spoke, very nationalistic, spoke Ukrainian, only did not want to speak Russian. I was in an institute there, too. So I did basically the same job that I did in Dnipropetrovsk. I was teaching English teachers English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it any different than your experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, in terms of what I did? Not particularly, no. It was the same, the teachers rotated in, they stayed for three weeks, we did, you know, the same kinds of lessons, but the environment was so different being in western Ukraine and near Poland. Then I was supposed to stay an entire academic year there. I arrived in August and we were evacuated in February because of the political upheaval and the revolution. And I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you evacuated? I'm sorry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.6542175762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s an important language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s an important language for people who want to do business and who want to be members of the world, you know, and interact with people who are not Ukrainian, but bringing the country together without a common language I think is hard. And people say, oh, well, you have Canada, where you have the Québecois who want to speak French. But Canada has a history of speaking English and French. And Ukraine is fragile. It doesn't have, it only has like maybe thirty years of independence. It doesn't have a real strong basis as a country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back at your tour of service, what do you think were your main accomplishments? You talked a lot about different things you did. What were you what do you think your main accomplishments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I think I think that the English teachers in all three sites got, if they wanted to, some of them didn't had lots of opportunity to practice their speaking skills. Some were very embarrassed the way they spoke and they didn't want to talk very much. But others really sort of grabbed that, you know, ring and went with it. And I think they got a lot out of novel ways of teaching that they're used to a lecture type where you raise your hand like this, you know, so very formalized. Yeah. And rigid. Yeah. And so, uh, so they got they got the practice, the fluency, the proficiency, perhaps increased proficiency. They also got a taste of some what they would call nontraditional teaching strategies. The sort of inductive thinking, which they're not used to. They used to talk down. Tell me what it is, tell me the answer. What is the right answer? I said, well, there really isn't one. And they said there has to be a right answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Getting them to think for themselves."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.23138, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it doesn't really apply to me because I was older so that when I came back in 1996, I had had a leave of absence from my college and I just ran right back into teaching when I had been teaching before. So I just folded right back into, you know, what I had been doing before, which is teaching. I was teaching. Writing, right. Yeah. I did some other college level. I did other things at the college, but that was my main job was teaching."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think your experience working in the Ukraine changed your teaching in any way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit more empathetic for people? I certainly, this isn't anything that really affected my teaching, but I certainly learned the value of hospitality and just openness of just you're here, come in. You know, I don't have to look right. I don't have to meet a perfect meal. Just come. You know, the main thing was just being welcoming and a little bit more tolerant, I'd say. And then when I went back the other times, I had already retired. So I didn't have to come back to a job, per se."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One question they ask is, how have you, the three goals for the Peace Corps? I don't know if you're familiar with them. To provide technical assistance where requested, to promote better understanding of Americans, and to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. Um, can you talk maybe about the third one and how maybe you have done that and coming back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't know it's been anything very deliberate or pointed. But certainly my friends, all of them have said that they've learned a lot about Ukraine from me and an awareness. They send me articles now about especially now it's all in the news about Zelensky and Trump and everything. They're also aware of the country in a way that they weren't before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you've shed that light on them. Talking about the Ukrainian people. Have you through the years now, it's now 2019, and I guess the last time you were there you said was 2015?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.3682, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit more empathetic for people? I certainly, this isn't anything that really affected my teaching, but I certainly learned the value of hospitality and just openness of just you're here, come in. You know, I don't have to look right. I don't have to meet a perfect meal. Just come. You know, the main thing was just being welcoming and a little bit more tolerant, I'd say. And then when I went back the other times, I had already retired. So I didn't have to come back to a job, per se."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One question they ask is, how have you, the three goals for the Peace Corps? I don't know if you're familiar with them. To provide technical assistance where requested, to promote better understanding of Americans, and to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. Um, can you talk maybe about the third one and how maybe you have done that and coming back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't know it's been anything very deliberate or pointed. But certainly my friends, all of them have said that they've learned a lot about Ukraine from me and an awareness. They send me articles now about especially now it's all in the news about Zelensky and Trump and everything. They're also aware of the country in a way that they weren't before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you've shed that light on them. Talking about the Ukrainian people. Have you through the years now, it's now 2019, and I guess the last time you were there you said was 2015?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "2016."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So have you continued any kind of involvement now in there or do you keep in touch with people or have any other kind of continued involvement in the Ukraine?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't know it's been anything very deliberate or pointed. But certainly my friends, all of them have said that they've learned a lot about Ukraine from me and an awareness. They send me articles now about especially now it's all in the news about Zelensky and Trump and everything. They're also aware of the country in a way that they weren't before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you've shed that light on them. Talking about the Ukrainian people. Have you through the years now, it's now 2019, and I guess the last time you were there you said was 2015?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "2016."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So have you continued any kind of involvement now in there or do you keep in touch with people or have any other kind of continued involvement in the Ukraine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was just there this summer and went to visit my friends who were, who live in Lutsk. They we met in, uh, in the Lviv, which is another very western city in Ukraine. So they came down to leave to meet with me and my counterpart from Uzhhorod came to Lviv to meet with me also. Then I when I was in Kiev, I saw some of the Peace Corps staff people, one who was there in 1994, too. So that was pretty cool. Yes. Nice to see Jhana. She gave me these earrings. That's why I'm wearing them for her today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Aw, that’s nice. And who was she?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00144:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.219999999999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "2016."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So have you continued any kind of involvement now in there or do you keep in touch with people or have any other kind of continued involvement in the Ukraine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was just there this summer and went to visit my friends who were, who live in Lutsk. They we met in, uh, in the Lviv, which is another very western city in Ukraine. So they came down to leave to meet with me and my counterpart from Uzhhorod came to Lviv to meet with me also. Then I when I was in Kiev, I saw some of the Peace Corps staff people, one who was there in 1994, too. So that was pretty cool. Yes. Nice to see Jhana. She gave me these earrings. That's why I'm wearing them for her today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Aw, that’s nice. And who was she?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she was like a program director. And she still is. So she knows. She said right now she's head of the Response volunteers in Ukraine. But she was a program director at that point, help train the new volunteers, the newbies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've kept in touch with a lot of Ukrainian and Americans also working there still?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 19.79370656621723, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the million-dollar question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The million-dollar question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ever since I was little, I'd always wanted to join Peace Corps. I always had some affection for Africa as well, just based on stories my mom would read to me when I was little. And a literature, you know, Joseph Campbell's stories. And it just was always a very intriguing place for me. And then I was actually not kind of the quote unquote traditional volunteer. Actually, after undergrad, it took a year off, traveled around the States for a bit and then then did my master’s. And after getting my master’s was when I decided I really thought it was the best time for me to join Peace Corps. So I had actually got my master’s and it took about a year and a half for the application process. And I was offered the girls education and empowerment position and Burkina Faso, West Africa, and I gleefully accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. So where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have sort of two, two regions that I grew up in, Nebraska being one of them and then Tennessee being the other. So I went, I sort of grew up in Omaha, Nebraska, but I went to middle school and high school in Memphis, Tennessee or around Memphis. I never really felt as though like I fit in in Memphis. I really kind of missed the north. Memphis was very much the Bible Belt. I was raised Catholic and I largely felt out of sorts around all these Baptist kids who, you know, were very active in church. And Catholic, traditionally, it's very much show up to mass, be quiet for an hour. Church shouldn't really be fun, just listen to the priest. And so, yeah. And I even I studied abroad when I was getting my undergrad and that really kind of bit the travel, the travel bug really bit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what were your undergrad and grad degrees in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.868773538539791, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have sort of two, two regions that I grew up in, Nebraska being one of them and then Tennessee being the other. So I went, I sort of grew up in Omaha, Nebraska, but I went to middle school and high school in Memphis, Tennessee or around Memphis. I never really felt as though like I fit in in Memphis. I really kind of missed the north. Memphis was very much the Bible Belt. I was raised Catholic and I largely felt out of sorts around all these Baptist kids who, you know, were very active in church. And Catholic, traditionally, it's very much show up to mass, be quiet for an hour. Church shouldn't really be fun, just listen to the priest. And so, yeah. And I even I studied abroad when I was getting my undergrad and that really kind of bit the travel, the travel bug really bit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what were your undergrad and grad degrees in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Criminal justice, criminology and then French. I really knew that I wanted to actually work in French speaking West Africa for some reason. So yeah, so I did that. And then when I studied abroad, I realized I didn't know enough about the States. Because when you're abroad, everybody asks all these questions about the States. I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm not BFFs with Britney Spears, you know. So I kayaked in the Everglades for a bit, went to Chicago for a weekend, lived in Alaska for the summer. And that was when I felt that I could get my master’s and I'd had a little bit of fun. And so I got my master’s at Rutgers in Jersey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In French?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Newark, New Jersey, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but in French. Your master’s is in French?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.96530393171088, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Criminal justice, criminology and then French. I really knew that I wanted to actually work in French speaking West Africa for some reason. So yeah, so I did that. And then when I studied abroad, I realized I didn't know enough about the States. Because when you're abroad, everybody asks all these questions about the States. I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm not BFFs with Britney Spears, you know. So I kayaked in the Everglades for a bit, went to Chicago for a weekend, lived in Alaska for the summer. And that was when I felt that I could get my master’s and I'd had a little bit of fun. And so I got my master’s at Rutgers in Jersey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In French?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Newark, New Jersey, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but in French. Your master’s is in French?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's actually criminal justice, criminology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was French was the first degree?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.18367103523431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Newark, New Jersey, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but in French. Your master’s is in French?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's actually criminal justice, criminology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was French was the first degree?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, I had I had double degree in French and criminal justice, criminality, for all those French speaking criminals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did your family think about all of this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.426301150260345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's actually criminal justice, criminology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was French was the first degree?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, I had I had double degree in French and criminal justice, criminality, for all those French speaking criminals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did your family think about all of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were they thought I was crazy. They thought I was off the rails. But when I was getting my master’s, I studied wildlife crime. And so things like illegal logging in Indonesia. And based on the research that I conducted, when you are, you know, addressing criminal activity, you need community involvement, you need community buy-in. And I think that that's really what catalyzed the whole Peace Corps process into reality, rather than just the dream, because it's all about working with the community. So I really wanted that field experience. So yes, to prep for it, I actually moved to Alaska during the application process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To prep for what?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.80700127806705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, I had I had double degree in French and criminal justice, criminality, for all those French speaking criminals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did your family think about all of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were they thought I was crazy. They thought I was off the rails. But when I was getting my master’s, I studied wildlife crime. And so things like illegal logging in Indonesia. And based on the research that I conducted, when you are, you know, addressing criminal activity, you need community involvement, you need community buy-in. And I think that that's really what catalyzed the whole Peace Corps process into reality, rather than just the dream, because it's all about working with the community. So I really wanted that field experience. So yes, to prep for it, I actually moved to Alaska during the application process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To prep for what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For living in Africa, in a harsh environment with very little resources, I guess. Beyond that there aren't very many similarities. But it's interesting. I mean there are quite a few people, especially in rural Alaska, that live off the grid, don't really have running water. So it's not too dissimilar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you live off the grid in Alaska?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.34111253118561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were they thought I was crazy. They thought I was off the rails. But when I was getting my master’s, I studied wildlife crime. And so things like illegal logging in Indonesia. And based on the research that I conducted, when you are, you know, addressing criminal activity, you need community involvement, you need community buy-in. And I think that that's really what catalyzed the whole Peace Corps process into reality, rather than just the dream, because it's all about working with the community. So I really wanted that field experience. So yes, to prep for it, I actually moved to Alaska during the application process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To prep for what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For living in Africa, in a harsh environment with very little resources, I guess. Beyond that there aren't very many similarities. But it's interesting. I mean there are quite a few people, especially in rural Alaska, that live off the grid, don't really have running water. So it's not too dissimilar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you live off the grid in Alaska?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Parts of it, sort of. One house, it was a water catchment system where you can only use whatever water you had in that basin. And you so you relied on snowmelt or if you ran out of water you could order some. But so I was housesitting for somebody. And then I rented a cabin that was similar water structure, that had a composting toilet, so that was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were roughing it to a certain extent."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.934569479095122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For living in Africa, in a harsh environment with very little resources, I guess. Beyond that there aren't very many similarities. But it's interesting. I mean there are quite a few people, especially in rural Alaska, that live off the grid, don't really have running water. So it's not too dissimilar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you live off the grid in Alaska?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Parts of it, sort of. One house, it was a water catchment system where you can only use whatever water you had in that basin. And you so you relied on snowmelt or if you ran out of water you could order some. But so I was housesitting for somebody. And then I rented a cabin that was similar water structure, that had a composting toilet, so that was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were roughing it to a certain extent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sort of. My African self would disagree, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the time it seemed roughing it. So it took a year and a half to even be selected. Was that the standard time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.70507719899458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Parts of it, sort of. One house, it was a water catchment system where you can only use whatever water you had in that basin. And you so you relied on snowmelt or if you ran out of water you could order some. But so I was housesitting for somebody. And then I rented a cabin that was similar water structure, that had a composting toilet, so that was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were roughing it to a certain extent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sort of. My African self would disagree, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the time it seemed roughing it. So it took a year and a half to even be selected. Was that the standard time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it takes that long now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.227863554438422, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sort of. My African self would disagree, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the time it seemed roughing it. So it took a year and a half to even be selected. Was that the standard time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it takes that long now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. Well they, so two or three years ago, don't quote me. It was a few years ago Peace Corps really revamped the application process. So now it just takes a few months. So I don't know the new application process, but it's very different than just what I went through less than a decade ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it took that long. OK, so you got the letter and I should ask you, what did your friends say? Did they also think you were crazy? Or supportive?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.56526364745484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. Well they, so two or three years ago, don't quote me. It was a few years ago Peace Corps really revamped the application process. So now it just takes a few months. So I don't know the new application process, but it's very different than just what I went through less than a decade ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it took that long. OK, so you got the letter and I should ask you, what did your friends say? Did they also think you were crazy? Or supportive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. My friends in Alaska, quite a few. I kind of lived in a hippie town in Alaska and quite a few of my friends actually served. So they were a little bit more understanding. Yeah, it was a mixed bag I think. So yeah. But I think a lot of Peace Corps volunteers actually go back to Alaska sometimes because it's not as, you know, the onslaught of American culture isn't as great, I don't think, in parts of Alaska."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, quite a bit of the town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were former volunteers. That’s really interesting. It would be interesting to do a study. Would be really interesting. So where did you meet up with the other volunteers? I assume you all traveled together. I should ask, did you all travel together to go overseas?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.405848497172045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. My friends in Alaska, quite a few. I kind of lived in a hippie town in Alaska and quite a few of my friends actually served. So they were a little bit more understanding. Yeah, it was a mixed bag I think. So yeah. But I think a lot of Peace Corps volunteers actually go back to Alaska sometimes because it's not as, you know, the onslaught of American culture isn't as great, I don't think, in parts of Alaska."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, quite a bit of the town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were former volunteers. That’s really interesting. It would be interesting to do a study. Would be really interesting. So where did you meet up with the other volunteers? I assume you all traveled together. I should ask, did you all travel together to go overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this this is a good question. So there were four sectors. There was the girls education and empowerment. And then there was the primary education and basic education, which were the two education sectors. Primary education was your traditional teachers. And then the two other sectors were the small business and health. And so the primary education folks, they arrived in country a month, I think, before everybody else. And our group was a strange group in the sense that there were over 80 of us at the same time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "80 in girls education."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.450942774635603, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, quite a bit of the town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were former volunteers. That’s really interesting. It would be interesting to do a study. Would be really interesting. So where did you meet up with the other volunteers? I assume you all traveled together. I should ask, did you all travel together to go overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this this is a good question. So there were four sectors. There was the girls education and empowerment. And then there was the primary education and basic education, which were the two education sectors. Primary education was your traditional teachers. And then the two other sectors were the small business and health. And so the primary education folks, they arrived in country a month, I think, before everybody else. And our group was a strange group in the sense that there were over 80 of us at the same time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "80 in girls education."}, {"role": "user", "content": "80 in the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.38993641626178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this this is a good question. So there were four sectors. There was the girls education and empowerment. And then there was the primary education and basic education, which were the two education sectors. Primary education was your traditional teachers. And then the two other sectors were the small business and health. And so the primary education folks, they arrived in country a month, I think, before everybody else. And our group was a strange group in the sense that there were over 80 of us at the same time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "80 in girls education."}, {"role": "user", "content": "80 in the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. For girls education, I'm not sure. There was probably a little over a dozen of us. Or maybe 20 per sector, we could say, just for the ease of math. And so, and it's interesting because when I was in Burkina, the programs changed dramatically. They added an agriculture sector. They changed the education sector I think once or twice. And so there were about 60 of us that showed up to staging in Philadelphia. And so we were in Philadelphia for two days before we were sent to Burkina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then what happened in Philadelphia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.43326268473531, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "80 in the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. For girls education, I'm not sure. There was probably a little over a dozen of us. Or maybe 20 per sector, we could say, just for the ease of math. And so, and it's interesting because when I was in Burkina, the programs changed dramatically. They added an agriculture sector. They changed the education sector I think once or twice. And so there were about 60 of us that showed up to staging in Philadelphia. And so we were in Philadelphia for two days before we were sent to Burkina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then what happened in Philadelphia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did staging, quote unquote, where they did all last minute vaccinations. They did a few kind of, this is what you prep for. This is maybe a very, very brief introduction of this is going to be a very different culture. Be prepared. And then it was kind of your last meal in the States, you know. It wasn't too noteworthy to me, I don't think. Yeah. I mean, even the people that you hang out with is very different than what happened when you were in country. And there were so many of us. I mean, there were about 60 of us before we met up with the teachers that were already there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you showed up, I should know. But what is the capital of Burkina Faso?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 20.481402983039235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. For girls education, I'm not sure. There was probably a little over a dozen of us. Or maybe 20 per sector, we could say, just for the ease of math. And so, and it's interesting because when I was in Burkina, the programs changed dramatically. They added an agriculture sector. They changed the education sector I think once or twice. And so there were about 60 of us that showed up to staging in Philadelphia. And so we were in Philadelphia for two days before we were sent to Burkina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then what happened in Philadelphia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did staging, quote unquote, where they did all last minute vaccinations. They did a few kind of, this is what you prep for. This is maybe a very, very brief introduction of this is going to be a very different culture. Be prepared. And then it was kind of your last meal in the States, you know. It wasn't too noteworthy to me, I don't think. Yeah. I mean, even the people that you hang out with is very different than what happened when you were in country. And there were so many of us. I mean, there were about 60 of us before we met up with the teachers that were already there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you showed up, I should know. But what is the capital of Burkina Faso?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it's Ouagadougou. It's such a fun, fun word. Oh, all of us in Burkina would call it Ouaga. I guess the nickname or the easy reference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've showed up in Ouaga. And what happened then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.105476273493727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And so and you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So within a week you were out of those places?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they took us out. And I'm not, I can't remember, I don't think that we packed our stuff. I think Peace Corps staff were sent in to even pack up everything. And yeah, we didn't get to say goodbye or anything like that. And again, I mean, you know, it's really difficult because it's not like they were promised all this money or whatever. But, you know, they had to do preparations. They had to prepare this mosquito net for all of us. And they were given some money to feed us, etcetera. And so it was just, it was very much like but, you know, and they just pulled us out and drove us back to Ouaga. I think within the day they consolidated, yeah, there was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far away was this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was two to three hours on a paved road. So it wasn't too bad. Maybe longer, maybe four. But I could be wrong. So at least it was a paved road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get a chance to really interact with the family that you were going to stay with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.117195859437475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they took us out. And I'm not, I can't remember, I don't think that we packed our stuff. I think Peace Corps staff were sent in to even pack up everything. And yeah, we didn't get to say goodbye or anything like that. And again, I mean, you know, it's really difficult because it's not like they were promised all this money or whatever. But, you know, they had to do preparations. They had to prepare this mosquito net for all of us. And they were given some money to feed us, etcetera. And so it was just, it was very much like but, you know, and they just pulled us out and drove us back to Ouaga. I think within the day they consolidated, yeah, there was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far away was this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was two to three hours on a paved road. So it wasn't too bad. Maybe longer, maybe four. But I could be wrong. So at least it was a paved road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get a chance to really interact with the family that you were going to stay with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. And to be honest, I mean, especially the first few days, you're just so, there's such an onslaught of so many new things coming at you. And it's really hard to absorb everything. And then even at night, you would sleep in this hut that, you know, there was no window that I can remember. And it's under a mosquito net in over 100 degree heat. And I don't think I slept for the first few days just with the heat alone. So yeah, it was very hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you mentioned the heat twice. Was that the main impression you had when you got there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.241328732708304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was two to three hours on a paved road. So it wasn't too bad. Maybe longer, maybe four. But I could be wrong. So at least it was a paved road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get a chance to really interact with the family that you were going to stay with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. And to be honest, I mean, especially the first few days, you're just so, there's such an onslaught of so many new things coming at you. And it's really hard to absorb everything. And then even at night, you would sleep in this hut that, you know, there was no window that I can remember. And it's under a mosquito net in over 100 degree heat. And I don't think I slept for the first few days just with the heat alone. So yeah, it was very hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you mentioned the heat twice. Was that the main impression you had when you got there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very hot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other immediate impressions that you can remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.490365258564783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. And to be honest, I mean, especially the first few days, you're just so, there's such an onslaught of so many new things coming at you. And it's really hard to absorb everything. And then even at night, you would sleep in this hut that, you know, there was no window that I can remember. And it's under a mosquito net in over 100 degree heat. And I don't think I slept for the first few days just with the heat alone. So yeah, it was very hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you mentioned the heat twice. Was that the main impression you had when you got there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very hot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other immediate impressions that you can remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It smelled like burning trash when we first arrived because they burned the trash. And I remember that it was very dusty. And when we first got into the airport, actually, the power ran out. The power was out. So there was a whole luggage, you know, confusion as to, and yeah, it was hot. I can't, I don't really remember too much about the food just yet. I think it was still pretty good mix of, you know, American food thrown in. But definitely by the time we got to Ouahigouya, I don't know if I even ate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't memorable in any case."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.878183620627535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very hot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other immediate impressions that you can remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It smelled like burning trash when we first arrived because they burned the trash. And I remember that it was very dusty. And when we first got into the airport, actually, the power ran out. The power was out. So there was a whole luggage, you know, confusion as to, and yeah, it was hot. I can't, I don't really remember too much about the food just yet. I think it was still pretty good mix of, you know, American food thrown in. But definitely by the time we got to Ouahigouya, I don't know if I even ate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't memorable in any case."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right, well, and because and again, they just kind of yanked you out and it was hard to really make any memories. I remember the teachers being concerned about how they would run out of beer and why once all of us showed up, because that was the point that we met up with the teachers that were already there. So they were in, I think, a more unfortunate position because I think they'd already form bonds with their host families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were evacuated? You all were, the whole group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.420204022919483, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It smelled like burning trash when we first arrived because they burned the trash. And I remember that it was very dusty. And when we first got into the airport, actually, the power ran out. The power was out. So there was a whole luggage, you know, confusion as to, and yeah, it was hot. I can't, I don't really remember too much about the food just yet. I think it was still pretty good mix of, you know, American food thrown in. But definitely by the time we got to Ouahigouya, I don't know if I even ate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't memorable in any case."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right, well, and because and again, they just kind of yanked you out and it was hard to really make any memories. I remember the teachers being concerned about how they would run out of beer and why once all of us showed up, because that was the point that we met up with the teachers that were already there. So they were in, I think, a more unfortunate position because I think they'd already form bonds with their host families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were evacuated? You all were, the whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So all 80 of us now, rather than just like the 60 or so, there were 80. A little over 80. I think we started with 87. And after training it was 79 or something like that. But so, yes, we were in the capital, back in the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did they put you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.02244891435498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right, well, and because and again, they just kind of yanked you out and it was hard to really make any memories. I remember the teachers being concerned about how they would run out of beer and why once all of us showed up, because that was the point that we met up with the teachers that were already there. So they were in, I think, a more unfortunate position because I think they'd already form bonds with their host families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were evacuated? You all were, the whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So all 80 of us now, rather than just like the 60 or so, there were 80. A little over 80. I think we started with 87. And after training it was 79 or something like that. But so, yes, we were in the capital, back in the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did they put you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Dragon Hotel I think was what it was called then. And I think we went to this rec center for training. I mean, we still did the trainings as though nothing happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't have a home stay then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.247165460394426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So all 80 of us now, rather than just like the 60 or so, there were 80. A little over 80. I think we started with 87. And after training it was 79 or something like that. But so, yes, we were in the capital, back in the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did they put you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Dragon Hotel I think was what it was called then. And I think we went to this rec center for training. I mean, we still did the trainings as though nothing happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't have a home stay then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we stayed in a hotel. Yeah. But after two weeks, I think it was either two or three weeks, they relocated us to Koudougou, which is on the western side of the country, just in between another major city, Bobo, and Ouaga. And so Peace Corps, I think, really scrambled to find host families. And then they actually just doubled us up into the host families. And, yeah, we completed our training in Koudougou then. So we didn't finish and we didn't complete the training in Ouaga. So, yeah. So that was a bit difficult because the host families I think were chosen, I mean, it was very last minute and so there really wasn't too much of a vetting process. And even the host family that I and another volunteer training at the time had stayed in, I think one day they went through our stuff and like, stole a granola bar or something like that. And I think others had a few issues with host families. I mean, who knows if it was because, you know, it's kind of thrown together at the last minute, or you know, for whatever reason. I think it was hard for us having been like yanked from Ouahigouya and then to Koudougou."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your host family, what did they do? Were they professionals or what?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.056468395602778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think. So the host family dad’s name was Madi, and I think he was a government fonctionnaire of some sort. He was pretty well off just based on his house and the decoration. There was tiling in his house. So it wasn't just kind of a mud hut. And Christine and I, the trainee that I was with, she and I slept in a room. We both had our own bed with mosquito nets. And I think we actually had a fan as well. So, yeah, it was a bit more posh than what would have been in Ouahigouya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how big was this town that you were in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Koudougou would be considered not as developed as a regional capital, or maybe around a regional capital status. So there was power. I think Ouahigouya had some power, but not the houses I don't think had power. But in Koudougou, there was power, there was electricity. There was an Internet cafe, I think, or two. So slightly more developed, I think, than what Ouahigouya had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just talk a little bit about the training, the confusion. What was the language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is a good question. The language training was with mostly French because Burkina Faso is a former French colony. But beyond the French, there were several dozen languages. It was, um, and I think at that time they had to have known where we were going, because at one point when they put us into our local language groups, the language would depend on the region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you learned both French, I mean, you already knew French."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.507187106225308, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Koudougou would be considered not as developed as a regional capital, or maybe around a regional capital status. So there was power. I think Ouahigouya had some power, but not the houses I don't think had power. But in Koudougou, there was power, there was electricity. There was an Internet cafe, I think, or two. So slightly more developed, I think, than what Ouahigouya had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just talk a little bit about the training, the confusion. What was the language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is a good question. The language training was with mostly French because Burkina Faso is a former French colony. But beyond the French, there were several dozen languages. It was, um, and I think at that time they had to have known where we were going, because at one point when they put us into our local language groups, the language would depend on the region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you learned both French, I mean, you already knew French."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I was really lucky already having known French. So thankfully I wasn't as exhausted at the end of the day. That being said, speaking French is pretty. Speaking another language can be exhausting if you're not used to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then you all learned the local language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.785763451361452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is a good question. The language training was with mostly French because Burkina Faso is a former French colony. But beyond the French, there were several dozen languages. It was, um, and I think at that time they had to have known where we were going, because at one point when they put us into our local language groups, the language would depend on the region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you learned both French, I mean, you already knew French."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I was really lucky already having known French. So thankfully I wasn't as exhausted at the end of the day. That being said, speaking French is pretty. Speaking another language can be exhausting if you're not used to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then you all learned the local language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I learned Gourmantche and then Mooré was I think the more widely spoken language. It was the language where I think you could pretty much use it anywhere in Burkina. And Gourmantche was the language specifically to the region where I was placed, which was the east. And so I was out in Matiakoali, was the village name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll ask you how to spell all of this later on."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.206403834846059, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I was really lucky already having known French. So thankfully I wasn't as exhausted at the end of the day. That being said, speaking French is pretty. Speaking another language can be exhausting if you're not used to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then you all learned the local language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I learned Gourmantche and then Mooré was I think the more widely spoken language. It was the language where I think you could pretty much use it anywhere in Burkina. And Gourmantche was the language specifically to the region where I was placed, which was the east. And so I was out in Matiakoali, was the village name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll ask you how to spell all of this later on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just a little bit more on training. What was your cultural training? What was your preparation on the education side? Because you clearly didn't have an education background. What was that training like? Did it adequately prepare you for your job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.784893149828953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I learned Gourmantche and then Mooré was I think the more widely spoken language. It was the language where I think you could pretty much use it anywhere in Burkina. And Gourmantche was the language specifically to the region where I was placed, which was the east. And so I was out in Matiakoali, was the village name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll ask you how to spell all of this later on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just a little bit more on training. What was your cultural training? What was your preparation on the education side? Because you clearly didn't have an education background. What was that training like? Did it adequately prepare you for your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's complicated because. So girls education and empowerment, it was more of secondary education, which could be translated as increasing the number of girls who are enrolled in school or just kind of working with students, you know, doing mentor programs or extracurricular activities to support student life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were actually a teacher?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.538770166476613, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just a little bit more on training. What was your cultural training? What was your preparation on the education side? Because you clearly didn't have an education background. What was that training like? Did it adequately prepare you for your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's complicated because. So girls education and empowerment, it was more of secondary education, which could be translated as increasing the number of girls who are enrolled in school or just kind of working with students, you know, doing mentor programs or extracurricular activities to support student life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were actually a teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. So that's important only because then the village where I was was really confused. So you're not a teacher, so what are you doing? And really, you know, extracurricular activities, they exist, but it's not. But why would I? It was just very confusing for the local population to understand what I was doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it confusing for you as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.487522407196238, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's complicated because. So girls education and empowerment, it was more of secondary education, which could be translated as increasing the number of girls who are enrolled in school or just kind of working with students, you know, doing mentor programs or extracurricular activities to support student life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were actually a teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. So that's important only because then the village where I was was really confused. So you're not a teacher, so what are you doing? And really, you know, extracurricular activities, they exist, but it's not. But why would I? It was just very confusing for the local population to understand what I was doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it confusing for you as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did get to be confusing for reasons I can get into once we get into when I'm dropped off at site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, well, I mean, is there anything else you want to say about training? We don't have to stay in training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.20835823021804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. So that's important only because then the village where I was was really confused. So you're not a teacher, so what are you doing? And really, you know, extracurricular activities, they exist, but it's not. But why would I? It was just very confusing for the local population to understand what I was doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it confusing for you as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did get to be confusing for reasons I can get into once we get into when I'm dropped off at site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, well, I mean, is there anything else you want to say about training? We don't have to stay in training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I mean, yeah, I think the training was really good actually. The staff were amazing. Our security officer Congo, I'll never forget him. Haruna Congo. And he was amazing. He was very, he was always on top of it. He was very frank with people. And if he didn't know something, he would definitely look into it. He provided us with some really good information, you know, about the country. That was really useful. And I'm blanking on the name of the individual who led cultural training because he was amazing as well. I mean, we could ask him any sort of random, you know, Western question, and he really would take it in stride. I mean, I give this guy amazing points for, really, frankly, answering a lot of our questions, especially with the Burkinabe or Burkinabe culture, however you want to pronounce that that word. People pronounce it both ways. Burkinabe, Burkinabe. But, yeah, we had so many questions and the Burkinabe culture is, it's more on the soft spoken side. The nonconfrontational side and being vague, it's not very frank. And so whenever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not like Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.44493584392049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, definitely not like Americans. I mean, if you ask a question, you're not really sure if you would be given the right answer for whatever reason, right? I mean, there could be many reasons why you're given the answer you’re given. But I want to say his name was. I'm blanking on the name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doesn’t matter."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. And then my language trainer, Barema, he was great as well. He was really a lot of fun to work with. He taught me the Gourmantche and again, he would answer very many, so many questions I had about not only the language, but the culture in the east. And yeah. And he was a lot of fun. So that was. So training, it's exhausting. I was probably sick for most of it. But it went really well. Jean-Luc and Sylvie were Peace Corps medical officers or PCMOs. And they were great. They were very knowledgeable, and they were very patient."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "These are all people from Burkina Faso. The whole staff was local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The PCMOs were not. Sylvie was Canadian and Jean-Luc was actually Cameroonian. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so you finished training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.27215093768943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. And then my language trainer, Barema, he was great as well. He was really a lot of fun to work with. He taught me the Gourmantche and again, he would answer very many, so many questions I had about not only the language, but the culture in the east. And yeah. And he was a lot of fun. So that was. So training, it's exhausting. I was probably sick for most of it. But it went really well. Jean-Luc and Sylvie were Peace Corps medical officers or PCMOs. And they were great. They were very knowledgeable, and they were very patient."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "These are all people from Burkina Faso. The whole staff was local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The PCMOs were not. Sylvie was Canadian and Jean-Luc was actually Cameroonian. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so you finished training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then somebody drove you out or you went by yourself or how did you get to the town you were going to be in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.9690565974327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The PCMOs were not. Sylvie was Canadian and Jean-Luc was actually Cameroonian. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so you finished training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then somebody drove you out or you went by yourself or how did you get to the town you were going to be in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we swore in, in Ouaga I think, or maybe Koudougou. We uh, and then somebody from Peace Corps drove a batch of us to Fada, which would be the regional capital in the east, and dropped off one or two of the volunteers in around that area the first day. And then I remember I was the second day and, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the only one going to this town? Or were there others too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.298951774925223, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then somebody drove you out or you went by yourself or how did you get to the town you were going to be in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we swore in, in Ouaga I think, or maybe Koudougou. We uh, and then somebody from Peace Corps drove a batch of us to Fada, which would be the regional capital in the east, and dropped off one or two of the volunteers in around that area the first day. And then I remember I was the second day and, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the only one going to this town? Or were there others too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the only one. And I think I was the last one that was dropped off. So yeah, I was dropped off. Matiakoali was about 100 kilometers from Fada to the east and about 65 kilometers from the border of Niger. So, and that's not too terribly important. But it is interesting to note that Niger actually shut down while I was there because of the. There were two French individuals who were either, there were an attempted kidnapping and a shoot-out. It might have ended in a fatality, but I'm not sure. But for those reasons of safety and security, Niger was shut down. And then actually Mali was shut down in 2012 because of the coup. And we could not go to Cote d'Ivoire and the northern region was shut off. So we were pretty isolated, increasingly so as service went on. And actually as service went on, there were at least two civil unrest incidences which caused consolidation for us. And there was fear that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was the anti-Americanism or it was just violence? I shouldn't say just, but."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.776613083250249, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we swore in, in Ouaga I think, or maybe Koudougou. We uh, and then somebody from Peace Corps drove a batch of us to Fada, which would be the regional capital in the east, and dropped off one or two of the volunteers in around that area the first day. And then I remember I was the second day and, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the only one going to this town? Or were there others too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the only one. And I think I was the last one that was dropped off. So yeah, I was dropped off. Matiakoali was about 100 kilometers from Fada to the east and about 65 kilometers from the border of Niger. So, and that's not too terribly important. But it is interesting to note that Niger actually shut down while I was there because of the. There were two French individuals who were either, there were an attempted kidnapping and a shoot-out. It might have ended in a fatality, but I'm not sure. But for those reasons of safety and security, Niger was shut down. And then actually Mali was shut down in 2012 because of the coup. And we could not go to Cote d'Ivoire and the northern region was shut off. So we were pretty isolated, increasingly so as service went on. And actually as service went on, there were at least two civil unrest incidences which caused consolidation for us. And there was fear that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was the anti-Americanism or it was just violence? I shouldn't say just, but."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was the military wasn't getting paid. I mean, it's a pretty typical story. And so they started shooting up the capital and then some of the regional capitals as well were being, there were some unrest. And so we were consolidated twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is, I don't know the history. Why was this going on? Why weren't they paid? Was it corruption or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.418458981389165, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the only one. And I think I was the last one that was dropped off. So yeah, I was dropped off. Matiakoali was about 100 kilometers from Fada to the east and about 65 kilometers from the border of Niger. So, and that's not too terribly important. But it is interesting to note that Niger actually shut down while I was there because of the. There were two French individuals who were either, there were an attempted kidnapping and a shoot-out. It might have ended in a fatality, but I'm not sure. But for those reasons of safety and security, Niger was shut down. And then actually Mali was shut down in 2012 because of the coup. And we could not go to Cote d'Ivoire and the northern region was shut off. So we were pretty isolated, increasingly so as service went on. And actually as service went on, there were at least two civil unrest incidences which caused consolidation for us. And there was fear that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was the anti-Americanism or it was just violence? I shouldn't say just, but."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was the military wasn't getting paid. I mean, it's a pretty typical story. And so they started shooting up the capital and then some of the regional capitals as well were being, there were some unrest. And so we were consolidated twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is, I don't know the history. Why was this going on? Why weren't they paid? Was it corruption or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it was something along those lines."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't tribalism or anything like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.68717664598796, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was the military wasn't getting paid. I mean, it's a pretty typical story. And so they started shooting up the capital and then some of the regional capitals as well were being, there were some unrest. And so we were consolidated twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is, I don't know the history. Why was this going on? Why weren't they paid? Was it corruption or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it was something along those lines."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't tribalism or anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was, I think it was just as obvious as they weren't getting paid and due to reasons that, you know, the government really didn't pay anybody much of anything. I mean, even the teachers, they wouldn't get paid, I think, regularly. So, yeah. So safety and security was always an issue. And actually in Matiakoali out in the east, because of bandits and others, I would call Congo on a weekly basis. I was required to report to Peace Corps on a weekly basis just to say, hey, Congo, I'm still out here and still alive I guess. So yeah. So the only countries outside of Burkina that we could really even access were Ghana, Togo and Benin really. And I was in Mali when the coup happened, actually. But yeah, that was later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let's go back to this. You show up in this town. And who was your local contact? What was your living quarters like? How did you find all of this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.05437684192647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you become friends with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Their names were Ali. Ali and I can't remember his wife's name, but they were really nice. They were very welcoming. But I also tried not to rely on them too much. I really kind of wanted to just go off on my own. I'm really wanted to be kind of a very pretty independent entity there. I had found out that there had been quite a few other Peace Corps volunteers before me and I really didn't want to get into the habit of what they did. And a lot of times what they would do is just kind of choose a family and hang out with the family. I mean, this is obviously hearsay. I mean, this isn’t, be critical of or pass judgment on previous volunteers. But I just, yeah, I had a certain way of how I wanted to delineate who I was.\n\nAnd I was also strange in the sense that after it got dark, I really wouldn’t go out. I really didn't like to socialize with people. And part of that was because I actually I wear hearing aids, I'm hearing impaired. And so at night, especially when there's no light, it's very difficult to read lips or to hear because the Burkinabe speak very, very softly as well, which was very difficult for me. And so. But I mean, so that was hard and really you’re exhausted anyway. And I didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you cook your own meals or did somebody cook for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would cook my own meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did all the shopping by yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.536267706082059, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would cook my own meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did all the shopping by yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I loved the market. It was strange because in Matiakoali, as opposed to the rest of the country, the market was only every Friday and the rest of the country, the market was every three days. So yeah, it was interesting that it was only every five days. But I, especially by the second year, I got to know a lot of the women really well. So I would always seek them out and get whatever they were selling and trying to support them economically that way. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just before you get to your job, was it lonely staying in at night and not socializing with people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean it was. Some nights I would sit around and chat with the family. I wouldn't really, they would invite me to dinner but, I don't know, I just felt bad about taking other families’ dinners, and I don't know. But I would talk to Ali and every now and again, my counterpart would invite me over. So, I mean, there were some nights when I would get out. But no, I mean, you just read, I mean. And some nights, you are just so exhausted by the time the sun goes down, you’re like, all right, it’s bedtime, guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your job? So what did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.595853006757842, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I loved the market. It was strange because in Matiakoali, as opposed to the rest of the country, the market was only every Friday and the rest of the country, the market was every three days. So yeah, it was interesting that it was only every five days. But I, especially by the second year, I got to know a lot of the women really well. So I would always seek them out and get whatever they were selling and trying to support them economically that way. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just before you get to your job, was it lonely staying in at night and not socializing with people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean it was. Some nights I would sit around and chat with the family. I wouldn't really, they would invite me to dinner but, I don't know, I just felt bad about taking other families’ dinners, and I don't know. But I would talk to Ali and every now and again, my counterpart would invite me over. So, I mean, there were some nights when I would get out. But no, I mean, you just read, I mean. And some nights, you are just so exhausted by the time the sun goes down, you’re like, all right, it’s bedtime, guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your job? So what did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So my counterparts were Dumi, who was the principal or the head honcho of the school, like the primary school in Matiakoali. And then my mayor adjunct, which is Kondi. Kondi, I think it's Kondia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kondia was what?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.081300008343016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So my counterparts were Dumi, who was the principal or the head honcho of the school, like the primary school in Matiakoali. And then my mayor adjunct, which is Kondi. Kondi, I think it's Kondia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kondia was what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kondia was a mayor adjunct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mayor adjunct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were very typical guys in the sense that they had dreamt up what I would be doing but didn't really talk to anybody in the community about it. So one of the reasons why I was living in the courtyard with that family was because. I can’t remember the wife's name. But she, they wanted me to work with her to increase enrollment in girls, you know, and for girls to attend school in the nearby villages because a lot of times. So school costs money in Burkina and a lot of times the family can't really afford school. So they would just choose the male child to attend. And so often times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it costs money for primary as well as secondary?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.534777787047796, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kondia was a mayor adjunct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mayor adjunct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were very typical guys in the sense that they had dreamt up what I would be doing but didn't really talk to anybody in the community about it. So one of the reasons why I was living in the courtyard with that family was because. I can’t remember the wife's name. But she, they wanted me to work with her to increase enrollment in girls, you know, and for girls to attend school in the nearby villages because a lot of times. So school costs money in Burkina and a lot of times the family can't really afford school. So they would just choose the male child to attend. And so often times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it costs money for primary as well as secondary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so not just secondary."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.709602206231846, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so not just secondary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And then you also have to have uniforms, which was also an added expense. And so, so yeah, they wanted me to work with her. And so you know, like, all right, this sounds great. And so I had a conversation with her and she goes, I'm pregnant. I don't really want to work with you because I'm pregnant. And, you know, I really want to focus on my family. And I got that. I mean, that made sense. I mean, and obviously, I mean, the mayor adjunct and the principal or the superintendent did not talk to her about these preconceived plans that they had had. And then it was a little bit more sensitive because she really didn't want me to tell her boss that she didn't want to work with me because she was pregnant. And so there was like that added layer of complex, complexity.\n\nSo I tried to avoid those two as much as I could. And Kondia himself. I mean, he was very traditional Burkinabe in the sense that he had two wives and he himself favored his male child. And so that bothered me. And even one time, I run, and I was running in the bush one day and I had seen him and this other lady in the bush. And I think there was an exchange of money. And so, I mean, and corruption was pretty rampant. And, uh, and I think even when attending school, I don't think a lot of families really end up paying. But there are so many kids in the classroom, the teachers don't really call roll every day and say, oh no, you haven't paid, you need to leave. So it was very, you know, loose-goosey type of set up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many kids are in a class?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fifty?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifty or so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.56622467359094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And then you also have to have uniforms, which was also an added expense. And so, so yeah, they wanted me to work with her. And so you know, like, all right, this sounds great. And so I had a conversation with her and she goes, I'm pregnant. I don't really want to work with you because I'm pregnant. And, you know, I really want to focus on my family. And I got that. I mean, that made sense. I mean, and obviously, I mean, the mayor adjunct and the principal or the superintendent did not talk to her about these preconceived plans that they had had. And then it was a little bit more sensitive because she really didn't want me to tell her boss that she didn't want to work with me because she was pregnant. And so there was like that added layer of complex, complexity.\n\nSo I tried to avoid those two as much as I could. And Kondia himself. I mean, he was very traditional Burkinabe in the sense that he had two wives and he himself favored his male child. And so that bothered me. And even one time, I run, and I was running in the bush one day and I had seen him and this other lady in the bush. And I think there was an exchange of money. And so, I mean, and corruption was pretty rampant. And, uh, and I think even when attending school, I don't think a lot of families really end up paying. But there are so many kids in the classroom, the teachers don't really call roll every day and say, oh no, you haven't paid, you need to leave. So it was very, you know, loose-goosey type of set up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many kids are in a class?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fifty?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifty or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it's a sizable classroom and so yes, so I just kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you do to get kids to come to school? I mean, with whom did you end up working?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.406916303989934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fifty?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifty or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it's a sizable classroom and so yes, so I just kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you do to get kids to come to school? I mean, with whom did you end up working?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I actually didn't. I worked a little bit with the school, but not related to girls’ education and empowerment. I worked with the high school a little bit to do some extracurricular activities. We did a day where we celebrated high grades. We had a traditional dress day. I painted, you know, the HIV AIDS mural. Played some sports. So I would hang out with the students a bit. And in the primary school, I actually did like a picture pen pal correspondence because they're so young and between English and French, that really wouldn't have worked. But I had my niece's class would draw pictures and send them over, and then one of the primary school classes would draw pictures and send them over. So that was interesting. But for the most part, I actually worked with the women's community garden. Yeah. And planted, I worked with them a bit just to have a routine and habit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you start that or did it exist?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.598552188295328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. And I helped with some reading camps. There was Friends of African Villages. Friends of African Village Libraries, FAVL. And they were mostly out in the West and they would have reading camps. And I was hoping that some of these activities would kind of give me some ideas or help me do something. And in the village where I lived, I was really actually hoping to get a FAVL branch out in Matiakoali. But there was something about the east and the west where in the west there seemed to be quite a few more resources. In the east, there was very much a dearth of resources.\n\nAnd it's interesting because on the bike tour, you know, the volunteers would go around introducing themselves, especially if there were VIP individuals attending. And whenever I would mention that I lived in Matiakoali, everybody was like, Matiakoali, you know, wow, that's out there! And so even among the fonctionnaires, which are the government officials that they get stationed around the country, I think it was a pretty hard post for whatever. I don't know if it was the bandits or the security situation or the language. I never could quite discern what was so different about the east versus the west.\n\nSo I raised five thousand dollars to support kind of a local library. The Tentwa is the nonprofit that Ali had worked for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tentwa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Tentwa. It's Gourmantche. I don't know what it means but. So I had conversations with the teachers and government officials and children, tried to understand kind of which books would be the best. And I even bought, Tentwa made some books in Gourmantche, so I bought some Gourmantche books."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you raised five thousand dollars for a library."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was there a library to start out with or were you creating a library?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.88728020921703, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Tentwa. It's Gourmantche. I don't know what it means but. So I had conversations with the teachers and government officials and children, tried to understand kind of which books would be the best. And I even bought, Tentwa made some books in Gourmantche, so I bought some Gourmantche books."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you raised five thousand dollars for a library."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was there a library to start out with or were you creating a library?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was reinvigorating the library. I think there had been a library that kind of fell into disrepair for lack of a better word. There was just a lot of dust in this room and there were some books. But, yeah, I don't know, I just. There was some sort of infrastructure already there. So I thought, well, maybe if I got relevant books. Because the books in the library were very much standard French books. It really wasn't locally appropriate. And so, you know, I talked to the teachers to understand what the curriculum was, what the required reading was. And even for primary school, there are books, you know, that help you, like the workbooks that the kids need. And so I tried to get something that was more locally relevant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You raised the money in the States among friends?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.319200232463366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was there a library to start out with or were you creating a library?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was reinvigorating the library. I think there had been a library that kind of fell into disrepair for lack of a better word. There was just a lot of dust in this room and there were some books. But, yeah, I don't know, I just. There was some sort of infrastructure already there. So I thought, well, maybe if I got relevant books. Because the books in the library were very much standard French books. It really wasn't locally appropriate. And so, you know, I talked to the teachers to understand what the curriculum was, what the required reading was. And even for primary school, there are books, you know, that help you, like the workbooks that the kids need. And so I tried to get something that was more locally relevant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You raised the money in the States among friends?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you bought the books in Ouagadougou or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.910222480514852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was reinvigorating the library. I think there had been a library that kind of fell into disrepair for lack of a better word. There was just a lot of dust in this room and there were some books. But, yeah, I don't know, I just. There was some sort of infrastructure already there. So I thought, well, maybe if I got relevant books. Because the books in the library were very much standard French books. It really wasn't locally appropriate. And so, you know, I talked to the teachers to understand what the curriculum was, what the required reading was. And even for primary school, there are books, you know, that help you, like the workbooks that the kids need. And so I tried to get something that was more locally relevant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You raised the money in the States among friends?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you bought the books in Ouagadougou or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was. I was negotiating so hard. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what do you think your, I don't want to say best, your biggest accomplishment was in this town? Was it the library? Was it something else?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.678024978349836, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you bought the books in Ouagadougou or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was. I was negotiating so hard. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what do you think your, I don't want to say best, your biggest accomplishment was in this town? Was it the library? Was it something else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I would have to say really the relationships I formed with the women at the community garden. I have so much respect for them and what they do on a daily basis. I mean, you know, I’d run marathons before. I was very athletic growing up. And so I thought, oh, you know, getting water out of a well is a piece of cake. But I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s hard work."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.42002775372204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was. I was negotiating so hard. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what do you think your, I don't want to say best, your biggest accomplishment was in this town? Was it the library? Was it something else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I would have to say really the relationships I formed with the women at the community garden. I have so much respect for them and what they do on a daily basis. I mean, you know, I’d run marathons before. I was very athletic growing up. And so I thought, oh, you know, getting water out of a well is a piece of cake. But I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s hard work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, after two hours of that, I was ready to go take my morning nap. And oftentimes you see the women, you know, they're very much just taking their time chatting. And it's because the work is never done. I mean, you can't rush through something because you have ten other activities to do, whether that be getting the water, cooking the meal, doing the laundry, doing the dishes, cooking the meal. I mean, most of the meals were cooked over like a controlled open fire, you know, in this big cauldron. And the local staple was mostly corn, sorghum. And they would form that into like a mashed potato-like food that you would eat with your fingers. And there would be some sauces, like a peanut sauce or an okra sauce or a leek sauce. So the everything was so labor intensive. And so that was a very humbling experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the men take care of the animals, is that it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.33748663062008, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Or they sit under the tree. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I did drink the local. I wasn’t one of the volunteers who didn't indulge in alcohol at site. I did drink the local alcohol, which was interesting, because it was cooked for three days and then it was still kind of fermenting. And so then when you drank it, it would get stronger as it's still fermenting in your stomach. And so it was interesting. But so I would go to. It was called dolo, so I would go to a local dolo bar. I mean, the women kind of make you drink at 7:00 in the morning after working at the. They would be like, here Mondy, drink this. I’m like, alright. I mean, some days, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So women drank as well as men."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah, it was Christian and Muslim. So yeah, it was a mixture of religions. But everybody wins because then when everybody has a party, everybody's part of it. It was very much like, it's Christmas. Yay, everybody gets to eat everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were no tensions between the Muslims and the Christians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "None. Yeah, yeah. If anything, everybody just loved it if there was another excuse to party and I don't blame them. I mean, the holidays are a lot of fun. Yeah. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the relationship, you know, any changes that the women made because of things you talked to them about?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.1527629229112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah, it was Christian and Muslim. So yeah, it was a mixture of religions. But everybody wins because then when everybody has a party, everybody's part of it. It was very much like, it's Christmas. Yay, everybody gets to eat everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were no tensions between the Muslims and the Christians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "None. Yeah, yeah. If anything, everybody just loved it if there was another excuse to party and I don't blame them. I mean, the holidays are a lot of fun. Yeah. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the relationship, you know, any changes that the women made because of things you talked to them about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You learned, did you learn more from them than they learned from you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.7194603986558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You learned, did you learn more from them than they learned from you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, pretty much. Exactly. And yeah. And you really, you just kind of learn patience. I wish I had learned a little bit more Gourmantche, then I think I would have had better conversations. Because most of the women, it was very difficult to communicate with them. And it was interesting because one time one of the women, Nahini, she had taken me to a friend's place and we were just kind of sitting there and this guy's like chatting. And then this female is chatting and, you know, half an hour later, I'm like, what is going on? I mean, do I really need to be here? And Nahini’s like, yeah, yeah. No, he beats his wife. So we're trying to use you as like a reason to convince him not to beat his wife or something, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, things like that. Yeah, it was always a learning experience. I mean, even in the rare instance that I would go to the dolo bar. Especially with my women friends. One of the guys asked me, he goes, now tell me. I was like, oh gosh, what are we getting ourselves into? And he said, now, do they really have divorce in the States? And so we had a long conversation about love and stuff like that. And again, one of the reasons why I really stuck to hanging out with women I couldn't really communicate with was, I mean, the men, you know, they want to marry you and that was always annoying. And so I would always make up the excuse that I had five husbands and didn't really need another one unless he wanted to be my sixth. But by the weekend I'm exhausted, you know. And so they thought that was funny."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They understood you were kidding?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.700220025590948, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I think. I mean, everybody kind of laughed so. I don't think that they really thought that I had that many husbands. It's interesting because one of my friends and myself went to Togo for a week for vacation because Togo had a beach, you know. And I think they had pineapple year-round. Because at site I didn't really have access to fresh fruit and vegetables unless it was rainy season and unless it was papaya or mangoes or watermelon. So I would have access to some fruit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, those are good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, absolutely. But it was very specific months of the year. So on the way down to Togo, we were on this huge bus and it broke down in the middle of the night. And so earlier, everybody was really mad at us because we had missed the bus and the bus left without us at this one stop. And so there's this whole debacle. And so after that, then the bus breaks down. And so we're all hanging out by the side of the bus. And, you know, I'm chatting it up with the women and telling them the story about the husband and making jokes. And at the end of that, all the women loved us and they're like, oh, you really well hung out with us. Like bien coze is French. So I thought that that was a good sign. I mean, I thought if anything, I learned how to be social."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great. So you finished your Peace Corps service."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened afterwards, did you travel on the way back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.666911139545498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, absolutely. But it was very specific months of the year. So on the way down to Togo, we were on this huge bus and it broke down in the middle of the night. And so earlier, everybody was really mad at us because we had missed the bus and the bus left without us at this one stop. And so there's this whole debacle. And so after that, then the bus breaks down. And so we're all hanging out by the side of the bus. And, you know, I'm chatting it up with the women and telling them the story about the husband and making jokes. And at the end of that, all the women loved us and they're like, oh, you really well hung out with us. Like bien coze is French. So I thought that that was a good sign. I mean, I thought if anything, I learned how to be social."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great. So you finished your Peace Corps service."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened afterwards, did you travel on the way back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did travel. I spent some time in Morocco and I spent some time in France and then tried to do the Camino de Santiago, got bitten by bedbugs. And so we took a slight detour and did the Portuguese Camino de Santiago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As opposed to the Spanish one?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.741012377272774, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened afterwards, did you travel on the way back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did travel. I spent some time in Morocco and I spent some time in France and then tried to do the Camino de Santiago, got bitten by bedbugs. And so we took a slight detour and did the Portuguese Camino de Santiago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As opposed to the Spanish one?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Because the bedbugs just ate me alive. I was pretty miserable. So, you know, I'd be remiss not to mention that, I mean, when I was in Peace Corps, I did get sick pretty often. I had diarrhea often. At least once a month, I would have a temperature of 103 for whatever reason. And I had boils, I broke out in boils. So right during one of the reading camps, I had this mosquito bite. And I think I was telling the story to Sam. I was like stabbing it with my leather because I was having issues and it grew to the size of a quarter, got black, and then by the time I got to Ouaga, Sylvie, the PCMO, she helped to kind of drain it and stuff like that. And so I kind of had the hole, a hole the size of a bullet, in my leg for a while. And then since then I had broken out in colonies of boils. So boils would just grow everywhere. And a lot of it was because of the heat. And so I was pretty miserable. And the second year my family really wanted me to come home for Christmas. And so they paid for a ticket and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was allowed? Was it allowed to go home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.04556930808086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did travel. I spent some time in Morocco and I spent some time in France and then tried to do the Camino de Santiago, got bitten by bedbugs. And so we took a slight detour and did the Portuguese Camino de Santiago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As opposed to the Spanish one?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Because the bedbugs just ate me alive. I was pretty miserable. So, you know, I'd be remiss not to mention that, I mean, when I was in Peace Corps, I did get sick pretty often. I had diarrhea often. At least once a month, I would have a temperature of 103 for whatever reason. And I had boils, I broke out in boils. So right during one of the reading camps, I had this mosquito bite. And I think I was telling the story to Sam. I was like stabbing it with my leather because I was having issues and it grew to the size of a quarter, got black, and then by the time I got to Ouaga, Sylvie, the PCMO, she helped to kind of drain it and stuff like that. And so I kind of had the hole, a hole the size of a bullet, in my leg for a while. And then since then I had broken out in colonies of boils. So boils would just grow everywhere. And a lot of it was because of the heat. And so I was pretty miserable. And the second year my family really wanted me to come home for Christmas. And so they paid for a ticket and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was allowed? Was it allowed to go home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In our days."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.8474136870749, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From the mefloquine, yeah. So that's been really difficult because I have some claims with Department of Labor, FECA, Federal Employees’ Compensation Act, and it's really, really, really, really, really hard to get access."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it doesn't go away after you take, after you finish taking the antimalarial?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it stay in your body forever?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lifecycle of mefloquine I think is four months. But maybe I'm wrong. But the side effects are permanent, so now I suffer from vestibular issues. So dizziness and vertigo. Yeah, there can be days when you feel so sick you don't even want to get out of bed. And I mean, I still break out in boils, especially every summer in D.C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are those related, are the boils related to the dizziness?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 25.386015207861, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it stay in your body forever?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lifecycle of mefloquine I think is four months. But maybe I'm wrong. But the side effects are permanent, so now I suffer from vestibular issues. So dizziness and vertigo. Yeah, there can be days when you feel so sick you don't even want to get out of bed. And I mean, I still break out in boils, especially every summer in D.C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are those related, are the boils related to the dizziness?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The dizziness? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just have two things going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 18.20668356429, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lifecycle of mefloquine I think is four months. But maybe I'm wrong. But the side effects are permanent, so now I suffer from vestibular issues. So dizziness and vertigo. Yeah, there can be days when you feel so sick you don't even want to get out of bed. And I mean, I still break out in boils, especially every summer in D.C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are those related, are the boils related to the dizziness?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The dizziness? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just have two things going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's just been, it's a nightmare getting access to Department of Labor. I've had to get my Congressional representatives involved. I mean, I've been living in D.C. for five years, but I'm still registered in Alaska because the Alaskan senators are more, they're more responsive. And I was always worried that Eleanor Norton Holmes, who's, you know, our District representative in Congress, I was worried that she wouldn't have the standing to tell the Department of Labor, look, you need to be responsive. So it's pretty, it's been really, really challenging actually.\n\nI think really most of the impact of my Peace Corps service has really been post-service, because that's when. It's just been even more challenging because I'm in the States and I should have access to these resources. And you're just, you're largely not able to access them. So I've been working with Nancy Tongue with Health Justice for Peace Corps Volunteers. And we've been really trying to be heard. Because even within the Peace Corps community, it's been really difficult to create a safe space where you can be slightly critical of Peace Corps. Because Peace Corps needs to do better by their volunteers when we come back sick and injured."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would the solution be? I mean, not going to the Department of Labor? Should Peace Corps be handling this all on their own? Because they don't really have a disability program, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.6341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, somebody from the United States would know about it, but it's something that they should be made aware of."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. And that was, and so with the legislation, with what I had, that's what I requested from Representative Poe’s office, who is leading the drafting of the legislation on the House side. And, yeah, adequate training for your PCMOs and to start mefloquine in the States. That's fine. I mean, I don't want to sue Peace Corps just to sue. I mean I was really trying to make a point and so yeah, start mefloquine in the States and use it safely. But there was pushback from Peace Corps and then some Representative's office, Chairman Royce's office, of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, they said, well, Peace Corps should be compliant with the CDC with all medication. But unfortunately, word had gotten around that Peace Corps had already said that they were compliant with the CDC. So when dealing with Congress it’s just, it’s a nightmare."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it’s still a pending issue. Did your lawsuit go anywhere?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The judge ruled that I, that the U.S. courts lacked jurisdiction because it originated overseas. And I said, well, that proves my point. I mean, Peace Corps specifically waited to give it to me overseas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were an American working for an American agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. And that was, and so with the legislation, with what I had, that's what I requested from Representative Poe’s office, who is leading the drafting of the legislation on the House side. And, yeah, adequate training for your PCMOs and to start mefloquine in the States. That's fine. I mean, I don't want to sue Peace Corps just to sue. I mean I was really trying to make a point and so yeah, start mefloquine in the States and use it safely. But there was pushback from Peace Corps and then some Representative's office, Chairman Royce's office, of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, they said, well, Peace Corps should be compliant with the CDC with all medication. But unfortunately, word had gotten around that Peace Corps had already said that they were compliant with the CDC. So when dealing with Congress it’s just, it’s a nightmare."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it’s still a pending issue. Did your lawsuit go anywhere?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The judge ruled that I, that the U.S. courts lacked jurisdiction because it originated overseas. And I said, well, that proves my point. I mean, Peace Corps specifically waited to give it to me overseas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were an American working for an American agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, unfortunately. I mean, so if you're a federal employee, you cannot. So I sued through the Federal Tort Claims Act, so you have to be kind of a civilian overseas, injured by the. Well, sorry. For the Federal Tort Claims Act, you have to be a civilian that's been injured by the federal government for whatever reason. So, for instance, like you trip and fall on a post office sidewalk and are injured because of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that's different. I mean, you were a government employee."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.609999999999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The judge ruled that I, that the U.S. courts lacked jurisdiction because it originated overseas. And I said, well, that proves my point. I mean, Peace Corps specifically waited to give it to me overseas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were an American working for an American agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, unfortunately. I mean, so if you're a federal employee, you cannot. So I sued through the Federal Tort Claims Act, so you have to be kind of a civilian overseas, injured by the. Well, sorry. For the Federal Tort Claims Act, you have to be a civilian that's been injured by the federal government for whatever reason. So, for instance, like you trip and fall on a post office sidewalk and are injured because of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that's different. I mean, you were a government employee."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and so that was the court's reasoning as well, that I had access to Department of Labor FECA. But I tried to show, I mean, I had call logs where I called my claims examiner several times, never got back to me. I mean, I had documentation to show that Department of Labor wasn't even compliant with their own rules and regulations. So I do not, in fact, have access to FECA as a former Peace Corps volunteer. And so, um, yeah, so there is that and then it originated overseas. And there was like a third reason why the courts rejected it. But I mean, regardless, it was more out of principle than anything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's been an ongoing saga. But are you being treated for it? Is there treatment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and so that was the court's reasoning as well, that I had access to Department of Labor FECA. But I tried to show, I mean, I had call logs where I called my claims examiner several times, never got back to me. I mean, I had documentation to show that Department of Labor wasn't even compliant with their own rules and regulations. So I do not, in fact, have access to FECA as a former Peace Corps volunteer. And so, um, yeah, so there is that and then it originated overseas. And there was like a third reason why the courts rejected it. But I mean, regardless, it was more out of principle than anything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's been an ongoing saga. But are you being treated for it? Is there treatment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There is no treatment. And unfortunately, even in the States it’s been really difficult to find a doctor. Mefloquine toxicity doesn't exist in the medical literature yet. If you talk to the VA, if you talk to former military doctors, I'm in touch with a former military physician and a former Army psychiatrist. And they're, you know, they're very well read on mefloquine toxicity. And they've done quite a few studies about it and have published literature on it. So they've been incredibly supportive. It's interesting, the military community is incredibly supportive of sick and injured volunteers because they really get it, you know, and it's just a little unfortunate that, you know, the Peace Corps, broader Peace Corps community should be a little bit more receptive to people who have been sick and injured and, you know, just want a safe space to talk about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it's just people are not aware of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "True. There is some of that. Absolutely. So, yeah. But yeah, we've been working with the National Peace Corps Association. I've had several meetings on the Hill. So we'll see slowly, slowly. Little by little was what they would say in Burkina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But other than that, it was a good experience, it sounds like."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There is no treatment. And unfortunately, even in the States it’s been really difficult to find a doctor. Mefloquine toxicity doesn't exist in the medical literature yet. If you talk to the VA, if you talk to former military doctors, I'm in touch with a former military physician and a former Army psychiatrist. And they're, you know, they're very well read on mefloquine toxicity. And they've done quite a few studies about it and have published literature on it. So they've been incredibly supportive. It's interesting, the military community is incredibly supportive of sick and injured volunteers because they really get it, you know, and it's just a little unfortunate that, you know, the Peace Corps, broader Peace Corps community should be a little bit more receptive to people who have been sick and injured and, you know, just want a safe space to talk about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it's just people are not aware of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "True. There is some of that. Absolutely. So, yeah. But yeah, we've been working with the National Peace Corps Association. I've had several meetings on the Hill. So we'll see slowly, slowly. Little by little was what they would say in Burkina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But other than that, it was a good experience, it sounds like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean it's interesting because especially with me being on the Hill, all of my talking points surround my health issues. So I feel like my memory of kind of the better parts of my service have really just been colored in a different light or have diminished somewhat. And yeah, it's interesting. I was looking at pictures the other day and it was good to see me happy in Burkina. And like I said, I do think that my Peace Corps medical officers did take care of me. I have heard from other volunteers where they haven't been as fortunate. So I do feel very lucky. But yeah, my service, it's very complicated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's changed your life, but not for the better because now you have a chronic illness."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "True. There is some of that. Absolutely. So, yeah. But yeah, we've been working with the National Peace Corps Association. I've had several meetings on the Hill. So we'll see slowly, slowly. Little by little was what they would say in Burkina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But other than that, it was a good experience, it sounds like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean it's interesting because especially with me being on the Hill, all of my talking points surround my health issues. So I feel like my memory of kind of the better parts of my service have really just been colored in a different light or have diminished somewhat. And yeah, it's interesting. I was looking at pictures the other day and it was good to see me happy in Burkina. And like I said, I do think that my Peace Corps medical officers did take care of me. I have heard from other volunteers where they haven't been as fortunate. So I do feel very lucky. But yeah, my service, it's very complicated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's changed your life, but not for the better because now you have a chronic illness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean without the illnesses, you know, sure. Would I be living and working the life in D.C.? Sure. But to a certain extent, you know, there's such a community of those of us who have been sick and injured and we haven't really had a platform and we really haven't had advocacy. And so it's actually been, yeah, it's actually been pretty rewarding trying to affect that change that I think is needed. I mean, you know, there are so many discussions anymore about what's the direction of Peace Corps with technology and what about phones? And I think that we're in such a prime environment where we can really look at Peace Corps critically. I mean, and not to be critical in the sense of, oh, this is part of this, but critical in ways that matter, you know, and to make it run more efficient or have a greater impact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, there are lessons that are learned in each period, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean without the illnesses, you know, sure. Would I be living and working the life in D.C.? Sure. But to a certain extent, you know, there's such a community of those of us who have been sick and injured and we haven't really had a platform and we really haven't had advocacy. And so it's actually been, yeah, it's actually been pretty rewarding trying to affect that change that I think is needed. I mean, you know, there are so many discussions anymore about what's the direction of Peace Corps with technology and what about phones? And I think that we're in such a prime environment where we can really look at Peace Corps critically. I mean, and not to be critical in the sense of, oh, this is part of this, but critical in ways that matter, you know, and to make it run more efficient or have a greater impact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, there are lessons that are learned in each period, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So, I mean, hopefully, you know, well, I do think the environment is ripe for that. Now, whether or not anybody really grabs that torch and, you know, charges full steam ahead into that argument, I don't know. But I do think it's warranted. And I do hope that, you know, those of us who have been sick and injured are part of that conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good, so thank you for the interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, thank you for having me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you want to say?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00045:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So, I mean, hopefully, you know, well, I do think the environment is ripe for that. Now, whether or not anybody really grabs that torch and, you know, charges full steam ahead into that argument, I don't know. But I do think it's warranted. And I do hope that, you know, those of us who have been sick and injured are part of that conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good, so thank you for the interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, thank you for having me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you want to say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, yeah, I think there are so many, but it's all right, I think, uh, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You made the point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00957:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 93.20677348699999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sure, it was an old Army ordnance plant. They had all that. I don’t remember a hangar so much—maybe a little building where people kind of waved their flags to say, “Land.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What an interesting time to fly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I won’t say it was the Wild West because it’s Ohio, but people just did what they had to do to get it done. They just didn’t have all the rules and regulations and stipulations that you must do this or that. If you knew Eb Gough, Eb just did whatever the heck he needed to do. Fred came along and he was a new engineer, and he was very kind and sweet. Of course, he may have a different idea of it, but I remember that because they were just very, very nice to me.\\n\\n You do a lot of things in life. You have different worlds that you live in, with your family, with your community, your volunteer work, your work, and I always felt, in this particular place, to be well respected and cared about. That was a nice thing. I was 22, 23, 24 years old by then, and what did I know? I hadn’t lived much of life yet, but a lot of them were much older and had been through it all. I felt it was a good opportunity. I don’t know that the treatment we had for mustard gas exposure or radiation was worth anything, but that’s what we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s all you knew, at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all we had. Sometimes the nuclear regulatory people would come down and walk around. I was often in a Jeep, riding around, looking for stuff, seeing what guys were doing, making sure they weren’t creating issues. I felt like the public safety person, I guess. I don’t mean to overextend what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but your role was varied. It wasn’t just in the clinic."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00957:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 47, "return_to_go": 101.34085943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I won’t say it was the Wild West because it’s Ohio, but people just did what they had to do to get it done. They just didn’t have all the rules and regulations and stipulations that you must do this or that. If you knew Eb Gough, Eb just did whatever the heck he needed to do. Fred came along and he was a new engineer, and he was very kind and sweet. Of course, he may have a different idea of it, but I remember that because they were just very, very nice to me.\\n\\n You do a lot of things in life. You have different worlds that you live in, with your family, with your community, your volunteer work, your work, and I always felt, in this particular place, to be well respected and cared about. That was a nice thing. I was 22, 23, 24 years old by then, and what did I know? I hadn’t lived much of life yet, but a lot of them were much older and had been through it all. I felt it was a good opportunity. I don’t know that the treatment we had for mustard gas exposure or radiation was worth anything, but that’s what we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s all you knew, at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all we had. Sometimes the nuclear regulatory people would come down and walk around. I was often in a Jeep, riding around, looking for stuff, seeing what guys were doing, making sure they weren’t creating issues. I felt like the public safety person, I guess. I don’t mean to overextend what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but your role was varied. It wasn’t just in the clinic."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, I was there to provide health care, and if I could avoid a health issue, I was giving them better care than treating it, I felt like. Nobody ever told me not to. Nobody ever said, “You can’t do this or that.” That was pretty much my career, and then Glynn and I got married in April ’60, after a long sort of courtship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you meet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00957:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the name changed to NASA from NACA, it was just a name-change; it meant no difference to their work. Maybe there was something I wasn’t aware of because it didn’t affect anything I did.\\n\\n One day we were NASA, and one day we were at NACA, so I really don’t know that it mattered that much. The thing that probably bothered most of us was when they changed from the Lewis Research Center and called it John Glenn Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask you, did you have to wear a nurse’s uniform?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. White stockings, shoes, cap, uniform, all of that. Carried my hemostats and scissors in my pocket, and everything you would need to tie off a bleeder or something. It’s just the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in the Jeep and in the plane, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was our role, and I never felt—I don’t know what the word is—I won’t say I was that self-assured, but I’ve never felt threatened, or maybe because Ruth was a good steady, influence on me. There was another lady would fill in when Ruth would go on vacation, so then I’d essentially be in charge. She took over when I got to Plum Brook, for that day. There were always two nurses there because one would have to sometimes go out on the site, which I usually did, and somebody would always be in the office in case somebody was brought in or came in, there. We had a lot of heart attacks, we had strokes, we had anything that can happen to the human population, and they happened in earlier days than they do now. You had 40-and-50-year-olds having coronaries, strokes, and a lot of lung disease. Some of the Korean veterans had a lot of lung disease. I can’t remember anything specific, but smoking was very much the thing to do, and drinking. It was Humphrey Bogart era—they all did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were a lot of social activities during those time periods, too, wasn’t there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00957:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. White stockings, shoes, cap, uniform, all of that. Carried my hemostats and scissors in my pocket, and everything you would need to tie off a bleeder or something. It’s just the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in the Jeep and in the plane, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was our role, and I never felt—I don’t know what the word is—I won’t say I was that self-assured, but I’ve never felt threatened, or maybe because Ruth was a good steady, influence on me. There was another lady would fill in when Ruth would go on vacation, so then I’d essentially be in charge. She took over when I got to Plum Brook, for that day. There were always two nurses there because one would have to sometimes go out on the site, which I usually did, and somebody would always be in the office in case somebody was brought in or came in, there. We had a lot of heart attacks, we had strokes, we had anything that can happen to the human population, and they happened in earlier days than they do now. You had 40-and-50-year-olds having coronaries, strokes, and a lot of lung disease. Some of the Korean veterans had a lot of lung disease. I can’t remember anything specific, but smoking was very much the thing to do, and drinking. It was Humphrey Bogart era—they all did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were a lot of social activities during those time periods, too, wasn’t there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was always some event—picnics, and the family picnics, and all kinds of things. My sister and brother-in-law would go, and my parents, we’d bring them along, with the picnics. Two or three nights a week, we’d be doing something with the folks. Our job was regular 8:00 to 5:00 there; I didn’t have to work shifts or anything, so whatever it was, 8:00 to 5:00, I think it was. It was just easy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you stay living with your parents until you and Glynn married?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.83264119952255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, and there’s materials that get outlawed. They did have to make some substitutes due to, I forget what laws, but some of the materials you just can’t use anymore in the industry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you guys keep track of how many tests you guys have done over the years at the Arc Jet facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We probably ought to take the time one day to go count them. We test about 200-300 a year, has been our clip recently. I think one year we did 400-and-something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people work at the facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, there’s zero."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people worked at the facility?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.14737911058061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We probably ought to take the time one day to go count them. We test about 200-300 a year, has been our clip recently. I think one year we did 400-and-something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people work at the facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, there’s zero."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people worked at the facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not super clean, but on order of 20. For a while, we were running two shifts during Return to Flight. Before Columbia, we’re down to bare bones, and then we had to build back up. That process wasn’t immediate—it was a good three, four years before we really felt a lot of confidence, and we’re blowing and going and had some good inertia and some continuity. For our first few years, we just clunked along; things would break. Our PM [Project Management] plan wasn’t very good, and we’re just basically inefficient. It took a long time to get into a mode where we’re really humming along nicely. Probably two years ago, we’re doing great. Just real good reliability, we’d be turning that Arc on any time we wanted, and morale was really high. Guys were doing real good. The shut-down process killed that. That was another thing that was disappointing. It’s like, “Man, we got this place running how we always wanted, it’s really doing the best it’s ever done, and here we are, shutting it down.” That was tough to take."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. What are your memories of that last test? Were you there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.69736503509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I missed the very last test. I was with my father, he’s been sick, so I missed the last one. Matt and some of the long-time customers came and thanked the team for their dedication. I had written a little note that I had Ron read for me, but I wasn’t able to be there. Then, that afternoon, they tested a test for the Safety Office, testing a system that if you do have a breach in your heat shield and you’re able to turn on some sort of fluid or compressed gas to pressurize the compartment between the pressure vessel and the heat shield—there’s two different pieces of structure, usually, in the capsule like that. There’s a pressure vessel where the crew is, and then outside that is a heat shield. If you’re able to pressurize that, you can actually make air—let’s just say it’s nitrogen—if the pressure’s great enough, it would actually flow out of the breach, so you have cold gas flowing out rather than hot gas coming in to your spacecraft. You wouldn’t need to repair it—you’ve just got this air flowing out. No hot air is coming in, and it’s entirely feasible because, like I said, the heating usually is at a high altitude and the pressure’s pretty low. You really don’t need that much mass flow or pressure to get the flow to go out. They built a little rig to test the system like that, and that was the last test we did. It worked out great, evidently."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A bittersweet moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk a little bit about the camaraderie out there at the facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I always liked going out there because my seat wasn’t there. Just a real good atmosphere, everybody’s super friendly and always willing to do whatever it took to get things to happen. They share food all the time and they have a Christmas dinner every year, so it’s a really good group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw you guys have a logo or a patch, when we were out there, doing some of the taping."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.8859611501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk a little bit about the camaraderie out there at the facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I always liked going out there because my seat wasn’t there. Just a real good atmosphere, everybody’s super friendly and always willing to do whatever it took to get things to happen. They share food all the time and they have a Christmas dinner every year, so it’s a really good group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw you guys have a logo or a patch, when we were out there, doing some of the taping."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I became deputy branch chief, that was one of my assignments, to be lab manager. I got—it was Lockheed, at the time—a Lockheed guy to design us a patch, so we made a little patch and went out and bought some shirts. It ended up being a pretty cool patch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell us about the patch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.095512389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I always liked going out there because my seat wasn’t there. Just a real good atmosphere, everybody’s super friendly and always willing to do whatever it took to get things to happen. They share food all the time and they have a Christmas dinner every year, so it’s a really good group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw you guys have a logo or a patch, when we were out there, doing some of the taping."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I became deputy branch chief, that was one of my assignments, to be lab manager. I got—it was Lockheed, at the time—a Lockheed guy to design us a patch, so we made a little patch and went out and bought some shirts. It ended up being a pretty cool patch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell us about the patch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had the name on the outside, like a mission patch, a little icon for a shockwave, and a little lightning bolt arc heating it up. It said, “JSC Arc Jet” on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier, you had mentioned one of the tests you did was for Boeing. Was that for their commercial space venture?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.43945821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I became deputy branch chief, that was one of my assignments, to be lab manager. I got—it was Lockheed, at the time—a Lockheed guy to design us a patch, so we made a little patch and went out and bought some shirts. It ended up being a pretty cool patch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell us about the patch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had the name on the outside, like a mission patch, a little icon for a shockwave, and a little lightning bolt arc heating it up. It said, “JSC Arc Jet” on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier, you had mentioned one of the tests you did was for Boeing. Was that for their commercial space venture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.4882869, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had the name on the outside, like a mission patch, a little icon for a shockwave, and a little lightning bolt arc heating it up. It said, “JSC Arc Jet” on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier, you had mentioned one of the tests you did was for Boeing. Was that for their commercial space venture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This country’s developing four re-entry spacecraft right now. We have MCPV, and then Boeing, Sierra Nevada, and SpaceX, vying to be the next Low-Earth Orbit guys. Right now, there’s four, and those guys need to test. That’s one thing I’ve been trying to point out. Boeing approached us to do testing for their vehicle. They’re going through different materials in their selection, and they have an in-house material they’re trying to see if they are confident enough in. They approached us to do some testing, and we signed the Space Act. We have a similar one with Sierra Nevada to do radiant testing. Boeing was real anxious to get in. In fact, we delayed, if you will, our closing so that we can meet that commitment because we had already signed the Space Act. It was basically the last set of tests we did before that one for the Safety Office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any testing for SpaceX?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.542541, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This country’s developing four re-entry spacecraft right now. We have MCPV, and then Boeing, Sierra Nevada, and SpaceX, vying to be the next Low-Earth Orbit guys. Right now, there’s four, and those guys need to test. That’s one thing I’ve been trying to point out. Boeing approached us to do testing for their vehicle. They’re going through different materials in their selection, and they have an in-house material they’re trying to see if they are confident enough in. They approached us to do some testing, and we signed the Space Act. We have a similar one with Sierra Nevada to do radiant testing. Boeing was real anxious to get in. In fact, we delayed, if you will, our closing so that we can meet that commitment because we had already signed the Space Act. It was basically the last set of tests we did before that one for the Safety Office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any testing for SpaceX?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, did not. They’ve tested a little bit at Ames, but we’ve never tested for SpaceX. Their heat shields are doing good, so you got to hand it to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you done any work for any universities, perhaps, or other Centers out at the Arc Jet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.26949, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This country’s developing four re-entry spacecraft right now. We have MCPV, and then Boeing, Sierra Nevada, and SpaceX, vying to be the next Low-Earth Orbit guys. Right now, there’s four, and those guys need to test. That’s one thing I’ve been trying to point out. Boeing approached us to do testing for their vehicle. They’re going through different materials in their selection, and they have an in-house material they’re trying to see if they are confident enough in. They approached us to do some testing, and we signed the Space Act. We have a similar one with Sierra Nevada to do radiant testing. Boeing was real anxious to get in. In fact, we delayed, if you will, our closing so that we can meet that commitment because we had already signed the Space Act. It was basically the last set of tests we did before that one for the Safety Office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any testing for SpaceX?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, did not. They’ve tested a little bit at Ames, but we’ve never tested for SpaceX. Their heat shields are doing good, so you got to hand it to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you done any work for any universities, perhaps, or other Centers out at the Arc Jet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we’ve done work for other Centers. We did a little bit of things for the Air Force, Air Force Research Lab. I’m trying to think. I can’t recall too much else. Our bread and butter has been the big programs: Apollo, Shuttle, X-38, MPCV. The other interesting thing is, Shuttle—we were testing up until two weeks before the last mission. Arc Jet testing isn’t just for developing the material. We found that we tested every year for the Shuttle in its existence, through development, through qualification, certification, first flight, last flight. Through the whole life of the program, the Shuttle, at least, required Arc Jet testing. It’s a very big player, the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve talked several times about the CO2 landing for Mars. Why’d did you come up with that concept? What drove you to come up with the idea?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.9661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, did not. They’ve tested a little bit at Ames, but we’ve never tested for SpaceX. Their heat shields are doing good, so you got to hand it to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you done any work for any universities, perhaps, or other Centers out at the Arc Jet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we’ve done work for other Centers. We did a little bit of things for the Air Force, Air Force Research Lab. I’m trying to think. I can’t recall too much else. Our bread and butter has been the big programs: Apollo, Shuttle, X-38, MPCV. The other interesting thing is, Shuttle—we were testing up until two weeks before the last mission. Arc Jet testing isn’t just for developing the material. We found that we tested every year for the Shuttle in its existence, through development, through qualification, certification, first flight, last flight. Through the whole life of the program, the Shuttle, at least, required Arc Jet testing. It’s a very big player, the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve talked several times about the CO2 landing for Mars. Why’d did you come up with that concept? What drove you to come up with the idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just thought, “We can do it,” and the guys did it in their spare time, on the side. Manned mission to Mars and big missions to Mars has been talked back and forth forever. Sometimes, our Agency says, “Hey, don’t worry about it; don’t talk about it,” the other time it says, “Hey, that’s what you should be thinking.” We just felt if we attained the capability, we would probably have a customer some day to use it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve shared that with Ames, since they’ll be the only Arc Jet Facility?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 6.629, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we’ve done work for other Centers. We did a little bit of things for the Air Force, Air Force Research Lab. I’m trying to think. I can’t recall too much else. Our bread and butter has been the big programs: Apollo, Shuttle, X-38, MPCV. The other interesting thing is, Shuttle—we were testing up until two weeks before the last mission. Arc Jet testing isn’t just for developing the material. We found that we tested every year for the Shuttle in its existence, through development, through qualification, certification, first flight, last flight. Through the whole life of the program, the Shuttle, at least, required Arc Jet testing. It’s a very big player, the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve talked several times about the CO2 landing for Mars. Why’d did you come up with that concept? What drove you to come up with the idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just thought, “We can do it,” and the guys did it in their spare time, on the side. Manned mission to Mars and big missions to Mars has been talked back and forth forever. Sometimes, our Agency says, “Hey, don’t worry about it; don’t talk about it,” the other time it says, “Hey, that’s what you should be thinking.” We just felt if we attained the capability, we would probably have a customer some day to use it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve shared that with Ames, since they’ll be the only Arc Jet Facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They haven’t developed it yet, but they intend to, by the end of the fiscal year, develop that capability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me a little bit about the deactivation process that the Arc Jet Facility has undergone since the decision was made to close the facility."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00371:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The process has been long, long in terms of actually closing. There’s basically an order given, “You need to shut down,” and our Center Director at the time, [Michael L.] Coats, wrote back a letter, said, “Okay, we’re going to shut down, but we’ve got to do these things first. Ames needs to develop the capabilities that we have that they don’t have, so the Agency doesn’t lose those capabilities.” We had a list of tests we needed to do, and Ames had to develop these capabilities. At first, each of them were projected to be six months away, and then we both kept marching in time. They really marched together, coincidentally. So it wasn’t until probably a year after that, [that] we originally intended to close, before we finally finished up what we needed to finish up. Ames has come real close to finishing their capabilities, so we did our last test. That shutdown process has been basically: drain the systems, de-energize everything, safe it out, and walk away.\\n\\n We got a set of contractors running it because nobody’s giving us any money to do any sort of real tearing it apart. Our guys did the last test, we spent two weeks turning off things and de-energizing it, then Ames came out last week and pulled all the Arc Heater parts that they felt they could use, packed them up, and shipped them out to Ames. That’s where we’re at now. We got a building full of Arc Jetty type pieces of equipment and pumps and valves and tools and copper tubing and all sorts of crazy things, that we’re going to have to figure out a way to disposition. The shutdown was simple; it was turn everything off and leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s slated to be demolished sometime this year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, 2017."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hadn’t realized it was going to sit for a while. That seems like a shame, to sit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask sort of an, I don’t know, emotional question: what do you think that the Arc Jet Facility has meant to you, since you worked there for so many years on different projects?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00801:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 40.3438637077142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and the Beatles are a great one for that, too. But this one particular event was just something that kind of sat me back as being so different, seemingly funny, but maybe not to them, but very funny to me. Because I had worked over here in our control room, I'd worked over here not on a console, but I'd worked in there. I know the decorum. I know what's expected. And this just it was good to see. I learned from that experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's good. I'm glad at least you had a light moment to get you through."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, there were a few, but that one there wasn't anybody I didn't have anybody sitting with me that I could have shared it with, another American. I was down there by myself. This was going on. Who do you turn to? You don't do anything. You just sit back and just admire the moment. It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm glad you were the sole observer. It was worth being on that shift at that moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I guess, but it was like I said, it was eye-opening to see the difference. It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it was an experience I'm sure you'll always remember. And your family, I'm sure they were always glad to see you come home."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00801:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.063044822000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It came up post-flight in some of his debriefings, and I heard his comments. We never talked about it so much. I tried to compare his notes to mine, understanding what he was having to deal with, flying with a couple of guys that he hadn't trained with during his increment since they changed out the Mir crew just before launch. So he was having to deal with similar problems, in some ways extremely much more difficult, because he never had the option to say, \"Let's get some more support over here. Send me some relief.\" That was never his option, so he had to come to grips with that change. There was a lot of changes going on back here administratively, which also made things hard, but they went on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've all gotten through it, and now it goes on to the next phase."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We hope so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine you'll be busy until the next phase or in the midst of the next phase. What was that about your organized chaos or continual chaos?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's a certain familiarity with chaos. You just don't let it get you down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. At least it's never boring."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00801:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.379999999999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The Russians didn't care."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just was wondering if they asked."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In fact, to keep things simple, I signed things with my nickname instead of my given name. I considered it binding, but if I'd signed something else, they wouldn't have known who it was. So I signed with the nickname that I was using in TsUP that they would then associate with approval by the NASA official."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How is your Russian now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very poor. It was never good. I went over with a crew in April for ten days, and it took me three days to begin to get the Russian back, and I got back maybe 20 or 30 percent of what I had when I left, just in terms of being able to use it and do things quickly. It would take a while. It's not a hard language. A lot of it is cognates. They all sound the same as the American word. It's just the letters are different, and you can converse without being correct. I was never correct in the Russian language, but I was able to get across what I needed to get across. Whenever dealing with technical details that had to be specifically correct in coordination, we always used an interpreter. It was only in joking around or in light conversation that we would attempt to exchange in each other's language, which was fun. It was fun. I had a number of people on the Russian flight control team over there that I have the highest regard for and respect for. We had a relatively good time together, and they were very helpful in us getting our job done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I certainly appreciate all that you've shared. I'm going to ask Carol and Mark if they have any questions.\n\nI just want to ask one question. What was your favorite thing to do in Moscow? I know you said you didn't have much free time, but . . ."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.49897062655343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sir. Born in Corsicana, Texas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Went to school at—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to Texas A&M University, class of [19]’52."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then into the Army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then I went to the Army for about 2 years. I was in Korea, and then when I got out, I went to work at Radio Corporation of America [RCA]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do at RCA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.109967362837146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to Texas A&M University, class of [19]’52."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then into the Army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then I went to the Army for about 2 years. I was in Korea, and then when I got out, I went to work at Radio Corporation of America [RCA]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do at RCA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, very interesting. I started my engineering career and I had the opportunity my first day or first week there to work on something called a microwave oven; and I worked on the early magnetrons that went into a microwave oven. I didn’t know what they were talking about. They said, “We’re going to design an oven that you can cook a roast in, in a few minutes.” I went home and told my wife, I said—she said, “You don’t know how to cook.” I said, “No, but we’re going to design an oven.” So, I worked on magnetrons, which is the main tube in a microwave oven; and then I worked on color television at RCA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does one make the skip from microwave ovens and color television—?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 17.899963736485716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then I went to the Army for about 2 years. I was in Korea, and then when I got out, I went to work at Radio Corporation of America [RCA]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do at RCA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, very interesting. I started my engineering career and I had the opportunity my first day or first week there to work on something called a microwave oven; and I worked on the early magnetrons that went into a microwave oven. I didn’t know what they were talking about. They said, “We’re going to design an oven that you can cook a roast in, in a few minutes.” I went home and told my wife, I said—she said, “You don’t know how to cook.” I said, “No, but we’re going to design an oven.” So, I worked on magnetrons, which is the main tube in a microwave oven; and then I worked on color television at RCA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does one make the skip from microwave ovens and color television—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s still electronics. Electronic tube is basically what it is. I worked on the magnetron, which is a part of the electronic tube; and then of course the colored television is basically an electronic tube. So, basically that’s the same—that’s the theme. It’s electronic systems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the move into General Dynamics took you—."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 14.333293040539683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, very interesting. I started my engineering career and I had the opportunity my first day or first week there to work on something called a microwave oven; and I worked on the early magnetrons that went into a microwave oven. I didn’t know what they were talking about. They said, “We’re going to design an oven that you can cook a roast in, in a few minutes.” I went home and told my wife, I said—she said, “You don’t know how to cook.” I said, “No, but we’re going to design an oven.” So, I worked on magnetrons, which is the main tube in a microwave oven; and then I worked on color television at RCA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does one make the skip from microwave ovens and color television—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s still electronics. Electronic tube is basically what it is. I worked on the magnetron, which is a part of the electronic tube; and then of course the colored television is basically an electronic tube. So, basically that’s the same—that’s the theme. It’s electronic systems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the move into General Dynamics took you—."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was an interesting thing. I got interested in the space program just by reading what was happening in the paper. And it turns out that General Dynamics was interviewing in New York City; and, of course, I was working in New Jersey. And I took the train across to New York City and interviewed with General Dynamics, and I got a job. And so my wife and I moved to San Diego [California] to work for General Dynamics Astronautics [Corporation] and—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your job? Your first job at General Dynamics?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.1967739344268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you set about doing that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was working on the team that set—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—about doing that. And we worked on the contract—we worked on the proposal to NASA for the Apollo spacecraft, Apollo mission. And, of course, we didn’t win. And then after that, I decided, well, I still wanted to—I got very interested in Apollo and decided I wanted to go work for NASA. And that’s when I came and worked for NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember hearing that speech that [President] John [F.] Kennedy made?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.242930783242961, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—about doing that. And we worked on the contract—we worked on the proposal to NASA for the Apollo spacecraft, Apollo mission. And, of course, we didn’t win. And then after that, I decided, well, I still wanted to—I got very interested in Apollo and decided I wanted to go work for NASA. And that’s when I came and worked for NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember hearing that speech that [President] John [F.] Kennedy made?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do. Of course at that time, I believe that was (what?) in [19]’60, ’61—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "’61, ’62—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "’62."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—somewhere like that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.38103420360329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do. Of course at that time, I believe that was (what?) in [19]’60, ’61—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "’61, ’62—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "’62."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—somewhere like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I joined NASA—I think I was at NASA—I got enamored with the program before the speech, I believe. And that was when we were still working on the proposal. And—but I do remember the speech. Yes, I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you remember thinking, “Wait a minute. I’m not sure we can do this?”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.201149115114767, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "’62."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—somewhere like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I joined NASA—I think I was at NASA—I got enamored with the program before the speech, I believe. And that was when we were still working on the proposal. And—but I do remember the speech. Yes, I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you remember thinking, “Wait a minute. I’m not sure we can do this?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I guess maybe I—No, I didn’t. I didn’t really think that. Now you know, talking to some of the other people like Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] and maybe Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney, they may’ve thought that. I really didn’t think—I probably wasn’t smart enough to think that. I probably thought it was an engineering problem. And not really recognizing what all the issues were, just decided that we could do it. Now in—at that time—the early times of the Apollo Program—I was primarily focused on the guidance, navigation, and control and the reentry heating, the thermodynamics of it, which were two big technology efforts you had to overcome. But that’s really what I was working on in the early days of the Apollo Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you went to work for NASA, did you immediately come to Houston [Texas]? Or did you go to Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] first?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.001276794571963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I joined NASA—I think I was at NASA—I got enamored with the program before the speech, I believe. And that was when we were still working on the proposal. And—but I do remember the speech. Yes, I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you remember thinking, “Wait a minute. I’m not sure we can do this?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I guess maybe I—No, I didn’t. I didn’t really think that. Now you know, talking to some of the other people like Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] and maybe Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney, they may’ve thought that. I really didn’t think—I probably wasn’t smart enough to think that. I probably thought it was an engineering problem. And not really recognizing what all the issues were, just decided that we could do it. Now in—at that time—the early times of the Apollo Program—I was primarily focused on the guidance, navigation, and control and the reentry heating, the thermodynamics of it, which were two big technology efforts you had to overcome. But that’s really what I was working on in the early days of the Apollo Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you went to work for NASA, did you immediately come to Houston [Texas]? Or did you go to Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] first?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went to Houston. I went—I came directly to Houston. In fact, we worked—I came to work at—on the freeway, off the freeway, Gulf Freeway—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Farnsworth Chambers building?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.655897277249337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went to Houston. I went—I came directly to Houston. In fact, we worked—I came to work at—on the freeway, off the freeway, Gulf Freeway—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Farnsworth Chambers building?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—I was in the Office City building, right on the Gulf Freeway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the Gulf Freeway. Okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.451725033641157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—I was in the Office City building, right on the Gulf Freeway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the Gulf Freeway. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, that’s where I came to work. That’s where I worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I recall, back in those days, there were all these bright, young men—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.50191670404573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, that’s where I came to work. That’s where I worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I recall, back in those days, there were all these bright, young men—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—mostly men at Farnsworth Chambers."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.668796337828589, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, that’s where I came to work. That’s where I worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I recall, back in those days, there were all these bright, young men—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—mostly men at Farnsworth Chambers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—And all these bright—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.965329264253986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—mostly men at Farnsworth Chambers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—And all these bright—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—young people over at the Gulf Freeway."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.125940046111854, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—and I was in the engineering building. There was another one—there were several other buildings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Houston—there was a little petroleum building on the freeway. And then there was a—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—there were a couple of other buildings that I don’t recall the names of. But Farnsworth Chambers was like the headquarters, and the Gulf Freeway was what—where the Apollo Program Office was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somebody described that as an extremely heady time for engineers. It was like you were looking for the Golden Fleece and knew you were going to find it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.028822273457614, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Houston—there was a little petroleum building on the freeway. And then there was a—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—there were a couple of other buildings that I don’t recall the names of. But Farnsworth Chambers was like the headquarters, and the Gulf Freeway was what—where the Apollo Program Office was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somebody described that as an extremely heady time for engineers. It was like you were looking for the Golden Fleece and knew you were going to find it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as you know, when you think about it—when you think about it, you said, did I think we couldn’t make it? That’s a very interesting question because if you really look back on it, there were not any textbooks written of how you were going to do that. We didn’t—couldn’t find a textbook of how you were going to do the aerodynamic heating. How were you going to do the guidance, navigation, and control. How you were going to build the structures. How you were going to design an environmental control system. How you were going to design the landing system. So, there were not any textbooks. So, we almost had to write the textbooks as we were going on. And as I tell my students today, I said, “You know, don’t think you can’t do something. Because you can.” We didn’t know how to do it. So, your question was a good one: did I think we couldn’t do it? I think the answer to that is I didn’t really think about that. But when I think back now and try to teach my students, I do relate to that type of problem that, you know, you’re given a problem; and don’t think you can’t do it. Because you can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this a heady time for all of you? Or just a busy time? How do you recall it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.752842624770388, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was a busy time. In fact, it was so busy and I—it was so busy you really lost sight of what your family was doing. You really lost sight of what—you had to have a good home life, because you had to have somebody there to take care of the children and be patient with you. But you really were dedicated with your work, almost 24 hours a day. You were—you didn’t mind working around the clock, coming in Saturdays and Sundays, because you knew that what you were doing was really something that everybody wanted and you were interested. And the question you asked (I’ll go back to it; it was a key one): could you really do it? After it was done, after we had accomplished it, then I started thinking: could we really do it? I mean—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your initial job, I think, was a structures and materials engineer. What does that mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was really working in the—when I first got to NASA, I was working in the structures group which was looking at the thermal protection system, the heatshield, for the Apollo vehicle. So, I was working on the heatshield, which is—was the ablative material built by—made by AVCO Corporation, which is with the heatshield to go on the outside of the Apollo spacecraft for reentry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there again, we’re breaking new ground."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Breaking new ground. You know, very new ground. The aerodynamic heating, how did you calculate the aerodynamic heating? How did you attach—what kind of material did you use? What—how did you test the material? How did you attach it? So, it was all very, very new and very different. But I don’t think we really thought we couldn’t do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is 1962, and somewhere about that time you transferred to the Apollo Spacecraft Program—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 25.620793363914057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Breaking new ground. You know, very new ground. The aerodynamic heating, how did you calculate the aerodynamic heating? How did you attach—what kind of material did you use? What—how did you test the material? How did you attach it? So, it was all very, very new and very different. But I don’t think we really thought we couldn’t do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is 1962, and somewhere about that time you transferred to the Apollo Spacecraft Program—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Program Office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What led to that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 26.245325959904505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Program Office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What led to that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really wanted to get in more directly into the guidance and navigation control area. As I said, at General Dynamics I had a little bit of aerodynamic heating and a little bit of guidance, navigation, and control; and I was really more interested in the guidance, navigation, and control. And my entrée to that was to work in the Apollo Program Office, which basically was doing the guidance, navigation, and control and, at that time, working with the MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) Instrumentation Laboratory. And I was—I got involved with working with MIT Instrumentation Lab on the guidance, navigation, and control system. And that was really my desire. That really was what I really wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The pat question that’s written down here seems all too simple. It’s got to be more complex than this. But, what were the challenges in developing [a] control and navigation system in those days of spaceflight? I mean we could take the whole 90 minutes for that I suppose."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.0070506933463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—it’s not—it has—your PC at home is much, much more powerful than that little computer we used. And it was a wire rope memory, where you actually had to—actually wire the zeros and ones in that made up the computer memory months before you decided to fly. And we had a little bit of erasable memory. So, it was a—to me, it was one of the big achievements. And really it was the forerunner, in all honesty, of many of the things we’re doing today, both in spaceflight, aircraft flight, and commercial uses of computers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were working on that, Mercury and then Gemini were going on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you learning things from them or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, we—I tell you what. And I guess—I was really not involved in the Mercury Program or the Gemini Program. The big offshoot of those two programs, though, were primarily, especially in the Gemini, was learning how to do rendezvous. Rendezvous, that was one thing. And, of course, how to really design your electrical power system with fuel cells and your environmental control system. So, those were the helps that those programs gave us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you change jobs? Why were you promoted to Technical Assistant to the Chief of Systems Engineering Division? What does that mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.651959599674285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“—the service module, the lunar module, the launch complex, all the hardware that went in it?” And it’s very complicated, because interface control documents cannot be developed until you design. You can’t design until you have the interfaces defined. So, I was given the job to resolve the interfaces; and that was probably one of the biggest jobs and one of the best jobs and one of the most important jobs I ever had. And I was—I mean, at that point in time I didn’t recognize the significance of it. But if you couldn’t resolve those interfaces, you couldn’t put the vehicle—I think there was like 1200 interface documents to resolve."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does this mean you’re running interference between all these contractors, trying to get—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the contractors, all the—between Marshall [Spaceflight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], Kennedy [Space Center, Florida], and all the contractors. We were trying to put the thing together so we could actually bolt things together, have wire runs complete, have the functions complete. The interfaces are electrical interfaces, mechanical interfaces, functional interfaces. They all have to fit. And you have to do that before you can build a vehicle. And they have to be resolved; so one person knows what has to go on each side of the interface so they can design it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the contractors have trouble getting together on this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah! And one person’s got something designed. Another’s got something designed. And as simple as a bolt hole pattern, wouldn’t work. I’ll give you an example: If you go to change a tire and if your tire doesn’t fit on the rim—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re in trouble."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.854271110708993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah! And one person’s got something designed. Another’s got something designed. And as simple as a bolt hole pattern, wouldn’t work. I’ll give you an example: If you go to change a tire and if your tire doesn’t fit on the rim—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re in trouble."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that’s a simple interface."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, all these interfaces had to work. And—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, how’d you ever get them—?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.171412345232213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that’s a simple interface."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, all these interfaces had to work. And—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, how’d you ever get them—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s an interesting story. They gave me about 10 people. We had about 1200 interface control documents, and we had to get them resolved or we weren’t going to get the [Apollo] off the ground. So, you know, that was a very, very important part of it. So, Joe Shea—in fact, I remember Joe Shea taking me to Marshall Space Flight Center, and he took me to see von Braun. He introduced me to von Braun, and he said, “This is Aaron Cohen. He’s going to resolve all the interfaces.” And of course, I felt very, very good about that until von Braun says, “What’s an interface?” So, I knew then I had a little problem with it! But the way we did it is, we identified all the interfaces. And then I had a big meeting at Cape Kennedy. I got—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got all the contracts—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.412680383591347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, all these interfaces had to work. And—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, how’d you ever get them—?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s an interesting story. They gave me about 10 people. We had about 1200 interface control documents, and we had to get them resolved or we weren’t going to get the [Apollo] off the ground. So, you know, that was a very, very important part of it. So, Joe Shea—in fact, I remember Joe Shea taking me to Marshall Space Flight Center, and he took me to see von Braun. He introduced me to von Braun, and he said, “This is Aaron Cohen. He’s going to resolve all the interfaces.” And of course, I felt very, very good about that until von Braun says, “What’s an interface?” So, I knew then I had a little problem with it! But the way we did it is, we identified all the interfaces. And then I had a big meeting at Cape Kennedy. I got—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got all the contracts—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—all the contracts together in the big firing room. And I said, “We’re going to stay—” and we broke down into teams, and I said, “We’re going to stay here until we get all the interfaces resolved.” Well, of course, that was an overstatement because there was no way you were going to do that in one meeting. But at least—we stayed there about a week, and at least we got them all defined and found out what the issues were so everybody knew what they had to go back and work on. And then we periodically had a meeting; and I guess that over a period of 4 to 5 months, we were able to resolve it. And that to me was one of the biggest achievements I think I made and one of the biggest contributions I made to the space program in getting the interface—not many people really recognize the significance of it. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the mythology always is that everybody was in lockstep. That everybody was doing exactly what they were supposed to do."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.791867092879274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s an interesting story. They gave me about 10 people. We had about 1200 interface control documents, and we had to get them resolved or we weren’t going to get the [Apollo] off the ground. So, you know, that was a very, very important part of it. So, Joe Shea—in fact, I remember Joe Shea taking me to Marshall Space Flight Center, and he took me to see von Braun. He introduced me to von Braun, and he said, “This is Aaron Cohen. He’s going to resolve all the interfaces.” And of course, I felt very, very good about that until von Braun says, “What’s an interface?” So, I knew then I had a little problem with it! But the way we did it is, we identified all the interfaces. And then I had a big meeting at Cape Kennedy. I got—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got all the contracts—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—all the contracts together in the big firing room. And I said, “We’re going to stay—” and we broke down into teams, and I said, “We’re going to stay here until we get all the interfaces resolved.” Well, of course, that was an overstatement because there was no way you were going to do that in one meeting. But at least—we stayed there about a week, and at least we got them all defined and found out what the issues were so everybody knew what they had to go back and work on. And then we periodically had a meeting; and I guess that over a period of 4 to 5 months, we were able to resolve it. And that to me was one of the biggest achievements I think I made and one of the biggest contributions I made to the space program in getting the interface—not many people really recognize the significance of it. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the mythology always is that everybody was in lockstep. That everybody was doing exactly what they were supposed to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In fact, they were not."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.026996410962067, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In fact, they were not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were not. And not by any maliciousness. It’s just that—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—people were going off and doing their own thing, and somebody had to bring it together so that when this bolt hole pattern was made, the other person’s bolt hole pattern would meet that so you could bolt them together. That’s as simple as the electric wire—the wire runs and how you’d bolt the lunar module to the command and service module, and so forth and so on. The launch vehicle. So, that was, to me, the—one of the—I was very young at the time, but it—to me, it was one of the highlights of my career. From going from the guidance and navigation. So, we went from microwave ovens to color television to guidance and navigation and control to interface documents on the Apollo vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There again, nobody told you couldn’t do it. So, you did it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.918884901068964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were not. And not by any maliciousness. It’s just that—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—people were going off and doing their own thing, and somebody had to bring it together so that when this bolt hole pattern was made, the other person’s bolt hole pattern would meet that so you could bolt them together. That’s as simple as the electric wire—the wire runs and how you’d bolt the lunar module to the command and service module, and so forth and so on. The launch vehicle. So, that was, to me, the—one of the—I was very young at the time, but it—to me, it was one of the highlights of my career. From going from the guidance and navigation. So, we went from microwave ovens to color television to guidance and navigation and control to interface documents on the Apollo vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There again, nobody told you couldn’t do it. So, you did it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. And we did it in about the time schedule they gave us, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there—speaking of time schedule. Was there a feeling of tremendous pressure on everyone at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.576538778965514, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—people were going off and doing their own thing, and somebody had to bring it together so that when this bolt hole pattern was made, the other person’s bolt hole pattern would meet that so you could bolt them together. That’s as simple as the electric wire—the wire runs and how you’d bolt the lunar module to the command and service module, and so forth and so on. The launch vehicle. So, that was, to me, the—one of the—I was very young at the time, but it—to me, it was one of the highlights of my career. From going from the guidance and navigation. So, we went from microwave ovens to color television to guidance and navigation and control to interface documents on the Apollo vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There again, nobody told you couldn’t do it. So, you did it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. And we did it in about the time schedule they gave us, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there—speaking of time schedule. Was there a feeling of tremendous pressure on everyone at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there was, yes. I think time was really—I think your—I keep going back to your question: did we think we couldn’t do it? I don’t think technically, even though we didn’t know exactly what we were doing,—I don’t think technically we really had an issue. I think the time was really the thing that was bothering us the most. And I think that’s where people like George [M.] Low—then when George Low came in and Chris Kraft came in and George [E.] Mueller really made that schedule happen in my mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is a question about hardware or software, which was the most difficult to work out?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.45715406030408, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the onboard system, yes, they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did the other people who were also building components get in—try to get into the guidance business as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the guidance business was composed of the following: MIT at first was the major integrating contractor and did the software and designed the inertial measurement unit and the optical system and the computer. But as we went along, we found that MIT probably—it was too big a job for MIT to produce anything. So, we gave the job really to AC Spark Plug [Division of General Motors Corporation] at the time, which became more the integrating contractor for the guidance, navigation, and control system; and they actually did the production build of the inertial measurement unit. Raytheon [Company] built the computer; and Kollsman Instruments [Corporation] built the optical system; and MIT did all the software. And it basically was put together by AC Spark Plug. So, that’s how it was really done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do the American people realize that AC Spark Plug built that thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. But that was part of General Motors at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I understand."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.2857267336712, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the guidance business was composed of the following: MIT at first was the major integrating contractor and did the software and designed the inertial measurement unit and the optical system and the computer. But as we went along, we found that MIT probably—it was too big a job for MIT to produce anything. So, we gave the job really to AC Spark Plug [Division of General Motors Corporation] at the time, which became more the integrating contractor for the guidance, navigation, and control system; and they actually did the production build of the inertial measurement unit. Raytheon [Company] built the computer; and Kollsman Instruments [Corporation] built the optical system; and MIT did all the software. And it basically was put together by AC Spark Plug. So, that’s how it was really done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do the American people realize that AC Spark Plug built that thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. But that was part of General Motors at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I understand."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it just seems funny to say, well, AC Spark Plug—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.317474148523555, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. But that was part of General Motors at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I understand."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it just seems funny to say, well, AC Spark Plug—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—is going to take care of that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.84873351669575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—is going to take care of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We called it “AC Spark Plug,” and it was really a—of course, it was part of General Dynamics at the—General—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "General Motors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Motors, excuse me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your impressions of the people you worked with at the MIT Instrumentation Lab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.943037240773055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We called it “AC Spark Plug,” and it was really a—of course, it was part of General Dynamics at the—General—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "General Motors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Motors, excuse me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your impressions of the people you worked with at the MIT Instrumentation Lab?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, I’ve got the highest regard for them. I really feel that the people at the MIT in the guidance and navigation were one of the key people in getting the Apollo Program accomplished. Dick Battin and those people, Norm Seers, Phil Felleman, Milt [Milton B.] Trageser, Ralph [R.] Ragan, all those people to me were really key. And they had a lot of lot of their expertise came from graduates of MIT right into the Instrumentation Lab. And of course, the whole Dr. Draper activity of inertial guidance to me was very, very important. So, I have to give them a lot of credit. Now that’s my own personal feeling on it. I think that the MIT people really did a fantastic job for the space program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somewhere along the line, Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] is credited with saying, “I’m sitting on top of this thing, each part built by the lowest bidder.” I don’t know whether that’s his original line or not—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.270041378636726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Motors, excuse me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your impressions of the people you worked with at the MIT Instrumentation Lab?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, I’ve got the highest regard for them. I really feel that the people at the MIT in the guidance and navigation were one of the key people in getting the Apollo Program accomplished. Dick Battin and those people, Norm Seers, Phil Felleman, Milt [Milton B.] Trageser, Ralph [R.] Ragan, all those people to me were really key. And they had a lot of lot of their expertise came from graduates of MIT right into the Instrumentation Lab. And of course, the whole Dr. Draper activity of inertial guidance to me was very, very important. So, I have to give them a lot of credit. Now that’s my own personal feeling on it. I think that the MIT people really did a fantastic job for the space program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somewhere along the line, Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] is credited with saying, “I’m sitting on top of this thing, each part built by the lowest bidder.” I don’t know whether that’s his original line or not—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—or whether he stole it from somebody—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 25.855601531818586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, I’ve got the highest regard for them. I really feel that the people at the MIT in the guidance and navigation were one of the key people in getting the Apollo Program accomplished. Dick Battin and those people, Norm Seers, Phil Felleman, Milt [Milton B.] Trageser, Ralph [R.] Ragan, all those people to me were really key. And they had a lot of lot of their expertise came from graduates of MIT right into the Instrumentation Lab. And of course, the whole Dr. Draper activity of inertial guidance to me was very, very important. So, I have to give them a lot of credit. Now that’s my own personal feeling on it. I think that the MIT people really did a fantastic job for the space program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somewhere along the line, Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] is credited with saying, “I’m sitting on top of this thing, each part built by the lowest bidder.” I don’t know whether that’s his original line or not—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—or whether he stole it from somebody—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—but how bad is, in fact, what we’re talking about? How difficult was it to work with all of these people and keep them on track?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.665805571336657, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The dollars became much more significant. Time was really the constraint. Because if you listened to his need statement or his general requirement, “We’re going to send men to the Moon and return them safely at the decade,” he didn’t say anything about dollars. Now, dollars are always there. So, we had a number of reviews that tried to get the dollars back into a box; but, actually, we did have dollars to do the job for the Apollo Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody worried about the budget, is that what you're telling me?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t say that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t say that. No, they were worried about the budget because they had a constraint. But the dollars were there to do the job. And we still had to go explain why we were spending money, how we were spending money. But the dollars were easier during the Apollo Program than they were during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1966, you became the Assistant Chief of the Systems Engineering Division. What were your responsibilities there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.295339523707397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t say that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t say that. No, they were worried about the budget because they had a constraint. But the dollars were there to do the job. And we still had to go explain why we were spending money, how we were spending money. But the dollars were easier during the Apollo Program than they were during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1966, you became the Assistant Chief of the Systems Engineering Division. What were your responsibilities there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was the systems engineering organization was the organization to basically do all the systems aspects of it; to be sure, again, that everything played together and that we were ready to go to checkout and deliver the vehicle. So, my job was to be sure that all the analysis was completed, all the systems; when we looked at the structural analysis, the thermal analysis, all the detailed guidance analysis, that it all played together. And that was my job in that organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You set up a flight readiness review program—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.994821693008219, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t say that. No, they were worried about the budget because they had a constraint. But the dollars were there to do the job. And we still had to go explain why we were spending money, how we were spending money. But the dollars were easier during the Apollo Program than they were during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1966, you became the Assistant Chief of the Systems Engineering Division. What were your responsibilities there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was the systems engineering organization was the organization to basically do all the systems aspects of it; to be sure, again, that everything played together and that we were ready to go to checkout and deliver the vehicle. So, my job was to be sure that all the analysis was completed, all the systems; when we looked at the structural analysis, the thermal analysis, all the detailed guidance analysis, that it all played together. And that was my job in that organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You set up a flight readiness review program—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Flight readiness review."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—at that time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.660912992231354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was the systems engineering organization was the organization to basically do all the systems aspects of it; to be sure, again, that everything played together and that we were ready to go to checkout and deliver the vehicle. So, my job was to be sure that all the analysis was completed, all the systems; when we looked at the structural analysis, the thermal analysis, all the detailed guidance analysis, that it all played together. And that was my job in that organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You set up a flight readiness review program—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Flight readiness review."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—at that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a flight—we did what we called an FRR (flight readiness review). First we did a—first we—of course, we did a critical design review. Then we did a flight readiness review for each mission, and we had 2 weeks to get the vehicle through that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was a customer’s acceptance review?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.401014435812615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Flight readiness review."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—at that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a flight—we did what we called an FRR (flight readiness review). First we did a—first we—of course, we did a critical design review. Then we did a flight readiness review for each mission, and we had 2 weeks to get the vehicle through that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was a customer’s acceptance review?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Customer’s acceptance review is when you basically get together and go through all the documents and look at all the designs and be sure the design meets your specifications. And you essentially buy off on the vehicle. The customer, which is NASA in this case, basically buys off the vehicle from the builder of it. So, you look at basically what they’ve accomplished and what your requirements were. And you buy off the vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point, you—you’re—everything’s on schedule—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.223349373125128, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a flight—we did what we called an FRR (flight readiness review). First we did a—first we—of course, we did a critical design review. Then we did a flight readiness review for each mission, and we had 2 weeks to get the vehicle through that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was a customer’s acceptance review?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Customer’s acceptance review is when you basically get together and go through all the documents and look at all the designs and be sure the design meets your specifications. And you essentially buy off on the vehicle. The customer, which is NASA in this case, basically buys off the vehicle from the builder of it. So, you look at basically what they’ve accomplished and what your requirements were. And you buy off the vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point, you—you’re—everything’s on schedule—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—going along. Then there’s that tragic fire. And everything comes to a grinding halt. Where did you hear about the fire?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.425719304698391, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was interesting. If I go back and think about it, they were doing a countdown demonstration test, and I was listening to the—I can’t remember if I was listening to the results—or listening to the test, or was in a room where we were getting the results. And I think, in all honesty at the time when I think back on it—and, of course, sometimes your memories become a little bit—I think George [W. S.] Abbey and I, who’s now the current Center Director, were in a room together. George and I were listening to the results together at the time. And we—something went awry. Something went wrong. We didn’t know exactly what because we couldn’t tell. But that’s our first indication. And, of course, we got a later report. I was in Houston [Texas] at the time—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—I was in Houston listening to it on a hookup—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—in a—actually, I wasn’t in the—even in the Control Center. I think we were in an office. I think we were just in an office listening to—because it was a fairly routine test. I mean, you know, we didn’t really think that it was going to be a, you know—a countdown demonstration test is not a significant test. It’s a minor test in many people’s minds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I recall, the next day there was a deep, dark, black cloud over NASA. Everybody just—it was awful. Not just the loss of those three men but what the future might hold for the whole program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.139688116331546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—I was in Houston listening to it on a hookup—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—in a—actually, I wasn’t in the—even in the Control Center. I think we were in an office. I think we were just in an office listening to—because it was a fairly routine test. I mean, you know, we didn’t really think that it was going to be a, you know—a countdown demonstration test is not a significant test. It’s a minor test in many people’s minds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I recall, the next day there was a deep, dark, black cloud over NASA. Everybody just—it was awful. Not just the loss of those three men but what the future might hold for the whole program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, that’s right. And, of course, there was a lot of uncertainty. A lot of “Why did it happen? How did it happen?” And then, of course, then you go through that investigation, which is very traumatic, and you find the results. Then you go through what corrective actions you have to take. The thing that’s interesting, though, is that there were black clouds; but people did feel very motivated to fix the problem and continue on. And there was no question about the fact that we wanted to fix the problem and continue on. The astronauts, the management, and the country—the Congress and the country—wanted to fix the problem and move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Frank Borman called you and said, “I want you on the Tiger Team.” (I don’t know whether he called you or not.) But when you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.93298679592394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—in a—actually, I wasn’t in the—even in the Control Center. I think we were in an office. I think we were just in an office listening to—because it was a fairly routine test. I mean, you know, we didn’t really think that it was going to be a, you know—a countdown demonstration test is not a significant test. It’s a minor test in many people’s minds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I recall, the next day there was a deep, dark, black cloud over NASA. Everybody just—it was awful. Not just the loss of those three men but what the future might hold for the whole program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, that’s right. And, of course, there was a lot of uncertainty. A lot of “Why did it happen? How did it happen?” And then, of course, then you go through that investigation, which is very traumatic, and you find the results. Then you go through what corrective actions you have to take. The thing that’s interesting, though, is that there were black clouds; but people did feel very motivated to fix the problem and continue on. And there was no question about the fact that we wanted to fix the problem and continue on. The astronauts, the management, and the country—the Congress and the country—wanted to fix the problem and move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Frank Borman called you and said, “I want you on the Tiger Team.” (I don’t know whether he called you or not.) But when you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—how did you feel?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.647444164504718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I felt very good. Actually it was George Low who called me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "George Low who called me. It was—Frank was actually—George Low actually set up the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, of course, I was elated to do it because I felt it was a way that I could really get involved in getting the vehicle ready to fly again. And that’s what I felt was important, is to get the vehicle ready to fly again. So, I was elated in some respects. I was a little bit—then I really felt the problem that you asked me: could you do it? I was really concerned: could we really get the vehicle ready to fly again? Because it was so important, and we had to overcome all the issues that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At Downey [California—the North American plant], things—there really was a black cloud over things at Downey, were there not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.719382405005241, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "George Low who called me. It was—Frank was actually—George Low actually set up the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, of course, I was elated to do it because I felt it was a way that I could really get involved in getting the vehicle ready to fly again. And that’s what I felt was important, is to get the vehicle ready to fly again. So, I was elated in some respects. I was a little bit—then I really felt the problem that you asked me: could you do it? I was really concerned: could we really get the vehicle ready to fly again? Because it was so important, and we had to overcome all the issues that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At Downey [California—the North American plant], things—there really was a black cloud over things at Downey, were there not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was. Yes, there was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me what that was like."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.233805438278075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was. Yes, there was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me what that was like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the issue—unfortunately, whenever you have an accident or a bad problem, you go through the fact of: what happened? Why did it happen? And then unfortunately you start thinking: whose fault was it—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—this thing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fingers start being pointed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.355594327508113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whose fault was it? Why did this happen? Why did that happen?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that is really the—something you have to overcome before you can really get going again. Once you get going, though, you forget that part of it. And so, we got over that pretty quick. The team—I think that’s where the team was really important. With Frank Borman’s charisma, with his dedication, with his can-do attitude, him being out there overcame that problem. I think that, in my mind, was the biggest thing that Frank was able to do, which was monumental. He already—he was able to focus on the fact we wanted to get this thing flying again. He had a team to do it. He wanted—we needed Rockwell to do it. Or North American Aviation at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We needed North American to do it, and so Frank saw that. And he had the blessings of George Low and Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth to get that done. And so, with Frank as the leader, I think we were able to accomplish that. So, that was the big thing, was to overcome this finger-pointing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You started, though, at ground zero all over again—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.061771475009014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that is really the—something you have to overcome before you can really get going again. Once you get going, though, you forget that part of it. And so, we got over that pretty quick. The team—I think that’s where the team was really important. With Frank Borman’s charisma, with his dedication, with his can-do attitude, him being out there overcame that problem. I think that, in my mind, was the biggest thing that Frank was able to do, which was monumental. He already—he was able to focus on the fact we wanted to get this thing flying again. He had a team to do it. He wanted—we needed Rockwell to do it. Or North American Aviation at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We needed North American to do it, and so Frank saw that. And he had the blessings of George Low and Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth to get that done. And so, with Frank as the leader, I think we were able to accomplish that. So, that was the big thing, was to overcome this finger-pointing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You started, though, at ground zero all over again—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and rewired that thing, reconfigured it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.624190527787793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We needed North American to do it, and so Frank saw that. And he had the blessings of George Low and Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth to get that done. And so, with Frank as the leader, I think we were able to accomplish that. So, that was the big thing, was to overcome this finger-pointing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You started, though, at ground zero all over again—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and rewired that thing, reconfigured it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in fact we did even more than that. What we did is, we started and we went through system by system, subsystem by subsystem, system by system, to find out, even if it had nothing—not a thing to do with the failure, we went through each point and tried to see what type of corrective action did we have to take to fix it so it was as good as possible. Now, in later years, I found out after the Challenger [51-L] accident there’s a saying that “A ship in the harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships are built for.” So, you could not make this perfect. And we knew we couldn’t make it perfect. But we certainly could make it better than it was within the time, money, and schedule and dollars constraints we had, and make it essentially safer. And we did do that. But we went through every system, point by point. And that’s where George Low had meeting after meeting, where we—each person brought up issues they had. The flight control people did, the engineering people did, the contractors did, and we addressed each problem. We didn’t fix everything everybody wanted us to fix. But we—but when we didn’t do it, we let them know why we weren’t doing it and then the job we really had in the [time] was to get those things implemented and get the spacecraft built again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about how the decision was made on the oxygen blend."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.688875895456505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in fact I was out at Downey during that time with the Borman team and I got a call from George Low. And he said that “The testing’s that being done by Max [Maxime A.] Faget’s people with the materials we have will not allow us to use the oxygen atmosphere we have. So, we need to—there is no materials that will be self-extinguishing.” That was a criteria. The materials that, once ignited, had to be self-extinguishing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, of course, what is a fire? A fire is oxygen; it’s fuel, which is material; and it’s some type of ignition source. In fact, this room right now has ignition sources in it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it has a fire—but in a spacecraft where you 100% oxygen and you have electrical wiring and you have a fuel, such as even metal, you’ve got to do something to correct it. And they couldn’t find any way out. So, he said, “Would you please—would you take it—I want you to have a design team and come up with what you could do.” So, I had a design team that was one person from Rockwell, Dave [David S.] Levine, John Zacarro was on the team, Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin, who was a medical team and later became an astronaut for Skylab, and myself. [We] actually went about seeing what we could do, and we came up with a 60% oxygen, 40% nitrogen on the pad, which in testing the materials became self-—could itself self-extinguish—the materials were self-extinguishing. And we started that out at 14.7 psi. Now the next thing we had to do was figure out how we could get this back to 100% oxygen—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Get rid of it, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.492439377106797, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it has a fire—but in a spacecraft where you 100% oxygen and you have electrical wiring and you have a fuel, such as even metal, you’ve got to do something to correct it. And they couldn’t find any way out. So, he said, “Would you please—would you take it—I want you to have a design team and come up with what you could do.” So, I had a design team that was one person from Rockwell, Dave [David S.] Levine, John Zacarro was on the team, Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin, who was a medical team and later became an astronaut for Skylab, and myself. [We] actually went about seeing what we could do, and we came up with a 60% oxygen, 40% nitrogen on the pad, which in testing the materials became self-—could itself self-extinguish—the materials were self-extinguishing. And we started that out at 14.7 psi. Now the next thing we had to do was figure out how we could get this back to 100% oxygen—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Get rid of it, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—at a reduced pressure, and without tearing the vehicle apart. And we found, interestingly enough, a penetration of the vehicle that had a nozzle on it, and you could open the nozzle. The nozzle was very much like your garden faucet. You could turn it. You could put a—essentially a fixed penetration of the vehicle, so we could vent it down and then have the regulator—oxygen regulator resupply the oxygen. So, by the time we got on orbit, we were at 5 psi, 100% oxygen, which also was self-extinguishing. So, we were able to do it without any changes to hardware or software; it was just procedures. And, of course, that was a really an interesting way. And they flew every mission that way. They flew every mission that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But had it not been for that fire, you never would have figured that out—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and the fire was just an accident waiting to happen—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.547154863451995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—at a reduced pressure, and without tearing the vehicle apart. And we found, interestingly enough, a penetration of the vehicle that had a nozzle on it, and you could open the nozzle. The nozzle was very much like your garden faucet. You could turn it. You could put a—essentially a fixed penetration of the vehicle, so we could vent it down and then have the regulator—oxygen regulator resupply the oxygen. So, by the time we got on orbit, we were at 5 psi, 100% oxygen, which also was self-extinguishing. So, we were able to do it without any changes to hardware or software; it was just procedures. And, of course, that was a really an interesting way. And they flew every mission that way. They flew every mission that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But had it not been for that fire, you never would have figured that out—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and the fire was just an accident waiting to happen—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—somewhere, was it not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.786610942533326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—somewhere, was it not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, that’s right. And there are a lot of reasons for it. People have varied reasons. But we were 100% oxygen at 16 psi. You can go back in history why we were at that way. There were reasons why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whether they were right or wrong, there were reasons why we got to that point, which obviously was not the right place to be in hindsight. But it’s like many things, you can correct things in hindsight that you couldn’t do beforehand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take you to 1968 and you’re the Chief of the Command and Service Modules Project, Engineering Division."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.096234380592584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, that’s right. And there are a lot of reasons for it. People have varied reasons. But we were 100% oxygen at 16 psi. You can go back in history why we were at that way. There were reasons why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whether they were right or wrong, there were reasons why we got to that point, which obviously was not the right place to be in hindsight. But it’s like many things, you can correct things in hindsight that you couldn’t do beforehand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take you to 1968 and you’re the Chief of the Command and Service Modules Project, Engineering Division."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.329149311769537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whether they were right or wrong, there were reasons why we got to that point, which obviously was not the right place to be in hindsight. But it’s like many things, you can correct things in hindsight that you couldn’t do beforehand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take you to 1968 and you’re the Chief of the Command and Service Modules Project, Engineering Division."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s getting each vehicle—it means getting each command and service module ready to fly. So, we would get each vehicle from Downey; ship the command and service module from Downey to the Cape; and then once at the Cape, get it ready to fly. And then once it’s flown, you get the next one ready. So, our job was to—and then actually take it through the flight readiness reviews. Take—to take each vehicle through the flight readiness reviews. So, that was the job. That was a (you might say) was a detailed engineering job but more of an operational engineering job of getting a designed vehicle ready to fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have some friends who work at NASA who swear to me they never read the paper and there was no race with the Russians involved anywhere. They were racing with themselves doing all sorts of things. But all of a sudden, were you one of those people who’s looking at the paper and wondering what the Russians are doing or not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 13.69905479085504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s getting each vehicle—it means getting each command and service module ready to fly. So, we would get each vehicle from Downey; ship the command and service module from Downey to the Cape; and then once at the Cape, get it ready to fly. And then once it’s flown, you get the next one ready. So, our job was to—and then actually take it through the flight readiness reviews. Take—to take each vehicle through the flight readiness reviews. So, that was the job. That was a (you might say) was a detailed engineering job but more of an operational engineering job of getting a designed vehicle ready to fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have some friends who work at NASA who swear to me they never read the paper and there was no race with the Russians involved anywhere. They were racing with themselves doing all sorts of things. But all of a sudden, were you one of those people who’s looking at the paper and wondering what the Russians are doing or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I’m not sure I really was at the time. I guess I was so busy doing what I was doing that I’m not sure I really paid too much attention to it, although probably more than I recognized. But I really wasn’t paying too much attention to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, were you taken aback when someone calls you in and says, “[Apollo] 8’s going to do—”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.686259397736688, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My wife didn’t. But I have the signature. We delivered it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you know, as you type up the report and you and your wife took it over to Mr. Low—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—no question in your mind that it could be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No question. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Never looked back?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.390443700909492, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No question. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Never looked back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never looked back. I felt it was—that was what it was designed to do, and there was no reason to feel that the design wouldn’t work on all the systems we had, including the guidance and navigation system. I remember the one issue Frank had. You know, we changed—one of the big changes after the fire, which we didn’t talk about, was the fact from an inward opening hatch to an outward opening hatch. Because Apollo had—on the fire had an inward opening hatch—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—primarily because of Gus Grissom’s flight [Mercury-Redstone 4, Liberty Bell 7], which caused the outward opening hatch to cause the failure. So, we went back to an outward opening hatch. It turns out, on the pad, you’re safer with an outward opening hatch for escape; but in space, you’re safer with an inward opening hatch because the pressure tends—the pressure inside is higher than outside and it tends to seal. And an outward opening hatch, it tends to want to blow it open. And that was Frank—one of Frank Borman’s biggest issues. He wanted us to be sure that thing wouldn’t open on him. And it was designed like a vault anyway, so it wasn’t going to open. But that was his biggest issue, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Around you other people at NASA, as I recall, seemed to be terribly surprised that things were moving at this kind of Mach speed, that you were going to do—that 8 was going to do what they thought 9 or 10 was going to do."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.211604112121657, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never looked back. I felt it was—that was what it was designed to do, and there was no reason to feel that the design wouldn’t work on all the systems we had, including the guidance and navigation system. I remember the one issue Frank had. You know, we changed—one of the big changes after the fire, which we didn’t talk about, was the fact from an inward opening hatch to an outward opening hatch. Because Apollo had—on the fire had an inward opening hatch—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—primarily because of Gus Grissom’s flight [Mercury-Redstone 4, Liberty Bell 7], which caused the outward opening hatch to cause the failure. So, we went back to an outward opening hatch. It turns out, on the pad, you’re safer with an outward opening hatch for escape; but in space, you’re safer with an inward opening hatch because the pressure tends—the pressure inside is higher than outside and it tends to seal. And an outward opening hatch, it tends to want to blow it open. And that was Frank—one of Frank Borman’s biggest issues. He wanted us to be sure that thing wouldn’t open on him. And it was designed like a vault anyway, so it wasn’t going to open. But that was his biggest issue, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Around you other people at NASA, as I recall, seemed to be terribly surprised that things were moving at this kind of Mach speed, that you were going to do—that 8 was going to do what they thought 9 or 10 was going to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a lot of explaining to do to them, or—?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.798783793333506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was scary. Yeah, there was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the astronauts realize this was happening to them, too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they did. I think they knew that. And I think that’s of course where our good operations people came in. Because I think our operations capability with people like Glynn Lunney and Gene Kranz and Chris (at that time) were able to help resolve those operational issues even though the system—you know, I was more into the design part of it. They were more in the operations part of it, and I think—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that’s where it all came together really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember that Christmastime when 8 went around the Moon—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.665315325926118, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they did. I think they knew that. And I think that’s of course where our good operations people came in. Because I think our operations capability with people like Glynn Lunney and Gene Kranz and Chris (at that time) were able to help resolve those operational issues even though the system—you know, I was more into the design part of it. They were more in the operations part of it, and I think—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that’s where it all came together really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember that Christmastime when 8 went around the Moon—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and we lost them for a while?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.628128139917909, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that’s where it all came together really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember that Christmastime when 8 went around the Moon—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and we lost them for a while?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we didn’t know—I mean, I guess you knew they were going to come back the other side. But sheer mortals didn’t know it was going to come back."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.886577950515935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we didn’t know—I mean, I guess you knew they were going to come back the other side. But sheer mortals didn’t know it was going to come back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew they were. But it’s just—it’s no matter if you knew or not knew, you knew physically they could. But of course, whether the communication was going to come through was another question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, that was always a very tenuous time, when you’re behind the Moon. You can’t do much about it until you come to the other side, and you hope you’re going to re-contact with them. But, yes, it was very—I won’t say it was scary. But it was very tense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Apollo came home, did you feel like you had had done it all? I mean, that you’d done everything that they brought you to Houston to do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.985086611684372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew they were. But it’s just—it’s no matter if you knew or not knew, you knew physically they could. But of course, whether the communication was going to come through was another question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, that was always a very tenuous time, when you’re behind the Moon. You can’t do much about it until you come to the other side, and you hope you’re going to re-contact with them. But, yes, it was very—I won’t say it was scary. But it was very tense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Apollo came home, did you feel like you had had done it all? I mean, that you’d done everything that they brought you to Houston to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you mean Apollo 11 or Apollo 8?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, when 8 came home."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.0945406796493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, that was always a very tenuous time, when you’re behind the Moon. You can’t do much about it until you come to the other side, and you hope you’re going to re-contact with them. But, yes, it was very—I won’t say it was scary. But it was very tense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Apollo came home, did you feel like you had had done it all? I mean, that you’d done everything that they brought you to Houston to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you mean Apollo 11 or Apollo 8?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, when 8 came home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I—no. I still felt we had to do Apollo 11, and that’s really what we—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But from a guidance standpoint—."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.696963802036173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I—no. I still felt we had to do Apollo 11, and that’s really what we—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But from a guidance standpoint—."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From a guidance standpoint, we really did what we had to do. And from the heatshield—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—from the two things that I was really, you might say—from a subsystem point of view, interestingly we did, but you also have to recognize that then I became, as you pointed out, in my career—I became more involved with all of the systems. And so, I really—until the parachutes came out and the bags came out, and we got the crew out of the vehicle, it was not over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1968, you became the Chief of Command and Service Modules Project, Engineering Division."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.21884866892908, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From a guidance standpoint, we really did what we had to do. And from the heatshield—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—from the two things that I was really, you might say—from a subsystem point of view, interestingly we did, but you also have to recognize that then I became, as you pointed out, in my career—I became more involved with all of the systems. And so, I really—until the parachutes came out and the bags came out, and we got the crew out of the vehicle, it was not over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1968, you became the Chief of Command and Service Modules Project, Engineering Division."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.798720743254533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—from the two things that I was really, you might say—from a subsystem point of view, interestingly we did, but you also have to recognize that then I became, as you pointed out, in my career—I became more involved with all of the systems. And so, I really—until the parachutes came out and the bags came out, and we got the crew out of the vehicle, it was not over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1968, you became the Chief of Command and Service Modules Project, Engineering Division."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that meant that I really was doing the—almost the same thing, but just had the title, really is what that meant. I was really doing the same thing as I did in the Project Engineering Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then in [19]’70, you were the Manager, Command and Service Module."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.554134159171703, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that meant that I really was doing the—almost the same thing, but just had the title, really is what that meant. I was really doing the same thing as I did in the Project Engineering Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then in [19]’70, you were the Manager, Command and Service Module."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Service module, right. Then I took over the total job and that’s when I became manager of the total project, including the resources, the schedule, the resources, and the vehicle. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You are the manager of the command and service—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.50459351019078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that meant that I really was doing the—almost the same thing, but just had the title, really is what that meant. I was really doing the same thing as I did in the Project Engineering Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then in [19]’70, you were the Manager, Command and Service Module."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Service module, right. Then I took over the total job and that’s when I became manager of the total project, including the resources, the schedule, the resources, and the vehicle. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You are the manager of the command and service—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Service modules."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—modules for a program that is winding down."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.671770566878642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Service module, right. Then I took over the total job and that’s when I became manager of the total project, including the resources, the schedule, the resources, and the vehicle. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You are the manager of the command and service—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Service modules."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—modules for a program that is winding down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it difficult to keep the enthusiasm up after 11?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.079745074309603, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Service modules."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—modules for a program that is winding down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it difficult to keep the enthusiasm up after 11?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, no; it really wasn’t. I didn’t have that problem. I mean, I think the enthusiasm for Apollo was there. And I think people did recognize the significance of it. And I do think people knew that each step along the way was important. And I think George Low left us with a legacy of understanding the detail, working on the details, and paying attention to details. So, he taught us that. And with that type of a legacy, you pay attention to details. So, yes, I think it wasn’t hard to keep the people’s—at least I don’t think it was hard to keep people’s interest up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The day Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan took that last step on the Moon and started coming home, did you go home that night and say, “Well, you know, this—” I mean, did you feel the historic significance of this? Or did you think there would be lots of other people going back to the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 24.533050082566223, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it difficult to keep the enthusiasm up after 11?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, no; it really wasn’t. I didn’t have that problem. I mean, I think the enthusiasm for Apollo was there. And I think people did recognize the significance of it. And I do think people knew that each step along the way was important. And I think George Low left us with a legacy of understanding the detail, working on the details, and paying attention to details. So, he taught us that. And with that type of a legacy, you pay attention to details. So, yes, I think it wasn’t hard to keep the people’s—at least I don’t think it was hard to keep people’s interest up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The day Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan took that last step on the Moon and started coming home, did you go home that night and say, “Well, you know, this—” I mean, did you feel the historic significance of this? Or did you think there would be lots of other people going back to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I thought that—I thought we would have a continuation—not necessarily to the Moon, but some continuation. Although the Shuttle was in the horizon, and that’s where I was headed towards. Of course, we did have one—we did have this interruption of Apollo 13 in the middle of all that. And of course, that was an interesting story in my perspective of what happened on Apollo 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was—this is a stupid question. It was a surprise, obviously. But were you surprised that what happened to 13 could happen to 13?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.099241651596733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was. Of course now I’m responsible for the design, development, and operation of the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re going to start and build the whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We’re starting with a viewgraph. And we’re starting with all over building a Space Shuttle. And the Space Shuttle Orbiter was—is basically three systems. It’s basically a launch vehicle; it’s a spacecraft, because it stays; and it’s an airplane. So, you’re designing three systems in one. And in the system complexity, the Orbiter is so much more complex than the Apollo vehicle. I mean, it’s just—the mission is not as complex but the systems are so—I mean, it’s just a so much more complex. And at that time I also had the responsibility of the integration of the system. When we first started out, Bob [Robert F.] Thompson gave me the job of the Orbiter plus the integration, so I did have also the integration of the system engineering integration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is the lead Center management structure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the lead Center management structure is a way of managing the vehicle. And—when you have a very complicated system like the Shuttle and you have various centers operating it, you want to have some Center in charge, or you could have one—some Center in charge. The Johnson Space Center was given the lead Center, and systems engineering and integration was given to the Johnson Space Center; and that was under Bob Thompson. And then the Orbiter was responsible to Johnson Space Center. And the main engine and solid rocket boosters and tank was the responsibility of the Marshall Spaceflight Center. And then the launch was the responsibility of the Kennedy Space Center. And the lead Center was at the Johnson Space Center under Bob Thompson, which integrated that total activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they gave you this job, did they tell you they wanted a reusable Space Shuttle, as it were?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.110268501774147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We’re starting with a viewgraph. And we’re starting with all over building a Space Shuttle. And the Space Shuttle Orbiter was—is basically three systems. It’s basically a launch vehicle; it’s a spacecraft, because it stays; and it’s an airplane. So, you’re designing three systems in one. And in the system complexity, the Orbiter is so much more complex than the Apollo vehicle. I mean, it’s just—the mission is not as complex but the systems are so—I mean, it’s just a so much more complex. And at that time I also had the responsibility of the integration of the system. When we first started out, Bob [Robert F.] Thompson gave me the job of the Orbiter plus the integration, so I did have also the integration of the system engineering integration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is the lead Center management structure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the lead Center management structure is a way of managing the vehicle. And—when you have a very complicated system like the Shuttle and you have various centers operating it, you want to have some Center in charge, or you could have one—some Center in charge. The Johnson Space Center was given the lead Center, and systems engineering and integration was given to the Johnson Space Center; and that was under Bob Thompson. And then the Orbiter was responsible to Johnson Space Center. And the main engine and solid rocket boosters and tank was the responsibility of the Marshall Spaceflight Center. And then the launch was the responsibility of the Kennedy Space Center. And the lead Center was at the Johnson Space Center under Bob Thompson, which integrated that total activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they gave you this job, did they tell you they wanted a reusable Space Shuttle, as it were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did. They said they wanted a reusable Space Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why that instead of like what the Russians were doing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.481812965153267, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did. They said they wanted a reusable Space Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why that instead of like what the Russians were doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because the whole idea—the whole thought process that, in order to make spaceflight more economical—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—and more readily usable for commercial activities, you wanted something that could be reused time and time again and not throw away the expensive guidance and navigation system, environmental control system, for the basic structure. So, that’s why they wanted a reusable system. And I think in that context, the Shuttle has proved out to be very, very successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you one of those kind of people who sits around and doodles on a piece of yellow foolscap? Did you draw some designs of that just in your mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.424236627948074, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because the whole idea—the whole thought process that, in order to make spaceflight more economical—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—and more readily usable for commercial activities, you wanted something that could be reused time and time again and not throw away the expensive guidance and navigation system, environmental control system, for the basic structure. So, that’s why they wanted a reusable system. And I think in that context, the Shuttle has proved out to be very, very successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you one of those kind of people who sits around and doodles on a piece of yellow foolscap? Did you draw some designs of that just in your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I really didn’t. I—in all fairness, there were several configurations that came out of it that had been done previously, and we—I came in when—the point when we had proposals from the North American, Grumman, and Lockheed [Aircraft Corporation], and Martin [Marietta Aerospace] (at the time). And basically, all had had a very similar configuration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn’t they have big wings at one time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.634860034503793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I really didn’t. I—in all fairness, there were several configurations that came out of it that had been done previously, and we—I came in when—the point when we had proposals from the North American, Grumman, and Lockheed [Aircraft Corporation], and Martin [Marietta Aerospace] (at the time). And basically, all had had a very similar configuration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn’t they have big wings at one time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That—well, they had fly-back boosters, if that’s—they had fly-back boosters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the point there was that the fly-back booster—see, you had several problems with the Shuttle. Now you become very much—you have a cost constraint to get to the point that you—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No blank check this time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.81651114944866, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That—well, they had fly-back boosters, if that’s—they had fly-back boosters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the point there was that the fly-back booster—see, you had several problems with the Shuttle. Now you become very much—you have a cost constraint to get to the point that you—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No blank check this time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—no blank—it said, “You’re going to build a reusable system.” The need statement or the top requirement, “You’re going to build a reusable system,” and didn’t give us a time constraint on it, but that had to stay within a cost constraint of so many dollars in a given year. I think it was [19]’72 dollars. And—’72 year dollars, because we accounted for inflation. And so, you were fixed now. When we went to a fly-back booster, it—you went out of the development box. It became too expensive. So, that’s why we had to go without the big wings on the booster. And so, that’s why we gave up the total—the fly-back booster and stayed with the system you see today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about how much the Department of Defense [DoD] entered into this whole thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.018345721609622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the point there was that the fly-back booster—see, you had several problems with the Shuttle. Now you become very much—you have a cost constraint to get to the point that you—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No blank check this time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—no blank—it said, “You’re going to build a reusable system.” The need statement or the top requirement, “You’re going to build a reusable system,” and didn’t give us a time constraint on it, but that had to stay within a cost constraint of so many dollars in a given year. I think it was [19]’72 dollars. And—’72 year dollars, because we accounted for inflation. And so, you were fixed now. When we went to a fly-back booster, it—you went out of the development box. It became too expensive. So, that’s why we had to go without the big wings on the booster. And so, that’s why we gave up the total—the fly-back booster and stayed with the system you see today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about how much the Department of Defense [DoD] entered into this whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Department of Defense entered into several factors. They drove basically the size of the bay of the Shuttle, because they had some payloads they wanted to fly. So, they drove that. They made a very—and they also drove the amount of (I’ll use the term) cross-range. How much out-of-plane maneuvering the vehicle could take for purposes. And that drove the wings, the type of wings we had. So, when you look at what the Air Force really did, their requirements for—to satisfy the requirements drove those two things. And the Air Force was very, very important in helping get the Shuttle really sold to the government."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You built it to stay up for a month, I guess?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.38067373038225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Department of Defense entered into several factors. They drove basically the size of the bay of the Shuttle, because they had some payloads they wanted to fly. So, they drove that. They made a very—and they also drove the amount of (I’ll use the term) cross-range. How much out-of-plane maneuvering the vehicle could take for purposes. And that drove the wings, the type of wings we had. So, when you look at what the Air Force really did, their requirements for—to satisfy the requirements drove those two things. And the Air Force was very, very important in helping get the Shuttle really sold to the government."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You built it to stay up for a month, I guess?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the original requirement—the original requirement was for—let’s see. It was really a—what we called a 28-day mission—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—it was 4 people for 7 days. That’s a 28-day mission. And then later, it was stated that we wanted to be able to stay up for 30 days with the number of people. So, we really had a design that could do that, but we never really—and that sort of drove the problem. But, yes, that’s what we had, is the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, that one that’s flying right now is basically that same kind of design?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.645193033758057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the original requirement—the original requirement was for—let’s see. It was really a—what we called a 28-day mission—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—it was 4 people for 7 days. That’s a 28-day mission. And then later, it was stated that we wanted to be able to stay up for 30 days with the number of people. So, we really had a design that could do that, but we never really—and that sort of drove the problem. But, yes, that’s what we had, is the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, that one that’s flying right now is basically that same kind of design?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It’s basically the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they don’t stay up that long."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.050214481953397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—it was 4 people for 7 days. That’s a 28-day mission. And then later, it was stated that we wanted to be able to stay up for 30 days with the number of people. So, we really had a design that could do that, but we never really—and that sort of drove the problem. But, yes, that’s what we had, is the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, that one that’s flying right now is basically that same kind of design?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It’s basically the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they don’t stay up that long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they don’t stay—well, we really never did design—we never really did stay up 30 days. We never did really stay. The—they—it was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did you have to compromise the design because of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.27801609105933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It’s basically the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they don’t stay up that long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they don’t stay—well, we really never did design—we never really did stay up 30 days. We never did really stay. The—they—it was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did you have to compromise the design because of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, you had to compromise the design; but we—it was really, in all honesty,—it was more of a soft requirement. That was a soft requirement than a hard requirement. To see what you could get with a goal of 30 days. It was really never a hard requirement to make a 30-day mission. But actually, it’s done—it’s—we’ve had 7 people up for—we’ve sent 7 people up for 14 days, so that’s—let’s see, that’s 98 day—that’s a hundred—that’s a 100 man-day mission, you might say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said when it was designed, it was designed to be—or when it—when they started talking about it, it was going to be a reusable thing that would really make space travel efficient and inexpensive. And they were talking about sending up two or three of these things a month. Is that ever going to happen?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.338692411308228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—warp movement within the next 25 or 50 years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—well, I think so. If you look at 1903, the Wright brothers flew—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—their plane, and it was the length of the external tank. So, you know—so, and now we can fly—we can keep a vehicle in orbit for, as you point out, 30 days. And Space Station and actually send probes, unmanned probes, to Mars and Venus. And eventually, I think we will send human probe—or human vehicles to Mars—in, that’s what my students are working on—but we’ll send them back to the Moon and on to Mars. I’m convinced of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are the guidance problems solved? I mean, that part of the—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.154102679231364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—well, I think so. If you look at 1903, the Wright brothers flew—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—their plane, and it was the length of the external tank. So, you know—so, and now we can fly—we can keep a vehicle in orbit for, as you point out, 30 days. And Space Station and actually send probes, unmanned probes, to Mars and Venus. And eventually, I think we will send human probe—or human vehicles to Mars—in, that’s what my students are working on—but we’ll send them back to the Moon and on to Mars. I’m convinced of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are the guidance problems solved? I mean, that part of the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the guidance problems are solved. I don’t think that’s an issue. I think now the issues are more: can we make the propulsion systems more efficient? Can we make the structure more efficient? Those are the type of things. Can we get more efficient—really for interplanetary travel, can we have a closed-loop environmental control system so you can actually recycle all your waste products and that type of thing? So, you’re now looking for things like that. And can you take advantage of resources on other planets? Can you get propellant? Can you get oxygen out of the lunar soil or the Martian soil? These are the type of technologies that you’re looking for today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Space Shuttle design was an exercise in compromise, it has been said. In a perfect world, what would it have looked like?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.06011408803485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—their plane, and it was the length of the external tank. So, you know—so, and now we can fly—we can keep a vehicle in orbit for, as you point out, 30 days. And Space Station and actually send probes, unmanned probes, to Mars and Venus. And eventually, I think we will send human probe—or human vehicles to Mars—in, that’s what my students are working on—but we’ll send them back to the Moon and on to Mars. I’m convinced of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are the guidance problems solved? I mean, that part of the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the guidance problems are solved. I don’t think that’s an issue. I think now the issues are more: can we make the propulsion systems more efficient? Can we make the structure more efficient? Those are the type of things. Can we get more efficient—really for interplanetary travel, can we have a closed-loop environmental control system so you can actually recycle all your waste products and that type of thing? So, you’re now looking for things like that. And can you take advantage of resources on other planets? Can you get propellant? Can you get oxygen out of the lunar soil or the Martian soil? These are the type of technologies that you’re looking for today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Space Shuttle design was an exercise in compromise, it has been said. In a perfect world, what would it have looked like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you hadn’t had to make all those compromises?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.066793431149833, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the guidance problems are solved. I don’t think that’s an issue. I think now the issues are more: can we make the propulsion systems more efficient? Can we make the structure more efficient? Those are the type of things. Can we get more efficient—really for interplanetary travel, can we have a closed-loop environmental control system so you can actually recycle all your waste products and that type of thing? So, you’re now looking for things like that. And can you take advantage of resources on other planets? Can you get propellant? Can you get oxygen out of the lunar soil or the Martian soil? These are the type of technologies that you’re looking for today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Space Shuttle design was an exercise in compromise, it has been said. In a perfect world, what would it have looked like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you hadn’t had to make all those compromises?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—well, I think in the perfect world, in my mind, of course, I’m a—I sort of feel like the father of the Space Shuttle Orbiter, so I’m not going to be too critical of what my offspring—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You shouldn’t be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.074214923499813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you hadn’t had to make all those compromises?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—well, I think in the perfect world, in my mind, of course, I’m a—I sort of feel like the father of the Space Shuttle Orbiter, so I’m not going to be too critical of what my offspring—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You shouldn’t be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—looks like. But I do think if you—in a perfect world, you probably would have a fully reusable Shuttle. By that I mean, you wouldn’t have to throw away the external tanks or let the solid rocket boosters go, even though we recover them. You would have a fully reusable system. As you pointed out, you’d have more of a fly-back booster. That would be the perfect world. Of course, is the development cost—and that’s where they talk about the compromise. Is the development cost warranted in that in making up for what the operations—reduction in operations cost? So, how do you balance development cost to operations cost? And that’s what—that’s would be when they talk about compromises, that’s where the compromise is.\\n\\n Do I think that’s a major compromise? Probably no. I do think there are things we could’ve done better had we had some of the tools that our young engineers have today, such as computer-aided design systems, CADS systems, systems that are more automated in design processes rather than drawing on a drafting board and a T-square, as we did in the olden days. But that’s to me where you can make your benefit of it. And I think eventually it’ll come along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Has your baby been everything you thought it was going to be?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.461455610594271, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that—were you aware of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was. And, of course, that’s where we really coined that phrase “A ship in the harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships are built for.” My deputy—I became Center director about that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my deputy was a great guy named Paul [J.] Weitz. He was an astronaut. And Paul and I had the job of trying to figure out how we were going to get the astronauts and how we were going to get the [Johnson Space] Center going again. And I think when you really got down and started talking to people, they really wanted to fly again. The people at the Johnson Space Center really wanted to fly again. And that’s what the business we were in. And we felt we did have a mission to do. We did have satellites to put up. We did have research to do in orbit. We did have things that we felt were good for humankind that we could do in orbit that we couldn’t do on the ground, and that the Shuttle was the place to do it until we had a space station, until we could get a space station going. So, I think in that context, we were able to convince ourselves and we were able to convince the people at the Johnson Space Center. As a result, I think we were able to convince Congress and the public that was what we wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that must’ve been an extremely trying time because—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.290506233993634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was. And, of course, that’s where we really coined that phrase “A ship in the harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships are built for.” My deputy—I became Center director about that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my deputy was a great guy named Paul [J.] Weitz. He was an astronaut. And Paul and I had the job of trying to figure out how we were going to get the astronauts and how we were going to get the [Johnson Space] Center going again. And I think when you really got down and started talking to people, they really wanted to fly again. The people at the Johnson Space Center really wanted to fly again. And that’s what the business we were in. And we felt we did have a mission to do. We did have satellites to put up. We did have research to do in orbit. We did have things that we felt were good for humankind that we could do in orbit that we couldn’t do on the ground, and that the Shuttle was the place to do it until we had a space station, until we could get a space station going. So, I think in that context, we were able to convince ourselves and we were able to convince the people at the Johnson Space Center. As a result, I think we were able to convince Congress and the public that was what we wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that must’ve been an extremely trying time because—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very hard time. Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you had essentially two jobs. You had—you were in charge of rebuilding that Shuttle—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.21167359332626, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my deputy was a great guy named Paul [J.] Weitz. He was an astronaut. And Paul and I had the job of trying to figure out how we were going to get the astronauts and how we were going to get the [Johnson Space] Center going again. And I think when you really got down and started talking to people, they really wanted to fly again. The people at the Johnson Space Center really wanted to fly again. And that’s what the business we were in. And we felt we did have a mission to do. We did have satellites to put up. We did have research to do in orbit. We did have things that we felt were good for humankind that we could do in orbit that we couldn’t do on the ground, and that the Shuttle was the place to do it until we had a space station, until we could get a space station going. So, I think in that context, we were able to convince ourselves and we were able to convince the people at the Johnson Space Center. As a result, I think we were able to convince Congress and the public that was what we wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that must’ve been an extremely trying time because—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very hard time. Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you had essentially two jobs. You had—you were in charge of rebuilding that Shuttle—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and at the same time, you got a—you’ve got all these people whose heads are hanging low—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.235192881473623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very hard time. Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you had essentially two jobs. You had—you were in charge of rebuilding that Shuttle—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and at the same time, you got a—you’ve got all these people whose heads are hanging low—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and you’re trying to build them up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.372436534970692, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and at the same time, you got a—you’ve got all these people whose heads are hanging low—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and you’re trying to build them up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d you do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.63604059441188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and you’re trying to build them up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d you do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I really went back—what I did is I—again, I took the lessons from people I learned from, like George Mueller, George Low, Chris Kraft. And I took things—and Frank Borman—things that I learned from them, and I went back—I used the analogy very much to when a football team or a baseball team is having problems. You go back to your fundamentals. You go back to paying attention to details. What is your goals? What are you trying to do? How do you fix it? And we just went back paying attention to our details. Trying to see how we fix the things that were wrong and with a motive of how we got things going again. And as a result, everybody jumped in and we had teamwork again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you feel when the Shuttle flew again?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.040045104902088, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How’d you do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I really went back—what I did is I—again, I took the lessons from people I learned from, like George Mueller, George Low, Chris Kraft. And I took things—and Frank Borman—things that I learned from them, and I went back—I used the analogy very much to when a football team or a baseball team is having problems. You go back to your fundamentals. You go back to paying attention to details. What is your goals? What are you trying to do? How do you fix it? And we just went back paying attention to our details. Trying to see how we fix the things that were wrong and with a motive of how we got things going again. And as a result, everybody jumped in and we had teamwork again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you feel when the Shuttle flew again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was quite elated. I’ve got to be honest with you, that was very—that was probably the most nervous I’ve been in a long time. But we had a great crew and a great operations team. And I think—and a great contractor team that helped us get the vehicle ready to go again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things you did to stabilize the Center was have each directorate report directly to the head as opposed—tell me about that. Tell me about that organizational method you used."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.431816873815054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the standings are good. I think that the biggest problem NASA has is being able to explain what they’re doing to the lay person. In fact, a little history on that. And I got burned by that a little bit. The Greater Houston Partnership said, “Aaron, tell us why the—” And some very important people were there. “Tell us why the space program is important?” So, we put some documentaries together. And when you look at the documentaries, they look like a Ph.D. thesis. And so, I took that—I didn’t recognize that myself. And I took that to the Greater Houston Partnership, and they said, “This won’t help.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They said, “You’re talking to—you—you’ve got a Ph.D. thesis put together. You didn’t put together what the public needs to know.” And I think that’s probably one of the hardest thing for a technical organization such as NASA to do. They know so much technically and they’re concerned about how they—they’re concerned they don’t want to give you too much of a soft—of a hard sell, but as a result they tend to do it more technically and don’t—and do not communicate accurately with the lay person. I think that’s the hardest problem for us to do. The information we do have, the research we do, the knowledge we do is—the knowledge we have obtained for people is fantastic. And if we could only explain it to them a little better. It’s easier said than done. I mean, NASA tries to do it, but it’s easier said than done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s why they need to teach speech across the street over there as well as engineering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To understand—so you can understand those things."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.59090763757228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They said, “You’re talking to—you—you’ve got a Ph.D. thesis put together. You didn’t put together what the public needs to know.” And I think that’s probably one of the hardest thing for a technical organization such as NASA to do. They know so much technically and they’re concerned about how they—they’re concerned they don’t want to give you too much of a soft—of a hard sell, but as a result they tend to do it more technically and don’t—and do not communicate accurately with the lay person. I think that’s the hardest problem for us to do. The information we do have, the research we do, the knowledge we do is—the knowledge we have obtained for people is fantastic. And if we could only explain it to them a little better. It’s easier said than done. I mean, NASA tries to do it, but it’s easier said than done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s why they need to teach speech across the street over there as well as engineering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To understand—so you can understand those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But it’s—you know, it’s just very hard to do. It’s not easy to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 8—in 1989, you wrote the Report of the 90-Day Study on Human Exploration to the Moon and Mars."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.8787862639692, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To understand—so you can understand those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But it’s—you know, it’s just very hard to do. It’s not easy to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 8—in 1989, you wrote the Report of the 90-Day Study on Human Exploration to the Moon and Mars."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "10 years ago. What’s happening?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.31948921477679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "10 years ago. What’s happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think a lot’s happening. I’ve got to be honest with you: that was another great point in my career, to do that study. It turns out it was probably a little bit more expensive than people wanted it to be, so it didn’t go over too well. But in all fairness, I think it was better than people accepted. Because our—the way we costed it was really a long-range program that was going to do—it was where we were going to go back to the Moon, this time to stay, and on to Mars. That’s what President [George H. W.] Bush stated that we wanted to do. And when we priced that out, it became very expensive; but if you really looked at the missions, they weren’t that out of the ordinary when you compare it to the Apollo cost. I think the framework was good. I think there have been studies since then. I think the time probably was not right for it. I think there were other circumstances within the country, such as the problem with the monetary system in the Savings & Loan. So, I think things really weren’t right—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—for us to spend that money. But what’s happening is—I’ll tell you what’s happening under Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, which is very positive. We are sending robotic probes to Mars, to other planets. There are studies to see how you would send humans to other planets, essentially Mars. And I’m convinced that that report is a forerunner; and I’m convinced that all this will come to pass. I’m convinced that students of mine will—if they desire to become astronauts, will be able to walk on Mars. So, I’m convinced that is going to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Cohen, we probably would not have gone to the Moon when we did had there not been a Cold War going on that required—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.688321349751988, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think a lot’s happening. I’ve got to be honest with you: that was another great point in my career, to do that study. It turns out it was probably a little bit more expensive than people wanted it to be, so it didn’t go over too well. But in all fairness, I think it was better than people accepted. Because our—the way we costed it was really a long-range program that was going to do—it was where we were going to go back to the Moon, this time to stay, and on to Mars. That’s what President [George H. W.] Bush stated that we wanted to do. And when we priced that out, it became very expensive; but if you really looked at the missions, they weren’t that out of the ordinary when you compare it to the Apollo cost. I think the framework was good. I think there have been studies since then. I think the time probably was not right for it. I think there were other circumstances within the country, such as the problem with the monetary system in the Savings & Loan. So, I think things really weren’t right—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—for us to spend that money. But what’s happening is—I’ll tell you what’s happening under Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, which is very positive. We are sending robotic probes to Mars, to other planets. There are studies to see how you would send humans to other planets, essentially Mars. And I’m convinced that that report is a forerunner; and I’m convinced that all this will come to pass. I’m convinced that students of mine will—if they desire to become astronauts, will be able to walk on Mars. So, I’m convinced that is going to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Cohen, we probably would not have gone to the Moon when we did had there not been a Cold War going on that required—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the missile gap to—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.209245944168874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—for us to spend that money. But what’s happening is—I’ll tell you what’s happening under Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, which is very positive. We are sending robotic probes to Mars, to other planets. There are studies to see how you would send humans to other planets, essentially Mars. And I’m convinced that that report is a forerunner; and I’m convinced that all this will come to pass. I’m convinced that students of mine will—if they desire to become astronauts, will be able to walk on Mars. So, I’m convinced that is going to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Cohen, we probably would not have gone to the Moon when we did had there not been a Cold War going on that required—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the missile gap to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—catch up. So, is it going to take something like that now to propel us on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.788051049076527, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—the missile gap to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—catch up. So, is it going to take something like that now to propel us on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I’m not sure it’s going to take that. I do think, though, your point’s well taken. The—you know, you go back and why was the space program started? It was not started for science or technology or economics. It was started because of the Cold War. And so, you’re absolutely right. But I do think that there does have to be a need, a need that causes the public to see the importance of it. Now what’s that need going to be? I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s my question."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.542278943418363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—catch up. So, is it going to take something like that now to propel us on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I’m not sure it’s going to take that. I do think, though, your point’s well taken. The—you know, you go back and why was the space program started? It was not started for science or technology or economics. It was started because of the Cold War. And so, you’re absolutely right. But I do think that there does have to be a need, a need that causes the public to see the importance of it. Now what’s that need going to be? I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s my question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is the need for you to go to Mars?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.626275096350225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I—no, I think you still—I think there’s a place for both. I think you do need a robotic missions. In fact, I’ve been on the Mars Architecture Study at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory [Pasadena, California] where we’ve looked at the robotic missions. But even the people that are very interested in the robotic mission are very firm that you do need men and women in space. There is no question in their mind, the robotic missions are the precursors. But eventually to do the job, you do need men and women. And I think you get very much in support from both the people doing the robotic missions that humans are going to be a very intimate part of the exploration program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why’d you leave NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I left NASA because I felt it was time for me to do something else. I always had the desire that I wanted to teach. I’ve had that desire—I never taught before. I always had the desire; I wanted to teach; and an opportunity was coming to me at the—at several places. One at MIT and one at Texas A&M. And, of course, I’m a graduate of Texas A&M and I felt that it was a good time for me to go. I didn’t want—I—but leaving NASA was very hard. I mean, it was very hard; and it was—they treated me very well. I enjoyed it. I had a wonderful career. I couldn’t think of anything I’d want to do more than I did. But I did want to teach. And I had an opportunity to come here and teach senior mechanical engineering design, which is something that I can use my talents on. A lot—many of the things we talked about today are examples how I get my students and teach my students. In fact, we design projects very much like what we’re talking about. The futuristic projects, these students do that. So, I had the opportunity to come teach; and that’s why I left. And I—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your students still want to go to the Moon or go to Mars?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is this still a—is this still something that engineering students are interested in?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.251416773722473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I left NASA because I felt it was time for me to do something else. I always had the desire that I wanted to teach. I’ve had that desire—I never taught before. I always had the desire; I wanted to teach; and an opportunity was coming to me at the—at several places. One at MIT and one at Texas A&M. And, of course, I’m a graduate of Texas A&M and I felt that it was a good time for me to go. I didn’t want—I—but leaving NASA was very hard. I mean, it was very hard; and it was—they treated me very well. I enjoyed it. I had a wonderful career. I couldn’t think of anything I’d want to do more than I did. But I did want to teach. And I had an opportunity to come here and teach senior mechanical engineering design, which is something that I can use my talents on. A lot—many of the things we talked about today are examples how I get my students and teach my students. In fact, we design projects very much like what we’re talking about. The futuristic projects, these students do that. So, I had the opportunity to come teach; and that’s why I left. And I—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your students still want to go to the Moon or go to Mars?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is this still a—is this still something that engineering students are interested in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they are. And it—well, of course, it does challenge the engineering in terms of structures, materials, guidance systems, propulsion systems, environmental control systems. So, it really taxes them on their technology and their advancement of the state of the art. So, they’re very interested in it. And I’m very fortunate to teach here at Texas A&M because I do get a lot of rejuvenation myself, you might say, in working with the students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could’ve stayed making microwaves. Are you glad you came to NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.946018637469414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is this still a—is this still something that engineering students are interested in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they are. And it—well, of course, it does challenge the engineering in terms of structures, materials, guidance systems, propulsion systems, environmental control systems. So, it really taxes them on their technology and their advancement of the state of the art. So, they’re very interested in it. And I’m very fortunate to teach here at Texas A&M because I do get a lot of rejuvenation myself, you might say, in working with the students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could’ve stayed making microwaves. Are you glad you came to NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I can’t—I mean, yes, I’m very happy. I’m very happy I came to NASA. Yes, I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time you did, it must’ve been terribly exciting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.717798486077126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they are. And it—well, of course, it does challenge the engineering in terms of structures, materials, guidance systems, propulsion systems, environmental control systems. So, it really taxes them on their technology and their advancement of the state of the art. So, they’re very interested in it. And I’m very fortunate to teach here at Texas A&M because I do get a lot of rejuvenation myself, you might say, in working with the students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could’ve stayed making microwaves. Are you glad you came to NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I can’t—I mean, yes, I’m very happy. I’m very happy I came to NASA. Yes, I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time you did, it must’ve been terribly exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was extremely exciting, and I’m—I feel very, very fortunate to have worked with the people I had the opportunity to work with and the things I had to work on. It was just a wonderful, wonderful career for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "8 or Moon landing or the first time the Shuttle flew? The biggest moments of your life?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.19481294577423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was extremely exciting, and I’m—I feel very, very fortunate to have worked with the people I had the opportunity to work with and the things I had to work on. It was just a wonderful, wonderful career for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "8 or Moon landing or the first time the Shuttle flew? The biggest moments of your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me give it to you in sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, I have to say the most significant event in my career was Apollo 8, as we talked about. I think that because humans left the influence of the Earth for the first time. And that had to be a very, very significant event. The second most important thing in my career was the first flight of the Shuttle. Because that to me was the most complicated vehicle we ever flew. And the second most—the third one was actually the second flight of the Shuttle, because that showed we had a reusable vehicle. And the fourth one, which although was very, very important, was the Apollo lunar landing—was the fourth one in my estimation. So, that’s how I rate my goals and my—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting that everybody’s making lists—\\n\\n If you look at all those lists that people are making now at the—as we come to the end of the 20th century about great events of the 20th century, Apollo 11 is way up there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.8831254953047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me give it to you in sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, I have to say the most significant event in my career was Apollo 8, as we talked about. I think that because humans left the influence of the Earth for the first time. And that had to be a very, very significant event. The second most important thing in my career was the first flight of the Shuttle. Because that to me was the most complicated vehicle we ever flew. And the second most—the third one was actually the second flight of the Shuttle, because that showed we had a reusable vehicle. And the fourth one, which although was very, very important, was the Apollo lunar landing—was the fourth one in my estimation. So, that’s how I rate my goals and my—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting that everybody’s making lists—\\n\\n If you look at all those lists that people are making now at the—as we come to the end of the 20th century about great events of the 20th century, Apollo 11 is way up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "8’s not even there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.070130994931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think that’s right. And I think when you—like the National Academy of Engineering is—which is the most prestigious engineering organization in the country came up with their list and they actually have Apollo 11 as one. They don’t mention Apollo 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think that’s probably right from a perspective of the country and of the world. But if you really look at the engineering and what you—as you pointed out, what you were really trying to accomplish, Apollo 8 has to stand out. And I’ve got to tell you: I don’t think today that you could make a decision on—to do Apollo 8 like we did. I mean, this was something George Low thought was important; for whatever reason, he thought it was important. He was able to put it together. He was able to sell it. And we were able to do it. Could you do something like that today? I’m not sure you could. I mean, I’m not sure that you could because there are a lot of risks. I mean, talk about risks! There were—you said, you asked me and I passed it off, like, “Yeah, it was easy.” But there were a lot of risks in doing Apollo 8. And—that’s something that not too many—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are debates going on to this very day as to whether you all really were ready to do what you did with Apollo 8. Obviously it worked! But the question is: were you really ready?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.96681221659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think that’s probably right from a perspective of the country and of the world. But if you really look at the engineering and what you—as you pointed out, what you were really trying to accomplish, Apollo 8 has to stand out. And I’ve got to tell you: I don’t think today that you could make a decision on—to do Apollo 8 like we did. I mean, this was something George Low thought was important; for whatever reason, he thought it was important. He was able to put it together. He was able to sell it. And we were able to do it. Could you do something like that today? I’m not sure you could. I mean, I’m not sure that you could because there are a lot of risks. I mean, talk about risks! There were—you said, you asked me and I passed it off, like, “Yeah, it was easy.” But there were a lot of risks in doing Apollo 8. And—that’s something that not too many—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are debates going on to this very day as to whether you all really were ready to do what you did with Apollo 8. Obviously it worked! But the question is: were you really ready?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I really think so. I mean, I really think we were. You know, at some point in time you’ve got to do what you set out to do. And we set out to leave the Earth and not stay around in low Earth orbit anymore. We said we were going to go someplace."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that mean you’d learned so much on those previous flights that it was just—you just didn’t need to do the same thing over again, or what?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.070138539, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I really think so. I mean, I really think we were. You know, at some point in time you’ve got to do what you set out to do. And we set out to leave the Earth and not stay around in low Earth orbit anymore. We said we were going to go someplace."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that mean you’d learned so much on those previous flights that it was just—you just didn’t need to do the same thing over again, or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well—yeah, I think that’s right. Well, I—whether you learn, I think you accomplish what you set out—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You—yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—to do. And I don’t think you were really going to learn much more—I mean, you know, you couldn’t study—you can’t study forever. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, somebody was too conservative in 1968 or ’69 when they started building up all of this stuff?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 5.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—we—the Russians made us feel like everybody had overstayed their time there and men were—men and women were doing more than they really should do and could do. And that got to be a situation where I think the American public began to ask a lot of questions about whether this was wise or not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wise, and should we participate? Should we send astronauts back to the Mir? Well, I think that’s right. I think anytime—you know, it’s easy anytime you have a potential failure or a failure that becomes life-threatening, you question it. So, in this question, I think we gained an awful lot from going to the Mir and working with the Russians. I think today, if you look at the Space Station (and I’ve got to be honest with you, I’m not that much—I’m—I’ve been away from it a while, so I’m not really an expert) —"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—but if you look at what—where the Space Station stands, I feel firmly that if the Russians don’t participate with us, there’s ways we can get around it. On the other hand, I think if they can participate, we probably would do it faster, maybe, with a little less money. But I do think we can handle it without the Russians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which brings up the whole point of international cooperation that’s going on now. Is there really that much or—or not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00105:419", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wise, and should we participate? Should we send astronauts back to the Mir? Well, I think that’s right. I think anytime—you know, it’s easy anytime you have a potential failure or a failure that becomes life-threatening, you question it. So, in this question, I think we gained an awful lot from going to the Mir and working with the Russians. I think today, if you look at the Space Station (and I’ve got to be honest with you, I’m not that much—I’m—I’ve been away from it a while, so I’m not really an expert) —"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—but if you look at what—where the Space Station stands, I feel firmly that if the Russians don’t participate with us, there’s ways we can get around it. On the other hand, I think if they can participate, we probably would do it faster, maybe, with a little less money. But I do think we can handle it without the Russians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which brings up the whole point of international cooperation that’s going on now. Is there really that much or—or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think there is. I think, you know, there’s Russians and—we’re talking about Space Station in particular. There are the Russians. And of course the—you’ve got to recognize, there are the Japanese, there’s the European Space Agency. So, I think the international cooperation’s very large. There’s also a lot of international cooperation in the robotic missions, the missions the Italians are playing a big part in, in sending robot—the unmanned missions to Mars. So, are the French; the CNS. And I think—I really think that space, since I really feel space is an international enterprise, I do think international cooperation is extremely important. And I don’t think it’s really going to be a success unless you have true international cooperation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We are—we’re in the middle of 1999, as this is being recorded. Are you surprised that there has not been more of a commercialization of space? That—?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00143:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.90194344306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly. When I was called to consult down at Oklahoma City on Rocketplane, I think the organization that was being proposed did not show enough space experience. I knew that NASA would not be familiar with some of the characters that were being called out, and their backgrounds, so we made some adjustments there. They were also going to have their program office located in Oklahoma City. I thought it would be much smarter to either locate it in Houston or locate it somewhere near the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. We made some adjustments there.\\n\\n As far as the technical end of it, the four or five fellows that worked on it did an excellent job. Then the schedule was adjusted to fit more to the NASA needs than it was laid out by the initial proposal that they submitted. We made changes to the schedule as well. Those are the ones I recall. There were other minor ones, but nothing great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in any of the negotiations or due diligence visits when NASA representatives came to visit the company?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The answer is yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about your role in that capacity, please?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I was asked to come down for the due diligence review NASA attended. I sat in the audience and was asked questions that the four or five could not answer. I don’t remember those questions, but it was in support of Rocketplane and I think it was called by George French. Again, to have more people who were familiar with the NASA folks, to be there for the review.\\n\\n The review was mostly handled by Randy Brinkley, the due diligence. And Will [Wilbur C.] Trafton was also there, who also was with NASA. Brinkley and Trafton were both NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC], as well as Houston folks that NASA were familiar with. It was more bringing people together that knew each other, and therefore had the same ideas and same goals, and communicated extremely well with each other. The Rocketplane people had never worked for NASA before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were sort of a liaison?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00143:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.2243816034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The answer is yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about your role in that capacity, please?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I was asked to come down for the due diligence review NASA attended. I sat in the audience and was asked questions that the four or five could not answer. I don’t remember those questions, but it was in support of Rocketplane and I think it was called by George French. Again, to have more people who were familiar with the NASA folks, to be there for the review.\\n\\n The review was mostly handled by Randy Brinkley, the due diligence. And Will [Wilbur C.] Trafton was also there, who also was with NASA. Brinkley and Trafton were both NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC], as well as Houston folks that NASA were familiar with. It was more bringing people together that knew each other, and therefore had the same ideas and same goals, and communicated extremely well with each other. The Rocketplane people had never worked for NASA before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were sort of a liaison?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were helping answer questions, were those primarily technical, or more financial, business-side questions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00143:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.582646226, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I was asked to come down for the due diligence review NASA attended. I sat in the audience and was asked questions that the four or five could not answer. I don’t remember those questions, but it was in support of Rocketplane and I think it was called by George French. Again, to have more people who were familiar with the NASA folks, to be there for the review.\\n\\n The review was mostly handled by Randy Brinkley, the due diligence. And Will [Wilbur C.] Trafton was also there, who also was with NASA. Brinkley and Trafton were both NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC], as well as Houston folks that NASA were familiar with. It was more bringing people together that knew each other, and therefore had the same ideas and same goals, and communicated extremely well with each other. The Rocketplane people had never worked for NASA before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were sort of a liaison?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were helping answer questions, were those primarily technical, or more financial, business-side questions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were both. I really think the NASA folks out of Houston were very familiar with the technical end of it. A lot of questions were financial. “When are you going to get the money? How are you going to get the money? How much do you need?” All of those arrangements.\\n\\n The Space Act Agreement that was agreed to had some technical milestones in it, but also had some finance milestones. I think NASA came in with the idea, “Hey, these guys can go off and build this vehicle and make it work.” There was no doubt that we had a heck of a team at Kistler that were very, very talented and knew their systems in and out. It was more a question about, “Who’s going to get the money? Where is it going to come from? How much are you going to get?” Those were questions dealt by the finance people that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Throughout the length of Rocketplane Kistler’s Space Act Agreement with NASA, did you also have any involvement in trying to help them raise the necessary financing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00143:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.09182914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were helping answer questions, were those primarily technical, or more financial, business-side questions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were both. I really think the NASA folks out of Houston were very familiar with the technical end of it. A lot of questions were financial. “When are you going to get the money? How are you going to get the money? How much do you need?” All of those arrangements.\\n\\n The Space Act Agreement that was agreed to had some technical milestones in it, but also had some finance milestones. I think NASA came in with the idea, “Hey, these guys can go off and build this vehicle and make it work.” There was no doubt that we had a heck of a team at Kistler that were very, very talented and knew their systems in and out. It was more a question about, “Who’s going to get the money? Where is it going to come from? How much are you going to get?” Those were questions dealt by the finance people that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Throughout the length of Rocketplane Kistler’s Space Act Agreement with NASA, did you also have any involvement in trying to help them raise the necessary financing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The answer is yes. I attended some of the meetings that they would have. They called it a “road show,” where they went around and spoke to a bunch of investors, hedge fund people. I attended those sessions. I gave them top-level briefings about what this vehicle looked like, what the technical capability was, what the schedule would be, what customers are talking to us about. I gave them an overview. Then any level of detail was given by the engineers. The finance stuff was briefed primarily by Randy Brinkley and George French. I also want to add that NASA also cooperated and attended some of those meetings, to show their seriousness about this program. Of course it still didn’t make it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From your perspective, why do you think that in the end, they weren’t able to secure the financing? We understand that they had a very solid technical plan, but investors still weren’t attracted to that as a business opportunity."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 105.68558784912247, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Indoctrination, no. We worked directly with the people. Well, for example, may I show you the example? I brought some special things. I thought I had this stuff organized a little better, Becky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s all right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m just going to show you some—yes, here we go. [Biggs shows example.] Say, for example, I’d sit down with the Gemini crew and talk about, okay, how’s this astronaut [maneuvering] unit going to look, and how far out will you be, and when we land on the Moon, what sort of craters. We’d just sit and talk to them, and they would share their thoughts with me and tell what they thought it would look like. Then I would do the illustrations, go back to them, let them look at it. They’d say, “No, the color’s wrong. Originally the command module was black,” things like that.\\n\\n So, no special training per se, but it was what we called in the air force OJT, on-the-job training, just work with them, and you just did it over until you got it right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of tools were you using at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guache was the favorite medium then which is watercolor in a tube, and a lot of pencil drawings, a lot of illustrations. Like I say, not only full-color illustrations for publications, but illustrations for reports. After a mission, we’d do the mission report, and typically I’d do the cover of the mission report. So it might be in a pencil medium or charcoal or something like that.\\n\\n So, really, basically the same thing that some commercial artists would be using in a studio. You use the same tools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many of you were there? How many were in your crew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 115.20620872124718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m just going to show you some—yes, here we go. [Biggs shows example.] Say, for example, I’d sit down with the Gemini crew and talk about, okay, how’s this astronaut [maneuvering] unit going to look, and how far out will you be, and when we land on the Moon, what sort of craters. We’d just sit and talk to them, and they would share their thoughts with me and tell what they thought it would look like. Then I would do the illustrations, go back to them, let them look at it. They’d say, “No, the color’s wrong. Originally the command module was black,” things like that.\\n\\n So, no special training per se, but it was what we called in the air force OJT, on-the-job training, just work with them, and you just did it over until you got it right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of tools were you using at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guache was the favorite medium then which is watercolor in a tube, and a lot of pencil drawings, a lot of illustrations. Like I say, not only full-color illustrations for publications, but illustrations for reports. After a mission, we’d do the mission report, and typically I’d do the cover of the mission report. So it might be in a pencil medium or charcoal or something like that.\\n\\n So, really, basically the same thing that some commercial artists would be using in a studio. You use the same tools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many of you were there? How many were in your crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really three of us, Gerry [Gerald J.] Lyons, Grant Lathey [phonetic], and myself, we were the three conceptual illustrators. Then we had another group of people in that same organization. Most of them did flip charts and reports and stuff like that, but we were the three conceptual people, did conceptual work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your duties evolve in this area?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 126.89578746805242, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guache was the favorite medium then which is watercolor in a tube, and a lot of pencil drawings, a lot of illustrations. Like I say, not only full-color illustrations for publications, but illustrations for reports. After a mission, we’d do the mission report, and typically I’d do the cover of the mission report. So it might be in a pencil medium or charcoal or something like that.\\n\\n So, really, basically the same thing that some commercial artists would be using in a studio. You use the same tools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many of you were there? How many were in your crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really three of us, Gerry [Gerald J.] Lyons, Grant Lathey [phonetic], and myself, we were the three conceptual illustrators. Then we had another group of people in that same organization. Most of them did flip charts and reports and stuff like that, but we were the three conceptual people, did conceptual work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your duties evolve in this area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s sort of what you volunteered to do, and then if you proved you had the skills, then they’d continue to let you do it. Of course, that has its down sides, because if you keep volunteering, they would keep piling it on, and that’s basically what happened. But I really liked that.\\n\\n When my boss, Roy [L.] Magin, found out that “He can do illustrations. Then we’ll let him do illustrations,” I started getting more of those. And that’s just the way it went, working with a repetograph [phonetic]. Whatever skill that you had, they’d take advantage of it. That’s a pretty small group, and we didn’t have a contract support at that time. Later we got some contract support. It was all done in-house by NASA employees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time that you were doing this specific task, Gemini was under way, but at some point Apollo started to come onboard. Did you have the task of working on both projects or both programs at the same time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:110", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.701786900000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’ve always found that worked quite well. I can’t address anything after 1992, but up until 1992, I thought the Headquarters-Center function worked real well. Headquarters would fund for something if it were a World’s Fair or a Paris Air Show. Then they would look to the Center who could provide that support that was necessary, whether it was video support or designing and building a Paris Air Show.\\n\\n Really, we at JSC took advantage of that, too, because we had some good skills, and since it was funded by NASA Headquarters, it allowed us to maintain a contract staff that we might not be able to maintain otherwise. So I never really had a problem with it. You might get a different story from someone down the hall, but we worked quite well with our media counterparts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s all I have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all the questions you have?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra?\n\nI just had one. You mentioned that they projected the amount of people that would be going through Space Center Houston as being higher than the amount that actually did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked to a couple of other people, like Bill Kelly, and they mentioned that. Do you have any idea why you think the public didn’t respond the same way that projections were?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:112", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.557541000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all the questions you have?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra?\n\nI just had one. You mentioned that they projected the amount of people that would be going through Space Center Houston as being higher than the amount that actually did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked to a couple of other people, like Bill Kelly, and they mentioned that. Do you have any idea why you think the public didn’t respond the same way that projections were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I think they just over-anticipated the demand. We’re not in downtown Houston. We’re off the beaten track. I mean, you’ve got to come out here to come out to see us, you know, and I think the one point—they said it would go to 1.7 [million visitors a year or] something like that, and then it would taper off, and then it would gradually start to increase. But they thought that the first year that it opened would have 1.7. Well, we had about 800,000 people.\\n\\n The first year’s financial numbers, we were about $6 million in debt. Maybe that was two years. We had to dip into a contingency fund. So our current director of Space Center Houston, Richard Allen, should get most of that thanks, too, because he made a lot of management changes, personnel changes, operational changes that got them in the black. They’re in the black, doing well, but they’re still hovering under a million people. But that’s not [anything to] be ashamed of. Marshall Space Flight Center, 400,000 [to] 500,000, you know, that’s pretty good numbers out where we are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you leave today, we want you to share some other items that you brought with us, and we can do it however you would like."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was in different pieces. The command and service module was at Rockwell. The first stage was at Mississippi Test, and the second stage was at Michoud, and they were in big bags of dry nitrogen. That way they were keeping it in pristine condition so that if we ever needed to fly it again, we could.\\n\\n There’s our Apollo-Soyuz in position, or this is our Apollo docking module in position, waiting for the Soyuz to come in. [Biggs shows a photograph.] Then they brought in the Soyuz. Then once everything is in position, then a big giant crane—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And to work out the mechanics and the details of doing this, it was really exciting for me. I think back on it, and I never really had a fear that things would go wrong, and now I think back on that, and it really scares me. [Laughter] I’d just always assumed, you know, with good people you’re going to work your problems out, and there’re not problems at all.\\n\\n Here’s our friend Bob McCall. You might find this interesting. Here’s Bob McCall up on his scaffolding, working on his mural. Like I say, he was up there for several months. He added the woman, Sally [K.] Ride, and added some of the women in the control center and then added a couple of our black astronauts.\\n\\n But a great career here, and I enjoyed it, and I’d like to do it again. But only one time around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like your new adventure may give you some great memories as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s fine, and it’s doing many of the same things, many of the same kind of projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close today, is there anything else that you want to add, or anything else that you can think of?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00031:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And to work out the mechanics and the details of doing this, it was really exciting for me. I think back on it, and I never really had a fear that things would go wrong, and now I think back on that, and it really scares me. [Laughter] I’d just always assumed, you know, with good people you’re going to work your problems out, and there’re not problems at all.\\n\\n Here’s our friend Bob McCall. You might find this interesting. Here’s Bob McCall up on his scaffolding, working on his mural. Like I say, he was up there for several months. He added the woman, Sally [K.] Ride, and added some of the women in the control center and then added a couple of our black astronauts.\\n\\n But a great career here, and I enjoyed it, and I’d like to do it again. But only one time around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like your new adventure may give you some great memories as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s fine, and it’s doing many of the same things, many of the same kind of projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close today, is there anything else that you want to add, or anything else that you can think of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. As I mentioned before, this is an exercise, whether it’s formal like this or not, I think this is an exercise that everyone ought to do, just to kind of reflect back on their lives, especially people that are my age. I turned sixty-five in March, and sometimes I think we might be pleasantly surprised at how much fun we’ve really had. You know, we dwell on the bad things in life, illnesses and death in the family and that sort of thing. We kind of shove aside and forget the things that have really been great about our lives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We certainly are glad you came in today, because we have learned a lot about areas that we had not heard before, and certainly are glad that you spent the time with us. So I thank you again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00016:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.128099999999996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’ve got students all over the country. This is a direct fallout of all my work with LSAPT and the Meteorite Working Group, because I know these people, and if I’ve got a good student, I can call them and they’ll say, yes, they’ll take a hard look at him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s an old-boy, old-girls’ network right down the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s worked out really well for you. You’ve certainly had a fascinating career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I’ve enjoyed it thoroughly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d like to give Kevin a chance now to ask you a couple of questions.\n\nI have one specific question and a couple of general questions. Earlier on in the interview you mentioned testing some protective clothing and such for NASA down at Antarctica. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00016:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think that I really saw it coming, because I was at a level where we were just so busy and had so many things going on, although I could see it somewhat among the press. This was somewhat dismaying to me on a personal basis, because I was thinking the press was in many ways defining public opinion. That’s not good. And we see this today. All you have to do is to follow the stock market today, and you can see that the press is defining that, but the average person is not necessarily that associated with it.\\n\\n Yes, this was a bit difficult, and, as I said a little earlier, it was a real problem. We would sit and ask and almost, why? Why is it that one day we’re kind of the darlings of the system and the next day you’re the dregs? You just don’t quite understand it. I know that many people were fighting to keep things going, and they did a wonderful job, but we went through some very difficult years. I hate to see it, but part of it comes from the fact that NASA has to go in for its budget every year. This is a rather stupid kind of a situation when NASA thinks in decades and not in years. So that’s part of the problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those were all the questions I had. Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to thank you for spending some time with us this afternoon and sharing so many of your interesting experiences with us and so much of the history of the program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, thank you. It’s been fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly has been for us as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00916:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 33.03357543566101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, let's get started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. In April of this year, you assumed this role of Associate Deputy Administrator, placing you responsible for a number of things here at the agency. We'd like for you to begin today by telling us what those duties are and how you moved into this position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish I could tell you specifically what they are. They pretty much change every day. But generally speaking, I serve as the deputy to the Deputy Administrator [Shana L. Dale]. Until you've actually worked here, you really don't have an appreciation for what the Deputy Administrator and Administrator do on a daily basis. So my job is to help fill in the blanks. I cover some of those things that she just can't get to because of such demands on her schedule. That can range from filling in for her at a speaking engagement at a field center or conducting budget reviews. Making sure the Operations Management Council (OMC) is scheduled and the agenda is appropriate for what she's trying to get done. But if I could sum it up, I help execute her vision and strategy for the things she wants to get done during her tenure here at the agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there one thing in particular that seems to be more memorable in your short term in this job that stood out that you were able to step in and do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, generally speaking, what really is amazing is the pace which things occur here in the A Suite [Administrator’s Suite]. It is most relentless. It's constant and it's full. But actually helping work the corporate G&A budget process has been I believe a tremendous help to Shana. Working with the various mission support offices here in the building and helping balance the budget needs across each of those mission directorates. Also being an interface for her into the HSPD-12 [Homeland Security Presidential Directive] project that's going on now throughout all of government and helping to keep that in focus and in line, and working with the different offices that's charged with implementing HSPD-12."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've been with NASA for more than 30 years and began your career as a cooperative education student."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00916:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To NASA the agency?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, the agency."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, where else can you work where there is a mission like the one we have? Again, I may feel that way because it's the only place I've ever worked. But I don't think that's it. Challenging and exploring the unknown and trying to figure out if we can we live in other places other than Earth, and how we get there, the research we do, having a permanent presence in space on the Space Station, to me that should be encouragement enough. But the benefits that goes back into society, I would argue that we play a greater or as great a role as any other agency in all of government. It's simply an exciting place to work. Again I go back to the people that work in this agency. Extremely bright and always willing to help, and take on any challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I pretty much have concluded my thoughts to share. Is there anything else that you would like to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, I really appreciate what you're doing here. I'm glad someone actually thought about doing this. Because NASA is a baby compared to a lot of agencies. But what a tremendous achievement for 50 years. I think that should be recorded somewhere for future generations so that they may get interested in trying to figure out how we accomplished so much and who were some of the people that worked there. So I thank you for what you are doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You'll get to be more involved, and they all do something different, and JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] going off to Mars, and of course [NASA] Kennedy [Space Center, Florida] where you'll have more and more chance to go down and see the launch of the new vehicles."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 25.100606852308644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, thanks for letting me doing this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is a wonderful, a wonderful project and a wonderful opportunity for you to share some of your thoughts and experiences as a Peace Corps volunteer. So let's begin this conversation by your telling me, why did you join the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. To be honest, I hadn't really given it a whole lot of thought ahead of time. You know, I'd known about the Peace Corps. I'd heard of the Peace Corps, but never really considered that this was something that I would do, but it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. I had a friend who had been down to the Peace Corps office and was really interested in joining the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the office in Washington, D.C., or someplace else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a recruiting office in San Diego, which I grew up in East County, San Diego. So she had gone down and picked up all the materials. And I happened to be over at her house that evening. And she was really disappointed because they had moved from Canada and never became U.S. citizens. So she was ineligible. And I was sitting there looking at all this material that she had brought home. And I thought, well, this looks like, this looks like pretty interesting. You know, this looks like it could be fun. So I filled out the application and sent it in. And that's about as much planning as went into my applying for the Peace Corps. It was more or less a whim."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you in your life at that point? What were you doing? What was that time frame in your own life?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.209329289757056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I didn't have a plan to follow, so that kind of freed me up to take off to Fiji on a whim."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well, so what did your family say when you told them you wanted to do Peace Corps? What did they say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was, I don't know. It was kind of mixed. You know, my parents had broken up long before that. So my dad, you know. He was fine. Actually, my dad grew up during the Depression, and he ran away from home when he was a young kid, about 12 or 13. And he had rode freight trains across the country. In fact, you know, when we were like, my brother and I were like ten or 12 years old, he used to tell us we ought to run away. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have the adventures that he had?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So he thought this was a good idea also, you know, if you could travel on Uncle Sam's dime, you know, that was great. So he was all for it. My mother, you know, on the other hand, you know, mothers don't want to see their kids, you know, travel halfway around the world and be out of contact with them. So, you know, she didn't think it was a great idea. But no, you know, nobody really protested loudly or try to talk me out of it. She might have not, she might have thought it was kind of a dumb idea, but she didn't try to talk me out of it, that's for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the siblings, your older sibling, did they have any memorable response?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.604110234267969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So he thought this was a good idea also, you know, if you could travel on Uncle Sam's dime, you know, that was great. So he was all for it. My mother, you know, on the other hand, you know, mothers don't want to see their kids, you know, travel halfway around the world and be out of contact with them. So, you know, she didn't think it was a great idea. But no, you know, nobody really protested loudly or try to talk me out of it. She might have not, she might have thought it was kind of a dumb idea, but she didn't try to talk me out of it, that's for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the siblings, your older sibling, did they have any memorable response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd say so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So OK."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.00456692696441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd say so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was something that, you know, nobody would have ever thought about in our family to do something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what about your Canadian friend who wasn't able to? Did she ever get a citizenship so she could join Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.560629918849344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd say so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was something that, you know, nobody would have ever thought about in our family to do something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what about your Canadian friend who wasn't able to? Did she ever get a citizenship so she could join Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. You know, I haven't seen her in, I haven't seen her in a long time, but I don't think she ever did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. That could have been an impetus. So let's think about then you've closed your business, you've gotten apart or gotten a temporary job in order to get yourself, keep food on the table, shall we say."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.289588798721493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was something that, you know, nobody would have ever thought about in our family to do something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what about your Canadian friend who wasn't able to? Did she ever get a citizenship so she could join Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. You know, I haven't seen her in, I haven't seen her in a long time, but I don't think she ever did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. That could have been an impetus. So let's think about then you've closed your business, you've gotten apart or gotten a temporary job in order to get yourself, keep food on the table, shall we say."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And go into Peace Corps. So what, you know, tell us about arriving at training. Where did you train and what was that like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.877320887468326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. You know, I haven't seen her in, I haven't seen her in a long time, but I don't think she ever did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. That could have been an impetus. So let's think about then you've closed your business, you've gotten apart or gotten a temporary job in order to get yourself, keep food on the table, shall we say."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And go into Peace Corps. So what, you know, tell us about arriving at training. Where did you train and what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, so we trained in country. We had, we actually had an orientation in Chicago several weeks before we took off. So I think it was a bit of a screening process. They flew everybody to Chicago. The country director was there on and one of the local Peace Corps office staff members, one of the Fijian guys, and they were there to tell us a little bit about what serving in Fiji would be like. And then also they had the country director sat down with everybody individually and had a little one on one interview. And they were actually a couple of people that got screened out at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Interesting. How many were you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.15718628082509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, so we trained in country. We had, we actually had an orientation in Chicago several weeks before we took off. So I think it was a bit of a screening process. They flew everybody to Chicago. The country director was there on and one of the local Peace Corps office staff members, one of the Fijian guys, and they were there to tell us a little bit about what serving in Fiji would be like. And then also they had the country director sat down with everybody individually and had a little one on one interview. And they were actually a couple of people that got screened out at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Interesting. How many were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were probably. There were 36 that ended up traveling. So there must have been 38 or, you know, 38 to 40 at that session in Chicago. Yeah. So I passed that screening, luckily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then a few weeks later, we all departed for Fiji. I remember, you know, people came from all over the country, but we took the same flight from Los Angeles. So everybody flew to LA and then got on the, I think it was a Continental flight at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a little home leave between your Chicago orientation and going to Fiji or did you go directly?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.730206978694545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were probably. There were 36 that ended up traveling. So there must have been 38 or, you know, 38 to 40 at that session in Chicago. Yeah. So I passed that screening, luckily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then a few weeks later, we all departed for Fiji. I remember, you know, people came from all over the country, but we took the same flight from Los Angeles. So everybody flew to LA and then got on the, I think it was a Continental flight at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a little home leave between your Chicago orientation and going to Fiji or did you go directly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there were a few weeks there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, a few weeks. Uh huh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.47800775410505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then a few weeks later, we all departed for Fiji. I remember, you know, people came from all over the country, but we took the same flight from Los Angeles. So everybody flew to LA and then got on the, I think it was a Continental flight at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a little home leave between your Chicago orientation and going to Fiji or did you go directly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there were a few weeks there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, a few weeks. Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think, I don't remember exactly how long it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you all flew together in a group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.975564171227834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there were a few weeks there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, a few weeks. Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think, I don't remember exactly how long it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you all flew together in a group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Then we flew together in a group. They didn't have direct flights at that time. So we stopped in Hawaii and then flew from Hawaii to Fiji. One of the things I remember about Hawaii was, you know, we had met, some of us became friends at that short trip to Chicago. But, you know, you're still meeting new people on this trip. So we got off in Hawaii. We actually had to get off the plane for a couple of hours. And there was a guy who was just really excited. He was from the Midwest and had never seen the Pacific Ocean before. And it was just, it was really fun to listen to this guy, was just so excited about being in Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Right. And there he was going to Fiji where he was going to see the Pacific a lot."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.155017495343005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Then we flew together in a group. They didn't have direct flights at that time. So we stopped in Hawaii and then flew from Hawaii to Fiji. One of the things I remember about Hawaii was, you know, we had met, some of us became friends at that short trip to Chicago. But, you know, you're still meeting new people on this trip. So we got off in Hawaii. We actually had to get off the plane for a couple of hours. And there was a guy who was just really excited. He was from the Midwest and had never seen the Pacific Ocean before. And it was just, it was really fun to listen to this guy, was just so excited about being in Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Right. And there he was going to Fiji where he was going to see the Pacific a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Actually, he spent a lot of time in the Pacific after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But yeah. So then when you fly to Fiji, the flights always get in very early in the morning and this was, it was October. So, you know, the seasons are different there. And at that time of year, the sunrise is early. So the sun was coming up as we were flying in. And it was really, I'll never forget that sunrise. It was the most dramatic sunrise I'd ever seen in my life, you know, just a red, red sky. And it was really, really beautiful. So that was really exciting too. It was a good introduction or good welcome to Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. It painted the whole world red at that point as it was. Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's a great image. And so when you say early morning, 5:00? That early?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.616686105936672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Actually, he spent a lot of time in the Pacific after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But yeah. So then when you fly to Fiji, the flights always get in very early in the morning and this was, it was October. So, you know, the seasons are different there. And at that time of year, the sunrise is early. So the sun was coming up as we were flying in. And it was really, I'll never forget that sunrise. It was the most dramatic sunrise I'd ever seen in my life, you know, just a red, red sky. And it was really, really beautiful. So that was really exciting too. It was a good introduction or good welcome to Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. It painted the whole world red at that point as it was. Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's a great image. And so when you say early morning, 5:00? That early?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe closer to 6:00, 5:00 to 6:00, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fiji is located near the equator?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.045291488810705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe closer to 6:00, 5:00 to 6:00, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fiji is located near the equator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "South of the equator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "South."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And just west of the international date. Actually, the international dateline runs through part of Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.939212765345225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "South of the equator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "South."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And just west of the international date. Actually, the international dateline runs through part of Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it jogs around a little bit. Yeah, but I think it's about 17 degrees south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So. OK. So you got in on an early morning in October."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.04356973927247, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And just west of the international date. Actually, the international dateline runs through part of Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it jogs around a little bit. Yeah, but I think it's about 17 degrees south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So. OK. So you got in on an early morning in October."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which would have been fall in the U.S., although in Southern California you can hardly tell the difference."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.38174415474719, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it jogs around a little bit. Yeah, but I think it's about 17 degrees south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So. OK. So you got in on an early morning in October."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which would have been fall in the U.S., although in Southern California you can hardly tell the difference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can hardly tell, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that seasons weren't part of embedded in your cycle."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 25.979715727496874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which would have been fall in the U.S., although in Southern California you can hardly tell the difference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can hardly tell, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that seasons weren't part of embedded in your cycle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was, uh, I guess that would be spring in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. And how does that distinguish itself from other seasons in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 23.310795252774305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can hardly tell, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that seasons weren't part of embedded in your cycle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was, uh, I guess that would be spring in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. And how does that distinguish itself from other seasons in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the summers in Fiji, which summer is Christmastime there, is usually the wet season, so it's hotter and wetter at that time of year. We were getting into the rainy season and it's also hurricane season. So I don't, I just remember it being very hot and humid, but the weather. Actually the weather was quite nice when we got in. It was sunny, it wasn't too wet yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So where did you go for your training and where did you live? What kind of, were you in homestays or were you in a hotel or how did your training go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.789772503082563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was, uh, I guess that would be spring in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. And how does that distinguish itself from other seasons in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the summers in Fiji, which summer is Christmastime there, is usually the wet season, so it's hotter and wetter at that time of year. We were getting into the rainy season and it's also hurricane season. So I don't, I just remember it being very hot and humid, but the weather. Actually the weather was quite nice when we got in. It was sunny, it wasn't too wet yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So where did you go for your training and where did you live? What kind of, were you in homestays or were you in a hotel or how did your training go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. So yeah. So when we landed, the airport is on one side of the island and the capital city is on the other. The airport is in Nadi. We landed and they bused us to a hostel for the first day, so we stayed at a place called the Coconut Inn. And we got our gamma globulin shots there for hepatitis, and just spent one night there at the Coconut Inn in Nadi. Then we took the long 12 hour, I think it was a 12 hour bus ride on unpaved roads to Suva, which is now a trip that you can do in about three and a half hours. Not a very nice paved road. Back then, the busses, uh, the busses didn't have glass in the windows. They were just open air busses and they had tarps that rolled down, that you'd roll down when it rains. So during the course of a day, a day's bus ride, you'd have sun and showers and on and off. And by the time you got to Suva, your hair would be caked with mud, you know, you'd be exhausted. So that was our second day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is your second day? After getting the gamma globulin shots in the first day, then you got to rest one night and they put you in this bus."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.420812761430127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right. Yeah. So it was good. You know, the group was bonding and we were having fun. Then we got to Suva and they put us up in a, in a small, I don't know, it's more like a boarding house than a hotel. What was that place called? Loloma Flats on Gorrie Street in Suva."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Laloma?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Loloma. L-O-L-O-M-A. Loloma. And so we stayed there for the duration of our training. The training was a mix of language training that was conducted there in Suva at a place that was just a short walk from where I was staying. And then we had two home stays during that time also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the group was learning Fijian. And since I was going to be, you know, on the technical side working in the public works department where most of the workers were Indian, I was trained in Hindi. And we had a little cross training too, so you got a little taste of both languages. But the homestays were with local families. So my first homestay was at a place again back on the other side of the island in Lautoka, a sugarcane farming area called Field 40. And we stayed with an Indian family out there for a few days. I don't think it was a whole week. I think they were five-day home stays. And one of the language instructors accompanied us. They'd have, say, three or four trainees and one language instructor. So you're out there staying with the family, but during the day when they're going about their business, you still did your language training. He was conducting classes. So that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find the family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.24534751270014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Loloma. L-O-L-O-M-A. Loloma. And so we stayed there for the duration of our training. The training was a mix of language training that was conducted there in Suva at a place that was just a short walk from where I was staying. And then we had two home stays during that time also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the group was learning Fijian. And since I was going to be, you know, on the technical side working in the public works department where most of the workers were Indian, I was trained in Hindi. And we had a little cross training too, so you got a little taste of both languages. But the homestays were with local families. So my first homestay was at a place again back on the other side of the island in Lautoka, a sugarcane farming area called Field 40. And we stayed with an Indian family out there for a few days. I don't think it was a whole week. I think they were five-day home stays. And one of the language instructors accompanied us. They'd have, say, three or four trainees and one language instructor. So you're out there staying with the family, but during the day when they're going about their business, you still did your language training. He was conducting classes. So that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find the family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you by yourself with the family or was there another volunteer with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.161497236333489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the group was learning Fijian. And since I was going to be, you know, on the technical side working in the public works department where most of the workers were Indian, I was trained in Hindi. And we had a little cross training too, so you got a little taste of both languages. But the homestays were with local families. So my first homestay was at a place again back on the other side of the island in Lautoka, a sugarcane farming area called Field 40. And we stayed with an Indian family out there for a few days. I don't think it was a whole week. I think they were five-day home stays. And one of the language instructors accompanied us. They'd have, say, three or four trainees and one language instructor. So you're out there staying with the family, but during the day when they're going about their business, you still did your language training. He was conducting classes. So that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find the family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you by yourself with the family or was there another volunteer with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm trying to remember on that one. Yeah, there was one volunteer in each house. And I stayed with a shopkeeper there in Field 40, very nice people. You know, this one thing about Fiji and probably most countries, you know, people are very welcoming and they treated us very well, whether it was, whether they were Fijian or Indian. It was the same experience, very open."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about, um, did you participate in any of the activities that week with the family themselves? Did you go out to the field and see how they worked their farm?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.179441373703876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you by yourself with the family or was there another volunteer with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm trying to remember on that one. Yeah, there was one volunteer in each house. And I stayed with a shopkeeper there in Field 40, very nice people. You know, this one thing about Fiji and probably most countries, you know, people are very welcoming and they treated us very well, whether it was, whether they were Fijian or Indian. It was the same experience, very open."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about, um, did you participate in any of the activities that week with the family themselves? Did you go out to the field and see how they worked their farm?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we didn't do any of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just socialized with them in the evening?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.310490415226528, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm trying to remember on that one. Yeah, there was one volunteer in each house. And I stayed with a shopkeeper there in Field 40, very nice people. You know, this one thing about Fiji and probably most countries, you know, people are very welcoming and they treated us very well, whether it was, whether they were Fijian or Indian. It was the same experience, very open."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about, um, did you participate in any of the activities that week with the family themselves? Did you go out to the field and see how they worked their farm?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we didn't do any of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just socialized with them in the evening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just socialized with them, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And how was your language at this point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.74134619163769, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just socialized with them, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And how was your language at this point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was picking it up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So one thing I've learned is that I don't have any trouble memorizing vocabulary, but I'm not a big talker. And to really get proficient at a language, you have to talk a lot. So I was good at memorizing things. But when it came to conducting conversations, then it was a little bit difficult. And the national language in Fiji is actually English because they were an English colony. So unless you were in a remote Fijian village, you probably spoke English most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had that as your backup."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.045940212930768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was picking it up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So one thing I've learned is that I don't have any trouble memorizing vocabulary, but I'm not a big talker. And to really get proficient at a language, you have to talk a lot. So I was good at memorizing things. But when it came to conducting conversations, then it was a little bit difficult. And the national language in Fiji is actually English because they were an English colony. So unless you were in a remote Fijian village, you probably spoke English most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had that as your backup."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So most people did know some English except in rural, isolated areas?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.495489125478631, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So one thing I've learned is that I don't have any trouble memorizing vocabulary, but I'm not a big talker. And to really get proficient at a language, you have to talk a lot. So I was good at memorizing things. But when it came to conducting conversations, then it was a little bit difficult. And the national language in Fiji is actually English because they were an English colony. So unless you were in a remote Fijian village, you probably spoke English most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had that as your backup."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So most people did know some English except in rural, isolated areas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, everybody knows knew some English. But if you were, if you were living in a village, a Fijian village, everybody would speak Fijian. If you were living in town, it was a mix, you know, because it was multicultural, multi-ethnic society. So the common language was English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So speaking about the society for a minute. Multi- ethnic society. So there were Fijians and there were Indians. Were there other groups of cultures? Other cultures there too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.550543472754034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So most people did know some English except in rural, isolated areas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, everybody knows knew some English. But if you were, if you were living in a village, a Fijian village, everybody would speak Fijian. If you were living in town, it was a mix, you know, because it was multicultural, multi-ethnic society. So the common language was English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So speaking about the society for a minute. Multi- ethnic society. So there were Fijians and there were Indians. Were there other groups of cultures? Other cultures there too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there are Chinese. Other islanders. There's a small island in the north called Rotuma, where the people are actually more Polynesian, but it's governed by Fiji. So there were Rotumans. And English expatriates. At that time Fiji had just gained its independence, so there were still a lot of expatriates in the country from the UK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, right, right. Did most people who meet you, did they think you first maybe were British rather than American?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.631746876205808, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they're more. They were most likely to think you were Australian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time they, and probably still now, that most of the tourists came from Australia or New Zealand. Yeah. But it was most, most commonly when somebody would walk up to you on the street, they'd say, hey mate, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They'd think you were from Australia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that make you feel, when somebody thought you were Australian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.125613427414576, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They'd think you were from Australia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that make you feel, when somebody thought you were Australian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I didn't feel one way or another about it. I mean, it was honest mistake."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I just explained that I was American."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Yeah. OK, so you're in training. You've just had, you're in the middle of language, Hindi particularly, training, and you've had one homestay. So what about your second home stay?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.361792697127306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I didn't feel one way or another about it. I mean, it was honest mistake."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I just explained that I was American."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Yeah. OK, so you're in training. You've just had, you're in the middle of language, Hindi particularly, training, and you've had one homestay. So what about your second home stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So then we went back, went back to Suva for a couple of weeks and then had a second homestay. And very much like the first one, again it was a different town, a different family, but very much the same thing. Our instructor came with us, a guy named James Norian, young kid. He was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he American or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.73532521903034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I just explained that I was American."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Yeah. OK, so you're in training. You've just had, you're in the middle of language, Hindi particularly, training, and you've had one homestay. So what about your second home stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So then we went back, went back to Suva for a couple of weeks and then had a second homestay. And very much like the first one, again it was a different town, a different family, but very much the same thing. Our instructor came with us, a guy named James Norian, young kid. He was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he American or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. He was an Indian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Indian, uh huh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.253487924728814, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. He was an Indian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Indian, uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Local guy. He had good English and he was a good teacher. So we hung out with him during the day time. We would usually, you know, we might take a walk, you know, to the beach or something and have language classes for a couple of hours. And yeah, it's mostly just conversational stuff, but and then we'd go back and we'd spend the evening with the family. We'd talk and have food. And in Fiji, the evening social life usually resolves around, revolves around drinking kava, which is a drink they call yagona in Fiji, which is the root of a plant that they pound into a powder and then strain in water, you know, strain through a cloth. Not alcoholic or anything. Just has kind of a mild effect.\n\nBut all of the people in Fiji, whether they're Fijian or Indian or whatever, typically drink this stuff at night. And back then in '74, there wasn't a lot of other entertainment. You know, they had radio, there was no television or a lot to do. So the evenings, people would gather at their friend's house and sit around and drink kava and play cards and tell stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell stories."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tell stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were they, were they likely telling stories using English or Hindi in the storytelling?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.503875471920905, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Local guy. He had good English and he was a good teacher. So we hung out with him during the day time. We would usually, you know, we might take a walk, you know, to the beach or something and have language classes for a couple of hours. And yeah, it's mostly just conversational stuff, but and then we'd go back and we'd spend the evening with the family. We'd talk and have food. And in Fiji, the evening social life usually resolves around, revolves around drinking kava, which is a drink they call yagona in Fiji, which is the root of a plant that they pound into a powder and then strain in water, you know, strain through a cloth. Not alcoholic or anything. Just has kind of a mild effect.\n\nBut all of the people in Fiji, whether they're Fijian or Indian or whatever, typically drink this stuff at night. And back then in '74, there wasn't a lot of other entertainment. You know, they had radio, there was no television or a lot to do. So the evenings, people would gather at their friend's house and sit around and drink kava and play cards and tell stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell stories."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tell stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were they, were they likely telling stories using English or Hindi in the storytelling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, it was a mix. Let's see, if you, this second homestay was in a town not too far out. Nowadays it's less than an hour drive, back then I think it was about two and a half hours. But the further you get out of town, the more people will just speak in their own language, especially if it's only Indians or only Fijians in the place. So I think, I think there would speak more Hindi, which was good because, you know, we're learning, getting indoctrinated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So your language is gaining. So what other things did you do in training? What other, um, did you have courses. Did you have work to do? Physical work or other kinds of work?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.559861635467671, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tell stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were they, were they likely telling stories using English or Hindi in the storytelling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, it was a mix. Let's see, if you, this second homestay was in a town not too far out. Nowadays it's less than an hour drive, back then I think it was about two and a half hours. But the further you get out of town, the more people will just speak in their own language, especially if it's only Indians or only Fijians in the place. So I think, I think there would speak more Hindi, which was good because, you know, we're learning, getting indoctrinated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So your language is gaining. So what other things did you do in training? What other, um, did you have courses. Did you have work to do? Physical work or other kinds of work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, not for those of us that were on the technical side. So our training lasted 60 days and then we went to our assignments. The teachers had another 30 days where they actually went and did some student teaching, I think, or, you know, they went to sites and actually spent time in the classrooms. But the few of us that were engineers or architects or whatever technical job we had, we finished a month, we finished training a month before they did, and just went straight to our work site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are we ready to look at the work setting now?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.73317959496408, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, it was a mix. Let's see, if you, this second homestay was in a town not too far out. Nowadays it's less than an hour drive, back then I think it was about two and a half hours. But the further you get out of town, the more people will just speak in their own language, especially if it's only Indians or only Fijians in the place. So I think, I think there would speak more Hindi, which was good because, you know, we're learning, getting indoctrinated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So your language is gaining. So what other things did you do in training? What other, um, did you have courses. Did you have work to do? Physical work or other kinds of work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, not for those of us that were on the technical side. So our training lasted 60 days and then we went to our assignments. The teachers had another 30 days where they actually went and did some student teaching, I think, or, you know, they went to sites and actually spent time in the classrooms. But the few of us that were engineers or architects or whatever technical job we had, we finished a month, we finished training a month before they did, and just went straight to our work site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are we ready to look at the work setting now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your assignment. Where were you assigned? And were you assigned with anyone else in the group or were you assigned to a particular, say, host country national that you worked side by side with or that you collaborated with? What was your assignment like? Where did it take you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.5652981139281295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think it was any particular incident, and I think it was just going to work every day and doing my job, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Showing up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Showing up and doing something, you know. And I would have, I would have preferred, you know, if I could have done something like where I could have trained people or taught at a technical school or something like that, but it didn't work out that way. So I just made the best of what I could there. So I worked on a team with, uh, there was one architect from the UK, David Pollard, and an intern architect. It was a local Indian guy, Subhan Ali. And we worked on the design of a maternity wing for the main hospital in Fiji. It's S-U-B-H-A-N."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "S-U-B-H?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "H-A-N. Yeah, and we, and the three of us got to be very good friends. In fact, I'm still friends with Subhan. He's in Australia, but we reconnected through Facebook a while back so we're still friends. Yeah, I don't know where David's at. He kind of disappeared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're working on a maternity clinic? Or maternity hospital?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.294775682142366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Showing up and doing something, you know. And I would have, I would have preferred, you know, if I could have done something like where I could have trained people or taught at a technical school or something like that, but it didn't work out that way. So I just made the best of what I could there. So I worked on a team with, uh, there was one architect from the UK, David Pollard, and an intern architect. It was a local Indian guy, Subhan Ali. And we worked on the design of a maternity wing for the main hospital in Fiji. It's S-U-B-H-A-N."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "S-U-B-H?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "H-A-N. Yeah, and we, and the three of us got to be very good friends. In fact, I'm still friends with Subhan. He's in Australia, but we reconnected through Facebook a while back so we're still friends. Yeah, I don't know where David's at. He kind of disappeared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're working on a maternity clinic? Or maternity hospital?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maternity wing for the main hospital, yeah. It was a pretty, pretty big addition to the hospital. And in addition to that, we did some smaller projects, rural nursing stations, where they would send a nurse out to work in some remote village. And they, she would, they would build a dispensary. It was a small building with the nurses quarters on one side and one or two rooms for a dispensary on the other side. So we would go out to the villages and survey the sites, and we had pretty much a standard design for those things. But back in those days, we were doing things manually. It wasn't, you didn't pull up a set of plans on your computer in front of you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Each one had to be drawn."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.105306313491518, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "H-A-N. Yeah, and we, and the three of us got to be very good friends. In fact, I'm still friends with Subhan. He's in Australia, but we reconnected through Facebook a while back so we're still friends. Yeah, I don't know where David's at. He kind of disappeared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're working on a maternity clinic? Or maternity hospital?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maternity wing for the main hospital, yeah. It was a pretty, pretty big addition to the hospital. And in addition to that, we did some smaller projects, rural nursing stations, where they would send a nurse out to work in some remote village. And they, she would, they would build a dispensary. It was a small building with the nurses quarters on one side and one or two rooms for a dispensary on the other side. So we would go out to the villages and survey the sites, and we had pretty much a standard design for those things. But back in those days, we were doing things manually. It wasn't, you didn't pull up a set of plans on your computer in front of you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Each one had to be drawn."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So we were drawing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many of those, do you remember how many you worked on for those rural clinics?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.005895903879464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maternity wing for the main hospital, yeah. It was a pretty, pretty big addition to the hospital. And in addition to that, we did some smaller projects, rural nursing stations, where they would send a nurse out to work in some remote village. And they, she would, they would build a dispensary. It was a small building with the nurses quarters on one side and one or two rooms for a dispensary on the other side. So we would go out to the villages and survey the sites, and we had pretty much a standard design for those things. But back in those days, we were doing things manually. It wasn't, you didn't pull up a set of plans on your computer in front of you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Each one had to be drawn."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So we were drawing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many of those, do you remember how many you worked on for those rural clinics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, probably half a dozen or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is this a project that the Brits had started, or was this a project that the Fijians had done after they got independent, that they started working on these medical clinics?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.118390004789463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, probably half a dozen or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is this a project that the Brits had started, or was this a project that the Fijians had done after they got independent, that they started working on these medical clinics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I don't know. You know, the maternity wing was something that was built with aid from the UK so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I'm sure that they, you know, they had a lot to do with getting that project started. I'm not sure about the clinics, whether that was. It was probably a carryover from the British time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what year was Fiji made? Did it gain its independence?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.24265556087718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I don't know. You know, the maternity wing was something that was built with aid from the UK so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I'm sure that they, you know, they had a lot to do with getting that project started. I'm not sure about the clinics, whether that was. It was probably a carryover from the British time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what year was Fiji made? Did it gain its independence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "1970."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "1970. And you were there four years later, right? 1974. Right. I've gotten us off the track here a little bit. But it's relevant, I think, because you were at in Fiji at a very pivotal time for the country and you were able to make a contribution working side by side."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 12.645253778860717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "1970."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "1970. And you were there four years later, right? 1974. Right. I've gotten us off the track here a little bit. But it's relevant, I think, because you were at in Fiji at a very pivotal time for the country and you were able to make a contribution working side by side."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So at the Peace Corps Connect, one of the speakers said something about service not being about the job. And that's I think that's especially true in my case. Like I said, since I've worked in a job where I wasn't really providing training, I was just a coworker with the guys. So I guess I was making an impression, you know, as an American there. But I think mainly the important part of my experience was the community that I lived in, you know, and not so much the job. You know, because I became very close to the people in the neighborhood where I lived and some of the families there, you know, and we're so close today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was, yeah, that was to me that was probably had more impact than the job itself. Well, it was these personal relationships with the guys at work, David, Subhan, and the other folks I worked with, but then the people that I lived with in the neighborhood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the people you lived with. First, where did you live? Were you in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.204017010939156, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was, yeah, that was to me that was probably had more impact than the job itself. Well, it was these personal relationships with the guys at work, David, Subhan, and the other folks I worked with, but then the people that I lived with in the neighborhood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the people you lived with. First, where did you live? Were you in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived just, you know, Suva is the biggest city in Fiji, and I lived in a suburb of Suva that's three miles outside of town. So hence it was called Three Miles. Yeah. And there were two other volunteers. We lived in a quarters that was built, actually built by the U.S. Army in World War II. There was a camp where the U.S. did some staging and training for the Pacific Theater out there, and they actually had Fijian, Fijian military working side by side with them, you know, as scouts. So this camp was where some of those U.S., or this place where I lived was the former U.S. camp there in Suva.\n\nAnd now these buildings were left behind. The Public Works Department owned them and they were vacant. So might as well put the Peace Corps volunteers there, right? So three of us that worked in the Public Works Department lived in a house out there. There was, the other two were engineers. One was a civil engineer and the other a mechanical engineer. So the civil engineer was working in the same building as me in Suva. And the third guy, Tom Anderson, spent most of his time on the western side of the island. So he wasn't home very often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was he also involved in public works?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But he was actually working on commissioning the hospital on the other side of the island. So he was away most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Tom Anderson was one volunteer who lived with you. And who was the other one?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.893848161653278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But he was actually working on commissioning the hospital on the other side of the island. So he was away most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Tom Anderson was one volunteer who lived with you. And who was the other one?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Allen Hee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "H-E-E."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 9.882053512948087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Allen Hee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "H-E-E."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They both got in there before me. I think they were in the one or two groups before me, so they were already settled in when I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So tell us about how you ingratiated yourself, how you became so, so connected really to the neighbors or your community there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.206452542216259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The bus stop."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then I was thinking back of a situation that happened just a couple of weeks before. Similar thing, but with some older guys that weren't quite as drunk. But again, they invited me to go somewhere with them and I was kind of making excuses. And the guy told me, he says, when somebody invites you in Fiji, when somebody invites you, always go because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know who you're going to meet, you don't know what's going to happen. And he said, next time is no time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So who told you that? This was a local Fijian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And this happened a couple of weeks before that. So I kind of remember that and I thought, well, OK, what the heck? So I went upstairs with these guys and there was a flat above the State Theater where some Fijian people were staying and the local guys were hanging out there. They'd go there and drink kava at night. So that's how I met and became friends with these guys in the community who, you know, I'd seen them around or they had seen me. But this is the first time we actually sat down and, you know, drank kava together and had a conversation. So it was kind of fortuitous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was your conversation in English or in Hindi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.896058380240287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then I was thinking back of a situation that happened just a couple of weeks before. Similar thing, but with some older guys that weren't quite as drunk. But again, they invited me to go somewhere with them and I was kind of making excuses. And the guy told me, he says, when somebody invites you in Fiji, when somebody invites you, always go because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know who you're going to meet, you don't know what's going to happen. And he said, next time is no time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So who told you that? This was a local Fijian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And this happened a couple of weeks before that. So I kind of remember that and I thought, well, OK, what the heck? So I went upstairs with these guys and there was a flat above the State Theater where some Fijian people were staying and the local guys were hanging out there. They'd go there and drink kava at night. So that's how I met and became friends with these guys in the community who, you know, I'd seen them around or they had seen me. But this is the first time we actually sat down and, you know, drank kava together and had a conversation. So it was kind of fortuitous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was your conversation in English or in Hindi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Again, like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or a combination?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.551175978044763, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And this happened a couple of weeks before that. So I kind of remember that and I thought, well, OK, what the heck? So I went upstairs with these guys and there was a flat above the State Theater where some Fijian people were staying and the local guys were hanging out there. They'd go there and drink kava at night. So that's how I met and became friends with these guys in the community who, you know, I'd seen them around or they had seen me. But this is the first time we actually sat down and, you know, drank kava together and had a conversation. So it was kind of fortuitous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was your conversation in English or in Hindi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Again, like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or a combination?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this neighborhood, we had Indians, Fijians, half caste, Rotumans, Chinese all hanging out together in the evening. So typically, you know, everybody spoke English and there were bits and pieces of Fijian and Hindi thrown in because people will, everybody speaks a little bit of whatever. But English was the common language. Yeah. So they're up there that night, you know, I went up there and we drank kava or grog as it's commonly known there. And you know, and I met a lot of the local people in the neighborhood and we got to be friends. And, well, a lot of them are no longer with us, but some of them are. I'm still friends with even now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they? And they still live in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.976760466721929, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this neighborhood, we had Indians, Fijians, half caste, Rotumans, Chinese all hanging out together in the evening. So typically, you know, everybody spoke English and there were bits and pieces of Fijian and Hindi thrown in because people will, everybody speaks a little bit of whatever. But English was the common language. Yeah. So they're up there that night, you know, I went up there and we drank kava or grog as it's commonly known there. And you know, and I met a lot of the local people in the neighborhood and we got to be friends. And, well, a lot of them are no longer with us, but some of them are. I'm still friends with even now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they? And they still live in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not all of them, no. No, actually, not many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not many."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not many people are still back there in Fiji. One in particular is in Sacramento. So there was one family that in particular that I was close to. There were three brothers that were kind of around my age and a couple of younger brothers. And so two of those brothers have passed away that were near my age. The younger one lives in Sacramento. But on this last trip that I was in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.6408449630243656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not all of them, no. No, actually, not many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not many."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not many people are still back there in Fiji. One in particular is in Sacramento. So there was one family that in particular that I was close to. There were three brothers that were kind of around my age and a couple of younger brothers. And so two of those brothers have passed away that were near my age. The younger one lives in Sacramento. But on this last trip that I was in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was in June."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "June of 2018?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.156494403360406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not many people are still back there in Fiji. One in particular is in Sacramento. So there was one family that in particular that I was close to. There were three brothers that were kind of around my age and a couple of younger brothers. And so two of those brothers have passed away that were near my age. The younger one lives in Sacramento. But on this last trip that I was in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was in June."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "June of 2018?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, June of 2018. I had gone to see the wife of one of the guys who died, you know, and I found out that a younger brother. Now this guy was just like 12 or 13 when, you know, but he was just one of the younger kids that, he used to hang around. But I found out that he was back in Fiji and he had gone to Canada for some time, but he was back in Fiji. And so she called him up and he got all excited and wanted me to come out to his place in Navua, which is just a little bit out of Suva. So I did and we had a really good time. I'll tell you, it was great. Like I said, he was a lot younger than us, so we didn't really hang out back then. But he still felt close to me, you know, just being part of the family. And you know, now that we're grown up, I actually, this trip I really felt a strong connection with him. You know, I felt like if he were my age at that time, you know, I would have been as good a friend with him as his brothers. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What things did he remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.286837987136726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, the guys that I lived with in the house?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Not, I guess not as extensively as I did. But they did. Yeah. Because the guys would come over to my house, you know, after a while, you know, they would come over to our house and we would drink kava and play cards there and stuff. So yeah. So I guess that experience actually got, I got them more integrated in the community too. Then they got to know these people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Have you ever."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6520422079296955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Not, I guess not as extensively as I did. But they did. Yeah. Because the guys would come over to my house, you know, after a while, you know, they would come over to our house and we would drink kava and play cards there and stuff. So yeah. So I guess that experience actually got, I got them more integrated in the community too. Then they got to know these people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Have you ever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I was, you know, maybe the difference between me and them is, you know, they wouldn't have gone off with these drunk guys and I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were more adventuresome from the get-go."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.057824675477439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Have you ever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I was, you know, maybe the difference between me and them is, you know, they wouldn't have gone off with these drunk guys and I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were more adventuresome from the get-go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, coming from your childhood."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 4.508694083863822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I was, you know, maybe the difference between me and them is, you know, they wouldn't have gone off with these drunk guys and I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were more adventuresome from the get-go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, coming from your childhood."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I feel comfortable in a lot of situations, you know, so. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just asking in terms of now, what is this, 40 years later? Yeah. Are you in touch with either of those two other volunteers? And have you ever talked with them about this experience of being socializing with the locals?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.862585288720768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I feel comfortable in a lot of situations, you know, so. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just asking in terms of now, what is this, 40 years later? Yeah. Are you in touch with either of those two other volunteers? And have you ever talked with them about this experience of being socializing with the locals?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I saw Alan one time. Alan's from Hawaii and I got in touch with him one time when I was passing through there, which was probably in the nineties, I think maybe. But no, I'm not in regular contact with him. And Tom, I don't know. I've tried to look Tom up, but I don't have his address or any contact information, so I haven't talked to him since then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, we weren't. We weren't terribly close, you know, we just, we shared a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you shared a house. So I was going to ask, the quarters where you were living that was then built by the U.S. Government, owned by the federal works department. Was that, were the local people also living in those same quarters? Or were these, was your bus stop near that, those quarters and another community? In other words, how incorporated were those quarters, those U.S. built quarters, into the community?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.183244566146458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, it was pretty close. I mean it was a, it was a small, you know, it wasn't the entire base anymore, but there was a small cluster of buildings there, and some of it was being used by the South Pacific Commission. They had some classroom buildings there. Ours was one building that wasn't being used, but it was right next to residences of local people. There's no fence or any separation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was right there in the community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they lived in similar houses. This was just an old wood frame building with clapboard siding, single wall construction. So you had wood boards on the outside, but no finish on the inside, bare studs, and a tin roof, you know, which was pretty much the way the local houses were built."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Did you have running water to the building itself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4607957606746391, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they lived in similar houses. This was just an old wood frame building with clapboard siding, single wall construction. So you had wood boards on the outside, but no finish on the inside, bare studs, and a tin roof, you know, which was pretty much the way the local houses were built."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Did you have running water to the building itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, there was a separate kitchen and bathroom building outside. Yeah. And that had running water. Yeah, we were in town. Yes. We had a few luxuries that people in the village didn't. We actually had running water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had electricity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8034515563884432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had electricity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a kerosene boiler that was for washing clothes. It didn't have an agitator, but it would heat the, it would heat water and you would stir your clothes around with a stick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a luxury."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did the machine part."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0038350626538257, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a kerosene boiler that was for washing clothes. It didn't have an agitator, but it would heat the, it would heat water and you would stir your clothes around with a stick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a luxury."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did the machine part."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a refrigerator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a refrigerator. So was that run by kerosene also or was that electricity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2264834029486953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a luxury."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did the machine part."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a refrigerator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a refrigerator. So was that run by kerosene also or was that electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was electric."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had electricity to your house."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4738704477207722, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a refrigerator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a refrigerator. So was that run by kerosene also or was that electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was electric."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had electricity to your house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.748744941911969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was electric."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had electricity to your house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There were some advantages to living in town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, yes, indeed, indeed. So I love the story about your meeting your peers, if you will. And how were those men gainfully employed? Did they have jobs, most of them, or were they?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0541610465688547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There were some advantages to living in town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, yes, indeed, indeed. So I love the story about your meeting your peers, if you will. And how were those men gainfully employed? Did they have jobs, most of them, or were they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did. Some didn't. Yeah. Yeah, it was a mix. Some people worked on and off. Some people did different. You know, that's, and that's the thing in Fiji, it's um. They're usually some are related. Some are just friends in the community. But it didn't matter whether you had a job or didn't have a job, whether you had money or you didn't have money, you were just part of the group. So some people contributed to buying the kava, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And some didn't."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.7705691932948824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did. Some didn't. Yeah. Yeah, it was a mix. Some people worked on and off. Some people did different. You know, that's, and that's the thing in Fiji, it's um. They're usually some are related. Some are just friends in the community. But it didn't matter whether you had a job or didn't have a job, whether you had money or you didn't have money, you were just part of the group. So some people contributed to buying the kava, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And some didn't."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some people didn't. But it didn't really matter, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things were cheap at those times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular incident that you remember by which you became invited into one of their family homes? Was that, or was that just a kind of fluid and it just happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0784102147720915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some people didn't. But it didn't really matter, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things were cheap at those times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular incident that you remember by which you became invited into one of their family homes? Was that, or was that just a kind of fluid and it just happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was just kind of fluid. Like I said, I became real good friends with a couple of guys in particular that happened to be brothers. So I ended up spending a lot of time with their family and you know, over at their place. It was back and forth, you know, they were at my place, I was at theirs. I remember, this is kind of a funny story, but one time one of the guys, Jan, he was over at my house and I was cooking. I don't know. I think I made a pot of chili or something. And so I invited Jan to eat with me and we're sitting there. And then I looked at him and he had tears in his eyes. And he says, I never ate with a white man before. And I go, really? It's not that big a deal. But, you know, and you don't realize that kind of stuff, like how important it was to him. But you know, like I said, you know, it's not that big a deal, you know, but it was a big deal to him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did he, was he able to tell you why it was a big deal or did he just make that observation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.420455794191213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things were cheap at those times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular incident that you remember by which you became invited into one of their family homes? Was that, or was that just a kind of fluid and it just happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was just kind of fluid. Like I said, I became real good friends with a couple of guys in particular that happened to be brothers. So I ended up spending a lot of time with their family and you know, over at their place. It was back and forth, you know, they were at my place, I was at theirs. I remember, this is kind of a funny story, but one time one of the guys, Jan, he was over at my house and I was cooking. I don't know. I think I made a pot of chili or something. And so I invited Jan to eat with me and we're sitting there. And then I looked at him and he had tears in his eyes. And he says, I never ate with a white man before. And I go, really? It's not that big a deal. But, you know, and you don't realize that kind of stuff, like how important it was to him. But you know, like I said, you know, it's not that big a deal, you know, but it was a big deal to him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did he, was he able to tell you why it was a big deal or did he just make that observation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that pretty much just say, you know, just like I said, they didn't expect the Europeans to live with them. You know, there was always, there was always a different class of people, right? But then it got to be kind of a regular thing. And the guys, they liked it when I made chili or made spaghetti or."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that they probably had never tasted before."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.6919832567780695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I'm not that great a cook, but you know. And their grandmother would always send stuff over for me, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Aw, nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And like these older Indian women, they don't expect to see, you know, a man living by himself. And they're worried, you know, who's feeding him and who's taking care of, you know, who's doing this and that? So they would always send the boys over with roti and curry and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they wanted you to be healthy too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.21331472975341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I'm not that great a cook, but you know. And their grandmother would always send stuff over for me, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Aw, nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And like these older Indian women, they don't expect to see, you know, a man living by himself. And they're worried, you know, who's feeding him and who's taking care of, you know, who's doing this and that? So they would always send the boys over with roti and curry and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they wanted you to be healthy too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you modeled a different behavior for men by doing your own cooking?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.792571921948233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And like these older Indian women, they don't expect to see, you know, a man living by himself. And they're worried, you know, who's feeding him and who's taking care of, you know, who's doing this and that? So they would always send the boys over with roti and curry and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they wanted you to be healthy too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you modeled a different behavior for men by doing your own cooking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, maybe, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You demonstrated a different approach to life. Yeah. So, well, this, these are great, great stories. And it sounds like you've sort of moved through the first year and into the second year. And was your second year any different than the first year for you or did it all kind of blend?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.436191024386925, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you modeled a different behavior for men by doing your own cooking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, maybe, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You demonstrated a different approach to life. Yeah. So, well, this, these are great, great stories. And it sounds like you've sort of moved through the first year and into the second year. And was your second year any different than the first year for you or did it all kind of blend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, by the second year, I really was pretty comfortable there. You know, like I said, I'd gotten into this routine of hanging out with the guys in the evening. I was probably drinking way too much kava, but yeah, that was, like I said, that was the social life. I just happened to have a high tolerance for it, which was maybe a good thing and maybe a bad thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you said it's not alcohol?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.94591484492213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, by the second year, I really was pretty comfortable there. You know, like I said, I'd gotten into this routine of hanging out with the guys in the evening. I was probably drinking way too much kava, but yeah, that was, like I said, that was the social life. I just happened to have a high tolerance for it, which was maybe a good thing and maybe a bad thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you said it's not alcohol?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's not, no, it's not alcoholic, but it has a mild kind of narcotic effect. You know, a good thing about it, as opposed to alcohol, it doesn't wind people up or, you know, in fact, it calms you down. So you never have any, you don't have arguments or fights or anything with people drinking kava, which is pretty common when people are drinking alcohol."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was one of the good things about it. But when you drink a lot of it, you can get, uh, you can get a condition like, they call it kanikani, which where your skin starts to get scaly and crack. And I actually got that. That's how much I drank so. I got kanikani, your face would. It started out like here on your face. And when the cold weather would start and your skin would crack, and you'd get it on your arms. And it probably wasn't really healthy, which is, it's probably good that I left after two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you recognize these symptoms when they appeared on your own body?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.8287942721357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's not, no, it's not alcoholic, but it has a mild kind of narcotic effect. You know, a good thing about it, as opposed to alcohol, it doesn't wind people up or, you know, in fact, it calms you down. So you never have any, you don't have arguments or fights or anything with people drinking kava, which is pretty common when people are drinking alcohol."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was one of the good things about it. But when you drink a lot of it, you can get, uh, you can get a condition like, they call it kanikani, which where your skin starts to get scaly and crack. And I actually got that. That's how much I drank so. I got kanikani, your face would. It started out like here on your face. And when the cold weather would start and your skin would crack, and you'd get it on your arms. And it probably wasn't really healthy, which is, it's probably good that I left after two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you recognize these symptoms when they appeared on your own body?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you chastise yourself or decide to change your behavior or did it not make that difference?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.899746014982345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you chastise yourself or decide to change your behavior or did it not make that difference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, no. It was kind of a, it was kind of a medal, you know, it was like it made me unique, you know, that I, uh. You know, here again, I was an American, but I was, uh, living that culture to the extent that I, you know, I got this condition. But the whole kava drinking thing's a different, different story. It's very common in Fiji. In fact, it's not. It's gotten to be a problem, problematic, because people get kind of addicted to it. And then they don't take care of their families. They don't go to work, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although back then, it was a good, it was a good social life and a good way to mingle with the local community. Overall, it's not really a good thing to do in excess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it, did you experience any effect it had on your work life?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.555273349980382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, no. It was kind of a, it was kind of a medal, you know, it was like it made me unique, you know, that I, uh. You know, here again, I was an American, but I was, uh, living that culture to the extent that I, you know, I got this condition. But the whole kava drinking thing's a different, different story. It's very common in Fiji. In fact, it's not. It's gotten to be a problem, problematic, because people get kind of addicted to it. And then they don't take care of their families. They don't go to work, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although back then, it was a good, it was a good social life and a good way to mingle with the local community. Overall, it's not really a good thing to do in excess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it, did you experience any effect it had on your work life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. You know, I was young. I could stay up till the wee hours and still go to work in the morning. In fact, we used to, it was a tradition at work actually. The architect section was one of the last bastions of kava drinking. But we actually had a bowl in the office every morning and every afternoon. It was common. If you'd go out on a worksite, a construction site, to do an inspection, somebody would run up to you with a bucket, a bowl of grog, and I was going out all day long. So it was real common."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So describe what it is that you drank it from. How was it served?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.283637055533758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although back then, it was a good, it was a good social life and a good way to mingle with the local community. Overall, it's not really a good thing to do in excess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it, did you experience any effect it had on your work life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. You know, I was young. I could stay up till the wee hours and still go to work in the morning. In fact, we used to, it was a tradition at work actually. The architect section was one of the last bastions of kava drinking. But we actually had a bowl in the office every morning and every afternoon. It was common. If you'd go out on a worksite, a construction site, to do an inspection, somebody would run up to you with a bucket, a bowl of grog, and I was going out all day long. So it was real common."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So describe what it is that you drank it from. How was it served?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's usually served in a coconut shell, you know, that's scraped smooth and clean and, you know, you mix it. Traditionally, they'll mix it in a big wooden bowl called a tanoa that's carved out of one particular tree in Fiji. But in a town where people might not have that, they would mix it in anything. They'd mix it in a stainless steel basin, you know, a big bowl or a plastic basin or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then they'd dip it with a coconut shell?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 8.092930061704175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. You know, I was young. I could stay up till the wee hours and still go to work in the morning. In fact, we used to, it was a tradition at work actually. The architect section was one of the last bastions of kava drinking. But we actually had a bowl in the office every morning and every afternoon. It was common. If you'd go out on a worksite, a construction site, to do an inspection, somebody would run up to you with a bucket, a bowl of grog, and I was going out all day long. So it was real common."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So describe what it is that you drank it from. How was it served?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's usually served in a coconut shell, you know, that's scraped smooth and clean and, you know, you mix it. Traditionally, they'll mix it in a big wooden bowl called a tanoa that's carved out of one particular tree in Fiji. But in a town where people might not have that, they would mix it in anything. They'd mix it in a stainless steel basin, you know, a big bowl or a plastic basin or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then they'd dip it with a coconut shell?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and everybody drinks from the same cup."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From the same coconut shell? Right. Right. So that reminds me of a question. What about sanitation and infections or sicknesses? Did you ever feel that you were, that you suffered digestive problems or something because of the kava being not sanitary or not filtered or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.189955893467727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you could walk across in a day or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and visit the villages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Explore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, explore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the villages probably hadn't seen very many white men."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.544395437186363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and visit the villages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Explore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, explore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the villages probably hadn't seen very many white men."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. So then the work that you did was pretty much consistent through the two years."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.938217152429292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, explore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the villages probably hadn't seen very many white men."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. So then the work that you did was pretty much consistent through the two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working with the Federal Works Department and doing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.3757968360325465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. So then the work that you did was pretty much consistent through the two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working with the Federal Works Department and doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Public Works."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Public Works, excuse me, and working on designs that they needed to do for their commitments. Right. Right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.861996484480607, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working with the Federal Works Department and doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Public Works."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Public Works, excuse me, and working on designs that they needed to do for their commitments. Right. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. The work stayed pretty constant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And anything memorable about additional Peace Corps volunteers who came or did you meet more volunteers coming into the country or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.122722627784732, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty harmonious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. A lot of good people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, there's still a few people in my group that I'm in touch with now, especially while being part of Friends of Fiji, that keeps me, gives me a reason to communicate more often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So some Peace Corps volunteers had what are called secondary projects beyond their primary assignment."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.914136253094147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. A lot of good people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, there's still a few people in my group that I'm in touch with now, especially while being part of Friends of Fiji, that keeps me, gives me a reason to communicate more often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So some Peace Corps volunteers had what are called secondary projects beyond their primary assignment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had. They either their communities asked them to work on other kinds of projects, or they took on other kinds of projects. Did you have anything like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.793484725660162, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, there's still a few people in my group that I'm in touch with now, especially while being part of Friends of Fiji, that keeps me, gives me a reason to communicate more often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So some Peace Corps volunteers had what are called secondary projects beyond their primary assignment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had. They either their communities asked them to work on other kinds of projects, or they took on other kinds of projects. Did you have anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Right. So it's getting close now in our conversation to the time where you will probably are ready to depart country. Your assignment is about over."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.770538584066847, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had. They either their communities asked them to work on other kinds of projects, or they took on other kinds of projects. Did you have anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Right. So it's getting close now in our conversation to the time where you will probably are ready to depart country. Your assignment is about over."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where? What were you thinking about then? And what did you do? What were your plans as it came close to a time to leave, which would have been in 1976?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.633931760074274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Right. So it's getting close now in our conversation to the time where you will probably are ready to depart country. Your assignment is about over."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where? What were you thinking about then? And what did you do? What were your plans as it came close to a time to leave, which would have been in 1976?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the end of '76. Oh, boy. You know, I would have, actually I would have liked to extend for a year, but my mother was, uh, my mother had open heart surgery. She wasn't doing real well at that time, so I thought I'd better go home. It was a hard time. Like, you know, after two years, I'd gotten really close with some of the people there in the country so. But I think it was time to go also, you know. So although I, you know, I was sad to leave, I think it was a good time to go. If I had had maybe a different kind of job, or if I had a secondary type of project I might have, it might have been more reason to stay longer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you had mixed feelings about leaving."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.659175012437375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the end of '76. Oh, boy. You know, I would have, actually I would have liked to extend for a year, but my mother was, uh, my mother had open heart surgery. She wasn't doing real well at that time, so I thought I'd better go home. It was a hard time. Like, you know, after two years, I'd gotten really close with some of the people there in the country so. But I think it was time to go also, you know. So although I, you know, I was sad to leave, I think it was a good time to go. If I had had maybe a different kind of job, or if I had a secondary type of project I might have, it might have been more reason to stay longer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you had mixed feelings about leaving."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, even now looking back, I wish I had stayed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But at the time, no, it seemed like it was time to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, OK. Take us home with you and tell us what you did when you got home. Or was there something memorable you want to say yet about the time in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.732416680485972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, even now looking back, I wish I had stayed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But at the time, no, it seemed like it was time to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, OK. Take us home with you and tell us what you did when you got home. Or was there something memorable you want to say yet about the time in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About the time in Fiji? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I, uh. I think, you know, like I said, I think I'd been there for two years. It seemed like a lifetime, really, you know, and was maybe a little too integrated into the local social life there and customs. So it was probably good for my health that I left at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had gone native?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.92490742276219, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But at the time, no, it seemed like it was time to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, OK. Take us home with you and tell us what you did when you got home. Or was there something memorable you want to say yet about the time in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About the time in Fiji? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I, uh. I think, you know, like I said, I think I'd been there for two years. It seemed like a lifetime, really, you know, and was maybe a little too integrated into the local social life there and customs. So it was probably good for my health that I left at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had gone native?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we say, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.249897136402433, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About the time in Fiji? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I, uh. I think, you know, like I said, I think I'd been there for two years. It seemed like a lifetime, really, you know, and was maybe a little too integrated into the local social life there and customs. So it was probably good for my health that I left at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had gone native?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we say, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I've neglected to talk about my wife so far, but I didn't. I met my wife in Fiji. She lived in the neighborhood there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty important, Jay!"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.610996818224926, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we say, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I've neglected to talk about my wife so far, but I didn't. I met my wife in Fiji. She lived in the neighborhood there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty important, Jay!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't get married there. We didn't get married there. And we corresponded for a while afterwards. And then she came to the States later on and we got married in the U.S."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Congratulations. So you brought home the ultimate souvenir."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.012218686916585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I've neglected to talk about my wife so far, but I didn't. I met my wife in Fiji. She lived in the neighborhood there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty important, Jay!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't get married there. We didn't get married there. And we corresponded for a while afterwards. And then she came to the States later on and we got married in the U.S."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Congratulations. So you brought home the ultimate souvenir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ultimate souvenir? Yeah. And it's that there's, you know, our kids, you know, which I look at my kids and I think, well, if I'd never gone to Fiji, then these guys wouldn't be here, you know, and that. If you ever second guess your ideas or wonder whether you made the right decision or not, you just have to look at your kids and think, well, if things had been different, then they wouldn't have been here. And that wouldn't have been, it would've been a whole different world. So I'm really happy about that. Yeah, so my wife and I have been married for 40 years now. And yeah, that's good. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we can't let you leave Fiji without your telling us how you met your wife."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.235798541018427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't get married there. We didn't get married there. And we corresponded for a while afterwards. And then she came to the States later on and we got married in the U.S."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Congratulations. So you brought home the ultimate souvenir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ultimate souvenir? Yeah. And it's that there's, you know, our kids, you know, which I look at my kids and I think, well, if I'd never gone to Fiji, then these guys wouldn't be here, you know, and that. If you ever second guess your ideas or wonder whether you made the right decision or not, you just have to look at your kids and think, well, if things had been different, then they wouldn't have been here. And that wouldn't have been, it would've been a whole different world. So I'm really happy about that. Yeah, so my wife and I have been married for 40 years now. And yeah, that's good. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we can't let you leave Fiji without your telling us how you met your wife."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it was. She was just living there in the neighborhood, you know, so through these guys, the friends that I met, you know, they introduced me to her and her father. Actually, her father was Gilbertese from Kiribati, Tarawa. Or Tarawa. And immigrated to Fiji. So she's part Gilbertese. And he was a great guy. So we used to go sometimes after work and have a couple of beers with him. It was always fun to hang out at their place and that's how we got to know each other. It wasn't, you know, there was no big romantic story behind it. We just got to know each other and liked each other. And like I said, we kept corresponding afterwards and then she came to the States and we got married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did she come to the States with the intention that she was going to marry you? Or did she just come so that you could see one another again?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.595331712242697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ultimate souvenir? Yeah. And it's that there's, you know, our kids, you know, which I look at my kids and I think, well, if I'd never gone to Fiji, then these guys wouldn't be here, you know, and that. If you ever second guess your ideas or wonder whether you made the right decision or not, you just have to look at your kids and think, well, if things had been different, then they wouldn't have been here. And that wouldn't have been, it would've been a whole different world. So I'm really happy about that. Yeah, so my wife and I have been married for 40 years now. And yeah, that's good. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we can't let you leave Fiji without your telling us how you met your wife."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it was. She was just living there in the neighborhood, you know, so through these guys, the friends that I met, you know, they introduced me to her and her father. Actually, her father was Gilbertese from Kiribati, Tarawa. Or Tarawa. And immigrated to Fiji. So she's part Gilbertese. And he was a great guy. So we used to go sometimes after work and have a couple of beers with him. It was always fun to hang out at their place and that's how we got to know each other. It wasn't, you know, there was no big romantic story behind it. We just got to know each other and liked each other. And like I said, we kept corresponding afterwards and then she came to the States and we got married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did she come to the States with the intention that she was going to marry you? Or did she just come so that you could see one another again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think with the intention of getting married, right? Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.105924124714107, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it was. She was just living there in the neighborhood, you know, so through these guys, the friends that I met, you know, they introduced me to her and her father. Actually, her father was Gilbertese from Kiribati, Tarawa. Or Tarawa. And immigrated to Fiji. So she's part Gilbertese. And he was a great guy. So we used to go sometimes after work and have a couple of beers with him. It was always fun to hang out at their place and that's how we got to know each other. It wasn't, you know, there was no big romantic story behind it. We just got to know each other and liked each other. And like I said, we kept corresponding afterwards and then she came to the States and we got married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did she come to the States with the intention that she was going to marry you? Or did she just come so that you could see one another again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think with the intention of getting married, right? Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you know, that kind of. It's a different kind of environment than we have. You know, where you hang out with your friends, you know, you don't go on dates and stuff so much. So that's, we just met like that, you know, hanging out, became close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So then when you, again, you were sad to leave and you. But you felt like it was time for you to come home. And so what did you do then when you came home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.307477089170412, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's when I started preparing myself to take the exams. I'd had enough time in there by then that I could qualify, so I started studying on my own. It was kind of a, kind of a joke around the office because I was studying all the time. You know, we'd have a break and I'd go sit in the break room and I'd crack the books open and speed reading and all that stuff. But I had to cram all of this stuff into a few months that other people had spent five years in school learning, like teaching myself structural engineering and mechanical engineering theory and stuff like that. And the history was really a hard, hard thing, you know, there was a couple volumes of architectural history that I had to read through.\n\nSo anyway, I passed all the exams. And in California back then you actually had three sets of exams. You would take this first set, which was two days and included a 12 hour design problem where you actually had to bring in your own drawing board and tools and everything, and you had 12 hours to design this building and do all these drawings. Then after a couple of years after that, you could sit for what they call the professional exams, and after passing that you had to actually go in for an oral exam. So I did all that and finally got licensed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, there's two years between the qualifying exam and the professionals and then six months between the professionals and the oral exam. So it took several years, but I think I finally got licensed in 1983. Yeah. And yeah, so I worked in architecture various places doing all types of work from residential work to schools and hospitals. And the economy took a downturn in the early nineties in California. There wasn't any work. So I took a job back in the Marshall Islands working at a U.S. base there, but I was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a civilian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a civilian. I actually worked for Raytheon there, but I was a base architect on this little island called Kwajalein."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you took your family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.56386343241157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, there's two years between the qualifying exam and the professionals and then six months between the professionals and the oral exam. So it took several years, but I think I finally got licensed in 1983. Yeah. And yeah, so I worked in architecture various places doing all types of work from residential work to schools and hospitals. And the economy took a downturn in the early nineties in California. There wasn't any work. So I took a job back in the Marshall Islands working at a U.S. base there, but I was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a civilian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a civilian. I actually worked for Raytheon there, but I was a base architect on this little island called Kwajalein."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you took your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Took the family. We were there for six years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when, what was that, what years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.515403813790632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a civilian. I actually worked for Raytheon there, but I was a base architect on this little island called Kwajalein."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you took your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Took the family. We were there for six years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when, what was that, what years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "'92 to '98. And that was great. It was nice to be back in an island country, although it was a different, uh, different situation because we were on this, part of this American enclave there. It wasn't living in the community like Fiji was. But it was nice to be back in the islands, and from there I saw that the people working for the government had a better deal than I did. So I started applying for government jobs and got a job in Japan, working public works at a Marine Corps base. And we went there and stayed for seven years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what years were those?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.461559793100703, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Took the family. We were there for six years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when, what was that, what years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "'92 to '98. And that was great. It was nice to be back in an island country, although it was a different, uh, different situation because we were on this, part of this American enclave there. It wasn't living in the community like Fiji was. But it was nice to be back in the islands, and from there I saw that the people working for the government had a better deal than I did. So I started applying for government jobs and got a job in Japan, working public works at a Marine Corps base. And we went there and stayed for seven years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what years were those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was to 1998 to 2005. So this Peace Corps experience living overseas kind of started something. If I hadn't had that experience, then later in my life I might not have been so inclined to try to go overseas again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Opened doors for you that you hadn't even imagined when you filled out that application."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.512844214556337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "'92 to '98. And that was great. It was nice to be back in an island country, although it was a different, uh, different situation because we were on this, part of this American enclave there. It wasn't living in the community like Fiji was. But it was nice to be back in the islands, and from there I saw that the people working for the government had a better deal than I did. So I started applying for government jobs and got a job in Japan, working public works at a Marine Corps base. And we went there and stayed for seven years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what years were those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was to 1998 to 2005. So this Peace Corps experience living overseas kind of started something. If I hadn't had that experience, then later in my life I might not have been so inclined to try to go overseas again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Opened doors for you that you hadn't even imagined when you filled out that application."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Although, you know, ever since I was young, I always wanted to travel. I still want to travel, but I don't know if I would have had those experiences if I hadn't joined the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Right. Pretty exciting."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.680938016173707, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was to 1998 to 2005. So this Peace Corps experience living overseas kind of started something. If I hadn't had that experience, then later in my life I might not have been so inclined to try to go overseas again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Opened doors for you that you hadn't even imagined when you filled out that application."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Although, you know, ever since I was young, I always wanted to travel. I still want to travel, but I don't know if I would have had those experiences if I hadn't joined the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Right. Pretty exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've recently retired, is that what I remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.867708906859674, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Although, you know, ever since I was young, I always wanted to travel. I still want to travel, but I don't know if I would have had those experiences if I hadn't joined the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Right. Pretty exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've recently retired, is that what I remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired in July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In July? That's pretty recent. That was two months ago or less. Yes. And you retired from the U.S. government?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.075232118732972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've recently retired, is that what I remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired in July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In July? That's pretty recent. That was two months ago or less. Yes. And you retired from the U.S. government?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. From Department of Veterans Affairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just tell us a little bit about your family. You have a wife who's?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.90769397374441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. From Department of Veterans Affairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just tell us a little bit about your family. You have a wife who's?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From Fiji."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Raised in Fiji. And how many children do you have?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 16.564104415271565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From Fiji."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Raised in Fiji. And how many children do you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Four kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how old are they?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.29344935030174, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Raised in Fiji. And how many children do you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Four kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how old are they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. My oldest, Christopher, he was born in 1979, so he's actually 39 now. I've got three boys and a girl. The next is my daughter, Della, who is 34. And then we've got twin boys, Daniel and Dylan, who are 29. Actually, they're 28. They'll be 29 in January. And six grandkids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And six grandchildren, wow."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.0609730456813986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my oldest grandson is 18 now and I took the two oldest boys to Fiji with me in June, the 18 year old and a 15 year old grandson. And it was a great experience. One thing, they're great traveling companions because they're easy. You know, you don't have to worry much about them. They can take care of themselves. They'll sleep anywhere. They'll eat anything. But having the Fiji connection there. I mean, Fiji is in their DNA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my wife still has brothers and sisters living there in Fiji, so they got to meet their distant cousins. And when we went to Beqa Island to build the playground project, I was telling the Peace Corps volunteer there about their connection with, you know, my wife is connected to a different island, and all of these islands have a relationship. You know, they may be friends or they may be enemies, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was going through the lineage and her great, I guess great, great grandfather's name was Narokete. He was from this island called Kadavu. And she says, oh, we have two Narokete kids here at the school from Kadavu. So my grandsons and these two little kids somehow share a distant relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cousins at some level."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1788589396459983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my wife still has brothers and sisters living there in Fiji, so they got to meet their distant cousins. And when we went to Beqa Island to build the playground project, I was telling the Peace Corps volunteer there about their connection with, you know, my wife is connected to a different island, and all of these islands have a relationship. You know, they may be friends or they may be enemies, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was going through the lineage and her great, I guess great, great grandfather's name was Narokete. He was from this island called Kadavu. And she says, oh, we have two Narokete kids here at the school from Kadavu. So my grandsons and these two little kids somehow share a distant relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cousins at some level."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So she went and called those kids and tried to explain it to them and they weren't buying it. You know, these are your, this is your family there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They said, no, they're American."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4553814069703683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So she went and called those kids and tried to explain it to them and they weren't buying it. You know, these are your, this is your family there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They said, no, they're American."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were kind of confused. But I had brought three ukuleles with me down there that I was going to give away. So we all signed one of the ukuleles and gave it to the two boys so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so they'll remember us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Well, you've changed the lives of those two grandchildren. That's wonderful. So your four children are, shall we say, launched and doing their own things?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6170904521892981, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were kind of confused. But I had brought three ukuleles with me down there that I was going to give away. So we all signed one of the ukuleles and gave it to the two boys so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so they'll remember us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Well, you've changed the lives of those two grandchildren. That's wonderful. So your four children are, shall we say, launched and doing their own things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That's wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7967671690992202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so they'll remember us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Well, you've changed the lives of those two grandchildren. That's wonderful. So your four children are, shall we say, launched and doing their own things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That's wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, before we end this, is there anything else you want to add?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.46470119218, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. Yeah, well, just. I guess that, you know, this Peace Corps experience has obviously molded the rest of my life, especially, you know, having married a local and we've been connected to Fiji and to Peace Corps all this time. And now our kids and our grandkids also have this connection. So, you know, you can kind of second guess the decisions that you make in your life and whether, you know, your life would have been better one way or another if you had done this or done that. But obviously, I have no regrets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's, you know, I'm happy with the way everything's turned out. And my kids and grandkids and the connection. And I'm ready to do it again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's not too late."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7385568802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's, you know, I'm happy with the way everything's turned out. And my kids and grandkids and the connection. And I'm ready to do it again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's not too late."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, if I could do it again, I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Is your wife now a citizen?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.042840978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's, you know, I'm happy with the way everything's turned out. And my kids and grandkids and the connection. And I'm ready to do it again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's not too late."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, if I could do it again, I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Is your wife now a citizen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, she's been a citizen for some time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then you could go to the Peace Corps together."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.38093442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, if I could do it again, I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Is your wife now a citizen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, she's been a citizen for some time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then you could go to the Peace Corps together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Keep it in mind."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.7565938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, she's been a citizen for some time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then you could go to the Peace Corps together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Keep it in mind."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, give her a call and talk her into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. All right. Thank you, Jay. This has been a wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.062882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Keep it in mind."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, give her a call and talk her into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. All right. Thank you, Jay. This has been a wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you, Pat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful conversation.\n\nThis is Pat Wand on September 3rd, continuing briefly my conversation with Peace Corps volunteer Jay Sztuk. And I asked him how the Fiji islanders make kava. He is going to tell us now, including the name of the plant from which kava is made."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:365", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1809800000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, give her a call and talk her into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. All right. Thank you, Jay. This has been a wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you, Pat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful conversation.\n\nThis is Pat Wand on September 3rd, continuing briefly my conversation with Peace Corps volunteer Jay Sztuk. And I asked him how the Fiji islanders make kava. He is going to tell us now, including the name of the plant from which kava is made."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Well, the name of the plant is Piper methysticum. It's a type of a pepper plant and just grows three or four feet tall. But the plant takes at least four years to mature, and after that, they'll dig it up and dry the roots. Sometimes the stems, but the most potent part is the roots. So the roots are dried, they're cleaned, you know, all the dirt is scraped off and then it's pounded into a powder. So nowadays this may be done by machine, but traditionally there's a, it's done in a hollowed-out log and a big heavy stick or iron rod. And the powder is put into a cloth, then strained through water, and the juice is squeezed out of the powder. And that's all the preparation it takes. It's not fermented. It's not aged in any way. That's it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you drink that. You drink the water that has been forced through the dried roots."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4580000000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Well, the name of the plant is Piper methysticum. It's a type of a pepper plant and just grows three or four feet tall. But the plant takes at least four years to mature, and after that, they'll dig it up and dry the roots. Sometimes the stems, but the most potent part is the roots. So the roots are dried, they're cleaned, you know, all the dirt is scraped off and then it's pounded into a powder. So nowadays this may be done by machine, but traditionally there's a, it's done in a hollowed-out log and a big heavy stick or iron rod. And the powder is put into a cloth, then strained through water, and the juice is squeezed out of the powder. And that's all the preparation it takes. It's not fermented. It's not aged in any way. That's it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you drink that. You drink the water that has been forced through the dried roots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It'd be like making tea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except that it's not brewed with hot water. It's squeezed, you know, the juice is squeezed out of the powder by dipping your cloth and water and then giving it a good, hard squeeze."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And then everyone eats, drinks the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It'd be like making tea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except that it's not brewed with hot water. It's squeezed, you know, the juice is squeezed out of the powder by dipping your cloth and water and then giving it a good, hard squeeze."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And then everyone eats, drinks the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody drinks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Drinks the kava, served to them in a common coconut shell."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody drinks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Drinks the kava, served to them in a common coconut shell."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, called a bilo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A bilo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so before I end this brief conversation, let me ask you one more question. Early in your interview, you talked about the three men that you that you met on the public bus going home one evening, and those three men invited you to spend some time with them. And that became quite a moving turning point in your Peace Corps experience. Tell us the name again, please, of those three men and what distinguished each of them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, called a bilo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A bilo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so before I end this brief conversation, let me ask you one more question. Early in your interview, you talked about the three men that you that you met on the public bus going home one evening, and those three men invited you to spend some time with them. And that became quite a moving turning point in your Peace Corps experience. Tell us the name again, please, of those three men and what distinguished each of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. All right. So first there was Paula. He's the Fijian guy. And although he's responsible for introducing me to the rest of these guys in the community, he really wasn't around much after that. He was from the same village as the folks that were renting the flat, Navolau. The Japanese guy, his name was Suzuki, and he was actually. The story I got was that he was riding his bicycle around the world and he had stopped in Fiji. Probably met Paula the same way I did, spent a few days with him. And then he took off again. And Clarkie. Clarkie was the part European guy. Again, he, Clarkie was in and out of the group for a while. He didn't actually live there in the community. He was a friend of these people from the village. But interestingly enough, it turns out that he is the first cousin of my wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So he's distantly related."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so before I end this brief conversation, let me ask you one more question. Early in your interview, you talked about the three men that you that you met on the public bus going home one evening, and those three men invited you to spend some time with them. And that became quite a moving turning point in your Peace Corps experience. Tell us the name again, please, of those three men and what distinguished each of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. All right. So first there was Paula. He's the Fijian guy. And although he's responsible for introducing me to the rest of these guys in the community, he really wasn't around much after that. He was from the same village as the folks that were renting the flat, Navolau. The Japanese guy, his name was Suzuki, and he was actually. The story I got was that he was riding his bicycle around the world and he had stopped in Fiji. Probably met Paula the same way I did, spent a few days with him. And then he took off again. And Clarkie. Clarkie was the part European guy. Again, he, Clarkie was in and out of the group for a while. He didn't actually live there in the community. He was a friend of these people from the village. But interestingly enough, it turns out that he is the first cousin of my wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So he's distantly related."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He's distantly related. Well, not that distantly. And he probably doesn't remember that story. But when I was back in June, I was relating that to his sister. So I'm sure she's told him about it. I'm not sure if he remembers or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does he still live in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. All right. So first there was Paula. He's the Fijian guy. And although he's responsible for introducing me to the rest of these guys in the community, he really wasn't around much after that. He was from the same village as the folks that were renting the flat, Navolau. The Japanese guy, his name was Suzuki, and he was actually. The story I got was that he was riding his bicycle around the world and he had stopped in Fiji. Probably met Paula the same way I did, spent a few days with him. And then he took off again. And Clarkie. Clarkie was the part European guy. Again, he, Clarkie was in and out of the group for a while. He didn't actually live there in the community. He was a friend of these people from the village. But interestingly enough, it turns out that he is the first cousin of my wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So he's distantly related."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He's distantly related. Well, not that distantly. And he probably doesn't remember that story. But when I was back in June, I was relating that to his sister. So I'm sure she's told him about it. I'm not sure if he remembers or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does he still live in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he still lives there. I didn't get a chance to see him, but I did see his sister and I told her that Clarkie was one of the guys responsible for me meeting up with his cousin and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you having such a rich experience in Fiji as a Peace Corps volunteer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00058:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He's distantly related. Well, not that distantly. And he probably doesn't remember that story. But when I was back in June, I was relating that to his sister. So I'm sure she's told him about it. I'm not sure if he remembers or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does he still live in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he still lives there. I didn't get a chance to see him, but I did see his sister and I told her that Clarkie was one of the guys responsible for me meeting up with his cousin and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you having such a rich experience in Fiji as a Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That started there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, Jay. Thank you so much for this additional information."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 27.6599711855649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a little of both. For the, for the four years prior to me getting there, there had been two separate Peace Corps couples who had been in Mahallat. Both of those couples had stayed with the same family. And they had, I think they had asked for another Peace Corps couple, but I was a single guy, so they weren't accustomed to that. I got to town. I guess this would have been late August. Just got the bus, got into town, showed up at the school. The school was called Mahmoud Emajd Madrasah or high school. And so I got to the school and it was summertime. So the school wasn't in session. There was a custodian there. And somehow within a few hours, a lot of the teachers and the principal had gathered and I was drinking tea with them and they were trying to figure out, well, what are we going to do with this single guy? We didn't expect a single guy. They weren't saying this to me but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that culturally a complicated thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was complicated because if there's a couple, there's no issue of, is this guy going to be getting to know my daughters, for example."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that would have been inappropriate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They would trust him more."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 30.421468142171115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, there was an experience I thought, that I do tell friends about, because we had a boys high school and all men teachers. There was also a girls high school with women teachers. And I had no interaction with any of them until one day, some, I don't even remember what month it was, but probably three or four months into my tenure. I was walking home and a woman crossed the street in her chador, stopped, and started speaking to me in English. She was an English teacher in the girls high school and she just wanted to know. I think she wanted to start, strike up a relationship in order to, to start improving her English, because the, the male teachers had this opportunity regularly. And probably or possibly she had some connection with the women teachers who had been those couples for the four years prior to my getting there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she may have wanted to try to extend that, but that was the only time I spoke to, uh, well, really to anyone in public. The next day, all of my students came in and said, oh Mr. Auld, when are you getting married? We heard, we heard about you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was big news."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was big news and it was like a huge deal. And I don't know what happened with this female teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So even back in those days, the customs were very restrictive as far as men and women mixing on the streets or whatever. Socializing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 41.38617305619739, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they're like, no, you like it, so it's yours. And you just have to then back yourself out of it. Just by the same token, walking down the street every day, I had probably a dozen people a day saying, please, Mr. Auld, come and have dinner, come in and have dinner with me. And I would sometimes say yes after they had said it. I think that if they repeated this over and over, day after day, they were indicating genuinely they wanted to invite you in. So that happened. It happened with the, uh, the mail carrier, the post office person who delivered mail all the time. And I went to his home. I went to, I probably went to dinner at 20 or 30 different homes. So that's the one time I would meet the women of the household."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, sometimes the kids, and sometimes the kids would be looking from behind a door in the other room or something like that, just out of curiosity. But the women would. I'd be there having dinner with the man and we'd be sitting on the floor. There's always a table that's a low table. And you would sit. In the cold winter months, you had a blanket over the table and you'd pull that over your knees just to stay warm. They usually had a coal burnt, being burned in a brazier type thing underneath the table."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but anyway, the woman would bring out the meal and it was always just tremendous, great, great food. At this point in time, for the last three years or so, I've been vegan, so I don't know that that would have worked as well these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now would you converse with the women or would they just come and serve and then disappear?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 43.68663340271283, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but anyway, the woman would bring out the meal and it was always just tremendous, great, great food. At this point in time, for the last three years or so, I've been vegan, so I don't know that that would have worked as well these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now would you converse with the women or would they just come and serve and then disappear?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would talk to them, I would just basically say hello. And I did talk more with Mrs. Rezvani, who I got to know a lot better over time. And they would, they would share pictures when they would go to Shiraz or other cities in Iran. They would visit places like, uh, the tomb of Hafez or Saadi. I forget which one is in Shiraz, but they would go to, and these are great poets of Iran. Rumi is from Iran and Omar Khayyam and different poets that, um, they would show me pictures, they would take a lot of photos. And I would see that when they were away from their town, they would not have the chador on. The chador is a full-length black kind of a cape that allows the women to cover everything but their face.\n\nAfghanistan, you would see, uh, I forget what they call it in Afghanistan, but essentially you could see the eyes or actually it'd be sort of a mesh that you couldn't really even see the eyes. But in Iran, you could see the face of women and that was kind of it. But when they went to Shiraz, the chador would be, they sometimes would not have it at all. They would just have their regular clothes that are sort of Westernized clothes or they might have it draped down so it's not over their head and that kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, um, describe, um, describe life in the town. You said it was a town of about 10,000 people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 48.54070378079203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would talk to them, I would just basically say hello. And I did talk more with Mrs. Rezvani, who I got to know a lot better over time. And they would, they would share pictures when they would go to Shiraz or other cities in Iran. They would visit places like, uh, the tomb of Hafez or Saadi. I forget which one is in Shiraz, but they would go to, and these are great poets of Iran. Rumi is from Iran and Omar Khayyam and different poets that, um, they would show me pictures, they would take a lot of photos. And I would see that when they were away from their town, they would not have the chador on. The chador is a full-length black kind of a cape that allows the women to cover everything but their face.\n\nAfghanistan, you would see, uh, I forget what they call it in Afghanistan, but essentially you could see the eyes or actually it'd be sort of a mesh that you couldn't really even see the eyes. But in Iran, you could see the face of women and that was kind of it. But when they went to Shiraz, the chador would be, they sometimes would not have it at all. They would just have their regular clothes that are sort of Westernized clothes or they might have it draped down so it's not over their head and that kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, um, describe, um, describe life in the town. You said it was a town of about 10,000 people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was it modern or were their homes modern? Were they primitive? Did you have electricity and running water and things like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 18, "return_to_go": 56.22309108739756, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was it modern or were their homes modern? Were they primitive? Did you have electricity and running water and things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had electricity and water. Because of the spring that fed the town, there was, everybody had water and I think everybody had fairly modern plumbing. The, the, um. So from that standpoint it was modern, yeah. And we did have the electricity. I learned recently that Mahallat has grown to a city of about 80,000 people or so. And of course this, the country of Iran has grown tremendously by millions and millions more people now than there were in the early seventies when I was there.\n\nOf course, they've been living under really difficult circumstances with the sanctions that, that our country has placed on them and that we've reimposed during the Trump administration, when Trump just decided he wanted to back away from the, uh, the joint, the JCPOA, which is known as the Iran Nuclear Deal, and reimposing sanctions has created tremendous hardship. Medical supplies can't get through, it's just extremely disruptive and really murderous to the, to the people of Iran now. But, but in those days, the town. So I said it was 10,000 people. So there were probably in that town, there probably 100 bakeries and 100 mosques in a town that size."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, um. So the bakeries were great. I would stop every day and get fresh bread and I really put on weight in that year. And it was just great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do your own cooking?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.454572062289145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And this was, this was in '74 that I met this person. I only met him the one day. But when, when President Carter was welcoming the Shah and trying to maintain relationships with the Shah in, during his presidency, which went from '77 to '81, it was. I was always amazed at how little our intelligence apparatus seemed to understand the depth of, uh, kind of misery that the Shah was inflicting. I think it was just, well, we've got this puppet government in place and we need to keep working with them. And I don't know how that all worked from a diplomatic and foreign service level, but I was, I was just amazed at some of the blunders that President Carter made in trying to accommodate the Shah and be loyal to the Shah when the Shah didn't really have the, the backing of the people. And that became evident during the revolution. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You talked a little bit about teaching and the class structure at the school. Um. Did you spend all your time at that school? Did you have any kind of, uh, did you work with any groups outside of the school? Do any tutoring or anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was strictly at the school. That was, that was my job. And yeah, that was it. I. A typical day. Let's see. Friday was the holy day and the day off. We had school Saturday, Sunday, you would have full days. And then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we would have half days I think, if I'm remembering this right. And then Thursday and Friday we would have days off, or I might have worked half a day on Thursday. But the, um, but yeah. So all of the teaching was done, was done there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find the students?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were great. I mean, I loved working with the kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So these were ninth graders?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.358809413291006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were ninth graders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Teenagers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, you know, you had these really young 12 year olds and then you'd have these really mature 18 or 19 year olds. And, and you just very different backgrounds in terms of where they had come from and their abilities. Just like in an American classroom, I suppose. I've never taught in the U.S. My career went into librarianship when I got back pretty quickly. So I've had a lifetime career in public libraries mainly, but um. So yeah, so I taught all the way through May. We went really October to May. I think that we were built around an agricultural school year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think that when it was planting season, less students came in. And we didn't really start until after the harvest. So we didn't start until October. I was actually in Mahallat getting accustomed to things for maybe a month before we really got the classes going. So a lot of break time. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was English a required course or an elective?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 35.814553379, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was required."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Required."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. So, so I would teach in the morning from, seems like it would be about 8:00 or 8:30 or 9:00 up until noon. We'd have a two hour break. So I would walk home, get lunch and walk back, and then we'd have from 2:00 until 4:00 or 4:30 each day. That was the normal day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if it was a half day, it might have been just go home at the end of, at lunch time. So there was a lot of free time. I ended up taking a vacation, expecting to come back in the fall. I traveled by bus through Turkey, Greece, and Italy in the summer. And then I mentioned earlier that I had had difficulty at home with both my mom and my brother having nervous breakdowns. Well, I ended up in the same boat. While I was in Italy, I had a pretty severe, um, I'll just call it a psychiatric breakdown, nervous breakdown. I was completely psychotic. I attribute it partly to genetics, knowing that I've had, out of four siblings, three of us have had some of these issues. But, but also the stresses of the year, the sort of the sensory deprivation. I had spent a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In isolation, being the only person."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 26.975389999999997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From other volunteers from our English teaching program. And so I met them in Greece. And then we went, we went up to Rome and then, and then to Florence. And while I was in Florence is when I had this breakdown. So I was evacuated up to a German air, an American Air Force base in Germany, and then back to the U.S. and was sent to a hospital in Savannah, Georgia. And I was there for probably two months. I had shock treatments, a whole series of shock treatments. And that eventually sort of broke my, my psychotic cycle of thoughts and delusions and paranoia and schizophrenia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were with your, you were with friends when this happened and they contacted Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They, they. I'm not sure if they contacted, I don't know how it happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But somehow Peace Corps got you out of there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't, I'm. Somehow. I'm not even quite sure how I got out. I know that at some point one of the Senators in South Carolina helped to get me back to the U.S. I think that I was flown into Charleston and then driven down to this hospital in Savannah. After two months, I got back to sort of my senses and I was on some sort of psychotropic drugs for a month or two, and then I got off of those by November and haven't ever had any issue since then. But it was, uh, it was, it was quite the trauma because I had expected to be to be there, to go back. And so I had a really abrupt ending without having had a chance to say goodbye."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Without going back."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00129:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 11.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "None of the students, none of the. Now, some of the people from Peace Corps Iran Association have done that. Jackie Spurlock is the founder of it. She was, she was there in the years after. She got there '74 to '76. And then, and she, she was married at the time. She wasn't in Mahallat, but she then stayed on and worked for private company right up until the revolution. Actually, a couple, Charlie and Marie Mitchell, moved to Mahallat. They were assigned to Mahallat after I left. I left abruptly and I think they still wanted someone, but they got a couple this time to come in. And I've met Charlie and Marie and they're awesome. I met them at the Annapolis conference. They actually lived in the apartment where I lived and they got to know Mr. Resvani. And so, so I have a pretty strong connection with the two of them. They live in Arizona.\n\nBut, um, I'd like to just for the record state the Web address for the Peace Corps Iran Association. That's Peace Corps Iran dot org. Because I think anybody who's listening to this who wants to dig in a little bit more will find a tremendous wealth of resources on Iran, on all the volunteers, on the conferences that have been held. There have been just, that website is a treasure trove of data and resources, so I highly recommend anybody go to that. So it's www dot Peace Corps Iran dot org."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Trying to think of anything else to, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, your. So your story is a little unique in how your service ended but you did complete about a year of service. Do you think that experience of volunteering and living in another country serving in Peace Corps, has it influenced your life post Peace Corps in any way?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:4", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.974618050726797, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] My goal was, I told John a couple of things right at the beginning. I told him that we were never going to see an increase in visitation, that the number of visitors was restricted by the number of people who pass by the Charters and that we were already at capacity, so that was a delusion that there has been an increase in visitors. What I said we could accomplish with the exhibit was not getting more people in but getting more people to have a greater depth of understanding. We went out on the mall that first year and asked people who had just seen the Charters of Freedom, where they had seen it and what that place was, and we had 25 percent correct answers. After the opening of the exhibit, we interviewed people in the new building in a similar manner. We had 75 percent correct answers, so we're about preserving the records of the Federal Government. Our goal, which was not a very dramatic one when you think about it, but very important, was that people actually visited not just the Charters but the National Archives and that we accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you mentioned, just a few minutes ago, about bringing in, I think it was Gallagher. Can you talk a little bit about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Gallagher and Associates."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Patrick Gallagher was the lead designer. And we worked on a team basis. In other words, we all sat at the table. The Foundation, including their marketing folks, Gallagher and his team, and our team all met together from the beginning to the end in creating the project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So from the, was it from the onset, in terms of the design of the exhibit, was it always intended to be based on the Preamble of the Constitution the way the different aspects were broken down or was that something that was later on decided?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:6", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.305131167474219, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Gallagher and Associates."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Patrick Gallagher was the lead designer. And we worked on a team basis. In other words, we all sat at the table. The Foundation, including their marketing folks, Gallagher and his team, and our team all met together from the beginning to the end in creating the project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So from the, was it from the onset, in terms of the design of the exhibit, was it always intended to be based on the Preamble of the Constitution the way the different aspects were broken down or was that something that was later on decided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. It would be fair to say the division of the exhibit into sections of the Constitution was an inspiration of the Archivist of the United States, John Carlin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what was your day-to-day job in this project from the start? Was it, did it focus on a bunch of different things and it just depended on the day, or was it geared towards the Vaults itself? My understanding is you were overseeing not just the Vaults, but also the creation of the McGowan Theater and the galleries and pretty much that entire renovation project. You were an integral part of that process."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:8", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.783479074971353, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Patrick Gallagher was the lead designer. And we worked on a team basis. In other words, we all sat at the table. The Foundation, including their marketing folks, Gallagher and his team, and our team all met together from the beginning to the end in creating the project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So from the, was it from the onset, in terms of the design of the exhibit, was it always intended to be based on the Preamble of the Constitution the way the different aspects were broken down or was that something that was later on decided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. It would be fair to say the division of the exhibit into sections of the Constitution was an inspiration of the Archivist of the United States, John Carlin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what was your day-to-day job in this project from the start? Was it, did it focus on a bunch of different things and it just depended on the day, or was it geared towards the Vaults itself? My understanding is you were overseeing not just the Vaults, but also the creation of the McGowan Theater and the galleries and pretty much that entire renovation project. You were an integral part of that process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My job was to make it happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, so that--"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:10", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.42608786107928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. It would be fair to say the division of the exhibit into sections of the Constitution was an inspiration of the Archivist of the United States, John Carlin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what was your day-to-day job in this project from the start? Was it, did it focus on a bunch of different things and it just depended on the day, or was it geared towards the Vaults itself? My understanding is you were overseeing not just the Vaults, but also the creation of the McGowan Theater and the galleries and pretty much that entire renovation project. You were an integral part of that process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My job was to make it happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, so that--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] So that means doing whatever it takes. Sometimes I was a fundraiser. I had authority to go with the Foundation board to make the pitch for funds for the project. There were times that I was an exhibit project manager, making sure things came in on time and on budget. There were times when I even had some creative input, though compared to the talents that were on the team, that was a fairly meager contribution, but it was for me to lay out the vision and see that we had the resources necessary to complete that vision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were, for you personally either during the project or from your perspective as the manager at large, what were the biggest obstacles that you guys faced throughout your work on the project?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:22", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.9045178318558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In other words, this was the inspired moment that instead of when the objection was made that there's nothing about education in the strategic plan of the National Archives, I said, great. Well, that's where we should be a part of the process because there are a lot of people who think that the records of the National Archives should be used for educational purposes. Let them fund the educational side of the Archives and you can keep the strategic plan right where it is and you can fulfill the goals of the Archives. Let those who want to, in the same way that you let researchers make use of the records, let people who want to use the records to educate on the process of using them in that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that seemed to be the way that you thought would be the most efficient way to convince them that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was one of the factors that worked in both directions during the years we were working on the Public Vaults. At the time, he was thinking that he didn't want to get the Archives involved in some educational program and the Foundation was thinking that they wanted to be an educational institution, so that combination, the clarity that existed for a brief window of time is what allowed the Public Vaults to move forward at such speed. And it was easy. Every donor we went to, we would say the Archives is there to preserve and to provide access to records, but the intellectual, the ability to use these records to create a better-educated public requires private sector support, and that was very clear. Subsequent Archivists, the situation became much less clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I think that makes sense from the standpoint today. Sorry. I'm just reading over my questions, making sure I'm not missing anything here. So you came on, how long did you work at the Archives? You came on in 2000, correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:24", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.893908702062001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In other words, this was the inspired moment that instead of when the objection was made that there's nothing about education in the strategic plan of the National Archives, I said, great. Well, that's where we should be a part of the process because there are a lot of people who think that the records of the National Archives should be used for educational purposes. Let them fund the educational side of the Archives and you can keep the strategic plan right where it is and you can fulfill the goals of the Archives. Let those who want to, in the same way that you let researchers make use of the records, let people who want to use the records to educate on the process of using them in that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that seemed to be the way that you thought would be the most efficient way to convince them that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was one of the factors that worked in both directions during the years we were working on the Public Vaults. At the time, he was thinking that he didn't want to get the Archives involved in some educational program and the Foundation was thinking that they wanted to be an educational institution, so that combination, the clarity that existed for a brief window of time is what allowed the Public Vaults to move forward at such speed. And it was easy. Every donor we went to, we would say the Archives is there to preserve and to provide access to records, but the intellectual, the ability to use these records to create a better-educated public requires private sector support, and that was very clear. Subsequent Archivists, the situation became much less clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I think that makes sense from the standpoint today. Sorry. I'm just reading over my questions, making sure I'm not missing anything here. So you came on, how long did you work at the Archives? You came on in 2000, correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I came on in December 2000 and I left in April 2012."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So what was your, what was the majority of your work after the Vaults and the majority of that restoration was completed. Was it still overseeing the continuation of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:32", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.769865420000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything that went into the Lawrence F. O'Brien Gallery was something that was done by the Foundation, the Archives, and me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, some of my proudest accomplishments are the Digital Vaults and Docs Teach online educational tools. After we worked on those, we got permission to change the entry and create Records of Rights, and I was there up to the final design of Records of Rights. I was not there when it actually opened. For all but the last six months of my tenure, I ran both education and exhibits of the National Archives Experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the other things that was very important to me was that exhibits and education be considered as one and not separate from another. We had joint team meetings, there was always an educator involved to plan. I've never been able to see why education in a museum was not intrinsic to what the intended process was, and vice versa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, the Public Vaults opened more than a decade ago?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:34", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.633183800000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, some of my proudest accomplishments are the Digital Vaults and Docs Teach online educational tools. After we worked on those, we got permission to change the entry and create Records of Rights, and I was there up to the final design of Records of Rights. I was not there when it actually opened. For all but the last six months of my tenure, I ran both education and exhibits of the National Archives Experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the other things that was very important to me was that exhibits and education be considered as one and not separate from another. We had joint team meetings, there was always an educator involved to plan. I've never been able to see why education in a museum was not intrinsic to what the intended process was, and vice versa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, the Public Vaults opened more than a decade ago?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, 2004."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In my discussion with Ray, he touched a little bit on things he thinks could, hypothetically if the Archives was deciding today to do an overhaul to the Vaults and change it up, he touched on something that he thought would be good to consider. To begin this approach, he said that if they were doing it now, he would go back to square one and the thing he focused on was the emphasis on digital tools for education in the exhibit space, because at the time it was cutting edge, but now, at least in his opinion, it seems somewhat antiquated. Would you agree with that assessment?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:38", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.71998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, 2004."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In my discussion with Ray, he touched a little bit on things he thinks could, hypothetically if the Archives was deciding today to do an overhaul to the Vaults and change it up, he touched on something that he thought would be good to consider. To begin this approach, he said that if they were doing it now, he would go back to square one and the thing he focused on was the emphasis on digital tools for education in the exhibit space, because at the time it was cutting edge, but now, at least in his opinion, it seems somewhat antiquated. Would you agree with that assessment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The original lifespan of an exhibit like that was 10 to 12 years, and now, this is clearly going to be up for at least 14 years, maybe 15, and, if I had stayed, one of my tasks would have been to go back to scratch and to keep the same purpose but think through a completely different exhibit. The exhibit went through one update in about, what was that? 2009? Even that update is now too old and we just keep thinking about doing things incrementally. We won't really produce an innovation that matches today's audience, so I'm in complete agreement with Ray. I think the whole thing needs to be scrapped and we need to go back to the beginning. It's not because I don't like the exhibit. There's lots of things I liked, but everything has its time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And its time has now passed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that also part of it is that people 10 to 15 years ago used the Archives, in terms of the general public, used it pretty differently than people would use it today? And so the--"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:42", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.358, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And its time has now passed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that also part of it is that people 10 to 15 years ago used the Archives, in terms of the general public, used it pretty differently than people would use it today? And so the--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] On the research side of the house, it's changed so dramatically. I have to laugh, because before when everything got digitized, the research side of the operation used to have a line every April for the census or similar records but we had no lines anymore. The exhibit side, the lines were around the building, and there's something about that. It was a message about what makes the records powerful on the exhibit side, and there really is no, it’s not that the Declaration hasn't been digitized. It's digitized wonderfully. You can get to detail that you'll never see in person, but it is not a substitute for being in person, one on one, with the Declaration in the Rotunda. The fact is when people question whether museums have had their day, I always point out the difference between records that are there for information and records that are part of an experience. In records that are part of an experience, there is still room for innovation on the exhibit side of the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seems to be sort of a reversal in that sense that it seems like people, in regard to museums, maybe just in general people 10-20 years ago, were all about putting everything online and having it be accessible to everybody, and now people are so used to that, we want to see the real thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I personally find that pretty fascinating. And yes--"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:44", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] On the research side of the house, it's changed so dramatically. I have to laugh, because before when everything got digitized, the research side of the operation used to have a line every April for the census or similar records but we had no lines anymore. The exhibit side, the lines were around the building, and there's something about that. It was a message about what makes the records powerful on the exhibit side, and there really is no, it’s not that the Declaration hasn't been digitized. It's digitized wonderfully. You can get to detail that you'll never see in person, but it is not a substitute for being in person, one on one, with the Declaration in the Rotunda. The fact is when people question whether museums have had their day, I always point out the difference between records that are there for information and records that are part of an experience. In records that are part of an experience, there is still room for innovation on the exhibit side of the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seems to be sort of a reversal in that sense that it seems like people, in regard to museums, maybe just in general people 10-20 years ago, were all about putting everything online and having it be accessible to everybody, and now people are so used to that, we want to see the real thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I personally find that pretty fascinating. And yes--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I think we have never lost the need for the authentic. If we were to re-write Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, authentic would be somewhere near the top of those things that people want, and it helps explain a lot of human behavior and authentic can be authentic goods. It can be authentic stories, but there is a real desire to be in proximity to that which is real, and the more artificial our society gets, the more that has value."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Was there anything that I didn't cover or I didn't ask or you didn't say that you wanted to be able to say?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:48", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I think we have never lost the need for the authentic. If we were to re-write Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, authentic would be somewhere near the top of those things that people want, and it helps explain a lot of human behavior and authentic can be authentic goods. It can be authentic stories, but there is a real desire to be in proximity to that which is real, and the more artificial our society gets, the more that has value."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Was there anything that I didn't cover or I didn't ask or you didn't say that you wanted to be able to say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Talking about 11 years of my life, there are a few things you have not covered, but it's probably more than enough to get you started. If there are other things that you're interested in, I have all sorts of things down in the basement that I don't know what there is a copy of in the Archives. But if there is a specific period or issue that you want more detail on, you know, I know the history. The other people were basically half the Foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And now works for Gallagher and Associates."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say that again? I'm sorry."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00045:50", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Talking about 11 years of my life, there are a few things you have not covered, but it's probably more than enough to get you started. If there are other things that you're interested in, I have all sorts of things down in the basement that I don't know what there is a copy of in the Archives. But if there is a specific period or issue that you want more detail on, you know, I know the history. The other people were basically half the Foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And now works for Gallagher and Associates."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say that again? I'm sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thora Colot now works for Gallagher and Associates, so if you visit with Thora, you get a two-for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you again for your time. I really do appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00694:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 72.16380969361734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My first mission was STS-4."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Four, what a way to start!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought I was jinxed, because STS-4—the solid rocket boosters performed flawlessly, and they separated flawlessly. Everything worked until it got time for the parachutes to deploy, and there was a fault there. My first mission, which I thought would be a few days, ended up lasting a few months. We deployed ROVs [remotely operated vehicles], remotely piloted submarines, to document the condition of the flight hardware and help NASA determine the cause of the parachute failure for their investigation. That launch happened in June, and we weren’t done until September. That was a long one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about working on the Liberty Star and what that was like on that first mission and how you became familiar with your vessel. As its first officer what were your duties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was second officer on the Liberty, then I moved to the Freedom Star on October 6th of 1982. I was there for 25 years until I moved up here. The first officer is second in command to the captain, so if the captain for any reason has to get off or becomes ill then I would fill in as captain of the ship. In addition to that, my role on the ship was overseeing vessel maintenance—that’s both the interior and exterior of the vessel—supervising the deck crew and the ship’s cook, keeping track of the finances and costs and expenditures, and standing watch on the vessel when it was underway as a watch-standing officer.\\n\\n In addition, I trained to be a deck supervisor and supervised SRB recovery operations on deck. This included recovering parachutes, recovering the frustums, and supporting the divers as far as the dive operations. I’m working for the captain, and I’m working for the retrieval supervisor in that capacity. I’m the guy who’s down on deck directing the flow of the operations. Aside from that, just special projects and things like that along the way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Liberty Star and the Freedom Star were very uniquely crafted vessels for this operation. What were your thoughts of those vessels when you first arrived here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00123:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 41.7841904687639, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Surely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't you tell us about your college studies and how you chose your career direction."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I started in really with chemistry. I have a triple major in undergrad school in chemistry, math, and physics, but I was primarily interested in doing research of some type, and that's one reason why took such broad major field. But I finished that up and went to work for the government in a petroleum experiment station, doing just that, research."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What types of research did you do there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were working at various kinds of uses of petroleum and its derivatives. We did a lot of fluorocarbon work that wound up in the refrigeration units, so we were the first ones to do that, which now, of course, has been abandoned, but it worked for a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely. How did you come to work for NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00123:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 38.75352914001509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I went to Houston, it was what it was for, because they called me primarily about Chamber A, which was the big environmental chamber. Then when my resumé got down there and they found out that my background was physics and chemistry and whatnot, and at Arnold Engineering and Development Center I was in charge of the Radiation and Physics Section, so then they wanted to develop that with the \"looney lab.\" Lunar lab. Got to be careful. So they transferred me immediately to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did you feel about that transfer when you got there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I thought it was a lot more exciting. I was a little bored with the big-chamber stuff because it took so long to do something, and the results, we questioned them, because you're inside a closed environment. You're not in outer space. So there was an awful lot of corrections that had to be made that weren't necessarily, I think, legitimate. But it was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was the task given to you when you moved over to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had been interfacing with the engineers at Arnold Development Center, and I was kind of an interface between some of the scientists and the engineers. The scientists always wanted to do everything pure, pure science, which was totally impractical. The engineers didn't want to monkey with a lot of that sort of thing. So I did a lot of that interface work.\\n\\n When I went down to the Lunar Receiving Lab, my main job was to put together the vacuum system and to set up the facility to handle—I think there were 141 different scientific disciplines that were going to come in. So I was on the committee that was setting up how do we interface with the scientists not just at NASA, but the outside scientists also. And we had a number of contracts with the outside that we had to handle. So it turned into more a paper job than an experimental job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first came into work at the LRL, what was the game plan as far as the development of that? Had it already been established into what it became, or were you still working out those issues?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 33.77084918183719, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wasn't that all kind of confidential? I don't know if anybody ever talks about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not sure how that was classified at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kraft, ask him when you have him. See what the other guys got out of all that, because we spent a lot of time thinking about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also wanted to ask you what you thought about some your contemporaries like Glynn Lunney and these guys moving up into the flight director's chair for Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Glynn, yes, he did a good job. Glynn was probably one of the finest guys they ever turned out here. No doubt about that. Interestingly enough, I didn't see him at the funeral. He must have been out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can very well be. I didn't see him last night."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.41205464648577, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kraft, ask him when you have him. See what the other guys got out of all that, because we spent a lot of time thinking about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also wanted to ask you what you thought about some your contemporaries like Glynn Lunney and these guys moving up into the flight director's chair for Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Glynn, yes, he did a good job. Glynn was probably one of the finest guys they ever turned out here. No doubt about that. Interestingly enough, I didn't see him at the funeral. He must have been out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can very well be. I didn't see him last night."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guys like that. All of them. And Gene and all those guys, they all were good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ever had any thoughts of moving into a flight director position yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 40.4578384960953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Glynn, yes, he did a good job. Glynn was probably one of the finest guys they ever turned out here. No doubt about that. Interestingly enough, I didn't see him at the funeral. He must have been out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can very well be. I didn't see him last night."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guys like that. All of them. And Gene and all those guys, they all were good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ever had any thoughts of moving into a flight director position yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went through it a couple of times. For some reason I don't really know why, but it really wasn't that important to me. I probably could have gone in, but by that time, you know, once you do what I've done, that all kind of doesn't fit. [Laughter] How could you have a better job than me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a good perspective on it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 16, "return_to_go": 40.50870944010589, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guys like that. All of them. And Gene and all those guys, they all were good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ever had any thoughts of moving into a flight director position yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went through it a couple of times. For some reason I don't really know why, but it really wasn't that important to me. I probably could have gone in, but by that time, you know, once you do what I've done, that all kind of doesn't fit. [Laughter] How could you have a better job than me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a good perspective on it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the way I look at it, man, because I was the best. In fact, I used to joke around and tell PAO [Public Affairs Office] and all those guys, and guys like that, I told them that I wanted the Russian retrofire officer and have a match who could hit the target areas better. I'd beat him every day. I used to tell those guys that. I said, \"You guys are nowhere when you come up against me.\" It's like being the best shot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true, with a really big bullet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.455720489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think that was a necessary step to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure did. I probably would have done another one, because we made mistakes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which ones are you thinking of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The simulated approach, that was kind of scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then we moved on to Apollo 11 and finally get the landing accomplished. Do you recall where you were when they landed and then did the first EVA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 11.617467210000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure did. I probably would have done another one, because we made mistakes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which ones are you thinking of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The simulated approach, that was kind of scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then we moved on to Apollo 11 and finally get the landing accomplished. Do you recall where you were when they landed and then did the first EVA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I was on the landing team because of the abort stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As they were going down, they had the couple computer alarms."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6561000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was. He's another guy that somehow slipped through the crack and got into the new way of doing things and got caught at it. You remember all that stuff, coming back from the—he was supposed to be put in quarantine. Conrad never stayed in quarantine, as far as I ever knew. I don't think he ever stayed anywhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess we hadn't heard that story about him avoiding quarantine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's what he was. All those guys did that for a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fortunately you proved that the quarantine wasn't all that necessary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, in fact, a good friend of mine, Dr. Shells [phonetic], is a guy you ought to get in here. He's up building stuff with Smithville, Texas now. He's the young man that took over that after the guy—remember the guy, I forget his name, the guy that did it and had a nervous breakdown. Whatever his name was. Really a smart guy. I'll ask Bill what his name was next time we come here and listen to all that story. That whole quarantine thing about, you know—that's another one, right, that we were going to bring stuff back. Did you ever hear the story about, maybe this is—we ought to get off this thing. What time is it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's almost 10:30."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, in fact, a good friend of mine, Dr. Shells [phonetic], is a guy you ought to get in here. He's up building stuff with Smithville, Texas now. He's the young man that took over that after the guy—remember the guy, I forget his name, the guy that did it and had a nervous breakdown. Whatever his name was. Really a smart guy. I'll ask Bill what his name was next time we come here and listen to all that story. That whole quarantine thing about, you know—that's another one, right, that we were going to bring stuff back. Did you ever hear the story about, maybe this is—we ought to get off this thing. What time is it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's almost 10:30."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't sit still more than that. I'm too old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, we'll make arrangements for another meeting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't sit still more than that. I'm too old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, we'll make arrangements for another meeting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me tell you what I was going to tell you. Did you know there was a girl who jumped into the quarantine with him and he couldn't get her out, because once she got in there it was all over? The whole place went crazy over that. You all never heard that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nobody ever said—tells that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. What mission was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nobody ever said—tells that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. What mission was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was after Apollo 11."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Somebody ought to—you'll never heard that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not at all."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was after Apollo 11."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Somebody ought to—you'll never heard that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ask Kraft. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll add it to the list. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Somebody ought to—you'll never heard that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ask Kraft. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll add it to the list. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "See what he says. Serious. You guys ought to look into that. It's part of this history thing here. Whole bunch of that stuff.\\n\\n Did Gene put in there about me and the submarine? I haven't read the thing yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In his book?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ask Kraft. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll add it to the list. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "See what he says. Serious. You guys ought to look into that. It's part of this history thing here. Whole bunch of that stuff.\\n\\n Did Gene put in there about me and the submarine? I haven't read the thing yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In his book?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Me putting a submarine underneath the [unclear]. Is that in there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned it to us last time, I think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See what he says. Serious. You guys ought to look into that. It's part of this history thing here. Whole bunch of that stuff.\\n\\n Did Gene put in there about me and the submarine? I haven't read the thing yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In his book?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Me putting a submarine underneath the [unclear]. Is that in there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned it to us last time, I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he put that in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know if he mentioned it in his book or not."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Me putting a submarine underneath the [unclear]. Is that in there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned it to us last time, I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he put that in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know if he mentioned it in his book or not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He said he would, but I haven't read it that much. I just read the first part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think he does talk about going to requisition money for that for you, I think, but I don't remember the specifics."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00337:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he put that in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know if he mentioned it in his book or not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He said he would, but I haven't read it that much. I just read the first part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think he does talk about going to requisition money for that for you, I think, but I don't remember the specifics."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that's a good story. We had a lot of those good stories like that. But that's all for today, gentleman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, thanks again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 40.083458340043094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Which later put me in good stead for a lot of things. I’ve written hundreds of documents. Now, I don’t write them totally, but responsible for them, integrating them, arguing about them, getting hit over the head about them. A lot of emotion goes into these things. A lot of screaming and hollering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you become the ultimate say on the documentation? Or did that always pass to someone else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my name would be on them—well, Gene’s would be on them first. Then he would hand that off to me later. Then I would put them all together, sign off on them after they were all coordinated with everybody, and then the three big guys, Walt [Walter C.] Williams, Chris Kraft, and Gene Kranz, would sign off on them. Walt Williams being the old X-15 guy who sat in back of me. He wasn’t that much interested in the details of that, so much as the total mission and how it was proceeding and who was doing what and where the problems were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get the updated materials to the places around the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Teletype."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Goodness, that’s a lot of teletype."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 41.20384260004788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my name would be on them—well, Gene’s would be on them first. Then he would hand that off to me later. Then I would put them all together, sign off on them after they were all coordinated with everybody, and then the three big guys, Walt [Walter C.] Williams, Chris Kraft, and Gene Kranz, would sign off on them. Walt Williams being the old X-15 guy who sat in back of me. He wasn’t that much interested in the details of that, so much as the total mission and how it was proceeding and who was doing what and where the problems were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get the updated materials to the places around the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Teletype."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Goodness, that’s a lot of teletype."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I sat next to Gene many days 16 hours straight taking direction from all of those people, coming through Gene, who was coordinating the effort from an ops [operations] and procedures standpoint, and actually implementing, getting it done so to speak. Many times I was ready to fall over, wishing he would fall over first. I’ve actually seen guys fall over. I’ve seen one guy who sat in the chair next to me through a long simulation of days fall asleep. The chair and him went down the steps. Luckily I think it was only two steps. But that’s how exhausted people got. So it was amazing when you look back on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those were long days, weren’t they?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 43.55982511116431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Teletype."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Goodness, that’s a lot of teletype."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I sat next to Gene many days 16 hours straight taking direction from all of those people, coming through Gene, who was coordinating the effort from an ops [operations] and procedures standpoint, and actually implementing, getting it done so to speak. Many times I was ready to fall over, wishing he would fall over first. I’ve actually seen guys fall over. I’ve seen one guy who sat in the chair next to me through a long simulation of days fall asleep. The chair and him went down the steps. Luckily I think it was only two steps. But that’s how exhausted people got. So it was amazing when you look back on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those were long days, weren’t they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Then sometimes we’d be interrupted by the press, which would really tick some people off. Jules Bergman, do you remember him? He would come in insisting that he be interviewing these people, and wanting to get pictures of the Control Center and the layouts and this and that. He was really obnoxious about it. He would bring in these camera crews who you’d know they were up drinking all night. They would come in in their T-shirts and beards, and we’d be there still with white shirts and skinny ties and crew cuts. We just didn’t get together at all. I’ve seen Gene literally turn totally red just in anger and frustration with these guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The cameras in the early ’60s weren’t portable units either."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 48.39980567907145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I sat next to Gene many days 16 hours straight taking direction from all of those people, coming through Gene, who was coordinating the effort from an ops [operations] and procedures standpoint, and actually implementing, getting it done so to speak. Many times I was ready to fall over, wishing he would fall over first. I’ve actually seen guys fall over. I’ve seen one guy who sat in the chair next to me through a long simulation of days fall asleep. The chair and him went down the steps. Luckily I think it was only two steps. But that’s how exhausted people got. So it was amazing when you look back on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those were long days, weren’t they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Then sometimes we’d be interrupted by the press, which would really tick some people off. Jules Bergman, do you remember him? He would come in insisting that he be interviewing these people, and wanting to get pictures of the Control Center and the layouts and this and that. He was really obnoxious about it. He would bring in these camera crews who you’d know they were up drinking all night. They would come in in their T-shirts and beards, and we’d be there still with white shirts and skinny ties and crew cuts. We just didn’t get together at all. I’ve seen Gene literally turn totally red just in anger and frustration with these guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The cameras in the early ’60s weren’t portable units either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything’s loud, and the lights are loud."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s very invasive, isn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 51.55533964341272, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Then sometimes we’d be interrupted by the press, which would really tick some people off. Jules Bergman, do you remember him? He would come in insisting that he be interviewing these people, and wanting to get pictures of the Control Center and the layouts and this and that. He was really obnoxious about it. He would bring in these camera crews who you’d know they were up drinking all night. They would come in in their T-shirts and beards, and we’d be there still with white shirts and skinny ties and crew cuts. We just didn’t get together at all. I’ve seen Gene literally turn totally red just in anger and frustration with these guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The cameras in the early ’60s weren’t portable units either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything’s loud, and the lights are loud."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s very invasive, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One time we’re trying to work. This is after a simulation. Not too many people left in the Control Center. Gene and I are still writing and doing this and that. Somebody gets up out of the console, and Bergman says, “Cut. Who cast a shadow on such-and-such?” Like it was his stage, and he was the director. That’s when Gene just almost—he could have punched him out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the grueling hours or the long hours and the schedules have a lot of impact on the people and did you have turnover? Or did people that started out with you stay with you and work through?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 42.63276142713729, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He was a hell of a nice guy too. He was the guy who really got the astronaut gym going. He was really a fitness kind of a guy. I liked him. He was pretty nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk a little more about Gemini and what all that you were involved in in the missions, because that was such a stepping-stone for the next part of the program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, this thing [referring to an old document] with all the 50 years of mold on this, here’s a whole bunch. These are all Gemini mission rules. Not all of them, but quite a lot of them. You can see how primitive hand-typed mimeographed, and look at that. That’s a ditto machine. I remember Gene and I and a few others in Langley in a giant vault trying to run off some mission rules, and us all starting to get woozy with the smell, and we had to keep the vault door open. We would collate these things in a daisy chain. We’d all go around a big table, everybody’d pick up a page and collate it. That’s 1961 and ‘62."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Technology."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Then these things would get coordinated, and the three big guys would sign off on them. So they’re almost falling apart now. But this is how primitive it was, and they’re hand-typed, and sometimes somebody would come in with a chart, and we’d throw that in too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned some of the discussions that you had trying to get things integrated. Do you remember any discussion more than others of people wanting to have things done their way that stands out in your memory that made an impact on a mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 58.59741110674787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a big lesson that you just cannot think of all the possible horrible things that can go wrong in your wildest dreams and in the wildest dreams of some of these simulation guys who were very creative. They did a marvelous job of making the whole flight control teams and the crews become a little bit more humble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have an opportunity to input sometimes for what simulations should include?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, those were snuck in on all of us. I think there was some vindictiveness going on there. “We’ll show so-and-so.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any practical jokes as well with simulations, or were they pretty serious?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they’re deadly serious as I recall. There might have been some jokes afterwards or in between, but there are many many times that the crews would be very very vocal about, “We just wasted an hour with that stupid simulation,” which wasn’t all that stupid after all. Apollo 13 is a good example, of course. Well, look at all of them. Who would have thought that Wally Schirra’s shutdown on the pad—the mission rule was if you get a pad shutdown, you abort. Well, nobody wanted to pull the abort button, ejection seat of whatever vehicle you were on in the tower, if it really wasn’t a shutdown. Well, he sensed the shutdown, but he did not sense a liftoff.\\n\\n So that’s seat-of-the-pants stuff. How do you, sitting on a rocket, verify that it hadn’t moved two inches off the ground, which is when the umbilical starts to pull out the bottom or whatever? So he saved the launch vehicle, and he got a lot of razz for that. But there were so many times where unforeseen, unthought-of, unsimulated events would happen that you just became more and more humble as well as more and more cautious as to you don’t know it all. You just can’t conceive of all the things that could happen. There’s millions of parts on these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Gemini missions progressively added more and more objectives with the flights. For instance, on the rendezvous there was so much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 51.456383555324074, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a great time. I got a lot done. Because we worked harder than they did. One day I was calling to get everybody together for a test, and started calling in the back for the M&Os, the maintenance and operations people in the back that support the little control center in the front. I’m calling on a loop saying, “M&O, CapCom.” We’re simulating different positions, doing all kinds of—writing down things. Well, there was nobody there. “M&O CapCom, ready for the test.” Nothing. Take my headset off and go in the back room. They broke for tea. I said, “Well, hey, you guys, we’re up for the tests.” They said, “Well, it’s teatime. Sit down, bloke, have a tea.” The double-A types up front and the Australians in the back. You’ve got to learn to give a little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You learned to work with all types of people, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You got to back off a little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the only remote site that you went to, or did you have other adventures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to the Coastal Sentry Quebec when it was in port, where we did the same kind of thing. We just verified that they were up and ready to support. I don’t know if that ship was—yes, it was a new modification for Gemini. Those were the only two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a different change from that then moving into Apollo. At what point when you were in working with the Gemini program, were you involved at all with the stuff that was coming up for Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.98827518080103, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, I just knew just about everything there was about what was going to go on with that one. Because I worked so hard with Walt Cunningham, who was a tough guy to work for. He was a Marine pilot, a go-getter, a double-type-A. But he knew what needed to be done, and he was really the action guy for that crew as far as down at that level, the working level, goes. And Eisele and I worked [together] with primarily from just the guidance standpoint; what his experience would be as far as testing the checkout of the navigation systems, the inertial guidance system. But when you go down and look at all the test objectives, there were quite a lot. I worked very closely with George [M.] Low at the time, and General [Samuel C.] Phillips, who I later worked with on Space Station much later at Headquarters.\\n\\n So yes, there were some great people. It’s just hard to believe how great those people were. Just how did they all get together? At the right time and the right place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we look back at what all was going on, and as you mentioned the different personalities, different talents, different—they’re all maybe on the same goals, but at the same time approaching them different ways. The fact that you were all able to come together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, there was some screaming and hollering for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure simulations, as you mentioned earlier for Apollo, also must have been—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, oh, worse than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any you’d like to share with us?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 38.87586131200115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, there was some screaming and hollering for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure simulations, as you mentioned earlier for Apollo, also must have been—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, oh, worse than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any you’d like to share with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would, but I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to see if you can think about them later."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 40.97317923555683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, oh, worse than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any you’d like to share with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would, but I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to see if you can think about them later."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I’ll tell you one on me. I’ll tell you one of my mistakes, which never sat well. This had to be in Mercury. Worldwide simulation. I forgot what flight it was. It probably was Mercury 7 or 8. Worldwide simulation. Everybody’s tired. Going around the world. Comes back to the Control Center. Hours go by. Everybody’s talking, arguing, whatever. I’m saying something. It was my turn to talk, and Kraft says, “Well, that was a stupid answer.” I said on Goddard conference worldwide, “Well, that was a stupid question.” Suddenly the entire world was silent. Very quiet. Kranz is standing next to me. Kraft is on my right. Kranz is on my left. Kranz’s ears turn red. I could just see it today. Kraft got his look. Have you ever seen his look?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not in person, no."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.19242137284092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would, but I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to see if you can think about them later."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I’ll tell you one on me. I’ll tell you one of my mistakes, which never sat well. This had to be in Mercury. Worldwide simulation. I forgot what flight it was. It probably was Mercury 7 or 8. Worldwide simulation. Everybody’s tired. Going around the world. Comes back to the Control Center. Hours go by. Everybody’s talking, arguing, whatever. I’m saying something. It was my turn to talk, and Kraft says, “Well, that was a stupid answer.” I said on Goddard conference worldwide, “Well, that was a stupid question.” Suddenly the entire world was silent. Very quiet. Kranz is standing next to me. Kraft is on my right. Kranz is on my left. Kranz’s ears turn red. I could just see it today. Kraft got his look. Have you ever seen his look?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not in person, no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you remember the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still? The robot is standing there and the eyes, the shield of his eyes rises up and then the lasers come out. Well, that’s what I got, right in the middle of the forehead. I got the laser, the Kraft lasers. Well, it goes on. It finally ends. I know I’m in deep kimchi. See, I’m now 27 years old. I’m really smart now. So I’m standing at the end of the Control Center, right at the end of the steps, and I’m waiting for it. I said, “I’m sorry, Chris, I just got excited there.” Still he says, “That’s okay, just don’t ever let it happen again.” Then we go back to the dungeon underneath the VIP room and start work. But I’m sure he never forgot it. I never forgot it. That’s for sure. I’ve seen the lasers many times, is my problem. But I thought he was very gracious to me in his book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe he’s forgiven you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 50.978297991161625, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you remember the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still? The robot is standing there and the eyes, the shield of his eyes rises up and then the lasers come out. Well, that’s what I got, right in the middle of the forehead. I got the laser, the Kraft lasers. Well, it goes on. It finally ends. I know I’m in deep kimchi. See, I’m now 27 years old. I’m really smart now. So I’m standing at the end of the Control Center, right at the end of the steps, and I’m waiting for it. I said, “I’m sorry, Chris, I just got excited there.” Still he says, “That’s okay, just don’t ever let it happen again.” Then we go back to the dungeon underneath the VIP room and start work. But I’m sure he never forgot it. I never forgot it. That’s for sure. I’ve seen the lasers many times, is my problem. But I thought he was very gracious to me in his book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe he’s forgiven you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe. You mentioned Gemini 4, when you were starting to work on that, that was the first time you were involved in a secret meeting. How about Apollo 8? When did you learn that they had made the decision to go around the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in a big meeting in the program—that was a meeting from all over. I was just a shadow on that mission. I just helped Zarcaro a little bit with the test objectives. So I wasn’t prime on that flight. But I sat in on all those meetings. I flew down to see the crew with him and sat and went over test objectives and so forth. But that was Frank Borman, I think, was instrumental, as well as a few higher than him, to make the decision to really go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had been involved in so many of the firsts that had happened in the space program, and now this was a really big first. What were your thoughts when you heard that they were going to take that step?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 47.75366443462403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe. You mentioned Gemini 4, when you were starting to work on that, that was the first time you were involved in a secret meeting. How about Apollo 8? When did you learn that they had made the decision to go around the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in a big meeting in the program—that was a meeting from all over. I was just a shadow on that mission. I just helped Zarcaro a little bit with the test objectives. So I wasn’t prime on that flight. But I sat in on all those meetings. I flew down to see the crew with him and sat and went over test objectives and so forth. But that was Frank Borman, I think, was instrumental, as well as a few higher than him, to make the decision to really go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had been involved in so many of the firsts that had happened in the space program, and now this was a really big first. What were your thoughts when you heard that they were going to take that step?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know when Kennedy said, before we’d ever gone into orbit, he said, “We’re going to go to the Moon,” everybody thought this guy is crazy, we’ve never even launched anything that flew yet? It was that same feeling like I don’t know if we’re ready for this yet, what’s wrong with Apollo 11 or somewhere out there. So it was pretty gutsy. I forgot now the impetus behind it, because the year was what, ’68. No, see, now there’s a year that I totally lost societalwise. I’m in the Control Center day and night or working on something day and night. People would say, “Hey, you hear about the riots?” Or “You hear about Martin Luther King?” Or “You hear about this?” Or “You hear about that?” I said, “No, what’s going on?” So the world is spasming out there. Vietnam and all the other stuff and pickets and lines. Everybody’s working so hard, we just don’t know what’s going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn’t have time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 53.059627149582255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in a big meeting in the program—that was a meeting from all over. I was just a shadow on that mission. I just helped Zarcaro a little bit with the test objectives. So I wasn’t prime on that flight. But I sat in on all those meetings. I flew down to see the crew with him and sat and went over test objectives and so forth. But that was Frank Borman, I think, was instrumental, as well as a few higher than him, to make the decision to really go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had been involved in so many of the firsts that had happened in the space program, and now this was a really big first. What were your thoughts when you heard that they were going to take that step?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know when Kennedy said, before we’d ever gone into orbit, he said, “We’re going to go to the Moon,” everybody thought this guy is crazy, we’ve never even launched anything that flew yet? It was that same feeling like I don’t know if we’re ready for this yet, what’s wrong with Apollo 11 or somewhere out there. So it was pretty gutsy. I forgot now the impetus behind it, because the year was what, ’68. No, see, now there’s a year that I totally lost societalwise. I’m in the Control Center day and night or working on something day and night. People would say, “Hey, you hear about the riots?” Or “You hear about Martin Luther King?” Or “You hear about this?” Or “You hear about that?” I said, “No, what’s going on?” So the world is spasming out there. Vietnam and all the other stuff and pickets and lines. Everybody’s working so hard, we just don’t know what’s going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn’t have time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn’t have time for that. Yes, but so those meetings with the big guys, we would just be sitting. We wouldn’t even be at the big table. We’d be sitting on the wall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were busy during that time period, but yet you found time to serve as Apollo pressure suit test subject."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 28.713271508014433, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I’d already had the pressure suit experience. I had to go down to Tyndall Air Force Base [Panama City, Florida] and get seat ejection training. I was already a pilot, but I wasn’t an Air Force pilot, and I had to get their chamber certification, which is just really rapid decompression stuff. So those are pretty simple tests. But there’s nothing to them. You sit in an ejection seat and they just want to be sure you’re going to pull the handle. So they say, “Eject.” Then you pull the handle. Then it fires you up a sled. But they want to be sure that you got the cojones to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any close calls while you were working those missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was only one, and I didn’t realize the full extent of it. When you’re at that altitude on that particular plane, they have what they call a “Mach Tuck” problem. You can’t get the nose down too far because you don’t recover. So the thing will go over on its back, then the wings come off. So we did get an indication that the elevator trim was either stuck or not operating right. So the pilot said, “Well, we can’t continue because we’re pushing the envelope now as far as this Mach Tuck problem goes.” So we landed I think it was at [Washington] Dulles [International Airport, Chantilly,Virginia]. So there I am at Dulles Airport with my flight suit on, and all these passengers walking by saying, “What’s he doing here?” Forced landing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Guess you stood out in the crowd."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I was in an orange jumpsuit at the time. That does stand out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does. Did you leave that program and then become the chief of the science requirements?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.041075935820288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I was in an orange jumpsuit at the time. That does stand out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does. Did you leave that program and then become the chief of the science requirements?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they were close to—I think there might have been some overlap there, or was the overlap on—let’s see. It was only a year that I did the science requirements for ALSEP. That would be ’70, ’71. So I think I might have flown a mission or two in parallel there. I’ve forgotten now. I’d have to look at the dates. So that job was really pulling together all the procedures and test objectives and documentation for the lunar experiments and some for the Command Module. You had that bay where you had some other experiments in it for what the gravity variation is around the Moon. That was a lot of people involved with that. There was about five contractors providing all that equipment. They would all have input as to what that was. All that would go then to the crews for training. How to deploy the ALSEP experiments, and how to turn them on and turn them off and get data. There were a lot of them. They worked for a long time. Matter of fact, I think some of them still work, like this laser reflector. But I think most of them worked for four or five years, and I think they were designed for a year or six months or something. A lot of science there. All kinds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you wrote yet one more handbook when you were there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was another document or two for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Resources Application User’s Handbook."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.15675103980032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they were close to—I think there might have been some overlap there, or was the overlap on—let’s see. It was only a year that I did the science requirements for ALSEP. That would be ’70, ’71. So I think I might have flown a mission or two in parallel there. I’ve forgotten now. I’d have to look at the dates. So that job was really pulling together all the procedures and test objectives and documentation for the lunar experiments and some for the Command Module. You had that bay where you had some other experiments in it for what the gravity variation is around the Moon. That was a lot of people involved with that. There was about five contractors providing all that equipment. They would all have input as to what that was. All that would go then to the crews for training. How to deploy the ALSEP experiments, and how to turn them on and turn them off and get data. There were a lot of them. They worked for a long time. Matter of fact, I think some of them still work, like this laser reflector. But I think most of them worked for four or five years, and I think they were designed for a year or six months or something. A lot of science there. All kinds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you wrote yet one more handbook when you were there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was another document or two for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Resources Application User’s Handbook."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I forgot about that one, yes, that was for Skylab. That was taking all the aircraft stuff, and anything that applied to Skylab from a sensor standpoint, coordinating that with those who were scientists. That was an international, too, thing at Goddard. They had people from all over the country coming. What they wanted to do, and what payloads they wanted access to, what data they wanted access to. So I worked with scientists and engineers on those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you found yourself in yet a wider array of personalities and skills and talents to pull information from."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 34.6186122664448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was another document or two for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Resources Application User’s Handbook."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I forgot about that one, yes, that was for Skylab. That was taking all the aircraft stuff, and anything that applied to Skylab from a sensor standpoint, coordinating that with those who were scientists. That was an international, too, thing at Goddard. They had people from all over the country coming. What they wanted to do, and what payloads they wanted access to, what data they wanted access to. So I worked with scientists and engineers on those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you found yourself in yet a wider array of personalities and skills and talents to pull information from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Even when I left, I worked with scientists and engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You left in 1971."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 32.90956918493866, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I forgot about that one, yes, that was for Skylab. That was taking all the aircraft stuff, and anything that applied to Skylab from a sensor standpoint, coordinating that with those who were scientists. That was an international, too, thing at Goddard. They had people from all over the country coming. What they wanted to do, and what payloads they wanted access to, what data they wanted access to. So I worked with scientists and engineers on those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you found yourself in yet a wider array of personalities and skills and talents to pull information from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Even when I left, I worked with scientists and engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You left in 1971."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There again I got an offer and couldn’t refuse it. I knew the end was near here. So I went to work for a contractor at Goddard on ERTS [Earth Resources Technology Satellite], which became Landsat. Same thing. It was all that payload stuff for Landsat, which was all imagery and the data processing laboratory that processed it all. So ERTS, Earth Resources Technology Satellite, became Landsat. That contractor was having problems at Goddard, and I don’t think they got any follow-on. So I left there. Another NASA flight controller was there. Dick [Richard L.] Holt, who was a network controller in Mercury and Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you went to work later to help support Space Station Program Office."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 25.455076872154066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Even when I left, I worked with scientists and engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You left in 1971."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There again I got an offer and couldn’t refuse it. I knew the end was near here. So I went to work for a contractor at Goddard on ERTS [Earth Resources Technology Satellite], which became Landsat. Same thing. It was all that payload stuff for Landsat, which was all imagery and the data processing laboratory that processed it all. So ERTS, Earth Resources Technology Satellite, became Landsat. That contractor was having problems at Goddard, and I don’t think they got any follow-on. So I left there. Another NASA flight controller was there. Dick [Richard L.] Holt, who was a network controller in Mercury and Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you went to work later to help support Space Station Program Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My wife and I started a company called TADCORPS in Washington in ’82. We worked with the first Space Station task force they called it. John [D.] Hodge headed that up. I haven’t heard from him in years. I hope he’s okay. He’s getting up there. He’s probably 80 by now. A real gentleman. A few other guys that were flight controllers too, or flight support people, or mission support people, were there. Then that grew very fast. By ’83 or ‘84 it got to be a full office type of thing. We just did the administrative support for them. Although later through our company, we hired some experts, like General Phillips for example, and people who would support their big—big—meetings that would just go on for days it seemed.\\n\\n That was a tough period to get Space Station started. There were a lot of documents coming out of that. Some neat ones too. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford had a lot to do with those, and George [W. S.] Abbey did too. There was some beautiful documents on Mars that came out of that. We even hired—oh, who’s the guy, the great artist that did all that stuff in the Space Center?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bob [Robert T.] McCall?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.68202541099538, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, except that we still had some contracts with the education and training people. Frank Hoban. Do you remember him at all? He’s more of a Headquarters guy. Bob Freitag. All those guys are dead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been interesting for you to hire Sam Phillips to work as part of your operation after you had worked under him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A small side note. He was easy to work with, and I got to know him. But he was still a four-star general. Even in a business suit, he’s a four-star general. Well, he was coming into our office to get signed up for this task, and I greeted him at the elevator and said, “Hi, Sam, how you doing?” He [shrugged my hand off his shoulder.] It’s just, you just don’t put your hand around a four-star general and say, “Hi, how the hell are you?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not ever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not ever, right. But he was very nice. He was another gentleman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember when we first started the conversation, we talked about you being 25 and you were working with these pioneers. You talked about Chris Kraft, and you mentioned George Low. I know, as you said, you weren’t in those high-powered meetings, but you certainly were there. Can you give us some impressions of some of these?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.313361567772645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A small side note. He was easy to work with, and I got to know him. But he was still a four-star general. Even in a business suit, he’s a four-star general. Well, he was coming into our office to get signed up for this task, and I greeted him at the elevator and said, “Hi, Sam, how you doing?” He [shrugged my hand off his shoulder.] It’s just, you just don’t put your hand around a four-star general and say, “Hi, how the hell are you?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not ever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not ever, right. But he was very nice. He was another gentleman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember when we first started the conversation, we talked about you being 25 and you were working with these pioneers. You talked about Chris Kraft, and you mentioned George Low. I know, as you said, you weren’t in those high-powered meetings, but you certainly were there. Can you give us some impressions of some of these?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "George Low, he was an aristocrat. He had that air about him. I think he was Austrian, so he was a very commanding person, a very forthright person. You could talk to him. You could tell him whatever you felt like telling him. In fact he gave me one of my grades [promotions]. So he was okay to work with, but he was another, quote, four-star general, but not a general. But you know what I mean. He was more a control person from the standpoint of a big project. He took over from—what was the guy that had to leave after Apollo 1?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Joe [Joseph F.] Shea."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.903735075302938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not ever, right. But he was very nice. He was another gentleman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember when we first started the conversation, we talked about you being 25 and you were working with these pioneers. You talked about Chris Kraft, and you mentioned George Low. I know, as you said, you weren’t in those high-powered meetings, but you certainly were there. Can you give us some impressions of some of these?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "George Low, he was an aristocrat. He had that air about him. I think he was Austrian, so he was a very commanding person, a very forthright person. You could talk to him. You could tell him whatever you felt like telling him. In fact he gave me one of my grades [promotions]. So he was okay to work with, but he was another, quote, four-star general, but not a general. But you know what I mean. He was more a control person from the standpoint of a big project. He took over from—what was the guy that had to leave after Apollo 1?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Joe [Joseph F.] Shea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Joe Shea. Joe Shea was supposed to be in that [Apollo 1] spacecraft that morning. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No I didn’t."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 17.6708167503366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "George Low, he was an aristocrat. He had that air about him. I think he was Austrian, so he was a very commanding person, a very forthright person. You could talk to him. You could tell him whatever you felt like telling him. In fact he gave me one of my grades [promotions]. So he was okay to work with, but he was another, quote, four-star general, but not a general. But you know what I mean. He was more a control person from the standpoint of a big project. He took over from—what was the guy that had to leave after Apollo 1?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Joe [Joseph F.] Shea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Joe Shea. Joe Shea was supposed to be in that [Apollo 1] spacecraft that morning. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No I didn’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From what I heard. I don’t know if this is true or not. I think it’s true. It was a plugs-out test or something. I forgot what they called it. So I think he always wanted to see what goes on, so I think he was going to sit down in the navigator’s [station] down below there and just watch things happen. Then for some reasons somebody said, “No, it’s just—they’re going to be in full suits, it’s an all-up test, there’s just no room.” So he never did go in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many have talked about how Apollo 1 literally changed the course. Do you agree with that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.98473535379524, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I spent the most time on Apollo 7. In fact, I’ll give you something too. Remind me to give you this thing. Kranz asked me the same thing, what are the most important things? This I’ll just give you [referring to document]. This was my feelings after Apollo 1. Kranz asked me, “What mission in each program was your favorite?” Well, John Glenn because it was my first in the Mercury Control Center for sure, and it was so exciting, and it was over in three orbits. It went from—oh, it’s over. Gemini ’76 first rendezvous. Apollo 7. I busted my buns on Apollo 7. Skylab, I only worked on it for a short time, but I enjoyed it.\\n\\n From the standpoint of five events that you remember most, Glenn, ’76, the Apollo 1 fire, Apollo 8, from the standpoint of the first humans to leave a planet. That’s pretty far out. Of course the lunar landing, which I was not on as a flight controller. I was still flying and suit testing. But at least I did my contribution to the suit world on that one. So in fact, I should give you this too. I’ll go make a copy of this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of Gene Kranz, when I was reading through some things, I noted in his book that it talks about the first time that he put on his white vest, and you were sitting next to him. I got so tickled that he describes you as gently rolling your eyes, I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn’t I say something like—I said something on the loop like—okay, what was that? It was in one of those books. Like “I think we need to get the white jacket guys in here” or something like that. The other white jacket guys in here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think he shared that in his book."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know him like a brother."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He mentioned how you sat next to him many a days."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.8719281708836, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn’t I say something like—I said something on the loop like—okay, what was that? It was in one of those books. Like “I think we need to get the white jacket guys in here” or something like that. The other white jacket guys in here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think he shared that in his book."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know him like a brother."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He mentioned how you sat next to him many a days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love the whole family. The whole family is just wonderful. They lived down the street from us. I used to go to Gene’s house and I said, “Gene, what are you doing?” He said, “Oh, I’m giving the kids a bath.” I go in there. He’s got them all lined up like soldiers, ready to get into the tub. Each one. You know that’s what he would do, right? “All right. Next. Come here. You’re out of here. Next.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with five I guess he had to have some system."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.857697967648443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know him like a brother."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He mentioned how you sat next to him many a days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love the whole family. The whole family is just wonderful. They lived down the street from us. I used to go to Gene’s house and I said, “Gene, what are you doing?” He said, “Oh, I’m giving the kids a bath.” I go in there. He’s got them all lined up like soldiers, ready to get into the tub. Each one. You know that’s what he would do, right? “All right. Next. Come here. You’re out of here. Next.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with five I guess he had to have some system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Six, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Six I think, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.952997741831602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love the whole family. The whole family is just wonderful. They lived down the street from us. I used to go to Gene’s house and I said, “Gene, what are you doing?” He said, “Oh, I’m giving the kids a bath.” I go in there. He’s got them all lined up like soldiers, ready to get into the tub. Each one. You know that’s what he would do, right? “All right. Next. Come here. You’re out of here. Next.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with five I guess he had to have some system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Six, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Six I think, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of them was conceived in my house. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read that in the book, yes. It was a little bit more than I wanted to know."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.169997490924002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Six, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Six I think, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of them was conceived in my house. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read that in the book, yes. It was a little bit more than I wanted to know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "TMI [too much information] there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live down the street from him in Dickinson, [Texas] or when you all were still in Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.522219434360002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of them was conceived in my house. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read that in the book, yes. It was a little bit more than I wanted to know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "TMI [too much information] there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live down the street from him in Dickinson, [Texas] or when you all were still in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, before then, it was in Sun Valley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Sun Valley."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.024688260400001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "TMI [too much information] there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live down the street from him in Dickinson, [Texas] or when you all were still in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, before then, it was in Sun Valley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Sun Valley."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was one of those houses that we all picked out together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up in Florida for a little while. Were you working down there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.582986956000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, before then, it was in Sun Valley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Sun Valley."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was one of those houses that we all picked out together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up in Florida for a little while. Were you working down there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s much after. Well, you’re talking about during Mercury, you mean? Or much after?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, after you left the space program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 16.20331884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was one of those houses that we all picked out together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up in Florida for a little while. Were you working down there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s much after. Well, you’re talking about during Mercury, you mean? Or much after?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, after you left the space program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes, 15 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the other things I thought was interesting that you were talking about was you were in such good shape because you were into judo. Talk about that, because I know there’s several of you that were doing that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 7.916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, we used to party all the time, yes. We were all very close, yes. We would always throw parties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Having a good close neighborhood."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was too close. When I moved to Nassau Bay—this is a true story. You don’t have to put this in there either. I saw six couples swap couples. Marriagewise as well. This guy would marry this guy, this wife would marry this guy, this guy would marry that wife, this guy would marry that one, that one. That was all on three streets. Can you imagine that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s how tense some of these jobs were. People were just—the families would just get broken up. It was terrible. Very hard on families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that when you first started, you were making $6,000 a year."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was too close. When I moved to Nassau Bay—this is a true story. You don’t have to put this in there either. I saw six couples swap couples. Marriagewise as well. This guy would marry this guy, this wife would marry this guy, this guy would marry that wife, this guy would marry that one, that one. That was all on three streets. Can you imagine that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s how tense some of these jobs were. People were just—the families would just get broken up. It was terrible. Very hard on families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that when you first started, you were making $6,000 a year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no, this is a funny story. This goes back to Chris Critzos. I walk in. I’m making $3,600 a year teaching school. Which at the time was—you could—and I had a child. So when I rented a house at Langley first year, $60 a month, a house. So $3,600 was okay, but I’d like to make more. So I go to Langley and I talk to Chris Critzos, he hires me off the street. He says, “Okay, now let’s see. Got a degree in physics. Got one year experience. Okay, you’re going to be a GS-7.” I say, “What’s that?” He says, “That’s $6,345 a year.” I say, “Oh, I don’t need that much.” I kid you not. I told you I was green. Didn’t I tell you I was green?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But he certainly did not—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s how tense some of these jobs were. People were just—the families would just get broken up. It was terrible. Very hard on families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that when you first started, you were making $6,000 a year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no, this is a funny story. This goes back to Chris Critzos. I walk in. I’m making $3,600 a year teaching school. Which at the time was—you could—and I had a child. So when I rented a house at Langley first year, $60 a month, a house. So $3,600 was okay, but I’d like to make more. So I go to Langley and I talk to Chris Critzos, he hires me off the street. He says, “Okay, now let’s see. Got a degree in physics. Got one year experience. Okay, you’re going to be a GS-7.” I say, “What’s that?” He says, “That’s $6,345 a year.” I say, “Oh, I don’t need that much.” I kid you not. I told you I was green. Didn’t I tell you I was green?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But he certainly did not—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he said, “No, you got one year, and you got this, and you got GS-7.” That was it. That was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said, “Okay.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no, this is a funny story. This goes back to Chris Critzos. I walk in. I’m making $3,600 a year teaching school. Which at the time was—you could—and I had a child. So when I rented a house at Langley first year, $60 a month, a house. So $3,600 was okay, but I’d like to make more. So I go to Langley and I talk to Chris Critzos, he hires me off the street. He says, “Okay, now let’s see. Got a degree in physics. Got one year experience. Okay, you’re going to be a GS-7.” I say, “What’s that?” He says, “That’s $6,345 a year.” I say, “Oh, I don’t need that much.” I kid you not. I told you I was green. Didn’t I tell you I was green?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But he certainly did not—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he said, “No, you got one year, and you got this, and you got GS-7.” That was it. That was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said, “Okay.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I couldn’t believe that somebody would pay me that kind of money. I just could not believe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That should have been a clue how much you were going to make an hour."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he said, “No, you got one year, and you got this, and you got GS-7.” That was it. That was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said, “Okay.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I couldn’t believe that somebody would pay me that kind of money. I just could not believe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That should have been a clue how much you were going to make an hour."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I had no idea. I couldn’t conceive of that. Well, now that’s ’61. Now it’s 1962. I’m buying this house in Sun Valley. $250 down. I borrowed the $250 from my wife’s aunt. That was a lot of money. The bank says, “Well, you need to make $7,500.” I said, “Well, I’m up for GS-9 here soon.” So I go back to Gene. I said, “Gene, when am I going to get my 9?” He says, “Well, when you deserve it,” or something like that. I say, “Well, I need a letter that says I’m going to be a GS-9 someday.” So he writes me a letter. So I give that letter to the bank and I get a new house. I’m making I think it was like $8,000. I can get a new house and a car, all this stuff for the house. Life was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Amazing. It was amazing times for all. Is there anything else that you’d like to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00576:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I had no idea. I couldn’t conceive of that. Well, now that’s ’61. Now it’s 1962. I’m buying this house in Sun Valley. $250 down. I borrowed the $250 from my wife’s aunt. That was a lot of money. The bank says, “Well, you need to make $7,500.” I said, “Well, I’m up for GS-9 here soon.” So I go back to Gene. I said, “Gene, when am I going to get my 9?” He says, “Well, when you deserve it,” or something like that. I say, “Well, I need a letter that says I’m going to be a GS-9 someday.” So he writes me a letter. So I give that letter to the bank and I get a new house. I’m making I think it was like $8,000. I can get a new house and a car, all this stuff for the house. Life was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Amazing. It was amazing times for all. Is there anything else that you’d like to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Read that stuff I gave you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I will."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there’s some good stuff in that article. I think that really encapsulates the spirit of flight control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, we’ll do that. So we thank you for giving us your afternoon."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 34.65426280569163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today is November 6th, 2018. This is Jay Sztuk and I'm interviewing Betty Smallwood, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Fiji from October 1969 through December of 1971. Betty worked as an elementary school teacher. Betty, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're welcome. And when they, when you do the record, I'd like you to put my maiden name in too. So it's Betty Ansin Smallwood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Betty Ansin Smallwood. OK. Thanks, Betty. So let's start by having you tell us about how you originally heard about Peace Corps and why you decided to become a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's a nice story. 1959, John F. Kennedy, who lived in my town, was running for president. I went to hear him in Boston with my mom, and he was talking about this thing called, he was figuring it out. But he calling it the Corps de Paix, or the Peace Corps. And he had this idea. He said, when I become president, I'm going to start this for young people to go overseas and serve and to help other people. And I remember standing there with my mother and saying, I'm going to do that. I was 12 years old. She said, but Betty, how can you know this? You're 12 years old. I said, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it with a husband. She said I didn't have a boyfriend. I had never gone out on a date with anyone. But I was pretty clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a plan."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.54847259961929, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's a nice story. 1959, John F. Kennedy, who lived in my town, was running for president. I went to hear him in Boston with my mom, and he was talking about this thing called, he was figuring it out. But he calling it the Corps de Paix, or the Peace Corps. And he had this idea. He said, when I become president, I'm going to start this for young people to go overseas and serve and to help other people. And I remember standing there with my mother and saying, I'm going to do that. I was 12 years old. She said, but Betty, how can you know this? You're 12 years old. I said, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it with a husband. She said I didn't have a boyfriend. I had never gone out on a date with anyone. But I was pretty clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a plan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a plan. I had a plan. So that's how I first heard about it. And then I was thrilled when he got elected and he started the Peace Corps. And unfortunately, he died before he could see much of it. But he did start it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, it was part of my plan from the time I was an adolescent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So and then 1969 rolled around."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 46.164969555132544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a plan. I had a plan. So that's how I first heard about it. And then I was thrilled when he got elected and he started the Peace Corps. And unfortunately, he died before he could see much of it. But he did start it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, it was part of my plan from the time I was an adolescent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So and then 1969 rolled around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you? Tell me about your application process and the acceptance. And did you plan to go to Fiji? Was that part of this whole, this grand plan, or did that just happen?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 25.156179782247442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They didn't know what it was. So then they brought in someone else who was saying to all three of us, you know, you stupid people, this is in the South Pacific. So this was getting better and better. So then they said, are you two married? The one from the South Pacific. And we said, no. And they said, well, we can send you to the same island, to the same country, to Fiji, if you're not married. But if you want to be on the same island, you have to be married. So I said, OK. It came from my New England experience of an island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a Peace Corps shotgun wedding."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a Peace Corps shotgun wedding. And I said, how many islands can there be? Thinking two, you know, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. That's all I knew. And so they said, oh, there are 330. So we looked at each other and we said, oh, well I guess we'll get married. I mean, we'd been living together for two and a half years, or three years, I can't remember. And we got married in July and we joined the Peace Corps in October."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was, it was. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1970, you were one of the first groups. Not the first group, but one of the early groups to go to Fiji."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.173533091386044, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a Peace Corps shotgun wedding. And I said, how many islands can there be? Thinking two, you know, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. That's all I knew. And so they said, oh, there are 330. So we looked at each other and we said, oh, well I guess we'll get married. I mean, we'd been living together for two and a half years, or three years, I can't remember. And we got married in July and we joined the Peace Corps in October."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was, it was. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1970, you were one of the first groups. Not the first group, but one of the early groups to go to Fiji."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were the second. Fiji IV. There was a Fiji II that was an education group. And Fiji III was a small group, I think they were fisheries or forestry, mostly guys. And then there was a Fiji I who was education. So we were the third education group. The thing that was notable about our group, aside from the fact that the lottery happened in December of that year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lottery for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.192814545984493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was, it was. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1970, you were one of the first groups. Not the first group, but one of the early groups to go to Fiji."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were the second. Fiji IV. There was a Fiji II that was an education group. And Fiji III was a small group, I think they were fisheries or forestry, mostly guys. And then there was a Fiji I who was education. So we were the third education group. The thing that was notable about our group, aside from the fact that the lottery happened in December of that year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lottery for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The draft. That was really, I mean, because I was a pacifist at that point. But the whole draft was traumatic. But. And so I will mention that shortly. But one of the things that was notable is that there were six couples and Fiji II had just lost three couples, married couples, which meant that they lost twice as many when you lose a married couple. So they were determined with Fiji IV, I don't know about Fiji I, we only heard about Fiji II losing half of their married couples. Because they wanted to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean they left early?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 23.254889637838808, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They left early and the marriages broke up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And both of them happened at the same time. So they were determined. They had hired psychologists this time and they were interviewing us, really, I mean, asking all kinds of personal questions, like about our sex life. And I said, that's none of your business. But they were really intent on making sure that we were going to stick it out, because they were also very clear that they planned to send the married couples to the outer islands. We were really filling teacher slots. People were leaving the rural areas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we were going in to fill the teacher shortage, which was fine with us. And they also had had bad experiences with sending single volunteers to the outer islands. Because at that point the transportation, you know, if you were in Lau. Or actually Lau was more accessible than Kadavu and Lomaiviti at the time. So, yeah. That was distinctive. All the marriage training, marriage counseling. I liked that it was in Hawaii. I mean, of course, I've never been to Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your training was in Hawaii?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.551405845719326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then they offered me the job. So I went back to the Peace Corps and said, I just got a job offer. This is really cool. I've never been in Hawaii before and I'm thinking of taking it. And they said, now Betty, you signed a contract to go to Fiji. I said, well they've offered John a job too. We can both stay here. And they said, no, you can't do that. You're under contract. You're one of our six married couples and we have a space for you in Fiji. Take our word for it, Fiji is more beautiful than Hawaii. So we said, OK, we'll try Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever regret that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But I've never been back to Hilo Elementary. I've never actually been back to Hilo. The other thing that happened to us in Hilo is that I experienced prejudice as a white person and I was a little thick because I didn't get it at first. They kept calling us haole, and it wasn't, I got that it wasn't a nice term. And then I sort of talked to the people and I said, so why don't you like me, just because I'm a white person? And they said, yes. And I said, my name is Betty. Hi, how are you? And so ultimately we got friends, but this is at the local coffee shop in town. But it sort of stuck in my mind that just because I was white, they didn't like me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, like, so I learned a lot in Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after your training in Hawaii, then you got on an airplane and you flew to Fiji."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.946006495243697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But I've never been back to Hilo Elementary. I've never actually been back to Hilo. The other thing that happened to us in Hilo is that I experienced prejudice as a white person and I was a little thick because I didn't get it at first. They kept calling us haole, and it wasn't, I got that it wasn't a nice term. And then I sort of talked to the people and I said, so why don't you like me, just because I'm a white person? And they said, yes. And I said, my name is Betty. Hi, how are you? And so ultimately we got friends, but this is at the local coffee shop in town. But it sort of stuck in my mind that just because I was white, they didn't like me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, like, so I learned a lot in Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after your training in Hawaii, then you got on an airplane and you flew to Fiji."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your first impression when you hit the ground there in Fiji? Do you have any memory of that arrival experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 26.606673883604106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, like, so I learned a lot in Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after your training in Hawaii, then you got on an airplane and you flew to Fiji."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your first impression when you hit the ground there in Fiji? Do you have any memory of that arrival experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. A little bit overwhelmed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or was it no big deal?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 28.45185987067123, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your first impression when you hit the ground there in Fiji? Do you have any memory of that arrival experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. A little bit overwhelmed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or was it no big deal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We were excited. We had learned a little Fijian by then. What I do remember is that, and then they had us all over at Nasinu Training College. That's where we were. We didn't go do any home visits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was in Suva?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.057622078523586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. A little bit overwhelmed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or was it no big deal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We were excited. We had learned a little Fijian by then. What I do remember is that, and then they had us all over at Nasinu Training College. That's where we were. We didn't go do any home visits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was in Suva?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in Suva, outside of Suva. And we were there all of three or four days, three days. And then the director came. Oh, we have an assignment for John and Betty. We're going to send you out to Gau. I think they told us we were going to go to Gau. Navukailagi District School. And there's a boat leaving in two days and we don't know when the next boat is. So everyone says you should go on this boat. I said, go on the boat? I mean, it was like. So I think it was the shock of, maybe it was three days, I can't remember. But we had to get some canned goods and get some pots and pans and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To set up a household there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 26.73069119835954, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We were excited. We had learned a little Fijian by then. What I do remember is that, and then they had us all over at Nasinu Training College. That's where we were. We didn't go do any home visits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was in Suva?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in Suva, outside of Suva. And we were there all of three or four days, three days. And then the director came. Oh, we have an assignment for John and Betty. We're going to send you out to Gau. I think they told us we were going to go to Gau. Navukailagi District School. And there's a boat leaving in two days and we don't know when the next boat is. So everyone says you should go on this boat. I said, go on the boat? I mean, it was like. So I think it was the shock of, maybe it was three days, I can't remember. But we had to get some canned goods and get some pots and pans and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To set up a household there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To set up a household. I mean, there are no stores there. So they told us there are no stores. And so it was just sort of like a blur. And that was like three days after arrival in country. And it's true, a next boat didn't come for about two months. The boats only came there about once every 2 to 3 months at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went immediately after arriving in the country and there was two months until the next boat. So you didn't wait two months?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.145212442621713, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in Suva, outside of Suva. And we were there all of three or four days, three days. And then the director came. Oh, we have an assignment for John and Betty. We're going to send you out to Gau. I think they told us we were going to go to Gau. Navukailagi District School. And there's a boat leaving in two days and we don't know when the next boat is. So everyone says you should go on this boat. I said, go on the boat? I mean, it was like. So I think it was the shock of, maybe it was three days, I can't remember. But we had to get some canned goods and get some pots and pans and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To set up a household there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To set up a household. I mean, there are no stores there. So they told us there are no stores. And so it was just sort of like a blur. And that was like three days after arrival in country. And it's true, a next boat didn't come for about two months. The boats only came there about once every 2 to 3 months at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went immediately after arriving in the country and there was two months until the next boat. So you didn't wait two months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We would have missed the beginning of school. So we arrived with some things and, um. Yeah. So that was my impression. So my real impression was arriving on this island, and I can't even remember where we stayed at first. Or they had a house they had. Oh, there was a Peace Corps there before us. Her name was Joanna. She was in Fiji II, and she fell in love with Jimmy, who was in Fiji II on the other side of Gau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another Peace Corps volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 26.47557091681693, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We would have missed the beginning of school. So we arrived with some things and, um. Yeah. So that was my impression. So my real impression was arriving on this island, and I can't even remember where we stayed at first. Or they had a house they had. Oh, there was a Peace Corps there before us. Her name was Joanna. She was in Fiji II, and she fell in love with Jimmy, who was in Fiji II on the other side of Gau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another Peace Corps volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another Peace Corps volunteer. So she moved up to be with him even though they weren't married, which didn't seem to bother anyone then. And so we got Joanna's house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they were away because it was school vacation. I don't know what happened. They came back. I can't remember that. I did see her. So we were just sort of there on this place. And I, that's when the Fijian really kicked in. And I remember. So we had this house, we had Joanna's bed, we had a table, we had a chair. And it was very comfortable. And I do remember the Fijians, they would tease us. And they would say, you know, we didn't kill anyone for the house. I said, huh? And they said, well, like in the old days, we would kill people and we would put four skulls under the posts to make the house strong. I said, oh. OK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's funny that they would make a joke out of that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.083967685352146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another Peace Corps volunteer. So she moved up to be with him even though they weren't married, which didn't seem to bother anyone then. And so we got Joanna's house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they were away because it was school vacation. I don't know what happened. They came back. I can't remember that. I did see her. So we were just sort of there on this place. And I, that's when the Fijian really kicked in. And I remember. So we had this house, we had Joanna's bed, we had a table, we had a chair. And it was very comfortable. And I do remember the Fijians, they would tease us. And they would say, you know, we didn't kill anyone for the house. I said, huh? And they said, well, like in the old days, we would kill people and we would put four skulls under the posts to make the house strong. I said, oh. OK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's funny that they would make a joke out of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And then we quickly learned. We got a cat right away. We call him Goosey Goosey, which means dish towel in Fiji. I don't, Fijian, dish rag. But there were mice pretty soon. So. But I remember writing home to my mother, who was a rather proper Bostonian lady, and I said, Mom, you'd be so, you should. I'm so happy. I have three houses. Imagine, I'm 22 years old and I have three houses. I have an eating house, sleeping house. I have an eating house and I have an outhouse. I think my mother was sort of proud that we had joined the Peace Corps. But, uh, and she came to visit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, she did?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.350577389323636, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And then we quickly learned. We got a cat right away. We call him Goosey Goosey, which means dish towel in Fiji. I don't, Fijian, dish rag. But there were mice pretty soon. So. But I remember writing home to my mother, who was a rather proper Bostonian lady, and I said, Mom, you'd be so, you should. I'm so happy. I have three houses. Imagine, I'm 22 years old and I have three houses. I have an eating house, sleeping house. I have an eating house and I have an outhouse. I think my mother was sort of proud that we had joined the Peace Corps. But, uh, and she came to visit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, she did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The following winter. My mother had cancer when I was in college. In fact, I left. I was at Washington University, and I came back. And so she was sort of in remission at that point. And she had another ten years and she died after that. But she came all the way. We couldn't get her to Gau because, you know, these boats didn't come very often, but we went to Ovalau. And some of the people from Gau from those villages were related to the people on the other on the side of Ovalau that looked at Gau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they went through all the ceremonies. And my mom sat on the ground, and they were good sports. And then we went to New Zealand for that winter break. But the couple of times. One of the questions is, what did you do during your breaks? Well, one, I served as a bride and matron of honor at the only time in my life that anyone has asked me to be in a, stand up for them, for marriage. And Pat Siplow and Bill Thomas, they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other Peace Corps volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 22.61175265480404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The following winter. My mother had cancer when I was in college. In fact, I left. I was at Washington University, and I came back. And so she was sort of in remission at that point. And she had another ten years and she died after that. But she came all the way. We couldn't get her to Gau because, you know, these boats didn't come very often, but we went to Ovalau. And some of the people from Gau from those villages were related to the people on the other on the side of Ovalau that looked at Gau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they went through all the ceremonies. And my mom sat on the ground, and they were good sports. And then we went to New Zealand for that winter break. But the couple of times. One of the questions is, what did you do during your breaks? Well, one, I served as a bride and matron of honor at the only time in my life that anyone has asked me to be in a, stand up for them, for marriage. And Pat Siplow and Bill Thomas, they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other Peace Corps volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So they were, it's a long story. They'll have to tell you their story. But he's a great storyteller. And you should interview him, wonderful guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll make a note of that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.457502949782267, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they went through all the ceremonies. And my mom sat on the ground, and they were good sports. And then we went to New Zealand for that winter break. But the couple of times. One of the questions is, what did you do during your breaks? Well, one, I served as a bride and matron of honor at the only time in my life that anyone has asked me to be in a, stand up for them, for marriage. And Pat Siplow and Bill Thomas, they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other Peace Corps volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So they were, it's a long story. They'll have to tell you their story. But he's a great storyteller. And you should interview him, wonderful guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll make a note of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They're up in Rochester, New York. So we had visited them in Taveuni. And she took my measurements, and she made me a dress. And I kept the dress for years. Got married in the, uh, they got married in the Catholic Church. And the other times, the other big times we came in, sometimes we didn't come in because I didn't do very well on the oceans. And they were like 24 hour boat trips on the small copra boats, and I would get seasick. And sometimes the boat didn't come around school break."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't mind staying out there on the atoll? You didn't get island fever or? You get antsy, you get anxious."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.28611438864696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So they were, it's a long story. They'll have to tell you their story. But he's a great storyteller. And you should interview him, wonderful guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll make a note of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They're up in Rochester, New York. So we had visited them in Taveuni. And she took my measurements, and she made me a dress. And I kept the dress for years. Got married in the, uh, they got married in the Catholic Church. And the other times, the other big times we came in, sometimes we didn't come in because I didn't do very well on the oceans. And they were like 24 hour boat trips on the small copra boats, and I would get seasick. And sometimes the boat didn't come around school break."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't mind staying out there on the atoll? You didn't get island fever or? You get antsy, you get anxious."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sort of. Yeah. And then there was one time, I think it was one time we were there for six months. And then after that, it was the principal who was from Tailevu who didn't want to be out there during the spring break. And he just closed the school. He said, enough. And we're leaving now. We'll come back, school will open when the next boat comes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, a long break."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.067611246868344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The other thing I think I'd like to put in this interview or to communicate is that I really liked having my Peace Corps assignment being that of a teacher. I found, I've seen that current volunteers are like youth leaders and they say, oh, that's real. I read somewhere that that's real Peace Corps work. I found it, I liked being a teacher there. Not only did I learn that I like teaching, but it was a role they knew. I knew what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to go to each school every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they knew what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to go teach school every day. And then they took care of us because it was subsistence economy and we couldn't be expected to fish and farm. But so it all worked. And then we did community work around that. But our real job and, you know, they talked about the three goals of Peace Corps. I think I did my job for them. Provide technical assistance when requested, where requested. I taught school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was, you could check me off. And enough of the kids passed the exam in sixth grade. And John taught seventh grade. They didn't trust us with the exam years, which was six and eight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that was the time when there was a teacher shortage in Fiji also."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.519568052075938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they knew what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to go teach school every day. And then they took care of us because it was subsistence economy and we couldn't be expected to fish and farm. But so it all worked. And then we did community work around that. But our real job and, you know, they talked about the three goals of Peace Corps. I think I did my job for them. Provide technical assistance when requested, where requested. I taught school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was, you could check me off. And enough of the kids passed the exam in sixth grade. And John taught seventh grade. They didn't trust us with the exam years, which was six and eight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that was the time when there was a teacher shortage in Fiji also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it really filled a need."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.132853391195486, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was, you could check me off. And enough of the kids passed the exam in sixth grade. And John taught seventh grade. They didn't trust us with the exam years, which was six and eight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that was the time when there was a teacher shortage in Fiji also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it really filled a need."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it filled the need. Yeah. So what else can I tell you about?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's back up, because I think we kind of skipped over when back when you volunteered to go into the Peace Corps. We didn't talk about your family and friends' reaction. Did you get a lot of support or were people kind of surprised that you did this? Do you remember any of the reactions you got from friends and family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.361547396537638, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it filled the need. Yeah. So what else can I tell you about?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's back up, because I think we kind of skipped over when back when you volunteered to go into the Peace Corps. We didn't talk about your family and friends' reaction. Did you get a lot of support or were people kind of surprised that you did this? Do you remember any of the reactions you got from friends and family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was general support."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my mother was. They knew we weren't fitting in there. It was really turbulent times and I. We were the only people we knew that joined the Peace Corps. It's not like we had a whole bunch of friends and they all, we all went different places. I remember the local newspaper wrote up, the Brookline Gazette or Chronicle or something. They put a picture of me in my wedding dress, it was like a jersey thing. And they said, local girl joins the Peace Corps. So but I was from Brookline and Kennedy was from Brookline. And, you know, so this was just ten years after that. Um, I don't know. We were so happy to be joining the Peace Corps. And John. I joined it for the sense of service. John joined, well, it was a deferment at the time, but he wanted to see the world. And so he was really excited and we were really excited and, um, I don't remember any hostility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years is a long time to be away from home."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.174749872268688, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my mother was. They knew we weren't fitting in there. It was really turbulent times and I. We were the only people we knew that joined the Peace Corps. It's not like we had a whole bunch of friends and they all, we all went different places. I remember the local newspaper wrote up, the Brookline Gazette or Chronicle or something. They put a picture of me in my wedding dress, it was like a jersey thing. And they said, local girl joins the Peace Corps. So but I was from Brookline and Kennedy was from Brookline. And, you know, so this was just ten years after that. Um, I don't know. We were so happy to be joining the Peace Corps. And John. I joined it for the sense of service. John joined, well, it was a deferment at the time, but he wanted to see the world. And so he was really excited and we were really excited and, um, I don't remember any hostility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years is a long time to be away from home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, the. We were ready to leave this country at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really. I can't say we were the hippies of the sixties because we went to college. We stayed in college, but we pretty left leaning. We really. I think for the people who, I think you're about a few years younger and you didn't experience this, but we really were disillusioned when Walter Cronkite would come on the evening news every night and our president was lying to us. It was a sense of deflation of our version of the American dream. So the hard part was not leaving. The hard part was coming back and adjusting, which we didn't do very well when we came back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, adjusting can be difficult and we should talk about that. But before we do, just kind of walk me through your typical day on Gau, working there, teaching, living in your little house. So what was your typical day like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.52749985807632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, the. We were ready to leave this country at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really. I can't say we were the hippies of the sixties because we went to college. We stayed in college, but we pretty left leaning. We really. I think for the people who, I think you're about a few years younger and you didn't experience this, but we really were disillusioned when Walter Cronkite would come on the evening news every night and our president was lying to us. It was a sense of deflation of our version of the American dream. So the hard part was not leaving. The hard part was coming back and adjusting, which we didn't do very well when we came back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, adjusting can be difficult and we should talk about that. But before we do, just kind of walk me through your typical day on Gau, working there, teaching, living in your little house. So what was your typical day like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'd get up. Go to our little [inaudible], an eating house. And we had a little, just a little stove, like a two burner propane stove."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Gas stove?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.030555397862578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really. I can't say we were the hippies of the sixties because we went to college. We stayed in college, but we pretty left leaning. We really. I think for the people who, I think you're about a few years younger and you didn't experience this, but we really were disillusioned when Walter Cronkite would come on the evening news every night and our president was lying to us. It was a sense of deflation of our version of the American dream. So the hard part was not leaving. The hard part was coming back and adjusting, which we didn't do very well when we came back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, adjusting can be difficult and we should talk about that. But before we do, just kind of walk me through your typical day on Gau, working there, teaching, living in your little house. So what was your typical day like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'd get up. Go to our little [inaudible], an eating house. And we had a little, just a little stove, like a two burner propane stove."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Gas stove?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, gas stove. We'd make tea or coffee, instant coffee, and would have some, I don't know, something. And then we would go and we'd teach and we would have lunch at one of the teacher's house and his wife would prepare lunch and then we'd go back and finish. And I remember school secretary, school meetings and I was a secretary, so I would write the notes first in English and then in Fijian. And then we would play with the kids after school, and they would bring us food because we didn't have any way of getting food and there was no place to buy food. And hang around. And sometimes John would go out. They included us in the mataqali, an extended family, because that's how they functioned. They didn't know what to do with these separate people, so they included us in. And so sometimes the children would come and stay with us and clean the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They treated you like family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.478394886513975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'd get up. Go to our little [inaudible], an eating house. And we had a little, just a little stove, like a two burner propane stove."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Gas stove?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, gas stove. We'd make tea or coffee, instant coffee, and would have some, I don't know, something. And then we would go and we'd teach and we would have lunch at one of the teacher's house and his wife would prepare lunch and then we'd go back and finish. And I remember school secretary, school meetings and I was a secretary, so I would write the notes first in English and then in Fijian. And then we would play with the kids after school, and they would bring us food because we didn't have any way of getting food and there was no place to buy food. And hang around. And sometimes John would go out. They included us in the mataqali, an extended family, because that's how they functioned. They didn't know what to do with these separate people, so they included us in. And so sometimes the children would come and stay with us and clean the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They treated you like family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. From the beginning. They thought we would be very lonely living alone. We were just married, so we thought it was great. We had a little hut to ourselves. But they didn't think that. So they would send children to be with us. I liked teaching, but I didn't really need them night and day, so we tried to get rid of them. And then we'd go into the village. I had a little problem with going into the village, so that took a while to sort out. They had a coconut log across the river on each side. Actually, Qarani was closer. There was no logs. But I kept going to Qarani and not Navukailagi, which was. And they said, how come you're not coming to the village? I said, I can't cross that. I can't walk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you didn't live in the village, you lived on the school compound?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.763450477177745, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. From the beginning. They thought we would be very lonely living alone. We were just married, so we thought it was great. We had a little hut to ourselves. But they didn't think that. So they would send children to be with us. I liked teaching, but I didn't really need them night and day, so we tried to get rid of them. And then we'd go into the village. I had a little problem with going into the village, so that took a while to sort out. They had a coconut log across the river on each side. Actually, Qarani was closer. There was no logs. But I kept going to Qarani and not Navukailagi, which was. And they said, how come you're not coming to the village? I said, I can't cross that. I can't walk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you didn't live in the village, you lived on the school compound?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they. And they would run across the coconut bridge, all of them. And so finally they put, very shortly after, they put some poles in. And then I still wasn't coming. And I said, there's no handle. So then they put the handle on and they called it the Betty Bridge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it still there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.226482070589807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they. And they would run across the coconut bridge, all of them. And so finally they put, very shortly after, they put some poles in. And then I still wasn't coming. And I said, there's no handle. So then they put the handle on and they called it the Betty Bridge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it still there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They did say, they reminded me. They said, don't go into the woods over there at night. I said, well, I don't plan to, but why not? And they said, well, you know, we just stopped being cannibals about 40 years ago and not everyone bought into this. I said, yeah, right. And they said, but he doesn't live in the village. I said, OK, I won't go there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't walk around by myself. I had this husband."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. So you had some really strong ties with the community there and the people in the village. You've been back several times since, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.029424522877562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They did say, they reminded me. They said, don't go into the woods over there at night. I said, well, I don't plan to, but why not? And they said, well, you know, we just stopped being cannibals about 40 years ago and not everyone bought into this. I said, yeah, right. And they said, but he doesn't live in the village. I said, OK, I won't go there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't walk around by myself. I had this husband."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. So you had some really strong ties with the community there and the people in the village. You've been back several times since, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, about six or seven times. Yeah. They, last time, or one of the times I was there, I said to Tevita, who came to that thing at the museum. I said, well, you know. I introduced him as my friend and he said, no, Betty, after 40 years, we're more than friends, we're family. And so. I do, they are. I didn't realize that as a Peace Corps volunteer, but all the times I've gone back since they are the happiest, the kindest, the nicest, and the poorest people. All rolled into one. And living on this village that has water coming into it and has not advanced, I wish they had all the amenities. I was hearing at our board meeting about they wanted more running toilets. They had no flush toilets out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, flush toilets and solar power."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.032693914308403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't walk around by myself. I had this husband."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. So you had some really strong ties with the community there and the people in the village. You've been back several times since, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, about six or seven times. Yeah. They, last time, or one of the times I was there, I said to Tevita, who came to that thing at the museum. I said, well, you know. I introduced him as my friend and he said, no, Betty, after 40 years, we're more than friends, we're family. And so. I do, they are. I didn't realize that as a Peace Corps volunteer, but all the times I've gone back since they are the happiest, the kindest, the nicest, and the poorest people. All rolled into one. And living on this village that has water coming into it and has not advanced, I wish they had all the amenities. I was hearing at our board meeting about they wanted more running toilets. They had no flush toilets out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, flush toilets and solar power."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean, I don't want them to be backwards. I want them to have all the amenities. So that all the young people will come back and live there. It's a beautiful place, that island. They grow all the best food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure. So anything you want to say about family or talk about your relationships?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 22.258548793676002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, about six or seven times. Yeah. They, last time, or one of the times I was there, I said to Tevita, who came to that thing at the museum. I said, well, you know. I introduced him as my friend and he said, no, Betty, after 40 years, we're more than friends, we're family. And so. I do, they are. I didn't realize that as a Peace Corps volunteer, but all the times I've gone back since they are the happiest, the kindest, the nicest, and the poorest people. All rolled into one. And living on this village that has water coming into it and has not advanced, I wish they had all the amenities. I was hearing at our board meeting about they wanted more running toilets. They had no flush toilets out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, flush toilets and solar power."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean, I don't want them to be backwards. I want them to have all the amenities. So that all the young people will come back and live there. It's a beautiful place, that island. They grow all the best food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure. So anything you want to say about family or talk about your relationships?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm thinking of the time we were there, but it's really my memories are all the times that since."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's fine."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.06505421519556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean, I don't want them to be backwards. I want them to have all the amenities. So that all the young people will come back and live there. It's a beautiful place, that island. They grow all the best food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure. So anything you want to say about family or talk about your relationships?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm thinking of the time we were there, but it's really my memories are all the times that since."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one of the things I'd like to mention that's sort of that third goal of, I don't know where it fits. But when we were, the second year I think. Or was it the first year? I can't remember. But this boy in our family, Alapate, who was not a biological child. He was adopted. He was the son of Manasa's sister, but he didn't have any sons. So he just kerekered the son. She didn't have a husband apparently so. Anyway, he turned out to be the brightest thing around, brighter than his children. And he was one of the only ones that passed the eighth grade leaving exam. The way this worked, at least back then, is if you didn't pass the eighth grade leaving exam, that was the end of education, at least on the island.\n\nAlapate passed the exam with flying colors, but there was no one to pay his school fees. And I think we must have done this his second year, must have been the second year. And so they were all saying, well, I guess he won't go on, this is it. And so I remember John and I just looked at each other again, like this decision about getting married. And we just looked at each other across the room and say, well, we'll pay your school fees. We weren't quite sure what we were going to do at age 24, but we figured we hadn't even spent all our Peace Corps stipend because there was no place to buy anything on the island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nowhere to spend your money."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.973836512480002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were supposed to be there for three weeks, but a boat didn't. And I had a teaching job in Montgomery County. I was an ESOL teacher at Sligo in Eastern Junior High, and there was no way to communicate. I thought I would lose my job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they held it for me. They didn't know where I was, but they held it for me. So that's where I got pregnant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had to bring the boy back. So we did when he was a teenager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's great. I bet it was a big experience for him."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.859818347200003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they held it for me. They didn't know where I was, but they held it for me. So that's where I got pregnant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had to bring the boy back. So we did when he was a teenager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's great. I bet it was a big experience for him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. And, you know, we've brought his son back. So I think that this relationship that we have with this mataqali will continue, because now my sons, they're all on Facebook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they're connected with people that they've met back in Fiji, your Fijian family."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.844242608000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had to bring the boy back. So we did when he was a teenager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's great. I bet it was a big experience for him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. And, you know, we've brought his son back. So I think that this relationship that we have with this mataqali will continue, because now my sons, they're all on Facebook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they're connected with people that they've met back in Fiji, your Fijian family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's great."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.350916800000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm gonna set up this pen friends with some of my Fijian sisters' daughters, because they're all on Facebook and Facebook Messenger. And so I think that. And Tyler went back, you know, the one who's an actor now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he learned to play rugby there and he bonded with Tevita's sons. And so. And they did something very special. This, uh, my Fijian mother Alena died and they, I understand there was what they consider sacred space, but they took me to her gravesite. And then her daughter, who was in the village, she died in October. So, but I got to see her. And when she held my hand in 2017, she said goodbye. And we both knew it was the last time we would see each other. So I would like to continue my relationship. I'm not sure how I'll be able to do that. What's going to make sense? I'm 71 and a half now and I have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have plenty of plenty of years left."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.834352000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm gonna set up this pen friends with some of my Fijian sisters' daughters, because they're all on Facebook and Facebook Messenger. And so I think that. And Tyler went back, you know, the one who's an actor now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he learned to play rugby there and he bonded with Tevita's sons. And so. And they did something very special. This, uh, my Fijian mother Alena died and they, I understand there was what they consider sacred space, but they took me to her gravesite. And then her daughter, who was in the village, she died in October. So, but I got to see her. And when she held my hand in 2017, she said goodbye. And we both knew it was the last time we would see each other. So I would like to continue my relationship. I'm not sure how I'll be able to do that. What's going to make sense? I'm 71 and a half now and I have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have plenty of plenty of years left."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I have some. I don't have cancer or anything, but I have some. I need to have monthly infusions to keep me around places once a month. So I don't know, but Fiji has a place in my heart."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's obvious after all this time. I mean, I don't even have to ask you if you think Peace Corps had an effect on the rest of your life, because that's pretty evident and that's continuing a relationship you've had."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8880000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but it also gave me my career. It gave me two years of teaching, which got me my next teaching job, which got me my next teaching job, and then got me into graduate school. They didn't have these Peace Corps scholarships that they have now. But by the time I went to graduate school, I knew what worked. I just didn't know why. But they hired me to teach in their, to teach their what they call English Language Institute. So I was teaching Saudis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I had already been teaching and I was married and I was safe. So it not only gave me the relationships, but it gave me a career. And I've been teaching, working in the field of English as a second language, and it's given me an appreciation of the importance of speaking the language of your students. And that was what got me a job in Montgomery County. They required you to have lived, worked overseas and to have learned another language and all of that I got through the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. Yeah. You know, my. I said this in the video I did for, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The 50th anniversary?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 4.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. Yeah. You know, my. I said this in the video I did for, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The 50th anniversary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The 50th anniversary. So if I just broke even in terms of what I did there, I didn't do any harm. I don't think we did any harm. It's made me a better American. It took me out of my comfortable middle class life, and I think I was very lucky to get to go to Fiji and to experience the most beautiful place I've ever been in, with the nicest people, but also extreme poverty in a sense, a rural sense. And it gave me a sense of other. And yet I feel that the Fijians have what so many other indigenous people don't have, and that is their land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they have an intense pride. And I really wish for them that they can continue that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to say in summary?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The 50th anniversary. So if I just broke even in terms of what I did there, I didn't do any harm. I don't think we did any harm. It's made me a better American. It took me out of my comfortable middle class life, and I think I was very lucky to get to go to Fiji and to experience the most beautiful place I've ever been in, with the nicest people, but also extreme poverty in a sense, a rural sense. And it gave me a sense of other. And yet I feel that the Fijians have what so many other indigenous people don't have, and that is their land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they have an intense pride. And I really wish for them that they can continue that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to say in summary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think if. You asked me who was I speaking to. If I'm speaking to people who may think of joining the Peace Corps, and I alluded to this in the beginning. The hardest part was not joining, was not leaving America. I mean, we were 22, just married and free. The hardest part was coming back. We didn't fit in. Our friends had moved on and started having babies and doing sort of bourgeois things and wanting houses and stuff like that. So we went back overseas again and we didn't really settle down until about, you know, maybe ten years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was the beginning of a whole different lifestyle for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they have an intense pride. And I really wish for them that they can continue that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to say in summary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think if. You asked me who was I speaking to. If I'm speaking to people who may think of joining the Peace Corps, and I alluded to this in the beginning. The hardest part was not joining, was not leaving America. I mean, we were 22, just married and free. The hardest part was coming back. We didn't fit in. Our friends had moved on and started having babies and doing sort of bourgeois things and wanting houses and stuff like that. So we went back overseas again and we didn't really settle down until about, you know, maybe ten years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was the beginning of a whole different lifestyle for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I regret maybe we didn't stay a third year or stay in the Pacific. I think I would have been very happy to do that. But this husband of mine wanted to go to Africa, so we went to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, thank you very much, Betty."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00086:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think if. You asked me who was I speaking to. If I'm speaking to people who may think of joining the Peace Corps, and I alluded to this in the beginning. The hardest part was not joining, was not leaving America. I mean, we were 22, just married and free. The hardest part was coming back. We didn't fit in. Our friends had moved on and started having babies and doing sort of bourgeois things and wanting houses and stuff like that. So we went back overseas again and we didn't really settle down until about, you know, maybe ten years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was the beginning of a whole different lifestyle for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I regret maybe we didn't stay a third year or stay in the Pacific. I think I would have been very happy to do that. But this husband of mine wanted to go to Africa, so we went to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, thank you very much, Betty."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this concludes our interview."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 38.98704649848142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That didn't work out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was medical stuff. You know, there are some things on my record were. Of course, now the way that it works, as opposed to, I guess, like how it used to work in the past, is you didn't use to have to get medically cleared for. You'd have to get medically cleared first and then apply. It was the reverse, so you would get accepted and then you would have to get medically cleared. And so, you know, I had originally really, I was really interested in post-Soviet states. I'd really wanted to go to Kosovo or Armenia. Those sounded fascinating to me, but as soon as they saw Spanish, there was like pigeonholed me for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you spoke Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I had spent some time, you know, just like both like within New Orleans and just on the border, like working with refugees who would come over from, you know, Central America. And then also too, there were a lot of like when people cross over from East Africa, usually what they'll do is they'll fly in from like Nairobi into Brazil and then go overland up, like through Colombia, through Panama, through Costa Rica. And they just make that trail up and eventually wind up at the border with the United States, like 20 minutes away from where I live. And so by the time they get there, too, they are all pretty much fluent in Spanish. So I was learning Spanish from people from Eritrea, Somalia, Ethiopia. Zany stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow, so you had been working with refugees?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.819114491676626, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it's everywhere, man. You think it's just teenagers in the United States, but it's just you. It's there too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So describe the school to me. What kind of facility was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had originally been really nice. It had originally been designed with plumbing. And this is something that, like a lot of people had kind of noticed and I'm, you know, still kind of mystified like why this would be. It had restrooms that were like hooked up to plumbing, but they were all locked and there was no water coming out of the toilets at all. We could never really figure out why that was, you know? You know, a lot of it, like the toilets were either just like completely broken, like someone had kind of come in and broken them. We really weren't too sure like why that vandalism would be. But, you know, for the most part, the classrooms were just kind of. They usually had, um, they were made of brick, they're made of cinder block that had been painted over. Usually two walls of those were some of the brick had kind of like holes, decorative holes that were kind of cut inside to permit some kind of airflow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ventilation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, ventilation. Most rooms had a fan just because, you know it would be necessary to kind of keep away the heat. But of course, you know, the power would be out. And it really wouldn't help out too much. So sometimes you'd try to have class outside, really wouldn't work out too well. The English classroom that I taught in, you know, was really nice because it was one of the few rooms other than the administrators' rooms that had AC. But about midway through, probably six months in, like the AC broke. And so, you know, we'd have to open up all the windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any way to fix it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.599630925841307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Completely different. Yeah. And it was, you know, my friend Matt in Dibulla also had a similar experience as well. His host family, they were just mounay in that family were just so lovely. You know, Matt was just like their new son, their new gringo son. And then he goes, and he's like living in Dibulla and it's just like stone faced, you know, maybe exchange like one word, you know, with the family the entire week. And it's just it was different and that was tough. That was really, it was really tough. You know, maybe like trying to explain it to other people in Atlantico, they didn't really understand it. Karen had, you know, she had a really wonderful host family in Guachaca, just a lovely, lovely, lovely host family, you know, and it wasn't really. Like it was so hard to describe to other people because it's just that culture in Guajira is so different from the rest of the coast because it was, you know, historically pretty isolated from the rest of the coast. It was just, you know, not developed, you know, there weren't roads going into the capital city until, like probably like 20, like maybe 40 years before. It's a very rural, very isolated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And were you the first Peace Corps volunteer to serve there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I was the first volunteer in that site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They probably didn't get visits from many other outsiders."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they did not. They did not at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was very new to them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.332923250934787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I was the first volunteer in that site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They probably didn't get visits from many other outsiders."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they did not. They did not at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was very new to them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very new to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't know what to do with you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 30.369914723260873, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they did not. They did not at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was very new to them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very new to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't know what to do with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had zero idea of what to do at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did at any point did it get easier? Must have been some kind of acceptance at some point."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 38.19236904868692, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's an interesting question. You know, without Adolinda, it was so hard just because. She never had any break time, and she, you know, so we couldn't just find a free period to talk and go over things. She also lived in Riohacha so far away. You know, it was not a place where I could just kind of like leave and come back. You know, we were making like maybe 23 mil a day, which is 23,000 Colombian pesos. How much would that be in U.S. dollars? Probably not a lot, like maybe eight bucks a day? To get into the city was seven mil. Seven mil ride back. So it's just, it was kind of prohibitive to do like more than once a week, and I wanted to make it, you know, make it count. And so we established a really great relationship.\n\nAnd thankfully, a lot of the work that Mixi was doing in the city, you know, doing classes at the university, I know that Adolinda had the opportunity to do that. And then when I moved sites after the security incident, you know, I know that, you know, I was able to kind of continue some of the work that Mixi had done in the school, in the megacolegio she was working at, just kind of like get them prepped for the other English volunteer who was going to be there. You know, kind of be able to sit with them, work with them on their English skills, answer their questions about, you know, grammar or like a particular English idiom. But you know, they were motivated. Adolinda was always very motivated and very loving and those teachers at the megacolegio in Riohacha were also very motivated as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said you moved sites. So you didn't stay at that one school for your entire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This new site was a different town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was. It was the big city. I got moved. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long did you spend in the smaller? Was that an entire year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 39.1026322763188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This new site was a different town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was. It was the big city. I got moved. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long did you spend in the smaller? Was that an entire year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was over a year. It was probably a year and eight months because I didn't move. I wasn't in Riohacha until, like maybe November of 2018."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was only just your last few months."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 42.336258084798665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was. It was the big city. I got moved. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long did you spend in the smaller? Was that an entire year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was over a year. It was probably a year and eight months because I didn't move. I wasn't in Riohacha until, like maybe November of 2018."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was only just your last few months."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just my last few months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you said there was a security incident."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 17.917590619313902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was, yeah, that was really the toughest part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were close to the end of your service. Maybe it was a good transition for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a good transition. I think it happened at a good time, especially because things were picking up with Camp Hero. You know, Club Hero, at that particular point in time, it was just like, things had kind of fallen apart with our club, Camp Hero. Like I still had these boys, but there wasn't this rule established where they could attend camp again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was, you know, and then I was like, kind of away. And so there was really no way that they were going to be able to come. And, you know, so it kind of happened at a good time, but it was still really difficult because I didn't get to finish out the school year with those boys. So I did get to see them before I left, though, and that was really tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you returned to say goodbye."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.71, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the English guy, and I was just like, I'm a part of this community. Kind of outside of it, but I have this purpose, right? And it's not just like this purpose that I. It's just kind of like, you know, thrust upon me in this really individual way. But it's this thing that kind of permeates throughout this community. And it's just, it's so hard to capture that in the United States, maybe in a really small community. But I mean, just to feel that, to see that at least like once in your life, it's like really incredible just to know that there's something that kind of like exists other than just, you know, the nine to five grind. It kind of ruins you a little bit, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you see any plans in the future for traveling overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, with the Navy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you are going into the Navy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm going into the Navy, and I mean, that certainly was kind of one of those things where, you know, seeing their medical mission. They did a medical mission in Riohacha that I was fortunate enough to take part of. You know, I mean, I'm no nurse or anything like that. So the likelihood of me being on a mission like that was probably pretty slim. But you know, the opportunity to potentially like, you know, to respond in a humanitarian way, if that opportunity ever came up in the Navy, you know, to travel around, maybe in the southern hemisphere and Latin America, that would be incredible. So I mean, I do have those plans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share as we wrap up here?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, with the Navy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you are going into the Navy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm going into the Navy, and I mean, that certainly was kind of one of those things where, you know, seeing their medical mission. They did a medical mission in Riohacha that I was fortunate enough to take part of. You know, I mean, I'm no nurse or anything like that. So the likelihood of me being on a mission like that was probably pretty slim. But you know, the opportunity to potentially like, you know, to respond in a humanitarian way, if that opportunity ever came up in the Navy, you know, to travel around, maybe in the southern hemisphere and Latin America, that would be incredible. So I mean, I do have those plans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share as we wrap up here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Man, how long have we gone for?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not sure."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm going into the Navy, and I mean, that certainly was kind of one of those things where, you know, seeing their medical mission. They did a medical mission in Riohacha that I was fortunate enough to take part of. You know, I mean, I'm no nurse or anything like that. So the likelihood of me being on a mission like that was probably pretty slim. But you know, the opportunity to potentially like, you know, to respond in a humanitarian way, if that opportunity ever came up in the Navy, you know, to travel around, maybe in the southern hemisphere and Latin America, that would be incredible. So I mean, I do have those plans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share as we wrap up here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Man, how long have we gone for?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would be, I'd be really. I thought this was going to be over in 15 minutes so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's see. We're about an hour and 25 minutes, I think."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00108:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Man, how long have we gone for?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm not sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would be, I'd be really. I thought this was going to be over in 15 minutes so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's see. We're about an hour and 25 minutes, I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Golly man, you must've gotten bored with me talking all about that stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, it was great."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00717:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 11.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the time of Challenger we were building at about 17 I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had backed off from the 60 to 24. We had done what we called a 60 minus 36. We had facilitized the plant for 60—whether we would have ever been able to get there is another question—but we put in tooling for 24. We left the open workstations so that if we needed to go up to more we had space to install more tools, but the tooling was supposed to support 24. As I say, at the time of Challenger we had ramped up to about I think 18. Again we didn’t have the extreme TPS activities that we went into after Columbia, so we probably would have been able to meet 24."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m curious how many of them are left, how many tanks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three. There are two of them set for the next two flights, and there’s one that was in stacking position in the Vertical Assembly Building at Michoud during Hurricane Katrina, and some of the roof fell in and some of the concrete fell and hit the tank. They have gone back and repaired it since then and I believe it’s been recertified for flight. But the way the program is set up, when we fly we’ve got to have a rescue vehicle on the pad, and that tank is the tank for the rescue vehicle. Now whether the program is willing to fly it without a rescue vehicle—they initially said, “We’re flying to Station, we can park at Station.” Then they backed off on that. You’ve got to have a rescue vehicle in case there’s a problem before you get to Station. Of course you had to have that when you went to the Hubble [Space Telescope] because you couldn’t really park at Hubble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No room at that inn, is there? Based on all the improvements and enhancements up until now, how long would it take from beginning to end to put a tank in place?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.836193606360496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was one of those seven-day-a-week things, all day, and you'd spend half your night on the airplane getting to the next spot. Didn't see my family very much, but fortunately I still have the same wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good woman."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. When you've got a good one, you hang on to her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew you'd say that. [Laughter] Where are we? I guess that's more than enough of that historical part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. That's a good overview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 46.82605432971261, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See, what it really amounts to is, is politics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because you've got to have a broad base to be able to sell these big giant-buck projects. Then, of course, what happens? Apollo 13 blew up shortly after this meeting. They canceled several missions. Well, Apollo 15 became 16 in equipment. It was still called 15. Then they just canceled 18, 19, and 20. So three-fifths of my job never got done. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very unfortunate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still waiting. Love to see it happen, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'll keep trying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. No reason to stop trying."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 52.028949255236235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because you've got to have a broad base to be able to sell these big giant-buck projects. Then, of course, what happens? Apollo 13 blew up shortly after this meeting. They canceled several missions. Well, Apollo 15 became 16 in equipment. It was still called 15. Then they just canceled 18, 19, and 20. So three-fifths of my job never got done. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very unfortunate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still waiting. Love to see it happen, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'll keep trying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. No reason to stop trying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were first working with the astronauts, even before you became principal investigator, with that early group back in '64, how was that relationship with the astronauts? Did they get into the geology very well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 52.2543880613736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still waiting. Love to see it happen, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'll keep trying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. No reason to stop trying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were first working with the astronauts, even before you became principal investigator, with that early group back in '64, how was that relationship with the astronauts? Did they get into the geology very well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I saw them, the pair that I had, which in one pair was [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] and—not Dick [Richard F.] Gordon [Jr.]. [Charles] Pete Conrad [Jr.]. That was one pair one time. I got acquainted with that pair quite a bit, but the other pairs, of course, were off doing their things. About all I really had in terms of them would be to get their autograph. Everybody gets autographs. I would judge that virtually all of them were seriously interested in trying to learn this stuff. Some of them learned it better than others. When you look back at the training that the crews that went to the Moon had, at least for the last three, 15, 16, 17, where we had the vehicles, I would judge that those people had the equivalent of a master's degree in geology before they went. Rather strange kind of a degree, of course, because you don't have to worry about a lot of the things that a typical geology major or any geology major working here on Earth would have to worry about.\\n\\n I don't remember any crossways kinds of things in these. It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were first building the training for the Apollo, the ones that were going to be long-duration science missions, how did you plan for those? How did you figure out how to train the astronauts and what to look for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.435634340736403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And the other thing Jack did at the end of each place as they're driving off, he summarized everything that he'd seen and learned, so by the time they landed in the Pacific Ocean, we'd written a report about that landing site that was better than the one we used to write for the previous missions, the ninety-day report, ninety days afterwards where the rocks were all opened, you had a chance to see them, you had all the film, you had the chance to talk to the crew, and integrate that to the \"Here's what we did on the Moon.\" We had one that good before they landed, and then it grew from there. My judgment, of course, is send scientists. It happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Luckily they were able to work it out so he could go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, boy, that was a day when there was a big splashdown party going on at one of the apartment complexes right across from JSC, and that evening they were going to be announcing the Apollo 17 crew. Schmitt was there, Gordon was there. Schmitt and Gordon were a pair as backup on Apollo 15, and since I was the backup, or the understudy, I was the geology team leader for them, so I knew Jack from that. So I really then worked with him on two different missions. I'd also known him when he was an undergrad and I was finishing my doctorate at Cal Tech. So almost incest, I guess. [Laughter] Wrong word there. We ought to scratch that one and add another word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the announcement was made—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all kind of antsy, and finally the announcement was made. Dick Gordon was probably one of the more unhappy people, but he recognized that, yes, they're going to have to send Schmitt. If Apollo 18 had happened, they would have gone as a team. Gene Cernan's partner—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Joe [H.] Engle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.37292704526267, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, boy, that was a day when there was a big splashdown party going on at one of the apartment complexes right across from JSC, and that evening they were going to be announcing the Apollo 17 crew. Schmitt was there, Gordon was there. Schmitt and Gordon were a pair as backup on Apollo 15, and since I was the backup, or the understudy, I was the geology team leader for them, so I knew Jack from that. So I really then worked with him on two different missions. I'd also known him when he was an undergrad and I was finishing my doctorate at Cal Tech. So almost incest, I guess. [Laughter] Wrong word there. We ought to scratch that one and add another word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the announcement was made—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all kind of antsy, and finally the announcement was made. Dick Gordon was probably one of the more unhappy people, but he recognized that, yes, they're going to have to send Schmitt. If Apollo 18 had happened, they would have gone as a team. Gene Cernan's partner—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Joe [H.] Engle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Joe. Of course, was cut out and Schmitt was placed in there, and Joe wasn't a very happy guy either, because here's their opportunity to do something. But looking back on it, I think they did the only thing that was possible. You've got to send a scientist, especially when you have the National Academy of Sciences, who were the chief honchos of trying to select these scientist astronauts. Then if you didn't use them, what kind of an engineering organization are you? [Laughter] Anyway, so he went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at both his selection and also the integration of working with Mission Control, building the time lines, and so forth, and just the whole focus on the science side, because initially there wasn't that much, like you said, \"Let's get to the Moon first and see,\" how did that work out for you in integrating those two parts?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.55916919168231, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Joe. Of course, was cut out and Schmitt was placed in there, and Joe wasn't a very happy guy either, because here's their opportunity to do something. But looking back on it, I think they did the only thing that was possible. You've got to send a scientist, especially when you have the National Academy of Sciences, who were the chief honchos of trying to select these scientist astronauts. Then if you didn't use them, what kind of an engineering organization are you? [Laughter] Anyway, so he went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at both his selection and also the integration of working with Mission Control, building the time lines, and so forth, and just the whole focus on the science side, because initially there wasn't that much, like you said, \"Let's get to the Moon first and see,\" how did that work out for you in integrating those two parts?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The integrating parts, I can credit Jack [John R.] Sevier as an absolute genius at being able to work with us and with the rest of the directorate and integrating all of these different egotists, each scientist with his own experiment, my God, one of the greater egotists of all, a bunch of prima donnas, and trying to make them all work together and satisfying the time demands and the time needs that they have, squeezing it down until, yes, we can get it done in this hunk of time, Jack was the most instrumental person in that. Unfortunately, he died here a few months ago. I hope you talked with him before he went. He would have been able to tell you a lot of stories. We spent a lot of evenings in his house, his wife isolated in the bedroom while we harangued these science/engineering questions around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately, we weren't able to talk with him before. That's a big loss for us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And for everyone."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 36.176854657424784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The integrating parts, I can credit Jack [John R.] Sevier as an absolute genius at being able to work with us and with the rest of the directorate and integrating all of these different egotists, each scientist with his own experiment, my God, one of the greater egotists of all, a bunch of prima donnas, and trying to make them all work together and satisfying the time demands and the time needs that they have, squeezing it down until, yes, we can get it done in this hunk of time, Jack was the most instrumental person in that. Unfortunately, he died here a few months ago. I hope you talked with him before he went. He would have been able to tell you a lot of stories. We spent a lot of evenings in his house, his wife isolated in the bedroom while we harangued these science/engineering questions around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately, we weren't able to talk with him before. That's a big loss for us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And for everyone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's nobody like him. But he was instrumental, and you've got to have somebody like him in the system to act as an interagency actor, whatever you want to call him, coordinator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's fortunate that he was able to be there and help make it all happen."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.08539406380532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And for everyone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's nobody like him. But he was instrumental, and you've got to have somebody like him in the system to act as an interagency actor, whatever you want to call him, coordinator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's fortunate that he was able to be there and help make it all happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. Another one of my heroes of that era."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking more specifically at Apollo, you said you were involved to some extent on Apollo 15."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 43.42821562645035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's nobody like him. But he was instrumental, and you've got to have somebody like him in the system to act as an interagency actor, whatever you want to call him, coordinator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's fortunate that he was able to be there and help make it all happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. Another one of my heroes of that era."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking more specifically at Apollo, you said you were involved to some extent on Apollo 15."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was there on all the field trips. I was in the science back room. Actually, maybe I ought to explain how we set up the geology part of the science back room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. That'd be great."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.292349808101285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would have loved to have done that some more. [Laughter] We also tried having the command module pilot join us on one of these field trips, just to have him get involved in a different perspective. He flew over in his T-38 and then landed and came and joined us. I don't know whether it was useful or not, but we did it. I would like to think it would be, just so you see more in detail, so you have a better chance of interpreting when you get up in orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a perspective so different, as you mentioned earlier."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quite different, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being able to see it from both angles would be helpful, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the nice thing about having pictures on the ground as well as pictures from space. You can use both in illustrating the different facets of the whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely. As you were planning for all of these missions, did you spend a lot of time looking at the samples from the earlier missions, especially the ones you hadn't been involved with?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.991499786779205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quite different, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being able to see it from both angles would be helpful, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the nice thing about having pictures on the ground as well as pictures from space. You can use both in illustrating the different facets of the whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely. As you were planning for all of these missions, did you spend a lot of time looking at the samples from the earlier missions, especially the ones you hadn't been involved with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never did. Never had the time. During the ninety days after each mission that we spent there at Johnson Space Center, writing up all the reports and everything, I'd go over to the lunar lab each day and see what's been opened and cleaned up so I could see what the rocks were. But there was certain [members] of my team that were assigned to work with those rocks all the time, so they were the contributors of the information about the rocks, and other guys would work with the photographs. They were always periodically trying to find the crew so we could talk to them and ask them questions.\\n\\n As soon as 16's splashdown, of course, then 17 was on your neck and you were going off of that. When 17 splashed down, it was easy. All of a sudden all we had to do was look at the rocks in the photos and talk with the crew. We didn't have another mission to plan. Wow, it really was different without all those endless other commitments of time and, \"How do I get another roll of film aboard so that they don't run out?\" That went all the way to NASA headquarters before I sold one more magazine of film. \"You're sending a scientist to the Moon, gang. Don't handicap him without giving him enough film.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Got to have the tools that they need."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.192729474319894, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rocco [Petrone] agreed, and away it went. One pound. Then, of course, the question is, what do you want to give up? They charged the vehicle against the geology team, so we had 450 pounds or something like that. You know, made it really look bad. \"Take a wheel off.\" [Laughter] There weren't any spare tires, so you couldn't remove those. They had enough. They always keep a safety factor in these things, and by 17 they were willing to start shaving some of those safety factors down, they'd been so successful. As a matter of fact, by 17, they had the fewest failures on that mission of any of them, and, again, I guess it's just experience. You learn about these things and make sure they don't happen again. That's a key problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other than breaking fenders. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] Hopefully they'll come up with a good fix for that next time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It so happens that they would put their geology pick in a holder on their pants leg so it would stick out as they would go around the vehicle, and those fenders, of course, are flimsy as the devil. All they have to do is stop the rooster tail of dust from coming up over you, which is very important. You've got enough dust problems as it is on those missions. And luckily they took along some duct tape. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, the universal fixer."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.32525497146655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other than breaking fenders. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] Hopefully they'll come up with a good fix for that next time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It so happens that they would put their geology pick in a holder on their pants leg so it would stick out as they would go around the vehicle, and those fenders, of course, are flimsy as the devil. All they have to do is stop the rooster tail of dust from coming up over you, which is very important. You've got enough dust problems as it is on those missions. And luckily they took along some duct tape. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, the universal fixer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The universal fixer. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of like the fenders and duct tape and the weight on the lunar module, were you involved in some of the discussions on any of the tools that they used?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.290438236378453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The universal fixer. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of like the fenders and duct tape and the weight on the lunar module, were you involved in some of the discussions on any of the tools that they used?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Actually, the first meeting I ever went to after I was officially blessed as being principal investigator, Gordon Swann called me up and said, \"Well, Bill, you really ought to come down to this meeting and get a little bit familiar with things. It's on geology hand tools.\"\\n\\n So here's the geology hammer with the head, and the handle was an oval-shaped handle that you grab onto. Some engineer had gotten in a space suit and couldn't get the hammer to hit on the head, so they redesigned it so that the head was askew to the handle. Well, any normal human being would try to work it as a regular hammer. The Apollo 11 crew had a terrible time, so they had to redesign the hammer, put it back to its original shape. Golly.\\n\\n Then the other thing was, all of the tools had an extension handle that you put on and gave a 90-degree twist, it clicked and locked into place, except for the hammer and its extension handle, which was a squeeze grip. You know what happens. You grab the hammer, you hit the squeeze grip, and there goes your extension handle. So they had to redesign that.\\n\\n Here's about thirty people sitting in this room, solving a problem of two dumb things, and I don't know how many salary dollars that represents. It's bound to be a bunch. Then I saw later that to fix those things and do the rattle and roll tests and make sure it was space-worthy cost about 25,000 dollars. That was bucks in 1970. I'd hate to think what they—I could be rich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then two days later, I was in Washington at a meeting, and where should Apollo 14 land? Total other extreme from this sort of thing. What a way to be introduced to business. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many parts, they had to each come together and make it happen."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.1116521436771, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then two days later, I was in Washington at a meeting, and where should Apollo 14 land? Total other extreme from this sort of thing. What a way to be introduced to business. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many parts, they had to each come together and make it happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was largely Lee Silver and Jack Schmitt working together that designed the rake that was taken along. When you just scoop in and pick up the soil, there's an occasional rock sitting in there, and so you're trying to amplify the variety of rocks that you bring back. Well, you're not going to take four scoops if you can help it, so what they did was design this rake with the tines equally spaced so that they'd scrape it through and shake it, and all the finer stuff would come out and you'd have all these little pebbles that were left, just bring them back. They represent—they're big enough pieces that you could cut a slice and see it in thin section under the microscope and really learn a heck of a lot more by having a variety of those. They invented that and got it aboard. It was used in the last couple of missions, a really useful tool.\\n\\n But I never designed one. I just ended up hearing about redesigning tools. There was a stereocamera that they were going to use, and because of the small company bit, this little outfit got this contract. Well, instead of modifying a Hassleblad or a Kodak camera, one of these already workable and working, they were designing their own shutter systems and, oh, Lordy, and they could never get any consistent workings out of it. I made the statement, \"It'll never work,\" and that kind of caused a flurry of, \"You're not supposed to say that out loud\" kind of thing. But it was true; it never worked. So we didn't have it. It's all right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had enough other things that did work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Some things that probably should have taken and didn't take."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you can always think of something else."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.346280159641225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was largely Lee Silver and Jack Schmitt working together that designed the rake that was taken along. When you just scoop in and pick up the soil, there's an occasional rock sitting in there, and so you're trying to amplify the variety of rocks that you bring back. Well, you're not going to take four scoops if you can help it, so what they did was design this rake with the tines equally spaced so that they'd scrape it through and shake it, and all the finer stuff would come out and you'd have all these little pebbles that were left, just bring them back. They represent—they're big enough pieces that you could cut a slice and see it in thin section under the microscope and really learn a heck of a lot more by having a variety of those. They invented that and got it aboard. It was used in the last couple of missions, a really useful tool.\\n\\n But I never designed one. I just ended up hearing about redesigning tools. There was a stereocamera that they were going to use, and because of the small company bit, this little outfit got this contract. Well, instead of modifying a Hassleblad or a Kodak camera, one of these already workable and working, they were designing their own shutter systems and, oh, Lordy, and they could never get any consistent workings out of it. I made the statement, \"It'll never work,\" and that kind of caused a flurry of, \"You're not supposed to say that out loud\" kind of thing. But it was true; it never worked. So we didn't have it. It's all right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had enough other things that did work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Some things that probably should have taken and didn't take."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you can always think of something else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. The way it goes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll take a brief pause here and change out our tape. [Recorder turned off, brief interruption]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.733394542967876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The measles bit stopped them. So, anyway, the training was always the same. It was a big advantage, as it turned out for me, because I got well acquainted with working with Schmitt and with the Capcom that they had, who became the Capcom in 17. So Bob Parker, the physicist astronaut, and us got well acquainted throughout all that sort of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Built a good relationship."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were doing some of the field training, were you involved with them in setting up the ALSEP [Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package]? Did they do any of that during these trips?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. On these trips we never did those. It was purely the geology part of them. The ALSEP training was done there at JSC or at the Cape. We hauled two freight car loads of basalt near Flagstaff [Arizona] to the Cape to cover up the seashells. [Laughter] So they could look a little more like the Moon. Then dug craters into it, salted it with certain kinds of rocks. I spent all kinds of time trying to find Jack Schmitt's dissertation rocks to slip in there on the last exercise. [Laughter] I got a hold of them two weeks too late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] That would have been good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 24.362215485145526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. On these trips we never did those. It was purely the geology part of them. The ALSEP training was done there at JSC or at the Cape. We hauled two freight car loads of basalt near Flagstaff [Arizona] to the Cape to cover up the seashells. [Laughter] So they could look a little more like the Moon. Then dug craters into it, salted it with certain kinds of rocks. I spent all kinds of time trying to find Jack Schmitt's dissertation rocks to slip in there on the last exercise. [Laughter] I got a hold of them two weeks too late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] That would have been good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought that would have been great, because his dissertation area in Norway, where mafic/ultramafic rocks are the same kinds of things we're finding on the Moon, so it would have been logical kind of rocks, except they'd have a little—in those days we used red fingernail polish to paint on there and then ink in a number on top of that, the number of that sample. But I think every geologist used fingernail polish because it goes on easily, and when it sets up it's nice and hard and then you use your india ink and you've got a good contrast there. But we were just hoping and praying that we could get the dang things, and they were hidden in the recesses of Harvard's collections. Oh, well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great idea, but didn't work. So, where were we?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Having mentioned the ALSEP, were you involved in any of the planning for that? You said not in the setting up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 26.998281910185646, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did it on 17, worked all right. Of course, then they had redesigned the cables such that there was no way they were going to get torn apart. I remember Lee Silver behind me jittering, \"Watch out! Watch out, guys! Watch out!\" as they were walking by the cables. I turned around and said, \"Lee, they're going to have to tear the planet apart before they can get those cables unhooked. Forget it.\" [Laughter] And I think that phrase—and I said it differently. [But] it's in the Apollo 17 movie that they used to show all the time, the half-hour things. After each mission, they generated a film about each mission.\\n\\n That's the other thing. Always in the back room there was a NASA cameraman taking film, and quite often a still-camera guy, too. So there's gazillions of—I don't know what they took. Very quickly you don't pay any attention to the camera anymore and you're doing your job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had some rather exciting things to be focused on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes. You'd better focus on that rather than giving a big smile to the camera. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or giving them your best profile instead of the other one, or whatever the case may be. To heck with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talking about Apollo 16, and this was the one that you were starting with and was fully going to be under you and so forth, tell us about that and how it went."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.664757677984053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes. You'd better focus on that rather than giving a big smile to the camera. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or giving them your best profile instead of the other one, or whatever the case may be. To heck with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talking about Apollo 16, and this was the one that you were starting with and was fully going to be under you and so forth, tell us about that and how it went."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried something different with the field trip training on one exercise, just to—I wanted these guys to be able to understand how we make maps. The only time they'd made a map was back there in '64 out in West Texas, and that was on earth, and I'd worked in an area in Northeast New Mexico one summer near Capulin Mountain, a little perfect volcano that's a national monument out there, and mapped the region for the state of New Mexico on a groundwater project.\\n\\n It was the kind of an area where you had a half a dozen different volcanoes that went, \"Burp,\" and rolled their lava flows out across the country. If you worked it right, you could figure here's where they overlap, and therefore we've got to go here to see which one's on top. So I let them make their own map of this hunk of country, starting from each volcano and then tracing out the margins of the flows, and then, \"Okay, now where do you want to go to go and check this out?\" Luckily there are just enough roads that you could use the roads, a little bit of walking to do this, and we went out and did it then. So as far as I know, they're the only crew that ever made their own map and went out and field-checked it before going to the Moon, where somebody else made the map and there to go field-check it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they take to the exercise pretty well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.99229060269277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, luckily they'd seen all the lunar rocks from before, so they were at least familiar with the different kinds of beat-up rocks that happen in a meteorite impact area. It gets blasted apart, partly melted, then cemented together again as you're flying through the—I can't say \"air.\" [Laughter] Through space. Till it finally gets to the landing spot. Like the \"Big Muehly\" had that big glass rim on it. Probably had one all the way around it. Must have been a terrible place to be with all these broken-up pieces and all this glass, molten rocks as well as solid pieces. Obviously we wouldn't have survived. It happened so long ago, we don't have to worry about it.\\n\\n John [Young] and Charlie [Charles M. Duke, Jr.] were a very complementary pair in the way they worked. Charlie was talking all the time, jabbering away and describing things, and John, whenever he did say something, you'd better listen. It was important. We caught on to that pretty quickly early in the game. John would correct things that he saw that made him interpret it differently than Charlie. They worked together, as I see it, quite well. Did a heck of a good job, especially with the handicap that we gave them by telling them the wrong kind of stuff that they're going to be finding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you a hard time about that later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they never did. We deserved it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure they realized that you were just making—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What bugs me is, I liked the minority interpretation, but because the guys that had spent their lifetime on this stuff said, \"This is the way it is,\" I accepted that, rather than quizzing them even greater. The guy who stuck by this other interpretation was such a weird character that you could see why the other ideas became the more prevalent ones. Very different personality."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that wasn't the only time that you were expecting one thing and then ended up with another."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.427036574267213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Great imaginations, too. [Laughter] Well, they had something. I was impressed, to say the least.\\n\\n So here the crew gets up to the rim of this giant crater, and, of course, we're running tight on time all the time because we have to get back and launch, keep the guarantees from failing on us, because you don't have your friendly gas station to come out and pump up your tires or whatever it might be. Then they were done in that area and they suggested, \"Why don't we go over to House Rock.\" \"Fine, go do it.\"\\n\\n God amighty, they started walking and they'd get smaller and smaller and smaller, and they're still not there and the time is running out. You start fretting, and they finally got to the darn thing. Of course, there's no pictures that show you the whole thing because it's simply so big. Well, they got some really intriguing rock samples out of that thing.\\n\\n They didn't want to walk too close to the inside of the crater, but they did take some panoramas across there, really amazing spectrum of rocks. That would have been a great place to have been able to spend a lot more hours, but no way. Had to drive home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They always have to balance those needs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Safety comes first. That was rule one. You never broke that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. If you didn't have that, then—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something was wrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you probably wouldn't have had much support for all the missions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.252262860296902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Safety comes first. That was rule one. You never broke that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. If you didn't have that, then—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something was wrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—you probably wouldn't have had much support for all the missions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talking about the photographs before the mission and looking at it and planning it out, there were some discussions for going to the Tycho region on Apollo 16, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.9792148457505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Makes you wonder. Well, I guess the only thing we can say in defense of it is, everything was going so fast, you didn't have time to sit and think long enough about some of these things. You're running. If you had punched them off every six months or a year apart, you might have had time to think these things through and come up with a better answer. You might have ended up talking yourself out of that spot, though. That might not have been what you wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They did manage to come back with interesting information, even if it wasn't what was expected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's right. Fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Moving on to Apollo 17, we've talked about it a little bit back and forth here, but were there any points on Apollo 17 or any big issues that came up besides with the orange soil and, of course, Jack Schmitt running around and doing his interpretations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I described how we set up the thing, so he ran the mission for me. I appreciated the help. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good to have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.865794273056114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's right. Fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Moving on to Apollo 17, we've talked about it a little bit back and forth here, but were there any points on Apollo 17 or any big issues that came up besides with the orange soil and, of course, Jack Schmitt running around and doing his interpretations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I described how we set up the thing, so he ran the mission for me. I appreciated the help. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good to have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we went to every spot that was preplanned, with one exception, and that was one of the craters in the first EVA after they set up the ALSEP. They didn't go as far as we had originally planned into this big crater field sitting out there, but as it turns out, they were all going to be in the same thing, so the nearer one, which we did go sample, did the job, as far as we can tell, perfectly well.\\n\\n They had sort of a small butterfly net kind of a thing which, because we had these long traverses between stops, and no samples in between, they designed this traverse sampler where Jack would just reach out with a little butterfly cup, you know, a butterfly net, and scoop up a scoop and stick it into the sample bag and let us know when he did it, so you just did it by time along these traverses. That way there are samples scattered all over the landing site, which was never done before in any of the other missions. I think that was an idea of his, too. I don't remember now specifically who thought up the Dixie Cup scoop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It turned out pretty useful, too, if I recall, in that it got some sample of the landslide material that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.89384217120254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my, yes. It was a horrendous shock to most of us, the Apollo 11 basalts coming up to be 3.7 to 3.8 billion years old, older than anything we'd dated here on Earth. Holy Toledo! Right off the bat. And that's some of the youngest stuff on the Moon, because it's sitting there in very big sheets, not very much pounded up by meteorites, just the top few meters are all smashed up by them, but the rest of them are visibly—they've got folds in them and you can see the edges of the lava flows and all that kind of good stuff. Come on, guys. That made quite a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly learned a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The other thing it did—there's a bunch of things it did. At Apollo 11, they had a whole bunch of different laboratories that were analyzing for carbon, how much carbon is there. That equals life in some people's thinking, anyhow. So when they reported their results the day of the Lunar Science Conference that all the carbon people gave their papers in succession, they all got a piece of the same sample, and they came out with numbers that are really tremendously different. As they go back through all this, they discover it's how clean they got their lab. And as a result, we've learned how to clean labs, which means the hospitals are a hell of a lot cleaner and our own research labs are a lot cleaner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting correlation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a whole—[out of] trying to see how much organic debris there is on the Moon, all you're doing is checking how dirty your lab was. [Laughter] Sort of what it amounted to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One way to learn. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.993157968002823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The other thing it did—there's a bunch of things it did. At Apollo 11, they had a whole bunch of different laboratories that were analyzing for carbon, how much carbon is there. That equals life in some people's thinking, anyhow. So when they reported their results the day of the Lunar Science Conference that all the carbon people gave their papers in succession, they all got a piece of the same sample, and they came out with numbers that are really tremendously different. As they go back through all this, they discover it's how clean they got their lab. And as a result, we've learned how to clean labs, which means the hospitals are a hell of a lot cleaner and our own research labs are a lot cleaner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting correlation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a whole—[out of] trying to see how much organic debris there is on the Moon, all you're doing is checking how dirty your lab was. [Laughter] Sort of what it amounted to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One way to learn. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One of the cleanest labs was the one at Cal Tech, which has the worst smog at that time in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.325731075558693, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a whole—[out of] trying to see how much organic debris there is on the Moon, all you're doing is checking how dirty your lab was. [Laughter] Sort of what it amounted to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One way to learn. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One of the cleanest labs was the one at Cal Tech, which has the worst smog at that time in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was all burning gasoline mostly. When I grew up there, we used to burn our paper trash in the back yard and in incinerators. They gave that up. That was the first thing that got eliminated, back yard trash burners."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably just as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.917478972842993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One of the cleanest labs was the one at Cal Tech, which has the worst smog at that time in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was all burning gasoline mostly. When I grew up there, we used to burn our paper trash in the back yard and in incinerators. They gave that up. That was the first thing that got eliminated, back yard trash burners."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably just as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As Apollo 17 was the last mission, manned mission to the Moon, unfortunately. As you said, they originally planned for others, but for various reasons they had to cancel them. What were your thoughts as it came to a close?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.293183917090115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As Apollo 17 was the last mission, manned mission to the Moon, unfortunately. As you said, they originally planned for others, but for various reasons they had to cancel them. What were your thoughts as it came to a close?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tremendous degree of sadness that we didn't carry on the whole thing to the end like the original plans called for, because it was so damn exciting and you're learning so much and you're getting to work with and compete with the best there is, which forces you to do the best you can. Incredible competition in that whole group, the best laboratories in the world, and now all of a sudden we're not going to do that anymore. What are we going to do?\\n\\n Well, I got involved in other NASA stuff, as it turns out, and I'm still involved in training astronauts or trying to teach them. Hell, you can't teach them. They soak it up so fast. All I've got is experience over them. And once they go fly in orbit, around Earth, they beat me out any old day.\\n\\n In some ways it was nice to be home instead of the constant treadmill that you're on, because as soon as one mission's over, you've got to have the plans ready for the next one, and you're constantly playing with that, and half your team is working on the next mission beyond that. So you get schizophrenic in a way, trying to keep all these thing sorted out.\\n\\n I came back here, and the guy that had occupied this office, Hoover Mackin, actually he died before Apollo 11, of open-heart surgery, and they couldn't put him together. So I, being chairman, I wasn't getting anything out of it, I decided, \"I'll take his office.\" So all these bookshelves were here and his maps were there for a long time. I just filled it up with my stuff. But his memory still hangs around here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really great people it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a founder in helping it all—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.92985668776557, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really great people it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a founder in helping it all—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, a member of the National Academy of Sciences and all that good stuff, as well as being a fun guy. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo Program, as a whole, we've talked here about so much of the science aspects of it and the later missions, but yet the Apollo Program originally started for political reasons, and we talked earlier about some of that. Actually, today is the anniversary of the falling of the Berlin Wall, the whole Cold War."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of the impetus behind the Apollo Program. Did you think much about the political side of things and what it had all been about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 38.81095187529508, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, a member of the National Academy of Sciences and all that good stuff, as well as being a fun guy. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo Program, as a whole, we've talked here about so much of the science aspects of it and the later missions, but yet the Apollo Program originally started for political reasons, and we talked earlier about some of that. Actually, today is the anniversary of the falling of the Berlin Wall, the whole Cold War."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of the impetus behind the Apollo Program. Did you think much about the political side of things and what it had all been about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. I generally worry about politics the day before I vote. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a good time. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 50.82381052226977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that's another problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully we can find a way to get back there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it would be fun. The cost of it, when you compare it with the cost of other things, really fairly minimal. We spend more money on liquor than we do on space. I do, too, probably. [Laughter] You can make all those kind of comparisons, you know. Tobacco taxes could probably fund a mission to the Moon. Why don't we use it that way instead of passing it off? Some of the boondoggles we have invented are really something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's not get into those kind of—erase that off the record. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, after the Apollo Program, you moved in and did some work with Skylab, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 30, "return_to_go": 56.47090058029974, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it would be fun. The cost of it, when you compare it with the cost of other things, really fairly minimal. We spend more money on liquor than we do on space. I do, too, probably. [Laughter] You can make all those kind of comparisons, you know. Tobacco taxes could probably fund a mission to the Moon. Why don't we use it that way instead of passing it off? Some of the boondoggles we have invented are really something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's not get into those kind of—erase that off the record. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, after the Apollo Program, you moved in and did some work with Skylab, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was obviously very different. Instead of looking at another planet, now you're looking back at the Earth."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.459094278141443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make it all work as a system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that's the current buzzword, the \"Earth system.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all with the Apollo-Soyuz?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was a co-investigator on that one, as logical follow-on. Farouk El-Baz put together the team of us. Actually, it was most of the people that did the Skylab thing. That was a kind of restricted one, because while they were docked with the Russians, there were no pictures to be taken. Then once we were on our own, we could do what we want. So it was only about four days' worth of actual photography, but we'd set up some things to do.\\n\\n The things that were of most use to me were at the north end of the Dead Sea fault zone, because Skylab got some great pictures from about the Sea of Galilee south to the Red Sea, but the northern part we didn't have anything, and I didn't know much about it. So we had a couple of tracks that went right over it and they took these stereosets which I then used with existing geologic maps and made my own geologic interpretation, which is different from what the Turks had done there. So they invited me over and we went and spent a bunch of time in there and looked at all of the different things. I was right, as it turned out. Made me feel good, or I wouldn't have told you about this story. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You definitely want to get the ones where you're right."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.621215864601602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that's the current buzzword, the \"Earth system.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all with the Apollo-Soyuz?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was a co-investigator on that one, as logical follow-on. Farouk El-Baz put together the team of us. Actually, it was most of the people that did the Skylab thing. That was a kind of restricted one, because while they were docked with the Russians, there were no pictures to be taken. Then once we were on our own, we could do what we want. So it was only about four days' worth of actual photography, but we'd set up some things to do.\\n\\n The things that were of most use to me were at the north end of the Dead Sea fault zone, because Skylab got some great pictures from about the Sea of Galilee south to the Red Sea, but the northern part we didn't have anything, and I didn't know much about it. So we had a couple of tracks that went right over it and they took these stereosets which I then used with existing geologic maps and made my own geologic interpretation, which is different from what the Turks had done there. So they invited me over and we went and spent a bunch of time in there and looked at all of the different things. I was right, as it turned out. Made me feel good, or I wouldn't have told you about this story. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You definitely want to get the ones where you're right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Every once in a while you are right. You might as well talk about it. [Laughter] There's too many times you aren't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you probably didn't work a whole lot with any of the Russians?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.02357318289067, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was a co-investigator on that one, as logical follow-on. Farouk El-Baz put together the team of us. Actually, it was most of the people that did the Skylab thing. That was a kind of restricted one, because while they were docked with the Russians, there were no pictures to be taken. Then once we were on our own, we could do what we want. So it was only about four days' worth of actual photography, but we'd set up some things to do.\\n\\n The things that were of most use to me were at the north end of the Dead Sea fault zone, because Skylab got some great pictures from about the Sea of Galilee south to the Red Sea, but the northern part we didn't have anything, and I didn't know much about it. So we had a couple of tracks that went right over it and they took these stereosets which I then used with existing geologic maps and made my own geologic interpretation, which is different from what the Turks had done there. So they invited me over and we went and spent a bunch of time in there and looked at all of the different things. I was right, as it turned out. Made me feel good, or I wouldn't have told you about this story. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You definitely want to get the ones where you're right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Every once in a while you are right. You might as well talk about it. [Laughter] There's too many times you aren't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you probably didn't work a whole lot with any of the Russians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't work with the Russians at all, strictly with our own troops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In between Skylab and Apollo-Soyuz, after that there wasn't anything for a while."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.54762121344527, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't work with the Russians at all, strictly with our own troops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In between Skylab and Apollo-Soyuz, after that there wasn't anything for a while."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There wasn't anything for a while, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Let me take five minutes off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. [Tape recorder turned off]\\n\\n In between Skylab and Apollo-Soyuz and then Shuttle, you came back to work and were teaching."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 29.497356903828077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There wasn't anything for a while, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Let me take five minutes off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. [Tape recorder turned off]\\n\\n In between Skylab and Apollo-Soyuz and then Shuttle, you came back to work and were teaching."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, all that time I was teaching. Apollo-Soyuz, fortunately, flew during the summer, so I could be down there in Mission Control during the mission. Skylab, I never was. Didn't need to. The phone works. In those days, the mail service worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In coming back to teaching, did you integrate now your experience with Apollo into the classroom?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.946219625185254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, probably none of the people that did this will go to those planets, but by the time we do go, they'll be up in the management positions and they'll have a little feel, a better feel, for what it is that these guys are going to do or try to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do the Shuttle astronauts adapt to the geology training? Are they pretty receptive to it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my, yes. Out of the couple hundred that went through this thing, I think there's only one that I have any qualms about as being uninterested."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every time we look at these pictures after a mission, they say, \"God, it was better than that.\" You've got them on the screen, big megasize, and I'm thinking, \"Wow, isn't that fantastic,\" and they're saying, \"Hell, it was better than that.\" I don't know what they can really see. This has been one of the ploys I've tried to get so I could go fly. \"I don't know what they can really see, because they're telling me it's better than these pictures. And if I did, maybe I could then find out and do a better teaching job.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like a good argument to me."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.829132916872503, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my, yes. Out of the couple hundred that went through this thing, I think there's only one that I have any qualms about as being uninterested."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every time we look at these pictures after a mission, they say, \"God, it was better than that.\" You've got them on the screen, big megasize, and I'm thinking, \"Wow, isn't that fantastic,\" and they're saying, \"Hell, it was better than that.\" I don't know what they can really see. This has been one of the ploys I've tried to get so I could go fly. \"I don't know what they can really see, because they're telling me it's better than these pictures. And if I did, maybe I could then find out and do a better teaching job.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like a good argument to me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried that out on Senator John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] when I briefed his crew. He was really listening. He was really interested in the subject. It was afterwards I discovered he had to go buy his own camera in the drugstore when he flew [the first time], so he could take his own pictures. NASA wouldn't furnish him one because they didn't want him to be fooling around with this other stuff. But, about halfway through, I stopped and said, \"Damn it, John, I could have been the geriatric specimen on this mission. Besides that, I could find out what these guys can really see. They keep telling me it's better than this.\" And he smiles and says, \"After me.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you need to call him up now and say, \"It's my turn.\" [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.81014768541389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every time we look at these pictures after a mission, they say, \"God, it was better than that.\" You've got them on the screen, big megasize, and I'm thinking, \"Wow, isn't that fantastic,\" and they're saying, \"Hell, it was better than that.\" I don't know what they can really see. This has been one of the ploys I've tried to get so I could go fly. \"I don't know what they can really see, because they're telling me it's better than these pictures. And if I did, maybe I could then find out and do a better teaching job.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like a good argument to me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried that out on Senator John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] when I briefed his crew. He was really listening. He was really interested in the subject. It was afterwards I discovered he had to go buy his own camera in the drugstore when he flew [the first time], so he could take his own pictures. NASA wouldn't furnish him one because they didn't want him to be fooling around with this other stuff. But, about halfway through, I stopped and said, \"Damn it, John, I could have been the geriatric specimen on this mission. Besides that, I could find out what these guys can really see. They keep telling me it's better than this.\" And he smiles and says, \"After me.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you need to call him up now and say, \"It's my turn.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He's gone. I go down next week. I think I'll go and see Mr. Abbey and bug him about this, once again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There you go."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.45697245112826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He's gone. I go down next week. I think I'll go and see Mr. Abbey and bug him about this, once again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There you go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry. It's an off-to-the-side thing, but I was delighted to see him so interested in learning, asking good, intelligent questions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He wasn't along for the ride. He was going to be doing something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. And that's good that so many of them were interested."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.952191612364732, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry. It's an off-to-the-side thing, but I was delighted to see him so interested in learning, asking good, intelligent questions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He wasn't along for the ride. He was going to be doing something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. And that's good that so many of them were interested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Half of them, roughly, in the past, anyhow, used to be military pilots, flown all over the world and don't know what they've been looking at. So here I am helping them find out. \"When you're flying to L.A., you're going to go over this and this and this.\" \"Oh, yes.\"\\n\\n When I show them some of the picture taken from orbit, every once in a while I get some 35-millimeter slides taken from somewhere they've been flying in some T-38, \"And if you can identify these, Bill, you can have them,\" one of those kind of things. [Laughter] Luckily, I've been able to work them out since they give me a long enough string of pictures that you can find something that is familiar enough that, \"Oh, yes, they've got to be in this region,\" and you can work backwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like you've got a pretty good rapport with them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 32.85622992093927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Of course, looking at the Earth is different from all the other stuff. They're trained to work checklists, got to do this, got to do this. If this happens, then I do this. That's the whole kind of training. All the equipment that they're going to be working with in the laboratories on the Shuttle, they learn how to operate all that stuff. That's a different attitude or approach than exploring, where you don't know what you're going to find, but let's see if we can find it and figure it out or work these things together.\\n\\n Exploring the Earth is a different thing. You see something that grabs your eye you didn't know about, take a picture of it. Very often those pictures have been educational as the devil. There's one Shuttle picture looking at the eye of a hurricane, with little thunderstorm topknots sitting in various places. The weathermen hadn't realized that you might have thunderstorms inside a hurricane, which equals tornados. These extra real strong bursts that they talk about apparently are those things. Until that picture came along, they hadn't even thought about it. That's only about five years now that that idea's gotten in. God knows how these pictures will change something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of benefits."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they don't cost much to take, and they're all sitting on the Internet, so all of us get to use them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good for everybody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good for everybody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're going to pause here real quick and change our tape out, if that's okay. [Tape turned off and changed]\\n\\n You mentioned the hurricane and that particular picture and how much can be learned from that. Are there any others that you can think of offhand, pictures taken from the Shuttle Program, that made a big difference in any particular areas of earth science?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.13356183651771, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And because there's no soil to soak in the water, it just runs off and away it goes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's a lot to be learned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's lots of other pictures, and I'm sure that as soon as we stop, I'll think of them all. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. That's how it works. You mentioned using the CD for Space Station. Have you done other planning ahead for Space Station Earth observations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the project I've been working on for the last six months is the India Plate crash, which occupies most of Asia. The reason I started with the Arabian plate is that it hasn't moved very far yet, so you're dealing with beautiful structures and simpler problems, but India has been jamming in there for 50 million years and is beaten up stuff clear up by Lake Baikal, 1,000 kilometers to the north. So you need to work out all these different pieces. Boy, am I learning a lot of geography and geology by doing this. That's fun for me. And I get paid for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's even better."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.8150687072419, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's lots of other pictures, and I'm sure that as soon as we stop, I'll think of them all. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. That's how it works. You mentioned using the CD for Space Station. Have you done other planning ahead for Space Station Earth observations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the project I've been working on for the last six months is the India Plate crash, which occupies most of Asia. The reason I started with the Arabian plate is that it hasn't moved very far yet, so you're dealing with beautiful structures and simpler problems, but India has been jamming in there for 50 million years and is beaten up stuff clear up by Lake Baikal, 1,000 kilometers to the north. So you need to work out all these different pieces. Boy, am I learning a lot of geography and geology by doing this. That's fun for me. And I get paid for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's even better."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On occasion. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good to still be able to keep learning and building on all this experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.572298563602111, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the project I've been working on for the last six months is the India Plate crash, which occupies most of Asia. The reason I started with the Arabian plate is that it hasn't moved very far yet, so you're dealing with beautiful structures and simpler problems, but India has been jamming in there for 50 million years and is beaten up stuff clear up by Lake Baikal, 1,000 kilometers to the north. So you need to work out all these different pieces. Boy, am I learning a lot of geography and geology by doing this. That's fun for me. And I get paid for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's even better."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On occasion. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good to still be able to keep learning and building on all this experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what life's all about. Keep learning. Otherwise, you'll have big footprints crawling up your back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your work, specifically on the space program, was there a point that you would consider your biggest challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.969220626224567, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On occasion. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good to still be able to keep learning and building on all this experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what life's all about. Keep learning. Otherwise, you'll have big footprints crawling up your back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your work, specifically on the space program, was there a point that you would consider your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Biggest challenge. I'd say the whole Apollo Program was that, was one continuous challenge. I don't know what to discriminate out of that as the max problem time. It could have been when we had to defend saving the last EVA on Apollo 16, where you had just overnight to get the documents together to sell management to say yes. Instead of a seven-hour EVA, they gave us five, and we ran with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And pulled it off successfully."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.410245140249518, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what life's all about. Keep learning. Otherwise, you'll have big footprints crawling up your back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your work, specifically on the space program, was there a point that you would consider your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Biggest challenge. I'd say the whole Apollo Program was that, was one continuous challenge. I don't know what to discriminate out of that as the max problem time. It could have been when we had to defend saving the last EVA on Apollo 16, where you had just overnight to get the documents together to sell management to say yes. Instead of a seven-hour EVA, they gave us five, and we ran with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And pulled it off successfully."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And pulled it off, yes. If only that House Rock hadn't been so far away. [Laughter] If we'd known, probably would have told them to drive there. Then we would have had the TV camera there. As it was, we didn't see anything. All we were doing was hearing them. They'd gone over the edge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good reason to go back."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.4447470867278005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And pulled it off, yes. If only that House Rock hadn't been so far away. [Laughter] If we'd known, probably would have told them to drive there. Then we would have had the TV camera there. As it was, we didn't see anything. All we were doing was hearing them. They'd gone over the edge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good reason to go back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Go back and really look at that crater. Just land it on the rim. Heck, that'll be a skill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly have enough technological advances to help."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.938607874142001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Go back and really look at that crater. Just land it on the rim. Heck, that'll be a skill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly have enough technological advances to help."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, even then, though, they were landing within a couple of yards of the pre-planned point, except for Apollo 11, and there they deliberately had to go downrange to miss all the rockpile."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting that that's the only one that they had that problem with."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4873420823800005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly have enough technological advances to help."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, even then, though, they were landing within a couple of yards of the pre-planned point, except for Apollo 11, and there they deliberately had to go downrange to miss all the rockpile."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting that that's the only one that they had that problem with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't it, though? Dumb computers. [Laughter] But look at where we've landed at Mars. Every one of them has been a rockpile. Luckily, the rocks aren't too big, so you wouldn't sit there tilted too badly, but you don't want to be tilted too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any one point that you would say was your most significant accomplishment or contribution to the space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.0970467582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, even then, though, they were landing within a couple of yards of the pre-planned point, except for Apollo 11, and there they deliberately had to go downrange to miss all the rockpile."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting that that's the only one that they had that problem with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't it, though? Dumb computers. [Laughter] But look at where we've landed at Mars. Every one of them has been a rockpile. Luckily, the rocks aren't too big, so you wouldn't sit there tilted too badly, but you don't want to be tilted too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any one point that you would say was your most significant accomplishment or contribution to the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I like the fact that I did get some science out of it, namely this business of the buckling of the Apollo 17 site and the wrinkling of the lava flows out in the mare basins that I ended up writing about and contributing that aspect to the history, rather than running a team of guys who were all smarter than me and who were doing the science while I was doing the running around to make sure that the—to get the engineers off their back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you have ever imagined where, as you were starting out, that you would even be involved with the space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.774496398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't it, though? Dumb computers. [Laughter] But look at where we've landed at Mars. Every one of them has been a rockpile. Luckily, the rocks aren't too big, so you wouldn't sit there tilted too badly, but you don't want to be tilted too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any one point that you would say was your most significant accomplishment or contribution to the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I like the fact that I did get some science out of it, namely this business of the buckling of the Apollo 17 site and the wrinkling of the lava flows out in the mare basins that I ended up writing about and contributing that aspect to the history, rather than running a team of guys who were all smarter than me and who were doing the science while I was doing the running around to make sure that the—to get the engineers off their back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you have ever imagined where, as you were starting out, that you would even be involved with the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never dreamed that I'd ever been seeing anybody go to another planet, much less be involved in it. I've always been a science fiction fan, so I've always had that attitude. Never thought it would come to pass. Here it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here it did, and hopefully it will continue."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.52721822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I like the fact that I did get some science out of it, namely this business of the buckling of the Apollo 17 site and the wrinkling of the lava flows out in the mare basins that I ended up writing about and contributing that aspect to the history, rather than running a team of guys who were all smarter than me and who were doing the science while I was doing the running around to make sure that the—to get the engineers off their back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you have ever imagined where, as you were starting out, that you would even be involved with the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never dreamed that I'd ever been seeing anybody go to another planet, much less be involved in it. I've always been a science fiction fan, so I've always had that attitude. Never thought it would come to pass. Here it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here it did, and hopefully it will continue."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Amen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, I'd like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they have any questions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.3635758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never dreamed that I'd ever been seeing anybody go to another planet, much less be involved in it. I've always been a science fiction fan, so I've always had that attitude. Never thought it would come to pass. Here it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here it did, and hopefully it will continue."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Amen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, I'd like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they have any questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did have one. I wanted to ask you about being a scientist involved with NASA, which is traditionally an engineering organization—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.292862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Amen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, I'd like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they have any questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did have one. I wanted to ask you about being a scientist involved with NASA, which is traditionally an engineering organization—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—how the relationship between the scientists and the engineers was."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.10318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did have one. I wanted to ask you about being a scientist involved with NASA, which is traditionally an engineering organization—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—how the relationship between the scientists and the engineers was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the biggest problem at the time was during the Apollo days, when you had the really big names of the geochemists and the geophysicists working, and they were the types that wanted their way, now if not yesterday."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Egos you mentioned before?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Once they got sold on the idea that the science needed to be done, yes, I think they did. That was largely the selling of Gene Shoemaker, who sort of invented the whole thing himself. He made the first geologic map of the Moon, demonstrated you could do it using these photographs. He organized the Astrogeology Branch of USGS. He told NASA that, \"Once you're on the Moon, what are you going to be doing? Geology,\" and making sure that that was done. Eventually he was pushing so hard, he got crosswise with NASA management and they didn't want him around. So we took over. He was PI for the first missions, Gordon Swann the middle set, and me the last set. Gene's gone, killed himself in a car wreck. But Gordon Swann's the one you ought to get, because he was Gene's backup and my backup."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'd love to talk to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he's been through the whole thing and he lives just west of Sedona, so you'd probably have a lousy time having to go to Sedona."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all the questions that I had. Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One question occurred to me. You mentioned Gene Shoemaker. Of course, we've talked about Jack Schmitt. Had you ever considered becoming part of the astronaut program yourself, or trying to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he's been through the whole thing and he lives just west of Sedona, so you'd probably have a lousy time having to go to Sedona."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all the questions that I had. Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One question occurred to me. You mentioned Gene Shoemaker. Of course, we've talked about Jack Schmitt. Had you ever considered becoming part of the astronaut program yourself, or trying to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only recently, since the Shuttle days. By the time I got involved in this thing, how old was I? I was in my forties. So that was an old man to those guys. No, I guess not really, because [John] Glenn is two years older than I am. Or am I two years older than he is? It's close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Close enough. I think you fit in the category together."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One question occurred to me. You mentioned Gene Shoemaker. Of course, we've talked about Jack Schmitt. Had you ever considered becoming part of the astronaut program yourself, or trying to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only recently, since the Shuttle days. By the time I got involved in this thing, how old was I? I was in my forties. So that was an old man to those guys. No, I guess not really, because [John] Glenn is two years older than I am. Or am I two years older than he is? It's close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Close enough. I think you fit in the category together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I've thought about it, but at the time I could have done something about it, it was too late. They were all picked and they were all competing with each other. I've applied to go in the Shuttle, been turned down. Could try again. [Laughter] Actually, one of our Earth Obs people did go, but he worked for the Office of Naval Research, so there's a big lobby organization. University of Texas doesn't have a very big lobby front down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, who knows what might be possible."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only recently, since the Shuttle days. By the time I got involved in this thing, how old was I? I was in my forties. So that was an old man to those guys. No, I guess not really, because [John] Glenn is two years older than I am. Or am I two years older than he is? It's close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Close enough. I think you fit in the category together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I've thought about it, but at the time I could have done something about it, it was too late. They were all picked and they were all competing with each other. I've applied to go in the Shuttle, been turned down. Could try again. [Laughter] Actually, one of our Earth Obs people did go, but he worked for the Office of Naval Research, so there's a big lobby organization. University of Texas doesn't have a very big lobby front down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, who knows what might be possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you certainly had quite an important contribution with what you did."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00438:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I've thought about it, but at the time I could have done something about it, it was too late. They were all picked and they were all competing with each other. I've applied to go in the Shuttle, been turned down. Could try again. [Laughter] Actually, one of our Earth Obs people did go, but he worked for the Office of Naval Research, so there's a big lobby organization. University of Texas doesn't have a very big lobby front down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, who knows what might be possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you certainly had quite an important contribution with what you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We appreciate you sharing it with us today. Thank you very much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.20255324224069, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say that there was anywhere from 10 to 15 of us, because if you can imagine what the diameter of the Apollo spacecraft was, then the diameter of the chamber was probably 10 times that. So that was a huge area, and in one shift we were doing good if we could get two floors done of wiping it down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it wasn’t a quick process by any means."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It would probably take a week just to wipe the chamber down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that after a test?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was right before a test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While the LRL was being built, and before it was built actually, there was a lot of controversy about whether it was going to be located here or not. Were you aware of any of that going on in your position? That that was coming and that it was something you wanted to move into?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.669503602489655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It would probably take a week just to wipe the chamber down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that after a test?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was right before a test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While the LRL was being built, and before it was built actually, there was a lot of controversy about whether it was going to be located here or not. Were you aware of any of that going on in your position? That that was coming and that it was something you wanted to move into?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did not know about the argument over where the site was going to be. That was before the time I hired on. What we knew at the time was, the building was being built on site and they were going to need people. I knew that I wanted to be in the vacuum systems part of our program. My best friend, Bob Eason, was in that section and I was in the mechanical section. This would be a chance to get into the vacuum section. We both applied for these openings for Building 37. All of the new hires were trying to get over to Building 37 because we were low man on the totem pole where we were.\\n\\n I was not on the first crew that made it over to 37, but a bunch of my friends made it. They encouraged the staff in 37 to get me if they could, and they knew from several different things that had happened in [Building] 32 that they could use my experience. Actually 32 did not want to let me go, but I won out in the end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of things happened that they knew they could use your experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.25352436534007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The electronics section was about approximately 10 to 15, and the mechanical section was 15 to 16. So you’re talking about 26 guys working either the vacuum chambers or the processing nitrogen cabinets. It’s according to whether you were in Apollo 11, 12, or 14 through 17. Once we stopped the vacuum processing, after Apollo 12, we had two processing lines, which took more people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the backgrounds for the other people that were working with you? Were they varied as far as their experiences?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody was varied. We had people that worked in Air Force electronics. We had people that were just in electronics. We had a slew of engineers. I would say for that system, we had six engineers, plus we had managers that were engineers and supervisors that were engineers. When we ran across a problem, everybody just came together and we just worked it out. Sometimes we didn’t know the exact answer. Sometimes we would just try something. If that didn’t work quite right, well, then we’d try something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was definitely an interesting time when you really didn’t know what you would be facing. You were practicing for something that you didn’t even really know what it was going to be when it got here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The first day when we opened that rock box and all we saw mainly was one or two rocks sticking up and the rest of it was loose soil, that wasn’t what we were really expecting. We did have more rocks, but they were covered up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was concern also when they were building the LRL and some of the controversy over the possibility of back contamination and the contamination not only from the Moon rocks, but contamination of the samples from everything else. Of course that’s why everything had to be pristine. The fear of that contamination, when some people said we didn’t have to worry about it and others thought that we needed to have everything in place in case there were some bugs from space, was that ever a concern for the group, for you personally, or your family?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 43.628295024142766, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I believe we signed a waiver saying that if we did get quarantined, we could only be paid eight hours a day, and that kind of stuff. If there was a medical problem they would take care of us, but we couldn’t sue NASA because of it. I swear I signed that type of waiver. I can’t be positive now. That’s too many years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably in a record somewhere. Well, you mentioned the showering in and out and that sort of thing. So there were a lot of precautions taken to keep everything as pristine on the inside also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We tried to keep contamination away from the samples. We tried to keep any contamination from samples coming towards us. Everything that went in went through at least a UV system. The food for the animals was autoclaved in. All your tools and instruments were autoclaved in. Then, like I said, we walked through a UV lamp to go in, and we were in surgical-type clothes and had a gas mask on our hip ready to put on if there was a spill. Then on our way out we had to shower, and we would change back into our regular clothes. All of the clothes that we had on, they didn’t come to the original side, they stayed on the lunar side, and they were autoclaved before they were sent out to be washed. So every time we went in, we had on a new set of clothes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that process, as far as what you wore and protection, change during Apollo, or did that pretty much stay the same all the way through?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It stayed the same through Apollo 12. After Apollo 12 we just wore regular clothes with company emblems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. You mentioned that you were working long hours for about a five-year period, 12 hours a day pretty much every day."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 35.32658474172766, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we did, as far as I’m concerned. It was a team effort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live in a community with a lot of other NASA people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t know the NASA people as well as I knew the contractor people that I was working with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By NASA I meant both [civil servants and contractors]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The contractor people. Yes, actually most of the guys at that time—well, no, it was about 50/50. Fifty percent of them were in apartment complexes. I know in one complex next to me there were at least five guys in it, which was good, because they could ride together. Then when they had time off, they had something that they could do together. I was within two blocks of that apartment. Then there were two other guys that had houses within eight or ten blocks of us. But as far as being in like the Baybrook section, no, it wasn’t built up that much. All of us were in League City [Texas], because your engineers and NASA upper management were in Nassau Bay [across from JSC], and at that time we couldn’t afford anything like that, so we were in League City, and we were mainly in apartment complexes or renting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know a lot of the neighborhoods and the areas around—because there was such a concentration, and they were all building up because of NASA—a lot of people tended to live close together and work together."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 32.58509415747517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t know the NASA people as well as I knew the contractor people that I was working with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By NASA I meant both [civil servants and contractors]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The contractor people. Yes, actually most of the guys at that time—well, no, it was about 50/50. Fifty percent of them were in apartment complexes. I know in one complex next to me there were at least five guys in it, which was good, because they could ride together. Then when they had time off, they had something that they could do together. I was within two blocks of that apartment. Then there were two other guys that had houses within eight or ten blocks of us. But as far as being in like the Baybrook section, no, it wasn’t built up that much. All of us were in League City [Texas], because your engineers and NASA upper management were in Nassau Bay [across from JSC], and at that time we couldn’t afford anything like that, so we were in League City, and we were mainly in apartment complexes or renting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know a lot of the neighborhoods and the areas around—because there was such a concentration, and they were all building up because of NASA—a lot of people tended to live close together and work together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is true. Kemah, Seabrook, El Lago, Nassau Bay, Webster, and League City. I believe that Interstate 45 South was only two lanes or they were working on it and it was down to two lanes. You know if you are working 12 hours a day and almost 7 days a week, you do not want to live too far away from work. So yes, we were all together in this location. And yes, a lot of the families were close. Another thing, a lot of the people were recruited from other locations, so once they got on they would get their friends on also, then live in the same area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Seabrook area had some communities."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 38.99394340429033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is true. Kemah, Seabrook, El Lago, Nassau Bay, Webster, and League City. I believe that Interstate 45 South was only two lanes or they were working on it and it was down to two lanes. You know if you are working 12 hours a day and almost 7 days a week, you do not want to live too far away from work. So yes, we were all together in this location. And yes, a lot of the families were close. Another thing, a lot of the people were recruited from other locations, so once they got on they would get their friends on also, then live in the same area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Seabrook area had some communities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seabrook area, and El Lago is what I was trying to think of. I would say El Lago was a main one, and then you had Nassau Bay, and then the small towns were Kemah, and Seabrook, and then League City, Webster, and then there wasn’t anything else. So I guess you would say that most of us lived in League City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that there was some contamination from some of the workers during—was it after Apollo 11 that happened? You said that some of them had to go into quarantine with the astronauts."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the process once that happened or once they were aware that they’d been contaminated or cross-contaminated?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 39.048839207880384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We never got to see that done. So I don’t know exactly what they did. Safety took care of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the lunar samples returned and you opened that canister, did you ever have anything to do with the film canisters that were coming back, the first photos taken on the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The vacuum storage system—from our notes, it looked like it was replaced around 1970 by the Sample Storage and Processing Lab, and they were then stored in pure nitrogen containers. How did that affect the work at the LRL and what you were doing, if at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that some of the containers that were sealed under a vacuum are still under a vacuum even today. What I mean is the containers that we used for the vacuum chambers were stainless steel heavy duty containers. If you seal a container under a vacuum and then bring it out to atmosphere pressure, it will collapse due to the pressure that the atmosphere put on the container, if the container is not strong enough. We used the same containers with the GN2 [gaseous nitrogen] cabinets. This was due to the amount of containers that we had bought and the expense of these containers. Sealing a sample in a Nitrogen Cabinet was usually at a positive pressure of 1 inch water gage pressure which is 0.036 psi [pounds per square inch]. The oxygen level is supposed to be less than 20 ppm [parts per million] and the water level was to be less than 50 ppm. This was to keep the samples from rusting. So, with the GN2 cabinets, after using all the heavy duty stuff, we went to a lighter container. The sample was Teflon bagged and the put into a container or put into a container and some Teflon sheeting put in with it for cushioning material. Then the container was triple bagged and stored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that when you were working under that light and actually had that UV exposure, but you were cataloging everything as it was done, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 43.69956252505993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The scientific people—the best way I can explain that is that we knew who they were. We knew who they were because they have given some geology 101 classes The scientists themselves, they were down on the first floor where they had their labs to do their experiments, and they usually had some university tech working with them. So we didn’t have that much time with them—we knew each other and we spoke to each other, but that was about it as far as the scientific. Now we did work with, like I told you, we were going to pull the gas-analysis sample off of the ALSRC, the rock box, before we opened it. We knew who the lead scientist was, but we worked mainly with the university tech that was working with him more than we did with the scientist himself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you just had somewhat of a working relationship."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But by the time Apollo 17 rolled around, well, everybody knew everybody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also worked on those lunar sample information catalogs for the Apollo missions, as far as cataloging the information. Your name appeared on a lot of those. Do you have any memory of that? Or does that ring a bell?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no, I think what happens there on the lunar catalog is that since we did the photography and we did the weighing, they just gave us the respect that we worked on it and just put our name on the catalogs. So if you were working on SNAP line you got a certain set of samples, and you carried them from day one all the way to when they got packaged up and stored. So you were doing the dusting, the cleaning, the data work, and the photography, and putting them in a container and sealing it and getting it out. Then they would take that data and make a catalog out of it, and just in respect that we did the work they just put our name on the catalog. So I really can’t tell you much about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know the universities and those kinds of folks were coming in to get samples to work on, and experiments and things being transferred to other universities. Did you have anything to do with any of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.915124704290005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, especially to see a Rottweiler with his doggone teeth showing and foaming at the mouth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s not what I would want to see when I open a door."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since I had never assumed the position, I really didn’t know what he was talking about—I had never been in trouble with the law before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was San Antonio chosen in the first place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that there were two locations, White Sands [Missile Range, New Mexico] and San Antonio. NASA knew that we were going to have to visit the location at least twice a year. If we needed to transfer out more samples or retrieve some samples then it would be more than that. Brooks was closer and it would be built in a bunker, and you had the Air Force security. After it was built, everything was free, I think. We might have paid them a small fee, but it wasn’t that much a year, because their security was already there. That was one of the reasons we left though, because when the Air Force gave the base to the city, then you had to use the city cops. Their response time was way too slow, and they wanted to charge us a higher price. So we moved out to White Sands. The security is even better at White Sands than what it was in San Antonio. We go through three different gates and we end up with two different badges before it’s over with at White Sands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it a similar setup as at Brooks?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.127916338100004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since I had never assumed the position, I really didn’t know what he was talking about—I had never been in trouble with the law before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was San Antonio chosen in the first place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that there were two locations, White Sands [Missile Range, New Mexico] and San Antonio. NASA knew that we were going to have to visit the location at least twice a year. If we needed to transfer out more samples or retrieve some samples then it would be more than that. Brooks was closer and it would be built in a bunker, and you had the Air Force security. After it was built, everything was free, I think. We might have paid them a small fee, but it wasn’t that much a year, because their security was already there. That was one of the reasons we left though, because when the Air Force gave the base to the city, then you had to use the city cops. Their response time was way too slow, and they wanted to charge us a higher price. So we moved out to White Sands. The security is even better at White Sands than what it was in San Antonio. We go through three different gates and we end up with two different badges before it’s over with at White Sands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it a similar setup as at Brooks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not in a bunker out there. We’re up against the mountains on one side. But at White Sands, you’re so far into the territory that nobody can get to you unless it’s by aircraft. All of that’s monitored, so nothing’s going to get in—aircraft aren’t allowed to fly over that area. For anyone to figure out what building we’re in would be difficult. We aren’t even allowed telephones. Telephones now have cameras in them. We are allowed to bring in a computer.\\n\\n Your security badges have to meet—gosh, I don’t know. Security here on site, you’ve got about four different levels. You have to be at a certain level to even be able to get into the area that we’re going into."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it the same collection that was at Brooks that was moved to White Sands?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00585:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.649621000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know the route. In fact, I don’t think anybody knew the route but security, until that morning. I think they had two security cars in front and two behind, and the lead security guy said, “Okay, we’re going out this way, we’re going to hit so-and-so.” He said, “Okay, in five miles we’re going to be taking a right on so-and-so.” The 18-wheeler guy knew exactly where he was. In fact, he, I think, had one of the security guys in his cab, because he had to communicate to tell him what to do. That’s the way they did it. Instead of having the big deal with the highway patrol and all of that, they toned it way down, and nobody knew that they were hauling rocks. It wasn’t advertised or anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably wasn’t quite as interesting to the public by the time it was moved again in 2002 as it was earlier, either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "True."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What percentage of the collection is actually out there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Approximately 25 percent of the lunar material. You also have samples from Stardust and Genesis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned earlier that the scientists are still studying this because of the technology changes and the changes in the instruments. Then there’s also been a lot of technology changes here in the lab. Not just with the instruments themselves, but going from when you were first cataloging and writing everything down to computers being used on a daily basis and those kinds of technology changes. If you can just for a minute talk about some of those changes and how it’s affected the work here in the lab as far as the lunar samples."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 41.476627256583, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to learn CPR [cardiopulmonary resuscitation] and had this dummy that people still use today called “Resuscitation Annie.” At that time in CPR, they always had you beat on the chest before you did the compressions. So everybody had been talking about it. It was my turn to go down and try, and I whopped the dummy on the chest several times. Hand kind of smarted a little bit. Went through it, and it’s okay. About that time my hand just started to swell up, and I had broken the fifth metacarpal, and everybody concluded they didn’t want to have a heart attack with me around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] Oh, gosh. Well, I can’t imagine being fifty-six days and giving you that feeling of a Space Station environment. And working so closely with Life Science, that was, I guess, another unique experience where you became very closely involved with all of the experiences as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since we had all the medical experiments on board that [were] going to be flying, and the medical aspect of it was a primary objective, we did work very closely with Life Sciences and did all of the bad things that we could think of to do to your body to make sure you were still healthy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of input did you give them as far as from the astronaut perspective about what would work, what’s not going to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the urine collection system on board was very vital to Skylab, because they needed to sample the urine and freeze it, and bring it back and those kind of things. It was sized too small and one burst in the chamber, which was not fun. But as a result of that, the system became larger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also had input on communication systems and timelines and those types of things that are long-duration elements."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 44.97403028509222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since we had all the medical experiments on board that [were] going to be flying, and the medical aspect of it was a primary objective, we did work very closely with Life Sciences and did all of the bad things that we could think of to do to your body to make sure you were still healthy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of input did you give them as far as from the astronaut perspective about what would work, what’s not going to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the urine collection system on board was very vital to Skylab, because they needed to sample the urine and freeze it, and bring it back and those kind of things. It was sized too small and one burst in the chamber, which was not fun. But as a result of that, the system became larger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also had input on communication systems and timelines and those types of things that are long-duration elements."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily, it was, I guess, more like the psychological thing [to stay busy]. On Skylab they had a lot more [to do]. They were doing Earth observations. They were doing solar observations and those kinds of things, and we didn’t have them. So we went through trying to add things just to keep us occupied, and I think that was carried over, that you want people to be busy, but you also want them to have time to relax. We did some of that; probably should have done it better, because we ended up overworking a couple of the Skylab [crews] somehow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were these some of the aspects and elements that you thought you’d be doing as part of the Manned Orbiting Laboratory when you were part of the Air Force? [Crippen laughs.] Or can you share with us what you were supposed to do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 47.74892253899135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the urine collection system on board was very vital to Skylab, because they needed to sample the urine and freeze it, and bring it back and those kind of things. It was sized too small and one burst in the chamber, which was not fun. But as a result of that, the system became larger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also had input on communication systems and timelines and those types of things that are long-duration elements."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily, it was, I guess, more like the psychological thing [to stay busy]. On Skylab they had a lot more [to do]. They were doing Earth observations. They were doing solar observations and those kinds of things, and we didn’t have them. So we went through trying to add things just to keep us occupied, and I think that was carried over, that you want people to be busy, but you also want them to have time to relax. We did some of that; probably should have done it better, because we ended up overworking a couple of the Skylab [crews] somehow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were these some of the aspects and elements that you thought you’d be doing as part of the Manned Orbiting Laboratory when you were part of the Air Force? [Crippen laughs.] Or can you share with us what you were supposed to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, if I told you what we were doing on MOL, I’d have to shoot you. It’s still classified. But essentially, it was a laboratory that was going to go up for thirty days and do military experiments. So we had all the problems of living in orbit for long durations and working up there with two-man crews, because we were using the Gemini vehicle as our vehicle up and down. But many of the things, just with the living aspects of being in orbit for a long period of times were directly associated with Skylab, and that was one of the reasons I think most of us were assigned to work on Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand, too, that you had a different qualification for being pulled in as part of the astronaut corps. All of you were very qualified, but the astronaut corps couldn’t take everybody, so you were split in half."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 38.345662934445926, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. I don’t guess they could be Sim Sups if they weren’t tough. What they were primarily trying to do is to make sure that the procedures we had in place would work and that we knew how to use them. That was for both us in the cockpit and for the Mission Control folks, because we all had to work together. They would run you through the wringer, which is what we wanted them to do. If there was something that could fail, we wanted to make sure we could deal with it.\\n\\n It was kind of funny that my middle daughter is one of those simulator instructors today. [Laughs] And I hear she’s pretty tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She might need to use you as a student. I understand that maybe one of the rules that you can’t drink coffee during training simulations is your doing. [Crippen laughs.] Want to explain to us how that rule came about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Early on we were getting ready for one of our first big integrated sims [simulations] with Mission Control, and John and I used to—we would climb up in the cockpit with our cups of coffee and sit down in our seats and proceed to work. [Then] one day with this simulation going on, we climbed in and put our coffee down, and we set them on some checklists, books that we had sitting there on the console.\\n\\n Somehow during the process of getting ready—this was before the sim started—my cup of coffee ended up spilling over, all over the center console between the pilot and the commander, which was full of electrical apparatus. Sure enough, lights started to light up everywhere in the cockpit and on the simulator’s console. So we had to fess up that, hey, it was probably not going to work that day, and we had to come down.\\n\\n I’m curious as to whether people carry coffee into the cockpit anymore. I doubt it. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think so. One of the other tools that you used to train for the mission was the STA [Shuttle Training Aircraft]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about the Shuttle Training Aircraft and how that helped you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.79926594369902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew getting into Kennedy Space Center, their runway, the first time was also going to be a challenge. My friend John Young believed that we ought to be landing out there on the lakebed, where you’ve got lots of opportunity to correct for problems because you’ve got so many places that you can land. So I didn’t think that landing at KSC was going to be that easy.\\n\\n John was the weather checker in our Shuttle Training Airplane at Kennedy, and he saw some weather, which it can develop very rapidly, which he and I both know. So he properly waved us off on that first time, and we elected to wait another day and try it. And sure enough, that didn’t work out, either, and we ended up coming into Edwards.\\n\\n But truthfully, that extra day we got on orbit was a free day. There wasn’t any real work to be done, so all of us had an opportunity to sit back and enjoy, and maybe play a little bit while we were on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you had some organized events. Want to talk to us about the first round of Space Olympics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs] It was hard to keep this crew under control sometimes. But you can end up with a loop going from the flight deck down through one hatch into the middeck, back up through another hatch into the flight deck, and we did have what we called a Space Flight Olympics, of seeing who could get around the fastest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand awards were given. What award did you take home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were awards. I think I took the “Most Dangerous.” I bumped my side against something, a ladder or something I shouldn’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a good thing you all had a good time. Well, how different was the landing for you this time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.999184381887797, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs] It was hard to keep this crew under control sometimes. But you can end up with a loop going from the flight deck down through one hatch into the middeck, back up through another hatch into the flight deck, and we did have what we called a Space Flight Olympics, of seeing who could get around the fastest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand awards were given. What award did you take home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were awards. I think I took the “Most Dangerous.” I bumped my side against something, a ladder or something I shouldn’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a good thing you all had a good time. Well, how different was the landing for you this time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had hold of the stick this time. [Laughs] We, again, landed on a lakebed out at Edwards, I believe on 18. It was pretty much like I’d practiced in the Shuttle Training Airplane. I felt like I had done it before, so it’s like John taught me, that practice, practice, practice makes perfect, and that’s the way it was. So we landed out there. Didn’t have a big crowd this time, because people had been planning on us going the other way, but it was good, and we enjoyed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel after this mission, compared to your first one? This one was longer. It was six days, compared to just two. Physically, emotionally, how did you take it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.398423217848432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A great group. I got to help pick that one, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, talk to us about the fact that you were called the “Ace Satellite Repair Company” and how that came about, and then, of course, about doing the satellite repair."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the mission was to go repair the satellite, and the “Ace” thing had come along earlier, actually prior to the Shuttle flying. We lost one of our pilots out at Flight Ops, not one of the astronauts. Good friend. Not too long after that his wife needed to move, so we formed the Ace Moving Company, and our motto was “We move single women anywhere and husbands out.” [Laughs] It was mostly a social thing, but we started that and then sort of built on it. Prior to our flight—I believe it was STS-5—they also used the Ace Moving Company sign, because they were deploying satellites on that [mission]. So it was sort of an extension of those earlier days to call ourselves the Ace Satellite Repair, because that was our job to go up and repair the satellite."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to talk more about that, but you mentioned about helping to pick this crew. What did you look for in a crew member?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, people that were compatible, that could work together well, and people that had the talents that I thought were necessary to go do this particular task, which was going to be a challenging one, especially the EVA part of it. “Ox,” or Jim van Hoften, and George, or “Pinky,” Nelson were both great guys and hardworking folks, and they needed to be to do this job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were told that you were going to have this command, when George Abbey explained it to you, were all these components already there? How did your command come about? Was the command connected with these operations, or did you get this command of the next Shuttle mission and then this information was attached to it later?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.30775687459429, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, what we’d used previously and what we’d set up for STS-1 and the subsequent missions was two maneuvers of the OMS engines to establish our orbit. That meant that we’d cut off the main engines so that we were somewhat short of the apogee or the high point of the orbit that we wanted. Then we did—shortly after the engines [cut off] and we shut down the APUs—we did a burn of the orbital maneuvering engines to get the apogee up at the right altitude. Then we flew around to the apogee and fired the engines again to get the perigee up.\\n\\n People looking at flight design came up with, “Hey, we can do that by just using the main engines to get the apogee at the right point so that you don’t need that first burn.” It’s a much easier task from a crew standpoint, because you’re pretty busy there right after main engine cutoff, and this took away some work, so it was a neat thing to try. We were going up pretty high on that one, too, so it worked out good from my perspective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was it your recommendation to continue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, after that I said, “Hey, this is a nice way to fly,” and I believe it’s still being used today, to the best of my knowledge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had trained for an EVA and never used it. Did you get to train for an MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit] and didn’t get to use that, either?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs] No. No, we talked about an MMU also on that first flight to repair tiles. We looked at that. I had worked on the predecessor to the MMU back in the Skylab days, which they used to fly around inside the Skylab vehicle, so I got a chance to do a lot of simulations with it, but no, I didn’t have any chance to use it. So one of the bad [things] about being commander, you don’t get to go outside and do a space walk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you get to look out the window a lot."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.67528541621588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, after that I said, “Hey, this is a nice way to fly,” and I believe it’s still being used today, to the best of my knowledge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had trained for an EVA and never used it. Did you get to train for an MMU [Manned Maneuvering Unit] and didn’t get to use that, either?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs] No. No, we talked about an MMU also on that first flight to repair tiles. We looked at that. I had worked on the predecessor to the MMU back in the Skylab days, which they used to fly around inside the Skylab vehicle, so I got a chance to do a lot of simulations with it, but no, I didn’t have any chance to use it. So one of the bad [things] about being commander, you don’t get to go outside and do a space walk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you get to look out the window a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You get to look out the window a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you brought another one home to Edwards, another Shuttle you landed there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.30587268468431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs] No. No, we talked about an MMU also on that first flight to repair tiles. We looked at that. I had worked on the predecessor to the MMU back in the Skylab days, which they used to fly around inside the Skylab vehicle, so I got a chance to do a lot of simulations with it, but no, I didn’t have any chance to use it. So one of the bad [things] about being commander, you don’t get to go outside and do a space walk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you get to look out the window a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You get to look out the window a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you brought another one home to Edwards, another Shuttle you landed there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got waved off again. [Laughs] Seemed like I was having a hard time getting back into the Kennedy Space Center. But again we came out and landed out at Edwards, and that worked great. Another weather problem, which is quite common at KSC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were preparing for 41-C, you were also assigned as commander of [STS] 41-G. How did you handle the training for back-to-back missions, and how did the situation impact the crew and you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 33.13888537805303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t on board. Actually, that ice that formed was due to the flash evaporator, and it was due to a problem that I made happen, because the flash evaporator, when you turned it on, it’s supposed to kick off and start flashing water to cool the vehicle down. In the simulator it quite often wouldn’t work, and you’d have to cycle it. And I ended up cycling it several times without consulting with the ground. I followed the procedure, but the procedure didn’t say what happened if it didn’t work the first or second time you did it.\\n\\n But the result of all those cyclings put the water coming out of where the flash evaporator, and put an ice cone out there that we ended up having to deal with, to get rid of. In the end everything worked out okay, and it wasn’t that hot in the cabin. It was kind of warm, but we were down to T-shirts and shorts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s good you trained in Houston. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We’re used to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you got to bring this Shuttle home to Kennedy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Finally got into KSC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the difference in landing there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 30.827583742100497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we obviously knew that there was no reason to continue with the training that we were doing, and so our intent was to head back to Houston. They had flown us to Los Alamos in a small plane, and so they took us back to Albuquerque [New Mexico], where we had our T-38s, and we flew back to Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You became part of a Mishap Review Board. How soon did that happen after the accident that you were called to work with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was almost immediately. I think it was the day we got back that George called me in and said that they were putting together a NASA Mishap Report, and that J. R. Thompson was going to lead it up. J. R. had been the guy that headed the development of the Shuttle Main Engines. He no longer worked for NASA at that time, but they brought him back in to lead it, and they asked me to be his Deputy for that. So shortly, maybe within a day, I got in a T-38 and headed to Kennedy Space Center, and started to work the cause of the accident and the recovery of the vehicle and the crew remains."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that organization of that effort come to be? Did you have outside people helping you, or were you one of the instrumental people that started putting what you needed to accomplish, what you needed—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of both. I’m not sure who came down with—hey, we obviously had to put together an investigation team, and somehow George got me involved with it, which he was good at, at getting what he wanted. So we actually took several astronauts and brought them down there with us to work in various capacities. Bob Overmyer was the guy we brought down to primarily work the recovery of the vehicle parts and crew remains, but we had probably half a dozen astronauts that were there. We brought in the Navy salvage group, who were the likely ones to go in and pick up debris off the ocean. So some of it was being directed; some of it was J. R. and I sitting down and saying what we needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did this period of action last in your life?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00119:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.993891000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Found a familiarity there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew the Centers, knew most of the folks in management. I had gone through the period of time where legally—when you leave NASA in the kind of position I was in as the Director of KSC, you can’t go in and interface with NASA directly for one year, and even longer than that for some contracts that you might have let. But I was past that point, so I felt Dan Goldin was still the Administrator of NASA, and I learned that when Dan was worried about something, I ought to be worried about it, too. So I spent a lot of time talking to him, and the Marshall people and all the Centers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned it here and there, but we really haven’t had an opportunity yet to talk about Columbia. In February 2003, we lost that Orbiter and the crew. In fact, both the Shuttles that you flew are gone now. Tell us about where you were with Columbia. And were you involved in anyway with the Agency of helping to deal with that tragedy and bring us back to flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can remember [it] was one morning, and I was in the kitchen with my wife. Got a call from my daughter Susan, who works here at JSC for United Space Alliance, and she said, “Dad, there’s a problem.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and then the day happened from that."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00001:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 8.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I will miss most the contributions we give to our country. I signed up to do this work foLmy nation. I am still going to do volunteer work. I am going to be active in NARFE, National Active and Retired Employees Association. I have.been asked to run as the President of the Northern Virginia Chapter 1665 ofNARFE which I am doing. It looks like I will be elected Chapter President. I will be active in NARFE over the next several years. Some ofthe things I will miss as a Federal employee are the work itself, the importance ofthe work, and the people who work with you. I have known a great group ofpeople over the past 30 years including some co-workers, some support staff, and some supervisors. I will miss some ofthe people whom I have treasured."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What will you miss least?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess what I will miss least is sometimes how long it takes to get things done in a bureaucracy. I am sort ofa Type A, impatient person, and sometimes I would like something to move quicker. However, because the ways things go in the government, it takes a while for all the checks and balances to work out. That is probably what I won't miss - some ofthe pokiness, delays that come along with the bureaucracy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you would like to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I would like to thank you (Charles Brett, husband ofBarbara Brett) for interviewing me on behalf ofthe National Archives Assembly. I would like to ask you a few questions since you worked here at the National Archives for 13.5 years (March 1998 to November 2001) in Records Management (NWML). Would you want to say what your favorite Federal job was during your 37 year Federal career?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think teaching Federal employees Records Management and conducting briefings on Records Management at Federal agencies in order to share information and to contribute to people's work product. So, I would say the teaching aspect ofmy Job at NARA and the briefing program on Records Management for Federal agencies and their responses."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00001:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess what I will miss least is sometimes how long it takes to get things done in a bureaucracy. I am sort ofa Type A, impatient person, and sometimes I would like something to move quicker. However, because the ways things go in the government, it takes a while for all the checks and balances to work out. That is probably what I won't miss - some ofthe pokiness, delays that come along with the bureaucracy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you would like to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I would like to thank you (Charles Brett, husband ofBarbara Brett) for interviewing me on behalf ofthe National Archives Assembly. I would like to ask you a few questions since you worked here at the National Archives for 13.5 years (March 1998 to November 2001) in Records Management (NWML). Would you want to say what your favorite Federal job was during your 37 year Federal career?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think teaching Federal employees Records Management and conducting briefings on Records Management at Federal agencies in order to share information and to contribute to people's work product. So, I would say the teaching aspect ofmy Job at NARA and the briefing program on Records Management for Federal agencies and their responses."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You worked at several Federal agencies as did I. You started at HUD, then went to the Dept. ofCommerce, where you were the ITA Records Officer, from Commerce Dept. to NARA where you worked in NWML, Records Mancigement. Now, you are a Branch Chief in Records and Information Management at PMS (Financial Management Service) at the Dept. ofTreasury in Hyattsville, MD which you joined in November 2001. You are still in Records Management after all these years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I am still in Records Management."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00001:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I would like to thank you (Charles Brett, husband ofBarbara Brett) for interviewing me on behalf ofthe National Archives Assembly. I would like to ask you a few questions since you worked here at the National Archives for 13.5 years (March 1998 to November 2001) in Records Management (NWML). Would you want to say what your favorite Federal job was during your 37 year Federal career?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think teaching Federal employees Records Management and conducting briefings on Records Management at Federal agencies in order to share information and to contribute to people's work product. So, I would say the teaching aspect ofmy Job at NARA and the briefing program on Records Management for Federal agencies and their responses."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You worked at several Federal agencies as did I. You started at HUD, then went to the Dept. ofCommerce, where you were the ITA Records Officer, from Commerce Dept. to NARA where you worked in NWML, Records Mancigement. Now, you are a Branch Chief in Records and Information Management at PMS (Financial Management Service) at the Dept. ofTreasury in Hyattsville, MD which you joined in November 2001. You are still in Records Management after all these years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I am still in Records Management."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What will you miss when you retire on February 29, 2008 after 37 years ofFederal service?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I will miss the interaction ofworking with people in offices to schedule their Federal records. Particularly, now, we have 50 major automated systems at PMS in Treasury. We only have about 30%- 35% ofthose systems scheduled for disposition with NARA. So, the legacy I am going to leave is finishing that project. That will be a major focus for PMS. Thank you very much for allowing me to interview you, Barbara."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00001:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You worked at several Federal agencies as did I. You started at HUD, then went to the Dept. ofCommerce, where you were the ITA Records Officer, from Commerce Dept. to NARA where you worked in NWML, Records Mancigement. Now, you are a Branch Chief in Records and Information Management at PMS (Financial Management Service) at the Dept. ofTreasury in Hyattsville, MD which you joined in November 2001. You are still in Records Management after all these years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I am still in Records Management."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What will you miss when you retire on February 29, 2008 after 37 years ofFederal service?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I will miss the interaction ofworking with people in offices to schedule their Federal records. Particularly, now, we have 50 major automated systems at PMS in Treasury. We only have about 30%- 35% ofthose systems scheduled for disposition with NARA. So, the legacy I am going to leave is finishing that project. That will be a major focus for PMS. Thank you very much for allowing me to interview you, Barbara."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You are welcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It has been a very great honor for me to interview you on behalf ofNARA's Assembly. I think you have done a great honor to our country by your Federal service."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00001:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What will you miss when you retire on February 29, 2008 after 37 years ofFederal service?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I will miss the interaction ofworking with people in offices to schedule their Federal records. Particularly, now, we have 50 major automated systems at PMS in Treasury. We only have about 30%- 35% ofthose systems scheduled for disposition with NARA. So, the legacy I am going to leave is finishing that project. That will be a major focus for PMS. Thank you very much for allowing me to interview you, Barbara."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You are welcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It has been a very great honor for me to interview you on behalf ofNARA's Assembly. I think you have done a great honor to our country by your Federal service."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. What I look forward to is February 29, 2008 when you and I do retire. As they say: \"Grow old with me. The best is yet to be.\"."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I am with you, honey."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.846994622116014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that unusual? I think it is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it is, but I didn't know that at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how many African languages are like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, so you really jumped ahead. So you, a friend said you will apply for the Peace Corps and you applied and you got in and then you had no, you had no training in this country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.05221624679557, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it is, but I didn't know that at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how many African languages are like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, so you really jumped ahead. So you, a friend said you will apply for the Peace Corps and you applied and you got in and then you had no, you had no training in this country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, we went to, again, we went to Oberlin, and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Oberlin was part of the training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 30.24995369930805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The part of the training. Then we went to, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quebec."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quebec."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, um, and that was really where half of our training was, and the second half was in in Bouaké in the Ivory Coast. And I use the term Ivory Coast just to make it easier. Okay. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did, what did your parents think about all of this? Were they okay?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.2777263325645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quebec."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, um, and that was really where half of our training was, and the second half was in in Bouaké in the Ivory Coast. And I use the term Ivory Coast just to make it easier. Okay. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did, what did your parents think about all of this? Were they okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they cried, I know my mother cried at least when I got on the plane in southern Indiana, where I grew up in this little town. And the nearest airport was 30 miles away. And I get on this little plane and flew off and they said, I don't think we're ever going to see him again. They had not been outside the country except maybe stepped a foot in Mexico or Canada. My dad was a pharmacist. My mother helped run the store, raised three kids, you know, basically cooked three pies every morning for, for the, uh, for the lunch counter and, uh, and did all the books and hiring and everything for the store. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was a big deal, going."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.419695925071668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, um, and that was really where half of our training was, and the second half was in in Bouaké in the Ivory Coast. And I use the term Ivory Coast just to make it easier. Okay. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did, what did your parents think about all of this? Were they okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they cried, I know my mother cried at least when I got on the plane in southern Indiana, where I grew up in this little town. And the nearest airport was 30 miles away. And I get on this little plane and flew off and they said, I don't think we're ever going to see him again. They had not been outside the country except maybe stepped a foot in Mexico or Canada. My dad was a pharmacist. My mother helped run the store, raised three kids, you know, basically cooked three pies every morning for, for the, uh, for the lunch counter and, uh, and did all the books and hiring and everything for the store. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was a big deal, going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a big deal. Oh, going to, having gone to Georgetown was the first step in moving far away from Indiana."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Should never have gone east, right? That's what did it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 34.91077325007963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they cried, I know my mother cried at least when I got on the plane in southern Indiana, where I grew up in this little town. And the nearest airport was 30 miles away. And I get on this little plane and flew off and they said, I don't think we're ever going to see him again. They had not been outside the country except maybe stepped a foot in Mexico or Canada. My dad was a pharmacist. My mother helped run the store, raised three kids, you know, basically cooked three pies every morning for, for the, uh, for the lunch counter and, uh, and did all the books and hiring and everything for the store. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was a big deal, going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a big deal. Oh, going to, having gone to Georgetown was the first step in moving far away from Indiana."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Should never have gone east, right? That's what did it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess so. All right. So you got to, you got to in-country. And then where were you assigned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.603721297528097, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is a new school. So they were all first year students, first year of English, and the second year they did first, I did first and second years. Um. And it was an intriguing situation. The, uh, in those days there were very few Ivorians who had the education to teach secondary school. So most of the teachers were French, many of them were old ex-colons, what we in other times would call crocodiles. Um. And many of them were, you know, had never, even though these countries were independent, had not lost their, their feelings about who was in charge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my principal was a guy who was a very smart-ass guy. He left his wife behind several posts back. He'd been in Africa most of his life. He, I'm sure, took well advantage of the female African staff around the school. And he also accused me of being a CIA agent right off the bat, just for, just for fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just to put me down. So every time I'd go get my mail from his office, he would say, here's your mail from your bosses in Washington. And anyway, I tried real hard to be straight, straight arrow, and teach my classes. And the other teachers were mostly either older French people who were working in Africa or what's called French militaire. And French militaire were people doing their military service in lieu of being in the army. And they could teach in Africa for two years and fulfill their military service, which was a great idea. I wish we had that in the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, ours was alternate military service as well, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 21.781912552808997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my principal was a guy who was a very smart-ass guy. He left his wife behind several posts back. He'd been in Africa most of his life. He, I'm sure, took well advantage of the female African staff around the school. And he also accused me of being a CIA agent right off the bat, just for, just for fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just to put me down. So every time I'd go get my mail from his office, he would say, here's your mail from your bosses in Washington. And anyway, I tried real hard to be straight, straight arrow, and teach my classes. And the other teachers were mostly either older French people who were working in Africa or what's called French militaire. And French militaire were people doing their military service in lieu of being in the army. And they could teach in Africa for two years and fulfill their military service, which was a great idea. I wish we had that in the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, ours was alternate military service as well, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So, um. There were a couple of these militaire on the compound. Eventually there were other people who I got to know. There was only one Ivorian on the compound. And there were, two of the, two of the people I got to know best were two Marxists who came to teach at the school. They were very explicitly French Marxists, and they made it very well known. And he was Italian. I guess she was French. And later on, I'll tell you why they were more important to me. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's interesting that the school was so heavily French and not Cote d'Ivoirian. And so your Peace Corps experience was French colonialists."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.37380735172671, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I find I have a report that I wrote at the end of the summer, I guess when I got back to school, and talked to all these students who were coming back. And, uh, something like 23 students had worked all summer. [recorder is moved] Um, how are we doing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Maybe five of them, the classes didn't work for various reasons. I wrote a six page report which I, in French, which I sent to the. I did the six page report in English, which I sent to Peace Corps, and maybe a four page report in French, which I sent to the Ministry of Education in the Cote d'Ivoire. And said, you know, hopefully this is something that you might want to do as a matter of course in other schools. Um. And there were advantages and disadvantages. I think the education, the literacy programs, went better than health education for a variety of reasons, mostly related to the training and the equipment that the volunteers had. And the fact that the volunteers couldn't follow up if they did find a problem, a health problem. But in literacy, they could try to work things out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the real problem is at the end of the summer, who takes over the training, the literacy course?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that's right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.082008168585233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Maybe five of them, the classes didn't work for various reasons. I wrote a six page report which I, in French, which I sent to the. I did the six page report in English, which I sent to Peace Corps, and maybe a four page report in French, which I sent to the Ministry of Education in the Cote d'Ivoire. And said, you know, hopefully this is something that you might want to do as a matter of course in other schools. Um. And there were advantages and disadvantages. I think the education, the literacy programs, went better than health education for a variety of reasons, mostly related to the training and the equipment that the volunteers had. And the fact that the volunteers couldn't follow up if they did find a problem, a health problem. But in literacy, they could try to work things out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the real problem is at the end of the summer, who takes over the training, the literacy course?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, I think it went well. And if I had been there for a second summer, I would have done the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it was good for the students themselves?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.980009076205814, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the real problem is at the end of the summer, who takes over the training, the literacy course?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, I think it went well. And if I had been there for a second summer, I would have done the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it was good for the students themselves?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And they, I mean, hopefully that's the big, that's the big positive is that they come back with the idea that they can do something for their villages as they go through school and afterwards they don't leave those villages behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get any feedback that they, in fact, felt that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.088898973562014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, I think it went well. And if I had been there for a second summer, I would have done the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it was good for the students themselves?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And they, I mean, hopefully that's the big, that's the big positive is that they come back with the idea that they can do something for their villages as they go through school and afterwards they don't leave those villages behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get any feedback that they, in fact, felt that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I do. I have, they all wrote reports, which I still have copies of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, lovely. It was a great idea that you, you came up with that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.43210997062446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And they, I mean, hopefully that's the big, that's the big positive is that they come back with the idea that they can do something for their villages as they go through school and afterwards they don't leave those villages behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get any feedback that they, in fact, felt that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I do. I have, they all wrote reports, which I still have copies of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, lovely. It was a great idea that you, you came up with that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it seemed to fit and they liked it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we leave and you went to a city, you said, afterwards, a bigger place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 26.035677745138287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I do. I have, they all wrote reports, which I still have copies of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, lovely. It was a great idea that you, you came up with that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it seemed to fit and they liked it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we leave and you went to a city, you said, afterwards, a bigger place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I stayed there, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you stayed there? You just had a different job, is that in kind of the second year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.978981817747993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, no, I first I went to, I took my travel. I took my leave and flew out to Nairobi and had adventures there. I just went by myself since nobody else wanted to go there. And I hitchhiked around East Africa for about, I suppose, three weeks and went from sleeping on a park bench in Nairobi when after I flew in to then going to the Peace Corps office there and checking in. And then I went down to Mombasa and I went down to the Tanzania, what was then Tanganyika, border."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was going to go to an island there. And they said, well, that's off limits to Americans. You can't go there. So I had to turn around and hitchhike back. Went up to the northern part of Kenya, not far from Somalia actually. And then I got back to Nairobi, then went west hitchhiking into western Kenya, then down to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania. I had many adventures. One of them was I lost my, I left my camera in one of these little cars. Typically, you either had a big car filled with two Europeans or you had a small Volkswagen filled with six Asians. And we were leaving there and it was one of those cars with Asians that I left my camera in. And when I got back to Nairobi, on the way back, I went to the Peace Corps office and they said, somebody brought your camera back for you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent. So you did all of that by yourself as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.865535353053325, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was going to go to an island there. And they said, well, that's off limits to Americans. You can't go there. So I had to turn around and hitchhike back. Went up to the northern part of Kenya, not far from Somalia actually. And then I got back to Nairobi, then went west hitchhiking into western Kenya, then down to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania. I had many adventures. One of them was I lost my, I left my camera in one of these little cars. Typically, you either had a big car filled with two Europeans or you had a small Volkswagen filled with six Asians. And we were leaving there and it was one of those cars with Asians that I left my camera in. And when I got back to Nairobi, on the way back, I went to the Peace Corps office and they said, somebody brought your camera back for you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent. So you did all of that by yourself as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So, um, driving, hitchhiking west into Kenya, the sort of the big areas where the larger farms or plantations might be, with a white family. The man would come up behind some three Kenyan military trucks with soldiers in the back, sort of like a big pickup truck. And he started passing them. And each one he would pass and then swerve and then swerve out right in front of it, kicking up the gravel. And so I asked him why he was doing this. He says, I want to break their windscreens. And it's just an indication of the enmity of these former Kenyan, the white Kenyans who had basically been thrown out of power and were still really angry about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And contrast that to the French in Cote d'Ivoire."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 20.961705947837025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent. So you did all of that by yourself as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So, um, driving, hitchhiking west into Kenya, the sort of the big areas where the larger farms or plantations might be, with a white family. The man would come up behind some three Kenyan military trucks with soldiers in the back, sort of like a big pickup truck. And he started passing them. And each one he would pass and then swerve and then swerve out right in front of it, kicking up the gravel. And so I asked him why he was doing this. He says, I want to break their windscreens. And it's just an indication of the enmity of these former Kenyan, the white Kenyans who had basically been thrown out of power and were still really angry about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And contrast that to the French in Cote d'Ivoire."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were pretty much the same. They didn't have land, though. They were more civil service oriented. Not nearly as much land. The land was mostly in East Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did the French stay in those positions, do you know?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.705809812144476, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were pretty much the same. They didn't have land, though. They were more civil service oriented. Not nearly as much land. The land was mostly in East Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did the French stay in those positions, do you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They stayed until, um. The original president was sort of Houphouet-Boigny, who was very well known. He stayed for, I think, ten or 12 years before he died. He was, the French tried to set up sort of mini French African leaders who were sort of, who would follow along with the policies that the French had instituted. And they did this in, successfully in about three quarters of the French francophone countries of West Africa. And Houphouet-Boigny was one of these. His successor, Bedie, was similar. And then there was, Bedie was sort of kicked out of power and there became a military coup. And when that happened, the French became the enemy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were mostly fled and their properties were taken over. That's gone back and forth since then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk a little bit about the, the town you were in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.994826928573428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were mostly fled and their properties were taken over. That's gone back and forth since then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk a little bit about the, the town you were in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The town was about 20,000. It had a poor market. There wasn't much to buy, but there was a typical African market every day. They made pottery in the town, it's what it was known for, but it was also pretty crummy pottery."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There wasn't, some tourists would stop there. They'd get off the train and they'd buy pottery. But nobody really trained these people in how to make better pottery. It was a, it was probably 50 percent Muslim and 50 percent either Christian or animist. Um. So it was a real mixed town. It wasn't one ethnic group or the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And people got along?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.105363253970474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The town was about 20,000. It had a poor market. There wasn't much to buy, but there was a typical African market every day. They made pottery in the town, it's what it was known for, but it was also pretty crummy pottery."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There wasn't, some tourists would stop there. They'd get off the train and they'd buy pottery. But nobody really trained these people in how to make better pottery. It was a, it was probably 50 percent Muslim and 50 percent either Christian or animist. Um. So it was a real mixed town. It wasn't one ethnic group or the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And people got along?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no enmity that, I mean, there was no stuff going on that I was aware of. In those days, the federal government, the government of the country, was pretty much in control. And everybody still, just like when the French were there, they kind of obeyed the orders. Um. I didn't really, I don't think there was much religious. People were able to worship as they wanted. I think all of the, uh, the Ivorian leaders who came up. There was a suprefet in the town, and he was from the south. Almost all the people who were put into these positions of political leadership were from the Baoule tribe, which was the president's tribe. Um. Some of my colleagues were further north in the areas that were totally Muslim. And, and there may have been a few Muslims who were suprefets, but probably not very many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have electricity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 32.69380218796334, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The guy who was, who was tutoring me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whom you were paying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who I was paying. So, uh, I guess we continued the classes. I guess, I can't remember. But anyway, there was kind of a love hate relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was he so anti-American?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of French were in those days. This was their territory. What were Americans doing there anyway? I couldn't speak very good French. You know, teaching. There must be some nefarious reason we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. So, um, the second year you moved into town, you said?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 35.21533576440372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who I was paying. So, uh, I guess we continued the classes. I guess, I can't remember. But anyway, there was kind of a love hate relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was he so anti-American?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of French were in those days. This was their territory. What were Americans doing there anyway? I couldn't speak very good French. You know, teaching. There must be some nefarious reason we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. So, um, the second year you moved into town, you said?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I wanted to move into town so I could be more with the local population. And I did that. There was a new volunteer coming in who was going to be an agricultural volunteer guy, and so he was going to move in to me. And I found a house and found a, what they called a boy, to help clean and do a little cooking. And then I would drive up on my Mobylette to the school. And that went fine for the first semester and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I'm sorry, how far was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 23.404626228290017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was from basically just before Christmas until, uh, I'd say April or May. Meanwhile, my students didn't know what happened to me. They came back from, and even my teachers and then my principal, they came back from holiday and I wasn't there. Peace Corps got in touch with them and this French Marxist woman started, took over my classes. And so she had the students write me letters in their very halting English, and it was very moving to get them. Um. And they would say things like, uh, in fact, one of them, uh, one of the students wrote a portrait of me, which they sent to the Peace Corps newsletter called The Tambour.\n\nAnd there's a whole page and a half here about describing, this is by Kwasi Quadrole Jean-Baptiste, student of [inaudible], College Moderne of Katiola. Transmitted by Madame Kremiscoli, the Marxist teacher. And it starts: Every morning coming, his blond hair waving in the wind. Our teacher comes on his bike to the school. And it goes to this whole page and a half of a pretty, pretty correct description about how I would discipline people and sometimes forget to discipline them and how, in the end, he says, it's with great impatience that we wait your return to our school because we love you like little, like little brothers, and we know you love us like a big brother."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's nice. Very nice. So it's great that you still have that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they also said, well, why did you go into sacred forest without the permission of the witch doctor? Which I had done. So I had a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what is the sacred forest?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's where the, where the spirits are, the traditional spirits. So there was one little."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's why you got paralyzed?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.67180692032224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they also said, well, why did you go into sacred forest without the permission of the witch doctor? Which I had done. So I had a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what is the sacred forest?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's where the, where the spirits are, the traditional spirits. So there was one little."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's why you got paralyzed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. From their point of view. So, um. There was one little restaurant in the town, and I didn't like to cook for myself. So I would go there and he might have chicken or field rat or whatever he might have. And so at one point he said, do you want to go to the sacred forest? And I said sure. So he took me out there and there was a grove of woods on a little hill. I can't remember exactly, but, um. He said, well, you know, the French wanted to build a road through here. And we said, no, we don't want you to do that. We want you to go around the grove of this forest. It's our sacred area. And the French said, no, we're going to come through here. So they, the way he described it, they came with their big bulldozers and their big machines, and the little people came out of the ground and they broke their machines. And so they couldn't go through the forest and tear it down and they didn't. They had to eventually go around.\n\nSo I learned the stories, a few stories about the sacred forests, and didn't think anything more of it. But apparently, either after I was paralyzed or even before, he, this guy, his name was Petit John that ran the restaurant, he let the word out that I'd been there. So that became the rationale for while I was paralyzed. And I can tell you 15 years later, when I was working for AID, a guy who was living in Abidjan said he had heard a story about a Peace Corps volunteer who had gone to the sacred forest and was paralyzed. I know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know that guy."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 25.19089657813582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's where the, where the spirits are, the traditional spirits. So there was one little."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's why you got paralyzed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. From their point of view. So, um. There was one little restaurant in the town, and I didn't like to cook for myself. So I would go there and he might have chicken or field rat or whatever he might have. And so at one point he said, do you want to go to the sacred forest? And I said sure. So he took me out there and there was a grove of woods on a little hill. I can't remember exactly, but, um. He said, well, you know, the French wanted to build a road through here. And we said, no, we don't want you to do that. We want you to go around the grove of this forest. It's our sacred area. And the French said, no, we're going to come through here. So they, the way he described it, they came with their big bulldozers and their big machines, and the little people came out of the ground and they broke their machines. And so they couldn't go through the forest and tear it down and they didn't. They had to eventually go around.\n\nSo I learned the stories, a few stories about the sacred forests, and didn't think anything more of it. But apparently, either after I was paralyzed or even before, he, this guy, his name was Petit John that ran the restaurant, he let the word out that I'd been there. So that became the rationale for while I was paralyzed. And I can tell you 15 years later, when I was working for AID, a guy who was living in Abidjan said he had heard a story about a Peace Corps volunteer who had gone to the sacred forest and was paralyzed. I know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know that guy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, um, so my Peace Corps career was ended and, um. I, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you to regain the ability to walk?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.223329108809656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, um, so my Peace Corps career was ended and, um. I, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you to regain the ability to walk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I got back on my feet. I went through the green Peace Corps green sheet and found a job starting, I think, in April in Philadelphia, doing a 100 percent diagnostic survey of a low-income housing area that was under federal, HUD would do a federal upgrade program, which they were doing in those days. So I won't go into great detail, but that was a very, that was [inaudible] Philly and Rizzo was the police chief and it was hot. It was 1968, the year of the Democratic convention in Chicago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were working for the police or who were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, working for this firm Trans Century Corporation. But half of our staff were Howard University law students who were pretty hot about what was going on. And the other half were either former Peace Corps volunteers or ex-cons. So we had to find our own housing in this rundown area. And I ended up living with a former Mennonite volunteer from Vietnam and a black ex-con named Wimpy. And we had some exciting times and I learned a lot. And Wimpy wasn't totally rehabilitated, it turned out. So I learned a lot about how things go on. And then I went to the University of Chicago for grad school and did another year of physical therapy, and I was using canes or a cane. And then after that year in Chicago, I was able to throw away my cane and walk. And I was able to, I still never was able to run again or jump, but I could build up my strength enough so that I could carry babies on my back and hike down the Grand Canyon and do that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what is the cause, is it a virus or what is it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.855961862727971, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, working for this firm Trans Century Corporation. But half of our staff were Howard University law students who were pretty hot about what was going on. And the other half were either former Peace Corps volunteers or ex-cons. So we had to find our own housing in this rundown area. And I ended up living with a former Mennonite volunteer from Vietnam and a black ex-con named Wimpy. And we had some exciting times and I learned a lot. And Wimpy wasn't totally rehabilitated, it turned out. So I learned a lot about how things go on. And then I went to the University of Chicago for grad school and did another year of physical therapy, and I was using canes or a cane. And then after that year in Chicago, I was able to throw away my cane and walk. And I was able to, I still never was able to run again or jump, but I could build up my strength enough so that I could carry babies on my back and hike down the Grand Canyon and do that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what is the cause, is it a virus or what is it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, it's sort of what's going on now. You hear about Guillain-Barre with the Zika virus. It's a, it's an autoimmune disease. It's a reaction by the white, the white blood cells are overreacting to some, uh, some attack on the system, on the nervous system. And they over, they overcompensate and they start destroying the nervous system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But is it mosquito-borne?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it's not. It's just."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.760446744108608, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it's not. It's just."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. With Zika, it may be. But in those cases, most people, they would say in those days, it's your body is overreacting. It could be a cold, it could be a sinus issue. Nobody really knows. And when I was at Bethesda Naval, I found military people from all over the world who had this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They picked it up in the Philippines. They picked it up in the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's not that you were."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.289385271231787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. With Zika, it may be. But in those cases, most people, they would say in those days, it's your body is overreacting. It could be a cold, it could be a sinus issue. Nobody really knows. And when I was at Bethesda Naval, I found military people from all over the world who had this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They picked it up in the Philippines. They picked it up in the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's not that you were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have a friend whose son picked it up in Massachusetts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cote d'Ivoire, and no, it just, you happened to be there when that happened."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.87578428547134, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have a friend whose son picked it up in Massachusetts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cote d'Ivoire, and no, it just, you happened to be there when that happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you think back on your Peace Corps experience, what are, I guess you've talked about your fondest memories. What do you, what do you think your, your contribution was or what did you learn? Let me ask it both ways."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.750871428301487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you think back on your Peace Corps experience, what are, I guess you've talked about your fondest memories. What do you, what do you think your, your contribution was or what did you learn? Let me ask it both ways."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as Peace Corps volunteers almost always said, we probably picked up more than we gave. You know, we, we, it was, for us it was very much a maturation process. And I met a whole bunch of friends that we're still, some of which I'm still in touch with, Peace Corps friends. Um. Ivorian friends have kind of disappeared because I left so early. And but, uh, you know, I think I was able to provide a good model. I don't know if people followed up on it with other TEFL teachers in the future. Um. I continue to get contacts with some of my students for a while, but that faded away eventually. But it was a, you basically get grassroots experience in development that you don't get from any other program. And two years is, even though I was only there for a little over a year and a half, it makes a difference. It's a lot better than the year program, which some people prefer to take."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And some people actually extended for a third year."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.038112874446277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as Peace Corps volunteers almost always said, we probably picked up more than we gave. You know, we, we, it was, for us it was very much a maturation process. And I met a whole bunch of friends that we're still, some of which I'm still in touch with, Peace Corps friends. Um. Ivorian friends have kind of disappeared because I left so early. And but, uh, you know, I think I was able to provide a good model. I don't know if people followed up on it with other TEFL teachers in the future. Um. I continue to get contacts with some of my students for a while, but that faded away eventually. But it was a, you basically get grassroots experience in development that you don't get from any other program. And two years is, even though I was only there for a little over a year and a half, it makes a difference. It's a lot better than the year program, which some people prefer to take."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And some people actually extended for a third year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Peace Corps is basically a program where you meet somebody who's in Peace Corps or was in Peace Corps, and there's an automatic bond. It's a, it's a cohort that is very wide and. And I coach new hires at AID. I've done this now for over ten years, and many of them, half of them are former Peace Corps volunteers. And that's, I know where they're coming from. They know a little bit where I'm coming from. And when you then go to work for AID, which I did for a career, you're no longer at the grassroots level, but at least you have an idea of how things work at the grassroots level that you can use when you're dealing at higher policy levels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are three goals to Peace Corps that are always talked about. To provide technical assistance where requested. You talked about that. To promote better understanding of the U.S."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.486792082718086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Peace Corps is basically a program where you meet somebody who's in Peace Corps or was in Peace Corps, and there's an automatic bond. It's a, it's a cohort that is very wide and. And I coach new hires at AID. I've done this now for over ten years, and many of them, half of them are former Peace Corps volunteers. And that's, I know where they're coming from. They know a little bit where I'm coming from. And when you then go to work for AID, which I did for a career, you're no longer at the grassroots level, but at least you have an idea of how things work at the grassroots level that you can use when you're dealing at higher policy levels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are three goals to Peace Corps that are always talked about. To provide technical assistance where requested. You talked about that. To promote better understanding of the U.S."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that. We brought movies up. I remember, I see from my notes here, we had several films we would bring up and in show to the whole town and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the woman saw her first white person, maybe."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 27.20754675857565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Peace Corps is basically a program where you meet somebody who's in Peace Corps or was in Peace Corps, and there's an automatic bond. It's a, it's a cohort that is very wide and. And I coach new hires at AID. I've done this now for over ten years, and many of them, half of them are former Peace Corps volunteers. And that's, I know where they're coming from. They know a little bit where I'm coming from. And when you then go to work for AID, which I did for a career, you're no longer at the grassroots level, but at least you have an idea of how things work at the grassroots level that you can use when you're dealing at higher policy levels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are three goals to Peace Corps that are always talked about. To provide technical assistance where requested. You talked about that. To promote better understanding of the U.S."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that. We brought movies up. I remember, I see from my notes here, we had several films we would bring up and in show to the whole town and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the woman saw her first white person, maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the third is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.786163065084054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that. We brought movies up. I remember, I see from my notes here, we had several films we would bring up and in show to the whole town and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the woman saw her first white person, maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the third is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We've done a lot of that, my wife and I. When we were in AID, we were in both in Botswana and Liberia, both places we made, we got in touch with the Peace Corps director and we said, well, we're both here. At the point we had kids, one in Botswana and two in Liberia. And we said, well, I know people sometimes are thinking about early termination, but if they come to town, they can stay with us. We have set aside a guest room, we call it the ET room, the early termination room. And so they can relax. They can talk to either one of us about our Peace Corps experiences and about other people. And they don't have to be under any pressure. We're not reporting to the Peace Corps director. They can play with our kids, they can relax, do whatever they want. And so that worked out. And we've had, I think we've had probably in both countries, probably eight or ten people who did that for three or four weeks. And I think our success rate was about 50 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then they returned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.317958961204504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the third is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We've done a lot of that, my wife and I. When we were in AID, we were in both in Botswana and Liberia, both places we made, we got in touch with the Peace Corps director and we said, well, we're both here. At the point we had kids, one in Botswana and two in Liberia. And we said, well, I know people sometimes are thinking about early termination, but if they come to town, they can stay with us. We have set aside a guest room, we call it the ET room, the early termination room. And so they can relax. They can talk to either one of us about our Peace Corps experiences and about other people. And they don't have to be under any pressure. We're not reporting to the Peace Corps director. They can play with our kids, they can relax, do whatever they want. And so that worked out. And we've had, I think we've had probably in both countries, probably eight or ten people who did that for three or four weeks. And I think our success rate was about 50 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then they returned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 50 percent went back to their towns and villages and 50 percent terminated. But we met a lot of Peace Corps volunteers. We just went out to Hawaii where we saw one of our health volunteers we got to know in Liberia, who's now at the University of Hawaii School of Public Health, and spent two nights with her. So we have a French, a whole group of people we've gotten to know and we've continued those contacts with, when we're overseas with AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's interesting, you talk about Peace Corps people now. Can you reflect? Because you've really seen them over the last, I guess it's 40 years now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 28.131065512449446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We've done a lot of that, my wife and I. When we were in AID, we were in both in Botswana and Liberia, both places we made, we got in touch with the Peace Corps director and we said, well, we're both here. At the point we had kids, one in Botswana and two in Liberia. And we said, well, I know people sometimes are thinking about early termination, but if they come to town, they can stay with us. We have set aside a guest room, we call it the ET room, the early termination room. And so they can relax. They can talk to either one of us about our Peace Corps experiences and about other people. And they don't have to be under any pressure. We're not reporting to the Peace Corps director. They can play with our kids, they can relax, do whatever they want. And so that worked out. And we've had, I think we've had probably in both countries, probably eight or ten people who did that for three or four weeks. And I think our success rate was about 50 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then they returned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 50 percent went back to their towns and villages and 50 percent terminated. But we met a lot of Peace Corps volunteers. We just went out to Hawaii where we saw one of our health volunteers we got to know in Liberia, who's now at the University of Hawaii School of Public Health, and spent two nights with her. So we have a French, a whole group of people we've gotten to know and we've continued those contacts with, when we're overseas with AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's interesting, you talk about Peace Corps people now. Can you reflect? Because you've really seen them over the last, I guess it's 40 years now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fifty years, getting close to 50 years. Do you think the experience that volunteer, their experience now is very different from ours in the sixties?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.224298675581, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had our 30th reunion. We got the Peace Corps director to come give the keynote address."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For our, for our returned returnees and people who came for reunion. So we try to. And she walked in and she heard what was going on. She said, well, you've got your own little domestic Peace Corps, don't you? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. A single church. So the whole idea of continuing this volunteer idea, we work, Nancy and I work pretty hard on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's excellent. Is there anything else you want to? Any other thought you want to say? This is your interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I think it's, uh, it's great that you're doing this. Um. I'm sure that, uh, I'm trying to think of anything else. I mean, I remember going through some of these letters that my mother always saved. Uh. It was pretty tough. I mean, we really didn't know much what was going on. We didn't know what was going to happen when we get out of country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't have a cell phone."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.69366519509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For our, for our returned returnees and people who came for reunion. So we try to. And she walked in and she heard what was going on. She said, well, you've got your own little domestic Peace Corps, don't you? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. A single church. So the whole idea of continuing this volunteer idea, we work, Nancy and I work pretty hard on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's excellent. Is there anything else you want to? Any other thought you want to say? This is your interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I think it's, uh, it's great that you're doing this. Um. I'm sure that, uh, I'm trying to think of anything else. I mean, I remember going through some of these letters that my mother always saved. Uh. It was pretty tough. I mean, we really didn't know much what was going on. We didn't know what was going to happen when we get out of country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't have a cell phone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By ourselves. Didn't have much contact. I ran into a sheep on my Mobylette and wrecked my Mobylette and skinned myself up, and I'm not sure how I took care of it. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me just say that you can also, or I can do it for you, upload materials. Because the Kennedy Library also does that. And one of the people that I interviewed had some materials he had written and submitted that as well. So when you go through it, you can still do that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.2151835501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I think it's, uh, it's great that you're doing this. Um. I'm sure that, uh, I'm trying to think of anything else. I mean, I remember going through some of these letters that my mother always saved. Uh. It was pretty tough. I mean, we really didn't know much what was going on. We didn't know what was going to happen when we get out of country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't have a cell phone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By ourselves. Didn't have much contact. I ran into a sheep on my Mobylette and wrecked my Mobylette and skinned myself up, and I'm not sure how I took care of it. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me just say that you can also, or I can do it for you, upload materials. Because the Kennedy Library also does that. And one of the people that I interviewed had some materials he had written and submitted that as well. So when you go through it, you can still do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. I'll look at this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At a later point."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.794648389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By ourselves. Didn't have much contact. I ran into a sheep on my Mobylette and wrecked my Mobylette and skinned myself up, and I'm not sure how I took care of it. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me just say that you can also, or I can do it for you, upload materials. Because the Kennedy Library also does that. And one of the people that I interviewed had some materials he had written and submitted that as well. So when you go through it, you can still do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. I'll look at this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At a later point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you so much, John."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.43849821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. I'll look at this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At a later point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you so much, John."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, thank you for doing this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a great interview."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.02949, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's really fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. By the way, it turned out that it's, uh, the Guillain- Barre. I have trouble getting around now, but it's not because of Guillain-Barre. It turns out when 20 years later, when I was about ready to. I had been at AID, I was AID director. I started feeling weak again. It was about the time they were, I was getting retired, and I came back and eventually went to Hopkins and they said, well, when did you have polio?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I vaguely remembered something about when I was a toddler. I had to, my parents took me to Indianapolis to a hospital, and I stayed there for a couple of weeks and my mother just said I just cried and cried and cried and cried, leaving the little kid there. So anyway, I said, what did they say when they dismissed me? And they said, well, they weren't sure it was a real case and don't let him run around too much. As a toddler, that didn't mean anything. So I thought I was a normal kid, played basketball, ran track, all of that. But when I went to Hopkins, he said, well, the weakness you're having in your nervous system now, this is probably now about 20 years ago again, is because part of the nervous, the nervous system that is being inflamed and keeping the muscles from activating is the part that's affected by polio and not by Guillain-Barré, which is another part of the nervous system. So that you are, you have post- polio syndrome rather than any sort of secondary effects from Guillain-Barré."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Well, you did well throughout your life, though."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.3661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. By the way, it turned out that it's, uh, the Guillain- Barre. I have trouble getting around now, but it's not because of Guillain-Barre. It turns out when 20 years later, when I was about ready to. I had been at AID, I was AID director. I started feeling weak again. It was about the time they were, I was getting retired, and I came back and eventually went to Hopkins and they said, well, when did you have polio?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I vaguely remembered something about when I was a toddler. I had to, my parents took me to Indianapolis to a hospital, and I stayed there for a couple of weeks and my mother just said I just cried and cried and cried and cried, leaving the little kid there. So anyway, I said, what did they say when they dismissed me? And they said, well, they weren't sure it was a real case and don't let him run around too much. As a toddler, that didn't mean anything. So I thought I was a normal kid, played basketball, ran track, all of that. But when I went to Hopkins, he said, well, the weakness you're having in your nervous system now, this is probably now about 20 years ago again, is because part of the nervous, the nervous system that is being inflamed and keeping the muscles from activating is the part that's affected by polio and not by Guillain-Barré, which is another part of the nervous system. So that you are, you have post- polio syndrome rather than any sort of secondary effects from Guillain-Barré."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Well, you did well throughout your life, though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I'll mention one other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't affect you for most of your life."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I'll mention one other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't affect you for most of your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a Peace Corps reunion, maybe it was last year? A big one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had a speaker from California who's a congressman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Um, I forgot his name. Yes."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a Peace Corps reunion, maybe it was last year? A big one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had a speaker from California who's a congressman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Um, I forgot his name. Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he also spoke at the last Guillain-Barré group organization meeting because he had a daughter who went to Peace Corps in, somewhere in Central America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he talked about that when I heard him."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had a speaker from California who's a congressman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Um, I forgot his name. Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he also spoke at the last Guillain-Barré group organization meeting because he had a daughter who went to Peace Corps in, somewhere in Central America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he talked about that when I heard him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And contracted Guillain-Barré."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00013:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And contracted Guillain-Barré."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then a second daughter who went to Peru and contracted Guillain-Barré. Both of his daughters ended up having the same problem I did. I never knew there was anybody else in Peace Corps history who had that. And he has had two of them in his own family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we'll end. Thank you so much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.6301917571354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me start by asking you, why did you join the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, to be perfectly honest, I joined the Peace Corps to strengthen my Spanish skills and to gain international experience. I had recently graduated from grad school in urban and regional planning, and during my grad school experience, I had an internship in China, which interested me in international work. And one of my professors in the urban and regional planning program at Portland State University was also a returned Peace Corps volunteer, and she talked to me about her experience because she went also after she got her master's in planning and, um. And it just opened that door for me. And so that's what I applied to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where did you grow up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.25576861903933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, to be perfectly honest, I joined the Peace Corps to strengthen my Spanish skills and to gain international experience. I had recently graduated from grad school in urban and regional planning, and during my grad school experience, I had an internship in China, which interested me in international work. And one of my professors in the urban and regional planning program at Portland State University was also a returned Peace Corps volunteer, and she talked to me about her experience because she went also after she got her master's in planning and, um. And it just opened that door for me. And so that's what I applied to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in Springfield, Illinois."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much orientation to the wider world, or was it all Illinois? Did you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.395298465599256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in Springfield, Illinois."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much orientation to the wider world, or was it all Illinois? Did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, no, yeah, we had a pretty wide orientation. My grandfather, my mom was from Springfield, and so she and my dad moved back there when she got pregnant with my sister, and her family was there. So we were really close with her family. My grandfather was from Florida, and so we went to Florida frequently when I was a kid. And my grandmother was from Wisconsin, so we went to Wisconsin. I grew up showing horses. Um, my grandfather was a doctor, too, so my mom had a college education. She actually went to George W, um, George Washington, and, uh. So, yeah, I had a, I think in fourth grade, we had a student teacher who was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And so I think that was the first time I heard about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned you went to grad school. Where did you go to grad school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.550331628443617, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in Springfield, Illinois."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much orientation to the wider world, or was it all Illinois? Did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, no, yeah, we had a pretty wide orientation. My grandfather, my mom was from Springfield, and so she and my dad moved back there when she got pregnant with my sister, and her family was there. So we were really close with her family. My grandfather was from Florida, and so we went to Florida frequently when I was a kid. And my grandmother was from Wisconsin, so we went to Wisconsin. I grew up showing horses. Um, my grandfather was a doctor, too, so my mom had a college education. She actually went to George W, um, George Washington, and, uh. So, yeah, I had a, I think in fourth grade, we had a student teacher who was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And so I think that was the first time I heard about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned you went to grad school. Where did you go to grad school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Portland State University in Oregon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did you end up in Portland?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.611479587159574, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, no, yeah, we had a pretty wide orientation. My grandfather, my mom was from Springfield, and so she and my dad moved back there when she got pregnant with my sister, and her family was there. So we were really close with her family. My grandfather was from Florida, and so we went to Florida frequently when I was a kid. And my grandmother was from Wisconsin, so we went to Wisconsin. I grew up showing horses. Um, my grandfather was a doctor, too, so my mom had a college education. She actually went to George W, um, George Washington, and, uh. So, yeah, I had a, I think in fourth grade, we had a student teacher who was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And so I think that was the first time I heard about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned you went to grad school. Where did you go to grad school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Portland State University in Oregon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did you end up in Portland?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to, I finished my undergrad degree at Oregon State University in Corvallis and then stayed there basically after college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. So you applied while, were you still in grad school when you applied for Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.754913070567374, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to, I finished my undergrad degree at Oregon State University in Corvallis and then stayed there basically after college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. So you applied while, were you still in grad school when you applied for Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was out of school. Actually what happened was my, I had a job, and the job, I was fired from the job, and I had a relationship that was a, I was in that ended the same week. And the first thing I thought to myself was that I could apply to the Peace Corps. And so I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was in 2010."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long did that take to get into the Peace Corps then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.838792300630416, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was out of school. Actually what happened was my, I had a job, and the job, I was fired from the job, and I had a relationship that was a, I was in that ended the same week. And the first thing I thought to myself was that I could apply to the Peace Corps. And so I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was in 2010."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long did that take to get into the Peace Corps then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years. Talk a little bit about the process. What?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.146657161272119, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years. Talk a little bit about the process. What?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, they still were mostly operating off of a paper application at the time, or it was a combination of paper and electronic, even in 2010. And so that just took a long time. I remember, I think I actually turned some forms into PDF fillable forms because they weren't fillable. Uh, and I thought that was weird. Um, and then, uh, because I, my relationship ended, you know, life changes. I was going to a therapist, and I included that in my application materials, the health review form, and it was flagged. And because of one word that my therapist wrote down that I was dealing with ongoing family issues, the Peace Corps medical officers decided that I needed to be on a six month hold. Uh, even though the, my therapist wrote a letter saying that I was a, I was totally stable. I wasn't showing any signs of mental illness, that it was, you know, talk therapy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and she thought I'd make a great volunteer, all of these things, and, yeah, they still put me on a six month hold."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's a shorter hold than some other people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.496285734746799, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, they still were mostly operating off of a paper application at the time, or it was a combination of paper and electronic, even in 2010. And so that just took a long time. I remember, I think I actually turned some forms into PDF fillable forms because they weren't fillable. Uh, and I thought that was weird. Um, and then, uh, because I, my relationship ended, you know, life changes. I was going to a therapist, and I included that in my application materials, the health review form, and it was flagged. And because of one word that my therapist wrote down that I was dealing with ongoing family issues, the Peace Corps medical officers decided that I needed to be on a six month hold. Uh, even though the, my therapist wrote a letter saying that I was a, I was totally stable. I wasn't showing any signs of mental illness, that it was, you know, talk therapy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and she thought I'd make a great volunteer, all of these things, and, yeah, they still put me on a six month hold."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's a shorter hold than some other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do while you were on hold? Did you have a job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.995873038607554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and she thought I'd make a great volunteer, all of these things, and, yeah, they still put me on a six month hold."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's a shorter hold than some other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do while you were on hold? Did you have a job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was temping mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then they said, all right, you can become a volunteer. Was Mexico the, did you select Mexico?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.550970042897282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do while you were on hold? Did you have a job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was temping mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then they said, all right, you can become a volunteer. Was Mexico the, did you select Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I selected Latin America, the region, because I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wanted to learn Spanish."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.834411158774758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was temping mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then they said, all right, you can become a volunteer. Was Mexico the, did you select Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I selected Latin America, the region, because I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wanted to learn Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I had a background in Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school and college. Um, and then I started, you know, because I had an initial interview and she said to strengthen the Spanish skills and I had to take a CLEP test to prove that I still had the skills because my last class had been so long before. I passed the test. And so I just started practicing Spanish just to strengthen those skills. And they offered me somewhere in Latin America, they didn't say where, and sub-Saharan Africa. And really tried to push me to the sub-Saharan Africa. But I'm queer and I was not interested in trying to be super closeted.\n\nI was 30 years old, and, um, and I'd been practicing Spanish and I passed the test, so I said, no, thank you. You can send me to somewhere in Latin America or I'm not going. I had also been an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, and so. I was committed to gaining the experience, but especially once I got there. But I was also, after almost two years by that point, and having a master's degree. I was like, I'm a very highly qualified candidate. If you don't want me, I'll find a job somewhere else. Thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they then offered you Mexico?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.260456843083064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I selected Latin America, the region, because I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wanted to learn Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I had a background in Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school and college. Um, and then I started, you know, because I had an initial interview and she said to strengthen the Spanish skills and I had to take a CLEP test to prove that I still had the skills because my last class had been so long before. I passed the test. And so I just started practicing Spanish just to strengthen those skills. And they offered me somewhere in Latin America, they didn't say where, and sub-Saharan Africa. And really tried to push me to the sub-Saharan Africa. But I'm queer and I was not interested in trying to be super closeted.\n\nI was 30 years old, and, um, and I'd been practicing Spanish and I passed the test, so I said, no, thank you. You can send me to somewhere in Latin America or I'm not going. I had also been an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, and so. I was committed to gaining the experience, but especially once I got there. But I was also, after almost two years by that point, and having a master's degree. I was like, I'm a very highly qualified candidate. If you don't want me, I'll find a job somewhere else. Thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they then offered you Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I guess by 2010, all of the training was in country, was, I should ask that. Was all of the country, all the training in country or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 15.844952047870072, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I had a background in Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school and college. Um, and then I started, you know, because I had an initial interview and she said to strengthen the Spanish skills and I had to take a CLEP test to prove that I still had the skills because my last class had been so long before. I passed the test. And so I just started practicing Spanish just to strengthen those skills. And they offered me somewhere in Latin America, they didn't say where, and sub-Saharan Africa. And really tried to push me to the sub-Saharan Africa. But I'm queer and I was not interested in trying to be super closeted.\n\nI was 30 years old, and, um, and I'd been practicing Spanish and I passed the test, so I said, no, thank you. You can send me to somewhere in Latin America or I'm not going. I had also been an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, and so. I was committed to gaining the experience, but especially once I got there. But I was also, after almost two years by that point, and having a master's degree. I was like, I'm a very highly qualified candidate. If you don't want me, I'll find a job somewhere else. Thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they then offered you Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I guess by 2010, all of the training was in country, was, I should ask that. Was all of the country, all the training in country or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So talk a little bit about, um, the training you went through."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.827724497633413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I guess by 2010, all of the training was in country, was, I should ask that. Was all of the country, all the training in country or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So talk a little bit about, um, the training you went through."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it was, the training was in Queretaro, Mexico, at the um, office, Peace Corps. For the most part, it was classroom based. Um, so we were mostly working with relatively formalized eco clubs or youth groups, um, or trying to build what are called ecotécnicas, like wood burning stoves that direct the smoke out of the house or whatever. Um, I think Peace Corps Mexico is still feeling, figuring things out at that point. So we went up to the mountains for two weeks and spent a whole week building a cistern, learning how to build a cistern. I don't think any of us built a cistern during our service. It would have been much more useful to learn classroom management skills, um, which we never learned. Uh. But, you know, there's a lot of, 120 hours or 135 hours of Spanish classes. Um, learned a lot about the history and culture of Mexico. I felt very well prepared to live and work in Mexican society, Mexican culture after those three months. Um.\n\nThe like figuring out a ways of team building amongst the volunteers? Not so much. I don't, I'm not in contact with any of my, really, returned volunteers from my group. A couple, but really sporadically. Um. And part of that has to do with, um, the fact that I'm queer and had a very homophobic and humiliating experience during the sex ed portion when I asked for dental dams and the doctor just said no, you can make one out of Saran wrap. And then another volunteer echoed that. And then after that class was over, another volunteer came up to me and said that she could tell how upset I was and that she was an ally, which to me was like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this all happened in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.481103563283144, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in training. And so I was like, well, if you were an ally, you would have said something and stood up for me, but thanks anyway. So that didn't really engender me to my, um, cohort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big of a group was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Twenty of you. And what, what was the purpose of the eco program, of the environmental education program basically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically to increase the environmental understanding and awareness of the Mexican population."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was geared to youth or adults or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.979003959203492, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Twenty of you. And what, what was the purpose of the eco program, of the environmental education program basically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically to increase the environmental understanding and awareness of the Mexican population."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was geared to youth or adults or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It depended. Once we got to site, it really depended on each different site. Some people were working on like perma, perma farming, permaculture. Other people worked on like signage in a national forest, national park. A lot of different range of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had Mexico requested this program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.08778217689277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically to increase the environmental understanding and awareness of the Mexican population."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was geared to youth or adults or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It depended. Once we got to site, it really depended on each different site. Some people were working on like perma, perma farming, permaculture. Other people worked on like signage in a national forest, national park. A lot of different range of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had Mexico requested this program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, we, um, the Peace Corps doesn't have a bilateral agreement with Mexico still. And so we only go to places where the Mexican government wants us to go, assigns volunteers. There's a collaborative process where they decide the sites together with Mexican agencies. So basically it's the Mexican EPA, SEMARNAT, and, uh, and like the Mexican Forest Service, all of those kinds of things. And then the National Science Foundation for the most, for the, um, technology transfer program that is now really teaching English for STEM."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. So you went through the training and it was, you said, a three months training program."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.319757974325299, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It depended. Once we got to site, it really depended on each different site. Some people were working on like perma, perma farming, permaculture. Other people worked on like signage in a national forest, national park. A lot of different range of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had Mexico requested this program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, we, um, the Peace Corps doesn't have a bilateral agreement with Mexico still. And so we only go to places where the Mexican government wants us to go, assigns volunteers. There's a collaborative process where they decide the sites together with Mexican agencies. So basically it's the Mexican EPA, SEMARNAT, and, uh, and like the Mexican Forest Service, all of those kinds of things. And then the National Science Foundation for the most, for the, um, technology transfer program that is now really teaching English for STEM."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. So you went through the training and it was, you said, a three months training program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three months of language and the environmental. Did you move to the community in which you were going to be working as part of this training, or was it all in this training center?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.577508860361442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, we, um, the Peace Corps doesn't have a bilateral agreement with Mexico still. And so we only go to places where the Mexican government wants us to go, assigns volunteers. There's a collaborative process where they decide the sites together with Mexican agencies. So basically it's the Mexican EPA, SEMARNAT, and, uh, and like the Mexican Forest Service, all of those kinds of things. And then the National Science Foundation for the most, for the, um, technology transfer program that is now really teaching English for STEM."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. So you went through the training and it was, you said, a three months training program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three months of language and the environmental. Did you move to the community in which you were going to be working as part of this training, or was it all in this training center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was mostly in the training center. I think we went to site for a week just to meet people. And if there was a volunteer currently there to interact with them, get sort of a transfer of knowledge. Meetings and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So training past and where were you then assigned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.752787622623824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three months of language and the environmental. Did you move to the community in which you were going to be working as part of this training, or was it all in this training center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was mostly in the training center. I think we went to site for a week just to meet people. And if there was a volunteer currently there to interact with them, get sort of a transfer of knowledge. Meetings and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So training past and where were you then assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was assigned to the Bosque de la Primavera. Out, uh, right outside of Guadalajara. And to, well, to the management agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What management agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.94754180291536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was mostly in the training center. I think we went to site for a week just to meet people. And if there was a volunteer currently there to interact with them, get sort of a transfer of knowledge. Meetings and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So training past and where were you then assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was assigned to the Bosque de la Primavera. Out, uh, right outside of Guadalajara. And to, well, to the management agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What management agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the Bosque de la Primavera. It's a natural protected area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. And what is, what, it's like a national park? Is that it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 13.275046447683733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was assigned to the Bosque de la Primavera. Out, uh, right outside of Guadalajara. And to, well, to the management agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What management agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the Bosque de la Primavera. It's a natural protected area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. And what is, what, it's like a national park? Is that it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, more like a natural reserve. And the idea, they try to keep people out. And the idea is because it's delicate, has really delicate soils, a lot of endemic species that are found nowhere else that are probably going to be extinct soon. Guadalajara is growing around it. It's going to be a park. It's going to be like, yeah, soon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your role or what was the intended role of you in that park?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.083384941870815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the Bosque de la Primavera. It's a natural protected area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. And what is, what, it's like a national park? Is that it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, more like a natural reserve. And the idea, they try to keep people out. And the idea is because it's delicate, has really delicate soils, a lot of endemic species that are found nowhere else that are probably going to be extinct soon. Guadalajara is growing around it. It's going to be a park. It's going to be like, yeah, soon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your role or what was the intended role of you in that park?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked with the local community that was at the main public entrance to the Bosque, the town of La Primavera, and I lived with a family there. And I mostly, for the first year, conducted a weekly eco club. And then I tried to work on various projects that the management agency was working on, because most Peace Corps volunteers develop, like live and work and don't leave their site a lot, where they live. And my situation was much different, where I had to leave where I lived every day and go into the, into the city and to the office. So I had like a 9:00 to 5:00 job for the most part. So, and I was trying to integrate into both. But, you know, you have to sleep sometime. And I was exhausted and just, it was a lot. I mean, it's an emotional toll. Um, so I just decided to integrate into the office because I was required to go there by my counterpart, um, every day. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, um, so I missed. So where were you actually living, in Guadalajara?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.744919681321994, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked with the local community that was at the main public entrance to the Bosque, the town of La Primavera, and I lived with a family there. And I mostly, for the first year, conducted a weekly eco club. And then I tried to work on various projects that the management agency was working on, because most Peace Corps volunteers develop, like live and work and don't leave their site a lot, where they live. And my situation was much different, where I had to leave where I lived every day and go into the, into the city and to the office. So I had like a 9:00 to 5:00 job for the most part. So, and I was trying to integrate into both. But, you know, you have to sleep sometime. And I was exhausted and just, it was a lot. I mean, it's an emotional toll. Um, so I just decided to integrate into the office because I was required to go there by my counterpart, um, every day. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, um, so I missed. So where were you actually living, in Guadalajara?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In La Primavera. For the first year I lived in the town of La Primavera with a mom who had, her kid was in the eco club. And so the volunteer before me set that up. But after about a year in I started understanding Spanish more and understanding the town dynamics. I was living in a very contested place with people who had a long standing dispute, and it was really interfering with my ability to do anything in the town. So I moved into the city, into Guadalajara."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the, what was the problem there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, it was an inner familial conflict over the house. And I was in the middle of it, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you moved into an apartment by yourself or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.716577423691104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In La Primavera. For the first year I lived in the town of La Primavera with a mom who had, her kid was in the eco club. And so the volunteer before me set that up. But after about a year in I started understanding Spanish more and understanding the town dynamics. I was living in a very contested place with people who had a long standing dispute, and it was really interfering with my ability to do anything in the town. So I moved into the city, into Guadalajara."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the, what was the problem there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, it was an inner familial conflict over the house. And I was in the middle of it, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you moved into an apartment by yourself or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in the middle, in the central of Guadalajara. Yeah, it was a lot better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a lot better?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.685086026323448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, it was an inner familial conflict over the house. And I was in the middle of it, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you moved into an apartment by yourself or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in the middle, in the central of Guadalajara. Yeah, it was a lot better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a lot better?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot better. And, I mean, I had an hour commute to the office, but then I was seen much more as a neutral party in the town. And I continued to go to the town and to do my projects there. I started about, after about a year, I started organizing about six moms of the eco club kids. Those were the ones who showed up after all the public meetings. Um, a project to train them how to run a recycling collection center. So we did a, quite a long time, quite a long training program where we talked about reduce, reuse, recycling. I educated them about all of the traffic or trash gyres, the plastic islands in the oceans and things like that. And then we built a bodega to collect recyclable materials from the school. Kids would bring the materials to school and collect them at school, transfer them to the bodega, and then they would sell them, sell the materials once they had enough, to garner some money and just to fund small projects in the town, not really as an real income."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you set up that whole project."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.95689632879438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot better. And, I mean, I had an hour commute to the office, but then I was seen much more as a neutral party in the town. And I continued to go to the town and to do my projects there. I started about, after about a year, I started organizing about six moms of the eco club kids. Those were the ones who showed up after all the public meetings. Um, a project to train them how to run a recycling collection center. So we did a, quite a long time, quite a long training program where we talked about reduce, reuse, recycling. I educated them about all of the traffic or trash gyres, the plastic islands in the oceans and things like that. And then we built a bodega to collect recyclable materials from the school. Kids would bring the materials to school and collect them at school, transfer them to the bodega, and then they would sell them, sell the materials once they had enough, to garner some money and just to fund small projects in the town, not really as an real income."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you set up that whole project."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it was funded by a Mexican nonprofit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of materials were they?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.285440365327089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it was funded by a Mexican nonprofit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of materials were they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Plastic mostly. Beer cans, but mostly plastic bottles and milk bottles and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Um, did. I know this is a big issue for later on as well. Did your sexuality play any role in your interactions in Mexico, or did people not care or not even pay attention or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.539378183696765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of materials were they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Plastic mostly. Beer cans, but mostly plastic bottles and milk bottles and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Um, did. I know this is a big issue for later on as well. Did your sexuality play any role in your interactions in Mexico, or did people not care or not even pay attention or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, all the, people really didn't care. They really didn't pay attention. The signals are different in every culture. Um, so we think it's someone's really obvious here. They're not going to be obvious in another culture. Um, some of the moms were curious when I, you know, would sort of evade some of their questions. And, and then once I had relationships with them, and they were about my same age so I was honest with them, and they were more curious than anything. And I, you know, of course, I was on Facebook and I decided if I was going to be friends with people on Facebook, they were just going to find out because I wasn't going to edit myself. And, um, but I also just, I didn't talk about it a lot. I dated one person, um, maybe for about six months, but. Yeah, I didn't. We weren't that, it wasn't that great of a relationship. So it's not like it was going anywhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a big, was there a big community in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.821531315218628, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Plastic mostly. Beer cans, but mostly plastic bottles and milk bottles and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Um, did. I know this is a big issue for later on as well. Did your sexuality play any role in your interactions in Mexico, or did people not care or not even pay attention or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, all the, people really didn't care. They really didn't pay attention. The signals are different in every culture. Um, so we think it's someone's really obvious here. They're not going to be obvious in another culture. Um, some of the moms were curious when I, you know, would sort of evade some of their questions. And, and then once I had relationships with them, and they were about my same age so I was honest with them, and they were more curious than anything. And I, you know, of course, I was on Facebook and I decided if I was going to be friends with people on Facebook, they were just going to find out because I wasn't going to edit myself. And, um, but I also just, I didn't talk about it a lot. I dated one person, um, maybe for about six months, but. Yeah, I didn't. We weren't that, it wasn't that great of a relationship. So it's not like it was going anywhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a big, was there a big community in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Guadalajara. Yeah, Guadalajara is considered the San Francisco of Mexico. So yeah, there were a lot of gay people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So people chose."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.829051006442752, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Guadalajara. Yeah, Guadalajara is considered the San Francisco of Mexico. So yeah, there were a lot of gay people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So people chose."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody cared."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. I mean, people would stare at me on the street, but that's no different than here. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was a good thing. Okay. So you did that, you did that same job for two years."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.365612229380835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody cared."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. I mean, people would stare at me on the street, but that's no different than here. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was a good thing. Okay. So you did that, you did that same job for two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three. I extended for a third year to finish that project with the bodega. And then I did an organic gardening project, mostly with the same women, but then a few other people added. We ended up building 11 organic gardens. And there was no communal land, so we couldn't do a community garden. So we did individual gardens. And that was a SPA grant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "SPA? What is SPA?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.961791365978705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. I mean, people would stare at me on the street, but that's no different than here. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was a good thing. Okay. So you did that, you did that same job for two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three. I extended for a third year to finish that project with the bodega. And then I did an organic gardening project, mostly with the same women, but then a few other people added. We ended up building 11 organic gardens. And there was no communal land, so we couldn't do a community garden. So we did individual gardens. And that was a SPA grant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "SPA? What is SPA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it's funded by USAID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does SPA stand for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.624212628865227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three. I extended for a third year to finish that project with the bodega. And then I did an organic gardening project, mostly with the same women, but then a few other people added. We ended up building 11 organic gardens. And there was no communal land, so we couldn't do a community garden. So we did individual gardens. And that was a SPA grant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "SPA? What is SPA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it's funded by USAID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does SPA stand for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Special Projects Assistance, I think. They're pretty small grants, I think less than $10,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, you had, um, you had applied for that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 18.471347365405805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it's funded by USAID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does SPA stand for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Special Projects Assistance, I think. They're pretty small grants, I think less than $10,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, you had, um, you had applied for that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. So you said that what you did in Mexico had a lot to do with what you did later on. I know you, after this job, um, you became the diversity and inclusion person in Mexico. How did that all evolve."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.968163739339785, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Special Projects Assistance, I think. They're pretty small grants, I think less than $10,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, you had, um, you had applied for that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. So you said that what you did in Mexico had a lot to do with what you did later on. I know you, after this job, um, you became the diversity and inclusion person in Mexico. How did that all evolve."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In two, well, I'm not exactly sure what year it was launched, but in 2014, um, Mexico hosted a same sex couple initiative training. It was a week long training for the Mexican staff, well, for post staff. So they did these trainings at several posts around the world to train the staff to be ready to receive a same sex couple once the Defense of Marriage Act was struck down and the Supreme Court passed gay marriage. I don't, however, that happened, because I was in Peace Corps, so I don't remember how that happened exactly. But, um. To create a pathway basically. And so we had that training. And after a couple of those trainings, the staff that was giving that training realized that staff, post staff needed intercultural competence, diversity, and inclusion training writ large. And so they modified that. And that's a training they do now.\n\nBut as part of the training in Mexico, all of the staff participated. And they had a panel of six volunteers who had been active and involved and vocal about things needed to be changing, changed, or were giving trainings on different things. And I had been the chair of the volunteer advisory committee and had done several other things, doing trainings on diversity sort of trainings, trying to improve how the Mexican staff were helping the volunteers come in and team build in order to support each other throughout their two years of service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Broader than sexual orientation."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.478962605404368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I, to start talking about identity and diversity, all of that generally. Um, and so, the six of us participated in the training the whole week. And then the last day we did action planning, the staff did action planning and we did planning. And we decided to create two different committees, a peer support network and a diversity and inclusion network. Peer support to do direct peer support, especially with incoming volunteers in their first three months of service, call and check in on them all the time. And then a diversity inclusion network to help with supporting incoming volunteers in navigating their differences in the Mexican culture, with each other, and also to help educate incoming volunteers more about the diversity of Mexico. And the way different, especially the way we think of our major identity aspects, how that plays out in Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where it's basically different tribes or indigenous people versus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's, actually it's very interesting. There's a pretty significant population that identifies as white. The majority identify as mestizo. Um, there are Afro descendant people, Afro Mexicanos, and they were only included in a census in 2015. There's a lot of racism and colorism issues in Mexico. And then talking about the different religions, different immigrant populations. There's significant populations of Koreans, Japanese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All sorts of different kinds of people, yeah, all throughout Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which you don't hear about very much at all."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.532180672671519, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's, actually it's very interesting. There's a pretty significant population that identifies as white. The majority identify as mestizo. Um, there are Afro descendant people, Afro Mexicanos, and they were only included in a census in 2015. There's a lot of racism and colorism issues in Mexico. And then talking about the different religions, different immigrant populations. There's significant populations of Koreans, Japanese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All sorts of different kinds of people, yeah, all throughout Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which you don't hear about very much at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not at all. Yeah. But it's, I mean, it's a huge country. So yeah, there are, people are, there's all sorts of different kinds of people there. I mean, Frida Kahlo's father was a Lebanese immigrant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn't know that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.42244527490311, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not at all. Yeah. But it's, I mean, it's a huge country. So yeah, there are, people are, there's all sorts of different kinds of people there. I mean, Frida Kahlo's father was a Lebanese immigrant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn't know that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lebanese or Australian. Not Australian, Austrian. Maybe he was Austrian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or Hungarian. Somewhere around there. Yes, Lebanese I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, you and these other volunteers created this network and then you, did you manage that or how did that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.469383638781233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lebanese or Australian. Not Australian, Austrian. Maybe he was Austrian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or Hungarian. Somewhere around there. Yes, Lebanese I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, you and these other volunteers created this network and then you, did you manage that or how did that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we, yeah, the volunteers manage it. Um, there's a staff liaison on each one and we work closely with the staff. It's not just some like rogue thing or off on its own. Get some funding from Peace Corps Mexico, especially the peer support network, to go and visit volunteers if they're struggling, um, or to, for both to go into the office for trainings or to go to regional volunteer meetings that would happen a couple times a year. Yeah. And I think they're still going strong and seem to have done a world of wonder to help the incoming cohorts like become a tight knit group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does this happen in other countries as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 11.632648487534702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or Hungarian. Somewhere around there. Yes, Lebanese I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, you and these other volunteers created this network and then you, did you manage that or how did that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we, yeah, the volunteers manage it. Um, there's a staff liaison on each one and we work closely with the staff. It's not just some like rogue thing or off on its own. Get some funding from Peace Corps Mexico, especially the peer support network, to go and visit volunteers if they're struggling, um, or to, for both to go into the office for trainings or to go to regional volunteer meetings that would happen a couple times a year. Yeah. And I think they're still going strong and seem to have done a world of wonder to help the incoming cohorts like become a tight knit group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does this happen in other countries as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It does in some, but it really depends on the leadership and the staff of each of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's, that's still continuing. Did you get to travel around the country much?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.369609430594112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we, yeah, the volunteers manage it. Um, there's a staff liaison on each one and we work closely with the staff. It's not just some like rogue thing or off on its own. Get some funding from Peace Corps Mexico, especially the peer support network, to go and visit volunteers if they're struggling, um, or to, for both to go into the office for trainings or to go to regional volunteer meetings that would happen a couple times a year. Yeah. And I think they're still going strong and seem to have done a world of wonder to help the incoming cohorts like become a tight knit group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does this happen in other countries as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It does in some, but it really depends on the leadership and the staff of each of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's, that's still continuing. Did you get to travel around the country much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. I traveled a lot. Um, Mexico has a fantastic intra city bus system, like nothing like Greyhound. Very, very, very nice busses. So I went all over the place there. We were restricted from traveling to a lot of places. But Mexico is such a huge country that I went to Chiapas, Oaxaca, the Yucatan Peninsula. Um, I lived pretty close to Puerto Vallarta, so I went there on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you did this on your own or as part of the diversity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.855121589549014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It does in some, but it really depends on the leadership and the staff of each of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's, that's still continuing. Did you get to travel around the country much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. I traveled a lot. Um, Mexico has a fantastic intra city bus system, like nothing like Greyhound. Very, very, very nice busses. So I went all over the place there. We were restricted from traveling to a lot of places. But Mexico is such a huge country that I went to Chiapas, Oaxaca, the Yucatan Peninsula. Um, I lived pretty close to Puerto Vallarta, so I went there on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you did this on your own or as part of the diversity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, on my own. On my own traveling. Yeah. Yeah, because it was my final year, my third year, when we were getting it up and running. We were writing the bylaws and figuring out what we were going to do and all that kind of stuff. And then because of all of my work in that, the Director of Programing and Training created the volunteer leader for diversity inclusion position for me and offered it to me. And then that fourth year I was in the Peace Corps office. I moved to Queretaro. And through that I traveled a lot, but that was mostly to support the staff on their site visits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were a volunteer for three years and one year you were a staff there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.394579543943348, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. I traveled a lot. Um, Mexico has a fantastic intra city bus system, like nothing like Greyhound. Very, very, very nice busses. So I went all over the place there. We were restricted from traveling to a lot of places. But Mexico is such a huge country that I went to Chiapas, Oaxaca, the Yucatan Peninsula. Um, I lived pretty close to Puerto Vallarta, so I went there on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you did this on your own or as part of the diversity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, on my own. On my own traveling. Yeah. Yeah, because it was my final year, my third year, when we were getting it up and running. We were writing the bylaws and figuring out what we were going to do and all that kind of stuff. And then because of all of my work in that, the Director of Programing and Training created the volunteer leader for diversity inclusion position for me and offered it to me. And then that fourth year I was in the Peace Corps office. I moved to Queretaro. And through that I traveled a lot, but that was mostly to support the staff on their site visits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were a volunteer for three years and one year you were a staff there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a volunteer leader, so I was still a volunteer but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were still a fourth year."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.9939772710481645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, on my own. On my own traveling. Yeah. Yeah, because it was my final year, my third year, when we were getting it up and running. We were writing the bylaws and figuring out what we were going to do and all that kind of stuff. And then because of all of my work in that, the Director of Programing and Training created the volunteer leader for diversity inclusion position for me and offered it to me. And then that fourth year I was in the Peace Corps office. I moved to Queretaro. And through that I traveled a lot, but that was mostly to support the staff on their site visits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were a volunteer for three years and one year you were a staff there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a volunteer leader, so I was still a volunteer but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were still a fourth year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was working in the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were being paid or no?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.659974745609071, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a volunteer leader, so I was still a volunteer but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were still a fourth year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was working in the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were being paid or no?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you learn from all of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.399971939565635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was working in the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were being paid or no?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you learn from all of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a lot. Um. Well, I learned that the diversity and inclusion sort of industry or topic area is, is my field, is my calling. And I've sort of come in and out of it my entire life, starting in kindergarten and. And have integrated it into all of the different things that I've done, including urban planning. And, and so I just sort of, just given up like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. So I found my path in life through all of this, um, that's for sure. I learned about myself, that I am very resilient and very persistent. Um. And, and from Mexican culture, I learned that above all else, the important thing is to love your friends and family and to have a good time. And not worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the details?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.222191043961816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you learn from all of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a lot. Um. Well, I learned that the diversity and inclusion sort of industry or topic area is, is my field, is my calling. And I've sort of come in and out of it my entire life, starting in kindergarten and. And have integrated it into all of the different things that I've done, including urban planning. And, and so I just sort of, just given up like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. So I found my path in life through all of this, um, that's for sure. I learned about myself, that I am very resilient and very persistent. Um. And, and from Mexican culture, I learned that above all else, the important thing is to love your friends and family and to have a good time. And not worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the details?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the details, all the little things, all the, especially being on time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, those are big lessons to learn. Um, what, what about the whole, you know, orientation to the three goals of Peace Corps? If you think about, about helping the country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.13576782662424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a lot. Um. Well, I learned that the diversity and inclusion sort of industry or topic area is, is my field, is my calling. And I've sort of come in and out of it my entire life, starting in kindergarten and. And have integrated it into all of the different things that I've done, including urban planning. And, and so I just sort of, just given up like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. So I found my path in life through all of this, um, that's for sure. I learned about myself, that I am very resilient and very persistent. Um. And, and from Mexican culture, I learned that above all else, the important thing is to love your friends and family and to have a good time. And not worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the details?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the details, all the little things, all the, especially being on time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, those are big lessons to learn. Um, what, what about the whole, you know, orientation to the three goals of Peace Corps? If you think about, about helping the country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, I mean, you clearly provided training and set up some things so you could say."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.7294483218439485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think I transferred a lot of knowledge to the women and the children that I worked with, um, and the men I worked with too. And I helped them realize that they had it within themselves to do this project because the whole, especially the recycling project, the whole time we were working on it, the women referred to it as my project. It was my project, my project. And then it wasn't until the last month or two where they're like, oh, you really are leaving. Especially after I extended for the third year, like, oh, you're not leaving, you'll be here forever. Um, yeah. Oh, no, you're, you're really. This really is our project. Oh, okay. So, I mean, it took two years for them to get that, but I also appreciated that they didn't want me to leave, and they liked me so much that they really embraced me as part of the community. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I heard from some of the participants that I changed their minds about U.S. Americans, that they had this idea of gringos. Well, they said gringos specifically, um, and that now they realize not all of us are like that, and they appreciated that. And of course, I appreciated that. And, um, because my mom had, she had gone to school in Mexico a couple summers to learn Spanish. So I had some knowledge of Mexico. I didn't, I really tried not to have preconceived notions, at least about Mexicans. I think I did about my fellow volunteers. Um. That. I just, I mean, everything that I know about Mexico I learned while I was there, so I can't say I, you know, anything was dashed or anything like that, but I just found Mexicans to be the most hospitable, warm, loving people that I have ever encountered. And it's just a shame that we can't get along, really, our countries. I mean, our, I think we can people-to-people but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's a unique time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.307960891165369, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I heard from some of the participants that I changed their minds about U.S. Americans, that they had this idea of gringos. Well, they said gringos specifically, um, and that now they realize not all of us are like that, and they appreciated that. And of course, I appreciated that. And, um, because my mom had, she had gone to school in Mexico a couple summers to learn Spanish. So I had some knowledge of Mexico. I didn't, I really tried not to have preconceived notions, at least about Mexicans. I think I did about my fellow volunteers. Um. That. I just, I mean, everything that I know about Mexico I learned while I was there, so I can't say I, you know, anything was dashed or anything like that, but I just found Mexicans to be the most hospitable, warm, loving people that I have ever encountered. And it's just a shame that we can't get along, really, our countries. I mean, our, I think we can people-to-people but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's a unique time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope unique time. Um, you've mentioned a couple of times you didn't get along with your fellow volunteers as much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think it all comes from that instance during training or were there other issues?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.23106765685041, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope unique time. Um, you've mentioned a couple of times you didn't get along with your fellow volunteers as much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think it all comes from that instance during training or were there other issues?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it does. And, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you weren't, were you stationed close to some of the other ones?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.145630729833789, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think it all comes from that instance during training or were there other issues?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it does. And, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you weren't, were you stationed close to some of the other ones?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were, no, not. I mean, and there were a couple who were two hours away. Um, they're an older couple. They're baby boomers. So I got along with them and some others, I guess, while, while in country, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you haven't kept up with anybody."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.161811922037543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it does. And, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you weren't, were you stationed close to some of the other ones?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were, no, not. I mean, and there were a couple who were two hours away. Um, they're an older couple. They're baby boomers. So I got along with them and some others, I guess, while, while in country, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you haven't kept up with anybody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So I guess that's what makes me think like, oh, the bonds weren't that tight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So then you, you did this, this job for the fourth year, which is a long time to stay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.29090213559727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were, no, not. I mean, and there were a couple who were two hours away. Um, they're an older couple. They're baby boomers. So I got along with them and some others, I guess, while, while in country, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you haven't kept up with anybody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So I guess that's what makes me think like, oh, the bonds weren't that tight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So then you, you did this, this job for the fourth year, which is a long time to stay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that then translate into the job you now have in Washington?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.5454468173303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So I guess that's what makes me think like, oh, the bonds weren't that tight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. So then you, you did this, this job for the fourth year, which is a long time to stay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that then translate into the job you now have in Washington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, I applied for the job in Washington and I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the job existed before you came?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 13.265983725099135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, I applied for the job in Washington and I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the job existed before you came?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There had been two people, it had been filled twice, but so it was still relatively new because once I arrived, um, that hadn't been filled by anyone for more than a year. So I basically created, made it into what it is, and it's evolving even more now. But I supported employee resource group programs and, um, basically worked on making sure the workplace is not just diverse but inclusive, and to identify barriers to that and to propose solutions to eliminating the barriers. Um.\n\nAnd I, and the volunteer leader role was the first time I was, like, formally working in that capacity, and so it set me up for a, not really an entry level but sort of a mid, uh, level position, which is what my position is. Um. Because I, you know, I had ten or so years of professional experience generally, and then the more specialized in that particular realm qualified me for the job. I mean, I had to apply for it and go through all of that whole federal sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what are the issues you're facing in Peace Corps? Is Peace Corps, do you think, different than, as an organization, different than other organizations from a diversity point of view?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.282706485442972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I don't know exactly why, but it's very easy to forget that just because we're all U.S. Americans, or that we all work for the Peace Corps, that we're all different. We all have different backgrounds. We all have different experiences. We all have different experiences as volunteers and. That. And people seem to forget the history of this country and, um, and maybe never learned the history, maybe don't know the facts about civil rights and things like this and that. We had laws where women had no rights, like all of these kinds of things. And it's. Time marches on and progress keeps going. I think it is true that the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice, absolutely, like Dr. King said.\n\nAnd I also think that at the Peace Corps where we get into this mindset, oh, well, I served abroad. I lived in this other place. So I know how it is. These other people, I get diversity and inclusion, but it's different here. And they don't know it. And so I think we can't get out of our own way, in some ways. And to be open and curious again and not say, oh well, that doesn't matter. You just leave all of your ask yourself at the door. And that's the generational difference. I think older generations were raised and socialized to leave that at the door. And I'm 39, so I'm an elder millennial. I was not raised to leave that at the door. Well, maybe I was raised to leave that at the door and I rebelled against that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you're not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I definitely rebelled against that. So. And the ones coming behind me even less so. And, and so I, from where I sit, what I see is the Peace Corps needs to change or it will not be relevant in ten years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, and what do you think the problems are with, just recruiting people of color?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's no problem recruiting. It's in the selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, talk a little bit about that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.869673872714413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I definitely rebelled against that. So. And the ones coming behind me even less so. And, and so I, from where I sit, what I see is the Peace Corps needs to change or it will not be relevant in ten years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, and what do you think the problems are with, just recruiting people of color?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's no problem recruiting. It's in the selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, talk a little bit about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. People apply. People apply and people are qualified. We have diverse groups of qualified folks for jobs and volunteer service. And then the, when it comes down to choosing people for the jobs, they're not getting chosen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is that because of bias?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.52185985857157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's no problem recruiting. It's in the selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, talk a little bit about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. People apply. People apply and people are qualified. We have diverse groups of qualified folks for jobs and volunteer service. And then the, when it comes down to choosing people for the jobs, they're not getting chosen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is that because of bias?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Could be. We don't know. We're just starting to look into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh. Because I had always heard it was the application process that was the problem, or that people, you know, don't have the orientation or the money to be able to afford to take something really low paying for a couple of years."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.705999825397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Could be. We don't know. We're just starting to look into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh. Because I had always heard it was the application process that was the problem, or that people, you know, don't have the orientation or the money to be able to afford to take something really low paying for a couple of years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And that, that, I would say that's probably, especially for volunteer service, that's definitely part of it, the socioeconomics of it. I went into debt applying to the Peace Corps because it was before Obamacare and I didn't have insurance. Um. But we haven't, I mean, we're not a self reflective agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and I don't want to talk too much about it because it's, I'm not a spokesperson for the agency, but, um. We're just starting to list, just starting to look into it, to look from a systemic and institutional way. There have been initiatives and training programs and things like that. But that doesn't work, especially somewhere that has constant turnover. And so we're trying to identify the barriers and then come up with a plan to recommend solutions for those barriers, taking into account the fact that we will turn over every three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And maybe turnover isn't all that it's, was expected to do."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3399998059966665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And that, that, I would say that's probably, especially for volunteer service, that's definitely part of it, the socioeconomics of it. I went into debt applying to the Peace Corps because it was before Obamacare and I didn't have insurance. Um. But we haven't, I mean, we're not a self reflective agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and I don't want to talk too much about it because it's, I'm not a spokesperson for the agency, but, um. We're just starting to list, just starting to look into it, to look from a systemic and institutional way. There have been initiatives and training programs and things like that. But that doesn't work, especially somewhere that has constant turnover. And so we're trying to identify the barriers and then come up with a plan to recommend solutions for those barriers, taking into account the fact that we will turn over every three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And maybe turnover isn't all that it's, was expected to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah, yeah. Because the idea is, oh well, well, the volunteer corps will diversify and then the employees will too. And that is not happening. The volunteer groups have diversified and they're, and it's not translating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To, to staff."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.044444228885185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and I don't want to talk too much about it because it's, I'm not a spokesperson for the agency, but, um. We're just starting to list, just starting to look into it, to look from a systemic and institutional way. There have been initiatives and training programs and things like that. But that doesn't work, especially somewhere that has constant turnover. And so we're trying to identify the barriers and then come up with a plan to recommend solutions for those barriers, taking into account the fact that we will turn over every three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And maybe turnover isn't all that it's, was expected to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah, yeah. Because the idea is, oh well, well, the volunteer corps will diversify and then the employees will too. And that is not happening. The volunteer groups have diversified and they're, and it's not translating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To, to staff."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the volunteers have diversified even."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.604938032094649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah, yeah. Because the idea is, oh well, well, the volunteer corps will diversify and then the employees will too. And that is not happening. The volunteer groups have diversified and they're, and it's not translating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To, to staff."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the volunteers have diversified even."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, there's still, there's still improvements to be made. But yeah, for the last five years it's been at 30 percent underrepresented groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's both, um, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, across the board?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.9196765828329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, there's still, there's still improvements to be made. But yeah, for the last five years it's been at 30 percent underrepresented groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's both, um, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, across the board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think we only track race, ethnicity, and gender. Well, sex, male and female really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We, they asked questions about whether or not you're transgender in the application, on the health history form, but that's just for medical purposes. We don't track that in terms of demographics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And of course, if it's considered not welcoming, then people don't come. They're so self-perpetuating."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.54281059609, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We, they asked questions about whether or not you're transgender in the application, on the health history form, but that's just for medical purposes. We don't track that in terms of demographics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And of course, if it's considered not welcoming, then people don't come. They're so self-perpetuating."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And people talk to each other. Volunteers have friends who are not volunteers, who are maybe considering it. And if they have a great experience, they'll translate that. If they don't have a great experience, they'll translate that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. So."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And right now, I mean, they just started this refer-a-friend program, and I would not refer a friend to the Peace Corps right now, personally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. Even though you had a good experience. Do you think you had a good experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 6.1586784401, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And people talk to each other. Volunteers have friends who are not volunteers, who are maybe considering it. And if they have a great experience, they'll translate that. If they don't have a great experience, they'll translate that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. So."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And right now, I mean, they just started this refer-a-friend program, and I would not refer a friend to the Peace Corps right now, personally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. Even though you had a good experience. Do you think you had a good experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think all told, yeah. The days were long but the months went by fast. Um, and I learned a lot and it got me here. And the last three years have been really hard. Coming back was really, really difficult, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was hard about coming back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2874204890000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And right now, I mean, they just started this refer-a-friend program, and I would not refer a friend to the Peace Corps right now, personally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. Even though you had a good experience. Do you think you had a good experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think all told, yeah. The days were long but the months went by fast. Um, and I learned a lot and it got me here. And the last three years have been really hard. Coming back was really, really difficult, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was hard about coming back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it came, um. Before the Peace Corps, I lived in Oregon for 12 years, so that's a much different culture. And then I lived in Mexico for four years, much different culture. So then I moved back for this job. So West Coast Mexican culture clashing with East Coast culture. Um, the job was really difficult, the election, and then an understaffed, under-resourced office for the last few years. And personal stuff. Um. But it also made me realize the importance of dealing with all of that stuff and coming out the other side. I see once again how resilient I am and how important it is to take care of myself and for others to take care of themselves and, and to just, you know, treat each other with love and kindness and try to see that we're all doing the best we can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you found your niche, though, whether it's at Peace Corps or not, you'll be involved in diversity."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.4304672100000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think all told, yeah. The days were long but the months went by fast. Um, and I learned a lot and it got me here. And the last three years have been really hard. Coming back was really, really difficult, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was hard about coming back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it came, um. Before the Peace Corps, I lived in Oregon for 12 years, so that's a much different culture. And then I lived in Mexico for four years, much different culture. So then I moved back for this job. So West Coast Mexican culture clashing with East Coast culture. Um, the job was really difficult, the election, and then an understaffed, under-resourced office for the last few years. And personal stuff. Um. But it also made me realize the importance of dealing with all of that stuff and coming out the other side. I see once again how resilient I am and how important it is to take care of myself and for others to take care of themselves and, and to just, you know, treat each other with love and kindness and try to see that we're all doing the best we can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you found your niche, though, whether it's at Peace Corps or not, you'll be involved in diversity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Training and, and other issues. How long have you been at Peace Corps now?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.47829690000000014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it came, um. Before the Peace Corps, I lived in Oregon for 12 years, so that's a much different culture. And then I lived in Mexico for four years, much different culture. So then I moved back for this job. So West Coast Mexican culture clashing with East Coast culture. Um, the job was really difficult, the election, and then an understaffed, under-resourced office for the last few years. And personal stuff. Um. But it also made me realize the importance of dealing with all of that stuff and coming out the other side. I see once again how resilient I am and how important it is to take care of myself and for others to take care of themselves and, and to just, you know, treat each other with love and kindness and try to see that we're all doing the best we can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you found your niche, though, whether it's at Peace Corps or not, you'll be involved in diversity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Training and, and other issues. How long have you been at Peace Corps now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three years. So you have two more to go. Are you going to, what do you think you'll do afterwards?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5314410000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Training and, and other issues. How long have you been at Peace Corps now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three years. So you have two more to go. Are you going to, what do you think you'll do afterwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not really sure. Um, I think probably another federal agency, at least for a little while, just to see what it's like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, so D.C. isn't as bad as it as you thought it was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5904900000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three years. So you have two more to go. Are you going to, what do you think you'll do afterwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not really sure. Um, I think probably another federal agency, at least for a little while, just to see what it's like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, so D.C. isn't as bad as it as you thought it was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's growing on me now. Now that I'm, like, less traumatized, I think. Um, yeah, it's, it's getting better. It's growing on me, I think. And I think job prospects are pretty good here probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, and there are federal agencies all over the country as well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7290000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's growing on me now. Now that I'm, like, less traumatized, I think. Um, yeah, it's, it's getting better. It's growing on me, I think. And I think job prospects are pretty good here probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, and there are federal agencies all over the country as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there any questions I didn't ask you that you or something you want to say that, um, that I didn't ask you about? This is really your interview."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there any questions I didn't ask you that you or something you want to say that, um, that I didn't ask you about? This is really your interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, I guess I did say that I didn't get along with volunteers a number of times. But I do want to clarify that that was, I mean, there were, of course, people that I, I got along with. I would just say there were cohorts after me in Mexico that were super tight, and they all got along. And I got to see that because I was there for so long. And so I'm just a little jealous of that. But I definitely had some friends from other, especially from other groups who I am still in contact with and I see on a regular basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's the luck of the draw, who you end up with."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there any questions I didn't ask you that you or something you want to say that, um, that I didn't ask you about? This is really your interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, I guess I did say that I didn't get along with volunteers a number of times. But I do want to clarify that that was, I mean, there were, of course, people that I, I got along with. I would just say there were cohorts after me in Mexico that were super tight, and they all got along. And I got to see that because I was there for so long. And so I'm just a little jealous of that. But I definitely had some friends from other, especially from other groups who I am still in contact with and I see on a regular basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's the luck of the draw, who you end up with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Especially since Mexico is in a transition in the program and all that kind of stuff. So we were all sort of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mexico was in a transition as a program? In what respect?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, I guess I did say that I didn't get along with volunteers a number of times. But I do want to clarify that that was, I mean, there were, of course, people that I, I got along with. I would just say there were cohorts after me in Mexico that were super tight, and they all got along. And I got to see that because I was there for so long. And so I'm just a little jealous of that. But I definitely had some friends from other, especially from other groups who I am still in contact with and I see on a regular basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's the luck of the draw, who you end up with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Especially since Mexico is in a transition in the program and all that kind of stuff. So we were all sort of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mexico was in a transition as a program? In what respect?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, because it's so new, I think they've been figuring out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did it actually start?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Especially since Mexico is in a transition in the program and all that kind of stuff. So we were all sort of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mexico was in a transition as a program? In what respect?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, because it's so new, I think they've been figuring out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did it actually start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In 2006."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so just a short time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, because it's so new, I think they've been figuring out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did it actually start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In 2006."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so just a short time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many volunteers are there now, do you know?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In 2006."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so just a short time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many volunteers are there now, do you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think at a time they have about 65 to 80."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's a pretty small program."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think at a time they have about 65 to 80."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's a pretty small program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, they were starting to expand more, but the sites where it's safe to send folks are so far away from the office that it's hard for staff to get there in a timely manner, because they have to. Peace Corps changed some of the rules, and they have rules now about how many times staff have to visit volunteers. And so they're like constantly traveling to fulfill those requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So thank you for the interview."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00146:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, they were starting to expand more, but the sites where it's safe to send folks are so far away from the office that it's hard for staff to get there in a timely manner, because they have to. Peace Corps changed some of the rules, and they have rules now about how many times staff have to visit volunteers. And so they're like constantly traveling to fulfill those requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So thank you for the interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Thank you. This was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.028799021387115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I joined the Peace Corps because my mother was a as a Return Peace Corps Volunteer from Peru. She went to the University of Michigan as an undergraduate and heard Kennedy speak and became involved in the formation of the Peace Corps and then ended up serving from 1964 to 1965 in Peru. So I grew up aware of what the Peace Corps was. And then I also had a personal interest in learning more about international development and living. I wanted to live in another country and explore other cultures and to be able to travel. So I applied to the Peace Corps year after graduating from the University of Michigan and. Yes, so that's why I joined."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I don't have to ask the questions about the what your parents thought about this. No, there was there was support there. What did your friends think about this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My friends, I grew up. I knew I wanted to go into the Peace Corps. I had mentioned it in high school. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn't a big surprise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not a big surprise in my case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And what did you study in college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.587554468207905, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My friends, I grew up. I knew I wanted to go into the Peace Corps. I had mentioned it in high school. So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn't a big surprise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not a big surprise in my case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And what did you study in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I studied economics. So I was I have an interest in economic development and still want to go on and get a master's degree in economic development. So I felt the Peace Corps was a way to kind of experience that firsthand. I also had a professor that I was doing independent study for. She was she's an economist and she was in the Peace Corps as well in South America. So that was another influence, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you applied, did you ask for a certain part of the world?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.097282742453228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not a big surprise in my case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And what did you study in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I studied economics. So I was I have an interest in economic development and still want to go on and get a master's degree in economic development. So I felt the Peace Corps was a way to kind of experience that firsthand. I also had a professor that I was doing independent study for. She was she's an economist and she was in the Peace Corps as well in South America. So that was another influence, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you applied, did you ask for a certain part of the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought open ended. I don't speak Spanish, so I wasn't sure about I wanted to go to maybe to Peru, like my mother, or South America. But I felt open ended and I maybe I was leaning towards Eastern Europe. I had taken what they called in my high school German history. So I learned a lot about Eastern Europe through through some history courses in high school. And I was interested in exploring learning more about Eastern Europe. So that's where I ended up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you hadn't applied for it? They just came back with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.885869713836918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I studied economics. So I was I have an interest in economic development and still want to go on and get a master's degree in economic development. So I felt the Peace Corps was a way to kind of experience that firsthand. I also had a professor that I was doing independent study for. She was she's an economist and she was in the Peace Corps as well in South America. So that was another influence, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you applied, did you ask for a certain part of the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought open ended. I don't speak Spanish, so I wasn't sure about I wanted to go to maybe to Peru, like my mother, or South America. But I felt open ended and I maybe I was leaning towards Eastern Europe. I had taken what they called in my high school German history. So I learned a lot about Eastern Europe through through some history courses in high school. And I was interested in exploring learning more about Eastern Europe. So that's where I ended up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you hadn't applied for it? They just came back with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With my interview, they mentioned. She asked me and I may have said in the end, maybe I'll choose Eastern Europe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so you were selected and then where where was the staging, or was it staging at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 28.762077459818798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought open ended. I don't speak Spanish, so I wasn't sure about I wanted to go to maybe to Peru, like my mother, or South America. But I felt open ended and I maybe I was leaning towards Eastern Europe. I had taken what they called in my high school German history. So I learned a lot about Eastern Europe through through some history courses in high school. And I was interested in exploring learning more about Eastern Europe. So that's where I ended up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you hadn't applied for it? They just came back with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With my interview, they mentioned. She asked me and I may have said in the end, maybe I'll choose Eastern Europe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so you were selected and then where where was the staging, or was it staging at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yes, it actually took me a long time to be selected. It took me two years. So I did volunteer work at a Beverly Beverly Bootstrap thrift store for the Peace Corps. And I also was a receptionist at Heifer Learning Center Overlook Farm. So it took me a long time to actually become a nominee and be selected for whatever reason."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you know why it took so long?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.513419399798664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With my interview, they mentioned. She asked me and I may have said in the end, maybe I'll choose Eastern Europe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so you were selected and then where where was the staging, or was it staging at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yes, it actually took me a long time to be selected. It took me two years. So I did volunteer work at a Beverly Beverly Bootstrap thrift store for the Peace Corps. And I also was a receptionist at Heifer Learning Center Overlook Farm. So it took me a long time to actually become a nominee and be selected for whatever reason."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you know why it took so long?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were looking for more work experience to be a nonprofit developer, I think. And so I also worked at Bank of America as well. So once I was selected, the staging took place in D.C., so that's where I met my G5, we were the fifth group in Georgia and there are probably close to 50 of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All in nonprofit development?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.45935488866518, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yes, it actually took me a long time to be selected. It took me two years. So I did volunteer work at a Beverly Beverly Bootstrap thrift store for the Peace Corps. And I also was a receptionist at Heifer Learning Center Overlook Farm. So it took me a long time to actually become a nominee and be selected for whatever reason."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you know why it took so long?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were looking for more work experience to be a nonprofit developer, I think. And so I also worked at Bank of America as well. So once I was selected, the staging took place in D.C., so that's where I met my G5, we were the fifth group in Georgia and there are probably close to 50 of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All in nonprofit development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the majority were TEFL English teaching volunteers. And then there was about maybe I don't really know, actually a 20 or so out of that or nonprofit developers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened in D.C.?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 29.399283209627978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were looking for more work experience to be a nonprofit developer, I think. And so I also worked at Bank of America as well. So once I was selected, the staging took place in D.C., so that's where I met my G5, we were the fifth group in Georgia and there are probably close to 50 of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All in nonprofit development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the majority were TEFL English teaching volunteers. And then there was about maybe I don't really know, actually a 20 or so out of that or nonprofit developers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened in D.C.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just had the general staging that the Peace Corps must do. Nothing, nothing outstanding. You slowly meet people in your group and um, we moved on to, you know, flying out of D.C. and going straight to. We stopped in Amsterdam, so I got to see a little of Amsterdam with some other volunteers. We went around and then we we flew into Georgia. And it was in the middle of the night. It was like 3:00 a.m. or something. So it was pitch dark and it was their old airport. So that's kind of, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you fly? Directly to Tbilisi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 27.110314677364418, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the majority were TEFL English teaching volunteers. And then there was about maybe I don't really know, actually a 20 or so out of that or nonprofit developers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened in D.C.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just had the general staging that the Peace Corps must do. Nothing, nothing outstanding. You slowly meet people in your group and um, we moved on to, you know, flying out of D.C. and going straight to. We stopped in Amsterdam, so I got to see a little of Amsterdam with some other volunteers. We went around and then we we flew into Georgia. And it was in the middle of the night. It was like 3:00 a.m. or something. So it was pitch dark and it was their old airport. So that's kind of, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you fly? Directly to Tbilisi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Tbilisi and we all got on a bus. They had handed out snacks and took us to sort of a resort area. I don't remember what it was called, but it was it was also like an old palace there and everything. And so we hung out there for a few days and we started our training. So we got like, ah, understood more about what the language was, what what our jobs were, and and structure to the Peace Corps is what they really provided. So I had a roommate, Carol Kimlin, and that went fine. You know, we weren't near anything. So all we had was this like compound out in the wilderness of Georgia. It was cool for what I thought the summertime was. And and then after that, that was a few days, then we went to our training sites. My training site was Gori, and in Gori there were 15 of us. And I was in a group of five. Two of the men were married and their wives were serving in the Peace Corps, but they were in different language classes. And then there was Elise Pizzi and Chris Mandic. And we were we had language courses in the mornings and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what is the language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.407839063600026, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The language is Kartuli, Georgian. So they didn't teach us Russian. But Russians have very fluency, fluent in that part of the world and in Georgia. So we started learning Georgian. I lived actually with a host family, who I'm still friends with on Facebook, for two months. This is during my training. Mya and she took care of me. She was close to my age, early 20s, and I think I was 26 when I joined, when I actually got into the Peace Corps. She had two brothers and then her two parents, but Mya spoke fluent English, so she really took care of me. They gave me the master bedroom to sleep in. And so they were my first experience in Georgia, I guess. And in my case, it was it was kind of a culture shock. So it was less food change and changing food. A lot of bread, wine, wine, which is a Georgia specialty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Georgia. So, you know, the Peace Corps gave lots of warnings about not drinking, but of course, you're going to try the wine. Right. And I don't know. And then we would so I go to my trainings and then I come back and I have dinner sort of on my own, aside from the family. And then they all watch TV. And what they love to watch was America's Funniest Home Videos reruns from like 20 years ago. So they thought that was a riot. So it was kind of, here I was in this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Georgian, dubbed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think it was, it could have been Georgian. I wasn't even sure. I didn't understand it. So here I was in this Gori apartment, you know, just stereotypical Russian high rise and. You know, it was kind of it was very run down like holes in the floors and no running water, really, and and they were watching America's Funniest Home Videos for fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just so describe the apartments."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.342043404000027, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Georgia. So, you know, the Peace Corps gave lots of warnings about not drinking, but of course, you're going to try the wine. Right. And I don't know. And then we would so I go to my trainings and then I come back and I have dinner sort of on my own, aside from the family. And then they all watch TV. And what they love to watch was America's Funniest Home Videos reruns from like 20 years ago. So they thought that was a riot. So it was kind of, here I was in this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Georgian, dubbed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think it was, it could have been Georgian. I wasn't even sure. I didn't understand it. So here I was in this Gori apartment, you know, just stereotypical Russian high rise and. You know, it was kind of it was very run down like holes in the floors and no running water, really, and and they were watching America's Funniest Home Videos for fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just so describe the apartments."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The apartment was a two bedroom. Kitchen, eating kitchen and a living room, I guess there was running water I could do I did laundry a couple of times and bathed a couple times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was water."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.87906593086423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The apartment was a two bedroom. Kitchen, eating kitchen and a living room, I guess there was running water I could do I did laundry a couple of times and bathed a couple times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was water."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is for heating. There was there was electricity. Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that what was the shock and you mentioned food, less food and different food, what was the food?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.532295478738032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is for heating. There was there was electricity. Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that what was the shock and you mentioned food, less food and different food, what was the food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe just different tastes, you know. Um, so, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got used to it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 29.480328309708923, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is for heating. There was there was electricity. Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that what was the shock and you mentioned food, less food and different food, what was the food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe just different tastes, you know. Um, so, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got used to it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got used to it, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. OK, so you stayed with them and what, what was the language training like, every day?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.08925367745436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe just different tastes, you know. Um, so, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got used to it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got used to it, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. OK, so you stayed with them and what, what was the language training like, every day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We had it every day in the morning. Elza Carelli was my language teacher and she would she you know, it's just basic Georgian like how are you, rogor xar, and these things. And then in the afternoon was our nonprofit development training. So we had a trainer named Tango and he went on to work for the Peace Corps and now he works for the World Bank. So he's fluent in English. And he would go out to different non-profits like youth centers and stuff like that as part of our training to get a sense of it. So we learned about grant writing, so structures of nonprofits and different structures of grants and stuff like that. So it was new to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, what was, what is the nonprofit development? What does it mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 22.57932552772143, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We had it every day in the morning. Elza Carelli was my language teacher and she would she you know, it's just basic Georgian like how are you, rogor xar, and these things. And then in the afternoon was our nonprofit development training. So we had a trainer named Tango and he went on to work for the Peace Corps and now he works for the World Bank. So he's fluent in English. And he would go out to different non-profits like youth centers and stuff like that as part of our training to get a sense of it. So we learned about grant writing, so structures of nonprofits and different structures of grants and stuff like that. So it was new to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, what was, what is the nonprofit development? What does it mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our job is was to we were assigned to nonprofits and it was to kind of find funding for the, for different projects that the nonprofit does. So after my training in Gori, I went. We had another staging event and then we went off to our site. So at the site I met my counterpart Sopico Mansulla Schwilley and she she, uh, she is kind of like a like an old communist type. I don't know how to, very strict, very, very hierarchical kind of woman. And so I met her and she was trying to work with she was trying to start a nonprofit called Spectry in the city of Sagarejo. So that was my final site, was Sagarejo. Sagarejo is a city of 20,000 people about half an hour outside of Tbilisi. Yeah, you get there by marshrutkas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's marshrutkas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marshrutkas was just a van that they drive. They had marshrutkas all over the country, so you pay like one or two laris to take it and they drive you around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So like taking a bus?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.196698182372133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marshrutkas was just a van that they drive. They had marshrutkas all over the country, so you pay like one or two laris to take it and they drive you around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So like taking a bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like taking a bus, but it's a shared van. And so I got to site. So when I got to site, Sopico took me to my site from training shall we stopped at her house and she had two children, a boy and a girl and they're like mid teens. And so she had a very nice house and we had like a snack lunch at our house. And then she and her husband drove, drove me to her, to my host family. So my host family I lived with for two years. She, so there was Dolly, my host mother, and she was probably around 50. There was Mari, my host sister, she was eight years old when I first moved there. And then there was my host brother. He was twenty four when I first moved there. It's in this beautiful large farm home, probably as big as any American home. It had three bedrooms, a living room on the second floor. No running water in this case and then a very large dining room and a living room and a kitchen and then a bathroom area, but there was no running water. So we get water like every week through a hose and she put it into big barrels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was there no water because it was out in the country and there was no well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's infrastructure for water, there was just so the house had two bathrooms and even a shower installed, but there was just no the infrastructure had run out. So there was also no heat in the winter because of the, um, I guess Russia doesn't pump gas to Georgia. So there was also no heat. So the for the first winter, I actually slept in the living room with my host mother and host sister. I had my own bed and they had another large bed. And so I lived like that for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a fireplace?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.711973064656952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's infrastructure for water, there was just so the house had two bathrooms and even a shower installed, but there was just no the infrastructure had run out. So there was also no heat in the winter because of the, um, I guess Russia doesn't pump gas to Georgia. So there was also no heat. So the for the first winter, I actually slept in the living room with my host mother and host sister. I had my own bed and they had another large bed. And so I lived like that for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a fireplace?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had a wood stove that they put in our living room. So it heat the kitchen and the living room and the rest house is freezing cold. Yes, and then and then I met the woman, Tom Ricoh, who runs the youth house, and she's a lovely lady and I'm with her on Facebook too, and the women at the youth house. So there were two English teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you stayed with the family. You met the woman who started the nonprofit. Did you work at the nonprofit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. But it wasn't like it was. It was it was not like a job I went to every day. So I met with her maybe like once a week initially. And then there were some times when I never saw her. And then by the end of my service, we were doing some projects and I saw some more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was very loose?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.01330340517439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had a wood stove that they put in our living room. So it heat the kitchen and the living room and the rest house is freezing cold. Yes, and then and then I met the woman, Tom Ricoh, who runs the youth house, and she's a lovely lady and I'm with her on Facebook too, and the women at the youth house. So there were two English teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you stayed with the family. You met the woman who started the nonprofit. Did you work at the nonprofit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. But it wasn't like it was. It was it was not like a job I went to every day. So I met with her maybe like once a week initially. And then there were some times when I never saw her. And then by the end of my service, we were doing some projects and I saw some more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was very loose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Where I spent all my time at the youth house, I went to the youth house every single day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to develop that or was that developed by Peace Corps, the Youth House?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.459226005749322, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. But it wasn't like it was. It was it was not like a job I went to every day. So I met with her maybe like once a week initially. And then there were some times when I never saw her. And then by the end of my service, we were doing some projects and I saw some more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was very loose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Where I spent all my time at the youth house, I went to the youth house every single day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to develop that or was that developed by Peace Corps, the Youth House?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The youth house was, I was assigned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh you were assigned to that. And so what was the youth house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.0658066730548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Where I spent all my time at the youth house, I went to the youth house every single day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to develop that or was that developed by Peace Corps, the Youth House?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The youth house was, I was assigned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh you were assigned to that. And so what was the youth house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Youth who say they had school aged children, probably from first grade to the end of high school, show up and they do they teach languages, so they would teach Russian and English and they would also do like put on plays and Georgian dance. So it's kind of like a cultural youth center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your role there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.29534074783867, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The youth house was, I was assigned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh you were assigned to that. And so what was the youth house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Youth who say they had school aged children, probably from first grade to the end of high school, show up and they do they teach languages, so they would teach Russian and English and they would also do like put on plays and Georgian dance. So it's kind of like a cultural youth center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your role there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My role was to teach English, but it was also just to experience you know, I sit with the women every day. They would have snacks like hot chicory or even animal crackers out. And it's not like there's a whole lot to do.\n\nSo it’s a lot of sitting and talking. And I think my first year oh, they want to know about Halloween. So I showed up in the fall, at the end of August. And so they thought Halloween was great. So I carved, um, they don't have, they call them gogras. They're green pumpkins. I don't know what they're called here. No orange pumpkins, but so I carved one for them and they thought that was the best thing ever because they they were so curious about this Halloween holiday we have. And two of the teens dressed up in costumes. And I thought that was the best thing ever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were assigned to the youth house, what for what purpose were you assigned there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.661489719820745, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Youth who say they had school aged children, probably from first grade to the end of high school, show up and they do they teach languages, so they would teach Russian and English and they would also do like put on plays and Georgian dance. So it's kind of like a cultural youth center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your role there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My role was to teach English, but it was also just to experience you know, I sit with the women every day. They would have snacks like hot chicory or even animal crackers out. And it's not like there's a whole lot to do.\n\nSo it’s a lot of sitting and talking. And I think my first year oh, they want to know about Halloween. So I showed up in the fall, at the end of August. And so they thought Halloween was great. So I carved, um, they don't have, they call them gogras. They're green pumpkins. I don't know what they're called here. No orange pumpkins, but so I carved one for them and they thought that was the best thing ever because they they were so curious about this Halloween holiday we have. And two of the teens dressed up in costumes. And I thought that was the best thing ever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were assigned to the youth house, what for what purpose were you assigned there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To to write grants and to to teach English or to help them out in any way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So who would you write grants to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.17943302202305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My role was to teach English, but it was also just to experience you know, I sit with the women every day. They would have snacks like hot chicory or even animal crackers out. And it's not like there's a whole lot to do.\n\nSo it’s a lot of sitting and talking. And I think my first year oh, they want to know about Halloween. So I showed up in the fall, at the end of August. And so they thought Halloween was great. So I carved, um, they don't have, they call them gogras. They're green pumpkins. I don't know what they're called here. No orange pumpkins, but so I carved one for them and they thought that was the best thing ever because they they were so curious about this Halloween holiday we have. And two of the teens dressed up in costumes. And I thought that was the best thing ever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were assigned to the youth house, what for what purpose were you assigned there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To to write grants and to to teach English or to help them out in any way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So who would you write grants to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when I did write grants, I got them funding through the Peace Corps. Let me just look up what I did. There’s two Peace Corps grants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got funding from the National Peace Corps, or was it local?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.86603669113672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To to write grants and to to teach English or to help them out in any way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So who would you write grants to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when I did write grants, I got them funding through the Peace Corps. Let me just look up what I did. There’s two Peace Corps grants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got funding from the National Peace Corps, or was it local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Local, I think. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that were there other sources?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.406707434596358, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when I did write grants, I got them funding through the Peace Corps. Let me just look up what I did. There’s two Peace Corps grants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got funding from the National Peace Corps, or was it local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Local, I think. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that were there other sources?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps Partnership Program. I got some small computers my second year and I also got them donations of English books from a place in Connecticut. And they would come every like four months or so, a box of English books. And so in the computer lab, I got them two computers plus bookshelves and. And they thought that was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the idea, to go to Peace Corps in the United States for funding, or other sources in Georgia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.007452705107063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Local, I think. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that were there other sources?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps Partnership Program. I got some small computers my second year and I also got them donations of English books from a place in Connecticut. And they would come every like four months or so, a box of English books. And so in the computer lab, I got them two computers plus bookshelves and. And they thought that was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the idea, to go to Peace Corps in the United States for funding, or other sources in Georgia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a source in Georgia, Peace Corps Georgia. And then I did other funding for respect for for the non profit Spectry. I was able to renovate the regional hospital’s gynecological department. I got funding. I, I wrote a grant for the gynecology department. So I interviewed the doctor there and the director of the hospital. And Sophico was there for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did what kind of funding did you get for that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.452725227896739, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps Partnership Program. I got some small computers my second year and I also got them donations of English books from a place in Connecticut. And they would come every like four months or so, a box of English books. And so in the computer lab, I got them two computers plus bookshelves and. And they thought that was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the idea, to go to Peace Corps in the United States for funding, or other sources in Georgia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a source in Georgia, Peace Corps Georgia. And then I did other funding for respect for for the non profit Spectry. I was able to renovate the regional hospital’s gynecological department. I got funding. I, I wrote a grant for the gynecology department. So I interviewed the doctor there and the director of the hospital. And Sophico was there for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did what kind of funding did you get for that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I ended up meeting the with some Peace Corps get together the like. I think he was assistant ambassador for the embassy and he said they were looking to renovate hospitals. So we got ten thousand dollars from the State Department and Counterpart International donated medical equipment and also did the renovation of the hospital. So I included a bathroom, new beds, a surgical table, paint, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you guys had funding from State Department and who was the local?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.94747247544082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a source in Georgia, Peace Corps Georgia. And then I did other funding for respect for for the non profit Spectry. I was able to renovate the regional hospital’s gynecological department. I got funding. I, I wrote a grant for the gynecology department. So I interviewed the doctor there and the director of the hospital. And Sophico was there for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did what kind of funding did you get for that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I ended up meeting the with some Peace Corps get together the like. I think he was assistant ambassador for the embassy and he said they were looking to renovate hospitals. So we got ten thousand dollars from the State Department and Counterpart International donated medical equipment and also did the renovation of the hospital. So I included a bathroom, new beds, a surgical table, paint, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you guys had funding from State Department and who was the local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Counterpart International."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Counterpart International. And you did this all in English or in English?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.386080528267577, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I ended up meeting the with some Peace Corps get together the like. I think he was assistant ambassador for the embassy and he said they were looking to renovate hospitals. So we got ten thousand dollars from the State Department and Counterpart International donated medical equipment and also did the renovation of the hospital. So I included a bathroom, new beds, a surgical table, paint, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you guys had funding from State Department and who was the local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Counterpart International."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Counterpart International. And you did this all in English or in English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was in English. I had the English teacher from the U.S. translate for me to the doctor because he didn't speak any English or my Georgian wasn't good enough. So that was a great success and that took that took like a year and a half and in the process and I just communicated with the doctor at the hospital, he sat there looking at more kind of renovation projects on their own. I thought it was what a wonderful idea. They never thought of looking for funding for their hospital before. So they thought that was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you just happened to find out about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.762311698075086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Counterpart International."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Counterpart International. And you did this all in English or in English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was in English. I had the English teacher from the U.S. translate for me to the doctor because he didn't speak any English or my Georgian wasn't good enough. So that was a great success and that took that took like a year and a half and in the process and I just communicated with the doctor at the hospital, he sat there looking at more kind of renovation projects on their own. I thought it was what a wonderful idea. They never thought of looking for funding for their hospital before. So they thought that was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you just happened to find out about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I, I was looking to do community development projects with. So because she thought of I thought it was like one of the hospitals. And so she, she thought the gynecology department there needed some, some assistance because wealthy Georgians in Sagarejo would just go into Tbilisi. But the poor population doesn't, can't afford to do that to go to the with the hospitals. So it ends up serving the poor Georgians in Sagarejo, as well as small Azeri population that resettle near there, so it was badly needed, you know, like the windows were broken and everything, so, yeah. Very pleased."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's great. Yeah. So that's what you did. And that's why a big project. So that took quite a bit of time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.18034633119454, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was in English. I had the English teacher from the U.S. translate for me to the doctor because he didn't speak any English or my Georgian wasn't good enough. So that was a great success and that took that took like a year and a half and in the process and I just communicated with the doctor at the hospital, he sat there looking at more kind of renovation projects on their own. I thought it was what a wonderful idea. They never thought of looking for funding for their hospital before. So they thought that was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you just happened to find out about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I, I was looking to do community development projects with. So because she thought of I thought it was like one of the hospitals. And so she, she thought the gynecology department there needed some, some assistance because wealthy Georgians in Sagarejo would just go into Tbilisi. But the poor population doesn't, can't afford to do that to go to the with the hospitals. So it ends up serving the poor Georgians in Sagarejo, as well as small Azeri population that resettle near there, so it was badly needed, you know, like the windows were broken and everything, so, yeah. Very pleased."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's great. Yeah. So that's what you did. And that's why a big project. So that took quite a bit of time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And a lot of waiting too. But I also taught English at the youth house and to about first graders and I also taught an English class to adults, to medical doctors for the first year that I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You lived with another Peace Corps volunteer you said?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.755940367993933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I, I was looking to do community development projects with. So because she thought of I thought it was like one of the hospitals. And so she, she thought the gynecology department there needed some, some assistance because wealthy Georgians in Sagarejo would just go into Tbilisi. But the poor population doesn't, can't afford to do that to go to the with the hospitals. So it ends up serving the poor Georgians in Sagarejo, as well as small Azeri population that resettle near there, so it was badly needed, you know, like the windows were broken and everything, so, yeah. Very pleased."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's great. Yeah. So that's what you did. And that's why a big project. So that took quite a bit of time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And a lot of waiting too. But I also taught English at the youth house and to about first graders and I also taught an English class to adults, to medical doctors for the first year that I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You lived with another Peace Corps volunteer you said?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I lived with a host family, with a host family. So like my first year, they had a vineyard. So my first year, they took me out to the vineyard to pick grapes. And they showed me the process of how they put the grapes through the machine that squashes them. And then it goes down into this huge, huge, huge barrel and they're in the basement of the house and it ferments there and then they drink it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it good wine?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.34066712098016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I lived with a host family, with a host family. So like my first year, they had a vineyard. So my first year, they took me out to the vineyard to pick grapes. And they showed me the process of how they put the grapes through the machine that squashes them. And then it goes down into this huge, huge, huge barrel and they're in the basement of the house and it ferments there and then they drink it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it good wine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fine. Not the best wine, but it's what it was there to drink. So, yeah. And they also had what they called dinner party supras. And somehow my house mother would have them for birthdays or for different occasions. And so that's when they bring out the national dishes like khinkali and tons of food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Khinkali’s a meat dumpling. My other favorite food was khachapuri, cheese bread, so cheese baked inside bread. But otherwise I ate a lot of cheese and a lot of bread and a lot of soupe, which was, and potato. So that was kind of my meal. It would take me. I lived on the main road and I'd walk up this huge hill to get to the center of town of Sagarejo and that's where the youth house was and everything. So I had my own little routine in in Sagarejo in the village, so people would wave to me on my way to work and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to be friends with other folks or mostly the family you were with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.378519023311288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fine. Not the best wine, but it's what it was there to drink. So, yeah. And they also had what they called dinner party supras. And somehow my house mother would have them for birthdays or for different occasions. And so that's when they bring out the national dishes like khinkali and tons of food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Khinkali’s a meat dumpling. My other favorite food was khachapuri, cheese bread, so cheese baked inside bread. But otherwise I ate a lot of cheese and a lot of bread and a lot of soupe, which was, and potato. So that was kind of my meal. It would take me. I lived on the main road and I'd walk up this huge hill to get to the center of town of Sagarejo and that's where the youth house was and everything. So I had my own little routine in in Sagarejo in the village, so people would wave to me on my way to work and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to be friends with other folks or mostly the family you were with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly the family. And that's probably because of the language barrier. I found Georgian hard to study. I did pay a tutor. But it was all right. Nobody expects the American to know Georgian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is Georgian like Russian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.420576692568098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Khinkali’s a meat dumpling. My other favorite food was khachapuri, cheese bread, so cheese baked inside bread. But otherwise I ate a lot of cheese and a lot of bread and a lot of soupe, which was, and potato. So that was kind of my meal. It would take me. I lived on the main road and I'd walk up this huge hill to get to the center of town of Sagarejo and that's where the youth house was and everything. So I had my own little routine in in Sagarejo in the village, so people would wave to me on my way to work and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to be friends with other folks or mostly the family you were with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly the family. And that's probably because of the language barrier. I found Georgian hard to study. I did pay a tutor. But it was all right. Nobody expects the American to know Georgian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is Georgian like Russian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's actually. I looked it up yesterday. It's closest to Greek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you what did you do during vacations? Did you have vacations?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.467307436186776, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly the family. And that's probably because of the language barrier. I found Georgian hard to study. I did pay a tutor. But it was all right. Nobody expects the American to know Georgian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is Georgian like Russian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's actually. I looked it up yesterday. It's closest to Greek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you what did you do during vacations? Did you have vacations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, I did some trips with other volunteers. My first winter, I went to Ukraine with a group and we did Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By train or how did you get there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 18.29700826242975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's actually. I looked it up yesterday. It's closest to Greek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you what did you do during vacations? Did you have vacations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, I did some trips with other volunteers. My first winter, I went to Ukraine with a group and we did Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By train or how did you get there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did it by train. We flew and then we we went by train to different places. And I mostly followed one of the volunteers. He was a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer from Russia. So he had lived and been to all these places. He was fluent in Russian. So he was sort of like our tour guide and I just kind of tagged along. But it was I thought Ukraine was beautiful with the churches and in the wintertime is a really great. And then I went out on another trip. To I went to Azerbaijan on a trip a year, a year through my service with a different group of volunteers, and they always stayed with expats who worked for, I think, BP, is that the oil company? And so we had a nice place to stay and that we saw Baku and we went out to even stayed at another Peace Corps volunteer’s site. I can't remember where it was, but we stayed with her and then we went off to this village that had one of those windy roads. You know, you see the bus in the bottom of the hill. So it's kind of scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you traveled around the whole area?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.3300091804775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, I did some trips with other volunteers. My first winter, I went to Ukraine with a group and we did Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By train or how did you get there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did it by train. We flew and then we we went by train to different places. And I mostly followed one of the volunteers. He was a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer from Russia. So he had lived and been to all these places. He was fluent in Russian. So he was sort of like our tour guide and I just kind of tagged along. But it was I thought Ukraine was beautiful with the churches and in the wintertime is a really great. And then I went out on another trip. To I went to Azerbaijan on a trip a year, a year through my service with a different group of volunteers, and they always stayed with expats who worked for, I think, BP, is that the oil company? And so we had a nice place to stay and that we saw Baku and we went out to even stayed at another Peace Corps volunteer’s site. I can't remember where it was, but we stayed with her and then we went off to this village that had one of those windy roads. You know, you see the bus in the bottom of the hill. So it's kind of scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you traveled around the whole area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to I also took a trip to Armenia for a long weekend. And I went I went to Riga and then at the end of my service, I went with Christina Jones through Turkey. We spent like three weeks in Turkey and we did eastern Turkey. And then went around the bottom of Turkey and then we ended up in Istanbul and then we went to Bulgaria and we went to Hungary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you saw a lot of Eastern Europe?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.477787978308333, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did it by train. We flew and then we we went by train to different places. And I mostly followed one of the volunteers. He was a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer from Russia. So he had lived and been to all these places. He was fluent in Russian. So he was sort of like our tour guide and I just kind of tagged along. But it was I thought Ukraine was beautiful with the churches and in the wintertime is a really great. And then I went out on another trip. To I went to Azerbaijan on a trip a year, a year through my service with a different group of volunteers, and they always stayed with expats who worked for, I think, BP, is that the oil company? And so we had a nice place to stay and that we saw Baku and we went out to even stayed at another Peace Corps volunteer’s site. I can't remember where it was, but we stayed with her and then we went off to this village that had one of those windy roads. You know, you see the bus in the bottom of the hill. So it's kind of scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you traveled around the whole area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to I also took a trip to Armenia for a long weekend. And I went I went to Riga and then at the end of my service, I went with Christina Jones through Turkey. We spent like three weeks in Turkey and we did eastern Turkey. And then went around the bottom of Turkey and then we ended up in Istanbul and then we went to Bulgaria and we went to Hungary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you saw a lot of Eastern Europe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Saw a lot of it, yeah. So that's what I did for travel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so that was to, and this is on the way home. You did all of that. So as you think back, was it a good experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.935540713960904, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Saw a lot of it, yeah. So that's what I did for travel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so that was to, and this is on the way home. You did all of that. So as you think back, was it a good experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I absolutely loved it. It was probably the happiest. My first year in service was the happiest year of my life so far I think. I loved living with that host family. And I loved, loved Mari, the little girl. I loved spending time with her and her host mother. And it was just a beautiful place to live. And, you know, it's difficult, like there's no place to shower. There's always those kind of hardships. But it was a beautiful, you felt a real sense of community. And just, yeah, it was great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think you contributed to the community?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.150600793289893, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I absolutely loved it. It was probably the happiest. My first year in service was the happiest year of my life so far I think. I loved living with that host family. And I loved, loved Mari, the little girl. I loved spending time with her and her host mother. And it was just a beautiful place to live. And, you know, it's difficult, like there's no place to shower. There's always those kind of hardships. But it was a beautiful, you felt a real sense of community. And just, yeah, it was great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think you contributed to the community?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish I, I wish I had been more effective in teaching English, I think. That was kind of new to me, but so it was I think I did a good job, but I think if I had more like too much teaching experience, I would have been more effective. But I was very proud of myself for renovating the regional hospital’s gynecology department. I thought that was, that's my biggest achievement. And then I enjoyed living with my host family and I hope to go see them maybe in a couple of years. Oh, well, it's been 10 years since I've been there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are you still in touch with them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.38955643698877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think you contributed to the community?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish I, I wish I had been more effective in teaching English, I think. That was kind of new to me, but so it was I think I did a good job, but I think if I had more like too much teaching experience, I would have been more effective. But I was very proud of myself for renovating the regional hospital’s gynecology department. I thought that was, that's my biggest achievement. And then I enjoyed living with my host family and I hope to go see them maybe in a couple of years. Oh, well, it's been 10 years since I've been there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are you still in touch with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Through Facebook and Skype, I call. I started calling them and my host sister, now she's like 19 and fluent in English. So she can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You teach her the English?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.76617381887641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish I, I wish I had been more effective in teaching English, I think. That was kind of new to me, but so it was I think I did a good job, but I think if I had more like too much teaching experience, I would have been more effective. But I was very proud of myself for renovating the regional hospital’s gynecology department. I thought that was, that's my biggest achievement. And then I enjoyed living with my host family and I hope to go see them maybe in a couple of years. Oh, well, it's been 10 years since I've been there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are you still in touch with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Through Facebook and Skype, I call. I started calling them and my host sister, now she's like 19 and fluent in English. So she can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You teach her the English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And so that was kind of my my regret. Now that I see how fluent she she is, I wish I had been able to teach her more. But she's kind of young. When my parents came to visit near the end of my service, they gave Mari English children's videos, VHSs of cartoons and stuff like that. So I don't know if she ever used them. But, you know, that may have helped her learn. She loved them at the time anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you kept up with Peace Corps since you've come back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 9.740193132084901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Through Facebook and Skype, I call. I started calling them and my host sister, now she's like 19 and fluent in English. So she can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You teach her the English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And so that was kind of my my regret. Now that I see how fluent she she is, I wish I had been able to teach her more. But she's kind of young. When my parents came to visit near the end of my service, they gave Mari English children's videos, VHSs of cartoons and stuff like that. So I don't know if she ever used them. But, you know, that may have helped her learn. She loved them at the time anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you kept up with Peace Corps since you've come back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I've been a member of Boston Area Peace Corps volunteer since about 2011. And I'm right now I'm the secretary for the club this year. So I go to their different events. And I this is my third Peace Corps Connect NPCA event. I come with my mother because she's also Returned Peace Corps Volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what have you done since Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.155770146761001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And so that was kind of my my regret. Now that I see how fluent she she is, I wish I had been able to teach her more. But she's kind of young. When my parents came to visit near the end of my service, they gave Mari English children's videos, VHSs of cartoons and stuff like that. So I don't know if she ever used them. But, you know, that may have helped her learn. She loved them at the time anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you kept up with Peace Corps since you've come back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I've been a member of Boston Area Peace Corps volunteer since about 2011. And I'm right now I'm the secretary for the club this year. So I go to their different events. And I this is my third Peace Corps Connect NPCA event. I come with my mother because she's also Returned Peace Corps Volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what have you done since Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I did AmeriCorps in Syracuse, New York. Right now I work in medical imaging. In the last two years, I've done a lot of different temp jobs. I was a proctor for a few years testing students for education research, testing new types of curriculum. So I work for two different nonprofits doing that. And, um, I, I've done like different data entry work for Mathematica Policy Research in their nutrition department. But I ended up in medical imaging and I hope to go on and maybe get a graduate degree in economic development. So I plan to take some online courses on that and prepare for that to keep to keep up my economic development."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And go back overseas?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.617522385290001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I've been a member of Boston Area Peace Corps volunteer since about 2011. And I'm right now I'm the secretary for the club this year. So I go to their different events. And I this is my third Peace Corps Connect NPCA event. I come with my mother because she's also Returned Peace Corps Volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what have you done since Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I did AmeriCorps in Syracuse, New York. Right now I work in medical imaging. In the last two years, I've done a lot of different temp jobs. I was a proctor for a few years testing students for education research, testing new types of curriculum. So I work for two different nonprofits doing that. And, um, I, I've done like different data entry work for Mathematica Policy Research in their nutrition department. But I ended up in medical imaging and I hope to go on and maybe get a graduate degree in economic development. So I plan to take some online courses on that and prepare for that to keep to keep up my economic development."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And go back overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I might. I might, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a good experience for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.130580428100001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I did AmeriCorps in Syracuse, New York. Right now I work in medical imaging. In the last two years, I've done a lot of different temp jobs. I was a proctor for a few years testing students for education research, testing new types of curriculum. So I work for two different nonprofits doing that. And, um, I, I've done like different data entry work for Mathematica Policy Research in their nutrition department. But I ended up in medical imaging and I hope to go on and maybe get a graduate degree in economic development. So I plan to take some online courses on that and prepare for that to keep to keep up my economic development."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And go back overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I might. I might, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a good experience for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh, yeah, it's very positive. It was a wonderful experience. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. I'm just trying to think. You were you were in your 20s."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.589533809000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I might. I might, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a good experience for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh, yeah, it's very positive. It was a wonderful experience. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. I'm just trying to think. You were you were in your 20s."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Late 20s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the first, no, you were Georgia 5."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.099482010000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh, yeah, it's very positive. It was a wonderful experience. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. I'm just trying to think. You were you were in your 20s."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Late 20s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the first, no, you were Georgia 5."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So is Peace Corps still in in Georgia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.443868900000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Late 20s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the first, no, you were Georgia 5."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So is Peace Corps still in in Georgia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008. So they did pull out Peace Corps then. But they returned. And I don't I don't actually know what G they're at now, but they have a new group every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but are there other things you want to talk about, about your Peace Corps experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.826521000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So is Peace Corps still in in Georgia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008. So they did pull out Peace Corps then. But they returned. And I don't I don't actually know what G they're at now, but they have a new group every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but are there other things you want to talk about, about your Peace Corps experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. No, just that I I really loved that Peace Corps connected me with this host family because I plan to go back and visit them and they took care of me in the wintertime in Georgia. And I really wanted to have survived on my own. And I truly love them. And I'm so glad for that friendship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a good experience for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.251690000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008. So they did pull out Peace Corps then. But they returned. And I don't I don't actually know what G they're at now, but they have a new group every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but are there other things you want to talk about, about your Peace Corps experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. No, just that I I really loved that Peace Corps connected me with this host family because I plan to go back and visit them and they took care of me in the wintertime in Georgia. And I really wanted to have survived on my own. And I truly love them. And I'm so glad for that friendship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a good experience for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a good experience for them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.724100000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. No, just that I I really loved that Peace Corps connected me with this host family because I plan to go back and visit them and they took care of me in the wintertime in Georgia. And I really wanted to have survived on my own. And I truly love them. And I'm so glad for that friendship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a good experience for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a good experience for them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, not just you, but the whole exposure to Americans."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.2490000000000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a good experience for them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, not just you, but the whole exposure to Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. Yeah. I think it opened their world up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have many Americans been around?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.61, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, not just you, but the whole exposure to Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. Yeah. I think it opened their world up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have many Americans been around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So there was only, I think I was the fourth volunteer at my site. So that's my host family. My host mother didn't speak a word of English, so they knew. All volunteers and networking at the youth center so Tamiko was maybe more familiar with Americans and having them over. But for my host mother, I think it was a great experience, too. And for my sister and host brother. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got the kind of support you needed from Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. Yeah. I think it opened their world up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have many Americans been around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So there was only, I think I was the fourth volunteer at my site. So that's my host family. My host mother didn't speak a word of English, so they knew. All volunteers and networking at the youth center so Tamiko was maybe more familiar with Americans and having them over. But for my host mother, I think it was a great experience, too. And for my sister and host brother. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got the kind of support you needed from Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I didn't really reach out to them. Maybe I should have more. I did get funding through two projects. I and I also did a women's, oh I forgot. I did a women's information center through Spectry so I got her a computer and we, we published some material that we tried to distribute and we went to different went to the Azeri village and so was on, about women's health. I got some information in Georgia and on women's health and stuff like that from John Snow. So that was another project I did. And I got funding through the Peace Corps. So I think the Peace Corps was very supportive of work when I did reach out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't need them that much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I didn't really reach out to them. Maybe I should have more. I did get funding through two projects. I and I also did a women's, oh I forgot. I did a women's information center through Spectry so I got her a computer and we, we published some material that we tried to distribute and we went to different went to the Azeri village and so was on, about women's health. I got some information in Georgia and on women's health and stuff like that from John Snow. So that was another project I did. And I got funding through the Peace Corps. So I think the Peace Corps was very supportive of work when I did reach out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't need them that much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, maybe I didn't. Yeah, I would go to the Peace Corps office just for comfort, maybe like every other week or so on the weekend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Into Tbilisi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Into Tbilisi, because I was so close. But there I just check my email and maybe see some other volunteers and then go on my way to through Tbilisi and go home. So, yeah, I'd say I had a very nice room, a very nice view out onto. So it was a very nice place. Like some volunteers, they changed flights and stuff like that. I actually stayed at site most nights because I was so close to Tbilisi and I had this beautiful bedroom and very nice, hospitable host family. So it was a great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. I don't have any more questions."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00049:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, maybe I didn't. Yeah, I would go to the Peace Corps office just for comfort, maybe like every other week or so on the weekend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Into Tbilisi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Into Tbilisi, because I was so close. But there I just check my email and maybe see some other volunteers and then go on my way to through Tbilisi and go home. So, yeah, I'd say I had a very nice room, a very nice view out onto. So it was a very nice place. Like some volunteers, they changed flights and stuff like that. I actually stayed at site most nights because I was so close to Tbilisi and I had this beautiful bedroom and very nice, hospitable host family. So it was a great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. I don't have any more questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So thank you for the interview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00213:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 172.07818154436313, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I thought that particularly in Mercury that some of that stuff, if not in the Mercury flights, later flights, would need a pool, which under Washington terms is a very well-defined thing, and I knew about that. And I wanted to make sure that it was very—and all the proper hands were laid on it and anointed. I went up and started, I guess, on the Senate side of the press gallery, because they had—I think they’d started a news pool for George Washington or somebody a couple of hundred years earlier, and I knew from history that that’s better, that’s the place to start. And ran around and got a lot of—and everybody kept saying, “Why do we need a news pool? There are only six or eight hundred still photographers in the world. We could all fit on the deck of a carrier.” But they began to see it might have an advantage, and we could identify that this will be a pool operation where the numbers would be.\\n\\n It went through, and it was easier getting it through all of the official Washington press stuff than it was through NASA, which as quickly as it started flying stuff, started developing a lot of other things that we’ll probably get into if we talk fast.\\n\\n Where have you got [Frank] Borman hung out?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sorry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re going to Las Cruces?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re not going to talk to Frank Borman? He’ll be very upset."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we came to talk to you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00213:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 190.0868683826257, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re going to Las Cruces?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re not going to talk to Frank Borman? He’ll be very upset."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we came to talk to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it goes, though. People come here and then they go—I always hear things about Borman. We don’t talk much to each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just hear it from other people."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00213:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 71, "return_to_go": 211.20763153625077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re not going to talk to Frank Borman? He’ll be very upset."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we came to talk to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it goes, though. People come here and then they go—I always hear things about Borman. We don’t talk much to each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just hear it from other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I hear it from other people or his wife. Did he leave something on—anyhoo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1963, you had the chance to come to Houston. How did that come about, and what was your position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00213:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 31, "return_to_go": 186.36341054322273, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Four days, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do the commentary on that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. We did three out of the Cape, and it was kind of like another Mercury flight, because it only lasted three revs [revolutions]. It was typical of Mercury. It was just kind of get it up and get it down, and let’s declare a big victory, first down or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you learn the commentary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’d been doing a lot of that in Mercury."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you done any commentary in Mercury?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.86940173839554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just a fantastic trip. It was good to see the countryside and the people, and it reminded me a lot of what you might think 1930s U.S. would be like. Anyway, a very good experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said this was just a simulation for the entire network."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, and we had teams at all the sites, one at Hawaii, one out on ships. What would happen, the simulation people that were with us, when it was time for the spacecraft to pass overhead, they would start a tape, and the tape would play in spacecraft data. Then they would play the part of the astronauts so our CapCom could talk back and forth to them. They had a script that they were following on what to say, what problems they might have, how they would describe the problems, everything. So, quite an experience. I guess we were there a couple of weeks running the sim."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, how did that work with—since you said they would play tapes for what was happening, whereas in later years you were able to use the computers and the computers were able to react to whatever changes you would make or comments that would have, how would that work with the tape running? Would there be times that a decision that the controllers would make that would conflict with what the simulations people were expecting to happen or would things go pretty—I mean, how much information was on the tape, I guess is what I’m asking, and how well would that correspond to the simulation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Your standard telemetry, cabin temperature, cabin pressure, battery voltages, currents, and those values, I think were capable of being tweaked somewhat by the simulation guy. But they were also part of a script, so if some voltage was supposed to fall off at such and such a time, it was already on tape that it was going to fall off at that time. But I do think that the simulations folks had a certain amount of capability to tweak some of the values and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you run a simulation for the mission from start to finish then for this particular—with everyone going out to the different remote sites for—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.743779709328376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, and we had teams at all the sites, one at Hawaii, one out on ships. What would happen, the simulation people that were with us, when it was time for the spacecraft to pass overhead, they would start a tape, and the tape would play in spacecraft data. Then they would play the part of the astronauts so our CapCom could talk back and forth to them. They had a script that they were following on what to say, what problems they might have, how they would describe the problems, everything. So, quite an experience. I guess we were there a couple of weeks running the sim."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, how did that work with—since you said they would play tapes for what was happening, whereas in later years you were able to use the computers and the computers were able to react to whatever changes you would make or comments that would have, how would that work with the tape running? Would there be times that a decision that the controllers would make that would conflict with what the simulations people were expecting to happen or would things go pretty—I mean, how much information was on the tape, I guess is what I’m asking, and how well would that correspond to the simulation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Your standard telemetry, cabin temperature, cabin pressure, battery voltages, currents, and those values, I think were capable of being tweaked somewhat by the simulation guy. But they were also part of a script, so if some voltage was supposed to fall off at such and such a time, it was already on tape that it was going to fall off at that time. But I do think that the simulations folks had a certain amount of capability to tweak some of the values and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you run a simulation for the mission from start to finish then for this particular—with everyone going out to the different remote sites for—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, yes. The mission was only three orbits, so that was over with pretty quick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you run it more than once during that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.82642189925375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Your standard telemetry, cabin temperature, cabin pressure, battery voltages, currents, and those values, I think were capable of being tweaked somewhat by the simulation guy. But they were also part of a script, so if some voltage was supposed to fall off at such and such a time, it was already on tape that it was going to fall off at that time. But I do think that the simulations folks had a certain amount of capability to tweak some of the values and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you run a simulation for the mission from start to finish then for this particular—with everyone going out to the different remote sites for—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, yes. The mission was only three orbits, so that was over with pretty quick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you run it more than once during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes. We would run it day after day after day and different scenarios, of course, each time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said you stayed out there for a couple weeks then doing this."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 18.696024332504166, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, yes. The mission was only three orbits, so that was over with pretty quick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you run it more than once during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes. We would run it day after day after day and different scenarios, of course, each time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said you stayed out there for a couple weeks then doing this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense it was, yes, ten days to two weeks, something like that. Then the way we traded data back then was that we had what was called summary messages. When I at the remote site got ready to send a summary message, there was a button on the console you’d push, and it would strip out the value for cabin pressure right at that instant, cabin temperature, different voltages, just one sample of that one data, strip it out and send it on teletype to all the other remote sites and to the MCC [Mission Control Center] at the Cape. So that’s the way we kept track of what everybody else was reading and some sort of a history of what had happened at the various sites, was it was all done by teletype."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different than today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.106693702782405, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes. We would run it day after day after day and different scenarios, of course, each time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said you stayed out there for a couple weeks then doing this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense it was, yes, ten days to two weeks, something like that. Then the way we traded data back then was that we had what was called summary messages. When I at the remote site got ready to send a summary message, there was a button on the console you’d push, and it would strip out the value for cabin pressure right at that instant, cabin temperature, different voltages, just one sample of that one data, strip it out and send it on teletype to all the other remote sites and to the MCC [Mission Control Center] at the Cape. So that’s the way we kept track of what everybody else was reading and some sort of a history of what had happened at the various sites, was it was all done by teletype."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different than today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Anyway, after NS-1, I guess I did something right. They pulled me off the remote sites and we started getting ready to man up the control center, both in Florida and then, of course, we were building the one here at JSC. So by the time Gemini II rolled around—Gemini II was an unmanned suborbital lob of a Gemini capsule down range in Florida. By the time Gemini II rolled around, we had the capability here in Houston to monitor the flights, although the control center hadn’t really been wrung out. So we sent one team to Florida to actually control it, and another team, and I was part of the team that stayed here and wrung out the control center, did that for Gemini II.\\n\\n Then the first Gemini flight, Gemini III, we did the same thing. We had the actual controlling team was in Florida, but we had a full team here in Houston in the control center. Then by the time Gemini IV rolled around, we were totally in Houston. We had closed down the control center in Florida, and everybody was totally here by then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at this point you were manning the EECOM console?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.181103336768402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Anyway, after NS-1, I guess I did something right. They pulled me off the remote sites and we started getting ready to man up the control center, both in Florida and then, of course, we were building the one here at JSC. So by the time Gemini II rolled around—Gemini II was an unmanned suborbital lob of a Gemini capsule down range in Florida. By the time Gemini II rolled around, we had the capability here in Houston to monitor the flights, although the control center hadn’t really been wrung out. So we sent one team to Florida to actually control it, and another team, and I was part of the team that stayed here and wrung out the control center, did that for Gemini II.\\n\\n Then the first Gemini flight, Gemini III, we did the same thing. We had the actual controlling team was in Florida, but we had a full team here in Houston in the control center. Then by the time Gemini IV rolled around, we were totally in Houston. We had closed down the control center in Florida, and everybody was totally here by then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at this point you were manning the EECOM console?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The Gemini systems were split into two portions. It had GNC—guidance, navigation and control—and then sort of everything else was the EECOM. EECOM stood for electrical, environmental, and communications. But we basically had all the systems that didn’t have anything to do with guidance or navigation or controls."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is quite a few systems."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you become—leading up to this point and holding such a role, how did you become so familiar with all of the different spacecraft systems to then be able to monitor them so carefully during the flights? What was your training like up until—you mentioned the simulation, obviously going out to the remote site and going through things very detailed there, but how did you gain that familiarity with the spacecraft systems itself?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.038399181195555, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you become—leading up to this point and holding such a role, how did you become so familiar with all of the different spacecraft systems to then be able to monitor them so carefully during the flights? What was your training like up until—you mentioned the simulation, obviously going out to the remote site and going through things very detailed there, but how did you gain that familiarity with the spacecraft systems itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had some classes, that I recall, some training classes. We did an awful lot of just training on our own. We drew systems handbooks, they were called. They were schematics that we needed in order to troubleshoot the systems onboard, and we’d draw these ourselves using the vendor schematics, and put them in our own book and publish them. So that really helps you learn the systems an awful lot that way.\\n\\n We had some McDonnell Douglas people also assigned to our office. They were working here with us. So they were very, very helpful in any kind of questions you had out of the company that you needed about the spacecraft or whatever. The guys were good about getting those. We wrote mission rules that said for loss of this, you’ll do that. In order to write that rule, you had to go back and go through the schematics and study and say, well, what could cause you to lose that certain function.\\n\\n But there was not the formal training that we have nowadays. We didn’t have the certification that’s now required. That came later. I guess in Apollo is when we started certifying people. We had the simulations over and over and over again with the guys like [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.]. Kraft could ask questions that would make you go study and find things out. Great guy. Great guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that is a good way to learn is to going out and looking for it rather—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—than just having somebody—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.709332423550617, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had some classes, that I recall, some training classes. We did an awful lot of just training on our own. We drew systems handbooks, they were called. They were schematics that we needed in order to troubleshoot the systems onboard, and we’d draw these ourselves using the vendor schematics, and put them in our own book and publish them. So that really helps you learn the systems an awful lot that way.\\n\\n We had some McDonnell Douglas people also assigned to our office. They were working here with us. So they were very, very helpful in any kind of questions you had out of the company that you needed about the spacecraft or whatever. The guys were good about getting those. We wrote mission rules that said for loss of this, you’ll do that. In order to write that rule, you had to go back and go through the schematics and study and say, well, what could cause you to lose that certain function.\\n\\n But there was not the formal training that we have nowadays. We didn’t have the certification that’s now required. That came later. I guess in Apollo is when we started certifying people. We had the simulations over and over and over again with the guys like [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.]. Kraft could ask questions that would make you go study and find things out. Great guy. Great guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that is a good way to learn is to going out and looking for it rather—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—than just having somebody—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—tell you real quickly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.56592491505624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—than just having somebody—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—tell you real quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. There was an awful lot of “what if” games played up and down the halls. If you stumbled across something, a quirky thing on maybe how a system worked or something, you were anxious to go running down the hall and tell all your buddies, “Hey, look at this,” and “What do you think of this?” There was an awful lot of that that went on, so we exchanged a lot of ideas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very important part of it is all the systems were so closely integrated that you had to share that information."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.6288054611736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—tell you real quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. There was an awful lot of “what if” games played up and down the halls. If you stumbled across something, a quirky thing on maybe how a system worked or something, you were anxious to go running down the hall and tell all your buddies, “Hey, look at this,” and “What do you think of this?” There was an awful lot of that that went on, so we exchanged a lot of ideas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very important part of it is all the systems were so closely integrated that you had to share that information."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That was one of the neat things especially about the electrical system, because it touched all the other systems. The cooling system, the same way, it touched all the other systems, so, yes, that forced you to not only learn your systems, but also learn a little bit about everybody else’s. So that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned simulation after simulation, that that was a very key part of all of this. As you were gearing up, as the control center was coming on line for Gemini II, Gemini III, Gemini IV, how many simulations would you run before a mission, or did it vary depending on what was happening for that mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.912105507621725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That was one of the neat things especially about the electrical system, because it touched all the other systems. The cooling system, the same way, it touched all the other systems, so, yes, that forced you to not only learn your systems, but also learn a little bit about everybody else’s. So that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned simulation after simulation, that that was a very key part of all of this. As you were gearing up, as the control center was coming on line for Gemini II, Gemini III, Gemini IV, how many simulations would you run before a mission, or did it vary depending on what was happening for that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How many would we run for a mission. I don’t know. That would be hard to say. I would guess—I don’t know. Let me talk on here a little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would tend to simulate mission phases like ascent, launch. An ascent sim could be about ten minutes long. You’d run one, and you’d debrief that, and then you’d turn the equipment around and run another one. You just ran ascent sims one after the other after the other. So you could probably get at least a dozen ascent sims in in a day. So now maybe tomorrow you would run entry sims. So you tended to simulate the different phases.\\n\\n Of course, with the shorter missions with like the three days that we were—is it three days or three orbits? I guess three orbits that we were doing on Gemini, the first one anyway, those you’d run—I don’t recall. I’m sure we’d run—I don’t recall ever doing more than one a day, but we may have. We may have. Yes, I don’t recall how we’d do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s all right. Certainly you were, as you said, doing a number of different ones at different times with the different phases."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 22.12456167513525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How many would we run for a mission. I don’t know. That would be hard to say. I would guess—I don’t know. Let me talk on here a little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would tend to simulate mission phases like ascent, launch. An ascent sim could be about ten minutes long. You’d run one, and you’d debrief that, and then you’d turn the equipment around and run another one. You just ran ascent sims one after the other after the other. So you could probably get at least a dozen ascent sims in in a day. So now maybe tomorrow you would run entry sims. So you tended to simulate the different phases.\\n\\n Of course, with the shorter missions with like the three days that we were—is it three days or three orbits? I guess three orbits that we were doing on Gemini, the first one anyway, those you’d run—I don’t recall. I’m sure we’d run—I don’t recall ever doing more than one a day, but we may have. We may have. Yes, I don’t recall how we’d do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s all right. Certainly you were, as you said, doing a number of different ones at different times with the different phases."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’d obviously be going between doing simulations and then doing some of this other training and evaluating and looking at mission rules during times that you weren’t doing simulations or weren’t actually flying a mission. Can you think of about how many days out of the week, maybe, that you would be or did it all just kind of blend together, that you would just move from one to the other?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.2495129723725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would tend to simulate mission phases like ascent, launch. An ascent sim could be about ten minutes long. You’d run one, and you’d debrief that, and then you’d turn the equipment around and run another one. You just ran ascent sims one after the other after the other. So you could probably get at least a dozen ascent sims in in a day. So now maybe tomorrow you would run entry sims. So you tended to simulate the different phases.\\n\\n Of course, with the shorter missions with like the three days that we were—is it three days or three orbits? I guess three orbits that we were doing on Gemini, the first one anyway, those you’d run—I don’t recall. I’m sure we’d run—I don’t recall ever doing more than one a day, but we may have. We may have. Yes, I don’t recall how we’d do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s all right. Certainly you were, as you said, doing a number of different ones at different times with the different phases."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’d obviously be going between doing simulations and then doing some of this other training and evaluating and looking at mission rules during times that you weren’t doing simulations or weren’t actually flying a mission. Can you think of about how many days out of the week, maybe, that you would be or did it all just kind of blend together, that you would just move from one to the other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense is it would all sort of blend together. Like there might be a couple of EECOMs, and maybe I’d go run sims in the morning and John [W.] Aaron or somebody would come run them in the afternoon or something to that effect. Or maybe one of us would sit there and watch the other one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were trading off in all these?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 23.610569969302777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’d obviously be going between doing simulations and then doing some of this other training and evaluating and looking at mission rules during times that you weren’t doing simulations or weren’t actually flying a mission. Can you think of about how many days out of the week, maybe, that you would be or did it all just kind of blend together, that you would just move from one to the other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense is it would all sort of blend together. Like there might be a couple of EECOMs, and maybe I’d go run sims in the morning and John [W.] Aaron or somebody would come run them in the afternoon or something to that effect. Or maybe one of us would sit there and watch the other one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were trading off in all these?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Well, you were building up to talk about Gemini IV, as you had worked your way up through Gemini II and III and the center coming on line and Gemini IV was the first that was actually run full out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.567299965891973, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense is it would all sort of blend together. Like there might be a couple of EECOMs, and maybe I’d go run sims in the morning and John [W.] Aaron or somebody would come run them in the afternoon or something to that effect. Or maybe one of us would sit there and watch the other one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were trading off in all these?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Well, you were building up to talk about Gemini IV, as you had worked your way up through Gemini II and III and the center coming on line and Gemini IV was the first that was actually run full out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Gemini IV was the first that was totally run here out of Houston. We had wrung out the control center as best we could. We’d do everything we could think of to try and bring it to its knees, pushing three or four command buttons all at the same time and stuff, just anything we could to try and mess it up. We thought we’d given it a pretty good checking out.\\n\\n Gemini IV was our first EVA [extravehicular activity] flight. That’s when Ed [Edward H.] White [II] went outside. Gemini V then was first long-duration flight. Then came VII, which was real long. We rendezvoused with Gemini VI on that one, called it Gemini 76. Gemini VI was supposed to rendezvous with an Agena, and the Agena went in the water, if I recall. So we then launched VI, and we had VII already up there. We launched VI up, and the two of them rendezvoused together—came into close contact, didn’t actually touch or anything, but came into close contact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that work from a monitoring standpoint, especially for your job? Here you were looking at so many of the systems of the spacecraft and you had two of them up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.798765385311343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s a good point. As I recall, we only had the capability of really looking at one in real time. So we would have our history data, I guess, from one spacecraft and our real-time data from another one. But I don’t think we could look at both of them in real time at the same time. We may have split it up to where—I don’t know. I can’t remember if we alternated among remote sites like said, “Okay, Corpus Christi, you look at VI,” and, “Guaymas, Mexico, you look at VII,” or how we did that. But I do recall out here in Houston we could only look at one of them in real time.\\n\\n We could swap off from that. We could look at one maybe this pass and the next pass look at the other one. We could see it live here in Houston. From the time it came as they were coming up the coast, we could see it as it came down over Corpus and then all the way across the lower part of the U.S. and out in the Caribbean, some of the tracking stations out there, we could still get data back into here. But then we’d lose them again, and we’d have to wait till they came up over another remote site to get our summary message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So still definitely a growing process for the network and monitoring the spacecraft."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obvious for Apollo there would later be that capability to look at both spacecraft live at the same time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And then of course as we went to the Moon and you got out a given number of miles, then one of the deep space sites always had them, the site of Madrid [Spain] or the one in Goldstone out in California or the one in Australia. I can’t think its name right, now, but Canberra, maybe. One of those sites would always see, always had the spacecraft in sight when we were on our way out to the Moon. So that was nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different than what you’ve just been describing for Gemini."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 17.554183761457047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obvious for Apollo there would later be that capability to look at both spacecraft live at the same time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And then of course as we went to the Moon and you got out a given number of miles, then one of the deep space sites always had them, the site of Madrid [Spain] or the one in Goldstone out in California or the one in Australia. I can’t think its name right, now, but Canberra, maybe. One of those sites would always see, always had the spacecraft in sight when we were on our way out to the Moon. So that was nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different than what you’ve just been describing for Gemini."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back a little bit to the Gemini IV mission, you mentioned that it was the first EVA. At what point did you learn that the EVA was actually going to be flown on this mission, and how did that tie in with your simulations, and actually how closely did you as an EECOM were you involved with the EVA aspect of things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.037926781675122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t. I don’t. It may have been then that we were consolidating the engineering support for the missions under one entity or organization—and we’ll talk about this later on when we talk about SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis Room]—but where flight controllers could go to pick the brains of the engineers who actually designed and tested all this equipment. So it may be that the Crew Systems guy went off then to be a part of that. But I sure don’t recall them in later Gemini. I hadn’t thought about that before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s certainly interesting because it does sound like they served a good role at least for the first ones giving that. Although I guess with the back rooms and the SPAN and the MER [Mission Evaluation Room], as we’ll talk about, there was that support still so they hopefully were in there and giving that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "SPAN back in those days was totally run by the contractor, by McDonnell Douglas. In fact, some very high, high-powered McDonnell Douglas people would come down and man the console in the back and support us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Interesting. We’ve talked about Gemini 76 now, which was a joint mission, which certainly was interesting in that aspect of having the two spacecraft up and the one going such a long duration."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then began to get into the later Gemini missions where they were doing EVAs more regularly and discovering the challenges of doing that, where they were having difficulties working, holding their bodies steady while they were trying to do a task. Again from your standpoint as an EECOM, where you were monitoring these systems and helping monitor what was going on with the crew, what was your involvement as they were having these difficulties, and what were the discussions like in the control room over that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.486585312972357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "SPAN back in those days was totally run by the contractor, by McDonnell Douglas. In fact, some very high, high-powered McDonnell Douglas people would come down and man the console in the back and support us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Interesting. We’ve talked about Gemini 76 now, which was a joint mission, which certainly was interesting in that aspect of having the two spacecraft up and the one going such a long duration."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then began to get into the later Gemini missions where they were doing EVAs more regularly and discovering the challenges of doing that, where they were having difficulties working, holding their bodies steady while they were trying to do a task. Again from your standpoint as an EECOM, where you were monitoring these systems and helping monitor what was going on with the crew, what was your involvement as they were having these difficulties, and what were the discussions like in the control room over that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t recall a lot of telemetry on the EVAs. I’m sure the doctors had probably heart rates, but I don’t recall that we had very much telemetry. I’m sure we had a suit pressure maybe and not much else. So most of the discussions were along human factors lines. It was almost a medical kind of a thing, rather than a systems kind of a thing, that I recall anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That makes sense."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.096205903302618, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then began to get into the later Gemini missions where they were doing EVAs more regularly and discovering the challenges of doing that, where they were having difficulties working, holding their bodies steady while they were trying to do a task. Again from your standpoint as an EECOM, where you were monitoring these systems and helping monitor what was going on with the crew, what was your involvement as they were having these difficulties, and what were the discussions like in the control room over that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t recall a lot of telemetry on the EVAs. I’m sure the doctors had probably heart rates, but I don’t recall that we had very much telemetry. I’m sure we had a suit pressure maybe and not much else. So most of the discussions were along human factors lines. It was almost a medical kind of a thing, rather than a systems kind of a thing, that I recall anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That makes sense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because certainly what they were experiencing was them, themselves, rather than the equipment."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.8846732258918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t recall a lot of telemetry on the EVAs. I’m sure the doctors had probably heart rates, but I don’t recall that we had very much telemetry. I’m sure we had a suit pressure maybe and not much else. So most of the discussions were along human factors lines. It was almost a medical kind of a thing, rather than a systems kind of a thing, that I recall anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That makes sense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because certainly what they were experiencing was them, themselves, rather than the equipment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, do you have any particular thoughts on some of the later Gemini missions—Gemini VIII which had to reenter early, or IX, X, XI, and XII, they obviously did get all the EVA going well. Do you have any thoughts from those or any experiences that you’d like to comment on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.760748028768663, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because certainly what they were experiencing was them, themselves, rather than the equipment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, do you have any particular thoughts on some of the later Gemini missions—Gemini VIII which had to reenter early, or IX, X, XI, and XII, they obviously did get all the EVA going well. Do you have any thoughts from those or any experiences that you’d like to comment on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gemini VIII was the one that we had to enter early. It was out over the Pacific, if I recall. We had docked with the Agena, and we were, I guess, afraid of the Agena. We were scared to death of it. So when the whole stack started tumbling, everybody’s first thought was that it’s the Agena. Turns out it was Gemini that was doing it, and the Agena was trying to hold it still. But they turned off the Agena, and then they really went wild. But anyway, got the thing under control and got them back, but that was a close call. It didn’t really involve any of our systems.\\n\\n Here again, we were seeing summary messages from these remote sites, so you could hear the voice when a crew was over a site, but to look at the telemetry and see what was going on, we just didn’t have that capability back then, at least not back here in Houston. Now, the people at the remote site could see it when it came over, but we got to see the summary message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned an interesting point there, that everyone was unsure about the Agena, and it was something new that hadn’t been done before, and there had been some problems leading up, but the fact that you mention that specifically, what do you recall about the concerns regarding the Agena?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.845275587520735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, do you have any particular thoughts on some of the later Gemini missions—Gemini VIII which had to reenter early, or IX, X, XI, and XII, they obviously did get all the EVA going well. Do you have any thoughts from those or any experiences that you’d like to comment on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gemini VIII was the one that we had to enter early. It was out over the Pacific, if I recall. We had docked with the Agena, and we were, I guess, afraid of the Agena. We were scared to death of it. So when the whole stack started tumbling, everybody’s first thought was that it’s the Agena. Turns out it was Gemini that was doing it, and the Agena was trying to hold it still. But they turned off the Agena, and then they really went wild. But anyway, got the thing under control and got them back, but that was a close call. It didn’t really involve any of our systems.\\n\\n Here again, we were seeing summary messages from these remote sites, so you could hear the voice when a crew was over a site, but to look at the telemetry and see what was going on, we just didn’t have that capability back then, at least not back here in Houston. Now, the people at the remote site could see it when it came over, but we got to see the summary message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned an interesting point there, that everyone was unsure about the Agena, and it was something new that hadn’t been done before, and there had been some problems leading up, but the fact that you mention that specifically, what do you recall about the concerns regarding the Agena?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing specific, and I’m not even sure if I’m telling you what I recall from back then or what I’ve since learned that our thought process was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Well, we’ve heard the same before—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.161417319467482, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gemini VIII was the one that we had to enter early. It was out over the Pacific, if I recall. We had docked with the Agena, and we were, I guess, afraid of the Agena. We were scared to death of it. So when the whole stack started tumbling, everybody’s first thought was that it’s the Agena. Turns out it was Gemini that was doing it, and the Agena was trying to hold it still. But they turned off the Agena, and then they really went wild. But anyway, got the thing under control and got them back, but that was a close call. It didn’t really involve any of our systems.\\n\\n Here again, we were seeing summary messages from these remote sites, so you could hear the voice when a crew was over a site, but to look at the telemetry and see what was going on, we just didn’t have that capability back then, at least not back here in Houston. Now, the people at the remote site could see it when it came over, but we got to see the summary message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned an interesting point there, that everyone was unsure about the Agena, and it was something new that hadn’t been done before, and there had been some problems leading up, but the fact that you mention that specifically, what do you recall about the concerns regarding the Agena?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing specific, and I’m not even sure if I’m telling you what I recall from back then or what I’ve since learned that our thought process was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Well, we’ve heard the same before—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. I don’t doubt that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—that there was concern about it, as we’ve talked to a few people and we’ve been able to talk to some people that specifically worked on the Agena systems, too, so—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 25.734908132741648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing specific, and I’m not even sure if I’m telling you what I recall from back then or what I’ve since learned that our thought process was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Well, we’ve heard the same before—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. I don’t doubt that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—that there was concern about it, as we’ve talked to a few people and we’ve been able to talk to some people that specifically worked on the Agena systems, too, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—it’s been interesting. But, yes, you’re not the only one that’s had that thought. Well, as you were beginning to move from Gemini into Apollo, what was the transition process like? What was your involvement in getting the control center lined up for this new ability, to be able to monitor two spacecraft, or were you still just really focused on the missions and were other people taking care of that transition?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.36408411449586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—it’s been interesting. But, yes, you’re not the only one that’s had that thought. Well, as you were beginning to move from Gemini into Apollo, what was the transition process like? What was your involvement in getting the control center lined up for this new ability, to be able to monitor two spacecraft, or were you still just really focused on the missions and were other people taking care of that transition?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "While we were flying Gemini, there was another group just like us that were getting ready for Apollo. In fact, I remember one of the choices I was given when I came to work was Gemini or Apollo, and I picked Gemini, probably because it was the active thing going right now, and I could see that’s where the action was going to be for a while.\\n\\n As it turned out, I’m sure glad I did, because as we started winding down Gemini and getting ready to go to Apollo, the folks that had been working Apollo all this time, they had the systems knowledge, but my sense was back then that we had the operations knowledge, all this experience that we had gained. I just remember thinking at the time that, to me, was much more valuable than the knowledge of the spacecraft systems that those folks had. So I was glad that I’d made that choice, or if I didn’t make it, I was glad somebody had pointed me in that direction.\\n\\n But as we got into Apollo, a lot of the Agena folks merged into the lunar module, the LM organization, and the Gemini folks went to the CSM [command and service module]. I guess Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks was the branch chief back then in early Apollo, and Arnie [Arnold D. Aldrich] was the section head of CSM, and I guess Jim [James E.] Hannigan maybe had the section of LM controllers, LM systems people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point was the decision made to create the new controller positions for the lunar module? I believe it was—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "TELMU [Telemetry and EVA Systems Engineer]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—TELMU and then—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.071204571662065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While we were flying Gemini, there was another group just like us that were getting ready for Apollo. In fact, I remember one of the choices I was given when I came to work was Gemini or Apollo, and I picked Gemini, probably because it was the active thing going right now, and I could see that’s where the action was going to be for a while.\\n\\n As it turned out, I’m sure glad I did, because as we started winding down Gemini and getting ready to go to Apollo, the folks that had been working Apollo all this time, they had the systems knowledge, but my sense was back then that we had the operations knowledge, all this experience that we had gained. I just remember thinking at the time that, to me, was much more valuable than the knowledge of the spacecraft systems that those folks had. So I was glad that I’d made that choice, or if I didn’t make it, I was glad somebody had pointed me in that direction.\\n\\n But as we got into Apollo, a lot of the Agena folks merged into the lunar module, the LM organization, and the Gemini folks went to the CSM [command and service module]. I guess Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks was the branch chief back then in early Apollo, and Arnie [Arnold D. Aldrich] was the section head of CSM, and I guess Jim [James E.] Hannigan maybe had the section of LM controllers, LM systems people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point was the decision made to create the new controller positions for the lunar module? I believe it was—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "TELMU [Telemetry and EVA Systems Engineer]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—TELMU and then—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[LM] Control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Was that about this time frame?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.31989653177238, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, my sense is they were always there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just like you had EECOM and GNC on the CSM side, then you had TELMU and Control on the LM side."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yes, I think they came—somebody saw that that split had worked pretty well in Gemini and was working pretty well in early Apollo, so I think it was the natural thing to do, to split it that way with the LM also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something rather than having to try to have one person monitoring all the systems for both."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 35.91099614641375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just like you had EECOM and GNC on the CSM side, then you had TELMU and Control on the LM side."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yes, I think they came—somebody saw that that split had worked pretty well in Gemini and was working pretty well in early Apollo, so I think it was the natural thing to do, to split it that way with the LM also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something rather than having to try to have one person monitoring all the systems for both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That just would have been too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as you came into Apollo then, you had been working Gemini, as you said, and other people had been getting familiar with the Apollo systems, but then you still had that operations knowledge from Gemini that needed to translate over into Apollo. At what point then did you begin doing simulations for Apollo? Was it after Gemini XII in your case that you began to get into that, or did you even start a little bit before that time frame?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.678884607126392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yes, I think they came—somebody saw that that split had worked pretty well in Gemini and was working pretty well in early Apollo, so I think it was the natural thing to do, to split it that way with the LM also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something rather than having to try to have one person monitoring all the systems for both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That just would have been too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as you came into Apollo then, you had been working Gemini, as you said, and other people had been getting familiar with the Apollo systems, but then you still had that operations knowledge from Gemini that needed to translate over into Apollo. At what point then did you begin doing simulations for Apollo? Was it after Gemini XII in your case that you began to get into that, or did you even start a little bit before that time frame?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our lead EECOM guy, a fellow by the name of Dick Glover, my sense is that as we wound down Gemini, that probably Dick didn’t fly the last few Gemini missions, that he went off to do Apollo stuff. So, yes, we continued on with the Gemini, myself, John Aaron, Merlin [Walter M.] Merritt. We were the EECOMs on the last few Gemini missions. My sense is that Glover was off doing the Apollo thing. I think that’s probably the way it happened. He was off getting that ready.\\n\\n The McDAC [McDonnell Aircraft Company] people that I mentioned that had worked with us on Gemini, we had a similar contingent working for Rockwell [North American Rockwell Corp.]. The lunar module side of the house had a contingent from Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corp.]. The guys were in the process of building handbooks and what have you and writing mission rules already and stuff, so Glover went off to head up that effort, and we finished up Gemini along with sticking our nose in the Apollo stuff every now. But, yes, we concentrated on the latter part of the Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then just transitioned right into Apollo."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.754316230140436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That just would have been too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as you came into Apollo then, you had been working Gemini, as you said, and other people had been getting familiar with the Apollo systems, but then you still had that operations knowledge from Gemini that needed to translate over into Apollo. At what point then did you begin doing simulations for Apollo? Was it after Gemini XII in your case that you began to get into that, or did you even start a little bit before that time frame?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our lead EECOM guy, a fellow by the name of Dick Glover, my sense is that as we wound down Gemini, that probably Dick didn’t fly the last few Gemini missions, that he went off to do Apollo stuff. So, yes, we continued on with the Gemini, myself, John Aaron, Merlin [Walter M.] Merritt. We were the EECOMs on the last few Gemini missions. My sense is that Glover was off doing the Apollo thing. I think that’s probably the way it happened. He was off getting that ready.\\n\\n The McDAC [McDonnell Aircraft Company] people that I mentioned that had worked with us on Gemini, we had a similar contingent working for Rockwell [North American Rockwell Corp.]. The lunar module side of the house had a contingent from Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corp.]. The guys were in the process of building handbooks and what have you and writing mission rules already and stuff, so Glover went off to head up that effort, and we finished up Gemini along with sticking our nose in the Apollo stuff every now. But, yes, we concentrated on the latter part of the Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then just transitioned right into Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We came across in our research a listing for an NS-2 simulation, for that seemed to be Apollo oriented. Was this similar to the one that you had mentioned earlier with the whole network around the world, or do you recall it as a specific event?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 34.171462477933815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our lead EECOM guy, a fellow by the name of Dick Glover, my sense is that as we wound down Gemini, that probably Dick didn’t fly the last few Gemini missions, that he went off to do Apollo stuff. So, yes, we continued on with the Gemini, myself, John Aaron, Merlin [Walter M.] Merritt. We were the EECOMs on the last few Gemini missions. My sense is that Glover was off doing the Apollo thing. I think that’s probably the way it happened. He was off getting that ready.\\n\\n The McDAC [McDonnell Aircraft Company] people that I mentioned that had worked with us on Gemini, we had a similar contingent working for Rockwell [North American Rockwell Corp.]. The lunar module side of the house had a contingent from Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corp.]. The guys were in the process of building handbooks and what have you and writing mission rules already and stuff, so Glover went off to head up that effort, and we finished up Gemini along with sticking our nose in the Apollo stuff every now. But, yes, we concentrated on the latter part of the Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then just transitioned right into Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We came across in our research a listing for an NS-2 simulation, for that seemed to be Apollo oriented. Was this similar to the one that you had mentioned earlier with the whole network around the world, or do you recall it as a specific event?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m sure it was. I’m sure it was probably for Apollo what NS-1 was for Gemini, to wring out the network, make sure it was ready. It didn’t stick in my mind like NS-1 since I did get to go to Australia before. But I’m sure that’s what it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, moving into Apollo, the initial plan was for a manned mission to go up first, which was Apollo 1, and unfortunately the fire occurred with that. At what point did you learn about the fire, and what then was your role in helping in the recovery process there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.097454802948604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, then I recall—seems like almost weekly trips to Downey [California] as they redesigned the spacecraft. I remember Aaron Cohen. That’s probably where I got to know Aaron best, being very actively involved in that.\\n\\n From a control center-wise, I don’t recall that we changed too much of anything of our procedures or operations or anything. Much, much more aware of the dangers of fire. Of course, the whole system became much more aware of the kind of stuff that we were putting in that spacecraft and how it would react to a 100 percent oxygen. I heard at some point, and I can’t even tell you if it’s true or not, but I think it was the glue that was used to put the Velcro on the walls that, mixed in that pure oxygen like it was, or surrounded in pure oxygen like it was, that the amount of energy to ignite that was just nothing almost. Somebody described it as the amount of energy it would take to tear a piece of paper. Like I say, I don’t know if that was true or not, but there was all sorts of awareness of what was going into the spacecraft. But procedure-wise, I don’t recall that we changed much of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mostly spacecraft and materials changes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during the recovery process, as you mentioned, you were going down to Downey, helping with that. What were you specifically looking at when you would go on those trips to Downey? Were you dealing with some of these materials processes, or were you looking for the systems sides of things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would have been looking at the systems side. I can’t recall any specific changes that were made in the systems because of fire. I’m sure there were some."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like running the wires differently was one of the concerns."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 34.55272755883178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during the recovery process, as you mentioned, you were going down to Downey, helping with that. What were you specifically looking at when you would go on those trips to Downey? Were you dealing with some of these materials processes, or were you looking for the systems sides of things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would have been looking at the systems side. I can’t recall any specific changes that were made in the systems because of fire. I’m sure there were some."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like running the wires differently was one of the concerns."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There could have been some of that. From a systems standpoint, whether a wire ran down this side of the spacecraft or whether it ran down that side of the spacecraft, that wouldn’t have affected us one way or the other. So I don’t recall a lot of changes. Material-wise, like we talked about, there was a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the program moved back into an operational status, the Saturn V was still being tested during this time frame, but once the command module was back up and running ready to go, there were some unmanned flights with that. Did you man the console for some of these? I think you might have been on console for at least Apollo 6, which was the one that had some interesting booster problems."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.28080839870198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would have been looking at the systems side. I can’t recall any specific changes that were made in the systems because of fire. I’m sure there were some."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like running the wires differently was one of the concerns."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There could have been some of that. From a systems standpoint, whether a wire ran down this side of the spacecraft or whether it ran down that side of the spacecraft, that wouldn’t have affected us one way or the other. So I don’t recall a lot of changes. Material-wise, like we talked about, there was a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the program moved back into an operational status, the Saturn V was still being tested during this time frame, but once the command module was back up and running ready to go, there were some unmanned flights with that. Did you man the console for some of these? I think you might have been on console for at least Apollo 6, which was the one that had some interesting booster problems."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had the fire, and then we had Apollo 501 and 502, which were S-IC, the first one of the big stack. I don’t recall Apollo 6."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 6, it was the full stack, the Saturn V, and it experienced the problems with the engines where it had some severe pogo problems and then actually two of the engines dropped out among the stages and ended up thrusting backwards and all sorts of interesting little events. I don’t recall if you were actually on the console or not during that—probably not, if it’s not coming to mind."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 41.58124493666911, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had the fire, and then we had Apollo 501 and 502, which were S-IC, the first one of the big stack. I don’t recall Apollo 6."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 6, it was the full stack, the Saturn V, and it experienced the problems with the engines where it had some severe pogo problems and then actually two of the engines dropped out among the stages and ended up thrusting backwards and all sorts of interesting little events. I don’t recall if you were actually on the console or not during that—probably not, if it’s not coming to mind."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that would have been Apollo. When you said it was the whole stack, it had to be what we called 501 or 502. It obviously had an Apollo designation, but I’m not familiar, I don’t recall that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first manned one, I guess, was 204. That was the booster number. I guess we called it Apollo 7. That was [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.], [R. Walter] Cunningham, and [Donn F.] Eisele."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working that mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.113873292932062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were power plays, I guess that’s what you’d call them, for lack of a better word. I first saw it back at NS-1 at Carnarvon. There was some power plays going on on who was going to run the site. Was the astronaut out there going to run the site or was the CapCom that was out there going to—and the CapCom back then, it’s not like the CapCom in Shuttle today. The CapCom in Shuttle today is an astronaut. Back then the CapComs were flight controllers just out of the Flight Control Division. So there was some political infighting going on as to who was actually going to run the site back then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was that one resolved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The CapComs from flight control ran the site, and the other guys were there as help, observers, what have you. But there was no doubt the CapCom from Flight Division ran the site.\\n\\n So there was that way back years ago, and that thing that happened on Apollo 7. But my sense is that Kraft put the word out and said, “This is the way it’s going to be,” and that’s the way it was. I mean, when he spoke, the people listened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, and he and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton obviously worked very closely together from both angles, from the flight controllers as well as the astronaut office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’m sure they did. Yes. But there was no doubt who was in charge: Chris. Chris was in charge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somebody definitely has to be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.126525881035626, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The CapComs from flight control ran the site, and the other guys were there as help, observers, what have you. But there was no doubt the CapCom from Flight Division ran the site.\\n\\n So there was that way back years ago, and that thing that happened on Apollo 7. But my sense is that Kraft put the word out and said, “This is the way it’s going to be,” and that’s the way it was. I mean, when he spoke, the people listened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, and he and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton obviously worked very closely together from both angles, from the flight controllers as well as the astronaut office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’m sure they did. Yes. But there was no doubt who was in charge: Chris. Chris was in charge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somebody definitely has to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You bet, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you talked about Apollo 7 and that you moved off of the console so that you could work Apollo 8, which was obviously a very challenging mission, a very bold step. What were your thoughts when they called you into the office and said, “Hey, let’s go to the Moon on this flight”?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.029473201150694, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’m sure they did. Yes. But there was no doubt who was in charge: Chris. Chris was in charge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somebody definitely has to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You bet, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you talked about Apollo 7 and that you moved off of the console so that you could work Apollo 8, which was obviously a very challenging mission, a very bold step. What were your thoughts when they called you into the office and said, “Hey, let’s go to the Moon on this flight”?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, like I say, Arnie and I had walked over to Kraft’s office, and we were sitting up in Kraft’s office, and we started talking about it. It was just being thrown out. Can anybody give us a good reason why we can’t pull this off? From an EECOM standpoint, I couldn’t say, “No, we’re not ready because of this.” So my sense is, we walked away from Chris’ office that afternoon with the idea that, yes, we’re going to do this unless somebody can come up with a real good reason why we shouldn’t or why we can’t.\\n\\n I always thought it’s the best mission we ever did. Of course, that’s from a CSM standpoint. We did our thing then. We didn’t need the lunar module along. Worked very, very close with Bill [William A.] Anders. Bill was the [LM] pilot on this one. He told John Aaron and I both that he named a crater for us on the back. I’ll never see it, of course. [Laughs] But Bill was a great guy. Doing that thing at Christmastime, when he read from the Bible, that was—I’m not sure there was a dry eye in the whole control center that night. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very, very moving."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 19.49317665165477, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense is we were very much aware of what they were doing, or at least aware of what they were announcing they were doing. There was no pressure, but my sense also is that everybody on that team wanted to beat them. I’m not sure it’s anything anybody ever talked about, but I think it was there. At least in my mind it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Internal awareness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Because I can remember one splashdown party, and I guess it was Apollo 8, we had moved from the Singing Wheel to over at the Flintlock, but I think it must have been John Aaron, John and myself were standing downstairs, just standing looking out the window and hadn’t even gone upstairs. Somebody came by and said, “What are you guys doing? Why aren’t you upstairs?”\\n\\n We said, “We’re just standing here thinking how proud we are to be Americans.”\\n\\n So it was something at least I think we all felt in the back of our mind. There was no pressure or anything like that, though. I can’t recall any of the bosses ever saying we’ve got to do this by such and such a time because the Russians are moving ahead, or anything like that. It was just something we felt we wanted to do, and we’re proud to have done it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly something to be very proud of."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much were you aware of at this time of events that were going on in the rest of the world? 1968 was a very turbulent year, and here Apollo 8 was a very good ending for it, very positive. But were you so caught up in the job that you weren’t as tuned in to what was going on, or was that a motivating factor for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.485403273647863, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much were you aware of at this time of events that were going on in the rest of the world? 1968 was a very turbulent year, and here Apollo 8 was a very good ending for it, very positive. But were you so caught up in the job that you weren’t as tuned in to what was going on, or was that a motivating factor for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t a factor. You knew it was going on. I read some point Steve [Stephen G.] Bales had said that he recalled going over from the control center to Building One at one point and seeing a little group of hippies or something out around the duck ponds. I don’t know if they were protesting or just singing songs or whatever. I don’t recall ever seeing any of that.\\n\\n But you were aware that the protests were going on, because we watched the news at night. But, I mean, I was then and still am a staunch conservative, voted for Barry Goldwater. Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin, who later became center director, Gerry was a CSM GNC and we had become very good friends. Gerry’s twin brother, Larry, was a forward air controller in Vietnam. Larry’s wife, Judy, was living here in Clear Lake and pregnant at the time. Larry is a very, very good writer, and Larry would write letters home to Judy, and then I can remember getting together over at the Griffin’s house and reading Larry’s letters telling us all about the war or his version of the war, what he saw.\\n\\n So we were aware it was going on. We were aware there were protests, but we pretty much just sort of had our blinders on, doing our own thing, I guess is the way I’d describe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly had an important job to be doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned on Apollo 8 the reading from Genesis. But what were you thoughts when they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting for that burn for them enter lunar orbit? Was that a nervous time or was that—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.650448081830959, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t a factor. You knew it was going on. I read some point Steve [Stephen G.] Bales had said that he recalled going over from the control center to Building One at one point and seeing a little group of hippies or something out around the duck ponds. I don’t know if they were protesting or just singing songs or whatever. I don’t recall ever seeing any of that.\\n\\n But you were aware that the protests were going on, because we watched the news at night. But, I mean, I was then and still am a staunch conservative, voted for Barry Goldwater. Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin, who later became center director, Gerry was a CSM GNC and we had become very good friends. Gerry’s twin brother, Larry, was a forward air controller in Vietnam. Larry’s wife, Judy, was living here in Clear Lake and pregnant at the time. Larry is a very, very good writer, and Larry would write letters home to Judy, and then I can remember getting together over at the Griffin’s house and reading Larry’s letters telling us all about the war or his version of the war, what he saw.\\n\\n So we were aware it was going on. We were aware there were protests, but we pretty much just sort of had our blinders on, doing our own thing, I guess is the way I’d describe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly had an important job to be doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned on Apollo 8 the reading from Genesis. But what were you thoughts when they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting for that burn for them enter lunar orbit? Was that a nervous time or was that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you pretty—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.944942313145509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned on Apollo 8 the reading from Genesis. But what were you thoughts when they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting for that burn for them enter lunar orbit? Was that a nervous time or was that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you pretty—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a nervous time, although very, very confident that we were going to pull it off, but you sure wanted to see that spacecraft come out on time. So, yes, it was nervous, but also very confident that everything was going to work right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly did."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.383269236828342, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you pretty—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a nervous time, although very, very confident that we were going to pull it off, but you sure wanted to see that spacecraft come out on time. So, yes, it was nervous, but also very confident that everything was going to work right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It all went very well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.981410263142601, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a nervous time, although very, very confident that we were going to pull it off, but you sure wanted to see that spacecraft come out on time. So, yes, it was nervous, but also very confident that everything was going to work right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It all went very well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with the success of Apollo 8 and by this time the lunar module was then ready to fly. So Apollo 9 was a test of both spacecraft in Earth orbit. Did you also work the console for this one before moving completely into the SPAN room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.75712251460289, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It all went very well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with the success of Apollo 8 and by this time the lunar module was then ready to fly. So Apollo 9 was a test of both spacecraft in Earth orbit. Did you also work the console for this one before moving completely into the SPAN room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I got to work Apollo 9 also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to convince Arnie Aldrich to let you stay there a little longer or was there other reasonings behind that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 17.50791390511432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, with the success of Apollo 8 and by this time the lunar module was then ready to fly. So Apollo 9 was a test of both spacecraft in Earth orbit. Did you also work the console for this one before moving completely into the SPAN room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I got to work Apollo 9 also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to convince Arnie Aldrich to let you stay there a little longer or was there other reasonings behind that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing special. I mean, it may have just been we didn’t have anybody yet trained to take over. I think Sy [Seymour] Liebergot sat with me on Apollo 8. I can’t remember now who our EECOMs were on 9, but I was there, Charlie [Charles L.] Dumis. I don’t recall why I worked 9 and why I didn’t go immediately to SPAN, but it was either we didn’t have enough people or I talked to Arnie into one more time or something, I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, do you have any particular memories from Apollo 9? Were there any new challenges? I know there were two separate consoles for manning the two separate spacecraft, but did that present any new difficulties?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.394930506194665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually, before we go into that, I think we’ll take a quick break and change out the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we’ve now talked through your experiences on the console at Apollo, but you were moving into the SPAN room at this point. As you said, you were moving into a more management role already. You had moved into a section chief position and that the management role took more time, more duties, that you couldn’t spend as much time on simulations. What were some of those extra duties that you had as a section chief, actually, before you even moved into the SPAN room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Various employee paperwork that goes with employee evaluations. I can’t remember what all was required, but then you were also required, of course, to look at everybody in your section or in your branch and evaluate them on how they were doing. You can do that out on the console. You sit back in the back room, maybe watching some of the guys back there run sims and what have you. So, just overall supervisory kind of duties that took time and didn’t allow you to run the sims."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as you did move into the SPAN room then, which when you were in there by Apollo 10 then, since you said you worked console for 9, explain to us the difference. You said that the personnel in the SPAN room were the interface between the mission controllers and the engineers and the mission evaluation room. If you could explain how the process worked. The controllers would call you with an issue, and you would then evaluate it to a certain extent before sending it on to the engineers, is that correct? Or would you just identify who that that would need to be passed on to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.515679706714216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we would evaluate it. You might get a request from a controller that we thought was just totally uncalled for, that was going to crank up maybe too much effort and too much expense maybe on the contractor’s part, that maybe had nothing to do with really what we thought the problem was.\\n\\n Some guys, we caught some people trying to—they would try and try and try to get a piece of data out of the contractor and for whatever reason they weren’t able to. This would be preflight. Then be on the console, and now that they had SPAN going for them, they could resubmit this request and hopefully get it or force the answer out in real time. You wouldn’t let stuff like that go on. But, yes, you’d try to evaluate the answers and maybe evaluate the questions, reword the question maybe, to make it more clear, maybe combine it with somebody else’s question that you knew was in the works, and then just give it an overall management blessing before it got passed on to the engineering folks or the contractors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was obviously for things that were of a longer time frame, not for quick problems that needed quick solutions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are some examples of issues that you would work with in the SPAN room from some of the later Apollo missions? Obviously Apollo 13 probably had quite a few, but maybe some of the other ones."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m drawing a blank right now. We’ll have to go back to that one, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe as we talk about the various missions, things will come up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.795199674126907, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are some examples of issues that you would work with in the SPAN room from some of the later Apollo missions? Obviously Apollo 13 probably had quite a few, but maybe some of the other ones."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m drawing a blank right now. We’ll have to go back to that one, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe as we talk about the various missions, things will come up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For Apollo 10, that would be the first one, they took the command module, lunar module into lunar orbit and did a dress rehearsal for the landing, did everything except for land itself. In fact, they did experience a problem. This was probably more of a short-term problem, where as they were separating the ascent and descent modules, as they were separating to re-rendezvous with the command module, they had some gyrations. I believe a switch was in the wrong position, which prompted an interesting response from the crew members that brought some questions. That was very quickly resolved and they went up and docked, but do you remember any other incidents or anything from Apollo 10 in particular? I think they were pretty noneventful."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.216888526807674, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m drawing a blank right now. We’ll have to go back to that one, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe as we talk about the various missions, things will come up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For Apollo 10, that would be the first one, they took the command module, lunar module into lunar orbit and did a dress rehearsal for the landing, did everything except for land itself. In fact, they did experience a problem. This was probably more of a short-term problem, where as they were separating the ascent and descent modules, as they were separating to re-rendezvous with the command module, they had some gyrations. I believe a switch was in the wrong position, which prompted an interesting response from the crew members that brought some questions. That was very quickly resolved and they went up and docked, but do you remember any other incidents or anything from Apollo 10 in particular? I think they were pretty noneventful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. No, I don’t. I don’t recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Apollo 11, obviously the big mission for landing on the Moon for the first time. As you said, from your standpoint Apollo 8 was a big deal because you beat the Russians to the Moon and that was the big challenge there. But to actually land on the Moon, they did experience some computer alarms during the landing, which they cleared and were handling. But after they landed, there was a blocked fuel line with, I believe, a frozen plug or something that was looked at for a while. Do you recall if that was something that came through the SPAN room at all or maybe after they landed, if they talked about the computer alarms at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 15.329492008404536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. No, I don’t. I don’t recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Apollo 11, obviously the big mission for landing on the Moon for the first time. As you said, from your standpoint Apollo 8 was a big deal because you beat the Russians to the Moon and that was the big challenge there. But to actually land on the Moon, they did experience some computer alarms during the landing, which they cleared and were handling. But after they landed, there was a blocked fuel line with, I believe, a frozen plug or something that was looked at for a while. Do you recall if that was something that came through the SPAN room at all or maybe after they landed, if they talked about the computer alarms at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Even in SPAN, we were broken into CSM and LM."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So you had one person that was like FOD [Flight Operations Directorate], or whatever we were called back then, head, and then you had a CSM person and a LM person. So I wouldn’t have been very familiar with any of the LM problems that they might be working, unless I just overheard them and was curious. But, no, I don’t recall anything about a fuel line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were in the SPAN during a mission? You mentioned the division there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.647145265057969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the SPAN, yes. And the CSM probably had two tubes to look at and the LM probably had two tubes, and then probably the FOD manager had a couple of tubes to look at. So probably six tubes across there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have the capability to look at whatever telemetry that you needed to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could switch when you needed to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What communication did you have in the SPAN with the flight controllers? Could you talk to which ever ones you needed to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.49682807228663, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could switch when you needed to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What communication did you have in the SPAN with the flight controllers? Could you talk to which ever ones you needed to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We had all the loops, including the flight director’s loop. But that was very, very rare that SPAN ever talked to the flight director, because he was getting all his inputs from the EECOMs and GNCs and what have you. But, yes, we had all the loops, had monitor on the air-to-ground loops, just like everybody else in the control center, only the CapComs had talk on their air to ground. But, yes, we had every loop in the building that we wanted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you run any simulations from the SPAN? Were you there—was anyone there—during simulations runs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.655456889282071, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Occasionally, yes, we would call up the—this may have happened on Shuttle later on and not so much on Apollo, but, yes, occasionally you would call up the entire team, including the E&D folks and the contractors, and run a simulation. But like I say, I bet that was more Shuttle and we may not have done that on Apollo. SPAN never participated in ascent or entry simulations, just because they were so dynamic you didn’t have time to—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nobody needed to be calling SPAN during that anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it made a great place for us as managers to go plug in and listen to the operation and see what’s going on and evaluate the troops, because we had all their lines we could hear what they were talking to their back rooms about. It was a good way to eavesdrop on them, and we had their displays to look at, and you could sort of evaluate how their thought process was going.\\n\\n Because one of the hardest things when we were moving into SPAN was that you would be sitting in the back room and you could see a problem being worked and you could just tell that the guy out on the console was working this problem in a different way than you would. You’re probably both going to arrive at the same answer, but you were going about it a different way. I can recall that being frustrating the first time or two that I sensed that was going on. But that was a little different life back there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Very different. But still an important role to fill."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.950507654757857, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nobody needed to be calling SPAN during that anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it made a great place for us as managers to go plug in and listen to the operation and see what’s going on and evaluate the troops, because we had all their lines we could hear what they were talking to their back rooms about. It was a good way to eavesdrop on them, and we had their displays to look at, and you could sort of evaluate how their thought process was going.\\n\\n Because one of the hardest things when we were moving into SPAN was that you would be sitting in the back room and you could see a problem being worked and you could just tell that the guy out on the console was working this problem in a different way than you would. You’re probably both going to arrive at the same answer, but you were going about it a different way. I can recall that being frustrating the first time or two that I sensed that was going on. But that was a little different life back there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Very different. But still an important role to fill."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, on Apollo 11, did you have any thoughts as you were watching the landing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.117829072942929, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. I love telling the LM guys that, that we had really done our thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. Well, going on to Apollo 12, you talked about that briefly earlier, how it was struck by lightening during launch. Obviously that was a launch situation where nothing was sent back to the SPAN at that point in time, but once they got into orbit, the spacecraft did need to be evaluated to see if everything was still good for the mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense was that that was the first mission, now that I think on it, I bet you that was the first mission I had not been in the control center somewhere for launch. Because I think I was home. I think I was watching that on ascent on commercial TV, and, of course, couldn’t hear what was going on in the back rooms or in the flight directorate or anything, but just hearing what was on TV. So I think that was probably the first one I just decided, well, this is going pretty good. I’ll stay home for this one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Surprise, surprise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, did you got a call later informing you as to everything that had gone on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.353143414381032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense was that that was the first mission, now that I think on it, I bet you that was the first mission I had not been in the control center somewhere for launch. Because I think I was home. I think I was watching that on ascent on commercial TV, and, of course, couldn’t hear what was going on in the back rooms or in the flight directorate or anything, but just hearing what was on TV. So I think that was probably the first one I just decided, well, this is going pretty good. I’ll stay home for this one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Surprise, surprise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, did you got a call later informing you as to everything that had gone on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. Folks didn’t usually call unless they needed you to come in. I’m sure I was due in for the next shift or something like that, so, yes, I was probably in there within a few hours anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I way to find out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.725714904867813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, did you got a call later informing you as to everything that had gone on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. Folks didn’t usually call unless they needed you to come in. I’m sure I was due in for the next shift or something like that, so, yes, I was probably in there within a few hours anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I way to find out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, I did get to see it on TV."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, that’s good. Well, everything did go well with Apollo 12, despite the lightning."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.250794338742013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. Folks didn’t usually call unless they needed you to come in. I’m sure I was due in for the next shift or something like that, so, yes, I was probably in there within a few hours anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I way to find out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, I did get to see it on TV."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, that’s good. Well, everything did go well with Apollo 12, despite the lightning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 13, however, was a different story, which did involve everyone at the center."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 16.94532704304668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, I did get to see it on TV."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, that’s good. Well, everything did go well with Apollo 12, despite the lightning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 13, however, was a different story, which did involve everyone at the center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That one I did get called, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at home when they—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.180196681979398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I stayed in the active. I’m guessing maybe Arnie went off to work with the online bunch, I’m not sure. The SPAN guys back then probably would have been—although I mentioned Larry Canin, but I was thinking it would be Arnie and Neil [B.] Hutchinson and myself, but maybe not. Maybe Arnie wasn’t even working the mission or something. I don’t know. I don’t recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure we can check that in the manning lists.\\n\\n During Apollo 13, did you stay there at the bunkrooms that were available, or did you go home occasionally, or do you even recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never stayed at the bunkrooms. I’d go up there and unwind a lot after getting off consoles, but I always went home. I never figured anybody was going to need me that quick that they’d have to come wake me up in the middle of the night there, that they couldn’t reach me at home. Home was thirty, twenty minutes away, maybe. No, I never stayed there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any particular events during Apollo 13 that you worked specifically, any of the issues? There were so many."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were. No, I don’t recall any specifics. We worked a lot of them about charging batteries and powering down and powering up and things getting so cold, but, no, I don’t recall any specifics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure you were involved with parts of all of everything that was going on and there was so much that needed to be looked at. But it did all go well. The crew did come back or were able to get the crew back, so your confidence there panned out.\\n\\n After that time frame, obviously a little bit of time was spent investigating what had happened and if anything should change for future missions. Do you recall if there were any particular changes that affected the areas that you worked in, at least?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.757501420483761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did then what we probably should have done after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ; we should have gotten right back up and flown it again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 14 went pretty well, although they did have a few problems, that actually probably one of them that came through the SPAN room at least in your area. They had problems docking at first after they had gotten up into orbit and went to turn the command module around and retrieve the lunar model. They had a docking problem there and had to work through that. Were you at all involved with that discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t remember a lot of details, but I can remember Larry [Lawrence G.] Williams—I think Larry was the docking guru, and I can remember Larry bringing a docking probe in the SPAN room and demonstrating to all the managers how this thing worked and it’s supposed to work and speculating on what maybe was the problem and stuff. I don’t recall many specifics about it, but I can remember Larry in there with his docking probe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. I think the ultimate solution was keep trying, hit it a little harder and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think you’re right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—hold it together."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.17500157831529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t remember a lot of details, but I can remember Larry [Lawrence G.] Williams—I think Larry was the docking guru, and I can remember Larry bringing a docking probe in the SPAN room and demonstrating to all the managers how this thing worked and it’s supposed to work and speculating on what maybe was the problem and stuff. I don’t recall many specifics about it, but I can remember Larry in there with his docking probe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. I think the ultimate solution was keep trying, hit it a little harder and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think you’re right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—hold it together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although I think in his book, Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] mentions he was ready to go out and pull the spacecraft together. It probably wouldn’t have worked too well. [Laughter]\\n\\n Well Apollo 14 had a few other—as it was landing, it had, in the lunar module though, they had abort button problem and actually I believe a radar problem as well. That probably wouldn’t have fallen into your area—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.750001753683657, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think you’re right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—hold it together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although I think in his book, Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] mentions he was ready to go out and pull the spacecraft together. It probably wouldn’t have worked too well. [Laughter]\\n\\n Well Apollo 14 had a few other—as it was landing, it had, in the lunar module though, they had abort button problem and actually I believe a radar problem as well. That probably wouldn’t have fallen into your area—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—since it was lunar module. The rest of the Apollo 14 went pretty well then.\\n\\n Moving on in our research, in our listings, we didn’t find you listed on the SPAN listing for Apollo 15 and 16. Is that inaccurate, or do you recall if you worked those missions? I know the lists we have were published some days before the mission, so sometimes they were changed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.11111327615266, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—since it was lunar module. The rest of the Apollo 14 went pretty well then.\\n\\n Moving on in our research, in our listings, we didn’t find you listed on the SPAN listing for Apollo 15 and 16. Is that inaccurate, or do you recall if you worked those missions? I know the lists we have were published some days before the mission, so sometimes they were changed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The manning lists?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, I’m sure I was. Some of us may have been off working Skylab by then. But I’m sure I was. In fact, I just ran across a whole bunch of temporary badges from one of those missions. We’d have temporary badges made up. I’d probably get a dozen of them or so each mission. What we’d use them for was guys out at the MER, if we wanted to bring them over to talk to the controllers or talk to us, then we’d send a temporary badge down to the lobby and get them badged to come on up. I just ran across a bunch of those that somehow ended up in my desk, and it ended up coming home with me when I retired. So, yes, I’m sure I was around for 15 and 16. It may not have been on the manning list."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, on 16 they had a problem with the engine on the service module. I think it was a gimbal problem before they went down to the lunar surface after they had undocked though, Ken [Thomas K.] Mattingly [II] was testing the system and found an error there. Do you recall that particular incident?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.901236973502957, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The manning lists?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, I’m sure I was. Some of us may have been off working Skylab by then. But I’m sure I was. In fact, I just ran across a whole bunch of temporary badges from one of those missions. We’d have temporary badges made up. I’d probably get a dozen of them or so each mission. What we’d use them for was guys out at the MER, if we wanted to bring them over to talk to the controllers or talk to us, then we’d send a temporary badge down to the lobby and get them badged to come on up. I just ran across a bunch of those that somehow ended up in my desk, and it ended up coming home with me when I retired. So, yes, I’m sure I was around for 15 and 16. It may not have been on the manning list."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, on 16 they had a problem with the engine on the service module. I think it was a gimbal problem before they went down to the lunar surface after they had undocked though, Ken [Thomas K.] Mattingly [II] was testing the system and found an error there. Do you recall that particular incident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just vaguely. I don’t recall any specifics about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know they did ultimately resolve it, and it was a problem with the backup system, I believe, and they resolved that and went on to have a good mission for both 15 and 16. Both went well. And Apollo 17 was pretty error-free."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.890263303892173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, I’m sure I was. Some of us may have been off working Skylab by then. But I’m sure I was. In fact, I just ran across a whole bunch of temporary badges from one of those missions. We’d have temporary badges made up. I’d probably get a dozen of them or so each mission. What we’d use them for was guys out at the MER, if we wanted to bring them over to talk to the controllers or talk to us, then we’d send a temporary badge down to the lobby and get them badged to come on up. I just ran across a bunch of those that somehow ended up in my desk, and it ended up coming home with me when I retired. So, yes, I’m sure I was around for 15 and 16. It may not have been on the manning list."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, on 16 they had a problem with the engine on the service module. I think it was a gimbal problem before they went down to the lunar surface after they had undocked though, Ken [Thomas K.] Mattingly [II] was testing the system and found an error there. Do you recall that particular incident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just vaguely. I don’t recall any specifics about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know they did ultimately resolve it, and it was a problem with the backup system, I believe, and they resolved that and went on to have a good mission for both 15 and 16. Both went well. And Apollo 17 was pretty error-free."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it was the end of the Apollo Program. Did you have any thoughts on the program coming to a close, or were you ready to move on to Skylab and Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 18.76695922654686, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just vaguely. I don’t recall any specifics about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know they did ultimately resolve it, and it was a problem with the backup system, I believe, and they resolved that and went on to have a good mission for both 15 and 16. Both went well. And Apollo 17 was pretty error-free."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it was the end of the Apollo Program. Did you have any thoughts on the program coming to a close, or were you ready to move on to Skylab and Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I don’t recall any sadness or anything that Apollo was coming to a close. I’m sure it’s just like that’s the way things are supposed to work, because that’s the way Gemini had worked and that’s the way we heard that Mercury had worked. So it was time to finish this program and go on to another one.\\n\\n We were heavily involved in Skylab by that time. In fact, I guess I had the branch by then. I had Arnie’s. Arnie had left. Getting ready for Skylab, at some point I was made Carl [B.] Shelley’s deputy branch chief."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that in the CSM?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.658526484601216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the handbooks and the mission rules and everything were exactly like what we had gone through in Gemini and Apollo. I think that’s why Kranz wanted me to go do that, because I had all that experience, or at least that’s the way we approached it, that we would treat an ATM telescope, an X-ray telescope, for instance, we’d treat it just like another system on the spacecraft. We’d write our rules and procedures and draw our schematics and everything, just like it was another system. So that’s sort of the way we approached that. All that fit in very well, I thought."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work with any of the primary investigators on these experiments while you were developing these rules and handbooks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our guys did, yes. Yes, our guys did. Here again, we would have contractor support like we’d had all through Gemini and Apollo where we’d have McDonnell and North American people. We had people from Ball Brothers and Naval Research Lab that would come down, and they were our, quote, “experts” on these various instruments. Then, yes, the PIs [Principal Investigators] would come down occasionally and we’d get to meet them, work with them. Our guys worked with them a lot. Carl and I didn’t too much, but the guys did a lot, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The experiments, it was all decided beforehand which they were. You didn’t have any involvement in the selection of them, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just the planning on how they were going to be done."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.73169609400135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our guys did, yes. Yes, our guys did. Here again, we would have contractor support like we’d had all through Gemini and Apollo where we’d have McDonnell and North American people. We had people from Ball Brothers and Naval Research Lab that would come down, and they were our, quote, “experts” on these various instruments. Then, yes, the PIs [Principal Investigators] would come down occasionally and we’d get to meet them, work with them. Our guys worked with them a lot. Carl and I didn’t too much, but the guys did a lot, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The experiments, it was all decided beforehand which they were. You didn’t have any involvement in the selection of them, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just the planning on how they were going to be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point was there discussion on time lines at that point as well for the larger mission as a whole, or was this still more just the initial planning for how the experiments would be done on the—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.701884548890389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just the planning on how they were going to be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point was there discussion on time lines at that point as well for the larger mission as a whole, or was this still more just the initial planning for how the experiments would be done on the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense is that, yes, that we were starting to time-line some of that stuff, at least in a gross sense, saying we’ll allocate this many hours per day on ATMs and this much on whatever. But, yes, my sense is there was some of that going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. When you moved back then to the Systems Branch that then now included the Saturn workshop, did that also include the simulators for the workshop?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.308483606159655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was a different organization back then. They had the sim guys, and then we had the—yes, they were a separate organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to think if we were even tied together at the top. I guess, yes, we were. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were just dealing primarily with still the systems of command module and then system within the Sky—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.78720400684406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was a different organization back then. They had the sim guys, and then we had the—yes, they were a separate organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to think if we were even tied together at the top. I guess, yes, we were. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were just dealing primarily with still the systems of command module and then system within the Sky—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the center workshop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were some of the differences with those systems? Here now you’re looking for long-duration flight, obviously very different than what you’d been doing for the orbital missions. Even Apollo, even though some of them were longer duration, they were still very short in comparison. What were some of the systems’ differences to be able to maintain those longer-duration flights?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.208004452048955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to think if we were even tied together at the top. I guess, yes, we were. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were just dealing primarily with still the systems of command module and then system within the Sky—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the center workshop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were some of the differences with those systems? Here now you’re looking for long-duration flight, obviously very different than what you’d been doing for the orbital missions. Even Apollo, even though some of them were longer duration, they were still very short in comparison. What were some of the systems’ differences to be able to maintain those longer-duration flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, we didn’t have fuel cells; we had solar arrays. Had solar arrays on the center workshop and solar arrays on the ATM. We had coolant loops on each, on the ATM and also on the workshop. We had a refrigeration loop that maintained our refrigeration equipment. Housekeeping equipment, showers, kitchens, a lot of new stuff like that that we had not really worried about in the past. It was all brand new.\\n\\n No more cryos. We still had them on the CSM, of course, but not on the workshop. Had a mixed gas atmosphere. I guess we had gotten away from the oxygen that we had at the time of the fire, so we had a mixed gas atmosphere and controllers that controlled the amount of nitrogen that you had in the air and stuff. Yes, there was some new—Skylab was an interesting, really interesting project from the EECOM standpoint because of those different kinds of—it was becoming more and more like the house you lived in, rather than a spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They certainly were going to be living for a while, so you want it to be comfortable."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.786671613387728, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the center workshop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were some of the differences with those systems? Here now you’re looking for long-duration flight, obviously very different than what you’d been doing for the orbital missions. Even Apollo, even though some of them were longer duration, they were still very short in comparison. What were some of the systems’ differences to be able to maintain those longer-duration flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, we didn’t have fuel cells; we had solar arrays. Had solar arrays on the center workshop and solar arrays on the ATM. We had coolant loops on each, on the ATM and also on the workshop. We had a refrigeration loop that maintained our refrigeration equipment. Housekeeping equipment, showers, kitchens, a lot of new stuff like that that we had not really worried about in the past. It was all brand new.\\n\\n No more cryos. We still had them on the CSM, of course, but not on the workshop. Had a mixed gas atmosphere. I guess we had gotten away from the oxygen that we had at the time of the fire, so we had a mixed gas atmosphere and controllers that controlled the amount of nitrogen that you had in the air and stuff. Yes, there was some new—Skylab was an interesting, really interesting project from the EECOM standpoint because of those different kinds of—it was becoming more and more like the house you lived in, rather than a spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They certainly were going to be living for a while, so you want it to be comfortable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any of these new systems being particularly challenging during that process of development, any of them causing any particular or having any particular problems?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 17.540746237097476, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, we didn’t have fuel cells; we had solar arrays. Had solar arrays on the center workshop and solar arrays on the ATM. We had coolant loops on each, on the ATM and also on the workshop. We had a refrigeration loop that maintained our refrigeration equipment. Housekeeping equipment, showers, kitchens, a lot of new stuff like that that we had not really worried about in the past. It was all brand new.\\n\\n No more cryos. We still had them on the CSM, of course, but not on the workshop. Had a mixed gas atmosphere. I guess we had gotten away from the oxygen that we had at the time of the fire, so we had a mixed gas atmosphere and controllers that controlled the amount of nitrogen that you had in the air and stuff. Yes, there was some new—Skylab was an interesting, really interesting project from the EECOM standpoint because of those different kinds of—it was becoming more and more like the house you lived in, rather than a spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They certainly were going to be living for a while, so you want it to be comfortable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any of these new systems being particularly challenging during that process of development, any of them causing any particular or having any particular problems?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall anything during the development phase."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or even during missions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.840427453206761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall anything during the development phase."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or even during missions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At least specifically. We spent an awful lot of time going back and forth to Marshall. Of course Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama] was building the Saturn workshop and the ATM. The engineering folks here at JSC were totally not involved in it. Boy, if you had a question of a simulation like the MER, you had to go to Marshall to get that information on Skylab.\\n\\n So we spent an awful lot of time going back and forth to Marshall on various reviews, whereas on Apollo you could walk across the campus to a meeting. Here you had to go get on an airplane and go to Marshall for the meetings. Even had a charter plane, an old Lockheed Electra that would go out to Marshall twice a week, I think it was. Flew out of Ellington and into the Redstone Arsenal up there that we used, and of course the Marshall guys used coming this way.\\n\\n Then when we got ready to fly, what used to be SPAN now became the FOMR, the Flying Operations Management Room. We had it broken down similar to what SPAN did. We had the flight control people all on the consoles. We had a FOMR manager. Then I guess we had FOMR systems that sat over here, and we had a FOMR experiments guy, which was also a flight control guy, that sat over here. Then we had, rather than having Apollo Program Office people behind us at the table, we had Marshall people back there.\\n\\n So, yes, a lot of the Marshall folks came here for the duration. We became very, very good friends with a bunch of them. I’ve got guys I still run around with and play golf with that I met because they were here working in the FOMRs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was that relationship between Johnson Space Center people and Marshall Space Center people? Did it start out that well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.975836361983656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was that relationship between Johnson Space Center people and Marshall Space Center people? Did it start out that well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It got very strained. Here again, it was almost one of these “who’s in charge” things. The JSC guys, I think our sense was “We’re the flight controllers and we’re going to fly it, and if we need your help, we’ll ask for it.” The Marshall folks, understandably said, “Hey, we built it, we designed it, we know more about it than anybody else, and we’ll make our inputs into it.” They weren’t against if we wouldn’t take their inputs, they’d go to Headquarters and try to bring them down the other way. There was a lot of that.\\n\\n But we had a remarkably good bunch in the FOMR. I think everybody really got along good, and no lasting enemies. We had our differences for a while, but it was a good time. Everybody worked well together. A few rough edges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The team came together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the Skylab then began the missions, the launch obviously was a challenge. Several things went wrong on that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.639818179981839, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It got very strained. Here again, it was almost one of these “who’s in charge” things. The JSC guys, I think our sense was “We’re the flight controllers and we’re going to fly it, and if we need your help, we’ll ask for it.” The Marshall folks, understandably said, “Hey, we built it, we designed it, we know more about it than anybody else, and we’ll make our inputs into it.” They weren’t against if we wouldn’t take their inputs, they’d go to Headquarters and try to bring them down the other way. There was a lot of that.\\n\\n But we had a remarkably good bunch in the FOMR. I think everybody really got along good, and no lasting enemies. We had our differences for a while, but it was a good time. Everybody worked well together. A few rough edges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The team came together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the Skylab then began the missions, the launch obviously was a challenge. Several things went wrong on that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, the wing tore off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in the FOMR at that point during the launch or actually even during the missions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.377575755535377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the Skylab then began the missions, the launch obviously was a challenge. Several things went wrong on that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, the wing tore off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in the FOMR at that point during the launch or actually even during the missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you still have an active role there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.197306395039307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, the wing tore off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in the FOMR at that point during the launch or actually even during the missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you still have an active role there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I stayed in the FOMR the whole time. I can’t tell you if I was in there for the launch when the wing came off or not. I just can’t recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once the launch problems were identified, whether you were in the FOMR or working other duties, do you recall what your involvement was with figuring out to help fix the problem, or was that pretty much done through other areas since they knew that it was reengineering basically had to be done?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.12013135190038, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I stayed in the FOMR the whole time. I can’t tell you if I was in there for the launch when the wing came off or not. I just can’t recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once the launch problems were identified, whether you were in the FOMR or working other duties, do you recall what your involvement was with figuring out to help fix the problem, or was that pretty much done through other areas since they knew that it was reengineering basically had to be done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I can recall some of the various EVA tools that were developed and gone over, and helping evaluate those things, watching guys try to cut through what we thought was holding that one wing that hadn’t deployed. Not any real specifics, though, but I know we stayed—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It involved—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "—stayed awful busy getting that thing finally settled down and habitable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall as the crew got up there and began working and trying to fix it, do you recall that experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.793047121948394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that was [Charles “Pete”] Conrad [Jr.] and [Joseph P.] Kerwin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was that P.J. Weitz on that one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. No specifics. Just way in the back of my mind I can remember the EVA and hearing Pete. When he finally got it loose, I think he let out a big yell or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] Sounds about right."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.770052357720438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was that P.J. Weitz on that one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. No specifics. Just way in the back of my mind I can remember the EVA and hearing Pete. When he finally got it loose, I think he let out a big yell or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] Sounds about right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the three missions were up and running, the first one, once they got everything working again, once they got the fixes done, things went pretty well, although there were some I believe gyroscope problems along the way."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.855613730800487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. No specifics. Just way in the back of my mind I can remember the EVA and hearing Pete. When he finally got it loose, I think he let out a big yell or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] Sounds about right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the three missions were up and running, the first one, once they got everything working again, once they got the fixes done, things went pretty well, although there were some I believe gyroscope problems along the way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The CMGs [control moment gyros], yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A few other systems began to have problems throughout the program. I think by the end they were having problems with the dehumidifier and things."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.061793034222763, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as the three missions were up and running, the first one, once they got everything working again, once they got the fixes done, things went pretty well, although there were some I believe gyroscope problems along the way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The CMGs [control moment gyros], yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A few other systems began to have problems throughout the program. I think by the end they were having problems with the dehumidifier and things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember any of the various problems they experienced and some of the effects of those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.891102511386126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember any of the various problems they experienced and some of the effects of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall any specifics. We stayed awful busy, not only working with Marshall, and just the distance made it harder than having somebody over in the MER."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Skylab was so massive, there were so many systems onboard that it was—because you also had a CSM, don’t forget, still attached to the thing, so any problems that came up with it had to be worked, but I can’t remember any CSM problems during all of Skylab. That’s amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there was one where they had some thrusters that began leaking and actually even talked whether they would need to send up a rescue crew. It was on the second mission. There was leaks in a couple of thrusters and they ended up just turning them off and with the amount of time it would have taken to get the rescue crew turned around, it would have been close to when they would have been coming down anyway."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.545669457095695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall any specifics. We stayed awful busy, not only working with Marshall, and just the distance made it harder than having somebody over in the MER."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Skylab was so massive, there were so many systems onboard that it was—because you also had a CSM, don’t forget, still attached to the thing, so any problems that came up with it had to be worked, but I can’t remember any CSM problems during all of Skylab. That’s amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there was one where they had some thrusters that began leaking and actually even talked whether they would need to send up a rescue crew. It was on the second mission. There was leaks in a couple of thrusters and they ended up just turning them off and with the amount of time it would have taken to get the rescue crew turned around, it would have been close to when they would have been coming down anyway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. That vaguely rings a bell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the only one that I specifically remember—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 18.38407717455077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Skylab was so massive, there were so many systems onboard that it was—because you also had a CSM, don’t forget, still attached to the thing, so any problems that came up with it had to be worked, but I can’t remember any CSM problems during all of Skylab. That’s amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there was one where they had some thrusters that began leaking and actually even talked whether they would need to send up a rescue crew. It was on the second mission. There was leaks in a couple of thrusters and they ended up just turning them off and with the amount of time it would have taken to get the rescue crew turned around, it would have been close to when they would have been coming down anyway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. That vaguely rings a bell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the only one that I specifically remember—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—for the command module."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.881576758704656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—for the command module."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But on Skylab, the thing was so massive and so many systems, it seems like it was always something. It was a fun mission to work. But I can’t recall any specifics.\\n\\n I can recall one morning we were undocking and we lost our refrigeration loop, I think. I can’t remember now if we got it back or we worked our way around it or something, but I just remember the refrigeration loop going down. Because that happened by the time I was on my way into work and I had just gotten in and somebody said that, I remember, “We just lost our refrigeration loop.”\\n\\n On Skylab we went to—the guys, somebody went off and studied how oil companies shifted. We came up with a scheme whereby you would work seven days on. If I recall this right, if you were coming off days, you got a day off and then you went to midnights. I guess then you went to evenings, and then you worked the like four to midnight shift and you’d work seven days on. Then I think you got two days off. Then you went into midnights, working midnight to eight. After you came off midnights, then you got four days off before you went back to the day shift.\\n\\n So Skylab was different than Apollo in that way in that you weren’t—in Apollo and all the other missions we’d ever worked, you were always handing over to somebody that you had just—you had just left the console sixteen hours ago at the most when you came back in to catch up. Here on Skylab, you’d be off for days and you’d come in and you’d have to read through the log and catch up with what was going on.\\n\\n So that was a big difference, trying to stay abreast of the whole thing. You almost had to force yourself to get out of the office and leave. On your four days off, you didn’t want to be going over in the office and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We bought a boat and a camper, and we did a lot of camping during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.730341677413154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We bought a boat and a camper, and we did a lot of camping during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good way to relax."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The individuals then in the FOMR and the Mission Evaluation Room, did they follow that same rotation schedule then?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.58926853045906, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good way to relax."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The individuals then in the FOMR and the Mission Evaluation Room, did they follow that same rotation schedule then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. In fact, we put the FOMR guys on the same shift as the flight control teams. In other words, we called the EECOM EGIL back then. We changed his name to EGIL. That was Electrical, General Instrumentation and Life support, I think was what that stood for. GNC was now called GNS [Guidance Navigation Systems], because we still had EECOMs and GNCs that were taking care of the CSM.\\n\\n But the FOMR team followed the other team, so we’d work with the same flight director, same EGIL, same GNS for the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been challenging adjusting your body to that kind of a schedule."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.321409478287845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The individuals then in the FOMR and the Mission Evaluation Room, did they follow that same rotation schedule then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. In fact, we put the FOMR guys on the same shift as the flight control teams. In other words, we called the EECOM EGIL back then. We changed his name to EGIL. That was Electrical, General Instrumentation and Life support, I think was what that stood for. GNC was now called GNS [Guidance Navigation Systems], because we still had EECOMs and GNCs that were taking care of the CSM.\\n\\n But the FOMR team followed the other team, so we’d work with the same flight director, same EGIL, same GNS for the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been challenging adjusting your body to that kind of a schedule."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t as bad as I had imagined it was going to be. I always tried to just totally change things around. Like when I got off work, the only place we found you could get a beer at eight o’clock in the morning was the coffee shop at the Ramada Inn, which was across the street. So quite often we’d get off shift and go over there. It’d be like going to the Singing Wheel or something after we got off normal shift we’d go over there. Get some strange looks from—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] I bet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.134899420319828, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. In fact, we put the FOMR guys on the same shift as the flight control teams. In other words, we called the EECOM EGIL back then. We changed his name to EGIL. That was Electrical, General Instrumentation and Life support, I think was what that stood for. GNC was now called GNS [Guidance Navigation Systems], because we still had EECOMs and GNCs that were taking care of the CSM.\\n\\n But the FOMR team followed the other team, so we’d work with the same flight director, same EGIL, same GNS for the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been challenging adjusting your body to that kind of a schedule."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t as bad as I had imagined it was going to be. I always tried to just totally change things around. Like when I got off work, the only place we found you could get a beer at eight o’clock in the morning was the coffee shop at the Ramada Inn, which was across the street. So quite often we’d get off shift and go over there. It’d be like going to the Singing Wheel or something after we got off normal shift we’d go over there. Get some strange looks from—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] I bet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—the patrons in the place, but go over there and have a few beer and unwind and go home and take care of whatever chores you had around there and then try to go to sleep. But that’s the way that helped me get through is trying to get on a schedule like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as you found something that worked for you there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.038777133688697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t as bad as I had imagined it was going to be. I always tried to just totally change things around. Like when I got off work, the only place we found you could get a beer at eight o’clock in the morning was the coffee shop at the Ramada Inn, which was across the street. So quite often we’d get off shift and go over there. It’d be like going to the Singing Wheel or something after we got off normal shift we’d go over there. Get some strange looks from—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] I bet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—the patrons in the place, but go over there and have a few beer and unwind and go home and take care of whatever chores you had around there and then try to go to sleep. But that’s the way that helped me get through is trying to get on a schedule like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as you found something that worked for you there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, yes. Yes, I never had any trouble sleeping during the day. I was one of the lucky ones. Some people did. Some people really found that hard to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly get turned in to the light and dark schedule—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.043085704098552, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—the patrons in the place, but go over there and have a few beer and unwind and go home and take care of whatever chores you had around there and then try to go to sleep. But that’s the way that helped me get through is trying to get on a schedule like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as you found something that worked for you there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, yes. Yes, I never had any trouble sleeping during the day. I was one of the lucky ones. Some people did. Some people really found that hard to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly get turned in to the light and dark schedule—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and it can throw you off."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.158984115665056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, yes. Yes, I never had any trouble sleeping during the day. I was one of the lucky ones. Some people did. Some people really found that hard to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly get turned in to the light and dark schedule—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and it can throw you off."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think my wife put up dark curtains or something. We could keep the house pretty dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The last Skylab crew experienced some difficulty. The first one had had all the recovery from the launch—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.39887123962784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and it can throw you off."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think my wife put up dark curtains or something. We could keep the house pretty dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The last Skylab crew experienced some difficulty. The first one had had all the recovery from the launch—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—to deal with. The second crew had had more time, they had been able to adapt and get a lot done while up on orbit. The last crew, since they were going to be up longer, had even more tasks. They had some difficulties since they were still adapting to working in space but then trying to do their tasks, so there was some conflict that grew between the crew and the flight controllers. Do you recall that situation?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.77652359958649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think my wife put up dark curtains or something. We could keep the house pretty dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The last Skylab crew experienced some difficulty. The first one had had all the recovery from the launch—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—to deal with. The second crew had had more time, they had been able to adapt and get a lot done while up on orbit. The last crew, since they were going to be up longer, had even more tasks. They had some difficulties since they were still adapting to working in space but then trying to do their tasks, so there was some conflict that grew between the crew and the flight controllers. Do you recall that situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall any specifics. Now that you mention it, just in the background I can say, yes, I can recall some of that going on, but I don’t recall any specifics about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It probably didn’t affect too much. It wasn’t something they could send to you all to find an engineering fix for."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.307248443984989, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—to deal with. The second crew had had more time, they had been able to adapt and get a lot done while up on orbit. The last crew, since they were going to be up longer, had even more tasks. They had some difficulties since they were still adapting to working in space but then trying to do their tasks, so there was some conflict that grew between the crew and the flight controllers. Do you recall that situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall any specifics. Now that you mention it, just in the background I can say, yes, I can recall some of that going on, but I don’t recall any specifics about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It probably didn’t affect too much. It wasn’t something they could send to you all to find an engineering fix for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They did eventually resolve that and work it out, a good schedule that worked for everybody. All three missions were very successful ultimately."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.008053826649988, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t recall any specifics. Now that you mention it, just in the background I can say, yes, I can recall some of that going on, but I don’t recall any specifics about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It probably didn’t affect too much. It wasn’t something they could send to you all to find an engineering fix for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They did eventually resolve that and work it out, a good schedule that worked for everybody. All three missions were very successful ultimately."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Skylab went very well.\\n\\n Well, at this point I think we’re probably at a good point to stop before moving into your work with Shuttle, unless there’s any particular areas that we haven’t touched on from when you were working on any of these early programs or even the transition.\\n\\n Oh, we didn’t talk about Apollo Soyuz. I don’t how much you were involved in that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.78672647405554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They did eventually resolve that and work it out, a good schedule that worked for everybody. All three missions were very successful ultimately."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Skylab went very well.\\n\\n Well, at this point I think we’re probably at a good point to stop before moving into your work with Shuttle, unless there’s any particular areas that we haven’t touched on from when you were working on any of these early programs or even the transition.\\n\\n Oh, we didn’t talk about Apollo Soyuz. I don’t how much you were involved in that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, that came along way at the end of Skylab, about ‘75."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think at this point you were now chief of the Electrical Environmental Systems Branch."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.763029415617268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Skylab went very well.\\n\\n Well, at this point I think we’re probably at a good point to stop before moving into your work with Shuttle, unless there’s any particular areas that we haven’t touched on from when you were working on any of these early programs or even the transition.\\n\\n Oh, we didn’t talk about Apollo Soyuz. I don’t how much you were involved in that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, that came along way at the end of Skylab, about ‘75."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think at this point you were now chief of the Electrical Environmental Systems Branch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Had we split them up by then? Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP] was ‘75, so I think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 18.225962241502796, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Had we split them up by then? Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP] was ‘75, so I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re right, at some point we—up until then, CSM systems had all been one branch and lunar modules systems had all been one branch. Arnie had the branch and then I had the branch. But then comes Shuttle, and maybe we did this for ASTP. The systems were getting so being and so complicated, that we decided that’s at least two branches worth, probably three. Well, three I guess. So we split it up to sort of an EECOM-oriented branch and a GNC-oriented branch and then an INCO kind of oriented branch, instrumentation communications. So that’s what the title of this thing.\\n\\n Then I guess we could split it by ASTP. Don’t remember a lot about ASTP. We tried very hard to get along with the Russians that were here. I can remember a lot of parties that we had with those guys.\\n\\n Somebody lived over in the apartments in Nassau Bay, was a bachelor, and so had a swinging bachelor apartment, and knew somebody that was with one of the airlines, Delta or somebody, and some of the Delta folks would come out here and party with the Russians. So we did a lot of socializing with the Russians.\\n\\n We had done the same thing with the Marshall guys just to get to know them when they first started showing up down here on Skylab. I can recall a number of parties where somebody—over at Clear Lake on the corner of El Camino and Reseda. There’s an apartment complex there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of our guys had actually lived there and had access to they had a party room there. But I can remember some people throwing parties for the Marshall guys, and it was just to get to know one another kind of a thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to build that time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.390076841361475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of our guys had actually lived there and had access to they had a party room there. But I can remember some people throwing parties for the Marshall guys, and it was just to get to know one another kind of a thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to build that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. It was good reason to party, too.\\n\\n For some reason now that we get to ASTP, we’ve moved, and we’re not partying over here anymore. We’re across the street at Nassau Bay. I can remember some good parties with the Russian guys.\\n\\n Had a few of our guys that went to Russia. I think Sy went and Steve [J. S.] McLendon, I think, went over. Steve was one of our EGILs on Skylab and Sy was, too. Sy had been an EECOM on Apollo. Steve and another guy, Craig Staresinich, came in right at the end of Apollo, and we started grooming them for Skylab. They were two just absolutely outstanding EGILs on Skylab. But I remember Steve going to Russia and Sy going to Russia.\\n\\n I can’t recall a lot about the mission. We had a new position that was Frank [C.] Littleton, out of the program office did it. He was sort of a—what did we call him? Joint Flight or something like that, where he was sort of overseeing the joint activities that we did with the Russians. Because I’m sure here again we had this who’s in charge thing. I can imagine it going on amongst ourselves, but then I can also imagine it’s must have been horrible with the Russians. Now, Glynn Lunney went and worked all that, thank goodness, and I didn’t have to get involved with that, but I can just imagine it went on. But other than Frank and that new position in the control center, I don’t remember an awful lot about the mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know from a systems standpoint with the docking module and I believe they had different pressures in the two different—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—spacecraft they had to regulate so I don’t know if that—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.655640934846083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. It was good reason to party, too.\\n\\n For some reason now that we get to ASTP, we’ve moved, and we’re not partying over here anymore. We’re across the street at Nassau Bay. I can remember some good parties with the Russian guys.\\n\\n Had a few of our guys that went to Russia. I think Sy went and Steve [J. S.] McLendon, I think, went over. Steve was one of our EGILs on Skylab and Sy was, too. Sy had been an EECOM on Apollo. Steve and another guy, Craig Staresinich, came in right at the end of Apollo, and we started grooming them for Skylab. They were two just absolutely outstanding EGILs on Skylab. But I remember Steve going to Russia and Sy going to Russia.\\n\\n I can’t recall a lot about the mission. We had a new position that was Frank [C.] Littleton, out of the program office did it. He was sort of a—what did we call him? Joint Flight or something like that, where he was sort of overseeing the joint activities that we did with the Russians. Because I’m sure here again we had this who’s in charge thing. I can imagine it going on amongst ourselves, but then I can also imagine it’s must have been horrible with the Russians. Now, Glynn Lunney went and worked all that, thank goodness, and I didn’t have to get involved with that, but I can just imagine it went on. But other than Frank and that new position in the control center, I don’t remember an awful lot about the mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know from a systems standpoint with the docking module and I believe they had different pressures in the two different—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—spacecraft they had to regulate so I don’t know if that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—caused any—well, probably some discussion."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.061823260940093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—spacecraft they had to regulate so I don’t know if that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—caused any—well, probably some discussion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you probably right. Probably a lot of discussion, but I can’t remember any big problems or anything with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think everything went pretty well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.624248067711214, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—caused any—well, probably some discussion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you probably right. Probably a lot of discussion, but I can’t remember any big problems or anything with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think everything went pretty well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing that jumps out at me. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Until landing they did leave open—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.249164519679127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you probably right. Probably a lot of discussion, but I can’t remember any big problems or anything with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think everything went pretty well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing that jumps out at me. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Until landing they did leave open—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That’s when Vance [D. Brand]—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—something on landing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.054627244087918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing that jumps out at me. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Until landing they did leave open—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That’s when Vance [D. Brand]—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—something on landing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was Vance got blamed for that, left open a valve and, yes, we sucked some fumes in, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned working with the Russians and partying with them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.060696937875463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That’s when Vance [D. Brand]—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—something on landing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was Vance got blamed for that, left open a valve and, yes, we sucked some fumes in, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned working with the Russians and partying with them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the challenges? Were there cultural challenges in working with them and getting to understand each other and getting to know each other and the language barrier?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.956329930972736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was Vance got blamed for that, left open a valve and, yes, we sucked some fumes in, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned working with the Russians and partying with them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the challenges? Were there cultural challenges in working with them and getting to understand each other and getting to know each other and the language barrier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. We didn’t—at least I didn’t trust them. I don’t think they trusted us. Yes, they were still the enemy, as far as I was concerned, but an enemy we were at least working with. Enemy is probably many too strong a word.\\n\\n But my sense was that and I think we had been told that when you get a group of them together, at least one in that group’s going to be KGB [Soviet secret police]. You won’t know which one it is, but count on it. One of them is going to be KGB. So my sense was that they didn’t feel real free and couldn’t be as open maybe as they would have liked to have been or maybe we would have liked them to have been.\\n\\n My sense is that total project was that they learned an awful lot from us, and we didn’t learn anything from them. Our spacecraft was so much more advanced. They had the luxury ever since they’d started of having the big boosters, so they didn’t have to worry about weight and stuff like we had to fight all those years. So we were just more sophisticated. We had to be. We had to develop that sophistication, and they didn’t. So like I say, my sense was they learned a lot from us, but we didn’t learn anything from them on ASTP. They weren’t as easy to work with just because they weren’t capable or allowed to be as open as you would have liked them to have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that formed a foundation that later was built on with the Shuttle-Mir program—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.06258881219193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the challenges? Were there cultural challenges in working with them and getting to understand each other and getting to know each other and the language barrier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. We didn’t—at least I didn’t trust them. I don’t think they trusted us. Yes, they were still the enemy, as far as I was concerned, but an enemy we were at least working with. Enemy is probably many too strong a word.\\n\\n But my sense was that and I think we had been told that when you get a group of them together, at least one in that group’s going to be KGB [Soviet secret police]. You won’t know which one it is, but count on it. One of them is going to be KGB. So my sense was that they didn’t feel real free and couldn’t be as open maybe as they would have liked to have been or maybe we would have liked them to have been.\\n\\n My sense is that total project was that they learned an awful lot from us, and we didn’t learn anything from them. Our spacecraft was so much more advanced. They had the luxury ever since they’d started of having the big boosters, so they didn’t have to worry about weight and stuff like we had to fight all those years. So we were just more sophisticated. We had to be. We had to develop that sophistication, and they didn’t. So like I say, my sense was they learned a lot from us, but we didn’t learn anything from them on ASTP. They weren’t as easy to work with just because they weren’t capable or allowed to be as open as you would have liked them to have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that formed a foundation that later was built on with the Shuttle-Mir program—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—which is interesting, so we’ll probably touch on that at least briefly—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.40287645799103, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. We didn’t—at least I didn’t trust them. I don’t think they trusted us. Yes, they were still the enemy, as far as I was concerned, but an enemy we were at least working with. Enemy is probably many too strong a word.\\n\\n But my sense was that and I think we had been told that when you get a group of them together, at least one in that group’s going to be KGB [Soviet secret police]. You won’t know which one it is, but count on it. One of them is going to be KGB. So my sense was that they didn’t feel real free and couldn’t be as open maybe as they would have liked to have been or maybe we would have liked them to have been.\\n\\n My sense is that total project was that they learned an awful lot from us, and we didn’t learn anything from them. Our spacecraft was so much more advanced. They had the luxury ever since they’d started of having the big boosters, so they didn’t have to worry about weight and stuff like we had to fight all those years. So we were just more sophisticated. We had to be. We had to develop that sophistication, and they didn’t. So like I say, my sense was they learned a lot from us, but we didn’t learn anything from them on ASTP. They weren’t as easy to work with just because they weren’t capable or allowed to be as open as you would have liked them to have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that formed a foundation that later was built on with the Shuttle-Mir program—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—which is interesting, so we’ll probably touch on that at least briefly—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—toward the end as we talk. At this point I’d like to ask Kirk and Kevin if they had any questions on the stuff that we’ve talked about so far—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 26.00319606443448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—which is interesting, so we’ll probably touch on that at least briefly—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—toward the end as we talk. At this point I’d like to ask Kirk and Kevin if they had any questions on the stuff that we’ve talked about so far—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—is that all right?\\n\\n RUSNAK: Yes, I had couple of general thoughts. When you came here from Boeing, you said you had general through this process where you went through a couple different branches of their engineering, whatever, you thought maybe tests was what you wanted to do. Why did you go into operations when you came here? What were you expecting out of that, and did you consider going into any other areas at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:376", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.043320075858801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Hope you had good weather."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did. We went twice. Once we went we had very nice weather, the other time it rained. But even that was kind of nice because it was nice cool rain."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We had left nice hot Houston, so—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:378", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.159244528732001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did. We went twice. Once we went we had very nice weather, the other time it rained. But even that was kind of nice because it was nice cool rain."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We had left nice hot Houston, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We moved up in the end of January and first of February. One day in May we were driving to work and all of a sudden there was Mt. Rainier, and that was the first time we’d ever seen it after all those months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:380", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.39916058748, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We had left nice hot Houston, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We moved up in the end of January and first of February. One day in May we were driving to work and all of a sudden there was Mt. Rainier, and that was the first time we’d ever seen it after all those months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We almost wrecked the car."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] I can see why. That would be rather startling to all of a sudden have a mountain."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:386", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.72450012, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew it was there because we had driven up to it, up into the snow and stuff, but you still couldn’t see anything. Everything was just total clouds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a good experience living in Seattle. We loved it.\\n\\n My son Greg, when he got married, he presented me with this write-up that he had done. He recalled going with me one day—well, he recalled a lot of things. He recalled going down to the Singing Wheel. That was our hangout then, down in Webster. Going down there with me and playing shuffleboard and stuff.\\n\\n But then in his little write-up he said he recalled going to—it must been a Mother’s Day, and we were going out to look for flowers and came down to—there was a flower stand. It’s on what is now NASA Road One. He can remember having to go across this bridge over a deep ditch. But there was a guy in this little stand, and [unclear] and Greg said he remembers the guy kneeling down and talking to him and everything. I had totally forgotten this until he wrote this thing up and gave it to me. But he said then he remembers as we were going home in the car me saying, “Do you know who that was?” And Greg said, no, he didn’t know who it was. Turns out it was Neil [A.] Armstrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So Greg said that really impressed him because that was in May, and I guess his mission was in July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s neat. That’s neat.\\n\\n What did your family think about your involvement in the program and were they cognizant of what was really going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:390", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.301852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So Greg said that really impressed him because that was in May, and I guess his mission was in July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s neat. That’s neat.\\n\\n What did your family think about your involvement in the program and were they cognizant of what was really going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think. It’s funny, we were talking about that the other day. I think the kids’ sense was that Daddy went to work in the mornings and Daddy came home in the afternoons or maybe late at night, and, no, I don’t think they really had a big sense as to what was going on. Because a son of mine, another son, we were talking about that the other day, that they really didn’t. They’re starting to ask questions now about what was this like, what was that like. At the time, no, I don’t think they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe your oral history here you can pass it on to them and they can—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—see what you were involved with."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:392", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.22428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think. It’s funny, we were talking about that the other day. I think the kids’ sense was that Daddy went to work in the mornings and Daddy came home in the afternoons or maybe late at night, and, no, I don’t think they really had a big sense as to what was going on. Because a son of mine, another son, we were talking about that the other day, that they really didn’t. They’re starting to ask questions now about what was this like, what was that like. At the time, no, I don’t think they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe your oral history here you can pass it on to them and they can—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—see what you were involved with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, unless you have any other—did you have any other questions? Okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:394", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.2492, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—see what you were involved with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, unless you have any other—did you have any other questions? Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if you had any other thoughts from your early part of your career or any other comments you wanted to make there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:400", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 4.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just thought a while ago I might mention the evolution of splashdown parties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back during Gemini, it was all at the Singing Wheel, and it was all guys. There weren’t any lady flight controllers then. All guys. I think on Gemini XII, the Gemini Program is over, we’re getting ready to go into Apollo, and somebody said, “Let’s invite the secretaries to this one. They’ve never been to a splashdown party.” We had a gal that worked for us. She was Arnie’s secretary. She was an ex-Navy, I guess Navy was called WAVES [Women Auxiliary Volunteers for Emergency Service]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gosh, what is her name? Lived up off Edgebrook. But anyway, she came to our splashdown party and had the best time. So to my way of thinking, that was the start of the Apollo-era splashdown parties that then became famous.\\n\\n So then when Apollo came along, a lot of the hotels around the area got involved, because you had CBS and NBC and all the news places, and they’d open up and you had a press club usually over at the King’s Inn, and so then everybody started getting involved in splashdown parties. Gosh, I guess people from all over Houston were driving down here to partake in splashdown parties. It all started out at the Singing Wheel.\\n\\n That building is still there. We were talking yesterday about it’s too bad somebody doesn’t open it up again. It was a good place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly sounds like it. We’ve heard a lot of good times were had there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:402", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back during Gemini, it was all at the Singing Wheel, and it was all guys. There weren’t any lady flight controllers then. All guys. I think on Gemini XII, the Gemini Program is over, we’re getting ready to go into Apollo, and somebody said, “Let’s invite the secretaries to this one. They’ve never been to a splashdown party.” We had a gal that worked for us. She was Arnie’s secretary. She was an ex-Navy, I guess Navy was called WAVES [Women Auxiliary Volunteers for Emergency Service]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gosh, what is her name? Lived up off Edgebrook. But anyway, she came to our splashdown party and had the best time. So to my way of thinking, that was the start of the Apollo-era splashdown parties that then became famous.\\n\\n So then when Apollo came along, a lot of the hotels around the area got involved, because you had CBS and NBC and all the news places, and they’d open up and you had a press club usually over at the King’s Inn, and so then everybody started getting involved in splashdown parties. Gosh, I guess people from all over Houston were driving down here to partake in splashdown parties. It all started out at the Singing Wheel.\\n\\n That building is still there. We were talking yesterday about it’s too bad somebody doesn’t open it up again. It was a good place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly sounds like it. We’ve heard a lot of good times were had there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, yes. I see on your list you’ve interviewed [John S.] Llewellyn [Jr.], so Llewellyn could tell you a lot of Singing Wheel stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] Well, he definitely had a few stories. He did stick mostly to business-oriented approaches, but after a good hard day’s work you do have to unwind and relax a little bit."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:406", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, yes. I see on your list you’ve interviewed [John S.] Llewellyn [Jr.], so Llewellyn could tell you a lot of Singing Wheel stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] Well, he definitely had a few stories. He did stick mostly to business-oriented approaches, but after a good hard day’s work you do have to unwind and relax a little bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that, and that’s an interesting point. We worked hard, and I think we partied pretty hard too in the afternoons after we’d get through or early evenings or maybe even later some nights.\\n\\n The young folks nowadays don’t do that so much anymore. A good friend of mine who went on to become the Rockwell head out there within flight control, he said he asked a couple of his young female engineers, said, “Why doesn’t anybody go out and party like we used to do? We used to do that every afternoon. You’d always go stop and have a beer somewhere before you went home or something.” They told him there just wasn’t that much interest in it anymore, said the young guys nowadays go home and get on their computers and play games and stuff.\\n\\n But we had an awful lot of comradeship. That was a big, big part of our total operation, I think. We were a very, very close-knit group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Spent so much time working together and putting in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—extra hours, that that’s what your life revolved around."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:408", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that, and that’s an interesting point. We worked hard, and I think we partied pretty hard too in the afternoons after we’d get through or early evenings or maybe even later some nights.\\n\\n The young folks nowadays don’t do that so much anymore. A good friend of mine who went on to become the Rockwell head out there within flight control, he said he asked a couple of his young female engineers, said, “Why doesn’t anybody go out and party like we used to do? We used to do that every afternoon. You’d always go stop and have a beer somewhere before you went home or something.” They told him there just wasn’t that much interest in it anymore, said the young guys nowadays go home and get on their computers and play games and stuff.\\n\\n But we had an awful lot of comradeship. That was a big, big part of our total operation, I think. We were a very, very close-knit group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Spent so much time working together and putting in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—extra hours, that that’s what your life revolved around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly was an interesting group of people to work with."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:410", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—extra hours, that that’s what your life revolved around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly was an interesting group of people to work with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Bunch of good folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we appreciate you coming in—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:412", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly was an interesting group of people to work with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Bunch of good folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we appreciate you coming in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—to talk with us today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:414", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Bunch of good folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we appreciate you coming in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—to talk with us today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet. I’ve enjoyed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have as well. I’m glad you have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:416", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—to talk with us today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet. I’ve enjoyed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have as well. I’m glad you have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve made it very, very painless."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. We try to. Shouldn’t be any pain involved, just reflecting on your experiences. Certainly would like to follow up with you on Shuttle oriented—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00340:418", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet. I’ve enjoyed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have as well. I’m glad you have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve made it very, very painless."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. We try to. Shouldn’t be any pain involved, just reflecting on your experiences. Certainly would like to follow up with you on Shuttle oriented—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At whatever time would be good for you. I don’t know if you want to talk about that now or if you would want to look at your calendar."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00374:18", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 76.97566765941392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, in this organization, [the Johnson Space Center, then called the Manned Spacecraft Center]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That certainly changed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that that's necessary? Has it become so big and so complex that you can't learn fast enough to be [unclear]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I think that nowadays we can hire youngsters who learned in school what we had to learn on the fly, and they're very bright and they're very good, but we've got a very different problem. I'm not sure, for example, that Rocketdyne could have built the SSME [Space Shuttle Main Engines] had they not built the J-2 and the F-1. You had to have come up that learning curve.\\n\\n I don't think people realize how much better we do things [today]. We fly eight shuttle flights a year and handle the Mir Program and the space station development with less people than it took us to do two Apollo flights a year. Now, a lot of that is just taking advantage of the state of the art in data processing and what have you. We do thermal analyses on the shuttle which are far more complex than those we did on Apollo, and it would take us a year to do a mission on Apollo. They'll do a much more complex shuttle mission in a matter of a few days, but they've got big UNIX workstations and silicon graphics, what have you, to do it all, computational power and visual graphics engineering. So there's a tremendous increase in productivity that has gone on. And the shuttle is just a marvelous piece of equipment. It's probably the most complex thing we've ever built."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you see the X-33 and X-38 and local fly-back booster, those kind of things? [Telephone interruption]\\n\\n Do you really think so?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00374:36", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2851, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Piland's brother Joe, his older brother. I don't know where Joe is, but our personnel people would be able to help you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we're talking to Bob Piland."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Essentially, when we moved down here, we were scattered all over southeast Houston in various office buildings. Some of us were in what is now Oshman's warehouse at the corner of I-45 and OST. The office complex just to the south of that was occupied. The Lane Wells Building and buildings all over. If you know where there's a K-Mart and a shopping center on the west side of the freeway and the bayou, Simms Bayou there, that whole complex of apartments on the south side of Simms Bayou was all occupied by what is now MOD. We took up every habitable building at Ellington, and we had a pretty liberal definition of \"habitable,\" because some of them didn't have wall-to-wall floors. [Laughter]\\n\\n In effect, the [U.S. Army] Corps of Engineers built this place for us, but we had a lot of voice in how to lay out the campus, design the buildings, and see to it that there were enough conference rooms and all these kinds of things. So we didn't get a conventional government campus. And I think the guys who did it did a superb job. It's held up pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must be thirty some-odd years old and its in shape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Unfortunately we're not putting as much into maintenance as we should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we get all these guys interviewed in the next year and a half, I'll be happy. You know you're on our list—you know that, don't you—to be interviewed? That wasn't the purpose of this meeting, but I do have a couple of questions. What is that on there, that rocket?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00374:38", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.5389999999999997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Essentially, when we moved down here, we were scattered all over southeast Houston in various office buildings. Some of us were in what is now Oshman's warehouse at the corner of I-45 and OST. The office complex just to the south of that was occupied. The Lane Wells Building and buildings all over. If you know where there's a K-Mart and a shopping center on the west side of the freeway and the bayou, Simms Bayou there, that whole complex of apartments on the south side of Simms Bayou was all occupied by what is now MOD. We took up every habitable building at Ellington, and we had a pretty liberal definition of \"habitable,\" because some of them didn't have wall-to-wall floors. [Laughter]\\n\\n In effect, the [U.S. Army] Corps of Engineers built this place for us, but we had a lot of voice in how to lay out the campus, design the buildings, and see to it that there were enough conference rooms and all these kinds of things. So we didn't get a conventional government campus. And I think the guys who did it did a superb job. It's held up pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must be thirty some-odd years old and its in shape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Unfortunately we're not putting as much into maintenance as we should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we get all these guys interviewed in the next year and a half, I'll be happy. You know you're on our list—you know that, don't you—to be interviewed? That wasn't the purpose of this meeting, but I do have a couple of questions. What is that on there, that rocket?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was one of a number of configurations we looked at for building a heavy lift vehicle out of shuttle derived hardware."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is shuttle derived hardware—these aren't F-1s. These are SSMEs [Space Shuttle Main Engines]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00374:42", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was one of a number of configurations we looked at for building a heavy lift vehicle out of shuttle derived hardware."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is shuttle derived hardware—these aren't F-1s. These are SSMEs [Space Shuttle Main Engines]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "J-2s. They were just cartoons, if you will."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Unclear]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a fairly serious study, but just not exactly the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m always interested in talking about shuttle replacements. I think Jay Honeycutt puts it well. He says the Shuttle's the DC-3 of the human space flight. It'll be flying forever and ever, basically, until somebody wants something orders of magnitude better."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00374:44", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "J-2s. They were just cartoons, if you will."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Unclear]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a fairly serious study, but just not exactly the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m always interested in talking about shuttle replacements. I think Jay Honeycutt puts it well. He says the Shuttle's the DC-3 of the human space flight. It'll be flying forever and ever, basically, until somebody wants something orders of magnitude better."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the rocket equation is extraordinarily straightforward, and you really, really have to change materials technology if you're going to do anything significantly different. I don't think there's anything wrong in trying to design a single stage to orbit, but God didn't mean launch vehicles to be single stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The physics don't help to support it. What do you think about a fly-back booster? I was just wondering, because you've been around so long."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00852:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 48.10291186595421, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t get that sense at all. I believe that most of the senior management at NASA would have been bright enough or wise enough after the business with Ruth Bates Harris not to be unwise in either, if they felt anything like that. I didn’t sense that there was a Center or a Center Director who was particularly against the program or being dragged to participate or anything like that. Also I have a way of operating where I try to show people what is the vision that I have of them, no matter what they may do or say. So I might have been putting on them my perception of what they ought to have been.\\n\\n The one thing about it, really in this program you worked more closely with their deputies, you see. I knew all of them, and felt that they were very supportive of the program, and that they were interested in making sure NASA did a good job of correcting itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me how many people you started working with in 1974. Did those numbers change over the years? Did it ebb and flow as time moved along?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did change. I’d say it was 18 to 20 during those first years. The number grew to approximately 39 by 1992 that was because we added the Minority University Research. We had three divisions by the time I left. That had been a significant part of our effort in the EO Program. So it practically doubled."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about how the office was structured?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Certainly by the time I left there were three divisions. One was the Affirmative Action—I think now they call it the Affirmative Action and Diversity Division, but at the time I had the three divisions, one was the Affirmative Action and Evaluation Division, one was the Discrimination Complaint Division, and the third was the Minority University Research and Education Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you started working with the EO Council, did you come up with quotas? Or did you come up with ideas of how you might increase the numbers of women and minorities at these Centers in fields that women and minorities generally didn’t earn degrees in?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00852:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 21.994785184961643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve seen the first one. I hadn’t seen this one. How did you decide who to feature in these publications and why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably by working with NASA Centers and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory [JPL, Pasadena, California] to have as many different NASA installations or as many different NASA occupations represented and/or as many different ethnic groups represented as possible. See that one? I’ll let you read it, and I’m going to ask you what you think of it. So watch yourself. (I’m teasing you.)"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say I better start reading. There’s a lot of detail. That’s wonderful.\n\nWhat’s the name of that one?\n\nThis one is “Valuing and Attaining Workforce Diversity by Year 2000.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We wanted to brag a little bit but push people a little and also show the contrast in kinds of positions there. So you see a disabled person in the middle. Did you ever meet Benita Sidwell by chance?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that name doesn’t sound familiar."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00852:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.98121627773042, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We wanted to brag a little bit but push people a little and also show the contrast in kinds of positions there. So you see a disabled person in the middle. Did you ever meet Benita Sidwell by chance?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that name doesn’t sound familiar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She had held two significant jobs, personnel director out at Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and then a significant administrative position at Headquarters. Her picture is on the front. I believe that’s Dr. Bernard [A.] Harris, the astronaut in the middle. This brochure is intended to send a message that diversity is important, that NASA believes that. We prove it by the people who work for us, that we’ve selected. We have exciting programs, and we have a vision and goals. We have policies of fairness. We expect our employees also to carry out these same things that we say as an agency. Not only that, we’ve accomplished things. We can show that these are some examples of accomplishments that we’ve made. These are the kind of people we have working for us. They’re a percent of the workforce. There’s a powerful message by Admiral Richard [H.] Truly, the Administrator at that time, in terms of the objectives of the agency and what we were trying to accomplish. So we really were attempting to inform and persuade the public about what’s really going on at NASA. I’ll let you keep a copy of that because it marked in a way a renewed resolve that was going on at the agency. Because sometimes you get weary of the same GMSR [General Management Status Review] charts, the same message over and over again. We need to do it. We really do want you talented people to come, and we wanted to imbue a renewal of spirit. So that was the purpose of that. Be very open with people about what we were doing, what we were trying to do, and how we were going about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were happy with the outcome, the selection of Sally Ride and her group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Indeed, indeed, indeed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a great accomplishment at that point, I can imagine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00852:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.97810695223818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I digressed. Sorry about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That happens when we do interviews.\\n\\n One of the folks that we had interviewed at JSC talked about a change that he remembered when women started coming on board, becoming engineers, having a talk about how to work with women, which I thought was very interesting. I wondered if this was something that your office promoted."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It depends. Then what did he say? What was he taught?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know, he didn’t say. He remembered going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did he say “. . . and I was enlightened?” Did it have those kinds of tips? Or did he say “Imagine having to go to a training session where I had to learn how to work with women!” Do you recall? What did you interpret was behind that message? [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was positive. He remembered who had gone with him. He actually brought me the memo that talked about what they were doing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00852:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.08678550248686, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It depends. Then what did he say? What was he taught?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know, he didn’t say. He remembered going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did he say “. . . and I was enlightened?” Did it have those kinds of tips? Or did he say “Imagine having to go to a training session where I had to learn how to work with women!” Do you recall? What did you interpret was behind that message? [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was positive. He remembered who had gone with him. He actually brought me the memo that talked about what they were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did he say who the trainer was?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He did not, and I don’t remember that the memo identified the person. I thought it was interesting, because that really pointed out this cultural change that you were overseeing at NASA. I’m just curious how that idea was approached with these men who had been working with men for so long, and how to work with women or people of color."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 24.1092814071654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] Well, I thought that was very ambitious, and I hoped he had some inside information that I didn't have to make that. Although it was certainly something to have the support of the U.S. Government at the highest level for the NASA work, but I wasn't sure how realistic that time frame was. As I mentioned earlier, from that complex—you wonder whether even the computer aspects of a particular software could meet it. But obviously it was a challenge and it was rewarding to discover that that challenge was met."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember where you were when Apollo 11, when Neil [A.] Armstrong and Buzz [Edwin E.] Aldrin [Jr.] landed on the moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember exactly where I was, but I remember watching it closely on television and being very stimulated by the event. It represented a goal of achievement that everyone had been striving for all those years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I can go back a little bit to when you were being interviewed for a position at NASA, do you remember who you interviewed with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only vaguely. I suspect it was Chris Kraft and perhaps Max [Maxime A.] Faget. There were, I believe, three or four engineers from NASA. Of course, being nervous at the time, the names didn't stick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what they told you about the job you would do, or about the program at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 23.454757119072667, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember exactly where I was, but I remember watching it closely on television and being very stimulated by the event. It represented a goal of achievement that everyone had been striving for all those years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I can go back a little bit to when you were being interviewed for a position at NASA, do you remember who you interviewed with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only vaguely. I suspect it was Chris Kraft and perhaps Max [Maxime A.] Faget. There were, I believe, three or four engineers from NASA. Of course, being nervous at the time, the names didn't stick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what they told you about the job you would do, or about the program at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just to the extent of the need for the trajectory-type calculation and the computer work, which sounded quite appropriate. I think I might have even taken them on a tour of our computer installation at that time, even though it had been largely closed down. We were just a skeleton staff in the Engineering Department and the Computer Department. But the computer was still operational, because IBM wasn't sure what to do with it. They owned it and we rented it from them. I actually ran a few problems, more or less single-handed, for some of the engineers at that time on the 704 computer.\\n\\n So I did show the visitors around. We were very proud of it. As I say, it was also the only one of its kind in Canada. Canadian industry was always lagging a little bit behind U.S. industry, probably for financial reasons, as much as anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got to Virginia and you started working with NASA, were the Canadian engineers accepted, or did you keep together in a group? How was that relationship between [the AVRO] engineers and NASA [engineers]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.391185976333887, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, anything that was available was put at our disposal. Early on, we did acquire our own small computer. Even a small computer in those days probably cost about $100,000. So it was felt that we needed that and it became available soon after. So, yes, we were very happy with that arrangement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Computer technology has just grown exponentially in the last thirty years. Can you give us some kind of comparison of what type of computers you were working with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess the best analogy is the million-dollar computers, as they cost then, the IBM 704 and the IBM 7090. Those had a power comparable to what you now get in a desktop computer, a personal computer. So it's hard to visualize the tremendous advances that have taken place, particularly not only memory capacity, speed, but finally in programming software. It's finally caught up to where you feel a lot more confident when you're using a computer these days. You don't have to worry about what is going to happen. We were always worried about when the computer might break down or the programs might break down at a critical time. So that was why we used extensive backup, one computer supporting another, so you could switch over if that became necessary. But that, again, added expense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you feel confident going into each mission, you and your colleagues, that what had been done was correct? Did you have that confidence in your computers and in your work at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we'd run so many calculations and did so many tests and cross-checks in cooperation with the trajectory specialists, we knew that it was behaving the way it should. As I say, we actually did see the capsule come over the horizon when it was calculated to come over. That's the most tangible type of reassurance that things are working properly. It was very impressive, the way that worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you feel about NASA's use of computers at that time and how the space program helped advance computer technology?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 25.174303674486275, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we'd run so many calculations and did so many tests and cross-checks in cooperation with the trajectory specialists, we knew that it was behaving the way it should. As I say, we actually did see the capsule come over the horizon when it was calculated to come over. That's the most tangible type of reassurance that things are working properly. It was very impressive, the way that worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you feel about NASA's use of computers at that time and how the space program helped advance computer technology?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's no question that the space program put big demands on computer research, both for the ground-based computers that I was involved with, but even more so for the spaceborne computers, the computers on the spacecraft. Those had to be miniaturized to a much greater extent, obviously, made very lightweight and very reliable. That was where the big demand on the computer research was put.\\n\\n There were many, many talented laboratories working on those kind of problems, and it was remarkable how quickly the miniaturization actually did take place in the circuitry. You could see it from month to month, almost, the circuits getting smaller and smaller. At the same time they became more reliable because of the different manufacturing techniques that were used to produce the circuits. So that was very impressive to see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You stayed involved with computers after you left NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you tell us about what you did after leaving NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:52", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You are going to follow his launch? I guess it's next week."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes, that will be something to see, to see how he does react at his stage of things. I'm sure he'll do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we're looking forward to seeing it.\\n\\n When you were younger, when you were growing up, was there anything that you were doing at that point in time that led to your further interest, like working on model airplanes, or did you really enjoy certain studies in school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess mathematics was an interest of mine and it came fairly easily. I was fortunate to have a teacher in high school mathematics who was willing to spend extra time with me after school and give me problems that were outside the regular role. I learned quite a bit that way. That may have been what led me to take mathematics at the university. But as I say, even as an undergraduate, one could never visualize that there would be a demand for mathematicians through the use of computers. So that was a very pleasant surprise in later years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all the questions that I have.\n\nBefore we close, I think you have several papers and photos out. Are there any of those that you would like to tell us about or explain to us."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, that's one computer. It fills a small warehouse. They're all connected together by cables under the floor. It's a false floor. The operator is in one position doing the control work. The memory is a separate box. Then there are the half a dozen magnetic tape units. The card-reader, the printer was just an old tabulating machine that IBM attached as the main output device. So you had to have all these pieces working together smoothly to run a program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people did it take to keep it operating and running smoothly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can see in this photo, typically at least two dozen people. There's John Shoosmith in the center, and myself over on the side. These were the programmers, operators, and maintenance staff, the maintenance staff supplied by IBM on a permanent basis. They essentially had to live with the computer to keep it running. It required daily maintenance and changing the vacuum tubes that were used as circuit elements. Well, that's what helped contribute to the expense of running these computers, as well.\\n\\n You can see the dramatic difference not only in speed and price, but in size, when you go from the warehouse-size computer. This was small. When I visited other aircraft companies, they would have two or three of these computers all together in a huge warehouse. So it was an expensive investment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you would like to share with us before we close?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd just like to say that it's been a very satisfying experience to be able to reminisce with you. Your questions are very appropriate and stimulating. As I said earlier, I'm glad to have been invited to participate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've enjoyed hearing your stories. We really have. They'll be a valuable addition to our oral history collection."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00107:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can see in this photo, typically at least two dozen people. There's John Shoosmith in the center, and myself over on the side. These were the programmers, operators, and maintenance staff, the maintenance staff supplied by IBM on a permanent basis. They essentially had to live with the computer to keep it running. It required daily maintenance and changing the vacuum tubes that were used as circuit elements. Well, that's what helped contribute to the expense of running these computers, as well.\\n\\n You can see the dramatic difference not only in speed and price, but in size, when you go from the warehouse-size computer. This was small. When I visited other aircraft companies, they would have two or three of these computers all together in a huge warehouse. So it was an expensive investment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you would like to share with us before we close?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd just like to say that it's been a very satisfying experience to be able to reminisce with you. Your questions are very appropriate and stimulating. As I said earlier, I'm glad to have been invited to participate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've enjoyed hearing your stories. We really have. They'll be a valuable addition to our oral history collection."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.316677755426937, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, partly it was the Marine Corps, which I think might surprise a lot of people, but I was in the Marine Corps before the Peace Corps, and that made me sort of aware of what a lot of the rest of the world was like. I was stationed in Okinawa for my last year and a half and seeing Okinawa itself. But I guess the thing that really impressed me was we had a big exercise and landing exercise in Formosa or Taiwan or whatever name you want to go about. And I was just amazed at the poverty that I saw there. Now I had grown up in a pretty poor section of Baltimore and we weren't rich, but that was a whole other, whole other thing. So it was that, I think seeing what some of the rest of the world was like, and then a girl that I was dating was going to somewhere in Africa, not with Peace Corps, with some other volunteer thing. And she sort of convinced me, why don't you go ahead and apply to Peace Corps. So I did and I got in and went to training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so what did your family? Well, I guess how long had you been in the Marines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was in Marine Corps for three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three years. So you were out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three years plus three months of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was all post-college? Had you gone to college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.129641950474372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was in Marine Corps for three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three years. So you were out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three years plus three months of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was all post-college? Had you gone to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had graduated from Dartmouth with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in biology. And then went in the Marine Corps, came back, and went to graduate school at Yale, where I got a master's in forestry. And then after that I joined Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So by that time, your parents knew you were a world traveler. How did they react to your idea of going into the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.921824389415967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three years plus three months of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was all post-college? Had you gone to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had graduated from Dartmouth with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in biology. And then went in the Marine Corps, came back, and went to graduate school at Yale, where I got a master's in forestry. And then after that I joined Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So by that time, your parents knew you were a world traveler. How did they react to your idea of going into the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my mother, I think. It was only really my father, he was generally happy with whatever I did. But my mother had seen some ads about Peace Corps paying $75 a day to recruiters, and she wrote a letter to Kennedy complaining that her son was worth a lot more than these guys. And so I was, in a way I was sort of surprised I ever heard from Peace Corps after that. I mean, she was not happy about it. I think once I went and so forth and I think she was happy. But she didn't like the fact that I'd worked hard to get all this education and was wasting my time doing something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And clearly your girlfriend thought it was a good idea. What did your other friends say about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.913138210462186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had graduated from Dartmouth with a bachelor's degree in English and a minor in biology. And then went in the Marine Corps, came back, and went to graduate school at Yale, where I got a master's in forestry. And then after that I joined Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So by that time, your parents knew you were a world traveler. How did they react to your idea of going into the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my mother, I think. It was only really my father, he was generally happy with whatever I did. But my mother had seen some ads about Peace Corps paying $75 a day to recruiters, and she wrote a letter to Kennedy complaining that her son was worth a lot more than these guys. And so I was, in a way I was sort of surprised I ever heard from Peace Corps after that. I mean, she was not happy about it. I think once I went and so forth and I think she was happy. But she didn't like the fact that I'd worked hard to get all this education and was wasting my time doing something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And clearly your girlfriend thought it was a good idea. What did your other friends say about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I can't remember anybody saying much of anything about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was early in the Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.792375789402428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my mother, I think. It was only really my father, he was generally happy with whatever I did. But my mother had seen some ads about Peace Corps paying $75 a day to recruiters, and she wrote a letter to Kennedy complaining that her son was worth a lot more than these guys. And so I was, in a way I was sort of surprised I ever heard from Peace Corps after that. I mean, she was not happy about it. I think once I went and so forth and I think she was happy. But she didn't like the fact that I'd worked hard to get all this education and was wasting my time doing something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And clearly your girlfriend thought it was a good idea. What did your other friends say about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I can't remember anybody saying much of anything about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was early in the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we were the second agricultural group in Ecuador. The first one was a year before that and they were, I think they were either the first group in Ecuador or very close to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied for the Peace Corps and did you hear very soon from them or did you have to wait a long time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.769306432669364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I can't remember anybody saying much of anything about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was early in the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we were the second agricultural group in Ecuador. The first one was a year before that and they were, I think they were either the first group in Ecuador or very close to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied for the Peace Corps and did you hear very soon from them or did you have to wait a long time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember now how long the wait was. It was, I guess, in a way longer than I had expected. And I don't even remember now for sure exactly when I heard from them. But I guess I was surprised that it was Ecuador. They had been advertising that they needed foresters in Nepal, and I was pretty sure that's where I was going and I was really looking forward to going to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Climbing mountains, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.74367381407707, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we were the second agricultural group in Ecuador. The first one was a year before that and they were, I think they were either the first group in Ecuador or very close to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied for the Peace Corps and did you hear very soon from them or did you have to wait a long time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember now how long the wait was. It was, I guess, in a way longer than I had expected. And I don't even remember now for sure exactly when I heard from them. But I guess I was surprised that it was Ecuador. They had been advertising that they needed foresters in Nepal, and I was pretty sure that's where I was going and I was really looking forward to going to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Climbing mountains, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I had written a big English paper on mountaineering in the Himalayas, so I was, you know, this was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were ready."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.49297090453008, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember now how long the wait was. It was, I guess, in a way longer than I had expected. And I don't even remember now for sure exactly when I heard from them. But I guess I was surprised that it was Ecuador. They had been advertising that they needed foresters in Nepal, and I was pretty sure that's where I was going and I was really looking forward to going to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Climbing mountains, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I had written a big English paper on mountaineering in the Himalayas, so I was, you know, this was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were ready."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was ready to go. But anyway. And then when I applied there was a thing on the application, is there anywhere you don't want to go, as well as where you want to go. And I decided I wasn't going to say I didn't want to go to Latin America because I just thought that might not be a very good idea if I wanted to get into Peace Corps. I didn't really, I didn't want to go to Latin America, and I was pretty sure I would not go to Latin America because I didn't speak Spanish. I didn't speak Nepalese either, but I figured they weren't going to find very many people who did. But I was sure they would never send me Latin America cause I didn't speak Spanish. Well, sure enough, that's where I ended up, and I'd always been very happy that I did. My wife is Ecuadorian. I didn't meet her as a Peace Corps volunteer, but I met her later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, that's another story. So Ecuador. And I guess there are mountains in Ecuador."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.436634338366755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I had written a big English paper on mountaineering in the Himalayas, so I was, you know, this was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were ready."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was ready to go. But anyway. And then when I applied there was a thing on the application, is there anywhere you don't want to go, as well as where you want to go. And I decided I wasn't going to say I didn't want to go to Latin America because I just thought that might not be a very good idea if I wanted to get into Peace Corps. I didn't really, I didn't want to go to Latin America, and I was pretty sure I would not go to Latin America because I didn't speak Spanish. I didn't speak Nepalese either, but I figured they weren't going to find very many people who did. But I was sure they would never send me Latin America cause I didn't speak Spanish. Well, sure enough, that's where I ended up, and I'd always been very happy that I did. My wife is Ecuadorian. I didn't meet her as a Peace Corps volunteer, but I met her later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, that's another story. So Ecuador. And I guess there are mountains in Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Snow covered mountains."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got to go, um, did you get to go climbing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.378560911563893, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Snow covered mountains."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got to go, um, did you get to go climbing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I didn't really. I guess. A buddy of mine. Well, my third year in Ecuador, I was living in Quito and I lived up on the side of Pichincha. And I had kept saying, I want to climb this one day. And our Heifer Project person who was sort of responsible for overseeing me or visiting me or whatever, he climbed mountains. He was, I mean, he was a rescuer in all kinds of and he was Ecuadorian. Anyway, I asked him, what's the best route up Mount Pichincha? He said, just start at the bottom and walk up. So I started at my house and we walked up. And that was not the best route because we got up to what I thought was going to be close to the top and it was going to go on and on and on forever. So we turned, we sort of looped around the big chasm and went out and looked around and stuff. But we didn't, we never got to the top of it. But that's all the climbing I really did. I lived in the mountains."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's back up a little bit. We're jumping ahead. You got selected. Where was your training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, our training was at Montana State College, in those days. It's now Montana State University. And I think the group, the agricultural group the year before us had also trained there. And I don't know what else to say about it. I mean, it was very good training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it good training? Talk about the language training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.701927051313449, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, our training was at Montana State College, in those days. It's now Montana State University. And I think the group, the agricultural group the year before us had also trained there. And I don't know what else to say about it. I mean, it was very good training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it good training? Talk about the language training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The language training was especially good, I think. They had the head of the language department, the Spanish department, from the University of Arizona was there to lead it. And let's see, my first teacher, I'm not sure where he was from. But in all the classes, we had a teacher and an assistant, and that teacher's assistant was a Cuban, um, you know, what, ran away from Cuba?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Refugee, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Refugee. He'd been a pharmacist there, and his wife had been a, I think an English teacher or something. You know, she'd been a teacher, so he was there as an assistant. His wife was in charge of a group. And I started out in his group, which was the bottom end of the language ability, Group H I think it was. After about a month, I moved to into Group B or C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hey, that's moving up."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.224601297917836, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Refugee. He'd been a pharmacist there, and his wife had been a, I think an English teacher or something. You know, she'd been a teacher, so he was there as an assistant. His wife was in charge of a group. And I started out in his group, which was the bottom end of the language ability, Group H I think it was. After about a month, I moved to into Group B or C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hey, that's moving up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was his wife's group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I was happy. I thought I didn't, I mean. Well, pronunciation was my biggest, biggest problem was just learning to pronounce what was it, N? I remember that I couldn't say el, I always said L. And once the head of the language program knew about that, any time he'd see me, he'd say, say el. And I'd say, L."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've learned how to say el?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.582890331019817, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was his wife's group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I was happy. I thought I didn't, I mean. Well, pronunciation was my biggest, biggest problem was just learning to pronounce what was it, N? I remember that I couldn't say el, I always said L. And once the head of the language program knew about that, any time he'd see me, he'd say, say el. And I'd say, L."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've learned how to say el?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll talk about your many years in Latin America."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.869878145577573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I was happy. I thought I didn't, I mean. Well, pronunciation was my biggest, biggest problem was just learning to pronounce what was it, N? I remember that I couldn't say el, I always said L. And once the head of the language program knew about that, any time he'd see me, he'd say, say el. And I'd say, L."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've learned how to say el?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll talk about your many years in Latin America."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, so the language training was very good. Our technical training, I mean, there were about seven foresters in the group. The rest were mostly all AB generalists who had grown up on farms and they were training for agriculture. And we got the same training the aggies did. I learned how to vaccinate chickens for Newcastle. And I think that's the only thing I think I ever used once I became a volunteer. I did help some of the other volunteers vaccinating chickens. But we learned a lot of other things about animals and plants and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But no forestry?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.299864606197303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll talk about your many years in Latin America."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, so the language training was very good. Our technical training, I mean, there were about seven foresters in the group. The rest were mostly all AB generalists who had grown up on farms and they were training for agriculture. And we got the same training the aggies did. I learned how to vaccinate chickens for Newcastle. And I think that's the only thing I think I ever used once I became a volunteer. I did help some of the other volunteers vaccinating chickens. But we learned a lot of other things about animals and plants and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But no forestry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But no forestry. There was nobody there that knew anything about forestry in Ecuador, so we didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you had a master's degree in forestry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.888738451330337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, so the language training was very good. Our technical training, I mean, there were about seven foresters in the group. The rest were mostly all AB generalists who had grown up on farms and they were training for agriculture. And we got the same training the aggies did. I learned how to vaccinate chickens for Newcastle. And I think that's the only thing I think I ever used once I became a volunteer. I did help some of the other volunteers vaccinating chickens. But we learned a lot of other things about animals and plants and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But no forestry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But no forestry. There was nobody there that knew anything about forestry in Ecuador, so we didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you had a master's degree in forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, there were a couple of us that did. But that's, you know, what we needed to learn was what's going on in Ecuador and the way they made their new."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And did you get cultural orientation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.32082050147815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But no forestry. There was nobody there that knew anything about forestry in Ecuador, so we didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you had a master's degree in forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, there were a couple of us that did. But that's, you know, what we needed to learn was what's going on in Ecuador and the way they made their new."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And did you get cultural orientation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we had, yeah. And let's see. Well, we had a lot of ex, well, they were Latin Americans studying in the United States that were there for helping us with the cultural training. And I remember, particularly as one girl from Peru whose parents owned big haciendas and we got talking about land reform and stuff. And she was in tears because we were talking about her family and what horrible people they were, essentially, that they owned all this land and they had all these native people working for them as slaves, essentially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, she didn't like that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.912022779420168, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, there were a couple of us that did. But that's, you know, what we needed to learn was what's going on in Ecuador and the way they made their new."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And did you get cultural orientation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we had, yeah. And let's see. Well, we had a lot of ex, well, they were Latin Americans studying in the United States that were there for helping us with the cultural training. And I remember, particularly as one girl from Peru whose parents owned big haciendas and we got talking about land reform and stuff. And she was in tears because we were talking about her family and what horrible people they were, essentially, that they owned all this land and they had all these native people working for them as slaves, essentially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, she didn't like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. And I can understand that. She hadn't looked at her country through those eyes before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a big cultural shift for her as well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.680025310466853, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we had, yeah. And let's see. Well, we had a lot of ex, well, they were Latin Americans studying in the United States that were there for helping us with the cultural training. And I remember, particularly as one girl from Peru whose parents owned big haciendas and we got talking about land reform and stuff. And she was in tears because we were talking about her family and what horrible people they were, essentially, that they owned all this land and they had all these native people working for them as slaves, essentially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, she didn't like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. And I can understand that. She hadn't looked at her country through those eyes before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a big cultural shift for her as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, for her, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe more than for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.644472567185392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. And I can understand that. She hadn't looked at her country through those eyes before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a big cultural shift for her as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, for her, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe more than for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More for her than for us, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is interesting. So you were in Montana. Did you, I guess you, did you have any work experience there? Or at that point in '63, there weren't, were there, it was all academic or was there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.271636185761547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, for her, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe more than for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More for her than for us, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is interesting. So you were in Montana. Did you, I guess you, did you have any work experience there? Or at that point in '63, there weren't, were there, it was all academic or was there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had worked the summer for the U.S. Forest Service in Pennsylvania and Maryland and, I guess, New Jersey, doing forest survey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But part of the training, there was no work experience, no forestry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.857373539735052, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More for her than for us, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is interesting. So you were in Montana. Did you, I guess you, did you have any work experience there? Or at that point in '63, there weren't, were there, it was all academic or was there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had worked the summer for the U.S. Forest Service in Pennsylvania and Maryland and, I guess, New Jersey, doing forest survey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But part of the training, there was no work experience, no forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. The closest thing there was, I would say, an experience for foresters was we had weekend camp outs up in the mountains and we were the only. Well, not the only ones, but the foresters always looked forward to the weekend because we got away from Spanish class and we could go out in the woods. Some of the rest of these of the AB generalists were not happy about going out in the woods."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that was, I guess, the nod towards forestry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.508192821927835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had worked the summer for the U.S. Forest Service in Pennsylvania and Maryland and, I guess, New Jersey, doing forest survey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But part of the training, there was no work experience, no forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. The closest thing there was, I would say, an experience for foresters was we had weekend camp outs up in the mountains and we were the only. Well, not the only ones, but the foresters always looked forward to the weekend because we got away from Spanish class and we could go out in the woods. Some of the rest of these of the AB generalists were not happy about going out in the woods."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that was, I guess, the nod towards forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't done for forestry. It was just done for something to do on the weekend that was different from what we did the rest of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.897992024364262, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. The closest thing there was, I would say, an experience for foresters was we had weekend camp outs up in the mountains and we were the only. Well, not the only ones, but the foresters always looked forward to the weekend because we got away from Spanish class and we could go out in the woods. Some of the rest of these of the AB generalists were not happy about going out in the woods."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that was, I guess, the nod towards forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't done for forestry. It was just done for something to do on the weekend that was different from what we did the rest of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing I forgot to mention on language training was that then we had to speak Spanish at lunchtime. And so we would always get over there, and it was usually our assistant person was standing at the table with us and we would get over there and eat as fast as we could and get up and go. So we didn't have to speak much Spanish. One day for some reason I had to go late. And so by the time I got there, everybody else was gone. I learned, I think, more Spanish in that 15 minutes than I did in any other 15 minutes in the language program. I learned the names for all the seafoods just about. He found out I was from Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay was there. And so I learned, you know, crabs and shrimp and fish and all kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes the informal training is the best, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.442213360404736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't done for forestry. It was just done for something to do on the weekend that was different from what we did the rest of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing I forgot to mention on language training was that then we had to speak Spanish at lunchtime. And so we would always get over there, and it was usually our assistant person was standing at the table with us and we would get over there and eat as fast as we could and get up and go. So we didn't have to speak much Spanish. One day for some reason I had to go late. And so by the time I got there, everybody else was gone. I learned, I think, more Spanish in that 15 minutes than I did in any other 15 minutes in the language program. I learned the names for all the seafoods just about. He found out I was from Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay was there. And so I learned, you know, crabs and shrimp and fish and all kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes the informal training is the best, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely. So how long was the training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.713570400449706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing I forgot to mention on language training was that then we had to speak Spanish at lunchtime. And so we would always get over there, and it was usually our assistant person was standing at the table with us and we would get over there and eat as fast as we could and get up and go. So we didn't have to speak much Spanish. One day for some reason I had to go late. And so by the time I got there, everybody else was gone. I learned, I think, more Spanish in that 15 minutes than I did in any other 15 minutes in the language program. I learned the names for all the seafoods just about. He found out I was from Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay was there. And so I learned, you know, crabs and shrimp and fish and all kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes the informal training is the best, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely. So how long was the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, see, we had two months in Montana State University and then we were the first volunteers to ever train in Mexico. And we went to Pátzcuaro, Mexico. We had to tell everybody we were students from the Montana State University. We couldn't tell them we were Peace Corps trainees because Mexico didn't want have anything to do Peace Corps in those days, supposedly. But we got there and we would say we were students from Montana State University. And they're like, oh, you're the Peace Corps people. So everybody in the area knew. And I don't know why, but I mean, we were all assigned. Pátzcuaro was a sort of training center for community development people from, not just Mexico, from all over the place in Latin America. And we all had, some of them volunteered to stick around during their time off and help us with our training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what happened there, was it language training basically?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.903967111610784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely. So how long was the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, see, we had two months in Montana State University and then we were the first volunteers to ever train in Mexico. And we went to Pátzcuaro, Mexico. We had to tell everybody we were students from the Montana State University. We couldn't tell them we were Peace Corps trainees because Mexico didn't want have anything to do Peace Corps in those days, supposedly. But we got there and we would say we were students from Montana State University. And they're like, oh, you're the Peace Corps people. So everybody in the area knew. And I don't know why, but I mean, we were all assigned. Pátzcuaro was a sort of training center for community development people from, not just Mexico, from all over the place in Latin America. And we all had, some of them volunteered to stick around during their time off and help us with our training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what happened there, was it language training basically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was, like it was. Well, it was mostly language, but we also we did spend a week or two in a small village with our volunteer person. And I always remember that we, there were three of us foresters were all sent the same small village, which was in a almost a swamp. And I think the people in the town felt sorry for us because there weren't any trees anywhere. So one day, and the men would usually go off somewhere to work, and they came back that day with a bunch of trees that they had pulled up for us to plant. And we did plant them, not having much hope that they were ever going to survive in that water laden soil. And then so we mixed straw and stuff with the soil thinking that might help the drainage. And then the next, I think it was a couple of days later, we watched them make adobe. It was almost the same thing we had done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know whether the trees made it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.983493980261706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they didn't. There was no way the trees were going to survive in that I think. The adobe might have made it worse, but it wasn't going to make any difference. They were, you know, they weren't trees for swamps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you spent, how long were you in Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A month."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don't remember now all. I know it was a week or two we were out there in the village. I can't recall what we did the rest of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you react to, well, I guess you had been to Taiwan, but how did you react to Mexico? A kid from Baltimore."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.092771089179672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A month."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don't remember now all. I know it was a week or two we were out there in the village. I can't recall what we did the rest of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you react to, well, I guess you had been to Taiwan, but how did you react to Mexico? A kid from Baltimore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I liked it. I liked the food, and I think that's one of the things, before I went, my mother said, you're not going to like it, you know, you're so picky about your food. I said, oh, I love Mexican food. And she says, well, how do you know? I had some in the Philippines. Well, Spanish food I had in the Philippines, but it wasn't Mexican. And Mexican's very different. But anyway, I mean, I really did. I liked the food. I liked the people. I wasn't thinking that much about the poverty at that time, but it was nothing anywhere near as bad as what I saw and what I'd seen in Taiwan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was really, the culture shock was in Taiwan."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.325301210199635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don't remember now all. I know it was a week or two we were out there in the village. I can't recall what we did the rest of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you react to, well, I guess you had been to Taiwan, but how did you react to Mexico? A kid from Baltimore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I liked it. I liked the food, and I think that's one of the things, before I went, my mother said, you're not going to like it, you know, you're so picky about your food. I said, oh, I love Mexican food. And she says, well, how do you know? I had some in the Philippines. Well, Spanish food I had in the Philippines, but it wasn't Mexican. And Mexican's very different. But anyway, I mean, I really did. I liked the food. I liked the people. I wasn't thinking that much about the poverty at that time, but it was nothing anywhere near as bad as what I saw and what I'd seen in Taiwan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was really, the culture shock was in Taiwan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, partly because I wasn't prepared for it. And part of it was, you know, we're running our tanks over people's rice fields."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And other issues like that. That's another whole interview we won't get into."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.472556900221816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I liked it. I liked the food, and I think that's one of the things, before I went, my mother said, you're not going to like it, you know, you're so picky about your food. I said, oh, I love Mexican food. And she says, well, how do you know? I had some in the Philippines. Well, Spanish food I had in the Philippines, but it wasn't Mexican. And Mexican's very different. But anyway, I mean, I really did. I liked the food. I liked the people. I wasn't thinking that much about the poverty at that time, but it was nothing anywhere near as bad as what I saw and what I'd seen in Taiwan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was really, the culture shock was in Taiwan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, partly because I wasn't prepared for it. And part of it was, you know, we're running our tanks over people's rice fields."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And other issues like that. That's another whole interview we won't get into."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was sort of surprised the Marine Corps didn't seem to. Well, the government had said, you know, come in and do what you need to do. So we did. They gave us the southern end of the island, which is where the real Formosans lived. Not the mainland Chinese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. OK. So after Mexico, did you then go home or did you go directly to Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.636174333579795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, partly because I wasn't prepared for it. And part of it was, you know, we're running our tanks over people's rice fields."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And other issues like that. That's another whole interview we won't get into."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was sort of surprised the Marine Corps didn't seem to. Well, the government had said, you know, come in and do what you need to do. So we did. They gave us the southern end of the island, which is where the real Formosans lived. Not the mainland Chinese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. OK. So after Mexico, did you then go home or did you go directly to Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we flew into Dallas. In fact, the one thing I forgot, well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no, go ahead. We can go back."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.817971481755327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was sort of surprised the Marine Corps didn't seem to. Well, the government had said, you know, come in and do what you need to do. So we did. They gave us the southern end of the island, which is where the real Formosans lived. Not the mainland Chinese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. OK. So after Mexico, did you then go home or did you go directly to Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we flew into Dallas. In fact, the one thing I forgot, well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no, go ahead. We can go back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we flew into Dallas, where there were three lines, well, there were people there waiting with papers for us or something to tell us whether we had been selected in or out or were in between. So there were three people, three people there. But I was also, I had written to my uncle who lived in Dallas. And so he and my aunt were both there to meet me at the airport and I was going to spend the night there with them. And so I was busy greeting them and didn't pay much attention to where all where everybody was going. And when that was all done, I went over to find somebody, which I thought was the line that had to accept the people who were accepted. And they said, well, no, we don't have anything for you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was the deselected group, the people who are not selected?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.131079424172585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we flew into Dallas. In fact, the one thing I forgot, well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no, go ahead. We can go back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we flew into Dallas, where there were three lines, well, there were people there waiting with papers for us or something to tell us whether we had been selected in or out or were in between. So there were three people, three people there. But I was also, I had written to my uncle who lived in Dallas. And so he and my aunt were both there to meet me at the airport and I was going to spend the night there with them. And so I was busy greeting them and didn't pay much attention to where all where everybody was going. And when that was all done, I went over to find somebody, which I thought was the line that had to accept the people who were accepted. And they said, well, no, we don't have anything for you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was the deselected group, the people who are not selected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, I mean, in the end, I had gone to the right group, or right line, but I had. So they sent me to the other ones in and I wasn't in any of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so they just had forgotten your name completely?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.256754915747315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we flew into Dallas, where there were three lines, well, there were people there waiting with papers for us or something to tell us whether we had been selected in or out or were in between. So there were three people, three people there. But I was also, I had written to my uncle who lived in Dallas. And so he and my aunt were both there to meet me at the airport and I was going to spend the night there with them. And so I was busy greeting them and didn't pay much attention to where all where everybody was going. And when that was all done, I went over to find somebody, which I thought was the line that had to accept the people who were accepted. And they said, well, no, we don't have anything for you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was the deselected group, the people who are not selected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, I mean, in the end, I had gone to the right group, or right line, but I had. So they sent me to the other ones in and I wasn't in any of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so they just had forgotten your name completely?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know what had happened. But one thing I wanted to mention there was also was during training, there were two times when we had these selection days, which I don't think they ever did much of that afterwards, but they would have a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists up there and training. They would go on the weekend hikes with us and they were some more people you tried to shy away from. You didn't want to let them get to know you. And then there was the day that was selection and it was the head of the training program, Dr. Dunbar, who had to run around and give everybody their slips of paper. And so again, we were watching for him and you'd cross the street to stay away from him. But they always caught up with you. And people were, during training, I mean, during the training program at those two times before the end, given slips and they were gone by the next day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were many people deselected?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.507505461941461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, I mean, in the end, I had gone to the right group, or right line, but I had. So they sent me to the other ones in and I wasn't in any of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so they just had forgotten your name completely?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know what had happened. But one thing I wanted to mention there was also was during training, there were two times when we had these selection days, which I don't think they ever did much of that afterwards, but they would have a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists up there and training. They would go on the weekend hikes with us and they were some more people you tried to shy away from. You didn't want to let them get to know you. And then there was the day that was selection and it was the head of the training program, Dr. Dunbar, who had to run around and give everybody their slips of paper. And so again, we were watching for him and you'd cross the street to stay away from him. But they always caught up with you. And people were, during training, I mean, during the training program at those two times before the end, given slips and they were gone by the next day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were many people deselected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About a third of the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Do you have any idea why?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.563894957712733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know what had happened. But one thing I wanted to mention there was also was during training, there were two times when we had these selection days, which I don't think they ever did much of that afterwards, but they would have a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists up there and training. They would go on the weekend hikes with us and they were some more people you tried to shy away from. You didn't want to let them get to know you. And then there was the day that was selection and it was the head of the training program, Dr. Dunbar, who had to run around and give everybody their slips of paper. And so again, we were watching for him and you'd cross the street to stay away from him. But they always caught up with you. And people were, during training, I mean, during the training program at those two times before the end, given slips and they were gone by the next day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were many people deselected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About a third of the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Do you have any idea why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, most of them I didn't know why. There was one guy from Georgia, and we had, I think, one black guy in the group from Oklahoma. And a guy from Georgia was just always after him. And for most of us, the guy that we really loved, we really loved this guy from Oklahoma. We would go, when we were in Mexico, we went out beer drinking with him and so forth. But anyway, that guy from Georgia, I wasn't surprised when he was taken out. He just, you know, he'd grown up in the wrong culture. But others I can remember, OK, at the end, there was a girl that I guess they, well, they asked her. Do you think you would like, you're going to like living in Ecuador for two years? And they were going to let her go, I think, if she said yes, but in the end, she said no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So she basically selected herself out."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.737661064125259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About a third of the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Do you have any idea why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, most of them I didn't know why. There was one guy from Georgia, and we had, I think, one black guy in the group from Oklahoma. And a guy from Georgia was just always after him. And for most of us, the guy that we really loved, we really loved this guy from Oklahoma. We would go, when we were in Mexico, we went out beer drinking with him and so forth. But anyway, that guy from Georgia, I wasn't surprised when he was taken out. He just, you know, he'd grown up in the wrong culture. But others I can remember, OK, at the end, there was a girl that I guess they, well, they asked her. Do you think you would like, you're going to like living in Ecuador for two years? And they were going to let her go, I think, if she said yes, but in the end, she said no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So she basically selected herself out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Now I'd met her. She was the first one on our training group that I met. I met her on the airplane on the way out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe she ended up somewhere else."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.490939585339826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Now I'd met her. She was the first one on our training group that I met. I met her on the airplane on the way out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe she ended up somewhere else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think she ever got Peace Corps, but she did write to a lot of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So she was interested in how we were doing and things, but I guess she decided that she just didn't want to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To do that. All right. So you got selected and you were in Dallas and then you just headed off to Ecuador or what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.54548842815536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think she ever got Peace Corps, but she did write to a lot of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So she was interested in how we were doing and things, but I guess she decided that she just didn't want to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To do that. All right. So you got selected and you were in Dallas and then you just headed off to Ecuador or what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. Then we went home for, oh, I think it was one week or two weeks. And then all met at Kennedy Airport in New York and got on our Pan Am flight to Quito."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And do you remember how many were in your group by that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.717209364617068, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So she was interested in how we were doing and things, but I guess she decided that she just didn't want to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To do that. All right. So you got selected and you were in Dallas and then you just headed off to Ecuador or what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. Then we went home for, oh, I think it was one week or two weeks. And then all met at Kennedy Airport in New York and got on our Pan Am flight to Quito."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And do you remember how many were in your group by that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think about 30 of us. But I don't remember for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so then you get to, you don't have to tell me about the flight, you get to Quito."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.019121516241187, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. Then we went home for, oh, I think it was one week or two weeks. And then all met at Kennedy Airport in New York and got on our Pan Am flight to Quito."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And do you remember how many were in your group by that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think about 30 of us. But I don't remember for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so then you get to, you don't have to tell me about the flight, you get to Quito."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was one interesting thing about the flight. One of the stewardesses said she played chess and so one of the guys wanted to play chess with her. Well, it turned out to her rules for chess were no rules that any of us had ever seen before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they had a good time anyway."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.465690573601318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think about 30 of us. But I don't remember for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so then you get to, you don't have to tell me about the flight, you get to Quito."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was one interesting thing about the flight. One of the stewardesses said she played chess and so one of the guys wanted to play chess with her. Well, it turned out to her rules for chess were no rules that any of us had ever seen before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they had a good time anyway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to got to Quito and then what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.628545081779242, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was one interesting thing about the flight. One of the stewardesses said she played chess and so one of the guys wanted to play chess with her. Well, it turned out to her rules for chess were no rules that any of us had ever seen before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they had a good time anyway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to got to Quito and then what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we got to Quito, and I think they kept us in Quito for a couple of days, and the foresters all met with people from the Forest Service and some of them from FAO. There were two Spaniards, Spanish foresters, who didn't speak Spanish anywhere near like what we had learned. They all had these. They pronounce some letters differently than what we had learned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were Ecuadorian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.920605646421379, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to got to Quito and then what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we got to Quito, and I think they kept us in Quito for a couple of days, and the foresters all met with people from the Forest Service and some of them from FAO. There were two Spaniards, Spanish foresters, who didn't speak Spanish anywhere near like what we had learned. They all had these. They pronounce some letters differently than what we had learned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were Ecuadorian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, these were Spaniards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Spaniards. So you met with the FAO and who else did you say?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.134006273801532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we got to Quito, and I think they kept us in Quito for a couple of days, and the foresters all met with people from the Forest Service and some of them from FAO. There were two Spaniards, Spanish foresters, who didn't speak Spanish anywhere near like what we had learned. They all had these. They pronounce some letters differently than what we had learned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were Ecuadorian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, these were Spaniards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Spaniards. So you met with the FAO and who else did you say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Ecuadorian Forest Service. And we met with people from the Ministry of Agriculture because that's what most of us were going to be doing. We, of course, met a lot of Peace Corps staff and we met with the people from Heifer Project who were in charge of our, were in charge of the unit that had a contract with Peace Corps to run the agriculture program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you? Were you involved in the Heifer Project then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.482229193112813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, these were Spaniards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Spaniards. So you met with the FAO and who else did you say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Ecuadorian Forest Service. And we met with people from the Ministry of Agriculture because that's what most of us were going to be doing. We, of course, met a lot of Peace Corps staff and we met with the people from Heifer Project who were in charge of our, were in charge of the unit that had a contract with Peace Corps to run the agriculture program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you? Were you involved in the Heifer Project then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not in a lot. I mean, they were giving away animals and I wasn't involved in giving away animals. But they did get us some tree seeds that we wanted to use for trying some species that, you know, weren't being grown in Ecuador and probably shouldn't have been either. But they got us, they did get. They looking for things they could do to help support us I think. So then they did find a bunch of us were looking for some trees seeds so they got us that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the forestry people were still overseen by Heifer, although Heifer had nothing to do with forestry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.980254659014236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Ecuadorian Forest Service. And we met with people from the Ministry of Agriculture because that's what most of us were going to be doing. We, of course, met a lot of Peace Corps staff and we met with the people from Heifer Project who were in charge of our, were in charge of the unit that had a contract with Peace Corps to run the agriculture program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you? Were you involved in the Heifer Project then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not in a lot. I mean, they were giving away animals and I wasn't involved in giving away animals. But they did get us some tree seeds that we wanted to use for trying some species that, you know, weren't being grown in Ecuador and probably shouldn't have been either. But they got us, they did get. They looking for things they could do to help support us I think. So then they did find a bunch of us were looking for some trees seeds so they got us that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the forestry people were still overseen by Heifer, although Heifer had nothing to do with forestry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, except they did have one forester on the staff. But they also had the staff divided up into different regions. So the guy doing my region was not the forester. I would meet with him occasionally, but I'm glad I had the guy I did have, though, in my region. He was a really good. I mean, he was Ecuadorian, but he was just very supportive and he knew people everywhere and he could help make you. He could help you make connections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where were you assigned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.294681815635235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn't all that good, but it was good enough so they knew they had a letter from a volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And years later, when I went back, there were cooperatives formed in both of those towns. Now, I don't know whether I had anything to do with it or not because it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the Forest Service follow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not that I knew of, but you know, they could have, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have known about it because I wasn't really assigned to them at the time. Sometime, I guess, I'd been in my first site, which was Ibarra, for about six months, and I decided I really needed to be where the Forest Service was. And they did have an office in Ibarra, but their nursery was in Otavalo, which is a famous Indian town, has probably the best, well, one of the most famous Indian markets in Latin America. But they also, a reason I went there or finally went there, was because they did have the nursery over there. So I went over there to work in the nursery and I could work, and then I could work with the workers working in the nursery and do a variety of things. And you know, and work with a counterpart."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you asked Peace Corps to be transferred. Is that how it worked?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.438535350705816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And years later, when I went back, there were cooperatives formed in both of those towns. Now, I don't know whether I had anything to do with it or not because it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the Forest Service follow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not that I knew of, but you know, they could have, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have known about it because I wasn't really assigned to them at the time. Sometime, I guess, I'd been in my first site, which was Ibarra, for about six months, and I decided I really needed to be where the Forest Service was. And they did have an office in Ibarra, but their nursery was in Otavalo, which is a famous Indian town, has probably the best, well, one of the most famous Indian markets in Latin America. But they also, a reason I went there or finally went there, was because they did have the nursery over there. So I went over there to work in the nursery and I could work, and then I could work with the workers working in the nursery and do a variety of things. And you know, and work with a counterpart."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you asked Peace Corps to be transferred. Is that how it worked?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were transferred to this other town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.598372611895352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not that I knew of, but you know, they could have, and I didn't, and I wouldn't have known about it because I wasn't really assigned to them at the time. Sometime, I guess, I'd been in my first site, which was Ibarra, for about six months, and I decided I really needed to be where the Forest Service was. And they did have an office in Ibarra, but their nursery was in Otavalo, which is a famous Indian town, has probably the best, well, one of the most famous Indian markets in Latin America. But they also, a reason I went there or finally went there, was because they did have the nursery over there. So I went over there to work in the nursery and I could work, and then I could work with the workers working in the nursery and do a variety of things. And you know, and work with a counterpart."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you asked Peace Corps to be transferred. Is that how it worked?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were transferred to this other town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, which was, I don't know, half an hour away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so not that far."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.55374734655039, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were transferred to this other town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, which was, I don't know, half an hour away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so not that far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't very far, no. But then, well even initially I guess I'd been told that I was assigned to two provinces, Imbarbura and Carchi, which were the two northernmost provinces in Ecuador. They went all the way up to the border with Colombia. So I was traveling a lot between, well, throughout both of them by bus. And living, I mean, that was the closest I think I ever came to living in the way you hear about. I lived comfortably in when I was in my base. But when I was traveling around, sometimes you got to places where there really wasn't a place to stay and often you were in a room with no windows or anything. Maybe some hay to sleep on even."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, how did you find these places to stay?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.615274829500432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, which was, I don't know, half an hour away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so not that far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't very far, no. But then, well even initially I guess I'd been told that I was assigned to two provinces, Imbarbura and Carchi, which were the two northernmost provinces in Ecuador. They went all the way up to the border with Colombia. So I was traveling a lot between, well, throughout both of them by bus. And living, I mean, that was the closest I think I ever came to living in the way you hear about. I lived comfortably in when I was in my base. But when I was traveling around, sometimes you got to places where there really wasn't a place to stay and often you were in a room with no windows or anything. Maybe some hay to sleep on even."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, how did you find these places to stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess, and I think in all cases, I was, my initial contact in all these towns was the priest. I'm not a Catholic but that was inside. I'd go tell a priest I wanted to do this and could you, you know, get people together to do it? And where can I stay? And they always helped me find something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your living arrangements when you were in your post?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.794749810556036, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't very far, no. But then, well even initially I guess I'd been told that I was assigned to two provinces, Imbarbura and Carchi, which were the two northernmost provinces in Ecuador. They went all the way up to the border with Colombia. So I was traveling a lot between, well, throughout both of them by bus. And living, I mean, that was the closest I think I ever came to living in the way you hear about. I lived comfortably in when I was in my base. But when I was traveling around, sometimes you got to places where there really wasn't a place to stay and often you were in a room with no windows or anything. Maybe some hay to sleep on even."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, how did you find these places to stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess, and I think in all cases, I was, my initial contact in all these towns was the priest. I'm not a Catholic but that was inside. I'd go tell a priest I wanted to do this and could you, you know, get people together to do it? And where can I stay? And they always helped me find something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your living arrangements when you were in your post?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when I was in Ibarra, I was in this, I think it was a two- room sort of apartment up above the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, above the office."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.105277567284483, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess, and I think in all cases, I was, my initial contact in all these towns was the priest. I'm not a Catholic but that was inside. I'd go tell a priest I wanted to do this and could you, you know, get people together to do it? And where can I stay? And they always helped me find something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your living arrangements when you were in your post?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when I was in Ibarra, I was in this, I think it was a two- room sort of apartment up above the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, above the office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then when I moved to Otavalo, I got a volunteer who was already there to help me find the house. But it wasn't a house, I mean, it was the upstairs. They had an upstairs, I guess, two rooms that they weren't using. And it was actually a storefront place and a couple of, it was an older woman and her two daughters. And then they also had a couple of indigenous people that worked for them. They'd all live downstairs. And but I had the upstairs and I had a balcony that looked down over the patio where they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds nice. Were you always living alone or were you with another volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.179355021338868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then when I moved to Otavalo, I got a volunteer who was already there to help me find the house. But it wasn't a house, I mean, it was the upstairs. They had an upstairs, I guess, two rooms that they weren't using. And it was actually a storefront place and a couple of, it was an older woman and her two daughters. And then they also had a couple of indigenous people that worked for them. They'd all live downstairs. And but I had the upstairs and I had a balcony that looked down over the patio where they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds nice. Were you always living alone or were you with another volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I, yeah, I think I was always living alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Later on moved to Quito for my third year, but even then I lived alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you spent six months in the first place and then you moved and you worked in the nursery in Otavalo."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.977061134820964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I, yeah, I think I was always living alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Later on moved to Quito for my third year, but even then I lived alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you spent six months in the first place and then you moved and you worked in the nursery in Otavalo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Otavalo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do in the nursery? Was that a successful project?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.53006792757885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Later on moved to Quito for my third year, but even then I lived alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you spent six months in the first place and then you moved and you worked in the nursery in Otavalo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Otavalo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do in the nursery? Was that a successful project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I mean, that's where I was planting the seeds that I had that we had gotten from Heifer Project. So we could. And I had written around to different places to some experts on species trials and found out about experimental designs that we could plant the trees out and get some results from it. So I had that and I was working with my counterpart to try to find places to plant them. And then I was also just helping the nursery workers with taking care of the trees. I thought that was interesting. I've had a lot of different kinds of pines. They had one pine species that they were, that they've been growing for years in Ecuador, from some time back in the 30s. But at some time or another, these.\n\nOh, that's right, there were some Australian foresters there with FAO also. They came up and looked at what we were doing, and some of my pine trees weren't doing too well. And pine trees usually need a fungus growing on their roots, and it's a special specific fungus. So anyway, these Australians came and said we need a lorry load of litter up here. Next thing I knew they had a truckload of pine straw and stuff that they brought up from one of the pine forest down near Quito, and they didn't put it on their pine trees. They put it on mine, and that made me feel like, OK, somebody thinks that this is something special. Because, you know, they've got thousands of these other pine trees that aren't doing all that well, either, because they don't have the mycorrhiza that they need."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.838227609847529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they put the stuff, spread it around on my seed beds. And then the other thing I would do working out of that nursery, the forester for the region was, he'd line up places to plant trees. And I would go up with them when we went up to plant trees up in the, I mean, it's usually somewhere much higher. We were already at, what, 6000 feet at least, and we'd go up another couple thousand to plant the trees. And we'd usually leave, I remember, about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning. Ecuadorians don't, for breakfast they eat, they have a café con leche and a piece of bread usually. So that's what I had. When I was eating on my own, I fixed up something more. But when I was getting up to go with these guys, I had breakfast with them and. But I also learned, one of my favorite foods was an Ecuadorian chocolate bar with maní in it, or peanuts, like a Mr. Goodbar. But it was called a Manicho. And I stuffed my pockets with Manichos when I went up in the mountains to plant trees so I have something to eat the rest of the day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very nourishing food, chocolate. Well, the peanuts were good for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The peanuts too. And now, well, any time my wife goes back to Ecuador, she brings me back a box of Manichos."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you like these."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was there a need for all of this tree planting? Had there been deforestation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.04247512205281, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The peanuts too. And now, well, any time my wife goes back to Ecuador, she brings me back a box of Manichos."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you like these."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was there a need for all of this tree planting? Had there been deforestation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, the country is essentially up all the mountains anyway, the higher altitudes where the Incas had lived. I don't know why they, you know, they cleared it, probably for firewood, which is the main reason that a lot of that. And for, I think, probably built something out of trees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there a lot of trees had been cut."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.2694168022809, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was there a need for all of this tree planting? Had there been deforestation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, the country is essentially up all the mountains anyway, the higher altitudes where the Incas had lived. I don't know why they, you know, they cleared it, probably for firewood, which is the main reason that a lot of that. And for, I think, probably built something out of trees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there a lot of trees had been cut."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There weren't very many trees left. There were some little spots where you could find some examples of the native species, but mostly there were. And some of the area when they were planting these trees really were not suited for planting trees, except that eucalyptus. They were planning basically two species, eucalyptus and pine, this Monterey pine. The Monterey pine was good for getting up at high altitudes in areas that were wet, but they planted eucalyptus almost anywhere. And they were planted in some very dry arid sites and they grew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did this for two years? For a year and a half, you continued working out of this nursery?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.632685335867665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, the country is essentially up all the mountains anyway, the higher altitudes where the Incas had lived. I don't know why they, you know, they cleared it, probably for firewood, which is the main reason that a lot of that. And for, I think, probably built something out of trees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there a lot of trees had been cut."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There weren't very many trees left. There were some little spots where you could find some examples of the native species, but mostly there were. And some of the area when they were planting these trees really were not suited for planting trees, except that eucalyptus. They were planning basically two species, eucalyptus and pine, this Monterey pine. The Monterey pine was good for getting up at high altitudes in areas that were wet, but they planted eucalyptus almost anywhere. And they were planted in some very dry arid sites and they grew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did this for two years? For a year and a half, you continued working out of this nursery?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, essentially out of the nursery, but you know, I'm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In lots of different places."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.147428150964071, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There weren't very many trees left. There were some little spots where you could find some examples of the native species, but mostly there were. And some of the area when they were planting these trees really were not suited for planting trees, except that eucalyptus. They were planning basically two species, eucalyptus and pine, this Monterey pine. The Monterey pine was good for getting up at high altitudes in areas that were wet, but they planted eucalyptus almost anywhere. And they were planted in some very dry arid sites and they grew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did this for two years? For a year and a half, you continued working out of this nursery?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, essentially out of the nursery, but you know, I'm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In lots of different places."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and traveling around trying to organize these co-ops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you become friends with the Ecuadorian foresters with whom you were working?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.719364612182302, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, essentially out of the nursery, but you know, I'm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In lots of different places."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and traveling around trying to organize these co-ops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you become friends with the Ecuadorian foresters with whom you were working?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was two, there were two essentially. And I can't remember. Anyway, the second one was I got along with better, I think, than the first one. And I always remember. But he moved his office from Otavalo to Ibarra, but the nursing was still in Otavalo. So I ended up staying there, although I'll never forget, I went over to interview with him shortly after he arrived. And it was Carnival time. In Ecuador for Carnival, they fill water balloons and they'll ride around in towns with pickup trucks full of water balloons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And throw them at each other?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.021516235758114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and traveling around trying to organize these co-ops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you become friends with the Ecuadorian foresters with whom you were working?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was two, there were two essentially. And I can't remember. Anyway, the second one was I got along with better, I think, than the first one. And I always remember. But he moved his office from Otavalo to Ibarra, but the nursing was still in Otavalo. So I ended up staying there, although I'll never forget, I went over to interview with him shortly after he arrived. And it was Carnival time. In Ecuador for Carnival, they fill water balloons and they'll ride around in towns with pickup trucks full of water balloons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And throw them at each other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, at any unsuspecting person who walked by. And I was dressed up in my suit to go meet my new counterpart and trying to avoid these trucks full of water balloons. I did. I made it. But that actually, some people have been blinded by having those things thrown at busses and breaking the windows and things. And it goes on for not just the week of Carnival, you know, it'll start about the beginning of January and goes on for a couple of months. It does stop on Ash Wednesday, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess there aren't many other things to do up there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.357240261953459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was two, there were two essentially. And I can't remember. Anyway, the second one was I got along with better, I think, than the first one. And I always remember. But he moved his office from Otavalo to Ibarra, but the nursing was still in Otavalo. So I ended up staying there, although I'll never forget, I went over to interview with him shortly after he arrived. And it was Carnival time. In Ecuador for Carnival, they fill water balloons and they'll ride around in towns with pickup trucks full of water balloons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And throw them at each other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, at any unsuspecting person who walked by. And I was dressed up in my suit to go meet my new counterpart and trying to avoid these trucks full of water balloons. I did. I made it. But that actually, some people have been blinded by having those things thrown at busses and breaking the windows and things. And it goes on for not just the week of Carnival, you know, it'll start about the beginning of January and goes on for a couple of months. It does stop on Ash Wednesday, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess there aren't many other things to do up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there weren't then. Quito at least has now gotten much livelier. Quito when we first got there, I mean by 8:00 at night, there was nobody on the streets except when the movie let out. Then there'd be suddenly this crowd of people getting busses and cabs or whatever to go home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this in the sixties, was there electricity, indoor plumbing, all of that, in the places you lived?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.841378068837177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, at any unsuspecting person who walked by. And I was dressed up in my suit to go meet my new counterpart and trying to avoid these trucks full of water balloons. I did. I made it. But that actually, some people have been blinded by having those things thrown at busses and breaking the windows and things. And it goes on for not just the week of Carnival, you know, it'll start about the beginning of January and goes on for a couple of months. It does stop on Ash Wednesday, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess there aren't many other things to do up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there weren't then. Quito at least has now gotten much livelier. Quito when we first got there, I mean by 8:00 at night, there was nobody on the streets except when the movie let out. Then there'd be suddenly this crowd of people getting busses and cabs or whatever to go home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this in the sixties, was there electricity, indoor plumbing, all of that, in the places you lived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was electricity, I think, everywhere I was. Now some of the little towns I went to, they had electricity that was with a local generator. And so it didn't, it wasn't going all the time. And we did have, in an apartment that I had, there was a big sort of washing tub down in the patio that had water, and that's where I got my water from that I would boil up upstairs. But so I mean, there was water, but to get a shower you went once a week usually over to this place that had hot water because they heated it up with charcoal or firewood or whatever and then ran water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's kind of a bathhouse."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.49042007648575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there weren't then. Quito at least has now gotten much livelier. Quito when we first got there, I mean by 8:00 at night, there was nobody on the streets except when the movie let out. Then there'd be suddenly this crowd of people getting busses and cabs or whatever to go home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this in the sixties, was there electricity, indoor plumbing, all of that, in the places you lived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was electricity, I think, everywhere I was. Now some of the little towns I went to, they had electricity that was with a local generator. And so it didn't, it wasn't going all the time. And we did have, in an apartment that I had, there was a big sort of washing tub down in the patio that had water, and that's where I got my water from that I would boil up upstairs. But so I mean, there was water, but to get a shower you went once a week usually over to this place that had hot water because they heated it up with charcoal or firewood or whatever and then ran water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's kind of a bathhouse."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have other friends or were you basically on your own? Lots of people talk about loneliness. Doesn't sound like you were lonely at all."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.322688973873056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was electricity, I think, everywhere I was. Now some of the little towns I went to, they had electricity that was with a local generator. And so it didn't, it wasn't going all the time. And we did have, in an apartment that I had, there was a big sort of washing tub down in the patio that had water, and that's where I got my water from that I would boil up upstairs. But so I mean, there was water, but to get a shower you went once a week usually over to this place that had hot water because they heated it up with charcoal or firewood or whatever and then ran water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's kind of a bathhouse."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have other friends or were you basically on your own? Lots of people talk about loneliness. Doesn't sound like you were lonely at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, partly because I don't think I get lonely that easy, but I did have. There was another volunteer from my group. He was one of the aggies in Otavalo, so he helped me find my place to stay and we would usually have lunch together. Well, I shouldn't say usually, well, often had lunch together. And dinner, I think, because we ate at this hotel where you could buy a meal plan and we had good meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had somebody in town that was a peer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.247432193192285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have other friends or were you basically on your own? Lots of people talk about loneliness. Doesn't sound like you were lonely at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, partly because I don't think I get lonely that easy, but I did have. There was another volunteer from my group. He was one of the aggies in Otavalo, so he helped me find my place to stay and we would usually have lunch together. Well, I shouldn't say usually, well, often had lunch together. And dinner, I think, because we ate at this hotel where you could buy a meal plan and we had good meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had somebody in town that was a peer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, somebody in town. And then later on, there was a woman volunteer who came and lived in the same house I was living and she lived downstairs in another room. I didn't have all that much to do with her, but she was somebody else I could speak English with. And being in Otavalo, at least on Saturdays, there was always somebody around who spoke English because people would come, tourists would come up to the fair, to the, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how big a town is this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.38603577021365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, partly because I don't think I get lonely that easy, but I did have. There was another volunteer from my group. He was one of the aggies in Otavalo, so he helped me find my place to stay and we would usually have lunch together. Well, I shouldn't say usually, well, often had lunch together. And dinner, I think, because we ate at this hotel where you could buy a meal plan and we had good meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had somebody in town that was a peer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, somebody in town. And then later on, there was a woman volunteer who came and lived in the same house I was living and she lived downstairs in another room. I didn't have all that much to do with her, but she was somebody else I could speak English with. And being in Otavalo, at least on Saturdays, there was always somebody around who spoke English because people would come, tourists would come up to the fair, to the, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how big a town is this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty thousand people. Yeah, it was a pretty big town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a pretty big place. And there was a fair there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.65115085579294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, somebody in town. And then later on, there was a woman volunteer who came and lived in the same house I was living and she lived downstairs in another room. I didn't have all that much to do with her, but she was somebody else I could speak English with. And being in Otavalo, at least on Saturdays, there was always somebody around who spoke English because people would come, tourists would come up to the fair, to the, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how big a town is this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty thousand people. Yeah, it was a pretty big town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a pretty big place. And there was a fair there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A fair that sold, well, mostly woven goods. And that's what the Otavalans were famous for was for weaving ponchos and array of other kinds of things. In fact, one of the volunteers introduced a tapestry that was some other group of volunteers down south was making. And they showed Otavalans these things. Oh, we can make them and we can make them better. And sure enough, within a month, they were making them and making them better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the women did that. Did men also do weaving or it's mostly women?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 25.16794539532549, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty thousand people. Yeah, it was a pretty big town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a pretty big place. And there was a fair there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A fair that sold, well, mostly woven goods. And that's what the Otavalans were famous for was for weaving ponchos and array of other kinds of things. In fact, one of the volunteers introduced a tapestry that was some other group of volunteers down south was making. And they showed Otavalans these things. Oh, we can make them and we can make them better. And sure enough, within a month, they were making them and making them better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the women did that. Did men also do weaving or it's mostly women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't think I ever saw. I think it probably was mostly women, but I'm not, I'm not absolutely sure because I didn't usually visit them when they were weaving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. OK, so you spent a year and a half doing this work, traveling around. Did you travel to other regions as well on vacation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.066108509851281, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The U.S. I think they all were. I don't think they have to be. But all of them there in Ecuador were. I know there was another base like that in Peru, but anyway, so there were. Now I've sort of lost track of where I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you were going down the river."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we eventually got to. Oh, that was kind of interesting too, because when we finally, well, we got to where we were, well, close to where we were going. We got to this little town called Pompeya, which must have been 200 people. And there were, but there was a Catholic missionary there or Catholic priest. And we asked him how to get to Limoncocha. Well to get there, you still had to cross a little branch of the river. So he got some people there and took us through the swamp. And then they had some little dugout canoes, and they took us across a sort of branch of the river. And then we had to walk for about a mile and a half up what looked like a road almost, because the Wycliffe Bible translator people had had cleared it so that they could take their wagon down there to get supplies that came down the river. So once we got there, it was easy enough to, you just kept on that road and you finally got to the runway, which was the biggest part of the village there or their settlement was a runway where they had a DC-3 that was specially outfitted so it could fly over the Andes, where most DC-3s couldn't fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it just too high for a DC-3?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got way into the backwater."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.295676122056978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we eventually got to. Oh, that was kind of interesting too, because when we finally, well, we got to where we were, well, close to where we were going. We got to this little town called Pompeya, which must have been 200 people. And there were, but there was a Catholic missionary there or Catholic priest. And we asked him how to get to Limoncocha. Well to get there, you still had to cross a little branch of the river. So he got some people there and took us through the swamp. And then they had some little dugout canoes, and they took us across a sort of branch of the river. And then we had to walk for about a mile and a half up what looked like a road almost, because the Wycliffe Bible translator people had had cleared it so that they could take their wagon down there to get supplies that came down the river. So once we got there, it was easy enough to, you just kept on that road and you finally got to the runway, which was the biggest part of the village there or their settlement was a runway where they had a DC-3 that was specially outfitted so it could fly over the Andes, where most DC-3s couldn't fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it just too high for a DC-3?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got way into the backwater."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, that was, in those days it was way in the backwater. Now the oil companies have built roads and stuff all through that area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the indigenous people, do they now have money and have they gotten education?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.661862357841086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got way into the backwater."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, that was, in those days it was way in the backwater. Now the oil companies have built roads and stuff all through that area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the indigenous people, do they now have money and have they gotten education?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. You know, I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe or maybe not."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 12.95762484204565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, that was, in those days it was way in the backwater. Now the oil companies have built roads and stuff all through that area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the indigenous people, do they now have money and have they gotten education?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. You know, I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe or maybe not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I mean, well, they've certainly gotten more education and Huaoranis now are more, uh, civilized and more mixed into the culture than they used to be. And I learned a lot more about them when I was back there later with AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you did traveling and you said you stayed for a third year and did you move to Quito in the third year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.734681972329902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because if you were only extending for one year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You couldn't go home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you could go home, but you couldn't, but you had to pay your own way to come back. But anyway, Eduardo was going to pay it, and I said, No, Eduardo, I'll take care of it somehow. And so I did come back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you did go back to the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I came back. Came back to the States. I think that's the time. I got off the airplane in Baltimore airport with my poncho on and a blowgun and a spear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been a sight."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.482979969255447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you could go home, but you couldn't, but you had to pay your own way to come back. But anyway, Eduardo was going to pay it, and I said, No, Eduardo, I'll take care of it somehow. And so I did come back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you did go back to the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I came back. Came back to the States. I think that's the time. I got off the airplane in Baltimore airport with my poncho on and a blowgun and a spear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been a sight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my mother thought I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you went back to Quito and you coordinated with the Forestry Service. And did more volunteers then come?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.203311076950496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I came back. Came back to the States. I think that's the time. I got off the airplane in Baltimore airport with my poncho on and a blowgun and a spear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have been a sight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my mother thought I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you went back to Quito and you coordinated with the Forestry Service. And did more volunteers then come?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. We had, well, I think actually before I got. Yeah, before I went home and came back, we had worked with the Forest Service to prepare a request for more foresters. And I don't think before that the Forest Service had ever prepared the request. They didn't even know they had to ask for them. But anyway, so we worked with them and they didn't prepare this either, really. But we, you know, we talked with them and got them convinced that they wanted some more. And so they wrote a letter to Peace Corps asking for more. And then the deputy director, Caleb Roehrig, came over and went, hey, how did you get this to happen? And was very happy with it. But anyway, so we did get a request for more volunteers. And one of the guys in my group went up to Montana and worked on their training so that they did get some more specific, some training that was more related to what they were going to be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you were a coordinator for that whole group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.8925678632783285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my mother thought I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you went back to Quito and you coordinated with the Forestry Service. And did more volunteers then come?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. We had, well, I think actually before I got. Yeah, before I went home and came back, we had worked with the Forest Service to prepare a request for more foresters. And I don't think before that the Forest Service had ever prepared the request. They didn't even know they had to ask for them. But anyway, so we worked with them and they didn't prepare this either, really. But we, you know, we talked with them and got them convinced that they wanted some more. And so they wrote a letter to Peace Corps asking for more. And then the deputy director, Caleb Roehrig, came over and went, hey, how did you get this to happen? And was very happy with it. But anyway, so we did get a request for more volunteers. And one of the guys in my group went up to Montana and worked on their training so that they did get some more specific, some training that was more related to what they were going to be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you were a coordinator for that whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then when they came back, you know, I worked with the Forest Service to select where they were going to be sent. And then would run around visiting them and so forth, trying to usually do it with one of the local foresters from the Forest Service. They would, the Forest Service got some. One day they were saying, hey, we're going somewhere next week. And I said, Oh, you are? They said, no, we are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That meant you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.658408736975921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. We had, well, I think actually before I got. Yeah, before I went home and came back, we had worked with the Forest Service to prepare a request for more foresters. And I don't think before that the Forest Service had ever prepared the request. They didn't even know they had to ask for them. But anyway, so we worked with them and they didn't prepare this either, really. But we, you know, we talked with them and got them convinced that they wanted some more. And so they wrote a letter to Peace Corps asking for more. And then the deputy director, Caleb Roehrig, came over and went, hey, how did you get this to happen? And was very happy with it. But anyway, so we did get a request for more volunteers. And one of the guys in my group went up to Montana and worked on their training so that they did get some more specific, some training that was more related to what they were going to be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you were a coordinator for that whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then when they came back, you know, I worked with the Forest Service to select where they were going to be sent. And then would run around visiting them and so forth, trying to usually do it with one of the local foresters from the Forest Service. They would, the Forest Service got some. One day they were saying, hey, we're going somewhere next week. And I said, Oh, you are? They said, no, we are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That meant you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it really made me feel good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's great. So you really worked closely with them and then supervised?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.509343041084357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then when they came back, you know, I worked with the Forest Service to select where they were going to be sent. And then would run around visiting them and so forth, trying to usually do it with one of the local foresters from the Forest Service. They would, the Forest Service got some. One day they were saying, hey, we're going somewhere next week. And I said, Oh, you are? They said, no, we are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That meant you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it really made me feel good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's great. So you really worked closely with them and then supervised?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they gave me a desk right there in their office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent. Great. And what happened after you left, where you were replaced with another volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.394250668005379, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they gave me a desk right there in their office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Excellent. Great. And what happened after you left, where you were replaced with another volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As coordinator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had known, I had met him that summer I worked for the Forest Service and he was down here. He was down in the southern end of the country, his wife. He was married. His wife didn't want to move, but I prevailed upon him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So an American came down who, did he become a volunteer or no? He just came to work with the Forestry Service? The person you met."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.438056297783755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As coordinator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had known, I had met him that summer I worked for the Forest Service and he was down here. He was down in the southern end of the country, his wife. He was married. His wife didn't want to move, but I prevailed upon him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So an American came down who, did he become a volunteer or no? He just came to work with the Forestry Service? The person you met."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he was a volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a volunteer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.597840330870838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had known, I had met him that summer I worked for the Forest Service and he was down here. He was down in the southern end of the country, his wife. He was married. His wife didn't want to move, but I prevailed upon him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So an American came down who, did he become a volunteer or no? He just came to work with the Forestry Service? The person you met."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he was a volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From that group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.55315592318982, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he was a volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From that group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was, you know, he was only in his second year. But so he moved into Quito. And I, at the end of my third year, went up to Montana State and did the forestry training. For yet another group. I don't know, and I don't remember. I don't know how long they kept having foresters after that, but. And we weren't always, always successful as we would have liked to have been getting volunteers to work with the Forest Service when they got there. And I particularly remember one that was came in that group that when I had moved into Quito to be the coordinator, that we sent him down to a town where there was a Peace Corps staff person living there, and he immediately took him and introduced him to someplace else, somebody else. And he hadn't, you know, we hadn't realized you had to convince the Peace Corps staff as well that we needed to have these volunteers working with the Forest Service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they working with non-profits? Was that the conflict, working for government versus non-profits?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.614617692433132, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From that group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was, you know, he was only in his second year. But so he moved into Quito. And I, at the end of my third year, went up to Montana State and did the forestry training. For yet another group. I don't know, and I don't remember. I don't know how long they kept having foresters after that, but. And we weren't always, always successful as we would have liked to have been getting volunteers to work with the Forest Service when they got there. And I particularly remember one that was came in that group that when I had moved into Quito to be the coordinator, that we sent him down to a town where there was a Peace Corps staff person living there, and he immediately took him and introduced him to someplace else, somebody else. And he hadn't, you know, we hadn't realized you had to convince the Peace Corps staff as well that we needed to have these volunteers working with the Forest Service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they working with non-profits? Was that the conflict, working for government versus non-profits?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That may have been. I'm not sure what happened with that. When we were up north where I was, it was a nonprofit church organization that a lot of the volunteers were working with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what happened then? So you did that and I see that you ended in 1966 and then you became associate Peace Corps director in Paraguay in '73. So what happened in those intervening years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.869898385719916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That may have been. I'm not sure what happened with that. When we were up north where I was, it was a nonprofit church organization that a lot of the volunteers were working with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what happened then? So you did that and I see that you ended in 1966 and then you became associate Peace Corps director in Paraguay in '73. So what happened in those intervening years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first, maybe I should mention that the first thing I did when I when I left there was I went to the Peace Corps training thing and my friend Eduardo Sotomayor was there. And Jack Vaughn, who was the Peace Corps director, came to the final graduation ceremony for the volunteers and Eduardo. Well, and you know, and Heifer Project was looking for another staff member. And Eduardo was really pushing me to get the job, so he made it. He was pushing me in front of Jack Vaughn any chance he got. And then later on, I did an interview with Jack Vaughn and he just decided he didn't want to have Heifer Project have any more people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he hired you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he didn't. So I went to graduate school, which I had already, you know, I'd already been admitted to do graduate school to study forest ecology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get a PhD then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.65419553792582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he didn't. So I went to graduate school, which I had already, you know, I'd already been admitted to do graduate school to study forest ecology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get a PhD then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm an ABD."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were in a PhD program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.282439486584245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm an ABD."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were in a PhD program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a PhD program. I did my dissertation research in Ecuador, and I had my Forest Service people helped me find sites to do it in. And then they would send visitors out there. Well, in fact, I ended up out of Limoncocha because I needed to be in some kind of native forest and they had lots of forest there and also a nice. They built a house for me right beside the runway. And you know, it wasn't a fancy house, but it was a house. And so anyway, and money and food and all that stuff was taken care of. So I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were then working, who were you? Who was doing that, the Forest Service did all of that for you or who did that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.163505538992895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a PhD program. I did my dissertation research in Ecuador, and I had my Forest Service people helped me find sites to do it in. And then they would send visitors out there. Well, in fact, I ended up out of Limoncocha because I needed to be in some kind of native forest and they had lots of forest there and also a nice. They built a house for me right beside the runway. And you know, it wasn't a fancy house, but it was a house. And so anyway, and money and food and all that stuff was taken care of. So I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were then working, who were you? Who was doing that, the Forest Service did all of that for you or who did that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no. I had a grant from, well I had a grant from Duke University and had a grant from who was it? There was some kind of, Ford Foundation. Oh. No, that's what the Duke thing was, from Ford Foundation, and I got a grant from National Science Foundation, that's right. I wrote the proposal and sent it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "National Science."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sent it in to them. So I was down there doing a study on soil changes and forest succession associated with shifting agriculture. And I don't know, that probably doesn't mean anything to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but I'm impressed by, after so many interviews where people have one kind of training, they were sent to do something totally different that here was a forester who was sent to do forestry and knew what he was doing, which is very impressive. That's part of Peace Corps. That's great."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.848339487769884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no. I had a grant from, well I had a grant from Duke University and had a grant from who was it? There was some kind of, Ford Foundation. Oh. No, that's what the Duke thing was, from Ford Foundation, and I got a grant from National Science Foundation, that's right. I wrote the proposal and sent it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "National Science."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sent it in to them. So I was down there doing a study on soil changes and forest succession associated with shifting agriculture. And I don't know, that probably doesn't mean anything to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but I'm impressed by, after so many interviews where people have one kind of training, they were sent to do something totally different that here was a forester who was sent to do forestry and knew what he was doing, which is very impressive. That's part of Peace Corps. That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I thought it was anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's great. So just to move it, so then you got your, you went to grad school and then you went back to Ecuador for your dissertation."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.689308009592445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I thought it was anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's great. So just to move it, so then you got your, you went to grad school and then you went back to Ecuador for your dissertation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's when I met my wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was, I was, oh yeah, I had a bunch of old friends from the Forest Service. And none of them had actually completed their degrees because they all had to do a thesis to get a bachelor's degree. And the Minister of Agriculture said if you guys want to continue to receive the pay of a forest engineer, then you're going to have to get your degrees. So a bunch of them came and they asked for help on their statistical analysis of the research they'd done, the model. A couple of them had to translate chapter of a book from English into Spanish. Anyway, a variety of different things a lot of them needed help on to finish that. And a lot of them came to me and asked for help anyway. So when they graduated, and they were, not all guys at the same time, they graduated whenever they finished all their stuff, and they invited me to their big graduation party and they had some big parties for graduations. And that's, I met my wife at one of those parties. She was a secretary at the Ministry of Agriculture, but some other part of the ministry that I don't even know where she worked. But anyway, I met her one of those parties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you stayed or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.856844331982662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I taught, well, I sort of halfway taught one course and it was about, what was it about? Living overseas, working overseas or something like that? And I taught one day and we had everybody read Living Poor and discussed that. There were a bunch of Peace Corps volunteers, plus people who were interested in it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my professor from Duke had not really done much in the tropics before. He had one thing he was doing in Panama, one research project and one student down there doing it. But I think I really got him interested in the tropics. He came down and visited me a couple times. Ecuador used some of my grant money to do that and then made a lot of friends down there. Oh yeah, that's right. While I was at Duke, I took a course with the Organization of Tropical Studies, which this other friend who lived in Panama later on had taken the year before or a couple of years before. Duke was not a member of the Organization of Tropical Studies at the time, but a couple of their professors were really active in it. And in fact, my Peace Corps friend had really gotten to be good friends with one of the zoology professors at Duke. While I was there anyway, I got my professor to meet with the zoology guy and then there were a couple of botanists. And two years later, Duke was a member of the Organization of Tropical Studies. And you know, I have no idea. Did I have anything to do with it or not?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I always pat myself on the back and say that I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did you end up being associate director for agriculture in Paraguay?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.996104113558843, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I always pat myself on the back and say that I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did you end up being associate director for agriculture in Paraguay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, see. While I was, yeah, while I was over at Tennessee, my grant ran out. My professor got me a job at Oak Ridge at the, you know, with the Oak Ridge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Atomic energy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Atomic energy place, but they were doing all kinds of ecological research. And so they had me doing some analysis of some work they had done trying to revegetate power lines. And so I spent a summer, I guess, setting up plots and taking data from those. And what was I going to get at?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was asking how you got to Paraguay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.551226792843158, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, see. While I was, yeah, while I was over at Tennessee, my grant ran out. My professor got me a job at Oak Ridge at the, you know, with the Oak Ridge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Atomic energy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Atomic energy place, but they were doing all kinds of ecological research. And so they had me doing some analysis of some work they had done trying to revegetate power lines. And so I spent a summer, I guess, setting up plots and taking data from those. And what was I going to get at?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was asking how you got to Paraguay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Oh, OK. And then that ran out and I worked for a forestry consulting firm for a while. One of the main things we were doing was revegetating strip mines, which was a big waste of money. Because we would plant, spray plant grass seeds on the strip mines and then rains would come and it would all wash down the mountain. But the TVA said, you've got to do this. We did it. And so I was doing that and looking for a job and had sent an application in the Peace Corps, I don't know, January or something of whatever year it was. What was it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably '72. You went to Paraguay in '73."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.141600538879501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was either '72 or '73 because I didn't go to Paraguay until late '73. But I didn't hear anything for months and months and months from them. And I was about, I thought I had a job in Panama. And then that fell through because I didn't have my PhD. And then I got a call from Peace Corps. Would you be interested in going to Paraguay? And I found out that they had been, the director told me he'd been, his aggie had left and he'd been looking for, trying to get somebody for eight months. And they didn't have anybody. And then finally somebody found my application in a desk drawer and gave it to him. And he said, well, this guy is not an aggie, I need an aggie, but that's OK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Close enough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then by then, Peace Corps programing had changed a lot. They, for the ags, they were still using AB generalists because that's what there was. But they were defining the job much more exactly. In Paraguay they had selected I think it was five crops they were going to have volunteers work with as extensionists doing demonstration plots and so forth. But just those, I don't know whether it was three or five. But anyway. And they had contracted a company called Bosico to do the training, and they were located in Costa Rica, and they were the ones actually that came up. John Guy Smith came up with the idea of doing the programing for AB generalists so that you could actually train them to do something useful. And then so they would help each country that was going to do, get into ag training, help them define their program. And then they trained them in Costa Rica."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a much more specific training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much more specific. They grew the crop. And they would have already at the training center started some of the crops. But they would, but the volunteers would plant or the trainees would plant it. But they would also have it in later stages because they had to have them all growing there at the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were better prepared."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.490667265421669, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then by then, Peace Corps programing had changed a lot. They, for the ags, they were still using AB generalists because that's what there was. But they were defining the job much more exactly. In Paraguay they had selected I think it was five crops they were going to have volunteers work with as extensionists doing demonstration plots and so forth. But just those, I don't know whether it was three or five. But anyway. And they had contracted a company called Bosico to do the training, and they were located in Costa Rica, and they were the ones actually that came up. John Guy Smith came up with the idea of doing the programing for AB generalists so that you could actually train them to do something useful. And then so they would help each country that was going to do, get into ag training, help them define their program. And then they trained them in Costa Rica."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a much more specific training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much more specific. They grew the crop. And they would have already at the training center started some of the crops. But they would, but the volunteers would plant or the trainees would plant it. But they would also have it in later stages because they had to have them all growing there at the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were better prepared."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, much better prepared.\n\nNow, of course, what it did mean was you didn't have volunteers running around finding their own thing. And I'm never, I mean, some of that was good. And so this took away a lot of that self- initiative kind of stuff because you had a job that was pretty well defined, more like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.989630294912965, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much more specific. They grew the crop. And they would have already at the training center started some of the crops. But they would, but the volunteers would plant or the trainees would plant it. But they would also have it in later stages because they had to have them all growing there at the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were better prepared."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, much better prepared.\n\nNow, of course, what it did mean was you didn't have volunteers running around finding their own thing. And I'm never, I mean, some of that was good. And so this took away a lot of that self- initiative kind of stuff because you had a job that was pretty well defined, more like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was good. We had volunteers that were much more useful to the country, you know, than we did with the kind of training I went through. So that's the way we were doing it, but somewhere along the way, oh that's right, because Peace Corps bid out the training and at some point Bosico lost the contract. And another company got it. And we, at least in part, were wondering, you know, is this going to really mess things up now? And also, I also realized, hey, we've got these trainees that are up in Costa Rica growing these crops on volcanic soils, and then they're coming down here to Paraguay and growing them in other kinds of things. So we need to do in-country training. And that's when we moved to in-country training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the training before was in Costa Rica?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 16.655144772125517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, much better prepared.\n\nNow, of course, what it did mean was you didn't have volunteers running around finding their own thing. And I'm never, I mean, some of that was good. And so this took away a lot of that self- initiative kind of stuff because you had a job that was pretty well defined, more like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was good. We had volunteers that were much more useful to the country, you know, than we did with the kind of training I went through. So that's the way we were doing it, but somewhere along the way, oh that's right, because Peace Corps bid out the training and at some point Bosico lost the contract. And another company got it. And we, at least in part, were wondering, you know, is this going to really mess things up now? And also, I also realized, hey, we've got these trainees that are up in Costa Rica growing these crops on volcanic soils, and then they're coming down here to Paraguay and growing them in other kinds of things. So we need to do in-country training. And that's when we moved to in-country training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the training before was in Costa Rica?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was in Costa Rica, right. But we moved it to in-country training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing the same kind of thing, though."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.61682752458391, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was good. We had volunteers that were much more useful to the country, you know, than we did with the kind of training I went through. So that's the way we were doing it, but somewhere along the way, oh that's right, because Peace Corps bid out the training and at some point Bosico lost the contract. And another company got it. And we, at least in part, were wondering, you know, is this going to really mess things up now? And also, I also realized, hey, we've got these trainees that are up in Costa Rica growing these crops on volcanic soils, and then they're coming down here to Paraguay and growing them in other kinds of things. So we need to do in-country training. And that's when we moved to in-country training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the training before was in Costa Rica?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was in Costa Rica, right. But we moved it to in-country training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing the same kind of thing, though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, what was I going to say though? Oh, what they did with me when I was while I was getting ready to go, first they had some Bosico people come talk to me, to tell them about what they were, tell me about what they were doing. And then they sent me to programs that they had been working with in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Costa Rica. Oh, and Nicaragua, that's right. And I spent about a week in each of those countries visiting the volunteers that were working on the programs that Bosico had helped design. And ran around with, you know, ran around with the Peace Corps representatives. So let's see, in Costa Rica, it was a Costa Rican, but I think all the others were Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Costa Rica, El Salvador. You said Honduras and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.685363916204343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was in Costa Rica, right. But we moved it to in-country training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing the same kind of thing, though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, what was I going to say though? Oh, what they did with me when I was while I was getting ready to go, first they had some Bosico people come talk to me, to tell them about what they were, tell me about what they were doing. And then they sent me to programs that they had been working with in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Costa Rica. Oh, and Nicaragua, that's right. And I spent about a week in each of those countries visiting the volunteers that were working on the programs that Bosico had helped design. And ran around with, you know, ran around with the Peace Corps representatives. So let's see, in Costa Rica, it was a Costa Rican, but I think all the others were Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Costa Rica, El Salvador. You said Honduras and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Guatemala. But they all had programs that were of this type where they had designed them specifically for non-aggies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was it like to be director versus?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.872626573560382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Let's see, what was I going to say though? Oh, what they did with me when I was while I was getting ready to go, first they had some Bosico people come talk to me, to tell them about what they were, tell me about what they were doing. And then they sent me to programs that they had been working with in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Costa Rica. Oh, and Nicaragua, that's right. And I spent about a week in each of those countries visiting the volunteers that were working on the programs that Bosico had helped design. And ran around with, you know, ran around with the Peace Corps representatives. So let's see, in Costa Rica, it was a Costa Rican, but I think all the others were Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Costa Rica, El Salvador. You said Honduras and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Guatemala. But they all had programs that were of this type where they had designed them specifically for non-aggies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was it like to be director versus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Associate director as compared to a volunteer or a third- year volunteer? How does your perspective change as a director, as a staff person?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.19180730395598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Guatemala. But they all had programs that were of this type where they had designed them specifically for non-aggies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was it like to be director versus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Associate director as compared to a volunteer or a third- year volunteer? How does your perspective change as a director, as a staff person?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I was more likely to lose my patience with volunteers who were not doing what they what we had expected them to do, than I would have ever been as a volunteer, even as the volunteer leader or whatever it was. Particularly a volunteer, I didn't, the fellow volunteers weren't doing things that. Except there was one volunteer that the Forest Service had gotten him a vehicle. He was the only volunteer in the country that had a vehicle from the host government. And then he stopped working for them and they had this vehicle there. Anyway, that was one, that was the only thing I could remember that really got me mad about volunteers when I was a volunteer. But as staff, I probably lost my patience maybe a little bit more often than I should have even."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you knew the country well by that time when you came. Oh no, Paraguay. Paraguay you didn't know at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.213119226617755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Associate director as compared to a volunteer or a third- year volunteer? How does your perspective change as a director, as a staff person?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I was more likely to lose my patience with volunteers who were not doing what they what we had expected them to do, than I would have ever been as a volunteer, even as the volunteer leader or whatever it was. Particularly a volunteer, I didn't, the fellow volunteers weren't doing things that. Except there was one volunteer that the Forest Service had gotten him a vehicle. He was the only volunteer in the country that had a vehicle from the host government. And then he stopped working for them and they had this vehicle there. Anyway, that was one, that was the only thing I could remember that really got me mad about volunteers when I was a volunteer. But as staff, I probably lost my patience maybe a little bit more often than I should have even."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you knew the country well by that time when you came. Oh no, Paraguay. Paraguay you didn't know at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, one of the things that amazed me though there was we had a bunch of home extension volunteers. I was also responsible for the home extension program. We had a bunch of them who were in their fifth year. And as I mentioned before, when I was in Ecuador, the director at the time wouldn't allow us to spend a fourth year. But anyway, we had a bunch that were in the fifth year and I kept thinking, how was it? Ecuador was a beautiful country and Paraguay is interesting, but it's not, it doesn't have anything to compare to Ecuador's mountains and so forth. The people were so friendly with the volunteers. Just loved it there. And we had lots and, well while I was there, we had lots and lots of volunteers who extended for at least a third year and many several of them up to five."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you and your family like living there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.347910251797504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I was more likely to lose my patience with volunteers who were not doing what they what we had expected them to do, than I would have ever been as a volunteer, even as the volunteer leader or whatever it was. Particularly a volunteer, I didn't, the fellow volunteers weren't doing things that. Except there was one volunteer that the Forest Service had gotten him a vehicle. He was the only volunteer in the country that had a vehicle from the host government. And then he stopped working for them and they had this vehicle there. Anyway, that was one, that was the only thing I could remember that really got me mad about volunteers when I was a volunteer. But as staff, I probably lost my patience maybe a little bit more often than I should have even."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you knew the country well by that time when you came. Oh no, Paraguay. Paraguay you didn't know at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, one of the things that amazed me though there was we had a bunch of home extension volunteers. I was also responsible for the home extension program. We had a bunch of them who were in their fifth year. And as I mentioned before, when I was in Ecuador, the director at the time wouldn't allow us to spend a fourth year. But anyway, we had a bunch that were in the fifth year and I kept thinking, how was it? Ecuador was a beautiful country and Paraguay is interesting, but it's not, it doesn't have anything to compare to Ecuador's mountains and so forth. The people were so friendly with the volunteers. Just loved it there. And we had lots and, well while I was there, we had lots and lots of volunteers who extended for at least a third year and many several of them up to five."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you and your family like living there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked it. I guess, well my wife, my wife liked it. She had a maid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was nice. By that time, did you have another child as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.608789168663893, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, one of the things that amazed me though there was we had a bunch of home extension volunteers. I was also responsible for the home extension program. We had a bunch of them who were in their fifth year. And as I mentioned before, when I was in Ecuador, the director at the time wouldn't allow us to spend a fourth year. But anyway, we had a bunch that were in the fifth year and I kept thinking, how was it? Ecuador was a beautiful country and Paraguay is interesting, but it's not, it doesn't have anything to compare to Ecuador's mountains and so forth. The people were so friendly with the volunteers. Just loved it there. And we had lots and, well while I was there, we had lots and lots of volunteers who extended for at least a third year and many several of them up to five."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you and your family like living there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked it. I guess, well my wife, my wife liked it. She had a maid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was nice. By that time, did you have another child as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, our other child was born in Knoxville. And in fact, one of the interesting things, I mean, she was born in Knoxville. She graduated from high school in Ecuador, at the school right next to the hospital where her sister was born, were run by the same people. Oh, not the same, they weren't the same individuals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did she end up in Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.009765742959882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked it. I guess, well my wife, my wife liked it. She had a maid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was nice. By that time, did you have another child as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, our other child was born in Knoxville. And in fact, one of the interesting things, I mean, she was born in Knoxville. She graduated from high school in Ecuador, at the school right next to the hospital where her sister was born, were run by the same people. Oh, not the same, they weren't the same individuals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did she end up in Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's, OK. So you did five years as Peace Corps associate director in Paraguay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.344184158844312, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, our other child was born in Knoxville. And in fact, one of the interesting things, I mean, she was born in Knoxville. She graduated from high school in Ecuador, at the school right next to the hospital where her sister was born, were run by the same people. Oh, not the same, they weren't the same individuals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did she end up in Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's, OK. So you did five years as Peace Corps associate director in Paraguay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And couple of things while I was there. One, when I got there, we had the crop extension program and we had the home extension program. And that was it. And we had a group of trainees that was supposed to enter training that summer. And my boss was really concerned because he didn't know how, he didn't think the first group was working out very well because they hadn't had any supervision and any help. And we got the Bosico people in and they said, no, hey, you shouldn't have any more volunteers coming in this soon. We canceled the program. The Paraguayans were very upset because Stroessner loved volunteers and he was always asking, where's the volunteer? And when he heard it that one of his agencies was not going to get any volunteers, he was upset. And they were worried about this happening, which was, in a way it was good for us because they did want volunteers. They didn't care what they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They just wanted volunteers."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.382426843160346, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's, OK. So you did five years as Peace Corps associate director in Paraguay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And couple of things while I was there. One, when I got there, we had the crop extension program and we had the home extension program. And that was it. And we had a group of trainees that was supposed to enter training that summer. And my boss was really concerned because he didn't know how, he didn't think the first group was working out very well because they hadn't had any supervision and any help. And we got the Bosico people in and they said, no, hey, you shouldn't have any more volunteers coming in this soon. We canceled the program. The Paraguayans were very upset because Stroessner loved volunteers and he was always asking, where's the volunteer? And when he heard it that one of his agencies was not going to get any volunteers, he was upset. And they were worried about this happening, which was, in a way it was good for us because they did want volunteers. They didn't care what they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They just wanted volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They just wanted volunteers so they could show them off to the president. So anyway, after some work with Bosico and so forth, we decided what we needed to do was have a getaway or a retreat with our volunteers and the Paraguayans who were working with them. And we went down to this, what was an old German Nazi place, I think. I mean, there were lots of Nazis all over Latin America. I mean, there were Germans there that had come before the war and Germans that came after the war. And the ones in Paraguay I think were most of the ones that came after the war. But anyway, there was this, they had a really nice hotel out in the middle of nowhere. The roads to get there were not very good. They were, I mean, they were mud roads. But it was a nice hotel and it was a good place to just, you know, get away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To have a meeting, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.6576499906177595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To get away from things. So we had this meeting there. We invited the Paraguayans to come and for three or four days we discussed the program, what we wanted to do, and what kind of help we needed from the Paraguayan agencies. And you know, they all agreed, yes, they'd do it. I'm not sure that they did it as well as we would have liked, but they did. So we got another. We got a group of volunteers the following year that were trained and their spots were, their sites were chosen by their counterpart agency. And then I guess, and then as time went on, we got a few volunteers to work with research people. We didn't get very many because we were trying to get, there we wanted real specialists who could do some research. I would write requests for a dozen different kinds of people, just hoping to get one or two. Now, people up in Washington got mad because that hurts their recruiting, if they can't fill all the requests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's hard getting all the people with technical skills, I guess?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Oh yeah. And I mean, I knew they weren't going to get them, but they did, we did get a soil scientist who'd retired from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. He'd been a researcher there. And we got another guy who was fresh out of college. But he had a PhD in plant pathology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think that was probably all. And we had an agricultural economist who had, I don't know, I think a master's degree or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this unusual? I mean, all of these technical people? Or was this happening throughout Latin America?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.508499989575288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Oh yeah. And I mean, I knew they weren't going to get them, but they did, we did get a soil scientist who'd retired from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. He'd been a researcher there. And we got another guy who was fresh out of college. But he had a PhD in plant pathology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think that was probably all. And we had an agricultural economist who had, I don't know, I think a master's degree or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this unusual? I mean, all of these technical people? Or was this happening throughout Latin America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as I know, it wasn't happening everywhere, but I just was looking at what I had learned about research in extension and education in agriculture and decided, OK, we've got the extension people, but we probably could be helping a little bit research. And that one might give the volunteers a bit more of an in into the research people because one of the things that they were supposed to be doing was, the volunteers were supposed to be doing, was putting in research plots out in the field. And I thought it was going to help if they had some volunteers on that end. I don't know whether it did or not, but we got them. And then we also got a few of them that could work in education. We had a couple of people working at the state, some other ones working at small colleges. We got a librarian to work at one of the ag schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did a lot."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.269753073549738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as I know, it wasn't happening everywhere, but I just was looking at what I had learned about research in extension and education in agriculture and decided, OK, we've got the extension people, but we probably could be helping a little bit research. And that one might give the volunteers a bit more of an in into the research people because one of the things that they were supposed to be doing was, the volunteers were supposed to be doing, was putting in research plots out in the field. And I thought it was going to help if they had some volunteers on that end. I don't know whether it did or not, but we got them. And then we also got a few of them that could work in education. We had a couple of people working at the state, some other ones working at small colleges. We got a librarian to work at one of the ag schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then Peace Corps had a deal with Smithsonian to work on environmental stuff, and so they sent down, I think, without us requesting it, a guy who I can't remember his name anymore but was working on that program. And he came down and said, hey, you guys could use some foresters and some park rangers and stuff. And I said, yeah, we could, if the Paraguayans want them. And so we did. We started a program to work with parks and with forestry. When I got there, there were 30 volunteers in the two extension programs. OK, we also had credit unions, credit co-ops, that had already started when I got there but there were only one or two volunteers. And then one of the things that was interesting there was a guy who I'd known in Ecuador working with credit unions on a Peace Corps program was the head of the program in Paraguay. So we were able to work together pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you did a lot. You stayed there five years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and we went from 30 volunteers to 100. And I can't remember now how many more staff people we had to get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so why did you stop working there after five years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 11.444139596974985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and we went from 30 volunteers to 100. And I can't remember now how many more staff people we had to get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so why did you stop working there after five years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because that was the limit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Five-year limit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They told me I had to go. So I left. I would have stayed, I loved that work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Five-year limit. And then you came back and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.9379328855277596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because that was the limit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Five-year limit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They told me I had to go. So I left. I would have stayed, I loved that work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Five-year limit. And then you came back and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back and looked for work. And this guy who had been the, I guess the deputy Peace Corps director in Ecuador when we had developed that proposal for new volunteers, Caleb Roehrig, he'd been a vice president at, was it Xerox? I don't know, one of those big companies anyway, before he came down here and he was. So anyway, but when he left, he went into the job of helping returning Peace Corps staff find jobs. And so when I got back, I contacted him and I was sending resumes and stuff all over the place anyway. But then I was in California because that's where my mother was living then. So we were we were staying with her and CARE I guess wanted to interview me for something in an arid forestry program. And so they had me fly to New York.\n\nAnd then Caleb said, I'll line you up with some interviews here in Washington. And I went down there and he had an interview for me with AID. AID had never hired a forester. They had turned me down before saying, we don't need foresters. Caleb got me in to talk to somebody. Bill Sigler was his name. And Bill said, but you've been working with agriculture and, you know, packages of practices and all these. I said, yes, I do. And he said, yeah, we can use you. And then he pulled the strings that he needed to in the personnel section to get me hired. And so I went to AID. When I was in Washington for interviews, the country director from Costa Rica. They were going to send me to, or was it Barbados? But the country director from Costa Rica was in town and looking for somebody to help them develop a new forestry program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so off to Costa Rica you went?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4865920950308436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They told me I had to go. So I left. I would have stayed, I loved that work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Five-year limit. And then you came back and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back and looked for work. And this guy who had been the, I guess the deputy Peace Corps director in Ecuador when we had developed that proposal for new volunteers, Caleb Roehrig, he'd been a vice president at, was it Xerox? I don't know, one of those big companies anyway, before he came down here and he was. So anyway, but when he left, he went into the job of helping returning Peace Corps staff find jobs. And so when I got back, I contacted him and I was sending resumes and stuff all over the place anyway. But then I was in California because that's where my mother was living then. So we were we were staying with her and CARE I guess wanted to interview me for something in an arid forestry program. And so they had me fly to New York.\n\nAnd then Caleb said, I'll line you up with some interviews here in Washington. And I went down there and he had an interview for me with AID. AID had never hired a forester. They had turned me down before saying, we don't need foresters. Caleb got me in to talk to somebody. Bill Sigler was his name. And Bill said, but you've been working with agriculture and, you know, packages of practices and all these. I said, yes, I do. And he said, yeah, we can use you. And then he pulled the strings that he needed to in the personnel section to get me hired. And so I went to AID. When I was in Washington for interviews, the country director from Costa Rica. They were going to send me to, or was it Barbados? But the country director from Costa Rica was in town and looking for somebody to help them develop a new forestry program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so off to Costa Rica you went?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn't quite that easy, but yes. To work on the design of their first forestry program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you then spent the rest of your career at U.S. AID?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.7735704876924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn't quite that easy, but yes. To work on the design of their first forestry program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you then spent the rest of your career at U.S. AID?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, U.S. AID and contractors after I left AID. I guess, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I can ask you this question, how did Peace Corps change your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea what."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What your life would have been otherwise."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.415078319658222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, U.S. AID and contractors after I left AID. I guess, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I can ask you this question, how did Peace Corps change your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea what."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What your life would have been otherwise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I had expected to end up doing was to end up working either for the U.S. Forest Service or a U.S. timber company like Weyerhaeuser or somebody like that. That's when I went to forestry school, that's really what I saw as my future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spend most of your career in South America?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.127864799620246, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea what."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What your life would have been otherwise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I had expected to end up doing was to end up working either for the U.S. Forest Service or a U.S. timber company like Weyerhaeuser or somebody like that. That's when I went to forestry school, that's really what I saw as my future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spend most of your career in South America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your Spanish is superb at this point."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.3306972834817845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your Spanish is superb at this point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know whether it's superb, but, well, one of the problems. I did work in Jamaica also, so my Spanish didn't get any help there. But my wife's English isn't very good, so I was always trying. I would come home from work and try to speak to her in English and she would keep answering in Spanish. And within ten minutes, I was speaking Spanish without even realizing I was doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it didn't help her English, but it sure helped my Spanish. I got lots and lots of practice. No matter where we were working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there lots of former Peace Corps volunteers at USAID?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.811885870535316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know whether it's superb, but, well, one of the problems. I did work in Jamaica also, so my Spanish didn't get any help there. But my wife's English isn't very good, so I was always trying. I would come home from work and try to speak to her in English and she would keep answering in Spanish. And within ten minutes, I was speaking Spanish without even realizing I was doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it didn't help her English, but it sure helped my Spanish. I got lots and lots of practice. No matter where we were working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there lots of former Peace Corps volunteers at USAID?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in fact, what was it, we had a conference, some of the Latin American aggies and somebody said, how many of you graduated from agricultural school? And a bunch of people raised their hands. And then somebody got up and said, you know, what we should ask is how many are ex Peace Corps volunteers? And practically everybody raised their hands. The Latin American aggies, well, people working in ag for AID, were almost all Peace Corps volunteers, ex Peace Corps volunteers, at that time I mean. That I think has changed. They're recruiting differently now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think the Peace Corps experience made a difference in the AID projects that were, the AID work that was being done?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1243176339281287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it didn't help her English, but it sure helped my Spanish. I got lots and lots of practice. No matter where we were working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there lots of former Peace Corps volunteers at USAID?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in fact, what was it, we had a conference, some of the Latin American aggies and somebody said, how many of you graduated from agricultural school? And a bunch of people raised their hands. And then somebody got up and said, you know, what we should ask is how many are ex Peace Corps volunteers? And practically everybody raised their hands. The Latin American aggies, well, people working in ag for AID, were almost all Peace Corps volunteers, ex Peace Corps volunteers, at that time I mean. That I think has changed. They're recruiting differently now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think the Peace Corps experience made a difference in the AID projects that were, the AID work that was being done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Yeah, I think volunteers were more aware of the social side of things. Not, you know, it wasn't purely just a technical thing. Oh, that was a constant problem I think, I thought, within AID. You'd have to, especially, you know, AID has Foreign Service personnel who work overseas, and then they had, what were they called? Civil service personnel who worked, whose base was in Washington and who would travel overseas. And that was just a constant battle to me was, you'd get these people who had really no overseas experience and would go overseas and sometimes really make a mess of things because they didn't know what they were doing. They were only there for a couple of weeks, fortunately, so they couldn't do, couldn't usually do too much harm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you worked at U.S. AID, did you continue to work with the Peace Corps volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.471464037697921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in fact, what was it, we had a conference, some of the Latin American aggies and somebody said, how many of you graduated from agricultural school? And a bunch of people raised their hands. And then somebody got up and said, you know, what we should ask is how many are ex Peace Corps volunteers? And practically everybody raised their hands. The Latin American aggies, well, people working in ag for AID, were almost all Peace Corps volunteers, ex Peace Corps volunteers, at that time I mean. That I think has changed. They're recruiting differently now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think the Peace Corps experience made a difference in the AID projects that were, the AID work that was being done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Yeah, I think volunteers were more aware of the social side of things. Not, you know, it wasn't purely just a technical thing. Oh, that was a constant problem I think, I thought, within AID. You'd have to, especially, you know, AID has Foreign Service personnel who work overseas, and then they had, what were they called? Civil service personnel who worked, whose base was in Washington and who would travel overseas. And that was just a constant battle to me was, you'd get these people who had really no overseas experience and would go overseas and sometimes really make a mess of things because they didn't know what they were doing. They were only there for a couple of weeks, fortunately, so they couldn't do, couldn't usually do too much harm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you worked at U.S. AID, did you continue to work with the Peace Corps volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see. I wanted to when, I can't remember now. I know in Costa Rica we didn't, even though I had working with me on our staff when we were developing our natural resource management program, what I called a forestry program earlier, but it was really much broader than just forestry, was the wife of the Peace Corps director. But it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't translate into, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.761953412480001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn't translate into anything, I guess, and I kept meaning to do it, and I mean, I knew the volunteers were there. Was that where I? But I was never able to really get anything done. I'm trying to remember. And in Ecuador, basically the same thing. I knew the Peace Corps people but. Well, I got involved occasionally in helping to approve a grant from AID for Peace Corps programming. But not the kind of thing that I would have liked to have done, which was, well, like what we did with the credit unions in Paraguay. There it was we were working, we had lots of volunteers working in that AID program and it was because we were working with AID. And that ag economist I talked about, that was because AID had an ag economist who wanted some help. And so we got him a Peace Corps volunteer to work with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you learn in Peace Corps? Yeah, I mean, you clearly, you met your wife and it changed your whole career trajectory. But when you think back at it, what do you think the benefit of your Peace Corps experience has been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I learned agriculture enough so that AID would hire me as an agriculturist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And later said, we need a forester here in this country and we don't have one. And I was there and I was doing forestry. But because I was not on the AID rolls as a forester, they thought, well, we don't have one. Because the personnel office said we don't have one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you remained active in Peace Corps activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.291059347200001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I learned agriculture enough so that AID would hire me as an agriculturist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And later said, we need a forester here in this country and we don't have one. And I was there and I was doing forestry. But because I was not on the AID rolls as a forester, they thought, well, we don't have one. Because the personnel office said we don't have one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you remained active in Peace Corps activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Moderately. You know, I have. I went out and picked up trash a few times. Let's see, I, there was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was with the Northern Virginia group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.656732608000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And later said, we need a forester here in this country and we don't have one. And I was there and I was doing forestry. But because I was not on the AID rolls as a forester, they thought, well, we don't have one. Because the personnel office said we don't have one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you remained active in Peace Corps activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Moderately. You know, I have. I went out and picked up trash a few times. Let's see, I, there was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was with the Northern Virginia group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in Northern Virginia. And then there was, I can't remember now how they got hold of me. But there was a school in Alexandria or somewhere around there that the teacher had requested help. She had a student who was from Ecuador and who didn't seem to fit in. And she thought if she could get some help from Peace Corps, from an Ecuadorian volunteer, it might do some good. So I went over there and gave them a talk, an hour about Ecuador and showed some, I guess I didn't have any slides because my all my slides had gotten ruined in moving from Paraguay to the U.S. The Peace Corps moving people had packed them and then didn't tell me they were there when I was in California and they sat out in the rain for I don't know how many months. And so I lost all my slides, so I didn't have slides I could have shown. But anyway, I don't know whether that did any good or not because I never heard anything more from them. But I can't, I guess that's probably about all I've done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you stayed in touch with Ecuador all of these years and do travel back to Ecuador."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9519251200000007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Moderately. You know, I have. I went out and picked up trash a few times. Let's see, I, there was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was with the Northern Virginia group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in Northern Virginia. And then there was, I can't remember now how they got hold of me. But there was a school in Alexandria or somewhere around there that the teacher had requested help. She had a student who was from Ecuador and who didn't seem to fit in. And she thought if she could get some help from Peace Corps, from an Ecuadorian volunteer, it might do some good. So I went over there and gave them a talk, an hour about Ecuador and showed some, I guess I didn't have any slides because my all my slides had gotten ruined in moving from Paraguay to the U.S. The Peace Corps moving people had packed them and then didn't tell me they were there when I was in California and they sat out in the rain for I don't know how many months. And so I lost all my slides, so I didn't have slides I could have shown. But anyway, I don't know whether that did any good or not because I never heard anything more from them. But I can't, I guess that's probably about all I've done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you stayed in touch with Ecuador all of these years and do travel back to Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't anymore because I'm not allowed to go to ten thousand feet. I've had heart problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's too high."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2799168000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was in Northern Virginia. And then there was, I can't remember now how they got hold of me. But there was a school in Alexandria or somewhere around there that the teacher had requested help. She had a student who was from Ecuador and who didn't seem to fit in. And she thought if she could get some help from Peace Corps, from an Ecuadorian volunteer, it might do some good. So I went over there and gave them a talk, an hour about Ecuador and showed some, I guess I didn't have any slides because my all my slides had gotten ruined in moving from Paraguay to the U.S. The Peace Corps moving people had packed them and then didn't tell me they were there when I was in California and they sat out in the rain for I don't know how many months. And so I lost all my slides, so I didn't have slides I could have shown. But anyway, I don't know whether that did any good or not because I never heard anything more from them. But I can't, I guess that's probably about all I've done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you stayed in touch with Ecuador all of these years and do travel back to Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't anymore because I'm not allowed to go to ten thousand feet. I've had heart problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's too high."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's too high for me, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But your wife goes back."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6443520000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't anymore because I'm not allowed to go to ten thousand feet. I've had heart problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's too high."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's too high for me, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But your wife goes back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My wife goes back and brings me some Manichos."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Manichos. That's great. Anything else you want to talk about? Should we wind down the interview?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.4992, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My wife goes back and brings me some Manichos."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Manichos. That's great. Anything else you want to talk about? Should we wind down the interview?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was something I was thinking of that I wanted to. I guess not. I can't think of. I mean, I have maintained, well for a while, I maintained contact with some of my ex Peace Corps friends, like the one that was in Panama. He came and visited us when we were living in Knoxville. And there was another one, the one I traveled all over Ecuador with, who married a woman who was really, I would say, really weird, but he ended up in a commune. And they did come and visit me once and then after then I think they went to the commune and I've heard back from them ever again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Separate lives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh yeah. And I guess that's. You know, I keep wondering what some of them are doing, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there a group of Ecuador returned volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8880000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was something I was thinking of that I wanted to. I guess not. I can't think of. I mean, I have maintained, well for a while, I maintained contact with some of my ex Peace Corps friends, like the one that was in Panama. He came and visited us when we were living in Knoxville. And there was another one, the one I traveled all over Ecuador with, who married a woman who was really, I would say, really weird, but he ended up in a commune. And they did come and visit me once and then after then I think they went to the commune and I've heard back from them ever again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Separate lives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh yeah. And I guess that's. You know, I keep wondering what some of them are doing, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there a group of Ecuador returned volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there is. But you know, all I ever see there is the newsletter. Just like Paraguay. I also get the newsletters from there. But there's not. It's all too recent that's in there for me. And I don't think I've ever seen anything, just like I've never contributed anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say, if you wrote something and asked for your vintage people, then you'd hear from them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.32, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, oh yeah. And I guess that's. You know, I keep wondering what some of them are doing, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there a group of Ecuador returned volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there is. But you know, all I ever see there is the newsletter. Just like Paraguay. I also get the newsletters from there. But there's not. It's all too recent that's in there for me. And I don't think I've ever seen anything, just like I've never contributed anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say, if you wrote something and asked for your vintage people, then you'd hear from them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe I would hear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that you can take away from this interview."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 4.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there is. But you know, all I ever see there is the newsletter. Just like Paraguay. I also get the newsletters from there. But there's not. It's all too recent that's in there for me. And I don't think I've ever seen anything, just like I've never contributed anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say, if you wrote something and asked for your vintage people, then you'd hear from them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe I would hear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that you can take away from this interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Reach out to them. Well, thank you. This has been a really interesting interview. Thank you very much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00050:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe I would hear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that you can take away from this interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Reach out to them. Well, thank you. This has been a really interesting interview. Thank you very much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you.\n\nOK, I do have one more, one more thing I ought to mention. I was, I'd been in Ecuador for about two months I think when Kennedy was assassinated. And a friend of mine and I were out at the market, buying goods for a party we were going to have that night. And so people came up to us and said in Spanish, told us your president has been assassinated. And our Spanish wasn't very good, so we asked to repeat it a couple of times. And then we went up to some other volunteers who had a shortwave radio and got them to turn the radio on. And sure enough, Kennedy had been assassinated. The volunteers in Ibarra, which is the town I was in at the time, sent a telegram to Jackie expressing our condolences. And the next day I went to the place where you could buy newspapers and there was a long line of people waiting. And it was a line, which was unusual in Ecuador as they usually don't form lines. But I got in line and people said, you're a gringo, get up to the front of the line. And they let me buy my paper first. Which again, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a sign of respect, I guess."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.85883015705546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The view is. I know, you can almost see forever, can’t you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother used to talk about a book that impressed her so much growing up, How Green Was My Valley. I look out there, and I think of that; I think of her. She would have loved this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jack designed it, the house, and built things with what we wanted to put in it. We couldn’t keep everything that we have [gathered] over all the 60 some years that we’ve been married, so we did have to part with some things. We’ve given a lot of things away. I did tell the kids if there was something special that they would want [to mark it]. One day I was dusting after all the kids had been there. I turned it upside down, and there was my oldest son’s name on the bottom. “This is mine.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny. They’ve got to mark their property."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 18, "return_to_go": 36.509811285617175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother used to talk about a book that impressed her so much growing up, How Green Was My Valley. I look out there, and I think of that; I think of her. She would have loved this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jack designed it, the house, and built things with what we wanted to put in it. We couldn’t keep everything that we have [gathered] over all the 60 some years that we’ve been married, so we did have to part with some things. We’ve given a lot of things away. I did tell the kids if there was something special that they would want [to mark it]. One day I was dusting after all the kids had been there. I turned it upside down, and there was my oldest son’s name on the bottom. “This is mine.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny. They’ve got to mark their property."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us a little bit about your childhood and experiences growing up before you met Jack."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.977307248311504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve always been interested in health and welfare. I think probably because I was sick so much when I was little that that really grabbed me. When some aunts and uncles come and visit you for the last time because they think you’re dying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a burden."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. I think we understand a little bit more how to deal with things like this. They used to come and weep. I didn’t know what they were all crying about, and why they looked so sad. It was disturbing to me. Mom handled it well. Her mother also lived with my dad and mom, so I always grew up with a grandma in my home.\\n\\n That was normal when people got older in our family. Now what do we do? Because they can’t take care of their house anymore, they just come and live with you. My grandma that I loved so much had taken care of her father-in-law. In fact she took great pride in the fact that the day that she married grandpa, this old man came to her and said, “Now I know where I’ll spend my last days.” She took care of great-grandpa. She had six, seven kids, and they didn’t have any running water. The water had to be heated on the stove, and they had to bring it in from the outside pump."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A different life than today, that’s for sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, very much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.971984257174693, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, very much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As she got older, of course she’d tell these stories over and over and over. You think, “Oh, older people, they must just forget they told you.” It’s important, because those are the things you remember. If you have that opportunity to care for either your parents or your in-laws, it’s not easy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is not easy. When Mother finally couldn’t manage for herself she came to us for the last six years, and I couldn’t leave her. It was hard to get anybody to come.\\n\\n It’s funny because you think of people that want to help you—well, yourself, you want to help somebody, so you go to them and say, “Well, what can I do for you?” But when it comes to stepping in and helping care for a person, nobody’s coming. If you can ever do anything for anyone, you can help them. I remember things were really wearing thin. Jack was wonderful. I’d put Mother to bed, and she’d get right up and come right out again. All he’d have to say is, “Mama, it’s time to go to bed.” She’d grab her old walker, and off she’d go. That was my childhood and how I grew up, and I think how I was always interested in nursing, physical caring, and just emotional caring.\\n\\n We all have callings. You’re here today because you wouldn’t do this, you’re not going to become millionaires. I hate to tell you that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, we’ve learned that.\n\nMore than aware of that.\n\nYes, history doesn’t pay that well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.214235172929182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We didn’t have any children until—in fact all of our children are adopted, all four of them. No, the first seven years, in a way it was kind of nice, because when I could go I did. When he went to Japan that year, that was a difficult year. I thought, “Well, now, what am I going to do?” You goose, you’ve got a whole year to do what you want to do.\\n\\n My folks wanted me to come back to Ann Arbor and be with them, so I said, “Yes, that’s good. I’ll do that.” I just went back to Ann Arbor and picked up some old friendships that I’d had in high school and got to know those people after a few years had gone by. That was nice. Jack and I wrote letters back and forth.\\n\\n One of the regrets that I have, he was a wonderful writer, and I wasn’t. I just, “Went to town, da da da da.” When we moved here, I was overwhelmed with stuff. There’s this great big pile of letters, and I couldn’t think of anything better to do [with them]. I regret that a little bit. I tied a big bow on them and burned them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh no.\n\nOh no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were mine. I know. I did the same thing with thank-you notes that people would write after they’d come to the flight. I started going through those thank-you notes, and pretty soon I couldn’t remember the people, I couldn’t put the name and the face [together]. I said, “It was all so wonderful. I don’t want to be hung up with worrying about can’t remember somebody’s name. They’re all wonderful.” So I tied up another and burned them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Next time you want to know what to do with some stuff, let us know. We can help you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you burn them let us know. We have some ideas."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:38", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.79359463658798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were mine. I know. I did the same thing with thank-you notes that people would write after they’d come to the flight. I started going through those thank-you notes, and pretty soon I couldn’t remember the people, I couldn’t put the name and the face [together]. I said, “It was all so wonderful. I don’t want to be hung up with worrying about can’t remember somebody’s name. They’re all wonderful.” So I tied up another and burned them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Next time you want to know what to do with some stuff, let us know. We can help you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you burn them let us know. We have some ideas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish now, with the book that Jack would like to write, because he is a good writer, that I had kept some of them. I can remember a lot of stuff too, even with my 80-plus-year mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned yesterday that the military trained you before you went to NASA. Can you explain what you mean by that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:40", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.326216262875533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you burn them let us know. We have some ideas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish now, with the book that Jack would like to write, because he is a good writer, that I had kept some of them. I can remember a lot of stuff too, even with my 80-plus-year mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned yesterday that the military trained you before you went to NASA. Can you explain what you mean by that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was raised on a farm, so that was a totally different life than what I was going after our marriage to go into. Our first anniversary, he was in Quantico, Virginia, going through boot camp with the Marine Corps, and I was back in Ann Arbor. Our second anniversary, that’s where he was. We haven’t spent a lot of our anniversaries together. It seems like there’s always a need to be away.\\n\\n Things don’t always happen the way you want them to. That’s what I learned. Living on a farm was more regimented, but there were always surprises. You learned to function with surprises and to be creative in handling the surprises.\\n\\n When I went into nursing, there’s always surprises. If someone is expiring, you can’t just stand there and scream. You learned what you could do. Because you’ve had all these experiences, if you just stop and think about it, you can figure out what to do.\\n\\n When Jack came back from his last flight—when he was up there, the hurricane was coming in, so we had to board up. You know how people do. Board up, maybe they don’t do that now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We still do. We still board up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 17.998679557797637, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of the girls just do not do well. I didn’t want that to happen. The kids had a lot of anticipation about this, and if it didn’t work, well, we had time to deal with it later. There’s not been a lot of consternation in our home or division or telling Jack he shouldn’t do this or that. He’s trustworthy. He is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you ever been to Texas before? What were your thoughts about moving to the Lone Star State?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you mean when we moved to Houston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in the ’60s."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s where NASA was. At first we were just moving to NASA. I didn’t even think about Texas; [I’m] from Michigan. We knew they liked to brag, but we did too. It was a new experience, it was. I didn’t have a job. We had the kids then so I wasn’t working away from home. In fact, I got a lot of flak from my neighbors. “What do you do all day?” They had jobs. I said to them, “When that bus stops out there, they come to my house. They sit at my kitchen bar. They talk to me. I know things that you’ll never know.” That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about Clear Lake and your memories of moving down there. How would you describe Clear Lake when you arrived? What did you see?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.998532841997376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you mean when we moved to Houston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in the ’60s."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s where NASA was. At first we were just moving to NASA. I didn’t even think about Texas; [I’m] from Michigan. We knew they liked to brag, but we did too. It was a new experience, it was. I didn’t have a job. We had the kids then so I wasn’t working away from home. In fact, I got a lot of flak from my neighbors. “What do you do all day?” They had jobs. I said to them, “When that bus stops out there, they come to my house. They sit at my kitchen bar. They talk to me. I know things that you’ll never know.” That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about Clear Lake and your memories of moving down there. How would you describe Clear Lake when you arrived? What did you see?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. It was pretty barren still. Back in, let’s see, what was that, [1966]. Clear Lake was just really beginning. Ellington was the big thing because that’s where the airplanes came, the guys flew in and out of Ellington. Clear Lake was built around the air facility there, and it ran into Pasadena. We were over in El Lago for three years, and then we moved to Friendswood. I talked about that before. Jennifer [Thornton] and I were talking about that last night, talking about our bench that we want to put in the park.\\n\\n When we got there life was pretty normal. The Quakers did not care if you’re going into space, just so you didn’t smoke. Don’t smoke. I think it was still dry when we left. They hung on to it as long as they could. I just immersed my life in the community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What attracted you to El Lago at first? Was there anything in particular that you liked about that location?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.109299804935032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. It was pretty barren still. Back in, let’s see, what was that, [1966]. Clear Lake was just really beginning. Ellington was the big thing because that’s where the airplanes came, the guys flew in and out of Ellington. Clear Lake was built around the air facility there, and it ran into Pasadena. We were over in El Lago for three years, and then we moved to Friendswood. I talked about that before. Jennifer [Thornton] and I were talking about that last night, talking about our bench that we want to put in the park.\\n\\n When we got there life was pretty normal. The Quakers did not care if you’re going into space, just so you didn’t smoke. Don’t smoke. I think it was still dry when we left. They hung on to it as long as they could. I just immersed my life in the community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What attracted you to El Lago at first? Was there anything in particular that you liked about that location?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. That I liked about El Lago? We liked it. It was busy. I think there were 80 little kids on our street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Eighty kids?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eighty little kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can’t imagine, that’s an army."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.232555338816702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. That I liked about El Lago? We liked it. It was busy. I think there were 80 little kids on our street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Eighty kids?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eighty little kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can’t imagine, that’s an army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were young because these were young families. I think the first thing that happened, that really hit me that we were in the astronaut program, because we moved, and we lived in a motel down in Dickinson for a while, and then we finally got into a house.\\n\\n We were the last street of houses that was built in El Lago, and we bought one of those new houses, which was good. We didn’t have any real view of moving to Friendswood, but we knew we wanted to get out. I was country, and it was harder for me to live in a community where people are running in and out of your house all the time. That was when I started story hour for kids once a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you tell us about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.48061704312967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eighty little kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can’t imagine, that’s an army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were young because these were young families. I think the first thing that happened, that really hit me that we were in the astronaut program, because we moved, and we lived in a motel down in Dickinson for a while, and then we finally got into a house.\\n\\n We were the last street of houses that was built in El Lago, and we bought one of those new houses, which was good. We didn’t have any real view of moving to Friendswood, but we knew we wanted to get out. I was country, and it was harder for me to live in a community where people are running in and out of your house all the time. That was when I started story hour for kids once a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you tell us about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was really nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that in El Lago still?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.867352270144076, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were young because these were young families. I think the first thing that happened, that really hit me that we were in the astronaut program, because we moved, and we lived in a motel down in Dickinson for a while, and then we finally got into a house.\\n\\n We were the last street of houses that was built in El Lago, and we bought one of those new houses, which was good. We didn’t have any real view of moving to Friendswood, but we knew we wanted to get out. I was country, and it was harder for me to live in a community where people are running in and out of your house all the time. That was when I started story hour for kids once a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you tell us about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was really nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that in El Lago still?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What prompted you to create a story hour for the kids?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.185946966826751, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was really nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that in El Lago still?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What prompted you to create a story hour for the kids?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were there anyway, so I had them right there. I thought, “Well, we might as well do something kind of productive.” My mother had taught Bible school when I was growing up. She had what they called a flannelgraph. They had a piece of flannel and you cut out pictures and you put sandpaper on the back of a character. Then you can put it right on the flannel. You can tell the story, and the kids would listen real good. If they listened they could come up and put the characters on themselves and tell the story. I’m still in touch with those kids to this day. I know. I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow! Who else was living on your street? You mentioned 80 kids. Were they all NASA people?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.317718852029724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What prompted you to create a story hour for the kids?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were there anyway, so I had them right there. I thought, “Well, we might as well do something kind of productive.” My mother had taught Bible school when I was growing up. She had what they called a flannelgraph. They had a piece of flannel and you cut out pictures and you put sandpaper on the back of a character. Then you can put it right on the flannel. You can tell the story, and the kids would listen real good. If they listened they could come up and put the characters on themselves and tell the story. I’m still in touch with those kids to this day. I know. I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow! Who else was living on your street? You mentioned 80 kids. Were they all NASA people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were, or they worked for Philco or the contractors. The Armstrongs lived right up at the head of our street. We lived on Shadow Creek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you what your address was. People are always interested in that, I’m sure."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.575243168921915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were there anyway, so I had them right there. I thought, “Well, we might as well do something kind of productive.” My mother had taught Bible school when I was growing up. She had what they called a flannelgraph. They had a piece of flannel and you cut out pictures and you put sandpaper on the back of a character. Then you can put it right on the flannel. You can tell the story, and the kids would listen real good. If they listened they could come up and put the characters on themselves and tell the story. I’m still in touch with those kids to this day. I know. I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow! Who else was living on your street? You mentioned 80 kids. Were they all NASA people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were, or they worked for Philco or the contractors. The Armstrongs lived right up at the head of our street. We lived on Shadow Creek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you what your address was. People are always interested in that, I’m sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In those days, that brings up something. There used to be a bus tour that came through, looking at where the astronauts lived. You could get on this bus over at NASA and they would take you on a tour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.972492409913238, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were, or they worked for Philco or the contractors. The Armstrongs lived right up at the head of our street. We lived on Shadow Creek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you what your address was. People are always interested in that, I’m sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In those days, that brings up something. There used to be a bus tour that came through, looking at where the astronauts lived. You could get on this bus over at NASA and they would take you on a tour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it just began to hit me where in the world we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It really hadn’t hit until then?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.302769344348043, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In those days, that brings up something. There used to be a bus tour that came through, looking at where the astronauts lived. You could get on this bus over at NASA and they would take you on a tour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it just began to hit me where in the world we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It really hadn’t hit until then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a lot. I had our [astronaut] group for dinner one night, and there were 19 of us. Nobody had any furniture, so it was just get your plate and sit on the floor type of thing. I remember we were all sitting in the living room. We had a big picture window, and we’re sitting there looking out. Down the street came Ed [Edward H.] White and his wife riding their bicycles, and we said, “Oh, look there’s astronauts, look at [that].” Then it began to dawn on all of us that this is what we were going to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were the astronauts, not your husbands."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.20094980783709, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a lot. I had our [astronaut] group for dinner one night, and there were 19 of us. Nobody had any furniture, so it was just get your plate and sit on the floor type of thing. I remember we were all sitting in the living room. We had a big picture window, and we’re sitting there looking out. Down the street came Ed [Edward H.] White and his wife riding their bicycles, and we said, “Oh, look there’s astronauts, look at [that].” Then it began to dawn on all of us that this is what we were going to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were the astronauts, not your husbands."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it, it’s crazy. I think things hit you in increments. You don’t get the full picture. Then we thought, “Oh, hmm.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then I think some of the girls, because we came from all different backgrounds, a lot of us had been in the military. Well, what is an astronaut’s wife supposed to look like? What does she do? What perception does the public have? How did you feel you fit into that? That’s a real shocker. Then it became clear why Jan Armstrong hid in her house and Pat White right next door, because people would come and crawl up on the fence and look in your windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, gosh, even to you guys? Even before Jack had flown?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.778833119818987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it, it’s crazy. I think things hit you in increments. You don’t get the full picture. Then we thought, “Oh, hmm.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then I think some of the girls, because we came from all different backgrounds, a lot of us had been in the military. Well, what is an astronaut’s wife supposed to look like? What does she do? What perception does the public have? How did you feel you fit into that? That’s a real shocker. Then it became clear why Jan Armstrong hid in her house and Pat White right next door, because people would come and crawl up on the fence and look in your windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, gosh, even to you guys? Even before Jack had flown?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Things begin to diminish a little bit when 19—it used to be maybe 5 or 6 fellows that came together, but there were 19 of us. People didn’t know what to do with us, and we didn’t know what to do with them. It became clear pretty soon that people wanted to get to know you, but they didn’t really want to get to know you. They wanted to use you. That’s all right to a point, as long as you realize what it is that they’re doing, and you consent to that and it doesn’t go against your principles. But you have to be careful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA have anything for the wives? Were you welcomed at all? Were you given a tour of the facilities? Was there anything like that for your group? No?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.532036799798874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then I think some of the girls, because we came from all different backgrounds, a lot of us had been in the military. Well, what is an astronaut’s wife supposed to look like? What does she do? What perception does the public have? How did you feel you fit into that? That’s a real shocker. Then it became clear why Jan Armstrong hid in her house and Pat White right next door, because people would come and crawl up on the fence and look in your windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, gosh, even to you guys? Even before Jack had flown?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Things begin to diminish a little bit when 19—it used to be maybe 5 or 6 fellows that came together, but there were 19 of us. People didn’t know what to do with us, and we didn’t know what to do with them. It became clear pretty soon that people wanted to get to know you, but they didn’t really want to get to know you. They wanted to use you. That’s all right to a point, as long as you realize what it is that they’re doing, and you consent to that and it doesn’t go against your principles. But you have to be careful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA have anything for the wives? Were you welcomed at all? Were you given a tour of the facilities? Was there anything like that for your group? No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we just arrived. I don’t know, I thought I had a picture. They invited us to come over. There was an article. I don’t know if you want to [look]—when they all came to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to make a copy of that. I think I’ve seen you with a command module in a photo, that’s why I wondered."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.368929777554303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Things begin to diminish a little bit when 19—it used to be maybe 5 or 6 fellows that came together, but there were 19 of us. People didn’t know what to do with us, and we didn’t know what to do with them. It became clear pretty soon that people wanted to get to know you, but they didn’t really want to get to know you. They wanted to use you. That’s all right to a point, as long as you realize what it is that they’re doing, and you consent to that and it doesn’t go against your principles. But you have to be careful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA have anything for the wives? Were you welcomed at all? Were you given a tour of the facilities? Was there anything like that for your group? No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we just arrived. I don’t know, I thought I had a picture. They invited us to come over. There was an article. I don’t know if you want to [look]—when they all came to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to make a copy of that. I think I’ve seen you with a command module in a photo, that’s why I wondered."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was over at Ardis’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That does look familiar."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.187699752838114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we just arrived. I don’t know, I thought I had a picture. They invited us to come over. There was an article. I don’t know if you want to [look]—when they all came to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to make a copy of that. I think I’ve seen you with a command module in a photo, that’s why I wondered."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was over at Ardis’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That does look familiar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I look like I’m looking for Ardis. What’s she up to? Oh, here, I did have a picture of it. They invited us over to NASA to show us what the space capsule looked like. Here we are. That was shortly after we arrived. Can you find JoAnn Carr?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do. Yes, I see JoAnn. I love the hairdos. I like your hair, the little flip."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.208555280931236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was over at Ardis’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That does look familiar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I look like I’m looking for Ardis. What’s she up to? Oh, here, I did have a picture of it. They invited us over to NASA to show us what the space capsule looked like. Here we are. That was shortly after we arrived. Can you find JoAnn Carr?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do. Yes, I see JoAnn. I love the hairdos. I like your hair, the little flip."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did the flip then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys were on a pretty tight budget I’m guessing. Were you ever concerned about how you might have to dress? Like you said, you realized, “Oh my gosh, I’m an astronaut wife now.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.453950312145817, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I look like I’m looking for Ardis. What’s she up to? Oh, here, I did have a picture of it. They invited us over to NASA to show us what the space capsule looked like. Here we are. That was shortly after we arrived. Can you find JoAnn Carr?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do. Yes, I see JoAnn. I love the hairdos. I like your hair, the little flip."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did the flip then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys were on a pretty tight budget I’m guessing. Were you ever concerned about how you might have to dress? Like you said, you realized, “Oh my gosh, I’m an astronaut wife now.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it. You go into a shop, and you’re going to buy a dress. “Oh, I like that one.” Then someone says, “You can’t have that one because so-and-so has that one.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would happen?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.948833680162018, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did the flip then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys were on a pretty tight budget I’m guessing. Were you ever concerned about how you might have to dress? Like you said, you realized, “Oh my gosh, I’m an astronaut wife now.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it. You go into a shop, and you’re going to buy a dress. “Oh, I like that one.” Then someone says, “You can’t have that one because so-and-so has that one.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can’t have a dress like somebody else. I mean really. But we didn’t have any money. I’d go home and say to Jack, “Well, I don’t have to worry about that, I don’t have any money for their dress anyway.”\\n\\n I think being raised in the country on a farm with grandparents growing up, I was pretty well-grounded. It was new, but it was not a surprise. I’d lived in Ann Arbor, and of course professors and their wives thought they were the cat’s pajamas too. I’m not making fun of them, but I think I was pretty well prepared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your first get-together with some of the other astronaut wives. What was that like? What did they share with you about being an astronaut wife?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 25.49870408906891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it. You go into a shop, and you’re going to buy a dress. “Oh, I like that one.” Then someone says, “You can’t have that one because so-and-so has that one.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can’t have a dress like somebody else. I mean really. But we didn’t have any money. I’d go home and say to Jack, “Well, I don’t have to worry about that, I don’t have any money for their dress anyway.”\\n\\n I think being raised in the country on a farm with grandparents growing up, I was pretty well-grounded. It was new, but it was not a surprise. I’d lived in Ann Arbor, and of course professors and their wives thought they were the cat’s pajamas too. I’m not making fun of them, but I think I was pretty well prepared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your first get-together with some of the other astronaut wives. What was that like? What did they share with you about being an astronaut wife?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a get-together, I think it was about every month, and we’d meet for lunch over at the [Lakewood Yacht Club]. It’s close to the other end of [Farm to Market Road] 518."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s in Seabrook."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.6156840605789, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a get-together, I think it was about every month, and we’d meet for lunch over at the [Lakewood Yacht Club]. It’s close to the other end of [Farm to Market Road] 518."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s in Seabrook."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We’d meet over there and we’d go. At first we didn’t know each other, and so much was being made about the astronaut thing that you didn’t want to do anything to harm your husband’s career. You wanted to dress just right, and you wanted to try to fit in. A lot of the girls had known each other before, or quite a few of them had. They’d been out at Edwards Air Force Base [California]. [Anne] Lurton Scott and Ada Givens—she was my best friend. She was from Germany, married Ed [Edward G.] Givens, and he was the one that was killed in the car accident. She had two children. We had become friends, because she lived just down the street from us.\\n\\n We were just kind of feeling our way along. We didn’t know exactly what [to do], but you make your friends. Everybody’s different, and you gravitate toward certain [people], but we were all expected to do certain things. We that were a little bit younger. The older girls always looked at Louise Shepard, who was the picture of perfection and lovely. She really was. Did you girls ever meet her?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately no. Would love to have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Marge [Marjorie] Slayton?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Unfortunately there’s been quite a few who have passed away that we’re not going to get to talk to. How about you share some things about the two of them with us? About Louise Shepard and Marge."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.253930938986292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Marge [Marjorie] Slayton?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Unfortunately there’s been quite a few who have passed away that we’re not going to get to talk to. How about you share some things about the two of them with us? About Louise Shepard and Marge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was lovely. I wouldn’t ever say I was a close friend of hers. In fact the day that we drove to San Antonio to get Joey, our baby, after he was born, we went the next day and picked him up at the hospital right here. Jennifer and I were going to deliver horse manure to Louise Shepard, because she wanted it for her garden, but I couldn’t go, because I was going to go pick up [Joey]. We were going into River Oaks with Jennifer’s truck with horse manure. Just the setting of that whole thing just made us laugh. But Louise would be a gracious lady along a manure truck, that’s the way she was. She was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Marge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marge, she was just perfectly herself. Those girls tried for years. Of course there’s lots of stories about everything, and you just don’t want to get into that with people. There’s always two sides to stories, that saying wasn’t true, but there’s funny things.\\n\\n Marge would say this if she was here. When Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was up, he’d launched that morning. We came back, and then he was getting settled in for the night up there, and I went over to their house to see how she was doing. She said, “Well, I know where he is tonight.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be very true."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.671519677760854, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marge, she was just perfectly herself. Those girls tried for years. Of course there’s lots of stories about everything, and you just don’t want to get into that with people. There’s always two sides to stories, that saying wasn’t true, but there’s funny things.\\n\\n Marge would say this if she was here. When Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was up, he’d launched that morning. We came back, and then he was getting settled in for the night up there, and I went over to their house to see how she was doing. She said, “Well, I know where he is tonight.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be very true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then you think well, there must be some plus to everything if you have to go into space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was funny. She took care of her mother till she passed away too, Nanabel, and had the one son Kent [Slayton]. I’m going to get that phone number too because you need to talk to Kent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they share anything with you about dealing with the press or just things that they had learned since they had been with NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.968355197512059, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then you think well, there must be some plus to everything if you have to go into space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was funny. She took care of her mother till she passed away too, Nanabel, and had the one son Kent [Slayton]. I’m going to get that phone number too because you need to talk to Kent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they share anything with you about dealing with the press or just things that they had learned since they had been with NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As time went on people got a little more open. Usually nobody said much of anything. If your husband was put on a certain flight or he was going to do something, it wasn’t something that you told anybody except your very closest friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.029805208828012, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They kind of threw up their hands when they saw us coming. “You mean 19 more?” That lasted for a couple years. The way we lived, if you didn’t need a new car, why would you want another new car? We had holes in the floor of our Volkswagen. Why would you get a Corvette?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, not very practical with three children."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But that’s just the way we lived, whether we were at NASA or we weren’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m looking at my watch. Would you like to take a break? I didn’t realize we’d been going so long.\n\nIt’s been a little over an hour.\n\nYou want to take a break?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever you want to do.\\n\\n [Break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that I wanted to ask about was the accidents. You already mentioned Givens and his car accident. But what sort of support would you provide to the other astronaut families? C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams died the same year as Givens. Then of course the Apollo 1 fire. What sort of impact did that have on the families and the community?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.699783565364457, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But that’s just the way we lived, whether we were at NASA or we weren’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m looking at my watch. Would you like to take a break? I didn’t realize we’d been going so long.\n\nIt’s been a little over an hour.\n\nYou want to take a break?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever you want to do.\\n\\n [Break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that I wanted to ask about was the accidents. You already mentioned Givens and his car accident. But what sort of support would you provide to the other astronaut families? C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams died the same year as Givens. Then of course the Apollo 1 fire. What sort of impact did that have on the families and the community?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "C.C. Williams was a Marine. When his plane went down and he was killed, they called Jack from NASA, because Jack is a Marine. Wondered if Jack would go and talk to Beth. Of course I went with [him]. Oh, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A horrible assignment."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.221981739293841, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever you want to do.\\n\\n [Break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that I wanted to ask about was the accidents. You already mentioned Givens and his car accident. But what sort of support would you provide to the other astronaut families? C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams died the same year as Givens. Then of course the Apollo 1 fire. What sort of impact did that have on the families and the community?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "C.C. Williams was a Marine. When his plane went down and he was killed, they called Jack from NASA, because Jack is a Marine. Wondered if Jack would go and talk to Beth. Of course I went with [him]. Oh, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A horrible assignment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know it. I know. When those things began to happen, then it began to hit me, “Well, maybe this isn’t quite as safe as I thought.” Even the day that Jack went to San Antonio for some of his physicals, that was the day that [Charles A.] Bassett and [Elliott M.] See hit the building and were killed. I thought, “Oh my goodness.” Although we were in the military, we were used to hearing this. In my mind I had thought this is safer, because he’d been flying a lot of reconnaissance missions over Vietnam and those places.\\n\\n They called Jack to go and talk to Beth, so I went with him. She was having lunch at a neighbors. One of the ladies brought the baby out—their only daughter that they had. Come to find out she was expecting another one. They didn’t know that. I took care of the baby, and Jack was with Beth. That was quite [heartbreaking]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he the one that gave her the news? Is he the one that gave her the news?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.052101151294705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s interesting. I’ve often thought of that, because it’s fascinating to me, how we think people are going to react to things. Then sometimes they don’t act like we thought they were going to. I’ve been in groups and had conversations with Beth. She’s never mentioned that we came. I don’t know if she doesn’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. You kind of put yourself in her place. If that would have been me I would have just hung on to this person that was telling me this—any news, any word at all. But she has never mentioned it to Jack or I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess it just proves we all handle things differently, but she’s never married. Went into a business of her own and lives over I guess off of Repsdorph [Road] over there, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think JoAnn had mentioned we could talk to her. I know JoAnn had spent some time with Beth afterwards. Did you spend any time with the family?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.724556834771894, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. You kind of put yourself in her place. If that would have been me I would have just hung on to this person that was telling me this—any news, any word at all. But she has never mentioned it to Jack or I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess it just proves we all handle things differently, but she’s never married. Went into a business of her own and lives over I guess off of Repsdorph [Road] over there, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think JoAnn had mentioned we could talk to her. I know JoAnn had spent some time with Beth afterwards. Did you spend any time with the family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually they were very good friends. I say were. I don’t mean that they’re not friends now at all. JoAnn comes to visit here once in a while. I always felt bad that I wasn’t aware enough to do more for JoAnn. I don’t know how she coped. I absolutely don’t. All those children and her father that was an invalid. Every time I think about her staying up all night I could just weep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You kept separate lives as astronaut wives?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.190810907125795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually they were very good friends. I say were. I don’t mean that they’re not friends now at all. JoAnn comes to visit here once in a while. I always felt bad that I wasn’t aware enough to do more for JoAnn. I don’t know how she coped. I absolutely don’t. All those children and her father that was an invalid. Every time I think about her staying up all night I could just weep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You kept separate lives as astronaut wives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we did. Only now we’re beginning to enjoy being together because the competition for these flights, it spilled over into the families, into the wives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn’t want to say anything. You didn’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. I remember saying to one of the girls, we’d gone and done something. We were together at one of our little groups, and I said, “Oh boy, did we ever have fun over the weekend.” Boy, I got chastised for that. Because you don’t talk about those things, I was told. Then I thought, “Well, what can you talk about?” That was just a cardinal sin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just talking about your personal life?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.989789896806439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we did. Only now we’re beginning to enjoy being together because the competition for these flights, it spilled over into the families, into the wives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn’t want to say anything. You didn’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. I remember saying to one of the girls, we’d gone and done something. We were together at one of our little groups, and I said, “Oh boy, did we ever have fun over the weekend.” Boy, I got chastised for that. Because you don’t talk about those things, I was told. Then I thought, “Well, what can you talk about?” That was just a cardinal sin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just talking about your personal life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, what you did that was fun. “Oh, so-and-so invited us.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they see it as bragging that you got to go to this event?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.84882016022831, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them never said anything. Of course nothing is ever kept secret when it’s a group like that. It gets around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I’ve never had any fusses with anyone. In fact it was heartbreaking when the marriages started breaking up. People were devastated. One of the girls called one morning and said that they’d heard that Jack and I were getting a divorce. They wanted to be sure that before they said anything they would talk to me. I said, “Well, I don’t know. It’s kind of scary around here, but as far as I know when he left for work today it was okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.720911289142567, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them never said anything. Of course nothing is ever kept secret when it’s a group like that. It gets around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I’ve never had any fusses with anyone. In fact it was heartbreaking when the marriages started breaking up. People were devastated. One of the girls called one morning and said that they’d heard that Jack and I were getting a divorce. They wanted to be sure that before they said anything they would talk to me. I said, “Well, I don’t know. It’s kind of scary around here, but as far as I know when he left for work today it was okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Then we laughed for a while. Then pretty soon I got mad and I thought, “NASA has got to do something for families. This is ridiculous. We’re going to the Moon, and the families are just falling apart.” It was just one after another. It was just pathetic. People that you thought were doing good, but since they didn’t share anything because [of the competition].\\n\\n So I got a little speech all ready, and I was going to go talk to Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that something that wives would do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.356568099047298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I’ve never had any fusses with anyone. In fact it was heartbreaking when the marriages started breaking up. People were devastated. One of the girls called one morning and said that they’d heard that Jack and I were getting a divorce. They wanted to be sure that before they said anything they would talk to me. I said, “Well, I don’t know. It’s kind of scary around here, but as far as I know when he left for work today it was okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Then we laughed for a while. Then pretty soon I got mad and I thought, “NASA has got to do something for families. This is ridiculous. We’re going to the Moon, and the families are just falling apart.” It was just one after another. It was just pathetic. People that you thought were doing good, but since they didn’t share anything because [of the competition].\\n\\n So I got a little speech all ready, and I was going to go talk to Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that something that wives would do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Just about every day someone was just blowing you away with the fact that their families are splitting up. I’m working over at camp too, so I see all the kids. These kids are miserable, the little Aldrin kids. It was terrible.\\n\\n I got my nerve up. I was going to go. The day I was going, I went in the clinic, and I was going down the hall. There were offices along the way to Chris’s office, which was up some stairs, and so I was pounding away getting my nerve up. I passed Terry McGuire. He was the psychiatrist that came to NASA to interview the guys. You sound like you’ve heard his name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard his name, yes, from the Shuttle astronauts. They’ve all mentioned him. I didn’t realize he was around back then."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.50962978059335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. We felt like we could call someone and offer to be a support system for them. Of course things like that appeal to some people, and some people it doesn’t appeal to. But I’m sure Harriet—maybe you talked to her already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We haven’t, but JoAnn suggested her as well, that we might talk with her. She’s in the area, I think. Is she in the Houston area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, she’s in Clear Lake. I think she’s in one of those garden apartments or something over there. Yes, she’s a good one to talk to. She’d gone through a lot of stuff herself, in losing that little boy. We grew from that, and we learned that we could help each other, which is nice. Our last reunion here was just fun. We all have our stories. If you want to talk about them you can but if you don’t it’s all right. But to show the value of getting together, when Val [Valerie] Anders came [to the reunion], her husband rented a jet and got a couple nurses and rented a house here, so that she could come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s become so important to you to be together now, I guess, to know that you have that shared experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. As we’ve gotten older we’ve gotten more mellow too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not so much competition anymore?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.788477533992611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, she’s in Clear Lake. I think she’s in one of those garden apartments or something over there. Yes, she’s a good one to talk to. She’d gone through a lot of stuff herself, in losing that little boy. We grew from that, and we learned that we could help each other, which is nice. Our last reunion here was just fun. We all have our stories. If you want to talk about them you can but if you don’t it’s all right. But to show the value of getting together, when Val [Valerie] Anders came [to the reunion], her husband rented a jet and got a couple nurses and rented a house here, so that she could come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s become so important to you to be together now, I guess, to know that you have that shared experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. As we’ve gotten older we’ve gotten more mellow too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not so much competition anymore?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we talked to JoAnn she mentioned that she was disappointed because she didn’t feel like she was welcomed the way the military would welcome her."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0983083711029007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. As we’ve gotten older we’ve gotten more mellow too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not so much competition anymore?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we talked to JoAnn she mentioned that she was disappointed because she didn’t feel like she was welcomed the way the military would welcome her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By the squad and part of that feeling. She said that Annie Glenn had welcomed her because she was a Marine [wife], and I wondered was there any sort of cohesion among the Marine astronauts. You mentioned C.C. Williams being a Marine. Was there any sort of cohesion there between you? Or not too much?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4425648567810008, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we talked to JoAnn she mentioned that she was disappointed because she didn’t feel like she was welcomed the way the military would welcome her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By the squad and part of that feeling. She said that Annie Glenn had welcomed her because she was a Marine [wife], and I wondered was there any sort of cohesion among the Marine astronauts. You mentioned C.C. Williams being a Marine. Was there any sort of cohesion there between you? Or not too much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure about all of that. Maybe it would be helpful to JoAnn to delve into that a little bit. You folks are good folks to do that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She just talked about when they were in the military they would go to a new place and she felt like there were things that were provided for the family, and they felt welcome. When they went to NASA, that NASA didn’t provide those things."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.825072063090001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By the squad and part of that feeling. She said that Annie Glenn had welcomed her because she was a Marine [wife], and I wondered was there any sort of cohesion among the Marine astronauts. You mentioned C.C. Williams being a Marine. Was there any sort of cohesion there between you? Or not too much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure about all of that. Maybe it would be helpful to JoAnn to delve into that a little bit. You folks are good folks to do that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She just talked about when they were in the military they would go to a new place and she felt like there were things that were provided for the family, and they felt welcome. When they went to NASA, that NASA didn’t provide those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing. I know. It was like that. Although maybe our experience was a little bit different because we never did live on the base. We always went out into the community, because we felt this is a wonderful experience to live in a different place and find out about it, because we realized soon that some of the military people, that’s all they ever became is military people and didn’t take advantage of the new surroundings. The people are different. It’s good to find out about them, so when your dog kills the neighbor’s dog they’re not going to kill you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.250080070100001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure about all of that. Maybe it would be helpful to JoAnn to delve into that a little bit. You folks are good folks to do that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She just talked about when they were in the military they would go to a new place and she felt like there were things that were provided for the family, and they felt welcome. When they went to NASA, that NASA didn’t provide those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing. I know. It was like that. Although maybe our experience was a little bit different because we never did live on the base. We always went out into the community, because we felt this is a wonderful experience to live in a different place and find out about it, because we realized soon that some of the military people, that’s all they ever became is military people and didn’t take advantage of the new surroundings. The people are different. It’s good to find out about them, so when your dog kills the neighbor’s dog they’re not going to kill you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not this dog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope not. You’ve mentioned that you and Jack are Christians."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.722311189000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing. I know. It was like that. Although maybe our experience was a little bit different because we never did live on the base. We always went out into the community, because we felt this is a wonderful experience to live in a different place and find out about it, because we realized soon that some of the military people, that’s all they ever became is military people and didn’t take advantage of the new surroundings. The people are different. It’s good to find out about them, so when your dog kills the neighbor’s dog they’re not going to kill you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not this dog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope not. You’ve mentioned that you and Jack are Christians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re people of faith. What church did you end up joining in Clear Lake?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.0247902100000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not this dog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope not. You’ve mentioned that you and Jack are Christians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re people of faith. What church did you end up joining in Clear Lake?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to the Nassau Bay Baptist Church, and then there was a Clear Lake Community Church. Is there such a thing now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name doesn’t ring a bell, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There’s a lot of churches."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2497669000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re people of faith. What church did you end up joining in Clear Lake?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to the Nassau Bay Baptist Church, and then there was a Clear Lake Community Church. Is there such a thing now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name doesn’t ring a bell, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There’s a lot of churches."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then they were trying to get started, there was just a few people. We branched out with them. Then we started a Bible study with astronauts, which was really good. One of the ones was so helpful, and it’s hard to keep up with her, she’s been so busy, Shannon [W.] Lucid. I love her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer knows her well.\n\nShe babysits my son a lot, and she also invites him over to play with her grandsons."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4997410000000007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to the Nassau Bay Baptist Church, and then there was a Clear Lake Community Church. Is there such a thing now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name doesn’t ring a bell, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There’s a lot of churches."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then they were trying to get started, there was just a few people. We branched out with them. Then we started a Bible study with astronauts, which was really good. One of the ones was so helpful, and it’s hard to keep up with her, she’s been so busy, Shannon [W.] Lucid. I love her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer knows her well.\n\nShe babysits my son a lot, and she also invites him over to play with her grandsons."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Would you just give her a big hug for me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I sure will, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7774900000000007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then they were trying to get started, there was just a few people. We branched out with them. Then we started a Bible study with astronauts, which was really good. One of the ones was so helpful, and it’s hard to keep up with her, she’s been so busy, Shannon [W.] Lucid. I love her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer knows her well.\n\nShe babysits my son a lot, and she also invites him over to play with her grandsons."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Would you just give her a big hug for me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I sure will, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Would you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She is just the nicest person. She really is."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:180", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4290000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Would you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She is just the nicest person. She really is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She cared for her husband while he was [sick]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was so difficult for her to retire but she really wanted to do that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:182", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She cared for her husband while he was [sick]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was so difficult for her to retire but she really wanted to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know. I’m not in touch with her as much as I’d like to be. When we do we can pick up right where we left off. Since you know her you can appreciate that, because that’s the kind of girl she is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s a very special person."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:184", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was so difficult for her to retire but she really wanted to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know. I’m not in touch with her as much as I’d like to be. When we do we can pick up right where we left off. Since you know her you can appreciate that, because that’s the kind of girl she is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s a very special person."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember we had a little Bible study out in Friendswood, so the neighbors came. Where the astronaut wives hardly knew each other, these people had known each other for generations. [I] got the bright idea of introducing something else into their lives. I had Shannon come out and talk to the group, and it was so good. They could not even imagine her going into space and all that time, but it was so good for them, that women do do this. Because these were women who didn’t even want to invite you over unless they’d done a spring housecleaning.\\n\\n I had them come, and they could bring their little brown-bag lunch then I’d provide the coffee or drinks and the dessert. They’d come to my house, because they didn’t mind if my house was all cluttered. We had Joey then and he was a baby, so I just couldn’t pick up and go, so they came to my house and I’d pass Joe around to the ladies and they entertained him.\\n\\n Let’s see now. Where did I end up with that? Seems like there was something else I was going to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was asking you about what church you joined because I was curious what role and what ties there were between the space program and churches, if there were any ties. I’ve seen [at] the Methodist church, the minister was very interested in space. I’ve seen some letters between him and Al [Alan L.] Bean, and the prayers that they had for the missions and the sermons. There’s a lot of interrelatedness I think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:192", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think the churches knew what to do with us either. We didn’t know what to do with each other, and they didn’t know what to do with us. Here we were out in the middle of a cow pasture. We were just feeling our way along. It’s good that some of us are still living that you can [talk to us]. Although I say that we weren’t close, but there was an underlining camaraderie still. I think after having our get-together here last month that it’s beginning to really come out, that these girls really have cared for each other for a long time, and that we missed getting together and sharing our lives more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that happens sometimes when you have a shared history with someone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think Terry McGuire, getting back to Terry, that he did a lot for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about the role that he would play? I know what happened in that room stayed in that room, and I’m not asking what you talked about. But I’m wondering what sort of role did he play in terms of, I don’t know, playing the devil’s advocate or listening or offering advice. I’m just curious about that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:194", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think Terry McGuire, getting back to Terry, that he did a lot for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about the role that he would play? I know what happened in that room stayed in that room, and I’m not asking what you talked about. But I’m wondering what sort of role did he play in terms of, I don’t know, playing the devil’s advocate or listening or offering advice. I’m just curious about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What role he played? I think it was just keeping everybody on track, and realizing that we had strengths that we could draw from. We were all different. We could draw from our own strengths, but we could also draw from each other’s. Sharing our lives was so beneficial. … To me, NASA and the astronaut program and everything has been nothing but joy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s wonderful.\n\nIt is."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:196", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think Terry McGuire, getting back to Terry, that he did a lot for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about the role that he would play? I know what happened in that room stayed in that room, and I’m not asking what you talked about. But I’m wondering what sort of role did he play in terms of, I don’t know, playing the devil’s advocate or listening or offering advice. I’m just curious about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What role he played? I think it was just keeping everybody on track, and realizing that we had strengths that we could draw from. We were all different. We could draw from our own strengths, but we could also draw from each other’s. Sharing our lives was so beneficial. … To me, NASA and the astronaut program and everything has been nothing but joy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s wonderful.\n\nIt is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really nice to hear."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00366:198", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What role he played? I think it was just keeping everybody on track, and realizing that we had strengths that we could draw from. We were all different. We could draw from our own strengths, but we could also draw from each other’s. Sharing our lives was so beneficial. … To me, NASA and the astronaut program and everything has been nothing but joy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s wonderful.\n\nIt is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really nice to hear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jack can say the same thing. I don’t think we’ve changed much since the day that we left Michigan. I walked away from the farm, and he walked away from living in the city. We put those two things together and great trip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like it.\n\nThank you so much for today. We appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00638:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was really an electric day, the day we flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s about five o’clock. We can stop for today and maybe we can schedule another."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suddenly realize I hadn’t thought this through. I recollected a lot as we were talking. I wish we could go back. There are some earlier things too. I didn’t talk about the multicenter aspect of Orion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s actually one of the questions I have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s been so long even for me. I forgot some of the things that drove us, like that early on. That was 10 healthy Centers. It was another thing that drove us in a certain direction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can talk about that the next time if that’s okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.132708661736395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t have any idea who it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned John Glenn’s flight and you were aware of the space program, but did you have any idea what you were interviewing for? Did they tell the positions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Flight controller."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were aware of that since you had that background in the Air Force?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not in the Air Force, but it wasn’t too far different from my background in flight test engineering. It helped because you had to be pretty much of an engineer to solve some of the problems we had as a flight controller during Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. So it was a smooth transition.\\n\\n And I always liked getting out of the office and doing things. Like flight test engineering, you get out and do things instead of sitting on a drawing board or sitting in an office all day with a slide rule. The flying and doing test work was always fun.\\n\\n But anyhow, we’ve been here a long time in Sunrise Beach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz’s book, he mentioned that he hired you and Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 43.48078740192933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Flight controller."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were aware of that since you had that background in the Air Force?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not in the Air Force, but it wasn’t too far different from my background in flight test engineering. It helped because you had to be pretty much of an engineer to solve some of the problems we had as a flight controller during Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. So it was a smooth transition.\\n\\n And I always liked getting out of the office and doing things. Like flight test engineering, you get out and do things instead of sitting on a drawing board or sitting in an office all day with a slide rule. The flying and doing test work was always fun.\\n\\n But anyhow, we’ve been here a long time in Sunrise Beach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz’s book, he mentioned that he hired you and Mel [Melvin F.] Brooks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were the first two engineers that he hired, and one of the reasons he wanted you both is because you were a little bit older and you had more experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 35.66798320366021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was MA-8, Wally [Walter M.] Schirra’s [Jr.] flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us some details about that flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a six orbit, six rev [revolution] mission, and it was pretty exciting. We simulated for three weeks. It wasn’t all that exciting being in Africa. Finally we launched, and it was a great mission. It was the longest mission up to that time. The previous ones had only been three revs. This was six revs. And Wally was a fun guy to work with. The flight controllers got to know the astronauts, pretty well, because you had to communicate with them and know the sound of their voices and know and try to detect when they were having problems and maybe would not tell you. Many times you could detect something was not quite right. Plus, you had to know the spacecraft systems also.\\n\\n We remoted the data in on some—I forgot what flight on Gemini, but there was only one more mission after that MA-8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was [L. Gordon] Cooper’s, [Jr.] flight on 9?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Gordon Cooper, that’s right, MA-9. And I did not go out on that mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t work that mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.297759115178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a six orbit, six rev [revolution] mission, and it was pretty exciting. We simulated for three weeks. It wasn’t all that exciting being in Africa. Finally we launched, and it was a great mission. It was the longest mission up to that time. The previous ones had only been three revs. This was six revs. And Wally was a fun guy to work with. The flight controllers got to know the astronauts, pretty well, because you had to communicate with them and know the sound of their voices and know and try to detect when they were having problems and maybe would not tell you. Many times you could detect something was not quite right. Plus, you had to know the spacecraft systems also.\\n\\n We remoted the data in on some—I forgot what flight on Gemini, but there was only one more mission after that MA-8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was [L. Gordon] Cooper’s, [Jr.] flight on 9?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Gordon Cooper, that’s right, MA-9. And I did not go out on that mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t work that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No.\\n\\n I was hoping to go out to the Australian site on MA-10, which was scheduled at one time, but they cancelled the program because the Gemini Program was progressing well and they didn’t want to overlap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, back when you were in Nigeria, you said you simulated for three weeks."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 24, "return_to_go": 40.33084346130889, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Gordon Cooper, that’s right, MA-9. And I did not go out on that mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t work that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No.\\n\\n I was hoping to go out to the Australian site on MA-10, which was scheduled at one time, but they cancelled the program because the Gemini Program was progressing well and they didn’t want to overlap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, back when you were in Nigeria, you said you simulated for three weeks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that in Nigeria that you were simulating?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.890784120269597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and then the branch also. Our job, before the missions, was to prepare the early mission rules, prepare the system mission rules and crew procedures, particularly the system malfunction procedures, what the astronauts would do for certain system failures."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were preparing these procedures at the same time that it was being designed and built?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, generically, not detailed stuff, because the design wasn’t that far down in the detail yet, but generic concepts of overall flight procedures."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had experience writing flight procedures and mission rules?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The only thing was at Lockheed as a flight test engineer I wrote the flight test plan, what we were going to test and what the procedures were for me as a flight test engineer. But that was all new. It was all new to everybody, Mercury and Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were preparing and, as you said, writing those basic generic plans—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 27.656426800299553, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, generically, not detailed stuff, because the design wasn’t that far down in the detail yet, but generic concepts of overall flight procedures."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you had experience writing flight procedures and mission rules?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The only thing was at Lockheed as a flight test engineer I wrote the flight test plan, what we were going to test and what the procedures were for me as a flight test engineer. But that was all new. It was all new to everybody, Mercury and Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were preparing and, as you said, writing those basic generic plans—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Procedures and rules, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—and procedures. If you will, describe that process of beginning to write those types of flight rules and procedures and handbooks for a spacecraft that hadn’t flown yet and one that was still in the design phase and with really no one having those previous experiences. What type of process did it take to get those things written?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.968391223672153, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We made sure every one of them had Agena experience during Gemini, and in the front room, in the MOCR. The sections heads were generally the—I had eventually in the branch four sections heads and they all were senior people and had a lot of experience. They would be in the MOCR, and then the other people in the branch would be in the staff support room, the SSR, and they would report to our man in the MOCR. So each mission, we had an Agena console position in there, which was carried on into Apollo, the same concept.\\n\\n The SSR people all specialized in the different systems of the vehicle. This was true on the Command and Service Module [CSM], also. Arnie [Arnold D.] Aldrich was the Branch Chief of the CSM flight controllers, and he had the same responsibilities as I did with the Command and Service Module, so we always had two separate groups of people in the SSR reporting to the two people in the front room. There was a Guidance Navigation and Control [GNC] Officer for both vehicles, and a TELMU [LM Telemetry, Electrical, Environmental, EVA and Mobility Unit Systems]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The EECOM?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was our version of the EECOM, because the EECOM was a Command and Service Module name, and we couldn’t use the same name. So we called it TELMU, and the EMU part was the backpacks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned you had some people from Grumman and Hamilton Standard working with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you still going back and forth to New York at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 25.520434692969058, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was our version of the EECOM, because the EECOM was a Command and Service Module name, and we couldn’t use the same name. So we called it TELMU, and the EMU part was the backpacks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned you had some people from Grumman and Hamilton Standard working with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you still going back and forth to New York at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not very often, but we did for program reviews. But I sent guys up there occasionally, but I tried to use the Grumman people I had to be the intermediaries between us and Grumman design people. That’s what they brought to us was their design information from Grumman, and that was why we spent money on hiring contractors to sit with us in the backrooms. And Arnie Aldrich had Rockwell people, in those days it was North American Aviation, in the same way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that relationship work? We’ve heard different people describe it as badgeless, as far as having the contractors in there with you. Was it a good relationship?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.525641967723708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you began the simulations. That group of people were throwing things out to give you that experience of working through those possible failures. Did you have a relationship with the people controlling the simulations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes, they got most of the information from us. They had some contractor people with them, too. We had most of the system knowledge of the spacecraft, and so we worked very closely with the training people, and they did a good job of simulating. Sometimes we thought they went a bit too far! There would be many of them, sometimes two or three weeks of them; simulating launch aborts, on-orbit and entry failures. Without those simulations, we wouldn’t have had any experience in what to do, so they were very necessary. The training simulation people were a very necessary part of the flight control team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Working up to the Apollo 1 period of time, let’s just talk about that for a minute. Were you actually onsite when the Apollo 1 fire happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have a Lunar Module on that mission, so I wasn’t assigned on it. None of my people were. However, they monitored the mission, as I did. At times I came in and sat on the LM console in the front room and listened and watched the data, but we had no part of that mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when you heard about the fire?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.139602186359674, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes, they got most of the information from us. They had some contractor people with them, too. We had most of the system knowledge of the spacecraft, and so we worked very closely with the training people, and they did a good job of simulating. Sometimes we thought they went a bit too far! There would be many of them, sometimes two or three weeks of them; simulating launch aborts, on-orbit and entry failures. Without those simulations, we wouldn’t have had any experience in what to do, so they were very necessary. The training simulation people were a very necessary part of the flight control team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Working up to the Apollo 1 period of time, let’s just talk about that for a minute. Were you actually onsite when the Apollo 1 fire happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have a Lunar Module on that mission, so I wasn’t assigned on it. None of my people were. However, they monitored the mission, as I did. At times I came in and sat on the LM console in the front room and listened and watched the data, but we had no part of that mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when you heard about the fire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the Apollo 1 fire occurred, Gene Kranz and his family were out at a restaurant, and I heard it on the radio at home, and I called in to the guys at the Control Center and they confirmed it. They closed down the communication to and from the Control Center. When we had an accident or some kind of a severe problem, they would pull all the telephone plugs. The flight director would say, “No phone calls.”\\n\\n But then Gene came home from the restaurant, I went over next door and had to tell him about the Apollo 1 fire and that three astronauts were killed, and he immediately ran out and jumped in his car and went to the Control Center. It was a terrible thing, but, again, there was no LM on that mission, so I had no official position on that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were any changes made to the LM because of the fire? I know so many things happened as far as getting flammable materials out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.821780207066304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have a Lunar Module on that mission, so I wasn’t assigned on it. None of my people were. However, they monitored the mission, as I did. At times I came in and sat on the LM console in the front room and listened and watched the data, but we had no part of that mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when you heard about the fire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the Apollo 1 fire occurred, Gene Kranz and his family were out at a restaurant, and I heard it on the radio at home, and I called in to the guys at the Control Center and they confirmed it. They closed down the communication to and from the Control Center. When we had an accident or some kind of a severe problem, they would pull all the telephone plugs. The flight director would say, “No phone calls.”\\n\\n But then Gene came home from the restaurant, I went over next door and had to tell him about the Apollo 1 fire and that three astronauts were killed, and he immediately ran out and jumped in his car and went to the Control Center. It was a terrible thing, but, again, there was no LM on that mission, so I had no official position on that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were any changes made to the LM because of the fire? I know so many things happened as far as getting flammable materials out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No design changes were made. The flammable material removal was the big effort. One of the problems on that fire was that the ground crew had left some flammable material in the cockpit during the test. It was not flight hardware, and it burned in the spacecraft.\\n\\n But it was a terrible day; one of those guys was a particular good friend of mine. We were lucky from then on, and we were able to not have any serious problems during the missions that we couldn’t fix. And, again, it was due to simulation, training, and the efficiency of the flight control people that I had in my branch for the Lunar Module and the engineers in the other branches."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about Grumman and their people that you had in the SPAN with you, talking back to the other Grumman people—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 18.69086689674034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the Apollo 1 fire occurred, Gene Kranz and his family were out at a restaurant, and I heard it on the radio at home, and I called in to the guys at the Control Center and they confirmed it. They closed down the communication to and from the Control Center. When we had an accident or some kind of a severe problem, they would pull all the telephone plugs. The flight director would say, “No phone calls.”\\n\\n But then Gene came home from the restaurant, I went over next door and had to tell him about the Apollo 1 fire and that three astronauts were killed, and he immediately ran out and jumped in his car and went to the Control Center. It was a terrible thing, but, again, there was no LM on that mission, so I had no official position on that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were any changes made to the LM because of the fire? I know so many things happened as far as getting flammable materials out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No design changes were made. The flammable material removal was the big effort. One of the problems on that fire was that the ground crew had left some flammable material in the cockpit during the test. It was not flight hardware, and it burned in the spacecraft.\\n\\n But it was a terrible day; one of those guys was a particular good friend of mine. We were lucky from then on, and we were able to not have any serious problems during the missions that we couldn’t fix. And, again, it was due to simulation, training, and the efficiency of the flight control people that I had in my branch for the Lunar Module and the engineers in the other branches."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about Grumman and their people that you had in the SPAN with you, talking back to the other Grumman people—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They talked with Grumman people at Bethpage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—at Bethpage, did they have their own control room at Grumman?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.656518774155932, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No design changes were made. The flammable material removal was the big effort. One of the problems on that fire was that the ground crew had left some flammable material in the cockpit during the test. It was not flight hardware, and it burned in the spacecraft.\\n\\n But it was a terrible day; one of those guys was a particular good friend of mine. We were lucky from then on, and we were able to not have any serious problems during the missions that we couldn’t fix. And, again, it was due to simulation, training, and the efficiency of the flight control people that I had in my branch for the Lunar Module and the engineers in the other branches."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about Grumman and their people that you had in the SPAN with you, talking back to the other Grumman people—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They talked with Grumman people at Bethpage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—at Bethpage, did they have their own control room at Grumman?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They could monitor the LM data and the crew voice communications. It was the same with the Rockwell people in the SPAN room and at Downey for the Command Module, so they could keep up with the mission.\\n\\n We worked with Skylab after Apollo, and I had the Corollary Experiments assigned to my branch. I personally did not have any participation in the Corollary Experiments activities per se, but I had a section that did that work. We also were doing some advance work on the Space Shuttle, early designs, like with the early days in the other spacecraft when they were just conceptual designs. I had half of my people working early Space Shuttle activities while we were flying the Skylab. The corollaries were just one of several kinds of experiments on the Skylab Program. We did not have any of the Skylab systems assigned to my branch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to the Apollo 5 mission, which was the first—it was unmanned, but it did have the LM involved. Do you have any memories about running that mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.61835419350659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They talked with Grumman people at Bethpage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—at Bethpage, did they have their own control room at Grumman?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They could monitor the LM data and the crew voice communications. It was the same with the Rockwell people in the SPAN room and at Downey for the Command Module, so they could keep up with the mission.\\n\\n We worked with Skylab after Apollo, and I had the Corollary Experiments assigned to my branch. I personally did not have any participation in the Corollary Experiments activities per se, but I had a section that did that work. We also were doing some advance work on the Space Shuttle, early designs, like with the early days in the other spacecraft when they were just conceptual designs. I had half of my people working early Space Shuttle activities while we were flying the Skylab. The corollaries were just one of several kinds of experiments on the Skylab Program. We did not have any of the Skylab systems assigned to my branch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to the Apollo 5 mission, which was the first—it was unmanned, but it did have the LM involved. Do you have any memories about running that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On Apollo 5 we had LM propulsion troubles. There was not Command and Service Module on this mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think in some of the research I saw that there was a problem in LM descent engine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.687060215007323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They could monitor the LM data and the crew voice communications. It was the same with the Rockwell people in the SPAN room and at Downey for the Command Module, so they could keep up with the mission.\\n\\n We worked with Skylab after Apollo, and I had the Corollary Experiments assigned to my branch. I personally did not have any participation in the Corollary Experiments activities per se, but I had a section that did that work. We also were doing some advance work on the Space Shuttle, early designs, like with the early days in the other spacecraft when they were just conceptual designs. I had half of my people working early Space Shuttle activities while we were flying the Skylab. The corollaries were just one of several kinds of experiments on the Skylab Program. We did not have any of the Skylab systems assigned to my branch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to the Apollo 5 mission, which was the first—it was unmanned, but it did have the LM involved. Do you have any memories about running that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On Apollo 5 we had LM propulsion troubles. There was not Command and Service Module on this mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think in some of the research I saw that there was a problem in LM descent engine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had the LM descent engine shut down early and my people sent backup commands to restart the engine. We burned both the descent engine and the ascent engine, attempting to simulate the lunar profile. We ended up getting the data, but the mission didn’t go right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The MOCR, as far as the relationship between the SPAN and the MOCR, you’ve described that a little bit. But as far as assigning controllers, and I know that all the flight controllers had their teams, like the white team, their different colors."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.874511350008136, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On Apollo 5 we had LM propulsion troubles. There was not Command and Service Module on this mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think in some of the research I saw that there was a problem in LM descent engine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had the LM descent engine shut down early and my people sent backup commands to restart the engine. We burned both the descent engine and the ascent engine, attempting to simulate the lunar profile. We ended up getting the data, but the mission didn’t go right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The MOCR, as far as the relationship between the SPAN and the MOCR, you’ve described that a little bit. But as far as assigning controllers, and I know that all the flight controllers had their teams, like the white team, their different colors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was part of your duties, or did you have any input into assigning which controllers would be working with which team?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.845075740750785, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was part of your duties, or did you have any input into assigning which controllers would be working with which team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, working with the Flight Directors. I tried to stay out of that arena as much as possible, but if it got into a management problem, I got involved. But I had four good section heads that were able to handle that pretty well.\\n\\n During a mission, I had one of my Grumman engineers sit with me back in the SPAN room, as he didn’t have a position otherwise in the Control Center. He was a good person to help me interface with Grumman. The Command and Service Module SPAN engineers had a Rockwell person sitting next them on the console, also.\\n\\n We had very few problems that required a lot of really tough work. We had a lot of minor problems that bothered us, keeping up with the consumables and things like that. But we got through them all. Simulator training guys helped us get through all those problems with the simulations.\\n\\n One of the questions was about the ALT Approach and Landing Test Program. I didn’t have any direct mission involvement in that personally. As I have indicated, the Shuttle systems people worked for me, but they were assigned on the console, not I.\\n\\n One of the questions is my memories of the first Shuttle flight. I was in the SPAN room for prime shift during the flight. That was an exciting mission, being an aeronautical engineer, and to have a spacecraft with wings that landed using aerodynamics. I remember leaving the Control Center after the landing, as was Chris Kraft—everybody had left but Chris and myself, and I said, “Chris, I can’t believe it. It was so perfect. The landing was so good.”\\n\\n He says, “I can’t believe it either. It just blows my mind.”\\n\\n And John [W.] Young, by the way, was commander on that flight, and he was a roommate of mine at Georgia Tech."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s what I read."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were both in the Sigma Chi fraternity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you room with him?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.827861934167538, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, working with the Flight Directors. I tried to stay out of that arena as much as possible, but if it got into a management problem, I got involved. But I had four good section heads that were able to handle that pretty well.\\n\\n During a mission, I had one of my Grumman engineers sit with me back in the SPAN room, as he didn’t have a position otherwise in the Control Center. He was a good person to help me interface with Grumman. The Command and Service Module SPAN engineers had a Rockwell person sitting next them on the console, also.\\n\\n We had very few problems that required a lot of really tough work. We had a lot of minor problems that bothered us, keeping up with the consumables and things like that. But we got through them all. Simulator training guys helped us get through all those problems with the simulations.\\n\\n One of the questions was about the ALT Approach and Landing Test Program. I didn’t have any direct mission involvement in that personally. As I have indicated, the Shuttle systems people worked for me, but they were assigned on the console, not I.\\n\\n One of the questions is my memories of the first Shuttle flight. I was in the SPAN room for prime shift during the flight. That was an exciting mission, being an aeronautical engineer, and to have a spacecraft with wings that landed using aerodynamics. I remember leaving the Control Center after the landing, as was Chris Kraft—everybody had left but Chris and myself, and I said, “Chris, I can’t believe it. It was so perfect. The landing was so good.”\\n\\n He says, “I can’t believe it either. It just blows my mind.”\\n\\n And John [W.] Young, by the way, was commander on that flight, and he was a roommate of mine at Georgia Tech."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s what I read."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were both in the Sigma Chi fraternity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you room with him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you keep in touch in between college and when you both ended up with NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.697624371297264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were both in the Sigma Chi fraternity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you room with him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you keep in touch in between college and when you both ended up with NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, up to a point. He was from Orlando [Florida], and he went back down there. John was not a big talker, but he was smart. He had closest to a 4.0 grade point average at Georgia Tech than of anyone I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s go back to Apollo again for a second. Apollo 8, you were on the manning list, but there was no LM on Apollo 8."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.664027079219181, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you keep in touch in between college and when you both ended up with NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, up to a point. He was from Orlando [Florida], and he went back down there. John was not a big talker, but he was smart. He had closest to a 4.0 grade point average at Georgia Tech than of anyone I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s go back to Apollo again for a second. Apollo 8, you were on the manning list, but there was no LM on Apollo 8."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That just allowed me to get in the Control Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you want to share your memories of that flight? It seemed to be an important flight to so many people that we’ve interviewed because, one thing, it wasn’t planned and there were some delays with the LM, and so they shifted the flights and then flew Apollo 8 instead at that time period."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.73780786579909, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, up to a point. He was from Orlando [Florida], and he went back down there. John was not a big talker, but he was smart. He had closest to a 4.0 grade point average at Georgia Tech than of anyone I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s go back to Apollo again for a second. Apollo 8, you were on the manning list, but there was no LM on Apollo 8."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That just allowed me to get in the Control Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you want to share your memories of that flight? It seemed to be an important flight to so many people that we’ve interviewed because, one thing, it wasn’t planned and there were some delays with the LM, and so they shifted the flights and then flew Apollo 8 instead at that time period."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They had LM delivery problems from Bethpage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about those for a minute, or do you have any memories?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.819786517554544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That just allowed me to get in the Control Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you want to share your memories of that flight? It seemed to be an important flight to so many people that we’ve interviewed because, one thing, it wasn’t planned and there were some delays with the LM, and so they shifted the flights and then flew Apollo 8 instead at that time period."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They had LM delivery problems from Bethpage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about those for a minute, or do you have any memories?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Grumman was having test and checkout problems. It slipped their delivery and the LM mission was delayed, so they threw in Apollo 8, which carried only the Command and Service Module. I just came in and monitored in the SPAN room just to keep up, as a Branch Chief, just to keep up with what was going on. I’m sure I remember my guys were in also on their consoles, watching the Command Module data."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working on Christmas Eve?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.021985019505049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They had LM delivery problems from Bethpage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about those for a minute, or do you have any memories?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Grumman was having test and checkout problems. It slipped their delivery and the LM mission was delayed, so they threw in Apollo 8, which carried only the Command and Service Module. I just came in and monitored in the SPAN room just to keep up, as a Branch Chief, just to keep up with what was going on. I’m sure I remember my guys were in also on their consoles, watching the Command Module data."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working on Christmas Eve?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On Apollo 8? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On Apollo 8 when they read Genesis?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.357761132783388, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Grumman was having test and checkout problems. It slipped their delivery and the LM mission was delayed, so they threw in Apollo 8, which carried only the Command and Service Module. I just came in and monitored in the SPAN room just to keep up, as a Branch Chief, just to keep up with what was going on. I’m sure I remember my guys were in also on their consoles, watching the Command Module data."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working on Christmas Eve?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On Apollo 8? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On Apollo 8 when they read Genesis?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I cannot remember that, honestly. You know, it’s just been so long ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We interviewed Dave [David W.] Whittle last week."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.841956814203764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On Apollo 8? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On Apollo 8 when they read Genesis?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I cannot remember that, honestly. You know, it’s just been so long ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We interviewed Dave [David W.] Whittle last week."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, he was one of my section heads and a great engineer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he said that the pictures that came back from Apollo 8, being so close to the Moon, that people were just “eating them up” as soon as they would come in. Do you remember seeing those first pictures?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.37995201578196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I cannot remember that, honestly. You know, it’s just been so long ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We interviewed Dave [David W.] Whittle last week."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, he was one of my section heads and a great engineer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he said that the pictures that came back from Apollo 8, being so close to the Moon, that people were just “eating them up” as soon as they would come in. Do you remember seeing those first pictures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they had some TV [television] pictures when Apollo 8 orbited the Moon without a LM, and that was the first time we had gotten close to the Moon and everybody was anxious to see what it looked like up close. And the real time TV was just very impressive. Not really high quality, but the photographs after the mission certainly were. Yes, that was exciting to see the Moon close up in real time, and it was also nerve-wracking, particularly during the mission when they went behind the Moon and we lost contact for about two hours. And we were always anxious when we came to the point when voice contact was scheduled. We were waiting on the crew to say, “Houston, this is Apollo 8,” and “Oh, you made it, made it behind the Moon.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the first mission, the manned LM mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.644391128646621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, he was one of my section heads and a great engineer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he said that the pictures that came back from Apollo 8, being so close to the Moon, that people were just “eating them up” as soon as they would come in. Do you remember seeing those first pictures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they had some TV [television] pictures when Apollo 8 orbited the Moon without a LM, and that was the first time we had gotten close to the Moon and everybody was anxious to see what it looked like up close. And the real time TV was just very impressive. Not really high quality, but the photographs after the mission certainly were. Yes, that was exciting to see the Moon close up in real time, and it was also nerve-wracking, particularly during the mission when they went behind the Moon and we lost contact for about two hours. And we were always anxious when we came to the point when voice contact was scheduled. We were waiting on the crew to say, “Houston, this is Apollo 8,” and “Oh, you made it, made it behind the Moon.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the first mission, the manned LM mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was LM-3 on Apollo 9. It was a manned Earth orbit mission. It was the hardest mission we ever flew because they undocked the LM, manned, but we didn’t have constant contact with it because we didn’t have a communication satellite in orbit in those days. It would go in and out of coverage between sites, and it was kind of a disjointed thing. We didn’t have a continuous flow of data like we did during the translunar coast mission. During a lunar mission, we had data all the way to the Moon and back, so the only time we lost data was when they were behind the Moon. But we had data constantly during the landing.\\n\\n But Apollo 9 was a headache because of that problem, and we had some LM problems that we got through all right with our mission rules, our procedures and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that your mission rules changed for each flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.665738650581652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We had very few minor failures on the Lunar Module. We almost came close to calling an abort during the lunar landing, however, because of the descent engine. My people were monitoring the descent engine tank pressure, and when they landed, the heat soak back came in on the helium pressure tank. The descent engine was pressurized by helium to make the propellants flow into the engine. And then the helium tank started going up in temperature and pressure right after touchdown. The temperature causes a rise in pressure in the tank, and we were sweating it out in the LM team. And I could see us calling Flight and saying, “Abort, Recommend Abort,” because we had a mission rule that we would abort if the tank pressure got at a certain level. If the thing blew up, we were all in deep yogurt. The pressure came up, but it didn’t reach that point, and it peaked and everybody went, “Whew,” and that was right after landing. And that never got out. As far as I can remember, it never got out to the press.\\n\\n But otherwise, that was an outstanding mission. The Lunar Module worked very well, the crew did well, and I think we got most of the mission objectives. As far as I’m concerned, I think they got them all. We were all tense to see the power descent go well and the ascent, rendezvous, docking. It was very exciting, and it helped a lot to have everything work right on both spacecraft, believe me. But we didn’t take any chances. The guys were monitoring very closely the flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bob [Robert L.] Carlton."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carlton was one of my sections heads, and he was one of the MOCR operators. We called his position “LM Control.” It was an equivalent to the Command and Service Module Guidance, Navigation and Control, “GNC.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He shared with us the experience of having the stopwatch, counting down for the landing and having only a very few seconds left on that stopwatch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was on the powered descent team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a tense moment waiting for that landing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.40637627842406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carlton was one of my sections heads, and he was one of the MOCR operators. We called his position “LM Control.” It was an equivalent to the Command and Service Module Guidance, Navigation and Control, “GNC.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He shared with us the experience of having the stopwatch, counting down for the landing and having only a very few seconds left on that stopwatch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was on the powered descent team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a tense moment waiting for that landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were all very tense, but it worked out very well, except for that helium overpressure after landing.\\n\\n And I remember that one of the LM propulsion controllers saying, “Whew,” when the pressure leveled off. Apollo 11 was almost a picture-perfect mission, as far as I’m concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as far as the ascent from the Moon, that went well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.34041808713784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was on the powered descent team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a tense moment waiting for that landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were all very tense, but it worked out very well, except for that helium overpressure after landing.\\n\\n And I remember that one of the LM propulsion controllers saying, “Whew,” when the pressure leveled off. Apollo 11 was almost a picture-perfect mission, as far as I’m concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as far as the ascent from the Moon, that went well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything about that aspect that you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 18.156020096819823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were all very tense, but it worked out very well, except for that helium overpressure after landing.\\n\\n And I remember that one of the LM propulsion controllers saying, “Whew,” when the pressure leveled off. Apollo 11 was almost a picture-perfect mission, as far as I’m concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as far as the ascent from the Moon, that went well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything about that aspect that you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ascent engine ignition had to work or the crew was stuck on the Moon. But it ignited and they had the normal abort stage, pyrotechnics went off and separated the ascent stage from the descent stage, and the engine was working and up she went. The flight dynamics officers had calculated the right timing and everything, and it just was beautiful. It really was. All the Apollo flights went that way, as far as I’m concerned, except 13, during which we didn’t land. But all the landing missions were really good.\\n\\n The program had a block two LM starting on Apollo 15, 16, and 17. Those three missions had a more advanced Lunar Module, and it all went so well, with few, if any, problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I know Apollo 12, other than the lightning strike at the beginning, but that didn’t affect the LM at all, did it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.437768780399061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can, just walk us through the events and how they unfolded."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Lunar Module did not transmit any telemetry during translunar coast since it was powered down. So the Command and Service Module engineers were the ones that were watching their spacecraft, and that’s when the problem came. The CSM oxygen tank blew and they lost electric power. That is when the LM people started getting pretty active. One of the first actions was to pull together a team. Gene Kranz called it together. I remember meeting with him, and he called it a contingency mission planning team to figure out what we were going to do next.\\n\\n So that is when the LM lifeboat cases, we called them, that Don Puddy with this guys had prepared the year before, pulled those off the shelf as part of that contingency team and checked them out. There was a lot of work, lot of work. Not much sleep during that time. We powered up the LM and using these contingency procedures that we had prepared, because the LM was never designed to be a lifeboat. But it worked well. They shut down. The crew left the Command and Service Module, sealed the hatch, and the three guys got in the LM. Since the LM was only designed for two, it got pretty crowded in there.\\n\\n Then as they approached entry, they opened the hatch and went in the Command Module, powered it up, closed out the LM, and jettisoned it. We hated to see it go because it entered Earth orbit and, of course, burned up. I remember one of the crew saying, “Goodbye, Aquarius. You saved us.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of the group that was working on the oxygen and the carbon dioxide buildup?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, those were Command and Service Module people.\\n\\n But we did have an engineer working with them, just to know what was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, it was a relief when they did land.\\n\\n Are there any other memories about Apollo 13 that you’d like to share? I know part of what you did, and you mentioned Don Puddy’s group was looking for the contingency plans."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.416998494319827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, those were Command and Service Module people.\\n\\n But we did have an engineer working with them, just to know what was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, it was a relief when they did land.\\n\\n Are there any other memories about Apollo 13 that you’d like to share? I know part of what you did, and you mentioned Don Puddy’s group was looking for the contingency plans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a special team that was pulled together that took those old lifeboat procedures, massaged them, brought them up to date, and sent them up to the crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other types of contingency plans as far as using the LM in other types of emergency situations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just that one because of the simulation?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.463331660355363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a special team that was pulled together that took those old lifeboat procedures, massaged them, brought them up to date, and sent them up to the crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other types of contingency plans as far as using the LM in other types of emergency situations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just that one because of the simulation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes.\\n\\n We never simulated that exact failure, but the year before, they failed three fuel cells, and the flight director said, don’t worry about it, that’s three failures. But we worried about it, thank goodness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a good thing you did."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.625924067061515, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just that one because of the simulation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes.\\n\\n We never simulated that exact failure, but the year before, they failed three fuel cells, and the flight director said, don’t worry about it, that’s three failures. But we worried about it, thank goodness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a good thing you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During Apollo 11, of course, there was a lot of attention from the world. Apollo 12, not so much. By the time Apollo 13, it wasn’t quite getting as much attention until the accident happened. Were you surprised or were you aware of the amount of attention? Since you were onsite so much during Apollo 13, were you aware of what was going on as far as the world following this?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.917693407846127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes.\\n\\n We never simulated that exact failure, but the year before, they failed three fuel cells, and the flight director said, don’t worry about it, that’s three failures. But we worried about it, thank goodness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a good thing you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During Apollo 11, of course, there was a lot of attention from the world. Apollo 12, not so much. By the time Apollo 13, it wasn’t quite getting as much attention until the accident happened. Were you surprised or were you aware of the amount of attention? Since you were onsite so much during Apollo 13, were you aware of what was going on as far as the world following this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised that it got that much attention?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.352992675384584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During Apollo 11, of course, there was a lot of attention from the world. Apollo 12, not so much. By the time Apollo 13, it wasn’t quite getting as much attention until the accident happened. Were you surprised or were you aware of the amount of attention? Since you were onsite so much during Apollo 13, were you aware of what was going on as far as the world following this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised that it got that much attention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I really wasn’t. I was pleased that the public was concerned about our mission and what we were doing. The failure happened on the way out to the Moon, so we had to go to the Moon in the LM and circle around it and come back. You just couldn’t turn around and come home, because we didn’t have enough propellant in the engines to get a retrograde firing to come directly back home. So we just had to continue on.\\n\\n The Command and Service Module was separated from the LM. Both spacecraft went around the Moon separately. Everybody had their eyeballs glued on every parameter that was telemetered on the CSM when it came around into view. Apparently, there were a lot of people interested in it all around the world. But we didn’t have time to think about that. We were too busy with the vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, on Apollo 14, part of our research shows that an abort switch lit up on the panel, and there was a situation where, I believe, it was a flight controller was told to tell the astronauts to hit the panel. Do you recall that instance?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.947769639316205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised that it got that much attention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I really wasn’t. I was pleased that the public was concerned about our mission and what we were doing. The failure happened on the way out to the Moon, so we had to go to the Moon in the LM and circle around it and come back. You just couldn’t turn around and come home, because we didn’t have enough propellant in the engines to get a retrograde firing to come directly back home. So we just had to continue on.\\n\\n The Command and Service Module was separated from the LM. Both spacecraft went around the Moon separately. Everybody had their eyeballs glued on every parameter that was telemetered on the CSM when it came around into view. Apparently, there were a lot of people interested in it all around the world. But we didn’t have time to think about that. We were too busy with the vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, on Apollo 14, part of our research shows that an abort switch lit up on the panel, and there was a situation where, I believe, it was a flight controller was told to tell the astronauts to hit the panel. Do you recall that instance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To jar loose a relay or something? Yes. I don’t remember the results of that, because I don’t think the switch had failed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. It was just a thread or something."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.71974404368467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I really wasn’t. I was pleased that the public was concerned about our mission and what we were doing. The failure happened on the way out to the Moon, so we had to go to the Moon in the LM and circle around it and come back. You just couldn’t turn around and come home, because we didn’t have enough propellant in the engines to get a retrograde firing to come directly back home. So we just had to continue on.\\n\\n The Command and Service Module was separated from the LM. Both spacecraft went around the Moon separately. Everybody had their eyeballs glued on every parameter that was telemetered on the CSM when it came around into view. Apparently, there were a lot of people interested in it all around the world. But we didn’t have time to think about that. We were too busy with the vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, on Apollo 14, part of our research shows that an abort switch lit up on the panel, and there was a situation where, I believe, it was a flight controller was told to tell the astronauts to hit the panel. Do you recall that instance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To jar loose a relay or something? Yes. I don’t remember the results of that, because I don’t think the switch had failed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. It was just a thread or something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and ascent went smoothly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The rest of the Apollo missions went fairly smoothly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.688604492982968, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To jar loose a relay or something? Yes. I don’t remember the results of that, because I don’t think the switch had failed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. It was just a thread or something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and ascent went smoothly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The rest of the Apollo missions went fairly smoothly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some changes had to be done to the LM as far as carrying the Lunar Rover and for extended stays on the Moon."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.320671658869962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and ascent went smoothly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The rest of the Apollo missions went fairly smoothly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some changes had to be done to the LM as far as carrying the Lunar Rover and for extended stays on the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the “block two” LM that I mentioned previously. It was heavier, and carried more fuel, the LRV, Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the ALSEP Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package. The crew set up the ALSEP on the Moon. That was a very heavy vehicle, starting with 15.\\n\\n Watching them set up and assemble the Rover, not assemble it, but “unpackage” it, get on it, check it out, and ride it was pretty exciting to watch. But I didn’t have anything to do with that vehicle at all. The EMU [Extravehicular Mobility Unit], the backpack, was all, the only other thing besides the LM that we had in my branch.\\n\\n But those were excellent missions, 15, 16, 17. I wish we could have finished the last three missions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any specific memories of any of those missions or instances or anecdotes that you recall as far as during the missions or simulating for those missions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.134079620966624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some changes had to be done to the LM as far as carrying the Lunar Rover and for extended stays on the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the “block two” LM that I mentioned previously. It was heavier, and carried more fuel, the LRV, Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the ALSEP Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package. The crew set up the ALSEP on the Moon. That was a very heavy vehicle, starting with 15.\\n\\n Watching them set up and assemble the Rover, not assemble it, but “unpackage” it, get on it, check it out, and ride it was pretty exciting to watch. But I didn’t have anything to do with that vehicle at all. The EMU [Extravehicular Mobility Unit], the backpack, was all, the only other thing besides the LM that we had in my branch.\\n\\n But those were excellent missions, 15, 16, 17. I wish we could have finished the last three missions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any specific memories of any of those missions or instances or anecdotes that you recall as far as during the missions or simulating for those missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn’t involved in most of the simulations. I only sat in on a few of them. But I can’t recall anything that’s worthwhile talking about. I just remember that everything went so well, amazingly well, for the intricate technology and the systems, and the flight planning effort that went into it, the trajectory work. Everything was done so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, after the flights, and I know it started with Mercury and Gemini and continued with Apollo, after the flights, it was somewhat traditional to have splashdown parties?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 20.14897735662958, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the “block two” LM that I mentioned previously. It was heavier, and carried more fuel, the LRV, Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the ALSEP Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package. The crew set up the ALSEP on the Moon. That was a very heavy vehicle, starting with 15.\\n\\n Watching them set up and assemble the Rover, not assemble it, but “unpackage” it, get on it, check it out, and ride it was pretty exciting to watch. But I didn’t have anything to do with that vehicle at all. The EMU [Extravehicular Mobility Unit], the backpack, was all, the only other thing besides the LM that we had in my branch.\\n\\n But those were excellent missions, 15, 16, 17. I wish we could have finished the last three missions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any specific memories of any of those missions or instances or anecdotes that you recall as far as during the missions or simulating for those missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn’t involved in most of the simulations. I only sat in on a few of them. But I can’t recall anything that’s worthwhile talking about. I just remember that everything went so well, amazingly well, for the intricate technology and the systems, and the flight planning effort that went into it, the trajectory work. Everything was done so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, after the flights, and I know it started with Mercury and Gemini and continued with Apollo, after the flights, it was somewhat traditional to have splashdown parties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any of those or did you go to those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 19.21959664171556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I don’t remember much of what was going on in the world most of the time. If we weren’t on the console, we were busy in the mission rules review or something else, or sleeping. You’re right. We were somewhat insulated. I should say “isolated,” maybe is a better word, from everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You lived in Dickinson [Texas] next to Gene Kranz, and there were different areas that seemed to be a large concentration of people that worked at NASA living in areas together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but Dickinson didn’t have that many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were communities built up and, as you mentioned, a lot of the men were gone so many hours and a lot of the wives in the communities kind of picked up and shared those duties that maybe some of the men would have been taking part in if they hadn’t been working such long hours. Do you have any memories about the community feeling or anything that was going on during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn’t have many astronauts and NASA people in Dickinson where I lived. A lot of that was going on up in Clear Lake City [Texas] and adjacent to the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space Center.\n\nWhy did you choose Dickinson when you moved in?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.58298527924944, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay.\\n\\n [pause]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we stopped, we were going to talk about your involvement in the Shuttle. You mentioned that you didn’t have a lot to do with the ALT Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No I did not. I had the Shuttle systems people in the branch, but I was on the SPAN console on STS-1. And it was such a good flight. There were a lot of concerns with failure modes, but they didn’t happen. We had a superior crew that knew what they were doing, and it was just one of the most exciting flights I can ever remember, as I said, because it had wings, and I liked that!. Having studied aerodynamics, I liked the airplane with wings on it. STS-1 began the whole Shuttle experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during that time between the end of Apollo and the beginning of Shuttle and, of course, there was ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] and Skylab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Skylab and then ASTP, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were working on some of the mission rules and procedures and everything for Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.869983643610489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No I did not. I had the Shuttle systems people in the branch, but I was on the SPAN console on STS-1. And it was such a good flight. There were a lot of concerns with failure modes, but they didn’t happen. We had a superior crew that knew what they were doing, and it was just one of the most exciting flights I can ever remember, as I said, because it had wings, and I liked that!. Having studied aerodynamics, I liked the airplane with wings on it. STS-1 began the whole Shuttle experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during that time between the end of Apollo and the beginning of Shuttle and, of course, there was ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] and Skylab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Skylab and then ASTP, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were working on some of the mission rules and procedures and everything for Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were already working on the early Shuttle flight rules and mission rules and procedures as we did on Apollo. My people were in the Shuttle systems early and were making trips back and forth to California, while still working on the latter part of Apollo and ASTP. But the Shuttle, it was a lot of development time on that program, because it was a much more complicated vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you about that. Considering the LM, which obviously was a complicated vehicle, but then going—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.299981826233877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Skylab and then ASTP, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were working on some of the mission rules and procedures and everything for Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were already working on the early Shuttle flight rules and mission rules and procedures as we did on Apollo. My people were in the Shuttle systems early and were making trips back and forth to California, while still working on the latter part of Apollo and ASTP. But the Shuttle, it was a lot of development time on that program, because it was a much more complicated vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you about that. Considering the LM, which obviously was a complicated vehicle, but then going—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing like the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—going to the Shuttle, which was so complicated, and having to develop all those procedures and rules."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.666646473593197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were already working on the early Shuttle flight rules and mission rules and procedures as we did on Apollo. My people were in the Shuttle systems early and were making trips back and forth to California, while still working on the latter part of Apollo and ASTP. But the Shuttle, it was a lot of development time on that program, because it was a much more complicated vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you about that. Considering the LM, which obviously was a complicated vehicle, but then going—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing like the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—going to the Shuttle, which was so complicated, and having to develop all those procedures and rules."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very complicated. In fact, the program was too expensive, too complicated. The checkout took too long at the Cape. We didn’t fly that many Shuttle flights, I don’t remember how many.\\n\\n One of the questions you were asking, was about what led to my retirement, decision to leave NASA. It was just retirement time for me. I had the right number of years with the government, and I retired and went to work for Lockheed, then Eagle Engineering there in the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space Center area. But it was a retirement time for me, and frankly, there wasn’t anything coming. We had no new program coming at that time.\\n\\n Congress had not allowed us to fly any more Apollo missions, and Skylab was a long mission, and after that, they had another Skylab vehicle, but that was not flown. And after STS-1, I concluded that it was time to move on.\n\nBut you still worked in the area for different contractors for NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.074051637325773, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing like the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—going to the Shuttle, which was so complicated, and having to develop all those procedures and rules."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very complicated. In fact, the program was too expensive, too complicated. The checkout took too long at the Cape. We didn’t fly that many Shuttle flights, I don’t remember how many.\\n\\n One of the questions you were asking, was about what led to my retirement, decision to leave NASA. It was just retirement time for me. I had the right number of years with the government, and I retired and went to work for Lockheed, then Eagle Engineering there in the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space Center area. But it was a retirement time for me, and frankly, there wasn’t anything coming. We had no new program coming at that time.\\n\\n Congress had not allowed us to fly any more Apollo missions, and Skylab was a long mission, and after that, they had another Skylab vehicle, but that was not flown. And after STS-1, I concluded that it was time to move on.\n\nBut you still worked in the area for different contractors for NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, after retirement I worked for Lockheed to do the STSOC (Space Transportation System Operations Contract) proposal, but other than that, I did not go with another major contractor. I joined a small engineering firm, Eagle Engineering for several years.\\n\\n I did the Lockheed proposal in support of Flight Operations, which was awarded to McDonnell Douglas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share memories of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.193390708139749, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very complicated. In fact, the program was too expensive, too complicated. The checkout took too long at the Cape. We didn’t fly that many Shuttle flights, I don’t remember how many.\\n\\n One of the questions you were asking, was about what led to my retirement, decision to leave NASA. It was just retirement time for me. I had the right number of years with the government, and I retired and went to work for Lockheed, then Eagle Engineering there in the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space Center area. But it was a retirement time for me, and frankly, there wasn’t anything coming. We had no new program coming at that time.\\n\\n Congress had not allowed us to fly any more Apollo missions, and Skylab was a long mission, and after that, they had another Skylab vehicle, but that was not flown. And after STS-1, I concluded that it was time to move on.\n\nBut you still worked in the area for different contractors for NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, after retirement I worked for Lockheed to do the STSOC (Space Transportation System Operations Contract) proposal, but other than that, I did not go with another major contractor. I joined a small engineering firm, Eagle Engineering for several years.\\n\\n I did the Lockheed proposal in support of Flight Operations, which was awarded to McDonnell Douglas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share memories of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Proposal work was hard work, and I did some of the hardest work I’d ever done because I’d never done a proposal before. I worked with Jim Bilodeau, who had been Division Chief of the JSC Training Division in Flight Operations. He worked with me on the Operations part of that proposal. And I can’t recall how long it was, but it seemed like it was years! McDonnell Douglas won the contract, and I left the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during that time you were working for Scott Science and Technology."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.325989675710831, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, after retirement I worked for Lockheed to do the STSOC (Space Transportation System Operations Contract) proposal, but other than that, I did not go with another major contractor. I joined a small engineering firm, Eagle Engineering for several years.\\n\\n I did the Lockheed proposal in support of Flight Operations, which was awarded to McDonnell Douglas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share memories of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Proposal work was hard work, and I did some of the hardest work I’d ever done because I’d never done a proposal before. I worked with Jim Bilodeau, who had been Division Chief of the JSC Training Division in Flight Operations. He worked with me on the Operations part of that proposal. And I can’t recall how long it was, but it seemed like it was years! McDonnell Douglas won the contract, and I left the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during that time you were working for Scott Science and Technology."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for Dave [David R.] Scott after Lockheed, and it was working Air Force programs, the classified programs that the Air Force was going to use the Space Shuttle for. They were paying us at Scott Science and Technology to use our background in manned space flight, because at that time the Air Force was going to fly several of their missions on the Shuttle. As it turned out, they had only one Air Force mission, a classified one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1986, when I believe you were working for Eagle Engineering at that time, is when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident happened."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.251099639678701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Proposal work was hard work, and I did some of the hardest work I’d ever done because I’d never done a proposal before. I worked with Jim Bilodeau, who had been Division Chief of the JSC Training Division in Flight Operations. He worked with me on the Operations part of that proposal. And I can’t recall how long it was, but it seemed like it was years! McDonnell Douglas won the contract, and I left the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, during that time you were working for Scott Science and Technology."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for Dave [David R.] Scott after Lockheed, and it was working Air Force programs, the classified programs that the Air Force was going to use the Space Shuttle for. They were paying us at Scott Science and Technology to use our background in manned space flight, because at that time the Air Force was going to fly several of their missions on the Shuttle. As it turned out, they had only one Air Force mission, a classified one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1986, when I believe you were working for Eagle Engineering at that time, is when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember that day! I was in the Ford Aerospace Building, which is not onsite. Several of us from Eagle were working with Ford Aerospace on some work at Eagle.\\n\\n We weren’t monitoring the mission, but we had the capability, so they turned on their voice loops and we heard what had happened. So I was not able to monitor much real time activity when that accident occurred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned during Apollo and before you worked closely with the crews."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.278999599643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for Dave [David R.] Scott after Lockheed, and it was working Air Force programs, the classified programs that the Air Force was going to use the Space Shuttle for. They were paying us at Scott Science and Technology to use our background in manned space flight, because at that time the Air Force was going to fly several of their missions on the Shuttle. As it turned out, they had only one Air Force mission, a classified one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1986, when I believe you were working for Eagle Engineering at that time, is when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember that day! I was in the Ford Aerospace Building, which is not onsite. Several of us from Eagle were working with Ford Aerospace on some work at Eagle.\\n\\n We weren’t monitoring the mission, but we had the capability, so they turned on their voice loops and we heard what had happened. So I was not able to monitor much real time activity when that accident occurred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned during Apollo and before you worked closely with the crews."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, during simulations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During simulations and that sort of thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.421110666270001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember that day! I was in the Ford Aerospace Building, which is not onsite. Several of us from Eagle were working with Ford Aerospace on some work at Eagle.\\n\\n We weren’t monitoring the mission, but we had the capability, so they turned on their voice loops and we heard what had happened. So I was not able to monitor much real time activity when that accident occurred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned during Apollo and before you worked closely with the crews."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, during simulations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During simulations and that sort of thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the mission rule meetings and, particularly the crew procedures meetings. We would prepare most of the procedures. Some of the procedures were pretty obvious what you did, but there were a lot of them that were kind of subtle, and so that’s how we got to know them very well by working so closely with the flight crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1978 when the first Shuttle class came through, did you have any interaction with the Shuttle pilots and Mission Specialists?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.467900740300001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, during simulations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During simulations and that sort of thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the mission rule meetings and, particularly the crew procedures meetings. We would prepare most of the procedures. Some of the procedures were pretty obvious what you did, but there were a lot of them that were kind of subtle, and so that’s how we got to know them very well by working so closely with the flight crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1978 when the first Shuttle class came through, did you have any interaction with the Shuttle pilots and Mission Specialists?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some minimal interaction with the Shuttle pilots. Not with the Mission Specialists, just always the commander or Shuttle pilot. Mission Specialists were more science-oriented, but we worked with John Young and his copilot, Robert L. Crippen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point you went to Germany and worked in Germany for a while."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.075445267000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the mission rule meetings and, particularly the crew procedures meetings. We would prepare most of the procedures. Some of the procedures were pretty obvious what you did, but there were a lot of them that were kind of subtle, and so that’s how we got to know them very well by working so closely with the flight crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1978 when the first Shuttle class came through, did you have any interaction with the Shuttle pilots and Mission Specialists?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some minimal interaction with the Shuttle pilots. Not with the Mission Specialists, just always the commander or Shuttle pilot. Mission Specialists were more science-oriented, but we worked with John Young and his copilot, Robert L. Crippen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point you went to Germany and worked in Germany for a while."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for Scott Science and Technology. I was providing them the same type Shuttle experience and information the Air Force wanted. Germany had a Shuttle flight dedicated to their science experiments, STS-9. It was basically an all-scientific mission and it was European, but Germany was the leader of that activity. So that was in 1981, I think, Peggy and I went over. I went over four times to Germany, and the last time, I took Peggy and my daughter Mary and we stayed over there three weeks. During the weekends, we would drive all over in a rented car.\\n\\n That was a fun program to work with them and give them my experience. I helped them work in preparing the procedures for their experiments, and what to do in case of emergencies, etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also worked on some of the preliminary plans for Space Station Freedom, while at Eagle. Do you have any memories of working on those first plans? The first Space Station?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.639383630000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some minimal interaction with the Shuttle pilots. Not with the Mission Specialists, just always the commander or Shuttle pilot. Mission Specialists were more science-oriented, but we worked with John Young and his copilot, Robert L. Crippen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point you went to Germany and worked in Germany for a while."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for Scott Science and Technology. I was providing them the same type Shuttle experience and information the Air Force wanted. Germany had a Shuttle flight dedicated to their science experiments, STS-9. It was basically an all-scientific mission and it was European, but Germany was the leader of that activity. So that was in 1981, I think, Peggy and I went over. I went over four times to Germany, and the last time, I took Peggy and my daughter Mary and we stayed over there three weeks. During the weekends, we would drive all over in a rented car.\\n\\n That was a fun program to work with them and give them my experience. I helped them work in preparing the procedures for their experiments, and what to do in case of emergencies, etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also worked on some of the preliminary plans for Space Station Freedom, while at Eagle. Do you have any memories of working on those first plans? The first Space Station?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have very few memories of that activity.\\n\\n I did some work on a program that was never implemented. It was a proposal for a crew entry vehicle that was planned, and I worked with another guy on developing some early procedures and things like that. It was called a CERV, crew emergency rescue vehicle. But it never went past the talking stage, but we did provide help, two of us at Eagle, on that program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, looking back over your career with NASA, is there any time period of any accomplishment for you personally that you remember that you might have been the most proud of?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.12947, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I still think that Apollo 13 was probably the highlight of my career, because my branch had been forward-thinking enough to concern itself with the problems that happened on that simulation the year before and to do something about it, in spite of what the flight director said. And to end up using them on 13, which was almost—it was uncanny. The Apollo 13 accident occurred at almost the same elapsed time during the mission that the same event occurred on the simulation where they failed three fuel cells going out on translunar coast. I think that mission capped it all off for me for the LM.\\n\\n I didn’t see that many Shuttle flights before I left NASA. Bob “Crip” Crippen was a great pilot, and they couldn’t have picked two better people for the first flight as far as knowledge of the vehicles and flight capability. They both had excellent backgrounds as pilots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there anything in your career that you would consider the most challenging? I know you mentioned Apollo 13 as a challenging time. Was there anything else that was challenging as far as being able to accomplish what you set out to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, it was challenging when I first got there to learn to be a flight controller and what we had to do. During the Gemini Program when I first started taking on the early Apollo Lunar Module work, that was exciting! Thank of going to the Moon! I think all that work that contributed to the success of Apollo was pretty exciting, pretty challenging. I don’t have any one outstanding moment or anything, except for the Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 incident.\\n\\n I was concerned about the Shuttle because it was far more complex than the previous spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the redundancy that you kept in the Shuttle, also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a lot of redundancy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we talked about at the beginning, when you and Mel Brooks were first hired by Gene Kranz, one of the reasons was that you were both a little bit older. The average age working in the MOCR during Apollo was, I think, twenty-six or something really young like that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.5883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, it was challenging when I first got there to learn to be a flight controller and what we had to do. During the Gemini Program when I first started taking on the early Apollo Lunar Module work, that was exciting! Thank of going to the Moon! I think all that work that contributed to the success of Apollo was pretty exciting, pretty challenging. I don’t have any one outstanding moment or anything, except for the Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 incident.\\n\\n I was concerned about the Shuttle because it was far more complex than the previous spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the redundancy that you kept in the Shuttle, also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a lot of redundancy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we talked about at the beginning, when you and Mel Brooks were first hired by Gene Kranz, one of the reasons was that you were both a little bit older. The average age working in the MOCR during Apollo was, I think, twenty-six or something really young like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mel and I were in our early thirties, at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was that, working with such a young group of people, or do you feel that maybe the energy level was different?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9869999999999997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a lot of redundancy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we talked about at the beginning, when you and Mel Brooks were first hired by Gene Kranz, one of the reasons was that you were both a little bit older. The average age working in the MOCR during Apollo was, I think, twenty-six or something really young like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mel and I were in our early thirties, at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was that, working with such a young group of people, or do you feel that maybe the energy level was different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I never considered that aspect at all. I didn’t see any adverse effects either way. I only know that Gene hired us because he was looking for some experience. I had it with Lockheed Georgia and then with the Air Force flight test work at Eglin, and Mel had it with Lockheed Burbank from working the Agena Program. He brought a lot of that experience into the Agena that we used on Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there anything that we haven’t talked about, any anecdotes that you’d like to mention or any people that maybe you worked with that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.43, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mel and I were in our early thirties, at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was that, working with such a young group of people, or do you feel that maybe the energy level was different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I never considered that aspect at all. I didn’t see any adverse effects either way. I only know that Gene hired us because he was looking for some experience. I had it with Lockheed Georgia and then with the Air Force flight test work at Eglin, and Mel had it with Lockheed Burbank from working the Agena Program. He brought a lot of that experience into the Agena that we used on Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there anything that we haven’t talked about, any anecdotes that you’d like to mention or any people that maybe you worked with that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we talked about SPAN, Spacecraft Analysis, which was somewhat a misnomer. I mean spacecraft analysis; everybody did that, all the systems people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anyone else to mention or anybody we haven’t talked about? I know you mentioned Gene Kranz and Chris Kraft."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we talked about SPAN, Spacecraft Analysis, which was somewhat a misnomer. I mean spacecraft analysis; everybody did that, all the systems people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anyone else to mention or anybody we haven’t talked about? I know you mentioned Gene Kranz and Chris Kraft."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kraft was our Directorate Head and Gene was my Division Chief and I was a Branch Chief under him. Early on, I was a section head, and everybody got elevated up one level. I made a lot of friends, a lot of good people, spent a lot of time with them in work and simulations and planning meetings and working during the missions.\\n\\n We kind of had an adversary, we thought, at the time, which was the Program Office, whether it was Apollo or Shuttle. They didn’t want any changes made to any of their spacecraft designs, because it meant spending money. And during these design reviews, we would come up with some changes that we proposed for certain things, more redundancy perhaps in certain areas maybe, and it was kind of an adversarial relationship on occasion, but not too bad. It only showed up a few times.\\n\\n I’m glad I didn’t work in the Program Office. I don’t think I would have liked that job. But being a flight controller with Flight Operations was great, and Gene Kranz made it that way. We could have had another guy, it would never have been as successful as Gene. He was an incredible flight director. He knew everything that was going on, was smart, and having been an F-100 pilot, he knew radio discipline and how to speak over the loop. He was very crisp on the loop. When he spoke, people moved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your position, I’m sure you worked with lots of different flight directors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of different personalities. Are there any other ones that come to mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kraft was our Directorate Head and Gene was my Division Chief and I was a Branch Chief under him. Early on, I was a section head, and everybody got elevated up one level. I made a lot of friends, a lot of good people, spent a lot of time with them in work and simulations and planning meetings and working during the missions.\\n\\n We kind of had an adversary, we thought, at the time, which was the Program Office, whether it was Apollo or Shuttle. They didn’t want any changes made to any of their spacecraft designs, because it meant spending money. And during these design reviews, we would come up with some changes that we proposed for certain things, more redundancy perhaps in certain areas maybe, and it was kind of an adversarial relationship on occasion, but not too bad. It only showed up a few times.\\n\\n I’m glad I didn’t work in the Program Office. I don’t think I would have liked that job. But being a flight controller with Flight Operations was great, and Gene Kranz made it that way. We could have had another guy, it would never have been as successful as Gene. He was an incredible flight director. He knew everything that was going on, was smart, and having been an F-100 pilot, he knew radio discipline and how to speak over the loop. He was very crisp on the loop. When he spoke, people moved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your position, I’m sure you worked with lots of different flight directors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of different personalities. Are there any other ones that come to mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Glynn [S.] Lunney was, I liked him. He was a flight director as well as Chief, of the Flight Dynamics Branch. And I didn’t know the newer flight directors that came after I left. Don Puddy, my former Assistant Branch Chief, became a flight director, and he was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if there’s not anything else that you want to talk about."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a lot of different personalities. Are there any other ones that come to mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Glynn [S.] Lunney was, I liked him. He was a flight director as well as Chief, of the Flight Dynamics Branch. And I didn’t know the newer flight directors that came after I left. Don Puddy, my former Assistant Branch Chief, became a flight director, and he was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if there’s not anything else that you want to talk about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I honestly can’t think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, we’ll get you through before noon."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00221:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Glynn [S.] Lunney was, I liked him. He was a flight director as well as Chief, of the Flight Dynamics Branch. And I didn’t know the newer flight directors that came after I left. Don Puddy, my former Assistant Branch Chief, became a flight director, and he was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if there’s not anything else that you want to talk about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I honestly can’t think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, we’ll get you through before noon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I appreciate you talking with us today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.4454973479708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm all over the lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that's fine. We were talking about New York and you wanted to go to work with\\n\\n Life\\n\\n , because they had all of the wonderful stories and coverage of the astronauts."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you become involved with that aspect? Did\\n\\n Life\\n\\n give you that chance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's just this great desire and then making it happen.\\n\\n Life\\n\\n didn't come looking for me; I went looking for them and made many visits there to the art directors and showed my portfolio many times before I finally got an assignment. Then I was established rather quickly as one of their artists and I did a lot of work for them for ten years, more than that, most of it having to do with military, aviation, space in particular. I did two covers, did a lot of interior paintings, big spreads, important articles and so forth.\\n\\n I did some work for\\n\\n Saturday Evening Post\\n\\n , too, when it was a weekly publication, and\\n\\n Collier's\\n\\n and lots of magazines. A lot of work for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n , which is still published. A lot of covers for them, cover art that had to do with those special skills that I have as an illustrator and rendering and painting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know one of the ones you did for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n is an illustration of the Crawler."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 47.16166371996756, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you become involved with that aspect? Did\\n\\n Life\\n\\n give you that chance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's just this great desire and then making it happen.\\n\\n Life\\n\\n didn't come looking for me; I went looking for them and made many visits there to the art directors and showed my portfolio many times before I finally got an assignment. Then I was established rather quickly as one of their artists and I did a lot of work for them for ten years, more than that, most of it having to do with military, aviation, space in particular. I did two covers, did a lot of interior paintings, big spreads, important articles and so forth.\\n\\n I did some work for\\n\\n Saturday Evening Post\\n\\n , too, when it was a weekly publication, and\\n\\n Collier's\\n\\n and lots of magazines. A lot of work for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n , which is still published. A lot of covers for them, cover art that had to do with those special skills that I have as an illustrator and rendering and painting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know one of the ones you did for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n is an illustration of the Crawler."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have a copy of that at the office. How were you asked to do that? Was that based on work that you had already done for NASA, or was that part of the beginning days where you were allowed into those areas that you could see?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 51.29073746663062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's just this great desire and then making it happen.\\n\\n Life\\n\\n didn't come looking for me; I went looking for them and made many visits there to the art directors and showed my portfolio many times before I finally got an assignment. Then I was established rather quickly as one of their artists and I did a lot of work for them for ten years, more than that, most of it having to do with military, aviation, space in particular. I did two covers, did a lot of interior paintings, big spreads, important articles and so forth.\\n\\n I did some work for\\n\\n Saturday Evening Post\\n\\n , too, when it was a weekly publication, and\\n\\n Collier's\\n\\n and lots of magazines. A lot of work for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n , which is still published. A lot of covers for them, cover art that had to do with those special skills that I have as an illustrator and rendering and painting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know one of the ones you did for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n is an illustration of the Crawler."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have a copy of that at the office. How were you asked to do that? Was that based on work that you had already done for NASA, or was that part of the beginning days where you were allowed into those areas that you could see?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How did that happen? And was that\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n or was it\\n\\n Life\\n\\n ? The Crawler with the Saturn rocket on it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it was an illustration."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 46.223046065426125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't done recently, but yet when you stand there and look at it, it takes you through the history and into the future."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us your thoughts when you were putting that whole mural together, what you were thinking and what you wanted to tell the viewers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. By the way, all of my murals, every one of them, have been done with no direction. In other words, they said, \"we'd like you to do something,\" and then I did it. I made designs and miniatures that I then submitted and said, \"What do you think? I think this is what we should do,\" and almost without exception, without any changes at all, I have done what I wanted to do, which is really nice.\\n\\n But in that case, I wanted to tell the story of our space program, our manned space program, pretty much from the beginning. So that imagery really carries us from the earliest launches, and they're only small indications, but they're in there, the story of our manned space program from the Mercury spacecraft to the Gemini and then Apollo and then finally Shuttle, and then looking into the future with some fantastic space stations orbiting that are really just dreams of a future that might be.\\n\\n So I made a lot of small sketches first for myself, just arriving at what I wanted to do. Who was I working with? I think Chuck, Chuck Biggs. I wonder, did Chris have any—I think he saw the sketches that I made and okayed them, and not with me present or anything, but I probably presented them to Chuck, who was sort of in charge of my project. Neat guy. I've liked him. I've known him for so many years, long before I ever worked on anything directly for NASA. When I was working for some of my\\n\\n Life\\n\\n projects, I've made contact with him.\\n\\n Lou [Louis A.] Parker. Now, of course, I think he's still—is he still there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 51.358940072695695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us your thoughts when you were putting that whole mural together, what you were thinking and what you wanted to tell the viewers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. By the way, all of my murals, every one of them, have been done with no direction. In other words, they said, \"we'd like you to do something,\" and then I did it. I made designs and miniatures that I then submitted and said, \"What do you think? I think this is what we should do,\" and almost without exception, without any changes at all, I have done what I wanted to do, which is really nice.\\n\\n But in that case, I wanted to tell the story of our space program, our manned space program, pretty much from the beginning. So that imagery really carries us from the earliest launches, and they're only small indications, but they're in there, the story of our manned space program from the Mercury spacecraft to the Gemini and then Apollo and then finally Shuttle, and then looking into the future with some fantastic space stations orbiting that are really just dreams of a future that might be.\\n\\n So I made a lot of small sketches first for myself, just arriving at what I wanted to do. Who was I working with? I think Chuck, Chuck Biggs. I wonder, did Chris have any—I think he saw the sketches that I made and okayed them, and not with me present or anything, but I probably presented them to Chuck, who was sort of in charge of my project. Neat guy. I've liked him. I've known him for so many years, long before I ever worked on anything directly for NASA. When I was working for some of my\\n\\n Life\\n\\n projects, I've made contact with him.\\n\\n Lou [Louis A.] Parker. Now, of course, I think he's still—is he still there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you know the name?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I know the name, but I don't know if he's still there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 24, "return_to_go": 60.93696305271074, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you know the name?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I know the name, but I don't know if he's still there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Time does go, doesn't it? Flies. I talked to Lou as recently as maybe a couple years ago. He was still there. He may still be.\\n\\n Anyway, it has been an involvement that has certainly affected my whole career in a very positive way, wonderful way. It has influenced profoundly what I have done and what I am continuing to do. It's proved something to me, that is that humanity, humankind, is capable of almost anything, given the imperative and the need to make it happen. We do awesome things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's kind of how we felt when we saw your work at the Smithsonian. You turn around and you're just there gazing at it and you become part of this larger picture of what can happen, what has happened and what will happen. Did you undertake that massive project by yourself, or did you have helpers helping you put that together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I did it all myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We were visiting about your mural at the Smithsonian, and that it is so awesome when you take a look at it. Could you share with us how that unfolded, as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 36.72182434684326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of those stamps?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of the stamps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's the Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project], because it's the biggest, and I collaborated with, or at least an artist in Moscow designed one and his stamp was a double stamp, my stamp was a double stamp. That is, they can be pulled apart and you've got two stamps, but the picture can transcend the separation part. I think that may be. I think it's a very—well, maybe also the benefiting humankind stamp, which is eight stamps that are all associated and connected that form a single picture, but also, when separated, each separated piece is a complete picture, too. That may be my favorite. It's very colorful. And I won some kind of an award for that among stamp collectors.\\n\\n So the stamps, the mission emblems, the involvement with the movie industry, which it came about through my involvement with NASA. My work with [Stanley] Kubrick in London was another facet of my career that was especially enjoyable and challenging and significant, in that it was for a film that has since become a classic,\\n\\n 2001\\n\\n A Space Odyssey\\n\\n . It was a good experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He saw your work in\\n\\n Life\\n\\n ? Is that how your connection began?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly, yes. Kubrick had clipped some of my stuff from\\n\\n Life\\n\\n magazine as kind of a reference. He worked in London, and until he died, he worked there, and did all of his work there. Have you seen\\n\\n Eyes Wide Shut\\n\\n , by the way?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I have not."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.924258231327144, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I see that you've got one, and I'm glad that you've got that. The first book that I did was with Isaac Asimov. You know that name?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isaac was somebody that I had met in Manhattan and had come to know. I asked him if he'd write the book. Not being a writer, I needed somebody to write a text, and, of course, somebody of that stature was very important. I got Buzz [Edwin E.] Aldrin to write the foreword to that very book. It was published in, I think, 1971 or '72. It's called\\n\\n Our World In Space\\n\\n by Robert McCall and Isaac Asimov. Since it was my concept and idea, and even though Isaac was the big name on the cover, my name comes first. I remember talking to him about that. He wrote about it in one of his subsequent books, the fact that we had lunch one time, and I said, \"Now, Isaac, you're the author of this book, of course, but it's still my idea, and all these paintings are already in existence, and they will form the body of this work, and the reason for its publication.\"\\n\\n He said, \"Yes, you deserve to be mentioned first.\"\\n\\n So that was kind of—because he, of course, is a huge name in authorship of stories that have to do with science and science fiction and science fact and a lot of other stuff, too. Incredible man.\\n\\n Then my second book was written by Ben Bova. Do you know that name?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know the name, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ben wrote my second book, and that book is entitled\\n\\n A Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\\n\\n by Ben Bova. It has some of those drawings that I made when the cosmonauts were present and where I first met Alexi Leonov, who is a colorful personality. Have you interviewed him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I have not."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.91584247925238, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isaac was somebody that I had met in Manhattan and had come to know. I asked him if he'd write the book. Not being a writer, I needed somebody to write a text, and, of course, somebody of that stature was very important. I got Buzz [Edwin E.] Aldrin to write the foreword to that very book. It was published in, I think, 1971 or '72. It's called\\n\\n Our World In Space\\n\\n by Robert McCall and Isaac Asimov. Since it was my concept and idea, and even though Isaac was the big name on the cover, my name comes first. I remember talking to him about that. He wrote about it in one of his subsequent books, the fact that we had lunch one time, and I said, \"Now, Isaac, you're the author of this book, of course, but it's still my idea, and all these paintings are already in existence, and they will form the body of this work, and the reason for its publication.\"\\n\\n He said, \"Yes, you deserve to be mentioned first.\"\\n\\n So that was kind of—because he, of course, is a huge name in authorship of stories that have to do with science and science fiction and science fact and a lot of other stuff, too. Incredible man.\\n\\n Then my second book was written by Ben Bova. Do you know that name?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know the name, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ben wrote my second book, and that book is entitled\\n\\n A Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\\n\\n by Ben Bova. It has some of those drawings that I made when the cosmonauts were present and where I first met Alexi Leonov, who is a colorful personality. Have you interviewed him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I have not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But he is one great personality in the history of all of this, and one that our astronauts have come to know probably better than any of the other cosmonauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About ten years after Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, you entered into a project with a space artist of the Soviet Union."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 22, "return_to_go": 44.350936088058205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ben wrote my second book, and that book is entitled\\n\\n A Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\\n\\n by Ben Bova. It has some of those drawings that I made when the cosmonauts were present and where I first met Alexi Leonov, who is a colorful personality. Have you interviewed him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I have not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But he is one great personality in the history of all of this, and one that our astronauts have come to know probably better than any of the other cosmonauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About ten years after Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, you entered into a project with a space artist of the Soviet Union."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us how that developed and what difficulties that you might have had to endure to get that work done?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 34.06635587266911, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your counterpart was able to see the finished product as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's never been to Russia since. He wanted to get it over there, but there were no funds to do it. It would have had to have been crated again, taken apart. By this time I had a special frame made for it, big heavy frame. Does that frame come apart, too? Anyway, it's never been to Russia. He would love to have had it there, and it was up to him to do it. I was afraid if it went to Russia—I didn't encourage it, because if it went to Russia, it would never, ever get back here. I just knew I'd never see it again. And it's an important part of my collection.\\n\\n So I paid him. I bought his half of it, and I paid a significant amount of money to him, more than he probably ever would hope to get, but I felt that it had a certain value and that I had to do that, and I did, and he was delighted. So it now is my property and part of my collection, but with a great story behind it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Such a historic partnership, especially in that time frame in our relationship with Russia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We do have a new relationship with Russia. In fact, the nineties was spent as part of the Shuttle-Mir program with NASA. Have you had any chance to be involved with that, illustrating that as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 36.74039541407679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's never been to Russia since. He wanted to get it over there, but there were no funds to do it. It would have had to have been crated again, taken apart. By this time I had a special frame made for it, big heavy frame. Does that frame come apart, too? Anyway, it's never been to Russia. He would love to have had it there, and it was up to him to do it. I was afraid if it went to Russia—I didn't encourage it, because if it went to Russia, it would never, ever get back here. I just knew I'd never see it again. And it's an important part of my collection.\\n\\n So I paid him. I bought his half of it, and I paid a significant amount of money to him, more than he probably ever would hope to get, but I felt that it had a certain value and that I had to do that, and I did, and he was delighted. So it now is my property and part of my collection, but with a great story behind it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Such a historic partnership, especially in that time frame in our relationship with Russia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We do have a new relationship with Russia. In fact, the nineties was spent as part of the Shuttle-Mir program with NASA. Have you had any chance to be involved with that, illustrating that as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I designed the mission emblem for Hoot [Robert L.] Gibson. Are you aware of that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I didn't know that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.962989066837338, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were doing those first drawings, how important was it to you to learn as much as you could so that those sketches could be used for historical value?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was important. It was more important maybe than it is now. No, it's still important, but I paint with greater freedom. That's something that commercial artists kind of have to fight. Because I was trained as an illustrator. Illustrators put in the detail, because their clients want it. They want to see every nut and bolt. Yet great art often is not concerned with all the details. It's the impression. It's the symbolism, and a lot of other more esoteric aspects of art that are more important. It's the emotional impact of the final result, not so much the little details that could even get in the way of the emotional power and impact. But, yes, detail was important. Being authentic, being accurate, but still, as an artist, now recognizing that you can tell the story with even greater success, often when you are not too limited or too constrained by including every detail. You're following that, aren't you? Because it's very, very easily understood and obviously in writing. Some the greatest writers don't put all the words in that they could. As a matter of fact, you can be too descriptive, maybe. So it's the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were there when NASA was an infant and have depicted its growth through all these decades."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How have you had to adapt to the change in technology that NASA has undergone? That very—I use the word very loosely—simple drawing of those first rockets, but yet now things are a little more complex."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 27.736654518708153, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was important. It was more important maybe than it is now. No, it's still important, but I paint with greater freedom. That's something that commercial artists kind of have to fight. Because I was trained as an illustrator. Illustrators put in the detail, because their clients want it. They want to see every nut and bolt. Yet great art often is not concerned with all the details. It's the impression. It's the symbolism, and a lot of other more esoteric aspects of art that are more important. It's the emotional impact of the final result, not so much the little details that could even get in the way of the emotional power and impact. But, yes, detail was important. Being authentic, being accurate, but still, as an artist, now recognizing that you can tell the story with even greater success, often when you are not too limited or too constrained by including every detail. You're following that, aren't you? Because it's very, very easily understood and obviously in writing. Some the greatest writers don't put all the words in that they could. As a matter of fact, you can be too descriptive, maybe. So it's the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were there when NASA was an infant and have depicted its growth through all these decades."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How have you had to adapt to the change in technology that NASA has undergone? That very—I use the word very loosely—simple drawing of those first rockets, but yet now things are a little more complex."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about how you've had to make those changes as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.789072717181355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a historic event that is depicted in a big, big canvas. I would like to do a big painting, not a mural necessarily, but just a big painting that would glorify that achievement again. Like in the Space Museum, only approached differently and better and all of those things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's a piece of history, and that's definitely what you feel when you walk into the Capitol."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. For a while Senator Swingle [phonetic]—that name probably doesn't mean anything to you, but he was an older man who had been a politician and who was a marvelous guy in charge of the history of the Capitol. He met with me and we walked around to find a place where I could paint this. So there was a time when I was encouraged to think that this could happen. I kept trying to make it happen, but it never did. So you talk about the disappointments, not a great one, but one.\\n\\n I have never been devastated by disappointments of the sort that I think you're asking about, because there's always something else that takes its place that I can put my effort into and my dreams into. I wanted this to be one of the biggest murals in the country. We were at one time very serious, the top people in Scottsdale were talking about the Scottsdale Space Science Center. That is my idea of what that entity might be, that center painting. That's a very special locale in Scottsdale [Arizona]. That did not come to pass. But on a much smaller scale, and less tremendous in so many ways, but still very satisfying, it's going to happen now in the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n Learning Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you give us a tour of it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can we walk through?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.161671570159047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nice question. I think they tend to balance out and focus on a piece of canvas. I try to bring all of those excitements to bear in the paintings that I do, because it seems to me the most productive way of communicating for me. It's the way that I can best—or a combination of words and pictures."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kind of reminds us of our own technology as you watch NASA grow up from the Mercury to the International Space Station, all that knowledge that you've been able to absorb helps develop what you're developing for the future as well and when we look through those. So it's quite a combination of brain space up there that you're able to mesh through."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's interesting how different we all are, isn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how we see things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz told us was that you were able to evoke the emotions of the people who had worked in the space program and possibly because you were able to get to know them so well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 33.51296841128783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's interesting how different we all are, isn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how we see things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz told us was that you were able to evoke the emotions of the people who had worked in the space program and possibly because you were able to get to know them so well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. See, I admired them so enormously, and it comes across. It has to. I don't even care what kind of people they are, but they're engaged in an enterprise that is so worthy and so important and so historic, that I can't help but admire and respect and even relish what they're doing. And they're all, all the guys that were engaged in that marvelous enterprise, which continues, of course—I don't want to talk like it's in the past, because that's what's happening right now. It's just, it's what delights me.\\n\\n You were going to say something?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm going to take advantage of where your location is. You had pointed earlier to the patch that had gone to the Moon with Gene Cernan. Could you explain a little more about what you have hanging here and how that patch came alive?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.241220700245268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was so absorbed with the moment that I was not thinking of anything else but. But I've considered all of that at other times, how the progress is just moving forward all the time.\\n\\n This is a recent painting that I did for Honeywell [Corporation] that is complete fantasy, in the sense that this is Camelback Mountain, which we see right out from our veranda. They have a big plant out here, their space development plant. So this is within our reach. This suggests orbital activity sometime in the distant future when so many things will be occurring. Look, we've got even stuff like that, little planes taking off and then I've brought the Moon up pretty close. That's all just kind of a fantasy thing that I did for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This must be one of your latest works of Captain Young."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. This is a slide. Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the recipient part. I recognized this from the Johnson Space Center mural."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. This is a print that I made on my computer and I put this lettering in. I made another one that I had framed in a similar fashion that shows John with his mission emblem, which is this one which I designed. I made both and had them both framed. Then my wife and I evaluated them, and I said, \"Now, which is the best one to present to John at this forthcoming event?\" We both agreed that the other one was a little better. So I just have this now.\\n\\n But this is Judy [Resnik] and I had her name there. I designed this emblem for her particular class. It still remains. But I did all of this on my own, in his likeness. No one had seen—the sketch that I had presented and had been okayed was just an anonymous astronaut, but I thought, gosh, John is going to fly this mission. I know him. He's getting ready for it. He's worthy if ever there was a guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's done so much, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.95212432129045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. This is a print that I made on my computer and I put this lettering in. I made another one that I had framed in a similar fashion that shows John with his mission emblem, which is this one which I designed. I made both and had them both framed. Then my wife and I evaluated them, and I said, \"Now, which is the best one to present to John at this forthcoming event?\" We both agreed that the other one was a little better. So I just have this now.\\n\\n But this is Judy [Resnik] and I had her name there. I designed this emblem for her particular class. It still remains. But I did all of this on my own, in his likeness. No one had seen—the sketch that I had presented and had been okayed was just an anonymous astronaut, but I thought, gosh, John is going to fly this mission. I know him. He's getting ready for it. He's worthy if ever there was a guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's done so much, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The most experienced space commander in the world. How about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I made it John. Got pictures of him. This is Grissom. Gus' wife visited me when I was painting this, and also [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] wife, when I was painting the mural. One day I saw these women down there and they introduced themselves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your family's very well extended, isn't it, because not only do you know just the everyday participants of the space program, you've gotten to know their families as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.946804801433835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The most experienced space commander in the world. How about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I made it John. Got pictures of him. This is Grissom. Gus' wife visited me when I was painting this, and also [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] wife, when I was painting the mural. One day I saw these women down there and they introduced themselves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your family's very well extended, isn't it, because not only do you know just the everyday participants of the space program, you've gotten to know their families as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Some of them I have, yes. Yes, I feel very privileged that way.\\n\\n What else can I—of course, I've got plenty of stuff I could pull out if there ever was a need. I want to show you, though, a copy of that other book just so you know. There's my first book, the one with Isaac Asimov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What an accomplishment, just doing a book, but then yet getting to do it with him."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 21.052005334926484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I made it John. Got pictures of him. This is Grissom. Gus' wife visited me when I was painting this, and also [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] wife, when I was painting the mural. One day I saw these women down there and they introduced themselves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your family's very well extended, isn't it, because not only do you know just the everyday participants of the space program, you've gotten to know their families as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Some of them I have, yes. Yes, I feel very privileged that way.\\n\\n What else can I—of course, I've got plenty of stuff I could pull out if there ever was a need. I want to show you, though, a copy of that other book just so you know. There's my first book, the one with Isaac Asimov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What an accomplishment, just doing a book, but then yet getting to do it with him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Let's see, here, this is the Japanese version of\\n\\n Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\\n\\n , by Ben Bova. This is quite a—now, of course, this is all Japanese. The American version is the same size and everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Easier to read. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.83556148325165, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Some of them I have, yes. Yes, I feel very privileged that way.\\n\\n What else can I—of course, I've got plenty of stuff I could pull out if there ever was a need. I want to show you, though, a copy of that other book just so you know. There's my first book, the one with Isaac Asimov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What an accomplishment, just doing a book, but then yet getting to do it with him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Let's see, here, this is the Japanese version of\\n\\n Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\\n\\n , by Ben Bova. This is quite a—now, of course, this is all Japanese. The American version is the same size and everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Easier to read. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot easier to read. I wanted to show you the sketches that—oh, wait a minute. I was talking to Nancy Conrad this morning. Pete [Charles P.] Conrad [Jr.], who was just killed, as you know, this is a painting that I'm shipping to her. This is Pete and this is Dr. [Joseph P.] Kerwin. They went out to loosen this solar panel that had been jammed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll show that to the camera if we can. Will you explain that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.817290536946274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Let's see, here, this is the Japanese version of\\n\\n Vision of The Future: The Art of Robert McCall\\n\\n , by Ben Bova. This is quite a—now, of course, this is all Japanese. The American version is the same size and everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Easier to read. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot easier to read. I wanted to show you the sketches that—oh, wait a minute. I was talking to Nancy Conrad this morning. Pete [Charles P.] Conrad [Jr.], who was just killed, as you know, this is a painting that I'm shipping to her. This is Pete and this is Dr. [Joseph P.] Kerwin. They went out to loosen this solar panel that had been jammed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll show that to the camera if we can. Will you explain that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Watch your step there. I'm sure they will gladly add that to their collection of things for them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.463656152162525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot easier to read. I wanted to show you the sketches that—oh, wait a minute. I was talking to Nancy Conrad this morning. Pete [Charles P.] Conrad [Jr.], who was just killed, as you know, this is a painting that I'm shipping to her. This is Pete and this is Dr. [Joseph P.] Kerwin. They went out to loosen this solar panel that had been jammed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll show that to the camera if we can. Will you explain that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Watch your step there. I'm sure they will gladly add that to their collection of things for them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes. I sold this to Pete many years ago, the painting, but I had an exhibition in progress.\\n\\n This is a painting that I did. Actually, it was for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n magazine. But I made it large and it's a good piece of work. I sold it to Pete, Pete Conrad, many years ago. But then I had it in an exhibition, so he couldn't pick it up right away, and then he never did. He had paid me a small portion of the cost of it. It wasn't until I met Nancy recently, within the last year, that I said, \"Listen, he paid me some money, and I'm going to give it back to you. I don't really want to sell the painting,\" but then she wanted it very badly. So based on our original agreement, I decided, well, she should have it. So now I'll be sending it to her. Just returned with these other paintings. So that's the story of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many visitors go to the Smithsonian and see your mural and, of course, people can find your art books, but do you have a favorite painting that if you could pick that you would want people to see in person, do you have one in specific?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.29295128018058, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Watch your step there. I'm sure they will gladly add that to their collection of things for them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes. I sold this to Pete many years ago, the painting, but I had an exhibition in progress.\\n\\n This is a painting that I did. Actually, it was for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n magazine. But I made it large and it's a good piece of work. I sold it to Pete, Pete Conrad, many years ago. But then I had it in an exhibition, so he couldn't pick it up right away, and then he never did. He had paid me a small portion of the cost of it. It wasn't until I met Nancy recently, within the last year, that I said, \"Listen, he paid me some money, and I'm going to give it back to you. I don't really want to sell the painting,\" but then she wanted it very badly. So based on our original agreement, I decided, well, she should have it. So now I'll be sending it to her. Just returned with these other paintings. So that's the story of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many visitors go to the Smithsonian and see your mural and, of course, people can find your art books, but do you have a favorite painting that if you could pick that you would want people to see in person, do you have one in specific?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's the mural."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mural itself?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.325501422422867, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes. I sold this to Pete many years ago, the painting, but I had an exhibition in progress.\\n\\n This is a painting that I did. Actually, it was for\\n\\n Popular Science\\n\\n magazine. But I made it large and it's a good piece of work. I sold it to Pete, Pete Conrad, many years ago. But then I had it in an exhibition, so he couldn't pick it up right away, and then he never did. He had paid me a small portion of the cost of it. It wasn't until I met Nancy recently, within the last year, that I said, \"Listen, he paid me some money, and I'm going to give it back to you. I don't really want to sell the painting,\" but then she wanted it very badly. So based on our original agreement, I decided, well, she should have it. So now I'll be sending it to her. Just returned with these other paintings. So that's the story of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many visitors go to the Smithsonian and see your mural and, of course, people can find your art books, but do you have a favorite painting that if you could pick that you would want people to see in person, do you have one in specific?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's the mural."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mural itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Washington [DC]. It's the biggest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly says so much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.38950792891712, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Washington [DC]. It's the biggest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly says so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is a significant drawing that I made at the Johnson Space Center. Pete Conrad had returned. Let's see. What happened? They were determining how to handle the—Skylab had been launched and jammed, and they were trying to work out a way of protecting it from the sun. That's why they had spread that parasol kind of thing. I've forgotten some of the details of that particular sketch. But these are sketches that were made in real time from the Johnson Space Center.\\n\\n This is from launch control at Kennedy, in that big building that overlooks the launch site. This is from the Johnson Space Center live at mission control. I'm looking at the big screen that shows the—I forget which astronaut this is, who actually dropped a feather and a little hammer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dave Scott."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They hit the ground at the same time, you know. These are other sketches that were made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was another piece of information that Mr. Kranz actually told us, is that he had to be careful, because when you were in the room, he tended to want to watch you instead of do his job. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.76611992101902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is a significant drawing that I made at the Johnson Space Center. Pete Conrad had returned. Let's see. What happened? They were determining how to handle the—Skylab had been launched and jammed, and they were trying to work out a way of protecting it from the sun. That's why they had spread that parasol kind of thing. I've forgotten some of the details of that particular sketch. But these are sketches that were made in real time from the Johnson Space Center.\\n\\n This is from launch control at Kennedy, in that big building that overlooks the launch site. This is from the Johnson Space Center live at mission control. I'm looking at the big screen that shows the—I forget which astronaut this is, who actually dropped a feather and a little hammer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dave Scott."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They hit the ground at the same time, you know. These are other sketches that were made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was another piece of information that Mr. Kranz actually told us, is that he had to be careful, because when you were in the room, he tended to want to watch you instead of do his job. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, really. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But don't tell him I told you he said that. They said he was fascinated you being able to take what was happening so quickly and putting it down on paper. So I know that he enjoyed very much working on the Mission Operations Directorate patch with you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.406799912243354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They hit the ground at the same time, you know. These are other sketches that were made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was another piece of information that Mr. Kranz actually told us, is that he had to be careful, because when you were in the room, he tended to want to watch you instead of do his job. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, really. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But don't tell him I told you he said that. They said he was fascinated you being able to take what was happening so quickly and putting it down on paper. So I know that he enjoyed very much working on the Mission Operations Directorate patch with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He was very, very instrumental in that. He was the one that asked me to do it, but also the one who really did most of the design. I just brought it together and in a way that could be reproduced nicely. Great fun recalling all of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where do you think your work's going to take you next now?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.340888791381506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, really. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But don't tell him I told you he said that. They said he was fascinated you being able to take what was happening so quickly and putting it down on paper. So I know that he enjoyed very much working on the Mission Operations Directorate patch with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. He was very, very instrumental in that. He was the one that asked me to do it, but also the one who really did most of the design. I just brought it together and in a way that could be reproduced nicely. Great fun recalling all of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where do you think your work's going to take you next now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the next interesting project for me is, of course, this mural, which is going to be—I'm not going to be painting this, see, this will be enlarged digitally and printed on canvas. I've seen samples. I know what it will be, and it will be very effective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So will this be the first time that your work's been produced like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.11220838442161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the next interesting project for me is, of course, this mural, which is going to be—I'm not going to be painting this, see, this will be enlarged digitally and printed on canvas. I've seen samples. I know what it will be, and it will be very effective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So will this be the first time that your work's been produced like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then it will be mounted on the wall, so my project really is to just to supervise the event. It'll be done in California, and then it'll be brought here and mounted in the new Challenger Learning Center. So that's that, and this painting here, and the hope for the new things that are happening. I've got another book that I'm working to have published. I still don't have a publisher for it, but I'm optimistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's definitely a message that you give in all of the works that you do."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.01356487157957, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then it will be mounted on the wall, so my project really is to just to supervise the event. It'll be done in California, and then it'll be brought here and mounted in the new Challenger Learning Center. So that's that, and this painting here, and the hope for the new things that are happening. I've got another book that I'm working to have published. I still don't have a publisher for it, but I'm optimistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's definitely a message that you give in all of the works that you do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see. There must be something else that I can talk about. I mean, clearly there are so many incidents that I could go on and on, but I have to be kind of reminded of them. Well, we've got lots of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're doing fine. I was going to see, if you want, we could take a break for just a minute."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 43.348405412866185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then it will be mounted on the wall, so my project really is to just to supervise the event. It'll be done in California, and then it'll be brought here and mounted in the new Challenger Learning Center. So that's that, and this painting here, and the hope for the new things that are happening. I've got another book that I'm working to have published. I still don't have a publisher for it, but I'm optimistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's definitely a message that you give in all of the works that you do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see. There must be something else that I can talk about. I mean, clearly there are so many incidents that I could go on and on, but I have to be kind of reminded of them. Well, we've got lots of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're doing fine. I was going to see, if you want, we could take a break for just a minute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can ask Sandra and Carol if they have some things to ask you as well, and give you a chance to collect your thoughts and see what else you would like to add."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 16, "return_to_go": 48.16489490318465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see. There must be something else that I can talk about. I mean, clearly there are so many incidents that I could go on and on, but I have to be kind of reminded of them. Well, we've got lots of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're doing fine. I was going to see, if you want, we could take a break for just a minute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can ask Sandra and Carol if they have some things to ask you as well, and give you a chance to collect your thoughts and see what else you would like to add."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to do that for just a minute?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The thing that's exciting is that our NASA program is suffering from low budget and that kind of thing, but these things fluctuate and change. Right now it's not getting the kind of support that it needs. But, nonetheless, it's doing things that are remarkable and significant. The coming years, there is every reason to hope that conditions will alter in ways that will enhance the budget, that maybe there will be a breakthrough of some kind. Maybe there will be a space program that somehow lights the fires of imagination and excitement of the American people that would support more funding. These things will happen. It will fluctuate.\\n\\n So my wish for NASA is that we can continue to expand our energies. These things are inevitable, I think. Great new discoveries will be made regularly, and more and more people will be engaged in the space adventure, and it will continue to grow and expand and become more and more a part of all our lives, as we see our loved ones, children, wives, husbands, moving out into space, for one reason or another, working, exploring. It's all going to happen. I'm very optimistic about all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you believe that space artists, like yourself, could have an impact on the future of NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a message that you can tell the public through your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I hope that I can do that, and I hope that I am, I hope. I hope. I want to. I think I have to some degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a message that you can tell the public through your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I hope that I can do that, and I hope that I am, I hope. I hope. I want to. I think I have to some degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think others have to tell me. I can't—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think you have, and I think from the time that you looked in that telescope that you saw great things, and those great things are now for us to see on your canvases. So we appreciate that and we certainly appreciate the time that you've given to us today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think others have to tell me. I can't—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think you have, and I think from the time that you looked in that telescope that you saw great things, and those great things are now for us to see on your canvases. So we appreciate that and we certainly appreciate the time that you've given to us today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've loved this opportunity, Rebecca. It's been a privilege, and I just hope that I've said some things here of value, and that maybe there will be another opportunity somewhere along the line to add to what I've said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what you're doing is important and good. I congratulate George Abbey for having initiated it. I think that's correct, isn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is correct. It's his vision."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've loved this opportunity, Rebecca. It's been a privilege, and I just hope that I've said some things here of value, and that maybe there will be another opportunity somewhere along the line to add to what I've said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what you're doing is important and good. I congratulate George Abbey for having initiated it. I think that's correct, isn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is correct. It's his vision."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be able to bring this history alive and that people can share their experiences and their thoughts, so that others in future generations can have that view."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00397:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what you're doing is important and good. I congratulate George Abbey for having initiated it. I think that's correct, isn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is correct. It's his vision."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be able to bring this history alive and that people can share their experiences and their thoughts, so that others in future generations can have that view."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we thank you for participating."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00059:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 40.01905537236602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your crew members. How was it as a crew? Did you bond pretty well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, you spend so much time working together, and that's part of the process of crew selections. You don't put oil and water together. When I ran the office, I was responsible for crew assignments for the years I did that, and you specifically look at—and generally everybody in the office gets along quite well. I mean, when you get 100 people, you're always going to have a few people that don't have the same personalities or personalities don't match or something. You don't try and cause problems, so you look for people that are compatible. Once again, I can't speak for assignments that were made on me before I was doing them, but it was pretty obvious by even looking at it. I mean, you look for a mix. You look for people that have specialties that mesh with the mission requirements and all those sorts of things.\\n\\n Yes, it was a good crew. Dick Truly had been around a long time and was a good commander and taught us a lot. Everybody had their strengths and their area of expertise, and you focused on those and shared your experience and your wisdom with the other folks, and we got the job done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Moving on to your next mission, it was 51-G."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About when were you assigned for that one, do you remember? Or about how long before?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00059:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 31.870235520273017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. If that had been an autonomous—just programmed with no capability of human interaction, we'd have never got it back. It's as simple as that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was your first flight as commander."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in the selection not of the payload specialists, but of the mission specialists for the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00059:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.30026168919224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in the selection not of the payload specialists, but of the mission specialists for the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Commanders never were. The whole crew was assigned by—at that point in time it was Mr. Abbey, and John [W.] Young was head of the [astronaut] office. But I think everybody pretty much believed that George was the ultimate assigner of crews, so he assigned the crews and it went from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was quite unique. You mentioned that you had the Prince on board and then a French payload specialist as well. So you had quite an international flavor to the mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00059:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 38.111401876880265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Commanders never were. The whole crew was assigned by—at that point in time it was Mr. Abbey, and John [W.] Young was head of the [astronaut] office. But I think everybody pretty much believed that George was the ultimate assigner of crews, so he assigned the crews and it went from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was quite unique. You mentioned that you had the Prince on board and then a French payload specialist as well. So you had quite an international flavor to the mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that make things different from your first mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00278:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 89.40350887667236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only one person could put the helmet on. The other people would sit around and look at the computer screens. Of course the person who was driving the arm had the controls so that the arm was properly simulated. Nowadays, everybody can participate. Also now you can get in the virtual reality DOME [Device for Orientation and Motion Environments] and fly the SAFER [Simplified Aid For EVA Rescue] unit around. There’s all sorts of things we do in virtual reality now that we didn’t do back then, but you had to start somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought it was an interesting concept. Dick [Richard O.] Covey had told us that you and Story [Musgrave] were called the odd couple. Can you tell us about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Odd because we were different or odd because of Story? Story was a unique person. Did they call us that to our faces? I’m trying to remember back then. I’m not surprised, I’m not surprised. We had our own way of going about things, and Story definitely was one of a kind. I also had my own way of doing things. I’ll have to ask Covey about that the next time I see him. I could make up a reason, but I can’t honestly remember whether it’s because Story and I were so different, or just whatever. I appreciate your letting me know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just thought there might be an interesting story there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There might be. I’ll have to go and look at Covey’s history, see what he has to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, look at his transcript."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00278:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 99.33723208519152, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Odd because we were different or odd because of Story? Story was a unique person. Did they call us that to our faces? I’m trying to remember back then. I’m not surprised, I’m not surprised. We had our own way of going about things, and Story definitely was one of a kind. I also had my own way of doing things. I’ll have to ask Covey about that the next time I see him. I could make up a reason, but I can’t honestly remember whether it’s because Story and I were so different, or just whatever. I appreciate your letting me know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just thought there might be an interesting story there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There might be. I’ll have to go and look at Covey’s history, see what he has to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, look at his transcript."}, {"role": "user", "content": ". Or I’ll ask Story the next time I see him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had also mentioned that at some point you guys had signed some insulation that you ended up installing into the telescope."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00278:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 111.91012358663544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. There was a little concern—we had talked about should we write our names or anything inside the telescope somewhere, and we decided no that would not be good, because maybe it could cause some organic contamination. We figured that since these were going on the outside it would be okay. So yes, we took a magic marker and signed the inside of them so it wouldn’t be visible to anybody else, but we knew it was there. That was nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s cool. So they were brought back by the subsequent crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they’re still there on Hubble. Those magnetometers, the original set, were never meant to be removed. As I said, we installed the new magnetometers on top of the old ones. They clipped onto the old magnetometers. I think the new ones that we put in are still functioning. I don’t know what the problem was with the old ones. They failed pretty soon, the first couple of years, but the new ones are still working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought that was an interesting story. Your crew actually won a pretty significant award after you came back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Freedom [Forum Spirit] Award, which was $100,000, which we were not allowed to accept, being government employees. We jokingly asked if we resigned from the government could we accept the award, but they said no. It was nice, we had a big black-tie affair. What we did was to donate the award to the NASA scholarship foundation so that it could do some good for some people. We got a lot of awards for Hubble. Monetarily that was the biggest one, but we got awards from Aviation Week [& Space Technology] and from the AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics]. We all realized of course that it was an award to the whole Hubble team, but as astronauts you’re at the top of the pyramid and so we got a lot of the public recognition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was NASA thrilled with the success of the mission? I know last time we had talked about you meeting with [NASA Administrator Daniel S.] Goldin and he said, “You’ve got to succeed.”"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.61894516437521, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, mm hmm. And so we got married in December. And I forget when we actually went to our, our Peace Corps training. It was in Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before that, what was your reaction of your friends and family when they found out you were accepted in the Peace Corps and going to Iran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they thought we were a little nuts. A little adventurous, but also they were glad that Bruce, my then husband, was not going to go to Vietnam. My mother probably was really, she was kind of very tied into me. And she was probably a little bit nonplused that I was going half the way around the world. I used to tell people that I had to go halfway around the world to cut her apron strings. It's kind of a family joke."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where did you go for training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to Brattleboro, Vermont, and I was really excited about the training. For the first time, you know, I learned about things like T groups or even I don't even know what a T group is now. But I remember it was kind of a quasi, you know, therapy or feedback group and we were discussing things and dealing with conflict, and that was very exciting to me. And we had a person in our training whose name was Terry O'Donnell, and he was a hardcore ex-pat and he was an author. And he wrote, um, he had been writing about Iran and living in Iran for 20 years. And he was kind of a, you know, hard boiled kind of guy. And he was one of the key people that would tell us about what life as an expat was going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he an American expatriate?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.232960165180927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three months, I think. And some of the, the people who became most influential after I got to Iran were some of the staff who trained, trained us. At that point, they were not having in-country training. We did all our training at Brattleboro, Vermont, and then we flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the typical day of training like in Vermont?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, well, I can't remember. And the reason I can't remember, Ernie, is because, um, I subsequently worked on two other trainings for the Peace Corps, and they sort of got more involved on my own, being staff and training than I had. I just remember it being really hard and they taught us to speak, but not to read and write. In those days they did not, uh, we were illiterate. We could speak fairly well, but we, they weren't attempting to teach us. Now, I believe they do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's, your mention, how many hours a day was language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I remember it was a lot. I remember, I think they said we had 300 hours of training at the time it was over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any physical like some, some training groups got into the whole physical thing with ropes and all that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.258844627978808, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, well, I can't remember. And the reason I can't remember, Ernie, is because, um, I subsequently worked on two other trainings for the Peace Corps, and they sort of got more involved on my own, being staff and training than I had. I just remember it being really hard and they taught us to speak, but not to read and write. In those days they did not, uh, we were illiterate. We could speak fairly well, but we, they weren't attempting to teach us. Now, I believe they do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's, your mention, how many hours a day was language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I remember it was a lot. I remember, I think they said we had 300 hours of training at the time it was over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any physical like some, some training groups got into the whole physical thing with ropes and all that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. We didn't do, our training was not physical. It was like classroom and emotional. That was what I remember. Classroom and emotional. And the Iranian men who were teachers. I think we even had two women maybe who were teachers, were very, uh. They were very kind and they made you want to get to know other Iranians. So they were a very good introduction to Iranians' temperament."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And about how large was your group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.398716253309788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I remember it was a lot. I remember, I think they said we had 300 hours of training at the time it was over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any physical like some, some training groups got into the whole physical thing with ropes and all that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. We didn't do, our training was not physical. It was like classroom and emotional. That was what I remember. Classroom and emotional. And the Iranian men who were teachers. I think we even had two women maybe who were teachers, were very, uh. They were very kind and they made you want to get to know other Iranians. So they were a very good introduction to Iranians' temperament."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And about how large was your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, maybe 20 couples. Half of them left maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was all couples."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.665240281455318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. We didn't do, our training was not physical. It was like classroom and emotional. That was what I remember. Classroom and emotional. And the Iranian men who were teachers. I think we even had two women maybe who were teachers, were very, uh. They were very kind and they made you want to get to know other Iranians. So they were a very good introduction to Iranians' temperament."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And about how large was your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, maybe 20 couples. Half of them left maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was all couples."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I believe it was all couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no single men. No single women, you explained earlier. But no single men either?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.07248920161702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, maybe 20 couples. Half of them left maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was all couples."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I believe it was all couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no single men. No single women, you explained earlier. But no single men either?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. No, it was all couples. And that's what later I became very interested in the cross-cultural aspects of it. I mean, as I mentioned, I was a sociology major, so this really, I felt tied in to what I was interested in. I just began to see the whole world is just little subcultures and that continued on. You know, my job now, dyslexics are really a subculture and the way they learn is really just like a little pocket of how people are. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's fascinating is I've never heard of any other program that was all couples. Now, did that spread to other Peace Corps programs in Iran or just do you think it was that your, were you unique, do you think your group in that way or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.6360991129078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I believe it was all couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no single men. No single women, you explained earlier. But no single men either?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. No, it was all couples. And that's what later I became very interested in the cross-cultural aspects of it. I mean, as I mentioned, I was a sociology major, so this really, I felt tied in to what I was interested in. I just began to see the whole world is just little subcultures and that continued on. You know, my job now, dyslexics are really a subculture and the way they learn is really just like a little pocket of how people are. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's fascinating is I've never heard of any other program that was all couples. Now, did that spread to other Peace Corps programs in Iran or just do you think it was that your, were you unique, do you think your group in that way or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about other Iranian volunteers, were they? Peace Corps volunteers. I'm sure you must have met others over there. Were they mainly couples?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.262332347675333, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. No, it was all couples. And that's what later I became very interested in the cross-cultural aspects of it. I mean, as I mentioned, I was a sociology major, so this really, I felt tied in to what I was interested in. I just began to see the whole world is just little subcultures and that continued on. You know, my job now, dyslexics are really a subculture and the way they learn is really just like a little pocket of how people are. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's fascinating is I've never heard of any other program that was all couples. Now, did that spread to other Peace Corps programs in Iran or just do you think it was that your, were you unique, do you think your group in that way or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about other Iranian volunteers, were they? Peace Corps volunteers. I'm sure you must have met others over there. Were they mainly couples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were mainly couples. Definitely couples. I think there was one. I mean, I think there was a redheaded man named Kerry. Maybe he didn't have a wife but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else? Any insights, again, into why that would be for Iran?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.624813719639256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about other Iranian volunteers, were they? Peace Corps volunteers. I'm sure you must have met others over there. Were they mainly couples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were mainly couples. Definitely couples. I think there was one. I mean, I think there was a redheaded man named Kerry. Maybe he didn't have a wife but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else? Any insights, again, into why that would be for Iran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't really know why that, why that was. I just, I mean, I remember some. I remember the Mantauco story and Nick, for instance, they were Italian and they had gotten their wedding pictures stolen from their car when they got married. You know, we were all kind of young and we all had wedding stories to tell. It was sort of like The Newlywed Game. And none of us were, you know, experienced at being married or experienced at life really. It was a lot of fresh college graduates who were mostly, you know, couples out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your guess is there were about 20 couples in training, something like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.138681910710284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were mainly couples. Definitely couples. I think there was one. I mean, I think there was a redheaded man named Kerry. Maybe he didn't have a wife but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else? Any insights, again, into why that would be for Iran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't really know why that, why that was. I just, I mean, I remember some. I remember the Mantauco story and Nick, for instance, they were Italian and they had gotten their wedding pictures stolen from their car when they got married. You know, we were all kind of young and we all had wedding stories to tell. It was sort of like The Newlywed Game. And none of us were, you know, experienced at being married or experienced at life really. It was a lot of fresh college graduates who were mostly, you know, couples out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your guess is there were about 20 couples in training, something like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were any deselected out in training that you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.70964656745587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't really know why that, why that was. I just, I mean, I remember some. I remember the Mantauco story and Nick, for instance, they were Italian and they had gotten their wedding pictures stolen from their car when they got married. You know, we were all kind of young and we all had wedding stories to tell. It was sort of like The Newlywed Game. And none of us were, you know, experienced at being married or experienced at life really. It was a lot of fresh college graduates who were mostly, you know, couples out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your guess is there were about 20 couples in training, something like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were any deselected out in training that you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I know. But by the time we'd been there a year, half are gone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any sense of why that might be?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.03104842924106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And about how far away was it would you guess? How many hours would it take you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lifetime. It took, I don't know. I think we were on the bus maybe 5 hours and maybe we had to change. And then we got to Azerbaijan. And then we were just, like, exhausted, just to like to be in the room. And then you were scared to go out and then you went out and then could you find your way back and everything? It was really like basic survival. And it was, I, yeah, I hadn't thought about that in a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your task was maybe given a certain amount of money, get to Azerbaijan. Let's spend the night maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Spend the night and or two days even maybe, and then come back. Right. And so we were very proud that we made it back a lot. I mean, we weren't in any danger, but we felt everything was fine and we were trying out our Farsi for the first time, you know, without any instructors around. And not to try to. We were very, we'd been very, uh. It had been drilled into us that we shouldn't offend people, you know, so we're trying to do everything right and not be offensive and. That was pretty intense. I remember just like sweating bullets, just like, I just tried to do it all right. And wondering if it was right or could we order food or you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, now, this was the bus stop that was the trip was so hot and with ice cream?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.923387143601179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lifetime. It took, I don't know. I think we were on the bus maybe 5 hours and maybe we had to change. And then we got to Azerbaijan. And then we were just, like, exhausted, just to like to be in the room. And then you were scared to go out and then you went out and then could you find your way back and everything? It was really like basic survival. And it was, I, yeah, I hadn't thought about that in a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your task was maybe given a certain amount of money, get to Azerbaijan. Let's spend the night maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Spend the night and or two days even maybe, and then come back. Right. And so we were very proud that we made it back a lot. I mean, we weren't in any danger, but we felt everything was fine and we were trying out our Farsi for the first time, you know, without any instructors around. And not to try to. We were very, we'd been very, uh. It had been drilled into us that we shouldn't offend people, you know, so we're trying to do everything right and not be offensive and. That was pretty intense. I remember just like sweating bullets, just like, I just tried to do it all right. And wondering if it was right or could we order food or you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, now, this was the bus stop that was the trip was so hot and with ice cream?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there many people, did they have chickens and stuff on too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.914874604001309, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Spend the night and or two days even maybe, and then come back. Right. And so we were very proud that we made it back a lot. I mean, we weren't in any danger, but we felt everything was fine and we were trying out our Farsi for the first time, you know, without any instructors around. And not to try to. We were very, we'd been very, uh. It had been drilled into us that we shouldn't offend people, you know, so we're trying to do everything right and not be offensive and. That was pretty intense. I remember just like sweating bullets, just like, I just tried to do it all right. And wondering if it was right or could we order food or you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, now, this was the bus stop that was the trip was so hot and with ice cream?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there many people, did they have chickens and stuff on too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean, this bus was, was very crowded and I was very conscious of being a, you know, a Western woman, was, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the only Western woman on the bus?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.79430511555701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there many people, did they have chickens and stuff on too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean, this bus was, was very crowded and I was very conscious of being a, you know, a Western woman, was, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the only Western woman on the bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One of the things that really struck me was when I look at pictures of Iranians, I think I look just like they do. They have brown hair. I had brown hair at the time. You know, I have kind of olive skin. I have hazel eyes. I'm not like a Norwegian type. And so I thought, well, they won't even notice me. But they are a very homogeneous, or they were 30 years ago, a very homogeneous population. And so they really look alike. I mean, they know. They know that you're not one of them, whereas I wouldn't have thought they would know that. And it became really clear that I looked really different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On a bus how could you tell?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.771450128396678, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean, this bus was, was very crowded and I was very conscious of being a, you know, a Western woman, was, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you the only Western woman on the bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One of the things that really struck me was when I look at pictures of Iranians, I think I look just like they do. They have brown hair. I had brown hair at the time. You know, I have kind of olive skin. I have hazel eyes. I'm not like a Norwegian type. And so I thought, well, they won't even notice me. But they are a very homogeneous, or they were 30 years ago, a very homogeneous population. And so they really look alike. I mean, they know. They know that you're not one of them, whereas I wouldn't have thought they would know that. And it became really clear that I looked really different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On a bus how could you tell?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everybody would just stare at you. And they, in those days they would say, hello mister, hello mister, hello mister. And so, you know, later we got a cat and named him mister because that's the word we heard the most. Hello mister. And then they would say to me, they'd say hello mister. They have no idea what, you know, mister is. And you got a lot of cat calls and little children goggling and ogling. That kind of thing. But we had been moving as a group before. This was our first time moving out as a couple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And also, how was it on the bus? I mean, in some countries you hear about wild bus drivers and traffic problems."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.857166809329643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One of the things that really struck me was when I look at pictures of Iranians, I think I look just like they do. They have brown hair. I had brown hair at the time. You know, I have kind of olive skin. I have hazel eyes. I'm not like a Norwegian type. And so I thought, well, they won't even notice me. But they are a very homogeneous, or they were 30 years ago, a very homogeneous population. And so they really look alike. I mean, they know. They know that you're not one of them, whereas I wouldn't have thought they would know that. And it became really clear that I looked really different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On a bus how could you tell?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everybody would just stare at you. And they, in those days they would say, hello mister, hello mister, hello mister. And so, you know, later we got a cat and named him mister because that's the word we heard the most. Hello mister. And then they would say to me, they'd say hello mister. They have no idea what, you know, mister is. And you got a lot of cat calls and little children goggling and ogling. That kind of thing. But we had been moving as a group before. This was our first time moving out as a couple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And also, how was it on the bus? I mean, in some countries you hear about wild bus drivers and traffic problems."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, that's, yep. It was pretty, um. You just had to. The favorite thing they say there is inshallah. That means in the hands of God or God willing. So everything was inshallah. We're going to get there, inshallah. We're going to be alive, inshallah. And so, God willing, became a key thing. But it was very hot. I just remember it was hot. And you're so covered up, you know, it was just like ugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now all through training, you had to be covered up like that in public?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.952407565921824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everybody would just stare at you. And they, in those days they would say, hello mister, hello mister, hello mister. And so, you know, later we got a cat and named him mister because that's the word we heard the most. Hello mister. And then they would say to me, they'd say hello mister. They have no idea what, you know, mister is. And you got a lot of cat calls and little children goggling and ogling. That kind of thing. But we had been moving as a group before. This was our first time moving out as a couple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And also, how was it on the bus? I mean, in some countries you hear about wild bus drivers and traffic problems."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, that's, yep. It was pretty, um. You just had to. The favorite thing they say there is inshallah. That means in the hands of God or God willing. So everything was inshallah. We're going to get there, inshallah. We're going to be alive, inshallah. And so, God willing, became a key thing. But it was very hot. I just remember it was hot. And you're so covered up, you know, it was just like ugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now all through training, you had to be covered up like that in public?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the country when there were, yeah. Not in class, not if we were having language class, because the Iranians who were our teachers were very Americanized."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you went out in town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.058230628802027, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, that's, yep. It was pretty, um. You just had to. The favorite thing they say there is inshallah. That means in the hands of God or God willing. So everything was inshallah. We're going to get there, inshallah. We're going to be alive, inshallah. And so, God willing, became a key thing. But it was very hot. I just remember it was hot. And you're so covered up, you know, it was just like ugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now all through training, you had to be covered up like that in public?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the country when there were, yeah. Not in class, not if we were having language class, because the Iranians who were our teachers were very Americanized."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you went out in town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Into the street, into the bazaar or any, yeah, absolutely. You might go out and have. It's a kind of Mediterranean feel actually, you know in Iran it's you go out and you have cold yogurt, buttermilk kind of yogurt. And you might sit in a kind of vineyard type thing. I mean, it would have vines and maybe a dirt floor. So it was kind of cool against the hotness of the, of the outside baking practice. And if we ever went to anything like that, we'd be covered up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the whole two years, you basically have to cover up. How about when you were teaching your class, did you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.463965197259295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because I taught in a girls school. It was segregation of sexes in, um, in school, but not. I later lived in Saudi Arabia for two years as a teacher and one of the things the Peace Corps did for me was allow me to venture into Saudi Arabia. And I went there with kind of what I call a Peace Corps mind, which is there's good here to be found. Let's find it. And Saudi Arabia really tested that. If you want to interview me about Saudi Arabia, I could do another interview. But their segregation is total. There are female bank machines, there are male bank machines. There's an iron partition in the bus and women are in the back, the men are in the front. There's, I mean, there are women travel agents for women going on trips there. You know, there are women photographers who photograph the bride. They are, you know, they are men to photograph, to photograph the groom. It's total. There's women's hospitals. There's men's hospitals. I mean, it is total.\n\nIran was not like that at the time. The women were modest, but they were. They didn't have a special place to sit in the bus and nothing like Saudi Arabia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So women could sit in the front of the bus, for example?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, women could sit on, you were with your family, but it was not an oppression the way I experienced it in Saudi Arabia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then about how long was your training in country, would you guess?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we, I don't know, maybe had. I don't really know. Maybe several weeks. Six, four weeks maybe, two weeks, something. I remember we were three months in Vermont and then some period in Tehran."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What stands out most about the one in Tehran is the little survival tips?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.404405774732549, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, women could sit on, you were with your family, but it was not an oppression the way I experienced it in Saudi Arabia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then about how long was your training in country, would you guess?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we, I don't know, maybe had. I don't really know. Maybe several weeks. Six, four weeks maybe, two weeks, something. I remember we were three months in Vermont and then some period in Tehran."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What stands out most about the one in Tehran is the little survival tips?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That first little foray out. And that ice cream and the rose water. And the toilet. I think that was my first experience with a public toilet, which is your standard Middle East squat toilet with very, um. You know, they had, they have something called. I mean I don't know, I don't think toilet habits in countries are that essential but it was a shocker, you know. They don't use toilet paper, they use their left hand. And they had this little bidet thing, which is a little water spout for it. You know, on your derriere, and then you use your hand to wipe yourself and then you pour the water. And so that's why you never eat with your left hand. Because your left hand is contaminated. So they, you know, they get often very grossed out by Americans who would travel in their country. And, you know, pick up a hot, you know, not a hot dog, what am I saying. Pick up a, anything, a piece of watermelon with their left hand, you know, and not understanding that we don't use our left hands the way they use their left hands. So that's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were you expected to use this toilet with those long dresses you're talking about?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.449339749702832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we, I don't know, maybe had. I don't really know. Maybe several weeks. Six, four weeks maybe, two weeks, something. I remember we were three months in Vermont and then some period in Tehran."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What stands out most about the one in Tehran is the little survival tips?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That first little foray out. And that ice cream and the rose water. And the toilet. I think that was my first experience with a public toilet, which is your standard Middle East squat toilet with very, um. You know, they had, they have something called. I mean I don't know, I don't think toilet habits in countries are that essential but it was a shocker, you know. They don't use toilet paper, they use their left hand. And they had this little bidet thing, which is a little water spout for it. You know, on your derriere, and then you use your hand to wipe yourself and then you pour the water. And so that's why you never eat with your left hand. Because your left hand is contaminated. So they, you know, they get often very grossed out by Americans who would travel in their country. And, you know, pick up a hot, you know, not a hot dog, what am I saying. Pick up a, anything, a piece of watermelon with their left hand, you know, and not understanding that we don't use our left hands the way they use their left hands. So that's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were you expected to use this toilet with those long dresses you're talking about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't that make a mess or anything, was that fairly difficult?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.665851542843003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't that make a mess or anything, was that fairly difficult?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was fairly difficult to walk in because it was just like, the odor was, it was very odiferous. And, you know, and we all carry toilet paper, of course, because we, being good Americans. And so, you know, you had to make sure you had your toilet paper and your dress scooped up and those things. And you usually had diarrhea in the beginning. And, you know, I remember another time just really having to go to the bathroom really badly and being on a bus and just having to wait like hours. And I had really bad diarrhea. And you know how you get those stomach cramps and you just have to say, okay, I've just get through this somehow or another. And you did. But, you know, you really became inured to it after a while. You're just like, oh well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were able to hold in that and you had diarrhea all that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But I remember it. Um. So I think just your kind of basic survival, you know, toilet, eating, travel, that's, that's a shock from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how did the assignment go to your site, was it given to you or did you pick it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.962057269825557, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was fairly difficult to walk in because it was just like, the odor was, it was very odiferous. And, you know, and we all carry toilet paper, of course, because we, being good Americans. And so, you know, you had to make sure you had your toilet paper and your dress scooped up and those things. And you usually had diarrhea in the beginning. And, you know, I remember another time just really having to go to the bathroom really badly and being on a bus and just having to wait like hours. And I had really bad diarrhea. And you know how you get those stomach cramps and you just have to say, okay, I've just get through this somehow or another. And you did. But, you know, you really became inured to it after a while. You're just like, oh well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were able to hold in that and you had diarrhea all that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But I remember it. Um. So I think just your kind of basic survival, you know, toilet, eating, travel, that's, that's a shock from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how did the assignment go to your site, was it given to you or did you pick it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was given to us and I remember we went up on the bus. And it was very much like the first time we went, you know, it was like, okay, here we go. We're going off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just the two of you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.957841410917286, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But I remember it. Um. So I think just your kind of basic survival, you know, toilet, eating, travel, that's, that's a shock from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how did the assignment go to your site, was it given to you or did you pick it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was given to us and I remember we went up on the bus. And it was very much like the first time we went, you know, it was like, okay, here we go. We're going off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. We were in a town of about 20, I'd say 20,000 people. And it was, it was a beautiful town to be in because it was pure Persian. It was in between the two, it was in the Fars Province and Fars is what the word Farsi comes from, which is the language that they speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fars was north, east, west?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.589927667799117, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. We were in a town of about 20, I'd say 20,000 people. And it was, it was a beautiful town to be in because it was pure Persian. It was in between the two, it was in the Fars Province and Fars is what the word Farsi comes from, which is the language that they speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fars was north, east, west?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fars meaning Persian. And so it's sort of in the middle of Iran, very purely Iranian, because all around the edges you have, like Azerbaijan was near Russia and you had the Afghani border. And so all along the borders were tribal people. Excuse me, I dropped my glasses. All along the border. I don't know what that does to your taping.\n\nAll along the border were multicultural influences. But in the heart of Iran was where we were, which was Abadeh. And it was a very, the language, the accent. They were very proud of. And I speak very limited Persian now. But then I was pretty good. And I remember we got tested at the end and we got a government rating, like a government employee. And I remember we got three point something, which I think was pretty good. And the man who tested us said, well, there's a debate in language among linguists, whether language is really correct grammar and syntax or whether language is communication. And so my husband spoke better, uh, syntax. But he said, you can't communicate. And so I, I did, I, I would say the wrong verb tense, but I'd just merrily go along and I have a good ability to communicate. And I felt really good about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I'm going back to the bus trip to where you were assigned. Any reactions? Your first impression of the town you were in? Well, Persian, you said that. And what about the school you were assigned to? Now, were you both at the same school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. He would have been in the boys school. So totally different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Different part of town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.135713170122365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. He would have been in the boys school. So totally different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Different part of town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Different part of town. Not nearby. I liked our house. It was kind of modern. And I said, you know, I felt that we were. I think they called our allowance a subsistence allowance. But I felt that we got a high-class allowance. We definitely lived better than, uh, we lived like professionals. We lived like the teachers and the doctors and the people in that town. We certainly did not live like the blue-collar workers of that town. And so that meant we had a brick house. It had no heat. Abadeh has certain mountains, so it got cold and we even had snow twice in the winter. I wore a wool skirt in the winter and I thought they were long because they were like about here, because miniskirts were really in when I, and they came to the top of my knee and I realized immediately they were not considered, they were not long. So.\n\nHad to readjust my definition of what was appropriate, you know, modest clothing. And never any, despite the heat, never anything sleeveless. They, they, for them the sexiest part of the body is your underarm. So like tourists who would come through with like standard sleeveless T-shirts, it was just like going bare chested down the street. And they would get a lot of flack and, you know, European girls who are traveling, tremendous amount of unwanted attention. Totally unaware that they are really like going topless. So. There was a miscommunication. And I always felt really bad and embarrassed, and I felt that Americans pretty much lived up to their Ugly American motto."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any specific anecdote that comes to mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just that kind of sleeveless thing was really terrible. I remember once even a girl wore shorts and they were probably okay modest shorts but in Iran, you just didn't wear shorts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, back to your house. Was it a one room, two room?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.8218681112621775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just that kind of sleeveless thing was really terrible. I remember once even a girl wore shorts and they were probably okay modest shorts but in Iran, you just didn't wear shorts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, back to your house. Was it a one room, two room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it had a living room and a dining room and a bedroom. A kitchen, a bath. And a squat toilet. And also they had walled courtyards, so it had a walled courtyard and a little pool and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean like a fish pool?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, a little fish pool. And the floors were marble. Cool. And my mother came and I have a picture of her. She died in January. And what we did, a life poster of her and one of the pictures we have is her taking a bath in my kitchen, sitting in a big tub of water and taking like a sit bath in the kitchen. And because our kitchen only had a shower and she didn't want a shower. I mean, our bathroom only had a shower. So, um, it was cold in the winter because there was no heat. And so there were these little propane heaters, like a camping heater you might put in your house. The house was really nice. I remember thinking it would be nicer than the house we had at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now was there was running water?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.65662729785454, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, a little fish pool. And the floors were marble. Cool. And my mother came and I have a picture of her. She died in January. And what we did, a life poster of her and one of the pictures we have is her taking a bath in my kitchen, sitting in a big tub of water and taking like a sit bath in the kitchen. And because our kitchen only had a shower and she didn't want a shower. I mean, our bathroom only had a shower. So, um, it was cold in the winter because there was no heat. And so there were these little propane heaters, like a camping heater you might put in your house. The house was really nice. I remember thinking it would be nicer than the house we had at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now was there was running water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was running water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Electricity. There was running water and electricity. It was really like I said, I said we were like the doctors of the town. And that was, um. That was great. I mean, there was no physical hardship at all. At least I don't think it was physical hardship at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many volunteers felt they were sort of adding to the economy to have like a cleaning person. Did you have anyone like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.729585886505044, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was running water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Electricity. There was running water and electricity. It was really like I said, I said we were like the doctors of the town. And that was, um. That was great. I mean, there was no physical hardship at all. At least I don't think it was physical hardship at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many volunteers felt they were sort of adding to the economy to have like a cleaning person. Did you have anyone like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't. I didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any idea if other volunteers? [tape break] It's past the leader. Okay, go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.810650985005603, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Electricity. There was running water and electricity. It was really like I said, I said we were like the doctors of the town. And that was, um. That was great. I mean, there was no physical hardship at all. At least I don't think it was physical hardship at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many volunteers felt they were sort of adding to the economy to have like a cleaning person. Did you have anyone like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't. I didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any idea if other volunteers? [tape break] It's past the leader. Okay, go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My experience wasn't so much physical danger, but more subtle adjustments in attitude. Which were internally volcanos, volcanic. You know, they changed who I was, but not so much from being frightened or harassed. My experience of Iran was they were the most, Iranians were the most hospitable, kind people I've ever met and had ever met. Mohammed was a traveler. So it was part of their religious belief that when a stranger came to your town, you were to treat them like Mohammed. And I believe that they actually did that. People went out of their way countless times to cook for us, help us find our house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'll write that back to you. You started with how that changed you, how a momentous change inside of you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.614423588893295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And but at the same time, even though you could handle it, it had this impact on you. It's a change in some way. It sounds like more than mental that, oh, they do this and that. But made you face yourself in a certain way or a bit more. How do you parallel with physical danger sense?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think of it as dangerous, but I think of it as altering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say more about the altering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know, except I just know how I am now. And, um, Bruce calls. I'm a tutor, and I encourage people who are quite discouraged. And Bruce calls me a professional liar in jest. But I don't consider it lying. I consider seeing what the potential is and manifesting that. So the child himself or herself can kind of hold on to that idea and pull themselves through some difficult times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, then I'm wondering, it was something you said earlier. When you went to Saudi Arabia, it was difficult, but you kept sort of your Peace Corps mind of seeing the good in the situation. That sounds like what you're saying now. But now, do you think that came more from the Peace Corps or from Iran or a combination of the two?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.349359543214774, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think of it as dangerous, but I think of it as altering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say more about the altering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know, except I just know how I am now. And, um, Bruce calls. I'm a tutor, and I encourage people who are quite discouraged. And Bruce calls me a professional liar in jest. But I don't consider it lying. I consider seeing what the potential is and manifesting that. So the child himself or herself can kind of hold on to that idea and pull themselves through some difficult times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, then I'm wondering, it was something you said earlier. When you went to Saudi Arabia, it was difficult, but you kept sort of your Peace Corps mind of seeing the good in the situation. That sounds like what you're saying now. But now, do you think that came more from the Peace Corps or from Iran or a combination of the two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think Iran was very formative for me because it was the first time I'd ever left home. It was the first time I was on my own. It was the first real job I ever had. I mean, I had summer jobs, but it was the first real, real job I ever had. And it was the first place I kept house. So I really, I learned to cook there. I think I learned to think there. I think I learned to be hospitable there in a way that you know your house is open, what I have is yours, kill the fatted calf. That's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're talking about learning how to cook. What kind of stove did you have?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.474898664887634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it's a cross between a sitar and a lute. And it's, I think it's unique to Persia. Some of our friends played that really well. Backgammon. You'd play backgammon forever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you mentioned a samovar. What's that used for? How does that fit in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The samovar? Um, I was. I had one out there in the hall. You make the tea in that. I could bring it over, but it's, it's a round. It has, you put the water in the round part and then it has a cone in the middle. You put charcoal in and then it has a little smokestack that you put off and on to stoke the coals. And then you turn the spout and the water comes out and have these little. They drink tea in glass teacups with sugar cubes. And you suck the tea through the sugar. You hold the sugar cube in your mouth and then you suck the tea through the sugar cube."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned unexpectedly you might play backgammon, for example. Would the women play, too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the women would play with the women usually, and the men would play with the men. Usually the women are taking care of the kids. They, they would. One thing that shocked my mother I remember is they breastfeed their children till they're around six. And so you have these really like large children wanting to be breastfed. And my mother is just like, I can't believe this. So, but that's just kind of normal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about other things in leisure time? Picnics. What other things would you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.194331849875148, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The samovar? Um, I was. I had one out there in the hall. You make the tea in that. I could bring it over, but it's, it's a round. It has, you put the water in the round part and then it has a cone in the middle. You put charcoal in and then it has a little smokestack that you put off and on to stoke the coals. And then you turn the spout and the water comes out and have these little. They drink tea in glass teacups with sugar cubes. And you suck the tea through the sugar. You hold the sugar cube in your mouth and then you suck the tea through the sugar cube."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned unexpectedly you might play backgammon, for example. Would the women play, too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the women would play with the women usually, and the men would play with the men. Usually the women are taking care of the kids. They, they would. One thing that shocked my mother I remember is they breastfeed their children till they're around six. And so you have these really like large children wanting to be breastfed. And my mother is just like, I can't believe this. So, but that's just kind of normal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about other things in leisure time? Picnics. What other things would you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Picnics were about it for leisure. There was no movie theater. There was no TV. There was, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you go to somebody else's house and sit and visit?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.771479833194606, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the women would play with the women usually, and the men would play with the men. Usually the women are taking care of the kids. They, they would. One thing that shocked my mother I remember is they breastfeed their children till they're around six. And so you have these really like large children wanting to be breastfed. And my mother is just like, I can't believe this. So, but that's just kind of normal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about other things in leisure time? Picnics. What other things would you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Picnics were about it for leisure. There was no movie theater. There was no TV. There was, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you go to somebody else's house and sit and visit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we would. Visiting. Visiting. And dinners together, cooking, visiting, and picnics. Pretty much. And then Bruce and I would travel on the weekends. We would, because we were in between these two wonderful towns. They were about 3 hours away each. And so we could take the bus and explore Isfahan and explore Shiraz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any exploring stories that happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 14.190533147994007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Picnics were about it for leisure. There was no movie theater. There was no TV. There was, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you go to somebody else's house and sit and visit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we would. Visiting. Visiting. And dinners together, cooking, visiting, and picnics. Pretty much. And then Bruce and I would travel on the weekends. We would, because we were in between these two wonderful towns. They were about 3 hours away each. And so we could take the bus and explore Isfahan and explore Shiraz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any exploring stories that happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Not, you know, too much in that. And, you know, it's interesting. We felt so at home there that I think now that I'm thinking about it, my adventures sort of go around and like we traveled for six months after and I sort of all through the east and we went to Burma and all these things and we went the Peace Corps route from one Peace Corps volunteer to the next. And I have many stories to tell you about, you know, like what I would call travel adventures. But when I think about Abadeh, it's like if you ask me what adventures I was having here in Ann Arbor. It was so, um, community and family oriented, you know. We were part of other people's families. We. You know, we just moved sort of as a teacher, like any other teacher in that community. And we did the things that other teachers were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were really integrated."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.899016438427461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Um, well, I think. What I do remember about staying the extra two years is that we really wanted to live in a commune when we came home, because Iranians are very communal and, um. We just couldn't understand why everybody in America had their own washer and dryer and everybody in America had their own car and everybody in America had their own vacuum because where in our town, you kind of like. It was more familial groups, but the family would have a whatever and everybody would use it. And the family would have a car and that's why there were 12 people in it. And the extended family. It just seems such a waste for everyone. So we, I remember we sent out this letter. And we had a typewriter, you know, like an old typewriter. I remember typing on this old typewriter.\n\nAnd we sent out this letter kind of expounding on these ideas about materialism. Why couldn't we do it differently? And we just expected everyone to say, yes, let's go all live together in wherever. And of course nobody did. And we were, we were really disappointed. I think when we came back, um, that I was, you know, fairly odd. I refused to have furniture in my house. But I had lunch on the floor and lived like an arrangement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now again, did you come back in between or did you stay straight through four years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Straight through. We traveled. We came home to visit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, but then why did you decide to stay on longer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just didn't want to come home. We just really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had that sense of the materialism back here and you just wanted to be in that culture basically?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.554462709363846, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Straight through. We traveled. We came home to visit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, but then why did you decide to stay on longer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just didn't want to come home. We just really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had that sense of the materialism back here and you just wanted to be in that culture basically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we just wanted to be there. We would have, actually, I think at certain points we wanted to just stay there forever. We were totally happy. And that's that story I told you before about kind of understanding that maybe we were totally happy, but we weren't totally being real. Was it kind of a jolt? Because I think we. You know, that they were never going to understand our needs. We might understand their needs better, but I'm not sure that they would have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you were totally happy, wanted to live in this kind of culture versus the culture back in the States. But then there was that jolt at some point towards the end of that and realized, wow, there's this gulf between us."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.282736343737606, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just didn't want to come home. We just really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had that sense of the materialism back here and you just wanted to be in that culture basically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we just wanted to be there. We would have, actually, I think at certain points we wanted to just stay there forever. We were totally happy. And that's that story I told you before about kind of understanding that maybe we were totally happy, but we weren't totally being real. Was it kind of a jolt? Because I think we. You know, that they were never going to understand our needs. We might understand their needs better, but I'm not sure that they would have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you were totally happy, wanted to live in this kind of culture versus the culture back in the States. But then there was that jolt at some point towards the end of that and realized, wow, there's this gulf between us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That doesn't seem to be a shortening."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.091929270819563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we just wanted to be there. We would have, actually, I think at certain points we wanted to just stay there forever. We were totally happy. And that's that story I told you before about kind of understanding that maybe we were totally happy, but we weren't totally being real. Was it kind of a jolt? Because I think we. You know, that they were never going to understand our needs. We might understand their needs better, but I'm not sure that they would have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you were totally happy, wanted to live in this kind of culture versus the culture back in the States. But then there was that jolt at some point towards the end of that and realized, wow, there's this gulf between us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That doesn't seem to be a shortening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It's kind of a puzzle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then it's interesting is that, it gets into another question they had here about the impact the Peace Corps had on you first immediately and then long term. And it sounds like the immediate one you were answering, that the immediate effect of, if not the Peace Corps, living in Iran, was to try to bring Iran back to the States when you go back. And maybe that intensified your culture shock a bit, it sounds like? Talk about that immediate effect again."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.879921412021737, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That doesn't seem to be a shortening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It's kind of a puzzle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then it's interesting is that, it gets into another question they had here about the impact the Peace Corps had on you first immediately and then long term. And it sounds like the immediate one you were answering, that the immediate effect of, if not the Peace Corps, living in Iran, was to try to bring Iran back to the States when you go back. And maybe that intensified your culture shock a bit, it sounds like? Talk about that immediate effect again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the part, I just. Before we get back to the United States, I just want to say that one of the things I loved the most was doing the training for the Peace Corps, because we, we re-up for two years. And then we were director, uh, Bruce was the director, was the director of the training program. And I, in it, by this time they were doing the whole training program in the country, and I was the cross- cultural director. And that, those last six months of doing the training were just, um, I just loved it. I really love thinking up cross-cultural exercises for people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For example, what kind of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6421876000000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had no furniture. We had carpets. I think we had one little kind of loveseat, cushions maybe stacked up so that we weren't always sitting on the floor. But basically, you're always sitting on the floor and your back gets very strong. Because you sit, you sit cross- legged. Or if you have a long skirt, you're sitting with your legs to the side and your skirt is over your legs and, you know, but you never like put your knees up because your, your skirt might come up. So you really get, you get strong. Your back gets strong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the bed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They have bed rolls and they roll them up in the day because they basically have one room, or a big room, a family room, and then they roll them out at night. And they hate privacy. They're a very communal group. And so they think that the meanest thing you can do is send somebody to their room. And what they would always ask me was, how can your parents sent you here without? They thought like we were delinquents or something, young delinquent adults, that our parents didn't want to be around us, that they had allowed us to come half around the world and not. You know, because they live in multigenerational families and they live together. And the idea that, you know, one child per room, they just think is like torture. They think that's like prison."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm curious, when you say they have no concept of privacy, think it's the worst thing you can do. A person we just interviewed in Nepal talked about a similar thing there, it appears it was the same with you, where they, the people seem to feel that he would be lonely if he was alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would walk into his house any time and think they were doing him a favor. Even when he'd say, I really need some alone time. They wouldn't understand that. Was it similar in Iran that people could walk in any time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9357640000000007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They have bed rolls and they roll them up in the day because they basically have one room, or a big room, a family room, and then they roll them out at night. And they hate privacy. They're a very communal group. And so they think that the meanest thing you can do is send somebody to their room. And what they would always ask me was, how can your parents sent you here without? They thought like we were delinquents or something, young delinquent adults, that our parents didn't want to be around us, that they had allowed us to come half around the world and not. You know, because they live in multigenerational families and they live together. And the idea that, you know, one child per room, they just think is like torture. They think that's like prison."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm curious, when you say they have no concept of privacy, think it's the worst thing you can do. A person we just interviewed in Nepal talked about a similar thing there, it appears it was the same with you, where they, the people seem to feel that he would be lonely if he was alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would walk into his house any time and think they were doing him a favor. Even when he'd say, I really need some alone time. They wouldn't understand that. Was it similar in Iran that people could walk in any time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because we were married. I don't know if he was married or not, but I think that, you know, they respected that kind of couple is a family kind of thing. So they never, never would walk in on us unexpectedly or anything like that. But they did always include us in all their outings. And, you know if, say, Bruce was going down to the store, the minute he stepped out of the house, somebody would come and walk with him down to the market or, you know, no such thing as going out for a evening stroll by yourself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And same for you, if you go out, somebody would join you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2619600000000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would walk into his house any time and think they were doing him a favor. Even when he'd say, I really need some alone time. They wouldn't understand that. Was it similar in Iran that people could walk in any time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because we were married. I don't know if he was married or not, but I think that, you know, they respected that kind of couple is a family kind of thing. So they never, never would walk in on us unexpectedly or anything like that. But they did always include us in all their outings. And, you know if, say, Bruce was going down to the store, the minute he stepped out of the house, somebody would come and walk with him down to the market or, you know, no such thing as going out for a evening stroll by yourself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And same for you, if you go out, somebody would join you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I wouldn't go out. I mean, women were a little bit more in. Not that I couldn't have gone out, but I got more attention when I went out. So I wouldn't just go strolling around by myself. I'd go out with him. And we had a cat. And they thought that was really weird. I mean, it was an alley cat, but we just."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thought it was weird because?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9160000000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I wouldn't go out. I mean, women were a little bit more in. Not that I couldn't have gone out, but I got more attention when I went out. So I wouldn't just go strolling around by myself. I'd go out with him. And we had a cat. And they thought that was really weird. I mean, it was an alley cat, but we just."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thought it was weird because?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They don't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pets?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pets. But I've always had a cat. So that's one weird Americanism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, are there any other stories that happened to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They don't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pets?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pets. But I've always had a cat. So that's one weird Americanism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, are there any other stories that happened to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now I want to go back and reread my letters and, and I'm sure there are lots of stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other health issues, if there was anything like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now I want to go back and reread my letters and, and I'm sure there are lots of stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other health issues, if there was anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I would like to talk more about how it impacted me in my life. Is that, is that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I, when I was thinking about you coming over, I thought that the most important thing was the impact it had on me later on. Immediately was how I lived, you know, that little period where I was neither, uh, you know, fowl, or what is it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fish or fowl?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00198:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I would like to talk more about how it impacted me in my life. Is that, is that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I, when I was thinking about you coming over, I thought that the most important thing was the impact it had on me later on. Immediately was how I lived, you know, that little period where I was neither, uh, you know, fowl, or what is it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fish or fowl?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fish nor fowl. Right. But much more importantly. And then I had a business, a natural skin care business in New York for 20 years. And it was an international, uh, array. I went to all, a lot of trouble to find accouterment from all over the world, because I really wanted people to know that even being clean is. I used to say Mr. Clean is a cross-cultural gypsy. Because that was when that Mr. Clean, the bald man, was like a cleaning product. And so that was a direct impact. And then many, many years later, my son was dyslexic and was, he was a junior. He is dyslexic. And he was a junior in high school and was, I felt, becoming fatigued with his struggle with dyslexia and I wanted to enliven his education and encourage his hope.\n\nAnd I sent him around the world with a tutor and designed that curriculum. And had community service and adventure, education and academic. And I think that people said, well, how did you get that idea or how did you think of it? It just seemed like a, a broadening experience that imparts hope in a person. And I think that's what the Peace Corps did for me. And it's really nice to see it for my son, who's now 22. I feel like he's almost a second generation Peace Corps, even though he wasn't in the organization. I'd love to see him going into Peace Corps, and my other son as well. But I wonder if there are second generational Peace Corps families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are some."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.281181317176799, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, I guess, Bob, that I'm one of those volunteers that did it ass backwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That my first job out of college was assistant director of a Peace Corps training program at Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, the oldest historically Black university in the United States. And it's also the school that Kwame Nkrumah went to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you would, you went there as an undergrad?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went there as an undergraduate and that, although I had a hiatus before I graduated, but I went back and that's where I finished. I started out there in '55. My class was '59, but I graduated. And that I was asked to serve as assistant director of Peace Corps training program, which was for Liberia II, primary school teachers, and that my job primarily was dealing with a lot of the trainees and the psychological aspects and different things like that, doing some of the administrivia as well as doing all the tests and stuff like that, because my background was in psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that your degree?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.458248539724442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went there as an undergraduate and that, although I had a hiatus before I graduated, but I went back and that's where I finished. I started out there in '55. My class was '59, but I graduated. And that I was asked to serve as assistant director of Peace Corps training program, which was for Liberia II, primary school teachers, and that my job primarily was dealing with a lot of the trainees and the psychological aspects and different things like that, doing some of the administrivia as well as doing all the tests and stuff like that, because my background was in psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that your degree?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My undergraduate degree was in psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a major."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where had you grown up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.676850049042521, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a major."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where had you grown up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Cleveland, Ohio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that is my home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When, completed high school there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.529833387825024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Cleveland, Ohio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that is my home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When, completed high school there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I completed high school in Cleveland. And when you say growing up, I really grew up between New York City and I was born in Cleveland. Went to like about the third grade, to New York. Came back to Cleveland in the 10th grade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In high school, was there any kind of family travel or any travel outside the Cleveland - New York circuit?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.366481542027804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that is my home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When, completed high school there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I completed high school in Cleveland. And when you say growing up, I really grew up between New York City and I was born in Cleveland. Went to like about the third grade, to New York. Came back to Cleveland in the 10th grade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In high school, was there any kind of family travel or any travel outside the Cleveland - New York circuit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Other than, you know, to the towns where relatives were and things like that. And most of our family was between Cleveland, in Ohio, or in Pennsylvania. Had no Southern roots basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. During college, did you do any international travel? Any, any national travel or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.328989558059018, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Other than, you know, to the towns where relatives were and things like that. And most of our family was between Cleveland, in Ohio, or in Pennsylvania. Had no Southern roots basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. During college, did you do any international travel? Any, any national travel or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Never. Never did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And as of the time that Peace Corps invited you to work with the Liberia group, you didn't have any special knowledge of Liberia, or did you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.398098462621622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dr. Markham. John Markham. And that, uh, and we had this institute there and that, uh, I also sort of got involved in that. And I guess what heightened part of my sensitivity to some of these things, and I'd always been whether or not I had read about it or knew about it, is that I had always been interested in international affairs. But when I got involved with the institute and some other things that I, you know, pursued it even further and that I was also involved in activities on campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was interesting, one of them was the, uh, the YMCA. And the YMCA, they had things on college campuses around the country. And the fraternity I belonged to, and I have to give them their due, you know, we, you know, ran a number of different things. And one of them was the Y, and I became program chair this one year. And I said, well, what are we going to do? And I wanted to do something that was different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And not your usual thing. And so what we did was to develop a conference that was going to be held on campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what year is this now?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.317058635800525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. Kenya, Kenya was free at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that they had just gotten and then they had the next steps to go through so it was an issue. But it was, it was Zambia and, um, and Zimbabwe now, I can't even remember what the name was at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Northern Rhodesia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Northern Rhodesia. Well, Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I mix them up."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.060293607377726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we asked them to come to the table."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The two sides and talk about issues and things like that. Oh, we got into all kinds of trouble. The university got harassed. Their funding was threatened because. And the main culprits were, were the South Africans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, you know, who tried to put pressure on the State Department not to have this conference. The British were very amenable and they sent representatives and everything else. The Portuguese, they raised some issues, but they decided to participate, as did finally the South Africans, not to the extent we wanted them to. Um. And we brought all these people in and we invited people from other colleges to come down for the conference. It wasn't just that Lincoln in the Northeast corridor. And we got a large, large percentage. The biggest problem that happened out of it was that while there was some civility that went on and, but in the background there a lot of non-civility, if that's a word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hostility is what we call it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.3351078290503775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that we had students that essentially were kidnapped who, they were from Mozambique. Because Lincoln had a number of students from those countries that were there under sponsorship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what the Portuguese did was to have, and they had this big lobbying firm that did a lot of stuff for them and, and is to. They took some of them into town, talked with them, plied them with liquor, and, um, and. And as I understand threatened, you know, their families because they found out, because this one or these one or two, you know, squealed and told and they gave real names and things like that. And so that the families of those others may have been threatened, you know, back home. And so they disappeared, you know, from campus. And the last that we had heard that they were in Lisbon shortly thereafter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that, you know, that was one of my, you know, entrees into the real world of international affairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Now, the Liberia training group was going to be primary school teachers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.816786476722641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what the Portuguese did was to have, and they had this big lobbying firm that did a lot of stuff for them and, and is to. They took some of them into town, talked with them, plied them with liquor, and, um, and. And as I understand threatened, you know, their families because they found out, because this one or these one or two, you know, squealed and told and they gave real names and things like that. And so that the families of those others may have been threatened, you know, back home. And so they disappeared, you know, from campus. And the last that we had heard that they were in Lisbon shortly thereafter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that, you know, that was one of my, you know, entrees into the real world of international affairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Now, the Liberia training group was going to be primary school teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they live on campus?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.351984974136268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that, you know, that was one of my, you know, entrees into the real world of international affairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Now, the Liberia training group was going to be primary school teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they live on campus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was there a conscious, I assume it was a racially mixed group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.94664997126252, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they live on campus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was there a conscious, I assume it was a racially mixed group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And for the most part, Lincoln at that time was still an all Black institution or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.341543174398172, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And for the most part, Lincoln at that time was still an all Black institution or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was all Black for all practical purposes. I mean, there were, I mean, white students had gone to Lincoln almost since the beginning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I mean, but the majority of students there were Black. And it was all male."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yeah. Okay. And how did the trainee program go, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.063633548639718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I mean, but the majority of students there were Black. And it was all male."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yeah. Okay. And how did the trainee program go, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the training program went very well. I mean, we had, um, I think it was the same kinds of problems that Peace Corps might have had with its other training programs. But, I mean, there were no problems on campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That, you know, everyone, you know, mixed freely, I mean. Although the training group was somewhat isolated because they had all the classes during blocks of time and the meals and different things like that. But they were certainly free to move around campus and they were certainly welcome. And we utilized the, um, the resources that were on campus, the human resources on campus for our."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember who ran the program, who was the director of the training faculty?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.078559936592242, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That, you know, everyone, you know, mixed freely, I mean. Although the training group was somewhat isolated because they had all the classes during blocks of time and the meals and different things like that. But they were certainly free to move around campus and they were certainly welcome. And we utilized the, um, the resources that were on campus, the human resources on campus for our."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember who ran the program, who was the director of the training faculty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Binswanger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. And your role was kind of a?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.810790941308097, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't recall his first name right now. We had nicknames for all the professors, but the training director from Peace Corps Washington was Bob Binswanger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at that time, interesting enough, Tom Quimby was the director in Liberia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so he visited the campus and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you met him?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.56754549034233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at that time, interesting enough, Tom Quimby was the director in Liberia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so he visited the campus and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you met him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's where I met him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Training program was over. You had finished your degree."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.408383878158144, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so he visited the campus and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you met him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's where I met him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Training program was over. You had finished your degree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I finished my degree before the training program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were your future plans at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.231537642397939, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's where I met him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Training program was over. You had finished your degree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I finished my degree before the training program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were your future plans at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went down to Peace Corps. I was asked to come down to the Peace Corps Washington to work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Okay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.705602027651777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went down to Peace Corps. I was asked to come down to the Peace Corps Washington to work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because, uh, and one of the, one of the reasons is that, uh. I have to go back just a little bit. At the commencement of '62, I believe it was, of, at Lincoln University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That, um. They have the alumni reunions and one night in the dorm met some people. And we started sitting down, played some poker, drank some liquor, and all that. And one of those people happened to be Franklin Williams."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say that, you know."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.903727459655162, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or at that time we were Negroes or whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that to, you know, to do these kinds of things when there's so much work that needs to be done here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so all during this poker game and, uh, several glasses of scotch and everything else, you know, we, you know, we had some interesting back and forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall what his stance was about, on that issue?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.2263638440612916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that to, you know, to do these kinds of things when there's so much work that needs to be done here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so all during this poker game and, uh, several glasses of scotch and everything else, you know, we, you know, we had some interesting back and forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall what his stance was about, on that issue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not exactly. Other than that he felt that it was also a way in which, while he agreed and because, you know, and he came from that background, he was head of the NAACP out in California and everything else, is that he, he saw this. And these are not his words, but this is the essence of what I think that he said, is that you can look at. There's a lot that needs to be done here, but going overseas and seeing other things and doing what you're doing can give you a different perspective of what it is in the United States. And he was absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Was there any sense, I mean, did he talk in terms of the kind of the Kennedy image of Peace Corps, that it was important for, quote, Americans to be making this gesture to countries, or was it more closer to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7485973383472735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not exactly. Other than that he felt that it was also a way in which, while he agreed and because, you know, and he came from that background, he was head of the NAACP out in California and everything else, is that he, he saw this. And these are not his words, but this is the essence of what I think that he said, is that you can look at. There's a lot that needs to be done here, but going overseas and seeing other things and doing what you're doing can give you a different perspective of what it is in the United States. And he was absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Was there any sense, I mean, did he talk in terms of the kind of the Kennedy image of Peace Corps, that it was important for, quote, Americans to be making this gesture to countries, or was it more closer to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was, he was more, Frank was more pragmatic with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He, I mean, he didn't, you know, at least during this session, I mean, that it wasn't, he wasn't the, you know, rah rah rah rah Kennedy this, that, and the other and got to. No, no, no. He didn't, that was, that was not, that is not what he did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During this time, was there a conscious attempt to do Peace Corps recruitment on the Lincoln campus? Do you recall that particularly?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.053997042608082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was, he was more, Frank was more pragmatic with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He, I mean, he didn't, you know, at least during this session, I mean, that it wasn't, he wasn't the, you know, rah rah rah rah Kennedy this, that, and the other and got to. No, no, no. He didn't, that was, that was not, that is not what he did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During this time, was there a conscious attempt to do Peace Corps recruitment on the Lincoln campus? Do you recall that particularly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When, when he was there? No, he was just there for his reunion and to interact with, you know, with, with the folk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody invited?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.393330047342313, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He, I mean, he didn't, you know, at least during this session, I mean, that it wasn't, he wasn't the, you know, rah rah rah rah Kennedy this, that, and the other and got to. No, no, no. He didn't, that was, that was not, that is not what he did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During this time, was there a conscious attempt to do Peace Corps recruitment on the Lincoln campus? Do you recall that particularly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When, when he was there? No, he was just there for his reunion and to interact with, you know, with, with the folk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody invited?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now he may have talked to administrators, which I didn't know, about the possibility. I'm sure that he was instrumental in a training program coming to Lincoln's campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You don't recall being involved with recruitment on the Lincoln campus at this time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7703667192692363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When, when he was there? No, he was just there for his reunion and to interact with, you know, with, with the folk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody invited?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now he may have talked to administrators, which I didn't know, about the possibility. I'm sure that he was instrumental in a training program coming to Lincoln's campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You don't recall being involved with recruitment on the Lincoln campus at this time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. The meeting with Williams, the Liberia program's done, you're asked to come on up to Washington, and I gather you did so?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.189296354743596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now he may have talked to administrators, which I didn't know, about the possibility. I'm sure that he was instrumental in a training program coming to Lincoln's campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You don't recall being involved with recruitment on the Lincoln campus at this time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. The meeting with Williams, the Liberia program's done, you're asked to come on up to Washington, and I gather you did so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your position or what did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.635523120361586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a classification officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I did, and I was in the division of selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I did was essentially selected people for various programs, so that if you applied, um. And I primarily dealt with Africa, but also, you know, to some extent, sometimes Latin America. And that I would review the applications and everything else and select them for the various programs that we had available."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And based on your decision an invitation would go out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.150581244846206, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I did, and I was in the division of selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I did was essentially selected people for various programs, so that if you applied, um. And I primarily dealt with Africa, but also, you know, to some extent, sometimes Latin America. And that I would review the applications and everything else and select them for the various programs that we had available."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And based on your decision an invitation would go out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the, I'm just interested in this. So what was the dossier or the file that you would have on any individual? It would be their application. References. Was there still a Peace Corps exam then that they had to take?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.722868049829118, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I did was essentially selected people for various programs, so that if you applied, um. And I primarily dealt with Africa, but also, you know, to some extent, sometimes Latin America. And that I would review the applications and everything else and select them for the various programs that we had available."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And based on your decision an invitation would go out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the, I'm just interested in this. So what was the dossier or the file that you would have on any individual? It would be their application. References. Was there still a Peace Corps exam then that they had to take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And FBI background."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3587422775879086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the, I'm just interested in this. So what was the dossier or the file that you would have on any individual? It would be their application. References. Was there still a Peace Corps exam then that they had to take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And FBI background."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or would that come later?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.065269197319898, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And FBI background."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or would that come later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The background sometimes came later, after they were invited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Okay. And were there like 100 possibilities for each slot or was it sort of shifting whoever was available into the slots that were around?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.85029910813322, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or would that come later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The background sometimes came later, after they were invited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Okay. And were there like 100 possibilities for each slot or was it sort of shifting whoever was available into the slots that were around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are different stories about this."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.418791643529794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it's funny, it is that it depended upon the country. Some countries you had a lot of flexibility. Other countries you didn't. I mean, like, for example, in Ghana, there was not a hell of a lot of flexibility. I mean, they wanted science teachers, geography teachers, and stuff like that. And so you sort of had to be on target with that. Nigeria was like that and everything else. In Ethiopia, anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Philippines, anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, that's, we'd fill, we fill these programs, I mean, you know, with all these AB generalists and things like that. Then of course, if there are programs that, you know, that required secretaries or lawyers or different things, veterinarians or what have you, then of course you had to, uh. Those are harder things to fill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your boss in selection, or who was the head of selection? Do you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.57875511546888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, that's, we'd fill, we fill these programs, I mean, you know, with all these AB generalists and things like that. Then of course, if there are programs that, you know, that required secretaries or lawyers or different things, veterinarians or what have you, then of course you had to, uh. Those are harder things to fill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your boss in selection, or who was the head of selection? Do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I should have thought about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not important."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the first one, basically, he used to work for Exxon. He had been head of, I guess now what would be human resources for Exxon. That may come to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. How long did you stay in the selection division or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.169760103523841, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From, for about a year and a half."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I then left and went into training for, uh, for the first group that went to Kenya. Originally, I selected, I selected my own program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that I knew was coming, what was coming down the pike. And originally I was going to go to Uganda and there was a refugee program that was going to be going on, and that sort of fell through. And at the same time that the Kenya program came online. And so then I decided to go into, into that one. And all of my stuff was handled internally and in the director's office. In fact, no one knew other than a few people that I had applied. And my, and in fact when I, in fact when I went to training, you know, no one knew that I had worked in Washington for Peace Corps. And we wanted it like that. And we had to do this little bio thing that it said, I just said I was a minor bureaucrat in Washington."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You fudged. Yeah, okay. What, what motivated you to decide to go to the, for the Ghana, for the Kenya project?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.7441778928042675, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I then left and went into training for, uh, for the first group that went to Kenya. Originally, I selected, I selected my own program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that I knew was coming, what was coming down the pike. And originally I was going to go to Uganda and there was a refugee program that was going to be going on, and that sort of fell through. And at the same time that the Kenya program came online. And so then I decided to go into, into that one. And all of my stuff was handled internally and in the director's office. In fact, no one knew other than a few people that I had applied. And my, and in fact when I, in fact when I went to training, you know, no one knew that I had worked in Washington for Peace Corps. And we wanted it like that. And we had to do this little bio thing that it said, I just said I was a minor bureaucrat in Washington."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You fudged. Yeah, okay. What, what motivated you to decide to go to the, for the Ghana, for the Kenya project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, it seemed interesting. And in the sense that, um, I really liked the Uganda program because it's still refugees and trying people to get resettled, you know, seeing people displaced and everything else. And then the Kenya program, to some extent, which was a land resettlement program, was in some ways the same, the same kind of thing in different ways, except that people had more of an opportunity for self-sufficiency, which in Uganda, they really, they really didn't. It was just trying to make them more comfortable and in a, in a place that, you know, that was foreign to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had no particular interest in teaching?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3824198808936305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that I knew was coming, what was coming down the pike. And originally I was going to go to Uganda and there was a refugee program that was going to be going on, and that sort of fell through. And at the same time that the Kenya program came online. And so then I decided to go into, into that one. And all of my stuff was handled internally and in the director's office. In fact, no one knew other than a few people that I had applied. And my, and in fact when I, in fact when I went to training, you know, no one knew that I had worked in Washington for Peace Corps. And we wanted it like that. And we had to do this little bio thing that it said, I just said I was a minor bureaucrat in Washington."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You fudged. Yeah, okay. What, what motivated you to decide to go to the, for the Ghana, for the Kenya project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, it seemed interesting. And in the sense that, um, I really liked the Uganda program because it's still refugees and trying people to get resettled, you know, seeing people displaced and everything else. And then the Kenya program, to some extent, which was a land resettlement program, was in some ways the same, the same kind of thing in different ways, except that people had more of an opportunity for self-sufficiency, which in Uganda, they really, they really didn't. It was just trying to make them more comfortable and in a, in a place that, you know, that was foreign to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had no particular interest in teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because the initial Kenya group was a group of teachers and the land settlement group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.091577645437368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, it seemed interesting. And in the sense that, um, I really liked the Uganda program because it's still refugees and trying people to get resettled, you know, seeing people displaced and everything else. And then the Kenya program, to some extent, which was a land resettlement program, was in some ways the same, the same kind of thing in different ways, except that people had more of an opportunity for self-sufficiency, which in Uganda, they really, they really didn't. It was just trying to make them more comfortable and in a, in a place that, you know, that was foreign to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had no particular interest in teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because the initial Kenya group was a group of teachers and the land settlement group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me make the record straight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.493247798953865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kenya I was the land resettlement group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kenya II, the teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when we arrived in Kenya, the teachers stood in the back, while Kenya I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Stood up and sang."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.325830887726516, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kenya II, the teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when we arrived in Kenya, the teachers stood in the back, while Kenya I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Stood up and sang."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sang."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Up to, up to the time. That's an issue in a lot of places. Up to the time you went into the training for Kenya, had you learned, had you studied any languages?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.028700986362796, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when we arrived in Kenya, the teachers stood in the back, while Kenya I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Stood up and sang."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sang."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Up to, up to the time. That's an issue in a lot of places. Up to the time you went into the training for Kenya, had you learned, had you studied any languages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was, I was, at that time I was fairly, fairly good in French. And I, and, and believe it or not, I was semi-fluent in Latin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Latin? Were you ever considering becoming a priest?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.442840723904685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was, I was, at that time I was fairly, fairly good in French. And I, and, and believe it or not, I was semi-fluent in Latin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Latin? Were you ever considering becoming a priest?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. But I took Latin all through high school, and I, and I used it as my language requirement in college and I, um, I think I took Latin 3 and Latin 4."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked it. It was easy. And I always figured that, hey, if I need a good, a good grade, that was a way in which to get it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so now kind of you report where for the training? Let me just back up. Your family's reaction to, and friends, your reaction to saying, well, I'm going to go to Kenya with the Peace Corps. You remember anything about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.18869225173418, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked it. It was easy. And I always figured that, hey, if I need a good, a good grade, that was a way in which to get it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so now kind of you report where for the training? Let me just back up. Your family's reaction to, and friends, your reaction to saying, well, I'm going to go to Kenya with the Peace Corps. You remember anything about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thought I was crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because they thought, well, you can have a career in Washington and why mess it or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.109496607079235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thought I was crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because they thought, well, you can have a career in Washington and why mess it or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, the, the idea at that time in 1964 of going overseas and living in a foreign country and being a volunteer and things like that and not a paying job, and that was, in particular in the Black community, I mean, that was not something that was, you know, people just didn't understand that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To any great extent. Now, you know, while I received support but, you know, sure it was questioned in the minds of my family and a number of my friends and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think, what was your own motivation for doing it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.367194721008445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that that was me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then in all honesty, the third factor which made me go when I did was because I got drafted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, uh, I had to make a decision, you know, as to whether or not that I wanted to go into the Army or go overseas as a volunteer. And I decided that I would take my chances and go overseas as a volunteer. And if when I came back home, if I got drafted, then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So be it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.63021635667605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then in all honesty, the third factor which made me go when I did was because I got drafted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, uh, I had to make a decision, you know, as to whether or not that I wanted to go into the Army or go overseas as a volunteer. And I decided that I would take my chances and go overseas as a volunteer. And if when I came back home, if I got drafted, then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So be it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So be it. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your board obviously was one that was willing to offer the deferment? I mean, it wasn't automatic, the board had to decide."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9224626185289444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, uh, I had to make a decision, you know, as to whether or not that I wanted to go into the Army or go overseas as a volunteer. And I decided that I would take my chances and go overseas as a volunteer. And if when I came back home, if I got drafted, then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So be it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So be it. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your board obviously was one that was willing to offer the deferment? I mean, it wasn't automatic, the board had to decide."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Now you report out to Milwaukee, am I right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2471806872543825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So be it. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your board obviously was one that was willing to offer the deferment? I mean, it wasn't automatic, the board had to decide."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Now you report out to Milwaukee, am I right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And meet the Kenya group. What kind of culture shock did you go through in first meeting the group? What was your impression?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.008865045993065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And meet the Kenya group. What kind of culture shock did you go through in first meeting the group? What was your impression?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I didn't go through any culture group, cultural shock at all. That, you know, I think that our group, you know, melded very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, there are a lot of, you know, similar interests and, um. And for purposes of the interview, I'll, I'll be honest and say that I knew more about them than they knew about me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course you would. Yeah, okay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.949216106164277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, there are a lot of, you know, similar interests and, um. And for purposes of the interview, I'll, I'll be honest and say that I knew more about them than they knew about me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course you would. Yeah, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I had selected a number of the people who had, was in the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although that I have to say that I did not, for those that I didn't know, I had not gone and looked at their files. The ones who were in the group were those that happen to come across my desk and everything else. And I didn't know who all the final group was that went out there until I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. How many were, how many were in the group? Do you recall? Approximately."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.499129006849197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I had selected a number of the people who had, was in the group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although that I have to say that I did not, for those that I didn't know, I had not gone and looked at their files. The ones who were in the group were those that happen to come across my desk and everything else. And I didn't know who all the final group was that went out there until I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. How many were, how many were in the group? Do you recall? Approximately."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 38. And I think 33 of us went over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the, um."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.1101433409435515, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although that I have to say that I did not, for those that I didn't know, I had not gone and looked at their files. The ones who were in the group were those that happen to come across my desk and everything else. And I didn't know who all the final group was that went out there until I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. How many were, how many were in the group? Do you recall? Approximately."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 38. And I think 33 of us went over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the, um."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had three married couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three married couples."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.789048156603946, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 38. And I think 33 of us went over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the, um."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had three married couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three married couples."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what was the, the role that you were being trained for? Was that fairly well defined in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.146973032844378, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what was the, the role that you were being trained for? Was that fairly well defined in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I think for, you know, for some of us it was. We, we knew the kind of project that we're being involved in. We knew that we were going to work for the Ministry of Lands and Settlement. We knew that we were going to be assigned to a settlement scheme, either large scale or short scale, and that you might be assigned to a co-op or something like. And I think prepared us for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that what you did was to take some AB generalists, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would, how would you characterize the background of the group? I mean, you, you were coming in with a, essentially with a degree in psychology."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.829970036493753, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I think for, you know, for some of us it was. We, we knew the kind of project that we're being involved in. We knew that we were going to work for the Ministry of Lands and Settlement. We knew that we were going to be assigned to a settlement scheme, either large scale or short scale, and that you might be assigned to a co-op or something like. And I think prepared us for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that what you did was to take some AB generalists, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would, how would you characterize the background of the group? I mean, you, you were coming in with a, essentially with a degree in psychology."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It varied. I mean, we had a couple of lawyers in the group, that others had degrees in anthropology and English and whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anyone who came from an agricultural background?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.182091200264827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because that for the most part, we didn't. I didn't need to be an agriculturalist per se. What I had to do was to be able to organize, get things done, and everything else, and I had the supports to do it, unlike some folk who might have gone to other places in community development projects and just thrown out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything else. Because, you know, for example, where I was, I worked on a settlement scheme that was, that had three parts of it. I was in charge of one of them. The whole thing had 14,000 acres, which had been three farms owned by Europeans. It had then been bought out, they had been bought out and then the land was resold to 364 African farmers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Individuals, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That, uh, who were going to take that and turn it, and most of them coming from a subsistence farm economy to a cash crop. And so our, our job, my job was to, one, was to help them do that. And to do that, though, I had, since we, our crops were tea, pyrethrum, maize, and milk cream. And to take those, those four things using best practices and helping them to understand best practices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there was a governmental structure within Kenya?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.757879111405363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything else. Because, you know, for example, where I was, I worked on a settlement scheme that was, that had three parts of it. I was in charge of one of them. The whole thing had 14,000 acres, which had been three farms owned by Europeans. It had then been bought out, they had been bought out and then the land was resold to 364 African farmers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Individuals, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That, uh, who were going to take that and turn it, and most of them coming from a subsistence farm economy to a cash crop. And so our, our job, my job was to, one, was to help them do that. And to do that, though, I had, since we, our crops were tea, pyrethrum, maize, and milk cream. And to take those, those four things using best practices and helping them to understand best practices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there was a governmental structure within Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is correct. That is correct. I mean, I was really, I ran a government office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So that it wasn't as if you were operating in a vacuum and deciding what was appropriate. You, you had certain guides."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.39764345711707, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That, uh, who were going to take that and turn it, and most of them coming from a subsistence farm economy to a cash crop. And so our, our job, my job was to, one, was to help them do that. And to do that, though, I had, since we, our crops were tea, pyrethrum, maize, and milk cream. And to take those, those four things using best practices and helping them to understand best practices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there was a governmental structure within Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is correct. That is correct. I mean, I was really, I ran a government office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So that it wasn't as if you were operating in a vacuum and deciding what was appropriate. You, you had certain guides."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And we had veterinary staff, we had agricultural staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's jump back to training before you get to Kenya."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.108492730130077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is correct. That is correct. I mean, I was really, I ran a government office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So that it wasn't as if you were operating in a vacuum and deciding what was appropriate. You, you had certain guides."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And we had veterinary staff, we had agricultural staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's jump back to training before you get to Kenya."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assume there was an emphasis on language."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.898325255700086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And we had veterinary staff, we had agricultural staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's jump back to training before you get to Kenya."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assume there was an emphasis on language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How? Tell me about the language training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.666373606289475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that we had language training several hours a day. Every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Five days a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Completely conversational?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, not. No, it wasn't completely conversational. It was also in, in working in terms of what you're doing. So it wasn't just, you know, hello, how are you? This set me up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were you made aware of the fact that your ability in the language, in Swahili, would affect the selection process?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.518192895877194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Five days a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Completely conversational?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, not. No, it wasn't completely conversational. It was also in, in working in terms of what you're doing. So it wasn't just, you know, hello, how are you? This set me up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were you made aware of the fact that your ability in the language, in Swahili, would affect the selection process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. Absolutely. Everyone, everyone understood that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was it that they understood?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.960731970218758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. Absolutely. Everyone, everyone understood that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was it that they understood?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That if you didn't pick up the language, you probably might be deselected simply because that whatever you did, because of where you're going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Unless you got assigned to as Jim Finucan and some of the others to Nairobi, that you were going to have to work in the language. And me, you know, as others did, worked in two languages. I worked in Swahili and Kinandi, you know. Some worked in Kiswahili and Kikuyu."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went in with a certain level of competence in Swahili?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.511924411354175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That if you didn't pick up the language, you probably might be deselected simply because that whatever you did, because of where you're going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Unless you got assigned to as Jim Finucan and some of the others to Nairobi, that you were going to have to work in the language. And me, you know, as others did, worked in two languages. I worked in Swahili and Kinandi, you know. Some worked in Kiswahili and Kikuyu."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went in with a certain level of competence in Swahili?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that measurable, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.570277051054537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that measurable, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. I mean, they, they had ways in which they measured it. A lot of it was based on Foreign Service test kinds of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, and then actually when, when we completed our, our service, you were again tested in terms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, at the end of the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.1891967233939305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. I mean, they, they had ways in which they measured it. A lot of it was based on Foreign Service test kinds of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, and then actually when, when we completed our, our service, you were again tested in terms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, at the end of the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. They, they wanted to know, you know, you know, as a way as, as to how well you progressed while you were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What else went on in training? Language was, clearly was an emphasis. You must have done that every day."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.406415707893741, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. They, they wanted to know, you know, you know, as a way as, as to how well you progressed while you were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What else went on in training? Language was, clearly was an emphasis. You must have done that every day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well languages, uh, then of course there were area studies. And so that you learn about the country you're going to. You learned about the area that you were going to and, you know, the history, cultures, ta da da da da da. And that they, and that they brought people into the training programs from the area. I mean, so that, for example, our Swahili teachers were from East Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that which, you know, they hired. A lot of our area studies people were also from East Africa or experts in, you know, in the field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was St. Clair Drake in your training program or not?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.11823967543749, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well languages, uh, then of course there were area studies. And so that you learn about the country you're going to. You learned about the area that you were going to and, you know, the history, cultures, ta da da da da da. And that they, and that they brought people into the training programs from the area. I mean, so that, for example, our Swahili teachers were from East Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that which, you know, they hired. A lot of our area studies people were also from East Africa or experts in, you know, in the field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was St. Clair Drake in your training program or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I don't think he was. I don't recall. I don't recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He did Ghana program mostly. Okay. I was just. And were there people from the Land Settlement Ministry that came out to take part in the training or just?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.909155194930544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that which, you know, they hired. A lot of our area studies people were also from East Africa or experts in, you know, in the field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was St. Clair Drake in your training program or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I don't think he was. I don't recall. I don't recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He did Ghana program mostly. Okay. I was just. And were there people from the Land Settlement Ministry that came out to take part in the training or just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, they did not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anyone who had ever been a settlement officer who came?\n\nNo."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.565727994367271, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I don't think he was. I don't recall. I don't recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He did Ghana program mostly. Okay. I was just. And were there people from the Land Settlement Ministry that came out to take part in the training or just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, they did not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anyone who had ever been a settlement officer who came?\n\nNo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right.\n\nHowever, having said that, I should say that after we got to Kenya, before we went out to our assignments, we spent two weeks at Kabete, which is this training center. And we interacted with all those kinds of people and gave us a better introduction into what was going on. I mean, we had, we had one person who was on the training staff that knew about, who knew about what was going on. And they, you know, they talked about it. But in terms of anyone coming from Kenya and everything else to just to talk about that, no, that happened after we got there. So we spent two weeks at, uh, at this training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you also had some agricultural training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.2630013640154605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. We, not only, not only, we went up to the University of Wisconsin at Madison, where they had, where the University of Wisconsin has its agricultural school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we spent time up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything else. So, yeah. So we saw cows before we went out to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even if they were American cows."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.497532548167236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything else. So, yeah. So we saw cows before we went out to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even if they were American cows."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But actually, actually though. The cows that they, that they were trying to encourage, you know, are based on Guernseys and different things like that. Because one of the things that, that we got involved in is that on these settlement schemes that you could only use AI to breed cows. And where I worked, if in fact that anyone brought a konyegi cow, and particularly if it was duma, a male that had not been castrated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd confiscate. Hey, we used to have cattle raids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you take to the agricultural studies? I mean, it didn't quite square with your background, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.317941417490414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd confiscate. Hey, we used to have cattle raids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you take to the agricultural studies? I mean, it didn't quite square with your background, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I didn't see it any different. You know, I've been one of these people who have been fortunate in that I've grown up in the concrete jungles of New York and everything else. And then in the, you know, the concrete areas of the Midwest of Cleveland and then have also spent time in small towns along the Ohio River where I had relatives. And that and if you have an open mind that, so I've had, you know, so I've had exposure to those kinds of things. So it wasn't, it wasn't like it was cultural shock to me. And even when I was out at Lincoln University, I mean, Lincoln University was on 252 acres and at one time had its own farm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, our milk that we drank when I went there as a freshman was, you know, came from the farm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the group begin to develop an esprit, a special spirit? But, you know, you were the first to go to Kenya. You were kind of a unique group, different than a lot of Peace Corps projects. Was there some sense of being special?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.811990970494394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know that it was special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I do think that we developed a, an esprit de corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that while, you know, today we don't see each other that often, we know where everybody is and that we, you know, we talk with people. And if you call somebody and you hadn't talked with them in ten years, your call gets returned and you pick up where you left off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, I mention esprit particularly in relation to the selection process, because in training often that's where the sense of group comes out when."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.3466566338826595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I do think that we developed a, an esprit de corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that while, you know, today we don't see each other that often, we know where everybody is and that we, you know, we talk with people. And if you call somebody and you hadn't talked with them in ten years, your call gets returned and you pick up where you left off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, I mention esprit particularly in relation to the selection process, because in training often that's where the sense of group comes out when."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in training I think, I think, I think that it did. I think we did develop a good group and I think that I think everyone sensed who was and who wasn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was selection a tough process, I mean, was there much stress around it or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.9407295932029545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that while, you know, today we don't see each other that often, we know where everybody is and that we, you know, we talk with people. And if you call somebody and you hadn't talked with them in ten years, your call gets returned and you pick up where you left off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, I mention esprit particularly in relation to the selection process, because in training often that's where the sense of group comes out when."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in training I think, I think, I think that it did. I think we did develop a good group and I think that I think everyone sensed who was and who wasn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was selection a tough process, I mean, was there much stress around it or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't, I don't think so, because I think that most people, I think, sensed who was going to be selected out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And a few were, weren't they?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.600810659114393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in training I think, I think, I think that it did. I think we did develop a good group and I think that I think everyone sensed who was and who wasn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was selection a tough process, I mean, was there much stress around it or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't, I don't think so, because I think that most people, I think, sensed who was going to be selected out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And a few were, weren't they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so there wasn't, the group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.334234065682659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't, I don't think so, because I think that most people, I think, sensed who was going to be selected out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And a few were, weren't they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so there wasn't, the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were no surprises."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So the group didn't disagree and say, well, that guy ought to go or. Okay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.14914896186962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so there wasn't, the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were no surprises."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So the group didn't disagree and say, well, that guy ought to go or. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, even though everyone didn't have a clear sense. I'm probably the only one there that had a clear sense because I'd been at, I'd sat in selection groups and other groups and everything else at other college campuses and that. So I had a fairly clear sense, which I did not share with everyone. But I think that no one was really shocked at the ones who were selected out. And I think we, I think we lost three. I can't remember right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Training's over. Any break between finish of training and heading out? Did you get some leave or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.943498846521799, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were no surprises."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So the group didn't disagree and say, well, that guy ought to go or. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, even though everyone didn't have a clear sense. I'm probably the only one there that had a clear sense because I'd been at, I'd sat in selection groups and other groups and everything else at other college campuses and that. So I had a fairly clear sense, which I did not share with everyone. But I think that no one was really shocked at the ones who were selected out. And I think we, I think we lost three. I can't remember right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Training's over. Any break between finish of training and heading out? Did you get some leave or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was about a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Came back home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.337652896940493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was about a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Came back home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I went, I went home and then up to New York and had a big party for the group. And my mother threw a big party for the group because she lived in New York. And one of our other volunteers, Phil Schaffer, I don't know if you remember Phil?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Phil had a party also because he lived in New York. And so before we took off and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And did you come over as a charter group or was it regular commercial?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.380180692205612, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went, we went from New York to Spain on TWA. We had a layover in Spain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Madrid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I think it was Ethiopian Airlines that we then took over from there, stopped in, stopped in Athens and then on down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You remember arriving in Nairobi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.866867435784013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Madrid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I think it was Ethiopian Airlines that we then took over from there, stopped in, stopped in Athens and then on down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You remember arriving in Nairobi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first couple of days like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.407630484204459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I think it was Ethiopian Airlines that we then took over from there, stopped in, stopped in Athens and then on down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You remember arriving in Nairobi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first couple of days like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any real surprises?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.897367204671621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first couple of days like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any real surprises?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. We stayed at the YW-, YMCA. That's where we were put up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wanted to be at the YW but you didn't. Sorry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.219296894079579, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any real surprises?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. We stayed at the YW-, YMCA. That's where we were put up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wanted to be at the YW but you didn't. Sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was near the end of the year. And so, um. And I'll say there wasn't a lot of activity going on. And so we just sort of wandered around and we had some sessions and things like that. And then, and then like that following Monday we then went out to Kabete, which was where the training center was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this Jomo Kenyatta College or not?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3547743267550882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. We stayed at the YW-, YMCA. That's where we were put up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wanted to be at the YW but you didn't. Sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was near the end of the year. And so, um. And I'll say there wasn't a lot of activity going on. And so we just sort of wandered around and we had some sessions and things like that. And then, and then like that following Monday we then went out to Kabete, which was where the training center was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this Jomo Kenyatta College or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at this time it was called, I don't know what it's called now, but it's Lower Kabete. It was Lower Kabete Training Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you recall interacting with Peace Corps staff? I mean, Peace Corps staff was there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5053048075056537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was near the end of the year. And so, um. And I'll say there wasn't a lot of activity going on. And so we just sort of wandered around and we had some sessions and things like that. And then, and then like that following Monday we then went out to Kabete, which was where the training center was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this Jomo Kenyatta College or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at this time it was called, I don't know what it's called now, but it's Lower Kabete. It was Lower Kabete Training Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you recall interacting with Peace Corps staff? I mean, Peace Corps staff was there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. They came around and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Quimby on board when you arrived?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.672560897228504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at this time it was called, I don't know what it's called now, but it's Lower Kabete. It was Lower Kabete Training Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you recall interacting with Peace Corps staff? I mean, Peace Corps staff was there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. They came around and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Quimby on board when you arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or did he come later?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.85840099692056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. They came around and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Quimby on board when you arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or did he come later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Quimby was on board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Up to Kabete. Did you all immediately sort of corner?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0648899965783998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or did he come later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Quimby was on board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Up to Kabete. Did you all immediately sort of corner?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, this is just my group. The teachers went on out to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, no, no, no. Just your group. Did you find yourself cornering Kenyans and trying to speak Swahili to them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.294322218420444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Quimby was on board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Up to Kabete. Did you all immediately sort of corner?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, this is just my group. The teachers went on out to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, no, no, no. Just your group. Did you find yourself cornering Kenyans and trying to speak Swahili to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, we'd try to speak Swahili whenever we could. But we spent two weeks at the training center and that we're sort of isolated except for staff and things and that. And most stuff was done in English. And we're trying to learn how to ride motorcycles and all kinds of stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were assigned motorcycles?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.549246909356049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, this is just my group. The teachers went on out to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, no, no, no. Just your group. Did you find yourself cornering Kenyans and trying to speak Swahili to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, we'd try to speak Swahili whenever we could. But we spent two weeks at the training center and that we're sort of isolated except for staff and things and that. And most stuff was done in English. And we're trying to learn how to ride motorcycles and all kinds of stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were assigned motorcycles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had, we had piki pikis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And then at what point did you, were you given your assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8324965659511654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, we'd try to speak Swahili whenever we could. But we spent two weeks at the training center and that we're sort of isolated except for staff and things and that. And most stuff was done in English. And we're trying to learn how to ride motorcycles and all kinds of stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were assigned motorcycles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had, we had piki pikis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And then at what point did you, were you given your assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we, just before we left the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the pattern of assignment, do you recall, particularly whether, you know, some people said, well, why the hell am I going here? Or how it broke down?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.147218406612406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had, we had piki pikis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And then at what point did you, were you given your assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we, just before we left the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the pattern of assignment, do you recall, particularly whether, you know, some people said, well, why the hell am I going here? Or how it broke down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean, as I recall, we just took it as we, as we saw it. And we didn't ask as to why that I'm going here and someone else is going there. You know, we weren't always sure what the housing accommodations were going to be and stuff like that. And so it was, you know, we just went. You know, we just accepted what they told us for the most."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the arrangement, as you understand it, is that you were working for the resettlement ministry, agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.496909340680451, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we, just before we left the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the pattern of assignment, do you recall, particularly whether, you know, some people said, well, why the hell am I going here? Or how it broke down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean, as I recall, we just took it as we, as we saw it. And we didn't ask as to why that I'm going here and someone else is going there. You know, we weren't always sure what the housing accommodations were going to be and stuff like that. And so it was, you know, we just went. You know, we just accepted what they told us for the most."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the arrangement, as you understand it, is that you were working for the resettlement ministry, agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were being paid by the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.885454822978279, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean, as I recall, we just took it as we, as we saw it. And we didn't ask as to why that I'm going here and someone else is going there. You know, we weren't always sure what the housing accommodations were going to be and stuff like that. And so it was, you know, we just went. You know, we just accepted what they told us for the most."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the arrangement, as you understand it, is that you were working for the resettlement ministry, agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were being paid by the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A living allowance of whatever."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.20606091442031, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were being paid by the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A living allowance of whatever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "800 shillings a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Plus a settling in allowance to get you going. Where were you assigned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3400676826892335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A living allowance of whatever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "800 shillings a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Plus a settling in allowance to get you going. Where were you assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was assigned to a place called Lessos, which is about 200 miles north of Nairobi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's, physically what's the area like? Is it highlands or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.488964091876926, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "800 shillings a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Plus a settling in allowance to get you going. Where were you assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was assigned to a place called Lessos, which is about 200 miles north of Nairobi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's, physically what's the area like? Is it highlands or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's in the highlands and it's all really farming and everything else up there. It's one of the, you know, agriculturally it's one of the richest areas and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Were you assigned alone?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7271161628110195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's in the highlands and it's all really farming and everything else up there. It's one of the, you know, agriculturally it's one of the richest areas and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Were you assigned alone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a volunteer?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but not alone in that there were other people. I worked with a European settlement officer who was already there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And were there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:367", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8976742750753328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but not alone in that there were other people. I worked with a European settlement officer who was already there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And were there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I had, there were three of us. There was, the settlement officer in charge who was the European."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then there was a, an African who was another settlement officer who was in charge of one of the other complexes, and I was assigned to the other. So there are three, there are three complexes. And we each, the three of us, we each had one. And there was one person in charge who was sort of the boss. And then, and we ran the office and did all the stuff that we, that we had to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the background of the European who was the settlement officer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1082398457720157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then there was a, an African who was another settlement officer who was in charge of one of the other complexes, and I was assigned to the other. So there are three, there are three complexes. And we each, the three of us, we each had one. And there was one person in charge who was sort of the boss. And then, and we ran the office and did all the stuff that we, that we had to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the background of the European who was the settlement officer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same as most of them, that they grew up as farmers and different things of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Kenya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had stayed on."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2313776064133508, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same as most of them, that they grew up as farmers and different things of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Kenya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had stayed on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stayed on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Were there any problems with that, do you recall, as you settled in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5202192671769763, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stayed on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Were there any problems with that, do you recall, as you settled in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I was, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't, I didn't have any problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, from the get-go did you have a clear sense of what it is you were supposed to be doing? I mean, what I mean, you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6891325190855293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I was, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't, I didn't have any problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, from the get-go did you have a clear sense of what it is you were supposed to be doing? I mean, what I mean, you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, not from, not from day one. No, I think that once I got there and I we began to talk and everything else and saw what was going on. Then at this particular place, it became a clearer sense of what we were going to do or going to try and do and that. And trying to figure out the best way in which you could do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the typical day like, I mean, during the first four or five months there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8768139100950325, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't, I didn't have any problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, from the get-go did you have a clear sense of what it is you were supposed to be doing? I mean, what I mean, you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, not from, not from day one. No, I think that once I got there and I we began to talk and everything else and saw what was going on. Then at this particular place, it became a clearer sense of what we were going to do or going to try and do and that. And trying to figure out the best way in which you could do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the typical day like, I mean, during the first four or five months there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. Up in the morning, wondering whether or not that we'd have any hot water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's back up. What were your living arrangements?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.943832935519708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then, so I lived in this house and that was an old, you know, European house that, you know, built by brick and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had running water, but the water came from outside and you had a 44 gallon drum and everything else. It wasn't your fancy dancy, you know, water reticulation scheme."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By generator. The refrigerator ran by paraffin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did, uh, since the settlement officer invited you to move in with him, then there was a steward or somebody who took care of the meal preparation and the food shopping?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:393", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1598143727996755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had running water, but the water came from outside and you had a 44 gallon drum and everything else. It wasn't your fancy dancy, you know, water reticulation scheme."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Electricity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By generator. The refrigerator ran by paraffin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did, uh, since the settlement officer invited you to move in with him, then there was a steward or somebody who took care of the meal preparation and the food shopping?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you didn't have to worry about it. You didn't have to bother with that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.399793747555195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By generator. The refrigerator ran by paraffin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did, uh, since the settlement officer invited you to move in with him, then there was a steward or somebody who took care of the meal preparation and the food shopping?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you didn't have to worry about it. You didn't have to bother with that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You were lucky."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.2918981447945055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I understand, but. And the thing is, is that, you know, people can say what they want. But I felt those circumstances also made me a little bit more productive, because given that, you know, having to cut firewood, all this other stuff, I mean, there's no place you'd go buy it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything else that, you know, and that another thing is that you're helping someone with the job and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that I like to think that we paid above the minimum wage, you know, so to speak, in the area. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your living arrangements."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.546553494216117, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everything else that, you know, and that another thing is that you're helping someone with the job and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that I like to think that we paid above the minimum wage, you know, so to speak, in the area. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your living arrangements."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, because I was, I was gone, you know, most of the day. You know, you know, we were out in the fields, you know, seeing that things are being plowed properly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did you, did you have a settlement office on your particular piece of the scheme? Was there, physically was there an office?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3821035585954964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was only one office. So all of us worked out of that one office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then and we had, we had a sort of a complex."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that there was also the office of the cooperative which we are working with, which is also one of my assignments, working with the cooperative for these, you know, for these farmers, because that all the, all the milk and cream was sold through the cooperative. The tea was done through the Kenya Tea Cooperative, all it, you know, all those kinds of things, you know. So they took up a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you'd meet in the main office on any given day, and would you tend to head out to the fields to deal with it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6467817317727738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then and we had, we had a sort of a complex."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that there was also the office of the cooperative which we are working with, which is also one of my assignments, working with the cooperative for these, you know, for these farmers, because that all the, all the milk and cream was sold through the cooperative. The tea was done through the Kenya Tea Cooperative, all it, you know, all those kinds of things, you know. So they took up a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you'd meet in the main office on any given day, and would you tend to head out to the fields to deal with it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Depending upon what the day was or things like that. There's always someone there to man the office because people might be coming in to make loan repayments or different things like that or to get a loan or, you know, or what have you, because all of them had lines of credit that they could borrow against to help further development of their plots and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why wasn't your position being taken by a Kenyan?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:413", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9408685908586376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that there was also the office of the cooperative which we are working with, which is also one of my assignments, working with the cooperative for these, you know, for these farmers, because that all the, all the milk and cream was sold through the cooperative. The tea was done through the Kenya Tea Cooperative, all it, you know, all those kinds of things, you know. So they took up a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you'd meet in the main office on any given day, and would you tend to head out to the fields to deal with it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Depending upon what the day was or things like that. There's always someone there to man the office because people might be coming in to make loan repayments or different things like that or to get a loan or, you know, or what have you, because all of them had lines of credit that they could borrow against to help further development of their plots and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why wasn't your position being taken by a Kenyan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, there are probably a couple of reasons. One is that a lot of Kenyans were being trained to do a number of other things and that they also saw a chance for, quote unquote, good cheap labor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The government of Kenya?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:415", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2676317676207085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Depending upon what the day was or things like that. There's always someone there to man the office because people might be coming in to make loan repayments or different things like that or to get a loan or, you know, or what have you, because all of them had lines of credit that they could borrow against to help further development of their plots and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why wasn't your position being taken by a Kenyan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, there are probably a couple of reasons. One is that a lot of Kenyans were being trained to do a number of other things and that they also saw a chance for, quote unquote, good cheap labor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The government of Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And that, uh, they knew it wasn't going to be a long- term thing, at least in this particular aspect. And that I think that they also thought by bringing in some Americans who are Peace Corps quote volunteers, that it would also reduce the number of the European settlers that they had to hire to do the jobs that they didn't have enough of their own people to fill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The long-term concept of the resettlement program was that eventually the resettlement offices would disappear."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6307019640230096, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, there are probably a couple of reasons. One is that a lot of Kenyans were being trained to do a number of other things and that they also saw a chance for, quote unquote, good cheap labor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The government of Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And that, uh, they knew it wasn't going to be a long- term thing, at least in this particular aspect. And that I think that they also thought by bringing in some Americans who are Peace Corps quote volunteers, that it would also reduce the number of the European settlers that they had to hire to do the jobs that they didn't have enough of their own people to fill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The long-term concept of the resettlement program was that eventually the resettlement offices would disappear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The land would be in the hands of the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:419", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.0341132933588995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And that, uh, they knew it wasn't going to be a long- term thing, at least in this particular aspect. And that I think that they also thought by bringing in some Americans who are Peace Corps quote volunteers, that it would also reduce the number of the European settlers that they had to hire to do the jobs that they didn't have enough of their own people to fill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The long-term concept of the resettlement program was that eventually the resettlement offices would disappear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The land would be in the hands of the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that basically has happened. That basically it's happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the Kenyans and the co-ops would be fine. We were talking about why there wasn't a Kenyan. Were there Kenyans with whom you worked closely and what was their position? I mean, was it, were they lead farmers? Were they clerks of the co-op or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:421", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3712369926209997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The land would be in the hands of the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that basically has happened. That basically it's happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the Kenyans and the co-ops would be fine. We were talking about why there wasn't a Kenyan. Were there Kenyans with whom you worked closely and what was their position? I mean, was it, were they lead farmers? Were they clerks of the co-op or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Over my couple of years there that I went from a, um, settlement officer in charge who was married to an African woman, to a defrocked Kenya farmer who was a failure at farming but a wonderful person, to a Kenyan who was a settlement officer in charge. And that the co-op was always, you know, while I was always an advisor to it, that was always run by the, you know, the local people. And then of course we dealt with the chief and everything else and all the people. All of the agricultural veterinary staff except for the veterinarian were, you know, were Kenyan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was really a considerable structure there that. So I'm a little confused as to what was, why, why were you needed, you know?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:429", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.916075282153635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, someone had to, needed someone to run these various schemes, so I had, you know, maybe a hundred and some odd farms. So I was responsible for working with those 100 farmers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And being available to them, helping them do what they ought to be doing, encourage them to do what they ought to be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, using, using hybrid maize so that you get better yields and understand that, because it costs more. And those who are supposed to grow tea. Tea is very hard to grow. You don't get any return for about three years and then it's modest. And what, and it's hard work. And so because you got to keep it clean, you take care of it. And you put all this money in and they weren't and they didn't see anything coming back. But once it was okay, then you know, that tree if you took care of it, that tree bush was good for 75 years. So and it was trying to work in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the government sort of directing them or encouraging them to go into tea, to keep that product going in Kenya?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.240083646837372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And being available to them, helping them do what they ought to be doing, encourage them to do what they ought to be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, using, using hybrid maize so that you get better yields and understand that, because it costs more. And those who are supposed to grow tea. Tea is very hard to grow. You don't get any return for about three years and then it's modest. And what, and it's hard work. And so because you got to keep it clean, you take care of it. And you put all this money in and they weren't and they didn't see anything coming back. But once it was okay, then you know, that tree if you took care of it, that tree bush was good for 75 years. So and it was trying to work in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the government sort of directing them or encouraging them to go into tea, to keep that product going in Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Well, tea is a major product of Kenya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the farm, a farmer didn't necessarily choose?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:443", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7097714456306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They would have to take out loans and things like that to get it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now they got a lot of technical assistance that was free, but the, a lot of the actual stuff and then there would be a water bill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And getting them to, to buy into that took a lot of work. And when I left that it had been, they had approved it. And that some of the work had begun for it, for it to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whose decision was it that it was a priority to have water, the water supply system developed?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:445", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0108571618117774, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now they got a lot of technical assistance that was free, but the, a lot of the actual stuff and then there would be a water bill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And getting them to, to buy into that took a lot of work. And when I left that it had been, they had approved it. And that some of the work had begun for it, for it to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whose decision was it that it was a priority to have water, the water supply system developed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I think that it was a combination, that some of it may have come from top down, but I think it also came from bottom up in the sense that, uh, people had to find water. That means they had to move their cattle to go different places where there was water and different things like that, because they didn't have water on their own land and things like that. So to have water on your own land made it easier for you to, one, feed your cattle, which they all, which they all did. Two, get water to, you know, for your, for your veggies and whatever else you did. It was also a way in which you might in the long run. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tape two. Okay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7171076071750337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I think that it was a combination, that some of it may have come from top down, but I think it also came from bottom up in the sense that, uh, people had to find water. That means they had to move their cattle to go different places where there was water and different things like that, because they didn't have water on their own land and things like that. So to have water on your own land made it easier for you to, one, feed your cattle, which they all, which they all did. Two, get water to, you know, for your, for your veggies and whatever else you did. It was also a way in which you might in the long run. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tape two. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mungu meaning, you know, God."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, you know, for your, your maize and everything else that you need water. And so that if you, if there was a time when the rains weren't as good as they should be or you need it, then it might be ways you can develop by having water on your plot to water your, your maize and different things like that, feed your animals. Do your stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In doing this community development, did you work much with traditional leaders within the tribal structure or the traditional structure?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.130119563527815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mungu meaning, you know, God."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, you know, for your, your maize and everything else that you need water. And so that if you, if there was a time when the rains weren't as good as they should be or you need it, then it might be ways you can develop by having water on your plot to water your, your maize and different things like that, feed your animals. Do your stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In doing this community development, did you work much with traditional leaders within the tribal structure or the traditional structure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything we did was with the, uh, the traditional leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the particular group with which you were working were what?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:453", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.477910626142017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, you know, for your, your maize and everything else that you need water. And so that if you, if there was a time when the rains weren't as good as they should be or you need it, then it might be ways you can develop by having water on your plot to water your, your maize and different things like that, feed your animals. Do your stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In doing this community development, did you work much with traditional leaders within the tribal structure or the traditional structure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything we did was with the, uh, the traditional leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the particular group with which you were working were what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nandi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nandi. And as of '64, when you were there, there was still, uh, it was independent and there were other governmental structures that had. There was still a strong traditional division and, oh, interconnection or whatever you want to call it. Did that still exist?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:455", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8643451401577966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything we did was with the, uh, the traditional leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the particular group with which you were working were what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nandi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nandi. And as of '64, when you were there, there was still, uh, it was independent and there were other governmental structures that had. There was still a strong traditional division and, oh, interconnection or whatever you want to call it. Did that still exist?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, you had to deal with the traditional leaders, the chiefs, and all the rest of them. I mean, that was, or else you couldn't get anything done. And that if you want to do anything that involved all the farmers, that if the chairman of the cooperative wasn't convinced that it was a good thing, then you had problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you also, did you begin to teach yourself the Nandi language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:457", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.293716822397552, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nandi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nandi. And as of '64, when you were there, there was still, uh, it was independent and there were other governmental structures that had. There was still a strong traditional division and, oh, interconnection or whatever you want to call it. Did that still exist?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, you had to deal with the traditional leaders, the chiefs, and all the rest of them. I mean, that was, or else you couldn't get anything done. And that if you want to do anything that involved all the farmers, that if the chairman of the cooperative wasn't convinced that it was a good thing, then you had problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you also, did you begin to teach yourself the Nandi language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just on your own?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:459", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.770796469330612, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, you had to deal with the traditional leaders, the chiefs, and all the rest of them. I mean, that was, or else you couldn't get anything done. And that if you want to do anything that involved all the farmers, that if the chairman of the cooperative wasn't convinced that it was a good thing, then you had problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you also, did you begin to teach yourself the Nandi language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just on your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. Well, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you listen and you pick up things. I've, I've always been fairly good with languages and, you know, I didn't sit down with anyone and say, well, you know, sometimes I did, you know, certain kinds of things. And because it was funny, because a lot of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your old Latin background."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:461", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.189773854811791, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just on your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. Well, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you listen and you pick up things. I've, I've always been fairly good with languages and, you know, I didn't sit down with anyone and say, well, you know, sometimes I did, you know, certain kinds of things. And because it was funny, because a lot of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your old Latin background."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of times it was that I'd be in a meeting with the co-op and with the board and that they were all speaking Kinande. And I listened for a while and everything else, and then pretty soon I would interject and say, you know, can you speak in Swahili, you know? And, you know, over a period of time, you know, they can still speak in Kinande and I knew what they're talking about. I knew exactly what they were saying. But most, and I think they did too, knew that I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So very little of your business was conducted in English. Most of the farmers and co-op people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:463", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.655304283124212, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. Well, sort of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you listen and you pick up things. I've, I've always been fairly good with languages and, you know, I didn't sit down with anyone and say, well, you know, sometimes I did, you know, certain kinds of things. And because it was funny, because a lot of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your old Latin background."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of times it was that I'd be in a meeting with the co-op and with the board and that they were all speaking Kinande. And I listened for a while and everything else, and then pretty soon I would interject and say, you know, can you speak in Swahili, you know? And, you know, over a period of time, you know, they can still speak in Kinande and I knew what they're talking about. I knew exactly what they were saying. But most, and I think they did too, knew that I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So very little of your business was conducted in English. Most of the farmers and co-op people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Weren't likely to get into an English conversation with you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:465", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.061449203471347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of times it was that I'd be in a meeting with the co-op and with the board and that they were all speaking Kinande. And I listened for a while and everything else, and then pretty soon I would interject and say, you know, can you speak in Swahili, you know? And, you know, over a period of time, you know, they can still speak in Kinande and I knew what they're talking about. I knew exactly what they were saying. But most, and I think they did too, knew that I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So very little of your business was conducted in English. Most of the farmers and co-op people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Weren't likely to get into an English conversation with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's, that's correct. Right. The only, there were some who did, and that's because they wanted to use English or learn their English because they, they, particularly some of the staff, the veterinary staff, the agricultural staff. And, you know, they'd gone to maybe a training course or something like that and then got their job and that if they could. And maybe finished the maybe eighth grade or something like that. And if they could improve their English, they thought that I was going to help them improve themselves in terms of. So, yeah, they would want to, a lot of times they would want to speak in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most of them lived up on the scheme also?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:467", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.512721337190385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Weren't likely to get into an English conversation with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's, that's correct. Right. The only, there were some who did, and that's because they wanted to use English or learn their English because they, they, particularly some of the staff, the veterinary staff, the agricultural staff. And, you know, they'd gone to maybe a training course or something like that and then got their job and that if they could. And maybe finished the maybe eighth grade or something like that. And if they could improve their English, they thought that I was going to help them improve themselves in terms of. So, yeah, they would want to, a lot of times they would want to speak in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most of them lived up on the scheme also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a nearby city, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:469", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.903023707989316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's, that's correct. Right. The only, there were some who did, and that's because they wanted to use English or learn their English because they, they, particularly some of the staff, the veterinary staff, the agricultural staff. And, you know, they'd gone to maybe a training course or something like that and then got their job and that if they could. And maybe finished the maybe eighth grade or something like that. And if they could improve their English, they thought that I was going to help them improve themselves in terms of. So, yeah, they would want to, a lot of times they would want to speak in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most of them lived up on the scheme also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a nearby city, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the closest city to us was Eldoret."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And did you go in to Eldoret very often?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.336693008877018, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a nearby city, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the closest city to us was Eldoret."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And did you go in to Eldoret very often?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Several times a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shopping, recreation, just?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:473", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7074366765300195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the closest city to us was Eldoret."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And did you go in to Eldoret very often?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Several times a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shopping, recreation, just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, usually it was probably for shopping. Occasionally you went in there because usually the lawyer from the co-op would pick up the mail and then bring it out. And so when I went in, it would probably be for shopping or for some official business or something like that. Therefore, I could take my Land Rover or my motorbike, motorcycle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, yeah, yeah. Did you, did you? The Land Rover was, belonged to the settlement scheme."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:475", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.119374085033355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Several times a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shopping, recreation, just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, usually it was probably for shopping. Occasionally you went in there because usually the lawyer from the co-op would pick up the mail and then bring it out. And so when I went in, it would probably be for shopping or for some official business or something like that. Therefore, I could take my Land Rover or my motorbike, motorcycle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, yeah, yeah. Did you, did you? The Land Rover was, belonged to the settlement scheme."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And the motorcycle belonged to the settlement scheme. Had a GK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Peace Corps had arranged to have that assigned to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:479", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.851079117325129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And the motorcycle belonged to the settlement scheme. Had a GK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Peace Corps had arranged to have that assigned to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And every volunteer in settlement was allowed, I think, 200 miles a month. Which they had to pay for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For private use."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. During your first year, was there a point when you sort of sat back and said, oh my God, I'm here, I'm doing this? I mean, was the, did you have a sense that it was happening? Did it change during the first year? It was tough at the beginning, easier, or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:483", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.5198507621297885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For private use."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. During your first year, was there a point when you sort of sat back and said, oh my God, I'm here, I'm doing this? I mean, was the, did you have a sense that it was happening? Did it change during the first year? It was tough at the beginning, easier, or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. Actually, it was great the whole time. I didn't, I didn't really have any major problems. Uh, the. Sometimes the moving. I lived in three different places, not to different locations, but three different sites on the settlement scheme. And that, that was bad. And particularly the last, the last couple of months that I was, that I was there. Just simply because it was more of a personal situation as opposed to. I was living with another volunteer and that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Someone from the second group of settlement people?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:485", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9109452912553206, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. Actually, it was great the whole time. I didn't, I didn't really have any major problems. Uh, the. Sometimes the moving. I lived in three different places, not to different locations, but three different sites on the settlement scheme. And that, that was bad. And particularly the last, the last couple of months that I was, that I was there. Just simply because it was more of a personal situation as opposed to. I was living with another volunteer and that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Someone from the second group of settlement people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was, I think he might have been in the third group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:487", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.345494768061467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Someone from the second group of settlement people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was, I think he might have been in the third group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And actually he was, he was going to be the one that was going to be the technician on the water stuff and everything else after we put all this other stuff together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:489", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.828327520068297, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was, I think he might have been in the third group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And actually he was, he was going to be the one that was going to be the technician on the water stuff and everything else after we put all this other stuff together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and I got put out the house that I was in before because we got a new settlement officer in charge and he wanted the whole house. So we had moved. I had to move up to this other one and then this guy came and, you know, but it wasn't, you know, made the adjustment and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have much choice, I mean, it was expected that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:491", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.364808355631441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And actually he was, he was going to be the one that was going to be the technician on the water stuff and everything else after we put all this other stuff together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and I got put out the house that I was in before because we got a new settlement officer in charge and he wanted the whole house. So we had moved. I had to move up to this other one and then this guy came and, you know, but it wasn't, you know, made the adjustment and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have much choice, I mean, it was expected that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have a choice. But I mean, it was fine. I mean, you know, one of the things that I, I had learned is that, you know, you adjust with what happens. So it wasn't no big deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, did the group meet at different points during your service? Were there conferences or get-togethers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:493", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.960898172923823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and I got put out the house that I was in before because we got a new settlement officer in charge and he wanted the whole house. So we had moved. I had to move up to this other one and then this guy came and, you know, but it wasn't, you know, made the adjustment and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have much choice, I mean, it was expected that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have a choice. But I mean, it was fine. I mean, you know, one of the things that I, I had learned is that, you know, you adjust with what happens. So it wasn't no big deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, did the group meet at different points during your service? Were there conferences or get-togethers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were, um. We had parties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course. I mean Peace Corps sanctioned conferences."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:497", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.248022435708424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were, um. We had parties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, of course. I mean Peace Corps sanctioned conferences."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there were only, as I recall, I think there may have been only one during our, my tenure that was Peace Corps called, where we had to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Until the end. Yeah, pretty much we were on, pretty much we were on our own. All the other meetings we went to were basically business meetings or that when we got people together or we decided we were going to meet in Nakuru or Nairobi or."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much contact with Peace Corps staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:503", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.336107593564368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, you know, if we needed them, we talked to them, but, you know, they came out and visit. I mean, you know. You know, Tom, you know, came out to, to see me this one time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, uh. Actually, I think that was about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably the doctor, because he liked to travel. Campbell, was that his name? The hunter."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:505", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.151230659515964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, you know, if we needed them, we talked to them, but, you know, they came out and visit. I mean, you know. You know, Tom, you know, came out to, to see me this one time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, uh. Actually, I think that was about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably the doctor, because he liked to travel. Campbell, was that his name? The hunter."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Campbell?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I could. Speaking of that, generally speaking, how was your health?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:515", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.755864891049743, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I did not have any problems while I was there, even though it was, I was six months into the thing and found out that, uh, that our cook was using the water from the tap, which was not purified, to make ice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because this ice was only used for booze, I guess that destroyed it so I never got sick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And no, I didn't, I did not have any health problems whatsoever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Did you get a major break between first and second year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:517", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.95096099005527, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because this ice was only used for booze, I guess that destroyed it so I never got sick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And no, I didn't, I did not have any health problems whatsoever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Did you get a major break between first and second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no travel outside Kenya or even inside?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:527", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 7.222579535733489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then and then through Tanzania down to Victoria Falls. Had a difficult time getting into, um, Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, because we had no diplomatic, uh. This was during the time that we didn't have any diplomatic relations with them. We finally got across, stopped in, um, we couldn't find a hotel to stay in. There were three of us. Two Blacks, two whites, and that, um, and so we couldn't find a hotel that we could stay in in Southern Rhodesia right across Victoria Falls. So we traveled on. We found one of these hostels or, you know, roadside hotels. And we went in, we slept there. And in the middle of the night, the police came."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we had to leave. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we had to, uh, go out and we wound up sleeping on the side of the road. And the professor that we were riding with, he slept in the car. We had this Volkswagen, but it wasn't a van. It was his, one of those station wagons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, little things. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:529", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4695328174816553, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we had to leave. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we had to, uh, go out and we wound up sleeping on the side of the road. And the professor that we were riding with, he slept in the car. We had this Volkswagen, but it wasn't a van. It was his, one of those station wagons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, little things. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so then we got up the next morning and we went to Bulawayo where we had to get petrol because that was very limited. And then we kept on down to Harare. And we said, okay, now what are we going to do? And decided that we'd stop at the first hotel and that one of us would go in and, and I. And so I went in and said, I'm looking for a hotel where we can stay. And they said, you found one. And so we then checked into this hotel and spent some time and then we left. I couldn't go to South Africa at the time because you had to send the picture and everything else, they wouldn't let us in.\n\nSo we'd left this professor who was from San Jose State who was traveling and he was all education, he was all this stuff. And so that my buddy and I, we then were going on to Malawi and, um, and we thought we were going to take the bus to see the scenic route and everything else. They wouldn't let us go because going back to what I told you about in, um, when I was in college and about this conference. Well, I found out, and I didn't realize it was still in play, but I was persona non grata in all Portuguese territories because I was the one whose name was on all the correspondence and all the communications and things like that for this and with the Portuguese. So I, I could not, I could not go. So we just flew to Malawi from, from Harare and then we took a bus up there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a circuit."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:531", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.743925352757395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we had to, uh, go out and we wound up sleeping on the side of the road. And the professor that we were riding with, he slept in the car. We had this Volkswagen, but it wasn't a van. It was his, one of those station wagons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, little things. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so then we got up the next morning and we went to Bulawayo where we had to get petrol because that was very limited. And then we kept on down to Harare. And we said, okay, now what are we going to do? And decided that we'd stop at the first hotel and that one of us would go in and, and I. And so I went in and said, I'm looking for a hotel where we can stay. And they said, you found one. And so we then checked into this hotel and spent some time and then we left. I couldn't go to South Africa at the time because you had to send the picture and everything else, they wouldn't let us in.\n\nSo we'd left this professor who was from San Jose State who was traveling and he was all education, he was all this stuff. And so that my buddy and I, we then were going on to Malawi and, um, and we thought we were going to take the bus to see the scenic route and everything else. They wouldn't let us go because going back to what I told you about in, um, when I was in college and about this conference. Well, I found out, and I didn't realize it was still in play, but I was persona non grata in all Portuguese territories because I was the one whose name was on all the correspondence and all the communications and things like that for this and with the Portuguese. So I, I could not, I could not go. So we just flew to Malawi from, from Harare and then we took a bus up there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a circuit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But now this was after you were done as a volunteer or just?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:533", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9376948363971052, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so then we got up the next morning and we went to Bulawayo where we had to get petrol because that was very limited. And then we kept on down to Harare. And we said, okay, now what are we going to do? And decided that we'd stop at the first hotel and that one of us would go in and, and I. And so I went in and said, I'm looking for a hotel where we can stay. And they said, you found one. And so we then checked into this hotel and spent some time and then we left. I couldn't go to South Africa at the time because you had to send the picture and everything else, they wouldn't let us in.\n\nSo we'd left this professor who was from San Jose State who was traveling and he was all education, he was all this stuff. And so that my buddy and I, we then were going on to Malawi and, um, and we thought we were going to take the bus to see the scenic route and everything else. They wouldn't let us go because going back to what I told you about in, um, when I was in college and about this conference. Well, I found out, and I didn't realize it was still in play, but I was persona non grata in all Portuguese territories because I was the one whose name was on all the correspondence and all the communications and things like that for this and with the Portuguese. So I, I could not, I could not go. So we just flew to Malawi from, from Harare and then we took a bus up there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a circuit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But now this was after you were done as a volunteer or just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just before I finished. We did it that summer. Did it that summer. Because I had all that time that I hadn't used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Two things. Do you have much impression or much contact with the group of Peace Corps teachers that came?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:535", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.15299426266345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But now this was after you were done as a volunteer or just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just before I finished. We did it that summer. Did it that summer. Because I had all that time that I hadn't used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Two things. Do you have much impression or much contact with the group of Peace Corps teachers that came?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What do you mean by contact?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean. Well, generalized, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:539", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.6580176082264817, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What do you mean by contact?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean. Well, generalized, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, I knew a large part of the, of the teachers, stayed in contact with them. There were some that were close to me in proximity. We'd visit. I'd have them to my settlement scheme. I'd visit them at their schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, you know, there are some I'm still in touch with it at this, at this point. So that there was that communication."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As two years comes to an end, or as it's coming to an end, what kind of evaluation do you make of yourself and of the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:551", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8852847413475473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think that the, the groundwork that was laid really made a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I guess I sort of say that because, one, I know most of them worked their butts off. Now, we had a couple that were sort of, a couple of them had to go home and things like that for other kinds of problems. But for the most part that they worked their butts off trying to do a good job and everything else. And I, I've seen the fruits of some of those labors. Um, well, I clearly cannot take credit for what happened at Lessos. But right now, every farm does have water. I mean, that project did get completed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that many of them have full running water in their homes and everything else on there. The place is, is, uh, they have their own post office now. They, you know, there most of the roads are paved. I mean, we, we put in roads that were more than everything else. The bridges are probably about the same. I mean, I don't think they've changed that much. They put a few more logs in there or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you've been back through the years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:553", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.094760823719497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I guess I sort of say that because, one, I know most of them worked their butts off. Now, we had a couple that were sort of, a couple of them had to go home and things like that for other kinds of problems. But for the most part that they worked their butts off trying to do a good job and everything else. And I, I've seen the fruits of some of those labors. Um, well, I clearly cannot take credit for what happened at Lessos. But right now, every farm does have water. I mean, that project did get completed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that many of them have full running water in their homes and everything else on there. The place is, is, uh, they have their own post office now. They, you know, there most of the roads are paved. I mean, we, we put in roads that were more than everything else. The bridges are probably about the same. I mean, I don't think they've changed that much. They put a few more logs in there or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you've been back through the years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made a few trips. Do you have any idea how many Peace Corps settlement projects followed yours? You mentioned a group three."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:555", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3275120263549964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that many of them have full running water in their homes and everything else on there. The place is, is, uh, they have their own post office now. They, you know, there most of the roads are paved. I mean, we, we put in roads that were more than everything else. The bridges are probably about the same. I mean, I don't think they've changed that much. They put a few more logs in there or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you've been back through the years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made a few trips. Do you have any idea how many Peace Corps settlement projects followed yours? You mentioned a group three."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we were the only one who did what we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The across the board kind of settlement?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:559", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.873471637475304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we were the only one who did what we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The across the board kind of settlement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Everybody else that came over after us who got involved in settlements or something like that were primarily cooperatives or technical people working with the water and different things like that. But who did what we did? I think we were about the only group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we may have been the cause of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your success or your failure?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:563", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.547495848734943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we may have been the cause of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your success or your failure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there are some papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That were written, uh, that were not appreciated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. This is new to me."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:573", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.166837454884829, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Peace Corps what we thought about settlement and everything else. And, and I guess that, I don't know what everyone else wrote, but I know what Tom Giddings and I wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Tom and I were fairly close to each other. He was in Ainabkoi. I was at Lessos and about 30 miles as the crow flies. And we were asked to do this paper on settlement. And what we pointed out, it was sort of like a, a management kind of paper that said what changes had to be made if settlement was going to work, you know. And we hit on some very bad notes, like, you know, people don't need to take tea breaks 40 times a day and have folk running around and that the records need to be, you know, made, made whole. I mean, I can remember times that I would go down to Nairobi armed with books to go through their records to get them clarified because, I mean, they were dunning people for this and saying people are doing this and things were not paid and we'd send all the stuff down there and it didn't, it didn't get in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, you know, we just raised a lot of hell about stuff like that. And, uh, and so when they asked us to write, that's what we wrote. That's what we told them, told them what it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But someone took it to heart, I mean, either they were offended or they?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:575", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4075971720942544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Tom and I were fairly close to each other. He was in Ainabkoi. I was at Lessos and about 30 miles as the crow flies. And we were asked to do this paper on settlement. And what we pointed out, it was sort of like a, a management kind of paper that said what changes had to be made if settlement was going to work, you know. And we hit on some very bad notes, like, you know, people don't need to take tea breaks 40 times a day and have folk running around and that the records need to be, you know, made, made whole. I mean, I can remember times that I would go down to Nairobi armed with books to go through their records to get them clarified because, I mean, they were dunning people for this and saying people are doing this and things were not paid and we'd send all the stuff down there and it didn't, it didn't get in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, you know, we just raised a lot of hell about stuff like that. And, uh, and so when they asked us to write, that's what we wrote. That's what we told them, told them what it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But someone took it to heart, I mean, either they were offended or they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were offended, but that we would write that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. But did Peace Corps make the adjustments, saying that in fact there's truth in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:577", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6751079689936157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, you know, we just raised a lot of hell about stuff like that. And, uh, and so when they asked us to write, that's what we wrote. That's what we told them, told them what it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But someone took it to heart, I mean, either they were offended or they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were offended, but that we would write that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. But did Peace Corps make the adjustments, saying that in fact there's truth in that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Peace Corps. Peace Corps didn't really support that at all, I mean, because they were, they were catching hell. They didn't want, they didn't want the program to, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible] directed by them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:583", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6695582565070173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, you know, they were thinking, you know, could you have said it a different way? I said, well, it's the only way I know how to say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But we knew how to say it, and it was, you know, and Tom and I, you know, worked on it. And I think I still have a copy of the paper and I look at it now, it's so benign. I said, if I wrote that today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it certainly wouldn't sound like this. But they, they really did take offense at it, at what we wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Peace Corps, obviously, in the long run, didn't hold it against you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:585", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.077286951674464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But we knew how to say it, and it was, you know, and Tom and I, you know, worked on it. And I think I still have a copy of the paper and I look at it now, it's so benign. I said, if I wrote that today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it certainly wouldn't sound like this. But they, they really did take offense at it, at what we wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Peace Corps, obviously, in the long run, didn't hold it against you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tom went on to a Peace Corps career."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:587", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.530318835193849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it certainly wouldn't sound like this. But they, they really did take offense at it, at what we wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Peace Corps, obviously, in the long run, didn't hold it against you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tom went on to a Peace Corps career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yeah, he was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he was in Ghana with me."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:589", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.033687594659832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tom went on to a Peace Corps career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yeah, he was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he was in Ghana with me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you know Tom died."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:591", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.592986216288702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yeah, he was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he was in Ghana with me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you know Tom died."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah, that I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, um, what about you? Two years. It's been incredible, I gather. And you must have begun forming plans for a future. I assume you decided you didn't want to stay on beyond the whatever the tour was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:597", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.202998924950208, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I. I had some other plans, and I did not. And I think most of other plans I never followed through with because I got waylaid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because actually, I planned to go back to Washington, maybe work for Peace Corps, Peace Corps Washington, or do some other stuff. But then a friend of mine was running for mayor in the city of Cleveland and had lost in a prior year, prior election, and by a slim margin and was going to run again. And when I went back home, a lot of my friends were going to be involved in the campaign and everything else. So I decided that I would stay in Cleveland at the time, work to help get Carl Stokes elected the first Black mayor of the United States of a major city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's what I did. And so that and that led to a lot of other kinds of things, but never minimized my involvement in either international affairs or the affairs of the Peace Corps, which I have been actively involved until today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. Did you, did you go on for further study at some point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:611", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.0542015324586185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that the Cleveland foundation and unbeknownst to me, they offered me a job. I said, well, and I said, I'm not expecting, I wasn't expecting this. And I said, I have to let you know that when I leave here, I'm going over to City Hall to meet with the mayor and that. And they said, well, you know, I don't know what he's going to do. And I said, you know, I'm not sure either and what's really going to be offered. It's, I know it's going to be a high level appointment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they said, well, the only thing is we're not going to get into a bidding war. That's it. And so when that happened, then I took about two weeks to decide. And I decided to go with the foundation because I figured that that would be better for me going to law school because I was going at night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That didn't happen."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:613", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.615779480509576, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they said, well, the only thing is we're not going to get into a bidding war. That's it. And so when that happened, then I took about two weeks to decide. And I decided to go with the foundation because I figured that that would be better for me going to law school because I was going at night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That didn't happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not working for that foundation. I spent my time traveling a lot and involved a lot of activities, and I probably would have been better off going to the city. And so I just, one of, one of, one of them had to give, had to give. And I gave up, I gave up the law school. I never."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you go back to Kenya?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:615", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.017532756121751, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That didn't happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not working for that foundation. I spent my time traveling a lot and involved a lot of activities, and I probably would have been better off going to the city. And so I just, one of, one of, one of them had to give, had to give. And I gave up, I gave up the law school. I never."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you go back to Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first time was probably in early seventies, and the last time was about '92."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it on business, this trip in the seventies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:617", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.463925284579723, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not working for that foundation. I spent my time traveling a lot and involved a lot of activities, and I probably would have been better off going to the city. And so I just, one of, one of, one of them had to give, had to give. And I gave up, I gave up the law school. I never."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you go back to Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first time was probably in early seventies, and the last time was about '92."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it on business, this trip in the seventies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always traveled on business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, good. Did you get a chance to go back up to the settlement?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:619", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.959916982866359, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first time was probably in early seventies, and the last time was about '92."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it on business, this trip in the seventies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always traveled on business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, good. Did you get a chance to go back up to the settlement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd been up there about four times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first reaction or their reaction? Did anyone remember you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:623", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.012243188723899, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd been up there about four times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first reaction or their reaction? Did anyone remember you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Walked into the post office and the first person I see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is one of the former staff who had a farm there. And we went back to his home and had tea and sat and talked about things. And of course, he tried to get me to help him find some money for some of the country, United States, to go to school, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds familiar. I ask people, it's not always easy to answer. What do you think was the effect of having joined the Peace Corps on your life, your career, and what have you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:629", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.392651836383948, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I. It reinforced for me the kinds of things that I wanted to do in life. And then secondly, that it also gave me an opportunity, particularly at the time in which I did it, was to step back and look at the United States in a context in which it was, it would have been difficult for me to do here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, and what this country was. And what I was in the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's a luxury that one doesn't often get. And as a Peace Corps volunteer, you can do that. I don't know that you could do it that well even if you're in the military and you are stationed abroad, because you're in a different mode. But there when you have these lonely nights, you're reading these books, you're writing all these letters. There's no one else around you. And you begin to think about things, um, and, and you try and put them in perspective. Then it makes you realize certain kinds of things that you may not have otherwise. At least to the, to a, or you can take them to a different level. And I think that that's what, that's what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know if you can respond to this, but did you have a, a special awareness or insight into the fact that you were a Black American serving in the Peace Corps? I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:633", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4230269584987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's a luxury that one doesn't often get. And as a Peace Corps volunteer, you can do that. I don't know that you could do it that well even if you're in the military and you are stationed abroad, because you're in a different mode. But there when you have these lonely nights, you're reading these books, you're writing all these letters. There's no one else around you. And you begin to think about things, um, and, and you try and put them in perspective. Then it makes you realize certain kinds of things that you may not have otherwise. At least to the, to a, or you can take them to a different level. And I think that that's what, that's what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know if you can respond to this, but did you have a, a special awareness or insight into the fact that you were a Black American serving in the Peace Corps? I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And part of it is also because of my experiences prior to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:635", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.025585509443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And part of it is also because of my experiences prior to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, whether I was recruiting someone, going out and everything else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or echoing the discussion with Williams, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:645", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2448907000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they didn't know who we were. So they came to us. And so after we had this talk that, no, we, you know. No, it wasn't a race card, it was an American card that we pulled."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that, um, and so we. And so it turned out we got up, got dressed, and we went back to the pub with the police and had a drink."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And kind of, but it was, that was, that was one scary moment that, at that moment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And coming back did you feel that you had, I mean certainly there was more than enough civil rights activity both before and after '64, '65. Did you feel that you had missed out or that you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:651", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9683000000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, not at all. Um. I wasn't gone long enough to, to really have missed out and because I'd been involved before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then certainly, given the way things were, there was still a lot to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that. No, not, not at all. Not at all. And in fact, as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons that I went back to Cleveland, which I had not planned to at that time, to work specifically in Carl Stokes' campaign."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One last question. Would, would you recommend that a young person today, 19, 20, 21, that they join the Peace Corps? If someone came to you and said, wow, you were in once."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:653", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1870000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then certainly, given the way things were, there was still a lot to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that. No, not, not at all. Not at all. And in fact, as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons that I went back to Cleveland, which I had not planned to at that time, to work specifically in Carl Stokes' campaign."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One last question. Would, would you recommend that a young person today, 19, 20, 21, that they join the Peace Corps? If someone came to you and said, wow, you were in once."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do it every day that I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, why, and what argument do you use or what point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:661", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that while you may start out thinking you're going to save the world and help a lot of people, the real, the real deal is that you have not helped a whole lot and you're not going to make that much of a difference at this point, maybe in the long term like so many other things. But for you, it can mean a big difference in terms of how the rest of your life is going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that it's that kind of, of, it's, Peace Corps can be an intervention in your life that can make a difference which will help you make a greater difference I think later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, and I guess one of the examples is that at the conference in, um, of NPCA in June, the guest speaker or one of the main speakers is going to be the president of Peru. And the only reason that he is doing this is because, as you probably know, that he was taught by Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In fact, I interviewed both of them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00177:663", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that it's that kind of, of, it's, Peace Corps can be an intervention in your life that can make a difference which will help you make a greater difference I think later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, and I guess one of the examples is that at the conference in, um, of NPCA in June, the guest speaker or one of the main speakers is going to be the president of Peru. And the only reason that he is doing this is because, as you probably know, that he was taught by Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In fact, I interviewed both of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pardon?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I interviewed both of them."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.590015112892292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll tell you what. I opened the drawer one time and there were artworks and I went through them and there was one signed by Ben Shahn who I recognized as a relatively prominent American artist. I took it out and drew it to people's attention and I thought that was all very cool. I also—I'm the person who found in the Abbey Row—I believe—that RG 79, also Park Service. There's a pretty well-known photo now of Richard Nixon and Elvis Presley. Nixon invited Presley to the White House for a conference on anti-drug—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. You found that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I'm the person who, who found it. The two of them look like vampires really. They're facing the camera and Presley has a cape on and it's just priceless. I unearthed it from the Abbey Row collection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's amazing. Is there anything else about Still Pictures because I understand you then moved to Public Programs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That opportunity arose because the head of the office had seen my slideshow and made me an offer. I had applied for a promotion in Still Pictures and someone else was selected. I was unhappy there. And so I just moved down to Public Programs. What I did there was I supported the Exhibit staff basically. I did slide shows that were part of Exhibits. I did sales items like a selection of postcards. I did an audiotape on World War II. Those are the ones that I remember. It was all using my Still Picture knowledge, my ability to do research in other records based on my experience as an archivist. And it worked out very nicely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, just to make sure I get the dates, you were in Still Pictures. I don't even think I asked you at the beginning. What year were you hired to be an archives technician for Still—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.54446123654699, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I'm the person who, who found it. The two of them look like vampires really. They're facing the camera and Presley has a cape on and it's just priceless. I unearthed it from the Abbey Row collection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's amazing. Is there anything else about Still Pictures because I understand you then moved to Public Programs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That opportunity arose because the head of the office had seen my slideshow and made me an offer. I had applied for a promotion in Still Pictures and someone else was selected. I was unhappy there. And so I just moved down to Public Programs. What I did there was I supported the Exhibit staff basically. I did slide shows that were part of Exhibits. I did sales items like a selection of postcards. I did an audiotape on World War II. Those are the ones that I remember. It was all using my Still Picture knowledge, my ability to do research in other records based on my experience as an archivist. And it worked out very nicely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, just to make sure I get the dates, you were in Still Pictures. I don't even think I asked you at the beginning. What year were you hired to be an archives technician for Still—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sixty eight. 1968. Same year as the riots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. So you were downtown."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 29.493845818385545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That opportunity arose because the head of the office had seen my slideshow and made me an offer. I had applied for a promotion in Still Pictures and someone else was selected. I was unhappy there. And so I just moved down to Public Programs. What I did there was I supported the Exhibit staff basically. I did slide shows that were part of Exhibits. I did sales items like a selection of postcards. I did an audiotape on World War II. Those are the ones that I remember. It was all using my Still Picture knowledge, my ability to do research in other records based on my experience as an archivist. And it worked out very nicely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, just to make sure I get the dates, you were in Still Pictures. I don't even think I asked you at the beginning. What year were you hired to be an archives technician for Still—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sixty eight. 1968. Same year as the riots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. So you were downtown."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was quite a time. It was quite a time. Then I stayed in Still Pictures—let me think—after 1980—I'd say ‘81, ‘82 and then I went down to Public Programs. I was very happy about that. So that was the sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. In my understanding of NARA history, in the middle of your career at NARA, two big events happened in the eighties, RIFs and our transition to independence. Can you talk a little bit about the RIFs?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 28.326495353761715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sixty eight. 1968. Same year as the riots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. So you were downtown."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was quite a time. It was quite a time. Then I stayed in Still Pictures—let me think—after 1980—I'd say ‘81, ‘82 and then I went down to Public Programs. I was very happy about that. So that was the sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. In my understanding of NARA history, in the middle of your career at NARA, two big events happened in the eighties, RIFs and our transition to independence. Can you talk a little bit about the RIFs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had been down in Public Programs—I'm not sure—several years at least. I was wholly independent. Everybody else there was part of a staff. There was an Education staff. There was an Exhibit staff. And I was sort of solo. When they had to downsize, I was standing out like a sore thumb. They eliminated my job. It was a devastating thing. It was right at Christmas-time I remember. I didn't want to tell anybody. It was just terrible. I got through Christmas. I discovered or was told that I was going to bump—should I explain what bumping means?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.699376979952735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had been down in Public Programs—I'm not sure—several years at least. I was wholly independent. Everybody else there was part of a staff. There was an Education staff. There was an Exhibit staff. And I was sort of solo. When they had to downsize, I was standing out like a sore thumb. They eliminated my job. It was a devastating thing. It was right at Christmas-time I remember. I didn't want to tell anybody. It was just terrible. I got through Christmas. I discovered or was told that I was going to bump—should I explain what bumping means?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The way it works is since I had considerable years of public service, I would bump or take a position of someone with less service and that person would be out of a job or would bump somebody else. It just depended on how many years that person—how many years of service that person had. It turned out that I was going to bump a very good friend of mine, John Vernon, who was working at Suitland as an archivist but in the Records Center. By a stroke of good fortune, Jim Moore, who had not selected me for the promotion in Still Pictures saved me from being sent to Suitland. I somehow finagled an opening in Central Reference. I moved into that. Part of the reason was that at the time I was working on a genealogy slideshow, a way to introduce new genealogists to how you went about research, via a slideshow rather than having the staff explain it a hundred times over. That, of course, was a Central Reference function. So it made sense that I would go to Central Reference and finish that project, which I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what year it was? You said it was right before Christmas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eighty five, eighty six. Eighty four. Something like that. Certainly before ‘89. I know it was well before ‘89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I do have to ask. Is this when you had what is still the envy of folks who were around? The office above—was it above the old theater?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 29.665974422169704, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The way it works is since I had considerable years of public service, I would bump or take a position of someone with less service and that person would be out of a job or would bump somebody else. It just depended on how many years that person—how many years of service that person had. It turned out that I was going to bump a very good friend of mine, John Vernon, who was working at Suitland as an archivist but in the Records Center. By a stroke of good fortune, Jim Moore, who had not selected me for the promotion in Still Pictures saved me from being sent to Suitland. I somehow finagled an opening in Central Reference. I moved into that. Part of the reason was that at the time I was working on a genealogy slideshow, a way to introduce new genealogists to how you went about research, via a slideshow rather than having the staff explain it a hundred times over. That, of course, was a Central Reference function. So it made sense that I would go to Central Reference and finish that project, which I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what year it was? You said it was right before Christmas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eighty five, eighty six. Eighty four. Something like that. Certainly before ‘89. I know it was well before ‘89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I do have to ask. Is this when you had what is still the envy of folks who were around? The office above—was it above the old theater?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have heard a lot about this office."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.4739217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some kind of plan. In other words, when you were evaluated, one of the elements of your evaluation—one of the major ones was how you were doing in public programs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, the performance review."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Performance review. Thank you. Some people like that and some people said, hey, look, I'm an archivist. I'm not a salesperson. Most of them came around and it was terrific for me because that's what I did. They would call me up and they'd say we'd like to do an exhibit and there was a commemoration. I think it was the 50th anniversary of the first controlled, sustained nuclear reaction in Chicago and all the records were there. The San Francisco earthquake, 1906."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I remember mention of a Brown v. Board as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Board of Education in Kansas City. We had the records for that. There were a lot of commemorations and some regions took the lead and I just helped. Others—I basically did the project for them and it was terrific. I always felt well-received by the staff in the regions. There was no—it was rare—one particular region wasn't too open. But everybody else welcomed me, thanked me for my advice, and I felt very needed and appreciated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do know, it was shortly before you retired, but you had a big role in the exhibit that was put on display in the new building that they built in Morrow, Georgia for the Atlanta region."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00040:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.859913, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Performance review. Thank you. Some people like that and some people said, hey, look, I'm an archivist. I'm not a salesperson. Most of them came around and it was terrific for me because that's what I did. They would call me up and they'd say we'd like to do an exhibit and there was a commemoration. I think it was the 50th anniversary of the first controlled, sustained nuclear reaction in Chicago and all the records were there. The San Francisco earthquake, 1906."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I remember mention of a Brown v. Board as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Board of Education in Kansas City. We had the records for that. There were a lot of commemorations and some regions took the lead and I just helped. Others—I basically did the project for them and it was terrific. I always felt well-received by the staff in the regions. There was no—it was rare—one particular region wasn't too open. But everybody else welcomed me, thanked me for my advice, and I felt very needed and appreciated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do know, it was shortly before you retired, but you had a big role in the exhibit that was put on display in the new building that they built in Morrow, Georgia for the Atlanta region."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. That was, that was my last big project and you worked on it with me. And that, that was, that was just wonderful. The thing I remember most is that we did a section on prison records. Some federal penitentiary there in Georgia somewhere and we selected individual cases trying to come up with a variety of crimes from petty larceny to murder and everything in between including perpetrators of various races and backgrounds and ages. It came out really nicely and one morning I went in after the exhibit was up and the cleaning staff was looking at those panels saying things like, no, that, that boy was too young to be sent to prison. And really, really responding and I thought if you could get the cleaning staff interesting in the records that was top notch. That made me very, very happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Indeed. It's what the exhibit is meant to do. Isn't it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 45.546692883014956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Every day was completely full. I'm from Spacelab world, and when you're working a Spacelab mission, you come off console totally drained, mentally and emotionally, basically, because for fourteen days you're just really running and going. When I started this I was going, \"I'm going to be bored. You only talk to the crew twice a day.\" I mean, there's only contact with the crew ten minutes per orbit. That's really amazing. I thought, \"Wow. There's too many people over there; we don't have enough to do. We're going to be sitting around a lot.\" That was not the case at all. [Laughter] We were all busy every minute from the time you walked in the door until the time you left in the evening, and sometimes it would get a little overwhelming, but really the workload was steady. It was like piecing together a jigsaw puzzle sometimes.\\n\\n I thought long-duration missions were going to really be boring compared to Spacelab, but it's not at all. Every day you had a new set of circumstances to deal with, and it tweaked stuff three weeks from now, and you'd have to roll it back in. We had really good support back here in Houston in the [Payload] Operations Support Center, and anytime we had something that was overwhelming, we said, \"Hey, guys, you're just going to have to go work this out,\" and they would pick up the ball and run with it, and come back with a plan. So that's what kept the work from getting overwhelming. But we were busy every minute of every day, that's for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there for a little over four months during the balmy months, September to February."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't get a tan then, did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Minus-36, I think, was the all-time low--Celsius. That was a little chilly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have a new wardrobe of winter clothing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 50.60743653668328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there for a little over four months during the balmy months, September to February."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't get a tan then, did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Minus-36, I think, was the all-time low--Celsius. That was a little chilly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have a new wardrobe of winter clothing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I have some great coats that you don't get to use them here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the worst day that you can remember being the Ops Lead, because I know if they were all full, there had to maybe be one that was more full than the others."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 23.787596515560768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Especially when Wendy was with us, you felt like you needed to bring her in in disguise or something, because the reporters knew who she was. It still was a necessary thing, because she needed to be kept informed, and we did our best job to do that, and she helped us a lot as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she continue assisting with the increment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, she was great. She helped during that six weeks when we were so stretched, plus she developed a plan of where to put stuff on orbit. You have stowage locations, but it changes from what we see. You just kind of make a best guess as to where to put stuff, but you can't tell them; they have to figure it out. So Wendy did all that for Dave. I mean, it was incredible. She put his stuff away in an organized fashion, and then the best thing she did was, she wrote it all down. It was very descriptive detail like, \"Inside this panel on the left wall behind this cable.\" She even sent it down to us from the orbiter so that we knew right where everything was. That was probably a big help to Dave, because he said, \"Patty, it's like trying to work in your closet,\" because there's just so much stuff everywhere. So we had a good description. Dave had the same piece of paper, but we were able to figure everything out from what Wendy had done. So she was a big help during that whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We always see it as very busy, very serious work. Were there light moments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure. Yes. There really are. Even with the Russians, we had celebrations. I mean, they have a lot of holidays. Women's Day is my favorite, of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us why."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.295342030450584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you do both, but having Americans there does help. Actually, it was really nice having Chris Flynn's wife, Alice, there because she and I, if I needed to go do something, she knew that town very well. I'd say, \"Alice, I need this,\" or anybody on the team could say, \"Alice, I don't have any socks. Do you know where to buy them?\" and she would always go with us and help us out. She and I even did some sightseeing things together on my day off, and Chris would always be at work when I was off. You really need to enforce the buddy system there, definitely, for a lot of reasons, but having the Americans there, you always had somebody to go do something with. Very rarely did you strike out on your own. Having Alice there was a lot of fun. She even set up a tour for us one morning to go see the KGB Museum, and I would have never gotten to do that on my own. She would keep us apprised of what the embassy [had going on] was going."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a little strange walking into that museum of something that at that time--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You would think, \"Wow. Who would ever expect you would be seeing this kind of stuff?\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what's in there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of history of the Stalin days, and how everything got started, and the purges. It would show pictures of these people and say, \"These people were all killed.\" What was funny, the first part was they had a picture of each one of the directors of the KGB, and the guy who was doing the tour, he'd go, \"Oh, this guy was director for six months, and then he was killed. And this guy was director for a year, and then he was killed. This guy--\" Every single one of them had been rubbed out. [Laughter] That was probably the most amazing thing to me. Of our spies that they caught, they had how all they figured out they were spies. I mean, that was really fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make sure you don't do any of those things."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.43926892272287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You would think, \"Wow. Who would ever expect you would be seeing this kind of stuff?\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what's in there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of history of the Stalin days, and how everything got started, and the purges. It would show pictures of these people and say, \"These people were all killed.\" What was funny, the first part was they had a picture of each one of the directors of the KGB, and the guy who was doing the tour, he'd go, \"Oh, this guy was director for six months, and then he was killed. And this guy was director for a year, and then he was killed. This guy--\" Every single one of them had been rubbed out. [Laughter] That was probably the most amazing thing to me. Of our spies that they caught, they had how all they figured out they were spies. I mean, that was really fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make sure you don't do any of those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where else did you get to go while you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.376965469692077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of history of the Stalin days, and how everything got started, and the purges. It would show pictures of these people and say, \"These people were all killed.\" What was funny, the first part was they had a picture of each one of the directors of the KGB, and the guy who was doing the tour, he'd go, \"Oh, this guy was director for six months, and then he was killed. And this guy was director for a year, and then he was killed. This guy--\" Every single one of them had been rubbed out. [Laughter] That was probably the most amazing thing to me. Of our spies that they caught, they had how all they figured out they were spies. I mean, that was really fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make sure you don't do any of those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where else did you get to go while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, did the normal tourist things to Red Square and the Kremlin and the Armory. The Armory was fantastic. I've been in a lot of museums, but it was really pretty impressive. I liked going to some of the cathedrals; that was really interesting to me. We went to a couple of monasteries and stuff. I didn't have a lot of time for sightseeing, but I did get to do probably the big things, and that was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did get to see Russian under the snow."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.46538946875565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, did the normal tourist things to Red Square and the Kremlin and the Armory. The Armory was fantastic. I've been in a lot of museums, but it was really pretty impressive. I liked going to some of the cathedrals; that was really interesting to me. We went to a couple of monasteries and stuff. I didn't have a lot of time for sightseeing, but I did get to do probably the big things, and that was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did get to see Russian under the snow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely in the snow. I got to see it in the summer, too, but in the snow, too. I actually like the snow. It was pretty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Picturesque."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is, very. The summer's kind of neat because it stays light so long, but it's also kind of dusty. But the winter, I really like the winter there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After going to all those museums and seeing all that history, then you would walk back into the TsUP and you would be there working with them, did you find that to be a little bit ironic?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.62821052083961, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely in the snow. I got to see it in the summer, too, but in the snow, too. I actually like the snow. It was pretty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Picturesque."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is, very. The summer's kind of neat because it stays light so long, but it's also kind of dusty. But the winter, I really like the winter there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After going to all those museums and seeing all that history, then you would walk back into the TsUP and you would be there working with them, did you find that to be a little bit ironic?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, learning more about he history gave me a better appreciation for their attitudes toward things, more sympathetic to, okay, I understand why they approach things this way because of learning about their past and the way things were, and it kind of carries over a little bit. They do have a different approach than we do. It's hard for me to explain, but learning more about their history, I think, helped me with that and how to approach them on some things. It was a really good exchange. They've learned a lot about us, too. Sometimes I think that's a bad thing, because they're like finding our weaknesses. No, I'm just kidding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we even do that here with our own people."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.5561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've only been back in Houston a brief time. I've been here probably a month now after my transfer. But actually our interpreters are coming this weekend, so this will be my first opportunity to see them in the States. Our interpreters are terrific over there, and they become your good friends, because you spend so much time with them. A couple of them would even take us to museums and go with us, go out to eat with us, and that made it nice because they take you places you might not know about, and they could definitely order something that you wanted you knew what you were getting. Then one of them had us out to his dacha, and just had a great feast for us out there. He and his wife just really had a great time for us. They're going to be here, so we're going to get to pay them back now. So it's going to be fun the next couple of weeks while our interpreters for Phase 2 are here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope you have warned them about the heat. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I even told one of them on the loops yesterday that it's going to be a shocker. \"It's going to be so hot when you get here.\" One of them told me, he said, \"If I ever move to the U.S., I'm going to live where it never gets cold.\" I said, \"Well, Houston would do it.\" I think they're kind of intrigued by it [but] they're going to die when they get here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No matter how long you've been here, you just don't get used to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Paul, do you have any questions for Patty?\n\nTell me about visiting with your co-workers. Did you get to go to their homes? Do you have a Russian best friend?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and it makes it hard when you don't have the language skills. Victor Blagov gave me, right before I left, he gives me this book that says, Your First Thousand Russian Words, and it's a children's book. He said, \"Here, learn fifty words a day.\" It was a big joke. He presented that to me right before I left. His son actually came in the TsUP one day and was sitting down on the console, and he goes, \"So you live here and you don't speak Russian.\" I said, \"No.\" I said, \"I can speak enough to order in a restaurant and buy my groceries and get around town with taxi drivers and stuff, and that's it, but I'm not conversational at all.\" He says, \"I don't know how you do it. How do you talk to my father?\" I said, \"In English.\" He said, \"His English isn't that good.\" His son's English is great. \"His English isn't that good.\" I said, \"We get by. We get by.\" That was probably my biggest regret, is that I could have communicated better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks for communicating with us today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're glad you're back in Houston, even though it's hot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not Huntsville anymore, is it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:90", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're glad you're back in Houston, even though it's hot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not Huntsville anymore, is it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it's actually been nice weather up there. All my friends call me from up there and go, \"Yeah, it's seventy degrees today.\" But it's also been raining like crazy up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we're glad to have you, and we're glad that you spent some time with us."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not Huntsville anymore, is it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it's actually been nice weather up there. All my friends call me from up there and go, \"Yeah, it's seventy degrees today.\" But it's also been raining like crazy up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we're glad to have you, and we're glad that you spent some time with us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I appreciate it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else you want to add?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00813:94", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it's actually been nice weather up there. All my friends call me from up there and go, \"Yeah, it's seventy degrees today.\" But it's also been raining like crazy up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we're glad to have you, and we're glad that you spent some time with us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I appreciate it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else you want to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that I can think of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you so much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00953:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.079179138733434, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That worked out beautifully. [Laughter] The supervisor’s name was Jim Tehann [phonetic], and if I see him next time, I’m going to say, “Boy, Jim, you did me a big favor by not giving me that position.” But at the time, it meant a promotion, see, and I was a little upset about it.\n\nWasn’t NACA out there kind of a stepchild and left alone out in the desert because nobody much wanted anything to do with the desert? And you guys became such a close-knit group, and family-wise, it was a very close-knit group then.\n\nYes, it was.\n\nIt was small, and they had all sorts of family things, and everybody knew everybody, until it started growing faster and faster.\n\nYes, just outside of NACA, in our personal lives, we knew everybody, and we had our parties. We’d have the X-15 flight party, or we’d have the Station parties, and all the wives were involved. No, it was very family oriented back then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were the parties held on base? Like the X-15 parties, were they held there or were they held off-site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, you wouldn’t dare hold them any of those parties we had on the base. [Laughs] Woops.\n\nThey were held at one of the local watering holes, usually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it was at Roseman. What was the—Juanita’s at Roseman. That was a great place to have—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That and The Office.\n\n—yes, and The Office—have parties, after-flight parties. But no, you wouldn’t dare have it on Base at night. [Laughs] But we had, what was it, the NACA—\n\nWe had bowling teams and baseball teams.\n\nYes, and then we even had parties out at [Florence Lowe]\\n\\n “Pancho” [Barnes’] Happy Bottom Riding Club. [Laughs] Now, I’m sure you’ve heard of Pancho’s Happy Bottom Riding Club."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you could tell me your experiences there. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00953:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.878212196041948, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, everybody was there. There was no difference, and everybody was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, there were a lot of successful days at the Center, but there were those days that were bad, when you had bad news came back. Can you share how the Center handled that, and how long it took for the morale to feel like it was good to work again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are you talking about when we’d lose a pilot?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you’d lose a pilot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we lost Joe [Joseph A.] Walker, okay, and that was an unfortunate accident, and I think everybody felt pretty bad about that, because it didn’t need to happen. But I guess you can probably say that about any pilot. But we only lost—we lost Joe Walker and there was Captain Apt. He was an Air Force pilot. Boy, I tell you Rebecca, I don’t remember us losing—we lost another pilot, but he was flying a sailplane up there at California City. It wasn’t even on a project at the Center.\n\nBruce [A. Peterson] got injured, but he came back from that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, he came back."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00953:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.08656721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we went to the Smithsonian, and I’m going in there, and gee, the Smithsonian’s got the X-15 hanging up there. The Phase Two is hanging up there, and there’s the X-1. There’s the Lifting Body M2F3. What other airplane was hanging up there? There was five airplanes. The 818 and the [F]-104-818 was hanging up there. They’re considering that enough of a history to be hanging in the Smithsonian. Now, I worked on some of those things. Then you can get kind of emotional about it. You think, “Wow!”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a success."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So anyway, that portion of it, working in history, I’m sure the family. “Well, gee, my dad did this.” I can hear them now. “My dad worked on that, or did this.” They’ll take a little bit of pride in that. But when you’re doing it, Rebecca, no big deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing your job. Is there some things, Patricia, you can think of that maybe we didn’t talk about today or some other things that come to mind that you thought about that you’d like to mention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks for bringing up the family atmosphere, too, because it tells something about the Center."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00953:94", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.6561000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So anyway, that portion of it, working in history, I’m sure the family. “Well, gee, my dad did this.” I can hear them now. “My dad worked on that, or did this.” They’ll take a little bit of pride in that. But when you’re doing it, Rebecca, no big deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing your job. Is there some things, Patricia, you can think of that maybe we didn’t talk about today or some other things that come to mind that you thought about that you’d like to mention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks for bringing up the family atmosphere, too, because it tells something about the Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was, and I’ll have to say that when he talks about it, when NACA became NASA and as it grew, and I guess it’s because there’s more personnel getting involved, so then it has to become a whole department, and that’s the beginning of this close-knit group. I’m not saying it’s wrong or right, it’s just that the beginning of a different atmosphere. Then the parties got separated. You didn’t interact with the people as much, and, of course, there were more people. So that was the change in dynamics that we were kind of sad to see change, but that was just the way it was.\n\nIt all kind of started with the X-15 Program, I think, after the X-15 and after the Lifting Bodies. After those two programs, then you saw a little bit more of a separation or whatever. But it was just—any organization that expands and gets bigger becomes a bureaucracy, and efficiency goes down. Then I’d always hear people say, “Well, you know, it isn’t like it used to be.” Well, hell, no, it’s not what it used to be. You don’t want it to be like it was or like it used to be, because if it was, you’re not making any progress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. You’re back in that hangar where there’s no air. [Laughter] Back in that wire cage with all the dust."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00953:106", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So those things change.\n\nYes. But anyway, I don’t know if you’re interested in looking at any—I have my old pay records and stuff like that, back, that shows you the progression. I don’t know if that’s any interest or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, not even maybe for us, but it’s certainly something to talk with the History Office at Dryden about, because I’m sure they have an archives that they would like to keep some of those things. It’s getting harder and harder to find older items, because a lot of times people don’t know what to do with them, so they throw them away."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They just toss them, yes.\n\nYes. I’m sure most of that stuff has been tossed and like that, but I kept all my wage increases and all my promotions and all that stuff. I’ve got it all. But you’re right. I mean, probably Dryden. Of course, I’ve got a ton of pictures. You’ve already got a ton of pictures in there, and probably all of them filed there at NACA, anyways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could be. Could be. We just don’t know, because sometimes when budgets start to [decrease], History Offices start to disappear. Or they become shoved under something else, and then things aren’t kept or things get lost or they get moved to another place. So you could at least—and Betty [Love’s] a good person. She knows what’s in that office. She could tell you if some of that stuff is worth filing there. And if not, you let us know, and we’ll see if the Headquarters Office wants some of it. So we’ll do what we can.\\n\\n Well, thanks for talking with me today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you’re welcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00908:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 104.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He came in 1992."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s much later.\n\nSo the Earth System Science had been actually up and going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to work hard until 1990 to get a new start. Once we got a new start and we issued an AO, actually, I think we issued the AO when we got it put in the budget, when we knew it was put into the next year’s budget and had a good chance of passing. We got that information from sources. We had to reduce it some, but okay. We could do that. So anyway, we issued the AO then. Then we got the new start in 1990 (FY 1991), but that meant we didn’t really get any hard money. We had been putting a little bit of money in it, a few million."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this part of the Global Change Research Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Global Change Research Program is a bigger program than Earth Systems Science, or than EOS. We’re talking about EOS here for the most part. Global Change we’ll go into next time. There’s a CEOS [Committee on Earth Observing Satellites] that we’ll go into next time.\\n\\n This is the International Committee on Earth Observing Satellites. What we tried to do was set up, what was mandated by Congress and by the President, that we set up an international Earth observation group to discuss internationally how we could cooperate, which we’d been doing for a few years anyway. That was a group that met twice a year, most of the time, sometimes more frequently, to discuss the international cooperation aspects of the program. Global change got to be a great big thing involving a lot of countries and UNEP [United Nations Environment Programme]. All of these things going on at once required a lot of time and travel. Dixon Butler, [Robert T.] Bob Watson, Stan Wilson, Lisa Shaffer, Peter Backlund, John Theon, other members of my staff and Brent Smith and other members of the International Affairs [Office] were an integral part of these international discussions and agreements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When 1990 came, it was almost a new beginning for you in a lot of ways."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.99740151422182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. My background is that I have a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Washington in Seattle. In between those degrees, I spent about 5 years in the Navy—4 or 5 years in the Navy. I’m still a pilot, and I have great empathy, of course, for flying, pilots in general; and flying in particular is one of my great loves and always has been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever want to be an astronaut?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to see if I could get into the astronaut slots after I was working on Apollo. But, George [M.] Low was not convinced that I wouldn’t do more for the program where I was than trying to aspire to be an astronaut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now let’s talk about where you were and what you did when first you came aboard NASA. Can you describe what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my first interfaces with the NASA are back in the early part of the sixties. The Space Division, at the time, of North American Aviation was running into a number of technical problems and program problems on the Paraglider Program [part of the Gemini Program], and they were looking for strengths, additions to keep that program moving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know there maybe those, George, it suddenly comes to mind, that might not even know that once upon a time there was a paraglider and that there was a chance that Gemini might land on dry land instead of the ocean. You might want to spell that out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.10822390469091, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to see if I could get into the astronaut slots after I was working on Apollo. But, George [M.] Low was not convinced that I wouldn’t do more for the program where I was than trying to aspire to be an astronaut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now let’s talk about where you were and what you did when first you came aboard NASA. Can you describe what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my first interfaces with the NASA are back in the early part of the sixties. The Space Division, at the time, of North American Aviation was running into a number of technical problems and program problems on the Paraglider Program [part of the Gemini Program], and they were looking for strengths, additions to keep that program moving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know there maybe those, George, it suddenly comes to mind, that might not even know that once upon a time there was a paraglider and that there was a chance that Gemini might land on dry land instead of the ocean. You might want to spell that out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. I really should say that that was associated with the Gemini Program. The Program Manager of the NASA at the time was Jim [James A.] Chamberlin; and Jim Chamberlin felt that it was not the right thing to do to land man on the ground on Earth. He wanted to land them with dignity. Landing them on the Earth, on land, like the Russians do, is not very dignified; and the water is just a little bit more dignified, but not much more. So we were trying to provide a Paraglider Program that permitted a little more dignified landing, a little more controlled landing, and one that was more accurate and would place us closer to the recovery ships."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would there be any relationship between the paraglider and its design at that time and the sort of winged spacecraft that eventually the Shuttle became?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.1202487829899, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my first interfaces with the NASA are back in the early part of the sixties. The Space Division, at the time, of North American Aviation was running into a number of technical problems and program problems on the Paraglider Program [part of the Gemini Program], and they were looking for strengths, additions to keep that program moving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know there maybe those, George, it suddenly comes to mind, that might not even know that once upon a time there was a paraglider and that there was a chance that Gemini might land on dry land instead of the ocean. You might want to spell that out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. I really should say that that was associated with the Gemini Program. The Program Manager of the NASA at the time was Jim [James A.] Chamberlin; and Jim Chamberlin felt that it was not the right thing to do to land man on the ground on Earth. He wanted to land them with dignity. Landing them on the Earth, on land, like the Russians do, is not very dignified; and the water is just a little bit more dignified, but not much more. So we were trying to provide a Paraglider Program that permitted a little more dignified landing, a little more controlled landing, and one that was more accurate and would place us closer to the recovery ships."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would there be any relationship between the paraglider and its design at that time and the sort of winged spacecraft that eventually the Shuttle became?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there’s too much of an association with winged spacecraft. There’s a lot of association with the people that fly the so-called maneuverable wings—the Rogallo wings [named for Francis M. Rogallo, a Langley engineer who developed the initial design]. So, Rogallo was behind the wing that we were trying to fly on the Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Rogallo wing. Okay. Let’s talk about it then. You had problems in trying to develop that wing, didn’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.136109608629507, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there’s too much of an association with winged spacecraft. There’s a lot of association with the people that fly the so-called maneuverable wings—the Rogallo wings [named for Francis M. Rogallo, a Langley engineer who developed the initial design]. So, Rogallo was behind the wing that we were trying to fly on the Gemini."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Rogallo wing. Okay. Let’s talk about it then. You had problems in trying to develop that wing, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did. We had a lot of problems trying to develop the wing, and I won’t get into the detailed, technical problems with it. I think there are some interesting aspects of it, from a program point of view. You asked me for my association with the NASA. I found that the NASA hierarchy got into the depths of a lot of these programs and program problems, which was very refreshing to me. I thought that was an excellent thing to do. I think, on industry’s side, there should be more of that, on the top management side, of getting more deeply into problems—particularly where there are critical problems. For example, Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth and I spent a lot of time together on the paraglider, as did some of the people that were surrounding him at the time like Walt [Walter C.] Williams and Jim [James C.] Elms and others that were really trying to participate and help with the program. I thought that was excellent from the ideas that they brought forth technically; it was also great for the troops, with respect to seeing that much interest on the part of a high-level customer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that today, with privatization, NASA perhaps has gone even one step beyond that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beyond that? I’m not quite sure how you mean that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I mean by that, that NASA now seems to be relinquishing control of some facets of its space program to private industry, turning more and more of those controls over to industry, which, of course, was the role that you played earlier on."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.624826677320378, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beyond that? I’m not quite sure how you mean that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I mean by that, that NASA now seems to be relinquishing control of some facets of its space program to private industry, turning more and more of those controls over to industry, which, of course, was the role that you played earlier on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think that trying to commercialize space is excellent. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that thrust. I think the timing of it is critical. You can’t hurry it too fast. I think the NASA did try to hurry that too fast in the case of Jim [James] Beggs and the Shuttle processing activities at the Cape, for example. Good idea but too early, I think. I think that the groundwork for really commercializing space—things like space vehicles—hasn’t really been laid yet with the government. I think we’ve got a long way to go before it’s clear how industry can have the freedom and the flexibility to operate these machines while at the same time making a profit without losing sight of the safety factors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Back in the days of the paraglider, of course, you were trying to create something new—a different landing system for spacecraft. Were there opponents to what you were trying to do within NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, there were opponents, and particularly as we experienced technical difficulties with the system; as you might expect, that always occurs. We were trying to do a very difficult thing of packaging a very large inner tube in a very small bottle, if you [will], like a genie in a bottle, and trying to get it extracted with a tumbling, bowl-like spacecraft that was heavy compared to the wing loadings. So, we had a difficult time trying to make those deployments, a number of which were successful; but to make them repeatable in the same fashion each and every time. Not too different—dissimilar to parachutes, but with a little more vigor I’m afraid [laughs], in some of the deployments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you look back on it, what was the greatest technical issue that you had to face? And were you able to overcome it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 32.40716965338872, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the greatest technical problem that we had with the thing, it’s really not too deep a technical problem. The deployment’s pretty difficult. Getting the wing packed and getting the control cables and whatnot packed in such a way that they don’t damage the inner tube-like structure, as I said—the wing beams, for example—and packed at the densities necessary to get them in the containing volume that we had available to us, was extremely difficult. And to provide that system with the long life that would be necessary in a stowed configuration, so you didn’t have seams come apart and that sort of thing; it was really a kind of a materials problem, a life problem, and, clearly, a deployment problem—a number of which have been addressed and solved in a little less dynamic fashion with the controllable parachutes that you see today. And as a matter of fact, some of the NASA people—Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth, among others—were suggesting that we give a lot of consideration to the steerable parachutes at the time; the controllable parachutes. But the parachutes at that time weren’t as far along; and, of course, like every major program, space program, we didn’t have much time. And we were already pretty well embarked along a given course, so we really didn’t have the flexibility to move much in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were facing the deadlines of: How do we send men to the Moon and get them back alive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and the fundamentals of the Gemini schedule, which really had bigger problems on its hand than just the paraglider. And the paraglider was an interesting adjunct to it, but not a necessary one. In other words, parachutes would still do the job for Gemini, so they could always fall back on that when times got tough and when dollars got tight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, eventually, NASA decided not to use the paraglider in its spaceflight program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must’ve created some problems at North American, didn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.45241072598747, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, and the fundamentals of the Gemini schedule, which really had bigger problems on its hand than just the paraglider. And the paraglider was an interesting adjunct to it, but not a necessary one. In other words, parachutes would still do the job for Gemini, so they could always fall back on that when times got tough and when dollars got tight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, eventually, NASA decided not to use the paraglider in its spaceflight program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must’ve created some problems at North American, didn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me say about problems. Two things about the paraglider at North American. It created a problem, but it was a small program. It didn’t create large layoffs or anything like that, that a big program would. The program was concurrent with the Apollo Program; and the Apollo Program was experiencing a lot of growing pains at that time; and it turned out, interestingly enough since both were in the same Division, that the Paraglider Program broke some ice for the Apollo Program, all the way up and down the line, when it came to inspection systems, when it came to procurement systems, when it came to control systems. Paraglider was finding the problems in those systems before the Apollo was, because the Apollo hadn’t reached that stage of hardware that the paraglider had. So, when I was running the Paraglider Program, we were really being a scout, so to speak, in cleaning up some of the basic problems we had in our fundamental process systems at the Division. And I think that was very helpful to Apollo, albeit painful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Matter of fact, didn’t North American continue with the paraglider on its own after NASA dropped the program? According to my notes here, after NASA stopped the funds, North American continued with some testing and demonstrated a successful landing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.613789695541634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must’ve created some problems at North American, didn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me say about problems. Two things about the paraglider at North American. It created a problem, but it was a small program. It didn’t create large layoffs or anything like that, that a big program would. The program was concurrent with the Apollo Program; and the Apollo Program was experiencing a lot of growing pains at that time; and it turned out, interestingly enough since both were in the same Division, that the Paraglider Program broke some ice for the Apollo Program, all the way up and down the line, when it came to inspection systems, when it came to procurement systems, when it came to control systems. Paraglider was finding the problems in those systems before the Apollo was, because the Apollo hadn’t reached that stage of hardware that the paraglider had. So, when I was running the Paraglider Program, we were really being a scout, so to speak, in cleaning up some of the basic problems we had in our fundamental process systems at the Division. And I think that was very helpful to Apollo, albeit painful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Matter of fact, didn’t North American continue with the paraglider on its own after NASA dropped the program? According to my notes here, after NASA stopped the funds, North American continued with some testing and demonstrated a successful landing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think that’s right. We carried it on to complete the landing ourselves. We had some outstanding people beginning to work well as a team together that enabled that to happen. Not the least of those was [John] Jack Swigert [Jr.]. You know, Jack was a test pilot for me on the Paraglider Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A well-known astronaut."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 35.12643299504626, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me say about problems. Two things about the paraglider at North American. It created a problem, but it was a small program. It didn’t create large layoffs or anything like that, that a big program would. The program was concurrent with the Apollo Program; and the Apollo Program was experiencing a lot of growing pains at that time; and it turned out, interestingly enough since both were in the same Division, that the Paraglider Program broke some ice for the Apollo Program, all the way up and down the line, when it came to inspection systems, when it came to procurement systems, when it came to control systems. Paraglider was finding the problems in those systems before the Apollo was, because the Apollo hadn’t reached that stage of hardware that the paraglider had. So, when I was running the Paraglider Program, we were really being a scout, so to speak, in cleaning up some of the basic problems we had in our fundamental process systems at the Division. And I think that was very helpful to Apollo, albeit painful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Matter of fact, didn’t North American continue with the paraglider on its own after NASA dropped the program? According to my notes here, after NASA stopped the funds, North American continued with some testing and demonstrated a successful landing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think that’s right. We carried it on to complete the landing ourselves. We had some outstanding people beginning to work well as a team together that enabled that to happen. Not the least of those was [John] Jack Swigert [Jr.]. You know, Jack was a test pilot for me on the Paraglider Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A well-known astronaut."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And would-be congressman. He didn’t quite make it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[laughs] Yes, indeed. As you’ve just defined, George, the paraglider was a logical step on the way to the Apollo command and service module, and you wound up being tremendously active in that—from beginning to end. Can you describe some of your Apollo experiences from the beginning? And we’ll just follow it sequentially with you as you went through those growing pains and developments, and from what you remember."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 38.85656103572875, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Let me leave the paraglider with saying that: You’re right; you jogged my memory. We did complete at least through the landing of the Gemini, and we kind of left that in the record book. We did a great deal for the Apollo Program in breaking the ground on the overall systems that were necessary—management systems that were necessary—to make the Apollo happen. And thirdly, as far as me personally and a number of my people, we gained good working experience with the NASA. We met a lot of NASA people in working clothes and in management clothes, all of us; and we worked together as a team; and I think that that certainly helped me later on in my Apollo activities.\\n\\n A couple that I bring to mind there that later were key players in Apollo on the NASA side were people like Scotty [Scott H.] Simpkinson from the inspection side—although you could hardly call Scotty just an inspector; he went far beyond that—and a guy named Marty [Martin L.] Raines, who was the reliability leader down at NASA. And, of course, we worked a lot with the contracting people, which enabled us to better understand where NASA was coming from insofar as later interfaces with Apollo were concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in Apollo you were a prime contractor. You’re talking now the subs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, on Apollo we were prime contractor. But we were running the Paraglider Program directly with the NASA. We weren’t running it through any other company. So, in other words, we didn’t run it through McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation]. We weren’t subcontracting McDonnell; we were contracted directly to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well, I was referring to the Apollo Program. Apollo, you had it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Apollo, we had it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the command and service module."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 43.17395670636528, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, on Apollo we were prime contractor. But we were running the Paraglider Program directly with the NASA. We weren’t running it through any other company. So, in other words, we didn’t run it through McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation]. We weren’t subcontracting McDonnell; we were contracted directly to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well, I was referring to the Apollo Program. Apollo, you had it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Apollo, we had it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the command and service module."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s right. We had the system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were working with the subs throughout that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.232955317848145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that. The NASA, of course, got into it and concurred, finally, with what we did; but we took the lead in doing that. I might also say, when I talked about the V-nuts, I got a little carried away. But it turned out that Bob Gilruth and I got to be the—how should you say it?—parents of the V-nuts on the spacecraft, because we got to know every one of those darn things. I’m not kidding! We went through every one. We had “Betty” and we had “Ann,” and we had every nut you can think on that thing; and he rolled his sleeves up and he went right through that with me, no question about it. So, he and I got to be V-nut experts. In fact, he even helped design some of the sleeves for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was Center Director at that time, wasn’t he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Center Director. You’re damn right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right down there with the troops."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because it was a critical problem. He doesn’t get down on every little problem on the system, but just those that have the potential of really knocking the system off the track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, he was a boss and you were a boss, and you were right down there with the working troops in the field."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.592172575386826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Center Director. You’re damn right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right down there with the troops."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because it was a critical problem. He doesn’t get down on every little problem on the system, but just those that have the potential of really knocking the system off the track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, he was a boss and you were a boss, and you were right down there with the working troops in the field."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Damn right. It got everybody’s attention, and it sure as heck got the problem solved in a big hurry. And then we finally sure as heck changed it to stainless-steel when we had a chance to do so; that’s for sure.\\n\\n I want to say one other thing about the NASA and this attitude of confrontation versus cooperation in combination of the forces. The NASA did an excellent job of changing the focus of their folks from one of just overview to one of rolling up their sleeves and working, too. Because the NASA had great facilities, and they had excellent people; and we worked out a system where the guys started to work together—our guys and their guys worked together—to go to the Moon. And where it was best to a job in their plant or their lab versus ours, it was quickly recognized and we quickly agreed. And we integrated that right into our plans. So they became an active, contributing participant rather than an overseer on the program, and that made a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s one of the tremendous coordination jobs. I’m thinking of the incredible number of people, just plain people, and the various facets of the program. You as the contractor—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 26.21352508376314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because it was a critical problem. He doesn’t get down on every little problem on the system, but just those that have the potential of really knocking the system off the track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, he was a boss and you were a boss, and you were right down there with the working troops in the field."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Damn right. It got everybody’s attention, and it sure as heck got the problem solved in a big hurry. And then we finally sure as heck changed it to stainless-steel when we had a chance to do so; that’s for sure.\\n\\n I want to say one other thing about the NASA and this attitude of confrontation versus cooperation in combination of the forces. The NASA did an excellent job of changing the focus of their folks from one of just overview to one of rolling up their sleeves and working, too. Because the NASA had great facilities, and they had excellent people; and we worked out a system where the guys started to work together—our guys and their guys worked together—to go to the Moon. And where it was best to a job in their plant or their lab versus ours, it was quickly recognized and we quickly agreed. And we integrated that right into our plans. So they became an active, contributing participant rather than an overseer on the program, and that made a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s one of the tremendous coordination jobs. I’m thinking of the incredible number of people, just plain people, and the various facets of the program. You as the contractor—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had 10,000 engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ten thousand? Just you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.015027870847934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Damn right. It got everybody’s attention, and it sure as heck got the problem solved in a big hurry. And then we finally sure as heck changed it to stainless-steel when we had a chance to do so; that’s for sure.\\n\\n I want to say one other thing about the NASA and this attitude of confrontation versus cooperation in combination of the forces. The NASA did an excellent job of changing the focus of their folks from one of just overview to one of rolling up their sleeves and working, too. Because the NASA had great facilities, and they had excellent people; and we worked out a system where the guys started to work together—our guys and their guys worked together—to go to the Moon. And where it was best to a job in their plant or their lab versus ours, it was quickly recognized and we quickly agreed. And we integrated that right into our plans. So they became an active, contributing participant rather than an overseer on the program, and that made a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s one of the tremendous coordination jobs. I’m thinking of the incredible number of people, just plain people, and the various facets of the program. You as the contractor—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had 10,000 engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ten thousand? Just you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just at Rockwell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just Rockwell. Now add to that all your subs, and how many would you say the total number of engineers are you talking about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.12780874538659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had 10,000 engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ten thousand? Just you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just at Rockwell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just Rockwell. Now add to that all your subs, and how many would you say the total number of engineers are you talking about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gee, I don’t know. I think at one time we figured there must’ve been between 35 and 40 thousand people in the program, but that included everybody. I expect that the engineers were probably in the 15/16,000 category, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I guess we’d better spell out this as the building phase, having nothing to do with launching per se. This has nothing to do with flight per se, this is just the building phase."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 34.58645416154066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just at Rockwell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just Rockwell. Now add to that all your subs, and how many would you say the total number of engineers are you talking about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gee, I don’t know. I think at one time we figured there must’ve been between 35 and 40 thousand people in the program, but that included everybody. I expect that the engineers were probably in the 15/16,000 category, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I guess we’d better spell out this as the building phase, having nothing to do with launching per se. This has nothing to do with flight per se, this is just the building phase."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, this is just the R&D [Research and Development] phase of the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An R&D phase that, now I think, we’ve come to a halt with Apollo 1. Because now all these things were beginning to go together. You were beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Or were you? And suddenly, Apollo 1. Disaster."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 40.541768269380654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was selected to peer—or whatever the word is—, I believe it was, the Thompson Board at the time? At the Cape, following the fire at the Cape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t remember the name."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, maybe I’ve got the name incorrectly. But I think that’s what it was, I think. I’ve forgotten. It’s one of those kinds of things that you don’t want to remember any more than you have to about, because of the tragedy associated with the affair. But, I was put on the board, which was purely a NASA board—an investigative board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo Review Board, to give it its official title. That was it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a review board. It soon became clear to the NASA lawyers that maybe that they had a perception of conflict of interest with me on the board, because I was North American. So, after the first couple of weeks of this activity, they changed that and make me an ex officio member of the board. My particular role in that was to try and bring the North American resources to bear to help with that investigation. We had no intention or idea of trying to cover anything up. We were trying to find out the problem just as much as anybody else was; that’s for sure. As a matter of fact, during that first 9 or 10 months, one of the guys that I became very, oh, kind of technically close to was Chaffee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Roger [B.] Chaffee."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00308:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 42.824186965978505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, maybe I’ve got the name incorrectly. But I think that’s what it was, I think. I’ve forgotten. It’s one of those kinds of things that you don’t want to remember any more than you have to about, because of the tragedy associated with the affair. But, I was put on the board, which was purely a NASA board—an investigative board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Apollo Review Board, to give it its official title. That was it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a review board. It soon became clear to the NASA lawyers that maybe that they had a perception of conflict of interest with me on the board, because I was North American. So, after the first couple of weeks of this activity, they changed that and make me an ex officio member of the board. My particular role in that was to try and bring the North American resources to bear to help with that investigation. We had no intention or idea of trying to cover anything up. We were trying to find out the problem just as much as anybody else was; that’s for sure. As a matter of fact, during that first 9 or 10 months, one of the guys that I became very, oh, kind of technically close to was Chaffee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Roger [B.] Chaffee."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Chaffee spent a lot of time—we spent a lot of time late nights and otherwise, on things that were worrying him about the spacecraft, about the procedures, about the displays, the instruments, the panels, etc.; he and I talked over at great length or I’d get the right people in to talk them over with him that knew about it on into the night. Because those guys came out here and lived out here. Chaffee lived out here, you know, for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a member of the crew."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.594982083158534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My name is Lawrence Newman. My address is [address], Upper Marlboro, Maryland."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He also happens to be my husband. I am Linda Millette. Can you describe your present family and your work situation and any interests that you may have at the moment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have five siblings. My father has passed. My mother is still alive. One sister and the rest of the siblings are brothers. I work for the U.S. Department of Education. At the Department of Education, I'm a special assistant to the Inspector General. My duties consists of being an ombudsman. I did Director of Hotline Operations. I'm do human resources work such as surveys, work succession plans, mentoring program, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you have any other interests outside? And what's your immediate family like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My immediate family life like includes working with my wife outside in the garden, working on the lawn, landscaping. I work in the vegetable garden myself. I really enjoy doing that. Plus, we have we have flower gardens. And we chase animals, wild animals quite a bit because of where we live. We live on four acres of land. We have lots of trees, water, and the animals seem to congregate here, especially the deer, the raccoons, and the groundhogs. We stay pretty busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I want you to tell us, if you can, ere the things in your childhood or things in previous to Peace Corps that led you up maybe to having an interest in joining the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 19.54998009239837, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have five siblings. My father has passed. My mother is still alive. One sister and the rest of the siblings are brothers. I work for the U.S. Department of Education. At the Department of Education, I'm a special assistant to the Inspector General. My duties consists of being an ombudsman. I did Director of Hotline Operations. I'm do human resources work such as surveys, work succession plans, mentoring program, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you have any other interests outside? And what's your immediate family like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My immediate family life like includes working with my wife outside in the garden, working on the lawn, landscaping. I work in the vegetable garden myself. I really enjoy doing that. Plus, we have we have flower gardens. And we chase animals, wild animals quite a bit because of where we live. We live on four acres of land. We have lots of trees, water, and the animals seem to congregate here, especially the deer, the raccoons, and the groundhogs. We stay pretty busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I want you to tell us, if you can, ere the things in your childhood or things in previous to Peace Corps that led you up maybe to having an interest in joining the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up on a farm, so naturally I was close to the land and in nature. When I heard about the Peace Corps, my imagination told me I would be in a place where there would be lots of trees, lots of, lots of opportunities to be a part of nature, lots of opportunities to enjoy the fresh air and the water. So, yes, I would say growing up as a kid on a farm in a very rural area in Prince George's County, had something to do with my passion or my desire to become a Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you hear about the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.576863423865834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was, um, I was, I would say I was getting not bored, but I wanted to do something different than what I was doing. I wanted to get out of Rosaryville, get out of the state of Maryland, get out of Prince George's County. I didn't have any money. I wanted to do something different and something probably worthwhile. I think there was a lot more I could do to myself than just being a schoolteacher. So I would say that the adventure was there, the desire to help others, and not to get caught in the same rut that I saw so many of my brothers getting caught in or my neighbors getting caught in. I had to get away. And the Peace Corps sounded like the best way to do it because it wouldn't cost me the money. It was just disappearing all the challenges that I'd have to deal with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a specific project or country in mind when you joined or applied?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I didn't, but my last year in college I did write a paper on Nyasaland [now called Malawi]. And unbeknownst to me, when I was selected to the Peace Corps, I was sent to Nyasaland and it all dawned on me that I had been here before. I had seen this place before. I knew a lot about it. And it was because I had written this paper when I was a senior in college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I should just interject a note that the country that you went to serve in was called Nyasaland, and then it later became Malawi while you were there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just describe for me the process that you went through to apply for the Peace Corps and the time, like the time it took for you to hear a response, if you remember any of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.97429269318426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I didn't, but my last year in college I did write a paper on Nyasaland [now called Malawi]. And unbeknownst to me, when I was selected to the Peace Corps, I was sent to Nyasaland and it all dawned on me that I had been here before. I had seen this place before. I knew a lot about it. And it was because I had written this paper when I was a senior in college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I should just interject a note that the country that you went to serve in was called Nyasaland, and then it later became Malawi while you were there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just describe for me the process that you went through to apply for the Peace Corps and the time, like the time it took for you to hear a response, if you remember any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I recall I got the, I believe I got the application from a post office in Washington, D.C. I did not talk to anyone about it. I just simply filled out the application. I sent it in. And to my surprise, the Peace Corps got back to me within, within a month. And told me they had received my application and that I was eligible and there were certain things I had to do in order to get into the training. So basically it was just a question of filling out the application and responding, being responsive to the Peace Corps in Washington."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a specific country in mind? Did we?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.415880770204733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just describe for me the process that you went through to apply for the Peace Corps and the time, like the time it took for you to hear a response, if you remember any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I recall I got the, I believe I got the application from a post office in Washington, D.C. I did not talk to anyone about it. I just simply filled out the application. I sent it in. And to my surprise, the Peace Corps got back to me within, within a month. And told me they had received my application and that I was eligible and there were certain things I had to do in order to get into the training. So basically it was just a question of filling out the application and responding, being responsive to the Peace Corps in Washington."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a specific country in mind? Did we?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At this point, no. All I know, what I did have in mind was I wanted to go to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were your friends' or family's reactions when you told them you were going into the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.261363771078695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In terms of preparing the people close to me like my family and friends, there's nothing in particular that I did. I just simply explained to them what I was doing, what I planned to do, and the reason why I wanted to do it. And there was nothing to worry about. For myself personally, I, I had to prepare myself emotionally. I had to think outside of my little security box. Um, I talked to a couple of my former teachers about it, um, and develop a mindset of, Lawrence, this is, this is going to be something different. This is going to be a challenge, but you're up to it. You want to, you want to get out of here. You want to do something different. Here's an opportunity. That's about it really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Where did you go for training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My first training was in Camp Radley in Puerto Rico. Arecibo, Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we dug latrines. We did all types of swimming. We did trekking, we did canoeing, we did mountain climbing, we did rappelling. We did all those things I guess you might have to do if you're caught up in a rain forest someplace but no, no, with none of the resources you really need to survive. It was a survival type of training. We spent, I believe we spent a month, no, three weeks there, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was that helpful for being in Malawi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.845959745642995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My first training was in Camp Radley in Puerto Rico. Arecibo, Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we dug latrines. We did all types of swimming. We did trekking, we did canoeing, we did mountain climbing, we did rappelling. We did all those things I guess you might have to do if you're caught up in a rain forest someplace but no, no, with none of the resources you really need to survive. It was a survival type of training. We spent, I believe we spent a month, no, three weeks there, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was that helpful for being in Malawi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eh, not really. I could go to Malawi without that training. Although on a couple of occasions, because of some risk that I took when I was in Malawi, I think the drownproofing in the canoe and I think the mountain climbing probably, probably would have been useful if something had happened when I was taking these risks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. How long was that training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.273288606269995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we dug latrines. We did all types of swimming. We did trekking, we did canoeing, we did mountain climbing, we did rappelling. We did all those things I guess you might have to do if you're caught up in a rain forest someplace but no, no, with none of the resources you really need to survive. It was a survival type of training. We spent, I believe we spent a month, no, three weeks there, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was that helpful for being in Malawi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eh, not really. I could go to Malawi without that training. Although on a couple of occasions, because of some risk that I took when I was in Malawi, I think the drownproofing in the canoe and I think the mountain climbing probably, probably would have been useful if something had happened when I was taking these risks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. How long was that training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training in Puerto Rico, I believe, was, was 3 to 4 weeks. I can't recall correctly, but it was at least three weeks. No more than four weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then where did you go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.19254289585555, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eh, not really. I could go to Malawi without that training. Although on a couple of occasions, because of some risk that I took when I was in Malawi, I think the drownproofing in the canoe and I think the mountain climbing probably, probably would have been useful if something had happened when I was taking these risks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. How long was that training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training in Puerto Rico, I believe, was, was 3 to 4 weeks. I can't recall correctly, but it was at least three weeks. No more than four weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then where did you go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we went to Syracuse University for language training, African culture training. And I think we spent another 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 weeks there at University College, Syracuse University, in Syracuse, New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long was your total training? Do you have a remembrance of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.991714328728387, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training in Puerto Rico, I believe, was, was 3 to 4 weeks. I can't recall correctly, but it was at least three weeks. No more than four weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then where did you go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we went to Syracuse University for language training, African culture training. And I think we spent another 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 weeks there at University College, Syracuse University, in Syracuse, New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long was your total training? Do you have a remembrance of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The total training must have been at least at least two months, but no more than three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What was your reaction to the other people in your group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.879682587475985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we went to Syracuse University for language training, African culture training. And I think we spent another 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 weeks there at University College, Syracuse University, in Syracuse, New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long was your total training? Do you have a remembrance of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The total training must have been at least at least two months, but no more than three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What was your reaction to the other people in your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I'd never been around white people before, so to speak, except working for them. So I was pleasantly surprised to see how receptive they were, how responsive they were to some of the questions and needs that I had. I was also surprised at how naive a lot of the people were when it came to doing things like the physical things, like digging ditches and finding your way through the rainforest and that type of thing. Because I sort of grew up, grew up with that. Basically I was very, very comfortable with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is your ethnicity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.644091763862205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The total training must have been at least at least two months, but no more than three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What was your reaction to the other people in your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I'd never been around white people before, so to speak, except working for them. So I was pleasantly surprised to see how receptive they were, how responsive they were to some of the questions and needs that I had. I was also surprised at how naive a lot of the people were when it came to doing things like the physical things, like digging ditches and finding your way through the rainforest and that type of thing. Because I sort of grew up, grew up with that. Basically I was very, very comfortable with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is your ethnicity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm African American. In those days I was called Black or colored really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you feel, kind of looking back, do you feel that your Peace Corps training on a whole was useful to you in the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.251827742827489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. We did not learn. Those of us who were selected were not told why people were deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the criteria for selection in or selection out? What went on? Or was there anything that went on or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had interviews, I guess psychological interviews. You know, we had to, to learn about the culture of the country that we were going to. They'd watch how we interact with, with, with other people. Um, I think the main requirement was, although they didn't tell us, was their observations of us and how we, how we dealt with people with whom we were not really familiar with. How we dealt with learning the language, how we dealt with learning about the culture. There was no like, you have to do one, two, three, four, five in order to be selected into the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never knew for sure exactly what the criteria was. All we knew was what their training requirements were. But we were never given any examinations in the language or any of the other subjects that we took. I think the main selection requirements were that we had to be psychologically and physically up to par, up to the standards that they had created, and we didn't know what those standards were.\n\nAnd it's probably a good thing we didn't know what they were because then, then I think we would have been concentrating on meeting the requirements. And I think a lot of the other, other intangibles that we got from being with each other would have been lost because we would have been concentrating on the training requirements. Intangibles such as building close relationships, intangibles like showing, showing, feeling that you're being cared for by somebody else. And the non- competition, I think, helped a lot. People wanted to see others succeed. People wanted to see others get selected and not deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. How diverse was your program and what was the makeup of that diversity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.502030825363876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had interviews, I guess psychological interviews. You know, we had to, to learn about the culture of the country that we were going to. They'd watch how we interact with, with, with other people. Um, I think the main requirement was, although they didn't tell us, was their observations of us and how we, how we dealt with people with whom we were not really familiar with. How we dealt with learning the language, how we dealt with learning about the culture. There was no like, you have to do one, two, three, four, five in order to be selected into the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never knew for sure exactly what the criteria was. All we knew was what their training requirements were. But we were never given any examinations in the language or any of the other subjects that we took. I think the main selection requirements were that we had to be psychologically and physically up to par, up to the standards that they had created, and we didn't know what those standards were.\n\nAnd it's probably a good thing we didn't know what they were because then, then I think we would have been concentrating on meeting the requirements. And I think a lot of the other, other intangibles that we got from being with each other would have been lost because we would have been concentrating on the training requirements. Intangibles such as building close relationships, intangibles like showing, showing, feeling that you're being cared for by somebody else. And the non- competition, I think, helped a lot. People wanted to see others succeed. People wanted to see others get selected and not deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. How diverse was your program and what was the makeup of that diversity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean in my training? Or once I got to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your group that went to Malawi."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.668923139293195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never knew for sure exactly what the criteria was. All we knew was what their training requirements were. But we were never given any examinations in the language or any of the other subjects that we took. I think the main selection requirements were that we had to be psychologically and physically up to par, up to the standards that they had created, and we didn't know what those standards were.\n\nAnd it's probably a good thing we didn't know what they were because then, then I think we would have been concentrating on meeting the requirements. And I think a lot of the other, other intangibles that we got from being with each other would have been lost because we would have been concentrating on the training requirements. Intangibles such as building close relationships, intangibles like showing, showing, feeling that you're being cared for by somebody else. And the non- competition, I think, helped a lot. People wanted to see others succeed. People wanted to see others get selected and not deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. How diverse was your program and what was the makeup of that diversity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean in my training? Or once I got to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your group that went to Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The group that went to Malawi, I think we had maybe three African Americans. I was one out of three. We had no more than four. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe we had, maybe we had five out of, five out of 40. Five out of 40, something like that. Very few African Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That went to Malawi."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.965470154770216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean in my training? Or once I got to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your group that went to Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The group that went to Malawi, I think we had maybe three African Americans. I was one out of three. We had no more than four. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe we had, maybe we had five out of, five out of 40. Five out of 40, something like that. Very few African Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That went to Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could be wrong there with the numbers, but there weren't many of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. Now, some time, you had some time before you, uh, when you finished training and before you went over? Was there a break in there at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.07274461641135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The group that went to Malawi, I think we had maybe three African Americans. I was one out of three. We had no more than four. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe we had, maybe we had five out of, five out of 40. Five out of 40, something like that. Very few African Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That went to Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could be wrong there with the numbers, but there weren't many of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. Now, some time, you had some time before you, uh, when you finished training and before you went over? Was there a break in there at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes. Yes, there was. In fact, I invited the African teacher at Syracuse who taught us language down to my parents' home to stay with us. I think he stayed with us for about a week till I wanted him to see what it was like to be in an American home. And not just an American, in an American home, but in an African American home. So he actually came down and stayed with us. And my parents were nice enough, said he could. I believe if I recall correctly, he stayed with us for about a week. Now, this was after, after I believe I was selected into the Peace Corps. I knew I was going there and I wanted this African teacher to experience this before we went back to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I haven't touched on, but I wanted to ask you about the staff of the training. Are there any, this teacher obviously was someone you connected with and you wanted to invite. You also just very generous. Were there other staff members that you remembered or that you connected with or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.080827351568168, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could be wrong there with the numbers, but there weren't many of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. Now, some time, you had some time before you, uh, when you finished training and before you went over? Was there a break in there at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes. Yes, there was. In fact, I invited the African teacher at Syracuse who taught us language down to my parents' home to stay with us. I think he stayed with us for about a week till I wanted him to see what it was like to be in an American home. And not just an American, in an American home, but in an African American home. So he actually came down and stayed with us. And my parents were nice enough, said he could. I believe if I recall correctly, he stayed with us for about a week. Now, this was after, after I believe I was selected into the Peace Corps. I knew I was going there and I wanted this African teacher to experience this before we went back to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I haven't touched on, but I wanted to ask you about the staff of the training. Are there any, this teacher obviously was someone you connected with and you wanted to invite. You also just very generous. Were there other staff members that you remembered or that you connected with or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a female Caucasian teacher or professor at Syracuse, I can't recall her name, who taught African culture whatever, Malawian culture, what have you. I was very impressed with her. But other than that, I was not particularly impressed or unimpressed. They were just people who were instructors. But this African instructor stood out because I thought he did a very, very good job in teaching the language. And he was, he was also very much a human being. Yeah, he was very easy to talk to. He was very friendly, full of smiles all the time. And he just sort of reached out to us and I was impressed with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was a Malawian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.210897964898972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a female Caucasian teacher or professor at Syracuse, I can't recall her name, who taught African culture whatever, Malawian culture, what have you. I was very impressed with her. But other than that, I was not particularly impressed or unimpressed. They were just people who were instructors. But this African instructor stood out because I thought he did a very, very good job in teaching the language. And he was, he was also very much a human being. Yeah, he was very easy to talk to. He was very friendly, full of smiles all the time. And he just sort of reached out to us and I was impressed with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was a Malawian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a Malawian, yeah. Nyasan then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I thought it would be good for him to experience an African American family and my family to experience him because it was an opportunity I knew that my family would not get for a long time to come. And I don't know, maybe he wouldn't have either. But I know my family were very, very appreciative that I did that. And it was, it was quite an experience for my little nieces and nephews as well as my mother and father."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure they still remember it to this day. Okay. Now you've made the trip to Malawi, to Nyasaland. What was your entry like? What are your first impressions?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.032781844854558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My first impression was the weather was hot and I'm in a real strange place here. These people, these women walking around with these big baskets on their heads full of veggies or full of wood. And I'm not seeing the paved roads and what have you. I really felt like I was in a very strange place, um, but I wasn't scared, you know. I also, I guess, I guess I got a sense of security, of comfort because by being, by being, um, having grown up on a farm and having lived in difficult situations, um, that although it was all strange to me, I figured I could fit in and I could do what I was supposed to do and, and help the people that I was there to help.\n\nI think if I hadn't had that rural upbringing out in the country, that I would have been, and have not, have not been around African Americans all my life, it probably would have been different. But the fact that most of the people I saw were African American in itself was a good feeling to me because I never had that feeling before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were Africans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Africans, right. Um, because I never had that feeling before. Because the whole time I was growing up and for the most part, you know, I was around white people except when I was in my own community or in my own high school going to college. So here I was all of a sudden thrown in with all of these Black people and my God, what a, what a strange, what a good feeling that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Did you have any training when you got into the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I. If we had any training, I can't recall what it was. It seemed to me we, we got there. We went to Soche Hill College for something. I can't quite remember what it was, but it didn't last very long. I can't even remember the training. Orientation or something like that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don't remember any speakers or anybody?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.480868716505064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Africans, right. Um, because I never had that feeling before. Because the whole time I was growing up and for the most part, you know, I was around white people except when I was in my own community or in my own high school going to college. So here I was all of a sudden thrown in with all of these Black people and my God, what a, what a strange, what a good feeling that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Did you have any training when you got into the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I. If we had any training, I can't recall what it was. It seemed to me we, we got there. We went to Soche Hill College for something. I can't quite remember what it was, but it didn't last very long. I can't even remember the training. Orientation or something like that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don't remember any speakers or anybody?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I can't remember any speakers, anybody like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, uh, what was your reaction to staff, Peace Corps staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.86763190722785, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I. If we had any training, I can't recall what it was. It seemed to me we, we got there. We went to Soche Hill College for something. I can't quite remember what it was, but it didn't last very long. I can't even remember the training. Orientation or something like that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don't remember any speakers or anybody?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I can't remember any speakers, anybody like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, uh, what was your reaction to staff, Peace Corps staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I thought the staff were very friendly, very concerned about helping us, very concerned that we got started on the right foot, and that we had the resources that we needed to get the job done. And that we, we understood that we were in a different culture, we're in a different country. And things were not the way they were back in America and we needed to act accordingly. And I think those were the types of things they, they, they in their own way, you know, let us know that here you are. You're in a different place and you're going to have to act a little bit differently because you're, you're someplace that's quite different from America. And people might expect different things from you than what they expected in America. And you have to act accordingly. You have to live according, not act. You have to live accordingly.\n\nSo I thought the staff was very, very well trained. And they got their verbal training in getting the message over to us as New Peace Corps volunteers. And also to show that they want to help us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you were group three coming to Malawi. What was your reaction to other volunteers who were already there? They'd been there a year."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.408479896919832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I can't remember any speakers, anybody like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, uh, what was your reaction to staff, Peace Corps staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I thought the staff were very friendly, very concerned about helping us, very concerned that we got started on the right foot, and that we had the resources that we needed to get the job done. And that we, we understood that we were in a different culture, we're in a different country. And things were not the way they were back in America and we needed to act accordingly. And I think those were the types of things they, they, they in their own way, you know, let us know that here you are. You're in a different place and you're going to have to act a little bit differently because you're, you're someplace that's quite different from America. And people might expect different things from you than what they expected in America. And you have to act accordingly. You have to live according, not act. You have to live accordingly.\n\nSo I thought the staff was very, very well trained. And they got their verbal training in getting the message over to us as New Peace Corps volunteers. And also to show that they want to help us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you were group three coming to Malawi. What was your reaction to other volunteers who were already there? They'd been there a year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My reaction was to get to them as soon as possible and find out as much as I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way? What do you mean by that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.120533218799814, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I thought the staff were very friendly, very concerned about helping us, very concerned that we got started on the right foot, and that we had the resources that we needed to get the job done. And that we, we understood that we were in a different culture, we're in a different country. And things were not the way they were back in America and we needed to act accordingly. And I think those were the types of things they, they, they in their own way, you know, let us know that here you are. You're in a different place and you're going to have to act a little bit differently because you're, you're someplace that's quite different from America. And people might expect different things from you than what they expected in America. And you have to act accordingly. You have to live according, not act. You have to live accordingly.\n\nSo I thought the staff was very, very well trained. And they got their verbal training in getting the message over to us as New Peace Corps volunteers. And also to show that they want to help us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you were group three coming to Malawi. What was your reaction to other volunteers who were already there? They'd been there a year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My reaction was to get to them as soon as possible and find out as much as I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way? What do you mean by that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, how do you, how do you deal with certain types of situations? For instance, you went out to a village. How did you react if somebody offered you some food or if you went out to a social gathering like a dance or something? You know what, what did you do? What could we expect from the Africans? Or if you went to a shop to buy something, go to the market, you know, what could you expect from the people doing the selling and what how do you deal with the people who beg from me? Because I already had already experienced that. Um, and what do you do when people want to come to work for you? Like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you already experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 21.13646076395039, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, how do you, how do you deal with certain types of situations? For instance, you went out to a village. How did you react if somebody offered you some food or if you went out to a social gathering like a dance or something? You know what, what did you do? What could we expect from the Africans? Or if you went to a shop to buy something, go to the market, you know, what could you expect from the people doing the selling and what how do you deal with the people who beg from me? Because I already had already experienced that. Um, and what do you do when people want to come to work for you? Like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you already experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, people asking for money on the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Begging."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, begging. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, what's the most important thing you can tell me? Yeah, I'm a new volunteer. You've been here for a while. What, what? What's the most important thing that I should know at this point?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did, you had some language training. Did that play a significant role in your life? Where were you? Where were you stationed and what were you doing? And then did the language play a significant role in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.674237944673724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, that means that they're, that they're mixed race. Um, chances are the mother or father was white and the, and the, the other mother. The father was white or the mother was white and vice versa and into intermingled with the Africans. So you had the coloureds which looked very much like me. They weren't really black, they weren't white, but they were, they were a brown skinned type of person, just like I am. And they were like, like the African, the pure Africans from, from what they were telling me and the way they reacted to them were like, they were. They were class wise, the coloureds were like a cut above the real Africans and just below the Europeans. So the coloureds were like caught between the Africans and the Europeans and like caught between a rock and a hard place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The coloureds could also be a mixture between African and Asian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anybody mixing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Coloureds were the mixed race people, but they're normally mixed race with a lighter, lighter colored, lighter skinned people. That's why they were brown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The physical environment that you were in, what, um, what was that like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.638042160748583, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anybody mixing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Coloureds were the mixed race people, but they're normally mixed race with a lighter, lighter colored, lighter skinned people. That's why they were brown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The physical environment that you were in, what, um, what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical? You mean the natural or the buildings or what?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, all of your environment where you lived."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.37560240083176, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Coloureds were the mixed race people, but they're normally mixed race with a lighter, lighter colored, lighter skinned people. That's why they were brown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The physical environment that you were in, what, um, what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical? You mean the natural or the buildings or what?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, all of your environment where you lived."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived in a wonderful house. You know, we had, we had bathrooms, we had mosquito nets, we had fireplaces, we had gas stoves. We had everything except the telephone and a, and a TV. We had the cooks and we had the gardens and all of that. And in fact, my physical situation, the manmade physical situation in Malawi, was probably better than the physical situation I had back at home before I left. Um, the natural physical situation consisted of green trees, green grass. You know, the rainy season, the dry season, the Chiperoni season, which was this season that was kind of cool and kind of kind of wet. To me, it was just perfect.\n\nI enjoyed the, the natural environment and I enjoyed the physical environment, I mean, the, the environment in the household. I think I felt kind of guilty because I wasn't used to having a cook and a gardener and that type of thing. Someone to make my bed, someone to set up the mosquito net, someone to ask me what I wanted for breakfast. That was just not my cup of tea. It took me a long time to get used to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your, um, did your assignments change your living conditions? Anything change over your two years? You were there just two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.306224889813066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical? You mean the natural or the buildings or what?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, all of your environment where you lived."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived in a wonderful house. You know, we had, we had bathrooms, we had mosquito nets, we had fireplaces, we had gas stoves. We had everything except the telephone and a, and a TV. We had the cooks and we had the gardens and all of that. And in fact, my physical situation, the manmade physical situation in Malawi, was probably better than the physical situation I had back at home before I left. Um, the natural physical situation consisted of green trees, green grass. You know, the rainy season, the dry season, the Chiperoni season, which was this season that was kind of cool and kind of kind of wet. To me, it was just perfect.\n\nI enjoyed the, the natural environment and I enjoyed the physical environment, I mean, the, the environment in the household. I think I felt kind of guilty because I wasn't used to having a cook and a gardener and that type of thing. Someone to make my bed, someone to set up the mosquito net, someone to ask me what I wanted for breakfast. That was just not my cup of tea. It took me a long time to get used to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your, um, did your assignments change your living conditions? Anything change over your two years? You were there just two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did it change at all during the two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.451360988681184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived in a wonderful house. You know, we had, we had bathrooms, we had mosquito nets, we had fireplaces, we had gas stoves. We had everything except the telephone and a, and a TV. We had the cooks and we had the gardens and all of that. And in fact, my physical situation, the manmade physical situation in Malawi, was probably better than the physical situation I had back at home before I left. Um, the natural physical situation consisted of green trees, green grass. You know, the rainy season, the dry season, the Chiperoni season, which was this season that was kind of cool and kind of kind of wet. To me, it was just perfect.\n\nI enjoyed the, the natural environment and I enjoyed the physical environment, I mean, the, the environment in the household. I think I felt kind of guilty because I wasn't used to having a cook and a gardener and that type of thing. Someone to make my bed, someone to set up the mosquito net, someone to ask me what I wanted for breakfast. That was just not my cup of tea. It took me a long time to get used to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your, um, did your assignments change your living conditions? Anything change over your two years? You were there just two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did it change at all during the two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah.\n\nI moved from one house to a bigger house, but basically I still had all the amenities that most volunteers didn't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you alone in these houses?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.72373443186798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did it change at all during the two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah.\n\nI moved from one house to a bigger house, but basically I still had all the amenities that most volunteers didn't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you alone in these houses?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. At first I lived with two other people. An older guy who was about 75 years old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.69303825763109, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah.\n\nI moved from one house to a bigger house, but basically I still had all the amenities that most volunteers didn't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you alone in these houses?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. At first I lived with two other people. An older guy who was about 75 years old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was a volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, his name was Mac. And then another guy by the name Terry Seno, who was around my age I guess, maybe a little bit older. We lived there for about a year. Then we moved to Soche. We called it Harmony House, it was an old governor's house, huge house. And there we had, there was like 6 or 7 of us living in that house and another house close by. So it was like a communal type situation. And we all ate together. We had parties. And it was, it was a very, I thought, a very, very nice environment. You know, they had that little differences, but nothing significant. That's my last year, I spent living in what we called Harmony House because we used to get in a few arguments, but nothing serious. But it was, it was a nice environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you weren't teaching, were you involved in any projects?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.36613364770122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was very, very fortunate. I did not have any health problems whatsoever. I can't think of one time that I was sick. I really, I never had a stomach ache or headache or anything. I was very, very fortunate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you travel to any other parts of the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to, I went to some of the Portuguese territories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But outside?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Outside?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Inside Malawi. Did you do any traveling?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.958189688520019, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Outside?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Inside Malawi. Did you do any traveling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went down to the southern part to the cape and that cape down with Carl, Carl White was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Port Harold?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Port Harold. Went up to Mlanje [now called Mulanje] where Linda Millette was. I went to Cape Maclear, which is up on Lake Malawi, on Lake Nyasa, for any number of occasions, just to relax on the, on the, on the lake. And I went out to some of the villages up in the rainforest. I did traveling when I had the opportunity to, to do so. Um, went out to the tea estates, the tea plantations. I went out to the Chari River and went across a rickety crane seat one time. Um, so yeah, I did quite a bit of traveling inside of Malawi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, did you have any experiences where you would say that you observed discrimination?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.842432987244466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went down to the southern part to the cape and that cape down with Carl, Carl White was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Port Harold?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Port Harold. Went up to Mlanje [now called Mulanje] where Linda Millette was. I went to Cape Maclear, which is up on Lake Malawi, on Lake Nyasa, for any number of occasions, just to relax on the, on the, on the lake. And I went out to some of the villages up in the rainforest. I did traveling when I had the opportunity to, to do so. Um, went out to the tea estates, the tea plantations. I went out to the Chari River and went across a rickety crane seat one time. Um, so yeah, I did quite a bit of traveling inside of Malawi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, did you have any experiences where you would say that you observed discrimination?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I think, um. I don't think I really saw any overt type of discrimination, but I could feel a certain type of institutional discrimination, say, from the, uh, from the Blacks towards the coloureds and from the coloureds towards the Blacks, and from the Europeans towards the Africans. I got the impression by talking and being around some of the Europeans, they felt themselves to be very superior. Um, and they also like wanted myself not to think too much out of the Black Africans because, because they probably didn't have much, much to offer. None would ever told me that. But it's a type of institutional type of racism that we oftentimes have in this country here, that I could sense that. And, you know, and I'm not saying that was a fact, but I felt that way. I did not outright observe any type of racism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're feeling that way, did it hinder anything that you might have done or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.82492554138274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Port Harold. Went up to Mlanje [now called Mulanje] where Linda Millette was. I went to Cape Maclear, which is up on Lake Malawi, on Lake Nyasa, for any number of occasions, just to relax on the, on the, on the lake. And I went out to some of the villages up in the rainforest. I did traveling when I had the opportunity to, to do so. Um, went out to the tea estates, the tea plantations. I went out to the Chari River and went across a rickety crane seat one time. Um, so yeah, I did quite a bit of traveling inside of Malawi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, did you have any experiences where you would say that you observed discrimination?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I think, um. I don't think I really saw any overt type of discrimination, but I could feel a certain type of institutional discrimination, say, from the, uh, from the Blacks towards the coloureds and from the coloureds towards the Blacks, and from the Europeans towards the Africans. I got the impression by talking and being around some of the Europeans, they felt themselves to be very superior. Um, and they also like wanted myself not to think too much out of the Black Africans because, because they probably didn't have much, much to offer. None would ever told me that. But it's a type of institutional type of racism that we oftentimes have in this country here, that I could sense that. And, you know, and I'm not saying that was a fact, but I felt that way. I did not outright observe any type of racism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're feeling that way, did it hinder anything that you might have done or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. It, it did not hinder anything that I wanted to do because I felt if I want to be a good Peace Corps volunteer and provide the services I was sent there to provide, that I couldn't let something like that into my mindset. That couldn't be a factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, during the time you were there, I think Nyasaland changed to Malawi."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.916583934869712, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I think, um. I don't think I really saw any overt type of discrimination, but I could feel a certain type of institutional discrimination, say, from the, uh, from the Blacks towards the coloureds and from the coloureds towards the Blacks, and from the Europeans towards the Africans. I got the impression by talking and being around some of the Europeans, they felt themselves to be very superior. Um, and they also like wanted myself not to think too much out of the Black Africans because, because they probably didn't have much, much to offer. None would ever told me that. But it's a type of institutional type of racism that we oftentimes have in this country here, that I could sense that. And, you know, and I'm not saying that was a fact, but I felt that way. I did not outright observe any type of racism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you're feeling that way, did it hinder anything that you might have done or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. It, it did not hinder anything that I wanted to do because I felt if I want to be a good Peace Corps volunteer and provide the services I was sent there to provide, that I couldn't let something like that into my mindset. That couldn't be a factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, during the time you were there, I think Nyasaland changed to Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had independence."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.12953770541079, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. It, it did not hinder anything that I wanted to do because I felt if I want to be a good Peace Corps volunteer and provide the services I was sent there to provide, that I couldn't let something like that into my mindset. That couldn't be a factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, during the time you were there, I think Nyasaland changed to Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had independence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any memories around any of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.629058895568877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any memories around any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember being at the stadium and listened to Kawazu talking along with his little, little thing you switched back with?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible] Yeah. And how happy, you know, my students were and what have you. And but I also remember right after the independence, I had some really bright students. I believe there were four of them who just disappeared afterwards. And I think primarily because these were very, very bright students and they're very independent thinkers and they would oftentimes say things contrary to the I think it was the Malawi Congress Party. And they disappeared. I never heard or saw them again, saw them again. And would, I would ask other students about them. The other students would never say anything as if they were afraid to say anything. So when you asked me about independence in Malawi, that's what I remember the most. Those four bright students disappeared and I never saw them again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came to the end of your tour, first of all, do you have, do you remember any funny stories or anything that stands out in your mind with your time in Malawi? Anything else you want to add before we leave?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.032287661743196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember being at the stadium and listened to Kawazu talking along with his little, little thing you switched back with?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible] Yeah. And how happy, you know, my students were and what have you. And but I also remember right after the independence, I had some really bright students. I believe there were four of them who just disappeared afterwards. And I think primarily because these were very, very bright students and they're very independent thinkers and they would oftentimes say things contrary to the I think it was the Malawi Congress Party. And they disappeared. I never heard or saw them again, saw them again. And would, I would ask other students about them. The other students would never say anything as if they were afraid to say anything. So when you asked me about independence in Malawi, that's what I remember the most. Those four bright students disappeared and I never saw them again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came to the end of your tour, first of all, do you have, do you remember any funny stories or anything that stands out in your mind with your time in Malawi? Anything else you want to add before we leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, other than the Africans telling me that I've been away from home for so long that I forgot my, my language, um, you know, I mean, I had, I had a good time. I mean, I can't. I had so many types of fun situations until I can't just pick out one to say this is what's really defined the situation. I mean, I remember a time when a couple of the female volunteers brought their motorbikes out to Harmony House where we all lived, and they didn't quite know how to ride them and they got on the bikes, was going to show us, I guess, what they could do. And the bike took off and left them sitting on the ground. Those types of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So volunteers had motorbikes?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.591430735270217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible] Yeah. And how happy, you know, my students were and what have you. And but I also remember right after the independence, I had some really bright students. I believe there were four of them who just disappeared afterwards. And I think primarily because these were very, very bright students and they're very independent thinkers and they would oftentimes say things contrary to the I think it was the Malawi Congress Party. And they disappeared. I never heard or saw them again, saw them again. And would, I would ask other students about them. The other students would never say anything as if they were afraid to say anything. So when you asked me about independence in Malawi, that's what I remember the most. Those four bright students disappeared and I never saw them again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came to the end of your tour, first of all, do you have, do you remember any funny stories or anything that stands out in your mind with your time in Malawi? Anything else you want to add before we leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, other than the Africans telling me that I've been away from home for so long that I forgot my, my language, um, you know, I mean, I had, I had a good time. I mean, I can't. I had so many types of fun situations until I can't just pick out one to say this is what's really defined the situation. I mean, I remember a time when a couple of the female volunteers brought their motorbikes out to Harmony House where we all lived, and they didn't quite know how to ride them and they got on the bikes, was going to show us, I guess, what they could do. And the bike took off and left them sitting on the ground. Those types of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So volunteers had motorbikes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of the volunteers who lived, say, way out in the rainforest and in very desolate areas and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the bush?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.32381192807802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, other than the Africans telling me that I've been away from home for so long that I forgot my, my language, um, you know, I mean, I had, I had a good time. I mean, I can't. I had so many types of fun situations until I can't just pick out one to say this is what's really defined the situation. I mean, I remember a time when a couple of the female volunteers brought their motorbikes out to Harmony House where we all lived, and they didn't quite know how to ride them and they got on the bikes, was going to show us, I guess, what they could do. And the bike took off and left them sitting on the ground. Those types of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So volunteers had motorbikes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of the volunteers who lived, say, way out in the rainforest and in very desolate areas and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the bush?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the bush, that's what, you can call it that. They had to have those bikes in order to get back and forth, to buy food and that type of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a car or a vehicle of any kind?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.248679920086687, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of the volunteers who lived, say, way out in the rainforest and in very desolate areas and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the bush?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the bush, that's what, you can call it that. They had to have those bikes in order to get back and forth, to buy food and that type of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a car or a vehicle of any kind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but whenever we needed a car or I needed a car, I could always rent one. Or I had, I had a Portuguese buddy who would loan me his car. So transportation was very seldom a problem for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about some of the relationships you formed while you were there, with the people of Malawi. You've mentioned the Portuguese."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.294666568008257, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but whenever we needed a car or I needed a car, I could always rent one. Or I had, I had a Portuguese buddy who would loan me his car. So transportation was very seldom a problem for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about some of the relationships you formed while you were there, with the people of Malawi. You've mentioned the Portuguese."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the closest, the closest relationship that I formed with had to do with the African coloureds and the Portuguese people. I met a Portuguese family and his name was Jim, and we started to like each other right away. Jim had a car, so Jim used to come to visit me a lot and I'd go to visit him. He would loan me his car. We'd go out socially. I'd go to his house and he'd come over to Harmony House sometime. Um, I met some African coloureds, I mean, who seemed to have a lot, I seemed to have a lot in common with. And we would go out socially. They would come, come to, come to our house. I would go to visit them and their and their families.\n\nI met some Africans. I intermingled with a lot of the Africans. Also, I would go out to some of the villages and look at and meet their, their, their families. Um, I would say that, that, that my, my social life in Malawi in terms of intermingling with the indigenous people was very good. I, I never once got homesick. I always felt, when I was there, I always felt at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not like at home here, but I felt that I was around people who cared about me and they certainly knew I cared about them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you, uh, after you left Malawi, did you have any regrets or did that feelings of dissatisfaction or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.534584104740564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure. When I left, I was eventually drafted into the Army not too long after I left, about seven or eight months after I left. And I went to Frankfurt, Germany. And I had known that some of my senior students would get scholarships to Pitman's College in London. And sure enough, when I got to Frankfurt, because I did keep in touch with these students, I discovered that they, too, had been, they had gone to England and they were in in London attending school at Pitman's College, and as well as a couple of the African instructors. So we used to see each other on a pretty regular basis while I was in Germany for about a year there. So I kept in very, very close contact with them during that period. Once I left the Army, you know, the contact became almost, almost nil, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um. Did you have, did you make plans for leaving the country and making your reentry into this country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I worked very hard at that one. So very bad to go to graduate school. So before I even left the country, I knew I had been accepted at Columbia University Teachers College. So in fact, when I came back, before I even went home, I went to New York and had interviews at Columbia to, to make sure that my confirmation of entry into that university was, was okay. So, yeah, when I got back to the States, I knew exactly what I was going to do. It was all set."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you travel to get back to the United States or did you just go right home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we traveled. I went to Greece. I went to, I went to Athens. I went to, where?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you take when you were traveling?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.413066795976004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we traveled. I went to Greece. I went to, I went to Athens. I went to, where?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you take when you were traveling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We took about two weeks to get back. Two and a half, three weeks to get back. I didn't do extensive traveling, but we went to, David Thurston and Mack and I went to several different places."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find reentry into back into this culture?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.458963106640002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We took about two weeks to get back. Two and a half, three weeks to get back. I didn't do extensive traveling, but we went to, David Thurston and Mack and I went to several different places."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find reentry into back into this culture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I found it very strange because I thought people would be very interested in knowing and learning about all the things that I did and what have you. And what I discovered was, you know, they could, they couldn't care less. They didn't care about anything, including, including to a certain extent my own immediate family. You know, they were really preoccupied with their own lives and they couldn't really relate to a lot of the things that I was trying to explain to them and tell them about. It was, it was just too much. They could, they couldn't relate that to, to any of their own life experiences.\n\nSo, so my reentry was more of a culture shock than going to Malawi. The biggest culture shock I had was coming back to the United States, getting on a subway train in New York City, and trying to get up to Columbia University. That was culture shock because I just thought people were so rude, you know, they wouldn't even let me off the train. And, you know, I was probably wrong and blaming them and everything. But, but to me, in Malawi people were so kind and so friendly. And all of a sudden I'm among these people who just didn't seem to care about anything except for themselves and what they wanted. And that was a real culture shock because I was away from that for two years. Plus, I'd never been in New York City anyway. So yeah, and that was a huge culture shock and it took me a while to get over that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Evaluate your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps, your service and your life afterward. Um. The three goals were to provide technical assistance to the people of Malawi. And I think you felt you did, did that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.732181229600002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find reentry into back into this culture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I found it very strange because I thought people would be very interested in knowing and learning about all the things that I did and what have you. And what I discovered was, you know, they could, they couldn't care less. They didn't care about anything, including, including to a certain extent my own immediate family. You know, they were really preoccupied with their own lives and they couldn't really relate to a lot of the things that I was trying to explain to them and tell them about. It was, it was just too much. They could, they couldn't relate that to, to any of their own life experiences.\n\nSo, so my reentry was more of a culture shock than going to Malawi. The biggest culture shock I had was coming back to the United States, getting on a subway train in New York City, and trying to get up to Columbia University. That was culture shock because I just thought people were so rude, you know, they wouldn't even let me off the train. And, you know, I was probably wrong and blaming them and everything. But, but to me, in Malawi people were so kind and so friendly. And all of a sudden I'm among these people who just didn't seem to care about anything except for themselves and what they wanted. And that was a real culture shock because I was away from that for two years. Plus, I'd never been in New York City anyway. So yeah, and that was a huge culture shock and it took me a while to get over that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Evaluate your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps, your service and your life afterward. Um. The three goals were to provide technical assistance to the people of Malawi. And I think you felt you did, did that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I believe I provided the business technical assistance as well as helping the handicapped people to get some jobs and careers that otherwise wouldn't, wouldn't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The second goal was to promote a better understanding back here of Americans of, of that, of Malawi."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.95331016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I believe I provided the business technical assistance as well as helping the handicapped people to get some jobs and careers that otherwise wouldn't, wouldn't have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The second goal was to promote a better understanding back here of Americans of, of that, of Malawi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you feel that, did you, did you have opportunities to do that? I've heard you, you know, people, which was my own experience, weren't really that interested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. One of my greatest challenges throughout the whole time I was there was trying to explain the American Black situation in America versus the American white situation in America. The Africans never distinguished between white Americans and Black Americans. They couldn't understand, you know, they thought we all were rich and all we had to do was. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were explaining that you, the Africans, couldn't keep straight. You were explaining to the Africans about, and the coloureds about the differences between American white and Black. They all thought we were all wealthy and whatnot."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 29.9481224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you feel that, did you, did you have opportunities to do that? I've heard you, you know, people, which was my own experience, weren't really that interested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. One of my greatest challenges throughout the whole time I was there was trying to explain the American Black situation in America versus the American white situation in America. The Africans never distinguished between white Americans and Black Americans. They couldn't understand, you know, they thought we all were rich and all we had to do was. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were explaining that you, the Africans, couldn't keep straight. You were explaining to the Africans about, and the coloureds about the differences between American white and Black. They all thought we were all wealthy and whatnot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, and then what about when you came home? Were you able to help educate Americans about Malawians?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 29, "return_to_go": 34.184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. Once, once I left, the only involvement, it's been, it's been peripheral. And that we have some, we have a Peace Corps, a lot of Peace Corps volunteers at the U.S. Department of Education where I work. And we get together from time to time just to reminisce and to be recognized by the Secretary of Education. But I sort of left, when I left Africa, left Malawi, that was a chapter in my life I left behind. I learned a lot from it. I became a much better person. But I knew I wanted to go ahead and do other things. And if I dwelled upon some of the experiences I had there, it would probably interfere with the new things that I wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, did you ever hear of the Friends of Malawi? Were you ever?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, I mean, my, my wife is a very prominent, was a very prominent member of the Friends of Malawi. So I learned about what was going on in Malawi. In fact, I still do, despite the fact I've not been involved in a very close manner. And I'm still concerned about Malawi. And I read about them in the newspaper. Never a friend of mine. In fact, I have a friend who just left there. When I learned they were going there, I like to talk to them and, you know, tell them things, some of the things that they might expect based upon what I'm hearing these days and based upon the experiences I had years ago. So. So you might say I'm out of touch, but yet I'm still in touch, but not as closely as I had been before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about regular, just Peace Corps involvement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't really get that much involved in the Peace Corps and what they're doing, except what I read in the newspaper and what I, what I hear over TV or radio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Describe now your life since you left Peace Corps, since you left Malawi? In summary, highlighting."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00206:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. But it has been a bit of a roller coaster, but I've learned a lot about myself and learned a lot about people that otherwise probably wouldn't have learned if it had not been for the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you, Lawrence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No charge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For your interview, for doing this. Do you have any other thoughts before we close off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would just recommend any, any young person fresh out of college and who don't quite know what to do with themselves to at least take a look at what the Peace Corps offers and what you can give to the Peace Corps, because I think the travel and getting out and seeing other places and other people really, really helps to create a better human being within your, within yourself. I think travel is just, just wonderful and meeting people who are different than yourself, especially a different culture, who sees life differently, is one of the best things that anybody can do for themselves. Especially if you're an American, because you can so easily grow up in this country and never have to experience any of that. And I think you've missed something if you don't experience that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you, honey."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.062604688866085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good morning Fynnette"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By way of introduction could you please give us your name and your terms of service to the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Meyer Fishbein. From December 1940 to December 1980 with a break of 3 years, in the Army and about 9 months or so working on Bank records in New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fascinating. I am going to have to ask about the bank records in a little while, but, so you served 40 years at the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost to the date."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is your educational background and how did it prepare you or not for a career in the Federal Government?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.291782987628983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Meyer Fishbein. From December 1940 to December 1980 with a break of 3 years, in the Army and about 9 months or so working on Bank records in New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fascinating. I am going to have to ask about the bank records in a little while, but, so you served 40 years at the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost to the date."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is your educational background and how did it prepare you or not for a career in the Federal Government?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is one of the oddities. I was educationally unqualified for practically every position I had. It's a whole set of circumstances. I came to the Archives I had about39 hours in night school. It was interrupted when I got a job in the laundry. I started working 70 hours a week literally six days so I could not go to Night School, so I was considered unqualified practically anything, and that continued even beyond the M.A."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is interesting, but yet it did not stop you from moving up and doing all the variety of things you did."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.657536652921092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost to the date."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is your educational background and how did it prepare you or not for a career in the Federal Government?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is one of the oddities. I was educationally unqualified for practically every position I had. It's a whole set of circumstances. I came to the Archives I had about39 hours in night school. It was interrupted when I got a job in the laundry. I started working 70 hours a week literally six days so I could not go to Night School, so I was considered unqualified practically anything, and that continued even beyond the M.A."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is interesting, but yet it did not stop you from moving up and doing all the variety of things you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is one of the oddities. Even though they kept telling me I was educationally unqualified, I kept saying I deserve a promotion and I meant it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they agreed, yeah?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.626588460396409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is one of the oddities. Even though they kept telling me I was educationally unqualified, I kept saying I deserve a promotion and I meant it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they agreed, yeah?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they agreed, yuh. Not easily, not easily. That's why Walt Robertson said my career would never be repeated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if you know Walt Robertson"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do,' I do. Well let me get into more of your work at the National Archives. One of the cornerstones of the Electronic and Special Media Record Services Division what used to be called the Center for Electronic Records and the Machine Readable Branch are census records. They are the cornerstone. Tell us about your first job as a clerk on the 1940 Census."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.25176495599601, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they agreed, yuh. Not easily, not easily. That's why Walt Robertson said my career would never be repeated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if you know Walt Robertson"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do,' I do. Well let me get into more of your work at the National Archives. One of the cornerstones of the Electronic and Special Media Record Services Division what used to be called the Center for Electronic Records and the Machine Readable Branch are census records. They are the cornerstone. Tell us about your first job as a clerk on the 1940 Census."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's what I did. I was coding the Population Schedules and I was probably pretty near the end of my employment there. They kept reducing the staff and I suspect if I hadn't gotten the job in the Archives I probably would have been discharged."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you do work for the Census Bureau?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.835294395551122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if you know Walt Robertson"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do,' I do. Well let me get into more of your work at the National Archives. One of the cornerstones of the Electronic and Special Media Record Services Division what used to be called the Center for Electronic Records and the Machine Readable Branch are census records. They are the cornerstone. Tell us about your first job as a clerk on the 1940 Census."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's what I did. I was coding the Population Schedules and I was probably pretty near the end of my employment there. They kept reducing the staff and I suspect if I hadn't gotten the job in the Archives I probably would have been discharged."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you do work for the Census Bureau?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was July 1, 1940 until I got to the National Archives on December 10, 1940."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, by having worked with the census records, were you entranced by them? Once you came to the National Archives did you .."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.594771550612357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's what I did. I was coding the Population Schedules and I was probably pretty near the end of my employment there. They kept reducing the staff and I suspect if I hadn't gotten the job in the Archives I probably would have been discharged."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you do work for the Census Bureau?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was July 1, 1940 until I got to the National Archives on December 10, 1940."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, by having worked with the census records, were you entranced by them? Once you came to the National Archives did you .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, my interest in census came later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. How did that happen?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.438635056235952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was July 1, 1940 until I got to the National Archives on December 10, 1940."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, by having worked with the census records, were you entranced by them? Once you came to the National Archives did you .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, my interest in census came later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. How did that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I found that many of the researchers were interested in quantification. The ones that I dealt with in the early days, so I became interested in for quantified information and that as you can imagine, Fynnette, influenced my career actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes it did. It is very clearly that it did. So how did you find yourself at the National Archives? How did you find the National Archives job? You were working at Census and it sounded like you needed to find a job because it was going to end."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.487372284706613, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, my interest in census came later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. How did that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I found that many of the researchers were interested in quantification. The ones that I dealt with in the early days, so I became interested in for quantified information and that as you can imagine, Fynnette, influenced my career actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes it did. It is very clearly that it did. So how did you find yourself at the National Archives? How did you find the National Archives job? You were working at Census and it sounded like you needed to find a job because it was going to end."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well ..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find it?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.3193025385629, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I found that many of the researchers were interested in quantification. The ones that I dealt with in the early days, so I became interested in for quantified information and that as you can imagine, Fynnette, influenced my career actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes it did. It is very clearly that it did. So how did you find yourself at the National Archives? How did you find the National Archives job? You were working at Census and it sounded like you needed to find a job because it was going to end."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well ..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was working in the laundry it never occurred to me that there was a chance for federal employment. Two of my _friends got jobs in the Post Office. I went down there to see what types of exams I would qualify for, in other words, jobs without any qualifications. So I took two exams, thought nothing would come of it. One was the apprentice fingerprint classifier and the other was assistant messenger. So the-first one got me the job at the Census Bureau. The second one got me the job at the Archives, but so much happened that first day that was quite startling, my first day at the Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about it."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.87970169898889, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was supposed to be an apprentice archives repairman and the head of Repair and Preservation really did not want me. I had an interview with him, it was very brief. He just said to me, \"We don't like New Yorkers here.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, the interesting part of that he was born in Brooklyn and attended Columbia University, but I knew what he meant by that being a New Yorker, a special kind of New Yorker. So he did not want me. So when I came. At first I was surprised after that interview that they offered me a job at the Archives. I always wondered, they always gave three names. I wondered who the other two were. My suspicion was that other two were black; that's my guess. Anyway, when I got to talk to the Director of Personnel, he mumbled a bit and said, \"Oh, you have some college credits.\" He said, \"Will you accept a promotion?\" That's what he actually said, \"Will you accept a promotion?\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Laughter"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I said, \"Yeah.\" So instead of being on the wage scale, about $1200 per annum, I got $1260, but in a completely new class. I was a sub professional, so that I would have been trapped in wage scale work probably if the Director of Repair & Preservation wanted me, but he didn't want me so they pushed me upstairs. So I was promoted the day I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can't.I don't know of anyone else who has had that experience, Meyer. That's a unique experience."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.199668554432101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, the interesting part of that he was born in Brooklyn and attended Columbia University, but I knew what he meant by that being a New Yorker, a special kind of New Yorker. So he did not want me. So when I came. At first I was surprised after that interview that they offered me a job at the Archives. I always wondered, they always gave three names. I wondered who the other two were. My suspicion was that other two were black; that's my guess. Anyway, when I got to talk to the Director of Personnel, he mumbled a bit and said, \"Oh, you have some college credits.\" He said, \"Will you accept a promotion?\" That's what he actually said, \"Will you accept a promotion?\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Laughter"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I said, \"Yeah.\" So instead of being on the wage scale, about $1200 per annum, I got $1260, but in a completely new class. I was a sub professional, so that I would have been trapped in wage scale work probably if the Director of Repair & Preservation wanted me, but he didn't want me so they pushed me upstairs. So I was promoted the day I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can't.I don't know of anyone else who has had that experience, Meyer. That's a unique experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was. That first day was really a remarkable one. In fact, the entire day was remarkable; as soon as I started work it was remarkable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me follow up .."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.666298393813445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I said, \"Yeah.\" So instead of being on the wage scale, about $1200 per annum, I got $1260, but in a completely new class. I was a sub professional, so that I would have been trapped in wage scale work probably if the Director of Repair & Preservation wanted me, but he didn't want me so they pushed me upstairs. So I was promoted the day I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can't.I don't know of anyone else who has had that experience, Meyer. That's a unique experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was. That first day was really a remarkable one. In fact, the entire day was remarkable; as soon as I started work it was remarkable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me follow up .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly. I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. I want to build upon that. Whatwere your impressions of NARA when you started working."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.18477599312605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was. That first day was really a remarkable one. In fact, the entire day was remarkable; as soon as I started work it was remarkable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me follow up .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly. I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. I want to build upon that. Whatwere your impressions of NARA when you started working."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no idea what the agency was. I asked a friend of mine, when I was asked for the interview. He said, \"It's a building on Pennsylvania Avenue.\" That is all I knew. So when I came there, I had no idea of what the National Archives was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you to understand what the National Archives was?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.277501226081544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no idea what the agency was. I asked a friend of mine, when I was asked for the interview. He said, \"It's a building on Pennsylvania Avenue.\" That is all I knew. So when I came there, I had no idea of what the National Archives was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you to understand what the National Archives was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well not long actually. When I was told what my job was, that was great with me. I was supposed to pack and shelve the records of the NRA, the National Recovery Administration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh"}, {"role": "user", "content": "NRA. Gee, great. I know all about NRA. They had that, you probably had not heard of that Fynnette, they had the blue eagle with almost every store front in New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But now that you say it, I can see it. I remember seeing a picture of it."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.08611247342394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well not long actually. When I was told what my job was, that was great with me. I was supposed to pack and shelve the records of the NRA, the National Recovery Administration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh"}, {"role": "user", "content": "NRA. Gee, great. I know all about NRA. They had that, you probably had not heard of that Fynnette, they had the blue eagle with almost every store front in New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But now that you say it, I can see it. I remember seeing a picture of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The blue eagle, publicity for the NRA. I didn't know much about it, so I actually learned about NRA by looking at the records. It never occurred to me to go into the legislation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That times to learn to do that."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.873458303804377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NRA. Gee, great. I know all about NRA. They had that, you probably had not heard of that Fynnette, they had the blue eagle with almost every store front in New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But now that you say it, I can see it. I remember seeing a picture of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The blue eagle, publicity for the NRA. I didn't know much about it, so I actually learned about NRA by looking at the records. It never occurred to me to go into the legislation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That times to learn to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there was a special situation. The records were an absolute mess. They were on open shelves. What happened was Harold Ickes ordered the records to be destroyed. The National Archives was established and they put a stop to it, which was very fortunate, because the NRA records were very valuable during the second World War in price controls, because that is what the NRA did, the controlled prices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were the NRA records at the National Archives? And they came and° used them during the Second World War?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.572170745437504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there was a special situation. The records were an absolute mess. They were on open shelves. What happened was Harold Ickes ordered the records to be destroyed. The National Archives was established and they put a stop to it, which was very fortunate, because the NRA records were very valuable during the second World War in price controls, because that is what the NRA did, the controlled prices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were the NRA records at the National Archives? And they came and° used them during the Second World War?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, in fact I serviced them in the early part of the war particularly, OPACS, which was a predecessor of OPA that combined what amounted to OPA and War Production Board. Then it was split into two separate agencies. It had an effect, because it changed my career within a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One week. Well, my job was to pack and shelve the NRA records and Assa Thornton who was Assistant Division Chief was running ;iround, the whole staff was running around and I said, f'Gee, can I be of any help?\" He says oh no, but he did tell me what it was. The head of OPACS wanted maps of trading areas of the United States. He knew about them because he had been an official of the NRA and he knew that they had these trading area maps. So I said okay. I went into the stack area and just walked around. I looked at the top shelf; everything was on open selves, loose records, and I saw a cardboard tube. And I said, \"Gee, that might be.\" And there it was. So I gave them to Assa Thorton? He was so delighted. He said I am sure you want to get home for Christmas. Laughter\n\nBut it did make an impression on him, even though it was a pure accident. No special knowledge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you showed initiative and you were able to find things."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.85796749493056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, in fact I serviced them in the early part of the war particularly, OPACS, which was a predecessor of OPA that combined what amounted to OPA and War Production Board. Then it was split into two separate agencies. It had an effect, because it changed my career within a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One week. Well, my job was to pack and shelve the NRA records and Assa Thornton who was Assistant Division Chief was running ;iround, the whole staff was running around and I said, f'Gee, can I be of any help?\" He says oh no, but he did tell me what it was. The head of OPACS wanted maps of trading areas of the United States. He knew about them because he had been an official of the NRA and he knew that they had these trading area maps. So I said okay. I went into the stack area and just walked around. I looked at the top shelf; everything was on open selves, loose records, and I saw a cardboard tube. And I said, \"Gee, that might be.\" And there it was. So I gave them to Assa Thorton? He was so delighted. He said I am sure you want to get home for Christmas. Laughter\n\nBut it did make an impression on him, even though it was a pure accident. No special knowledge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you showed initiative and you were able to find things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it saved them from dealing with a very important official in the government. And so, it was pure accident and it made a difference in the way I was treated. From then on .."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well let's talk. It sounds like you were hired for one thing. And how long did you do the packing up and shelving?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.651811722136493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it saved them from dealing with a very important official in the government. And so, it was pure accident and it made a difference in the way I was treated. From then on .."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well let's talk. It sounds like you were hired for one thing. And how long did you do the packing up and shelving?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it did continue for quite awhile, but before long I was doing inventories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even though I was unqualified to do it by archive standards. If I worked anywhere else in the Archives, I could not have done what I did, but Paul Lewinson was Division Director and he paid no attention to grades. You either could or couldn't do it. But you didn't dare make an error. And I was lucky that somehow or other, I avoided errors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you stay in that position?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.16867969126277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it did continue for quite awhile, but before long I was doing inventories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even though I was unqualified to do it by archive standards. If I worked anywhere else in the Archives, I could not have done what I did, but Paul Lewinson was Division Director and he paid no attention to grades. You either could or couldn't do it. But you didn't dare make an error. And I was lucky that somehow or other, I avoided errors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you stay in that position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My title was Minor Archives Assistant"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a lovely title. That is impressive"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.924295915139222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My title was Minor Archives Assistant"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a lovely title. That is impressive"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't that impressive? It was an SP2, sub professional 2, which was equivalent really to a GSl, if that makes any sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After a year in which I was doing all kinds of things already, I said well I think I ought to get a promotion. And Paul Lewinson sort of backed me up on that. Something else happened, also a lucky accident that got me sort of favorable treatment. There was nothing to it, but it seemed impressive to people. What happened is somebody came in and said he had been a watchman for the U.S. Railroad Administration and he wanted to prove his service. He doubted that there was any record of it. And he was leaving, before he left I already found it and sent it forward. He was so impressed he went to the Head of Reference and told him how amazed he was, so he called Lewinson and said I had been so prompt in that. But it sort of again, a pure accident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But, it's a wonderful story and it builds upon, yes. Because, today when we talk about electronic records, the reason we have to document peoples service, so that they can get the benefits that they are due. You were doing it forty years ago. That's a wonderful example."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.360328794599136, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't that impressive? It was an SP2, sub professional 2, which was equivalent really to a GSl, if that makes any sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After a year in which I was doing all kinds of things already, I said well I think I ought to get a promotion. And Paul Lewinson sort of backed me up on that. Something else happened, also a lucky accident that got me sort of favorable treatment. There was nothing to it, but it seemed impressive to people. What happened is somebody came in and said he had been a watchman for the U.S. Railroad Administration and he wanted to prove his service. He doubted that there was any record of it. And he was leaving, before he left I already found it and sent it forward. He was so impressed he went to the Head of Reference and told him how amazed he was, so he called Lewinson and said I had been so prompt in that. But it sort of again, a pure accident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But, it's a wonderful story and it builds upon, yes. Because, today when we talk about electronic records, the reason we have to document peoples service, so that they can get the benefits that they are due. You were doing it forty years ago. That's a wonderful example."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, so you know those lucky accidents. I referred to myself as the accident­ prone archivist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a lovely title. Well let me take a longer view of things. In your long and distinguished career with NARA you served as the Director of the Business Economics Branch, the Records Appraisal Division and the Military Archives Division. Could you take a moment and discuss each of the roles and positions that you held in these jobs? Because we talk about chance you were able to take advantage of chance, but you have held so many important positions. I would like to hear your thoughts about them."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.733698660665706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After a year in which I was doing all kinds of things already, I said well I think I ought to get a promotion. And Paul Lewinson sort of backed me up on that. Something else happened, also a lucky accident that got me sort of favorable treatment. There was nothing to it, but it seemed impressive to people. What happened is somebody came in and said he had been a watchman for the U.S. Railroad Administration and he wanted to prove his service. He doubted that there was any record of it. And he was leaving, before he left I already found it and sent it forward. He was so impressed he went to the Head of Reference and told him how amazed he was, so he called Lewinson and said I had been so prompt in that. But it sort of again, a pure accident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But, it's a wonderful story and it builds upon, yes. Because, today when we talk about electronic records, the reason we have to document peoples service, so that they can get the benefits that they are due. You were doing it forty years ago. That's a wonderful example."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, so you know those lucky accidents. I referred to myself as the accident­ prone archivist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a lovely title. Well let me take a longer view of things. In your long and distinguished career with NARA you served as the Director of the Business Economics Branch, the Records Appraisal Division and the Military Archives Division. Could you take a moment and discuss each of the roles and positions that you held in these jobs? Because we talk about chance you were able to take advantage of chance, but you have held so many important positions. I would like to hear your thoughts about them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Business Economics, as Chief of that, working with Paul Levinson, although he would check on me once in a while, but he would let me do my own thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role in being the Chief there? What did you want to see that section accomplish?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.572467482303339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Business Economics, as Chief of that, working with Paul Levinson, although he would check on me once in a while, but he would let me do my own thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role in being the Chief there? What did you want to see that section accomplish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had records of the Commerce Department, which of course included the Census Bureau, so that is the tie in. And the Federal Trade Commission, a number of organizations that dealt with some areas of Commerce, but I had pretty much a free hand. Not only did I have custody of the records, I could do appraisal, but that required all kinds of approvals to accession records. But I was, I could go to the agencies and start accessioning records, reviewing disposal requests so that I had pretty much a free hand. It was a great job. It was nice, little small staff, always a prime for me right from the start; was always have a good secretary. (Laughter) I got that lesson the very first day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I walked into the Archives and there was this lady Mildred. I have forgotten her second name, who greeted me warmly. You know, here I was nobody. Well she was a real southerner from South Carolina with ties to a Senator Cotton Ed Smith. That was the way she was, but gee how important it is to have someone greet you, the whole impression of an office you get from the secretary. So I learned fir lesson 1 about secretaries the first day I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now tell me about the names of the good secretaries that you have had; those that you can remember."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.413852758114821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had records of the Commerce Department, which of course included the Census Bureau, so that is the tie in. And the Federal Trade Commission, a number of organizations that dealt with some areas of Commerce, but I had pretty much a free hand. Not only did I have custody of the records, I could do appraisal, but that required all kinds of approvals to accession records. But I was, I could go to the agencies and start accessioning records, reviewing disposal requests so that I had pretty much a free hand. It was a great job. It was nice, little small staff, always a prime for me right from the start; was always have a good secretary. (Laughter) I got that lesson the very first day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I walked into the Archives and there was this lady Mildred. I have forgotten her second name, who greeted me warmly. You know, here I was nobody. Well she was a real southerner from South Carolina with ties to a Senator Cotton Ed Smith. That was the way she was, but gee how important it is to have someone greet you, the whole impression of an office you get from the secretary. So I learned fir lesson 1 about secretaries the first day I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now tell me about the names of the good secretaries that you have had; those that you can remember."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My memory---"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. I am going to test your memory in another way. Can you give me the dates of your career moves at the National Archives? You were"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.387472540882495, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My memory---"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. I am going to test your memory in another way. Can you give me the dates of your career moves at the National Archives? You were"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that would be difficult"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I, after I was there a year, I sort of looked around, I figured I am doing work well beyond my grade, because they let me do it. As I said no other branch in the Archives would have permitted that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the Archives large?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.541636156536105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that would be difficult"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I, after I was there a year, I sort of looked around, I figured I am doing work well beyond my grade, because they let me do it. As I said no other branch in the Archives would have permitted that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the Archives large?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large was the archives at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.601817951706783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I, after I was there a year, I sort of looked around, I figured I am doing work well beyond my grade, because they let me do it. As I said no other branch in the Archives would have permitted that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the Archives large?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large was the archives at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. At that time each department had a division chief to accession their records. The first one I worked in was called the Division of Labor Department Archives. It has a whole history in the organization of the Archives. Each department had a division within the Archives. But each division was pretty small, just a few people. I was introduced to the people at my division the first day I showed up. There was just a few of us; someone like Phil Bauer. These names probably do not mean anything to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they do."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.557575501896425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large was the archives at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. At that time each department had a division chief to accession their records. The first one I worked in was called the Division of Labor Department Archives. It has a whole history in the organization of the Archives. Each department had a division within the Archives. But each division was pretty small, just a few people. I was introduced to the people at my division the first day I showed up. There was just a few of us; someone like Phil Bauer. These names probably do not mean anything to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, Phil Bauer was a sad situation, but that is another story. And there was Bill Raply, who was supposed to take charge of me, to make sure I did not goof up. That I did things his way, but that didn't work out, in my case with Bill Ra ply, because of the situation with the two commendations just as I started, so I"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They let you have free reign because ..."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.50841722432936, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. At that time each department had a division chief to accession their records. The first one I worked in was called the Division of Labor Department Archives. It has a whole history in the organization of the Archives. Each department had a division within the Archives. But each division was pretty small, just a few people. I was introduced to the people at my division the first day I showed up. There was just a few of us; someone like Phil Bauer. These names probably do not mean anything to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, Phil Bauer was a sad situation, but that is another story. And there was Bill Raply, who was supposed to take charge of me, to make sure I did not goof up. That I did things his way, but that didn't work out, in my case with Bill Ra ply, because of the situation with the two commendations just as I started, so I"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They let you have free reign because ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was able to work with some independence. And the odd part about this was, before long I was permitted to handle researchers in areas with the records of which I was familiar, particularly NRA. We had a lot of economists coming to look at the NRA records. And it was kind of amusing. They referred to me as Dr. Fishbein, and here I had 39 credits. And I said No! I do not have a doctorate. And they looked disappointed! So I figured if they are happy to call me doctor, let them call me doctor. (Laughter) I found this situation kind of amusing, even then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first job that you served as a supervisor? Was it with the Business ..."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.453796915921512, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, Phil Bauer was a sad situation, but that is another story. And there was Bill Raply, who was supposed to take charge of me, to make sure I did not goof up. That I did things his way, but that didn't work out, in my case with Bill Ra ply, because of the situation with the two commendations just as I started, so I"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They let you have free reign because ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was able to work with some independence. And the odd part about this was, before long I was permitted to handle researchers in areas with the records of which I was familiar, particularly NRA. We had a lot of economists coming to look at the NRA records. And it was kind of amusing. They referred to me as Dr. Fishbein, and here I had 39 credits. And I said No! I do not have a doctorate. And they looked disappointed! So I figured if they are happy to call me doctor, let them call me doctor. (Laughter) I found this situation kind of amusing, even then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first job that you served as a supervisor? Was it with the Business ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I became Assistant Branch Chief under Vic Gondoss, I am"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have read some of the history, so some of the names are familiar, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.504218795468345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was able to work with some independence. And the odd part about this was, before long I was permitted to handle researchers in areas with the records of which I was familiar, particularly NRA. We had a lot of economists coming to look at the NRA records. And it was kind of amusing. They referred to me as Dr. Fishbein, and here I had 39 credits. And I said No! I do not have a doctorate. And they looked disappointed! So I figured if they are happy to call me doctor, let them call me doctor. (Laughter) I found this situation kind of amusing, even then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first job that you served as a supervisor? Was it with the Business ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I became Assistant Branch Chief under Vic Gondoss, I am"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have read some of the history, so some of the names are familiar, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We became good friends, always referred to him as the pincher, which I will not explain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, I won't go there."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.67135421718705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I became Assistant Branch Chief under Vic Gondoss, I am"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have read some of the history, so some of the names are familiar, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We became good friends, always referred to him as the pincher, which I will not explain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, I won't go there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But he was considerably disabled by extreme arthritis and so I had pretty much a free rein working with him. That was pretty much it. But I found that I became quite interested in this whole business of quantification, because of these economists. I saw more economists, I rarely saw historians. So I got the kind of reputation; if you are talking about economics, see Fishbein, even though I had one course in Economics. It was just an unusual situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with the Business Economics Branch. When did you get involved with Records Appraisal? Was that later?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.857060241318944, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We became good friends, always referred to him as the pincher, which I will not explain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, I won't go there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But he was considerably disabled by extreme arthritis and so I had pretty much a free rein working with him. That was pretty much it. But I found that I became quite interested in this whole business of quantification, because of these economists. I saw more economists, I rarely saw historians. So I got the kind of reputation; if you are talking about economics, see Fishbein, even though I had one course in Economics. It was just an unusual situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with the Business Economics Branch. When did you get involved with Records Appraisal? Was that later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's a long story, well it is a bit of a story. For one thing, when I, to become branch chief, Schellenberg arranged that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We all recognize that name."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.070444742369066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's a long story, well it is a bit of a story. For one thing, when I, to become branch chief, Schellenberg arranged that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We all recognize that name."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My relations with Schellenberg were pretty interesting, very interesting relationship with Schellenberg. Anyway, I came to Schellenberg and says, \"I am stuck at my grade. I'd like a promotion.\" And he said to me, \"Your situation embarrasses me, let's see what we can do,\" which kind of amazed me, because I was warned not to go to Schellenberg, because Schellenberg was anti-Semitic, and he was"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah he was. That's a story. I got the background to that from Paul Lewinson, but, anyway. So what he did was he moved Vic Gondos to Military Archives and promoted me as Branch Chief in Vic's place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you in that position? A number of years?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.07827193596563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My relations with Schellenberg were pretty interesting, very interesting relationship with Schellenberg. Anyway, I came to Schellenberg and says, \"I am stuck at my grade. I'd like a promotion.\" And he said to me, \"Your situation embarrasses me, let's see what we can do,\" which kind of amazed me, because I was warned not to go to Schellenberg, because Schellenberg was anti-Semitic, and he was"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah he was. That's a story. I got the background to that from Paul Lewinson, but, anyway. So what he did was he moved Vic Gondos to Military Archives and promoted me as Branch Chief in Vic's place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you in that position? A number of years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A few years and then I got involved in a reorganization, a big reorganization at the archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved? Did you do some of the planning for the reorganization or were you just affected by the reorganization?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.864746595517366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah he was. That's a story. I got the background to that from Paul Lewinson, but, anyway. So what he did was he moved Vic Gondos to Military Archives and promoted me as Branch Chief in Vic's place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you in that position? A number of years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A few years and then I got involved in a reorganization, a big reorganization at the archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved? Did you do some of the planning for the reorganization or were you just affected by the reorganization?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was greatly affected by the reorganization. I knew something was coming because Bob Bah mer and Walt Robertson said you want to come to lunch. At that time Paul Lewinson retired and I was .. Oliver Wendell Holmes became my immediate boss and they asked me what I thought of Holmes as a boss. I said I won't tell you because if I say anything about him, I want him right here and I refused .to say anything, but I knew something was up and it was a big reorganization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it centered around Holmes?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.627496217241518, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A few years and then I got involved in a reorganization, a big reorganization at the archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved? Did you do some of the planning for the reorganization or were you just affected by the reorganization?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was greatly affected by the reorganization. I knew something was coming because Bob Bah mer and Walt Robertson said you want to come to lunch. At that time Paul Lewinson retired and I was .. Oliver Wendell Holmes became my immediate boss and they asked me what I thought of Holmes as a boss. I said I won't tell you because if I say anything about him, I want him right here and I refused .to say anything, but I knew something was up and it was a big reorganization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it centered around Holmes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The whole Archives was reorganized. And eventually Schellenberg ... first he was made. They had problems with Schellenberg. They didn't like him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn't like his management style?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.252773574712798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was greatly affected by the reorganization. I knew something was coming because Bob Bah mer and Walt Robertson said you want to come to lunch. At that time Paul Lewinson retired and I was .. Oliver Wendell Holmes became my immediate boss and they asked me what I thought of Holmes as a boss. I said I won't tell you because if I say anything about him, I want him right here and I refused .to say anything, but I knew something was up and it was a big reorganization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it centered around Holmes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The whole Archives was reorganized. And eventually Schellenberg ... first he was made. They had problems with Schellenberg. They didn't like him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn't like his management style?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They didn't like his complete independence, his acerbic manner. He would look down on them, on the top office, the whole business of the top office. My relations with them, well I don't want to talk about it. Not very good. Anyway, they wanted to pretty much get Schellenberg out of the way, so they made him Assistant Archivist for Records Appraisal in Office of Records Appraisal and it came at Christmas. I don't know why all of the big things happened at the Archives on Christmas week, including my retirement. Anyway, at the party at Christmas, he shook my hand and he shook a couple of hands and he said \"Those whose hands I shook are going to be working for me,\" and I was very unhappy about it. But it was a big plus for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was it a big plus for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.947526194125331, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The whole Archives was reorganized. And eventually Schellenberg ... first he was made. They had problems with Schellenberg. They didn't like him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn't like his management style?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They didn't like his complete independence, his acerbic manner. He would look down on them, on the top office, the whole business of the top office. My relations with them, well I don't want to talk about it. Not very good. Anyway, they wanted to pretty much get Schellenberg out of the way, so they made him Assistant Archivist for Records Appraisal in Office of Records Appraisal and it came at Christmas. I don't know why all of the big things happened at the Archives on Christmas week, including my retirement. Anyway, at the party at Christmas, he shook my hand and he shook a couple of hands and he said \"Those whose hands I shook are going to be working for me,\" and I was very unhappy about it. But it was a big plus for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was it a big plus for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, for one thing, even though out of the building Schellenberg would not even recognize me, he'd walk right by me as if I didn't even exist, at work our relations were great. It was a complete change. And it was then that he talked about some system for planning the disposition of records by making some kind of retention plan, so I said, \"I volunteer. I would like to do it for the Census Bureau as a test.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you worked with him in developing retention ... ?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.719473549028145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They didn't like his complete independence, his acerbic manner. He would look down on them, on the top office, the whole business of the top office. My relations with them, well I don't want to talk about it. Not very good. Anyway, they wanted to pretty much get Schellenberg out of the way, so they made him Assistant Archivist for Records Appraisal in Office of Records Appraisal and it came at Christmas. I don't know why all of the big things happened at the Archives on Christmas week, including my retirement. Anyway, at the party at Christmas, he shook my hand and he shook a couple of hands and he said \"Those whose hands I shook are going to be working for me,\" and I was very unhappy about it. But it was a big plus for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why was it a big plus for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, for one thing, even though out of the building Schellenberg would not even recognize me, he'd walk right by me as if I didn't even exist, at work our relations were great. It was a complete change. And it was then that he talked about some system for planning the disposition of records by making some kind of retention plan, so I said, \"I volunteer. I would like to do it for the Census Bureau as a test.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you worked with him in developing retention ... ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah! Well he outlined some of his ideas and they struck me as very sensible. So I said yeah. And he did talk to me, well, as I said he wouldn't talk to me outside the building. He said okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is interesting how so many interesting people at the Archives almost have this dual personality, whereas they can be very warm, they are willing to share information inside, but away they are not. That's fascinating. You are showing a very interesting side of Schellenberg. I think most of us think of Schellenberg as the author of all these"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.577192832253495, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, for one thing, even though out of the building Schellenberg would not even recognize me, he'd walk right by me as if I didn't even exist, at work our relations were great. It was a complete change. And it was then that he talked about some system for planning the disposition of records by making some kind of retention plan, so I said, \"I volunteer. I would like to do it for the Census Bureau as a test.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you worked with him in developing retention ... ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah! Well he outlined some of his ideas and they struck me as very sensible. So I said yeah. And he did talk to me, well, as I said he wouldn't talk to me outside the building. He said okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is interesting how so many interesting people at the Archives almost have this dual personality, whereas they can be very warm, they are willing to share information inside, but away they are not. That's fascinating. You are showing a very interesting side of Schellenberg. I think most of us think of Schellenberg as the author of all these"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely, but there is more to him"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.530214258059438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah! Well he outlined some of his ideas and they struck me as very sensible. So I said yeah. And he did talk to me, well, as I said he wouldn't talk to me outside the building. He said okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is interesting how so many interesting people at the Archives almost have this dual personality, whereas they can be very warm, they are willing to share information inside, but away they are not. That's fascinating. You are showing a very interesting side of Schellenberg. I think most of us think of Schellenberg as the author of all these"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely, but there is more to him"}, {"role": "user", "content": "World famous Schellenberg. Schellenberg was world famous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He still is. There is no question."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.589126953399376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely, but there is more to him"}, {"role": "user", "content": "World famous Schellenberg. Schellenberg was world famous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He still is. There is no question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I did find out why his extreme opinions. I don't know if that's relevant to this interview: the cause for some of Schellenberg's behavior. I did get the story. But I don't know if that is of any interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we would be interested."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.321252170443752, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "World famous Schellenberg. Schellenberg was world famous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He still is. There is no question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I did find out why his extreme opinions. I don't know if that's relevant to this interview: the cause for some of Schellenberg's behavior. I did get the story. But I don't know if that is of any interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we would be interested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would be interested? It would be pretty brief. During the First World War, he was attacked as a German. There was this antisGerman feeling during the First World War and it really turned him into an extreme Anglophobe. And somehow it tied in with anti-Semitism. I don't know what the connection is. But it was good to know why. I got that whole story from"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That does help . ."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.13472463382639, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I did find out why his extreme opinions. I don't know if that's relevant to this interview: the cause for some of Schellenberg's behavior. I did get the story. But I don't know if that is of any interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we would be interested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would be interested? It would be pretty brief. During the First World War, he was attacked as a German. There was this antisGerman feeling during the First World War and it really turned him into an extreme Anglophobe. And somehow it tied in with anti-Semitism. I don't know what the connection is. But it was good to know why. I got that whole story from"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That does help . ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think anyone around Archives knew that story or very few of them"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.042869918304184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think anyone around Archives knew that story or very few of them"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lewinson knew about it"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had very good relations. See I was very lucky in at all my supervisors, except for one. Everyone one of them was very helpful to me, except for one, Oliver Wendell Holmes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok. It sounds like most of your supervisors recognized that by giving you free reign, you would do well, you would succeed andyou would improve the services that you provided to people. So I know it sounds like it wasn't as controlling as it has become."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.047633242560204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lewinson knew about it"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had very good relations. See I was very lucky in at all my supervisors, except for one. Everyone one of them was very helpful to me, except for one, Oliver Wendell Holmes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok. It sounds like most of your supervisors recognized that by giving you free reign, you would do well, you would succeed andyou would improve the services that you provided to people. So I know it sounds like it wasn't as controlling as it has become."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was just fortunate that I had good relations with my direct supervisors and they did, as you said, they did give me a considerable free reign. And I really enjoyed it. I'd get to work early, I was so anxious to go to work. I enjoyed every day of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.058806472296547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was just fortunate that I had good relations with my direct supervisors and they did, as you said, they did give me a considerable free reign. And I really enjoyed it. I'd get to work early, I was so anxious to go to work. I enjoyed every day of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except for the last few years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Military Archives Division was a bad experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it the records, was it the people you were dealing with or the lack of resources?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.176451635885051, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except for the last few years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Military Archives Division was a bad experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it the records, was it the people you were dealing with or the lack of resources?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Personnel, I had about 90 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a large staff"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.307168484316724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Military Archives Division was a bad experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it the records, was it the people you were dealing with or the lack of resources?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Personnel, I had about 90 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a large staff"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And 3 branches. I found that it had been terribly mismanaged. And the odd part of it is, I hate to say this, but Mabel Dietrich had a reputation as a great manager, but she let several people go free who never did a stitch of work. And she also told me I wanted to promote one of the staff and she said, \"Oh no you can't promote him, he's too friendly with the rest of the staff.\" That struck me as dam odd, because I was friendly with all of them. (Laughter)\n\nThat struck me as very odd. But I had to fire three people. And get involved in paperwork. I wasn't dealing with records really. Budget, but I really had no control over the budget. It was a sham. That's why I finally quit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So except for that one last position, you really thoroughly enjoyed."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.563520538129694, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Personnel, I had about 90 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a large staff"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And 3 branches. I found that it had been terribly mismanaged. And the odd part of it is, I hate to say this, but Mabel Dietrich had a reputation as a great manager, but she let several people go free who never did a stitch of work. And she also told me I wanted to promote one of the staff and she said, \"Oh no you can't promote him, he's too friendly with the rest of the staff.\" That struck me as dam odd, because I was friendly with all of them. (Laughter)\n\nThat struck me as very odd. But I had to fire three people. And get involved in paperwork. I wasn't dealing with records really. Budget, but I really had no control over the budget. It was a sham. That's why I finally quit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So except for that one last position, you really thoroughly enjoyed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every day. It may sound odd, but I did enjoy every day of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it. I have no doubts about that. What I would like to do and it is close to my heart, and I know that you have been involved with it. I would like to talk about electronic records for a little while, if I can do that. In the book Thirty Years af Electronic Records edited by Bruce Ambacher, you wrote the introduction, which was titled \"Recollections of an Electronic Records Pioneer.\""}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.848356153477438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And 3 branches. I found that it had been terribly mismanaged. And the odd part of it is, I hate to say this, but Mabel Dietrich had a reputation as a great manager, but she let several people go free who never did a stitch of work. And she also told me I wanted to promote one of the staff and she said, \"Oh no you can't promote him, he's too friendly with the rest of the staff.\" That struck me as dam odd, because I was friendly with all of them. (Laughter)\n\nThat struck me as very odd. But I had to fire three people. And get involved in paperwork. I wasn't dealing with records really. Budget, but I really had no control over the budget. It was a sham. That's why I finally quit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So except for that one last position, you really thoroughly enjoyed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every day. It may sound odd, but I did enjoy every day of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it. I have no doubts about that. What I would like to do and it is close to my heart, and I know that you have been involved with it. I would like to talk about electronic records for a little while, if I can do that. In the book Thirty Years af Electronic Records edited by Bruce Ambacher, you wrote the introduction, which was titled \"Recollections of an Electronic Records Pioneer.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ambacher gave me that title. I just said introduction. That is all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you are a pioneer. What I would like you to do ..."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.275951281641598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every day. It may sound odd, but I did enjoy every day of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it. I have no doubts about that. What I would like to do and it is close to my heart, and I know that you have been involved with it. I would like to talk about electronic records for a little while, if I can do that. In the book Thirty Years af Electronic Records edited by Bruce Ambacher, you wrote the introduction, which was titled \"Recollections of an Electronic Records Pioneer.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ambacher gave me that title. I just said introduction. That is all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you are a pioneer. What I would like you to do ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, it is an accident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright, well your life seems, your career at the National Archives seems like it was an accident. But can you talk about the history of electronics at the National Archives and what your experiences were, beginning the process of dealing with electronic records under your leadership."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.639945868490665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ambacher gave me that title. I just said introduction. That is all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you are a pioneer. What I would like you to do ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, it is an accident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright, well your life seems, your career at the National Archives seems like it was an accident. But can you talk about the history of electronics at the National Archives and what your experiences were, beginning the process of dealing with electronic records under your leadership."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course I was interested in quantification for a long time and you know I told the story about my seeing these tapes at the Census Bureau, quite by accident. But I recognized that it was a problem. You had to make, do some kind of appraisal. Census Bureau didn't think it needed an appraisal. All they did was use it and then erase it. I don't know if I told that story. \"Well,\" I said, \"why do you erase it?\" \"Because we can save $12.50.\" I still remember that. So I said well what authority do you have to do that. He said, \"We don't need any authority. I said, \"What gave you that idea?\" \"Well you didn't fuss with us about punch cards, so why are you fussing about these tapes?\" I said, \"No, no. These are records whether they are useful or useless. \"So I took a stand. I didn't. I had to act immediately. It is just the way that I am. I didn't wait to go back and then come back again and say this is what we are going to do. No, I said you are not going to destroy these. I will be back with you shortly. So I went back to the Archives and said we got a problem with this electronic business. I didn't call it that. I said this machine readable stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was the term we used."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 13.458231776391807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well the Bureau of the Budget was in favor of it and a lot of the academics were in favor of it. Well, you know what happened?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was the Chairman of the Subcommittee that dealt with this. I forget what the subcommittee was called, but the New York congressman and he said he had some questions about that. He said,\" I wantto understand all this data, this electronic business.\" He said, \"If I go on an airline; if I make a reservation on an aircraft. Say I am going to Chicago. He said. \"Will that be there?\" \"Oh yes, that is right on the electronic records.\" \"And if I make a pre-reservation for a hotel in Chicago will that be there?\" \"Oh yes.\" Then he said, \"Well, what if my secretary made the same reservations and ended up in the same room, would that be on the record?\" I remember exactly what he said. The whole audience went dead silent. He said,\" you are not going to get this.\" And so it was killed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really! That is a wonderful story. (Laughter)"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I enjoyed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is unbelievable!"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.286924195990897, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was the Chairman of the Subcommittee that dealt with this. I forget what the subcommittee was called, but the New York congressman and he said he had some questions about that. He said,\" I wantto understand all this data, this electronic business.\" He said, \"If I go on an airline; if I make a reservation on an aircraft. Say I am going to Chicago. He said. \"Will that be there?\" \"Oh yes, that is right on the electronic records.\" \"And if I make a pre-reservation for a hotel in Chicago will that be there?\" \"Oh yes.\" Then he said, \"Well, what if my secretary made the same reservations and ended up in the same room, would that be on the record?\" I remember exactly what he said. The whole audience went dead silent. He said,\" you are not going to get this.\" And so it was killed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really! That is a wonderful story. (Laughter)"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I enjoyed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is unbelievable!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I came back to Bahmer. I said, \"We have nothing to worry about. The law doesn't specify the medium. The Archives Act refers to all media.\" He says, \"We are already covered. We don't have to go to Congress, we don't have to do anything. \" He said, \"Maybe we should inform GSA.\" We were still under GSA then. I says,\" We can just go ahead and make our own program. But I think we have to do it, start something promptly to avoid interference. And it will become a de facto, part of the National Archives. \"And Bob Bah mer was great stuff. But I was again ineligible to head it up, so he designated Ev Allredge as head of this little unit to look into electronic records, which was Ev Allredge, Lou Dotter, who was my boss at that time and me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like though you were the one that had the most interest, so you were the one that did"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.11965950122333, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I came back to Bahmer. I said, \"We have nothing to worry about. The law doesn't specify the medium. The Archives Act refers to all media.\" He says, \"We are already covered. We don't have to go to Congress, we don't have to do anything. \" He said, \"Maybe we should inform GSA.\" We were still under GSA then. I says,\" We can just go ahead and make our own program. But I think we have to do it, start something promptly to avoid interference. And it will become a de facto, part of the National Archives. \"And Bob Bah mer was great stuff. But I was again ineligible to head it up, so he designated Ev Allredge as head of this little unit to look into electronic records, which was Ev Allredge, Lou Dotter, who was my boss at that time and me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like though you were the one that had the most interest, so you were the one that did"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, Ev Allredge was great"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Lou Dotter was fine, because he was my boss and he really gave me free rein. Daughter succeeded Schellenberg, when Schellenberg retired. This was in Records Appraisal. He would have been a great Archivist of the US. I think he would have been better than anyone that ever got the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "His name. I do not recognize. How long was he at the Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.026967765738448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how long. He was head of the Records Management."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a man who knew how to make decisions. He was a very severe supervisor. And I was really glad not to work directly under him, because he was rough. But he would have really turned the Archives upside down and very well. He was sharp, but he ran into one problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He applied to become Archivist of the United States against Bert Rhoads. And he put down that he had a doctorate, but he never really got the doctorate. He had finished all of everything, but at the very last, he ran out of money and he dropped out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he didn't write the dissertation?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.918853073042719, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a man who knew how to make decisions. He was a very severe supervisor. And I was really glad not to work directly under him, because he was rough. But he would have really turned the Archives upside down and very well. He was sharp, but he ran into one problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He applied to become Archivist of the United States against Bert Rhoads. And he put down that he had a doctorate, but he never really got the doctorate. He had finished all of everything, but at the very last, he ran out of money and he dropped out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he didn't write the dissertation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that eliminated him and then he finally retired. But he was the sharpest guy. He demanded excellent writing by his staff. I give you an example of how he operated. Some guy I knew said he was to go to an agency to make recommendations on .. l have forgotten what it was. The guy said, \"I don't know that area of work, of management.\" He said, \"Well what are you going to do this weekend? You go ahead and do it.\" That's the way he operated. Sharp. Anyway that's a side issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have been talking about' there are so many people, luminaries that you have worked with. You talked about Schellenberg. Are there others that you could talk briefly about, because for a lot of us they are just names. You are providing us a fuller picture of people."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.798725636714133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He applied to become Archivist of the United States against Bert Rhoads. And he put down that he had a doctorate, but he never really got the doctorate. He had finished all of everything, but at the very last, he ran out of money and he dropped out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he didn't write the dissertation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that eliminated him and then he finally retired. But he was the sharpest guy. He demanded excellent writing by his staff. I give you an example of how he operated. Some guy I knew said he was to go to an agency to make recommendations on .. l have forgotten what it was. The guy said, \"I don't know that area of work, of management.\" He said, \"Well what are you going to do this weekend? You go ahead and do it.\" That's the way he operated. Sharp. Anyway that's a side issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have been talking about' there are so many people, luminaries that you have worked with. You talked about Schellenberg. Are there others that you could talk briefly about, because for a lot of us they are just names. You are providing us a fuller picture of people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I can talk about Solon Buck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.176079312169078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was quite a scholar, but I had an odd session with him. That's when I was all the way down at the bottom of the scale, a minor archives assistant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I said,\" I am doing this work, I am doing beyond my grade. I should get a promotion.\" So, had a big conference. Imagine of the lowest level and the Personnel Director. Solon and all the officials to decide whether I should get a promotion from a SP2. It astounded me. Anyway Solon Buck came in and said this is going to be my decision. And he asked me to come up and talk to him. He said to me, \"Believe it or not,\" he said, \"I have some top people in the Archives who are unqualified for what they do, so I can't give you a promotion.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is an interesting story"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.417865902410087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I said,\" I am doing this work, I am doing beyond my grade. I should get a promotion.\" So, had a big conference. Imagine of the lowest level and the Personnel Director. Solon and all the officials to decide whether I should get a promotion from a SP2. It astounded me. Anyway Solon Buck came in and said this is going to be my decision. And he asked me to come up and talk to him. He said to me, \"Believe it or not,\" he said, \"I have some top people in the Archives who are unqualified for what they do, so I can't give you a promotion.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is an interesting story"}, {"role": "user", "content": "1..1 just looked at him in astonishment. Paul Lewinson, who came up there with me to protect me, never said a word, he just walked out. But Solon Buck did something for me that was quite unusual. For one thing, he approved it a month later, which is again crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think Lewinson went in and talked to him afterwards? Do you think there were some discussions after the meeting?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.108476422728502, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "1..1 just looked at him in astonishment. Paul Lewinson, who came up there with me to protect me, never said a word, he just walked out. But Solon Buck did something for me that was quite unusual. For one thing, he approved it a month later, which is again crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think Lewinson went in and talked to him afterwards? Do you think there were some discussions after the meeting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Possible. I think Lewinson, as long as he was there, promoted me, promoted my interests without telling me what he was doing. Lewinson's attitude was he will not take on a fight he can't win. But once he takes on a fight, he will never give up until he does win. And that resulted in incidentally one of the big reorganizations in the Archives. Paul Lewinson, that's another story. Anyway, he did me an odd favor. When I was in the Army, and I had a pretty lousy reputation; I always called myself the Army's worst, worst engineer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was clumsy. I always was clumsy and I didn't like being pushed around with a lot of nonsense and I showed it. So I was on the carpet, practically every day, but a telegram came from Solon Buck to thank me for my work on the records, the Book on records of World War I and the agencies and records of the First World War. He thanked me for my contributions and here I was way down on the scale. But it so impressed the top sergeant (Laughing)"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That he treated you differently?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.405526447812967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was clumsy. I always was clumsy and I didn't like being pushed around with a lot of nonsense and I showed it. So I was on the carpet, practically every day, but a telegram came from Solon Buck to thank me for my work on the records, the Book on records of World War I and the agencies and records of the First World War. He thanked me for my contributions and here I was way down on the scale. But it so impressed the top sergeant (Laughing)"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That he treated you differently?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it changed his attitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even thought I was told I would never get a promotion because I, an odd story. I got angry at a Lieutenant. It was before D-Day and we were working around the clock. He said I was not working fast enough and I raised my fist to him. And he went to top sergeant and said never give Fishbein a promotion. Anyway it resulted in my being given the task of lecturing the company on the Japanese military. At the very end, we didn't know it at the time, we were due to go to the Pacific directly from Europe to the Pacific, without stopping in United States. I didn't find that out until much later. So I told them, How long do I lecture? They said 3 hours. I lectured for 2 ½ hours, which was a good lesson to me; that I was always shy on talking. Now I talk too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning experience. It showed that you could."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.339473830903296, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it changed his attitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even thought I was told I would never get a promotion because I, an odd story. I got angry at a Lieutenant. It was before D-Day and we were working around the clock. He said I was not working fast enough and I raised my fist to him. And he went to top sergeant and said never give Fishbein a promotion. Anyway it resulted in my being given the task of lecturing the company on the Japanese military. At the very end, we didn't know it at the time, we were due to go to the Pacific directly from Europe to the Pacific, without stopping in United States. I didn't find that out until much later. So I told them, How long do I lecture? They said 3 hours. I lectured for 2 ½ hours, which was a good lesson to me; that I was always shy on talking. Now I talk too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning experience. It showed that you could."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well anyway. All these are side issues, I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, this is very good. Well, let me, you have mentioned several times Archivists of the United States and other top management that you have had. And you have discussed some of your relationships with them. Who, in your opinion was the best Archivist of the United States during your tenure?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.377193145448107, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even thought I was told I would never get a promotion because I, an odd story. I got angry at a Lieutenant. It was before D-Day and we were working around the clock. He said I was not working fast enough and I raised my fist to him. And he went to top sergeant and said never give Fishbein a promotion. Anyway it resulted in my being given the task of lecturing the company on the Japanese military. At the very end, we didn't know it at the time, we were due to go to the Pacific directly from Europe to the Pacific, without stopping in United States. I didn't find that out until much later. So I told them, How long do I lecture? They said 3 hours. I lectured for 2 ½ hours, which was a good lesson to me; that I was always shy on talking. Now I talk too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning experience. It showed that you could."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well anyway. All these are side issues, I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, this is very good. Well, let me, you have mentioned several times Archivists of the United States and other top management that you have had. And you have discussed some of your relationships with them. Who, in your opinion was the best Archivist of the United States during your tenure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd have to say Bob Bahmer. He was no scholar and he knew it, but he was a good manager. I think that distinction is of course the ideal would be to be a good scholar and a good manager. But the Archives was never quite fortunate in that way. My opinion of most of them was not very great. But Bob Bahmer knew what everybody was doing and he'd get after those who weren't fulfilling and again it was regardless of their education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was judging them for the work they did."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.419103494942341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well anyway. All these are side issues, I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, this is very good. Well, let me, you have mentioned several times Archivists of the United States and other top management that you have had. And you have discussed some of your relationships with them. Who, in your opinion was the best Archivist of the United States during your tenure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd have to say Bob Bahmer. He was no scholar and he knew it, but he was a good manager. I think that distinction is of course the ideal would be to be a good scholar and a good manager. But the Archives was never quite fortunate in that way. My opinion of most of them was not very great. But Bob Bahmer knew what everybody was doing and he'd get after those who weren't fulfilling and again it was regardless of their education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was judging them for the work they did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the work they did and he worked closely with Wayne Grover. That combination was very interesting. I don't know if I should go into that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I would like to hear a little about that."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.021226105491491, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd have to say Bob Bahmer. He was no scholar and he knew it, but he was a good manager. I think that distinction is of course the ideal would be to be a good scholar and a good manager. But the Archives was never quite fortunate in that way. My opinion of most of them was not very great. But Bob Bahmer knew what everybody was doing and he'd get after those who weren't fulfilling and again it was regardless of their education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was judging them for the work they did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the work they did and he worked closely with Wayne Grover. That combination was very interesting. I don't know if I should go into that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I would like to hear a little about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were both, they went from the Archives to the Pentagon during the war. Wayne Grover married Senator Johnson's daughter. Senator Johnson was a top figure in the Senate. That's what I call a nice marriage, and so he had it made. He was really a nice guy, a good guy. So he and Bob Bah mer was his assistant there and when Grover became Archivist of the U.S., Bob Bah mer had the same position as Deputy Archivist of the United States. Wayne Grover at the end apologized when he retired he apologized to the staff, because he hadn't spent enough time in the Archives. He had spent all of his time developing the regional archival system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that was his contribution."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.690251228323878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the work they did and he worked closely with Wayne Grover. That combination was very interesting. I don't know if I should go into that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I would like to hear a little about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were both, they went from the Archives to the Pentagon during the war. Wayne Grover married Senator Johnson's daughter. Senator Johnson was a top figure in the Senate. That's what I call a nice marriage, and so he had it made. He was really a nice guy, a good guy. So he and Bob Bah mer was his assistant there and when Grover became Archivist of the U.S., Bob Bah mer had the same position as Deputy Archivist of the United States. Wayne Grover at the end apologized when he retired he apologized to the staff, because he hadn't spent enough time in the Archives. He had spent all of his time developing the regional archival system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that was his contribution."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so he left administration to Bob Bahmer and I found I got along pretty well with Bahmer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that helped Bob when he became Archivist, because he had been Deputy and he had done .."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.43361247591542, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were both, they went from the Archives to the Pentagon during the war. Wayne Grover married Senator Johnson's daughter. Senator Johnson was a top figure in the Senate. That's what I call a nice marriage, and so he had it made. He was really a nice guy, a good guy. So he and Bob Bah mer was his assistant there and when Grover became Archivist of the U.S., Bob Bah mer had the same position as Deputy Archivist of the United States. Wayne Grover at the end apologized when he retired he apologized to the staff, because he hadn't spent enough time in the Archives. He had spent all of his time developing the regional archival system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that was his contribution."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so he left administration to Bob Bahmer and I found I got along pretty well with Bahmer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that helped Bob when he became Archivist, because he had been Deputy and he had done .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He knew the agency"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.2595694176838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so he left administration to Bob Bahmer and I found I got along pretty well with Bahmer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that helped Bob when he became Archivist, because he had been Deputy and he had done .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He knew the agency"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was really running the agency anyway. He was disliked because he was tough on people who didn't measure up and Bob; not that Bob Bah mer was always right, who is? But I found in general he had good judgement, Good decode a farmer? He could be pretty tough, but sometimes you have to be tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I agree. There are times when that has to happen. It is interesting that you have selected one person out of the group and that is nice to hear because for me, I came on when"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.066188241870888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He knew the agency"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was really running the agency anyway. He was disliked because he was tough on people who didn't measure up and Bob; not that Bob Bah mer was always right, who is? But I found in general he had good judgement, Good decode a farmer? He could be pretty tough, but sometimes you have to be tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I agree. There are times when that has to happen. It is interesting that you have selected one person out of the group and that is nice to hear because for me, I came on when"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bert?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, so I knew Bert from there on, so I know others by name, but that's all so that is nice to have"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.962431379856541, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was really running the agency anyway. He was disliked because he was tough on people who didn't measure up and Bob; not that Bob Bah mer was always right, who is? But I found in general he had good judgement, Good decode a farmer? He could be pretty tough, but sometimes you have to be tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I agree. There are times when that has to happen. It is interesting that you have selected one person out of the group and that is nice to hear because for me, I came on when"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bert?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, so I knew Bert from there on, so I know others by name, but that's all so that is nice to have"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought Bert was a disaster. That my shock you, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did you think he was a disaster?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.958257088729491, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bert?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, so I knew Bert from there on, so I know others by name, but that's all so that is nice to have"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought Bert was a disaster. That my shock you, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did you think he was a disaster?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He never really understood what was going on internally. And he made, he dealt very poorly with most of the staff. I'm not talking socially. Socially he was great, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When decisions had to be made he couldn't... .."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.064730098588322, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought Bert was a disaster. That my shock you, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did you think he was a disaster?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He never really understood what was going on internally. And he made, he dealt very poorly with most of the staff. I'm not talking socially. Socially he was great, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When decisions had to be made he couldn't... .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he surrounded himself with a few cronies and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That hurt the Archives in your view."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.294144553987024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He never really understood what was going on internally. And he made, he dealt very poorly with most of the staff. I'm not talking socially. Socially he was great, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When decisions had to be made he couldn't... .."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he surrounded himself with a few cronies and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That hurt the Archives in your view."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it came to a head and I had a fight with him. I don't know if you want to hear about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would like to hear about it."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.47425253578645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it came to a head and I had a fight with him. I don't know if you want to hear about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would like to hear about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what happened was, there was, I don't know the details. There was some task that involved foreign travel. A consultant, I think was Soviet Union or something like that. know something about Eastern Europe, maybe Poland. Anyway there was one person highly qualified to do that and everyone thought that certainly Bert Rhoads would give him the opportunity. Instead he picked one of his cronies, who knew nothing about the task. Well, they filed a petition, they organized a petition of complaint, saying that so and so should have been given that assignment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "assignment. And they came to me and I knew nothing about the guy. I knew him by name and not that much. And they briefly told me what it was and I signed the petition. Bert Rhoads called me in and reamed me. He said, \"In your position to sign a petition like this.\" I said, \"Bert, let me tell you. You have surrounded yourself with these cronies. You don't have no idea of what 's going on internally. I signed it as my way of protesting to you.\" So that was a fight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That really was a fight. He"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.749169484207167, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what happened was, there was, I don't know the details. There was some task that involved foreign travel. A consultant, I think was Soviet Union or something like that. know something about Eastern Europe, maybe Poland. Anyway there was one person highly qualified to do that and everyone thought that certainly Bert Rhoads would give him the opportunity. Instead he picked one of his cronies, who knew nothing about the task. Well, they filed a petition, they organized a petition of complaint, saying that so and so should have been given that assignment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "assignment. And they came to me and I knew nothing about the guy. I knew him by name and not that much. And they briefly told me what it was and I signed the petition. Bert Rhoads called me in and reamed me. He said, \"In your position to sign a petition like this.\" I said, \"Bert, let me tell you. You have surrounded yourself with these cronies. You don't have no idea of what 's going on internally. I signed it as my way of protesting to you.\" So that was a fight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That really was a fight. He"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And socially we were great. He was a nice guy. Bert even got along well with his wife. She was a nice woman. So that affected me in several ways, but, not badly, because for some reason he was afraid of me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of your standing?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.054632760230186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "assignment. And they came to me and I knew nothing about the guy. I knew him by name and not that much. And they briefly told me what it was and I signed the petition. Bert Rhoads called me in and reamed me. He said, \"In your position to sign a petition like this.\" I said, \"Bert, let me tell you. You have surrounded yourself with these cronies. You don't have no idea of what 's going on internally. I signed it as my way of protesting to you.\" So that was a fight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That really was a fight. He"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And socially we were great. He was a nice guy. Bert even got along well with his wife. She was a nice woman. So that affected me in several ways, but, not badly, because for some reason he was afraid of me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of your standing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He thought I had connections. It came up not long after, there was at the American Historical Association. I met, I remember it was meeting in New York and I didn't go. And they were raising questions about, can the National Archives meet our needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there was no one there to respond?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 14.505147511366873, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And socially we were great. He was a nice guy. Bert even got along well with his wife. She was a nice woman. So that affected me in several ways, but, not badly, because for some reason he was afraid of me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of your standing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He thought I had connections. It came up not long after, there was at the American Historical Association. I met, I remember it was meeting in New York and I didn't go. And they were raising questions about, can the National Archives meet our needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there was no one there to respond?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that included electronic records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.339052790407637, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He thought I had connections. It came up not long after, there was at the American Historical Association. I met, I remember it was meeting in New York and I didn't go. And they were raising questions about, can the National Archives meet our needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there was no one there to respond?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that included electronic records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was a Professor Lieberman, I think, I forgot the University in Connecticut. He said, \"You don't have to worry, appraisal is being handled very well.\" Bert Rhoads never told me. I had to find out from another searcher. So he thought I had these connections. They couldn't have done anything for me. Bert Rhoads should have known they couldn't do anything for me if I was mistreated. But it came to a head when he very happily abolished the Appraisal Division. But then, he called me in. He says, \"Meyer, what job do you want?\" I thought, \"Gee, asking me after we had a fight.\" So he was kind of afraid. So I said, \"Well Jane Smith is head of Civil Archives Division. That's my, baby, but there is a vacancy_ in Military Archives Division. So I'll take it.\" That is how I got the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've spent most of the time talking about your work."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.26561421156404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that included electronic records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was a Professor Lieberman, I think, I forgot the University in Connecticut. He said, \"You don't have to worry, appraisal is being handled very well.\" Bert Rhoads never told me. I had to find out from another searcher. So he thought I had these connections. They couldn't have done anything for me. Bert Rhoads should have known they couldn't do anything for me if I was mistreated. But it came to a head when he very happily abolished the Appraisal Division. But then, he called me in. He says, \"Meyer, what job do you want?\" I thought, \"Gee, asking me after we had a fight.\" So he was kind of afraid. So I said, \"Well Jane Smith is head of Civil Archives Division. That's my, baby, but there is a vacancy_ in Military Archives Division. So I'll take it.\" That is how I got the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've spent most of the time talking about your work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no no. This was been absolutely wonderful. What I am doing is, I am just framing because the next thing we want to do as a transition from work to talk we are talking about professional. How are you doing? Because you have been talking for more than an hour, are you"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.295126901737822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was a Professor Lieberman, I think, I forgot the University in Connecticut. He said, \"You don't have to worry, appraisal is being handled very well.\" Bert Rhoads never told me. I had to find out from another searcher. So he thought I had these connections. They couldn't have done anything for me. Bert Rhoads should have known they couldn't do anything for me if I was mistreated. But it came to a head when he very happily abolished the Appraisal Division. But then, he called me in. He says, \"Meyer, what job do you want?\" I thought, \"Gee, asking me after we had a fight.\" So he was kind of afraid. So I said, \"Well Jane Smith is head of Civil Archives Division. That's my, baby, but there is a vacancy_ in Military Archives Division. So I'll take it.\" That is how I got the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've spent most of the time talking about your work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no no. This was been absolutely wonderful. What I am doing is, I am just framing because the next thing we want to do as a transition from work to talk we are talking about professional. How are you doing? Because you have been talking for more than an hour, are you"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sorry"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No! Why are you apologizing?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.439029890819802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no no. This was been absolutely wonderful. What I am doing is, I am just framing because the next thing we want to do as a transition from work to talk we are talking about professional. How are you doing? Because you have been talking for more than an hour, are you"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sorry"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No! Why are you apologizing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I blab too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is absolutely superb! Don't apologize at all. What I want to do is to talk a little bit about your professional development. Are you okay? Would you like a break or anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.710033212022001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sorry"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No! Why are you apologizing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I blab too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is absolutely superb! Don't apologize at all. What I want to do is to talk a little bit about your professional development. Are you okay? Would you like a break or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I am fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Terrific. You stayed involved in archives after your retirement: for example, your work on the restoration of Ellis Island. Talk a little about that and other archives issues that you continued to work on, once yo~ retired."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.10704144310288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well a friend of mine, we had not been in touch for a long time. Bellino had a doctorate, he came to me and he was interested in this movement to restore Ellis Island. He would like to have a little group in DC to back this. At that time it was an ad hoc group headed by the chancellor of the university, New Jersey. Anyway, so I said yes. I would use the archives to check on what we have on Ellis Island. I got to know Phil Lax, who was heading this up and then it was given official status by the Department of the Interior. One of their big projects was to have electronic access to immigrants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I said great idea. They had a contract with IBM that was very favorable. IBM thought it was such a good idea and good publicity for IBM, too. So eventually I became a sort of director of the Ellis Island Restoration Commission. And I am still director. I haven't done a darn thing. They still correspond with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them worked very hard on this. But I just wrote them that now that I am blind I can't do much, but I really would like to be kept informed on the progress and they have done very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They have done well, haven't they?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.7856016034476445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I said great idea. They had a contract with IBM that was very favorable. IBM thought it was such a good idea and good publicity for IBM, too. So eventually I became a sort of director of the Ellis Island Restoration Commission. And I am still director. I haven't done a darn thing. They still correspond with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them worked very hard on this. But I just wrote them that now that I am blind I can't do much, but I really would like to be kept informed on the progress and they have done very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They have done well, haven't they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It is now called the Bob Hope Memorial. I didn't like the idea of giving it to Bob Hope, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did they choose Bob Hope? That doesn't make sense."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.539557337164049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them worked very hard on this. But I just wrote them that now that I am blind I can't do much, but I really would like to be kept informed on the progress and they have done very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They have done well, haven't they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It is now called the Bob Hope Memorial. I didn't like the idea of giving it to Bob Hope, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did they choose Bob Hope? That doesn't make sense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well he is an immigrant and he is a big name. That's simply that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the reason why."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.377285930182277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It is now called the Bob Hope Memorial. I didn't like the idea of giving it to Bob Hope, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did they choose Bob Hope? That doesn't make sense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well he is an immigrant and he is a big name. That's simply that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the reason why."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very simple. Of course Bob Hope is famous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think USO that's more of how I think of Bob Hope."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.308095477980308, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well he is an immigrant and he is a big name. That's simply that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the reason why."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very simple. Of course Bob Hope is famous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think USO that's more of how I think of Bob Hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not as much with Ellis Island and immigration."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.231217197755896, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very simple. Of course Bob Hope is famous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think USO that's more of how I think of Bob Hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not as much with Ellis Island and immigration."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they did a terrific job, I think. I haven't been there in a very long time on the Island. I did attend a few meetings in New York. Then I gave up. Getting to New York, I'd go to the meeting, come back the same day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can be tiring."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.14579688639544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not as much with Ellis Island and immigration."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they did a terrific job, I think. I haven't been there in a very long time on the Island. I did attend a few meetings in New York. Then I gave up. Getting to New York, I'd go to the meeting, come back the same day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can be tiring."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah and just to meet for a couple of hours. So I would take an early train. It was a good experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you been involved in other archive issues besides Ellis Island since you retired?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.161996540439377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they did a terrific job, I think. I haven't been there in a very long time on the Island. I did attend a few meetings in New York. Then I gave up. Getting to New York, I'd go to the meeting, come back the same day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can be tiring."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah and just to meet for a couple of hours. So I would take an early train. It was a good experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you been involved in other archive issues besides Ellis Island since you retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did some consulting. Somehow or other I never bothered to seek consulting jobs, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They came to you."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.846662822710419, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah and just to meet for a couple of hours. So I would take an early train. It was a good experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you been involved in other archive issues besides Ellis Island since you retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did some consulting. Somehow or other I never bothered to seek consulting jobs, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They came to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the National Archives Commission asked me to .. I did, since I was a graduate of American University. I did an inventory and then sort of an appraisal of American University records. It always disappointed me that Ernst Posner was so anxious for American University to take the lead in that area of university archives. The university never did. I tried to do it. I tried to push them into it, but they never took advantage of that once Posner retired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is too bad, because so much was done then teaching."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.60740313634491, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did some consulting. Somehow or other I never bothered to seek consulting jobs, but"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They came to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the National Archives Commission asked me to .. I did, since I was a graduate of American University. I did an inventory and then sort of an appraisal of American University records. It always disappointed me that Ernst Posner was so anxious for American University to take the lead in that area of university archives. The university never did. I tried to do it. I tried to push them into it, but they never took advantage of that once Posner retired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is too bad, because so much was done then teaching."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Posner was such a good friend of mine. I still miss him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was one ofthe bright lights."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.688152020178902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Posner was such a good friend of mine. I still miss him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was one ofthe bright lights."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. He was a fine gentleman and an excellent writer in English. He took a course in American Constitutional History at the University of Berlin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is fascinating"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3201689113098904, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. He was a fine gentleman and an excellent writer in English. He took a course in American Constitutional History at the University of Berlin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is fascinating"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Until they threw him into the concentration camp. That is a different story"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I would like to do is switch gears and talk about"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.0224099014554335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is fascinating"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Until they threw him into the concentration camp. That is a different story"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I would like to do is switch gears and talk about"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, this is good. This has been wonderful. While your career at the National Archives predates the founding of the Assembly, what do you know about the Assembly and how do you feel?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.669641853648683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, this is good. This has been wonderful. While your career at the National Archives predates the founding of the Assembly, what do you know about the Assembly and how do you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nothing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was an assembly established by Solon Buck. Where he would keep the staff informed about and talk about major issues. The assembly at that time was the complete staff. He also had small conferences of the professional archivists, where he would probe them on their ideas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it wasn't. It was more him pushing out information."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.632935392942981, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nothing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was an assembly established by Solon Buck. Where he would keep the staff informed about and talk about major issues. The assembly at that time was the complete staff. He also had small conferences of the professional archivists, where he would probe them on their ideas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it wasn't. It was more him pushing out information."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't trying, it wasn't a group coming together to try to improve the situation at the National Archives."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.892512830793804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't trying, it wasn't a group coming together to try to improve the situation at the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he did that with small groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, he did that pretty regularly. He would call them. This is one of the issues. What do you think? At least there he showed used good judgment. Saying what do you think? Most of them did not think at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. I know that you were very active."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.213903145326448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he did that with small groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, he did that pretty regularly. He would call them. This is one of the issues. What do you think? At least there he showed used good judgment. Saying what do you think? Most of them did not think at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. I know that you were very active."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I wasn't, I wasn't"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I was saying you were very active in the Society of American Archivists. Talk about your roles and responsibilities with SAA."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.571003494807163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, he did that pretty regularly. He would call them. This is one of the issues. What do you think? At least there he showed used good judgment. Saying what do you think? Most of them did not think at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. I know that you were very active."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I wasn't, I wasn't"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I was saying you were very active in the Society of American Archivists. Talk about your roles and responsibilities with SAA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Well that was an important part of my career. I still remember. I was coming back from lunch and one of the founders of the National Archives, I can't quite remember his name. At that time he was Editor of The American Archivist, said to me, \"Why don't you join the SAA? So I said quite seriously, \"I don't think they want me.\" I really meant that because these were professional archivists, you know. You had to be voted on to become a member."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a different situation back then."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.285189499761929, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Well that was an important part of my career. I still remember. I was coming back from lunch and one of the founders of the National Archives, I can't quite remember his name. At that time he was Editor of The American Archivist, said to me, \"Why don't you join the SAA? So I said quite seriously, \"I don't think they want me.\" I really meant that because these were professional archivists, you know. You had to be voted on to become a member."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a different situation back then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of, quite, quite different. So oh no, he says. You told me to apply and I applied. It took me a few months before I was approved at that time. And I did go to a meeting in Williamsburg at that time and I was completely ignored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Completely ignored"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that didn't stop you."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.316877221957698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of, quite, quite different. So oh no, he says. You told me to apply and I applied. It took me a few months before I was approved at that time. And I did go to a meeting in Williamsburg at that time and I was completely ignored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Completely ignored"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that didn't stop you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I then became active and it all ties in with Machine Readable Records and also business archives. What happened was Oliver Holmes was the one man chairman of the Business Archives Committee of SAA. When he got to a higher grade, he felt he couldn't continue in that position so he asked me to succeed him. So I was a one man head of a committee. At that time Business Archives had not really gotten a start. And then I did my essay on The History of Business Archives, had made some kind of impressions. And then the committee was expanded to cover business, labor and social organizations. So it got to be quite a large committee. It was a lot of fun chairing that. I had three little subgroups, one for business, one for labor, one for social organizations. Prepared papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they meet separately and they would come together?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.463196913286332, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Completely ignored"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that didn't stop you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I then became active and it all ties in with Machine Readable Records and also business archives. What happened was Oliver Holmes was the one man chairman of the Business Archives Committee of SAA. When he got to a higher grade, he felt he couldn't continue in that position so he asked me to succeed him. So I was a one man head of a committee. At that time Business Archives had not really gotten a start. And then I did my essay on The History of Business Archives, had made some kind of impressions. And then the committee was expanded to cover business, labor and social organizations. So it got to be quite a large committee. It was a lot of fun chairing that. I had three little subgroups, one for business, one for labor, one for social organizations. Prepared papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they meet separately and they would come together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes and I had them each prepare recommendations for organization of archives: to advise organizations on how they can establish archives. I don't know whatever happened to the papers we prepared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I am sure they are in the SAA archives."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.736885459207034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I then became active and it all ties in with Machine Readable Records and also business archives. What happened was Oliver Holmes was the one man chairman of the Business Archives Committee of SAA. When he got to a higher grade, he felt he couldn't continue in that position so he asked me to succeed him. So I was a one man head of a committee. At that time Business Archives had not really gotten a start. And then I did my essay on The History of Business Archives, had made some kind of impressions. And then the committee was expanded to cover business, labor and social organizations. So it got to be quite a large committee. It was a lot of fun chairing that. I had three little subgroups, one for business, one for labor, one for social organizations. Prepared papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they meet separately and they would come together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes and I had them each prepare recommendations for organization of archives: to advise organizations on how they can establish archives. I don't know whatever happened to the papers we prepared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I am sure they are in the SAA archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably buried somewhere. But it was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you continued. A lot of your work did focus on machine readable records because of the expertise."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.592435472163284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah, that was a key part: again circumstances. Ev Aldridge was sort of a one­ man chairman of the Machine-Readable Committee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they had a couple of people. But when he became, let's see was he retiring? For some reason he had to give it up. And he said, \"Well Meyer, you become chairman.\" Well, when I became chairman and the question came up at the International Council on Archives. \"We ought to look into this whole business ... \" They said we need a chairman of a task force to look into the implications for archives. So Morris Riegel, who was there said, \"Well Fishbein's chairing a committee on machine readable records. Okay, we will make him chairman of the task force.\" (Laughter)\n\nAgain circumstance you know. And that again quite changed my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the task force met in Spoleto Italy and prepared a study of ways of informing the archival community about all the issues concerning automation. -So it was supposed to be a one-meeting task force. They said we'll make it a continuing committee, so for 8 years I chaired the committee, what we called the Committee on Organization. Others called it the Committee on Data Processing. In fact that was the official designation: ICA-DP."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, and so you meet for"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.669673422423807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the task force met in Spoleto Italy and prepared a study of ways of informing the archival community about all the issues concerning automation. -So it was supposed to be a one-meeting task force. They said we'll make it a continuing committee, so for 8 years I chaired the committee, what we called the Committee on Organization. Others called it the Committee on Data Processing. In fact that was the official designation: ICA-DP."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, and so you meet for"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Met in Europe, met in Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got exposure"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.299637136026452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Met in Europe, met in Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got exposure"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this how you did your world travels, it was thru ICA?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.777374595584947, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got exposure"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this how you did your world travels, it was thru ICA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I can tell you what happened was when I was asked to be chairman, I asked, \"How am I going to get there?\" and Ernst Posner said, \"You are obliged to go.\" He was a real Prussian. Obliged to go. I said, \"The Archives is not going to do anything for me.\" So I applied for a grant and the Council of Library Resources, when they heard what it was all about said \"We will pay your expenses.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How nice! So you are probably one of the first people to look for other sources for funding for travel."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.428857525413514, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I can tell you what happened was when I was asked to be chairman, I asked, \"How am I going to get there?\" and Ernst Posner said, \"You are obliged to go.\" He was a real Prussian. Obliged to go. I said, \"The Archives is not going to do anything for me.\" So I applied for a grant and the Council of Library Resources, when they heard what it was all about said \"We will pay your expenses.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How nice! So you are probably one of the first people to look for other sources for funding for travel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not the only one. But in fact Morris Rieger, who became was really well known abroad more than in the United States got grants for himself. He was the one who made suggestions for me. The interesting part about that was Bert Rhoads was asked to designate a member of the Task Force. He said well Fishbein already is a member, so he should have paid my way, but that's another story. It was a great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is nothing. I understand now why people get mad at me because I am always apologizing. There is nothing to be sorry for at all. This has been absolutely wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8098416949039042, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not the only one. But in fact Morris Rieger, who became was really well known abroad more than in the United States got grants for himself. He was the one who made suggestions for me. The interesting part about that was Bert Rhoads was asked to designate a member of the Task Force. He said well Fishbein already is a member, so he should have paid my way, but that's another story. It was a great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is nothing. I understand now why people get mad at me because I am always apologizing. There is nothing to be sorry for at all. This has been absolutely wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am tying up my daughter, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have a few more questions. Your daughter said no. I think she is enjoying hearing all these stories as well, so not a problem. Okay. I am going to ask a few questions about the National Archives, your views about the Nation.al Archives. What do you feel are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives today?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.703508265313462, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am tying up my daughter, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have a few more questions. Your daughter said no. I think she is enjoying hearing all these stories as well, so not a problem. Okay. I am going to ask a few questions about the National Archives, your views about the Nation.al Archives. What do you feel are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The same"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The same?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The same as the day was I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are they?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.226120294792736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The same"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The same?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The same as the day was I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is making reasonable decisions on disposition of records. In one way it has become easier. So much thought given to it and experiences. On the other way, it's increasingly difficult. With the Imperial presidency and expanding bureaucracy, the problems get more demanding. Also the experiences that they are relying on were often very faulty. So this is my opinion of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's what I want."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.6956892164363735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The same as the day was I showed up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is making reasonable decisions on disposition of records. In one way it has become easier. So much thought given to it and experiences. On the other way, it's increasingly difficult. With the Imperial presidency and expanding bureaucracy, the problems get more demanding. Also the experiences that they are relying on were often very faulty. So this is my opinion of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's what I want."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't.be very specific, but I remember looking at they wanted to have an exact way of doing appraisal. Appraisal isn't a science, it's an art. You have a feel for it. Some people have it, some people don't. You have to make reasonable decisions in a reasonable amount of time. The people have told me, \"I can't do it.\" I said \"Fine, that's not your baby.\" They weren't able to make decisions in a reasonable amount of time. And my view, the big aim of appraisal, can you make 90% good opinions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I completely agree with you. I think there is an angst about that. There still is this discussion."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.686036069674534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't.be very specific, but I remember looking at they wanted to have an exact way of doing appraisal. Appraisal isn't a science, it's an art. You have a feel for it. Some people have it, some people don't. You have to make reasonable decisions in a reasonable amount of time. The people have told me, \"I can't do it.\" I said \"Fine, that's not your baby.\" They weren't able to make decisions in a reasonable amount of time. And my view, the big aim of appraisal, can you make 90% good opinions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I completely agree with you. I think there is an angst about that. There still is this discussion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It doesn't make any difference what the medium is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The medium. It's a special kind of a skill that you have or don't have. You can smell the problems. You shouldn't spend more than a few seconds on some decisions and then some you have to worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's a very, very good point. It sounds like from just the way you are speaking about this that the appraisal was one of the places that you really enjoyed being at."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.206706744082815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It doesn't make any difference what the medium is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The medium. It's a special kind of a skill that you have or don't have. You can smell the problems. You shouldn't spend more than a few seconds on some decisions and then some you have to worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's a very, very good point. It sounds like from just the way you are speaking about this that the appraisal was one of the places that you really enjoyed being at."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk to me about how you have enjoyed working at all the different places. What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career at NARA?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.7852297156475725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The medium. It's a special kind of a skill that you have or don't have. You can smell the problems. You shouldn't spend more than a few seconds on some decisions and then some you have to worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's a very, very good point. It sounds like from just the way you are speaking about this that the appraisal was one of the places that you really enjoyed being at."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk to me about how you have enjoyed working at all the different places. What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career at NARA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The most significant?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It could be a couple. It doesn't have to be just the one. It can be several."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.428033017386191, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk to me about how you have enjoyed working at all the different places. What would you say were the most significant turning points in your career at NARA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The most significant?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It could be a couple. It doesn't have to be just the one. It can be several."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were so many bounces."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting phrase."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.142258908206879, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The most significant?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It could be a couple. It doesn't have to be just the one. It can be several."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were so many bounces."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting phrase."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose, I suppose in a way. This is something that you would appreciate. suppose in a way it was electronic records, despite the fact that I was completely unqualified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who would be qualified to deal with electronic records? No one."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.583035689144294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose, I suppose in a way. This is something that you would appreciate. suppose in a way it was electronic records, despite the fact that I was completely unqualified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who would be qualified to deal with electronic records? No one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew nothing. I knew nothing. They had people come in. Ev Allridge got a staff together. This was the very beginnings. People who knew a little about electronics, but they weren't archivists-and so they went off in crazy directions. I knew nothing. I didn't have a computer, didn't use a computer until much later. In fact, I started out with my daughter giving, giving me her reject. That is literally true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I went around and I pounded the archivists. \"Pay attention, this I important,\" and I got a lot of resistance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I am not surprised."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.661843757269155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the State Department was talking about completely electronic control of all information. This was actually proposed. \"Oh no, you can't do that. You have to have the paper.\" I said, \"Why, you can't tell an agency to only have paper.\" And there was a great deal of resistance on that. I went over to State Department and looked into what they were doing. They were doing some good things. Of course, but they never achieved what they"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was pie in the sky stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was fascinating to me to actually sit down and figure out what archivists ought to do about it without knowing a darn thing about electronics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you set the precedent and so people started doing things about it. And we are still learning. There is no question, but it was because of you and your work that we are where we are today."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.624270841410173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was pie in the sky stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was fascinating to me to actually sit down and figure out what archivists ought to do about it without knowing a darn thing about electronics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you set the precedent and so people started doing things about it. And we are still learning. There is no question, but it was because of you and your work that we are where we are today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course it resulted in all kinds of changes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes it did."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.471412046011304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was fascinating to me to actually sit down and figure out what archivists ought to do about it without knowing a darn thing about electronics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you set the precedent and so people started doing things about it. And we are still learning. There is no question, but it was because of you and your work that we are where we are today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course it resulted in all kinds of changes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes it did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, it caused an immediate promotion at the Archives. Lou Douter. We were all appraisers, a whole group of appraisers, he made me Assistant Division Chief and there was a protest that I was unqualified because I was too junior. He said, Lou Douter said \"Well he's the one who did something about machine readable records.\" He just said that flatly and that's it. Again, circumstance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You made a point that you went over to see what was going on with State Department."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.30156894001256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course it resulted in all kinds of changes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes it did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, it caused an immediate promotion at the Archives. Lou Douter. We were all appraisers, a whole group of appraisers, he made me Assistant Division Chief and there was a protest that I was unqualified because I was too junior. He said, Lou Douter said \"Well he's the one who did something about machine readable records.\" He just said that flatly and that's it. Again, circumstance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You made a point that you went over to see what was going on with State Department."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ran around a lot, cause I didn't know anything about it. And I went to Ann Arbor to look into the operation there, where they had this tremendous files of punch cards. They were going to convert them to tape. I got some good relations there and I tried to inform myself as much as I could by reading, just running around. I just ran around a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you taught yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.223965488902843, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, it caused an immediate promotion at the Archives. Lou Douter. We were all appraisers, a whole group of appraisers, he made me Assistant Division Chief and there was a protest that I was unqualified because I was too junior. He said, Lou Douter said \"Well he's the one who did something about machine readable records.\" He just said that flatly and that's it. Again, circumstance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You made a point that you went over to see what was going on with State Department."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ran around a lot, cause I didn't know anything about it. And I went to Ann Arbor to look into the operation there, where they had this tremendous files of punch cards. They were going to convert them to tape. I got some good relations there and I tried to inform myself as much as I could by reading, just running around. I just ran around a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you taught yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just didn't know what the problem was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you were dealing with various agencies, what do you think that NARA's reputation is with other federal agencies?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.918475912225732, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just didn't know what the problem was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you were dealing with various agencies, what do you think that NARA's reputation is with other federal agencies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I think there is considerable appreciation, because we were helping solve some of their problems. They were piling records into basements, filling corridors with records that they didn't know what do with. And other times we would get resistance. And I got resistance on electronic records of all things. There was a meeting of the heads of Records Management and Ev Allredge says to me \"Why don't you come along. Give a little talk.\" So I went there and I had all things prepared in my mind, what I would say. What happened Ev Aldridge said exactly the same thing what I had in my mind. I had nothing to say, so what I did was I said, \"You've got to get on the ball, you've got to do something about it. \"Some of you,\" I said, \"are not doing your job as far as electronic records.\" And boy did I get a reaction, particularly from the guy from the Interior Department."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He got so angry with me. I said, \"Well, this is it.\" I said, \"You are either going to get involved or you are going to be completely ignored by your agency. So"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As time went on and you were working with agencies and with machine­ readable, electronic records, should NARA have done things differently? Or were we dealing with the agencies in the right way? Or should we have been doing something else?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.01046408916757, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He got so angry with me. I said, \"Well, this is it.\" I said, \"You are either going to get involved or you are going to be completely ignored by your agency. So"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As time went on and you were working with agencies and with machine­ readable, electronic records, should NARA have done things differently? Or were we dealing with the agencies in the right way? Or should we have been doing something else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's hard to say Fynnette, because we moved something into something new and we had to, we had to act for one thing. That is the key point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We couldn't stall around and have it taken away from the Archives. And so you have to develop systems for surveying records and so to say we did it well or not, we acted so people knew that we were involved and they can come to the Archives, even though we didn't have any answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then in some ways you're answering my next q~estion, but I want to expand upon it a little bit. What does NARA do right? We act when necessary it sounds like. That is one of the things. But what other things do you think NARA does right?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.233848987963967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's hard to say Fynnette, because we moved something into something new and we had to, we had to act for one thing. That is the key point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We couldn't stall around and have it taken away from the Archives. And so you have to develop systems for surveying records and so to say we did it well or not, we acted so people knew that we were involved and they can come to the Archives, even though we didn't have any answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then in some ways you're answering my next q~estion, but I want to expand upon it a little bit. What does NARA do right? We act when necessary it sounds like. That is one of the things. But what other things do you think NARA does right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they did pretty well on the problem of access. There was resistance to making certain information available. I think most archivists did the good fight to have maximum reasonable access, knowing what should be kept confidential, but not to hide stuff that should not be confidential. I think the Archives imperfectly, of course, but I think they did it pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their heart is in the right place?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.593165542182184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We couldn't stall around and have it taken away from the Archives. And so you have to develop systems for surveying records and so to say we did it well or not, we acted so people knew that we were involved and they can come to the Archives, even though we didn't have any answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then in some ways you're answering my next q~estion, but I want to expand upon it a little bit. What does NARA do right? We act when necessary it sounds like. That is one of the things. But what other things do you think NARA does right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they did pretty well on the problem of access. There was resistance to making certain information available. I think most archivists did the good fight to have maximum reasonable access, knowing what should be kept confidential, but not to hide stuff that should not be confidential. I think the Archives imperfectly, of course, but I think they did it pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their heart is in the right place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that is exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And then I understand that you have been involved with some pretty interesting cases that I think it is the Rosenberg."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.103517269091316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they did pretty well on the problem of access. There was resistance to making certain information available. I think most archivists did the good fight to have maximum reasonable access, knowing what should be kept confidential, but not to hide stuff that should not be confidential. I think the Archives imperfectly, of course, but I think they did it pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their heart is in the right place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that is exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And then I understand that you have been involved with some pretty interesting cases that I think it is the Rosenberg."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rosenberg."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me a little about those cases."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.599107976581, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh its .. well I did an article on precedent for electronic records as legal evidence because the case hadn't come up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And now that's all they talk. It's the only thing they talk about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so I wrote an article about the precedent, an 1840 case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I have forgotten what the title is. It was a case a freed black man in Delaware had done some work for a big landowner, a powerful figure in Delaware and was never pa,id for his work. And he was an illiterate. So he had his, he recorded his data on a stick, by putting notches on a stick. So there were two prime lawyers in that case. One very important, this is 1840, took his case pro bono, took the black mari's case pro bono. And there was and it odd because there one was Yale and one was Harvard. I remember that. Took the case and it revolved around, is the stick evidence? And the question was, did you alter the notches after the incident, your work? No, he did it just as he finished the job, he put some notches. So the decision was that this was a business record and admissible as evidence. And the black man won his case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's incredible, that's wonderful"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.22123108509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so I wrote an article about the precedent, an 1840 case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I have forgotten what the title is. It was a case a freed black man in Delaware had done some work for a big landowner, a powerful figure in Delaware and was never pa,id for his work. And he was an illiterate. So he had his, he recorded his data on a stick, by putting notches on a stick. So there were two prime lawyers in that case. One very important, this is 1840, took his case pro bono, took the black mari's case pro bono. And there was and it odd because there one was Yale and one was Harvard. I remember that. Took the case and it revolved around, is the stick evidence? And the question was, did you alter the notches after the incident, your work? No, he did it just as he finished the job, he put some notches. So the decision was that this was a business record and admissible as evidence. And the black man won his case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's incredible, that's wonderful"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was. Fascinating to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, well 1. One of the things that has been noted, that you had been a consultant to the FBI."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.0687869, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Emma Goldman, yeah. See what happened was, I don't know if you are interested in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good, well I got a call from New York, that when Emma Goldman was arrested she had been the head of a group of players. You know, put on theater and they wanted to know what happened to those theater records. And they never got a reply from the FBI. So I said okay. I went to the FBI and I said; \"What's the problem? You've got this request. Why don't you answer it?\" He says \"Well why don't you look?\" He says, \"We'll give you all the papers, copies on microfilm of all of Emma Goldman's, we have on Emma Goldman. There is no reference to this theater.\" So I said, \"Well, why are you sitting on all of this old stuff, you know just give it to the Archives with some cut-off date. \" The cut­ off date they chose was J. Edgar become Director of the .."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the FBI. So he says, \"Well, I will. Fishbein, you want it, take it! I've got a thousand reels of film.\" Laughter"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is incredible."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.31949, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the FBI. So he says, \"Well, I will. Fishbein, you want it, take it! I've got a thousand reels of film.\" Laughter"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is incredible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That included the index."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went through the, I examined the quality. I was just fascinated by some of this stuff they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is remarkable. There have been so many times in which you have been there are the right place and you've been able to"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That included the index."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went through the, I examined the quality. I was just fascinated by some of this stuff they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is remarkable. There have been so many times in which you have been there are the right place and you've been able to"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, all accidents. Laughter"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright, one and I have you were also an adjunct professor at American University. Do did you work closely with Posner at that point? Is that when you knew Posner?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.629, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went through the, I examined the quality. I was just fascinated by some of this stuff they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is remarkable. There have been so many times in which you have been there are the right place and you've been able to"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, all accidents. Laughter"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright, one and I have you were also an adjunct professor at American University. Do did you work closely with Posner at that point? Is that when you knew Posner?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I became, you know"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You became a professor."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I became, you know"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You became a professor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, adj~nct professor, when Posner retired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took over his course for two or three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you enjoy the teaching?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, adj~nct professor, when Posner retired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took over his course for two or three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you enjoy the teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think I wasn't easy on the students though. I demanded that they come exactly on time. I don't know why. Laughter\n\nIn fact I reamed one at the first session. I says, \"I start m classes on time, so he apologized. And I said, \"Well here is a piece of paper. Tell me where you work and your phone number.\" He was a member of Congress"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness!"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took over his course for two or three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you enjoy the teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think I wasn't easy on the students though. I demanded that they come exactly on time. I don't know why. Laughter\n\nIn fact I reamed one at the first session. I says, \"I start m classes on time, so he apologized. And I said, \"Well here is a piece of paper. Tell me where you work and your phone number.\" He was a member of Congress"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I got good relations with him later: very nice guy. He gave up. He said this job wasn't worth it. He said he had a big family. He was from Des Moines. But he was a very dedicated guy. He really worked hard. He said, \"This job isn't worth it.\" He gave up. Side item, unrelated to"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, these all adds to everything. I have asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything I have left out? Is there anything you want to add to this?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think I wasn't easy on the students though. I demanded that they come exactly on time. I don't know why. Laughter\n\nIn fact I reamed one at the first session. I says, \"I start m classes on time, so he apologized. And I said, \"Well here is a piece of paper. Tell me where you work and your phone number.\" He was a member of Congress"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I got good relations with him later: very nice guy. He gave up. He said this job wasn't worth it. He said he had a big family. He was from Des Moines. But he was a very dedicated guy. He really worked hard. He said, \"This job isn't worth it.\" He gave up. Side item, unrelated to"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, these all adds to everything. I have asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything I have left out? Is there anything you want to add to this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I already talked too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No you haven't. You haven't talked enough. We can't thank you enough."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I got good relations with him later: very nice guy. He gave up. He said this job wasn't worth it. He said he had a big family. He was from Des Moines. But he was a very dedicated guy. He really worked hard. He said, \"This job isn't worth it.\" He gave up. Side item, unrelated to"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, these all adds to everything. I have asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything I have left out? Is there anything you want to add to this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I already talked too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No you haven't. You haven't talked enough. We can't thank you enough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Letting us talk about your career. Thank you so much again. You have enhanced the collection with your stories. It's been a pleasure."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00009:393", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I already talked too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No you haven't. You haven't talked enough. We can't thank you enough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Letting us talk about your career. Thank you so much again. You have enhanced the collection with your stories. It's been a pleasure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some people are not going to like it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's okay, that's alright."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00245:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 49.38902176657835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had given it no thought. I was doing the LM Apollo activities and was approached with this as something that needed to be done, and was asked to go do that. So, no, it wasn’t anything that I had thought about at all. But then once I got over there, it was very interesting. The complement of experiments covered the broad range of food and nutrition, bloodwork, weight gain and loss, stress on the cardiovascular system. There was a lower-body negative-pressure experiment that stressed the heart, and there was a thing called a vector cardiogram, which monitored heart activity, vestibular functions, sleep functions. So it was an array of very interesting kinds of experiments.\\n\\n The crew did weigh themselves and the samples that they were preserving by—you can’t weigh yourself in zero gravity, but they had an oscillating chair. There’s a relationship between mass and period of an oscillation, so they’d get themselves in this chair and it would oscillate, and they could end up, in effect, weighing themselves. So they had a chair for themselves and then they had a smaller one for weighing samples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the first Skylab launched and they had the problem with the shield and then there was a concern because it was heating up and with the experiments and that sort of thing, can you talk about that and how that was dealt with as far as from the experimental side?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a lot of concern, and there wasn’t anything anybody could really do other than get the shield up, but based on the temperatures and the analysis in terms of what would be affected or not, it was determined that things looked like they were going to be all right. We didn’t have any active part in being able to do anything about that, other than look at the data and see. That was mostly the medical folks, because it was the food that they were really worried about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the first crew, were you involved with them and their first mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The five teams that were formed, we all supported all three Skylab flights for their durations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was the first time, of course, NASA had dealt with true long-duration space flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00245:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 54.87669085175372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a lot of concern, and there wasn’t anything anybody could really do other than get the shield up, but based on the temperatures and the analysis in terms of what would be affected or not, it was determined that things looked like they were going to be all right. We didn’t have any active part in being able to do anything about that, other than look at the data and see. That was mostly the medical folks, because it was the food that they were really worried about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the first crew, were you involved with them and their first mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The five teams that were formed, we all supported all three Skylab flights for their durations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was the first time, of course, NASA had dealt with true long-duration space flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the Control Room and the teams had to be formed for that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00245:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 60.97410094639302, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The five teams that were formed, we all supported all three Skylab flights for their durations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was the first time, of course, NASA had dealt with true long-duration space flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the Control Room and the teams had to be formed for that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about the difference between Apollo and Skylab and how things were set up?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00245:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 34, "return_to_go": 92.91697467910205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’ve already covered that, in that the medical aspects of what was going on with the crew was separate, and we only were affected by that in terms of what the crew could or could not do each day and what that meant in terms of what experiments needed to be scheduled and how the following day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As far as what was learned from Skylab and what you dealt with specifically, is there anything specific you feel was a significant accomplishment with what you dealt with, the experiments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of that data was a brand-new learning experience for the PIs [Principle Investigators]. They seemed to be extremely happy with the kind of data they were getting in the samples that came back. It taught them all kinds of new things about bone loss and vestibular function and how the body reacts to zero-G. I’m not a medical experimenter, so I didn’t have as much of an appreciation for all that as they did, but we did our job in terms of getting them that data, and they were just very happy with what they got. It established a database that I think has become very important in terms of long-duration space flight. Of course, the equipment’s gotten better and there’s a lot more technology involved, but this was a great start for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any other thoughts or memories about Skylab that you’d like to share?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. It was a long, long time of a lot of Control Center operations, but I think back on it as being a pleasant experience from a standpoint of being able to do Control Center operations and being able to get that done. I enjoyed that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you transition to Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00245:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 81.48651912666101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I did not go to any of the launches. For the early flights, we were doing this analytical kind of work. We weren’t really in the mainstream of getting launches put together. In fact, over my career, I was actually down there for one launch. I didn’t go to launches, tended not to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were working on the ALT [Approach and Landing Test] program, did you see any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I sure didn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else on those early flights pre-\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n [accident] you’d like to talk about, or anything else you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n and how that affected what you were doing? Of course, obviously it stopped the flights for a while."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00245:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say two things. One of them was Apollo 13 and the whole activity associated with that flight recovery, and the other thing would be the\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n accident aftermath and the data and record handling working group responsibility getting that on one day and having to have all those policies and people working in some kind of concert. That was a challenge. After having done that intense work for several months and then less intense but ongoing for more months, is part of what, I figured out later on, helped to create that sense of weariness. But that was an enormous challenge, that one. So I think those two things are what stand out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, I’m going to see if Rebecca and Jennifer have any questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have one, and it’s about\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n . I guess it’s a two-part. Did you have any input from the Legal office here at the Center or from NASA Headquarters that told you or to help you guide on what to do with the data that you were collecting? And, was there a lot of data coming in from the field, from the recovery efforts, that you were having to deal with as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Last question first. The debris data from the Mishap Response Team out in the field, that was not part of the working group. That, by and large, went directly to KSC, and that was under the control of another group of folks. So I did not do debris. And with respect to the Legal Office, yes, indeed. The Legal Office was one of the offices that I consulted with in terms of the data, government obligations with respect to that data, the repository, function and obligations with respect to that. So, yes, Legal was involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that maybe you want to mention before we go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.592421088757053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was all Outward Bound, had nothing to do with cooperatives. You know, it was hiking, rappelling off a dam, and learning some Spanish and just stretching your physical balance and what you could do. And then we went to Milwaukee for three months. That was where we went for our country training and that was OK. We stayed in sort of a building that looked like sort of modeled after the U.N. and there was more classroom stuff and this was kind of boring at times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you learn Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I picked up a little more of the Spanish. I was better than most because I had an exposure to Spanish, so I knew the basic rudiments of it and I could speak a little of it. But I wouldn't, you know, I mean, it wasn't until I got to Colombia I was able to speak Spanish and I can. Well, let me digress for a second. I got so, you know, you try to learn a language, you learn the grammar and then you learn little phrases here and there. And when I got to Colombia, I was still trying to learn stuff and I was in one site, Manizales. This other guy, Archie, was at another site down the road. And so Archie, when Archie spoke, he mumbled, and you could barely understand half of what he said in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when he started to speak Spanish, people understood about half of what he said. And then it occurred to me, here I was, because at one point I remember talking to some peasant guy pulling a cart full of stuff in my best Spanish, and he seemed to not understand what I was saying. So then I thought, well, why don't I just speak faster and mumble a little? And maybe that'll be better. So that was what I did. I started speaking faster and not worrying about how it was coming out. And it was like I went to a different realm of Spanish and became much. By the time, you know, I became fairly fluent. And so I always benefited from Archie's counseling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you were just using the language as opposed to studying."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 28.43602343195228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I picked up a little more of the Spanish. I was better than most because I had an exposure to Spanish, so I knew the basic rudiments of it and I could speak a little of it. But I wouldn't, you know, I mean, it wasn't until I got to Colombia I was able to speak Spanish and I can. Well, let me digress for a second. I got so, you know, you try to learn a language, you learn the grammar and then you learn little phrases here and there. And when I got to Colombia, I was still trying to learn stuff and I was in one site, Manizales. This other guy, Archie, was at another site down the road. And so Archie, when Archie spoke, he mumbled, and you could barely understand half of what he said in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when he started to speak Spanish, people understood about half of what he said. And then it occurred to me, here I was, because at one point I remember talking to some peasant guy pulling a cart full of stuff in my best Spanish, and he seemed to not understand what I was saying. So then I thought, well, why don't I just speak faster and mumble a little? And maybe that'll be better. So that was what I did. I started speaking faster and not worrying about how it was coming out. And it was like I went to a different realm of Spanish and became much. By the time, you know, I became fairly fluent. And so I always benefited from Archie's counseling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you were just using the language as opposed to studying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is Colombian Spanish fast?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.92891492439142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when he started to speak Spanish, people understood about half of what he said. And then it occurred to me, here I was, because at one point I remember talking to some peasant guy pulling a cart full of stuff in my best Spanish, and he seemed to not understand what I was saying. So then I thought, well, why don't I just speak faster and mumble a little? And maybe that'll be better. So that was what I did. I started speaking faster and not worrying about how it was coming out. And it was like I went to a different realm of Spanish and became much. By the time, you know, I became fairly fluent. And so I always benefited from Archie's counseling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you were just using the language as opposed to studying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is Colombian Spanish fast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, it depends on where you are in Colombia. And I was, when they sent me to Colombia, I was sent to the coffee country in Manizales and the Colombians think they speak Spanish like from Athens. They're the most sophisticated. And if you talk to anybody else in South America, they have some qualms about it. But in any case, in where I was, they spoke fairly clear Spanish. If you go to the southern part of Colombia, which I was at one point lived in Pasto, they speak a little more singsong. It was the northern part of the Inca empire, and the Spanish is a little higher tone, but not that appreciably different. But if you go to the coast and again, I was transferred to the coast, I had three different sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll talk about that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.254349915990467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is Colombian Spanish fast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, it depends on where you are in Colombia. And I was, when they sent me to Colombia, I was sent to the coffee country in Manizales and the Colombians think they speak Spanish like from Athens. They're the most sophisticated. And if you talk to anybody else in South America, they have some qualms about it. But in any case, in where I was, they spoke fairly clear Spanish. If you go to the southern part of Colombia, which I was at one point lived in Pasto, they speak a little more singsong. It was the northern part of the Inca empire, and the Spanish is a little higher tone, but not that appreciably different. But if you go to the coast and again, I was transferred to the coast, I had three different sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll talk about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And Barranquilla, I was trying to save money because they made me a volunteer leader. So I lived with a family. And when I got there, the mother started talking to me and here I was in the country a year and a half, and I had no idea what she said to me because coastal Spanish is very fast. They don't say the whole word. It's more like Caribbean Spanish, like Cuban Spanish. And so those are the three varieties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So going back, so you were in Milwaukee and was finished training, you weren't deselected."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 19.110145668835152, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Bogota. And then they wanted us to get sort of feel our feet into the country. And they had everybody go to a different site near Bogota with some other volunteers from another program. So I went to a town called Choachí with a guy named Bill. I can't remember Bill's last name, but he was in Group II, and at the time I didn't speak that much Spanish. And Bill was from Chicago raising chickens in the backyard, which was okay. And I remember going to the bar with him one night and somebody said that I looked familiar. Some Colombian, like I was a guy from the next village, which sort of blew my mind out, but it seemed like I had a familiar face. And then Bill started telling me how beautiful the mayor's daughters were. And he kept on talking about that. I stayed there for two weeks and, you know, I got sort of interested in what he was saying, and I had this vision about what they might look like and stuff. And then there was a, the mayors had some kind of a coming-out thing and his daughters were there and they were this plump two girls, missing teeth, and they were not very pretty. And then I looked at Bill and then I thought, God."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've been here too long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You've been here too long. Is this going to happen to me? I can't believe it. You know, I'm in danger of this, of this, you know, whatever, being acculturated this way. Anyway, so"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But were they nice? Did you ever meet them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never really met them. I just saw them from a not that afar, and I just got frightened about how enthralled he was with the mayor's daughters. And I thought, I don't know, you know, what's going to happen to me? So, but in the long run, I met very Colombian women are really beautiful. So I don't know what happened in Choachí. They certainly were not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after the two weeks in Choachí then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.989400501196696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. I had Barney's Boystown, you know, something like that. Or maybe a little better than and over time. But wow, it was a fantastic suit. I even have this picture of me with that suit. It's really something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then with your suit, you were able to meet with the owners."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was. But I rarely ever used it. I mean, but I, yes, I was equipped now to deal with what was happening. And so I worked with the cafetarios and I worked with some guy and I lived in town. Had an apartment I shared with another volunteer and a Colombian and learned how to give parties and worked hard on this educational program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the educational? What did you teach them, how to organize?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I developed the whole program of, you know, what to teach the campesinos. What about the co-ops, how they function, what are the rights and duties of members, and try to put something together in a fairly rudimentary way or something that people could understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this a government program, a Colombian government program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.210445001329662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was. But I rarely ever used it. I mean, but I, yes, I was equipped now to deal with what was happening. And so I worked with the cafetarios and I worked with some guy and I lived in town. Had an apartment I shared with another volunteer and a Colombian and learned how to give parties and worked hard on this educational program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the educational? What did you teach them, how to organize?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I developed the whole program of, you know, what to teach the campesinos. What about the co-ops, how they function, what are the rights and duties of members, and try to put something together in a fairly rudimentary way or something that people could understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this a government program, a Colombian government program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a Peace Corps idea?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.567161112588513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I developed the whole program of, you know, what to teach the campesinos. What about the co-ops, how they function, what are the rights and duties of members, and try to put something together in a fairly rudimentary way or something that people could understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this a government program, a Colombian government program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a Peace Corps idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps program that I developed and then gave to the cafetarios."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but I mean, the cooperatives. How did the cooperatives?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.074623458431681, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a Peace Corps idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps program that I developed and then gave to the cafetarios."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but I mean, the cooperatives. How did the cooperatives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The cooperatives was something that was developed by the Peace Corps to provide to Colombia. Because cooperatives were a major, I don't want to say major, but in certain industries like farming, credit, supermarkets and, you know, marketing co-ops and stuff like that were much more prevalent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in Colombia, they were already?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.749581620479645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps program that I developed and then gave to the cafetarios."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, but I mean, the cooperatives. How did the cooperatives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The cooperatives was something that was developed by the Peace Corps to provide to Colombia. Because cooperatives were a major, I don't want to say major, but in certain industries like farming, credit, supermarkets and, you know, marketing co-ops and stuff like that were much more prevalent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in Colombia, they were already?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were. And even cabs were, you know, they were organized in that way. So it wasn't that that strange of an animal for people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the bosses were OK with that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.499535133866274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The cooperatives was something that was developed by the Peace Corps to provide to Colombia. Because cooperatives were a major, I don't want to say major, but in certain industries like farming, credit, supermarkets and, you know, marketing co-ops and stuff like that were much more prevalent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in Colombia, they were already?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were. And even cabs were, you know, they were organized in that way. So it wasn't that that strange of an animal for people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the bosses were OK with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they find, you know, they like the idea of having somebody there. They thought I was going to bring in money from AID, which I didn't. But, you know, but then they just ignored me anyways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they didn't have trouble. Well, they were the members of the co-op. So yeah, they benefited from the co-op. It wasn't that you were organizing the campesinos against them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.682116470302756, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was mostly with volunteers and embassy people. And what happened was they hadn't fulfilled their orders to people. They had taken money from people but hadn't sent out their orders. So we were faced with a big problem because we had people that we owed things to. And anyways, we went to Bogota and I had some samples and stuff, and I mean, we try to. And we'd made some sales, cash sales, knew people and told people who really gave us money that we would honor what they did and we came back with a whole bunch of orders. One of the things, we had these plates that had designs on them and I put A, B, and C on the designs. And I came back to our Carlos and said, this is the plates we've gotten. And I need so many A's, so many B's, so many. And he looked at me and he said, you know, I'm an artist. I'm an artist. And I said, you do anything you want, OK? That was it. So everything was whatever you want. No. Forget about mass production of the designs. You know, everything was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Original."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Original. So we got the we got the place humming. After three months, the thing was really moving and shaped, and it lasted another 20, 25 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was a major accomplishment. That's the best thing I did there. And then they, after three months, they promoted me, which was not necessarily. They promoted me to a volunteer leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who, Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.42457385589195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Original. So we got the we got the place humming. After three months, the thing was really moving and shaped, and it lasted another 20, 25 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was a major accomplishment. That's the best thing I did there. And then they, after three months, they promoted me, which was not necessarily. They promoted me to a volunteer leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who, Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps did. Yeah. And for the co-op program in Barranquilla, which is the northern part of Colombia and that had some mixed things. Then I started sort of managing people who were my peers, which was not so bad. But by that time, you're either working or you aren't working, and it wasn't like I was going to make them work. I mean, you know, they already were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was like a year and a half already."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.180177773058436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's exactly what this guy did subsequent to that, he became a teacher and that's what he did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But this free lifestyle suited you fine? Did it suit you fine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I kind of liked the idea of being thrust somewhere and trying to figure out what to do and figure out a skill set. In fact, when I was in Manizales, I wrote a literacy book on co-ops, a little booklet, all about literacy. So I felt like I was really alive. You know, I could do different things, which was novel. I mean, here, I guess I'd never done anything like that. You know, I the only thing I'd done was in my father's meat factory growing up, making, you know, small little frankfurters, salami, pastrami, corned beef. So I mean, I knew how to pump corned beef. And so that was a different skill set."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Totally, totally."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get to travel to other countries as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.644641970064928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I kind of liked the idea of being thrust somewhere and trying to figure out what to do and figure out a skill set. In fact, when I was in Manizales, I wrote a literacy book on co-ops, a little booklet, all about literacy. So I felt like I was really alive. You know, I could do different things, which was novel. I mean, here, I guess I'd never done anything like that. You know, I the only thing I'd done was in my father's meat factory growing up, making, you know, small little frankfurters, salami, pastrami, corned beef. So I mean, I knew how to pump corned beef. And so that was a different skill set."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Totally, totally."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get to travel to other countries as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. After I did that, we went to, um. I went with two other guys, we flew to Peru, to Lima and then to Cusco to go to Machu Picchu. And we went to the get the train at Machu Picchu and then we were told we didn't have tickets. You had to buy them in Lima. And I think we tried to bribe the guy and that didn't work. So then we just left that and took the steamer across Lake Titicaca to Puno and up to La Paz. And which was really fascinating. Well, and scary because you just saw people living at fourteen thousand feet in sort of rock houses and stuff. I mean, if I saw poverty in Colombia, I didn't see it like that, you know. And La Paz was really very, very poor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bogota was not at that point."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.271824411183253, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get to travel to other countries as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. After I did that, we went to, um. I went with two other guys, we flew to Peru, to Lima and then to Cusco to go to Machu Picchu. And we went to the get the train at Machu Picchu and then we were told we didn't have tickets. You had to buy them in Lima. And I think we tried to bribe the guy and that didn't work. So then we just left that and took the steamer across Lake Titicaca to Puno and up to La Paz. And which was really fascinating. Well, and scary because you just saw people living at fourteen thousand feet in sort of rock houses and stuff. I mean, if I saw poverty in Colombia, I didn't see it like that, you know. And La Paz was really very, very poor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bogota was not at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Bogota was, you know. Yeah, I mean, it had buildings, apartments, and it was a fairly metropolitan area. On the edges of it, there was things and there's everybody selling lottery tickets, but it wasn't a shabby place. It was the central city and other places were fairly well developed. Pasto, on the other hand, was not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big was Pasto?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.968693790203616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. After I did that, we went to, um. I went with two other guys, we flew to Peru, to Lima and then to Cusco to go to Machu Picchu. And we went to the get the train at Machu Picchu and then we were told we didn't have tickets. You had to buy them in Lima. And I think we tried to bribe the guy and that didn't work. So then we just left that and took the steamer across Lake Titicaca to Puno and up to La Paz. And which was really fascinating. Well, and scary because you just saw people living at fourteen thousand feet in sort of rock houses and stuff. I mean, if I saw poverty in Colombia, I didn't see it like that, you know. And La Paz was really very, very poor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bogota was not at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Bogota was, you know. Yeah, I mean, it had buildings, apartments, and it was a fairly metropolitan area. On the edges of it, there was things and there's everybody selling lottery tickets, but it wasn't a shabby place. It was the central city and other places were fairly well developed. Pasto, on the other hand, was not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big was Pasto?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was maybe 30,000 people or something, and it was cobblestone streets. And if you saw three cars in a day, that was a lot. And so that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went by plane, so people, I guess, did locals also fly from one place to another or was that really just for foreigners?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.520770878004015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Bogota was, you know. Yeah, I mean, it had buildings, apartments, and it was a fairly metropolitan area. On the edges of it, there was things and there's everybody selling lottery tickets, but it wasn't a shabby place. It was the central city and other places were fairly well developed. Pasto, on the other hand, was not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big was Pasto?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was maybe 30,000 people or something, and it was cobblestone streets. And if you saw three cars in a day, that was a lot. And so that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went by plane, so people, I guess, did locals also fly from one place to another or was that really just for foreigners?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, everybody went on a DC3 or DC. A lot of people had to fly there because the distances in Colombia, because of the mountain ranges, were pretty severe. I mean, if I were to go from Pasto to Bogota, it would probably take me three or four days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the mountains?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.245300975560017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was maybe 30,000 people or something, and it was cobblestone streets. And if you saw three cars in a day, that was a lot. And so that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went by plane, so people, I guess, did locals also fly from one place to another or was that really just for foreigners?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, everybody went on a DC3 or DC. A lot of people had to fly there because the distances in Colombia, because of the mountain ranges, were pretty severe. I mean, if I were to go from Pasto to Bogota, it would probably take me three or four days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the mountains?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of the mountains and then even in Manizales, it would have been, yeah, it's a long trek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just going back to your co-op, how do you know that it existed for another 25 years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.05033441728891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, everybody went on a DC3 or DC. A lot of people had to fly there because the distances in Colombia, because of the mountain ranges, were pretty severe. I mean, if I were to go from Pasto to Bogota, it would probably take me three or four days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the mountains?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of the mountains and then even in Manizales, it would have been, yeah, it's a long trek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just going back to your co-op, how do you know that it existed for another 25 years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because we, you know, I've been a member of the Friends of Colombia for God knows, since the beginning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk a little bit about that, Friends of Colombia."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.722593796987674, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of the mountains and then even in Manizales, it would have been, yeah, it's a long trek."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So just going back to your co-op, how do you know that it existed for another 25 years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because we, you know, I've been a member of the Friends of Colombia for God knows, since the beginning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk a little bit about that, Friends of Colombia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Well, let me just finish up. Because we had other volunteers who were in Colombia and we sort of, I heard at different Peace Corps meetings and subsequent that it was, people were still involved with it. And in a way I felt bad because my goal was to teach them how to use their bookkeeping system, how to market, and to do it themselves. And so, it lasted 20 years with a lot of other people and subsequent. When I went back there, I went back there about in 2000, about 40 years later, and some of the same guys were working, but they had their own co-op, so they had spread out. So they were in their own business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so that's still a success. They closed that but did something else."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.913993107764083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because we, you know, I've been a member of the Friends of Colombia for God knows, since the beginning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk a little bit about that, Friends of Colombia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Well, let me just finish up. Because we had other volunteers who were in Colombia and we sort of, I heard at different Peace Corps meetings and subsequent that it was, people were still involved with it. And in a way I felt bad because my goal was to teach them how to use their bookkeeping system, how to market, and to do it themselves. And so, it lasted 20 years with a lot of other people and subsequent. When I went back there, I went back there about in 2000, about 40 years later, and some of the same guys were working, but they had their own co-op, so they had spread out. So they were in their own business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so that's still a success. They closed that but did something else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Let me digress for one second, because Steve and I went back and we looked up people. Now, Pasto, now they had paved over the cobblestone streets. They built some of the hotels. And I was heartbroken. You know, the town I knew, that was just it was different. It was developed. God, I hated that and they even had a like a McDonald's, 24 hour McDonald's in the square, that I couldn't even believe it. And we looked up one of the guys that made the Don Quixote bookends and he invited us over to his son's house, where he was living. So we go to this almost townhouse section that didn't exist in Pasto, and we walk in there and to the left is his son, his 10 year old kid working on a computer. I meet his son and his son is selling these products that we made, but now making them in shapes of birds and not play, you know? And he's selling them in Europe and France and stuff. And it was just."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "40 years, 40 years later."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.441385623783086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I've been active. I could not be active. Bob pulled me into the group, I guess, and so I've been on it. I don't know how many years already, 40 years already. So and we've been, you know, we've been giving some money to certain projects and doing that over time and then having a newsletter and stuff like that. And it's, I think it's, we were almost getting running out of steam because we're all getting older."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And a wonderful thing has happened. They had new groups of volunteers going to Colombia the last three or four years, and now they've graduated, and now we've incorporated two or three of those people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In our thing. And I was head of, I guess, one thing, the internet thing. Had my name and numbers all over there and I had Michael, I gave it all to Michael and said, you got to put your name and stuff. In other words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You passed the torch."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.04598402642565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And a wonderful thing has happened. They had new groups of volunteers going to Colombia the last three or four years, and now they've graduated, and now we've incorporated two or three of those people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In our thing. And I was head of, I guess, one thing, the internet thing. Had my name and numbers all over there and I had Michael, I gave it all to Michael and said, you got to put your name and stuff. In other words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You passed the torch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I passed the torch. So I think it's fantastic. We're going to, we've got three or four people involved with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there volunteers in Colombia now?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.717760029361834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In our thing. And I was head of, I guess, one thing, the internet thing. Had my name and numbers all over there and I had Michael, I gave it all to Michael and said, you got to put your name and stuff. In other words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You passed the torch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I passed the torch. So I think it's fantastic. We're going to, we've got three or four people involved with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there volunteers in Colombia now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they are volunteers. And I think we're making some kind of a headway with the director down there to do some kind of joint. We gave them some money. She wanted money for a conference, so we gave her some money and we've had some project we've been funding for the last 40 years. And so we continue that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned you've been back once or twice."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.130844477068706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I passed the torch. So I think it's fantastic. We're going to, we've got three or four people involved with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there volunteers in Colombia now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they are volunteers. And I think we're making some kind of a headway with the director down there to do some kind of joint. We gave them some money. She wanted money for a conference, so we gave her some money and we've had some project we've been funding for the last 40 years. And so we continue that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned you've been back once or twice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twice. I was back once, I think, in 1999, and I went back to see what was happening in Manizales and in Pasto. But the interesting thing was I flew into Cartagena and I had to change planes and we were in the waiting room and I didn't see anybody in Colombia for 40 years. And I get in this waiting room and everybody's got jeans on and Michael Jordan's shirts and hats, and I don't know where the hell I am, and I don't know who's a Colombian, who's an American. You know, it doesn't make sense to me, you know, I mean, it just totally, totally different thing. And I see this one woman, I swear she, and I didn't know how to use the phone there because it was a different setup. And I'm sure she was an American. And of course, I went up to her and I, in by this time my broken Spanish, because I only time I speak Spanish is somebody parking my car or whatever anyways. And she was a Colombian, you know, which is unbelievable how."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, there are lots of Colombians who come to the United States, too."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.314653981205162, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think. I mean, you know, when I was down there, you thought, especially in the rural places that you know, just you don't know when they haven't developed. Let me just digress for one second. The most significant, one of the most significant places I was in, it was in southern Colombia. They were making baskets. Guy from Sears Roebuck was, now retired, was trying to help the Colombian industry and selling baskets to maybe the States. And he found them making baskets in Pasto and he said, they're not making them quite right and he designed it. And so he had this one guy, some guy in the marketplace who didn't speak Spanish, he spoke, uh, Quechua. So we had to have a Colombian speaking Quechua. I'm translating from Spanish to English to this guy.\n\nMake a long story short, after two weeks we go visit this guy's home and he made the baskets. And then we try to tell him, if you make a lot more. You know, I think he wanted $5 for the two baskets or something. And then we said, if you make 10 baskets, we can pay you less per basket, but you'll make a lot more money. And the guy said, look at the tree and how many leaves are in the tree, how many you could be making. And this guy who lives in a shack, you know, the mud hut, you know, thatched roof and smoke coming out of the house. And he shook his head. And he basically said, if you want more, if you want more, it'll cost you more, more and more. I mean, if you wanted, if it was $2.50 for one, if you want, if you wanted to make two, it would cost you $3. It was going in the wrong direction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was his logic to that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His logic was to that was very, he says, if I do that, I have less time for my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would just sort of blown out, you know, I mean, because, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had his priorities."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.794059979116847, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "His logic was to that was very, he says, if I do that, I have less time for my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would just sort of blown out, you know, I mean, because, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had his priorities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He has priorities, this guy is in the bush. And so anyways, sorry to digress there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's a good a little story."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.32673331012983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would just sort of blown out, you know, I mean, because, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had his priorities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He has priorities, this guy is in the bush. And so anyways, sorry to digress there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's a good a little story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And your question was?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was Peace Corps' role in this development?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.6963703445887, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He has priorities, this guy is in the bush. And so anyways, sorry to digress there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's a good a little story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And your question was?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was Peace Corps' role in this development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn't the drug problem. I mean, when we were there, there was no drugs in '65. I think some of the volunteers, you know, some projects were better than others. And by and large, you know there was a productive country. I mean, they had a good agriculture. They made coffee. It was a market for the coffee and other things. And there was a governmental system that seemed to work. I mean, it flipped from one party to the other party. It got a little crazier in the last 20 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the drugs, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.995967049543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And your question was?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was Peace Corps' role in this development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn't the drug problem. I mean, when we were there, there was no drugs in '65. I think some of the volunteers, you know, some projects were better than others. And by and large, you know there was a productive country. I mean, they had a good agriculture. They made coffee. It was a market for the coffee and other things. And there was a governmental system that seemed to work. I mean, it flipped from one party to the other party. It got a little crazier in the last 20 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the drugs, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the drugs and stuff like that. But there was a good market. People were, if you gave people an opportunity they took it. And I saw that everywhere, even on the coast or anywhere. One of the volunteers now is in the microloan program and she's been doing it. And still doing it. So in some ways, it was an ideal environment. And a lot of Colombians come to the States and fit right in, you know, they're basically hard working, family oriented, and they're good businessmen. I mean, at all levels. So I was very impressed. I mean, when you get down there in the sixties, you don't, you know, you can't believe what you're seeing. When I went down there in 2000, you know. When I was down there, you'd see people in black all the time because somebody had died. And it was. And the same poverty I didn't see at all. I mean, you'd have to, not that it didn't exist, but there was significant change. And what role did Peace Corps play? I think we modeled things for a lot of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they were ready to take it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.32885227727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn't the drug problem. I mean, when we were there, there was no drugs in '65. I think some of the volunteers, you know, some projects were better than others. And by and large, you know there was a productive country. I mean, they had a good agriculture. They made coffee. It was a market for the coffee and other things. And there was a governmental system that seemed to work. I mean, it flipped from one party to the other party. It got a little crazier in the last 20 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the drugs, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the drugs and stuff like that. But there was a good market. People were, if you gave people an opportunity they took it. And I saw that everywhere, even on the coast or anywhere. One of the volunteers now is in the microloan program and she's been doing it. And still doing it. So in some ways, it was an ideal environment. And a lot of Colombians come to the States and fit right in, you know, they're basically hard working, family oriented, and they're good businessmen. I mean, at all levels. So I was very impressed. I mean, when you get down there in the sixties, you don't, you know, you can't believe what you're seeing. When I went down there in 2000, you know. When I was down there, you'd see people in black all the time because somebody had died. And it was. And the same poverty I didn't see at all. I mean, you'd have to, not that it didn't exist, but there was significant change. And what role did Peace Corps play? I think we modeled things for a lot of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they were ready to take it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were ready, I mean, you know, and some of us did more than others. But I don't, I don't want to say we made development work in Colombia. I think we learned a lot more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was my next question. So what did Peace Corps do for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6405583670000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were ready, I mean, you know, and some of us did more than others. But I don't, I don't want to say we made development work in Colombia. I think we learned a lot more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was my next question. So what did Peace Corps do for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, well, gave me a lease on life because I came back and I was pretty confident that I could do different things and so I just was determined to see what I could do. I wanted to go back overseas and it wasn't a good time because it was 1965. The war was raging and so I got into graduate school. And I feel guilty about that, because other people got drafted right away. One of the guys that we worked with, another volunteer, died within three months of coming home. His name is on the wall. So I, you know, I ended up getting a master's degree, then another master's degree, then a PhD. Taught at GW and got burnt out teaching and not making enough money. It sounds like bad and sour grapes, but this vision of being, you know, a professor and, you know, at a not quite Ivy League place, but GW was more of a factory. It was a, I don't know, it wasn't a good fit. I had a different background to the people I taught with in the department."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You'd been overseas, you're worldly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And none of them were, they were in a very traditional mold. I had new skills and program evaluation and research methods. And it was like oil and water. And I just didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went on to do lots of other things. So that's fine."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0253807000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And none of them were, they were in a very traditional mold. I had new skills and program evaluation and research methods. And it was like oil and water. And I just didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went on to do lots of other things. So that's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had a great. I did what I wanted to do and there were costs involved. I mean, I joined the government and I had my nose up, you know, in the air. And if I rose up and I rose down, you know, and I wasn't afraid to change. So it wasn't like I had this stellar career in the government. Ultimately, I got burnt out when they told me not to do anything. I mean, I couldn't take that. I could not take sitting in a, I was a 15 towards the end and had a nice sized office. So I was on the road to becoming a senior executive. And I could not take not doing anything and just sitting and pushing buttons. And so I went back, went to school, got a clinical degree, and I was very happy becoming a psychotherapist and I was a really good one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I'm not sorry what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you can think of the psychologists who deselected people, way back when."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2504230000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had a great. I did what I wanted to do and there were costs involved. I mean, I joined the government and I had my nose up, you know, in the air. And if I rose up and I rose down, you know, and I wasn't afraid to change. So it wasn't like I had this stellar career in the government. Ultimately, I got burnt out when they told me not to do anything. I mean, I couldn't take that. I could not take sitting in a, I was a 15 towards the end and had a nice sized office. So I was on the road to becoming a senior executive. And I could not take not doing anything and just sitting and pushing buttons. And so I went back, went to school, got a clinical degree, and I was very happy becoming a psychotherapist and I was a really good one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I'm not sorry what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you can think of the psychologists who deselected people, way back when."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, but the trouble was they didn't know who was going to make it and who didn't, you know. They had, what they were using, what they thought was some measures. And because some of the people that did, they took people at the margins who were really looked a little bizarre. That's about it. I'm not sure they took out wrong people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we had a guy who we all disliked because we didn't like the whole process. And then years later, I was at a professional conference and there he was up on the stage. I can't even remember what he was talking about, but a perfectly nice guy. But, you know, it was a different role. I was in a different role."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5004700000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I'm not sorry what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you can think of the psychologists who deselected people, way back when."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, but the trouble was they didn't know who was going to make it and who didn't, you know. They had, what they were using, what they thought was some measures. And because some of the people that did, they took people at the margins who were really looked a little bizarre. That's about it. I'm not sure they took out wrong people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we had a guy who we all disliked because we didn't like the whole process. And then years later, I was at a professional conference and there he was up on the stage. I can't even remember what he was talking about, but a perfectly nice guy. But, you know, it was a different role. I was in a different role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yeah, it was a difficult thing at that point."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, but the trouble was they didn't know who was going to make it and who didn't, you know. They had, what they were using, what they thought was some measures. And because some of the people that did, they took people at the margins who were really looked a little bizarre. That's about it. I'm not sure they took out wrong people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we had a guy who we all disliked because we didn't like the whole process. And then years later, I was at a professional conference and there he was up on the stage. I can't even remember what he was talking about, but a perfectly nice guy. But, you know, it was a different role. I was in a different role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yeah, it was a difficult thing at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody liked deselection."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yeah, it was a difficult thing at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody liked deselection."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, it was crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The term itself was not such a great term."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.43, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody liked deselection."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, it was crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The term itself was not such a great term."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, like I said, it was frightening. Frightening because, you know, here you are. You're supposed to be on a track somewhere, and you can't come back. You can't come home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true. Right. So anything else you want to tell me or put it down for posterity about Colombia, about the Peace Corps, about your reflections looking back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, it was crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The term itself was not such a great term."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, like I said, it was frightening. Frightening because, you know, here you are. You're supposed to be on a track somewhere, and you can't come back. You can't come home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true. Right. So anything else you want to tell me or put it down for posterity about Colombia, about the Peace Corps, about your reflections looking back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me see. I like to think that it's not that different now than it was. I meet some of the people. And I think teaching is nice because it's that, but I think the community development stuff is different and that requires a different skill set. And like they said, you take a lot more yourself in terms of your own development than you give. And it's hard to know how much. Well, I was. Yeah. I think I was in Thailand with somebody and mentioned I was in the Peace Corps. And he said, oh yes, you know, they knew about it and he said some friend of his or his father really benefited from it. So. But, you know, we're sort of a small thing, but over time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It adds up. How many volunteers have been in Colombia, do you know?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00025:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, like I said, it was frightening. Frightening because, you know, here you are. You're supposed to be on a track somewhere, and you can't come back. You can't come home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true. Right. So anything else you want to tell me or put it down for posterity about Colombia, about the Peace Corps, about your reflections looking back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me see. I like to think that it's not that different now than it was. I meet some of the people. And I think teaching is nice because it's that, but I think the community development stuff is different and that requires a different skill set. And like they said, you take a lot more yourself in terms of your own development than you give. And it's hard to know how much. Well, I was. Yeah. I think I was in Thailand with somebody and mentioned I was in the Peace Corps. And he said, oh yes, you know, they knew about it and he said some friend of his or his father really benefited from it. So. But, you know, we're sort of a small thing, but over time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It adds up. How many volunteers have been in Colombia, do you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, probably close to 4,000, I think over time, because we had the biggest program. Maybe more than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somalia total had four hundred, over all the years."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 66.74228574420867, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m pleased to be here with you, and I’m glad you could find it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Not a problem at all there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not a problem."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My husband’s map. He’s the mapmaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Okay. It was such a pretty drive. It really was."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 74.15809527134297, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not a problem."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My husband’s map. He’s the mapmaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Okay. It was such a pretty drive. It really was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. Well, he’s out in the vineyard and I’m sure he will come in with the dogs at some inopportune moment. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s all right. I like dogs, so that’s good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 82.39788363482552, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My husband’s map. He’s the mapmaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Okay. It was such a pretty drive. It really was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. Well, he’s out in the vineyard and I’m sure he will come in with the dogs at some inopportune moment. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s all right. I like dogs, so that’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll just add them in. Let them have their say."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 39, "return_to_go": 91.55320403869501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. Well, he’s out in the vineyard and I’m sure he will come in with the dogs at some inopportune moment. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s all right. I like dogs, so that’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll just add them in. Let them have their say."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, they will."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] Good.\\n\\n Well, to begin with, going back to and thinking about maybe what led to your interest in science, chemistry, how did you move into that area in your early studies?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 80.11042361207642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Because somewhere in there I think you have a question about when did you first—did you experience any problems because you were a woman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Until that point, I had had nothing but good advice, goodwill, mentorship. At Reed College there were a couple of women [faculty] in the chemistry department. I had a woman math professor when I was a freshman. It was really inspiring for me, because I had limited exposure to women in scientific roles. So they were an inspiring group of women."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to UCSD, and in many ways I really enjoyed it, especially the first two years, because I was with a cohort of my fellow graduate students. They put us in offices in a new building, and we were all together isolated from everything else, so we really had a lot of fun supporting each other and learning together, and that was good. The first couple of years were fine, or about the first year or so was fine.\\n\\n Then in the second year you really have to settle on what your research project is going to be. They had a program there we called rotation, which was you got to choose different professors to work with for a quarter. They were on the quarter system. So I was rotating through the people that I was most interested in, and I was in Professor Jim [James R.] Arnold’s lab. I was working on kind of a heroic project. I mean, it was a brute-force kind of project. We were trying to isolate from a dissolved—oh, we were trying to find out if there were other contaminants in lead bricks, because Professor Arnold’s lab focused on very low-level radiation, and they wanted to minimize any source of radiation, so they wanted to know if there were any other radioactive materials in the lead bricks that were used for shielding. It sounds kind of weird. So I dissolved a whole lead brick with sulphuric acid. This took quite a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I imagine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.439173593051045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Margaret Burbidge, famous astronomer, was on the staff there at the time. So there were a couple of other faculty members, I think, in the chemistry department. The chemistry department had at that time a much more diverse faculty than a lot of chemistry departments to this day. So on that score, I have to say they were doing well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good. Were there a number of women students?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes. There were some really interesting women students. I shared an office with one at Scripps. Unfortunately, I don’t know what happened to her, Aviva Brecher. She was married to another graduate student. I think she pretty much dropped out of science, but she was an interesting gal and very [smart]—I sorry if she did. I’ve just lost track of her. She may be in science, for all I know, maybe just doing something different. I’m not doing much science now anyway, so. [Laughter]\\n\\n Tanya Atwater, very famous geochemist, was a student when I was there. So, yes, it was a good place to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good.\\n\\n Okay. Well, I think we’ve covered most of the questions I had about what we’ve already discussed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Early life, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you move now on to the University of Arizona."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 38.265748436723385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes. There were some really interesting women students. I shared an office with one at Scripps. Unfortunately, I don’t know what happened to her, Aviva Brecher. She was married to another graduate student. I think she pretty much dropped out of science, but she was an interesting gal and very [smart]—I sorry if she did. I’ve just lost track of her. She may be in science, for all I know, maybe just doing something different. I’m not doing much science now anyway, so. [Laughter]\\n\\n Tanya Atwater, very famous geochemist, was a student when I was there. So, yes, it was a good place to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good.\\n\\n Okay. Well, I think we’ve covered most of the questions I had about what we’ve already discussed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Early life, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you move now on to the University of Arizona."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Met your husband."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.517498263025985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Early life, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you move now on to the University of Arizona."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Met your husband."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which, that’s interesting. You said he was a Carmelite friar."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 47.24166473669554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Met your husband."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which, that’s interesting. You said he was a Carmelite friar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you kind of drew him away from that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 52.49073859632838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which, that’s interesting. You said he was a Carmelite friar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you kind of drew him away from that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. He had to leave the priesthood. It was a big decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it looks like it’s worked out well for you both."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 63.56881308188689, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. He had to leave the priesthood. It was a big decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it looks like it’s worked out well for you both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty-seven years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that point, you mentioned that you were looking for a chemistry lab and setting that up. Were you also teaching classes then at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 70.63201453542987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty-seven years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that point, you mentioned that you were looking for a chemistry lab and setting that up. Were you also teaching classes then at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were you teaching and what was—I guess still going a little bit with the theme of women—the reaction of some of the students in the department or the department in general, and then specifically what you were teaching some of the projects you were involved in."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.00741648289506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—thinking directly on the mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right.\\n\\n The other thing, my time there ended kind of sadly because the—what was he called—associate administrator, deputy administrator, I don’t know, but the person who was the head of all the science, this other famous geologist—I’m having a hard time with my names. This is not unusual. This has been a lifelong problem, but it’s gotten much worse in my senior years.\\n\\n In any case, this was the person who was—Tim [Thomas] Mutch. He went on this climbing expedition and fell to his death, and he never came back. Well, I had an appointment [scheduled] with him for the day after he got back for that [was to get back]. So that was kind of a sad ending to the whole time I was there, which had been very educational. I learned a lot from it, but, on the whole, if I hadn’t been so young and enthusiastic, I would have been really depressed. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d like to pause briefly here and change out the tape."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 46.67490720321673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right.\\n\\n The other thing, my time there ended kind of sadly because the—what was he called—associate administrator, deputy administrator, I don’t know, but the person who was the head of all the science, this other famous geologist—I’m having a hard time with my names. This is not unusual. This has been a lifelong problem, but it’s gotten much worse in my senior years.\\n\\n In any case, this was the person who was—Tim [Thomas] Mutch. He went on this climbing expedition and fell to his death, and he never came back. Well, I had an appointment [scheduled] with him for the day after he got back for that [was to get back]. So that was kind of a sad ending to the whole time I was there, which had been very educational. I learned a lot from it, but, on the whole, if I hadn’t been so young and enthusiastic, I would have been really depressed. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d like to pause briefly here and change out the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. Good idea. [Recording Stopped]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We were just talking about your time during this one year up at NASA Headquarters, working specifically on the Halley mission, and you had mentioned at one point that it was a lesson in adaptive thinking for you. If you might expand on that and how that changed your process."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 50.749896892463035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d like to pause briefly here and change out the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. Good idea. [Recording Stopped]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We were just talking about your time during this one year up at NASA Headquarters, working specifically on the Halley mission, and you had mentioned at one point that it was a lesson in adaptive thinking for you. If you might expand on that and how that changed your process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was going beyond my normal, my narrow track of scientific specialization, and doing various things like writing the newsletter and learning about the budgets and things like that. All of that was pretty new to me. When I went back to the University of Arizona then in December, I guess it was, I returned and found that the person who had been chairing the department had stepped down as chair. They were looking for a new department head, and the factions were still like in evidence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I could interrupt briefly, what had caused the factions? Was it the difference in thinking about how the department should function or was it more of a scientific difference?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 71.47702638379235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Presentations, you know, it’s the meetings, it’s the usual kind of activities. So that actually worked out pretty well, especially when I was doing a lot of the—when a lot of the high-level space policy stuff was being done on weekends. So it made it possible to do, although it’s a heck of a long trip from Washington, D.C., to Washington state."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a very long trip."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was pretty tough. I don’t really have much more to say about that, unless you want to follow up in some specific direction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not specifically. I was just curious about the contrast between the two. It’s different areas, but, as you said, you need both to really have—well, you did move on from Washington to become chancellor at UCI."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that opportunity come about for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 30.105550278230535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a very memorable—it was so memorable. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though you had big challenges for a while, as you said, there was a lot of positive that did come out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. We did a lot of things that I liked there. So, you know, it wasn’t all bad. But if you read the newspapers, you would think it was all bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you decided it was time for a new career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first opportunity you moved on to then? Was that when you came here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 24.2180022601503, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you want to stop and let me go find—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How are we doing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, you’ve mentioned some of the activities that you’ve gotten involved with since retiring from at least the academic world, but I did want to talk a little bit about The Planetary Society and how you became involved with that and then what some of the major projects were that you worked on while you were there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.580624420000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is wonderful, and Neil is absolutely astounding. I am so glad that we talked him into joining our board at a time when he wasn’t quite the celebrity that he has become. I mean, he was a celebrity, and he’s much sought after. He really got into The Planetary Society. I remember when we had lunch. I think Bruce and I—I can’t remember if Lou was there. I think there were two or three of us and Neil, and Neil says well, I’m not sure—something like this. This isn’t a quote, not as much of a quote as some of the things I’ve said. “Why would I want to be on this when I don’t agree with your goals on manned exploration of space?”\\n\\n Lou says, well—I think it was Lou or maybe it was Bruce says, “Well, we think that debate is worth having within The Planetary Society.”\\n\\n So I think Neil understood that we didn’t have a single view. We used to have more of a single view when Carl was the guiding light, and we pretty much were focused around Carl. But Carl had this very expansive philosophy. So instead of having one Carl Sagan, now we have a lot of people that are very creative, and I think having Neil there is really wonderful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it’s a good, good group of folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Certainly a lot of interesting projects, as you said, have come out of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I know. It’s kind of amazing to me. I think they will just continue and become even more interesting. That was one of the things I felt happiest about at the Society, moving in that direction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, I just have a few general questions, more looking back over your career actually—or, no, sorry, I take that back. I do have one other—am I correct that now you’re working with Seagate Technology?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 16.200693800000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it’s a good, good group of folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Certainly a lot of interesting projects, as you said, have come out of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I know. It’s kind of amazing to me. I think they will just continue and become even more interesting. That was one of the things I felt happiest about at the Society, moving in that direction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, I just have a few general questions, more looking back over your career actually—or, no, sorry, I take that back. I do have one other—am I correct that now you’re working with Seagate Technology?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seagate Technology was a public company until exactly a year ago, went private. I was on the public board, and the public board was dispersed, dismissed, and thanked, which is typical. That’s normal. So I was with them for about six, seven years, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that focus on for that company?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—for these kind of women. We had an on-site physician. We had twenty-four-hour [services]—they could eat three meals a day because we served four meals a day in the twenty-four-hour clock."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of those kinds of things. I thought, I understand a lot of the concern about not paying your workers in foreign countries what looks like less than anybody could possibly live on in the United States. Well, the United States is the worldwide consumer of everything. We live to excess.\\n\\n But then what you don’t realize is that we provided dormitories so they had basically all their basic living plus their health provided. So the money that they earned they could keep or they could send home. Most of them sent it home.\\n\\n So anyway, that was partly the good side of the corporate America that I saw there, which was nice. Then I saw how wonderful cutthroat competitive corporate America, which is also kind of interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is that. That’s a good word to describe it. Well, you certainly saw several different aspects. You’ve seen the academic side, the government side, and the corporate side."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over all of these experiences, what would you consider your biggest challenge and then also your most significant accomplishment."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01000:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of those kinds of things. I thought, I understand a lot of the concern about not paying your workers in foreign countries what looks like less than anybody could possibly live on in the United States. Well, the United States is the worldwide consumer of everything. We live to excess.\\n\\n But then what you don’t realize is that we provided dormitories so they had basically all their basic living plus their health provided. So the money that they earned they could keep or they could send home. Most of them sent it home.\\n\\n So anyway, that was partly the good side of the corporate America that I saw there, which was nice. Then I saw how wonderful cutthroat competitive corporate America, which is also kind of interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is that. That’s a good word to describe it. Well, you certainly saw several different aspects. You’ve seen the academic side, the government side, and the corporate side."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over all of these experiences, what would you consider your biggest challenge and then also your most significant accomplishment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my gosh. Am I interviewing for a job here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, no. No, no. It’s just something we like to ask everybody, just kind of a—"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 26.292187198534133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Well, tell us what you were doing a year before you joined the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I joined the Peace Corps originally in March 2010. One year before that, I was working in Kerry, North Carolina, at Immediate Communications, which is a company that works with proxy materials and delivers voting materials for companies when it comes to their annual meetings and delivering of prospectuses, annual reports. In an office setting on a computer all day. Having gotten my application in and waiting, waiting to hear from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Well, let's go back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and your family background."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Marietta, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and lived there for the first five years of my life. Around in '91, we moved, my mom and my dad and I moved to Kerry, North Carolina, at that point, along with newly acquired little brother David. And from there, I grew up in North Carolina. I went to elementary school, middle school, high school in Kerry and then from there went on to Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, where I received my Bachelor of Science in sociology with a concentration in social inequalities. So grew up in suburbia and playing lots of sports with a close-knit group of friends right on my street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. So you have one brother?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.10243022059348, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I joined the Peace Corps originally in March 2010. One year before that, I was working in Kerry, North Carolina, at Immediate Communications, which is a company that works with proxy materials and delivers voting materials for companies when it comes to their annual meetings and delivering of prospectuses, annual reports. In an office setting on a computer all day. Having gotten my application in and waiting, waiting to hear from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Well, let's go back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and your family background."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Marietta, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and lived there for the first five years of my life. Around in '91, we moved, my mom and my dad and I moved to Kerry, North Carolina, at that point, along with newly acquired little brother David. And from there, I grew up in North Carolina. I went to elementary school, middle school, high school in Kerry and then from there went on to Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, where I received my Bachelor of Science in sociology with a concentration in social inequalities. So grew up in suburbia and playing lots of sports with a close-knit group of friends right on my street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. So you have one brother?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Just one sibling. One. And he's younger. And he's currently now in Asheville."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Your parents. Did they both work?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 29.002700245103867, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in Marietta, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and lived there for the first five years of my life. Around in '91, we moved, my mom and my dad and I moved to Kerry, North Carolina, at that point, along with newly acquired little brother David. And from there, I grew up in North Carolina. I went to elementary school, middle school, high school in Kerry and then from there went on to Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, where I received my Bachelor of Science in sociology with a concentration in social inequalities. So grew up in suburbia and playing lots of sports with a close-knit group of friends right on my street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. So you have one brother?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Just one sibling. One. And he's younger. And he's currently now in Asheville."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Your parents. Did they both work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they both worked the majority of their lives. My mom was a teacher, itinerant teacher, and her last job was in the Wake County Public School system. She's now retired. My dad has also retired, and his last job was as a technical editor for SAS."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Did they have any international travel experience or interests?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.11411138344874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Just one sibling. One. And he's younger. And he's currently now in Asheville."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Your parents. Did they both work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they both worked the majority of their lives. My mom was a teacher, itinerant teacher, and her last job was in the Wake County Public School system. She's now retired. My dad has also retired, and his last job was as a technical editor for SAS."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Did they have any international travel experience or interests?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they've both, um. They've both had some travels around the world. My dad's been to Haiti on some mission trips. He's been to Finland for work. He served as an Army photographer back in the, I think, late sixties and was in Thailand for 18 months. So he's been around a little bit. As well as my mom, I think, has been to Europe for more of a vacation type activities as well as she did the Experiment in International Living back in the late sixties as well, which is a world learning program. And she was in Holland, I think, at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. When you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.237901537165268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they both worked the majority of their lives. My mom was a teacher, itinerant teacher, and her last job was in the Wake County Public School system. She's now retired. My dad has also retired, and his last job was as a technical editor for SAS."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Did they have any international travel experience or interests?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they've both, um. They've both had some travels around the world. My dad's been to Haiti on some mission trips. He's been to Finland for work. He served as an Army photographer back in the, I think, late sixties and was in Thailand for 18 months. So he's been around a little bit. As well as my mom, I think, has been to Europe for more of a vacation type activities as well as she did the Experiment in International Living back in the late sixties as well, which is a world learning program. And she was in Holland, I think, at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. When you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In high school, I studied Latin and am embarrassed to say now that I little very remember, I remember very little from that, from those four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in college, any language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 23.597668374628075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they've both, um. They've both had some travels around the world. My dad's been to Haiti on some mission trips. He's been to Finland for work. He served as an Army photographer back in the, I think, late sixties and was in Thailand for 18 months. So he's been around a little bit. As well as my mom, I think, has been to Europe for more of a vacation type activities as well as she did the Experiment in International Living back in the late sixties as well, which is a world learning program. And she was in Holland, I think, at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. When you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In high school, I studied Latin and am embarrassed to say now that I little very remember, I remember very little from that, from those four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in college, any language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college I did not study language, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And were you doing any volunteer work, either in high school or college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.330742638475638, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In high school, I studied Latin and am embarrassed to say now that I little very remember, I remember very little from that, from those four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in college, any language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college I did not study language, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And were you doing any volunteer work, either in high school or college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In high school, I did a little bit here and there, mostly sports and extracurricular honor society type activities took up most of my time. Throughout the summers of high school and undergrad, I went on the Appalachian Service Project, which is a mission trip that goes to the Appalachian Mountains during the summer and works on the homes with lower income families and families in need. That was a significant part of my summers the first decade of the century. And in college or at App State during my time there, I feel like I got more and more involved in the community as a, uh, working with the local food bank was one thing. There was another group called People Fighting Poverty, which was an on-campus group that worked to address homelessness through different initiatives as well as I was a logistics coordinator for a blood drive, which was a volunteer activity as well. And that actually ended up being the largest North Carolina blood drive in history at the time. In the state, I should say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Very good. So your summers were spent volunteering for the most part while you were in high school and college or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.034158487195153, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college I did not study language, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And were you doing any volunteer work, either in high school or college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In high school, I did a little bit here and there, mostly sports and extracurricular honor society type activities took up most of my time. Throughout the summers of high school and undergrad, I went on the Appalachian Service Project, which is a mission trip that goes to the Appalachian Mountains during the summer and works on the homes with lower income families and families in need. That was a significant part of my summers the first decade of the century. And in college or at App State during my time there, I feel like I got more and more involved in the community as a, uh, working with the local food bank was one thing. There was another group called People Fighting Poverty, which was an on-campus group that worked to address homelessness through different initiatives as well as I was a logistics coordinator for a blood drive, which was a volunteer activity as well. And that actually ended up being the largest North Carolina blood drive in history at the time. In the state, I should say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Very good. So your summers were spent volunteering for the most part while you were in high school and college or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess I did not specify. That was only a week, a weeklong project, but I did it every summer for nine summers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.92684276355017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In high school, I did a little bit here and there, mostly sports and extracurricular honor society type activities took up most of my time. Throughout the summers of high school and undergrad, I went on the Appalachian Service Project, which is a mission trip that goes to the Appalachian Mountains during the summer and works on the homes with lower income families and families in need. That was a significant part of my summers the first decade of the century. And in college or at App State during my time there, I feel like I got more and more involved in the community as a, uh, working with the local food bank was one thing. There was another group called People Fighting Poverty, which was an on-campus group that worked to address homelessness through different initiatives as well as I was a logistics coordinator for a blood drive, which was a volunteer activity as well. And that actually ended up being the largest North Carolina blood drive in history at the time. In the state, I should say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Very good. So your summers were spent volunteering for the most part while you were in high school and college or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess I did not specify. That was only a week, a weeklong project, but I did it every summer for nine summers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, thanks for the good clarification."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, well, OK. But and otherwise, what did you do in the summers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.8076030706113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess I did not specify. That was only a week, a weeklong project, but I did it every summer for nine summers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, thanks for the good clarification."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, well, OK. But and otherwise, what did you do in the summers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So when I was App State, most of my summers were spent actually working at the Gregory Poole Equipment Company. I was a maintenance assistant and I did a lot of painting in the summer heat, especially those yellow poles that you see all over the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 19.786225634012556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, thanks for the good clarification."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, well, OK. But and otherwise, what did you do in the summers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So when I was App State, most of my summers were spent actually working at the Gregory Poole Equipment Company. I was a maintenance assistant and I did a lot of painting in the summer heat, especially those yellow poles that you see all over the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember my first exact exposure to it. A couple of my friends when I was in either late high school or early college had done it, and so it was on my radar as soon as I entered college and just something I had always, always thought about it, about doing it. And but again, I don't remember my first specific moment hearing about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was pretty soon after you graduated from college that you applied?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.318028482236173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So when I was App State, most of my summers were spent actually working at the Gregory Poole Equipment Company. I was a maintenance assistant and I did a lot of painting in the summer heat, especially those yellow poles that you see all over the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, how did you become aware of the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember my first exact exposure to it. A couple of my friends when I was in either late high school or early college had done it, and so it was on my radar as soon as I entered college and just something I had always, always thought about it, about doing it. And but again, I don't remember my first specific moment hearing about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was pretty soon after you graduated from college that you applied?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. I think I applied within a few weeks after graduating. And it had always been kind of something on the, uh, I'd always thought about. But what really sealed it for me was when I went to Bolivia in 2008 with Appalachian State study abroad course, and we went down there for three weeks on a social change and leadership course. And that was my first time out of the United States. That was the, that just opened a lot of doors for me and exposed me to a lot of things and really showed me the value of. It changed my perspective on service completely. And that's what directly led me to apply for the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you applied to the Peace Corps, did you have to take any kind of entrance exam or just fill out paperwork?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.02003164692908, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember my first exact exposure to it. A couple of my friends when I was in either late high school or early college had done it, and so it was on my radar as soon as I entered college and just something I had always, always thought about it, about doing it. And but again, I don't remember my first specific moment hearing about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was pretty soon after you graduated from college that you applied?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. I think I applied within a few weeks after graduating. And it had always been kind of something on the, uh, I'd always thought about. But what really sealed it for me was when I went to Bolivia in 2008 with Appalachian State study abroad course, and we went down there for three weeks on a social change and leadership course. And that was my first time out of the United States. That was the, that just opened a lot of doors for me and exposed me to a lot of things and really showed me the value of. It changed my perspective on service completely. And that's what directly led me to apply for the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you applied to the Peace Corps, did you have to take any kind of entrance exam or just fill out paperwork?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No exam, there was just paperwork and an interview I think were the most of the involvement in that process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the interview take place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.800035163254535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. I think I applied within a few weeks after graduating. And it had always been kind of something on the, uh, I'd always thought about. But what really sealed it for me was when I went to Bolivia in 2008 with Appalachian State study abroad course, and we went down there for three weeks on a social change and leadership course. And that was my first time out of the United States. That was the, that just opened a lot of doors for me and exposed me to a lot of things and really showed me the value of. It changed my perspective on service completely. And that's what directly led me to apply for the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you applied to the Peace Corps, did you have to take any kind of entrance exam or just fill out paperwork?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No exam, there was just paperwork and an interview I think were the most of the involvement in that process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the interview take place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it took place on the NC State campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Well, from the time of your application to the time you got your invitation, how long was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.333372403616151, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No exam, there was just paperwork and an interview I think were the most of the involvement in that process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the interview take place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it took place on the NC State campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Well, from the time of your application to the time you got your invitation, how long was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think I got my application in January 2009 and got the invitation. It was either October, I want to say November 2009, so about ten months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after that, when did training start?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.814858226240167, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it took place on the NC State campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Well, from the time of your application to the time you got your invitation, how long was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think I got my application in January 2009 and got the invitation. It was either October, I want to say November 2009, so about ten months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after that, when did training start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So from there it was about 4 to 5 months later. Training began the very end of March 2010."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did the training take place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.016509140266852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think I got my application in January 2009 and got the invitation. It was either October, I want to say November 2009, so about ten months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after that, when did training start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So from there it was about 4 to 5 months later. Training began the very end of March 2010."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did the training take place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My training was in the small village of Semenivka in Ukraine, which was in the Kyiv Oblast, oblast being a word for kind of region. And that was about an hour or two from Kyiv, which is the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in a group of other trainees?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.351676822518723, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So from there it was about 4 to 5 months later. Training began the very end of March 2010."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did the training take place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My training was in the small village of Semenivka in Ukraine, which was in the Kyiv Oblast, oblast being a word for kind of region. And that was about an hour or two from Kyiv, which is the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in a group of other trainees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there was about 75 of us that, or 77 I should say, that went over to Ukraine at the same time. And then in my training village of Semenivka, there was myself and four other volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Now, does did Ukraine have a history of having Peace Corps volunteers work in the country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.724085358354136, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My training was in the small village of Semenivka in Ukraine, which was in the Kyiv Oblast, oblast being a word for kind of region. And that was about an hour or two from Kyiv, which is the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in a group of other trainees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there was about 75 of us that, or 77 I should say, that went over to Ukraine at the same time. And then in my training village of Semenivka, there was myself and four other volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Now, does did Ukraine have a history of having Peace Corps volunteers work in the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So we were the 38th group that, and groups had been coming about twice a year. So there was definitely, definitely previous volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did your training in country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.248983731504595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there was about 75 of us that, or 77 I should say, that went over to Ukraine at the same time. And then in my training village of Semenivka, there was myself and four other volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Now, does did Ukraine have a history of having Peace Corps volunteers work in the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So we were the 38th group that, and groups had been coming about twice a year. So there was definitely, definitely previous volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did your training in country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you think when you first arrived and how did you get to your training site?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.498870812782883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So we were the 38th group that, and groups had been coming about twice a year. So there was definitely, definitely previous volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did your training in country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you think when you first arrived and how did you get to your training site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when we first got to Ukraine, we spent I want to say two or three nights at an old Soviet facility for kind of orientation arrival. And it was dark and it was still cold in March, there was snow on the ground. And my first kind of thoughts were, you know, what have I gotten myself into? But in talking to other volunteers, I wasn't the only one. And from there, everything was happening so fast and we're being thrown tons of information. So those few days are still kind of a blur, but I still remember them very clear at the same time. But from there, we took busses with our cluster and to the various training sites from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a mixed group of men and women?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.776523125314315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you think when you first arrived and how did you get to your training site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when we first got to Ukraine, we spent I want to say two or three nights at an old Soviet facility for kind of orientation arrival. And it was dark and it was still cold in March, there was snow on the ground. And my first kind of thoughts were, you know, what have I gotten myself into? But in talking to other volunteers, I wasn't the only one. And from there, everything was happening so fast and we're being thrown tons of information. So those few days are still kind of a blur, but I still remember them very clear at the same time. But from there, we took busses with our cluster and to the various training sites from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a mixed group of men and women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah, men and women, all different ages. I think we had one gentleman who was 79 at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any married couples or was everybody single?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.196136805904793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when we first got to Ukraine, we spent I want to say two or three nights at an old Soviet facility for kind of orientation arrival. And it was dark and it was still cold in March, there was snow on the ground. And my first kind of thoughts were, you know, what have I gotten myself into? But in talking to other volunteers, I wasn't the only one. And from there, everything was happening so fast and we're being thrown tons of information. So those few days are still kind of a blur, but I still remember them very clear at the same time. But from there, we took busses with our cluster and to the various training sites from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was a mixed group of men and women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah, men and women, all different ages. I think we had one gentleman who was 79 at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any married couples or was everybody single?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes, there were two, I want to say two or three married couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was everybody destined to do teaching or had the trainees had teacher training experience or they had teacher education degrees?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.662374228783102, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah, men and women, all different ages. I think we had one gentleman who was 79 at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any married couples or was everybody single?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes, there were two, I want to say two or three married couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was everybody destined to do teaching or had the trainees had teacher training experience or they had teacher education degrees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think everyone did not necessarily have a certain degree and we had different experiences and different backgrounds. Ukraine works in three different programs. They have youth development, which I was a part of, community development, and TEFL, teaching English as a foreign language. So in our Group 38 there was about 50 youth development volunteers and the rest were community development. So 27 approximately, give or take. And then the TEFL teachers come in the other group. So like Group 39, for example, Group 37, on the other ends of 38 were all TEFL teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. And learning about the host country, was that done in orientation or did that continue through your training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.069304698647892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes, there were two, I want to say two or three married couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was everybody destined to do teaching or had the trainees had teacher training experience or they had teacher education degrees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think everyone did not necessarily have a certain degree and we had different experiences and different backgrounds. Ukraine works in three different programs. They have youth development, which I was a part of, community development, and TEFL, teaching English as a foreign language. So in our Group 38 there was about 50 youth development volunteers and the rest were community development. So 27 approximately, give or take. And then the TEFL teachers come in the other group. So like Group 39, for example, Group 37, on the other ends of 38 were all TEFL teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. And learning about the host country, was that done in orientation or did that continue through your training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That continued throughout my training and until the very last day I was in Ukraine, not as official, but there was definitely trainings about, intentional trainings throughout training about Ukrainian history, Ukrainian culture, and Ukrainian way of life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And including language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.69049962796036, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That continued throughout my training and until the very last day I was in Ukraine, not as official, but there was definitely trainings about, intentional trainings throughout training about Ukrainian history, Ukrainian culture, and Ukrainian way of life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And including language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. We had 4 to 5 hours of language classes every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a group that learned Ukrainian. And again, it was probably 60% of the clusters learned Ukrainian and 40% of the clusters learned Russian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular reason for that? Is the country bilingual then, Ukrainian and Russian speakers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.767221808844845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. We had 4 to 5 hours of language classes every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a group that learned Ukrainian. And again, it was probably 60% of the clusters learned Ukrainian and 40% of the clusters learned Russian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular reason for that? Is the country bilingual then, Ukrainian and Russian speakers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think I would say the majority of Ukrainians understand and can speak both languages fluently. The Ukrainian, no matter what is spoken in the home, Ukrainian is taught and used in schools. But at the same time, there's lots of Russian on TV, for example. But we were assigned by Peace Corps a certain one of the languages to learn based off where they'd be sending us in the country. So in the western part generally speaks Ukrainian, the eastern part generally speaks Russian. And then through the middles is a mix of kind of both that has commonly been referred to as Surzhyk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was doing your language training? Do you have native speakers that were your teachers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.963579787605383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a group that learned Ukrainian. And again, it was probably 60% of the clusters learned Ukrainian and 40% of the clusters learned Russian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular reason for that? Is the country bilingual then, Ukrainian and Russian speakers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think I would say the majority of Ukrainians understand and can speak both languages fluently. The Ukrainian, no matter what is spoken in the home, Ukrainian is taught and used in schools. But at the same time, there's lots of Russian on TV, for example. But we were assigned by Peace Corps a certain one of the languages to learn based off where they'd be sending us in the country. So in the western part generally speaks Ukrainian, the eastern part generally speaks Russian. And then through the middles is a mix of kind of both that has commonly been referred to as Surzhyk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was doing your language training? Do you have native speakers that were your teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So all the teachers, language teachers, were Ukrainians who also were fluent in English and could explain things if need be in our native language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any expectation that you would reach a certain level of competence in the language to be able to function?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.181755319561535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think I would say the majority of Ukrainians understand and can speak both languages fluently. The Ukrainian, no matter what is spoken in the home, Ukrainian is taught and used in schools. But at the same time, there's lots of Russian on TV, for example. But we were assigned by Peace Corps a certain one of the languages to learn based off where they'd be sending us in the country. So in the western part generally speaks Ukrainian, the eastern part generally speaks Russian. And then through the middles is a mix of kind of both that has commonly been referred to as Surzhyk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was doing your language training? Do you have native speakers that were your teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So all the teachers, language teachers, were Ukrainians who also were fluent in English and could explain things if need be in our native language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any expectation that you would reach a certain level of competence in the language to be able to function?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So they have a different, they have a scale of how far you've gone in a particular language and the, uh, you needed to be intermediate mid is what they called it for the youth development project. And I think just intermediate low for the community development or for, sorry for the TEFL program, because they're likely just not going to be speaking as much Ukrainian and Russian. But for me it was intermediate mid and I came out of training with intermediate high. So I was, uh, I was all right in that boat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So would you characterize yourself as motivated to learn the language? Enjoyed learning the language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.09083924395726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So all the teachers, language teachers, were Ukrainians who also were fluent in English and could explain things if need be in our native language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any expectation that you would reach a certain level of competence in the language to be able to function?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So they have a different, they have a scale of how far you've gone in a particular language and the, uh, you needed to be intermediate mid is what they called it for the youth development project. And I think just intermediate low for the community development or for, sorry for the TEFL program, because they're likely just not going to be speaking as much Ukrainian and Russian. But for me it was intermediate mid and I came out of training with intermediate high. So I was, uh, I was all right in that boat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So would you characterize yourself as motivated to learn the language? Enjoyed learning the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I went in really kind of fearful of it because I'd never really learned and then spoken a foreign language. So I actually spent a month before leaving for Ukraine, I spent an hour every day looking at the alphabet, looking at some of the basic phrases that Peace Corps had sent us ahead of time, to try to get a jump start on it. And I'm really glad I did, as I felt it paid off during training. And I quickly saw, especially in a village of 600 people in Semenivka, and then when once I got to my site as well, that you learn Ukrainian or not communicate for a couple of years. And as well as just the immense appreciation that Ukrainians had for us when trying to learn their language was a huge way just to build relationships and build trust and enabling us to work together more effectively."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the teaching done with conversation or written lessons, or was there a mix?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.100932493285844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So they have a different, they have a scale of how far you've gone in a particular language and the, uh, you needed to be intermediate mid is what they called it for the youth development project. And I think just intermediate low for the community development or for, sorry for the TEFL program, because they're likely just not going to be speaking as much Ukrainian and Russian. But for me it was intermediate mid and I came out of training with intermediate high. So I was, uh, I was all right in that boat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So would you characterize yourself as motivated to learn the language? Enjoyed learning the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I went in really kind of fearful of it because I'd never really learned and then spoken a foreign language. So I actually spent a month before leaving for Ukraine, I spent an hour every day looking at the alphabet, looking at some of the basic phrases that Peace Corps had sent us ahead of time, to try to get a jump start on it. And I'm really glad I did, as I felt it paid off during training. And I quickly saw, especially in a village of 600 people in Semenivka, and then when once I got to my site as well, that you learn Ukrainian or not communicate for a couple of years. And as well as just the immense appreciation that Ukrainians had for us when trying to learn their language was a huge way just to build relationships and build trust and enabling us to work together more effectively."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the teaching done with conversation or written lessons, or was there a mix?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a mix. I thought Peace Corps had done a great job with the design of their language classes. Like you said, there were conversations that we had to practice. There were role plays, there were written exercises, there were homework assignments where we had to find out something from our host family, for example, in Ukrainian. I feel like they, yeah, they covered kind of every tactic possible almost to learn a language and I thought that was really effective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were living with a host family during your training and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.22325832587316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I went in really kind of fearful of it because I'd never really learned and then spoken a foreign language. So I actually spent a month before leaving for Ukraine, I spent an hour every day looking at the alphabet, looking at some of the basic phrases that Peace Corps had sent us ahead of time, to try to get a jump start on it. And I'm really glad I did, as I felt it paid off during training. And I quickly saw, especially in a village of 600 people in Semenivka, and then when once I got to my site as well, that you learn Ukrainian or not communicate for a couple of years. And as well as just the immense appreciation that Ukrainians had for us when trying to learn their language was a huge way just to build relationships and build trust and enabling us to work together more effectively."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the teaching done with conversation or written lessons, or was there a mix?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a mix. I thought Peace Corps had done a great job with the design of their language classes. Like you said, there were conversations that we had to practice. There were role plays, there were written exercises, there were homework assignments where we had to find out something from our host family, for example, in Ukrainian. I feel like they, yeah, they covered kind of every tactic possible almost to learn a language and I thought that was really effective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were living with a host family during your training and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us something about that. How was the host family and what was that experience like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.359175917636845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a mix. I thought Peace Corps had done a great job with the design of their language classes. Like you said, there were conversations that we had to practice. There were role plays, there were written exercises, there were homework assignments where we had to find out something from our host family, for example, in Ukrainian. I feel like they, yeah, they covered kind of every tactic possible almost to learn a language and I thought that was really effective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were living with a host family during your training and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us something about that. How was the host family and what was that experience like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really enjoyed it. I lived with a father and a mother and then they had two children, a son and a daughter who were both, I would say, in their young twenties at the time I was there. Both knew some English. The brother particularly was really good, but they were both in Kyiv in university and so I didn't see them a whole lot. But it was a great way to, uh, it was part of really the language and the culture and history. It's you get a look into all of that and especially with the language of just being immersed in that environment and the TV has Ukrainian on or really forcing us to communicate needs in Ukrainian. And it was, uh, you know, by the end of training we were a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Did anyone from Peace Corps Washington come to your training either prior to going to your training city or at any time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.510195464040939, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us something about that. How was the host family and what was that experience like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really enjoyed it. I lived with a father and a mother and then they had two children, a son and a daughter who were both, I would say, in their young twenties at the time I was there. Both knew some English. The brother particularly was really good, but they were both in Kyiv in university and so I didn't see them a whole lot. But it was a great way to, uh, it was part of really the language and the culture and history. It's you get a look into all of that and especially with the language of just being immersed in that environment and the TV has Ukrainian on or really forcing us to communicate needs in Ukrainian. And it was, uh, you know, by the end of training we were a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Did anyone from Peace Corps Washington come to your training either prior to going to your training city or at any time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't believe so. Anyone from Peace Corps? I don't remember seeing really anyone from Peace Corps Washington during training at all. There were a few U.S. staff based in Kyiv and at least one of them came to visit our particular training site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a Peace Corps staff in country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.789106071156597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really enjoyed it. I lived with a father and a mother and then they had two children, a son and a daughter who were both, I would say, in their young twenties at the time I was there. Both knew some English. The brother particularly was really good, but they were both in Kyiv in university and so I didn't see them a whole lot. But it was a great way to, uh, it was part of really the language and the culture and history. It's you get a look into all of that and especially with the language of just being immersed in that environment and the TV has Ukrainian on or really forcing us to communicate needs in Ukrainian. And it was, uh, you know, by the end of training we were a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very good. Did anyone from Peace Corps Washington come to your training either prior to going to your training city or at any time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't believe so. Anyone from Peace Corps? I don't remember seeing really anyone from Peace Corps Washington during training at all. There were a few U.S. staff based in Kyiv and at least one of them came to visit our particular training site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a Peace Corps staff in country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. There are three of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you find out what area of the country you'd be going to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.765673412396218, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't believe so. Anyone from Peace Corps? I don't remember seeing really anyone from Peace Corps Washington during training at all. There were a few U.S. staff based in Kyiv and at least one of them came to visit our particular training site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a Peace Corps staff in country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. There are three of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you find out what area of the country you'd be going to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we actually found out at the transition slash the swearing in conference. So after we had gone through the ten weeks or so of training, we made it to June, and all the volunteers gathered in Kyiv and we had two or three, maybe even four day conference. And it was there that we found out where we were going, and we'd all been anxiously waiting to hear for a long time at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did everybody make it through the training or were there some that did not?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.850748235995798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. There are three of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you find out what area of the country you'd be going to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we actually found out at the transition slash the swearing in conference. So after we had gone through the ten weeks or so of training, we made it to June, and all the volunteers gathered in Kyiv and we had two or three, maybe even four day conference. And it was there that we found out where we were going, and we'd all been anxiously waiting to hear for a long time at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did everybody make it through the training or were there some that did not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a few that did not. I want to say there were probably about three that did not make it through for various reasons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Was there are any kind of peer ratings of other trainees or was it all done by staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.056386928884221, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we actually found out at the transition slash the swearing in conference. So after we had gone through the ten weeks or so of training, we made it to June, and all the volunteers gathered in Kyiv and we had two or three, maybe even four day conference. And it was there that we found out where we were going, and we'd all been anxiously waiting to hear for a long time at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did everybody make it through the training or were there some that did not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a few that did not. I want to say there were probably about three that did not make it through for various reasons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Was there are any kind of peer ratings of other trainees or was it all done by staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In terms of, yeah, in terms of evaluation that was all from the staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any knowledge among the group of trainees that there was a possibility you could not be sworn in or you might be sent back to the States?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.395985476538023, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a few that did not. I want to say there were probably about three that did not make it through for various reasons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Was there are any kind of peer ratings of other trainees or was it all done by staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In terms of, yeah, in terms of evaluation that was all from the staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any knowledge among the group of trainees that there was a possibility you could not be sworn in or you might be sent back to the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think. That was not a feeling that I picked up on and or a conversation that I had with anyone, just from my experience. That was not something I came across."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your feeling was during the training that it was just a process that you had to get through, and you were going to get through it and take your assignment and run with it, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.88442830726447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In terms of, yeah, in terms of evaluation that was all from the staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any knowledge among the group of trainees that there was a possibility you could not be sworn in or you might be sent back to the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think. That was not a feeling that I picked up on and or a conversation that I had with anyone, just from my experience. That was not something I came across."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your feeling was during the training that it was just a process that you had to get through, and you were going to get through it and take your assignment and run with it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Because I really feel people wanted to be there and people were, and especially with a close group of volunteers around you to support you and push you when needed, that just everyone was going to make it through. And, you know, that's what we were there to do was to, uh, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. And but yeah, there was no fear that I picked up on in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did, uh, about your contact with home. What were you telling your family during the training time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.5382536747383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think. That was not a feeling that I picked up on and or a conversation that I had with anyone, just from my experience. That was not something I came across."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your feeling was during the training that it was just a process that you had to get through, and you were going to get through it and take your assignment and run with it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Because I really feel people wanted to be there and people were, and especially with a close group of volunteers around you to support you and push you when needed, that just everyone was going to make it through. And, you know, that's what we were there to do was to, uh, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. And but yeah, there was no fear that I picked up on in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did, uh, about your contact with home. What were you telling your family during the training time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say I talked to them probably once a month during training. I was able to get them on phone one way or another, and a few emails here and there when we went into the larger cities. But I was just kind of, I was taking in things. There was so much to be processed, being in a new country and new language and new weather and everything was new. And so just trying to process it and cut that down to a way where they could understand and get a glimpse into what I was experiencing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you develop any friendships with people in the training group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.153615194153666, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Because I really feel people wanted to be there and people were, and especially with a close group of volunteers around you to support you and push you when needed, that just everyone was going to make it through. And, you know, that's what we were there to do was to, uh, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. And but yeah, there was no fear that I picked up on in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did, uh, about your contact with home. What were you telling your family during the training time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say I talked to them probably once a month during training. I was able to get them on phone one way or another, and a few emails here and there when we went into the larger cities. But I was just kind of, I was taking in things. There was so much to be processed, being in a new country and new language and new weather and everything was new. And so just trying to process it and cut that down to a way where they could understand and get a glimpse into what I was experiencing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you develop any friendships with people in the training group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I am still in touch more or less with all four of them and saw one of them just the end of August, so a couple of months ago. So definitely. Definitely some lifelong friends from the training group and other Peace Corps volunteers as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other comments about training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.726239104615185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say I talked to them probably once a month during training. I was able to get them on phone one way or another, and a few emails here and there when we went into the larger cities. But I was just kind of, I was taking in things. There was so much to be processed, being in a new country and new language and new weather and everything was new. And so just trying to process it and cut that down to a way where they could understand and get a glimpse into what I was experiencing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you develop any friendships with people in the training group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I am still in touch more or less with all four of them and saw one of them just the end of August, so a couple of months ago. So definitely. Definitely some lifelong friends from the training group and other Peace Corps volunteers as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other comments about training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one other thing that sticks out for my training experience was there was a group of children probably, uh, higher elementary school, lower middle school in that age group, that lived on the street that two of the host families were stationed. And we ended up playing a lot of games and a lot of soccer with them after the day's lessons were over. And that was just really incredible. And that it was youth development in its own way. It was a chance for us to just play sports and have fun and connect with these kids without that language barrier. And that was a favorite memory from training. And when every time we went back to Semenivka, I ended up playing with them and hanging out for the afternoon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After training, was there any kind of break? You stayed in country or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.362487894016873, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I am still in touch more or less with all four of them and saw one of them just the end of August, so a couple of months ago. So definitely. Definitely some lifelong friends from the training group and other Peace Corps volunteers as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other comments about training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one other thing that sticks out for my training experience was there was a group of children probably, uh, higher elementary school, lower middle school in that age group, that lived on the street that two of the host families were stationed. And we ended up playing a lot of games and a lot of soccer with them after the day's lessons were over. And that was just really incredible. And that it was youth development in its own way. It was a chance for us to just play sports and have fun and connect with these kids without that language barrier. And that was a favorite memory from training. And when every time we went back to Semenivka, I ended up playing with them and hanging out for the afternoon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After training, was there any kind of break? You stayed in country or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah. From so from training, the three or four day swearing in conference, and then right to our sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so when you left the U.S., what was your route to get to Ukraine?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.847208771129859, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one other thing that sticks out for my training experience was there was a group of children probably, uh, higher elementary school, lower middle school in that age group, that lived on the street that two of the host families were stationed. And we ended up playing a lot of games and a lot of soccer with them after the day's lessons were over. And that was just really incredible. And that it was youth development in its own way. It was a chance for us to just play sports and have fun and connect with these kids without that language barrier. And that was a favorite memory from training. And when every time we went back to Semenivka, I ended up playing with them and hanging out for the afternoon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After training, was there any kind of break? You stayed in country or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah. From so from training, the three or four day swearing in conference, and then right to our sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so when you left the U.S., what was your route to get to Ukraine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The route to get to Ukraine. We all the volunteers in our group met in Washington, D.C., [coughs] excuse me. And then from there, I believe we flew to Frankfurt, Germany, and from Frankfurt on to Kyiv."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. So there was a pretty long flight. When you got to Kyiv, was there any ceremony or anything, anybody to greet you or at the airport?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.49689863458873, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah. From so from training, the three or four day swearing in conference, and then right to our sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so when you left the U.S., what was your route to get to Ukraine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The route to get to Ukraine. We all the volunteers in our group met in Washington, D.C., [coughs] excuse me. And then from there, I believe we flew to Frankfurt, Germany, and from Frankfurt on to Kyiv."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. So there was a pretty long flight. When you got to Kyiv, was there any ceremony or anything, anybody to greet you or at the airport?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were a few Peace Corps staff there, and they had signs and there was one staff member collecting our passports. So that was kind of a test of trust, it was just, oh, here's our passport. But it worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember who the country director was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.218776260654145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The route to get to Ukraine. We all the volunteers in our group met in Washington, D.C., [coughs] excuse me. And then from there, I believe we flew to Frankfurt, Germany, and from Frankfurt on to Kyiv."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. So there was a pretty long flight. When you got to Kyiv, was there any ceremony or anything, anybody to greet you or at the airport?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were a few Peace Corps staff there, and they had signs and there was one staff member collecting our passports. So that was kind of a test of trust, it was just, oh, here's our passport. But it worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember who the country director was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. It was Douglas Teschner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of guy was he?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.02086251183794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were a few Peace Corps staff there, and they had signs and there was one staff member collecting our passports. So that was kind of a test of trust, it was just, oh, here's our passport. But it worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember who the country director was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. It was Douglas Teschner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of guy was he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was great. He's very energetic, well-spoken, very positive all the time. And I think he was a former state or local politician, but absolutely a big believer in the mission. Was very, very responsive to volunteers' needs and to emails. I can't imagine how many emails he got a day, but he'd always respond. And that was a great feeling for me being in a new place. And he is actually a country director in I want to say Sierra Leone now, but he's still, he's still doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you, um. At what point did you feel comfortable speaking the language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.68984723537549, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. It was Douglas Teschner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of guy was he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was great. He's very energetic, well-spoken, very positive all the time. And I think he was a former state or local politician, but absolutely a big believer in the mission. Was very, very responsive to volunteers' needs and to emails. I can't imagine how many emails he got a day, but he'd always respond. And that was a great feeling for me being in a new place. And he is actually a country director in I want to say Sierra Leone now, but he's still, he's still doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you, um. At what point did you feel comfortable speaking the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I felt comfortable going, uh, going into after training into my site having tested at intermediate high. That was, I felt good about the language in general and that was a good kind of affirmation of OK, you've done some work, you've learned some things. So I felt comfortable. I think when I remember specifically this meeting I had with my school director in November of that first year at site, November 2010. And when we had a discussion, just my director and I, about an HIV AIDS project or some ideas for the HIV AIDS Awareness Week or Day, and I understood that whole conversation taking it through. And that's when I was like, OK, now I've really got this language thing down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get any ongoing language training or was the initial shot, was that it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.259178837639823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So we had volunteers throughout the training process from the arrival retreat. Someone came in and spoke to us. I'm actually still good friends with her. And she's now out in Seattle. And then during the training, we had a couple of people, I guess one person had adopted a cluster program. So the volunteer who is currently at site would adopt a particular cluster of the trainings and go and visit them and talk to them and share experiences, answer questions, etc. And then as well, at the swearing in conference, several volunteers came to speak about different initiatives within the Peace Corps organization that volunteers could connect with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you were on site, what provisions were there in case of emergency, what to do or who to contact?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So with an emergency, we had a handbook of what, you know, what the process was. Numbers to call within Peace Corps and as well as. So, yeah, the handbook, the numbers to call, who to contact. As well as within the first week at site in Rudky and as well as the volunteers at their sites all across the country. We needed to get up with the local police and introduce ourself, get their contact information, draw a map of our town for our own benefit, understand the ways to get out of town to local districts or larger cities, and how to get to Kyiv, etc. So we were given some information on one hand and then also had a very strict assignment of finding out certain information on our own in case something did happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. During orientation, was there any mention of the political situation in the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did review current politics to some extent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at that time, things were pretty stable?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.954643152933137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So with an emergency, we had a handbook of what, you know, what the process was. Numbers to call within Peace Corps and as well as. So, yeah, the handbook, the numbers to call, who to contact. As well as within the first week at site in Rudky and as well as the volunteers at their sites all across the country. We needed to get up with the local police and introduce ourself, get their contact information, draw a map of our town for our own benefit, understand the ways to get out of town to local districts or larger cities, and how to get to Kyiv, etc. So we were given some information on one hand and then also had a very strict assignment of finding out certain information on our own in case something did happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. During orientation, was there any mention of the political situation in the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did review current politics to some extent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at that time, things were pretty stable?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, in 2010, the president I think had just been, President Viktor Yanukovych had just been elected within the past couple months. And so everything was relatively stable and, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in your talking about your assignment, was there any choice involved or preference for a particular assignment? Anybody on the staff ask you about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.616270169925706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did review current politics to some extent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at that time, things were pretty stable?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, in 2010, the president I think had just been, President Viktor Yanukovych had just been elected within the past couple months. And so everything was relatively stable and, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in your talking about your assignment, was there any choice involved or preference for a particular assignment? Anybody on the staff ask you about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I think during week six or so of the ten weeks of training, we had site interviews with some two or three members of the Peace Corps staff. So they'd ask us some questions, more about our background, what we're interested in doing here in Ukraine. How's training going? Because they have all the sites in their minds and then getting to know us better, they were able to piece together what would be good fits. And so they asked us certain preferences on what kind of work we'd be doing, what kind of the size of a city we might want to live in, host family or no host family. So they took that into mind while making their decisions. But we by no means could directly choose something. It was here are our general preferences. And then they made the final decisions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the place where you ended up. Tell us a little bit about it, its geography, how far it was from the big city."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.524112437015257, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I would say the terrain. Generally it was kind of a forest area, I would say, is the best way to describe it. Relatively flat, although there were some almost rolls. Because in the western Ukraine is also where the Carpathian Mountains are. So it's relatively close to that area. So it wasn't completely flat. And then as far as what people did for a living, so the school. There's also a hospital. And now I'm thinking of these other aspects of the town, but a small college and the shops as well. So the educational institutions, the shops, and the hospital were all the major places of employment. And there was a significant number of people who would take the bus an hour to Lviv and back every day to go work in Lviv."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the bus. That's the way you got to your assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, absolutely. And we took, originally we took a train from Kyiv to Lviv and then from Lviv to took a bus to Rudky. And that's absolutely the main form of transportation I used, although if I had to go across the country or halfway across the country, it was train was the choice then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got to Rudky, did somebody meet you and pick you up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually at the swearing in conference, we had what was called a counterpart or like a representative from the organization who would be our primary contact for the two years. And so this person, Oksana Valerivna, met me in Kyiv and then we traveled by train together to Lviv. In Lviv, my host organization, the secondary school, had sent the bus, their school bus, to Lviv to pick me up and Oksana. So we, Oksana and I and the bus driver, we all drove back to Rudky. And there was my host grandmother was waiting for me in her house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.13790270779473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, absolutely. And we took, originally we took a train from Kyiv to Lviv and then from Lviv to took a bus to Rudky. And that's absolutely the main form of transportation I used, although if I had to go across the country or halfway across the country, it was train was the choice then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got to Rudky, did somebody meet you and pick you up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually at the swearing in conference, we had what was called a counterpart or like a representative from the organization who would be our primary contact for the two years. And so this person, Oksana Valerivna, met me in Kyiv and then we traveled by train together to Lviv. In Lviv, my host organization, the secondary school, had sent the bus, their school bus, to Lviv to pick me up and Oksana. So we, Oksana and I and the bus driver, we all drove back to Rudky. And there was my host grandmother was waiting for me in her house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There had been another one previously who worked at the gymnasium, kind of the other school option that I mentioned. But she and she did not stay the entire time. She had gone home early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so how close was the nearest Peace Corps volunteer? Other Peace Corps volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.708780786438588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually at the swearing in conference, we had what was called a counterpart or like a representative from the organization who would be our primary contact for the two years. And so this person, Oksana Valerivna, met me in Kyiv and then we traveled by train together to Lviv. In Lviv, my host organization, the secondary school, had sent the bus, their school bus, to Lviv to pick me up and Oksana. So we, Oksana and I and the bus driver, we all drove back to Rudky. And there was my host grandmother was waiting for me in her house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There had been another one previously who worked at the gymnasium, kind of the other school option that I mentioned. But she and she did not stay the entire time. She had gone home early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so how close was the nearest Peace Corps volunteer? Other Peace Corps volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The closest one was about 20 minutes by bus. There was a bunch of us in the Lviv Oblast, the Lviv region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So after the time you'd spent in training, socializing with the group members, was it a little bit wrenching to be on your own and out in the boonies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.12086754048732, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There had been another one previously who worked at the gymnasium, kind of the other school option that I mentioned. But she and she did not stay the entire time. She had gone home early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so how close was the nearest Peace Corps volunteer? Other Peace Corps volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The closest one was about 20 minutes by bus. There was a bunch of us in the Lviv Oblast, the Lviv region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So after the time you'd spent in training, socializing with the group members, was it a little bit wrenching to be on your own and out in the boonies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. After ten weeks in Semenivka, it was kind of at the point of I was feeling, starting to feel comfortable at that point, and as well as with being with a few volunteers to kind of have that connection to home every day. And then so when it came time to leave that after, it's like, OK, here we go to another transition. I thought we had just done this. And then getting to Rudky I remember I kind of asked myself the same question as I did at the arrival retreat of what have I gotten myself into? And I'm going to be here for two years. You know, I'm okay with the language, but I don't know anyone. I don't know what I'm going to do with work. What difference can I make? Type questions when I got there. So it was tough in some ways, but the overwhelming hospitality of Rudky made that transition a lot easier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was telephone service to the town."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 15.689852822763688, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The closest one was about 20 minutes by bus. There was a bunch of us in the Lviv Oblast, the Lviv region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So after the time you'd spent in training, socializing with the group members, was it a little bit wrenching to be on your own and out in the boonies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. After ten weeks in Semenivka, it was kind of at the point of I was feeling, starting to feel comfortable at that point, and as well as with being with a few volunteers to kind of have that connection to home every day. And then so when it came time to leave that after, it's like, OK, here we go to another transition. I thought we had just done this. And then getting to Rudky I remember I kind of asked myself the same question as I did at the arrival retreat of what have I gotten myself into? And I'm going to be here for two years. You know, I'm okay with the language, but I don't know anyone. I don't know what I'm going to do with work. What difference can I make? Type questions when I got there. So it was tough in some ways, but the overwhelming hospitality of Rudky made that transition a lot easier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was telephone service to the town."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So tell us a little bit about your living conditions and settling into your home with your host family."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.728213361436651, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So tell us a little bit about your living conditions and settling into your home with your host family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I lived with a host grandmother, Sophia, and she's in her seventies. She actually spent a few years in the United States. She came and worked in New Jersey, I believe it was, for about three or four years, but was with Ukrainian community and with Ukrainian families and actually learned very little English. Which was fine because, again, she was one of my main teachers of Ukrainian and just listening to her talk and tell stories. But she was, I still remember the first time, she just, ah. Despite being in her 70s, she's just so energetic and so warm and she's just standing out on her porch like I think she's started reciting a Ukrainian poem that she loves to do and welcomed me in and had this huge meal prepared, which was definitely a foreshadowing of things to come for the next two and a half years. But so I knew I was in good hands right away.\n\nAnd I actually had two very comfortable rooms to myself. I still I think I still argue that I slept better in that bed than I have at any other location in my life. And so I had this kind of bedroom and then the dining room, and then Sophia had her two rooms and we shared a kitchen and shared a bathroom. And it was because of her work in the States, she was able to do some significant renovations on her house and it was very, very comfortable. And I would say very much what I grew up with. And so the living condition was, um, I'd say physically by no means a challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you had the modern conveniences?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. We even had a laundry machine. And so it was, yeah, I was very blessed in that area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about access to radio or TV?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.77557205115636, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. We even had a laundry machine. And so it was, yeah, I was very blessed in that area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about access to radio or TV?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Sofia had a TV with probably ten channels on it that I would watch every now and then. She usually had the radio going, especially during the summer when she was out working in her garden. And then with internet, I bought a kind of like a travel modem that I used for the first probably half year at site. And then after just kind of becoming frustrated with it, I had a satellite installed and that actually was something that became available while I was there. So the satellite wasn't available when I first got to Rudky but I got that installed. And so internet was probably my main source of electronic connection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did Peace Corps provide you with a computer or did you have your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did not. And a lot of the prep materials for coming to Ukraine, they suggested bringing it, or at least most of the volunteers I talked to suggested bringing it. So I brought my own personal one. And it's, yeah, it's not something that they had provided."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had your host grandmother hosted a Peace Corps volunteer previously?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.972857834618177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Sofia had a TV with probably ten channels on it that I would watch every now and then. She usually had the radio going, especially during the summer when she was out working in her garden. And then with internet, I bought a kind of like a travel modem that I used for the first probably half year at site. And then after just kind of becoming frustrated with it, I had a satellite installed and that actually was something that became available while I was there. So the satellite wasn't available when I first got to Rudky but I got that installed. And so internet was probably my main source of electronic connection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did Peace Corps provide you with a computer or did you have your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did not. And a lot of the prep materials for coming to Ukraine, they suggested bringing it, or at least most of the volunteers I talked to suggested bringing it. So I brought my own personal one. And it's, yeah, it's not something that they had provided."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had your host grandmother hosted a Peace Corps volunteer previously?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was her first, her first guest in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do your own shopping and cooking and cleaning?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.303175371797973, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did not. And a lot of the prep materials for coming to Ukraine, they suggested bringing it, or at least most of the volunteers I talked to suggested bringing it. So I brought my own personal one. And it's, yeah, it's not something that they had provided."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had your host grandmother hosted a Peace Corps volunteer previously?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was her first, her first guest in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do your own shopping and cooking and cleaning?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did get to help out with a lot of the shopping. I would. As Sophia got older, she was able to send me like with a list of things to get in town and I was able to pick that up and did some shopping for myself as well. She was, um, I guess, very traditional in terms of cleaning and cooking and that as a man I was not supposed to do any of that. Which was, it was a mixture, I would say, almost of some frustration at times of not having that independence, but also just really being grateful for how good care she was taking of me. And it was always funny. If I went into the kitchen to maybe put a dish away or do something, if I was in the kitchen, it meant I was hungry. And so she would start either asking or just start cooking something anyway. So it was always a game."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the shopping facilities like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.559083746442193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was her first, her first guest in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do your own shopping and cooking and cleaning?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did get to help out with a lot of the shopping. I would. As Sophia got older, she was able to send me like with a list of things to get in town and I was able to pick that up and did some shopping for myself as well. She was, um, I guess, very traditional in terms of cleaning and cooking and that as a man I was not supposed to do any of that. Which was, it was a mixture, I would say, almost of some frustration at times of not having that independence, but also just really being grateful for how good care she was taking of me. And it was always funny. If I went into the kitchen to maybe put a dish away or do something, if I was in the kitchen, it meant I was hungry. And so she would start either asking or just start cooking something anyway. So it was always a game."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the shopping facilities like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Rudky, they didn't have any of, anything comparable to Food Lion or Harris Teeter or what we might know. They had, I would say, almost little shops that are comparable to maybe like a market or like a gas station convenience store. But they had meats and fruits and bread and chips and water and everything that you would need, and eggs, but just very small size. And they did have what they called a bazaar, almost like a farmers’ market, that ran pretty much every day where you could buy anything you need in terms of food or clothes and other items that you just might need to grab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your settling in period, at what point were you would you say you were settled, you were comfortable, adjusted to the climate?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.510093051602436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did get to help out with a lot of the shopping. I would. As Sophia got older, she was able to send me like with a list of things to get in town and I was able to pick that up and did some shopping for myself as well. She was, um, I guess, very traditional in terms of cleaning and cooking and that as a man I was not supposed to do any of that. Which was, it was a mixture, I would say, almost of some frustration at times of not having that independence, but also just really being grateful for how good care she was taking of me. And it was always funny. If I went into the kitchen to maybe put a dish away or do something, if I was in the kitchen, it meant I was hungry. And so she would start either asking or just start cooking something anyway. So it was always a game."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the shopping facilities like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Rudky, they didn't have any of, anything comparable to Food Lion or Harris Teeter or what we might know. They had, I would say, almost little shops that are comparable to maybe like a market or like a gas station convenience store. But they had meats and fruits and bread and chips and water and everything that you would need, and eggs, but just very small size. And they did have what they called a bazaar, almost like a farmers’ market, that ran pretty much every day where you could buy anything you need in terms of food or clothes and other items that you just might need to grab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your settling in period, at what point were you would you say you were settled, you were comfortable, adjusted to the climate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say probably about a month or two. So we got there, I think it was mid-June, so maybe late July or into early August. I felt, OK, this is my, this is my home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in June, is that the warm time of the year in Ukraine or are the seasons are different than they are here?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.56677005733604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Rudky, they didn't have any of, anything comparable to Food Lion or Harris Teeter or what we might know. They had, I would say, almost little shops that are comparable to maybe like a market or like a gas station convenience store. But they had meats and fruits and bread and chips and water and everything that you would need, and eggs, but just very small size. And they did have what they called a bazaar, almost like a farmers’ market, that ran pretty much every day where you could buy anything you need in terms of food or clothes and other items that you just might need to grab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your settling in period, at what point were you would you say you were settled, you were comfortable, adjusted to the climate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say probably about a month or two. So we got there, I think it was mid-June, so maybe late July or into early August. I felt, OK, this is my, this is my home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in June, is that the warm time of the year in Ukraine or are the seasons are different than they are here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the seasons. The seasons match up right with what we experience here in the States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your health OK at that time? Did you have any health issues?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.629744508151155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say probably about a month or two. So we got there, I think it was mid-June, so maybe late July or into early August. I felt, OK, this is my, this is my home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in June, is that the warm time of the year in Ukraine or are the seasons are different than they are here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the seasons. The seasons match up right with what we experience here in the States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your health OK at that time? Did you have any health issues?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At this time, I had no health issues, this first summer, but I did severely sprain my ankle on a hill. And that was frustrating because it limited my mobility in a time where I had a lot of time because school was out and was, you know, it would have been nice to really get out and talk to people and have conversations. But so that was a test of patience, certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us a little about the school that you were working in conjunction with."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.588605009056838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the seasons. The seasons match up right with what we experience here in the States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your health OK at that time? Did you have any health issues?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At this time, I had no health issues, this first summer, but I did severely sprain my ankle on a hill. And that was frustrating because it limited my mobility in a time where I had a lot of time because school was out and was, you know, it would have been nice to really get out and talk to people and have conversations. But so that was a test of patience, certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us a little about the school that you were working in conjunction with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the school had about 500 students, about 75 or so teachers. I think that also included maintenance workers and other all staff of the school. At its peak actually had 1,200 students, but due to just lower in general of people moving out of Ukraine and out of Rudky as well as the opening of the gymnasium, that second school, it was down to 500 students. Oh yeah, a secondary school. So it was first grade through 11th grade is what they go through in Ukraine. And a school that had gotten a lot of, already a lot of recognition, I think, in the region for what they were doing, as well as possibly around Ukraine as a whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the students, were they all local from the town or did they come from the surrounding area as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.654005565618709, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At this time, I had no health issues, this first summer, but I did severely sprain my ankle on a hill. And that was frustrating because it limited my mobility in a time where I had a lot of time because school was out and was, you know, it would have been nice to really get out and talk to people and have conversations. But so that was a test of patience, certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us a little about the school that you were working in conjunction with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the school had about 500 students, about 75 or so teachers. I think that also included maintenance workers and other all staff of the school. At its peak actually had 1,200 students, but due to just lower in general of people moving out of Ukraine and out of Rudky as well as the opening of the gymnasium, that second school, it was down to 500 students. Oh yeah, a secondary school. So it was first grade through 11th grade is what they go through in Ukraine. And a school that had gotten a lot of, already a lot of recognition, I think, in the region for what they were doing, as well as possibly around Ukraine as a whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the students, were they all local from the town or did they come from the surrounding area as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as I know, they're all from the town of Rudky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many other teachers on the faculty?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.837783961798564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the school had about 500 students, about 75 or so teachers. I think that also included maintenance workers and other all staff of the school. At its peak actually had 1,200 students, but due to just lower in general of people moving out of Ukraine and out of Rudky as well as the opening of the gymnasium, that second school, it was down to 500 students. Oh yeah, a secondary school. So it was first grade through 11th grade is what they go through in Ukraine. And a school that had gotten a lot of, already a lot of recognition, I think, in the region for what they were doing, as well as possibly around Ukraine as a whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the students, were they all local from the town or did they come from the surrounding area as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as I know, they're all from the town of Rudky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many other teachers on the faculty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So teachers is probably 50 to 60 out of the 75 staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other non Ukrainian Europeans or? As teachers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.153093290887293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as I know, they're all from the town of Rudky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how many other teachers on the faculty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So teachers is probably 50 to 60 out of the 75 staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other non Ukrainian Europeans or? As teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. They were all Ukrainian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the kind of work you were doing, was it straight teaching of a subject? Did you have more of a youth development spin to what you were doing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.392325878763659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So teachers is probably 50 to 60 out of the 75 staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other non Ukrainian Europeans or? As teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. They were all Ukrainian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the kind of work you were doing, was it straight teaching of a subject? Did you have more of a youth development spin to what you were doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I, yeah, I think I would say I had absolutely the youth development spin. I did not have any classes per se. My work during the day, I went around to a lot of different classes, whether it be to sit in on a Ukrainian class and learn some Ukrainian. I helped a lot of the English teachers with their classes. I sat with a psychologist and we would plan ideas and projects and activities together. So the majority of my work came after school for extracurricular clubs and extracurricular activities in which I held a leadership club, English clubs, both at the school and in town, and as well as some sporting clubs were kind of my primary weekly activities. Additionally, again, I mentioned the partnership with the psychologist. We put together a lot of interactive trainings on youth development topics such as leadership, HIV AIDS, human trafficking, understanding people with disabilities more efficiently and more effectively.\n\nSo all kinds of these trainings to give during special events and special days, or come in and teach and do a kind of a substitute or guest teaching experience. And also some of my work involved just meeting with these different organizations of the community and seeing where I might be able to get involved there and connecting people together who had similar goals. So it was something different every day. And I really loved that variety as well of just seeing the, of trying to give the youth more opportunities in a town where there wasn't a whole lot for them to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the after school clubs and athletics, what would some of the typical activities of that type of club do besides play soccer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.252592407809264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd say yeah. There's probably a pretty good variety of what students are planning after the completion of secondary school. I think most of the ones I worked with in my clubs were planning to go to university. So that's what I remember the most of hearing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was discipline handled in the school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what I witnessed in my school and in most Ukrainian schools was that there weren't a whole lot of punishments for misbehavior or not doing an assignment per se. And as far as I know, I'm not sure if students can even really fail technically. And so I think the most frequent punishment was a good scolding or calling out in class. Calling them out in class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the headmaster of the school, was he or she a participant in any of your activities or supportive of what you were doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The director, principal, yeah. So she, Nadia, was very supportive of me being there and gave me a lot of freedom in my work and but also wasn't afraid to ask for certain things and request certain things of me. So I felt we had a great working relationship and she was so busy that she was tough to get a hold of sometimes and talk with and discuss some ideas, but always made the effort to talk with me. And we ended up doing, I guess, a couple events or classes together. But the majority of it was we didn't work directly together on a lot of things, but were always in communication about what we're up to respectively and ended up at a lot of events together, but just doing kind of separate things within that particular event."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got to your school after language training. And how long was it before you felt like you were accepted in being a part of the program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.05843600867696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what I witnessed in my school and in most Ukrainian schools was that there weren't a whole lot of punishments for misbehavior or not doing an assignment per se. And as far as I know, I'm not sure if students can even really fail technically. And so I think the most frequent punishment was a good scolding or calling out in class. Calling them out in class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the headmaster of the school, was he or she a participant in any of your activities or supportive of what you were doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The director, principal, yeah. So she, Nadia, was very supportive of me being there and gave me a lot of freedom in my work and but also wasn't afraid to ask for certain things and request certain things of me. So I felt we had a great working relationship and she was so busy that she was tough to get a hold of sometimes and talk with and discuss some ideas, but always made the effort to talk with me. And we ended up doing, I guess, a couple events or classes together. But the majority of it was we didn't work directly together on a lot of things, but were always in communication about what we're up to respectively and ended up at a lot of events together, but just doing kind of separate things within that particular event."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got to your school after language training. And how long was it before you felt like you were accepted in being a part of the program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, the program being?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The ongoing activities of the school."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.738809887255506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, the program being?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The ongoing activities of the school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, being accepted kind of at the school as a?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like. Uh. I really feel for the most part, just right away. They had on my first day there. I had mentioned a little earlier about how my host grandmother Sophia greeted me that morning on the steps. I had time to get a shower and shave. And from there, we went to the school and I thought I was just going to kind of be a meeting with the principal and maybe a tour of the school. And at this point, I'm exhausted from the train ride. I didn't, I ended up sleeping eventually great on trains, but that first train I didn't sleep anything, you know, didn't sleep a wink. But we go to the school and the students have prepared this huge welcome concert and celebration that I've, you know, the U.S., the U.S. guy is here. And so they had PowerPoint presentations about their school and they recited poems and had dances and songs and there were multiple teachers and students in attendance. And it was just, it was overwhelming.\n\nThey asked me to get up and say a few words in Ukrainian. And so I felt, again, just immediately welcome for the most part. There were a couple of teachers who, you know, it was less than 5%, but they didn't just jump on that welcome wagon right away. And it took, um, it was a year and a half with some of them before I finally kind of had that connection and then those walls were broke down. And there was one particular I remember, Sirhi, who was more standoffish for the longest time, but then we ended up playing a volleyball game together. And that was the end of that, end of that barrier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get feedback on what you were doing in your assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.243909310364202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I think the director was very good at that, about, you know, of being more open with what's, you know, what's working, what's not working. I had a few, after some time, a couple teachers that I really consider, who are also have ended up lifelong friends. Just emailed one of them a couple of weeks ago. That I could really trust and about getting some honest feedback I think. Um. And Ukrainian culture, I think when you're having surface conversations there can be the tendency to just say everything's good, everything's great. When really maybe I could have benefited from some more feedback."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of standards did you use to judge the effectiveness of what you were engaged in as a volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Uh, well, we had a reporting tool that we had to kind of fill out every six months on and report numbers on how many Ukrainians were coming to things. So I took note of that and where the numbers are. And then I guess just a little more informally, I really just observed students and picked up on their physical and verbal cues on what was clicking for them with my work and what was engaging them, and then trying to do more of of what those things were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did students ever complain or give you compliments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, again, I think I got a lot of compliments just because I was the U.S. volunteer, I was different. And so everything I did was cool, quote unquote. But definitely, definitely got some complaints when I'd come in to sub for an English class, for example, if the teacher couldn't make it. They're used to maybe more interactive activities with me and it ended up being I had to follow the lesson plan and couldn't do that. So there'd be complaints where being not having my formal class. For most students, I probably ended up more of a big brother or like a friend almost. So when it came time to teach and I had to be stricter, that was, oh Tom, come on, like be fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any opportunities to spend time with students outside of the class or club or activities that you'd organized?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.271010344849113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Uh, well, we had a reporting tool that we had to kind of fill out every six months on and report numbers on how many Ukrainians were coming to things. So I took note of that and where the numbers are. And then I guess just a little more informally, I really just observed students and picked up on their physical and verbal cues on what was clicking for them with my work and what was engaging them, and then trying to do more of of what those things were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did students ever complain or give you compliments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, again, I think I got a lot of compliments just because I was the U.S. volunteer, I was different. And so everything I did was cool, quote unquote. But definitely, definitely got some complaints when I'd come in to sub for an English class, for example, if the teacher couldn't make it. They're used to maybe more interactive activities with me and it ended up being I had to follow the lesson plan and couldn't do that. So there'd be complaints where being not having my formal class. For most students, I probably ended up more of a big brother or like a friend almost. So when it came time to teach and I had to be stricter, that was, oh Tom, come on, like be fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any opportunities to spend time with students outside of the class or club or activities that you'd organized?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so I did spend a lot of time I think with them, not necessarily in the school. Between they would invite me to like end of the year celebrations and we'd just be sitting and eating dinner together. I'd see them and it's a small town, again, so I'd see them in town and we'd chat, and how's life? And as well as I'd go and play soccer with them a bunch, even though I remain awful at soccer. But it was still just something that we could all do and have fun together with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you feel like you got to know a good number of students when they got to know you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.523344827610124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, again, I think I got a lot of compliments just because I was the U.S. volunteer, I was different. And so everything I did was cool, quote unquote. But definitely, definitely got some complaints when I'd come in to sub for an English class, for example, if the teacher couldn't make it. They're used to maybe more interactive activities with me and it ended up being I had to follow the lesson plan and couldn't do that. So there'd be complaints where being not having my formal class. For most students, I probably ended up more of a big brother or like a friend almost. So when it came time to teach and I had to be stricter, that was, oh Tom, come on, like be fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any opportunities to spend time with students outside of the class or club or activities that you'd organized?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so I did spend a lot of time I think with them, not necessarily in the school. Between they would invite me to like end of the year celebrations and we'd just be sitting and eating dinner together. I'd see them and it's a small town, again, so I'd see them in town and we'd chat, and how's life? And as well as I'd go and play soccer with them a bunch, even though I remain awful at soccer. But it was still just something that we could all do and have fun together with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you feel like you got to know a good number of students when they got to know you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I feel like one of the biggest things that Ukrainians gave me, and I hope I gave them in return, was relationships. And so I feel very happy with what I was able to do there and remain in touch with a lot of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have students come to your home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.025938697344582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so I did spend a lot of time I think with them, not necessarily in the school. Between they would invite me to like end of the year celebrations and we'd just be sitting and eating dinner together. I'd see them and it's a small town, again, so I'd see them in town and we'd chat, and how's life? And as well as I'd go and play soccer with them a bunch, even though I remain awful at soccer. But it was still just something that we could all do and have fun together with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you feel like you got to know a good number of students when they got to know you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I feel like one of the biggest things that Ukrainians gave me, and I hope I gave them in return, was relationships. And so I feel very happy with what I was able to do there and remain in touch with a lot of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have students come to your home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That was recommended by Peace Corps not to do. And I was able to follow that guide."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably good advice. Develop friendships with other people in town besides folks at school, the faculty?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.69548744149398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I feel like one of the biggest things that Ukrainians gave me, and I hope I gave them in return, was relationships. And so I feel very happy with what I was able to do there and remain in touch with a lot of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have students come to your home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That was recommended by Peace Corps not to do. And I was able to follow that guide."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably good advice. Develop friendships with other people in town besides folks at school, the faculty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. So I met some people my age through basketball or I had a local kind of restaurant that a lot of people would go to on the weekends and met people there. And so ended up definitely with some good friends my age, older, younger as well, that weren't necessarily connected to the school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had the ability to write emails, to stay in touch with friends and family back in the States?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.439430490548865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That was recommended by Peace Corps not to do. And I was able to follow that guide."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably good advice. Develop friendships with other people in town besides folks at school, the faculty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. So I met some people my age through basketball or I had a local kind of restaurant that a lot of people would go to on the weekends and met people there. And so ended up definitely with some good friends my age, older, younger as well, that weren't necessarily connected to the school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had the ability to write emails, to stay in touch with friends and family back in the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. And it was, I didn't have internet at the school. So if I had downtime during the day, I would write emails in a Word document. And then back at home in the evening, I could just send them off and be on the internet less time that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take a lot of pictures or send photos back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 29.37714498949874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. So I met some people my age through basketball or I had a local kind of restaurant that a lot of people would go to on the weekends and met people there. And so ended up definitely with some good friends my age, older, younger as well, that weren't necessarily connected to the school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had the ability to write emails, to stay in touch with friends and family back in the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. And it was, I didn't have internet at the school. So if I had downtime during the day, I would write emails in a Word document. And then back at home in the evening, I could just send them off and be on the internet less time that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take a lot of pictures or send photos back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I took lots and lots of pictures and posted them on, uh, Facebook was my primary way of sharing them. And was able to send links to those albums to people who weren't, who were not on Facebook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The first Christmas that you were away from home, sometimes that's a little hard for people. Do you remember your first Christmas in Ukraine?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.30793887722082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. And it was, I didn't have internet at the school. So if I had downtime during the day, I would write emails in a Word document. And then back at home in the evening, I could just send them off and be on the internet less time that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take a lot of pictures or send photos back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I took lots and lots of pictures and posted them on, uh, Facebook was my primary way of sharing them. And was able to send links to those albums to people who weren't, who were not on Facebook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The first Christmas that you were away from home, sometimes that's a little hard for people. Do you remember your first Christmas in Ukraine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So actually my first Christmas in Ukraine, I did, or in 2010, I came back to the States for a week to be in the States for that. And then Ukrainians celebrate, I guess it's just Orthodox Christmas, so they celebrate January 7th. And but really, to turn it into the 6th, 7th, 8th, and sometimes 9th. So it's this massive three or four day celebration and I greatly enjoyed that. And then 2011, I spent with friends. In 2012, I was back in the States. So I think for me almost it was Thanksgiving of that first year of 2010 that I really was a moment where I missed being with family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was your diet?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.453265419134244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I took lots and lots of pictures and posted them on, uh, Facebook was my primary way of sharing them. And was able to send links to those albums to people who weren't, who were not on Facebook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The first Christmas that you were away from home, sometimes that's a little hard for people. Do you remember your first Christmas in Ukraine?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So actually my first Christmas in Ukraine, I did, or in 2010, I came back to the States for a week to be in the States for that. And then Ukrainians celebrate, I guess it's just Orthodox Christmas, so they celebrate January 7th. And but really, to turn it into the 6th, 7th, 8th, and sometimes 9th. So it's this massive three or four day celebration and I greatly enjoyed that. And then 2011, I spent with friends. In 2012, I was back in the States. So I think for me almost it was Thanksgiving of that first year of 2010 that I really was a moment where I missed being with family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was your diet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is full an option of diet? No, I was constantly full in Ukraine. As I mentioned, the hospitality. You will not be cold and you will not be hungry in Ukraine. And my host grandmother Sophia was a phenomenal cook. She cooked all the traditional Ukrainian dishes. Meat and potatoes almost every meal, but in different ways. And bread was with everything. Hot soups and fresh fruits and vegetables during the summer. I just really, the food was simple but just delicious. And I still eat most things with bread to this day because of that experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you feel any sense, because you were there in town by yourself, the only American, did you feel isolated or out of touch or any kind of culture shock related issues?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.460821505104004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is full an option of diet? No, I was constantly full in Ukraine. As I mentioned, the hospitality. You will not be cold and you will not be hungry in Ukraine. And my host grandmother Sophia was a phenomenal cook. She cooked all the traditional Ukrainian dishes. Meat and potatoes almost every meal, but in different ways. And bread was with everything. Hot soups and fresh fruits and vegetables during the summer. I just really, the food was simple but just delicious. And I still eat most things with bread to this day because of that experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you feel any sense, because you were there in town by yourself, the only American, did you feel isolated or out of touch or any kind of culture shock related issues?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were definitely times where I just felt like I, uh, there were days where like I'm an outsider, like again, what am I? Who am I? Like, what am I doing here? And there were definitely days like that. And but and at that point, I could usually just call another Peace Corps volunteer, you know, just speaking English for a little while. And that was, I was back to my A-game. And but the majority of the time, I didn't feel that because I just felt this connection to Rudky and the people again after a very short time there and felt at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your free time, what kinds of things did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Um, actually I didn't. Looking back at it, I didn't. I kept myself really busy between the school and just intentionally trying to be with people and listen and talk. I think when there was downtime, I enjoyed sitting out with Sophia in her garden, especially during the summer in the evenings, and just listening again to her stories or just enjoying kind of the quiet of the small town. Peace Corps was probably the first time I read for pleasure in years. So that was wonderful. And got to watch, and usually my nightly tradition was to watch an episode or two of Seinfeld or The Office on DVD to just kind of turn the mind off and wind down for a night's rest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you travel any?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.512023894560002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were definitely times where I just felt like I, uh, there were days where like I'm an outsider, like again, what am I? Who am I? Like, what am I doing here? And there were definitely days like that. And but and at that point, I could usually just call another Peace Corps volunteer, you know, just speaking English for a little while. And that was, I was back to my A-game. And but the majority of the time, I didn't feel that because I just felt this connection to Rudky and the people again after a very short time there and felt at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your free time, what kinds of things did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Um, actually I didn't. Looking back at it, I didn't. I kept myself really busy between the school and just intentionally trying to be with people and listen and talk. I think when there was downtime, I enjoyed sitting out with Sophia in her garden, especially during the summer in the evenings, and just listening again to her stories or just enjoying kind of the quiet of the small town. Peace Corps was probably the first time I read for pleasure in years. So that was wonderful. And got to watch, and usually my nightly tradition was to watch an episode or two of Seinfeld or The Office on DVD to just kind of turn the mind off and wind down for a night's rest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you travel any?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was very fortunate to be able to travel a lot within Ukraine and see many cities within Ukraine and parts of the country, as well as a good chunk of Europe through several trips."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what types of transportation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.5689154384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Um, actually I didn't. Looking back at it, I didn't. I kept myself really busy between the school and just intentionally trying to be with people and listen and talk. I think when there was downtime, I enjoyed sitting out with Sophia in her garden, especially during the summer in the evenings, and just listening again to her stories or just enjoying kind of the quiet of the small town. Peace Corps was probably the first time I read for pleasure in years. So that was wonderful. And got to watch, and usually my nightly tradition was to watch an episode or two of Seinfeld or The Office on DVD to just kind of turn the mind off and wind down for a night's rest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you travel any?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was very fortunate to be able to travel a lot within Ukraine and see many cities within Ukraine and parts of the country, as well as a good chunk of Europe through several trips."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what types of transportation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think a couple of the trips, um. I know I went on a trip with my brother and I think I flew to Germany and met him there and we went around to several countries and, uh. And so most of these, most of these trips I ended up flying. A couple of them were by, a one was at least by train. We took a train down to Romania one day, took a bus over to Poland. So those border countries, we took trains and busses. But to get a little farther into Europe we're on the plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the local music and art scene in town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.743239376000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was very fortunate to be able to travel a lot within Ukraine and see many cities within Ukraine and parts of the country, as well as a good chunk of Europe through several trips."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what types of transportation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think a couple of the trips, um. I know I went on a trip with my brother and I think I flew to Germany and met him there and we went around to several countries and, uh. And so most of these, most of these trips I ended up flying. A couple of them were by, a one was at least by train. We took a train down to Romania one day, took a bus over to Poland. So those border countries, we took trains and busses. But to get a little farther into Europe we're on the plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the local music and art scene in town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say with art, I don't have a lot of memories of that. There were, there was a small museum again in Rudky and some museums in the area that carried some art and historical information, I guess to say. And one of the teachers at the school was an artist and had some paintings, and I meant to get a painting of his and just now realizing I didn't. So hopefully one day. And then music, there were lots of concerts and dance performances of local students and local groups and singing events of choruses singing, as well as kind of just like this club European techno dance music that was very popular in clubs that grew on me throughout my time there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in your second year, were there any differences between the first and second year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.936932640000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think a couple of the trips, um. I know I went on a trip with my brother and I think I flew to Germany and met him there and we went around to several countries and, uh. And so most of these, most of these trips I ended up flying. A couple of them were by, a one was at least by train. We took a train down to Romania one day, took a bus over to Poland. So those border countries, we took trains and busses. But to get a little farther into Europe we're on the plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the local music and art scene in town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say with art, I don't have a lot of memories of that. There were, there was a small museum again in Rudky and some museums in the area that carried some art and historical information, I guess to say. And one of the teachers at the school was an artist and had some paintings, and I meant to get a painting of his and just now realizing I didn't. So hopefully one day. And then music, there were lots of concerts and dance performances of local students and local groups and singing events of choruses singing, as well as kind of just like this club European techno dance music that was very popular in clubs that grew on me throughout my time there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in your second year, were there any differences between the first and second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I would say, I mean, I was more confident. My language was better. I knew more people. People, more people knew me. I had gotten a sense of what worked and what wasn't working in terms of my work with the youth. And I just felt, you know, it's like the first year I was figuring things out, trying to get adjusted and being stressed. And the second year is feeling confident and doing, putting, seeing some things come together in really great ways. And oh, like oh my gosh, I'm going home soon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that regard, did you have any goals that you wanted to achieve before leaving?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.193744000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I would say, I mean, I was more confident. My language was better. I knew more people. People, more people knew me. I had gotten a sense of what worked and what wasn't working in terms of my work with the youth. And I just felt, you know, it's like the first year I was figuring things out, trying to get adjusted and being stressed. And the second year is feeling confident and doing, putting, seeing some things come together in really great ways. And oh, like oh my gosh, I'm going home soon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that regard, did you have any goals that you wanted to achieve before leaving?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. I had kind of plans and ideas of projects and when I wanted to generally, you know, ideally get them done and who I wanted to involve with it and who to hand more off of it to and to get them in more of leadership roles. And so just kind of and realizing that my time was limited and thinking how much time I had left, I would just be intentional about having conversations with people and expressing my ideas and hearing theirs. And this is how much time I have left. What do you want me to do? Type things, especially with my director. School director, I should say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you came back to the U.S. and you were in the States for what period? And then you got into Peace Corps Response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right, so I actually my original for, just backtracking real quick to the traditional service, my original end date was June 2012. And I ended up extending that for six months and came home in December. And so I went home in December 2012, having completed my traditional service, was home mostly in North Carolina from the end of December, and was scheduled to go back with Peace Corps Response in February. But due to some visa issues that ended up being pushed to April. Mid April 2013, I returned to Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To the same, to Rudky again?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00008:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.10416, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. I had kind of plans and ideas of projects and when I wanted to generally, you know, ideally get them done and who I wanted to involve with it and who to hand more off of it to and to get them in more of leadership roles. And so just kind of and realizing that my time was limited and thinking how much time I had left, I would just be intentional about having conversations with people and expressing my ideas and hearing theirs. And this is how much time I have left. What do you want me to do? Type things, especially with my director. School director, I should say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you came back to the U.S. and you were in the States for what period? And then you got into Peace Corps Response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right, so I actually my original for, just backtracking real quick to the traditional service, my original end date was June 2012. And I ended up extending that for six months and came home in December. And so I went home in December 2012, having completed my traditional service, was home mostly in North Carolina from the end of December, and was scheduled to go back with Peace Corps Response in February. But due to some visa issues that ended up being pushed to April. Mid April 2013, I returned to Ukraine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To the same, to Rudky again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, a good question. That was actually to Kyiv, the capital, and that was where my work was. I was stationed in Kyiv for the last ten months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Was it the same kind of work or different?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00385:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 168.022, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll talk about the flights and some of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like I'm telling you more than you ever wanted to know about a lot of things. Like this thing they had about the cross-range and performance, I never could understand what the hell they were trying to accomplish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's something I've been looking into a lot, to try to figure out where the cross-range came from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really? Well, can you figure it out?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The general idea is, like you said—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00385:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 185.57999999999998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like I'm telling you more than you ever wanted to know about a lot of things. Like this thing they had about the cross-range and performance, I never could understand what the hell they were trying to accomplish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's something I've been looking into a lot, to try to figure out where the cross-range came from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really? Well, can you figure it out?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The general idea is, like you said—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Get back to Vandenberg."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. To get back to Vandenberg, because that's how much the Earth rotates after one thing. But, of course, underlying that is the types of missions they need to do that in a singular orbit."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00385:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 199, "return_to_go": 206.2, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really? Well, can you figure it out?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The general idea is, like you said—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Get back to Vandenberg."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. To get back to Vandenberg, because that's how much the Earth rotates after one thing. But, of course, underlying that is the types of missions they need to do that in a singular orbit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, this goes back to the Shuttle design, why we end up with a delta-wing orbiter versus a straight wing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00025:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 33.896950000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you'll have to make a trip to the Cape some time and see if you can do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw one on the pad for one of the launches."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If nothing else, when they bring one through Ellington some time, at least go out and watch, to see it sitting on top of the carrier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's huge. Bigger than a DC-9, and that's a pretty good-sized airplane. But the delta wing makes it look even bigger. Definitely proud of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And certainly a lot of the people who we've talked to are very proud of it and get a good sense of the challenges that were involved in creating this thing, and once you hear all that, you realize what an achievement that this Shuttle really is."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00211:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 24, "return_to_go": 24.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The local area? I don’t really know how to answer the question. I don’t think the local area would have existed in the time frame that it did if we hadn’t been put here, because it was a source of employment, and then all the people that it employed needed services, and it’s there. But if you look at The Woodlands [Texas], it exists, and there’s no NASA up there. I think this area would have developed, also; probably not at that same time frame, but it would have developed. I don’t know of any unique significance NASA has had to this area, except as an employment base. I really don’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just had one other question for you, and I’m not sure if you had any involvement or not. There was an issue that was raised in the 1970s about putting wine on board Skylab. Some individuals in the Crew Systems Division were working on that. Were you involved in that discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Putting what on board Skylab?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. No, I have no idea. The food, after the medical people left the Life Systems Division and moved over to the Science Directorate, they carried the food with them. I don’t really have any knowledge about the food at all. I do know that the Soviets have always had alcoholic beverages on their flights, and that was sort of a big deal back during the Apollo-Soyuz as to whether they would toast each other when they joined up. I guess the rumor was that it wasn’t on camera, but they did. I don’t know if that’s false or not. I have no knowledge, but that was the rumor, anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the SAFER and the MMU."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 135.20218878918678, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sir, I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Well, I'd like to start off and just say that because of the system here I might have to repeat myself, but it seems clear so far. Let's start off with a couple basic questions here. What were your duties as chief of Aircraft Operations Division?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had, I guess, the technical responsibility for the scheduling, operations, and the maintenance contract, for at the time we only had about, under the Apollo Program, about thirty airplanes, and I was also the technical manager of the support contract that did all the maintenance and had a little staff of only about twenty pilots and about a like number of engineers and quality assurance personnel, and we just supported all the programs that were going on at the time at JSC [Johnson Space Center]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the problems that arose during your tenure as the director?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wasn't a director. I was a division chief."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pardon me, sir."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 113.39444695498986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very realistic. We mask out the windows. We have an orbiter crew station in the left side of the cockpit that flies the exact trajectory, and after several years' training, we see what the airplane does. We have a little software development capability. I'm not sure what contractor's doing it now. It was Ford, Philco, and Loral when I was there, and they keep matching the airplane. So it does exactly what the [orbiter] does, so the astronauts all consider it the best trainer for the Shuttle landing task. And we've got a crew station up [front]—that was another big mod. I didn't even mention that, but that was mostly mechanical. They had to put, you know, an orbiter crew station, all the controls and displays on the left side and then move the captain's station on the right side of the airplane. The normal captain sits on the left, so we had to move a lot of things to the right side of the—Grumman did a good job on that.\\n\\n Where are you located physically at JSC?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm in Building 12 right now, sir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some time—probably thirty minutes, go up and see John Young. I think he's still working up there at the director's staff level. He can tell you all about the STA. He's very familiar with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that reference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He spent a lot of time, and he helped us technically. As you know, he was involved in the Shuttle Program from start to finish, from start to now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the exact purpose of the T-38 chase aircraft? What happened with that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 38, "return_to_go": 121.5493855055443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some time—probably thirty minutes, go up and see John Young. I think he's still working up there at the director's staff level. He can tell you all about the STA. He's very familiar with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that reference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He spent a lot of time, and he helped us technically. As you know, he was involved in the Shuttle Program from start to finish, from start to now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the exact purpose of the T-38 chase aircraft? What happened with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initial flights, everybody was quite worried about how the astronauts could handle the [landing] task, you know, their height and stuff like that. So on the original ALT flights, we chased the orbiter with [Karol J.] Bobko, Gordon [Charles G.] Fullerton, and some of the other guys, and they'd call out the altitude, basically, at the very end and look over the vehicle. Then, when we actually started flying, we chased a few of the initial STS [Space Transportation System] flights because everybody was worried about the tiles falling off, structural problems. So we had chase. Actually, in the Edwards operation on the approach and landing test, the pilots are so busy with their tasks and instrument tasks, you really hate to say this because nobody's looking out the window. You really need somebody else to just be sure there's no other traffic in the area. And we had a big chase operation all during ALT."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. I'm interested, on the experiences with the shuttle carrier aircraft, if you could tell me—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 52.4506918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were managing the operation and did the airplane mods, the P-3, the C-130. We started with a Convair-240 and a Bell-206 helicopter and two WB-57s. Again, we did the insulation of the equipment, which primarily came from people over in the Engineering Directorate, operated the airplanes, collected the data, and then delivered the data back to them. We didn't really get too involved in the science part of it. We just operated the airplanes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm interested in your transition and your shift from your job that we've been talking about to the assistant director of flight crew operations. Can you tell me a little bit about that, please?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean me personally?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, sir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was just actively flying until about 1990. By that time I had reached an advanced age as far as the medical people, I guess, went to sixty-five, and they started, I guess, leaning on me to quit flying. So they made life difficult enough putting me on dual flying status and finally said, \"You ought not to be flying. Why don't you get in management?\" So I just phased out, and I retired in '92. Basically I quit flying in 1990."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your duties as assistant director for flight crew operations?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.82, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I entered the Navy when I was seventeen years old, in the middle of World War II, went through the V-12 Program, then the V-5 Program. Those were the aviation cadet programs. I went through Navy flight training, and I really didn't finish the Navy flight training until the end of 1945, and by that time the war was over. So I was a reserve aviator had had a choice of getting out or signing up for a two-year tour, and after all the struggle of getting through the program, I signed up and went onto a torpedo attack squadron for two years, VT-20. So I did five years active duty with the Navy, two years on an aircraft carrier, the USS Philippine Sea.\\n\\n When I got…out, I went back to school and finished school at the University of North Carolina where I'd started in '42 and graduated in '49. I actually had applied for work at Langley, but at that time there weren't any openings. I was in graduate school, and there was kind of a big shuffle of NACA pilots. Joe Walker went out to Edwards to replace Scott [A.] Crossfield, who went to Rockwell and the X-15 Program. I went up to work at Lewis in 1951 early, and I worked there for nine years, and I worked at Langley Research Center for three years and then got recruited in spring of 1962 by Warren North and Walt [Walter C.] Williams, set up the JSC Aircraft Operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. Could you, for biographical purposes, I need to get your parents' full names."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad's name was Samuel J. Algranti. He worked for the American Tobacco Company in Durham, North Carolina. My mother's name was Beatrice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her maiden name was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carol."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. And I need to get your wife's name and the date you were married, please."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 9.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad's name was Samuel J. Algranti. He worked for the American Tobacco Company in Durham, North Carolina. My mother's name was Beatrice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her maiden name was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carol."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. And I need to get your wife's name and the date you were married, please."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Annabelle. We were married in November 1952. She was an employee of NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] at Lewis Lab, where I was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. And finally, your children's names, please."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00018:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carol."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. And I need to get your wife's name and the date you were married, please."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Annabelle. We were married in November 1952. She was an employee of NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] at Lewis Lab, where I was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. And finally, your children's names, please."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a stepson named Donald Cope. My son is Samuel Algranti. He still lives in Houston. He works for a Norwegian oil company [Statoil], lives in Clear Lake City. My daughter is a physician. Her name is Deborah Simmons. She lives in LaGrange, Georgia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much. Mr. Algranti, I've really enjoyed this interview, and it's been a fascinating time, and I appreciate your time. Thank you very much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 56.564407288874314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We must have, but I don’t remember it now. It was really memorable talking to Dr. Kraft. I don’t know whether we would have told John first and then told Dr. Kraft. The right way chain of command-wise would be to have gone to John Young first and then George Abbey and then Dr. Kraft. I don’t remember if that’s what we did. If we didn’t, we should have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you tell the whole Astronaut Office at the Monday morning meeting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. She wanted me to announce it. We went to the Monday morning meeting when we were going to reveal it, and when John Young was asking, “Any comments from the floor?” or something like that, I raised my hand and I stood up. The way I announced it was I said, “I’m here to announce that our total number of astronauts has increased to 80 and a half because Rhea is pregnant,” was how we announced it to everybody. There was a big round of applause. That was the clever way that I told everybody. It was at one of our Monday morning meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised by the media interest that Rhea received? You didn’t seem to get much but she received quite a bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, she was the first American mom astronaut. I guess Shannon [W.] Lucid had kids, so she was already a mom before she became an astronaut. Then Rhea was the first American woman astronaut to become pregnant. Yes, that wouldn’t surprise me at all. I don’t remember that much about it. But just because she is who she is, yes, I’m not surprised that it generated a bunch of interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any challenge that you saw from your perspective of her being pregnant and being an astronaut? You mentioned she couldn’t fly anymore. But are there other things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 54.47404291881914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had about 30, somewhere around there, 31, 32, 30, something like that. I think they’re down to 20 now. They didn’t need quite as many of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s not as many people in the Office anymore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true. When I was Chief Astronaut I remember my number was 113. There were 113 astronauts then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get your choice of flying time at least, being out there at Ellington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, because everything went by a priority system. You had priority one through eight. Eight was everything else. Pri one was the next crew. Pri two was mission support for the next mission, so the chase pilots if there were chase pilots. I guess all the guys working down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] on the vehicle processing would be priority two. When I was a chase plane pilot, we were priority two. Everything in support of the next mission would be pri two.\\n\\n If I just wanted to do a cross-country I was in the same boat. Although I bet they took care of me a little bit, because I was the Deputy Chief out there. They probably had a tendency to try to slip you an airplane when they could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m curious if you were at this meeting or not. Were you in attendance when George Abbey announced he was going to be flying STS-7, 8, and 9? If so, what do you remember about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 62.56054681335696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, because everything went by a priority system. You had priority one through eight. Eight was everything else. Pri one was the next crew. Pri two was mission support for the next mission, so the chase pilots if there were chase pilots. I guess all the guys working down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] on the vehicle processing would be priority two. When I was a chase plane pilot, we were priority two. Everything in support of the next mission would be pri two.\\n\\n If I just wanted to do a cross-country I was in the same boat. Although I bet they took care of me a little bit, because I was the Deputy Chief out there. They probably had a tendency to try to slip you an airplane when they could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m curious if you were at this meeting or not. Were you in attendance when George Abbey announced he was going to be flying STS-7, 8, and 9? If so, what do you remember about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh golly, yes. I remember that vividly. We knew that it was coming because it was about time for those crews to be named. Yes, I remember George started off. I remember what he said. He said, “Well, we hoped when we first picked you guys that by three years into it,” or however it was he said it, “we’d be about ready to start assigning some of you guys to the first missions.” I had predicted Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had predicted. I said, “Rick Hauck is going to be the PLT [Pilot] on the very first flight. He’s going to be the first one out of our class to fly.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why’d you think that? I’m just curious."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 51.54218787850751, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a funny story there too. That was when I got told. I don’t remember if I was over there anyway. This was while I was out at AOD. Either that or George said, “Hey, why don’t you come over and talk to me?” It was one of the farthest things away from my mind, because I didn’t even realize it was time to be assigning another crew. We had assigned 7, 8, and 9. Then at some point after that we assigned 10, which was a DoD [Department of Defense] mission. TK [Thomas K.] Mattingly with Loren [J.] Shriver as pilot, Ellison [S.] Onizuka, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I think Ellison flew with Loren."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it Jim [James F.] Buchli? Shouldn’t have been Jim Buchli. STS-10 got assigned. I showed up over at George’s and came in and sat down at his little conference table. It was George, and Vance Brand was sitting in there. Didn’t even occur to me. Nothing even occurred to me at all.\\n\\n George said, “Well, okay.” I think at that point I’d been out at AOD for a year and a half. George said, “Okay, you’ve been out at AOD for a year and a half now. Have you given any thought to what you might like to do next?” I said, “Oh gee, well, no, sir. No, I hadn’t really thought about it. I think everybody would like to be a CapCom, because that’s just really a neat job and really a good job. So I’d like to be a CapCom.”\\n\\n Then he said, “Well, have you got any interest in any of the upcoming missions?” Can you imagine what I said next?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’d you say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Huh?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought you were going to say, “No.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 34, "return_to_go": 63.469269743190836, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course. Yes, I don’t remember if I asked George or if he just said, “Yes, of course you can tell Rhea.” I probably called Mom and Dad that night. I suspect I called Mom and Dad that night to tell them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because why not? That’s not a public announcement."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, but would have told them, “Hey, don’t blab it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t go telling the LA Times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you would talk about that crew and the crew relationship, that was a diverse crew. Had you worked with any of those folks before?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 42.309510353895504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going to take a chance that it was unclassified. There was a problem on STS—which one took up the first TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was [STS]-6."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Six, okay. There was a problem with the IUS [Inertial Upper Stage]. That’s what delayed STS-10 because they were using the IUS. They wound up slipping, so 41B, STS-11 wound up being the tenth launch. That’s why we slipped into the tenth place.\\n\\n Now I’ll probably go to jail because that was probably still secret. No, actually I don’t think it is. I don’t think it is, because in the case of [STS]-27, for example, I am allowed to say that we went to 57 degrees. We carried a major new DoD intelligence satellite, deployed it with the robot arm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t test duct tape as Rhea says in her book? I think that’s what she said. You went to space to test duct tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To test duct tape. Yes, because the only photos that we could really show are us in the cabin, and there’s a photo of me sitting in the commander’s seat. Behind my seat stuck to the wall is a whole roll of duct tape. So frequently I would show that slide when I was talking and say, “Well, I really can’t tell you anything about the mission except that we were there to test duct tape.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought that was amusing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 77.16444217782941, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They are in the public domain. That’s the other thing. You don’t need permission to use them. But I suppose—well, lawyers will do anything. If you tell them, “I want to sue this nice gal,” they’ll do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What we’ll do at the end when we get your final copy, we’ll put on the Web, we’ll put those photos, and we’ll differentiate. We’ll show a picture of Ron’s and show a picture of yours. I think that would be a good idea. I think it would be interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve seen some of Ron’s pictures in other magazines where they’re talking about photography. The description on this one says, “The horizon being at an angle makes for a really interesting photograph.” I’m thinking, “This is totally opposite of what we got trained.” But it did. I think it made an interesting picture as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fascinating. I had heard that he had shot that photo, but then I had read in other sources that you shot the photo. So it reminded me of the Apollo 8 earthrise image. I thought well, who really shot that photo, you know how everyone takes credit for it. That’s great, so we can differentiate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we can, because the camera that I was using had the 80-millimeter lens and the one Ron used had the 250. The ones Ron shot were at a farther distance away, but then the telephoto brings it up closer. The big way was that every single one that I shot I made the horizon level, so that’s how I could tell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I always like to ask people, especially their first mission, to walk us through your memories of that day: getting up at crew quarters, getting ready, the breakfast, all the way through launch and getting up into space that first time. What are your recollections of it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 46.10555142278345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, excellent. Yes, you wanted to be real nice to him because he was a black belt in karate as well. He could kill you with his bare hands. You always wanted to be very nice to him, which was easy, he was very nice as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nowadays I’m thinking how the crews on orbit for ISS—they can do Skype, they can e-mail with people, stay in touch with family. How’d you stay in touch with Rhea and Paul and Julie? Did you have a chance when you were on orbit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t. No, we didn’t. On 41B, Jennifer, my recollection is there was no contact at all. At some point down the line we had the laptops on board, and we could send a message down to the ground and we could get messages back. I remember on Rhea’s flights Trudy Davis was our coordinator for that stuff, and she’d get ahold of us and say, “Hey, do you have something you’d like to send up to Rhea? Do you or the kids have something you’d like to?” So you’d write up something. Then she’d get it input. It would all go up in a packet, and same deal, we could send a packet of messages down as well.\\n\\n On 41B we didn’t have that in place. It might have been that they could put one or two things on the teleprinter like, “We watched the launch, and you look great.” Maybe something would come up on the teleprinter. Later on we did have that thing where you could get on the laptop and type up a message to your family and they could send stuff back up to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. As you know I’m sure, that’s one of the things that they found on these long duration flights that boy, people need to be able to be in contact with their families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of getting to Florida and seeing Rhea and Julie? From the book I understand Paul was at home in Houston when you landed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 57.588699931892904, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had one other question but it’s just a little bit after noon. I don’t know if you have lunch plans with anybody. So I don’t want to hold you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn’t really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, I wasn’t sure, I always hate to keep people here and somebody says, “Oh, I really needed to go about a half an hour ago.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, heavens, no. No, in fact we can keep going if you want to keep going."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can keep going for a little bit. Wanted to ask you about any interesting PRs. You mentioned going to Jackson, Mississippi. Any other place? Hometowns, things like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 29, "return_to_go": 57.32077770210323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn’t really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, I wasn’t sure, I always hate to keep people here and somebody says, “Oh, I really needed to go about a half an hour ago.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, heavens, no. No, in fact we can keep going if you want to keep going."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can keep going for a little bit. Wanted to ask you about any interesting PRs. You mentioned going to Jackson, Mississippi. Any other place? Hometowns, things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh golly. There was a really fascinating PR—I don’t know if Rhea talked about it—that happened before the mission. Oh, Vance Brand was so mad at me. This was early in our training cycle. We were launching in February. I think we probably got assigned maybe the end of February of ’83, and we were tracking down to February of ’84. Rhea had a PR that she was doing in Australia. That was going to be in April of ’83. She was over there. Now we’ve started training on 41B.\\n\\n Rhea got a call I think maybe before she went over there. It was the White House. Did she tell you about this at all?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I remember seeing it in her blog, of all places."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 46.7269178175807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it sure was. Yes, it sure was. Of course then I got back and Vance got over it. He didn’t hold it against me. He actually became convinced that I had done my darnedest to try to get out of it, so all’s well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably your hometown PR paled in comparison to that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s true. After the mission there were some hometown things. My folks were living in Lakewood, California, when I went into the Navy. Went back to Lakewood, and of course they had a big thing there, the mayor and the city council. That was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to stop and have some lunch? Or do you want to keep going for a little bit? What’s your preference?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 55.34187384886506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to stop and have some lunch? Or do you want to keep going for a little bit? What’s your preference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you need to go break for lunch right now? We could go till maybe 12:30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then break. Because we’re going to go what, 2:00 to 4:00 again?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two to 4:00, yes. I’m hoping they turn up the heat. I don’t know. Are you cold?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 61.4909709431834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you need to go break for lunch right now? We could go till maybe 12:30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then break. Because we’re going to go what, 2:00 to 4:00 again?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two to 4:00, yes. I’m hoping they turn up the heat. I don’t know. Are you cold?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a little bit cool, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a little nippy in here. I’m hoping I can adjust the heat."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 74.68021104096715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a little bit cool, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a little nippy in here. I’m hoping I can adjust the heat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know what we had when I worked in SAIL? Oh, let’s see. What was his name? The astronauts, we had a couple desks in one of the offices with Dave. One of the guys that worked in SAIL. You couldn’t adjust your thermostats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, you couldn’t adjust them, you couldn’t change them. He invented something that we called the Dave whatever his last name was, the Dave something or other thermostat fooler. It was basically a washcloth that you dipped in water. You’d wrap it around the thermostat, and the evaporation would cause the temperature to be a little bit lower at that thermostat where the thermostat was sensing it, so it would turn up the heat in the rest of the room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s a good idea."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 81.86690115663016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know what we had when I worked in SAIL? Oh, let’s see. What was his name? The astronauts, we had a couple desks in one of the offices with Dave. One of the guys that worked in SAIL. You couldn’t adjust your thermostats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, you couldn’t adjust them, you couldn’t change them. He invented something that we called the Dave whatever his last name was, the Dave something or other thermostat fooler. It was basically a washcloth that you dipped in water. You’d wrap it around the thermostat, and the evaporation would cause the temperature to be a little bit lower at that thermostat where the thermostat was sensing it, so it would turn up the heat in the rest of the room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s a good idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So you could have a Hoot Gibson thermostat fooler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I like that. Because in some offices they do that, they actually lock the thermostat, so you don’t adjust them. This one I think, Rebecca’s, you can adjust. I know in my office I’ve adjusted it. We’re not technically supposed to. Sometimes it gets a little chilly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 90.96322350736685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, you couldn’t adjust them, you couldn’t change them. He invented something that we called the Dave whatever his last name was, the Dave something or other thermostat fooler. It was basically a washcloth that you dipped in water. You’d wrap it around the thermostat, and the evaporation would cause the temperature to be a little bit lower at that thermostat where the thermostat was sensing it, so it would turn up the heat in the rest of the room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s a good idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So you could have a Hoot Gibson thermostat fooler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I like that. Because in some offices they do that, they actually lock the thermostat, so you don’t adjust them. This one I think, Rebecca’s, you can adjust. I know in my office I’ve adjusted it. We’re not technically supposed to. Sometimes it gets a little chilly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones over in SAIL, they weren’t adjustable; you couldn’t change them. We had the Dave thermostat fooler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Around here they keep the air conditioner, I don’t know, 65 at all times of the year."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 101.07024834151872, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So you could have a Hoot Gibson thermostat fooler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I like that. Because in some offices they do that, they actually lock the thermostat, so you don’t adjust them. This one I think, Rebecca’s, you can adjust. I know in my office I’ve adjusted it. We’re not technically supposed to. Sometimes it gets a little chilly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones over in SAIL, they weren’t adjustable; you couldn’t change them. We had the Dave thermostat fooler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Around here they keep the air conditioner, I don’t know, 65 at all times of the year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it gets hot here in the summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does in the summer, but in the winter I don’t know why we need to run an air conditioner."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 112.30027593502079, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones over in SAIL, they weren’t adjustable; you couldn’t change them. We had the Dave thermostat fooler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Around here they keep the air conditioner, I don’t know, 65 at all times of the year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it gets hot here in the summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does in the summer, but in the winter I don’t know why we need to run an air conditioner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, let’s be warmer in the winter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. I wanted to ask you—I had asked Rhea when we sat down for some interviews. I asked her about her spouse duties, because of course as a spouse to an astronaut you had responsibilities like the parties and things of that nature."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 42, "return_to_go": 124.77808437224532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it gets hot here in the summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does in the summer, but in the winter I don’t know why we need to run an air conditioner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, let’s be warmer in the winter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. I wanted to ask you—I had asked Rhea when we sat down for some interviews. I asked her about her spouse duties, because of course as a spouse to an astronaut you had responsibilities like the parties and things of that nature."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh golly, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So one of the things that I wanted to ask about though was you had a toddler at home. You had a very busy hectic job. You were out at AOD, and Rhea was preparing for her first flight. How did you manage all of that with a toddler in tow and two very active careers?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 119.56879191014377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She did. Then subsequent to that, golly, her oldest son wound up living and working in Paris, so in later years she flew to Paris. Then I think years later he moved to Mexico City and she flew down to Mexico City. So she really became a world traveler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s neat. That’s wonderful that that happened. I was always just curious how it worked before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh golly, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand the challenges much more now myself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were some big challenges, but several of the secretaries in the Office were willing to come over to our house and spend the night with Paul and watch him and get him. At that point I guess he was big enough they could get him to school in the morning. Or maybe they would just be there until Shirley or Martha showed up when we had them working for us. But yes, it was a challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can’t leave a three-year-old alone."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 132.85421323349308, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh golly, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand the challenges much more now myself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were some big challenges, but several of the secretaries in the Office were willing to come over to our house and spend the night with Paul and watch him and get him. At that point I guess he was big enough they could get him to school in the morning. Or maybe they would just be there until Shirley or Martha showed up when we had them working for us. But yes, it was a challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can’t leave a three-year-old alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask about planning of the party. You had mentioned that Rhea had had that party for your first flight. What’d you do for her flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 147.61579248165899, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were some big challenges, but several of the secretaries in the Office were willing to come over to our house and spend the night with Paul and watch him and get him. At that point I guess he was big enough they could get him to school in the morning. Or maybe they would just be there until Shirley or Martha showed up when we had them working for us. But yes, it was a challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can’t leave a three-year-old alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask about planning of the party. You had mentioned that Rhea had had that party for your first flight. What’d you do for her flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same thing. We had the prelaunch parties. Rhea did all the work to put those together too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, she did."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 14.54335537329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did wind up that way. Yes, I had heard either Charlie or one of the guys say, yes, this was the end of the year clearance flight. We were supposed to have two satellites. There was a problem with one of them either with the booster or with the satellite itself, so the company had elected to pull it off the mission. Here we are, we’re left with just one satellite, with the Materials Science Laboratory. We had a whole lot of experiments to do, but we didn’t really have enough to fill up a whole mission.\\n\\n There has been suggested that the reason we didn’t get canceled outright was because we had Congressman Nelson on board. It may be. I think I’ve heard Pinky use that expression, the end of year clearance flight. Whatever cats and dogs we had left over we scraped onto Columbia and went and flew it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it weren’t [for] the fact that we had Bill Nelson on board—that kept us from getting just outright canceled and move those different parts onto other missions. Probably in that regard we were lucky. I’ll bet NASA would have been really hesitant to cancel the flight that had the congressman on it. There may be some real validity to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we were talking I thought of one additional thing. I remember a few years ago I had sent you a drawing that someone had made of a dragon and a patch. I wondered if you would put that on the recording."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, and I did that drawing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll see if I can track that down again. I remember seeing it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You probably still have a copy of that, don’t you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s in the archive. I just need to remember where it is."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.2441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there’s quite a bit we can talk about 27."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you had a wide variety of missions. STS-47 and 71."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you happen to watch Secret Space Escapes?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t think I’ve seen that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was on the Science Channel. I just got a copy of it. You probably know STS-27 we had all that tile damage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I was thinking about that when you were talking about the other problem you had with the OMS."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you happen to watch Secret Space Escapes?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t think I’ve seen that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was on the Science Channel. I just got a copy of it. You probably know STS-27 we had all that tile damage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I was thinking about that when you were talking about the other problem you had with the OMS."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They interviewed Mullane, they interviewed me, they interviewed Frank [L.] Culbertson, because he was I guess CapCom for reentry I think for that one. They put together a whole hour program on STS-27."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I’d love to see that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.609999999999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was on the Science Channel. I just got a copy of it. You probably know STS-27 we had all that tile damage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I was thinking about that when you were talking about the other problem you had with the OMS."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They interviewed Mullane, they interviewed me, they interviewed Frank [L.] Culbertson, because he was I guess CapCom for reentry I think for that one. They put together a whole hour program on STS-27."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I’d love to see that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the difficulties. I don’t know if I can get another copy of it. They sent me a DVD [Digital Video Disc] of it, and it was called Secret Space Escapes. It was on the Science Channel. November I guess is when they actually showed it. They had interviewed Jerry [M.] Linenger and he talked about the fire on Mir. Oh, shoot, I don’t even know who all they interviewed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We might be able to get a copy of that, because I think they’ve been asking us for stuff from Shuttle-Mir about that. So I wonder if we can get a copy. They haven’t been working with me, they’ve been working with some other colleague."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They interviewed Mullane, they interviewed me, they interviewed Frank [L.] Culbertson, because he was I guess CapCom for reentry I think for that one. They put together a whole hour program on STS-27."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I’d love to see that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the difficulties. I don’t know if I can get another copy of it. They sent me a DVD [Digital Video Disc] of it, and it was called Secret Space Escapes. It was on the Science Channel. November I guess is when they actually showed it. They had interviewed Jerry [M.] Linenger and he talked about the fire on Mir. Oh, shoot, I don’t even know who all they interviewed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We might be able to get a copy of that, because I think they’ve been asking us for stuff from Shuttle-Mir about that. So I wonder if we can get a copy. They haven’t been working with me, they’ve been working with some other colleague."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jaime Hanaway, I think, was the one who contacted me. Then when I did the interview I came to Houston. They had set themselves up a little studio in one of the hotels downtown. This would have been like six months ago, something like that, that I came and talked to them. They did a whole entire hour on STS-27 and our mess with the tiles and the reentry. They ramped it up a little bit like they always do, but still it was pretty interesting production that they put together on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll see if I can track a copy down."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00224:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the difficulties. I don’t know if I can get another copy of it. They sent me a DVD [Digital Video Disc] of it, and it was called Secret Space Escapes. It was on the Science Channel. November I guess is when they actually showed it. They had interviewed Jerry [M.] Linenger and he talked about the fire on Mir. Oh, shoot, I don’t even know who all they interviewed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We might be able to get a copy of that, because I think they’ve been asking us for stuff from Shuttle-Mir about that. So I wonder if we can get a copy. They haven’t been working with me, they’ve been working with some other colleague."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jaime Hanaway, I think, was the one who contacted me. Then when I did the interview I came to Houston. They had set themselves up a little studio in one of the hotels downtown. This would have been like six months ago, something like that, that I came and talked to them. They did a whole entire hour on STS-27 and our mess with the tiles and the reentry. They ramped it up a little bit like they always do, but still it was pretty interesting production that they put together on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll see if I can track a copy down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was episode 104 they called it. Episode 101 was “Fire on the Mir” with Jerry Linenger. Episode 104 wound up focusing on STS-27 and the tile damage. They did quite a bang-up job of it. They had some actors. They picked someone who resembled me and someone who resembled Mullane except he had hair. Actually back then Mullane had a little bit of hair. They did quite a good show."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll see. A lot of times people are posting their shows to the Web these days. I’ll have to go out and see."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.14270612797354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was part of the National Personnel Records Center, and the civilian building was in south St. Louis on 111 Winnebago. All of the civilian personnel records of government employees and other tax records were at that location. At the time, they were designated to serve as one of the two locations where the records recovery would be processed. So there were a number of people there that were involved in it. Lee Gary was the assistant director for civilian records, and Earl Rengstorff was the civilian branch chief, who had oversight of the project. I was a first-line supervisor. We came to have over 100 intermittents who worked on two shifts, a day shift and an evening shift, processing those burned records. That came in what they called \"tiger cages,\" which were about, as I recall, 10 feet high. The cages had big metal bars where the records had been put into the freeze-drying chamber. I think it was in eastern Ohio. Once the records were sufficiently dried, after the initial recovery, they were shipped back to one of the two locations: at the military building or the civilian building. And we would open the cages and then just gradually lift out chunks of records to identify names and service numbers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you started at the National Archives, this was just a few months after the fire. Right? This was in December or so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. Did they–[CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did they–you started talking about, you know, kind of the records recovery process there. Did they give you training ahead of time on what to do with these records, or did you have some of this experience coming in?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 16.82522903108171, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. Did they–[CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did they–you started talking about, you know, kind of the records recovery process there. Did they give you training ahead of time on what to do with these records, or did you have some of this experience coming in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't really have any experience with that sort of thing. But I think they felt like, given my educational background, they didn't really need to give me training. There were a number of jobs that I had, and I said, \"Well, will I be given training on this or that?\" The managers indicated, \"Oh, no. I'm sure you can figure it out.\" It wasn't really all that complicated, Stephanie. There weren't that many steps, really. People would take a portion of the burned records and lift them out of the tiger cages. You might take, like, a couple of armfuls of them or handfuls of them, and then basically just start looking through to see if they all were for various veterans, or if it was all a record that was pertaining to one veteran. When you had that identified, you put it in a manila folder, and then put it in a fresh box where it would go into like a keypunch process, when you filled up an entire cardboard box. They had a group of people who did keypunching at the time, in the morning or like a day and an evening shift, I think, as I recall. The keypunch process would then put a registry number on each one of those manila folders, so that it was possible to identify the veteran by the service number and name. I wasn't given any specific training on it. It was just a fairly simple process of three or four steps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so at this point, you were a day supervisor for this recovery project, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.406349836874773, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We started at 7:30 a.m., and my shift was over at 4:00 p.m. There was an evening supervisor to process those records as quickly as possible because, as you could imagine, there were people all across the country already writing inquiries about those World War I and World War II records, and veterans, you know, trying to get military benefits. So managers had two shifts going. The evening supervisor was John Carver."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was his first government job, too. He came from the private industry, and he and I had known each other earlier. Basically, he was the evening supervisor. I was the day supervisor. We also worked mandatory overtime. When I first went to work there, we worked Saturdays and holidays to try to process those records as quickly as possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't really an option, but it wasn't that terrible, because I was young, and it wasn't that much of a burden. It was difficult, but we worked holidays and Saturdays to try to get those things processed as quickly as possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you said the records were freeze-dried. What does that do to the record? Why were they freeze-dried?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.451499818749747, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was his first government job, too. He came from the private industry, and he and I had known each other earlier. Basically, he was the evening supervisor. I was the day supervisor. We also worked mandatory overtime. When I first went to work there, we worked Saturdays and holidays to try to process those records as quickly as possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't really an option, but it wasn't that terrible, because I was young, and it wasn't that much of a burden. It was difficult, but we worked holidays and Saturdays to try to get those things processed as quickly as possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you said the records were freeze-dried. What does that do to the record? Why were they freeze-dried?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It doesn't do any damage to the record. When the records were taken off the sixth floor, they were wet, because the fire had burned for days and days, and the fire department continued to spray water onto the sixth floor. The records that were recovered were all damp and various degrees of wet. NARA managers tried something that was relatively new at the time, and you probably know about it. The NARA managers shipped those records to a freeze-drying chamber. That was, I think, part of—I'm not quite sure at this point. I don't recall. But it was a large freeze-drying chamber, where you could drive large, large groups of records into the chamber, and then it would be sealed, and the moisture would be gradually withdrawn, because it created a vacuum, which took the moisture out of the records. Once they reached a sufficient level of dryness, the records were ready to be shipped back to St. Louis. It was called a freeze-drying process. It was actually more of a vacuum-drying process, although in the process of drying the records, I think they may have been actually frozen to draw the moisture out of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then when they arrived at the Civilian Personnel Records Center, they were dry, but they could still be moldy or discolored or—?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.818624933317706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About half of them were sent to the civilian records building, which was part of the National Personnel Records Center. The other half was sent to the military personnel records building, which both parts comprise the National Personnel Records Center, much as it is today in St. Louis. So there was, like, a 50-50 division, I guess, close to that, where half of the records went back to the civilian building, and half of them went back to the military building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And this is just for space reasons?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [CROSS TALKING] They didn't have enough room at either building to do all the records because, as I said, they took one of the bays in the civilian building and took the records down off the shelves and took the shelving down so that you had open space to work at tables. We had over 100 people. I think that the military building probably had close to the same number of people, who came in on an intermittent basis. They were mostly students, and they came in at various times during the day and processed the records. They were not full-time employees. They were hired specifically for the project. A lot of them want to work full time for the government because they were students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then they were putting these freeze-dried or vacuum-dried records, you said, into manila folders."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were like typical manila folders you deal with, you know, whatever. They are 8 1/2 by 11 inches. It was just a small fragment. They also had a smaller envelope that was, like, a half-envelope, and you could drop portions of records in–if there was just this very small, one document, they would drop them into a half-file. And so you had the two different types of manila folders, the full-size and the half-size, but they were the same kinds of manila folders that you see today on your desk, probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then were those being entered into a system, like, for data entry? Were they being entered into a system at that time, or was that done later?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.844478646526344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. It was part of the process. Once you got a cardboard box—and they were, like, records center boxes full of files, because as you gradually processed them during the time you were there, you would fill up a box with the manila folders from front to back or from back to front. When you finished a box, and it was full of recovered records, they were sent to keypunch, and the keypunch people worked, then, subsequent to that recovery process and entered it into a registry system. So it was pretty much, if the record was recovered one day, within a couple of days after that, they were entered into the registry system by being punched. Does that make sense? It wasn't simultaneous. It was two steps in the process: the recovery and folderizing, putting it into a box, and then when the box was full, sending that box into keypunch where there were probably, I think, between 25 and 30 people who worked full time keypunching those records and putting them into a registry system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you had to supervise this entire process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I supervised the recovery and the boxing process. Once it went into the keypunch operator, it was handled by a different supervisor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Do you know what kind of information they were putting in that registry system? I know that was on the other side, but what information were they putting in there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew what they were putting in. They were putting in the person's name and their service number, or the name and Social Security number, whatever could be identified on that record in terms of the name, service number, or Social Security number. And if you had a partial record with the name and a date of birth, but you didn't have a service number on that document, you underlined the birth date so that it was, name and birth date, or name and service number. Then that was put into the registry file, which was computerized, and then it was assigned to a registry location so that you could search them by their registry location."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. So kind of whatever information they can pull from that record."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.827198496140383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I supervised the recovery and the boxing process. Once it went into the keypunch operator, it was handled by a different supervisor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. Do you know what kind of information they were putting in that registry system? I know that was on the other side, but what information were they putting in there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew what they were putting in. They were putting in the person's name and their service number, or the name and Social Security number, whatever could be identified on that record in terms of the name, service number, or Social Security number. And if you had a partial record with the name and a date of birth, but you didn't have a service number on that document, you underlined the birth date so that it was, name and birth date, or name and service number. Then that was put into the registry file, which was computerized, and then it was assigned to a registry location so that you could search them by their registry location."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see. So kind of whatever information they can pull from that record."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Whatever you pull from the recovered portion of it. In some cases, you know, the service number was burned up. So they didn't have that. But you had portions of documents with the man's name and birth date. I'm saying men–it was mostly men–and birthdate and his name. Then you put that into the registry. If you had a service number, so much the better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Now, these records, you said that there's sometimes fragments there. They can be brittle. They obviously had gone through some damage there. Are there any sort of precautions that the intermittent staff had to take when they're handling these records?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.75352418523664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the time, Stephanie, those were not yet accessioned records into the National Archives. They were just in our physical custody. They were still in the legal custody of the Department of the Defense [DOD]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So these were not considered, at the time, permanent records that would be accessioned into the National Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. They were not permanent. They were considered–geez, what's the archival term for that? Um, they were–[CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Temporary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were unscheduled. They weren't considered temporary, and they weren't considered permanent. They were just considered unscheduled. I think part of the process involved, subsequent to that, was to negotiate with the DOD the length of time before they would be accessioned by the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then at what point–you said that you became a management analyst? At what point were you hired into that position?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.28169353915182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. They were not permanent. They were considered–geez, what's the archival term for that? Um, they were–[CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Temporary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were unscheduled. They weren't considered temporary, and they weren't considered permanent. They were just considered unscheduled. I think part of the process involved, subsequent to that, was to negotiate with the DOD the length of time before they would be accessioned by the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then at what point–you said that you became a management analyst? At what point were you hired into that position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was late August or early September 1974. There were a number of management staff positions that were open, and since the project was winding down and, obviously, I needed another job where I would either be assigned to correspondence or some kind of job, and I applied for a management analyst job. And so I went into that position. Then in September, which was initially when I was the supervisory archives technician, I was a [GS-]5. And then when I went into that management analyst series, I guess, much as it is now, it was like a [GS-]5/7/9."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you said–[CROSS TALKING]."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 28.090770599057578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were unscheduled. They weren't considered temporary, and they weren't considered permanent. They were just considered unscheduled. I think part of the process involved, subsequent to that, was to negotiate with the DOD the length of time before they would be accessioned by the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So then at what point–you said that you became a management analyst? At what point were you hired into that position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was late August or early September 1974. There were a number of management staff positions that were open, and since the project was winding down and, obviously, I needed another job where I would either be assigned to correspondence or some kind of job, and I applied for a management analyst job. And so I went into that position. Then in September, which was initially when I was the supervisory archives technician, I was a [GS-]5. And then when I went into that management analyst series, I guess, much as it is now, it was like a [GS-]5/7/9."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you said–[CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was when I joined the management staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So previous to that, you said that the other project was winding down when you applied for this position. So you're saying that all of those records that had been damaged, by that time then, were already in the registry system, and they were re-boxed or...[CROSSTALKING]. So that just lasted a few months?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.767522887841753, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was late August or early September 1974. There were a number of management staff positions that were open, and since the project was winding down and, obviously, I needed another job where I would either be assigned to correspondence or some kind of job, and I applied for a management analyst job. And so I went into that position. Then in September, which was initially when I was the supervisory archives technician, I was a [GS-]5. And then when I went into that management analyst series, I guess, much as it is now, it was like a [GS-]5/7/9."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you said–[CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was when I joined the management staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So previous to that, you said that the other project was winding down when you applied for this position. So you're saying that all of those records that had been damaged, by that time then, were already in the registry system, and they were re-boxed or...[CROSSTALKING]. So that just lasted a few months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So it took the process of working at both of the buildings and working, you know, two shifts. So pretty much by August, it was finished at both of the buildings. Now, I wasn't at the military building, so I don't know. It may have gone on for a couple more weeks there, or it may have already been finished. But pretty much by the end of August, after having worked with this, you know, the freeze-dried records for eight months, they were pretty much processed into the registry system, and they were all kept at Page [9700 Page Avenue, St. Louis]. So the ones that were at the civilian building were shipped back to the military building. The ones that were processed at the military building just remained there, because the registry files were all at the military building, where they would be referenced by people who were familiar with military records. They didn't keep them in the civilian building after they had been processed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Wow. That seems like it was a pretty efficient process. It went pretty quickly."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 33.77156361506135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at the military building on most days, and occasionally I worked at the civilian building, if there was a project. But when I worked on the records monograph for the recovery process, I was only at the military building, because, I believe, most of the resources for that were already at the military building that we used, like pay vouchers and morning reports and all that sort of thing. That was at the military building. So once I started on that monograph, I was just pretty much exclusively at the military building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about the monograph? I know that you compiled this directory of sources, so maybe just describe what you were doing with that, and what the end result was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were trying to list every possible source of information for records recovery or, you know, verification of information that could be used to verify military service, like the pay vouchers and the morning reports and sick reports and a lot of those things. So, let me look at the date here. I finished that, I guess, by July of 1975, because that's the date that's on the monograph. And it lists the microfilm records, the paper records. And then part of it is also where there were state resources that people could write to. So it was divided kind of by chapters, and it was also divided by World War I and World War II sources of information. So there's [CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pardon?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 35.301737350068166, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were trying to list every possible source of information for records recovery or, you know, verification of information that could be used to verify military service, like the pay vouchers and the morning reports and sick reports and a lot of those things. So, let me look at the date here. I finished that, I guess, by July of 1975, because that's the date that's on the monograph. And it lists the microfilm records, the paper records. And then part of it is also where there were state resources that people could write to. So it was divided kind of by chapters, and it was also divided by World War I and World War II sources of information. So there's [CROSS TALKING]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pardon?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The sources—some of them were still in the states. There were sources of medical information, too, from clinical records. So I tried to list all those, too. But by the time I got done, there were literally hundreds of alternate sources that you could go through to try to verify military service or the character of military service, and also verification of states that had collected separation documents that you could write to so far. The states were willing to assist you in sending back information, and sometimes copies of the DD form 214 that was issued to the veteran when he was released from service. There were also things like the court-martial records that were in Suitland, Maryland. If there was a suspicion that the veteran had been court-martialed or received less than honorable service, you could go to those court-martial records. So, does that give you a little bit of the flavor of that monograph? It was given as—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "These were sources that were..."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.930192209207647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you ever used one of those machines?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have. Yes. And I know exactly what you're talking about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "People used to sometimes fall asleep, because it was so difficult to focus your eyes hour after hour on the screen. And I never was that upset with them when I would walk through the aisles if somebody dozed off, because it was hard as heck to be alert for eight hours a day, looking at all those images flashing past your eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Did you work with, or did someone at NARA work with, the military services to determine which records could be used to help reconstruct the military record?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. We mostly knew things that were available and gathered information, and we had the pay vouchers in St. Louis. They knew that the court-martial records were in Washington [D.C.], and we had copies of all the morning reports from World War II and World War I that were already on microfilm there. They hadn't been used as much, but once the fire occurred, and you had to use them more frequently, we had access to all that kind of thing. And I can’t say that, as far as I know, that they dealt a lot with the military to ask for other sources, because I'm not sure that the military knew of any more sources for, like, World War I and World War II that, you know, the military is more focused on the present day—the branches of the service, as opposed to historical records. There may have been some contact with the Archives [and] the Army and Navy and the Air Force to see if there were sources that they knew about that we didn't have. But that wasn't a real frequent kind of interaction, I don't think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So as the records reconstruction branch chief, what were your responsibilities? Were you overseeing the staff using that monograph that you had put together? Or what were your responsibilities as the branch chief?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 26.524056502580272, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, Cliff then went into correspondence on current Air Force records and worked in the Air Force and then Air Force Reference Branch. And then subsequent to that, he left and went to work at the Chicago Records Center and then San Francisco and then Boston. He was all over the country. But after his initial work on the sixth floor in the recovery [of records], immediately following the fire, and when the fire was out, and it was safe to go back onto the sixth floor, he didn't work in the subsequent steps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And in terms of you and others that were going out, it sounds like organizations would invite NARA staff to go talk to them about this process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. If it was a veterans’ organization, I think—one time I remember going to a VA hospital in Hannibal and another time to, like, a Purple Heart organization in Alexandria. They would write to the National Archives and ask if there was someone available that could come and talk to a group, on a certain date at a certain time, about the records, you know, the records that were recovered and what was available and how the inquiries were answered. When I spoke at that conference at the University of Iowa, I met one of the ladies who subsequently became one of the great preservationists, Mary Lynn Ritzenthaler, who was actually involved in some of the preservation for the Declaration of Independence. But that was a preservation conference. And so they talked about how you recovered records. And at the time, that freeze-drying or vacuum-drying process was first really on a large scale. It was pioneered in 1973 after the fire. Before that, that process had really not been used or explored too widely when paper records were wet, and because the technology wasn't available to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. So you did mention a minute ago about NARA or NARS, at that time, being part of the General Services Administration [GSA]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I believe it was in 1985 when they separated out and became an independent agency. So let's see here. I think you would have been in the Reconstruction Branch then. Did you notice any changes when that occurred?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 23.915618336200303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. If it was a veterans’ organization, I think—one time I remember going to a VA hospital in Hannibal and another time to, like, a Purple Heart organization in Alexandria. They would write to the National Archives and ask if there was someone available that could come and talk to a group, on a certain date at a certain time, about the records, you know, the records that were recovered and what was available and how the inquiries were answered. When I spoke at that conference at the University of Iowa, I met one of the ladies who subsequently became one of the great preservationists, Mary Lynn Ritzenthaler, who was actually involved in some of the preservation for the Declaration of Independence. But that was a preservation conference. And so they talked about how you recovered records. And at the time, that freeze-drying or vacuum-drying process was first really on a large scale. It was pioneered in 1973 after the fire. Before that, that process had really not been used or explored too widely when paper records were wet, and because the technology wasn't available to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. So you did mention a minute ago about NARA or NARS, at that time, being part of the General Services Administration [GSA]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I believe it was in 1985 when they separated out and became an independent agency. So let's see here. I think you would have been in the Reconstruction Branch then. Did you notice any changes when that occurred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't. I was already in Washington when that occurred. And when they celebrated the independence, I was already the assistant director or the deputy director at the Washington National Records Center. So I was in Suitland, and there was a large celebration at Archives at that—well, what we subsequently called Archives I, which was the building downtown at the time. We didn't have Archives II in College Park. Have you been to that building?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At College Park? Yes."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.906242595778114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I believe it was in 1985 when they separated out and became an independent agency. So let's see here. I think you would have been in the Reconstruction Branch then. Did you notice any changes when that occurred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't. I was already in Washington when that occurred. And when they celebrated the independence, I was already the assistant director or the deputy director at the Washington National Records Center. So I was in Suitland, and there was a large celebration at Archives at that—well, what we subsequently called Archives I, which was the building downtown at the time. We didn't have Archives II in College Park. Have you been to that building?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At College Park? Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That building didn't, I think, come online until, like, 1993 or 1994. So there was just the original Archives building, and they had a big celebration in the Rotunda at Archives I when they celebrated independence day. And I, as the assistant director at Suitland, was invited to attend that. So I was very fortunate. I mean, it was one of the first things I did when I went to Washington, because I went there in May of 1984. So I got there in time to celebrate the independence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's pretty neat."}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.618720615421605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the transition, which was in 1984 and 1985, there was a lot more publicity. It was kind of odd, but GSA, I think, always tried to keep NARA/NARS as, sort of, subservient and not involved in publicity so much. So basically, I think there was sort of a new sense that we needed to advertise to the American people our services and the fact that we were an agency that kept government records and so forth, and to try to establish a more independent identity and more of a recognized identity nationwide. So yeah, there was a definite transition period, and that went on for years, because as they gradually added more and more people that were involved in those kind of processes, we had more of an outreach to the federal community and to the public than we were ever allowed to have when we were part of the General Services Administration. A lot of what's involved, actually, in establishing that, in the types of activities you're involved in [federal agency records management inspections], we weren't encouraged to go out into federal agencies and review their records practices and things like that when we were part of NARS."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I'm not sure how long you've been with records management, but that was something that kind of grew in the years subsequent to that where we, sort of, took a more active role in trying to go out, establish good records management processes in the federal agencies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I mean, that's understandable...to take a few years or so to really get, you know, get your feet under you and figure out what is the mission and what do we need to do as an agency."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was more of a redefinition of the agency's mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you said that when this occurred, when the agency separated from GSA, you were the deputy director of the Washington National Records Center. Is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.243022906024006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I'm not sure how long you've been with records management, but that was something that kind of grew in the years subsequent to that where we, sort of, took a more active role in trying to go out, establish good records management processes in the federal agencies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I mean, that's understandable...to take a few years or so to really get, you know, get your feet under you and figure out what is the mission and what do we need to do as an agency."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was more of a redefinition of the agency's mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you said that when this occurred, when the agency separated from GSA, you were the deputy director of the Washington National Records Center. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I went to work there in May of 1984. So I was already in Washington at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What were some of your responsibilities?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.4344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fort Worth also had multiple locations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah. Do you think, over time, this will slow down with that Presidential memo [M-19-21/M-23-07] that came out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, that really will drastically—yes. It's already happened, because in the last 10 years, the IRS, as you know, converted to electronic records, and you probably file your tax return electronically. Well, that is all they kept. And the Internal Revenue Service keeps those electronic records. So gradually the volume of paper has diminished, and you need less and less and fewer storage areas for all those internal revenue records. And the same thing has happened for Social Security. So as agencies have converted to electronic records over the last— and I'm kind of out of the loop, because I've been retired for over 10 years—but as agencies have converted to electronic records, there have been fewer and fewer—there's fewer and fewer need for storage of textual records. And I think, at one time, Denver was much, much larger in terms of its holdings, because it kept all the paper records from Ogden. So I think if you look at the Denver Records Center, it's much, much smaller now than it was, say, back in the'90s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Well, we have a new facility now north of Denver."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, also, as you mentioned, too, under the Archivist Ferriero, they decided that they did not want to take any more textual records. So that, also, is going to have a very dramatic effect and downsizing of the record center system, because there won't be paper records coming into most locations. Suitland, though, will remain large, because a lot of the pre-archival records are stored there. And when I was the director, we looked at projections, and there would be large amounts of paper records stored there through 2050, because so many of those pre-archival, or records that were scheduled permanent, had really long retentions, before they would be turned over to the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. They're like permanent, or they're really long-term temporary?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, also, as you mentioned, too, under the Archivist Ferriero, they decided that they did not want to take any more textual records. So that, also, is going to have a very dramatic effect and downsizing of the record center system, because there won't be paper records coming into most locations. Suitland, though, will remain large, because a lot of the pre-archival records are stored there. And when I was the director, we looked at projections, and there would be large amounts of paper records stored there through 2050, because so many of those pre-archival, or records that were scheduled permanent, had really long retentions, before they would be turned over to the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. They're like permanent, or they're really long-term temporary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Well, there were some long-term temporary, but there were also a lot of long-term records that were considered to be permanent, where the agencies would retain legal custody for, like, 50 years or 60 years before it was turned over to NARA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, they'll be there for a while. [LAUGHS]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Suitland will be there for a long time. It'll be one of the last record centers to close. The St. Louis military building, I guess, will never close, because they're getting electronic military records to service. So they will continue their correspondence functions for the foreseeable future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that you've been retired for how long?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Well, there were some long-term temporary, but there were also a lot of long-term records that were considered to be permanent, where the agencies would retain legal custody for, like, 50 years or 60 years before it was turned over to NARA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, they'll be there for a while. [LAUGHS]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Suitland will be there for a long time. It'll be one of the last record centers to close. The St. Louis military building, I guess, will never close, because they're getting electronic military records to service. So they will continue their correspondence functions for the foreseeable future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that you've been retired for how long?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired in 2011."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what that day was like?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Suitland will be there for a long time. It'll be one of the last record centers to close. The St. Louis military building, I guess, will never close, because they're getting electronic military records to service. So they will continue their correspondence functions for the foreseeable future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that you've been retired for how long?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired in 2011."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what that day was like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What? Pardon? What that day was like?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you have memories of, you know, did someone throw you a party, or did they do anything special for you when you retired?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired in 2011."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what that day was like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What? Pardon? What that day was like?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you have memories of, you know, did someone throw you a party, or did they do anything special for you when you retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to keep it as low as possible, and keep it a low-key thing. And there was a small reception at the Washington National Records Center. But it was during the Christmas holidays that carried over into January. So, mostly, there were a handful of people there from the building and a few people from the central office who came out. But, for the most part, most of the senior management people were on leave for the holidays, which was okay. I didn't want a large celebration or anything like that, because sometimes some of the things that are said at those kinds of anniversary or retirement parties are not things that people felt all along, up through your career. And, at the end, it seemed like there was a certain amount of insincerity, and I just didn't particularly care for that. And I didn't really feel like I wanted to have that kind of a big celebration or anything like that. I wanted to, just, sort of keep it. So I sent out an announcement to a lot of the people that I'd worked with in the regions. The people I worked with in Central Office, said that I'd worked for NARA, and it was the only agency I worked for, for 37 years, but that I felt like it was time to retire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Is there anything that you miss about it?"}]}
{"block_id": "nprc-oral-histories-00000:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What? Pardon? What that day was like?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you have memories of, you know, did someone throw you a party, or did they do anything special for you when you retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to keep it as low as possible, and keep it a low-key thing. And there was a small reception at the Washington National Records Center. But it was during the Christmas holidays that carried over into January. So, mostly, there were a handful of people there from the building and a few people from the central office who came out. But, for the most part, most of the senior management people were on leave for the holidays, which was okay. I didn't want a large celebration or anything like that, because sometimes some of the things that are said at those kinds of anniversary or retirement parties are not things that people felt all along, up through your career. And, at the end, it seemed like there was a certain amount of insincerity, and I just didn't particularly care for that. And I didn't really feel like I wanted to have that kind of a big celebration or anything like that. I wanted to, just, sort of keep it. So I sent out an announcement to a lot of the people that I'd worked with in the regions. The people I worked with in Central Office, said that I'd worked for NARA, and it was the only agency I worked for, for 37 years, but that I felt like it was time to retire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Is there anything that you miss about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think I miss talking and working with some of the people. There were very nice people that worked in Archives II. Some very nice people. And also some very nice people that I worked with in the regions. And I sort of miss that. Occasionally, I still have some interaction with them, if they write, or I talk to them on the telephone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it looks like I've kept you over a little bit in our scheduled time. Was there anything else that you wanted to add to the interview? Any words of wisdom or stories that you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 27.926215392206064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember when Kennedy was running for president and you just fell in love with him, and he was so neat. And I always wanted to travel. And so when he talked about the Peace Corps, oh, I knew that was my niche. Yeah. And my parents were very supportive, although I guess they were a little worried. I don't know. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you traveled any before then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about friends of yours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know anyone else who was going in. Um. I guess they would support. I, I don't remember anything particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the application process like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 27.69579488022896, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about friends of yours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know anyone else who was going in. Um. I guess they would support. I, I don't remember anything particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the application process like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember there was some form and it asked you where you wanted to go. And I had always been interested in India and Gandhi, so I said India. And then I got a letter back saying, we have a program in education going to West Africa and we can offer you that. And I said yes. I didn't care. It wasn't that strong that I had to go to India in other words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And then the initial training that you got, explain that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.550883200254397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know anyone else who was going in. Um. I guess they would support. I, I don't remember anything particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the application process like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember there was some form and it asked you where you wanted to go. And I had always been interested in India and Gandhi, so I said India. And then I got a letter back saying, we have a program in education going to West Africa and we can offer you that. And I said yes. I didn't care. It wasn't that strong that I had to go to India in other words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And then the initial training that you got, explain that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. We were a group of volunteers that all went first to Berkeley, and it was West Africa. Some were going to Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, and I think Sierra Leone. And they identified some people who split off from our group and went to San Francisco State, which was an elementary program, I believe. Well, at the end of that summer, we were supposed to go back. It was between our junior and senior year. And I think it was an experiment for Peace Corps to see how it would work if we were, I think, supposed to go back to our senior year in college and learn about Liberia or wherever we were going. And then we would be so much more knowledgeable when we went back for our second real summer of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had already been accepted into the Peace Corps before you finished college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.500981333615997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember there was some form and it asked you where you wanted to go. And I had always been interested in India and Gandhi, so I said India. And then I got a letter back saying, we have a program in education going to West Africa and we can offer you that. And I said yes. I didn't care. It wasn't that strong that I had to go to India in other words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And then the initial training that you got, explain that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. We were a group of volunteers that all went first to Berkeley, and it was West Africa. Some were going to Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, and I think Sierra Leone. And they identified some people who split off from our group and went to San Francisco State, which was an elementary program, I believe. Well, at the end of that summer, we were supposed to go back. It was between our junior and senior year. And I think it was an experiment for Peace Corps to see how it would work if we were, I think, supposed to go back to our senior year in college and learn about Liberia or wherever we were going. And then we would be so much more knowledgeable when we went back for our second real summer of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had already been accepted into the Peace Corps before you finished college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But at the end of the first summer, they deselected some people. And I was the only one who was transferred from the secondary education programs at Berkeley over to the San Francisco State group that were elementary ed teachers. I don't know what, what there was about me that said elementary. And in my later life, I've only worked with intermediate and high school kids so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now tell me about the second part of your training then, after you graduated from college."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.11220148179555, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. We were a group of volunteers that all went first to Berkeley, and it was West Africa. Some were going to Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, and I think Sierra Leone. And they identified some people who split off from our group and went to San Francisco State, which was an elementary program, I believe. Well, at the end of that summer, we were supposed to go back. It was between our junior and senior year. And I think it was an experiment for Peace Corps to see how it would work if we were, I think, supposed to go back to our senior year in college and learn about Liberia or wherever we were going. And then we would be so much more knowledgeable when we went back for our second real summer of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had already been accepted into the Peace Corps before you finished college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But at the end of the first summer, they deselected some people. And I was the only one who was transferred from the secondary education programs at Berkeley over to the San Francisco State group that were elementary ed teachers. I don't know what, what there was about me that said elementary. And in my later life, I've only worked with intermediate and high school kids so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now tell me about the second part of your training then, after you graduated from college."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so that was at San Francisco State. As I remember, it was just regular classroom kind of things. I guess history. And we didn't have to learn a language because the official language of Liberia is English and, um. I, there was a component at the end where they were, um, going on some kind of physical training. And I think they learned how to drive a pickup truck with standard gears. But I didn't have to go because supposedly I had had my physical training the previous year. We went, for that, we just went up to Yosemite, spent a few days camping. Everybody just went off with whoever they wanted to. I guess we had tents and canned food and that was our physical training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was between your junior and senior year you're referring to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.791334979772834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But at the end of the first summer, they deselected some people. And I was the only one who was transferred from the secondary education programs at Berkeley over to the San Francisco State group that were elementary ed teachers. I don't know what, what there was about me that said elementary. And in my later life, I've only worked with intermediate and high school kids so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now tell me about the second part of your training then, after you graduated from college."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so that was at San Francisco State. As I remember, it was just regular classroom kind of things. I guess history. And we didn't have to learn a language because the official language of Liberia is English and, um. I, there was a component at the end where they were, um, going on some kind of physical training. And I think they learned how to drive a pickup truck with standard gears. But I didn't have to go because supposedly I had had my physical training the previous year. We went, for that, we just went up to Yosemite, spent a few days camping. Everybody just went off with whoever they wanted to. I guess we had tents and canned food and that was our physical training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was between your junior and senior year you're referring to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And then I was excused from the other training. So we got to San Francisco for my second summer of training, and there was a regular group who was just starting. And we were referred to as this experienced group, which was a joke. But, uh, we all were together in classes and everything, and the only thing I was excused from was the physical part at the end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Now you grew up in New York?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.65703886641426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so that was at San Francisco State. As I remember, it was just regular classroom kind of things. I guess history. And we didn't have to learn a language because the official language of Liberia is English and, um. I, there was a component at the end where they were, um, going on some kind of physical training. And I think they learned how to drive a pickup truck with standard gears. But I didn't have to go because supposedly I had had my physical training the previous year. We went, for that, we just went up to Yosemite, spent a few days camping. Everybody just went off with whoever they wanted to. I guess we had tents and canned food and that was our physical training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was between your junior and senior year you're referring to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And then I was excused from the other training. So we got to San Francisco for my second summer of training, and there was a regular group who was just starting. And we were referred to as this experienced group, which was a joke. But, uh, we all were together in classes and everything, and the only thing I was excused from was the physical part at the end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Now you grew up in New York?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went to school out in California, which is."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.922270205449703, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went to school out in California, which is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just for the training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to school in Buffalo, New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And then they sent you out for the training in California. You left for your service from California then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.246966894944112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just for the training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to school in Buffalo, New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And then they sent you out for the training in California. You left for your service from California then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went home for about two weeks, and then we all went out together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you leave from?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 21.385518772160125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to school in Buffalo, New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And then they sent you out for the training in California. You left for your service from California then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went home for about two weeks, and then we all went out together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you leave from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was probably in those days Idlewild, which is JFK now. I don't think it was from LaGuardia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your arrival in Liberia."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.650576413511248, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went home for about two weeks, and then we all went out together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you leave from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was probably in those days Idlewild, which is JFK now. I don't think it was from LaGuardia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your arrival in Liberia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I'm trying to think if we had an intermediate stop. We probably did, but I don't remember it. I remember landing at Roberts Field in Monrovia and it being hot. Hot, humid, awful. And there was a Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia, and they took us there and we stayed there for a couple of days. I guess it was like a staging. And people were sent out to the different parts of the country. And I was to go to Cape Palmas, which was the President Tubman's hometown. And it was majestically called Harper City, and it had a traffic light hanging in the middle of a road that never worked. But I think it was in honor of President Tubman.\n\nAnd we were met at the airport by a volunteer who had been teaching for one year, and his second year was to be as leader. And there was a small Peace Corps office in Harper, and he was there really just to help if there were any problems. And that's where our mail was delivered and, um. I was just outside of town. I had to walk maybe a mile or so into town to get to my school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other volunteers then in that general area?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 12.945084903901385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was probably in those days Idlewild, which is JFK now. I don't think it was from LaGuardia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your arrival in Liberia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I'm trying to think if we had an intermediate stop. We probably did, but I don't remember it. I remember landing at Roberts Field in Monrovia and it being hot. Hot, humid, awful. And there was a Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia, and they took us there and we stayed there for a couple of days. I guess it was like a staging. And people were sent out to the different parts of the country. And I was to go to Cape Palmas, which was the President Tubman's hometown. And it was majestically called Harper City, and it had a traffic light hanging in the middle of a road that never worked. But I think it was in honor of President Tubman.\n\nAnd we were met at the airport by a volunteer who had been teaching for one year, and his second year was to be as leader. And there was a small Peace Corps office in Harper, and he was there really just to help if there were any problems. And that's where our mail was delivered and, um. I was just outside of town. I had to walk maybe a mile or so into town to get to my school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other volunteers then in that general area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. There were probably 12 of us in Harper all together. Yeah. Yeah. Some were, you know, previous, you know, the group before us. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your home like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.52686543745046, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very nice. It was cement block. It was owned by President Tubman's son. He had three rentals. The people next door to me were Dutch Canadians. He worked for the lumber company, and she had two small children. And I shared the house with another volunteer who had been there a year already. And this Liberian girl who cooked for us. I guess she did our laundry. I don't remember. She was a high school student. We paid her tuition at the Catholic high school, and that was for a year.\n\nWhen she left, I moved into an apartment over a Lebanese store that sold cloth and canned goods and stuff. But it was right next to the marketplace. And, you know, these open markets and there was loud music playing till very late at night. I didn't like living there so much, but it was right in the middle of town. And it was another cement block house. It had pipes and everything for a bathroom, as did the other house, but there was no water coming through the pipes. It had to be hauled in by buckets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Why did you have to move the second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because she was leaving and I guess they didn't have another new volunteer. They didn't want me in the house all by myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they gave me a new volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, the woman that cooked for you, did she go with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.585406041611623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because she was leaving and I guess they didn't have another new volunteer. They didn't want me in the house all by myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they gave me a new volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, the woman that cooked for you, did she go with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That's when, the young girl, she went to, uh, we paid for her to go to a Catholic. I guess they called it the convent or something, for girls that were going to the Catholic high school. So we paid her tuition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of foods did she prepare for you? What was your diet like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.428228935124025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they gave me a new volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, the woman that cooked for you, did she go with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That's when, the young girl, she went to, uh, we paid for her to go to a Catholic. I guess they called it the convent or something, for girls that were going to the Catholic high school. So we paid her tuition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of foods did she prepare for you? What was your diet like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Butter and greens. And she used to bake bread. Oh, that was the best. There was a Firestone plantation about 30, 45 minutes up the road, and they had a store. And we would go up there in the Peace Corps leader's, he had a truck. And there was a small store and they had like frozen meats and things from Denmark and canned goods and stuff that weren't in the regular stores. And so we could buy lots of that stuff and she would fix something from that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the staple food?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.364698816804472, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That's when, the young girl, she went to, uh, we paid for her to go to a Catholic. I guess they called it the convent or something, for girls that were going to the Catholic high school. So we paid her tuition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of foods did she prepare for you? What was your diet like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Butter and greens. And she used to bake bread. Oh, that was the best. There was a Firestone plantation about 30, 45 minutes up the road, and they had a store. And we would go up there in the Peace Corps leader's, he had a truck. And there was a small store and they had like frozen meats and things from Denmark and canned goods and stuff that weren't in the regular stores. And so we could buy lots of that stuff and she would fix something from that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the staple food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The rice and I guess palm butter and greens and fufu. Dumboy or whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fufu is made out of cassava?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.734840626617931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't eat that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pepper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pepper. Yes. They had, the volunteers that were experienced, they had us all for dinner one of the first nights we were there. And the palm butter was so hot, and you're pouring it over the rice. So I was pouring it over. Oh, gosh. My mouth was on fire. And I know they were laughing at all of us. I know that they were. So that's how you learn."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. How did you do simple things like laundry?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.038711807353256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't eat that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pepper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pepper. Yes. They had, the volunteers that were experienced, they had us all for dinner one of the first nights we were there. And the palm butter was so hot, and you're pouring it over the rice. So I was pouring it over. Oh, gosh. My mouth was on fire. And I know they were laughing at all of us. I know that they were. So that's how you learn."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. How did you do simple things like laundry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Liberian girl and, you know, for living with us and feeding her and her school fees and everything. She did our laundry. I don't know. By hand. Downstairs in the, there was an empty lot next to the stairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then, um, tell me what job you actually did in Harper."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.376346452614728, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pepper. Yes. They had, the volunteers that were experienced, they had us all for dinner one of the first nights we were there. And the palm butter was so hot, and you're pouring it over the rice. So I was pouring it over. Oh, gosh. My mouth was on fire. And I know they were laughing at all of us. I know that they were. So that's how you learn."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. How did you do simple things like laundry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Liberian girl and, you know, for living with us and feeding her and her school fees and everything. She did our laundry. I don't know. By hand. Downstairs in the, there was an empty lot next to the stairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then, um, tell me what job you actually did in Harper."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. They first took me to the Catholic high school and they wanted me to teach algebra. And I have a mental block from small kid time about math. And I kept saying, no, I can't teach algebra. Oh, no. You just stay one page ahead of the kids. And that's how it was left. And I went home and I cried. And the next morning I got up and I went to talk to the Peace Corps leader and I said, I cannot do that. It's the, I tell people the Peace Corps was my most formative experience in who I became later in life besides my family. And that's the first time I ever had to take charge and demand something because I knew I couldn't do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really asserted yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.640384947349697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Liberian girl and, you know, for living with us and feeding her and her school fees and everything. She did our laundry. I don't know. By hand. Downstairs in the, there was an empty lot next to the stairs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then, um, tell me what job you actually did in Harper."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. They first took me to the Catholic high school and they wanted me to teach algebra. And I have a mental block from small kid time about math. And I kept saying, no, I can't teach algebra. Oh, no. You just stay one page ahead of the kids. And that's how it was left. And I went home and I cried. And the next morning I got up and I went to talk to the Peace Corps leader and I said, I cannot do that. It's the, I tell people the Peace Corps was my most formative experience in who I became later in life besides my family. And that's the first time I ever had to take charge and demand something because I knew I couldn't do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really asserted yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, the first time. And made me probably, you know, I, for 30 years I've traveled all through Europe and on my own. And I never could have done that before Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh. That was a good learning experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.037512280678637, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, the first time. And made me probably, you know, I, for 30 years I've traveled all through Europe and on my own. And I never could have done that before Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh. That was a good learning experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was. So I was in a small school. The Peace Corps leader said, oh, well, I know of this small school in the marketplace. So it was right near where I was living, in a church, small wooden church, one room, and in each corner was a different grade. And I had fourth grade and there were like three benches in a round, a chalkboard on a stand. Few textbooks. And I would just sit on the benches with the kids and we would have our lesson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Subjects taught?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Liberian history. I remember the textbook. The Americo- Liberians founded the country and the rest of the people there were barbarians. Which is the kids that I'm sitting there teaching. But there were American, Americo-Liberians in the town because of President Tubman growing up there. And they had a, their own social status and, um. Yeah, math, you know, that kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So define Americo-Liberians?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.819458089642931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was. So I was in a small school. The Peace Corps leader said, oh, well, I know of this small school in the marketplace. So it was right near where I was living, in a church, small wooden church, one room, and in each corner was a different grade. And I had fourth grade and there were like three benches in a round, a chalkboard on a stand. Few textbooks. And I would just sit on the benches with the kids and we would have our lesson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Subjects taught?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Liberian history. I remember the textbook. The Americo- Liberians founded the country and the rest of the people there were barbarians. Which is the kids that I'm sitting there teaching. But there were American, Americo-Liberians in the town because of President Tubman growing up there. And they had a, their own social status and, um. Yeah, math, you know, that kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So define Americo-Liberians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they, when the country was founded, was founded by, I think, ministers in Philadelphia or someplace like Boston, I don't know, to send, uh. Before the Civil War, they thought one way to solve the problem was to send Blacks back to where they came from. Of course, Liberia wasn't in existence there, but that's where they landed. And the Americo- Liberians set up the government and they used American money. And the whole structure of the government was based on American. And they really thought that they were, uh, way better than these barbarians of the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were really Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.577175655158812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Liberian history. I remember the textbook. The Americo- Liberians founded the country and the rest of the people there were barbarians. Which is the kids that I'm sitting there teaching. But there were American, Americo-Liberians in the town because of President Tubman growing up there. And they had a, their own social status and, um. Yeah, math, you know, that kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So define Americo-Liberians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they, when the country was founded, was founded by, I think, ministers in Philadelphia or someplace like Boston, I don't know, to send, uh. Before the Civil War, they thought one way to solve the problem was to send Blacks back to where they came from. Of course, Liberia wasn't in existence there, but that's where they landed. And the Americo- Liberians set up the government and they used American money. And the whole structure of the government was based on American. And they really thought that they were, uh, way better than these barbarians of the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were really Americans?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were. Well, they had been, yeah, they didn't speak any local dialect or anything. They had been in America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're referring to the Blacks that came?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.419084061287569, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they, when the country was founded, was founded by, I think, ministers in Philadelphia or someplace like Boston, I don't know, to send, uh. Before the Civil War, they thought one way to solve the problem was to send Blacks back to where they came from. Of course, Liberia wasn't in existence there, but that's where they landed. And the Americo- Liberians set up the government and they used American money. And the whole structure of the government was based on American. And they really thought that they were, uh, way better than these barbarians of the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were really Americans?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were. Well, they had been, yeah, they didn't speak any local dialect or anything. They had been in America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're referring to the Blacks that came?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's, I wasn't sure."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.354537845875075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were. Well, they had been, yeah, they didn't speak any local dialect or anything. They had been in America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're referring to the Blacks that came?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's, I wasn't sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were former slaves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. So they had a big influence then when they came back."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.720902394890363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't that the basis of Sierra Leone? Weren't there, um?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Similar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were sent by the English government. And that's the country next door to each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's where I served. And the, uh, the people were brought back to Freetown. And but so, the school, regular school day. Walk us through a."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.68989154987818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't that the basis of Sierra Leone? Weren't there, um?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Similar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were sent by the English government. And that's the country next door to each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's where I served. And the, uh, the people were brought back to Freetown. And but so, the school, regular school day. Walk us through a."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it only went to like 8:00 to 12:00. I guess we started with pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't remember. We, you know, there was no bell ringing. The kids didn't change classes. There was no place to go out like for a recess or anything. No one ever asked what I was doing. The man who was the principal of the school was a retired general from the Army. He was a, I think, half Americo-Liberian. He thought he was a lot better than everybody else, but he never came to see what you were doing. There was no supervision of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me the other subjects you taught."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.766546166531311, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were sent by the English government. And that's the country next door to each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's where I served. And the, uh, the people were brought back to Freetown. And but so, the school, regular school day. Walk us through a."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it only went to like 8:00 to 12:00. I guess we started with pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't remember. We, you know, there was no bell ringing. The kids didn't change classes. There was no place to go out like for a recess or anything. No one ever asked what I was doing. The man who was the principal of the school was a retired general from the Army. He was a, I think, half Americo-Liberian. He thought he was a lot better than everybody else, but he never came to see what you were doing. There was no supervision of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me the other subjects you taught."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember the social studies. I remember the English, and I must have done math. I don't know how much science I could have done, but I would guess that's it. There was no music or any enrichment type activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the students work at home afterwards? I mean, were they involved in family activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.962829073923679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it only went to like 8:00 to 12:00. I guess we started with pledging allegiance to the flag. I don't remember. We, you know, there was no bell ringing. The kids didn't change classes. There was no place to go out like for a recess or anything. No one ever asked what I was doing. The man who was the principal of the school was a retired general from the Army. He was a, I think, half Americo-Liberian. He thought he was a lot better than everybody else, but he never came to see what you were doing. There was no supervision of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me the other subjects you taught."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember the social studies. I remember the English, and I must have done math. I don't know how much science I could have done, but I would guess that's it. There was no music or any enrichment type activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the students work at home afterwards? I mean, were they involved in family activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. I know that some of the girls worked with their mother across the street in the marketplace. Um. I don't remember what boys were doing in particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of the marketplace, did you shop there often?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.292032304359642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember the social studies. I remember the English, and I must have done math. I don't know how much science I could have done, but I would guess that's it. There was no music or any enrichment type activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the students work at home afterwards? I mean, were they involved in family activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. I know that some of the girls worked with their mother across the street in the marketplace. Um. I don't remember what boys were doing in particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of the marketplace, did you shop there often?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the girl who did our cooking and lived with us would shop there. I mean, I could go and walk around and stuff, but very strong smells from the marketplace."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have an opportunity to travel at all in the country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.768924782621824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. I know that some of the girls worked with their mother across the street in the marketplace. Um. I don't remember what boys were doing in particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of the marketplace, did you shop there often?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the girl who did our cooking and lived with us would shop there. I mean, I could go and walk around and stuff, but very strong smells from the marketplace."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have an opportunity to travel at all in the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, a little bit. They, Peace Corps must have brought us up from Harper City to Monrovia, maybe once or twice during a year. And because it was a fly-in post, you know, it wasn't something we could just get in a money bus and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Harper was a fly-in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.187694202913137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the girl who did our cooking and lived with us would shop there. I mean, I could go and walk around and stuff, but very strong smells from the marketplace."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have an opportunity to travel at all in the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, a little bit. They, Peace Corps must have brought us up from Harper City to Monrovia, maybe once or twice during a year. And because it was a fly-in post, you know, it wasn't something we could just get in a money bus and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Harper was a fly-in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but there was a road up, where there were volunteers up along this road that was headed toward the Ivory Coast, but it didn't go anywhere beyond that. It didn't connect to any place else. So if I was going to go visit my boyfriend, I had to walk overnight, stomp through the bush with guides. I went with several other volunteers. I remember we slept on a floor of a house halfway, and then we reached the end of another road. And then I had to cross the country to see him in a money bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, in a money bus."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.764104669903485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, a little bit. They, Peace Corps must have brought us up from Harper City to Monrovia, maybe once or twice during a year. And because it was a fly-in post, you know, it wasn't something we could just get in a money bus and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Harper was a fly-in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but there was a road up, where there were volunteers up along this road that was headed toward the Ivory Coast, but it didn't go anywhere beyond that. It didn't connect to any place else. So if I was going to go visit my boyfriend, I had to walk overnight, stomp through the bush with guides. I went with several other volunteers. I remember we slept on a floor of a house halfway, and then we reached the end of another road. And then I had to cross the country to see him in a money bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, in a money bus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were talking about being a fly-in. But there weren't planes?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.293449633226095, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but there was a road up, where there were volunteers up along this road that was headed toward the Ivory Coast, but it didn't go anywhere beyond that. It didn't connect to any place else. So if I was going to go visit my boyfriend, I had to walk overnight, stomp through the bush with guides. I went with several other volunteers. I remember we slept on a floor of a house halfway, and then we reached the end of another road. And then I had to cross the country to see him in a money bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, in a money bus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were talking about being a fly-in. But there weren't planes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were planes, but we didn't have money for that. It was only if Peace Corps, I don't know, maybe for a holiday or something. They called us up to Monrovia. Or if we were sick, if there was a medical problem. But Harper had a small hospital with an older man who was a Frenchman. And at one point I remember I had an infection under my big toenail and I went there. I didn't tell the Peace Corps leader I needed to be flown to my, to. See, I was getting too independent and I just went to the hospital. The doctor said, oh, we need to pull your nail off. We'll put you to sleep. And I think they did it right then and there. I don't remember going home and coming back to the hospital. I have no idea what the operating room looked like because I was out.\n\nThey had an old, dilapidated car that was the ambulance that drove me a few, maybe a mile to my house. And I couldn't put my foot down. You know, your blood is pulsing in it. And I had to go up the stairs to my apartment on my rear end. And it was fine. But I don't know if anyone else went to the doctor at the local hospital. I really don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, this bus that you caught after hiking and then that bus took you up country. Describe the transportation."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.881610703584549, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were talking about being a fly-in. But there weren't planes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were planes, but we didn't have money for that. It was only if Peace Corps, I don't know, maybe for a holiday or something. They called us up to Monrovia. Or if we were sick, if there was a medical problem. But Harper had a small hospital with an older man who was a Frenchman. And at one point I remember I had an infection under my big toenail and I went there. I didn't tell the Peace Corps leader I needed to be flown to my, to. See, I was getting too independent and I just went to the hospital. The doctor said, oh, we need to pull your nail off. We'll put you to sleep. And I think they did it right then and there. I don't remember going home and coming back to the hospital. I have no idea what the operating room looked like because I was out.\n\nThey had an old, dilapidated car that was the ambulance that drove me a few, maybe a mile to my house. And I couldn't put my foot down. You know, your blood is pulsing in it. And I had to go up the stairs to my apartment on my rear end. And it was fine. But I don't know if anyone else went to the doctor at the local hospital. I really don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, this bus that you caught after hiking and then that bus took you up country. Describe the transportation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a money bus is like a Volkswagen kind of thing and packed with people, with chickens, maybe a goat. Packed with people. Some people on the roof and people getting on and off all along the way. And you just hail it. And if it was too full, it wouldn't stop. If they thought they could squeeze one more person on, they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were the roads like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.298505766233948, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, terrible dirt roads. The soil is, what they taught us, it was laterite, which is a red kind of leached out soil that's very fine. In fact, we have it here in Hawaii. And you would come out filthy, red tinged, out of the bus. Holes, you know. I understand that after we left, some of the roads out of Monrovia got paid, paved. But since then, Liberia's had some awful history with an uprising of local people. There was this Sergeant Doe who became president, I think. But it's, unfortunately, I think it was never colonized.\n\nI remember we took a vacation. There were enough Peace Corps volunteers for the vacation, summer vacation between the two school years that we were there, to charter a plane and we went to Kenya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a place in Kenya that had malted milkshakes. And then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Luxury."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but, oh, what was I saying? The, uh, Liberia never had a postal system or banks or. There was a Dutch company, I think, that had a Volkswagen dealership, like a trained mechanic in the middle of the town. And I think we could cash a check or get money there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, if there were no banks, how did you get your living allowance that Peace Corps provided?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.109450851371054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a place in Kenya that had malted milkshakes. And then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Luxury."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but, oh, what was I saying? The, uh, Liberia never had a postal system or banks or. There was a Dutch company, I think, that had a Volkswagen dealership, like a trained mechanic in the middle of the town. And I think we could cash a check or get money there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, if there were no banks, how did you get your living allowance that Peace Corps provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I guess it came to us through the Peace Corps leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you mentioned a boyfriend that you went to visit. That was another volunteer, correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.12161205707895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but, oh, what was I saying? The, uh, Liberia never had a postal system or banks or. There was a Dutch company, I think, that had a Volkswagen dealership, like a trained mechanic in the middle of the town. And I think we could cash a check or get money there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, if there were no banks, how did you get your living allowance that Peace Corps provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I guess it came to us through the Peace Corps leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you mentioned a boyfriend that you went to visit. That was another volunteer, correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. We met during training in the San Francisco area. He was at the very other end of the country, so we didn't see each other much. But then when we did, the sparks flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And his name?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.24623561897661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I guess it came to us through the Peace Corps leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you mentioned a boyfriend that you went to visit. That was another volunteer, correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. We met during training in the San Francisco area. He was at the very other end of the country, so we didn't see each other much. But then when we did, the sparks flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Ginlack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And he was a volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.495817354418453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. We met during training in the San Francisco area. He was at the very other end of the country, so we didn't see each other much. But then when we did, the sparks flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Ginlack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And he was a volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a volunteer. He was a teacher also. He was a trained teacher. He, um, here in Hawaii we both taught and he went into administration. And we got divorced after about ten years of marriage but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you both ended up in Hawaii afterwards."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.9953526160205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Ginlack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And he was a volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a volunteer. He was a teacher also. He was a trained teacher. He, um, here in Hawaii we both taught and he went into administration. And we got divorced after about ten years of marriage but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you both ended up in Hawaii afterwards."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you aware of your experience as a volunteer compared to any other education volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.772614017800556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a volunteer. He was a teacher also. He was a trained teacher. He, um, here in Hawaii we both taught and he went into administration. And we got divorced after about ten years of marriage but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you both ended up in Hawaii afterwards."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you aware of your experience as a volunteer compared to any other education volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. There was a girl friend that was my roommate in training, and she was in Harper also, and she taught at the government school. And, um, that was a real school, cement, you know, and it had a playground and stuff. But she had second grade with like 40 little kids. And she had such a hard time, you know, controlling, knowing what to do and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a big class."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 30.858460019778395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you aware of your experience as a volunteer compared to any other education volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. There was a girl friend that was my roommate in training, and she was in Harper also, and she taught at the government school. And, um, that was a real school, cement, you know, and it had a playground and stuff. But she had second grade with like 40 little kids. And she had such a hard time, you know, controlling, knowing what to do and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a big class."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, yeah, yeah. I don't think she was as happy as I was in my teaching situation when nobody bothered me. I could do pretty much what I wanted to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, after your service was done, which was at the end of the school year, you ended up coming home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 25.010444468862215, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, yeah, yeah. I don't think she was as happy as I was in my teaching situation when nobody bothered me. I could do pretty much what I wanted to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, after your service was done, which was at the end of the school year, you ended up coming home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, um, we were engaged by then, and at that time, I don't know how it works now. We were given a plane ticket to home and we could add stops along the way. And we were given, was it half of our living allowance? I'm not sure. A certain amount of the money that had been banked for us in the States, our big pay. And so we traveled through Europe. I know we went to Spain, we went to Italy, Germany, Paris, maybe London. And it was the time of terrible riots in the States when cities were being burned in New Jersey and stuff. Terrible time. And it was a time of hippies. We saw our first hippies and that was terribly exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Europe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Europe. And eventually we got back to New York, which was my home. And Peace Corps had a little newsletter with employment opportunities for returning volunteers. And my husband applied and he got Philadelphia, and so we went there. Well, I was planning our wedding, so I just did a little bit of subbing in Philly, but not much. But we had a year teaching. He was teaching there. We got married in Philadelphia. We went to Temple University that summer and by then this job opportunities paper became a little more formal, I think. And the state of Hawaii was recruiting teachers through that.\n\nAnd I was not an education major. They said, it's okay, you come and teach and you'll be in a regular school, you'll be supervised by a principal, you know. But we will give you your tenure after two years if everything went okay. And so I taught in Hawaii on that certification, never having had an education, formal education course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you end up, what level did you teach when you came to Hawaii?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.12271607651357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, um, we were engaged by then, and at that time, I don't know how it works now. We were given a plane ticket to home and we could add stops along the way. And we were given, was it half of our living allowance? I'm not sure. A certain amount of the money that had been banked for us in the States, our big pay. And so we traveled through Europe. I know we went to Spain, we went to Italy, Germany, Paris, maybe London. And it was the time of terrible riots in the States when cities were being burned in New Jersey and stuff. Terrible time. And it was a time of hippies. We saw our first hippies and that was terribly exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Europe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Europe. And eventually we got back to New York, which was my home. And Peace Corps had a little newsletter with employment opportunities for returning volunteers. And my husband applied and he got Philadelphia, and so we went there. Well, I was planning our wedding, so I just did a little bit of subbing in Philly, but not much. But we had a year teaching. He was teaching there. We got married in Philadelphia. We went to Temple University that summer and by then this job opportunities paper became a little more formal, I think. And the state of Hawaii was recruiting teachers through that.\n\nAnd I was not an education major. They said, it's okay, you come and teach and you'll be in a regular school, you'll be supervised by a principal, you know. But we will give you your tenure after two years if everything went okay. And so I taught in Hawaii on that certification, never having had an education, formal education course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you end up, what level did you teach when you came to Hawaii?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was doing seventh and eighth grade English, and then I went back to the University of Hawaii in Honolulu and got my master's. Finally, I'm taking education courses in counseling. And so I spent the rest of my career as a counselor. I was doing seventh, eighth, and ninth, tenth grades at different times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, your college degree had been?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.46968452945952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Europe. And eventually we got back to New York, which was my home. And Peace Corps had a little newsletter with employment opportunities for returning volunteers. And my husband applied and he got Philadelphia, and so we went there. Well, I was planning our wedding, so I just did a little bit of subbing in Philly, but not much. But we had a year teaching. He was teaching there. We got married in Philadelphia. We went to Temple University that summer and by then this job opportunities paper became a little more formal, I think. And the state of Hawaii was recruiting teachers through that.\n\nAnd I was not an education major. They said, it's okay, you come and teach and you'll be in a regular school, you'll be supervised by a principal, you know. But we will give you your tenure after two years if everything went okay. And so I taught in Hawaii on that certification, never having had an education, formal education course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you end up, what level did you teach when you came to Hawaii?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was doing seventh and eighth grade English, and then I went back to the University of Hawaii in Honolulu and got my master's. Finally, I'm taking education courses in counseling. And so I spent the rest of my career as a counselor. I was doing seventh, eighth, and ninth, tenth grades at different times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, your college degree had been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A history major."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "History. So you went from history to education and the Peace Corps, and then that led you to your career?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 26.077427254955023, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was doing seventh and eighth grade English, and then I went back to the University of Hawaii in Honolulu and got my master's. Finally, I'm taking education courses in counseling. And so I spent the rest of my career as a counselor. I was doing seventh, eighth, and ninth, tenth grades at different times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, your college degree had been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A history major."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "History. So you went from history to education and the Peace Corps, and then that led you to your career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, essentially, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any regrets about the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 25.641585838838914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A history major."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "History. So you went from history to education and the Peace Corps, and then that led you to your career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, essentially, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any regrets about the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no. None at all. It was, I tell my son, the most fun period of my life, my whole life. Because we were all about the same age, the volunteers. The ones who were up the road would come down to Harper for the weekend and there'd be a dance at school or a dance in church or in a bar. And we would go and dance all night, sweating, sweating, sweat dripping off our chin, having such a great time. And, and it wasn't, um. There were a couple of boy-girl relationships, but for most part it was friends and all going through the same, you know, experience. I guess we all missed home at times. I don't remember missing home at all. I thought it was wonderful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much, um, how much influence do you think you had on the local population in terms of helping them understand American culture, which is the second goal of the Peace Corps? Your first goal was providing a service, which was your education."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.06384063228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We both did. We got up to where my husband was and my son is named Saa Tamba Ginlack. Saa means firstborn son. Tamba means second born son. So we used to joke that we had to stop at one kid because we had the two names in one person. And we just liked the sound of Saa Tamba. It rolled. So we did go back to the village that Bob was in and the, the reason why we gave him the name Tamba is the chief's name was Tamba Taylor. He was later the member of the tribal community that was in President Sirleaf's cabinet, when that woman Sirleaf became the first woman president of Liberia maybe ten years ago, I think it was. So he was the chief of the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of the village that your husband was in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And we had to cross this little bridge. And then we came into the village and the chief came to the car yelling, where's this Tamba boy? Where's this Tamba boy? So we must have written to him or saying that we were coming with our son. And oh, we were treated really nicely and it was really great. And I got back to Harper. We stayed with a volunteer and we then went. We were in Monrovia for the longest time and we camped out in the front yard of a volunteer and he in fact lent us $100 till our money check came from the States. Um. So we were there probably two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you got down into Harper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And the, I remember we went to the Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia and we went to the Peace Corps office. And the Peace Corps nurse, her name was Comfort Butler, and she was still there. So we saw her. Monrovia had movie theaters. It had one big Western hotel, the Intercontinental, and we met some of the volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you ended up coming home. What did you do with the bus?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.4042673692000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And we had to cross this little bridge. And then we came into the village and the chief came to the car yelling, where's this Tamba boy? Where's this Tamba boy? So we must have written to him or saying that we were coming with our son. And oh, we were treated really nicely and it was really great. And I got back to Harper. We stayed with a volunteer and we then went. We were in Monrovia for the longest time and we camped out in the front yard of a volunteer and he in fact lent us $100 till our money check came from the States. Um. So we were there probably two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you got down into Harper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And the, I remember we went to the Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia and we went to the Peace Corps office. And the Peace Corps nurse, her name was Comfort Butler, and she was still there. So we saw her. Monrovia had movie theaters. It had one big Western hotel, the Intercontinental, and we met some of the volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you ended up coming home. What did you do with the bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to, we put it on a ship that stopped in Monrovia and took us to the Canary Islands. Got off in the Canary Islands, stayed there a month. Put it on another ship to Spain and continued our travels around Europe. Got as far east as Istanbul. People in Turkey are very nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you bring the bus back home or did you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6714081880000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And the, I remember we went to the Peace Corps hostel in Monrovia and we went to the Peace Corps office. And the Peace Corps nurse, her name was Comfort Butler, and she was still there. So we saw her. Monrovia had movie theaters. It had one big Western hotel, the Intercontinental, and we met some of the volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you ended up coming home. What did you do with the bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to, we put it on a ship that stopped in Monrovia and took us to the Canary Islands. Got off in the Canary Islands, stayed there a month. Put it on another ship to Spain and continued our travels around Europe. Got as far east as Istanbul. People in Turkey are very nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you bring the bus back home or did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, yes. We shipped it out of Amsterdam to New York and picked it up in New York and drove it across country. And a friend helped us put it on a ship to Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. That bus."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9682313200000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to, we put it on a ship that stopped in Monrovia and took us to the Canary Islands. Got off in the Canary Islands, stayed there a month. Put it on another ship to Spain and continued our travels around Europe. Got as far east as Istanbul. People in Turkey are very nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you bring the bus back home or did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, yes. We shipped it out of Amsterdam to New York and picked it up in New York and drove it across country. And a friend helped us put it on a ship to Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. That bus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Got around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did some traveling."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.2980348000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, yes. We shipped it out of Amsterdam to New York and picked it up in New York and drove it across country. And a friend helped us put it on a ship to Hawaii."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. That bus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Got around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did some traveling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. So that was a long trip, then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5533720000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Got around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did some traveling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. So that was a long trip, then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably a year and a half, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you incorporated any kind of third goal activities since you've been back in the United States?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.8370800000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow. So that was a long trip, then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably a year and a half, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you incorporated any kind of third goal activities since you've been back in the United States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What's the third goal?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Teaching, uh, teaching Americans about your experience in the Liberian culture."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0412000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably a year and a half, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you incorporated any kind of third goal activities since you've been back in the United States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What's the third goal?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Teaching, uh, teaching Americans about your experience in the Liberian culture."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave a couple of talks at school. I remember once to students, once to my faculty. But that's the only formal thing that I can think of. But like I say, all my pictures were on slides and after a few years in Hawaii, they all turned purple. I have no pictures of Liberia from, from my sides and my husband's also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, um, so overall, it sounds like you had a very positive experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2680000000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What's the third goal?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Teaching, uh, teaching Americans about your experience in the Liberian culture."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave a couple of talks at school. I remember once to students, once to my faculty. But that's the only formal thing that I can think of. But like I say, all my pictures were on slides and after a few years in Hawaii, they all turned purple. I have no pictures of Liberia from, from my sides and my husband's also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, um, so overall, it sounds like you had a very positive experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very. I just, I thought it was so much fun and I developed such independence for myself. I think I made a good impression. I mean, I'm a friendly person. I talk, I like to laugh. You know, I like to dance with him. Oh, I remember one Liberian man, older man. He was a judge at a dance and he asked me to dance a cha cha. And I said I didn't know how to cha cha. Oh, he was such a good dancer. He could just steer you anyway, you know? He knew, I became a cha cha dancer. Yeah, it was, I only have happy memories. Except for that one night when I thought I would have to teach algebra."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you actually left the country, was there any kind of ceremony? I mean, how did you feel about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.52, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave a couple of talks at school. I remember once to students, once to my faculty. But that's the only formal thing that I can think of. But like I say, all my pictures were on slides and after a few years in Hawaii, they all turned purple. I have no pictures of Liberia from, from my sides and my husband's also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, um, so overall, it sounds like you had a very positive experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very. I just, I thought it was so much fun and I developed such independence for myself. I think I made a good impression. I mean, I'm a friendly person. I talk, I like to laugh. You know, I like to dance with him. Oh, I remember one Liberian man, older man. He was a judge at a dance and he asked me to dance a cha cha. And I said I didn't know how to cha cha. Oh, he was such a good dancer. He could just steer you anyway, you know? He knew, I became a cha cha dancer. Yeah, it was, I only have happy memories. Except for that one night when I thought I would have to teach algebra."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you actually left the country, was there any kind of ceremony? I mean, how did you feel about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The school that my girlfriend was at that was a regular school had a program for all the volunteers. Oh, sad, sad, sad. We were all standing up on the stage. Oh, I was really sad to be leaving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you kept in touch with anybody from the country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The school that my girlfriend was at that was a regular school had a program for all the volunteers. Oh, sad, sad, sad. We were all standing up on the stage. Oh, I was really sad to be leaving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you kept in touch with anybody from the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes, I'm pretty good about. From the country?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From Liberia. The one girl who was my house, uh, lived with me for the year. She was, uh, she came back. She came to the States, got an education in the States. Unfortunately had a terrible stroke and can't talk any longer. But I've still visited her in Philadelphia and kept in touch with them, her husband, who is Liberian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've kept in touch with other volunteers it sounds like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes, I'm pretty good about. From the country?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From Liberia. The one girl who was my house, uh, lived with me for the year. She was, uh, she came back. She came to the States, got an education in the States. Unfortunately had a terrible stroke and can't talk any longer. But I've still visited her in Philadelphia and kept in touch with them, her husband, who is Liberian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've kept in touch with other volunteers it sounds like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yeah. And the Canadian lady who lived next door to me, she just came to visit last year and, um. Yeah. Lots of volunteers I've kept in touch with. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, before we wrap this up, is there anything else that you can think of you want to add?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00143:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From Liberia. The one girl who was my house, uh, lived with me for the year. She was, uh, she came back. She came to the States, got an education in the States. Unfortunately had a terrible stroke and can't talk any longer. But I've still visited her in Philadelphia and kept in touch with them, her husband, who is Liberian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've kept in touch with other volunteers it sounds like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yeah. And the Canadian lady who lived next door to me, she just came to visit last year and, um. Yeah. Lots of volunteers I've kept in touch with. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, before we wrap this up, is there anything else that you can think of you want to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Best years of my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's a, that's a good endorsement for the Peace Corps. Thank you for your time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00888:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 63, "return_to_go": 452.98822320000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do I get a prize?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you get your transcript when all this is over with. You have work to do when this is over with. If you want to write a book here’s a good start."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just checking, lollipop or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You get a cup of coffee."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve already got a cup of coffee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s start by talking about your background and your education, and what brought you to work for NASA."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.43751562895124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That would be September 1962. And I would be a high school teacher of American history. Eleventh grade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were a teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Thomaston, Georgia, and I grew up in the south in various places. Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a big family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.708350698834712, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Thomaston, Georgia, and I grew up in the south in various places. Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a big family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm the oldest of three, my brother and sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did your family do? What did your parents do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.120389665371903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Thomaston, Georgia, and I grew up in the south in various places. Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a big family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm the oldest of three, my brother and sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did your family do? What did your parents do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother worked in a bank typically as a teller, and my father was a writer and editor, mostly freelance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a family, did you travel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.022655183746558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm the oldest of three, my brother and sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did your family do? What did your parents do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother worked in a bank typically as a teller, and my father was a writer and editor, mostly freelance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a family, did you travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My earliest recollections, in fact, are travel on the train during the Second World War because my father was too old to be drafted and with already two children. So he was a civilian involved with the production of armaments and he worked for Bill Farmer or Bill Aircraft and traveled from Bill Factory to build a factory up and down the East Coast. We got all the way to upstate New York, our family on the train. So my earliest recollections are of walking up and down the aisles of the train, chatting with the other children of the other families and the soldiers and so forth and so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Happy memories yesterday and the international travel room?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.914061315273953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother worked in a bank typically as a teller, and my father was a writer and editor, mostly freelance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a family, did you travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My earliest recollections, in fact, are travel on the train during the Second World War because my father was too old to be drafted and with already two children. So he was a civilian involved with the production of armaments and he worked for Bill Farmer or Bill Aircraft and traveled from Bill Factory to build a factory up and down the East Coast. We got all the way to upstate New York, our family on the train. So my earliest recollections are of walking up and down the aisles of the train, chatting with the other children of the other families and the soldiers and so forth and so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Happy memories yesterday and the international travel room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a family, no. And for myself, no. Before Peace Corps, I don't think except for trips to the Bahamas, maybe I had been outside the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you went to school and you went you went to high school."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.904512572526615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My earliest recollections, in fact, are travel on the train during the Second World War because my father was too old to be drafted and with already two children. So he was a civilian involved with the production of armaments and he worked for Bill Farmer or Bill Aircraft and traveled from Bill Factory to build a factory up and down the East Coast. We got all the way to upstate New York, our family on the train. So my earliest recollections are of walking up and down the aisles of the train, chatting with the other children of the other families and the soldiers and so forth and so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Happy memories yesterday and the international travel room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a family, no. And for myself, no. Before Peace Corps, I don't think except for trips to the Bahamas, maybe I had been outside the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you went to school and you went you went to high school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Went to high school in several different places in the south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you study a foreign language in high school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.782791747251794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a family, no. And for myself, no. Before Peace Corps, I don't think except for trips to the Bahamas, maybe I had been outside the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you went to school and you went you went to high school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Went to high school in several different places in the south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you study a foreign language in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had two years of Latin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. I guess that's a foreign language, but it's"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.758657496946437, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Went to high school in several different places in the south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you study a foreign language in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had two years of Latin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. I guess that's a foreign language, but it's"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not one you speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get involved in extracurricular activities, volunteer work as a high school student?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.620730552162708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had two years of Latin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. I guess that's a foreign language, but it's"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not one you speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get involved in extracurricular activities, volunteer work as a high school student?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I played basketball and we were state champs. Two years running. We had the state high score. Good two years running. Now, this is half court women thought to be weak and delicate during those days. We're not permitted in basketball to pay for court or so we played three on a side. Oh, and I'm short, as you can see. So I did not play on the side with the state high scorer. She played on the other side and I was on defense and I was an excellent pine sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know what kind system."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.467478391291898, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not one you speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get involved in extracurricular activities, volunteer work as a high school student?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I played basketball and we were state champs. Two years running. We had the state high score. Good two years running. Now, this is half court women thought to be weak and delicate during those days. We're not permitted in basketball to pay for court or so we played three on a side. Oh, and I'm short, as you can see. So I did not play on the side with the state high scorer. She played on the other side and I was on defense and I was an excellent pine sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know what kind system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there are pine brothers and sisters, meaning you come off the bench, Phyllis, you don't start."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Revealing something about myself. And then you went to college. Were you the first in your family to go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.297198212546553, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I played basketball and we were state champs. Two years running. We had the state high score. Good two years running. Now, this is half court women thought to be weak and delicate during those days. We're not permitted in basketball to pay for court or so we played three on a side. Oh, and I'm short, as you can see. So I did not play on the side with the state high scorer. She played on the other side and I was on defense and I was an excellent pine sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know what kind system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there are pine brothers and sisters, meaning you come off the bench, Phyllis, you don't start."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Revealing something about myself. And then you went to college. Were you the first in your family to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no. I have two grandmothers who were college girls, both graduated and both attended and graduated in the nineteenth century. So my father was a college graduate and no, I was not the first college graduate, my friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, very exciting to come from a family with such a history and entering college. What did you envision as a career?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.219109125051725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there are pine brothers and sisters, meaning you come off the bench, Phyllis, you don't start."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Revealing something about myself. And then you went to college. Were you the first in your family to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no. I have two grandmothers who were college girls, both graduated and both attended and graduated in the nineteenth century. So my father was a college graduate and no, I was not the first college graduate, my friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, very exciting to come from a family with such a history and entering college. What did you envision as a career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wow. I have no idea if I have any doubt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had a yeah. Yeah. If anything,"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.243454583390806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no, no. I have two grandmothers who were college girls, both graduated and both attended and graduated in the nineteenth century. So my father was a college graduate and no, I was not the first college graduate, my friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, very exciting to come from a family with such a history and entering college. What did you envision as a career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wow. I have no idea if I have any doubt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had a yeah. Yeah. If anything,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked chemistry in high school and hoped to continue with chemistry, but did not have a good mathematics background in high school and couldn't eventually carry the computation aspects of chemistry very far. So I think I probably at that point decided maybe not to major in something. And then, of course, the powers that be caught up with me and said, well, you've got to pick something, and what did you pick? I think I probably picked social science, something as broad as as the system allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Not a bad idea for an undergraduate degree. And did you study languages in college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.381616203767562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wow. I have no idea if I have any doubt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had a yeah. Yeah. If anything,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked chemistry in high school and hoped to continue with chemistry, but did not have a good mathematics background in high school and couldn't eventually carry the computation aspects of chemistry very far. So I think I probably at that point decided maybe not to major in something. And then, of course, the powers that be caught up with me and said, well, you've got to pick something, and what did you pick? I think I probably picked social science, something as broad as as the system allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Not a bad idea for an undergraduate degree. And did you study languages in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you left college speaking English very well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.646240226408402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I liked chemistry in high school and hoped to continue with chemistry, but did not have a good mathematics background in high school and couldn't eventually carry the computation aspects of chemistry very far. So I think I probably at that point decided maybe not to major in something. And then, of course, the powers that be caught up with me and said, well, you've got to pick something, and what did you pick? I think I probably picked social science, something as broad as as the system allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Not a bad idea for an undergraduate degree. And did you study languages in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you left college speaking English very well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do in the summers as a college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.829155807120447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you left college speaking English very well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do in the summers as a college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Always working, sometimes with one job, sometimes two jobs. And I think one summer I had three jobs. And the the logistics of that were quite daunting to be on time and get from one to the other, to the other to the other. I worked at a dry cleaners, I remember at the front with the heat of the dry cleaning machine on my back on the and then I talked swimming. I started out working in high school as a runner for the Chamber of Commerce, which was on the little square in the town where we where we lived. So from about the age of 14 on, I was working after school and just as a gopher, anything the Chamber of Commerce wanted, I would do it right. So I learned to do I learned to be very versatile and learn to do lots of things. So my and always worked during college as well, working for one of the professors, doing research or or whatever needed doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.810173119022718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do in the summers as a college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Always working, sometimes with one job, sometimes two jobs. And I think one summer I had three jobs. And the the logistics of that were quite daunting to be on time and get from one to the other, to the other to the other. I worked at a dry cleaners, I remember at the front with the heat of the dry cleaning machine on my back on the and then I talked swimming. I started out working in high school as a runner for the Chamber of Commerce, which was on the little square in the town where we where we lived. So from about the age of 14 on, I was working after school and just as a gopher, anything the Chamber of Commerce wanted, I would do it right. So I learned to do I learned to be very versatile and learn to do lots of things. So my and always worked during college as well, working for one of the professors, doing research or or whatever needed doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Undergraduate at Florida State. And then my Masters at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was before Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 10.900192354469686, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Always working, sometimes with one job, sometimes two jobs. And I think one summer I had three jobs. And the the logistics of that were quite daunting to be on time and get from one to the other, to the other to the other. I worked at a dry cleaners, I remember at the front with the heat of the dry cleaning machine on my back on the and then I talked swimming. I started out working in high school as a runner for the Chamber of Commerce, which was on the little square in the town where we where we lived. So from about the age of 14 on, I was working after school and just as a gopher, anything the Chamber of Commerce wanted, I would do it right. So I learned to do I learned to be very versatile and learn to do lots of things. So my and always worked during college as well, working for one of the professors, doing research or or whatever needed doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Undergraduate at Florida State. And then my Masters at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was before Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No undergraduate was before Peace Corps and graduate was post."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so we're in Florida State now and somehow you hear about the Peace Corps. How did you become aware of Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.444658171632985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Undergraduate at Florida State. And then my Masters at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was before Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No undergraduate was before Peace Corps and graduate was post."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so we're in Florida State now and somehow you hear about the Peace Corps. How did you become aware of Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had while I was teaching in Fort Lauderdale, applied I had taken the foreign service exam and passed it. My interest originally was the Foreign Service and the Department of State. Yeah. And I went through a number of interviews and I lived in Fort Lauderdale and the interviews were in Miami with various Department of State personnel, and they were really not ready to for women to enter it even on the first rung of the ladder in the diplomatic service, which is what I was interested in. Yes. They finally offered me a job as an administrative assistant in the Department of State office there in Miami. And as an alternative, they offered me a job working for the NSA I and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then national security."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.049620190703316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No undergraduate was before Peace Corps and graduate was post."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so we're in Florida State now and somehow you hear about the Peace Corps. How did you become aware of Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had while I was teaching in Fort Lauderdale, applied I had taken the foreign service exam and passed it. My interest originally was the Foreign Service and the Department of State. Yeah. And I went through a number of interviews and I lived in Fort Lauderdale and the interviews were in Miami with various Department of State personnel, and they were really not ready to for women to enter it even on the first rung of the ladder in the diplomatic service, which is what I was interested in. Yes. They finally offered me a job as an administrative assistant in the Department of State office there in Miami. And as an alternative, they offered me a job working for the NSA I and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then national security."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because I was not particularly inclined toward spying. And so I turned down the NSA and I turned down the administrative assistant job for the Department of State. I saw myself as, you know, being a diplomat and representing my country. And what they had me pigeonholed in was not attractive. So as an alternative, I applied to the Peace Corps thinking this will be an opportunity for me to serve my country and go abroad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Exactly. And you did this right out of college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.721800211892574, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had while I was teaching in Fort Lauderdale, applied I had taken the foreign service exam and passed it. My interest originally was the Foreign Service and the Department of State. Yeah. And I went through a number of interviews and I lived in Fort Lauderdale and the interviews were in Miami with various Department of State personnel, and they were really not ready to for women to enter it even on the first rung of the ladder in the diplomatic service, which is what I was interested in. Yes. They finally offered me a job as an administrative assistant in the Department of State office there in Miami. And as an alternative, they offered me a job working for the NSA I and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then national security."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because I was not particularly inclined toward spying. And so I turned down the NSA and I turned down the administrative assistant job for the Department of State. I saw myself as, you know, being a diplomat and representing my country. And what they had me pigeonholed in was not attractive. So as an alternative, I applied to the Peace Corps thinking this will be an opportunity for me to serve my country and go abroad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Exactly. And you did this right out of college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no. Out of college. I got a job teaching high school American history in Fort Lauderdale, and that's what I was doing. And you asked me what I was doing a year before. Yeah, that's right. You did say that you do the same job, same job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many years were you teaching?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.357555790991748, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because I was not particularly inclined toward spying. And so I turned down the NSA and I turned down the administrative assistant job for the Department of State. I saw myself as, you know, being a diplomat and representing my country. And what they had me pigeonholed in was not attractive. So as an alternative, I applied to the Peace Corps thinking this will be an opportunity for me to serve my country and go abroad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Exactly. And you did this right out of college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no. Out of college. I got a job teaching high school American history in Fort Lauderdale, and that's what I was doing. And you asked me what I was doing a year before. Yeah, that's right. You did say that you do the same job, same job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many years were you teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I taught three and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three and a half years before you applied to the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.06395087887972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, no. Out of college. I got a job teaching high school American history in Fort Lauderdale, and that's what I was doing. And you asked me what I was doing a year before. Yeah, that's right. You did say that you do the same job, same job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many years were you teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I taught three and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three and a half years before you applied to the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, probably applying to the Peace Corps while I was a teacher. And going through the whole process of supplying the letters of recommendation, you were you needed ten in those days. And I was hard pressed to come up with ten. Yes. You could reliably be counted on to say something positive about me. And the toughest one was to ask my mother because she would be my my worst critic, my strongest. But she wrote a wonderful book, even though she had doubts about my going overseas. And so you would once you were accepted, then you would in those days get invitations to various programs. Yes. Yes. And. I would read the material and I wasn't, for whatever reason, all that interested in what they were laying in front of it, because I had"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the options?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.737723198755244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I taught three and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Three and a half years before you applied to the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, probably applying to the Peace Corps while I was a teacher. And going through the whole process of supplying the letters of recommendation, you were you needed ten in those days. And I was hard pressed to come up with ten. Yes. You could reliably be counted on to say something positive about me. And the toughest one was to ask my mother because she would be my my worst critic, my strongest. But she wrote a wonderful book, even though she had doubts about my going overseas. And so you would once you were accepted, then you would in those days get invitations to various programs. Yes. Yes. And. I would read the material and I wasn't, for whatever reason, all that interested in what they were laying in front of it, because I had"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the options?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were, again, had me pigeonholed as a classroom teacher. And I had been a classroom teacher for three and a half years and I wanted to move on. I was ready for a change. Yeah, but all of these were basically classroom pretty traditional situations and even a television program. And in Colombia was still basically a classroom situation. So when I was invited to a public health education program, I said, hey, I can use my teaching school, that I can put the classroom behind me. And that, in fact, is the way it worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you finally accepted the invitation to train for the"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.486359109728049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, probably applying to the Peace Corps while I was a teacher. And going through the whole process of supplying the letters of recommendation, you were you needed ten in those days. And I was hard pressed to come up with ten. Yes. You could reliably be counted on to say something positive about me. And the toughest one was to ask my mother because she would be my my worst critic, my strongest. But she wrote a wonderful book, even though she had doubts about my going overseas. And so you would once you were accepted, then you would in those days get invitations to various programs. Yes. Yes. And. I would read the material and I wasn't, for whatever reason, all that interested in what they were laying in front of it, because I had"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the options?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were, again, had me pigeonholed as a classroom teacher. And I had been a classroom teacher for three and a half years and I wanted to move on. I was ready for a change. Yeah, but all of these were basically classroom pretty traditional situations and even a television program. And in Colombia was still basically a classroom situation. So when I was invited to a public health education program, I said, hey, I can use my teaching school, that I can put the classroom behind me. And that, in fact, is the way it worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you finally accepted the invitation to train for the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Public health education in Bolivia. I had to look up where Bolivia was. I didn't know where it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many of us had to do that. And what did you and your family, your mother, you said, was somewhat skeptical about your your decision to do this and other people in your family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.31817678858672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were, again, had me pigeonholed as a classroom teacher. And I had been a classroom teacher for three and a half years and I wanted to move on. I was ready for a change. Yeah, but all of these were basically classroom pretty traditional situations and even a television program. And in Colombia was still basically a classroom situation. So when I was invited to a public health education program, I said, hey, I can use my teaching school, that I can put the classroom behind me. And that, in fact, is the way it worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you finally accepted the invitation to train for the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Public health education in Bolivia. I had to look up where Bolivia was. I didn't know where it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many of us had to do that. And what did you and your family, your mother, you said, was somewhat skeptical about your your decision to do this and other people in your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my mother was probably the most supportive in the end. I think my father, who had challenges as far as mental illness was concerned, was definitely not supportive. But no, I think my mother in the end was the most silently in my corner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And then you said you had two siblings."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.242418653985245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Public health education in Bolivia. I had to look up where Bolivia was. I didn't know where it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many of us had to do that. And what did you and your family, your mother, you said, was somewhat skeptical about your your decision to do this and other people in your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my mother was probably the most supportive in the end. I think my father, who had challenges as far as mental illness was concerned, was definitely not supportive. But no, I think my mother in the end was the most silently in my corner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And then you said you had two siblings."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. And I have no idea what they thought. So my brother was willing to take care of my car while I was gone. That was fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine that. Taking care of it means using it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.269354059983606, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my mother was probably the most supportive in the end. I think my father, who had challenges as far as mental illness was concerned, was definitely not supportive. But no, I think my mother in the end was the most silently in my corner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And then you said you had two siblings."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. And I have no idea what they thought. So my brother was willing to take care of my car while I was gone. That was fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine that. Taking care of it means using it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you go off to training and where where do you go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.188171177759562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. And I have no idea what they thought. So my brother was willing to take care of my car while I was gone. That was fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine that. Taking care of it means using it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you go off to training and where where do you go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "University of Washington School of Public Health in Seattle and Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, quite a different part of the country from the south and southeast. And when did training start?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.097967975288402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you go off to training and where where do you go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "University of Washington School of Public Health in Seattle and Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, quite a different part of the country from the south and southeast. And when did training start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "September 1963, ‘63."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, were you the first group to train for Bolivia or had there been"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.108853305876002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "University of Washington School of Public Health in Seattle and Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, quite a different part of the country from the south and southeast. And when did training start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "September 1963, ‘63."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, were you the first group to train for Bolivia or had there been"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was Bolivia V."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bolivia V, one of the very early groups. Do you believe"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.232059228751114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "September 1963, ‘63."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, were you the first group to train for Bolivia or had there been"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was Bolivia V."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bolivia V, one of the very early groups. Do you believe"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was the first public health education group for Bolivia. But certainly by no means not the first group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not the first bunch of Peace Corps volunteers. Do you remember first reporting to training and in what you would call of showing up, meeting the other trainees?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.48006580972346, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was Bolivia V."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bolivia V, one of the very early groups. Do you believe"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was the first public health education group for Bolivia. But certainly by no means not the first group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not the first bunch of Peace Corps volunteers. Do you remember first reporting to training and in what you would call of showing up, meeting the other trainees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's that to me was the best part of Peace Corps service, was getting to meet people from other parts of the country who had different experiences, different kinds of growing up. And that process started right there in Seattle. So, yes, I don't remember all the bags around the room and everybody standing around, you know, wondering, you know, who everybody else in the group was and how this was going to go and and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, yes, I do. Was it a large group or how many were involved?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.311184233026065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was the first public health education group for Bolivia. But certainly by no means not the first group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not the first bunch of Peace Corps volunteers. Do you remember first reporting to training and in what you would call of showing up, meeting the other trainees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's that to me was the best part of Peace Corps service, was getting to meet people from other parts of the country who had different experiences, different kinds of growing up. And that process started right there in Seattle. So, yes, I don't remember all the bags around the room and everybody standing around, you know, wondering, you know, who everybody else in the group was and how this was going to go and and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, yes, I do. Was it a large group or how many were involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, small. By the time we went to Bolivia, I think we were probably no more than twenty one or twenty two and maybe we started out at about twenty eight or nine. And Bolivia V and Bolivia VI were in tandem with the same training program, the same mission in country. One started in September of ‘63, the other one started in January ‘64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they learn from whatever mistakes they made with you in training both men and women. Any married couples?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.234649147806739, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's that to me was the best part of Peace Corps service, was getting to meet people from other parts of the country who had different experiences, different kinds of growing up. And that process started right there in Seattle. So, yes, I don't remember all the bags around the room and everybody standing around, you know, wondering, you know, who everybody else in the group was and how this was going to go and and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, yes, I do. Was it a large group or how many were involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, small. By the time we went to Bolivia, I think we were probably no more than twenty one or twenty two and maybe we started out at about twenty eight or nine. And Bolivia V and Bolivia VI were in tandem with the same training program, the same mission in country. One started in September of ‘63, the other one started in January ‘64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they learn from whatever mistakes they made with you in training both men and women. Any married couples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. At least one, if not more than one in my group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did some of these people have training already in public health or in any kind of health service?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.26072127534082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, small. By the time we went to Bolivia, I think we were probably no more than twenty one or twenty two and maybe we started out at about twenty eight or nine. And Bolivia V and Bolivia VI were in tandem with the same training program, the same mission in country. One started in September of ‘63, the other one started in January ‘64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they learn from whatever mistakes they made with you in training both men and women. Any married couples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. At least one, if not more than one in my group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did some of these people have training already in public health or in any kind of health service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the people were medical professionals, health care professionals, hospital professionals, nurses, lab techs, medics. Hospital administrators."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like these these are not young kids who"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.178579194823135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. At least one, if not more than one in my group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did some of these people have training already in public health or in any kind of health service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the people were medical professionals, health care professionals, hospital professionals, nurses, lab techs, medics. Hospital administrators."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like these these are not young kids who"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are nurses for the most part. I was twenty four when I reported to Seattle in September 1963. And for the most part, everybody in the group like me had worked since graduating from college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, yes. Yes. And you, of course, put your teaching skills right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.19842132758126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the people were medical professionals, health care professionals, hospital professionals, nurses, lab techs, medics. Hospital administrators."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like these these are not young kids who"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are nurses for the most part. I was twenty four when I reported to Seattle in September 1963. And for the most part, everybody in the group like me had worked since graduating from college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, yes. Yes. And you, of course, put your teaching skills right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a few others like me who had been teachers teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you what was the scene like at the university there? Did you stay in college dormitories?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.998245919534733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are nurses for the most part. I was twenty four when I reported to Seattle in September 1963. And for the most part, everybody in the group like me had worked since graduating from college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, yes. Yes. And you, of course, put your teaching skills right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a few others like me who had been teachers teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you what was the scene like at the university there? Did you stay in college dormitories?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we stayed in college dormitories and work and walked to the various classes. So everything was right there on the campus and. You had the feeling from the very first day about the way the program was managed, the administrators, the teachers, the faculty, all from the School of Public Health at the University of Washington of competence. I mean, they were outstanding, wonderful, outstanding people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And your classes then you took classes. Well, what sorts of academic classes did you have?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.664717688371925, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a few others like me who had been teachers teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you what was the scene like at the university there? Did you stay in college dormitories?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we stayed in college dormitories and work and walked to the various classes. So everything was right there on the campus and. You had the feeling from the very first day about the way the program was managed, the administrators, the teachers, the faculty, all from the School of Public Health at the University of Washington of competence. I mean, they were outstanding, wonderful, outstanding people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And your classes then you took classes. Well, what sorts of academic classes did you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they're looking at health care and disease from a public health perspective, which is a different perspective than the way most health care people are trained in the United States. So they spend a lot of time on demographics, on the transmission of disease. And, of course, in a Bolivian setting, nobody, nobody in our group had had any exposure to any of the diseases that were discussed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was all new learning about the diseases themselves?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.405241875968806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we stayed in college dormitories and work and walked to the various classes. So everything was right there on the campus and. You had the feeling from the very first day about the way the program was managed, the administrators, the teachers, the faculty, all from the School of Public Health at the University of Washington of competence. I mean, they were outstanding, wonderful, outstanding people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And your classes then you took classes. Well, what sorts of academic classes did you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they're looking at health care and disease from a public health perspective, which is a different perspective than the way most health care people are trained in the United States. So they spend a lot of time on demographics, on the transmission of disease. And, of course, in a Bolivian setting, nobody, nobody in our group had had any exposure to any of the diseases that were discussed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was all new learning about the diseases themselves?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, malaria. Yellow fever. Plague. Diphtheria. Oh yeah. These things happen. So from the beginning I was on level ground and all of the health care."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes. Very good."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.228046528854229, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they're looking at health care and disease from a public health perspective, which is a different perspective than the way most health care people are trained in the United States. So they spend a lot of time on demographics, on the transmission of disease. And, of course, in a Bolivian setting, nobody, nobody in our group had had any exposure to any of the diseases that were discussed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was all new learning about the diseases themselves?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, malaria. Yellow fever. Plague. Diphtheria. Oh yeah. These things happen. So from the beginning I was on level ground and all of the health care."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes. Very good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so right away people you start thinking about. This is something I want to do. I mean, when they start talking about bubonic plague, those extra tension,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a vaccination against the plague in Bolivia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.142273920949142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, malaria. Yellow fever. Plague. Diphtheria. Oh yeah. These things happen. So from the beginning I was on level ground and all of the health care."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes. Very good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so right away people you start thinking about. This is something I want to do. I mean, when they start talking about bubonic plague, those extra tension,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a vaccination against the plague in Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Simply put the bodies up in the trees to try to get them off the ground because they believed that if they left, if they buried them, then somehow whatever it was that was causing disease wouldn't be transmitted through the water or the soil to the living. So they would put the cadavers up, not retreat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, in terms of your own protection, were you able to Peace Corps training usually involves more vaccinations than you'd ever want to get."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.158082134387936, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so right away people you start thinking about. This is something I want to do. I mean, when they start talking about bubonic plague, those extra tension,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a vaccination against the plague in Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Simply put the bodies up in the trees to try to get them off the ground because they believed that if they left, if they buried them, then somehow whatever it was that was causing disease wouldn't be transmitted through the water or the soil to the living. So they would put the cadavers up, not retreat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, in terms of your own protection, were you able to Peace Corps training usually involves more vaccinations than you'd ever want to get."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one cannot imagine that or count or you don't even want to count."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I counted twenty one sticks with a needle."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.064535704875484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Simply put the bodies up in the trees to try to get them off the ground because they believed that if they left, if they buried them, then somehow whatever it was that was causing disease wouldn't be transmitted through the water or the soil to the living. So they would put the cadavers up, not retreat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, in terms of your own protection, were you able to Peace Corps training usually involves more vaccinations than you'd ever want to get."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one cannot imagine that or count or you don't even want to count."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I counted twenty one sticks with a needle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember there were so many. And of course, this is the early days of the Peace Corps. And I would go and they would vaccinate you on the chance that on the theory that you and lots of times they weren't sure about the outcomes of the vaccination issue. That's what they would give it to you anyway. Yeah. So I think we my yellow card, my WHL yellow card just went on and on and on, page after page after page."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And as part of training, of course, that would have been Spanish."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.071706338750538, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one cannot imagine that or count or you don't even want to count."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I counted twenty one sticks with a needle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember there were so many. And of course, this is the early days of the Peace Corps. And I would go and they would vaccinate you on the chance that on the theory that you and lots of times they weren't sure about the outcomes of the vaccination issue. That's what they would give it to you anyway. Yeah. So I think we my yellow card, my WHL yellow card just went on and on and on, page after page after page."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And as part of training, of course, that would have been Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. Outstanding core of teachers of Spanish. Oh, I discovered I had a good ear and maybe that's because I had played the piano and been around people who were musicians and my father saying I am. And but I discovered I had a pretty good ear and all the teachers were excellent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had you you had your two years of Latin to help you, to get you started on the grammar."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.19078482083393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember there were so many. And of course, this is the early days of the Peace Corps. And I would go and they would vaccinate you on the chance that on the theory that you and lots of times they weren't sure about the outcomes of the vaccination issue. That's what they would give it to you anyway. Yeah. So I think we my yellow card, my WHL yellow card just went on and on and on, page after page after page."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And as part of training, of course, that would have been Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. Outstanding core of teachers of Spanish. Oh, I discovered I had a good ear and maybe that's because I had played the piano and been around people who were musicians and my father saying I am. And but I discovered I had a pretty good ear and all the teachers were excellent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had you you had your two years of Latin to help you, to get you started on the grammar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But have happily they were not teaching those grammar or anything like that or teaching as they speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how many hours a day of language do"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.323094245371033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. Outstanding core of teachers of Spanish. Oh, I discovered I had a good ear and maybe that's because I had played the piano and been around people who were musicians and my father saying I am. And but I discovered I had a pretty good ear and all the teachers were excellent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had you you had your two years of Latin to help you, to get you started on the grammar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But have happily they were not teaching those grammar or anything like that or teaching as they speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how many hours a day of language do"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe we had six hours a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That is intense."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 12.581215828190036, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But have happily they were not teaching those grammar or anything like that or teaching as they speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how many hours a day of language do"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe we had six hours a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That is intense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s very intense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very intense and in small groups."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.201350920211151, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe we had six hours a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That is intense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s very intense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very intense and in small groups."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very small groups. But you know, there was a there was there would be a large group for I forget what kind of presentation with maybe a little more theory about language and then small groups, of course, is where it all happened, because from the very first day we walked in, we were asked to speak. Oh. And then we simply continue to speak. And the teachers were wonderful. We were going to an Indian country where the Spanish, for the most part, is uncorrupted. It might be described as the 18th century Spanish, early 19th century Spanish, because these are such isolated areas and beautifully spoken. And all of these teachers were from Indian Country. Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, all of the higher elevations of Venezuela, not very good. So they spoke exactly the same kind of Spanish that they were going to be expected to speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there also instruction in indigenous languages?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.7792788002346125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s very intense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very intense and in small groups."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very small groups. But you know, there was a there was there would be a large group for I forget what kind of presentation with maybe a little more theory about language and then small groups, of course, is where it all happened, because from the very first day we walked in, we were asked to speak. Oh. And then we simply continue to speak. And the teachers were wonderful. We were going to an Indian country where the Spanish, for the most part, is uncorrupted. It might be described as the 18th century Spanish, early 19th century Spanish, because these are such isolated areas and beautifully spoken. And all of these teachers were from Indian Country. Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, all of the higher elevations of Venezuela, not very good. So they spoke exactly the same kind of Spanish that they were going to be expected to speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there also instruction in indigenous languages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not in my group at all. Later groups, yes. Because they realize they learn more about millenia. And the need to have at least some kind of understanding and a few, you know, the the typical reliable twenty words and in another language. But we picked it up. Yeah. And in my area it was Quechua."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quechua. I'm thinking particularly among the women who would it be too. Would have had less experience in school"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.134912099055077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not in my group at all. Later groups, yes. Because they realize they learn more about millenia. And the need to have at least some kind of understanding and a few, you know, the the typical reliable twenty words and in another language. But we picked it up. Yeah. And in my area it was Quechua."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quechua. I'm thinking particularly among the women who would it be too. Would have had less experience in school"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Among the women?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Bolivia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That the Bolivian women would not have been as educated as the men and therefore would not speak would speak less Spanish."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.927680110061196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Among the women?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Bolivia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That the Bolivian women would not have been as educated as the men and therefore would not speak would speak less Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, you know, in my part of the world where I ended up, you're not dealing with anybody who has any kind of education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[00:21:47]. Oh, OK. So let's let's let's put this up because I want to get back to that can put education aside."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.586311233401329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That the Bolivian women would not have been as educated as the men and therefore would not speak would speak less Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, you know, in my part of the world where I ended up, you're not dealing with anybody who has any kind of education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[00:21:47]. Oh, OK. So let's let's let's put this up because I want to get back to that can put education aside."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. OK, now when one went to the city and almost anything could be defined as a city from from where I lived in Bolivia. Yeah. You would run into people with a few years of, let's say, elementary school or something like that or maybe even a few more years. And it was typical that the men would be more likely to speak Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Than the women. Yeah, but"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.318123592668143, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, you know, in my part of the world where I ended up, you're not dealing with anybody who has any kind of education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[00:21:47]. Oh, OK. So let's let's let's put this up because I want to get back to that can put education aside."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. OK, now when one went to the city and almost anything could be defined as a city from from where I lived in Bolivia. Yeah. You would run into people with a few years of, let's say, elementary school or something like that or maybe even a few more years. And it was typical that the men would be more likely to speak Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Than the women. Yeah, but"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not where I lived."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. Was there physical training component?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.020137325186825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. OK, now when one went to the city and almost anything could be defined as a city from from where I lived in Bolivia. Yeah. You would run into people with a few years of, let's say, elementary school or something like that or maybe even a few more years. And it was typical that the men would be more likely to speak Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Than the women. Yeah, but"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not where I lived."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. Was there physical training component?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, yes, yes, they gave us over to a very pregnant faculty member in the physical Education Department at the University of Washington, and the fact that she was very pregnant didn't stop her at all. She ran us into the ground. I mean, here we were, young people and we had never been exposed to anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And here you were, an athlete in your own right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.689041472429805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not where I lived."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. Was there physical training component?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, yes, yes, they gave us over to a very pregnant faculty member in the physical Education Department at the University of Washington, and the fact that she was very pregnant didn't stop her at all. She ran us into the ground. I mean, here we were, young people and we had never been exposed to anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And here you were, an athlete in your own right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because I wouldn't have run had swimming and had my life safety certificate as a swimming instructor and had worked lots of times in the summer at college as a lifeguard. And she just can't seem to get around. Oh, my God. But you know what? It's not about the body. It's all about the mind and and how the mind can overcome. And that that's what she was working on, so she had us outside, she had us inside, and of course we had must understand how football was played from the perspective of playing it. So we played we were taught football and we play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say football, you're talking about the"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.432268302699783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, yes, yes, they gave us over to a very pregnant faculty member in the physical Education Department at the University of Washington, and the fact that she was very pregnant didn't stop her at all. She ran us into the ground. I mean, here we were, young people and we had never been exposed to anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And here you were, an athlete in your own right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because I wouldn't have run had swimming and had my life safety certificate as a swimming instructor and had worked lots of times in the summer at college as a lifeguard. And she just can't seem to get around. Oh, my God. But you know what? It's not about the body. It's all about the mind and and how the mind can overcome. And that that's what she was working on, so she had us outside, she had us inside, and of course we had must understand how football was played from the perspective of playing it. So we played we were taught football and we play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say football, you're talking about the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Soccer, talking about soccer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did anyone from a Peace Corps, Washington, come to your training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.258075891888648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because I wouldn't have run had swimming and had my life safety certificate as a swimming instructor and had worked lots of times in the summer at college as a lifeguard. And she just can't seem to get around. Oh, my God. But you know what? It's not about the body. It's all about the mind and and how the mind can overcome. And that that's what she was working on, so she had us outside, she had us inside, and of course we had must understand how football was played from the perspective of playing it. So we played we were taught football and we play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say football, you're talking about the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Soccer, talking about soccer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did anyone from a Peace Corps, Washington, come to your training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Again, this was the early days of the Peace Corps and everything was very experimental. And there would be constantly VIPs from Washington coming through, looking at the training techniques used by the University of Washington and trying to determine, well, what's working, what's not working. And, of course, the psychologists and all of the that component, we met with them regularly, one on one and small group sessions. And of course, they were most interested in what the psychologists were reporting because they're still trying to find, well, what is the profile? What is the who is the person we're"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at and is there a predictor of who will do well? And yes."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.175639879876275, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Soccer, talking about soccer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did anyone from a Peace Corps, Washington, come to your training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Again, this was the early days of the Peace Corps and everything was very experimental. And there would be constantly VIPs from Washington coming through, looking at the training techniques used by the University of Washington and trying to determine, well, what's working, what's not working. And, of course, the psychologists and all of the that component, we met with them regularly, one on one and small group sessions. And of course, they were most interested in what the psychologists were reporting because they're still trying to find, well, what is the profile? What is the who is the person we're"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at and is there a predictor of who will do well? And yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don't think they knew who would do well and who wouldn't. I mean, it was way too early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the psychologists came. And this kind of connects with the idea of the specter of deselection. How did that work in your group? Were people apprehensive, knowing that not everybody was going? Because they told you then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.19515542208475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Again, this was the early days of the Peace Corps and everything was very experimental. And there would be constantly VIPs from Washington coming through, looking at the training techniques used by the University of Washington and trying to determine, well, what's working, what's not working. And, of course, the psychologists and all of the that component, we met with them regularly, one on one and small group sessions. And of course, they were most interested in what the psychologists were reporting because they're still trying to find, well, what is the profile? What is the who is the person we're"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at and is there a predictor of who will do well? And yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don't think they knew who would do well and who wouldn't. I mean, it was way too early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the psychologists came. And this kind of connects with the idea of the specter of deselection. How did that work in your group? Were people apprehensive, knowing that not everybody was going? Because they told you then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely right from the beginning, you know, hello, we won't be saying goodbye to all of you when we send you to the next phase of training that some of you won't make it very up front. Very up front. So you were in like a fishbowl being observed in every respect, pretty much 24/7. Right. And I think we all felt that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to do peer evaluations or ranking?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.327950468983055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don't think they knew who would do well and who wouldn't. I mean, it was way too early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the psychologists came. And this kind of connects with the idea of the specter of deselection. How did that work in your group? Were people apprehensive, knowing that not everybody was going? Because they told you then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely right from the beginning, you know, hello, we won't be saying goodbye to all of you when we send you to the next phase of training that some of you won't make it very up front. Very up front. So you were in like a fishbowl being observed in every respect, pretty much 24/7. Right. And I think we all felt that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to do peer evaluations or ranking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boy, if we did, I don't remember that part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you pretty confident that you'd be among those to get to go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.586611632203393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely right from the beginning, you know, hello, we won't be saying goodbye to all of you when we send you to the next phase of training that some of you won't make it very up front. Very up front. So you were in like a fishbowl being observed in every respect, pretty much 24/7. Right. And I think we all felt that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to do peer evaluations or ranking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boy, if we did, I don't remember that part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you pretty confident that you'd be among those to get to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So somewhere towards the end of training, people began to did it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.985124035781547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boy, if we did, I don't remember that part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you pretty confident that you'd be among those to get to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So somewhere towards the end of training, people began to did it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I'm just looking over it. It's turning and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's turn it's turning somewhat towards the end of training people. Most of do they just disappear or did people have a chance to say goodbye? I'm speaking of those who were deselected."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.205693373090607, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So somewhere towards the end of training, people began to did it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I'm just looking over it. It's turning and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's turn it's turning somewhat towards the end of training people. Most of do they just disappear or did people have a chance to say goodbye? I'm speaking of those who were deselected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you see, the training wasn't completed and it wasn't to be completed at the University of Washington. Oh, we're going to go on to Puerto Rico for training. Oh. After Seattle. So unsure of how long we were in Seattle, I don't know. Let's say sixty days. Sixty five days, something like that. Yeah. And then on to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so did everybody go along to Puerto Rico. Didn't come down for deselected in Seattle."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.006325970100676, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I'm just looking over it. It's turning and"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's turn it's turning somewhat towards the end of training people. Most of do they just disappear or did people have a chance to say goodbye? I'm speaking of those who were deselected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you see, the training wasn't completed and it wasn't to be completed at the University of Washington. Oh, we're going to go on to Puerto Rico for training. Oh. After Seattle. So unsure of how long we were in Seattle, I don't know. Let's say sixty days. Sixty five days, something like that. Yeah. And then on to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so did everybody go along to Puerto Rico. Didn't come down for deselected in Seattle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but my father had an episode of mental illness. So in Seattle I dropped out and returned home. Oh, my brother and I had to come up with some kind of solution for him. Yeah. So I left Bolivia five with an invitation to return if I can work everything out to return to Bolivia six, which began in January. Also, I spent probably forty five days at home. Thirty five or forty five days at home. Yeah brother and I just trying to work out some kind of solution for him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And meanwhile the rest of your group had gone down to Puerto Rico."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.7848066334451955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you see, the training wasn't completed and it wasn't to be completed at the University of Washington. Oh, we're going to go on to Puerto Rico for training. Oh. After Seattle. So unsure of how long we were in Seattle, I don't know. Let's say sixty days. Sixty five days, something like that. Yeah. And then on to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so did everybody go along to Puerto Rico. Didn't come down for deselected in Seattle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but my father had an episode of mental illness. So in Seattle I dropped out and returned home. Oh, my brother and I had to come up with some kind of solution for him. Yeah. So I left Bolivia five with an invitation to return if I can work everything out to return to Bolivia six, which began in January. Also, I spent probably forty five days at home. Thirty five or forty five days at home. Yeah brother and I just trying to work out some kind of solution for him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And meanwhile the rest of your group had gone down to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The rest of our group had gone on to Puerto Rico. So my brother and I were able to work out some sort of accommodation for him. Yeah. And I returned to Bolivia VI in January."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness. So then you had to repeat. Yeah. What was a different was the"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.64978514827244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but my father had an episode of mental illness. So in Seattle I dropped out and returned home. Oh, my brother and I had to come up with some kind of solution for him. Yeah. So I left Bolivia five with an invitation to return if I can work everything out to return to Bolivia six, which began in January. Also, I spent probably forty five days at home. Thirty five or forty five days at home. Yeah brother and I just trying to work out some kind of solution for him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And meanwhile the rest of your group had gone down to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The rest of our group had gone on to Puerto Rico. So my brother and I were able to work out some sort of accommodation for him. Yeah. And I returned to Bolivia VI in January."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness. So then you had to repeat. Yeah. What was a different was the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As the same five and six were always envisioned as identical programs simply done in tandem rather than simultaneously. Yes. So that they could maintain the small group. That was one of the things that they wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's expensive, but"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.610872386969376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The rest of our group had gone on to Puerto Rico. So my brother and I were able to work out some sort of accommodation for him. Yeah. And I returned to Bolivia VI in January."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness. So then you had to repeat. Yeah. What was a different was the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As the same five and six were always envisioned as identical programs simply done in tandem rather than simultaneously. Yes. So that they could maintain the small group. That was one of the things that they wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's expensive, but"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we wanted to keep the small group kind of experience one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. And you didn't see any differences the second time around?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.567635985521528, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As the same five and six were always envisioned as identical programs simply done in tandem rather than simultaneously. Yes. So that they could maintain the small group. That was one of the things that they wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's expensive, but"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we wanted to keep the small group kind of experience one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. And you didn't see any differences the second time around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. VI was the same as V as far as I was concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had done a good job."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.408484428357253, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we wanted to keep the small group kind of experience one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. And you didn't see any differences the second time around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. VI was the same as V as far as I was concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had done a good job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same kind of people, same administration, same faculty. But then I had had all of that introduction. From Bolivia V, so I knew what to expect and I had a little bit of a leg up as far as the Spanish. That's what I was concerned. So that helped me with VI."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was a refresher to reinforce some of these. Right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.342760475952504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. VI was the same as V as far as I was concerned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had done a good job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same kind of people, same administration, same faculty. But then I had had all of that introduction. From Bolivia V, so I knew what to expect and I had a little bit of a leg up as far as the Spanish. That's what I was concerned. So that helped me with VI."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was a refresher to reinforce some of these. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the and the pregnant and the pregnant teacher had had her baby, all right. And she was replaced by an equally vigorous man who likewise around us into the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, meanwhile, you must be making friendships, so you must have formed some friendships."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.26973386216945, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same kind of people, same administration, same faculty. But then I had had all of that introduction. From Bolivia V, so I knew what to expect and I had a little bit of a leg up as far as the Spanish. That's what I was concerned. So that helped me with VI."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was a refresher to reinforce some of these. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the and the pregnant and the pregnant teacher had had her baby, all right. And she was replaced by an equally vigorous man who likewise around us into the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, meanwhile, you must be making friendships, so you must have formed some friendships."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes when you see people in Bolivia V would already be in the country working and VI arrive right when you read the same kinds of projects. So when I arrived in Bolivia, I reconnected with my friends and family of V. And you see there was no difference because Bolivia VI people were added to projects where Bolivia V people were working. So again, they were considered part of the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. This is very carefully planned."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.188593180188276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the and the pregnant and the pregnant teacher had had her baby, all right. And she was replaced by an equally vigorous man who likewise around us into the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, meanwhile, you must be making friendships, so you must have formed some friendships."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes when you see people in Bolivia V would already be in the country working and VI arrive right when you read the same kinds of projects. So when I arrived in Bolivia, I reconnected with my friends and family of V. And you see there was no difference because Bolivia VI people were added to projects where Bolivia V people were working. So again, they were considered part of the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. This is very carefully planned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, you just had the feeling of competence from day one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And since these people knew what they were doing, how wonderful. Is there anything else you'd like to say about training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.209547977986974, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes when you see people in Bolivia V would already be in the country working and VI arrive right when you read the same kinds of projects. So when I arrived in Bolivia, I reconnected with my friends and family of V. And you see there was no difference because Bolivia VI people were added to projects where Bolivia V people were working. So again, they were considered part of the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. This is very carefully planned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, you just had the feeling of competence from day one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And since these people knew what they were doing, how wonderful. Is there anything else you'd like to say about training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just thought it was excellent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wait, we haven't talked much about what went on in Puerto Rico."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.343942197763305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, you just had the feeling of competence from day one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And since these people knew what they were doing, how wonderful. Is there anything else you'd like to say about training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just thought it was excellent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wait, we haven't talked much about what went on in Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, she didn't ask me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me ask you. So you went back to Bolivia VI. You did the Seattle peace, and then you went on to Puerto Rico and what"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.493269108625894, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just thought it was excellent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wait, we haven't talked much about what went on in Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, she didn't ask me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me ask you. So you went back to Bolivia VI. You did the Seattle peace, and then you went on to Puerto Rico and what"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Puerto Rico was even more intense language training and in some cases six, eight hours a day of language training by a different staff from the staff that we had had in Seattle. So these people were typically they spoke more lowland, Spanish and Spanish. They say I lost my laborers, which means they drop off the end of the word in the end of the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sentence so that you're not going to hear much up in the Andes."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.770299009584326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, she didn't ask me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me ask you. So you went back to Bolivia VI. You did the Seattle peace, and then you went on to Puerto Rico and what"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Puerto Rico was even more intense language training and in some cases six, eight hours a day of language training by a different staff from the staff that we had had in Seattle. So these people were typically they spoke more lowland, Spanish and Spanish. They say I lost my laborers, which means they drop off the end of the word in the end of the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sentence so that you're not going to hear much up in the Andes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no. But they were equally committed and equally demanding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But this is good because you're going to hear Spanish was different."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.189221121760362, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Puerto Rico was even more intense language training and in some cases six, eight hours a day of language training by a different staff from the staff that we had had in Seattle. So these people were typically they spoke more lowland, Spanish and Spanish. They say I lost my laborers, which means they drop off the end of the word in the end of the"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sentence so that you're not going to hear much up in the Andes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no. But they were equally committed and equally demanding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But this is good because you're going to hear Spanish was different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So it's still training for the ear. That's right. And even more emphasis on physical conditioning in the at the camp, we were at a camp high up in the mountains in Puerto Rico, which had and we did rappelling down the side some of the local mountains and in very large swimming pool where we were. I can remember one of the things that you had to be able to do was swim to two lengths of the pool holding your breath. I did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were in Puerto Rico, what kind of housing situation were you in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.654690135289291, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no. But they were equally committed and equally demanding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But this is good because you're going to hear Spanish was different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So it's still training for the ear. That's right. And even more emphasis on physical conditioning in the at the camp, we were at a camp high up in the mountains in Puerto Rico, which had and we did rappelling down the side some of the local mountains and in very large swimming pool where we were. I can remember one of the things that you had to be able to do was swim to two lengths of the pool holding your breath. I did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were in Puerto Rico, what kind of housing situation were you in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like being a, a primitive Girl Scout camp with a wooden platform raised with a tent over it,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you weren't staying with a family. Did you have contact with the Puerto Rican?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.060766816988101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So it's still training for the ear. That's right. And even more emphasis on physical conditioning in the at the camp, we were at a camp high up in the mountains in Puerto Rico, which had and we did rappelling down the side some of the local mountains and in very large swimming pool where we were. I can remember one of the things that you had to be able to do was swim to two lengths of the pool holding your breath. I did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were in Puerto Rico, what kind of housing situation were you in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like being a, a primitive Girl Scout camp with a wooden platform raised with a tent over it,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you weren't staying with a family. Did you have contact with the Puerto Rican?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only when we had a few hours off and could go to the beach, would hitch rides going north to the to to the beach on a day off, like a Sunday"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or so it would be on"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.62307424109789, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like being a, a primitive Girl Scout camp with a wooden platform raised with a tent over it,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you weren't staying with a family. Did you have contact with the Puerto Rican?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only when we had a few hours off and could go to the beach, would hitch rides going north to the to to the beach on a day off, like a Sunday"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or so it would be on"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Your own. Oh, yeah. Right. Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then there was some kind of swearing in ceremony."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.91452693455321, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only when we had a few hours off and could go to the beach, would hitch rides going north to the to to the beach on a day off, like a Sunday"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or so it would be on"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Your own. Oh, yeah. Right. Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then there was some kind of swearing in ceremony."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not for me, no. One day all the meals were in a very large tent when this was mosquito netting all the way around. And we were sitting at dinner one evening and a two men came in and asked the person in charge to see two of us, myself and a man in in training with me and was over at the side. They explained that there was a special situation that had developed in Bolivia that they would like to know if we were interested in and would this be an assignment we would accept. And they told us about a national hospital, which was part of the Ministry of Health in Bolivia, which was a leprosarium. Oh, and they needed some additional staff. And here's the reason why a political flap had developed with volunteers in Bolivia V, including nurses and a hospital administrator, and the inability of those people to adapt to the supervision of the Bolivian doctor and to adapt to the treatment methods, the leprosarium. And this was this particular hospital was a political favorite of the United States ambassador to Bolivia. His name was Douglas Henderson. And the doctor in charge, Dr. Siles Lopez, was a personal friend of the ambassadors. And as far as the United States government, Bolivia was concerned there was absolutely nothing that the volunteers were going to screw up any further at that project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They saw volunteers screwing this up because they had a conflict in conflict with the doctor."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.598181400682975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not for me, no. One day all the meals were in a very large tent when this was mosquito netting all the way around. And we were sitting at dinner one evening and a two men came in and asked the person in charge to see two of us, myself and a man in in training with me and was over at the side. They explained that there was a special situation that had developed in Bolivia that they would like to know if we were interested in and would this be an assignment we would accept. And they told us about a national hospital, which was part of the Ministry of Health in Bolivia, which was a leprosarium. Oh, and they needed some additional staff. And here's the reason why a political flap had developed with volunteers in Bolivia V, including nurses and a hospital administrator, and the inability of those people to adapt to the supervision of the Bolivian doctor and to adapt to the treatment methods, the leprosarium. And this was this particular hospital was a political favorite of the United States ambassador to Bolivia. His name was Douglas Henderson. And the doctor in charge, Dr. Siles Lopez, was a personal friend of the ambassadors. And as far as the United States government, Bolivia was concerned there was absolutely nothing that the volunteers were going to screw up any further at that project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They saw volunteers screwing this up because they had a conflict in conflict with the doctor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And here's the rub, because these all these people had been trained in U.S. hospital settings. And that's what they expected. And that's what they could work with. And the treatment of leprosy worldwide is no treatment. You put all these people into the remote, far away reaches of whatever country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They’re segregated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you hope you never see them again and you don't. Yeah, and malaria is no different. So they simply were at loggerheads with the medical director, Dr. Siles, and she wasn't going to stand for it and there was no reason she should have stood for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you're saying that's."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.886868222981082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And here's the rub, because these all these people had been trained in U.S. hospital settings. And that's what they expected. And that's what they could work with. And the treatment of leprosy worldwide is no treatment. You put all these people into the remote, far away reaches of whatever country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They’re segregated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you hope you never see them again and you don't. Yeah, and malaria is no different. So they simply were at loggerheads with the medical director, Dr. Siles, and she wasn't going to stand for it and there was no reason she should have stood for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you're saying that's."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. The only way to see it. And Ambassador Anderson backed her up 100 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is the kind of thing that the people in training could never have foreseen. Of course not."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.576380522198868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. The only way to see it. And Ambassador Anderson backed her up 100 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is the kind of thing that the people in training could never have foreseen. Of course not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so these people were from the Department of State who visited the Peace Corps, working in Puerto Rico. And they're trying to solve a political problem caused by these intransigent Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well intentioned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well intentioned. But, you know, good intentions aren't enough. Yeah. And the other person in training with me was Ed Lipski. He was from Minneapolis and he was not a health care professional and neither was I. And we were perceived as open minded and flexible, being able to see both sides. Not threatened by conflict, able to handle conflict, we had consistently been rated very high on language skills. Oh yeah, and in cultural understanding and we were perceived as maybe a middle ground between the two sides. We're at war with each other at the project. Yeah. So I don't know how you say no to this fellow. So I said yes and to and when we left that night for the United States, the main one I'm talking about"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, to say goodbye."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.418200580220963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so these people were from the Department of State who visited the Peace Corps, working in Puerto Rico. And they're trying to solve a political problem caused by these intransigent Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well intentioned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well intentioned. But, you know, good intentions aren't enough. Yeah. And the other person in training with me was Ed Lipski. He was from Minneapolis and he was not a health care professional and neither was I. And we were perceived as open minded and flexible, being able to see both sides. Not threatened by conflict, able to handle conflict, we had consistently been rated very high on language skills. Oh yeah, and in cultural understanding and we were perceived as maybe a middle ground between the two sides. We're at war with each other at the project. Yeah. So I don't know how you say no to this fellow. So I said yes and to and when we left that night for the United States, the main one I'm talking about"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, to say goodbye."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, for further training. At the US Public Health Service Hospital in Carville, Louisiana, the only leprosarium in the United States. We had three more weeks of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And with just the two of you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.353556200245515, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well intentioned. But, you know, good intentions aren't enough. Yeah. And the other person in training with me was Ed Lipski. He was from Minneapolis and he was not a health care professional and neither was I. And we were perceived as open minded and flexible, being able to see both sides. Not threatened by conflict, able to handle conflict, we had consistently been rated very high on language skills. Oh yeah, and in cultural understanding and we were perceived as maybe a middle ground between the two sides. We're at war with each other at the project. Yeah. So I don't know how you say no to this fellow. So I said yes and to and when we left that night for the United States, the main one I'm talking about"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, to say goodbye."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, for further training. At the US Public Health Service Hospital in Carville, Louisiana, the only leprosarium in the United States. We had three more weeks of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And with just the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what does that mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.281729111383905, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, for further training. At the US Public Health Service Hospital in Carville, Louisiana, the only leprosarium in the United States. We had three more weeks of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And with just the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what does that mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The the leprosarium is right outside of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And it was wonderful. And I mean we were both so scared. I mean, what is leprosy? We had no idea what leprosy. Right. And these two, a department state types except yourself, couldn't tell us anymore about how to proceed and they could fly. So we just had to keep our fingers crossed. The staff there. Fantastic. Fantastic. They just took us under their wing. Understood how scared we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just when you say you were scared, scared of contacting leprosy. Scared of coming down."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.201921234871005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what does that mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The the leprosarium is right outside of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And it was wonderful. And I mean we were both so scared. I mean, what is leprosy? We had no idea what leprosy. Right. And these two, a department state types except yourself, couldn't tell us anymore about how to proceed and they could fly. So we just had to keep our fingers crossed. The staff there. Fantastic. Fantastic. They just took us under their wing. Understood how scared we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just when you say you were scared, scared of contacting leprosy. Scared of coming down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And as it turns out, you know, you know Michael microbes mycobacterium Lepra is so weak, so puny it hardly is capable of communicating anything. But we didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had healthy bodies."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.002134705412228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The the leprosarium is right outside of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And it was wonderful. And I mean we were both so scared. I mean, what is leprosy? We had no idea what leprosy. Right. And these two, a department state types except yourself, couldn't tell us anymore about how to proceed and they could fly. So we just had to keep our fingers crossed. The staff there. Fantastic. Fantastic. They just took us under their wing. Understood how scared we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And just when you say you were scared, scared of contacting leprosy. Scared of coming down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And as it turns out, you know, you know Michael microbes mycobacterium Lepra is so weak, so puny it hardly is capable of communicating anything. But we didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had healthy bodies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And healthy babies. Well, we were taken under the wing of the staff at Carvell and just taught everything that they could teach us. And in about two and a half, three weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were teaching you also what they do in the leprosarium."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.891260783791363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And as it turns out, you know, you know Michael microbes mycobacterium Lepra is so weak, so puny it hardly is capable of communicating anything. But we didn't know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had healthy bodies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And healthy babies. Well, we were taken under the wing of the staff at Carvell and just taught everything that they could teach us. And in about two and a half, three weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were teaching you also what they do in the leprosarium."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What is a leprosarium. Yes. How it works. This is leprosy. This is how it's transmitted. This is what we know of the disease. This is what we know of not you don't cure leprosy, but you can arrest it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so there would be treatment to arrest the progress of the disease and perhaps something to make people feel more comfortable."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.76806753754596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And healthy babies. Well, we were taken under the wing of the staff at Carvell and just taught everything that they could teach us. And in about two and a half, three weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were teaching you also what they do in the leprosarium."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What is a leprosarium. Yes. How it works. This is leprosy. This is how it's transmitted. This is what we know of the disease. This is what we know of not you don't cure leprosy, but you can arrest it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so there would be treatment to arrest the progress of the disease and perhaps something to make people feel more comfortable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Help them rejoin their families and rejoin their lives. We were introduced on from day one to leprosy patients who were in some cases outpatients who came for their sulfa therapy from cities and towns around that room and maybe in other parts of the south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is assuming that the families would receive these people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.742297263939955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What is a leprosarium. Yes. How it works. This is leprosy. This is how it's transmitted. This is what we know of the disease. This is what we know of not you don't cure leprosy, but you can arrest it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so there would be treatment to arrest the progress of the disease and perhaps something to make people feel more comfortable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Help them rejoin their families and rejoin their lives. We were introduced on from day one to leprosy patients who were in some cases outpatients who came for their sulfa therapy from cities and towns around that room and maybe in other parts of the south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is assuming that the families would receive these people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But see, there’s a huge, huge, huge education component."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And there you are."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.824774737711062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Help them rejoin their families and rejoin their lives. We were introduced on from day one to leprosy patients who were in some cases outpatients who came for their sulfa therapy from cities and towns around that room and maybe in other parts of the south."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is assuming that the families would receive these people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But see, there’s a huge, huge, huge education component."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And there you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To the leprosy treatment. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Before we get to Bolivia now, I want to get out of here. I want to bring in precisely this discussion. But but let's let's close up Louisiana here. You were there for"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.916416375234512, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But see, there’s a huge, huge, huge education component."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And there you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To the leprosy treatment. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Before we get to Bolivia now, I want to get out of here. I want to bring in precisely this discussion. But but let's let's close up Louisiana here. You were there for"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two and a half, three weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two weeks. And then did you have a chance to go back to your family and say goodbye?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.796018194705013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To the leprosy treatment. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Before we get to Bolivia now, I want to get out of here. I want to bring in precisely this discussion. But but let's let's close up Louisiana here. You were there for"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two and a half, three weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two weeks. And then did you have a chance to go back to your family and say goodbye?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. We were sent, we went we flew from the Baton Rouge Airport to New Orleans and from New Orleans to New York. And we joined our group in New York just as it was flying to Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no time to go shopping, pack up, say goodbye."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.773353549672237, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two and a half, three weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two weeks. And then did you have a chance to go back to your family and say goodbye?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. We were sent, we went we flew from the Baton Rouge Airport to New Orleans and from New Orleans to New York. And we joined our group in New York just as it was flying to Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no time to go shopping, pack up, say goodbye."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No time to have any second thoughts either! Our fellow volunteers in training, when we greeted them, they weren't even sure they want to shake our hands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you had spent three weeks in a leprosarium."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.637059499635818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. We were sent, we went we flew from the Baton Rouge Airport to New Orleans and from New Orleans to New York. And we joined our group in New York just as it was flying to Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no time to go shopping, pack up, say goodbye."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No time to have any second thoughts either! Our fellow volunteers in training, when we greeted them, they weren't even sure they want to shake our hands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you had spent three weeks in a leprosarium."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. So that that was our introduction. US. Yeah. And like people to this day when I, I don't talk about my Peace Corps experience very much because it's so alien, so very alien to people's lives today, that it takes a long time to make the connections. But then when I get to the part where I spent two and a half years in the leprosarium, people today don't want to shake my hand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a need for education up here too. So you rejoin Bolivia VI in New York, right. And you fly to"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.59673277737313, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No time to have any second thoughts either! Our fellow volunteers in training, when we greeted them, they weren't even sure they want to shake our hands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you had spent three weeks in a leprosarium."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. So that that was our introduction. US. Yeah. And like people to this day when I, I don't talk about my Peace Corps experience very much because it's so alien, so very alien to people's lives today, that it takes a long time to make the connections. But then when I get to the part where I spent two and a half years in the leprosarium, people today don't want to shake my hand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a need for education up here too. So you rejoin Bolivia VI in New York, right. And you fly to"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a great party."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Oh, very good. So they put you up for the night."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.551925308192367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. So that that was our introduction. US. Yeah. And like people to this day when I, I don't talk about my Peace Corps experience very much because it's so alien, so very alien to people's lives today, that it takes a long time to make the connections. But then when I get to the part where I spent two and a half years in the leprosarium, people today don't want to shake my hand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a need for education up here too. So you rejoin Bolivia VI in New York, right. And you fly to"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a great party."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Oh, very good. So they put you up for the night."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up for the night, but not much sleep that night. We go on a plane to La Paz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you flew into La Paz and then from so did you spend some time in La Paz in country orientation,"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.613250342435963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a great party."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Oh, very good. So they put you up for the night."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up for the night, but not much sleep that night. We go on a plane to La Paz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you flew into La Paz and then from so did you spend some time in La Paz in country orientation,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably being sick. Oh, altitudes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Altitude sickeness. Yeah, well, New Orleans is sea level and you're going"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.681389269373291, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up for the night, but not much sleep that night. We go on a plane to La Paz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you flew into La Paz and then from so did you spend some time in La Paz in country orientation,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably being sick. Oh, altitudes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Altitude sickeness. Yeah, well, New Orleans is sea level and you're going"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up to leprosarium was right on the Mississippi River. So very close to if not even slightly below."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And and then you're going two miles up"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.534876965970323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably being sick. Oh, altitudes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Altitude sickeness. Yeah, well, New Orleans is sea level and you're going"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up to leprosarium was right on the Mississippi River. So very close to if not even slightly below."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And and then you're going two miles up"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To La Paz. But just for a few days because this leprosarium was down at about sixty five hundred feet, further east of Cochabamba. And Cochabamba is the principal Bolivian city at about seventy five, at a manageable altitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And then you were east of that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.483196628855914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up to leprosarium was right on the Mississippi River. So very close to if not even slightly below."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And and then you're going two miles up"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To La Paz. But just for a few days because this leprosarium was down at about sixty five hundred feet, further east of Cochabamba. And Cochabamba is the principal Bolivian city at about seventy five, at a manageable altitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And then you were east of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so as you go further you're going Bolivia, you're going down in altitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right. How far down were you when you finally got to your place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.536885143173238, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To La Paz. But just for a few days because this leprosarium was down at about sixty five hundred feet, further east of Cochabamba. And Cochabamba is the principal Bolivian city at about seventy five, at a manageable altitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And then you were east of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so as you go further you're going Bolivia, you're going down in altitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right. How far down were you when you finally got to your place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About sixty five hundred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sixty five hundred. Yeah. That's not so bad. No. And what's the name of the place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.596539047970264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so as you go further you're going Bolivia, you're going down in altitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right. How far down were you when you finally got to your place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About sixty five hundred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sixty five hundred. Yeah. That's not so bad. No. And what's the name of the place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Los Negros, was the name of the is it a village or."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.551710053300294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About sixty five hundred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sixty five hundred. Yeah. That's not so bad. No. And what's the name of the place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Los Negros, was the name of the is it a village or."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a village on the other side of this was a seasonal creek. So leprosarium the colony, La Colonia is on one side of the seasonal creek and the little tiny village of Los Negros is on the other side of the creek. So it would be commonly referred to as La Colonia de Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, OK. Because La Colonia was the leprosarium. All right. That's what they called it. Yeah. Colony, the colony, a colony of leopards."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.2796778370003254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Los Negros, was the name of the is it a village or."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a village on the other side of this was a seasonal creek. So leprosarium the colony, La Colonia is on one side of the seasonal creek and the little tiny village of Los Negros is on the other side of the creek. So it would be commonly referred to as La Colonia de Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, OK. Because La Colonia was the leprosarium. All right. That's what they called it. Yeah. Colony, the colony, a colony of leopards."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, if you've ever read any of the story of the Catholic priest, Father Damien. Yes. In Hawaii now, you know, they're all the same. They're all the same. You just everybody holds well. We won't see these people again if we're lucky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you arrive in Los Negros somehow. How did you get there from La Paz?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.088530930000362, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a village on the other side of this was a seasonal creek. So leprosarium the colony, La Colonia is on one side of the seasonal creek and the little tiny village of Los Negros is on the other side of the creek. So it would be commonly referred to as La Colonia de Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, OK. Because La Colonia was the leprosarium. All right. That's what they called it. Yeah. Colony, the colony, a colony of leopards."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, if you've ever read any of the story of the Catholic priest, Father Damien. Yes. In Hawaii now, you know, they're all the same. They're all the same. You just everybody holds well. We won't see these people again if we're lucky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you arrive in Los Negros somehow. How did you get there from La Paz?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By bus. So you go down to Cochabamba first."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.6539232555559575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, if you've ever read any of the story of the Catholic priest, Father Damien. Yes. In Hawaii now, you know, they're all the same. They're all the same. You just everybody holds well. We won't see these people again if we're lucky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you arrive in Los Negros somehow. How did you get there from La Paz?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By bus. So you go down to Cochabamba first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First from La Paz to Cochabamba, which is a docent in about 12 hours of four thousand feet. I mean, you just, you know. All right, there's just no perspective I can give you on riding the bus on Bolivianos, the loss of life and the danger"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With crosses on the side of the road."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.171025839506619, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By bus. So you go down to Cochabamba first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First from La Paz to Cochabamba, which is a docent in about 12 hours of four thousand feet. I mean, you just, you know. All right, there's just no perspective I can give you on riding the bus on Bolivianos, the loss of life and the danger"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With crosses on the side of the road."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh man, crosses everywhere on the side of the road. Oh, and people throwing up the Indians or throwing up all over the bus and some refuse to get inside. Some right on top. And I quickly discovered that riding on top was far better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the better thing. Well, if people are throwing up inside"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.272871406798295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh man, crosses everywhere on the side of the road. Oh, and people throwing up the Indians or throwing up all over the bus and some refuse to get inside. Some right on top. And I quickly discovered that riding on top was far better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the better thing. Well, if people are throwing up inside"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We arrived by bus. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Cochabamba"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Cochabamba. And then you get another bus to Santa Cruz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you get to spend the night in Cochabamba and rest."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.858746007553661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We arrived by bus. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Cochabamba"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Cochabamba. And then you get another bus to Santa Cruz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you get to spend the night in Cochabamba and rest."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I cannot recall. It's a good question. Our only answer to it because another bus from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz and the colony there was an old colony is quite close to the main road from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz. So there was somebody there at the little I mean, there's no pot or anything, but everybody knows where the bus stops. So so the hospital administrator was right there"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Santa Cruz. No, no. You're talking about neighbors. Yeah. OK, so there's a bus from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz and then from Santa Cruz to you"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.287495563948513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Cochabamba. And then you get another bus to Santa Cruz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you get to spend the night in Cochabamba and rest."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I cannot recall. It's a good question. Our only answer to it because another bus from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz and the colony there was an old colony is quite close to the main road from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz. So there was somebody there at the little I mean, there's no pot or anything, but everybody knows where the bus stops. So so the hospital administrator was right there"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Santa Cruz. No, no. You're talking about neighbors. Yeah. OK, so there's a bus from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz and then from Santa Cruz to you"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can ride it should you wish to suffer that much all the way from La Paz to Santa Cruz, because these are long distance. These are what we would consider Greyhound's. In fact, it wasn't it was the Greyhound painted on the side of the bus. They were Gallego busses, which is Greyhound. And so you can go the long distance all the way from the past to Santa Cruz, should you wish. So we went from La Paz to Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so now you're right, you're right, you are still with Ed, the two of you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.763883959942792, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I cannot recall. It's a good question. Our only answer to it because another bus from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz and the colony there was an old colony is quite close to the main road from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz. So there was somebody there at the little I mean, there's no pot or anything, but everybody knows where the bus stops. So so the hospital administrator was right there"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Santa Cruz. No, no. You're talking about neighbors. Yeah. OK, so there's a bus from Cochabamba to Santa Cruz and then from Santa Cruz to you"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can ride it should you wish to suffer that much all the way from La Paz to Santa Cruz, because these are long distance. These are what we would consider Greyhound's. In fact, it wasn't it was the Greyhound painted on the side of the bus. They were Gallego busses, which is Greyhound. And so you can go the long distance all the way from the past to Santa Cruz, should you wish. So we went from La Paz to Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so now you're right, you're right, you are still with Ed, the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All you said and I are you know, we're bosom buddies by now, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you get to Los Negros and somebody."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.293204399936435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can ride it should you wish to suffer that much all the way from La Paz to Santa Cruz, because these are long distance. These are what we would consider Greyhound's. In fact, it wasn't it was the Greyhound painted on the side of the bus. They were Gallego busses, which is Greyhound. And so you can go the long distance all the way from the past to Santa Cruz, should you wish. So we went from La Paz to Los Negros."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so now you're right, you're right, you are still with Ed, the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All you said and I are you know, we're bosom buddies by now, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you get to Los Negros and somebody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The hospital administrator. Not Dr. Siles, she's the hospital director. The person who met us was the Peace Corps volunteer who was a hospital administrator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A Peace Corps volunteer was the"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.770227111040484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All you said and I are you know, we're bosom buddies by now, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you get to Los Negros and somebody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The hospital administrator. Not Dr. Siles, she's the hospital director. The person who met us was the Peace Corps volunteer who was a hospital administrator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A Peace Corps volunteer was the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Michael J. O’Sullivan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was in Bolivia V?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.300252345600537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The hospital administrator. Not Dr. Siles, she's the hospital director. The person who met us was the Peace Corps volunteer who was a hospital administrator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A Peace Corps volunteer was the"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Michael J. O’Sullivan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was in Bolivia V?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you already knew him?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.889169272889485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Michael J. O’Sullivan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was in Bolivia V?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you already knew him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was the hospital administrator, not the leprosarium administrator."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.432410303210538, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you already knew him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was the hospital administrator, not the leprosarium administrator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the hospital is one long building cinder block with, you know, some kind of metal roof and like a hospital ward with rooms off of that and which everything takes place. So when you think of when I when I talk about the hospital, I'm really talking about the colony. But the fact of the matter is that there was a leprosy patient who was the overseer for the lands that the colony owned because this little enterprise was entirely self- sufficient. They raised their own animals. They had they cultivated their own land. They irrigated their own crops. They provided for themselves because nobody else is going to do it. The Ministry of Public Health said bye bye. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ha ha. So out of necessity. Absolutely. And because of that necessity, they have a function."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.036011448011709, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was the hospital administrator, not the leprosarium administrator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the hospital is one long building cinder block with, you know, some kind of metal roof and like a hospital ward with rooms off of that and which everything takes place. So when you think of when I when I talk about the hospital, I'm really talking about the colony. But the fact of the matter is that there was a leprosy patient who was the overseer for the lands that the colony owned because this little enterprise was entirely self- sufficient. They raised their own animals. They had they cultivated their own land. They irrigated their own crops. They provided for themselves because nobody else is going to do it. The Ministry of Public Health said bye bye. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ha ha. So out of necessity. Absolutely. And because of that necessity, they have a function."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So everybody worked. Yeah. Even the sickest patients had something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Michael J. O’Sullivan who you already knew, greets you at the bus stop, at the bus stop."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.706679386679676, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the hospital is one long building cinder block with, you know, some kind of metal roof and like a hospital ward with rooms off of that and which everything takes place. So when you think of when I when I talk about the hospital, I'm really talking about the colony. But the fact of the matter is that there was a leprosy patient who was the overseer for the lands that the colony owned because this little enterprise was entirely self- sufficient. They raised their own animals. They had they cultivated their own land. They irrigated their own crops. They provided for themselves because nobody else is going to do it. The Ministry of Public Health said bye bye. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ha ha. So out of necessity. Absolutely. And because of that necessity, they have a function."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So everybody worked. Yeah. Even the sickest patients had something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Michael J. O’Sullivan who you already knew, greets you at the bus stop, at the bus stop."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then you drive us in the jeep to doctor introduce us to Dr. Siles. Doctor Siles receives us in her office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you spell Siles?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.2296437629774175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. So everybody worked. Yeah. Even the sickest patients had something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Michael J. O’Sullivan who you already knew, greets you at the bus stop, at the bus stop."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then you drive us in the jeep to doctor introduce us to Dr. Siles. Doctor Siles receives us in her office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you spell Siles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "S-I-L-E-S. She is Nora Siles Lopez. A very prominent Bolivian family, politically, very well connected, Dr. Ambassador Henderson is not going to fool around with Dr. Siles, he's going to treat her with the respect she deserves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her title is the hospital director?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.810715292197131, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then you drive us in the jeep to doctor introduce us to Dr. Siles. Doctor Siles receives us in her office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you spell Siles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "S-I-L-E-S. She is Nora Siles Lopez. A very prominent Bolivian family, politically, very well connected, Dr. Ambassador Henderson is not going to fool around with Dr. Siles, he's going to treat her with the respect she deserves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her title is the hospital director?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Assume she is the medical director of the colony, the hospital director, everything. She's in charge, she reports to the minister of public health."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was with her that there had been other Peace Corps volunteers there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.456350324663478, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "S-I-L-E-S. She is Nora Siles Lopez. A very prominent Bolivian family, politically, very well connected, Dr. Ambassador Henderson is not going to fool around with Dr. Siles, he's going to treat her with the respect she deserves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her title is the hospital director?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Assume she is the medical director of the colony, the hospital director, everything. She's in charge, she reports to the minister of public health."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was with her that there had been other Peace Corps volunteers there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they were still there. I thought they had disappeared by the time. Oh, no, no, I'm still there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.17372258295942, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Assume she is the medical director of the colony, the hospital director, everything. She's in charge, she reports to the minister of public health."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was with her that there had been other Peace Corps volunteers there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they were still there. I thought they had disappeared by the time. Oh, no, no, I'm still there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my God. She received us with open arms. I'm very glad to see us. Very glad to hear us speak Spanish and to understand that she didn't have to fall back on her excellent English to explain things to the two Peace Corps nurses who were the intransigent types."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were two. So there were three people from Bolivia V already there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.970802869954911, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they were still there. I thought they had disappeared by the time. Oh, no, no, I'm still there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my God. She received us with open arms. I'm very glad to see us. Very glad to hear us speak Spanish and to understand that she didn't have to fall back on her excellent English to explain things to the two Peace Corps nurses who were the intransigent types."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were two. So there were three people from Bolivia V already there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A medtech, two nurses and Michael. And others would come after us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all four of them were locking heads?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.523114299949901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my God. She received us with open arms. I'm very glad to see us. Very glad to hear us speak Spanish and to understand that she didn't have to fall back on her excellent English to explain things to the two Peace Corps nurses who were the intransigent types."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were two. So there were three people from Bolivia V already there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A medtech, two nurses and Michael. And others would come after us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all four of them were locking heads?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, Irene the medtech was very definitely Four-Square in Dr. Siles’s Corner. Michael J was trying to keep the peace, and the two nurses were on the opposite side to Dr. Siles. So you introduce to new people who are ostensibly like the med tech sort of sort of in Dr. Siles corner or in the middle. Change the chemistry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, this seems like a new hat for brand new Peace Corps volunteers."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.136793666611001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A medtech, two nurses and Michael. And others would come after us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all four of them were locking heads?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, Irene the medtech was very definitely Four-Square in Dr. Siles’s Corner. Michael J was trying to keep the peace, and the two nurses were on the opposite side to Dr. Siles. So you introduce to new people who are ostensibly like the med tech sort of sort of in Dr. Siles corner or in the middle. Change the chemistry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, this seems like a new hat for brand new Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Talking about making it up as we went along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess. Where did you when you first got there, what sort of housing was provided?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.4853262962344456, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, Irene the medtech was very definitely Four-Square in Dr. Siles’s Corner. Michael J was trying to keep the peace, and the two nurses were on the opposite side to Dr. Siles. So you introduce to new people who are ostensibly like the med tech sort of sort of in Dr. Siles corner or in the middle. Change the chemistry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, this seems like a new hat for brand new Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Talking about making it up as we went along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess. Where did you when you first got there, what sort of housing was provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the the Doctor Siles lived there at Los Negros and all of the volunteers lived there in the house as well. And that's where they put us up for a while. But I really didn't want to live 24/7 with Peace Corps volunteers. So I rented a room in the tiniest village imaginable about two kilometers away. I rode my bicycle back and forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good for you. And what was the name of that village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.761473662482717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Talking about making it up as we went along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess. Where did you when you first got there, what sort of housing was provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the the Doctor Siles lived there at Los Negros and all of the volunteers lived there in the house as well. And that's where they put us up for a while. But I really didn't want to live 24/7 with Peace Corps volunteers. So I rented a room in the tiniest village imaginable about two kilometers away. I rode my bicycle back and forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good for you. And what was the name of that village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pampagrande."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pampagrande. But not so grande, no?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.068304069425241, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the the Doctor Siles lived there at Los Negros and all of the volunteers lived there in the house as well. And that's where they put us up for a while. But I really didn't want to live 24/7 with Peace Corps volunteers. So I rented a room in the tiniest village imaginable about two kilometers away. I rode my bicycle back and forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good for you. And what was the name of that village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pampagrande."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pampagrande. But not so grande, no?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you lived in the house of your own or did you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4092267438058235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pampagrande."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pampagrande. But not so grande, no?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you lived in the house of your own or did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I just rented a room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You rented a room."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7880297153398037, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you lived in the house of your own or did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I just rented a room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You rented a room."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With a family. So, you ate with them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.208921905933115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I just rented a room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You rented a room."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With a family. So, you ate with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I took pencion a couple of blocks over in the tiny village of Pampagrande."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And pencion means"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.676579895481239, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With a family. So, you ate with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I took pencion a couple of blocks over in the tiny village of Pampagrande."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And pencion means"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Means to have my meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were eating Bolivian food cooked by Bolivians?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.196199883868043, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I took pencion a couple of blocks over in the tiny village of Pampagrande."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And pencion means"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Means to have my meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were eating Bolivian food cooked by Bolivians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how was your health?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.773555426520048, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Means to have my meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were eating Bolivian food cooked by Bolivians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how was your health?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My health was fine. It's good for you. I lost weight, but no, my health was fine. I had no, um, none of the things that they were so concerned that we would get to were a problem for me. I had fellow volunteers at the hospital who had typhoid fever. But look, this is. Not me. You didn't, not it either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but because you weren't town, you had a chance to speak Spanish, too. Yes, I got to make friends to make people in the village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.415061585022275, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how was your health?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My health was fine. It's good for you. I lost weight, but no, my health was fine. I had no, um, none of the things that they were so concerned that we would get to were a problem for me. I had fellow volunteers at the hospital who had typhoid fever. But look, this is. Not me. You didn't, not it either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but because you weren't town, you had a chance to speak Spanish, too. Yes, I got to make friends to make people in the village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got to where people knew best for the schoolteacher and his wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you would be at their house sometime."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.127846205580305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My health was fine. It's good for you. I lost weight, but no, my health was fine. I had no, um, none of the things that they were so concerned that we would get to were a problem for me. I had fellow volunteers at the hospital who had typhoid fever. But look, this is. Not me. You didn't, not it either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but because you weren't town, you had a chance to speak Spanish, too. Yes, I got to make friends to make people in the village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got to where people knew best for the schoolteacher and his wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you would be at their house sometime."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And they would come in and pick me up at my little room and take me to various places to show me things and and in the little village. So I got to learn about a life in Bolivia outside of the hospital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, terrific. And all this while you're using your Spanish?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.808718006200339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got to where people knew best for the schoolteacher and his wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you would be at their house sometime."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And they would come in and pick me up at my little room and take me to various places to show me things and and in the little village. So I got to learn about a life in Bolivia outside of the hospital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, terrific. And all this while you're using your Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. And learning to use Spanish at the hospital as well, which was good. One of the rubs with Dr. Siles says these nurses. Never really applied themselves to the line, into the language while they were in training, U.S. Peace Corps is on the horns of a dilemma. If they if the volunteer has the technical skills, but in subpar language, I mean, what are you going to do?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, in this case, you need those technical skills. Right. But in this case, you need them both."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.343020006889265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And they would come in and pick me up at my little room and take me to various places to show me things and and in the little village. So I got to learn about a life in Bolivia outside of the hospital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, terrific. And all this while you're using your Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. And learning to use Spanish at the hospital as well, which was good. One of the rubs with Dr. Siles says these nurses. Never really applied themselves to the line, into the language while they were in training, U.S. Peace Corps is on the horns of a dilemma. If they if the volunteer has the technical skills, but in subpar language, I mean, what are you going to do?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, in this case, you need those technical skills. Right. But in this case, you need them both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And they couldn't always find some of the best volunteers in Bolivia V and VI or"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People who had both. Yeah. And there were few and far between. And you didn't have both when you went into training you acquired has been acquired."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.936688896543628, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. And learning to use Spanish at the hospital as well, which was good. One of the rubs with Dr. Siles says these nurses. Never really applied themselves to the line, into the language while they were in training, U.S. Peace Corps is on the horns of a dilemma. If they if the volunteer has the technical skills, but in subpar language, I mean, what are you going to do?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, in this case, you need those technical skills. Right. But in this case, you need them both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And they couldn't always find some of the best volunteers in Bolivia V and VI or"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People who had both. Yeah. And there were few and far between. And you didn't have both when you went into training you acquired has been acquired."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I ended up you might you have asked me what I ended up doing at the hospital and what Ed ended up doing at the hospital. I and the medtech, Dr. Siles, was very interested in interviewing the patients. Many would arrive just out of the blue, no warning because they had been thrown out of their villages and thrown out of their families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And somebody had made the diagnosis then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.218134440177318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what I ended up you might you have asked me what I ended up doing at the hospital and what Ed ended up doing at the hospital. I and the medtech, Dr. Siles, was very interested in interviewing the patients. Many would arrive just out of the blue, no warning because they had been thrown out of their villages and thrown out of their families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And somebody had made the diagnosis then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And and they somebody had told them, well, there's a place that you could go to get treatment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Treatment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Treatment, to get help. Yeah. And she was very interested that those patients be interviewed and that some sort of record be established because she's trained as a graduate of the Harvard Medical School. Oh. So she understands communicable disease very well and she's interested in the demographics and creating a record. It's going on of the demographics of leprosy in Bolivia. And that may have been her real interest in taking this post to to begin with is instead of dealing with all of the rumors and mysticism and fear of leprosy, let's find out what the facts are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have to interrupt you for a second. There's a little red light that Bob said should be on and it's not on. Let me just check to see if this is working. All right, good. We were talking about the interview that Dr. Siles wanted to do."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.418565761560107, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. She's looking for where what part of the country the patients come from. Yeah. What kind of place is it? Now, what was their family situation? How the disease first manifest itself. What was the patient's experience between when the disease first showed up and when the patient arrived on her doorstep? But as important as this document and record was, she wanted to go the next step, which was to send a team from the leprosarium to the place where the patient came from to find the whatever medical personnel were there. You know, if they were a midwife, if they were a whatever a dentist or whatever. And to meet with those people, bring them literature about leprosy, do as possible a demonstration for the entire health care personnel of that place. So Irene, who was the medtech and me or her team to go out to these places and find where these people had come from and address the medical personnel if they would see us and in many cases they would not see us, they couldn't care less. Less because they too are not educated about the disease, but they know they don't want to be educated and they don't want to have anything to do with it. Yeah, and Irene prepared these beautiful slides and we had a wonderful presentation. And I still have one of our slides. Mycobacterium outbreak. Oh, looks just like the tubercle bacillus. So the minute if you can get somebody to listen to even one sentence of explanation which ties the leprosy bacillus to the tubercle bacillus, then people will begin to make the connection that you're never cured of tuberculosis. But tuberculosis can be rest. But few people would even let us get them before. So we would have our two slides, the tuberculosis and the mycobacterium leprosy side by side. You cannot make with the naked eye."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You cannot tell the difference. Isn't that interesting? Right. And so you and Irene, the other Peace Corps"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was the medtech."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She was from Bolivia V."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, Philadelphia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The two of you would go to outlying areas."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.242850846177896, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was the medtech."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She was from Bolivia V."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, Philadelphia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The two of you would go to outlying areas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wherever the patients came from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what kinds of things?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.158723162419884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, Philadelphia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The two of you would go to outlying areas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wherever the patients came from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what kinds of things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were back tracking the patients pathway to the hospital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So tell me about some of the places you would have had to go. How would you get there and how far awa?."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.176359069355426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wherever the patients came from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what kinds of things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were back tracking the patients pathway to the hospital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So tell me about some of the places you would have had to go. How would you get there and how far awa?."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Peace Corps to the hospital. OK, we had a big international, enormous international truck with a winch on the front so we could travel anywhere. We didn't even need a road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The winch on the front would be for,"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.30706563261714, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were back tracking the patients pathway to the hospital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So tell me about some of the places you would have had to go. How would you get there and how far awa?."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Peace Corps to the hospital. OK, we had a big international, enormous international truck with a winch on the front so we could travel anywhere. We didn't even need a road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The winch on the front would be for,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you do. You weighed you weighed. The truck would be on the side of the creek. You would take the take on loosen the chain from on. Oh. And wait across the creek and hook the chain to a tree on the other side and you would put your side across the stream was too deep for your truck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's how you got the truck across. So that's what you get yourself a foot."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.230072925130155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Peace Corps to the hospital. OK, we had a big international, enormous international truck with a winch on the front so we could travel anywhere. We didn't even need a road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The winch on the front would be for,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you do. You weighed you weighed. The truck would be on the side of the creek. You would take the take on loosen the chain from on. Oh. And wait across the creek and hook the chain to a tree on the other side and you would put your side across the stream was too deep for your truck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's how you got the truck across. So that's what you get yourself a foot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Yeah. Huh. So it's enormous. International Harvester truck, four wheel drive. But even the four wheel drive was not good enough for us all. But we all do. We all learned how Dr. Siles’s drove it. We all we all learned how to handle all of this equipment. Yeah. And and worked with the the farming aspect and with the patient over Londo, who was the supervisor of all of the grounds and the agricultural operation. And with Eddie and everybody's help to scrounge replacement parts for some of the farm equipment to be able to bring in used farm equipment. And Dr. Siles took the same approach with the hospital. Typically, pharmaceutical companies send out of date medicines to leprosarium around the world. This still happen today. That still happens today. Yeah. All right. These things are perfectly good to us. OK, do not be concerned. Dr. Siles, use them to save many lives. Yeah, yeah. But this is typically what we would get. Yes. Was she would dispense with everything from birth control pills to sulfur therapy for the leprosy patients. And she never turned down anything. So the people in the village across the creek conquered their fear of leprosy in order to get treatment from Dr. Siles, and it was the women, not the men,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, did this. So she was treating not just leprosy, but whatever people needed was the only game in town."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.160583858185376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Yeah. Huh. So it's enormous. International Harvester truck, four wheel drive. But even the four wheel drive was not good enough for us all. But we all do. We all learned how Dr. Siles’s drove it. We all we all learned how to handle all of this equipment. Yeah. And and worked with the the farming aspect and with the patient over Londo, who was the supervisor of all of the grounds and the agricultural operation. And with Eddie and everybody's help to scrounge replacement parts for some of the farm equipment to be able to bring in used farm equipment. And Dr. Siles took the same approach with the hospital. Typically, pharmaceutical companies send out of date medicines to leprosarium around the world. This still happen today. That still happens today. Yeah. All right. These things are perfectly good to us. OK, do not be concerned. Dr. Siles, use them to save many lives. Yeah, yeah. But this is typically what we would get. Yes. Was she would dispense with everything from birth control pills to sulfur therapy for the leprosy patients. And she never turned down anything. So the people in the village across the creek conquered their fear of leprosy in order to get treatment from Dr. Siles, and it was the women, not the men,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, did this. So she was treating not just leprosy, but whatever people needed was the only game in town."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So you can quickly over to overcome your fear. Leprosy. Your child is dying of diphtheria. Yes. Yes. Or if you have had eight pregnancies in nine years. So doctors who is very quietly on a birth control clinic out of the leprosarium, which"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine the men in town didn't quite know about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And if they did, they turned their backs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, I'd like to get back to you. And I mean, OK, going out and doing your International Harvester Monster truck or in a jeep, how far would you have to go? What was the furthest distance to it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.067315397983752, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So you can quickly over to overcome your fear. Leprosy. Your child is dying of diphtheria. Yes. Yes. Or if you have had eight pregnancies in nine years. So doctors who is very quietly on a birth control clinic out of the leprosarium, which"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine the men in town didn't quite know about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And if they did, they turned their backs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, I'd like to get back to you. And I mean, OK, going out and doing your International Harvester Monster truck or in a jeep, how far would you have to go? What was the furthest distance to it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it depended on where it depends entirely on where the patient came from. Most of these patients came from this transition cultural and altitude area between the highest part of Bolivia and the lowest part of Columbia. And this is, after all, where the good the leprosarium is located anywhere we're in this transition zone where it is not one hundred percent Spanish speaking. Neither is it is it one hundred percent casual speak. So the people who live there speak both."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's transitional, both in geography"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.9636837755375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And if they did, they turned their backs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, I'd like to get back to you. And I mean, OK, going out and doing your International Harvester Monster truck or in a jeep, how far would you have to go? What was the furthest distance to it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it depended on where it depends entirely on where the patient came from. Most of these patients came from this transition cultural and altitude area between the highest part of Bolivia and the lowest part of Columbia. And this is, after all, where the good the leprosarium is located anywhere we're in this transition zone where it is not one hundred percent Spanish speaking. Neither is it is it one hundred percent casual speak. So the people who live there speak both."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's transitional, both in geography"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in culture and language and as well as an altitude. OK, so most of the people came from and these are the eastern foothills of the Andes. So most of the people came from this area. So we would end up driving. Sometimes we would have to stay overnight, but typically it would be a place that we could go out and then"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Come back on a day. If you had to stay overnight, would you be put up in the family's home or you just crash there somehow"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.959648639486112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it depended on where it depends entirely on where the patient came from. Most of these patients came from this transition cultural and altitude area between the highest part of Bolivia and the lowest part of Columbia. And this is, after all, where the good the leprosarium is located anywhere we're in this transition zone where it is not one hundred percent Spanish speaking. Neither is it is it one hundred percent casual speak. So the people who live there speak both."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's transitional, both in geography"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in culture and language and as well as an altitude. OK, so most of the people came from and these are the eastern foothills of the Andes. So most of the people came from this area. So we would end up driving. Sometimes we would have to stay overnight, but typically it would be a place that we could go out and then"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Come back on a day. If you had to stay overnight, would you be put up in the family's home or you just crash there somehow"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or find a local currency on that because of pensión can also offer rooms as well as food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Irene would go out and you would try to get the attention of the medical personnel, correct? Did you also try to meet the families? I meet with the families of the people who had showed up and talk to them about,"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.066276266095679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in culture and language and as well as an altitude. OK, so most of the people came from and these are the eastern foothills of the Andes. So most of the people came from this area. So we would end up driving. Sometimes we would have to stay overnight, but typically it would be a place that we could go out and then"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Come back on a day. If you had to stay overnight, would you be put up in the family's home or you just crash there somehow"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or find a local currency on that because of pensión can also offer rooms as well as food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Irene would go out and you would try to get the attention of the medical personnel, correct? Did you also try to meet the families? I meet with the families of the people who had showed up and talk to them about,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, they would"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let us know if they would let you because they were you were kind of scary."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.295862517884087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or find a local currency on that because of pensión can also offer rooms as well as food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Irene would go out and you would try to get the attention of the medical personnel, correct? Did you also try to meet the families? I meet with the families of the people who had showed up and talk to them about,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, they would"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let us know if they would let you because they were you were kind of scary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had already, in many instances, closed the door on young or. I just see the families of the patients and the answer is yes, so you the shooting is educational. Yeah, it's not treatment, but and we would try to see the families and try to educate them about how leprosy is a disease of the mucous membranes and the peripheral nerves, peripheral nerves and mucous membranes. If it can be undignified early enough in the process, the progress of leprosy can be stopped in its tracks. So I mean, stop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is what the family of the sick person really urgently needs to know. They have been exposed and they need to know how to identify the early signs and do something correct."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.217625019871207, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, they would"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let us know if they would let you because they were you were kind of scary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had already, in many instances, closed the door on young or. I just see the families of the patients and the answer is yes, so you the shooting is educational. Yeah, it's not treatment, but and we would try to see the families and try to educate them about how leprosy is a disease of the mucous membranes and the peripheral nerves, peripheral nerves and mucous membranes. If it can be undignified early enough in the process, the progress of leprosy can be stopped in its tracks. So I mean, stop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is what the family of the sick person really urgently needs to know. They have been exposed and they need to know how to identify the early signs and do something correct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But if caught early enough, the disease can be arrested. If the person will stick to the soil for treatment for the rest of their lives and practice good hygiene and have good health. And all of this is a very problematical in a millennium. It's there's no reason that that person can't live a long life. And I can tell you that there were many long live people at the colony. And I'm talking 70s and 80s. And the typical life expectancy of a Bolivian is forty five years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, oh. Isn't that right? So what? So how did it seem to you in terms of your ability to get people to listen to you so that you could do the education that you wanted to do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.130694466523563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had already, in many instances, closed the door on young or. I just see the families of the patients and the answer is yes, so you the shooting is educational. Yeah, it's not treatment, but and we would try to see the families and try to educate them about how leprosy is a disease of the mucous membranes and the peripheral nerves, peripheral nerves and mucous membranes. If it can be undignified early enough in the process, the progress of leprosy can be stopped in its tracks. So I mean, stop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is what the family of the sick person really urgently needs to know. They have been exposed and they need to know how to identify the early signs and do something correct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But if caught early enough, the disease can be arrested. If the person will stick to the soil for treatment for the rest of their lives and practice good hygiene and have good health. And all of this is a very problematical in a millennium. It's there's no reason that that person can't live a long life. And I can tell you that there were many long live people at the colony. And I'm talking 70s and 80s. And the typical life expectancy of a Bolivian is forty five years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, oh. Isn't that right? So what? So how did it seem to you in terms of your ability to get people to listen to you so that you could do the education that you wanted to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it challenging the fear? I mean, everybody goes through word of mouth and those people who could read and read the Bible and the Bible, stories of leprosy and just just terror just know terror and and the and with leprosy, the opposite is true because it is not very communicable. You have to have direct skin to skin, skin to skin contact with a leprosy patient for a prolonged period of time in order to yourself come down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's not phlegm from coughing like TB. Oh, I know. I know I."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.14521607391507, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But if caught early enough, the disease can be arrested. If the person will stick to the soil for treatment for the rest of their lives and practice good hygiene and have good health. And all of this is a very problematical in a millennium. It's there's no reason that that person can't live a long life. And I can tell you that there were many long live people at the colony. And I'm talking 70s and 80s. And the typical life expectancy of a Bolivian is forty five years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, oh. Isn't that right? So what? So how did it seem to you in terms of your ability to get people to listen to you so that you could do the education that you wanted to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it challenging the fear? I mean, everybody goes through word of mouth and those people who could read and read the Bible and the Bible, stories of leprosy and just just terror just know terror and and the and with leprosy, the opposite is true because it is not very communicable. You have to have direct skin to skin, skin to skin contact with a leprosy patient for a prolonged period of time in order to yourself come down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's not phlegm from coughing like TB. Oh, I know. I know I."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So typically in a Bolivian household, the small children, the toddlers would sleep together. So that's a way to communicate to"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The husband to wife, correct."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.050240082127853, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it challenging the fear? I mean, everybody goes through word of mouth and those people who could read and read the Bible and the Bible, stories of leprosy and just just terror just know terror and and the and with leprosy, the opposite is true because it is not very communicable. You have to have direct skin to skin, skin to skin contact with a leprosy patient for a prolonged period of time in order to yourself come down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's not phlegm from coughing like TB. Oh, I know. I know I."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So typically in a Bolivian household, the small children, the toddlers would sleep together. So that's a way to communicate to"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The husband to wife, correct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it will not show up in some cases four years later. So people can have been they can they will have contracted leprosy years ago. Then all of a sudden they're teenagers or they're adults. And the first symptoms of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do looking back, do you feel that there were moments of did you have some moments of success that felt like successes for you? Would you like to talk about a couple of"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.055822313475392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So typically in a Bolivian household, the small children, the toddlers would sleep together. So that's a way to communicate to"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The husband to wife, correct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it will not show up in some cases four years later. So people can have been they can they will have contracted leprosy years ago. Then all of a sudden they're teenagers or they're adults. And the first symptoms of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do looking back, do you feel that there were moments of did you have some moments of success that felt like successes for you? Would you like to talk about a couple of"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like the whole thing was a success from from day one, from the worry Dr. Siles received us. And from the way that we were treated and certainly the patients. Holy cow. You couldn't ask for a more terrific cash if you could bear to look up, because in many cases, the poor, the progress of the disease had ravaged them to such an extent that they were I mean, she was very skilled in surgery in terms of repairing fingers and repairing toes and repairing ears, because this is the disease of the peripheral nerves. You can touch something that's hot and not rely so frequently. The patient before he arrived, he or she arrives at the hospital will have developed anesthesia in the in the fingers and in the toes and either cut themselves or get themselves burned. And then the problem is not leprosy. The problem is the infection that develops. So she was very skilled with a knife in terms of treating disfigurement. But there was only so much you can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a sense that there were some successes, too, in those families and outlying medical people who would come around and be willing to listen to"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.173135903861548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it will not show up in some cases four years later. So people can have been they can they will have contracted leprosy years ago. Then all of a sudden they're teenagers or they're adults. And the first symptoms of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do looking back, do you feel that there were moments of did you have some moments of success that felt like successes for you? Would you like to talk about a couple of"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like the whole thing was a success from from day one, from the worry Dr. Siles received us. And from the way that we were treated and certainly the patients. Holy cow. You couldn't ask for a more terrific cash if you could bear to look up, because in many cases, the poor, the progress of the disease had ravaged them to such an extent that they were I mean, she was very skilled in surgery in terms of repairing fingers and repairing toes and repairing ears, because this is the disease of the peripheral nerves. You can touch something that's hot and not rely so frequently. The patient before he arrived, he or she arrives at the hospital will have developed anesthesia in the in the fingers and in the toes and either cut themselves or get themselves burned. And then the problem is not leprosy. The problem is the infection that develops. So she was very skilled with a knife in terms of treating disfigurement. But there was only so much you can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a sense that there were some successes, too, in those families and outlying medical people who would come around and be willing to listen to"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Such a long process and what Dr. Siles hoped was to attract Bolivian medical personnel to work at the hospital?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, of course, that would be the ultimate"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 12.414595448735053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like the whole thing was a success from from day one, from the worry Dr. Siles received us. And from the way that we were treated and certainly the patients. Holy cow. You couldn't ask for a more terrific cash if you could bear to look up, because in many cases, the poor, the progress of the disease had ravaged them to such an extent that they were I mean, she was very skilled in surgery in terms of repairing fingers and repairing toes and repairing ears, because this is the disease of the peripheral nerves. You can touch something that's hot and not rely so frequently. The patient before he arrived, he or she arrives at the hospital will have developed anesthesia in the in the fingers and in the toes and either cut themselves or get themselves burned. And then the problem is not leprosy. The problem is the infection that develops. So she was very skilled with a knife in terms of treating disfigurement. But there was only so much you can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a sense that there were some successes, too, in those families and outlying medical people who would come around and be willing to listen to"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Such a long process and what Dr. Siles hoped was to attract Bolivian medical personnel to work at the hospital?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, of course, that would be the ultimate"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Life long goal, because that's not something that happens overnight"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it needs to happen also in the medical schools. That would be correct. And people need to be educated on so many levels. Did you ever get a break from vacation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.016217165261171, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Such a long process and what Dr. Siles hoped was to attract Bolivian medical personnel to work at the hospital?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, of course, that would be the ultimate"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Life long goal, because that's not something that happens overnight"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it needs to happen also in the medical schools. That would be correct. And people need to be educated on so many levels. Did you ever get a break from vacation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yes. I went to Brazil on vacation, went to Rio, went to some zone and Paraguay, Buenos Aires in Argentina. Cusco and Machu Picchu in Peru."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wonderful. What a great way to do it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.573574628067968, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Life long goal, because that's not something that happens overnight"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it needs to happen also in the medical schools. That would be correct. And people need to be educated on so many levels. Did you ever get a break from vacation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yes. I went to Brazil on vacation, went to Rio, went to some zone and Paraguay, Buenos Aires in Argentina. Cusco and Machu Picchu in Peru."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wonderful. What a great way to do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And saved money on my fifty dollars a month Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yes, of course. Yes, yes, yes. And did did Peace Corps ever come to observe you or to visit you? Did you have visits from Peace Corps staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.081749586742187, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yes. I went to Brazil on vacation, went to Rio, went to some zone and Paraguay, Buenos Aires in Argentina. Cusco and Machu Picchu in Peru."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wonderful. What a great way to do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And saved money on my fifty dollars a month Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yes, of course. Yes, yes, yes. And did did Peace Corps ever come to observe you or to visit you? Did you have visits from Peace Corps staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You see, our public health director in Bolivia was with us in Washington. He was on the staff of the School of Public Health at the University of Washington, Mike McCluskey's. So he and his wife lived in Bolivia with us. We come to Los Negros and so would Ambassador Henderson come to. Oh, I still believe I have a group picture of all of us with patients, with Ambassador Anderson, Mrs. Henderson, Dr. Siles, all of our all the volunteers, everybody. That most negative, nothing on the ground, so that's terrific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you ever consider donating that photo to the Kennedy Library for their archives? It's quite a unique situation. Yeah. You know, there can't be"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.64638842971354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And saved money on my fifty dollars a month Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yes, of course. Yes, yes, yes. And did did Peace Corps ever come to observe you or to visit you? Did you have visits from Peace Corps staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You see, our public health director in Bolivia was with us in Washington. He was on the staff of the School of Public Health at the University of Washington, Mike McCluskey's. So he and his wife lived in Bolivia with us. We come to Los Negros and so would Ambassador Henderson come to. Oh, I still believe I have a group picture of all of us with patients, with Ambassador Anderson, Mrs. Henderson, Dr. Siles, all of our all the volunteers, everybody. That most negative, nothing on the ground, so that's terrific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you ever consider donating that photo to the Kennedy Library for their archives? It's quite a unique situation. Yeah. You know, there can't be"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many Peace Corps volunteer experiences like. No, that was very"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is truly unique. So all this you're there for two"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.162653810792822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You see, our public health director in Bolivia was with us in Washington. He was on the staff of the School of Public Health at the University of Washington, Mike McCluskey's. So he and his wife lived in Bolivia with us. We come to Los Negros and so would Ambassador Henderson come to. Oh, I still believe I have a group picture of all of us with patients, with Ambassador Anderson, Mrs. Henderson, Dr. Siles, all of our all the volunteers, everybody. That most negative, nothing on the ground, so that's terrific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you ever consider donating that photo to the Kennedy Library for their archives? It's quite a unique situation. Yeah. You know, there can't be"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many Peace Corps volunteer experiences like. No, that was very"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is truly unique. So all this you're there for two"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Years, you know, you have to wait until you're replaced on a project like this, there's no such thing as a tour of duty. They're waiting for the right person to come along. And I say willing to see the same thing with Irene because normally a medtech is not trained in education. But everyone was a natural. She was just outgoing. She had the most enthusiasm about speaking Spanish and her accent was awful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, she's spoken enthusiastically."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.736282011992024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many Peace Corps volunteer experiences like. No, that was very"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is truly unique. So all this you're there for two"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Years, you know, you have to wait until you're replaced on a project like this, there's no such thing as a tour of duty. They're waiting for the right person to come along. And I say willing to see the same thing with Irene because normally a medtech is not trained in education. But everyone was a natural. She was just outgoing. She had the most enthusiasm about speaking Spanish and her accent was awful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, she's spoken enthusiastically."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she and she developed quite a facility with vocabulary and could connect with the medical personnel. We went out on our visit. She always wore a lab coat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all things are important."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.151424457768916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Years, you know, you have to wait until you're replaced on a project like this, there's no such thing as a tour of duty. They're waiting for the right person to come along. And I say willing to see the same thing with Irene because normally a medtech is not trained in education. But everyone was a natural. She was just outgoing. She had the most enthusiasm about speaking Spanish and her accent was awful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, she's spoken enthusiastically."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she and she developed quite a facility with vocabulary and could connect with the medical personnel. We went out on our visit. She always wore a lab coat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all things are important."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So you wait for the right person to come along. So I wasn't replaced until about two and a half years. OK, so that's why I didn't end up coming back to 1966. I see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there were two nurses who had been in conflict"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.612693841965462, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she and she developed quite a facility with vocabulary and could connect with the medical personnel. We went out on our visit. She always wore a lab coat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And all things are important."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So you wait for the right person to come along. So I wasn't replaced until about two and a half years. OK, so that's why I didn't end up coming back to 1966. I see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there were two nurses who had been in conflict"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the doctor,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the doctor about her procedures or something. But it's less important what the conflict was than how it was resolved. Did they remain there for their entire two years."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.125215379961624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So you wait for the right person to come along. So I wasn't replaced until about two and a half years. OK, so that's why I didn't end up coming back to 1966. I see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there were two nurses who had been in conflict"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the doctor,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the doctor about her procedures or something. But it's less important what the conflict was than how it was resolved. Did they remain there for their entire two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, he's never eased out very, very tactfully. Lots of face saving on everybody's part and move to a hospital setting where they were more comfortable. And meanwhile, Peace Corps was getting more adept in terms of identifying nurses who could not only survive in this kind of atmosphere, but thrive. OK, so the next batch of nurses who arrived were terrific gals. I mean, talk about being able to cope, you know, just bring it on. Whatever you got. Just let me at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Isn't it good to find"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.694683755512915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the doctor,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the doctor about her procedures or something. But it's less important what the conflict was than how it was resolved. Did they remain there for their entire two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, he's never eased out very, very tactfully. Lots of face saving on everybody's part and move to a hospital setting where they were more comfortable. And meanwhile, Peace Corps was getting more adept in terms of identifying nurses who could not only survive in this kind of atmosphere, but thrive. OK, so the next batch of nurses who arrived were terrific gals. I mean, talk about being able to cope, you know, just bring it on. Whatever you got. Just let me at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Isn't it good to find"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Out what's so flexible, outgoing and able to connect with Doctor Siles, is always very respectful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would think that would be built in tension. If you were trained in the medical profession in the United States and had a certain way of doing things that was the right way. And then to go to another country where it's done differently and you think incorrectly how to. It seems like it's a tricky balancing act, is to know where to try to change it and where to work within the parameters that are set by the local country, even if they're less than ideal."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:367", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.030473772238166, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Out what's so flexible, outgoing and able to connect with Doctor Siles, is always very respectful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would think that would be built in tension. If you were trained in the medical profession in the United States and had a certain way of doing things that was the right way. And then to go to another country where it's done differently and you think incorrectly how to. It seems like it's a tricky balancing act, is to know where to try to change it and where to work within the parameters that are set by the local country, even if they're less than ideal."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They thought they were awful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, by what they knew, it was totally substandard. Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference. It is what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's all we've got. Yes. Yes. And people have worked hard to establish their right. When we were in training for Peace Corps, there was a lot of talk about culture shock and we were told that somewhere after the second or third month we have perhaps a dip in our enthusiasm or feel homesick. Did that ever happen to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.5894153024868505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They thought they were awful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, by what they knew, it was totally substandard. Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference. It is what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's all we've got. Yes. Yes. And people have worked hard to establish their right. When we were in training for Peace Corps, there was a lot of talk about culture shock and we were told that somewhere after the second or third month we have perhaps a dip in our enthusiasm or feel homesick. Did that ever happen to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose, but I don't remember it. I don't remember being particularly homesick or I suppose a little bit of maybe depression set in after. This this job site, let's face it, that I had I mean, it was depressing from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, if you looked at it that way, then if you turn the coin over. Culture shock, I mean, the whole thing is a shock, Carville Louisiana was a shock. Oh, God, I haven't even left the country, you know. And so the culture shock started in the United States"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During all this time. You had a mother and a father. Your father was needing special care at home. Your mother was home. You had two sisters. Were you communicating with them? Were you sending letters?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.0993503360965, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, by what they knew, it was totally substandard. Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference. It is what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's all we've got. Yes. Yes. And people have worked hard to establish their right. When we were in training for Peace Corps, there was a lot of talk about culture shock and we were told that somewhere after the second or third month we have perhaps a dip in our enthusiasm or feel homesick. Did that ever happen to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose, but I don't remember it. I don't remember being particularly homesick or I suppose a little bit of maybe depression set in after. This this job site, let's face it, that I had I mean, it was depressing from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, if you looked at it that way, then if you turn the coin over. Culture shock, I mean, the whole thing is a shock, Carville Louisiana was a shock. Oh, God, I haven't even left the country, you know. And so the culture shock started in the United States"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During all this time. You had a mother and a father. Your father was needing special care at home. Your mother was home. You had two sisters. Were you communicating with them? Were you sending letters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Letters? My brother came to visit me every day. Yes. Yes, he came to visit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my. That's a student in Bolivia."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.665944817885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose, but I don't remember it. I don't remember being particularly homesick or I suppose a little bit of maybe depression set in after. This this job site, let's face it, that I had I mean, it was depressing from the beginning of the day to the end of the day, if you looked at it that way, then if you turn the coin over. Culture shock, I mean, the whole thing is a shock, Carville Louisiana was a shock. Oh, God, I haven't even left the country, you know. And so the culture shock started in the United States"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During all this time. You had a mother and a father. Your father was needing special care at home. Your mother was home. You had two sisters. Were you communicating with them? Were you sending letters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Letters? My brother came to visit me every day. Yes. Yes, he came to visit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my. That's a student in Bolivia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to Peru together. I photographed us in Machu Picchu together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How fun. What did he think of Los Negros?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.295494242094445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Letters? My brother came to visit me every day. Yes. Yes, he came to visit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my. That's a student in Bolivia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to Peru together. I photographed us in Machu Picchu together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How fun. What did he think of Los Negros?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think he ever made it Los Negros. You know. Yeah. If you make it to La Paz, you got a long way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "True. And there's plenty there's so much you want to do. And he's got a short time. I could I could understand that. And of course, I'm imagining that where you lived in your room in that gross granted. That's right. It was two miles away from Los Negros. You probably. Did you have electricity there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.883882491216049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to Peru together. I photographed us in Machu Picchu together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How fun. What did he think of Los Negros?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think he ever made it Los Negros. You know. Yeah. If you make it to La Paz, you got a long way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "True. And there's plenty there's so much you want to do. And he's got a short time. I could I could understand that. And of course, I'm imagining that where you lived in your room in that gross granted. That's right. It was two miles away from Los Negros. You probably. Did you have electricity there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had my Oil-Field lamp. Yes, my mosquito netting for my bed. I bought a guitar in the village large village to the south of Pampagrande, which was called Vallegrande. And I taught myself to play the guitar. And one of a volunteer who arrived after me at a project nearby played the banjo. And we would get together. He would come over and we would play. And he would bring me and he would bring a guitar scoring, you know, tablature guitar, and we would teach each other folk songs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well do we go with some of those folk songs? Who are the most gracious?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.315424990240054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think he ever made it Los Negros. You know. Yeah. If you make it to La Paz, you got a long way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "True. And there's plenty there's so much you want to do. And he's got a short time. I could I could understand that. And of course, I'm imagining that where you lived in your room in that gross granted. That's right. It was two miles away from Los Negros. You probably. Did you have electricity there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had my Oil-Field lamp. Yes, my mosquito netting for my bed. I bought a guitar in the village large village to the south of Pampagrande, which was called Vallegrande. And I taught myself to play the guitar. And one of a volunteer who arrived after me at a project nearby played the banjo. And we would get together. He would come over and we would play. And he would bring me and he would bring a guitar scoring, you know, tablature guitar, and we would teach each other folk songs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well do we go with some of those folk songs? Who are the most gracious?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the standard kind of, you know, Woody Guthrie, American folk songs from Appalachian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so forth. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.7949166558222815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had my Oil-Field lamp. Yes, my mosquito netting for my bed. I bought a guitar in the village large village to the south of Pampagrande, which was called Vallegrande. And I taught myself to play the guitar. And one of a volunteer who arrived after me at a project nearby played the banjo. And we would get together. He would come over and we would play. And he would bring me and he would bring a guitar scoring, you know, tablature guitar, and we would teach each other folk songs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well do we go with some of those folk songs? Who are the most gracious?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the standard kind of, you know, Woody Guthrie, American folk songs from Appalachian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so forth. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wonder. But we also from the patient there were I the the musicians among the patients were so delighted to see me take up the guitar. Oh. That they would take time there. Bolivian guitars are smaller than ours, six strings nevertheless. And they would teach me the Bolivian rhythm"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name for the guitar. It's smaller guitar, you know. Slightly smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Acoustic guitar, slightly smaller. And they just joined with"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.327685173135868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the standard kind of, you know, Woody Guthrie, American folk songs from Appalachian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so forth. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wonder. But we also from the patient there were I the the musicians among the patients were so delighted to see me take up the guitar. Oh. That they would take time there. Bolivian guitars are smaller than ours, six strings nevertheless. And they would teach me the Bolivian rhythm"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name for the guitar. It's smaller guitar, you know. Slightly smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Acoustic guitar, slightly smaller. And they just joined with"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Me because I'm not a big person anyway. But they would teach me the Bolivian rhythms and Bolivian songs. And of course, way back in Seattle, we were taught Bolivian songs. We were taught Bolivian dances to dances. In the evenings we would only dance Bolivian dance one. And they were delighted that it and I could manage a few steps and some traditional Bolivian dance and we would get together and sing and play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever put on Bolivian clothes?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.919650192373187, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wonder. But we also from the patient there were I the the musicians among the patients were so delighted to see me take up the guitar. Oh. That they would take time there. Bolivian guitars are smaller than ours, six strings nevertheless. And they would teach me the Bolivian rhythm"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name for the guitar. It's smaller guitar, you know. Slightly smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Acoustic guitar, slightly smaller. And they just joined with"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Me because I'm not a big person anyway. But they would teach me the Bolivian rhythms and Bolivian songs. And of course, way back in Seattle, we were taught Bolivian songs. We were taught Bolivian dances to dances. In the evenings we would only dance Bolivian dance one. And they were delighted that it and I could manage a few steps and some traditional Bolivian dance and we would get together and sing and play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever put on Bolivian clothes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. And I never wore a hospital clothes either. I just always wore my normal clothes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so forth and so on. I'm thinking women there didn't wear pants, but you"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:393", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.907255284824243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And oh no. I maybe on my own time I would, I would wear some pants but I think I pretty much because of the visibility of the project. Yeah. You know, you kind of want to tow the line in terms of what the expectations show you and skirt was the expectation, right. But I do want to tell you, starting with music for a minute in Cochabamba, where we can get to by bus in about a half a day. There were wonderful folk clubs where you could go and for, you know, the equivalent of a nickel buy a glass of chicha, which is their fermented corn drink and listen to folk music for an entire night. And we would do that. And it was just fantastic because we would strum the guitar this way down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On on the strong beat of the measure. It's a downbeat for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the strong beats of the measure. It's an upbeat for them and for them. Yes, it's an upbeat for them. And that was so everything to the western ear is disjointed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not the time"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.452505872026936, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On on the strong beat of the measure. It's a downbeat for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the strong beats of the measure. It's an upbeat for them and for them. Yes, it's an upbeat for them. And that was so everything to the western ear is disjointed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not the time"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And ours is da da dah dah. So it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just wonderful that I just came away with such an appreciation for their music and dance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even in the leprosarium people there were musicians there, mostly bad musicians."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.058339857807707, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the strong beats of the measure. It's an upbeat for them and for them. Yes, it's an upbeat for them. And that was so everything to the western ear is disjointed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not the time"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And ours is da da dah dah. So it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just wonderful that I just came away with such an appreciation for their music and dance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even in the leprosarium people there were musicians there, mostly bad musicians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Singers. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. Yes. I mean it was a cross-section of of that part of Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a social world going on there too within the people who lived in, you know, children. Does that mean there were no children with leprosy or they won't"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.620377619786341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And ours is da da dah dah. So it was wonderful. Yeah. It was just wonderful that I just came away with such an appreciation for their music and dance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even in the leprosarium people there were musicians there, mostly bad musicians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Singers. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. Yes. I mean it was a cross-section of of that part of Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a social world going on there too within the people who lived in, you know, children. Does that mean there were no children with leprosy or they won't"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go there, just that the children never made it to the colony? For the most part they would there would be turned out of their homes. There would be so young they would probably die along the way or get lost or never make it. So the youngest, I would say, would probably be maybe 10 or 11, but not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know nothing over the last 10 or 11 with the expectation that the rest of their life was going to be there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.2448640219848235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Singers. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. Yes. I mean it was a cross-section of of that part of Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a social world going on there too within the people who lived in, you know, children. Does that mean there were no children with leprosy or they won't"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go there, just that the children never made it to the colony? For the most part they would there would be turned out of their homes. There would be so young they would probably die along the way or get lost or never make it. So the youngest, I would say, would probably be maybe 10 or 11, but not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know nothing over the last 10 or 11 with the expectation that the rest of their life was going to be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet you that there was no in Bolivia at that time. And probably the same is true today. There was no concept of those people returning to their normal life. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dr. Siles did a heroic thing with her life dedicated to that particular community. Second, you was there. Was there any difference between"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.93873780220536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go there, just that the children never made it to the colony? For the most part they would there would be turned out of their homes. There would be so young they would probably die along the way or get lost or never make it. So the youngest, I would say, would probably be maybe 10 or 11, but not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know nothing over the last 10 or 11 with the expectation that the rest of their life was going to be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet you that there was no in Bolivia at that time. And probably the same is true today. There was no concept of those people returning to their normal life. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dr. Siles did a heroic thing with her life dedicated to that particular community. Second, you was there. Was there any difference between"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kept getting more better trained volunteers, OK, more volunteers who knew what to expect and were trained specifically for that project as opposed to me and Ed who were just plucked off a tree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Last minute, yeah. I'm coming to the end of your tour. Was there when you saw that you'd be going home in a few months when you knew that. Did you have any special things you hope to accomplish in the last month or two?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:405", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.709708669117066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet you that there was no in Bolivia at that time. And probably the same is true today. There was no concept of those people returning to their normal life. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dr. Siles did a heroic thing with her life dedicated to that particular community. Second, you was there. Was there any difference between"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kept getting more better trained volunteers, OK, more volunteers who knew what to expect and were trained specifically for that project as opposed to me and Ed who were just plucked off a tree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Last minute, yeah. I'm coming to the end of your tour. Was there when you saw that you'd be going home in a few months when you knew that. Did you have any special things you hope to accomplish in the last month or two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's not like a typical Peace Corps experience where, you know, you have your own you have set a goal for yourself and you're trying to reach that goal. These were Dr. Siles’s goals that we were trying to reach. So I felt satisfied and meeting any of any any of her expectations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you would be off also doing these interviews,"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:407", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.566342965685628, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kept getting more better trained volunteers, OK, more volunteers who knew what to expect and were trained specifically for that project as opposed to me and Ed who were just plucked off a tree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Last minute, yeah. I'm coming to the end of your tour. Was there when you saw that you'd be going home in a few months when you knew that. Did you have any special things you hope to accomplish in the last month or two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's not like a typical Peace Corps experience where, you know, you have your own you have set a goal for yourself and you're trying to reach that goal. These were Dr. Siles’s goals that we were trying to reach. So I felt satisfied and meeting any of any any of her expectations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you would be off also doing these interviews,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every interview, the patients, when they arrived at the hospital and even doing such things as there was no record system. So I had to set up all the references. I had been no no diseases in the in the way that disease history to take in the way that we would do it today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it seems like you had kind of a dual role. One was interviewing the patients upon their arrival and keeping organizing a system for record keeping and then also leaving La Colonia to go out to the places where these people came from to talk to their families into whatever local medical personnel leave some literature. Right. For education."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.51815885076181, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's not like a typical Peace Corps experience where, you know, you have your own you have set a goal for yourself and you're trying to reach that goal. These were Dr. Siles’s goals that we were trying to reach. So I felt satisfied and meeting any of any any of her expectations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you would be off also doing these interviews,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every interview, the patients, when they arrived at the hospital and even doing such things as there was no record system. So I had to set up all the references. I had been no no diseases in the in the way that disease history to take in the way that we would do it today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it seems like you had kind of a dual role. One was interviewing the patients upon their arrival and keeping organizing a system for record keeping and then also leaving La Colonia to go out to the places where these people came from to talk to their families into whatever local medical personnel leave some literature. Right. For education."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was not trained to write in Spanish, but I taught myself. Oh, yeah, in Spanish. For purposes of work,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's easier than teaching yourself to write English now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.57573205640201, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every interview, the patients, when they arrived at the hospital and even doing such things as there was no record system. So I had to set up all the references. I had been no no diseases in the in the way that disease history to take in the way that we would do it today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it seems like you had kind of a dual role. One was interviewing the patients upon their arrival and keeping organizing a system for record keeping and then also leaving La Colonia to go out to the places where these people came from to talk to their families into whatever local medical personnel leave some literature. Right. For education."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was not trained to write in Spanish, but I taught myself. Oh, yeah, in Spanish. For purposes of work,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's easier than teaching yourself to write English now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, no, I won't say I ever got the the real knack of where to put the modifiers in the sentence because I tend to write back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yeah, it was that it's intelligible and then it's good that you're communicating. Your idea clearly is much more important than getting a grammar."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:413", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.750813396002233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was not trained to write in Spanish, but I taught myself. Oh, yeah, in Spanish. For purposes of work,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's easier than teaching yourself to write English now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, no, I won't say I ever got the the real knack of where to put the modifiers in the sentence because I tend to write back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yeah, it was that it's intelligible and then it's good that you're communicating. Your idea clearly is much more important than getting a grammar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had, I had, I had the right vocabulary. Yeah. I like the sentence structure. Probably left a lot to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you come to the end of your time, your replacement is has been found and you're anticipating going home. What plans did you have for yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:415", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.834237106669146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, no, I won't say I ever got the the real knack of where to put the modifiers in the sentence because I tend to write back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yeah, it was that it's intelligible and then it's good that you're communicating. Your idea clearly is much more important than getting a grammar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had, I had, I had the right vocabulary. Yeah. I like the sentence structure. Probably left a lot to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you come to the end of your time, your replacement is has been found and you're anticipating going home. What plans did you have for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had applied to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and had been accepted, but that would be in the fall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was now when?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.59359678518794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had, I had, I had the right vocabulary. Yeah. I like the sentence structure. Probably left a lot to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you come to the end of your time, your replacement is has been found and you're anticipating going home. What plans did you have for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had applied to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and had been accepted, but that would be in the fall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was now when?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "‘66 March, April. So the the public health school in Seattle was still training volunteers, so they had an opening and a training program. And so for me, I worked in that training program. And then and then in the summer I went to Santa Fe and worked in another training program and then went on to graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the graduate school was used it in Chapel Hill, North Chapel Hill. And what were you studying?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:419", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.215107539097711, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had applied to graduate school at the University of North Carolina and had been accepted, but that would be in the fall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was now when?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "‘66 March, April. So the the public health school in Seattle was still training volunteers, so they had an opening and a training program. And so for me, I worked in that training program. And then and then in the summer I went to Santa Fe and worked in another training program and then went on to graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the graduate school was used it in Chapel Hill, North Chapel Hill. And what were you studying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had applied for a doctoral program in Latin American history. And I spent two years and I got a MA and I decided I did not want to be a college teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were content with the MA?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:421", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.905675043441901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "‘66 March, April. So the the public health school in Seattle was still training volunteers, so they had an opening and a training program. And so for me, I worked in that training program. And then and then in the summer I went to Santa Fe and worked in another training program and then went on to graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the graduate school was used it in Chapel Hill, North Chapel Hill. And what were you studying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had applied for a doctoral program in Latin American history. And I spent two years and I got a MA and I decided I did not want to be a college teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were content with the MA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was an MA in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:425", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.525524744990001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was an MA in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Latin American history. And I think I managed to finagle a minor in computer science."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just doing it on my own. Not not not because they worked together or anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those very early days of computers. And, um, when you got back from Bolivia, did you come straight home from La Paz or did you travel a bit?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:427", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.3616941611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Latin American history. And I think I managed to finagle a minor in computer science."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just doing it on my own. Not not not because they worked together or anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those very early days of computers. And, um, when you got back from Bolivia, did you come straight home from La Paz or did you travel a bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On my way home? No, the flights were La Paz, Lima, Lima, Miami, and then from Miami, you would make a connection to wherever you were going,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't take vacation time on the way back. You were anxious to get home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:429", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.179660179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just doing it on my own. Not not not because they worked together or anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those very early days of computers. And, um, when you got back from Bolivia, did you come straight home from La Paz or did you travel a bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On my way home? No, the flights were La Paz, Lima, Lima, Miami, and then from Miami, you would make a connection to wherever you were going,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't take vacation time on the way back. You were anxious to get home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was headed to Seattle, Washington for a job. I did stop in at home to see my father visit my brother, visit my sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your mother was still there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.088511310000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On my way home? No, the flights were La Paz, Lima, Lima, Miami, and then from Miami, you would make a connection to wherever you were going,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't take vacation time on the way back. You were anxious to get home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was headed to Seattle, Washington for a job. I did stop in at home to see my father visit my brother, visit my sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your mother was still there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother had passed away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in Bolivia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:433", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.098345900000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was headed to Seattle, Washington for a job. I did stop in at home to see my father visit my brother, visit my sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your mother was still there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother had passed away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right before I started training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I'm sorry. Right before that, she had been so supportive. Yes. All right. All right. I'm sorry she couldn't have heard your story, but everything. Absolutely. And what what was your reaction to the US when you got home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:435", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.887051000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother had passed away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right before I started training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I'm sorry. Right before that, she had been so supportive. Yes. All right. All right. I'm sorry she couldn't have heard your story, but everything. Absolutely. And what what was your reaction to the US when you got home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I couldn't believe it. Sitting in the Miami airport, I remember I was by myself, traveling alone, and waiting for my flight and have a long layover. I just felt. We were such a wasteful country. Yeah, I had no clue about the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lived and how the rest of the world could live for a month on what we would throw away in 48 hours. And I just. I just couldn't fathom it. I had a really difficult time coming to grips with American affluence. Yeah, yeah, I would say it was a matter of months and months, if not more months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I'm seeing how that affects your life, even today, you and your husband have given up your car and walk and ride the busses, and I wonder, would you have had that determination to do that had you not had your experience in the Peace Corps in Bolivia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:437", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.763390000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right before I started training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I'm sorry. Right before that, she had been so supportive. Yes. All right. All right. I'm sorry she couldn't have heard your story, but everything. Absolutely. And what what was your reaction to the US when you got home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I couldn't believe it. Sitting in the Miami airport, I remember I was by myself, traveling alone, and waiting for my flight and have a long layover. I just felt. We were such a wasteful country. Yeah, I had no clue about the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lived and how the rest of the world could live for a month on what we would throw away in 48 hours. And I just. I just couldn't fathom it. I had a really difficult time coming to grips with American affluence. Yeah, yeah, I would say it was a matter of months and months, if not more months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I'm seeing how that affects your life, even today, you and your husband have given up your car and walk and ride the busses, and I wonder, would you have had that determination to do that had you not had your experience in the Peace Corps in Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question, Phyllis, I don't know. I, I expect it was a factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because both of you had experience with it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:439", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.737100000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I couldn't believe it. Sitting in the Miami airport, I remember I was by myself, traveling alone, and waiting for my flight and have a long layover. I just felt. We were such a wasteful country. Yeah, I had no clue about the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lived and how the rest of the world could live for a month on what we would throw away in 48 hours. And I just. I just couldn't fathom it. I had a really difficult time coming to grips with American affluence. Yeah, yeah, I would say it was a matter of months and months, if not more months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I'm seeing how that affects your life, even today, you and your husband have given up your car and walk and ride the busses, and I wonder, would you have had that determination to do that had you not had your experience in the Peace Corps in Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question, Phyllis, I don't know. I, I expect it was a factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because both of you had experience with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And neither one of us came from well to do or even middle class. Yeah, no, we both came from working class family. So not family's accustomed to a lot of things and a lot of comfort and privilege or no privilege at all. But. Yeah, I expect it was an important factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, let's just briefly take a little side trip here and tell me the story of how you met Adam. He was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia but later"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:443", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.91, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And neither one of us came from well to do or even middle class. Yeah, no, we both came from working class family. So not family's accustomed to a lot of things and a lot of comfort and privilege or no privilege at all. But. Yeah, I expect it was an important factor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, let's just briefly take a little side trip here and tell me the story of how you met Adam. He was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia but later"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was in the training group that I was sent to work with in Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He and his wife were in that group. I met them and along with everybody else in the in the group and did my job and then went on to Santa Fe and then went on to graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you remember them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:447", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He and his wife were in that group. I met them and along with everybody else in the in the group and did my job and then went on to Santa Fe and then went on to graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you remember them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Years years later, years later, keeping track of Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for a foundation in Central America and the Caribbean for two years traveling, representing this foundation after graduate school. And they would send me to programs here in Boston. And eventually I left being tired of traveling and settled here and started a career as a fundraiser. And, oh, I had worked at Tufts for raising money and was working at M.I.T. and was interested in moving on and was interviewing for a job as a fundraiser for the American Bar Association in Chicago. And I called a bunch of volunteers that I knew in Chicago asking, you know, is anybody free to have dinner the night? Because I'm only going to be in Chicago one night and I'm going on to Los Angeles for another interview."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you still had contact with RPCVs? You know with the Bolivia volunteers."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Years years later, years later, keeping track of Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for a foundation in Central America and the Caribbean for two years traveling, representing this foundation after graduate school. And they would send me to programs here in Boston. And eventually I left being tired of traveling and settled here and started a career as a fundraiser. And, oh, I had worked at Tufts for raising money and was working at M.I.T. and was interested in moving on and was interviewing for a job as a fundraiser for the American Bar Association in Chicago. And I called a bunch of volunteers that I knew in Chicago asking, you know, is anybody free to have dinner the night? Because I'm only going to be in Chicago one night and I'm going on to Los Angeles for another interview."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you still had contact with RPCVs? You know with the Bolivia volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure. Yes, just informal. And Adam was the only one who had the evening free. So we met he met my plane and we had dinner together and he was by that time divorced and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the rest is history."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for a foundation in Central America and the Caribbean for two years traveling, representing this foundation after graduate school. And they would send me to programs here in Boston. And eventually I left being tired of traveling and settled here and started a career as a fundraiser. And, oh, I had worked at Tufts for raising money and was working at M.I.T. and was interested in moving on and was interviewing for a job as a fundraiser for the American Bar Association in Chicago. And I called a bunch of volunteers that I knew in Chicago asking, you know, is anybody free to have dinner the night? Because I'm only going to be in Chicago one night and I'm going on to Los Angeles for another interview."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you still had contact with RPCVs? You know with the Bolivia volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure. Yes, just informal. And Adam was the only one who had the evening free. So we met he met my plane and we had dinner together and he was by that time divorced and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the rest is history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we got reacquainted, beginning then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very, very nice. Very, very nice. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Peace Corps either and how he how it's affected your life or what you might say to a young person today about Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:453", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure. Yes, just informal. And Adam was the only one who had the evening free. So we met he met my plane and we had dinner together and he was by that time divorced and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the rest is history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we got reacquainted, beginning then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very, very nice. Very, very nice. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Peace Corps either and how he how it's affected your life or what you might say to a young person today about Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think you don't know your capability, your real capability, until you’re faced with very difficult circumstances, challenges, and it's a great, it's a great thing to learn that you're far far more than you thought you than you have ever imagined. So I'm writing a book right now. I've never written a book before, are you kidding? It's just a matter of, you know, like doing anything difficult. Of course, it can be done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know that now. You know that about yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:455", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we got reacquainted, beginning then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very, very nice. Very, very nice. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Peace Corps either and how he how it's affected your life or what you might say to a young person today about Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think you don't know your capability, your real capability, until you’re faced with very difficult circumstances, challenges, and it's a great, it's a great thing to learn that you're far far more than you thought you than you have ever imagined. So I'm writing a book right now. I've never written a book before, are you kidding? It's just a matter of, you know, like doing anything difficult. Of course, it can be done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know that now. You know that about yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How beautiful. Have you ever gone back to Bolivia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00240:457", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think you don't know your capability, your real capability, until you’re faced with very difficult circumstances, challenges, and it's a great, it's a great thing to learn that you're far far more than you thought you than you have ever imagined. So I'm writing a book right now. I've never written a book before, are you kidding? It's just a matter of, you know, like doing anything difficult. Of course, it can be done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know that now. You know that about yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How beautiful. Have you ever gone back to Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you might someday."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00267:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.25436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I grew as an individual with understanding of other people. There's circumstances try not to be critical of their circumstances. We all we all build our lives the way it happens to occur. We all make choices and our choices guide where we go. I don't always agree with choices other people make, but that's their lives. And they have that right to do that. And I've made many choices that I feel are good. I might mention that I also have developed a very good love for needlepoint and I have gotten. I recently and caveating and I'm very active in a couple of the girls of this nature and as well as my activities on campus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So overall it was kind of a life changing experience for you, wasn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. It was. And I got two wonderful children out of it. And that's a blessing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. OK, so if you if you were back at 30, again, thinking about what to do, would you do it again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I would. I would. There's a need for this in the world. Sometimes I wish I were younger and had more energy again and to do it, but I do what I can as I'm able sure it. Was there any experience that was not pleasant that you remember particularly? Not really that really. I think we tend to forget those and zero in on the good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you experience Carnival while you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00267:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.0604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. It was. And I got two wonderful children out of it. And that's a blessing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. OK, so if you if you were back at 30, again, thinking about what to do, would you do it again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I would. I would. There's a need for this in the world. Sometimes I wish I were younger and had more energy again and to do it, but I do what I can as I'm able sure it. Was there any experience that was not pleasant that you remember particularly? Not really that really. I think we tend to forget those and zero in on the good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you experience Carnival while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, not to a great extent. I did not travel a whole lot. I was good friends with June and Clyde Wolf who were in charge of the Cochabamba group, and I spent many of my vacations visiting them because it was like visiting family.\n\nI had known them back at Manchester College when I was a student, and so I only experienced Carnival at the Santa Cruz level, which of course is nothing compared to the other big cities in that. And it wasn't that important to us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, there were there were a lot of things that went on. Did you get to see much of Bolivia while you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00267:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I would. I would. There's a need for this in the world. Sometimes I wish I were younger and had more energy again and to do it, but I do what I can as I'm able sure it. Was there any experience that was not pleasant that you remember particularly? Not really that really. I think we tend to forget those and zero in on the good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you experience Carnival while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, not to a great extent. I did not travel a whole lot. I was good friends with June and Clyde Wolf who were in charge of the Cochabamba group, and I spent many of my vacations visiting them because it was like visiting family.\n\nI had known them back at Manchester College when I was a student, and so I only experienced Carnival at the Santa Cruz level, which of course is nothing compared to the other big cities in that. And it wasn't that important to us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, there were there were a lot of things that went on. Did you get to see much of Bolivia while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't see a whole lot of it I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You almost became Bolivian, didn’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00267:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.84, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, not to a great extent. I did not travel a whole lot. I was good friends with June and Clyde Wolf who were in charge of the Cochabamba group, and I spent many of my vacations visiting them because it was like visiting family.\n\nI had known them back at Manchester College when I was a student, and so I only experienced Carnival at the Santa Cruz level, which of course is nothing compared to the other big cities in that. And it wasn't that important to us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, there were there were a lot of things that went on. Did you get to see much of Bolivia while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't see a whole lot of it I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You almost became Bolivian, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. In fact, I had a Bolivian driver's license later and I had a Bolivian car name identification, which I'm not sure I should have had. You worry about that as an American citizen. I might say that when my children were born, I immediately had American passports for them and reported their birth so that they had two birth certificates, one from the embassy down there for American birth overseas, I think it was called, as well as their Bolivian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering about that because when I took my kids to Costa Rica, when they were little, I mean, I had to take all kind of documentation to prove that they were my kids and I wanted to take them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00267:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't see a whole lot of it I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You almost became Bolivian, didn’t you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. In fact, I had a Bolivian driver's license later and I had a Bolivian car name identification, which I'm not sure I should have had. You worry about that as an American citizen. I might say that when my children were born, I immediately had American passports for them and reported their birth so that they had two birth certificates, one from the embassy down there for American birth overseas, I think it was called, as well as their Bolivian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering about that because when I took my kids to Costa Rica, when they were little, I mean, I had to take all kind of documentation to prove that they were my kids and I wanted to take them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had had the advice of a Gulf Oil friend who said get individual passports for them because she said if you're ever in an accident and one of them needs to travel to the states for medical reasons, they need their own passport.\n\nDon't put them on your own, your passport. And so I had done that as small children. It was interesting also, we were told at the time that they would be considered dual citizens, but if between the ages of 15 and 25, they said that in five years consecutively in the States, that they would be considered by Bolivia as American citizens. My daughter currently is involved in the Air Force and at one point she said to me, Mom, what am I? And I told her this. And I have never heard anything otherwise. So I'm sure everything went OK because she had to prove her American citizenship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so that's good. OK, do you have any other observations that you would like to me?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:32", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 43, "return_to_go": 92.39636049985808, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a lot of material. There are some small objects, but it’s typically dust material. As we move around, the dust that’s left over from comets, we sweep it up. It’s a dirty area. We don’t live in a really good part of the solar system, it turns out. I hate to tell you, but we now know that. We didn’t know that a couple decades ago. We didn’t know any of that.\\n\\n Out of these near-Earth objects that we’re looking at, there’s about 900 that are planet killers. Those are all big enough to destroy most of the life on this Earth. We now know it’s not a matter of if, it’s only a matter of when one of those will come by and hit us. We’ve been monitoring them and observing them, and there’s quite a few more to find. We statistically believe we’ve got all the really big ones, or most nearly all the big ones, that we’re looking for. But there’s still some that are so big, like 100 to 200 meters in size, that if it hit Washington, DC it would take everything out to the edge of the [Capital] Beltway [Interstate-495]. It’d all be gone. That’s only an object that’s a couple hundred meters in size. That’s no big deal; there are plenty of them out there. There’s tens of thousands of them out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somebody’s going to take this oral history and create a movie script or something based on this. They already have Armageddon [1998 film]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did, it was called Deep Impact [1998]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deep Impact, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As we started early on in our program, within the last 20 years finding this out, then Hollywood kicks in, and does a movie of these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Scares everyone to death."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:60", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 16, "return_to_go": 92.6960298578458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, they’re part of our business. We have a working arrangement with all the other space agencies about what we build, what they know we build, and then how we interface with what they build, how to launch it, and then manage it and operate it. That’s done on a basis that doesn’t provide the knowledge of a technology for what we build to that other country, the knowledge of how that technology is actually implemented. We have a number of instruments that we’ve built that are pretty high-tech that actually have flown on other agency missions. They really don’t have the insight as to what’s in that box that we deliver. The laws are set up that way for us to make sure that that happens that way. That’s what ITAR is. It’s part of international traffic in arms. That bill talks about technology transfer, that’s why it’s called ITAR.\\n\\n That’s an important element of our business, and our Centers know how to work it, they’re trained. We have ITAR specialists in this building. Whenever I have a variety of things that we’re doing, I consult our ITAR specialists, and I work with our international affairs group so that we get it and do it right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s your role in negotiating some of these pieces of hardware or programs, missions, with your international partners?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I get this bear and I bring it into the cabin and my staff has to skin it. That’s the story of how that goes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give an example?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.258, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were. I knew it. I could tell as soon as I read that script. I thought “Man, we’ve got to get involved in this. Really do.”\\n\\n I have a presentation. It’s called “The Martian: Science Fiction and Science Fact.” I’ve given it all over the world, from Beijing, to Canada, in the U.S., to Tokyo, to England, to Germany. Whenever I’m abroad and they know I’m there, they grab me and I end up giving it. I’ve been all over the place with it. It’s unbelievable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a great opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really was. It’s got a little bit of the backstory, but it also compares what we really know about Mars and how they implemented it. That’s what makes it fun. NASA approves the use of the meatball and also provides the ability for consultants and people in NASA to work with film producers. It doesn’t happen a lot, but there’s a lot of civil servants that get involved in that.\\n\\n For instance, at least one or two people in my organization have been consultants on several films. But they haven’t been as popular as The Martian. This was the very first one I did. If there was ever one to be on, this was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was the best Mars film, like you said, I’ve seen. I’ve seen a lot of Mars films. I was going through them as you were talking, and I thought yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The book was good.\n\nThe book was excellent, too."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really was. It’s got a little bit of the backstory, but it also compares what we really know about Mars and how they implemented it. That’s what makes it fun. NASA approves the use of the meatball and also provides the ability for consultants and people in NASA to work with film producers. It doesn’t happen a lot, but there’s a lot of civil servants that get involved in that.\\n\\n For instance, at least one or two people in my organization have been consultants on several films. But they haven’t been as popular as The Martian. This was the very first one I did. If there was ever one to be on, this was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was the best Mars film, like you said, I’ve seen. I’ve seen a lot of Mars films. I was going through them as you were talking, and I thought yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The book was good.\n\nThe book was excellent, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The book was good, yes. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The book was hilarious, especially the comment about duct tape, something NASA couldn’t improve on."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The book was good.\n\nThe book was excellent, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The book was good, yes. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The book was hilarious, especially the comment about duct tape, something NASA couldn’t improve on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing I wanted them to do they didn’t do in the film was flip the rover. He flips the rover getting in Schiaparelli [Mars crater]. That would have been great to do, but they just ran out of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can’t put everything in."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The book was good, yes. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The book was hilarious, especially the comment about duct tape, something NASA couldn’t improve on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing I wanted them to do they didn’t do in the film was flip the rover. He flips the rover getting in Schiaparelli [Mars crater]. That would have been great to do, but they just ran out of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can’t put everything in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which is too bad, can’t do everything. Another thing I wanted them to do that they didn’t do was in the end scene where Mark talks to the class. Early on in the movie he’s out in the field and he’s collecting samples, and he puts one sample in this little container. He talks about oh, the graininess, etc., etc. They have this banter back and forth while they’re deploying instruments.\\n\\n What I wanted them to do is when he leaves Ares 3 to go to Ares 4—he almost walks out of the hab without his helmet. He walks back in to get the helmet, and there’s that sample container. I wanted him to pick it up and take it with him. Then at the end of the movie where he’s at the class, and at the end of the class the kids are all filing out, and somebody comes in and says, “You’ve got to come downstairs in the lab, it’s about your sample.” Then end the movie there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh.\n\nThat would have been good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00880:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which is too bad, can’t do everything. Another thing I wanted them to do that they didn’t do was in the end scene where Mark talks to the class. Early on in the movie he’s out in the field and he’s collecting samples, and he puts one sample in this little container. He talks about oh, the graininess, etc., etc. They have this banter back and forth while they’re deploying instruments.\\n\\n What I wanted them to do is when he leaves Ares 3 to go to Ares 4—he almost walks out of the hab without his helmet. He walks back in to get the helmet, and there’s that sample container. I wanted him to pick it up and take it with him. Then at the end of the movie where he’s at the class, and at the end of the class the kids are all filing out, and somebody comes in and says, “You’ve got to come downstairs in the lab, it’s about your sample.” Then end the movie there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh.\n\nThat would have been good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That would have been great, because it’s all about sample return. Which is Mars 2020, it’s bringing back the samples. That’s the next thing we have to do in this next decade, develop the missions and the capability to bring the samples back. This mission called Mars 2020 is going to core rock, put them in sleeves, and then we’re going to pick them up and bring them back. I wanted sample return to be a theme in the movie. I was driven to do that, but it didn’t go anywhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You tried."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried. It was a great idea, didn’t happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think this might be a good time to end. Thank you for taking so much of your afternoon and sharing this."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.700660459260938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'll get to that. I'll get to that. Now, as I began thinking about this, I began using words we and us and our group and referring to our St. Thomas group of volunteers. And I think this was a very deliberate strategy on the part of the, I think in the end were very skillful about forging group identity, forging group cohesiveness. At the same time, Peace Corps was trying to be sort of evolving in its training methods. And I think Gloria would find for some of the earlier groups that there was a very rigorous selection process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, very academic."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And people were quote deselected, I think was the term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very structured."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This group was part of a transition from that rigid approach to what they termed self-selection. Now they had a cadre of psychologists as well as other staff people working with us and observing us and interviewing us. But I think their approach was to sort of press people who they saw as unfit to deselect themselves rather than imposing a top-down approach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large was your group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.33414871513696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This group was part of a transition from that rigid approach to what they termed self-selection. Now they had a cadre of psychologists as well as other staff people working with us and observing us and interviewing us. But I think their approach was to sort of press people who they saw as unfit to deselect themselves rather than imposing a top-down approach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large was your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I bet there were 60, 70 of us just on St. Thomas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the aspects, I'll get to language training in a minute, was what were then called T groups or sensitivity training. They brought down a bunch of psychologists from some institute, I think it was in Maine, where one of the other groups was training. And we had sessions that, you know, were sort of trying to reveal and get at your inner feelings and so forth. I recall one session that ended very abruptly because the psychologist who was leading them was sort of losing it. And what I recall the discussion afterwards was that the psychologist had become very much infatuated with one of the trainees. It was very heavy, had great difficulty coping with his infatuation versus his professional role as a group leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did he select himself out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.926831905707733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I bet there were 60, 70 of us just on St. Thomas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the aspects, I'll get to language training in a minute, was what were then called T groups or sensitivity training. They brought down a bunch of psychologists from some institute, I think it was in Maine, where one of the other groups was training. And we had sessions that, you know, were sort of trying to reveal and get at your inner feelings and so forth. I recall one session that ended very abruptly because the psychologist who was leading them was sort of losing it. And what I recall the discussion afterwards was that the psychologist had become very much infatuated with one of the trainees. It was very heavy, had great difficulty coping with his infatuation versus his professional role as a group leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did he select himself out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he just, that one. I just recall that one group session abruptly ending because he was just so conflicted about his duality there. Another training exercise I recall. We were assigned to two person teams and one of us was blindfolded. And we spent the morning with the sighted person and the blindfolded person going through various activities. What occurred and what I recall from this exercise is the blindfolded folks very quickly beginning to assert their own independence. They just resented being held and guided. And sort of, please, I'd rather do it myself, kind of attitude. And just the most normal, you know, anything dangerous or anything. You're on a hillside and they were little steps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, fall off a cliff."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.786212229268802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he just, that one. I just recall that one group session abruptly ending because he was just so conflicted about his duality there. Another training exercise I recall. We were assigned to two person teams and one of us was blindfolded. And we spent the morning with the sighted person and the blindfolded person going through various activities. What occurred and what I recall from this exercise is the blindfolded folks very quickly beginning to assert their own independence. They just resented being held and guided. And sort of, please, I'd rather do it myself, kind of attitude. And just the most normal, you know, anything dangerous or anything. You're on a hillside and they were little steps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, fall off a cliff."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lesson, I think, was that people can be helped only when they are willing to accept that help, but only to the extent that they're willing to accept that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was an exercise in the helping relationship. To prepare us for language training, and it was after several weeks that a group of Ethiopians were brought in from Ethiopia to be our language trainers. I don't know if they were university students or just or other teachers. But they brought in six, eight, 10 Ethiopians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was their English good?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.873569143632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lesson, I think, was that people can be helped only when they are willing to accept that help, but only to the extent that they're willing to accept that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was an exercise in the helping relationship. To prepare us for language training, and it was after several weeks that a group of Ethiopians were brought in from Ethiopia to be our language trainers. I don't know if they were university students or just or other teachers. But they brought in six, eight, 10 Ethiopians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was their English good?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't recall. I think their English was well enough. But to prepare us, one of the trainers sat us down. We had a big dining hall. We were all assembled in there and we were, of course, going to use a technique, the oral technique of language training. As a matter of fact, unlike earlier groups, we were never taught the Ethiopian alphabet, which is not a Phoenician letter alphabet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, a script."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.987135248563813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And this woman opined that the reason I wasn't remembering my dreams because I was very much focused on the present and what was going on in the present and dreams are reflective kind of exercise, and so reflection didn't matter. It was, you know, I sort of suppressed my dreams or didn't remember because I was so focused on the present. And I was greatly relieved that, you know, it wasn't anything, you know, dangerous and in any danger of being deselected. Because I literally had a very disastrous experience in graduate school and I was really anxious to do something and succeed. And what was going on at the same time is one of the fellows that I was friendly with, who actually was from the same neighborhood that I was in Chicago, was being pressured to deselect, and he ultimately did not go to Ethiopia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you sleeping well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I slept pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I made it through training and then we were scheduled then to proceed for an additional five weeks of training in-country. And I recall going from St. Thomas to Puerto Rico first, had a couple of days off. Prinair, Puerto Rican International Airline, which has long ceased to exist. But I recall at the airport not only being asked to have my luggage weighed, but being asked how much I weighed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, this is going to happen in the future apparently."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 28.874594720626458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I slept pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I made it through training and then we were scheduled then to proceed for an additional five weeks of training in-country. And I recall going from St. Thomas to Puerto Rico first, had a couple of days off. Prinair, Puerto Rican International Airline, which has long ceased to exist. But I recall at the airport not only being asked to have my luggage weighed, but being asked how much I weighed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, this is going to happen in the future apparently."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But this little four engine prop jet just seemed like it just skimmed over the water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That prepared you for Ethiopian Airlines."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 27.638438578473842, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I made it through training and then we were scheduled then to proceed for an additional five weeks of training in-country. And I recall going from St. Thomas to Puerto Rico first, had a couple of days off. Prinair, Puerto Rican International Airline, which has long ceased to exist. But I recall at the airport not only being asked to have my luggage weighed, but being asked how much I weighed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, this is going to happen in the future apparently."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But this little four engine prop jet just seemed like it just skimmed over the water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That prepared you for Ethiopian Airlines."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I bet I lost some weight anyway. But I stopped in Puerto Rico for a day or two. I have almost no recollection of that. Met my parents. We went together to New York for us to be the charter flight from New York, a KLM charter I believe, to Addis Ababa. So we got to the charter terminal. It was very chaotic. There'd been a bomb threat called in, and the rumor was, I don't know if it was later that I heard it, that somebody who was running late and was afraid they were going to miss the plane called in a bomb threat so there'd be a delay. So we waited around and they finally said that it was safe to board the plane. There was one couple who I didn't know, I think they were from the main training group or one of the other training groups, I didn't know them well. We all gathered for that charter together. They were just still too nervous to board the plane.\n\nSo Peace Corps asked them to go down to Washington, D.C., to be interviewed by staff to decide their fate. I was not permitted to board the plane because they couldn't find my passport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps issued passport."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.921040574038189, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps arranged for a special series of passports. What turned out that I had blocked printed my last name K-R-E-I-M-A-N. And somebody had mistaken a black R for an A. So it had been misfiled. In any event, the couple decided they were going to go ahead. I got called somewhere. I got put up in a hotel in New York somewhere overnight. I got some information somehow to meet this couple at the TWA terminal the next evening. They had found my passport. They had issued me a commercial ticket. And we got on a TWA nonstop flight to Athens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was set. The three of us were together for that. I recall having three seats to myself in a Boeing 707, having steak served in the coach dinner and buying a small bottle of champagne to go with it. And I tried to get some sleep because I knew I was, it was my first trip overseas. I was really excited. We got to Athens and we had until 2:00 a.m. the next morning. They gave us a hotel room and we probably napped for all of an hour and a half, and we immediately embarked on a whirlwind tour of Athens. And in those days before the restoration efforts, we not only got to climb to the top of the Acropolis, but we actually walked through the Parthenon, which a short time thereafter, it was roped off and sealed as they went through an extensive restoration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we did a whole series of, I think we visited the National Museum. We went to the Acropolis, a few other things. And then we had to get up around 11:00 or 12:00 and go out to the airport to meet an Ethiopian Airlines plane that was supposed to depart around 2:00 a.m. and had come from Frankfurt, stopped in Athens. I think it stopped in Alexandria or Cairo and maybe Asmara as well. And then was scheduled to land in Addis Ababa at daybreak. Because they couldn't land sooner because there were no landing lights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's no lights. Right, I remember that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.467822860042432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was set. The three of us were together for that. I recall having three seats to myself in a Boeing 707, having steak served in the coach dinner and buying a small bottle of champagne to go with it. And I tried to get some sleep because I knew I was, it was my first trip overseas. I was really excited. We got to Athens and we had until 2:00 a.m. the next morning. They gave us a hotel room and we probably napped for all of an hour and a half, and we immediately embarked on a whirlwind tour of Athens. And in those days before the restoration efforts, we not only got to climb to the top of the Acropolis, but we actually walked through the Parthenon, which a short time thereafter, it was roped off and sealed as they went through an extensive restoration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we did a whole series of, I think we visited the National Museum. We went to the Acropolis, a few other things. And then we had to get up around 11:00 or 12:00 and go out to the airport to meet an Ethiopian Airlines plane that was supposed to depart around 2:00 a.m. and had come from Frankfurt, stopped in Athens. I think it stopped in Alexandria or Cairo and maybe Asmara as well. And then was scheduled to land in Addis Ababa at daybreak. Because they couldn't land sooner because there were no landing lights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's no lights. Right, I remember that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the national airport. So we got, I got to Addis Ababa. I had missed the charter flight, but I was soon joined up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Reunited with your group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.964247622269369, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we did a whole series of, I think we visited the National Museum. We went to the Acropolis, a few other things. And then we had to get up around 11:00 or 12:00 and go out to the airport to meet an Ethiopian Airlines plane that was supposed to depart around 2:00 a.m. and had come from Frankfurt, stopped in Athens. I think it stopped in Alexandria or Cairo and maybe Asmara as well. And then was scheduled to land in Addis Ababa at daybreak. Because they couldn't land sooner because there were no landing lights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's no lights. Right, I remember that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the national airport. So we got, I got to Addis Ababa. I had missed the charter flight, but I was soon joined up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Reunited with your group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the group. We were put up at a hotel across the street from what was then Peace Corps headquarters, the area known as Arat Kilo. I think that means it was like four kilometers from some landmark, maybe city hall or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The palace or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.51583069141041, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the national airport. So we got, I got to Addis Ababa. I had missed the charter flight, but I was soon joined up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Reunited with your group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the group. We were put up at a hotel across the street from what was then Peace Corps headquarters, the area known as Arat Kilo. I think that means it was like four kilometers from some landmark, maybe city hall or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The palace or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever. A place called the International Hotel. Served pretty good cappuccino."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the bar."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.2398118793449, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the group. We were put up at a hotel across the street from what was then Peace Corps headquarters, the area known as Arat Kilo. I think that means it was like four kilometers from some landmark, maybe city hall or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The palace or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever. A place called the International Hotel. Served pretty good cappuccino."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the bar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. What happened next?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me just ask one question. I think it's so unusual that your Ethiopia X group was split into three subsections, trained separately, and then you all met in Addis Ababa. Is that it? And yet you were supposed to bond as a group and have some feeling."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.938039357215924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. What happened next?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me just ask one question. I think it's so unusual that your Ethiopia X group was split into three subsections, trained separately, and then you all met in Addis Ababa. Is that it? And yet you were supposed to bond as a group and have some feeling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, I think there was. The St. Thomas people bonded with St. Thomas people more than they did with the St. Croix or the Maine people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there was subgroup identities forged among the people who trained together for that initial seven-week period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I find that unusual. Now how did that work out when you got your assignments?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.644772780817455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was just. Well, you know, the people, then you began, the issue was the people in your own town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that became a whole different bonding process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit more about the training. They apparently found some students who were willing to come to summer school and they had us do practice teaching. So we started some teacher exercises and I think we were observed and given additional guidance and pedagogical approaches to teaching English as a second language. I think one of the things I recall being struck by was the physical demands of being up in front of a classroom for several periods a day. I remember the first day just feeling physically wiped out. It was just incredible. You know, after a while, you sort of got into shape and you were able to handle, I think by the end, by Asella, I was handling five, even six periods a day of teaching."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As part of your training, was any physical conditioning like running around the track or doing jumping jacks, part of it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.956509605947478, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit more about the training. They apparently found some students who were willing to come to summer school and they had us do practice teaching. So we started some teacher exercises and I think we were observed and given additional guidance and pedagogical approaches to teaching English as a second language. I think one of the things I recall being struck by was the physical demands of being up in front of a classroom for several periods a day. I remember the first day just feeling physically wiped out. It was just incredible. You know, after a while, you sort of got into shape and you were able to handle, I think by the end, by Asella, I was handling five, even six periods a day of teaching."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As part of your training, was any physical conditioning like running around the track or doing jumping jacks, part of it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had sports down in, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Soccer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was some volleyball and some other stuff, but I think we just did a lot of walking and a lot of, uh, we did not have any organized physical training, unlike earlier sessions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the altitude of Addis Ababa?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 41.29286085680595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was shocked to see somebody speaking even a crude Amharic that I was exhibiting. But some of it has still stuck with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we passed the training. I guess at some point we were formally sworn-in as volunteers. Because actually, until you were completed training, you were not a volunteer. And when you get your calculation of how many months of service, you know, it ended up being 21 months of Peace Corps service, which had an impact on me later that I'll talk about. So I guess, it was like September officially that we were sworn-in, through June or early July two years later. So it was 21 months. I was assigned to Asella. I took a bus down there, sort of a pre-trip and met. All the volunteers were not back. There were three volunteers who were extending for the third year in Asella."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they had had a free trip home over the summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes. Forgot that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 44.76984539645105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we passed the training. I guess at some point we were formally sworn-in as volunteers. Because actually, until you were completed training, you were not a volunteer. And when you get your calculation of how many months of service, you know, it ended up being 21 months of Peace Corps service, which had an impact on me later that I'll talk about. So I guess, it was like September officially that we were sworn-in, through June or early July two years later. So it was 21 months. I was assigned to Asella. I took a bus down there, sort of a pre-trip and met. All the volunteers were not back. There were three volunteers who were extending for the third year in Asella."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they had had a free trip home over the summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes. Forgot that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what they did for people who extended for the third year. So there was just one or two people, volunteers, there. My understanding of Asella, it had one high school for the entire province."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Typical of that time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 35.3495821624843, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And previous, some years prior, no one from that school had ever passed the 12th grade leaving exam. This was a very British model. Elementary, secondary education where you had leaving exams at each stage at eighth grade, twelfth grade. And I was told by these other volunteers, and I'm not sure if it's totally true, that a whole cadre of Peace Corps volunteers were assigned to the secondary school in an attempt to upgrade and see what they could accomplish. The end of the previous year, the year just before I came, they claimed that this secondary school. It was named Ras Darge [inaudible Amharic], Ras Darge Secondary School. And we'll talk about who Ras Darge was. Had the highest pass rate of any high school outside of Addis Ababa and Asmara, the two major cities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had science teachers and math teachers and English teachers who were all Americans. They had like seven Peace Corps volunteers at this one high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a way of upgrading. And apparently it paid off, and they had also assigned an extremely knowledgeable, intelligent school director. His name was Gabahut Bely. He was a graduate not only of Haile Selassie University, but he was a graduate of Orde Wingate High School. Now, if you'll indulge my historical, I'm a historian by training. Orde Wingate was the British general that led a group of irregular forces from British East Africa, along with Ethiopian rebels, to dislodge the Italians in 1941. And Wingate was sort of a legend in Ethiopia, and in the years right after the Second World War, they established a sort of an elite high school and named it for Orde Wingate. And this is where all the best students went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Addis Ababa?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.72175795831589, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had science teachers and math teachers and English teachers who were all Americans. They had like seven Peace Corps volunteers at this one high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a way of upgrading. And apparently it paid off, and they had also assigned an extremely knowledgeable, intelligent school director. His name was Gabahut Bely. He was a graduate not only of Haile Selassie University, but he was a graduate of Orde Wingate High School. Now, if you'll indulge my historical, I'm a historian by training. Orde Wingate was the British general that led a group of irregular forces from British East Africa, along with Ethiopian rebels, to dislodge the Italians in 1941. And Wingate was sort of a legend in Ethiopia, and in the years right after the Second World War, they established a sort of an elite high school and named it for Orde Wingate. And this is where all the best students went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Addis Ababa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Addis Ababa. And Gabahut Bely was one of the elite students who graduated from Orde Wingate School. And it was kind of interesting. [tape break] Yes, the assignment of Gabahut Bely to a provincial school like Ras Garde was another aspect of the effort to try to upgrade the instruction. The faculty was, there were some Ethiopians. Otto George Tesema was a math teacher. Otto Mehari Mesfin was, we believed, from the Falasha tribe. He was an industrial arts teacher. He was a graduate of the agricultural school somewhere out west. I can't remember where the agricultural school or the name of the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the Russian based one?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.742911059649245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Addis Ababa. And Gabahut Bely was one of the elite students who graduated from Orde Wingate School. And it was kind of interesting. [tape break] Yes, the assignment of Gabahut Bely to a provincial school like Ras Garde was another aspect of the effort to try to upgrade the instruction. The faculty was, there were some Ethiopians. Otto George Tesema was a math teacher. Otto Mehari Mesfin was, we believed, from the Falasha tribe. He was an industrial arts teacher. He was a graduate of the agricultural school somewhere out west. I can't remember where the agricultural school or the name of the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's the Russian based one?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Indian contract teachers from the country of India. They were paid rather well. They lived rather well. I found many of them to be very congenial. But also many of us Americans found it a little concerning about their attitudes towards the Ethiopians. I think there's, uh, the psychologist would say that having been the victims of British colonialization and the British haughty condescension to India. And yet the Indians with the pride in their own history and culture, having come to Ethiopia, they sort of were a bit haughty towards the Ethiopians. And some of them at least didn't treat them very well. We got very friendly with one of the French teachers, Eric d'Ecole, and the other two were pretty standoffish. They had a car and they would go into Addis Ababa every week, and they just didn't deal with us very well.\n\nWe also had university students. At the time, Ethiopian university students between the third and fourth year had to spend a year of service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember that, national service."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 36.38101228849916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Indian contract teachers from the country of India. They were paid rather well. They lived rather well. I found many of them to be very congenial. But also many of us Americans found it a little concerning about their attitudes towards the Ethiopians. I think there's, uh, the psychologist would say that having been the victims of British colonialization and the British haughty condescension to India. And yet the Indians with the pride in their own history and culture, having come to Ethiopia, they sort of were a bit haughty towards the Ethiopians. And some of them at least didn't treat them very well. We got very friendly with one of the French teachers, Eric d'Ecole, and the other two were pretty standoffish. They had a car and they would go into Addis Ababa every week, and they just didn't deal with us very well.\n\nWe also had university students. At the time, Ethiopian university students between the third and fourth year had to spend a year of service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember that, national service."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so there were five or six students at our high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In teacher training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.359413290122298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were just assigned as teachers. They just took classroom assignment. And I remember one of them, Mulegeta, helped me negotiate my lease for my house. As for the Peace Corps contingent in this provincial place there, in addition to myself, there was Bob Bass, a math teacher in his third year. His wife, Betty Bass, who was a science teacher. Arthur Hall, who was a math teacher, also in his third year. Jack Hamilton, who was a science teacher in the second year. Elizabeth Rogers, I think she taught English in her second year. And then the new teachers, in addition to myself, were Loretta Huber, now Loretta Huber Davis, who as we speak is in Ethiopia, in Shashamane. Tom Scully and his wife, Andrea Scully. And I can't quite recall what subjects they taught.\n\nA moment about one of the Ethiopian teachers, the university students. His name was Johannes Sabatu. As I understand it, that would mean Johannes the Seventh. There is an emperor in Ethiopian history, if you read The Blue Nile by Alan Moorehead, Johannes the Fourth. I have, I don't know recall who may have told me that he was a descendant of this Ethiopian emperor. He was also, as many young Ethiopians were, very much against the monarchy, very much communist, socialist, radical. He and some of the other teachers later on were said to be the precipitators of some student unrest that I'll get into in a minute.\n\nA minute about, a moment about my house, the house I moved into after living with one of the other volunteers for a while. The houses were built on a foundation, I think usually of cement or sort of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of stones?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stone or something, a slab. And then the walls were built of rough wood lattice tied together with a mud adobe kind of finish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cheekabay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cheekachamin, yeah. So cheekabay, the mud walls. We had glass windows. We had a metal corrugated roof."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it square or round?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.73268143346922, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stone or something, a slab. And then the walls were built of rough wood lattice tied together with a mud adobe kind of finish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cheekabay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cheekachamin, yeah. So cheekabay, the mud walls. We had glass windows. We had a metal corrugated roof."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it square or round?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was square. It was a foreign style. It was in a modern style, not the round, but it was, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the metal corrugated roof?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.499108383816777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we'd go there occasionally and stay there for a night and the decent food, cold beer, hot springs pool was just a way to get away and relax. So I arrived in town and stayed with one of the other volunteers for a while just to get oriented. But for whatever reason, the custom was not to share houses, except for the married couples of course. Everybody had their own place. I guess there's a, it sort of followed the norm, what had gone on in the town previously. I had help negotiating a lease. And I was given advice that my outhouse, and this is one of the selling points of this house, had a very good outhouse. It had a very good draining hole and very."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well built."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well built."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Private."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was very functional. Just before, I'll mention that since this was the only high school in the province, students who were from other towns had to find a way to live in the town in order to continue their education. So the custom that I was told was to bring in some students to live with you, to work for you, paid them a small salary. They did chores for you. And usually one of the outbuildings was sufficient for their housing. So I had two students with me. One of them changed after a while. But the first year was Solomon Ashektu and Abate Moconan. And we came home from school one day, this is one of the tales. I went outside and one of the things that was required to keep the smell down was powdered line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, big sacks."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.887898204240862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well built."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Private."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was very functional. Just before, I'll mention that since this was the only high school in the province, students who were from other towns had to find a way to live in the town in order to continue their education. So the custom that I was told was to bring in some students to live with you, to work for you, paid them a small salary. They did chores for you. And usually one of the outbuildings was sufficient for their housing. So I had two students with me. One of them changed after a while. But the first year was Solomon Ashektu and Abate Moconan. And we came home from school one day, this is one of the tales. I went outside and one of the things that was required to keep the smell down was powdered line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, big sacks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Big sacks of lime. So I bought a sack of powdered lime for my outhouse, and I came in and it was gone. And we started walking with Solomon and Abate, we started walking and there was a trail of powder going across my compound to the fence, every house had a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A hole in your fence."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.145553338568966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Big sacks of lime. So I bought a sack of powdered lime for my outhouse, and I came in and it was gone. And we started walking with Solomon and Abate, we started walking and there was a trail of powder going across my compound to the fence, every house had a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A hole in your fence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's a hole in the fence. And we looked through, got through, it was a fairly large hole. And there at our next door neighbor's was one of their buildings. And there are several buildings in their compound, freshly painted. Well, that was powdered lime, when mixed with water is used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whitewash."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a whitewash. Yeah. And here was this freshly painted, you know, ample evidence that they had come in and stolen my lime and used it to paint the buildings. I was torn. I was first of all, I was angry that it had been stolen, and I tried to use whatever abhorrent words that I knew to, leba, which is a thief. Mini ayineti sewi, you know, what kind of person are you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were your students helping you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.050614820632184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's a hole in the fence. And we looked through, got through, it was a fairly large hole. And there at our next door neighbor's was one of their buildings. And there are several buildings in their compound, freshly painted. Well, that was powdered lime, when mixed with water is used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whitewash."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a whitewash. Yeah. And here was this freshly painted, you know, ample evidence that they had come in and stolen my lime and used it to paint the buildings. I was torn. I was first of all, I was angry that it had been stolen, and I tried to use whatever abhorrent words that I knew to, leba, which is a thief. Mini ayineti sewi, you know, what kind of person are you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were your students helping you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The students were helping, yeah. In any event, but we got no satisfaction from this, and we just sort of left in disgust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn't offer you a chicken?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.945127578480204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a whitewash. Yeah. And here was this freshly painted, you know, ample evidence that they had come in and stolen my lime and used it to paint the buildings. I was torn. I was first of all, I was angry that it had been stolen, and I tried to use whatever abhorrent words that I knew to, leba, which is a thief. Mini ayineti sewi, you know, what kind of person are you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were your students helping you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The students were helping, yeah. In any event, but we got no satisfaction from this, and we just sort of left in disgust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn't offer you a chicken?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they sort of were denying everything. And I guess they just swapped out, the rich foreigner moved in, it's OK to take whatever's available. So after I threw whatever insults I could recall from my language training, we got the fence fixed. We got a bag of lime, another bag of lime. And then I turned to Abate who was from a nearby town, Iteya, and I said, Abate, do you know anybody who has a dog that they'd like to sell? So Abate went home the next weekend at my expense and brought back initially a puppy and he became my guard dog. So we don't have any more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That was rare, wasn't it, to have a dog?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.050141753866892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The students were helping, yeah. In any event, but we got no satisfaction from this, and we just sort of left in disgust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn't offer you a chicken?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they sort of were denying everything. And I guess they just swapped out, the rich foreigner moved in, it's OK to take whatever's available. So after I threw whatever insults I could recall from my language training, we got the fence fixed. We got a bag of lime, another bag of lime. And then I turned to Abate who was from a nearby town, Iteya, and I said, Abate, do you know anybody who has a dog that they'd like to sell? So Abate went home the next weekend at my expense and brought back initially a puppy and he became my guard dog. So we don't have any more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That was rare, wasn't it, to have a dog?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, a lot of people had dogs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had dogs in their compound?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.389046393185435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they sort of were denying everything. And I guess they just swapped out, the rich foreigner moved in, it's OK to take whatever's available. So after I threw whatever insults I could recall from my language training, we got the fence fixed. We got a bag of lime, another bag of lime. And then I turned to Abate who was from a nearby town, Iteya, and I said, Abate, do you know anybody who has a dog that they'd like to sell? So Abate went home the next weekend at my expense and brought back initially a puppy and he became my guard dog. So we don't have any more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That was rare, wasn't it, to have a dog?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, a lot of people had dogs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had dogs in their compound?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So we fixed the hole and got a bag of lime and got a guard dog. And that's how we solved that problem. Raising the dog and trying to house train or, he was too much, had a run of the place. I was, I'd never had a pet, I'd always lived growing up in apartments. We never had animals like dogs. We had a parakeet. But the dog had an accident in the house, and I was told, oh, you're supposed to rub his nose in it and tap him on the nose to discipline the dog. Well, the dog decided to open his mouth and kind of scream a little bit and on his very baby sharp teeth I split open, I can still see a little bit of a scar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's a scar, oh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.89718298104998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So this brings up the point that our hospital, we had sort of a crude hospital in Asella, it was a provincial capital, and it was staffed by Bulgarian doctors. Two Bulgarian doctors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very famous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, Haile Selassie was very pro-Western, but he was not averse to taking aid from wherever he could get it. So communist Bulgaria at that time sent some doctors and they staffed our hospital. The other thing that was going on in our hospital was the training of what were called dressers. These were sort of, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nurses' aides."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nurses' aides, you know, not nowhere near paramedics of any sort, but elementary kind of health care providers that were being trained to staff clinics when there were no other health services were available. And I recall the Bulgarian doctor looking at my thumb and in his Bulgarian accented English, oh yes, I see the saliva in there. And he's cleaning out my thumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they mention the R word, rabies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 28.7746477567222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, Haile Selassie was very pro-Western, but he was not averse to taking aid from wherever he could get it. So communist Bulgaria at that time sent some doctors and they staffed our hospital. The other thing that was going on in our hospital was the training of what were called dressers. These were sort of, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nurses' aides."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nurses' aides, you know, not nowhere near paramedics of any sort, but elementary kind of health care providers that were being trained to staff clinics when there were no other health services were available. And I recall the Bulgarian doctor looking at my thumb and in his Bulgarian accented English, oh yes, I see the saliva in there. And he's cleaning out my thumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they mention the R word, rabies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the dog was pretty, uh. Sorry, I didn't. I think I maybe have my health card in there, but you may have had a rabies shot as a precaution. Yeah. I think we had tetanus. But one of the things I did at the dresser school was I helped teach English. So in addition to my workload at the secondary school, about twice a week I had English language training for the dresser students who were, whose main medical training was under the direction of American nurses."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. And their manuals were in English also."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.194053063024665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nurses' aides, you know, not nowhere near paramedics of any sort, but elementary kind of health care providers that were being trained to staff clinics when there were no other health services were available. And I recall the Bulgarian doctor looking at my thumb and in his Bulgarian accented English, oh yes, I see the saliva in there. And he's cleaning out my thumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they mention the R word, rabies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the dog was pretty, uh. Sorry, I didn't. I think I maybe have my health card in there, but you may have had a rabies shot as a precaution. Yeah. I think we had tetanus. But one of the things I did at the dresser school was I helped teach English. So in addition to my workload at the secondary school, about twice a week I had English language training for the dresser students who were, whose main medical training was under the direction of American nurses."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. And their manuals were in English also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. The nurses. So one of my good friends was Susie West, now Susie West McHugh, was one of the nurses. Marge Power, who is now married to another Peace Corps volunteer. Both of them married other Peace Corps volunteers. But we had two new nurses come in, and I can't remember what time this was, but in any event, I'll relate the story. And I won't use their real names because of what I'm going to tell you about. We'll call one of them Lisa. And they're in training. And Susie, I think Marge may have left already. I think Susie was our main trainer. And they took off one afternoon and Lisa went for a hike to explore. And sometime around after dinner, I got word she hadn't come back. It was getting dark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she was alone?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.83453244428299, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Late at night. There were hyenas. There were probably bandits. And was able to convince her to stay with him and his family in whatever kind of house it was until morning. At daybreak, they started down and were found by the search party. Now we had a lot of cultural sensitivity training, but obviously this particular person hadn't taken to all that cultural sensitivity because the idea of a single, young, and she was fairly attractive as well, woman wandering up this mountain. We were at the foot of a place called Mount Chilalo, which goes up over 12,000 feet. This single young woman wandering the mountainside alone was just so outside the norm of Ethiopian culture that she was immediately reassigned. She had no, nobody would listen to her or would be willing to be treated by her, to be instructed by her, given this reputation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Experience, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And this experience. Apparently this person, when I looked up the roster on the website of the current group of returned Ethiopia and Eritrea, returned Peace Corps volunteers. She married another Peace Corps volunteer because her name linked up with one of the other names of another volunteer in the same town and had a successful period as a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Well, good for her. Maybe she learned her lesson."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But she certainly ruined her career in Asella very quickly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunate. Oh, we're fine."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.474731412695046, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But she certainly ruined her career in Asella very quickly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunate. Oh, we're fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The spring of '69, I recall a number of things. We had a Passover celebration, in my house as a matter of fact. There were several Jewish volunteers. And we had just an international seder. We had the French, we had the Indians. We had Ethiopians. And Andrews came down from Addis Ababa, and I think he brought matzo provided by the Israeli Embassy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. Exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had a full blown Passover Seder. I think about 20 people. I think three or four of them were Jewish. So. And we stressed, and actually I recall and I've since adapted that Passover Seder to some of the things I've written myself. But interesting that the Ethiopian word for Easter, which is the concomitant fasika, which is the concomitant holiday to Passover, really has the same letter origin, that Passover in Hebrew is very similar to fasika or Easter in Amharic, which is an indication of the Semitic relationship between Hebrew and Amharic and is the older origin language.\n\nSo another event that year was, I think that's when there was the bombing of Cambodia in Vietnam. And we were constantly being asked by Ethiopians, by especially the Ethiopian students, you know, what about Vietnam? What about your government's policy? And isn't this terrible?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been difficult."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.854576336779616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Now, the strike ended in a very interesting way. The students' demands were that the students who had been arrested had to be released. But apparently one of, these landowners are pretty conservative people. But a landowner who had enough money put up bail for the students because he wanted the school to get back in order."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one of the local landowners put up bail and got the students released and the strike was ended."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Subsequent to that, the governor ordered guards to be placed in the school compound, and that got to be very problematical. And so one of the, I think it was Bob Bass. But we asked for a meeting with the governor, and the arrogance, this impudence of these Peace Corps volunteers to ask for a meeting with the [Amharic phrase], who was apparently related to the prime minister of Ethiopia, Aklilu Habte-Wold, at that time. So we met with the governor and we explained that the guards were very distracting. The students couldn't learn well, and eventually after a day or so, the students were, the guards were withdrawn.\n\nLater on, some years after Peace Corps, I recall reading an article in the New York Times about the revolutionaries who had deposed the emperor had had a show trial for Aklilu Habte-Wold and other imperial government officials, including [inaudible name]. And he was on the list of people who had been executed by what was called the Derg, the revolutionary council that had taken over the government. So it's kind of an odd feeling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This would be early '70s?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.72730704086624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one of the local landowners put up bail and got the students released and the strike was ended."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Subsequent to that, the governor ordered guards to be placed in the school compound, and that got to be very problematical. And so one of the, I think it was Bob Bass. But we asked for a meeting with the governor, and the arrogance, this impudence of these Peace Corps volunteers to ask for a meeting with the [Amharic phrase], who was apparently related to the prime minister of Ethiopia, Aklilu Habte-Wold, at that time. So we met with the governor and we explained that the guards were very distracting. The students couldn't learn well, and eventually after a day or so, the students were, the guards were withdrawn.\n\nLater on, some years after Peace Corps, I recall reading an article in the New York Times about the revolutionaries who had deposed the emperor had had a show trial for Aklilu Habte-Wold and other imperial government officials, including [inaudible name]. And he was on the list of people who had been executed by what was called the Derg, the revolutionary council that had taken over the government. So it's kind of an odd feeling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This would be early '70s?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, '74, about '73 to '74. It was an odd feeling seeing the name of someone who I knew and met was among people who had been executed by Ethiopian revolutionaries. So my children have heard this story of my arrest, and they find it quite entertaining."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do not do what daddy did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.80811893429582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Subsequent to that, the governor ordered guards to be placed in the school compound, and that got to be very problematical. And so one of the, I think it was Bob Bass. But we asked for a meeting with the governor, and the arrogance, this impudence of these Peace Corps volunteers to ask for a meeting with the [Amharic phrase], who was apparently related to the prime minister of Ethiopia, Aklilu Habte-Wold, at that time. So we met with the governor and we explained that the guards were very distracting. The students couldn't learn well, and eventually after a day or so, the students were, the guards were withdrawn.\n\nLater on, some years after Peace Corps, I recall reading an article in the New York Times about the revolutionaries who had deposed the emperor had had a show trial for Aklilu Habte-Wold and other imperial government officials, including [inaudible name]. And he was on the list of people who had been executed by what was called the Derg, the revolutionary council that had taken over the government. So it's kind of an odd feeling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This would be early '70s?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, '74, about '73 to '74. It was an odd feeling seeing the name of someone who I knew and met was among people who had been executed by Ethiopian revolutionaries. So my children have heard this story of my arrest, and they find it quite entertaining."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do not do what daddy did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. One of the upshots of this was that the Ethiopian university students at our school were noted as the instigators of the student unrest, which they probably were, and they were expelled from the province. So we came back from the strike with seven fewer, six or seven fewer teachers. And we had to rework the entire school schedule."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you took on a heavier load then."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.786798815884243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, '74, about '73 to '74. It was an odd feeling seeing the name of someone who I knew and met was among people who had been executed by Ethiopian revolutionaries. So my children have heard this story of my arrest, and they find it quite entertaining."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do not do what daddy did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. One of the upshots of this was that the Ethiopian university students at our school were noted as the instigators of the student unrest, which they probably were, and they were expelled from the province. So we came back from the strike with seven fewer, six or seven fewer teachers. And we had to rework the entire school schedule."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you took on a heavier load then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, instead of teaching English, I took over 10th grade history. I taught seven sections of 10th grade history for the whole 10th grade, and there were seven. It was over 200, I think. And the interesting thing. I remember going into one of the first classes and they were following the official ministry curriculum in a way. Talking about ancient Greece, that's where I think is where I picked up. And immediately when I heard the students describing what they had learned, I was asking, you know, where they were in the curriculum. And you heard all this Marxist about, you know, the oppressed people and the slavery and the whole thing. Which in effect is true, but it was a very Marxist slant on Athens and ancient Greece."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't the old British curriculum."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.763109795426935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. One of the upshots of this was that the Ethiopian university students at our school were noted as the instigators of the student unrest, which they probably were, and they were expelled from the province. So we came back from the strike with seven fewer, six or seven fewer teachers. And we had to rework the entire school schedule."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you took on a heavier load then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, instead of teaching English, I took over 10th grade history. I taught seven sections of 10th grade history for the whole 10th grade, and there were seven. It was over 200, I think. And the interesting thing. I remember going into one of the first classes and they were following the official ministry curriculum in a way. Talking about ancient Greece, that's where I think is where I picked up. And immediately when I heard the students describing what they had learned, I was asking, you know, where they were in the curriculum. And you heard all this Marxist about, you know, the oppressed people and the slavery and the whole thing. Which in effect is true, but it was a very Marxist slant on Athens and ancient Greece."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't the old British curriculum."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I think it was. [tape break] Another story, which I can't verify, that I heard later on, was that as a result of our arrest, the police ministry, the Ministry of Interior, had decided that the four or five of us that had been arrested were to be deported. We were thrown out of the country. And the story was that the orders were supposed to go from the Ministry of Interior to the Ministry of Education, because technically although we were Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's who your employer was, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.736788661585482, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, instead of teaching English, I took over 10th grade history. I taught seven sections of 10th grade history for the whole 10th grade, and there were seven. It was over 200, I think. And the interesting thing. I remember going into one of the first classes and they were following the official ministry curriculum in a way. Talking about ancient Greece, that's where I think is where I picked up. And immediately when I heard the students describing what they had learned, I was asking, you know, where they were in the curriculum. And you heard all this Marxist about, you know, the oppressed people and the slavery and the whole thing. Which in effect is true, but it was a very Marxist slant on Athens and ancient Greece."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't the old British curriculum."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I think it was. [tape break] Another story, which I can't verify, that I heard later on, was that as a result of our arrest, the police ministry, the Ministry of Interior, had decided that the four or five of us that had been arrested were to be deported. We were thrown out of the country. And the story was that the orders were supposed to go from the Ministry of Interior to the Ministry of Education, because technically although we were Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's who your employer was, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our employer was the Ministry of Education. Apparently, the paperwork never found its way through proper channels, and I don't know if it got, some sympathetic person buried on his or her, his desk, I'm sure it was a he. Or for whatever reason, or whether it was ever true that we were ordered to be deported, but there was. It's an interesting thought. It was shortly after the strikes and the disturbance that the regional director for Africa visited Ethiopia. It was a man named C. Payne Lucas. I don't know if you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I met him in Washington."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.929765179539423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I think it was. [tape break] Another story, which I can't verify, that I heard later on, was that as a result of our arrest, the police ministry, the Ministry of Interior, had decided that the four or five of us that had been arrested were to be deported. We were thrown out of the country. And the story was that the orders were supposed to go from the Ministry of Interior to the Ministry of Education, because technically although we were Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's who your employer was, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our employer was the Ministry of Education. Apparently, the paperwork never found its way through proper channels, and I don't know if it got, some sympathetic person buried on his or her, his desk, I'm sure it was a he. Or for whatever reason, or whether it was ever true that we were ordered to be deported, but there was. It's an interesting thought. It was shortly after the strikes and the disturbance that the regional director for Africa visited Ethiopia. It was a man named C. Payne Lucas. I don't know if you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I met him in Washington."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I've met him. He was in my house, and we all gathered together. I had one of the bigger houses among the volunteers. So when Andy Andrews brought C. Payne Lucas down to meet with us, discuss things, we met at my house. And I just have the vaguest recollection of a discussion of what about this traditional academic secondary education and how it met Ethiopia's needs when the economy was so limited, health care was needed, the sanitation was problematic. And here we were, teaching British curriculum subjects, history, and English and math and science and biology and so forth. What were we training these kids to do? So we all wondered."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wondered, didn't we? We all wondered. You were the 10th group. Believe me, Ethiopia I said the same thing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.14418353282158, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our employer was the Ministry of Education. Apparently, the paperwork never found its way through proper channels, and I don't know if it got, some sympathetic person buried on his or her, his desk, I'm sure it was a he. Or for whatever reason, or whether it was ever true that we were ordered to be deported, but there was. It's an interesting thought. It was shortly after the strikes and the disturbance that the regional director for Africa visited Ethiopia. It was a man named C. Payne Lucas. I don't know if you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I met him in Washington."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I've met him. He was in my house, and we all gathered together. I had one of the bigger houses among the volunteers. So when Andy Andrews brought C. Payne Lucas down to meet with us, discuss things, we met at my house. And I just have the vaguest recollection of a discussion of what about this traditional academic secondary education and how it met Ethiopia's needs when the economy was so limited, health care was needed, the sanitation was problematic. And here we were, teaching British curriculum subjects, history, and English and math and science and biology and so forth. What were we training these kids to do? So we all wondered."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wondered, didn't we? We all wondered. You were the 10th group. Believe me, Ethiopia I said the same thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another interesting event. My niece was born that spring, and an official Ethiopian, imperial Ethiopian telegraph stationery, got a telegram from her older brothers that my niece had been born. That was an exciting thing. There was a volunteer in the next town towards Nazreth, little town, bump in the road pretty much, called Iteya. It was on the town road between Nazreth and Asella, and there was a volunteer named John Nelson, and he was an interesting. He enjoyed the solitude. Whereas we had eight, nine volunteers in Asella, he was there by himself teaching at an elementary school. And he sort of became a local celebrity actually, sort of really got into."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "His language skills?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 24.604648369801755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I've met him. He was in my house, and we all gathered together. I had one of the bigger houses among the volunteers. So when Andy Andrews brought C. Payne Lucas down to meet with us, discuss things, we met at my house. And I just have the vaguest recollection of a discussion of what about this traditional academic secondary education and how it met Ethiopia's needs when the economy was so limited, health care was needed, the sanitation was problematic. And here we were, teaching British curriculum subjects, history, and English and math and science and biology and so forth. What were we training these kids to do? So we all wondered."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wondered, didn't we? We all wondered. You were the 10th group. Believe me, Ethiopia I said the same thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another interesting event. My niece was born that spring, and an official Ethiopian, imperial Ethiopian telegraph stationery, got a telegram from her older brothers that my niece had been born. That was an exciting thing. There was a volunteer in the next town towards Nazreth, little town, bump in the road pretty much, called Iteya. It was on the town road between Nazreth and Asella, and there was a volunteer named John Nelson, and he was an interesting. He enjoyed the solitude. Whereas we had eight, nine volunteers in Asella, he was there by himself teaching at an elementary school. And he sort of became a local celebrity actually, sort of really got into."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "His language skills?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His language skills and his relationships with the locals. He was the only foreigner there. We associated with other teachers, including the Ethiopian teachers, but we didn't have a great deal of contact with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The parents of the students."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.67240539481698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "His language skills and his relationships with the locals. He was the only foreigner there. We associated with other teachers, including the Ethiopian teachers, but we didn't have a great deal of contact with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The parents of the students."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The parents and the other folks. But John got invited to a wedding. Maybe this was the second year when I was one of the last volunteers around, but Susan West and I, Susie West McHugh, got invited also. So we took the bus and got off at Iteya and went with John to this wedding. And apparently this was a fairly well-to-do farming family. They had some vehicles, they had a fairly nice house. And they went through the muck, in the old days apparently, the groom in his retinue would go and kidnap the bride. And they went, this was not done, it was not a kidnaping per se, this was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Traditional."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Traditional. They went through the motions of going through this tradition. They came riding in with the bride and they slaughtered a sheep across the threshold, supposed to be good luck. I remember this as being just before summer vacation because we were drinking and eating, and I think it was whatever I drank and ate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The homemade brew?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.14321727684084, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I came down with a combination of dysentery and typhoid fever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, Peace Corps health care was pretty limited. I didn't go to the hospital in, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Addis Ababa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Asella. I took a bus. I was just doggedly sick. So after the year of the school ended, I was supposed to be doing my summer project. Supposed to be working on getting the library in shape. We had a bunch of donated books and then one of the buildings. But I struggled to get myself into Addis Ababa. I stayed at the International. They took a blood test. Next day, they came back and said, yeah, you have typhoid fever. I think they handed me a bottle of tetracycline. I asked my wife, did they have tetracycline in 1968? And she said, yes they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.660106003896903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they handed me a bottle of tetracycline, said take four a day and go back home. And that was my treatment for typhoid fever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the dysentery took care of itself, pretty much. But I was pretty sick and I lost a lot of weight and I didn't do much of my library work. But we did have a chance to go on vacation and there arose of a tradition among Ethiopia volunteers that they would go to someplace nice and have some R&R. And so the tradition was to go down to Kenya, to fly down to Nairobi. And so the fellow who, he had come to Asella and was staying at my house to do his summer project. We ended up going and teaming up to travel through East Africa. And we flew into Nairobi. We had drinks at the voluntary bar at the new Stanley Hotel, and at the Lord Delamere Room of the Norfolk, all the famous colonial places. Tried hitchhiking to Kampala, Uganda, didn't make it, so we ended up getting on the train that went between Nairobi and Kampala. Somewhere there's a picture of me crossing the equator on the Nakuru Eldoret Road. And I remember in Kampala seeing the sign, zebra crossing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I tried to think, this is Kampala. It's a pretty booked up town. What are the zebras doing in Kampala? And I looked down and realized on the black tarmac were the white stripes for a pedestrian crossing. And that's what they labeled this pedestrian crossing, like a zebra crossing. And I realized it was not to warn me of zebras in the middle of Kampala. But I continued travels through on the boat on Lake Victoria to Mwanza at the southern end of Lake Victoria, on a train to Dar es Salaam for two days, visiting Arusha."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you climb Kilimanjaro?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 25.830049388061592, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did not. I did go to Ngorongoro Crater and Olduvai Gorge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, excellent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fascinating tour of Olduvai Gorge and the Leakey discoveries there. Also went to Zanzibar. At that time, Zanzibar, although, you know, united with the mainland, formerly Tanganyika to become Tanzania, was sort of independent and the Sultan had just been overthrown by a native group who were pretty radical. The red Chinese were there, the People's Republic was there. They had a Mao bookstore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I did purchase the book of Mao sayings, the red book, if you recall from the sixties. I recall sitting in the bar with a West German who was pointing out to me the East Germans that were in bar. We had stayed an extra night because our plane, we were overbooked and we couldn't get back to the mainland. So the airline put us up for an extra night at a nice hotel. I'd been staying at the hostel. And going around and watching, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you go fishing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 24.255610431179548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fascinating tour of Olduvai Gorge and the Leakey discoveries there. Also went to Zanzibar. At that time, Zanzibar, although, you know, united with the mainland, formerly Tanganyika to become Tanzania, was sort of independent and the Sultan had just been overthrown by a native group who were pretty radical. The red Chinese were there, the People's Republic was there. They had a Mao bookstore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I did purchase the book of Mao sayings, the red book, if you recall from the sixties. I recall sitting in the bar with a West German who was pointing out to me the East Germans that were in bar. We had stayed an extra night because our plane, we were overbooked and we couldn't get back to the mainland. So the airline put us up for an extra night at a nice hotel. I'd been staying at the hostel. And going around and watching, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you go fishing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But we went to a coconut harvesting exhibition. I climbed the tree, cut down the coconut, opened it up, and we drink the coconut water. So we had quite an adventure in Mombasa and Malindi. Almost got stranded in the middle of Kenya, but somehow made it through and here to tell about it. When I returned, I returned to have a visit from my parents. My parents had combined a trip to the Middle East and they added on Ethiopia, and they were pretty shocked to see me. I was down about 40 pounds from when they had last seen me. I had grown a beard. And my mother talks about being horrified at seeing me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Her son, her baby."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.32456849270171, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I am the youngest of two. But I guess we arranged, we rented a car and drove down to Asella. All of my students were so thrilled to see Mr. Kreiman's parents came to visit all the way from America. And I'm not sure how we protected the car from some bandits, but we did. But my mother, realizing I served, I think I made something like a meatloaf, but we didn't have any refrigeration, but I bought fresh meat just, you know, I told my students to get fresh meat that day. And I had a hand-crank grinder and I ground up the meat and made meatloaf. I was my own cook, unlike some who hired a cook. But I remember the look on my mother's face.\n\nI had hooked up to my outhouse, which was about 10 feet outside the back door. It was a separate building with my latrine. I just strung lamp cord out to the outhouse and had put a light bulb in it and a switch so they could have a lighted outhouse. But my mother dutifully, we spent one night, they spent at my house in Asella. And if I could have captured the look on her face when she returned from the latrine, it would have been. Mother was, let's see. She was 52, 53, but she was very game."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was more culture shock than age."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. She was still pretty able to get around. Another thing I recall, I guess it was the summer of '69 when the astronauts landed on the moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one of our favorite hangouts in Addis Ababa was a China Bar restaurant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember that from my days. The famous China Bar."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.511812953952727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And one of our favorite hangouts in Addis Ababa was a China Bar restaurant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember that from my days. The famous China Bar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it so happened that I think Suzy and I were in the China Bar on the day the astronauts landed on the moon. And there were Americans in the China Bar, and they had a shortwave radio on their dining table, blaring out the, you know, blow by blow account of the landing. Susie and I were all in the corner and we just cringed. We just thought, here you are in a public restaurant. How crude, how culturally insensitive to have this radio blaring. I'm sure you're proud that your country has the first Earthlings to land on the moon, but to do it in a public place. I guess we just sort of didn't want to be seen with it with these. I think they were military people or somebody. But we just were very embarrassed by their crude, what we saw as crude behavior."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I moved to a house the second year that had a compound with three houses. The owner was a retired police lieutenant who had been given a land grant by the emperor as a retirement bonus. The second house was occupied by the music teacher at our secondary school, and I had third house. And it made for quite safety, I mean, nobody was going to mess with a police lieutenant's compound, so I didn't have to worry about anybody stealing the lime from the outhouse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you keep your dog?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.790903282169698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it so happened that I think Suzy and I were in the China Bar on the day the astronauts landed on the moon. And there were Americans in the China Bar, and they had a shortwave radio on their dining table, blaring out the, you know, blow by blow account of the landing. Susie and I were all in the corner and we just cringed. We just thought, here you are in a public restaurant. How crude, how culturally insensitive to have this radio blaring. I'm sure you're proud that your country has the first Earthlings to land on the moon, but to do it in a public place. I guess we just sort of didn't want to be seen with it with these. I think they were military people or somebody. But we just were very embarrassed by their crude, what we saw as crude behavior."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I moved to a house the second year that had a compound with three houses. The owner was a retired police lieutenant who had been given a land grant by the emperor as a retirement bonus. The second house was occupied by the music teacher at our secondary school, and I had third house. And it made for quite safety, I mean, nobody was going to mess with a police lieutenant's compound, so I didn't have to worry about anybody stealing the lime from the outhouse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you keep your dog?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I kept my dog, and that leads to the next. I tried to keep my dog corralled on my part of the compound, but he got loose one day and the owner had brought in some sheep from some, not sheep, they were lambs, sheep from his farm. And my dog Moxie got hold of one of the sheep and had him by the throat. I mean, he was ready to bring it down. And they came out and they got him off the sheep. But he had punctures on the side of his neck from my dog. So to make amends, I had to buy the sheep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was very diplomatic."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.32322586907744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I moved to a house the second year that had a compound with three houses. The owner was a retired police lieutenant who had been given a land grant by the emperor as a retirement bonus. The second house was occupied by the music teacher at our secondary school, and I had third house. And it made for quite safety, I mean, nobody was going to mess with a police lieutenant's compound, so I didn't have to worry about anybody stealing the lime from the outhouse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you keep your dog?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I kept my dog, and that leads to the next. I tried to keep my dog corralled on my part of the compound, but he got loose one day and the owner had brought in some sheep from some, not sheep, they were lambs, sheep from his farm. And my dog Moxie got hold of one of the sheep and had him by the throat. I mean, he was ready to bring it down. And they came out and they got him off the sheep. But he had punctures on the side of his neck from my dog. So to make amends, I had to buy the sheep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was very diplomatic."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had the sheep brought to another volunteer's compound. We had fed them for a few days and then we had them slaughtered and sold the sheep skin to recoup some of the cost. And I invited everybody in for leg of lamb for a couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 28.136917632308265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I kept my dog, and that leads to the next. I tried to keep my dog corralled on my part of the compound, but he got loose one day and the owner had brought in some sheep from some, not sheep, they were lambs, sheep from his farm. And my dog Moxie got hold of one of the sheep and had him by the throat. I mean, he was ready to bring it down. And they came out and they got him off the sheep. But he had punctures on the side of his neck from my dog. So to make amends, I had to buy the sheep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was very diplomatic."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had the sheep brought to another volunteer's compound. We had fed them for a few days and then we had them slaughtered and sold the sheep skin to recoup some of the cost. And I invited everybody in for leg of lamb for a couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was great, but not particularly good leg of lamb, it was pretty tough, but in any event. The second year got pretty interesting. Gabahut Bely left for another assignment. A new school director came in. He was sort of a tinpot dictator who sort of, didn't, he was very much impressed with himself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With his position."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.39125633618304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was great, but not particularly good leg of lamb, it was pretty tough, but in any event. The second year got pretty interesting. Gabahut Bely left for another assignment. A new school director came in. He was sort of a tinpot dictator who sort of, didn't, he was very much impressed with himself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With his position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, as I recall. And he wasn't the congenial, effective leader that Gabahut Bely had been. We also had a bunch of new teachers. Running out of Indians and Peace Corps volunteers, they began contracting with the Philippines to bring in teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, unusual."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Filipinos had not had very much cultural training, if at all. I recall that soon after they arrived, stories of their having left laundry out overnight and having it stolen. Of inappropriate contacts between the Filipinos and Ethiopians. It was just, it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't set well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 35.990284817981156, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, as I recall. And he wasn't the congenial, effective leader that Gabahut Bely had been. We also had a bunch of new teachers. Running out of Indians and Peace Corps volunteers, they began contracting with the Philippines to bring in teachers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, unusual."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Filipinos had not had very much cultural training, if at all. I recall that soon after they arrived, stories of their having left laundry out overnight and having it stolen. Of inappropriate contacts between the Filipinos and Ethiopians. It was just, it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't set well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn't set too well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were the Peace Corps volunteers not replaced, even though you had a good reputation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 35.54476090886795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Filipinos had not had very much cultural training, if at all. I recall that soon after they arrived, stories of their having left laundry out overnight and having it stolen. Of inappropriate contacts between the Filipinos and Ethiopians. It was just, it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't set well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn't set too well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were the Peace Corps volunteers not replaced, even though you had a good reputation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, five volunteers left by finishing their term. Jack Hamilton and Elizabeth Rogers completed their second year. Art Hall, Bob and Betty Bess completed the third year. So the five were not replaced that left. So the starting the second year, it was just myself, Loretta Huber, Loretta Huber Davis now, and Tom and Andrea Scully. There were only four Peace Corps volunteer teachers at the high school at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. So were you taking on an extra role?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 37.27195656540883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn't set too well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were the Peace Corps volunteers not replaced, even though you had a good reputation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, five volunteers left by finishing their term. Jack Hamilton and Elizabeth Rogers completed their second year. Art Hall, Bob and Betty Bess completed the third year. So the five were not replaced that left. So the starting the second year, it was just myself, Loretta Huber, Loretta Huber Davis now, and Tom and Andrea Scully. There were only four Peace Corps volunteer teachers at the high school at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. So were you taking on an extra role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took, yeah, we had, the Filipinos came in and picked up some of the slack. What happened later in, I believe it was in Adwa, two Peace Corps teachers were assaulted by students. And I have the letter that they wrote to their fellow volunteers, which indicated it had been an anti- American, anti-government effort aimed at, you know, they associated Peace Corps with support of the emperor. They were against the emperor, at least these university students who fomented this, apparently, and it was their effort to try and push out one of the emperor's supporters, the American presence. There was a great deal of back and forth. There was a meeting of some sort, which I don't recall attending. In any event, the general rule was that if you left early, you had to pay for your own ticket home. That rule was waived in Ethiopia and because of the unrest, because of the assault on the teachers, anyone who felt that their position was not tenable, had the option to return early and have their way paid by Peace Corps. What they'd do, they would deduct it from your readjustment allowance, the portion of your tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Were you asked to go to a different country like Kenya or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 38.730810574578804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took, yeah, we had, the Filipinos came in and picked up some of the slack. What happened later in, I believe it was in Adwa, two Peace Corps teachers were assaulted by students. And I have the letter that they wrote to their fellow volunteers, which indicated it had been an anti- American, anti-government effort aimed at, you know, they associated Peace Corps with support of the emperor. They were against the emperor, at least these university students who fomented this, apparently, and it was their effort to try and push out one of the emperor's supporters, the American presence. There was a great deal of back and forth. There was a meeting of some sort, which I don't recall attending. In any event, the general rule was that if you left early, you had to pay for your own ticket home. That rule was waived in Ethiopia and because of the unrest, because of the assault on the teachers, anyone who felt that their position was not tenable, had the option to return early and have their way paid by Peace Corps. What they'd do, they would deduct it from your readjustment allowance, the portion of your tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Were you asked to go to a different country like Kenya or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think they were. It was, they were. This was like December, November, December of our second year. So we had one semester left. And I think they thought that relocating for one semester was not worthwhile particularly. So as I recall, Loretta Huber Davis and the Scullys both left after the first semester, and I was the last American teacher at that school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I went through my own justification. The students were willing to attend class. They came and they worked. And I said, if they're willing to work, I'm willing to teach. And if they're willing to come to class. And I think the assault up in Tigray, much more political up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it was near the Eritrea border."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 37.307508297479735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Returned and she is there as we speak, doing training of elementary teachers in Shashamane, has picked up some information about what's going on in Asella. So I stuck it out, for better or for worse. I ended up being responsible for selling off huge amounts of furniture that Peace Corps had bought. We had gone from a town of, I think, eight or nine volunteers to two volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they left their households?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they left their households, so a Peace Corps instructed me just to sell off all the furniture. So we had a big yard sale. Ethiopian garage sale. You know, chairs and tables and couches, beds and cupboards and everything. Hundreds of Ethiopian dollars’ worth of stuff that I turned over to the Peace Corps. Sold a few of my own personal things to build up a stash for traveling plans. I recall making a trip to Addis Ababa just before I left, and we had to get an exit visa. It was a document that had to be signed by a number of different ministries. And I recall going between, there's a music store between the International Hotel at Arat Kilo and a place called the Piazza, which is in the circle near the city hall, if you recall that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the music stores have the song music blaring on a loudspeaker. And what of all songs did they play? It was a song by a group called Eric Burdon and the Animals, and the song was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not the Beatles?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 44.47112985441203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or shortly after. However, the American Friends Service Committee, to whom I am grateful for it, sent representatives to Addis Ababa at the end of the school year to counsel all of the men about the draft. And one of the things they counsel us about was how to obtain a proper medical deferment. They came with a big, thick Army medical manual. They helped us search for conditions that we might have that disqualified us. They advised us not to wait to be called up and going through the traditional Army physical, which they just shuffle people right on through. But they said, every board has a medical advisor. You make an appointment with the medical advisor, you bring your documentation, and you ask them to make a determination, which I did. I actually had to find the spot in the manual that showed the condition that I brought documentation from my personal physician that I had. He filled out a form, stuck it in an envelope, and handed it to me and I was to be medically deferred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And gave it to me to mail myself, and I asked him, does the board follow your recommendations? He says, well, they have all the time so far. So I stuck it in the mailbox downstairs from his office and his office was up in a little office building that on the ground floor housed a liquor store. So I went in and bought a bottle of what has since been my favorite champagne, Korbel Brut, and celebrated. And I received in a few weeks a 1-Y classification, which at that time was sort a, that only in an extreme emergency. When they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. Because I had to deal with the draft, I had a limited amount of time to travel home. Others spent months. If I had had a high draft lottery number, I could have been more comfortable. Some traveled east and concluded around the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which I did, which was fabulous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I recommend it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 37.74213562273089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I recommend it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I raced through a few key spots that I wanted to visit. I first went back to Nairobi and from Nairobi to Tel Aviv, Tel Aviv to Zurich, Zurich to London, and London to Washington, D.C. And I remember coming through customs in Washington, D.C. And how long have you been away from the United States? Two years? And here is this scraggly, bearded 24, 25 year old, and they started rifling through. And I, honestly, I had bought a camera in Kenya, a Pentax Spotmatic, and I declared it. And I think I paid like nine dollars duty on my Pentax camera. And they were searching for drugs. They were sure I had drugs in my suitcase, and I was not foolish enough to carry drugs in my suitcase, of course. But I came back and I took care of my draft issue.\n\nC. Payne Lucas comes into this story again by this time. C. Payne Lucas was head of Returned Volunteer Services group, and he started something called the Transition Center program, and they contracted with a Washington consulting firm, a firm called TransCentury Corporation, to run a week-long readjustment effort for returned Peace Corps volunteers. And you had to apply and you had to write an essay, which I still have. And so I was selected and I came back to Washington, D.C., for the Transition Center program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope you met Dick Irish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I met Dick Irish, he ran the program. Well, Dick Irish was an interesting character. But he revealed to me when I chatted with him about my having worked on the McCarthy campaign in the spring of 1968, that it was he who supplied the mailing list of Peace Corps to the McCarthy campaign for getting the mailing. And it was I, as a volunteer, who had copied the insert and stuffed envelopes and put the labels on that mailing to the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he was very political."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 39.80510570707517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I met Dick Irish, he ran the program. Well, Dick Irish was an interesting character. But he revealed to me when I chatted with him about my having worked on the McCarthy campaign in the spring of 1968, that it was he who supplied the mailing list of Peace Corps to the McCarthy campaign for getting the mailing. And it was I, as a volunteer, who had copied the insert and stuffed envelopes and put the labels on that mailing to the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he was very political."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Dick Irish and a fellow named William \"Buddy\" Blakey, he was an attorney, were running the program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "TransCentury?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "TransCentury Corporation. Buddy is now, uh, he worked. I just looked at his website. I looked him up on the website. He has a law firm now, William A. Blakey and Associates. But he had worked for the United Negro College Fund or did something and had won some award from one of those type organizations. He was an African American attorney, which was still fairly rare in 1970."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it was."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.358306391631757, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, he ran the War on Poverty, the Office of Economic Opportunity, but I don't know if he was directly involved with HUD. Additional, uh, before I got hired by HUD, one of the things that I do and I don't know how I made contact with them. Maybe it was TransCentury and the Transition, uh. The returned volunteer office asked me to help with the recruitment of the next and one of the last classes at that stage for Peace Corps volunteers. And they were doing what was called a pre-invitational staging where they had invited a group of people who were potential."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Applicants?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Applicants, who had applied and were potential for selection to Ethiopia. And they hired me to be an adviser on the Peace Corps experience. And I was flown down to Kansas City and in a meeting room of 25, 30, 35, potential Ethiopia volunteers, I was asked to describe my experience and what it was like. And I think on reflection, I think, you know, it's sort of a roller coaster experience. And I recall just a couple of stories of teaching that I have and I wanted to share with you. When I began teaching history, I got, following the curriculum, I got to the point of the Roman Empire and I had a segment on Antony and Cleopatra and Caesar and the machinations in Rome and how Antony and Cleopatra united forces to try and defeat Caesar.\n\nAnd I described all this and how Antony and Cleopatra had been defeated by Caesar's forces. How Cleopatra was just, could woo any man, exceedingly attractive, maybe just she had power, but in any event, the legend was that she was exceedingly attractive. And there was a room, classroom full of, and this was 10th grade, but they started late and they were probably 16, 17 years old in the 10th grade. And there's some smattering of young women. We did have coed classes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were a few."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think it's probably 10 percent or less were females."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Did you get the Queen of Sheba allegory?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 19.287007101813064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Applicants, who had applied and were potential for selection to Ethiopia. And they hired me to be an adviser on the Peace Corps experience. And I was flown down to Kansas City and in a meeting room of 25, 30, 35, potential Ethiopia volunteers, I was asked to describe my experience and what it was like. And I think on reflection, I think, you know, it's sort of a roller coaster experience. And I recall just a couple of stories of teaching that I have and I wanted to share with you. When I began teaching history, I got, following the curriculum, I got to the point of the Roman Empire and I had a segment on Antony and Cleopatra and Caesar and the machinations in Rome and how Antony and Cleopatra united forces to try and defeat Caesar.\n\nAnd I described all this and how Antony and Cleopatra had been defeated by Caesar's forces. How Cleopatra was just, could woo any man, exceedingly attractive, maybe just she had power, but in any event, the legend was that she was exceedingly attractive. And there was a room, classroom full of, and this was 10th grade, but they started late and they were probably 16, 17 years old in the 10th grade. And there's some smattering of young women. We did have coed classes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were a few."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think it's probably 10 percent or less were females."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Did you get the Queen of Sheba allegory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. And I actually mentioned something about that, but as well. But I went through this lecture and I timed it just right and spoke, you know, as word got that their forces had been defeated, that the legend was that Cleopatra took the poisonous snake from the basket, clutched it to her chest, and died. And that very second, the bell went off for the end of the period, and the students gave me a round of applause. One of my all time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the highlights of your drama."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.737045804707487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. And I actually mentioned something about that, but as well. But I went through this lecture and I timed it just right and spoke, you know, as word got that their forces had been defeated, that the legend was that Cleopatra took the poisonous snake from the basket, clutched it to her chest, and died. And that very second, the bell went off for the end of the period, and the students gave me a round of applause. One of my all time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the highlights of your drama."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had done some research. Gloria mentioned Sadar Sheba. And what I told my students about my understanding now Ethiopian legend was that the Queen of Sheba went to Jerusalem to visit Solomon and that the offspring of that visit became Menelik I. My take on that story was that Sheba was not Ethiopian. Sheba was Yemeni."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was from Saba, which was the term of Yemen, and that the history of the early part of the Ethiopian Empire. The first Ethiopian empire that came up to Axum was there had been a mixture of Yemeni immigrants across the Red Sea and indigenous populations. So my theory to them was that this legend of Solomon and Sheba came across with the Yemenis who had emigrated into the highlands of northern Ethiopia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Red Sea was much smaller than we were taught."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.818939783008318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had done some research. Gloria mentioned Sadar Sheba. And what I told my students about my understanding now Ethiopian legend was that the Queen of Sheba went to Jerusalem to visit Solomon and that the offspring of that visit became Menelik I. My take on that story was that Sheba was not Ethiopian. Sheba was Yemeni."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was from Saba, which was the term of Yemen, and that the history of the early part of the Ethiopian Empire. The first Ethiopian empire that came up to Axum was there had been a mixture of Yemeni immigrants across the Red Sea and indigenous populations. So my theory to them was that this legend of Solomon and Sheba came across with the Yemenis who had emigrated into the highlands of northern Ethiopia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Red Sea was much smaller than we were taught."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was traffic across and there was evidence of emigration across from the Yemenis so that the legend of Solomon and Sheba, I had prophesied to the students, was one that had been brought by the Yemenis and there was not an accurate historical rendition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's tied in with the Ark of the Covenant also. So did you get in trouble with your changing of history?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.183876275318911, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was traffic across and there was evidence of emigration across from the Yemenis so that the legend of Solomon and Sheba, I had prophesied to the students, was one that had been brought by the Yemenis and there was not an accurate historical rendition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's tied in with the Ark of the Covenant also. So did you get in trouble with your changing of history?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Uh, I said that more privately than publicly. The other story I thought I'd relate. We got, again following the curriculum for history, we got to the Middle Ages in Europe and talked about the Middle Ages in Western Europe and about the feudal system, about the nobles and the land tenure system and power of the church. And I had the greatest student in my class, was not from the local area. I'm not sure what his name. His name is Lackay Temechache. And he was definitely the sharpest. And I had students who were good, who could pick up the material and, you know, sort of regurgitate it back to you, you know, were good memorizers and good. And they were reasonably successful. But Lackay had insight. And as we were finishing up a section on feudalism, he raised his hand and said, sir? And they called you sir."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do we have feudalism in Ethiopia? And I looked around and I knew that somewhere in the class was somebody who was supposed to report back to the police if there was any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you said anything."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.982084750354346, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Uh, I said that more privately than publicly. The other story I thought I'd relate. We got, again following the curriculum for history, we got to the Middle Ages in Europe and talked about the Middle Ages in Western Europe and about the feudal system, about the nobles and the land tenure system and power of the church. And I had the greatest student in my class, was not from the local area. I'm not sure what his name. His name is Lackay Temechache. And he was definitely the sharpest. And I had students who were good, who could pick up the material and, you know, sort of regurgitate it back to you, you know, were good memorizers and good. And they were reasonably successful. But Lackay had insight. And as we were finishing up a section on feudalism, he raised his hand and said, sir? And they called you sir."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do we have feudalism in Ethiopia? And I looked around and I knew that somewhere in the class was somebody who was supposed to report back to the police if there was any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you said anything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Out of line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was always a monitor."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.743314506610304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Out of line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was always a monitor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I came up with a strategy. I said, Lackay, I'm a guest in your country. I've learned a lot about Ethiopia, but you know, I still only know so much. You all are from Ethiopia, you know your country, you know your society. And let's just go through the definition of feudalism and you just make up your own mind. And so we repeated the definition of the nobility, the land tenure system, the peasants who were providing their crops to the landlords, and the role of the church and the power of the land holdings of the church. And he just smiled at me. He had a big, bright, excellent kind of bright smile. He said, thank you, sir. And that's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the way I handled that. When I gave the final exams the last year, as a prize to the student who got the highest score on the final exam, I gave him my history books. I had some history books sent over by my family, some references and some other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, those treasured books."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.71479389623367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I came up with a strategy. I said, Lackay, I'm a guest in your country. I've learned a lot about Ethiopia, but you know, I still only know so much. You all are from Ethiopia, you know your country, you know your society. And let's just go through the definition of feudalism and you just make up your own mind. And so we repeated the definition of the nobility, the land tenure system, the peasants who were providing their crops to the landlords, and the role of the church and the power of the land holdings of the church. And he just smiled at me. He had a big, bright, excellent kind of bright smile. He said, thank you, sir. And that's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the way I handled that. When I gave the final exams the last year, as a prize to the student who got the highest score on the final exam, I gave him my history books. I had some history books sent over by my family, some references and some other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, those treasured books."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Lackay Temechache got my history books."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good for him. I'm sure he went on to the university."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.993572711399594, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Lackay Temechache got my history books."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good for him. I'm sure he went on to the university."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, and this. We questioned the purpose of providing this kind of academic education given the economic and social situation there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And part of my thinking was, you know, what can I do to help students? And I saw a distinction between the very top students who were potentially university material. And maybe this was arrogant, but I made a judgment. And students who were good to above average students but in my judgment at the time, they would really have a struggle making it to university, passing the 12th grade exam and getting into university. At that point, the structure was that if you finished 10th grade, you have the option of applying for what were called teacher training institutes, TTI."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I heard that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.540424800182278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I thought it would be beneficial to students who weren't likely to be successful university students, but who would be decent elementary school students to go through this TTI and get a decent job as an elementary teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I cajoled my way to the good graces of the director and said I want to be in charge of the committee that selects the applicants for teacher training. There was a formal process every spring as we completed each year. And so I found a couple, I found myself on the committee and was able to steer certain students who I thought would be best served by going in this direction to go into teacher training. And one of them was the student that lived with me the second year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Solomon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, this was another student who after Solomon left, Amenaza Hall, and I still have a couple of letters from Amenaza Hall. Unfortunately, as a southerner, he was sent to Asmara for teacher training. He was very unhappy. He was treated very badly. He was looked down upon by the Eritreans, but he made it and he came back to the rural parts of Arsi Province to be an elementary teacher. But he, and I lost track of him, letters came back without an address. You know, I didn't hear anymore. But the letters I do have told about the difficult time he had had in Asmara at teacher training institute. And then coming back and, you know, getting a job, but still not being totally comfortable about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the thing that I didn't realize is that making the transition between Tigrinya and Amharic was extremely difficult for the Ethiopians."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.667191111336145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, this was another student who after Solomon left, Amenaza Hall, and I still have a couple of letters from Amenaza Hall. Unfortunately, as a southerner, he was sent to Asmara for teacher training. He was very unhappy. He was treated very badly. He was looked down upon by the Eritreans, but he made it and he came back to the rural parts of Arsi Province to be an elementary teacher. But he, and I lost track of him, letters came back without an address. You know, I didn't hear anymore. But the letters I do have told about the difficult time he had had in Asmara at teacher training institute. And then coming back and, you know, getting a job, but still not being totally comfortable about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the thing that I didn't realize is that making the transition between Tigrinya and Amharic was extremely difficult for the Ethiopians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the northerners."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my students were Oromo. They spoke what we then called Gallinya. We were very much discouraged from learning anything other than Amharic. And I don't know if in the north?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, well see, the model for that was when India chose Hindi as their prime language along with English, even though they have a thousand languages. And Emperor Haile Selassie was convinced that that was the way to go in Ethiopia, one unifying."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.85243456815127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the northerners."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my students were Oromo. They spoke what we then called Gallinya. We were very much discouraged from learning anything other than Amharic. And I don't know if in the north?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, well see, the model for that was when India chose Hindi as their prime language along with English, even though they have a thousand languages. And Emperor Haile Selassie was convinced that that was the way to go in Ethiopia, one unifying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was thought to be a unifying force. So, you know, that's. I got some teachers into, some boys into teacher training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.1693717423903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my students were Oromo. They spoke what we then called Gallinya. We were very much discouraged from learning anything other than Amharic. And I don't know if in the north?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, well see, the model for that was when India chose Hindi as their prime language along with English, even though they have a thousand languages. And Emperor Haile Selassie was convinced that that was the way to go in Ethiopia, one unifying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was thought to be a unifying force. So, you know, that's. I got some teachers into, some boys into teacher training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought that was serving them well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had a career. Because for many, it was a stepping stone into government service and other things."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.521524158211445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was thought to be a unifying force. So, you know, that's. I got some teachers into, some boys into teacher training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought that was serving them well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had a career. Because for many, it was a stepping stone into government service and other things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In reflecting back on those years, I mean, there were the highs of, you know, the kind of question I got from Lackay Temechache about his insightfulness to the analogy between the feudalism described in Europe and his own society. The sort of playing to the crowd I did with the story of Antony and Cleopatra. And I'm sure the youngsters, there were youngsters everywhere, teenagers, they were all this talk of this beautiful woman sort of got them on the edge of their seats. And they burst into applause, was some of the highs. In our interactions with our fellow teachers, and I think more the Ethiopians. There were a few of the Indians who were more congenial than others."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like you had an international group there with the Frenchmen and the Filipinos."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.912804620234938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought that was serving them well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They had a career. Because for many, it was a stepping stone into government service and other things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In reflecting back on those years, I mean, there were the highs of, you know, the kind of question I got from Lackay Temechache about his insightfulness to the analogy between the feudalism described in Europe and his own society. The sort of playing to the crowd I did with the story of Antony and Cleopatra. And I'm sure the youngsters, there were youngsters everywhere, teenagers, they were all this talk of this beautiful woman sort of got them on the edge of their seats. And they burst into applause, was some of the highs. In our interactions with our fellow teachers, and I think more the Ethiopians. There were a few of the Indians who were more congenial than others."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like you had an international group there with the Frenchmen and the Filipinos."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The French and later. The Filipinos were kind of standoffish, kept among themselves. The single Indian men were much more congenial, interactive with the Peace Corps volunteers than were the married couples. And there were two or three. One of them, I recall, one of them was from Goa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A Portuguese colony."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.850212099087706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Portuguese colony. And I think it was, I don't recall the timing, but of course, Goa, which had been a Portuguese colony well into the sixties and when India had been independent and at some point, India just simply marched into Goa and took it over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was a Goanese and was still resentful of the takeover by India."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that they enjoyed Portuguese hegemony. But I'm sure they wanted their own independent state."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, they wanted an independent state. And the other thing, the Indians had been treated so badly by Idi Amin in Uganda also."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.592854443318156, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that they enjoyed Portuguese hegemony. But I'm sure they wanted their own independent state."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, they wanted an independent state. And the other thing, the Indians had been treated so badly by Idi Amin in Uganda also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is before that occurred. Idi Amin occurred later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The other, uh, there was a Sikh among the Indian teachers and he was a math teacher, as I recall. Ranganathan, but he was an outgoing kind of person, very friendly. But he recalled that he had been in the Indian Army, in the commissary corps, and he told us stories about the challenges of the commissary corps of the Indian Army trying to accommodate the wide variety of dietary requirements from, I guess, the Sikhs have certain dietary requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the Muslims."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.436504937020175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is before that occurred. Idi Amin occurred later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The other, uh, there was a Sikh among the Indian teachers and he was a math teacher, as I recall. Ranganathan, but he was an outgoing kind of person, very friendly. But he recalled that he had been in the Indian Army, in the commissary corps, and he told us stories about the challenges of the commissary corps of the Indian Army trying to accommodate the wide variety of dietary requirements from, I guess, the Sikhs have certain dietary requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the Muslims."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Muslims and the Hindus. And there was, so that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he wasn't a cook, he was in the commissary corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.685862482040633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I can speak to the single male experience myself. And I wonder what, I'm sure some single women have similar, but perhaps different, challenges as well. The couples, the stable couples, seemed to be very successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or more successful. I think a dysfunctional couple would be even worse than a single male."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And there were some divorces in the beginning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And as I may have noted earlier, there were some matings that occurred that it seemed sort of the odd couples. One of the fellows who was attacked by his students in Adwa, married another woman who was stationed in Adwa, and they had seemed like the oddest of odd couple. She was a perky redhead kind of life of the party, come on let's dance, kind of young woman. And he was the speckled, bespeckled, studious, you know, intellectual type. And I never quite understood how Craig Johnson and Deborah Kendall Johnson ended up as a couple, but they did, and that's how they're listed in the, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's wonderful. There's odd couples in the United States, too, that they don't need the Peace Corps experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.317624980045146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or more successful. I think a dysfunctional couple would be even worse than a single male."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And there were some divorces in the beginning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And as I may have noted earlier, there were some matings that occurred that it seemed sort of the odd couples. One of the fellows who was attacked by his students in Adwa, married another woman who was stationed in Adwa, and they had seemed like the oddest of odd couple. She was a perky redhead kind of life of the party, come on let's dance, kind of young woman. And he was the speckled, bespeckled, studious, you know, intellectual type. And I never quite understood how Craig Johnson and Deborah Kendall Johnson ended up as a couple, but they did, and that's how they're listed in the, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's wonderful. There's odd couples in the United States, too, that they don't need the Peace Corps experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, two of the other volunteers in our town ended up marrying Peace Corps volunteers. The other nurse that was in the town initially, Marge, married her husband doing something in Addis Ababa. They kept going back and forth, they were courting at the time. So she was either in Addis Ababa or Norm came down to Asella. So they spent a lot of time together and later married. So it's something that brought people together, the Peace Corps experience was an entree. I mean, the other thing I would say is that wherever I went, whether it was access into HUD through the Transition Center. It also helped me because as a Peace Corps volunteer, I had a noncompetitive access into the civil service for about 12 months. And that was within three weeks of finishing up that 12 months of noncompetitive access when I was actually hired.\n\nAnd it was always, you know, a point of discussion when you meet people, it's sort of labeled you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it's wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.130694422272384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And as I may have noted earlier, there were some matings that occurred that it seemed sort of the odd couples. One of the fellows who was attacked by his students in Adwa, married another woman who was stationed in Adwa, and they had seemed like the oddest of odd couple. She was a perky redhead kind of life of the party, come on let's dance, kind of young woman. And he was the speckled, bespeckled, studious, you know, intellectual type. And I never quite understood how Craig Johnson and Deborah Kendall Johnson ended up as a couple, but they did, and that's how they're listed in the, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's wonderful. There's odd couples in the United States, too, that they don't need the Peace Corps experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, two of the other volunteers in our town ended up marrying Peace Corps volunteers. The other nurse that was in the town initially, Marge, married her husband doing something in Addis Ababa. They kept going back and forth, they were courting at the time. So she was either in Addis Ababa or Norm came down to Asella. So they spent a lot of time together and later married. So it's something that brought people together, the Peace Corps experience was an entree. I mean, the other thing I would say is that wherever I went, whether it was access into HUD through the Transition Center. It also helped me because as a Peace Corps volunteer, I had a noncompetitive access into the civil service for about 12 months. And that was within three weeks of finishing up that 12 months of noncompetitive access when I was actually hired.\n\nAnd it was always, you know, a point of discussion when you meet people, it's sort of labeled you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it's wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But at the same time, it was an entrée."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I agree."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.92299380252487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, two of the other volunteers in our town ended up marrying Peace Corps volunteers. The other nurse that was in the town initially, Marge, married her husband doing something in Addis Ababa. They kept going back and forth, they were courting at the time. So she was either in Addis Ababa or Norm came down to Asella. So they spent a lot of time together and later married. So it's something that brought people together, the Peace Corps experience was an entree. I mean, the other thing I would say is that wherever I went, whether it was access into HUD through the Transition Center. It also helped me because as a Peace Corps volunteer, I had a noncompetitive access into the civil service for about 12 months. And that was within three weeks of finishing up that 12 months of noncompetitive access when I was actually hired.\n\nAnd it was always, you know, a point of discussion when you meet people, it's sort of labeled you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it's wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But at the same time, it was an entrée."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I agree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I got along with the man who was assistant general counsel at HUD, who I worked with on program rules and regulations, who had been a Colombia volunteer. And he became a major attorney at HUD. Brilliant, just, Harvard Law and one of the most brilliant minds that I ever ran across."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you come to Denver?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.760545347545902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we ended up switching jobs. I was assigned to his job in Denver and he took my position in Washington. And that was the spring of 1984 and I've been here ever since."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired here in December of '83, '03, December of '03. Continue doing consulting work on HUD programs, doing what I know, doing that occasionally. Joining the Returned Peace Corps Volunteers of Colorado group. I frankly have been so wrapped up in my own life I haven't done a lot of things with the group. Seeing the article about this oral history project was what got me going. I'll mention also that coincidentally, in the newsletter of the Ethiopia and Eritrea Returned Peace Corps Volunteer group, the national group of Ethiopia volunteers, it's affiliated with the National Peace Corps Association. An article that just arrived a few weeks ago was from someone who was in our town, in my town. Loretta Huber Davis is the woman I have mentioned previously who was back in Asella. She is now in Shashamane teaching elementary school teachers English. It included her email address. So I've been emailing between."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we've also found Jack Hamilton, or we think we have a lead, who ended up residing in La Paz, Bolivia. One other story about one of the other things I acquired in Ethiopia. In the early years, and maybe you may have been involved in this Gloria, there was a need for culturally appropriate reading material in elementary language, and a fellow named Shlomo Bachrach and some volunteers assembled a group of stories and published them through the Oxford Press called Ethiopian Folktales."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And Wolf, Dr. Wolf Laszlo, who is deceased now, who was our language instructor in school at UCLA, helped Shlomo with that project."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.414182819, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he did this woodcut of a woman with a jug on her shoulder."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Famous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I have number 3 of 40 in my, uh, sitting in my dining room. I've attempted to get, and I've asked Loretta to look for copies of the original edition with the illustrations. I could not part with this memento of my Ethiopia years, but I would be willing to loan it to the Denver Art Museum. And interestingly enough, one of the local prominent bankers was a man named Daniel Yohannes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a regional executive officer of some sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With U.S. Bank in Denver."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.237980910000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I have number 3 of 40 in my, uh, sitting in my dining room. I've attempted to get, and I've asked Loretta to look for copies of the original edition with the illustrations. I could not part with this memento of my Ethiopia years, but I would be willing to loan it to the Denver Art Museum. And interestingly enough, one of the local prominent bankers was a man named Daniel Yohannes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a regional executive officer of some sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With U.S. Bank in Denver."}, {"role": "user", "content": "U.S. Bank. And he recently retired and he has gone on to the board of the Denver Art Museum. And the article that I recall reading about announcing his appointment to the board of the museum is that he'd like to enhance the African exhibits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of his pieces are on loan."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.9310899, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was a regional executive officer of some sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With U.S. Bank in Denver."}, {"role": "user", "content": "U.S. Bank. And he recently retired and he has gone on to the board of the Denver Art Museum. And the article that I recall reading about announcing his appointment to the board of the museum is that he'd like to enhance the African exhibits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of his pieces are on loan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, once I am able to authenticate it, what I would like to be able to do is have a copy of Ethiopian Folktales with the illustration. I would be, my purchase is the second edition of 1969. My understanding from my email to Folaca Arnida Munir is that the first edition had the illustrations, but they didn't include them in the second edition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the cost of printing probably."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.701211, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "U.S. Bank. And he recently retired and he has gone on to the board of the Denver Art Museum. And the article that I recall reading about announcing his appointment to the board of the museum is that he'd like to enhance the African exhibits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of his pieces are on loan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, once I am able to authenticate it, what I would like to be able to do is have a copy of Ethiopian Folktales with the illustration. I would be, my purchase is the second edition of 1969. My understanding from my email to Folaca Arnida Munir is that the first edition had the illustrations, but they didn't include them in the second edition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the cost of printing probably."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or whatever, yeah. So if I'm able to document that and have so called the provenance clear, my plan is to contact Daniel Yohannes and offer my painting for whatever appropriate exhibits. On loan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. On loan, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.2731, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or whatever, yeah. So if I'm able to document that and have so called the provenance clear, my plan is to contact Daniel Yohannes and offer my painting for whatever appropriate exhibits. On loan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. On loan, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Any other reflections that I missed? So, you know, I think on the whole, despite the ups and downs, my Peace Corps experience was successful for me. I stuck it out and I stayed two years where many of the volunteers did not. I was the last American teacher at the secondary school in Asella. And they moved, they built a new school in a different part of town just, that opened just after I left. I understand they were about to put in running water into the town that following year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, fabulous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Apparently they have real hotels instead of just the little hotel bates. And so apparently the town has grown up quite a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it must have. The population has just ballooned in size"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.51, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Apparently they have real hotels instead of just the little hotel bates. And so apparently the town has grown up quite a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it must have. The population has just ballooned in size"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just exploded. Going back is one of the pieces of my dream trip. Sometimes dreams come true, sometimes they don't. I may have mentioned, although I'm 62 now, I have still have teenagers at home. I started a family late, so responsibilities there prevent just bopping off and heading out for a tour of places I'd like to go, everything from South Africa. I mentioned that in 1970 when I was leaving, I was considering traveling to South Africa and I have relatives in South Africa who are second generation South Africans. And was advised that because of my Peace Corps passport, that I would not be permitted to enter the apartheid regime of South Africa. But they had obtained all of the numbers, were able to recognize all Peace Corps passports and would refuse admittance to any of the liberal Peace Corps people types that, uh.\n\nSo I avoided that, but that would be something I'd like to do. Go back to Tanzania, Kenya and Ethiopia, of course. See what Asella is like. They have this, I have a little, on my computer at home I have a folder in my favorites section called Dream Trips."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I've actually priced the ticket, what I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's expensive, but it's worth it. Cause I went '95 for our 30th with a group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just exploded. Going back is one of the pieces of my dream trip. Sometimes dreams come true, sometimes they don't. I may have mentioned, although I'm 62 now, I have still have teenagers at home. I started a family late, so responsibilities there prevent just bopping off and heading out for a tour of places I'd like to go, everything from South Africa. I mentioned that in 1970 when I was leaving, I was considering traveling to South Africa and I have relatives in South Africa who are second generation South Africans. And was advised that because of my Peace Corps passport, that I would not be permitted to enter the apartheid regime of South Africa. But they had obtained all of the numbers, were able to recognize all Peace Corps passports and would refuse admittance to any of the liberal Peace Corps people types that, uh.\n\nSo I avoided that, but that would be something I'd like to do. Go back to Tanzania, Kenya and Ethiopia, of course. See what Asella is like. They have this, I have a little, on my computer at home I have a folder in my favorites section called Dream Trips."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I've actually priced the ticket, what I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's expensive, but it's worth it. Cause I went '95 for our 30th with a group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, well, this trip probably would be three months or more in duration and about a year or two ago was priced at somewhere in the neighborhood of $4,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It may be double now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00231:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I've actually priced the ticket, what I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's expensive, but it's worth it. Cause I went '95 for our 30th with a group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, well, this trip probably would be three months or more in duration and about a year or two ago was priced at somewhere in the neighborhood of $4,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It may be double now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure. So if I have to remortgage my house, so what. Um, so, um, here's my passport. Here's, uh, I can see that my name was misspelled with an A instead of an R. Got it amended. The person who amended this, it is a stamp. It's amended. I may have mentioned the beginning that I decided to go into the Peace Corps instead of the Foreign Service. The gentleman who I went to in the consular section to amend my passport, we got to talking and he was a graduate of the Woodrow Wilson School of International Politics and had a master's in international affairs. And I had applied to the Woodrow Wilson School at the same time I applied to George Washington. I was not admitted to the Woodrow Wilson School, but I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you impressed?"}]}
{"block_id": "veterans-oral-histories-00002:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.124160000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your education supported by the GI Bill?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got my master’s when I was active duty, and the Air Force paid for that. The only thing I had to do was service commitments, so with each course, I’d have to promise to do so many more months and I used the GI Bill for the PhD work that I did, and that helped, ‘cause it was pretty expensive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you ever tried accessing your military records on NARA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, mine are at Randall Air Force Base. The Air Force has them. They’re electronic, even though they were paper. I have a copy of them, and we actually take the records here for anyone that’s employed in St. Louis if they have military service and they work here. Our process is we take those records, and we put them in our secure cage area, which has very limited access, and we do that to safeguard the records, because we don’t want the individual who has access to records doctoring the record in any way or a staff member who maybe be upset with someone, doing something to a record. So anyone when you’re hired here in St. Louis, we check to see if you had military service and any other relatives within your family, and we’ll pull those records if they’re here, and we safeguard them. And then when the person retires or leaves, then those records go back into the general stacks. So mine is electronically in Texas, but I have a hard copy that’s in the secure cage here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you join a veteran’s organization?"}]}
{"block_id": "veterans-oral-histories-00002:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.582400000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got my master’s when I was active duty, and the Air Force paid for that. The only thing I had to do was service commitments, so with each course, I’d have to promise to do so many more months and I used the GI Bill for the PhD work that I did, and that helped, ‘cause it was pretty expensive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you ever tried accessing your military records on NARA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, mine are at Randall Air Force Base. The Air Force has them. They’re electronic, even though they were paper. I have a copy of them, and we actually take the records here for anyone that’s employed in St. Louis if they have military service and they work here. Our process is we take those records, and we put them in our secure cage area, which has very limited access, and we do that to safeguard the records, because we don’t want the individual who has access to records doctoring the record in any way or a staff member who maybe be upset with someone, doing something to a record. So anyone when you’re hired here in St. Louis, we check to see if you had military service and any other relatives within your family, and we’ll pull those records if they’re here, and we safeguard them. And then when the person retires or leaves, then those records go back into the general stacks. So mine is electronically in Texas, but I have a hard copy that’s in the secure cage here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you join a veteran’s organization?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I’m a member of the DAV, Disabled American Veterans. I had some training incidents, things where I got injured a little bit and then with my appendix rupturing and all that, so I’m a disabled vet, 30 percent. I’m active in that, although not really active on a local level, really more on a national level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you go on to do as a career after the service?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.048003953176574, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I joined the Peace Corps because it was something that I had always wanted to do. I remember as a high school student hearing President Kennedy talk about it, and I was very enthusiastic. It seemed like something that would be a big adventure and also a good way to give something back and be. And that, that motivation was really crystallized by the onset of the Vietnam War. For me, it was, the Peace Corps represented a perfect example of something that I could do that would be really good for the long-term interests of the United States and also for the country in which, to which I was assigned. So it just seemed like a good choice. And I followed up after, um, after a master's degree in civil engineering and was really pleased to be accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What was your life like before joining the Peace Corps? Sort of a little bit about your childhood, education. You told us you got your master's degree. Other experiences relevant to becoming a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a pretty sheltered suburban life in the San Francisco Bay area. I was encouraged by my parents to put a lot of energy into academics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, uh, they were both, they were both products of the combination of the Depression and World War II. And the idea that you could, you could be successful, get ahead by applying yourself in school, was just a constant part of growing up for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you talked a little bit. You got a master's, you studied, you had a baccalaureate and a master's degree in civil engineering, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.16444883686286, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a pretty sheltered suburban life in the San Francisco Bay area. I was encouraged by my parents to put a lot of energy into academics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, uh, they were both, they were both products of the combination of the Depression and World War II. And the idea that you could, you could be successful, get ahead by applying yourself in school, was just a constant part of growing up for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you talked a little bit. You got a master's, you studied, you had a baccalaureate and a master's degree in civil engineering, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you hear about the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.404943152069844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, uh, they were both, they were both products of the combination of the Depression and World War II. And the idea that you could, you could be successful, get ahead by applying yourself in school, was just a constant part of growing up for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you talked a little bit. You got a master's, you studied, you had a baccalaureate and a master's degree in civil engineering, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you hear about the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The news, when President Kennedy announced it. It seemed like a really revolutionary idea. And so why not?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And was there something specific that made you want to apply at that specific time in your life?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.783270168966494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you hear about the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The news, when President Kennedy announced it. It seemed like a really revolutionary idea. And so why not?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And was there something specific that made you want to apply at that specific time in your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, as I, as I said, the contrast between something that seemed very, potentially very useful for the United States and for other countries versus the Vietnam War, which seemed not useful at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So sort of a sharp contrast between war."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.314744632184993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The news, when President Kennedy announced it. It seemed like a really revolutionary idea. And so why not?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And was there something specific that made you want to apply at that specific time in your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, as I, as I said, the contrast between something that seemed very, potentially very useful for the United States and for other countries versus the Vietnam War, which seemed not useful at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So sort of a sharp contrast between war."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, at that time, I was a believer in the idea of national service. And I still am, more strongly than ever. And the Peace Corps seemed to be an example of very, very positive national service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. And did you have a specific country or program in mind when you applied?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.905271813538882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, as I, as I said, the contrast between something that seemed very, potentially very useful for the United States and for other countries versus the Vietnam War, which seemed not useful at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So sort of a sharp contrast between war."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, at that time, I was a believer in the idea of national service. And I still am, more strongly than ever. And the Peace Corps seemed to be an example of very, very positive national service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. And did you have a specific country or program in mind when you applied?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no specific country or program. I did express in my application a preference for Latin America, because I thought that the language and cross-cultural skills that I learned in the Peace Corps for Latin America would be useful for me later on in life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So what was your reaction when you were accepted?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.22807979282098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, at that time, I was a believer in the idea of national service. And I still am, more strongly than ever. And the Peace Corps seemed to be an example of very, very positive national service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. And did you have a specific country or program in mind when you applied?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no specific country or program. I did express in my application a preference for Latin America, because I thought that the language and cross-cultural skills that I learned in the Peace Corps for Latin America would be useful for me later on in life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So what was your reaction when you were accepted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was really pleased. The first thing I did was I went to an atlas and I found out where Honduras was on the map. And then I found out, and I remember that one of the things in the packet that we were sent was the CIA country briefing for the year on Honduras. And I think, I think I started to study that almost as soon as I knew about the acceptance. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you prepare yourself and others for entering two years of service? So what did your friends and family say? Let's do that first."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.330962707186394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was really pleased. The first thing I did was I went to an atlas and I found out where Honduras was on the map. And then I found out, and I remember that one of the things in the packet that we were sent was the CIA country briefing for the year on Honduras. And I think, I think I started to study that almost as soon as I knew about the acceptance. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you prepare yourself and others for entering two years of service? So what did your friends and family say? Let's do that first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I think some of my friends thought it was a good decision. Some of them were a little bit amused."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, um, my family supported the decision. Um. The. I mean, I was an adult. I could, I could do what I wanted. I think that my friends and family thought it would be an interesting opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And aside from reading the atlas and the CIA report, how did you prepare yourself for entering the two years of service?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.03440300798488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I think some of my friends thought it was a good decision. Some of them were a little bit amused."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, um, my family supported the decision. Um. The. I mean, I was an adult. I could, I could do what I wanted. I think that my friends and family thought it would be an interesting opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And aside from reading the atlas and the CIA report, how did you prepare yourself for entering the two years of service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I didn't really have to do very much because my technical training was taken care of, A, B, because I had the engineering degree and a master's. And I did wonder a little bit about my Spanish competency and stuff, but there was really nothing I could do. And I assumed that the Peace Corps had a lot more experience than I did in teaching people what they needed. So I went in with a, with an open mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have some Spanish beforehand?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.816003342205423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, um, my family supported the decision. Um. The. I mean, I was an adult. I could, I could do what I wanted. I think that my friends and family thought it would be an interesting opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And aside from reading the atlas and the CIA report, how did you prepare yourself for entering the two years of service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I didn't really have to do very much because my technical training was taken care of, A, B, because I had the engineering degree and a master's. And I did wonder a little bit about my Spanish competency and stuff, but there was really nothing I could do. And I assumed that the Peace Corps had a lot more experience than I did in teaching people what they needed. So I went in with a, with an open mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have some Spanish beforehand?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, absolutely none. I knew buenos dias and that was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did say previously that you had stated that you wanted to go to Latin America?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.79555926911714, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I didn't really have to do very much because my technical training was taken care of, A, B, because I had the engineering degree and a master's. And I did wonder a little bit about my Spanish competency and stuff, but there was really nothing I could do. And I assumed that the Peace Corps had a lot more experience than I did in teaching people what they needed. So I went in with a, with an open mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have some Spanish beforehand?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, absolutely none. I knew buenos dias and that was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did say previously that you had stated that you wanted to go to Latin America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And because you thought it would be worthwhile experience for you in the future."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 21.995065854574598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, absolutely none. I knew buenos dias and that was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did say previously that you had stated that you wanted to go to Latin America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And because you thought it would be worthwhile experience for you in the future."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Relevant. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And, um, and were you specifically invited to do a particular project?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.759340561203203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Relevant. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And, um, and were you specifically invited to do a particular project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The, uh, SANAA, S-A-N-A-A, the Honduran government agency responsible for water supply and wastewater treatment systems throughout the country of Honduras, had asked for a civil engineer, which I was. My good fortune was that precisely at the time that I came, the agency SANAA had arrived and reached a tripartite agreement with Caritas, the Catholic relief agency in the United States, with the Honduran government and potentially with villages in Honduras to put in small gravity feed water systems to villages in Honduras that otherwise would not have been, um, would not have been able to be served by water systems and would not have had the political clout or the money to put in a traditional water system. And the way that the thing worked is Caritas donated PVC pipe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, the Honduran government put troops on the docks so that the pipe wouldn't disappear. They exempted it from import duties. SANAA, the government agency, agreed to do feasibility studies, site surveys, system design, and construction supervision of a system if it actually came to fruition. And the villages agreed to donate about $1,500 at that time, the equivalent of about $1,500, for some metal pipe that was used in specific parts of the system, some materials, bricks, reinforcing bars, concrete for water storage tank, and also to donate unskilled labor to dig and fill a trench, join sections of PVC pipe together and such like, basically put in some sweat equity.\n\nAnd the, I have no idea what the genesis was for that tripartite agreement, but it was wonderful because it meant that instead of putting in a couple of hundred meters of water line or sewer line in front of a Honduran congressman's house, just in return for political support, they could actually go out and help improve the, um, the lives of small villages in many different ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a great explanation. So I want to talk a little bit about training and preparation. So where and how were you trained to prepare for your assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.572937209769442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. So what did you do during your vacation time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "During my vacation time, I traveled into Latin America. Different countries. Yeah. Got with another, another volunteer, a couple of other volunteers and just went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very broadening. South America on $5 a day. Tica Bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And then what were your relationships with in- country nationals?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.798867870400002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. It took about a year before I felt reasonably comfortable. And I think my language capability continued to improve after that first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was greatest in the first year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. The improvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I think that the, what the initial language training that we had and the, was gave us the basics. I, I didn't really feel comfortable until, um, until about a year in country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did your role change over time with SANAA?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.776519856000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. The improvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I think that the, what the initial language training that we had and the, was gave us the basics. I, I didn't really feel comfortable until, um, until about a year in country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did your role change over time with SANAA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my role stayed about the same, although as, as my colleagues realized that I was, that I was more than sort of an interesting curiosity who might be useful to them, but they didn't have to pay for. As they realized that I could actually do the kind of work that they were doing as well, and that I, um, reacted sort of the same way that they'd seen other human beings react in comparable situations, that they felt more comfortable with me. And I got better at understanding some of the, some of the nuances of situations that they, that they found themselves in. How the bureaucracy worked that, that they were, within SANAA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, so I'm hearing maybe you understood their lives more just as they understood your life more."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.862799840000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I think that the, what the initial language training that we had and the, was gave us the basics. I, I didn't really feel comfortable until, um, until about a year in country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did your role change over time with SANAA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my role stayed about the same, although as, as my colleagues realized that I was, that I was more than sort of an interesting curiosity who might be useful to them, but they didn't have to pay for. As they realized that I could actually do the kind of work that they were doing as well, and that I, um, reacted sort of the same way that they'd seen other human beings react in comparable situations, that they felt more comfortable with me. And I got better at understanding some of the, some of the nuances of situations that they, that they found themselves in. How the bureaucracy worked that, that they were, within SANAA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, so I'm hearing maybe you understood their lives more just as they understood your life more."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I, I was introduced formally and informally to what their lives were like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. That's helpful. Um. What do you think were your main accomplishments?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.069777600000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my role stayed about the same, although as, as my colleagues realized that I was, that I was more than sort of an interesting curiosity who might be useful to them, but they didn't have to pay for. As they realized that I could actually do the kind of work that they were doing as well, and that I, um, reacted sort of the same way that they'd seen other human beings react in comparable situations, that they felt more comfortable with me. And I got better at understanding some of the, some of the nuances of situations that they, that they found themselves in. How the bureaucracy worked that, that they were, within SANAA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, so I'm hearing maybe you understood their lives more just as they understood your life more."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I, I was introduced formally and informally to what their lives were like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. That's helpful. Um. What do you think were your main accomplishments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. Um, being."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just the top five."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.410864000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I, I was introduced formally and informally to what their lives were like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. That's helpful. Um. What do you think were your main accomplishments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. Um, being."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just the top five."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Being part, I, well, the top one, I would say being part of an organizational effort to, by SANAA, to bring clean water and all of the concomitant benefits of clean water to people who otherwise would never have had a chance at it. So it was a, it was definitely a team effort. But I was able to help that team in some ways that maybe would have been more difficult for a young, a young Honduran engineer, okay? Because I came in with no preconceptions about how the water system ought to work in the village or how people would be able to contribute or whether the, whether the tripartite agreement would work. I didn't have any history with SANAA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Any regrets?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it's absolutely, absolutely life changing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are three goals of Peace Corps, in case you may not remember. A is to provide technical assistance where requested. B is to promote better understanding of Americans. And C is to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So in terms of providing technical, so how do you assess your service, let's say, in terms of providing technical assistance when requested or where requested? I've heard a lot so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To summarize, I. SANAA, the Honduran government agency for water supply and wastewater treatment, asked for specific technical assistance from a civil engineer. And I think I gave that to them in spades."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then to promote better understanding of America, Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I, uh. I worked, laughed, played, wept, hugged Hondurans. What they saw was pretty much what they got. And they, uh, to the best of my knowledge, I didn't make any enemies. And I think I made some friends that I still, I still stay in touch with, folks at that time older than I. Some of whom are no longer with us. Folks my own age and villagers that are now probably, were my age and now are probably dead. Yes. We shared a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Good. And to promote better understanding of other people by Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To summarize, I. SANAA, the Honduran government agency for water supply and wastewater treatment, asked for specific technical assistance from a civil engineer. And I think I gave that to them in spades."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then to promote better understanding of America, Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I, uh. I worked, laughed, played, wept, hugged Hondurans. What they saw was pretty much what they got. And they, uh, to the best of my knowledge, I didn't make any enemies. And I think I made some friends that I still, I still stay in touch with, folks at that time older than I. Some of whom are no longer with us. Folks my own age and villagers that are now probably, were my age and now are probably dead. Yes. We shared a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Good. And to promote better understanding of other people by Americans?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I understood Hondurans much better by the time I had left. And I, whenever I've had the chance, I try to explain some of what I saw through my eyes to my compatriots who might not have the same point of view or might not understand actions by people, people living at the very edge of existence with a, with a safety factor only slightly greater than one. You know, why they make the decisions they do, rather than why don't they? Why don't they just get smart and do it the way we do here in the U.S.?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So through the years, have you continued to have any involvement with your country of service or contact with people from that country? Some of this you answered maybe. Any continuing and then any continuing Peace Corps involvement or other third goal activities such as explaining understanding of other people by Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I understood Hondurans much better by the time I had left. And I, whenever I've had the chance, I try to explain some of what I saw through my eyes to my compatriots who might not have the same point of view or might not understand actions by people, people living at the very edge of existence with a, with a safety factor only slightly greater than one. You know, why they make the decisions they do, rather than why don't they? Why don't they just get smart and do it the way we do here in the U.S.?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So through the years, have you continued to have any involvement with your country of service or contact with people from that country? Some of this you answered maybe. Any continuing and then any continuing Peace Corps involvement or other third goal activities such as explaining understanding of other people by Americans?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've had no, no formal continued relationship with the Peace Corps. I worked professionally, short courses, workshops with, um, universities and other institutions in many different Latin American countries, including Honduras. I was last in Honduras in 2014 doing a, uh, a masonry course. One week for professors and then the second week for students, with the professors helping me teach the students so that each one teach one sort of thing. A good model. And I felt very, very pleased to borrow it from the Peace Corps. And, yes, I still stay in touch with people whose friendships I've made over the years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you, I think you've said this before, but the effect of Peace Corps on your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Defining, the defining experience of my life. If I were to look back at one thing that I would certainly do again, I certainly would recommend to anybody else, it would be, it would be Peace Corps. It was changed my life in many, many ways. Practically all of them positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Is there anything else you'd like to add?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00150:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've had no, no formal continued relationship with the Peace Corps. I worked professionally, short courses, workshops with, um, universities and other institutions in many different Latin American countries, including Honduras. I was last in Honduras in 2014 doing a, uh, a masonry course. One week for professors and then the second week for students, with the professors helping me teach the students so that each one teach one sort of thing. A good model. And I felt very, very pleased to borrow it from the Peace Corps. And, yes, I still stay in touch with people whose friendships I've made over the years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you, I think you've said this before, but the effect of Peace Corps on your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Defining, the defining experience of my life. If I were to look back at one thing that I would certainly do again, I certainly would recommend to anybody else, it would be, it would be Peace Corps. It was changed my life in many, many ways. Practically all of them positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Is there anything else you'd like to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would like to thank you for the opportunity to do this in addition or above and beyond just talking to a recorder, okay, this is probably the longest chance that the two of us have had to talk, okay, one on one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's, so it's been mentioned, you know, you could just read this to yourself and talk into a tape recorder. And so we were kind of toying with like, okay, so what does it mean to have an interview as opposed to just read yourself the outline?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.724413283291263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, yes, you had to explain what it is you would do. Then there was a committee that would decide whether that was worth doing, and whether you were the person that should do it. Were you good enough? The people who were the chemical analysts were actually given some unknown samples to analyze, and if their analyses didn’t come up to snuff, they didn’t get samples. So they were tested. There were people who did experiments on samples rather than do analyses, and basically they got samples by reputation, by their proven publication record. Fundamentally, you would submit a proposal, you would propose what kinds of analyses or what kind of studies you wanted to do, and then an august committee would evaluate these proposals and decide which ones would be approved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ever on that committee?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I was too much of a novice at that time. Years later, yes, but not in that first decade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of those fifty or sixty rocks that were collected for Apollo 12, how many of them were selected to be examined by PIs? Were all of them sent out, or were there a certain [number]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of them were studied by some people. Everybody didn’t study every sample. One investigator might get five or six pieces, five or six samples, or eight or ten, but nobody would get fifty or sixty samples from that many different rocks. Some of these analyses take a lot of time and effort, so they can only do a half a dozen samples a year. Some of the kinds of studies were very tedious, long, drawn-out procedures, and when you’re doing complicated isotopic age dating, sometimes it can take a couple of months to do one sample."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything in particular you learned from the Apollo 12 mission that you didn’t already know from the Apollo 11 landing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 29.69379253699029, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I was too much of a novice at that time. Years later, yes, but not in that first decade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of those fifty or sixty rocks that were collected for Apollo 12, how many of them were selected to be examined by PIs? Were all of them sent out, or were there a certain [number]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of them were studied by some people. Everybody didn’t study every sample. One investigator might get five or six pieces, five or six samples, or eight or ten, but nobody would get fifty or sixty samples from that many different rocks. Some of these analyses take a lot of time and effort, so they can only do a half a dozen samples a year. Some of the kinds of studies were very tedious, long, drawn-out procedures, and when you’re doing complicated isotopic age dating, sometimes it can take a couple of months to do one sample."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything in particular you learned from the Apollo 12 mission that you didn’t already know from the Apollo 11 landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We learned new things on every mission, certainly. [Apollo] 11 and 12 were a long ways from each other. If you look at the Moon, we see one side of the Moon, and Apollo 11 was very much near the eastern limb or terminator, and 12 was as far west as we went. They were probably the two most farthest apart missions, and they collected very different kinds of rocks. We were looking at two areas of the Moon that were father apart than any of the other sites. There was basaltic rocks, igneous basaltic rocks, but very different ones. They weren’t similar at all. So yes, we did, certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was looking at your biosheet the other day, and it said you were part of the Lunar Sample Preliminary Examination Team. Is that part of that group that you were telling me about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.437547263322546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of them were studied by some people. Everybody didn’t study every sample. One investigator might get five or six pieces, five or six samples, or eight or ten, but nobody would get fifty or sixty samples from that many different rocks. Some of these analyses take a lot of time and effort, so they can only do a half a dozen samples a year. Some of the kinds of studies were very tedious, long, drawn-out procedures, and when you’re doing complicated isotopic age dating, sometimes it can take a couple of months to do one sample."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything in particular you learned from the Apollo 12 mission that you didn’t already know from the Apollo 11 landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We learned new things on every mission, certainly. [Apollo] 11 and 12 were a long ways from each other. If you look at the Moon, we see one side of the Moon, and Apollo 11 was very much near the eastern limb or terminator, and 12 was as far west as we went. They were probably the two most farthest apart missions, and they collected very different kinds of rocks. We were looking at two areas of the Moon that were father apart than any of the other sites. There was basaltic rocks, igneous basaltic rocks, but very different ones. They weren’t similar at all. So yes, we did, certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was looking at your biosheet the other day, and it said you were part of the Lunar Sample Preliminary Examination Team. Is that part of that group that you were telling me about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. The test director was part of that group; I was part of that group. I was not on 11, because I told you I was in Alaska when that happened. But from 12 through 17, I was on that group. That was the Preliminary Examination Team—no, you said LAP?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Lunar Sample Preliminary Examination Team."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.29326822632413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. The test director was part of that group; I was part of that group. I was not on 11, because I told you I was in Alaska when that happened. But from 12 through 17, I was on that group. That was the Preliminary Examination Team—no, you said LAP?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Lunar Sample Preliminary Examination Team."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I was on that. There’s another group actually, LSAPT, Lunar Sample Analysis Planning Team, the people who actually decided which scientists would get which samples. I was on that committee a couple of decades later, but not at that time. That was a heavy-duty responsibility, and they worked a lot of long hours too. There was a lot of people clamoring for their samples, and this committee was the one that made all the allocations, so their work was cut out for them as well. But they had to have the results of the PET examination before they could do their work, so it was important to get that catalogue out because that catalogue went to this committee, too. Then they would look at the requests from the scientists who had been pre-approved before the mission, and then they would decide who’s going to get what samples, what samples are more appropriate for this person’s kind of study or that person’s kind of study. They made those decisions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow, it sounds like a lot of work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot of work. I mean those guys dedicated a lot of hours and a lot of time to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. How many geologists were working onsite at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 31.436964695915698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I was on that. There’s another group actually, LSAPT, Lunar Sample Analysis Planning Team, the people who actually decided which scientists would get which samples. I was on that committee a couple of decades later, but not at that time. That was a heavy-duty responsibility, and they worked a lot of long hours too. There was a lot of people clamoring for their samples, and this committee was the one that made all the allocations, so their work was cut out for them as well. But they had to have the results of the PET examination before they could do their work, so it was important to get that catalogue out because that catalogue went to this committee, too. Then they would look at the requests from the scientists who had been pre-approved before the mission, and then they would decide who’s going to get what samples, what samples are more appropriate for this person’s kind of study or that person’s kind of study. They made those decisions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow, it sounds like a lot of work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot of work. I mean those guys dedicated a lot of hours and a lot of time to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. How many geologists were working onsite at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "During the missions there was probably twenty or thirty, which was quite a large number. The number at MSC was about eight or nine that were permanently attached. I could give you an exact count, but it’s in that ballpark. Another twenty or twenty-five came in from the outside, not all at once necessarily, but over the years, at least that many were there, either on the allocation committee or on the PET team. People on the PET team were usually people who are used to describing rocks. That’s what they did as part of their science. A lot of the people who do nothing but analyze things weren’t as good as describing rocks because they hadn’t really done that as part of their routine kind of work. You chose people for the PET who made a profession of actually doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now I was reading in the ASK Magazine again, you had talked a little bit about the Lunar Database, and I was curious if you wanted to expand on that a little bit."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 32.70773855101744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot of work. I mean those guys dedicated a lot of hours and a lot of time to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. How many geologists were working onsite at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "During the missions there was probably twenty or thirty, which was quite a large number. The number at MSC was about eight or nine that were permanently attached. I could give you an exact count, but it’s in that ballpark. Another twenty or twenty-five came in from the outside, not all at once necessarily, but over the years, at least that many were there, either on the allocation committee or on the PET team. People on the PET team were usually people who are used to describing rocks. That’s what they did as part of their science. A lot of the people who do nothing but analyze things weren’t as good as describing rocks because they hadn’t really done that as part of their routine kind of work. You chose people for the PET who made a profession of actually doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now I was reading in the ASK Magazine again, you had talked a little bit about the Lunar Database, and I was curious if you wanted to expand on that a little bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Lunar Database is an interesting story in databases. In 1969, databases were pretty much a program that was part of a big computer and were very big and cumbersome. You would enter data into a database like that using punch cards. You’ve probably never seen one of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I’ve seen them over onsite, but they’re clearing them out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.18289810349115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s got to add up. There’s no missing sample here. That’s a sophisticated system, actually, to put that in computer language and have it all done in this complex way. Yes, the database has evolved tremendously, but because it was so simple in the first place, we don’t have records prior to 1980 in our database as to who had what samples, for example. That was just beyond the scope of the early databases. We just kept fundamental information. If you took this sample and split it into two, what were the two numbers, and what were the weights of the two samples? That was sort of the extent of the database."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there’s no history of who had the rocks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s all paper. We’ve got all handwritten, records, but it’s not in the computer. If somebody had the time to sit down for maybe two or three years and enter all this information, do nothing but entering information into the computer, we could get it in there. But that’s what it would take. You’d probably have to put a couple of clerks to work for three or four years to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you to migrate the system?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took five full-time programmers fourteen months and close to a million dollars to do that, when you consider the work that went ahead of it, too. You had to kind of write a requirements document for what you wanted it to do, then you actually had to do it. I don't know, it was about $800,000, I guess, $850,000, something like that. It was all labor. You get salaries for five people for fourteen months. That adds up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we are talking about Moon rocks, pretty expensive stuff. In comparison to—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.1285812880463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Sure. Yes, you could just walk in. There was no barrier. You didn’t have to shower in, shower out. The barrier disappeared. You were just allowed to go in, in your street clothes, and work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No bunny suits?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I’m trying to remember, actually. There were actually, well..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see pictures of people in Building 31."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. I’m trying to think. I actually don’t remember. If you look at the pictures from Apollo 15, for example—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, that photo we had of you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.476201431162556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I’m trying to remember, actually. There were actually, well..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see pictures of people in Building 31."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. I’m trying to think. I actually don’t remember. If you look at the pictures from Apollo 15, for example—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, that photo we had of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seems to me like I was wearing a normal shirt. We had on these hats, but I think we were wearing street clothes, as I remember. I’ll look at the picture again. I’m not even sure. It’s funny how some things you just don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it was over forty years ago."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.973557145736173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. I’m trying to think. I actually don’t remember. If you look at the pictures from Apollo 15, for example—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, that photo we had of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seems to me like I was wearing a normal shirt. We had on these hats, but I think we were wearing street clothes, as I remember. I’ll look at the picture again. I’m not even sure. It’s funny how some things you just don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it was over forty years ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it would be easy to look at some of the pictures and see what people were wearing, and I’ve got movies of people, so I’ll have to go back and look at the movie again. That’s one of the things I didn’t pay attention to. I was watching samples and watching them work with the samples, and didn’t pay attention to what they were wearing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you change the way you handled the samples at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.17158147595416, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. We can have links to the curation website. The only one that’s not on there yet is Apollo 12, interestingly enough. But it’s in the final stages of being ready to put on. I’m so busy right now I can’t order the last few photographs we need from the photo lab to finish up the catalogue. I’ve got to get that done. It just seems like I’ve got a million things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we’re happy you came to see us this afternoon, then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is one of the million things. (laughter)"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other than describing and working on those catalogues, what else were you doing during the Apollo missions and crew training, of course?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was doing crew training at the same time all this other stuff was going on. I worked with the 15 mission, and I did a little bit with 16 and 17, but not too much. I actually was building the laboratory that I came to NASA to build for the science I was going to be doing for the next thirty years or forty years, so when I wasn’t doing all those things, I was working on this laboratory, basically my science."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell us about that laboratory? You mentioned last time that it was an experimental petrology laboratory?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.96842386217129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is one of the million things. (laughter)"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other than describing and working on those catalogues, what else were you doing during the Apollo missions and crew training, of course?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was doing crew training at the same time all this other stuff was going on. I worked with the 15 mission, and I did a little bit with 16 and 17, but not too much. I actually was building the laboratory that I came to NASA to build for the science I was going to be doing for the next thirty years or forty years, so when I wasn’t doing all those things, I was working on this laboratory, basically my science."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell us about that laboratory? You mentioned last time that it was an experimental petrology laboratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that something NASA wanted or you convinced them to build?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.964915402412544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was doing crew training at the same time all this other stuff was going on. I worked with the 15 mission, and I did a little bit with 16 and 17, but not too much. I actually was building the laboratory that I came to NASA to build for the science I was going to be doing for the next thirty years or forty years, so when I wasn’t doing all those things, I was working on this laboratory, basically my science."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell us about that laboratory? You mentioned last time that it was an experimental petrology laboratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that something NASA wanted or you convinced them to build?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s interesting. I think I told you how I came to come to NASA. Did I tell you that story?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With Jack [Harrison H.] Schmitt? Yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.24388874015019, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of lab is never finished, but by ‘72 or ’73. The whole time I was here, I was working on it some. When I was training astronauts, not very much. But they had given me a couple of technicians, so I could give the technicians tasks, and they would do them while I was off training astronauts, so that was a big help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where is the lab located? I couldn’t find any information about it when I was searching for it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the time I had it, it was over in Building 261. But in ‘94, the lab was moved over to Building 31. The experimental lab, the one that I built, I’m not working in it anymore. I’ve sort of turned it over to a younger guy. It’s still there, and it’s in Building 31, in a windowless portion of the building, the high bay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I know where that is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If you go to the Ares website and look at the experimental petrology lab, they describe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was looking at the Roundups in the news [clips]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 21.382098600166877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the time I had it, it was over in Building 261. But in ‘94, the lab was moved over to Building 31. The experimental lab, the one that I built, I’m not working in it anymore. I’ve sort of turned it over to a younger guy. It’s still there, and it’s in Building 31, in a windowless portion of the building, the high bay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I know where that is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If you go to the Ares website and look at the experimental petrology lab, they describe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was looking at the Roundups in the news [clips]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The website for our directorate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some description of what the specifications and requirements were for the laboratory?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.41126353585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the early experiments that I did—which was really kind of neat—there was a particular basaltic rock on the Moon that had large pyroxene crystals, the technical term is phenocryst. Basaltic rocks are usually fairly fine grain, but sometimes they’ll have large crystals in them. This particular basalt from the Moon did have these large pyroxene crystals in a finer grain matrix of feldspar, and more of the same mineral, and maybe a little olivine. We actually duplicated that texture so well that you could look at our thin slice of the experiment and thin slice of the real thing and it was kind of hard to tell them apart. That was really neat. We were proud of that one. We were able to actually duplicate that texture very precisely and talk about the conditions under which those lavas came to the surface and how they crystallized."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other researchers working with you in the laboratory that you created?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had, over the years, probably at least twenty or thirty post-doctoral fellows coming from universities that would come and spend a couple years here working. I had probably eight or ten graduate students. NASA had these cooperative agreements where NASA would pay for the graduate student to do their studies at a university, but they would come to NASA and work with me to do part of their thesis. So I had several students like that, too, over the years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had quite a bit of responsibility."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was almost like being a professor in a university without having to teach courses, because you had post-docs and you had students. I never had more than a couple at a time, which was nice. I wasn’t like a professor swamped with eight or ten students or something. At one point I had maybe four, a couple of students and two or three post-docs at one time. That was a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you on their dissertation committees or thesis committees?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.6791817065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had, over the years, probably at least twenty or thirty post-doctoral fellows coming from universities that would come and spend a couple years here working. I had probably eight or ten graduate students. NASA had these cooperative agreements where NASA would pay for the graduate student to do their studies at a university, but they would come to NASA and work with me to do part of their thesis. So I had several students like that, too, over the years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had quite a bit of responsibility."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was almost like being a professor in a university without having to teach courses, because you had post-docs and you had students. I never had more than a couple at a time, which was nice. I wasn’t like a professor swamped with eight or ten students or something. At one point I had maybe four, a couple of students and two or three post-docs at one time. That was a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you on their dissertation committees or thesis committees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I would often go to the universities and be part of their dissertation committees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA encourage this type of relationship?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.199090785, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was almost like being a professor in a university without having to teach courses, because you had post-docs and you had students. I never had more than a couple at a time, which was nice. I wasn’t like a professor swamped with eight or ten students or something. At one point I had maybe four, a couple of students and two or three post-docs at one time. That was a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you on their dissertation committees or thesis committees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I would often go to the universities and be part of their dissertation committees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA encourage this type of relationship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes they did. Very much. It was a NASA program that they funded, and it was for the NASA scientists to participate. NASA realized that the kind of synergy you get in a university where you have professors working with bright young students, how good that synergy is. They wanted to duplicate some of that synergy within NASA itself. So they created the mechanism by which scientists working at NASA could fund and bring in post-docs and students. So yes, it was very much encouraged, and it was a very good program. Still do it. It’s still a program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It makes sense. Were there any other federal agencies that you may have worked with in conjunction with your laboratory?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 26.887878649999998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I would often go to the universities and be part of their dissertation committees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA encourage this type of relationship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes they did. Very much. It was a NASA program that they funded, and it was for the NASA scientists to participate. NASA realized that the kind of synergy you get in a university where you have professors working with bright young students, how good that synergy is. They wanted to duplicate some of that synergy within NASA itself. So they created the mechanism by which scientists working at NASA could fund and bring in post-docs and students. So yes, it was very much encouraged, and it was a very good program. Still do it. It’s still a program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It makes sense. Were there any other federal agencies that you may have worked with in conjunction with your laboratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you work with the USGS a lot, but most of the people that I worked with were in the university community, almost exclusively. Other than the U.S. Geological Survey, which was really more during the training and working with the surface experiments, when we’re actually on the Moon, I was almost exclusively with universities and university professors and students. I can’t think of any. Yes, I was just basically university."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed also on your biosheet that you mentioned that you were involved with the Geological Society of America’s Penrose Conference in 1976? Do you want to share the details of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00363:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 21.746499999999997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t like to say that about myself, but some people have said that, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s pretty neat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is kind of neat. Before I did that sort of thing, nobody had ever really thought about that. When I did my PhD at Stanford [University, Stanford, California], I tried to convince a professor to let me do that, and this was a professor who did experimental work and was very world-famous for it. But he just looked at me and he said, “No, no, no, that’s not going to work.” Well, it did work, ultimately, but he didn’t let me do it. I did something else under him, but I got a lot of experience at doing experiments, which was very helpful. He wasn’t convinced it would work, but it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I can see how it’s been so beneficial for so many researchers over the years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s kind of started a whole new area of ways to study things. Then the theoreticians get in and they can use some of this experimental data to then kind of make that step, to take a theoretical model and extend it beyond the parameters that you can do easily in a laboratory. But they can use the parameters that you get quantitatively in the laboratory, and then they can theoretically extend it further. It plays into a lot of different kinds of ways to study things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the other items that I’ve picked up from your biography was you served on the NASA study of basaltic volcanism?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.487554461459409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's start off by telling us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, and how you got interested in joining the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and I joined the Air Force when I was 17, right out of high school. And I was in the Air Force when John Kennedy and Richard Nixon had their debates. And I really, of course, everyone liked John Kennedy and he was my first president that I voted for, I just turned 21. So that'll tell you how old I am. That was in 1960. And after he was elected, he started the Peace Corps. And I had just gotten out of the Air Force. I got out in December of 1960. And so I thought, that's a great idea. However, I was on my way to having three kids, so I got started early with children. So I had to wait till they were grown until I could retire, which I did. I went, after I got out of the Air Force, I went to work for U.S. Steel, and then I went to work for Southwestern Bell, AT&T, and I got an early retirement in 1992. I went back and I did some traveling. My wife had died in the meantime, and so I was kind of footloose. And I remembered after I did some college courses, I decided it was time to fulfill my dream of being a Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So for all that time, over 30 years, 37 years, you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still had it on my mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still on your mind. That's amazing. So then how old were you when you applied in '97? You would have been?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.959943779579516, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still had it on my mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still on your mind. That's amazing. So then how old were you when you applied in '97? You would have been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In '97, I was 57."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "57, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it's easy for me to remember my years because they coincide with the year. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah, so I was 57, went to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your family think about you joining up? What did your kids think?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.066604199532796, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In '97, I was 57."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "57, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it's easy for me to remember my years because they coincide with the year. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah, so I was 57, went to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your family think about you joining up? What did your kids think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think the first one, Nepal, was kind of a shocker to them. But I'd been, since like I said, I retired in '92, so I'd been kind of floating around. So they were kind of used to me being on the move. They didn't, uh, they weren't really excited about me being gone for two years, which I wasn't, because my daughter, like I said, my wife had died and my daughter had some emotional problems, so I had to early term [terminate] in Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you there before you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.427906419176288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think the first one, Nepal, was kind of a shocker to them. But I'd been, since like I said, I retired in '92, so I'd been kind of floating around. So they were kind of used to me being on the move. They didn't, uh, they weren't really excited about me being gone for two years, which I wasn't, because my daughter, like I said, my wife had died and my daughter had some emotional problems, so I had to early term [terminate] in Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you there before you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there about three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was, yeah, she was really in, um, after I left, she had no one to rely on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was that all training or did you actually start your job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.808784910195875, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there about three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was, yeah, she was really in, um, after I left, she had no one to rely on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was that all training or did you actually start your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was all training. I finished up right before swearing in. I said, I got to go home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's too bad."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.343094344662083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was, yeah, she was really in, um, after I left, she had no one to rely on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was that all training or did you actually start your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was all training. I finished up right before swearing in. I said, I got to go home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's too bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was so reluctant. I wrote a nice letter about telling them it wasn't because of Peace Corps, it was because of family matters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, that happens."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.047882605180092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was all training. I finished up right before swearing in. I said, I got to go home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's too bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was so reluctant. I wrote a nice letter about telling them it wasn't because of Peace Corps, it was because of family matters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, that happens."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it was one of those things and I've thought about this. Anyway, it was very distressful that I had to leave but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that your first time overseas or your first time in Asia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.93565753725937, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it was one of those things and I've thought about this. Anyway, it was very distressful that I had to leave but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that your first time overseas or your first time in Asia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was in the Air Force."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had done some overseas stuff. I'd been through Europe and some other places, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But going to another country in Peace Corps was a little different than going in the Air Force, isn't it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.11809572501157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had done some overseas stuff. I'd been through Europe and some other places, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But going to another country in Peace Corps was a little different than going in the Air Force, isn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was a little different. Yeah, actually, I really enjoyed the people in Nepal. They were great. The country is fantastic. It's beautiful. Very, very poor. But just incredible people. And I lived with a family, actually I lived with a Gurkha family in Nepal. And he had been, he retired from the British Army. The Gurkhas are the soldiers that guard the British embassies, as you probably know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was about I'd say five foot six and about five foot six wide. He was just solid, solid as a rock. In fact, he was the mayor of Pokhara and I was living with him. And it was my introduction to cricket, which I still don't understand totally, but it's a great. It was great. He had come to my room and he'd knock on the door and say, time for us to have a drink of Scotch and watch cricket. Great. So he was really a great guy. And then he had three little kids and his daughter would knock on my door every morning and say, your milk chai is ready. Super. Anyway, as I said, I was very reluctant to leave, but it was best for my daughter. And now she's, after a couple of years, she was doing fine so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh good. That worked out. Any memorable experiences there in Nepal, before we move on to the next country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.380365092606874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was about I'd say five foot six and about five foot six wide. He was just solid, solid as a rock. In fact, he was the mayor of Pokhara and I was living with him. And it was my introduction to cricket, which I still don't understand totally, but it's a great. It was great. He had come to my room and he'd knock on the door and say, time for us to have a drink of Scotch and watch cricket. Great. So he was really a great guy. And then he had three little kids and his daughter would knock on my door every morning and say, your milk chai is ready. Super. Anyway, as I said, I was very reluctant to leave, but it was best for my daughter. And now she's, after a couple of years, she was doing fine so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh good. That worked out. Any memorable experiences there in Nepal, before we move on to the next country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, we did. We did hike the Annapurna Trail, not all the way, but we all know when we had time off in Pokhara, we would hike up the Annapurna Trail and see some really fantastic sights. I remember, we got there in February and it was overcast. You couldn't see the Himalayas. And then in, I guess it was March, the clouds cleared and it was, it's hard to describe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it's like, it's like trying to talk about the Grand Canyon. You've got to go see it and you've got to go see the Himalayas too. It's totally different from being able to, actually even different from looking at a photograph, seeing it in 3D with being right there. It's just fantastic. Anyway, that's about all I got for. The food was great. I got real vegetarian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah? Was it mostly vegetarian diet?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.644850102896527, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, we did. We did hike the Annapurna Trail, not all the way, but we all know when we had time off in Pokhara, we would hike up the Annapurna Trail and see some really fantastic sights. I remember, we got there in February and it was overcast. You couldn't see the Himalayas. And then in, I guess it was March, the clouds cleared and it was, it's hard to describe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, it's like, it's like trying to talk about the Grand Canyon. You've got to go see it and you've got to go see the Himalayas too. It's totally different from being able to, actually even different from looking at a photograph, seeing it in 3D with being right there. It's just fantastic. Anyway, that's about all I got for. The food was great. I got real vegetarian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah? Was it mostly vegetarian diet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you, what did your training consist of, was it Hindi language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.265247040612996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you, what did your training consist of, was it Hindi language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And Sanskrit. Their alphabet is Sanskrit and the language is extremely difficult. But I did pick up some of it. I was going, I was doing pretty good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was because I was only 57 at the time. So my brain was still working pretty good then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you lived with the family full time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.739163378458883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And Sanskrit. Their alphabet is Sanskrit and the language is extremely difficult. But I did pick up some of it. I was going, I was doing pretty good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was because I was only 57 at the time. So my brain was still working pretty good then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you lived with the family full time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty, pretty good immersion there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 15.265737087176536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was because I was only 57 at the time. So my brain was still working pretty good then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you lived with the family full time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty, pretty good immersion there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, it was great. Oh, we did go to a wedding which was, uh, the Gurkha took me there and his name was Sanjay of course. But yeah, we did go to a wedding. It was very interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So it must have been hard to leave. But then it was a few years later, about five years later, you decided?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.673749490341402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, it was great. Oh, we did go to a wedding which was, uh, the Gurkha took me there and his name was Sanjay of course. But yeah, we did go to a wedding. It was very interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So it must have been hard to leave. But then it was a few years later, about five years later, you decided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But after the Nepal experience, I did some consulting back with AT&T and did some traveling overseas, went to China and a few places like that. And then I decided it was time to do Peace Corps again and do it right. My daughter was fine, all my kids were doing good. So I actually applied for the Caribbean, Central or South America. And they said, how about Nepal? I mean, Ukraine. I said, sure, why not? So I always wanted to see if it was really an evil empire, as President Reagan had called it. So I went to, I went to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ukraine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ukraine! I'll get it straight here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's understandable. So you were willing to go anywhere then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.081943878157114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But after the Nepal experience, I did some consulting back with AT&T and did some traveling overseas, went to China and a few places like that. And then I decided it was time to do Peace Corps again and do it right. My daughter was fine, all my kids were doing good. So I actually applied for the Caribbean, Central or South America. And they said, how about Nepal? I mean, Ukraine. I said, sure, why not? So I always wanted to see if it was really an evil empire, as President Reagan had called it. So I went to, I went to Nepal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ukraine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ukraine! I'll get it straight here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's understandable. So you were willing to go anywhere then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, sure. Anything. Yeah, I was on my own and ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the application process any more difficult a second time, or were they understanding about the first time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.535493197952349, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ukraine! I'll get it straight here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's understandable. So you were willing to go anywhere then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, sure. Anything. Yeah, I was on my own and ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the application process any more difficult a second time, or were they understanding about the first time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. About a year. Just like the first time. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then so you applied for Ukraine and then your kids must have thought you were going crazy again."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.150547997724832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, sure. Anything. Yeah, I was on my own and ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the application process any more difficult a second time, or were they understanding about the first time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. About a year. Just like the first time. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then so you applied for Ukraine and then your kids must have thought you were going crazy again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This time they, I had been, like I said, I'd been doing some consulting work for AT&T and so I'd been traveling a lot. So they were, uh, they weren't as reluctant as the first time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And now what about your peers or your friends and so forth? What did they think about you doing this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.938948145339296, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This time they, I had been, like I said, I'd been doing some consulting work for AT&T and so I'd been traveling a lot. So they were, uh, they weren't as reluctant as the first time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And now what about your peers or your friends and so forth? What did they think about you doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were kind of, I'd like to do that, but they never would have. So you know, we'd get a lot of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So supportive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then did you, was your training in country for Ukraine?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.5582279085587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. All my training has been in country. Yeah. Yeah. So we trained in a small town called Zhytomyr that's just outside of Kyiv."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was the Russian language. And I had gotten survival skills at Russian language so, which I've forgotten most of it. But I pick up, I can remember. I hear a word, I know what it means. I was in, I was a community developer in Ukraine, and I went to work for the DPOUU, which was the Disabled People's Organization Union of Ukraine. And, great organization. There's like, at that time, they told me, and I have no reason to doubt it, that there were almost 600,000 disabled people in Ukraine. A lot of them were disabled from the Afghan war."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were several people there that had lost limbs and were disabled. And after the fall of the Soviet Union, all the social services had evaporated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So these would have been Ukrainian soldiers that had been?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.9399907156816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we got, we were talking one day, and my plane. I was an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force and I was a crew chief on our planes were the C-121 Super Connie Radar Picket planes. They had ray domes on the back, on the top and the bottom, and they flew up and down the West Coast from the DEW Line, which was the Distant Early Warning Line in Canada down to Mexico and further on down than that. And we flew up and down the West Coast and we were. His plane was the version of the, Russian version of the B-29, which was a bomber. And he said, we would fly up towards your territory and then we'd veer off. I said, yeah, I know, we got you on radar there, buddy. I said, I'm glad you never crossed that line. He said, yeah, I am too. Anyway, actually he was disabled too. He had lost a leg in Afghanistan.\n\nAnd then I got, I was working with the people there and my counterpart, he helped us get a, uh. Everything they did was manual recordkeeping. They had file cabinets out the kazoo and everything. It took them so much time to find a record and then try to get people in some kind of support. So I managed to get them some computers for their, uh, with the help of my counterpart, mostly with his help. But we got some computers to automate and put a database in so that they could access their records faster. And then after that, we got another grant for. They had, I think it was ten or 12, I can't remember right now, but ten or 12 remote locations. The headquarters in Kyiv, and then they had remote locations around the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you lived in Kyiv?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived in, yeah, I was the last. Actually at the time I was the last volunteer that they let serve in Kyiv, the Russian Kyiv."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They didn't let anybody else serve in Kyiv and put them out in the country like this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were in an urban area and everybody else is out."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.655694076447993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got to see a lot of it, yeah. Got to see a lot of Ukraine. It was a beautiful country. The people were great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now tell me a little more about your job as community development, but you're working for this agency that takes care of handicapped people. So were you, what did you actually do for them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was working with them to help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Develop facilities or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To help develop their ability to serve their people, their disabled counterpart or compadres. Yeah, their comrades."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Help get them better organized?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.506326751608881, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was working with them to help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Develop facilities or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To help develop their ability to serve their people, their disabled counterpart or compadres. Yeah, their comrades."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Help get them better organized?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, helping them get organized and helping them make better, faster ways to get information and get their people served and things. So it was my second. My first site was with an ecological organization. But the guy that, the country director, Karl Beck, said, this guy is a con man, at the ecological society."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The head of the agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.340363057343202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To help develop their ability to serve their people, their disabled counterpart or compadres. Yeah, their comrades."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Help get them better organized?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, helping them get organized and helping them make better, faster ways to get information and get their people served and things. So it was my second. My first site was with an ecological organization. But the guy that, the country director, Karl Beck, said, this guy is a con man, at the ecological society."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The head of the agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I said, I agree. I was there about two days and I said, I agree with you. He said, let's go. Let's go find you something else to do. So that's when they got me to the job with DPOUU. Karl Beck was a great guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you the only volunteer in that organization?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.26707006371467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, helping them get organized and helping them make better, faster ways to get information and get their people served and things. So it was my second. My first site was with an ecological organization. But the guy that, the country director, Karl Beck, said, this guy is a con man, at the ecological society."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The head of the agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I said, I agree. I was there about two days and I said, I agree with you. He said, let's go. Let's go find you something else to do. So that's when they got me to the job with DPOUU. Karl Beck was a great guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you the only volunteer in that organization?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The only Peace Corps volunteer assigned to it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.29674451523852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I said, I agree. I was there about two days and I said, I agree with you. He said, let's go. Let's go find you something else to do. So that's when they got me to the job with DPOUU. Karl Beck was a great guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you the only volunteer in that organization?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The only Peace Corps volunteer assigned to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all of your coworkers were Ukrainian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.21860501693169, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The only Peace Corps volunteer assigned to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all of your coworkers were Ukrainian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All my coworkers were Russians or Ukrainians, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you probably had to speak Russian. Did you get pretty fluent?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.242894463257432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all of your coworkers were Ukrainian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All my coworkers were Russians or Ukrainians, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you probably had to speak Russian. Did you get pretty fluent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah, it was survival. I knew how to order food and I knew how to get a taxi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they knew English?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.9418450163672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah, it was survival. I knew how to order food and I knew how to get a taxi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they knew English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, they knew English. Yeah, they were good. Yuri was my counterpart, Yuri Oblaginin. And he told me he learned how to. I said, how did you learn? His English was excellent. Then how did you learn to speak so well? And he said, well, I listened to Beatles records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would ask my friends who spoke English and said, what is that? What does that mean? And they'd tell me, or my friends would tell me what they. And he said, I don't think so. He said, I'd investigate it and found out that they were wrong. And so he learned how to speak by listening to the Beatles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.93538335151911, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, they knew English. Yeah, they were good. Yuri was my counterpart, Yuri Oblaginin. And he told me he learned how to. I said, how did you learn? His English was excellent. Then how did you learn to speak so well? And he said, well, I listened to Beatles records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would ask my friends who spoke English and said, what is that? What does that mean? And they'd tell me, or my friends would tell me what they. And he said, I don't think so. He said, I'd investigate it and found out that they were wrong. And so he learned how to speak by listening to the Beatles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So what were your, what was your living situation like? Now you were in the city, so did you have pretty good living quarters?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.796769569776679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So what were your, what was your living situation like? Now you were in the city, so did you have pretty good living quarters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had an apartment. I lived with, in Zhytomyr I lived with a family. And then in Kyiv, I had an apartment. I lived in one of the old Soviet Union apartments. I'll say this for Khrushchev, he built a lot of apartments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And from what I heard, no one was homeless during the Soviet Union. Everybody had a job, so they say, whether they worked or not was another matter. But everybody had a job and everybody had a place to live and everybody had health care. So. Of course, after the fall, none of that existed anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you make friends in the community there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.885299521974087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had an apartment. I lived with, in Zhytomyr I lived with a family. And then in Kyiv, I had an apartment. I lived in one of the old Soviet Union apartments. I'll say this for Khrushchev, he built a lot of apartments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And from what I heard, no one was homeless during the Soviet Union. Everybody had a job, so they say, whether they worked or not was another matter. But everybody had a job and everybody had a place to live and everybody had health care. So. Of course, after the fall, none of that existed anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you make friends in the community there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your social circle mainly the people at work or did you also make friends with your neighbors?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.872555024415652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And from what I heard, no one was homeless during the Soviet Union. Everybody had a job, so they say, whether they worked or not was another matter. But everybody had a job and everybody had a place to live and everybody had health care. So. Of course, after the fall, none of that existed anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you make friends in the community there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your social circle mainly the people at work or did you also make friends with your neighbors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had, yeah, I had friends with my neighbors. I had a, I had met a schoolteacher. And she had three jobs. She was, actually she had been a, she had a PhD in, uh, not geography, but, uh. Oil. She was an oil developer. So she worked for a university and a high school and the Air Force Academy. So I would, she would get me to come out and talk about various things, about the Peace Corps and other things that I had knowledge of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She'd have you come into her classroom?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.969505582684057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your social circle mainly the people at work or did you also make friends with your neighbors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had, yeah, I had friends with my neighbors. I had a, I had met a schoolteacher. And she had three jobs. She was, actually she had been a, she had a PhD in, uh, not geography, but, uh. Oil. She was an oil developer. So she worked for a university and a high school and the Air Force Academy. So I would, she would get me to come out and talk about various things, about the Peace Corps and other things that I had knowledge of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She'd have you come into her classroom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what age were the students? Were they high school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.838895781091427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what age were the students? Were they high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the high school, they were high school students. At the geophysical university, they were graduate students. And then at the Air Force Academy, they were college students. It was. Actually the one I remember, the one speech or session I made at the Air Force Academy was about the trash, the way there's an incinerator that will burn trash, that will burn trash for a whole city I think. They use it in Brazil. And it would leave, um, it would generate electricity. So I had done a little research on it when I was in the States. And so I discussed that with the people at the Air Force unit, at the Air Force universe. They were very interested in it. It was a recycling type of facility that it never went anywhere, but they were interested in it anyway. They like to hear about stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So these were educated and worldly people. Do you think you had some, um, that you affected their perceptions of America?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.709884201212695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the high school, they were high school students. At the geophysical university, they were graduate students. And then at the Air Force Academy, they were college students. It was. Actually the one I remember, the one speech or session I made at the Air Force Academy was about the trash, the way there's an incinerator that will burn trash, that will burn trash for a whole city I think. They use it in Brazil. And it would leave, um, it would generate electricity. So I had done a little research on it when I was in the States. And so I discussed that with the people at the Air Force unit, at the Air Force universe. They were very interested in it. It was a recycling type of facility that it never went anywhere, but they were interested in it anyway. They like to hear about stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So these were educated and worldly people. Do you think you had some, um, that you affected their perceptions of America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think so. They, uh. I was always getting invited to places. And actually I met the exclusion zone director of Chernobyl, and just happened to bump into him with a friend of mine. And they were always glad to have me come over and they were just great with me and we all got along great. They were always wanting to know about the United States and how we thought and everything. So, yeah, I think. I think I left, I hope I left a good impression."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have any kind of preconceived notions about the Ukrainian or Russian people before you went there that might have changed after getting to know them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 8.566538001347439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So these were educated and worldly people. Do you think you had some, um, that you affected their perceptions of America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think so. They, uh. I was always getting invited to places. And actually I met the exclusion zone director of Chernobyl, and just happened to bump into him with a friend of mine. And they were always glad to have me come over and they were just great with me and we all got along great. They were always wanting to know about the United States and how we thought and everything. So, yeah, I think. I think I left, I hope I left a good impression."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have any kind of preconceived notions about the Ukrainian or Russian people before you went there that might have changed after getting to know them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I realized that it didn't take me long to figure it out, that the people are people, you know, Well, the interesting thing was, on each floor we stayed. Our initial location was at the Zhytomyr Hotel, which was the class hotel. However, we didn't have hot water. This was in February, so it was pretty cold. And on each floor they had an operator station. I'd plug in. And I'm thinking, if they want to listen to what you're doing, all they have to do is plug into your room, you know? There's no privacy if you're worried about that. I was never worried about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they could be spying on you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9628200014971533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think so. They, uh. I was always getting invited to places. And actually I met the exclusion zone director of Chernobyl, and just happened to bump into him with a friend of mine. And they were always glad to have me come over and they were just great with me and we all got along great. They were always wanting to know about the United States and how we thought and everything. So, yeah, I think. I think I left, I hope I left a good impression."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have any kind of preconceived notions about the Ukrainian or Russian people before you went there that might have changed after getting to know them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I realized that it didn't take me long to figure it out, that the people are people, you know, Well, the interesting thing was, on each floor we stayed. Our initial location was at the Zhytomyr Hotel, which was the class hotel. However, we didn't have hot water. This was in February, so it was pretty cold. And on each floor they had an operator station. I'd plug in. And I'm thinking, if they want to listen to what you're doing, all they have to do is plug into your room, you know? There's no privacy if you're worried about that. I was never worried about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they could be spying on you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't care. But, yeah, I could see that they were spied on, you know? And, you know, we heard about, you know, they didn't have much freedom and everything. And I talked to some people. This one, the mother of the lady I stayed with in Zhytomyr had been one of the slaves during the Nazis. Now they made reparations. The Germans made reparations to the people that they had enslaved in Poland and in Ukraine. And she had gotten $10,000 from Germany. And she said, that's more than I ever got from the Soviet Union. She was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You stayed with her during training, when you were in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.403133334996837, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I realized that it didn't take me long to figure it out, that the people are people, you know, Well, the interesting thing was, on each floor we stayed. Our initial location was at the Zhytomyr Hotel, which was the class hotel. However, we didn't have hot water. This was in February, so it was pretty cold. And on each floor they had an operator station. I'd plug in. And I'm thinking, if they want to listen to what you're doing, all they have to do is plug into your room, you know? There's no privacy if you're worried about that. I was never worried about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they could be spying on you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't care. But, yeah, I could see that they were spied on, you know? And, you know, we heard about, you know, they didn't have much freedom and everything. And I talked to some people. This one, the mother of the lady I stayed with in Zhytomyr had been one of the slaves during the Nazis. Now they made reparations. The Germans made reparations to the people that they had enslaved in Poland and in Ukraine. And she had gotten $10,000 from Germany. And she said, that's more than I ever got from the Soviet Union. She was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You stayed with her during training, when you were in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, during training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Ukraine again, did you live with a family during your entire training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.892370372218707, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't care. But, yeah, I could see that they were spied on, you know? And, you know, we heard about, you know, they didn't have much freedom and everything. And I talked to some people. This one, the mother of the lady I stayed with in Zhytomyr had been one of the slaves during the Nazis. Now they made reparations. The Germans made reparations to the people that they had enslaved in Poland and in Ukraine. And she had gotten $10,000 from Germany. And she said, that's more than I ever got from the Soviet Union. She was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You stayed with her during training, when you were in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, during training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Ukraine again, did you live with a family during your entire training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I had my own apartment in Kyiv. I had my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean during training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.324855969131897, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, during training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Ukraine again, did you live with a family during your entire training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I had my own apartment in Kyiv. I had my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "During training, I stayed with, I stayed with my friend Tamara. She was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was each volunteer assigned to a family to stay with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.805395521257663, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I had my own apartment in Kyiv. I had my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "During training, I stayed with, I stayed with my friend Tamara. She was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was each volunteer assigned to a family to stay with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't stay in a barracks or anything like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.9325870632810656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't stay in a barracks or anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the only time we stayed together as a group was at the Zhytomyr Hotel. We were glad to get out of there. It was, well, actually, and I was lucky. The lady I'd stayed with, Tamara, she had a kalocka. A kalocka is a gas water heater. And when you turn the hot water on the water kicks on the kalocka and it heats the water up. So I got to take hot showers. So it was like, oh, what a change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So OK, so it's like an instantaneous."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.480652292534517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the only time we stayed together as a group was at the Zhytomyr Hotel. We were glad to get out of there. It was, well, actually, and I was lucky. The lady I'd stayed with, Tamara, she had a kalocka. A kalocka is a gas water heater. And when you turn the hot water on the water kicks on the kalocka and it heats the water up. So I got to take hot showers. So it was like, oh, what a change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So OK, so it's like an instantaneous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was like, ooh, I'm in heaven. So, you know, it didn't take you long to appreciate the amenities that you had in the States that you didn't, that you had lost. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you stay in Ukraine for the entire two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.089613658371685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the only time we stayed together as a group was at the Zhytomyr Hotel. We were glad to get out of there. It was, well, actually, and I was lucky. The lady I'd stayed with, Tamara, she had a kalocka. A kalocka is a gas water heater. And when you turn the hot water on the water kicks on the kalocka and it heats the water up. So I got to take hot showers. So it was like, oh, what a change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So OK, so it's like an instantaneous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was like, ooh, I'm in heaven. So, you know, it didn't take you long to appreciate the amenities that you had in the States that you didn't, that you had lost. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you stay in Ukraine for the entire two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You completed your service there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.766237398190761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was like, ooh, I'm in heaven. So, you know, it didn't take you long to appreciate the amenities that you had in the States that you didn't, that you had lost. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you stay in Ukraine for the entire two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You completed your service there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you extend?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.51804155354529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You completed your service there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you extend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think about extending?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.35337950393921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you extend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think about extending?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My time was up. I said, it's time to go home. My kids were waiting for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you must have made some lasting friendships."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.28153278215468, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think about extending?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My time was up. I said, it's time to go home. My kids were waiting for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you must have made some lasting friendships."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I still have friends over there. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in touch with them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.312814202394087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My time was up. I said, it's time to go home. My kids were waiting for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you must have made some lasting friendships."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I still have friends over there. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in touch with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Yuri and Tamara and a couple of other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you been back to visit since?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.458682447104541, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I still have friends over there. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in touch with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Yuri and Tamara and a couple of other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you been back to visit since?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, been back a couple of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you completed two years there. And how did it feel when you left? Well, let me ask you. Do you feel like you had a lasting impact?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.6207582745606, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Yuri and Tamara and a couple of other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you been back to visit since?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, been back a couple of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you completed two years there. And how did it feel when you left? Well, let me ask you. Do you feel like you had a lasting impact?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I never. I never know. You know, they may have sold the computers the day I left, I don't know. But I think so. I think I feel good about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least on a personal level. Maybe with your personal connections with people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.911953638400666, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, been back a couple of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you completed two years there. And how did it feel when you left? Well, let me ask you. Do you feel like you had a lasting impact?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I never. I never know. You know, they may have sold the computers the day I left, I don't know. But I think so. I think I feel good about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least on a personal level. Maybe with your personal connections with people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made a good impression then."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.013281820445185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I never. I never know. You know, they may have sold the computers the day I left, I don't know. But I think so. I think I feel good about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least on a personal level. Maybe with your personal connections with people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made a good impression then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And right before I left, we set up. I got three grants for them and one of them was, the last one was for a computer training center to train some of the disabled people on how to do Microsoft Word and Office and things like that. So they were. I think they were, I think it had a little impact on them. You know, I don't think it changed the world over there, but it may have had a little impact on them, you know. At least I think I left them with a positive impression of Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's the important thing. Was it a pretty big program over there? How many, do you know how many volunteers there were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.155393443683378, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, uh, I think at one time there was like 200 and, over 250 volunteers in country. So it's fairly good, fairly good sized. And USAID was over there. They were active. I got a couple of second, actually secondary jobs too. One of them was working with my friend at the university and the other one was I worked with USAID. I would go over and teach there. Most of their staff was Ukrainian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they wanted to learn business English. And so I would go over on Thursdays and we'd have a couple of hour classes on business English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired, like I said, I retired from AT&T. I was a national account manager with AT&T, so I could explain things to them a little about business and how to write your letters and things like that. So they were very interested. Very smart people, very, very quick. And they all spoke English. Not perfect, but I left them with a Texas accent. So it was, that was my goal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. OK. So then you finished there in, it would have been 2004 sometime?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.283770492981532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they wanted to learn business English. And so I would go over on Thursdays and we'd have a couple of hour classes on business English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired, like I said, I retired from AT&T. I was a national account manager with AT&T, so I could explain things to them a little about business and how to write your letters and things like that. So they were very interested. Very smart people, very, very quick. And they all spoke English. Not perfect, but I left them with a Texas accent. So it was, that was my goal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. OK. So then you finished there in, it would have been 2004 sometime?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you came back home."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.093078325535036, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I retired, like I said, I retired from AT&T. I was a national account manager with AT&T, so I could explain things to them a little about business and how to write your letters and things like that. So they were very interested. Very smart people, very, very quick. And they all spoke English. Not perfect, but I left them with a Texas accent. So it was, that was my goal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. OK. So then you finished there in, it would have been 2004 sometime?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you came back home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back home, moved to Huntsville, Texas, built a house in a golfing community. Then got elected to city council there in 2000 and. Let's see, I was there two and a half years on city council, so I think it was 2008. Also, I started teaching ESL at the local library and did that for about. When I go back, I'll probably do it and still do it. So I've been doing it since I moved there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So volunteering is kind of part of your makeup?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.992309250594484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you came back home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back home, moved to Huntsville, Texas, built a house in a golfing community. Then got elected to city council there in 2000 and. Let's see, I was there two and a half years on city council, so I think it was 2008. Also, I started teaching ESL at the local library and did that for about. When I go back, I'll probably do it and still do it. So I've been doing it since I moved there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So volunteering is kind of part of your makeup?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, you know, it gives me something to do. Keeps me off the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that the Peace Corps experience has something to do with that continued volunteering?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.88034361177165, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back home, moved to Huntsville, Texas, built a house in a golfing community. Then got elected to city council there in 2000 and. Let's see, I was there two and a half years on city council, so I think it was 2008. Also, I started teaching ESL at the local library and did that for about. When I go back, I'll probably do it and still do it. So I've been doing it since I moved there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So volunteering is kind of part of your makeup?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, you know, it gives me something to do. Keeps me off the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that the Peace Corps experience has something to do with that continued volunteering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure it does. Yeah. You know, I taught. You know, I didn't just do my primary job in any of my countries. I always had a secondary position teaching English to somebody Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what made you decide that you needed a third Peace Corps experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.601294392005006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was ready to go back right away. But my kids taught me out of it, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I finally in 2010, I got unelected to city council and so I said, well, since I'm not going to have to do this anymore, which was kind of it's like, you know, I liked doing it. But whenever I lost the election, I went over with some buddies, like actually four of us on city council when they, the clean sweep. They got rid of all four of us at-large candidates and we all went over to the Stardust Ballroom and had a beer. And I said, now I'm feeling pretty good. So I got rid of, you know, I hated to lose, but it was, you know, it was time to go. And that's when I decided to go to Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I finally got to one of my, uh, I always put in for the Caribbean, Central America, or South America. And I got Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You finally got it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.55699376889445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I finally in 2010, I got unelected to city council and so I said, well, since I'm not going to have to do this anymore, which was kind of it's like, you know, I liked doing it. But whenever I lost the election, I went over with some buddies, like actually four of us on city council when they, the clean sweep. They got rid of all four of us at-large candidates and we all went over to the Stardust Ballroom and had a beer. And I said, now I'm feeling pretty good. So I got rid of, you know, I hated to lose, but it was, you know, it was time to go. And that's when I decided to go to Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I finally got to one of my, uh, I always put in for the Caribbean, Central America, or South America. And I got Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You finally got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got it, I got one. Yeah, yeah. It was great. I worked in the mountains with, I call them kahalurales. It's a little, the little small villages would all get together and come up with a product of some kind to sell to make money for their organization in the city, the little towns."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was kind of a co-op?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.131678695328464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it's kind of co-op, yeah. And I was working with Funder. Funder was an NGO that supported, uh, it was out of Spain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "F-U-N-D?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "F-U-N-D-E-R. And they were supporting the farmers and small villages. A lot of these small villages were like cooperative farmers. And they were working with peppers, the peppers they use in hot sauces from Louisiana. And were trying to get them to be exported. Quality wise, the quality wasn't quite as good as they needed in the Louisiana hot sauce."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know what, the hot sauce I'm talking about? The rich sauce."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Tabasco sauce?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.9240874392538485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "F-U-N-D-E-R. And they were supporting the farmers and small villages. A lot of these small villages were like cooperative farmers. And they were working with peppers, the peppers they use in hot sauces from Louisiana. And were trying to get them to be exported. Quality wise, the quality wasn't quite as good as they needed in the Louisiana hot sauce."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know what, the hot sauce I'm talking about? The rich sauce."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Tabasco sauce?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tabasco, tabasco peppers. They were also trying to improve the quality of the cocoa that they had down there. And they were trying to get it to the quality that they could get, sell it to the Swiss. So but. There's also. That was something they were working on, but they were also working with the different villages that were selling mostly tamales. And so I was doing a SWOT analysis with these small organizations. And we were also doing the four P's, product, price, place, and promotion, for them. And they, the women were, the interesting thing was the women were more driven to make a success than the guys were, than men were. And two or three of these kahalurales decided that since we were talking, what could you do with your, with what you have? How could you expand your product line? And they decided, well, maybe we could use the same material and make tamales, or yeah, tamales. No, they were making tamales. To make tacos and sell the tacos on the outside or in our little of influence around their village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would be like."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.804541599170943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know what, the hot sauce I'm talking about? The rich sauce."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Tabasco sauce?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tabasco, tabasco peppers. They were also trying to improve the quality of the cocoa that they had down there. And they were trying to get it to the quality that they could get, sell it to the Swiss. So but. There's also. That was something they were working on, but they were also working with the different villages that were selling mostly tamales. And so I was doing a SWOT analysis with these small organizations. And we were also doing the four P's, product, price, place, and promotion, for them. And they, the women were, the interesting thing was the women were more driven to make a success than the guys were, than men were. And two or three of these kahalurales decided that since we were talking, what could you do with your, with what you have? How could you expand your product line? And they decided, well, maybe we could use the same material and make tamales, or yeah, tamales. No, they were making tamales. To make tacos and sell the tacos on the outside or in our little of influence around their village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would be like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they expanded their product line. So I was pretty happy about that. I was kind of like, that was a nice success."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They would do like food carts, street sellers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.782823999078825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tabasco, tabasco peppers. They were also trying to improve the quality of the cocoa that they had down there. And they were trying to get it to the quality that they could get, sell it to the Swiss. So but. There's also. That was something they were working on, but they were also working with the different villages that were selling mostly tamales. And so I was doing a SWOT analysis with these small organizations. And we were also doing the four P's, product, price, place, and promotion, for them. And they, the women were, the interesting thing was the women were more driven to make a success than the guys were, than men were. And two or three of these kahalurales decided that since we were talking, what could you do with your, with what you have? How could you expand your product line? And they decided, well, maybe we could use the same material and make tamales, or yeah, tamales. No, they were making tamales. To make tacos and sell the tacos on the outside or in our little of influence around their village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would be like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they expanded their product line. So I was pretty happy about that. I was kind of like, that was a nice success."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They would do like food carts, street sellers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually they would take them in trucks and they'd go down to the different markets in those little areas. And they'd set up and sell them there. Or they would take them to the little cafes that they supported too. There were small cafes, little fronts of houses that were where people would go in and buy their tamales. They were good, too. They always fed me. Well, really the cool thing was we were way up in the mountains. And the four-wheel drives would not go all the way up. We had to stop and they'd come down and pick us up on horses. So I got to ride horses up into the mountains."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you an experienced rider?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.714436212728152, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I'm good on a horse. It was kind of, it was cool. And we also worked with an HIV AIDS NGO in Puerto Cortes that was supporting the local HIV community. And there were. There were some really sad cases there, but they had a sewing factory and they were sewing, uh, gym equipment, gym, gym suits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Athletic clothes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Athletic clothes for different high schools around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they weren't making any money. They had priced themselves so low they couldn't, they weren't making any money. So I did the SWOT thing and the four P's with them, and they decided, well, we're going to, we need to raise our prices a little bit. Also their equipment was starting to run down. So I ran into an American from North Carolina who had a sewing factory in Puerto Cortes, and he sent his mechanic over and overhauled a couple of their machines for us so they were running better. They couldn't afford to get them fixed and he did it for nothing. So, yeah, that worked out good. I had a good time there. But we only lasted, we lasted a little over a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you didn't complete two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.536341003368088, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they weren't making any money. They had priced themselves so low they couldn't, they weren't making any money. So I did the SWOT thing and the four P's with them, and they decided, well, we're going to, we need to raise our prices a little bit. Also their equipment was starting to run down. So I ran into an American from North Carolina who had a sewing factory in Puerto Cortes, and he sent his mechanic over and overhauled a couple of their machines for us so they were running better. They couldn't afford to get them fixed and he did it for nothing. So, yeah, that worked out good. I had a good time there. But we only lasted, we lasted a little over a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you didn't complete two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I did all I could because they took Peace Corps out. One of the girls, one of the ladies in Peace Corps, was on a bus and they robbed, some guys robbed it. It's a very dangerous country. Honduras is very dangerous. That's why they're coming up here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had a Old West shootout on the bus and she got shot in the leg. And after all, there were so many people getting robbed. There were Peace Corps volunteers getting robbed going from the little hotel that they put us up with in Tegucigalpa, the headquarters of Peace Corps. There were people getting assaulted just going up to the headquarters there from the hotels. So when that girl got shot, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and they pulled us all out. They closed it down and got us all over to a hotel on the coast. I can't remember the name of the town, but we were there. We closed out service and they put us on busses and flew us out of Tegucigalpa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow, that's too bad."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.484823337075653, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I did all I could because they took Peace Corps out. One of the girls, one of the ladies in Peace Corps, was on a bus and they robbed, some guys robbed it. It's a very dangerous country. Honduras is very dangerous. That's why they're coming up here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had a Old West shootout on the bus and she got shot in the leg. And after all, there were so many people getting robbed. There were Peace Corps volunteers getting robbed going from the little hotel that they put us up with in Tegucigalpa, the headquarters of Peace Corps. There were people getting assaulted just going up to the headquarters there from the hotels. So when that girl got shot, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and they pulled us all out. They closed it down and got us all over to a hotel on the coast. I can't remember the name of the town, but we were there. We closed out service and they put us on busses and flew us out of Tegucigalpa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow, that's too bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I really, I was sorry because I thought everything was going really good. And I was, I felt very safe. I was in this little town on the coast. And I never had any, any kind of problems. But anyway, I was lucky that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got to Honduras, they must have trained you in Spanish."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.538692596750726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had a Old West shootout on the bus and she got shot in the leg. And after all, there were so many people getting robbed. There were Peace Corps volunteers getting robbed going from the little hotel that they put us up with in Tegucigalpa, the headquarters of Peace Corps. There were people getting assaulted just going up to the headquarters there from the hotels. So when that girl got shot, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and they pulled us all out. They closed it down and got us all over to a hotel on the coast. I can't remember the name of the town, but we were there. We closed out service and they put us on busses and flew us out of Tegucigalpa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow, that's too bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I really, I was sorry because I thought everything was going really good. And I was, I felt very safe. I was in this little town on the coast. And I never had any, any kind of problems. But anyway, I was lucky that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got to Honduras, they must have trained you in Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had training there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.70965844083414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I really, I was sorry because I thought everything was going really good. And I was, I felt very safe. I was in this little town on the coast. And I never had any, any kind of problems. But anyway, I was lucky that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got to Honduras, they must have trained you in Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had training there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to take Spanish courses before. I was pretty good at Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Better than Russian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.010731600926821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had training there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to take Spanish courses before. I was pretty good at Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Better than Russian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Than I was in Russian, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went through the entire training. What was your training there in Honduras, three months?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.456368445474245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to take Spanish courses before. I was pretty good at Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Better than Russian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Than I was in Russian, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went through the entire training. What was your training there in Honduras, three months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, three months. I lived with the lady there. She was the widow of a doctor and she had a big house. And her, she had two kids. Two of her kids still lived with her and her mother lived with her. So it was a real nice setup. And then, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So here again, during training they housed you with a local family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.507076050526939, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Than I was in Russian, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you went through the entire training. What was your training there in Honduras, three months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, three months. I lived with the lady there. She was the widow of a doctor and she had a big house. And her, she had two kids. Two of her kids still lived with her and her mother lived with her. So it was a real nice setup. And then, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So here again, during training they housed you with a local family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then that was the first. I think that was the first month. And then the second month was up in the mountains at a town that made Flor de Caña rum. And you could smell the factory was there in the city. And it was a cool town. So and we were there for about four weeks. Then they moved us back to the original town that we were in. So we finished up there at the original city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What town did you live in while you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.56341783391882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, three months. I lived with the lady there. She was the widow of a doctor and she had a big house. And her, she had two kids. Two of her kids still lived with her and her mother lived with her. So it was a real nice setup. And then, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So here again, during training they housed you with a local family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then that was the first. I think that was the first month. And then the second month was up in the mountains at a town that made Flor de Caña rum. And you could smell the factory was there in the city. And it was a cool town. So and we were there for about four weeks. Then they moved us back to the original town that we were in. So we finished up there at the original city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What town did you live in while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little town called Omoa. O-M-O-A. It was on the Caribbean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's a small town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.737130926576466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then that was the first. I think that was the first month. And then the second month was up in the mountains at a town that made Flor de Caña rum. And you could smell the factory was there in the city. And it was a cool town. So and we were there for about four weeks. Then they moved us back to the original town that we were in. So we finished up there at the original city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What town did you live in while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little town called Omoa. O-M-O-A. It was on the Caribbean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's a small town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, probably 1,500 or 2,000. Small town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your living quarters like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.596812140640516, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little town called Omoa. O-M-O-A. It was on the Caribbean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's a small town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, probably 1,500 or 2,000. Small town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your living quarters like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a house. I lived with a family there for a while. And then I got a little house. It was a great family. She had run for mayor. Her name was, actually they were of Italian descent. There were a lot of Italian descendants in Honduras. And her name was Sylvia Sosa. And her daughter is, her name is Sylvia Sosa too. And she's a television commentator. She just got that job here in the last couple of years. And her dad's name was Paulo. And Paulo was a great guy. He died, but I built a house on my spare time in his front yard for, uh, built a place for a business, that he would lease out to a businessperson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you helped him out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.32979126737835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, probably 1,500 or 2,000. Small town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your living quarters like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a house. I lived with a family there for a while. And then I got a little house. It was a great family. She had run for mayor. Her name was, actually they were of Italian descent. There were a lot of Italian descendants in Honduras. And her name was Sylvia Sosa. And her daughter is, her name is Sylvia Sosa too. And she's a television commentator. She just got that job here in the last couple of years. And her dad's name was Paulo. And Paulo was a great guy. He died, but I built a house on my spare time in his front yard for, uh, built a place for a business, that he would lease out to a businessperson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you helped him out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I helped him out, yeah, because I got a background in, I can do a lot of different things. Carpentry is one of them. So yeah. So he and I built a house and, yeah, it took us about a month. I was there living with him for a month. And then I moved into the house and then, like I said, they shut us down, brought us home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's too bad. I'll ask you the same question here as about Ukraine. Do you think that you had some impact on their impression of Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.144212519309278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a house. I lived with a family there for a while. And then I got a little house. It was a great family. She had run for mayor. Her name was, actually they were of Italian descent. There were a lot of Italian descendants in Honduras. And her name was Sylvia Sosa. And her daughter is, her name is Sylvia Sosa too. And she's a television commentator. She just got that job here in the last couple of years. And her dad's name was Paulo. And Paulo was a great guy. He died, but I built a house on my spare time in his front yard for, uh, built a place for a business, that he would lease out to a businessperson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you helped him out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I helped him out, yeah, because I got a background in, I can do a lot of different things. Carpentry is one of them. So yeah. So he and I built a house and, yeah, it took us about a month. I was there living with him for a month. And then I moved into the house and then, like I said, they shut us down, brought us home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's too bad. I'll ask you the same question here as about Ukraine. Do you think that you had some impact on their impression of Americans?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I think, they're still."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they pretty favorable to begin with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.474336443591701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I think, they're still."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they pretty favorable to begin with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, actually, they were. The impression in Honduras was, where I was, was positive. And because we'd been down there, you know, the Contras and all that Sandinistas stuff. But yeah, they were positive. And we still stay in touch, so yeah. He liked my carpentry work, so a good impression."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were some guys, had a guy from Iran. There was a guy from Canada who had a tiki bar. Like I said, we were on the Caribbean. And I would go down there and have a drink every now and then with the other expats. A lot of expats hung out there and they were always sitting around talking about, man, this guy, these people are so blah, blah, blah, this is a terrible place, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, when are you guys going home? I ain't going home. So you like it a little bit better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We like it here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. They just liked to criticize."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.193707159546334, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, actually, they were. The impression in Honduras was, where I was, was positive. And because we'd been down there, you know, the Contras and all that Sandinistas stuff. But yeah, they were positive. And we still stay in touch, so yeah. He liked my carpentry work, so a good impression."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were some guys, had a guy from Iran. There was a guy from Canada who had a tiki bar. Like I said, we were on the Caribbean. And I would go down there and have a drink every now and then with the other expats. A lot of expats hung out there and they were always sitting around talking about, man, this guy, these people are so blah, blah, blah, this is a terrible place, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, when are you guys going home? I ain't going home. So you like it a little bit better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We like it here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. They just liked to criticize."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've made lasting relationships in all these places?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.993007955051483, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were some guys, had a guy from Iran. There was a guy from Canada who had a tiki bar. Like I said, we were on the Caribbean. And I would go down there and have a drink every now and then with the other expats. A lot of expats hung out there and they were always sitting around talking about, man, this guy, these people are so blah, blah, blah, this is a terrible place, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, when are you guys going home? I ain't going home. So you like it a little bit better? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We like it here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. They just liked to criticize."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've made lasting relationships in all these places?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still keep in touch?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.881119950057203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've made lasting relationships in all these places?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still keep in touch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's kind of, it must have been hard to leave in the middle of your service."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.867911055619114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still keep in touch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's kind of, it must have been hard to leave in the middle of your service."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really, yeah, I really. I never felt threatened. And I know there were people who were threatened, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that would have been some time in 2012 that you left there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.74212339513235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's kind of, it must have been hard to leave in the middle of your service."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really, yeah, I really. I never felt threatened. And I know there were people who were threatened, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that would have been some time in 2012 that you left there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I left there the first part of 2012, I think was end of January, 1st of February, or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Came back home to Texas?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.602359327924832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really, yeah, I really. I never felt threatened. And I know there were people who were threatened, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that would have been some time in 2012 that you left there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I left there the first part of 2012, I think was end of January, 1st of February, or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Came back home to Texas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back to Texas. That's when I went to Madagascar in, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so it was only about a year later you went to Madagascar?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.55817703102759, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I left there the first part of 2012, I think was end of January, 1st of February, or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Came back home to Texas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back to Texas. That's when I went to Madagascar in, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so it was only about a year later you went to Madagascar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you're ready for another?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.509085590030656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Came back to Texas. That's when I went to Madagascar in, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so it was only about a year later you went to Madagascar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you're ready for another?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ready for another one. It was half, you know, I only had a half tour in Honduras. I was ready for another one. Then I went to Madagascar. I wasn't there very long. I, uh, I didn't get through PST [pre- service training]. I learned Malagasy, which is their language. And then I was living with a family. It was probably the most austere place I've ever lived. There was no running water, there was no electricity. But the people were fantastic. The family I lived with, they were really, really great. And I went out with a farmer. We were, like I said, it was food security there. So I went out with a farmer one day and I tripped and fell and busted my knee. And it's a rough country. You can't, if you can't walk, you can't get around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can't get around."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.454539544478507, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you're ready for another?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ready for another one. It was half, you know, I only had a half tour in Honduras. I was ready for another one. Then I went to Madagascar. I wasn't there very long. I, uh, I didn't get through PST [pre- service training]. I learned Malagasy, which is their language. And then I was living with a family. It was probably the most austere place I've ever lived. There was no running water, there was no electricity. But the people were fantastic. The family I lived with, they were really, really great. And I went out with a farmer. We were, like I said, it was food security there. So I went out with a farmer one day and I tripped and fell and busted my knee. And it's a rough country. You can't, if you can't walk, you can't get around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can't get around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I got medevaced out of there, got my knee fixed. Knocked a big, the doctor said it was about the size, a piece of cartilage on my knee was about the size of a quarter that he got out there. And I tore my meniscus and I just had constant pain with it. So it was really constant pain flying back because it was like 36 hours on a plane with my knee being, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long were you there before that happened, a few months?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.393932827198341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ready for another one. It was half, you know, I only had a half tour in Honduras. I was ready for another one. Then I went to Madagascar. I wasn't there very long. I, uh, I didn't get through PST [pre- service training]. I learned Malagasy, which is their language. And then I was living with a family. It was probably the most austere place I've ever lived. There was no running water, there was no electricity. But the people were fantastic. The family I lived with, they were really, really great. And I went out with a farmer. We were, like I said, it was food security there. So I went out with a farmer one day and I tripped and fell and busted my knee. And it's a rough country. You can't, if you can't walk, you can't get around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can't get around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I got medevaced out of there, got my knee fixed. Knocked a big, the doctor said it was about the size, a piece of cartilage on my knee was about the size of a quarter that he got out there. And I tore my meniscus and I just had constant pain with it. So it was really constant pain flying back because it was like 36 hours on a plane with my knee being, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long were you there before that happened, a few months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there a couple of months, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Only a couple of months. Were you still in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.326592030220379, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I got medevaced out of there, got my knee fixed. Knocked a big, the doctor said it was about the size, a piece of cartilage on my knee was about the size of a quarter that he got out there. And I tore my meniscus and I just had constant pain with it. So it was really constant pain flying back because it was like 36 hours on a plane with my knee being, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long were you there before that happened, a few months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there a couple of months, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Only a couple of months. Were you still in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still in PST. And like I said, I was, after that I was, I thought, well, get my knee fixed. I got my knee fixed. It's good now. I still don't have any cartilage on my kneecap, but it just makes a grounding noise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you're resilient. So what? What's Peace Corps thinking all this time here? Now that was your fourth."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.362880033578199, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there a couple of months, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Only a couple of months. Were you still in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still in PST. And like I said, I was, after that I was, I thought, well, get my knee fixed. I got my knee fixed. It's good now. I still don't have any cartilage on my kneecap, but it just makes a grounding noise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you're resilient. So what? What's Peace Corps thinking all this time here? Now that was your fourth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never had any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you decided to do it again?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.51431114842022, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still in PST. And like I said, I was, after that I was, I thought, well, get my knee fixed. I got my knee fixed. It's good now. I still don't have any cartilage on my kneecap, but it just makes a grounding noise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you're resilient. So what? What's Peace Corps thinking all this time here? Now that was your fourth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never had any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you decided to do it again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never. Yeah. The next time was a Response."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Peace Corps Response."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.682567942689133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never had any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you decided to do it again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never. Yeah. The next time was a Response."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Peace Corps Response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went Response in Georgia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh OK, so that was a short term."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.98063104743237, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never. Yeah. The next time was a Response."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Peace Corps Response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went Response in Georgia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh OK, so that was a short term."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, short term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many months was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.790902527694284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, short term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many months was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was six, a little over six months. No PST."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pre-service training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No PST."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so with Peace Corps Response, do they do some kind of orientation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.323225030771427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was six, a little over six months. No PST."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pre-service training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No PST."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so with Peace Corps Response, do they do some kind of orientation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had a three-day orientation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just three days?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.287932136754849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had a three-day orientation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just three days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah, when I got there at the Peace Corps headquarters in Tbilisi, I had about a three day and then on Friday. So I got in on Monday. So I guess it was four days, and then we left on Friday and I went to Batumi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Batumi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Batumi. And I worked with a organization that was focusing on motivating youth to get involved in the democratic process. So that was my job. I worked with them. I came up with leadership training and citizenship training and communications training for the organization We Sit. And we brought in different, from different parts of town, we'd bring in groups of people and train them on all the different programs that I had developed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you developed those from scratch?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.15627516652164, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. She was very good, very smart. Yeah. And I also worked with the disabled, or one of the, one of my. I had three counterparts. One of them was, she worked with disabled people. So I had a background. So I worked with her some too. Then I lived with a family there the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I'm part of their family. I've gone back to see them a couple of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they're always asking me, when are you coming back? We wait you, we wait you. I'll be there. I'll come back again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the language there, were you were able to use some of your Russian again, did you remember anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.254660699409431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they're always asking me, when are you coming back? We wait you, we wait you. I'll be there. I'll come back again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the language there, were you were able to use some of your Russian again, did you remember anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they spoke. Yeah, I spoke a little Russian to them, but very little. And like I said, I'd forgotten most of it. Had gone through the, I'd gone through the Spanish, so I was better at Spanish. And but the lady I lived with, every morning she would fix my breakfast. One of my, I had another two counterparts, the one I worked, the real one. Then my secondary counterpart was the son of the lady that I lived with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had an English club and he also worked with democratic process in his area too. So I worked with him. And every morning she would come and she had fixed my breakfast and then she would always give me a small glass of Georgia wine. Everybody in Georgia makes great wine, so. And then she say, she's ask me how, in Georgian, how was my meal? And I'd say, what? I don't understand. And she'd say it a little bit louder. Then she'd say it a little bit louder, then she'd say a little bit louder. And finally we'd start laughing together. She knew I couldn't understand her and she couldn't get me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she didn't speak English?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.949622999343813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they spoke. Yeah, I spoke a little Russian to them, but very little. And like I said, I'd forgotten most of it. Had gone through the, I'd gone through the Spanish, so I was better at Spanish. And but the lady I lived with, every morning she would fix my breakfast. One of my, I had another two counterparts, the one I worked, the real one. Then my secondary counterpart was the son of the lady that I lived with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had an English club and he also worked with democratic process in his area too. So I worked with him. And every morning she would come and she had fixed my breakfast and then she would always give me a small glass of Georgia wine. Everybody in Georgia makes great wine, so. And then she say, she's ask me how, in Georgian, how was my meal? And I'd say, what? I don't understand. And she'd say it a little bit louder. Then she'd say it a little bit louder, then she'd say a little bit louder. And finally we'd start laughing together. She knew I couldn't understand her and she couldn't get me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she didn't speak English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No? Well, that must have made it tough."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.610692221493125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had an English club and he also worked with democratic process in his area too. So I worked with him. And every morning she would come and she had fixed my breakfast and then she would always give me a small glass of Georgia wine. Everybody in Georgia makes great wine, so. And then she say, she's ask me how, in Georgian, how was my meal? And I'd say, what? I don't understand. And she'd say it a little bit louder. Then she'd say it a little bit louder, then she'd say a little bit louder. And finally we'd start laughing together. She knew I couldn't understand her and she couldn't get me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she didn't speak English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No? Well, that must have made it tough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was great. No, we got along great. She was really a hoot. She was a funny lady. But she always did that every morning. She had, a little bit louder. A little bit louder. And then we'd start laughing together. Good cook. She was great. Yeah. And yeah, that was, I had a lot of fun there. It was right on the beach, right on the Black Sea. It was a tourist city. And the guy, one of the guys I became friends with was, uh, his name was Jim Bouley. I'm still part of his family too. So he was the, uh, he set up the performers that came to town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like a promoter?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.099620026534723, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was great. No, we got along great. She was really a hoot. She was a funny lady. But she always did that every morning. She had, a little bit louder. A little bit louder. And then we'd start laughing together. Good cook. She was great. Yeah. And yeah, that was, I had a lot of fun there. It was right on the beach, right on the Black Sea. It was a tourist city. And the guy, one of the guys I became friends with was, uh, his name was Jim Bouley. I'm still part of his family too. So he was the, uh, he set up the performers that came to town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like a promoter?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he worked for the city. They would set up like a concert. He would set up all the concerts in. And they brought in a lot of interesting people. One of them was really cool. He brought in this one group of Black dancers from Houston, and they were, they did rap and they also did African dancing. And so I went to all of them free. He said, come on, let's go. Come on, come on, and we'll go down. So he took me down to introduce me to these guys. And they were, so I knew a friend of mine. His daughter was an, danced in the African scene, in the African American scene in Houston, and her name was Rachel Eckeroff. And I asked them if they knew Rachel. And they said, yeah, yeah, we've danced with her. So it's a small world, man. I mean, the world is just, you know, you never know. You never know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, uh, it was very interesting. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you stayed there six months?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.555133362816358, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he worked for the city. They would set up like a concert. He would set up all the concerts in. And they brought in a lot of interesting people. One of them was really cool. He brought in this one group of Black dancers from Houston, and they were, they did rap and they also did African dancing. And so I went to all of them free. He said, come on, let's go. Come on, come on, and we'll go down. So he took me down to introduce me to these guys. And they were, so I knew a friend of mine. His daughter was an, danced in the African scene, in the African American scene in Houston, and her name was Rachel Eckeroff. And I asked them if they knew Rachel. And they said, yeah, yeah, we've danced with her. So it's a small world, man. I mean, the world is just, you know, you never know. You never know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, uh, it was very interesting. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you stayed there six months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And made some lasting friendships there. You're a friendly guy. And then you went to Armenia after that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.172370403129285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, uh, it was very interesting. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you stayed there six months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And made some lasting friendships there. You're a friendly guy. And then you went to Armenia after that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again, Peace Corps Response?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.743667164357138, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again, Peace Corps Response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. Full two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We went in August of 2015 and we came back in September of 2017."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And so tell me something about that. What was your training like there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.342733065625877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So and she was a sweet, great lady. She had two little kids. Well, she had three kids. She had a boy that was 15, and she had a little girl that was four or five. And then a little boy that was two and a half, three years old. He was a wild man. That's why I named him Tsunami."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They got a big kick out of it. And then the little girl, her name was Clautev, and she was, she loved to dance. She would just dance around all the time. And so, yeah, we all got along great. Her husband made, Ciroch, he made vodka. And there were, let's see, there was Nvard and Avard, her mother in law, and Goggek, the grandfather, Ciroch, Davit, and little Goggek. That was a two and a half year old kid and then Tatev. Plus me, and one bathroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. So I was being, luckily I was an early riser so I'd get up real early so I got to take care of my hygienic needs before everybody else woke up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you got to stand in line, huh?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.269703406250974, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They got a big kick out of it. And then the little girl, her name was Clautev, and she was, she loved to dance. She would just dance around all the time. And so, yeah, we all got along great. Her husband made, Ciroch, he made vodka. And there were, let's see, there was Nvard and Avard, her mother in law, and Goggek, the grandfather, Ciroch, Davit, and little Goggek. That was a two and a half year old kid and then Tatev. Plus me, and one bathroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. So I was being, luckily I was an early riser so I'd get up real early so I got to take care of my hygienic needs before everybody else woke up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you got to stand in line, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was during training that you lived with this family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.299670451389972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. So I was being, luckily I was an early riser so I'd get up real early so I got to take care of my hygienic needs before everybody else woke up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you got to stand in line, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was during training that you lived with this family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what town was, that was in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.332967168211079, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was during training that you lived with this family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what town was, that was in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Azadaban."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Azadaban. And then language there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.481074631345642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what town was, that was in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Azadaban."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Azadaban. And then language there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had to learn Armenian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.645638479272936, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Azadaban."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Azadaban. And then language there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had to learn Armenian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Armenian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it pretty intensive, three months' training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.939598310303262, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had to learn Armenian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Armenian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it pretty intensive, three months' training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, I got, I got, I passed so I had survival language. You know, I never said I was. I could get where I was going and order food and find out where the bathroom was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in all these places, it was pretty common to find people who spoke English that could help you out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.177775459949604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I left Azadaban, I went to, uh. I've been living under a great star that gives me great places to go. Like I said, I was in Kyiv. I was in Pokhara and Nepal and I was in Kyiv in Ukraine and I was in this little town Omoa, right on the beach in Honduras. Madagascar was another story, but I was up in the mountains without water or electricity. But it was great. And it was super anyway. And in Georgia, I was on, like I said, in Batumi, right in a tourist town. City. And then in Armenia, I was in a town called Dilijan, D-I-L-I-J-A-N. It was called the Swiss city of Armenia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Up in the mountains, about a little over 5,000 feet. It was really a pretty little town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were trying to turn it into the tourist center of Armenia. Not just a tourist center, they had already moved the Ukrainian [Armenian] bank there. So it was the economic center. They had brought in the UWC, the Universal World College, which is a prep school. There's about 15 of them around the world, backed by some billionaires. It was their beautiful college, beautiful campus, brand new, brand new campus. And then they were trying to make Dilijan the tourist center of Armenia. We worked on a lot of projects, but most of my success there was on secondary projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So even though this was a pretty well-developed place with a lot of resources, they still felt they had a need for Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.884465651508375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They still do, yeah, economically. They are high unemployment. They need economic development for sure. They need economic development. Well-educated people, lots of potential. There in between Turkey, Azerbaijan. North of Iran and south of Georgia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Landlocked. No resources to speak of, but highly intelligent, well-educated people. Everybody speaks at least two languages, mostly three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They speak Russian, Armenian, and either English, German, or French. And some of them speak all of them. I worked with a woman that spoke all three and fluently, and she had worked with the United Nations. So they do need economic development. But it was a great, it was a great tour. In fact, I met some really great people in the Peace Corps there too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there quite a few volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.76051739056486, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Landlocked. No resources to speak of, but highly intelligent, well-educated people. Everybody speaks at least two languages, mostly three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They speak Russian, Armenian, and either English, German, or French. And some of them speak all of them. I worked with a woman that spoke all three and fluently, and she had worked with the United Nations. So they do need economic development. But it was a great, it was a great tour. In fact, I met some really great people in the Peace Corps there too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there quite a few volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had 42 in our group, 42 every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some in that same city that you were in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.733908211738735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They speak Russian, Armenian, and either English, German, or French. And some of them speak all of them. I worked with a woman that spoke all three and fluently, and she had worked with the United Nations. So they do need economic development. But it was a great, it was a great tour. In fact, I met some really great people in the Peace Corps there too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there quite a few volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had 42 in our group, 42 every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some in that same city that you were in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was. At the end, there were two besides me there. It's like 10,000 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you lived in an apartment there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.815453568598594, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had 42 in our group, 42 every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some in that same city that you were in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was. At the end, there were two besides me there. It's like 10,000 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you lived in an apartment there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived with a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you lived with the family? For the entire two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.906059520665105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there was. At the end, there were two besides me there. It's like 10,000 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you lived in an apartment there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived with a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you lived with the family? For the entire two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the whole time, that was more recently. I lived with Zoya and Goggek and they, she was great. She, you know, I gave her a little extra money. She washed my clothes. She had my breakfast ready every morning. She was a pretty funny lady. Great cook. And she was a nurse. She was also a great maker of vodka. So everybody in the neighborhood came to drink her vodka."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So drinking vodka was a pretty common thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.117843911850116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived with a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you lived with the family? For the entire two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the whole time, that was more recently. I lived with Zoya and Goggek and they, she was great. She, you know, I gave her a little extra money. She washed my clothes. She had my breakfast ready every morning. She was a pretty funny lady. Great cook. And she was a nurse. She was also a great maker of vodka. So everybody in the neighborhood came to drink her vodka."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So drinking vodka was a pretty common thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All through Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia. Vodka is part of the lifestyle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you acquired a taste for vodka?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.353159902055683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the whole time, that was more recently. I lived with Zoya and Goggek and they, she was great. She, you know, I gave her a little extra money. She washed my clothes. She had my breakfast ready every morning. She was a pretty funny lady. Great cook. And she was a nurse. She was also a great maker of vodka. So everybody in the neighborhood came to drink her vodka."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So drinking vodka was a pretty common thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All through Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia. Vodka is part of the lifestyle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you acquired a taste for vodka?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, you better get it. Now, they did make, Armenia does. Actually, this is a little interesting aside. Winston Churchill's favorite cognac, or not cognac, brandy, was Armenian brandy. And he preferred it over other brandies, and not that he wouldn't drink other brandies, but, you know, he was pretty good at drinking. But yeah, his favorite was Armenian brandy. And it's good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were in community development there as well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.725733224506314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All through Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia. Vodka is part of the lifestyle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you acquired a taste for vodka?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, you better get it. Now, they did make, Armenia does. Actually, this is a little interesting aside. Winston Churchill's favorite cognac, or not cognac, brandy, was Armenian brandy. And he preferred it over other brandies, and not that he wouldn't drink other brandies, but, you know, he was pretty good at drinking. But yeah, his favorite was Armenian brandy. And it's good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were in community development there as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And tell me about your job and what you did and who you worked with."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.3647255374139, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was fun. He is a great guy. Yeah. I still stay in touch with all the people over there. And also interesting, a little aside here. At the community center, they were interested in hooking up with a university in the United States for a cross-cultural training of their people, the students there in Dilijan. I happened to know some people in Huntsville, Texas, at Sam Houston State University, and I knew the Secretary to the President and several other people who are professors there. And I'd met them, they were part of the Democratic Club, so we were the small blue dot in the middle of this big red dot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, so I called Judy Tilly and asked her if she could connect us with somebody there at the university. So a funny thing happened. We connected with the education department who already had done some stuff in China at the same cross-cultural training. The dean of the School of Education, his assistant dean, was a Armenian who had migrated to the United States and worked there. So it turned out great. They still got it going."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great, great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They're still going there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there's some lasting impact."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.849695041571, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, so I called Judy Tilly and asked her if she could connect us with somebody there at the university. So a funny thing happened. We connected with the education department who already had done some stuff in China at the same cross-cultural training. The dean of the School of Education, his assistant dean, was a Armenian who had migrated to the United States and worked there. So it turned out great. They still got it going."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great, great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They're still going there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there's some lasting impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Believe me, I was just. I was just the middle guy that got him in touch with. I didn't have much to do with setting up the operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still, it wouldn't have happened otherwise."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.38855004619, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They're still going there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there's some lasting impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Believe me, I was just. I was just the middle guy that got him in touch with. I didn't have much to do with setting up the operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still, it wouldn't have happened otherwise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, yeah, it turned out good. Yeah. And I think I have all the people over there. I think I've had a good impact on them. They liked me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.9872778291, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Believe me, I was just. I was just the middle guy that got him in touch with. I didn't have much to do with setting up the operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still, it wouldn't have happened otherwise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, yeah, it turned out good. Yeah. And I think I have all the people over there. I think I've had a good impact on them. They liked me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they like Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are they generally favorable towards Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.81145411, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they like Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are they generally favorable towards Americans?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, very much so. Yeah. They also like the Russians, not as much as they like the Americans, but you know, they still have, they're dependent on Russians. All the business left. Like I said, there's, they have no natural resources, very little industry there. All the industry left when the Soviet Union fell. All the chemical plants in Vanadzor, which is a town about 40 kilometers from where I lived, all the plant after plant after plant's vacant. There's nothing there. They had thousands of employees in those chemical plants, and they sold those chemicals around the rest of the Soviet Union."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a closed economy. You know, if you made it here, you had to buy it there, you know. And the same thing in Dilijan. They had like an electronic plant that employed 3,000 people, open, going 24 hours a day. It's gone. It's a town of 10,000 people. 3,000 jobs were gone. And they're not going, they're not coming back. That's why we were trying to make it, turn it into the tourism sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are other industries."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1238379000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, very much so. Yeah. They also like the Russians, not as much as they like the Americans, but you know, they still have, they're dependent on Russians. All the business left. Like I said, there's, they have no natural resources, very little industry there. All the industry left when the Soviet Union fell. All the chemical plants in Vanadzor, which is a town about 40 kilometers from where I lived, all the plant after plant after plant's vacant. There's nothing there. They had thousands of employees in those chemical plants, and they sold those chemicals around the rest of the Soviet Union."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a closed economy. You know, if you made it here, you had to buy it there, you know. And the same thing in Dilijan. They had like an electronic plant that employed 3,000 people, open, going 24 hours a day. It's gone. It's a town of 10,000 people. 3,000 jobs were gone. And they're not going, they're not coming back. That's why we were trying to make it, turn it into the tourism sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are other industries."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had put some people to work in. But most of the people who had gone to work for the bank that had moved there came from the capital city, Yerevan. So it didn't really impact the local populace. It was more of an import of the people and they built the, they built apartments for the employees. So it didn't really impact the living conditions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't help them out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:365", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.470931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a closed economy. You know, if you made it here, you had to buy it there, you know. And the same thing in Dilijan. They had like an electronic plant that employed 3,000 people, open, going 24 hours a day. It's gone. It's a town of 10,000 people. 3,000 jobs were gone. And they're not going, they're not coming back. That's why we were trying to make it, turn it into the tourism sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are other industries."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had put some people to work in. But most of the people who had gone to work for the bank that had moved there came from the capital city, Yerevan. So it didn't really impact the local populace. It was more of an import of the people and they built the, they built apartments for the employees. So it didn't really impact the living conditions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't help them out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that much. Anyway, we were working on trying to get it going and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that wasn't too long ago. Do you think, do you get feedback from them now? Are things still going?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:367", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.85659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they had put some people to work in. But most of the people who had gone to work for the bank that had moved there came from the capital city, Yerevan. So it didn't really impact the local populace. It was more of an import of the people and they built the, they built apartments for the employees. So it didn't really impact the living conditions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't help them out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that much. Anyway, we were working on trying to get it going and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that wasn't too long ago. Do you think, do you get feedback from them now? Are things still going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I hear from them all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The tourism industry is developing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.2851, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that much. Anyway, we were working on trying to get it going and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that wasn't too long ago. Do you think, do you get feedback from them now? Are things still going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I hear from them all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The tourism industry is developing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eh, not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not that great?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then when I left, it was a sad day. I hate to see them, hate to say goodbye, but it was time to go. Yeah, I was glad to see my kids. I was lucky. Harvey, the hurricane that hit Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "International airport had been closed. I flew out. I flew in on September the first. They'd just opened the airport. I was lucky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was open when I flew in, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you know, usually I interview people who have done one assignment and, you know, you ask about how Peace Corps has affected the rest of their life. But with you, Peace Corps has been kind of a lasting thing for the past, you know, 20, 20 some odd years, huh?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was open when I flew in, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you know, usually I interview people who have done one assignment and, you know, you ask about how Peace Corps has affected the rest of their life. But with you, Peace Corps has been kind of a lasting thing for the past, you know, 20, 20 some odd years, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, that's always, it's always in the back of my mind. Right now, I'm working with Americorps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "VISTA later, and my tour is up at the end of this month. So I still got that. I still like to do a little bit of volunteering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a volunteer position though?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, that's always, it's always in the back of my mind. Right now, I'm working with Americorps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "VISTA later, and my tour is up at the end of this month. So I still got that. I still like to do a little bit of volunteering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a volunteer position though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if it hadn't been for that first experience, the first Peace Corps experience in Nepal, do you think these other volunteer experiences may not have happened or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "VISTA later, and my tour is up at the end of this month. So I still got that. I still like to do a little bit of volunteering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a volunteer position though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if it hadn't been for that first experience, the first Peace Corps experience in Nepal, do you think these other volunteer experiences may not have happened or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no, like I said it, it was cut short. I think the most important thing that keeps my interest is the fact that John Kennedy had a vision about the Peace Corps and that, like I said, I'd been in the Air Force, which was, you know, I was young and I was a warrior. And then when I got older, I got to thinking, you know, maybe it's not all about being a warrior. Maybe it's about spreading a little bit of good news. And so I think John Kennedy was the catalyst that has kept me going really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All those years ago."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if it hadn't been for that first experience, the first Peace Corps experience in Nepal, do you think these other volunteer experiences may not have happened or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no, like I said it, it was cut short. I think the most important thing that keeps my interest is the fact that John Kennedy had a vision about the Peace Corps and that, like I said, I'd been in the Air Force, which was, you know, I was young and I was a warrior. And then when I got older, I got to thinking, you know, maybe it's not all about being a warrior. Maybe it's about spreading a little bit of good news. And so I think John Kennedy was the catalyst that has kept me going really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All those years ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think so. He was a visionary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, great. Any last words before we sum it up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00115:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think so. He was a visionary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, great. Any last words before we sum it up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've had a great time, yeah. It's been great. I have very few regrets about my Peace Corps services, except a couple of times when I fell and hurt my knee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, yeah. But no, it's been good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, great. Yeah. You've had a lot of great experiences, Charlie. Well, thanks very much. And that concludes our interview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.05972193532568, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. It did. I was up on the tower on top of one of the assembly buildings and could see one, it looked like it was headed my way, but it went into the desert floor out in front of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. Quite a sight.\\n\\n While you were working at the weapons lab, had you been following the space program and the early flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I sat in a parking lot and listened to John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight in Washington, D.C. I had had to go to town for something that day. And I sat in the parking lot, blew off whatever it was I was in town for, and listened to his whole flight. It was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think at that time about the possibility of being involved with the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I was very much involved with what was going on there. It hadn't become repetitious yet, so it never crossed my mind at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just until you got the call."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.8441354836952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I sat in a parking lot and listened to John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight in Washington, D.C. I had had to go to town for something that day. And I sat in the parking lot, blew off whatever it was I was in town for, and listened to his whole flight. It was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think at that time about the possibility of being involved with the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I was very much involved with what was going on there. It hadn't become repetitious yet, so it never crossed my mind at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just until you got the call."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you had worked at White Sands, then you came back here to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 19.82681720410578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I was very much involved with what was going on there. It hadn't become repetitious yet, so it never crossed my mind at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just until you got the call."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you had worked at White Sands, then you came back here to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were in Houston here the whole time and we traveled to White Sands to do those launches. But they were in addition to what we were doing here, which was primarily getting ready to do the lunar landing mission. And the principal job was getting the computing requirements defined for the control center here at Houston and getting ourselves trained to work in the control center and participating in the functional design of the guidance and control system of the Apollo spacecraft and the lunar module about what they were going to have to do and the ground would interface with those. That really was a training kind of process for what turned out later to be the mission techniques, which, when we started, didn't exist. There was no such thing as the mission techniques process. It was a lot of people on their own initiative trying to put all that together and get it documented."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall what some of the stages were as you were training, as you were looking at these systems and beginning to put these techniques together? Did you get together and have classroom sessions or training sessions or just strategy sessions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.033405279844203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The flight dynamics people were really kind of the pivotal point between all of it, because all of the systems-oriented engineers had to support the trajectory, which was to get to the Moon, and the radar tracking systems and the ground computing maneuver computations and all that. That was the pivotal business. They called us the \"Trench,\" by the way, if you ever run across that, because we had the front row of the consoles in the control center. So everybody was above us. But, of course, we considered ourselves the pick of the crop, you know. [Laughter] We thought we had the hardest job of all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very important one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After I became a flight director, I realized that that was not true. [Laughter] But it worked while we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we've run across a few references to the Trench, and it seems like everybody had a pretty good feeling about themselves and the camaraderie down there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a few stories surrounding—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.03711697760467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After I became a flight director, I realized that that was not true. [Laughter] But it worked while we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we've run across a few references to the Trench, and it seems like everybody had a pretty good feeling about themselves and the camaraderie down there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a few stories surrounding—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess we were probably the largest sub-team in the control center, because we had the retrofire officer and the guidance officer and the flight dynamics officer. Yes, we were the largest sub-team in the control center. Not the largest team—I'm sorry, in the mission operations room, but in the control center, the systems guys had the larger teams. The complexity of their job was tough, they needed lots of books, which I learned as a part of my flight director training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that when you first came down, or when your friend first called you, that you didn't even know what a flight dynamics officer was, and here you came down and were one of the people most experienced with this type of work. What, if you could define for us, what a flight dynamics officer was meant to do for Apollo."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.152352197338523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a few stories surrounding—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess we were probably the largest sub-team in the control center, because we had the retrofire officer and the guidance officer and the flight dynamics officer. Yes, we were the largest sub-team in the control center. Not the largest team—I'm sorry, in the mission operations room, but in the control center, the systems guys had the larger teams. The complexity of their job was tough, they needed lots of books, which I learned as a part of my flight director training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that when you first came down, or when your friend first called you, that you didn't even know what a flight dynamics officer was, and here you came down and were one of the people most experienced with this type of work. What, if you could define for us, what a flight dynamics officer was meant to do for Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No one has done that for you [before]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we've had a couple, but we haven't talked to many, so—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.391502441487248, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess we were probably the largest sub-team in the control center, because we had the retrofire officer and the guidance officer and the flight dynamics officer. Yes, we were the largest sub-team in the control center. Not the largest team—I'm sorry, in the mission operations room, but in the control center, the systems guys had the larger teams. The complexity of their job was tough, they needed lots of books, which I learned as a part of my flight director training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that when you first came down, or when your friend first called you, that you didn't even know what a flight dynamics officer was, and here you came down and were one of the people most experienced with this type of work. What, if you could define for us, what a flight dynamics officer was meant to do for Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No one has done that for you [before]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we've had a couple, but we haven't talked to many, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the flight dynamics officer is predominantly responsible for the management of the trajectory. That means he's got to determine what the trajectory is, which is a position and velocity at a time—a position, velocity, time relationship, and that allows you to tell where you are and where you're going to be, a trajectory is predictable and projectable. The flight dynamics officer also is the leader of the Trench. The guidance officer manages the guidance system and monitors it and loads it for the maneuvers, and the RETRO [retrofire] officer is continually figuring out how you're going to get home from where you are. Both of them are dependent upon the job the flight dynamics officer's doing in terms of trajectory management, what it is now and what it's going to be reflected by the maneuvers that are being planned. Is that concise enough?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a great definition."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.768336046096941, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No one has done that for you [before]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we've had a couple, but we haven't talked to many, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the flight dynamics officer is predominantly responsible for the management of the trajectory. That means he's got to determine what the trajectory is, which is a position and velocity at a time—a position, velocity, time relationship, and that allows you to tell where you are and where you're going to be, a trajectory is predictable and projectable. The flight dynamics officer also is the leader of the Trench. The guidance officer manages the guidance system and monitors it and loads it for the maneuvers, and the RETRO [retrofire] officer is continually figuring out how you're going to get home from where you are. Both of them are dependent upon the job the flight dynamics officer's doing in terms of trajectory management, what it is now and what it's going to be reflected by the maneuvers that are being planned. Is that concise enough?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a great definition."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One thing that's interesting to look at is the fact that the computers that you used to help you in these computations and the trajectory and so forth don't measure up to a desktop computer nowadays."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.298151162329933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the flight dynamics officer is predominantly responsible for the management of the trajectory. That means he's got to determine what the trajectory is, which is a position and velocity at a time—a position, velocity, time relationship, and that allows you to tell where you are and where you're going to be, a trajectory is predictable and projectable. The flight dynamics officer also is the leader of the Trench. The guidance officer manages the guidance system and monitors it and loads it for the maneuvers, and the RETRO [retrofire] officer is continually figuring out how you're going to get home from where you are. Both of them are dependent upon the job the flight dynamics officer's doing in terms of trajectory management, what it is now and what it's going to be reflected by the maneuvers that are being planned. Is that concise enough?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a great definition."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One thing that's interesting to look at is the fact that the computers that you used to help you in these computations and the trajectory and so forth don't measure up to a desktop computer nowadays."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that's very true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did a lot with slide rules and such?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.331050817691276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that's very true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did a lot with slide rules and such?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But we did have Olivettis that we did a lot of work with, which was an early kind of a precursor to the PCs. It was a desktop computer that you could program and had a little magnetic card that you wrote the programs on, and if you built enough cards and did them right, you could do a reentry trajectory with an Olivetti, which was pretty fascinating.\\n\\n But I remember very well when the PC thing started. We had guys walking around talking about these things called microprocessors. I didn't have time to figure out what those were, but I kept hearing them get all excited about it, some of the nerdy kind of guys. [Laughter] But later I understood what they were; that was the precursor to these PCs. The guys that liked those liked it because they didn't have an operating system. I mean, they interfaced with them with switches and machine language kind of stuff. It was not a nice interface thing like [Microsoft] Windows or the operating system for Apple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different at the time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.590056464101417, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But we did have Olivettis that we did a lot of work with, which was an early kind of a precursor to the PCs. It was a desktop computer that you could program and had a little magnetic card that you wrote the programs on, and if you built enough cards and did them right, you could do a reentry trajectory with an Olivetti, which was pretty fascinating.\\n\\n But I remember very well when the PC thing started. We had guys walking around talking about these things called microprocessors. I didn't have time to figure out what those were, but I kept hearing them get all excited about it, some of the nerdy kind of guys. [Laughter] But later I understood what they were; that was the precursor to these PCs. The guys that liked those liked it because they didn't have an operating system. I mean, they interfaced with them with switches and machine language kind of stuff. It was not a nice interface thing like [Microsoft] Windows or the operating system for Apple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The Naval Ordnance Research Calculator [NORC] was one of the first major electronic calculating devices, and that was the computer that existed at the Naval Weapons Laboratory and it was used for all of the analysis we did there. That was a vacuum tube system [as opposed to transistors], and each vacuum tube tray was about the size of a PC now, or certainly at least a laptop. There was this room, which all the walls were full of these trays of vacuum tubes, and the operators sat at a console that looked a whole lot like out [of] Star Trek... But the total interface with that was punch cards, [we] loaded program[s] and loaded data with punch cards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different than today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.988951626779352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But we did have Olivettis that we did a lot of work with, which was an early kind of a precursor to the PCs. It was a desktop computer that you could program and had a little magnetic card that you wrote the programs on, and if you built enough cards and did them right, you could do a reentry trajectory with an Olivetti, which was pretty fascinating.\\n\\n But I remember very well when the PC thing started. We had guys walking around talking about these things called microprocessors. I didn't have time to figure out what those were, but I kept hearing them get all excited about it, some of the nerdy kind of guys. [Laughter] But later I understood what they were; that was the precursor to these PCs. The guys that liked those liked it because they didn't have an operating system. I mean, they interfaced with them with switches and machine language kind of stuff. It was not a nice interface thing like [Microsoft] Windows or the operating system for Apple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The Naval Ordnance Research Calculator [NORC] was one of the first major electronic calculating devices, and that was the computer that existed at the Naval Weapons Laboratory and it was used for all of the analysis we did there. That was a vacuum tube system [as opposed to transistors], and each vacuum tube tray was about the size of a PC now, or certainly at least a laptop. There was this room, which all the walls were full of these trays of vacuum tubes, and the operators sat at a console that looked a whole lot like out [of] Star Trek... But the total interface with that was punch cards, [we] loaded program[s] and loaded data with punch cards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different than today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were able to make it work and help do what you needed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.54327958531039, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The Naval Ordnance Research Calculator [NORC] was one of the first major electronic calculating devices, and that was the computer that existed at the Naval Weapons Laboratory and it was used for all of the analysis we did there. That was a vacuum tube system [as opposed to transistors], and each vacuum tube tray was about the size of a PC now, or certainly at least a laptop. There was this room, which all the walls were full of these trays of vacuum tubes, and the operators sat at a console that looked a whole lot like out [of] Star Trek... But the total interface with that was punch cards, [we] loaded program[s] and loaded data with punch cards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different than today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were able to make it work and help do what you needed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was nice to start at all of these almost first-of-a-kind things, too, because it wasn't such a culture shock to walk in and try to be competent with something that was extremely complex, one of the problems with that being that there's an awful lot of assumptions that people make about where you come from when they design these very complex things. You can't just pick up a PC and use it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, not that easy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.27031065034488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were able to make it work and help do what you needed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was nice to start at all of these almost first-of-a-kind things, too, because it wasn't such a culture shock to walk in and try to be competent with something that was extremely complex, one of the problems with that being that there's an awful lot of assumptions that people make about where you come from when they design these very complex things. You can't just pick up a PC and use it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, not that easy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. You've got to find the path."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. As you continued to work on the program and you began to find that path and you built up the skills and techniques and programs necessary to make Apollo happen, along the way were there any major stepping points or challenges that were hard to overcome, or did it all flow pretty smoothly in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.515522109341187, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, plus the NASA management, the program office management, knew that to charter it out of the program office would give it the clout that it needed to operate with everybody. The program office relationship is, they got the money, and so they're the money management, or the business management, of the program. So if you wanted to get some money to do something, you had to go through the program office. So this kind of an integrating function was a natural to come out of the program office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An example of some of the good leadership throughout."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. Well, and it all did come together, and Gemini eventually came to a successful conclusion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although they didn't have the mission techniques or the data priority for Gemini. The Apollo was the first one. To provide a segue for later, Bill Tindall got his revenge for my resistance, too, because when it was time for him to go on, he insisted that I was to replace him as the chair of that, which I did do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, at least you had learned from him and been through it with him, so you were able to build on that. That's good.\\n\\n Talking about Bill Tindall, unfortunately we won't have a chance to talk with him for this project, but can you tell us a little bit about him and maybe some of the other people you were working with at the time, too, that were influential, or that made an impact on you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.55627505133593, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there's some interesting people. All these guys, they were the giants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They certainly were. When did you begin running simulations for the missions for Apollo, and was it during this time when you were building up all these techniques?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We began running simulations before it was possible to run simulations. There were simulations where we ran against a computer model of a crew, and then there were simulations that we ran with crews, and we could hardly wait to get to where we could run simulations with real crews. But we didn't have simulators here, and we didn't have a control center here, but we wanted to do it anyway. It turns out there was a facility called the ME-101, which was a spacecraft simulator in Downey, California, at the Rockwell plant there. It was hooked up to computers out there. So we developed a communication system between that facility and a computer here.\\n\\n We set it up so that the trajectory data out of the ME-101 in California would print out vectors, you know, position, velocity and time, on a computer here and we would manually load those into another computer and compute rendezvous maneuvers and then read them back to the crew on a telephone and then they would do them. So we were running integrated sims really early to do that, long before we had sims that resembled anything like we would run after we had a control center. So, still building the control center, getting ready to do Gemini stuff here, and we were running [Apollo] simulations with real crews and that simulator in California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Figured out a way to make it all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were really anxious to get on with it. We knew that was going to be fun. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Always good to do the fun stuff."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.17363894592881, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We began running simulations before it was possible to run simulations. There were simulations where we ran against a computer model of a crew, and then there were simulations that we ran with crews, and we could hardly wait to get to where we could run simulations with real crews. But we didn't have simulators here, and we didn't have a control center here, but we wanted to do it anyway. It turns out there was a facility called the ME-101, which was a spacecraft simulator in Downey, California, at the Rockwell plant there. It was hooked up to computers out there. So we developed a communication system between that facility and a computer here.\\n\\n We set it up so that the trajectory data out of the ME-101 in California would print out vectors, you know, position, velocity and time, on a computer here and we would manually load those into another computer and compute rendezvous maneuvers and then read them back to the crew on a telephone and then they would do them. So we were running integrated sims really early to do that, long before we had sims that resembled anything like we would run after we had a control center. So, still building the control center, getting ready to do Gemini stuff here, and we were running [Apollo] simulations with real crews and that simulator in California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Figured out a way to make it all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were really anxious to get on with it. We knew that was going to be fun. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Always good to do the fun stuff."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Always. While they were building the control system and putting the whole space center together, where were you based out of, do you recall? Scattered throughout Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.778654246815927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean what building?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. We spent the first probably four months in the second story of the Stahl & Myers warehouse building, where Oshman's is now, on the freeway. No windows, not very good air-conditioning. The control center was one of the early buildings that they built here, and when that was ready, we came out before it was done and moved in. So our offices were basically next door. They were in the same building as the control center in the Building 30.\\n\\n For long time we moved around a lot. We ended up over in the second tallest building, it's Building 47, which is a six- or seven-story building over there. We moved out of the control center and over there when we finally got too large for the room we had.\\n\\n I don't know where those guys sit anymore. I haven't known for a long time. But it was really kind of interesting, because we'd get up from our desk and then in a few steps be in the control center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's convenient."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Plus we kept a lot of data in our office area, because it was going to be convenient. We had to carry it all over there. That was very much worthwhile, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly. As part of all this building up for Apollo, were you involved with any of the details of the construction of the control center, or just more with the computers?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.22056079853818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Plus we kept a lot of data in our office area, because it was going to be convenient. We had to carry it all over there. That was very much worthwhile, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly. As part of all this building up for Apollo, were you involved with any of the details of the construction of the control center, or just more with the computers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Our job was—you know, they had these big projection TVs and those kinds of things at the front. Our business was deciding and recommending what was going to be on those. The little TVs that had all the data, we were deciding, recommending, what was going to be on those, the configuration of the communications panels and who we would need voice loops to and from. In the case of the flight dynamics officer and the booster systems engineer who was on the end or far left, we had always had abort command switches on the console.\\n\\n So getting those configured and the same for everybody, it was that level of stuff in the control center itself, but the basic design of the control center, it was probably under way before we had people at my level to think about that. Lyn [Lynwood C.] Dunseith and Jim [James C.] Stokes [Jr.] were probably the big pushes for that, which are also guys that I respected and admired very much. They did just an outstanding job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly able to put together a good center and make it all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did. You know, their private contractor for that job was Philco, Philco Ford, and guys like John [W.] Hatcher, who also is not with us anymore, was integral. John's a guy, slight, not very tall, dynamo, absolute dynamo. One of his favorite activities was hunting white-winged doves down by the Mexican border. If he disappeared and was out of town, that's probably where he was, was chasing the wily white wing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you always knew where to find him if you needed him then."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.356178665042423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Our job was—you know, they had these big projection TVs and those kinds of things at the front. Our business was deciding and recommending what was going to be on those. The little TVs that had all the data, we were deciding, recommending, what was going to be on those, the configuration of the communications panels and who we would need voice loops to and from. In the case of the flight dynamics officer and the booster systems engineer who was on the end or far left, we had always had abort command switches on the console.\\n\\n So getting those configured and the same for everybody, it was that level of stuff in the control center itself, but the basic design of the control center, it was probably under way before we had people at my level to think about that. Lyn [Lynwood C.] Dunseith and Jim [James C.] Stokes [Jr.] were probably the big pushes for that, which are also guys that I respected and admired very much. They did just an outstanding job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly able to put together a good center and make it all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did. You know, their private contractor for that job was Philco, Philco Ford, and guys like John [W.] Hatcher, who also is not with us anymore, was integral. John's a guy, slight, not very tall, dynamo, absolute dynamo. One of his favorite activities was hunting white-winged doves down by the Mexican border. If he disappeared and was out of town, that's probably where he was, was chasing the wily white wing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you always knew where to find him if you needed him then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. Well, as you came along, you were building up to Apollo. What was the first mission then that you were going to be working on, assigned to work on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.395754072269359, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did. You know, their private contractor for that job was Philco, Philco Ford, and guys like John [W.] Hatcher, who also is not with us anymore, was integral. John's a guy, slight, not very tall, dynamo, absolute dynamo. One of his favorite activities was hunting white-winged doves down by the Mexican border. If he disappeared and was out of town, that's probably where he was, was chasing the wily white wing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you always knew where to find him if you needed him then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. Well, as you came along, you were building up to Apollo. What was the first mission then that you were going to be working on, assigned to work on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the very first Apollo, which was Apollo 201, which was not a real spacecraft. It was a launch vehicle test and had a spacecraft with some capabilities. We all worked all of those things in some capacity. In the early days, we didn't have crews working with us yet, so some of us would do capcom functions, and do the things in terms of sequencing the computer, like the launch abort mode would change when it was time to jettison the launch escape system, that tower with the rocket. So you had to tell the computer when that had happened, and that nominally was done on a voice report from the crew, so we had those kinds of inputs to make to the computer. When staging happened and you switched first stage to second stage, the astronaut, the capcom, would tell us. So we had those kind of functions early.\\n\\n I was not the flight dynamics officer on any of those until probably the first real [manned] Apollo. We had other folks in training that were running all of those jobs. I was very much involved in this integration function that I had done almost from the time I came here, so they were doing that, but when it came time to put people in it, then I was the lead flight dynamics officer. We went and did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately, the first one that was supposed to be—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.550837858077065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. Well, as you came along, you were building up to Apollo. What was the first mission then that you were going to be working on, assigned to work on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the very first Apollo, which was Apollo 201, which was not a real spacecraft. It was a launch vehicle test and had a spacecraft with some capabilities. We all worked all of those things in some capacity. In the early days, we didn't have crews working with us yet, so some of us would do capcom functions, and do the things in terms of sequencing the computer, like the launch abort mode would change when it was time to jettison the launch escape system, that tower with the rocket. So you had to tell the computer when that had happened, and that nominally was done on a voice report from the crew, so we had those kinds of inputs to make to the computer. When staging happened and you switched first stage to second stage, the astronaut, the capcom, would tell us. So we had those kind of functions early.\\n\\n I was not the flight dynamics officer on any of those until probably the first real [manned] Apollo. We had other folks in training that were running all of those jobs. I was very much involved in this integration function that I had done almost from the time I came here, so they were doing that, but when it came time to put people in it, then I was the lead flight dynamics officer. We went and did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately, the first one that was supposed to be—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not the one we actually flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, the Apollo 7?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.723153175641183, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the very first Apollo, which was Apollo 201, which was not a real spacecraft. It was a launch vehicle test and had a spacecraft with some capabilities. We all worked all of those things in some capacity. In the early days, we didn't have crews working with us yet, so some of us would do capcom functions, and do the things in terms of sequencing the computer, like the launch abort mode would change when it was time to jettison the launch escape system, that tower with the rocket. So you had to tell the computer when that had happened, and that nominally was done on a voice report from the crew, so we had those kinds of inputs to make to the computer. When staging happened and you switched first stage to second stage, the astronaut, the capcom, would tell us. So we had those kind of functions early.\\n\\n I was not the flight dynamics officer on any of those until probably the first real [manned] Apollo. We had other folks in training that were running all of those jobs. I was very much involved in this integration function that I had done almost from the time I came here, so they were doing that, but when it came time to put people in it, then I was the lead flight dynamics officer. We went and did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately, the first one that was supposed to be—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not the one we actually flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, the Apollo 7?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had the same role on Grissom's flight where they got killed, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That, unfortunately, did cause some changes that were necessitated and such, but yet a lot of people have said that without such an incident they wouldn't have been able to make it to the Moon probably eventually."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.025725750712425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not the one we actually flew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, the Apollo 7?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had the same role on Grissom's flight where they got killed, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That, unfortunately, did cause some changes that were necessitated and such, but yet a lot of people have said that without such an incident they wouldn't have been able to make it to the Moon probably eventually."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hear that. I don't disagree with it, nor do I understand it. I don't know whether they mean that there was design deficiencies or whether the quality wasn't good enough to go. I've never truly been able to make that distinction, but they do say that, and so we ended up with a very different vehicle in terms of its capability. So I'm certainly willing to accept it. I [don't] have reservations about that. But sometimes it takes something like that to really clear the air, too, and to get everybody really serious about what we were doing. Maybe that's what they mean when they say we needed that kind of incident. I don't know, but it was tough. I mean, we were in the control center when the guys died. That was not one of my favorite memories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I certainly can understand why. Apollo 7 kind of brought the whole Apollo program together, bringing it all, making it work, and then this was the first mission in that you worked from the control room as flight dynamics officer then?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.473028611902695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had the same role on Grissom's flight where they got killed, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That, unfortunately, did cause some changes that were necessitated and such, but yet a lot of people have said that without such an incident they wouldn't have been able to make it to the Moon probably eventually."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hear that. I don't disagree with it, nor do I understand it. I don't know whether they mean that there was design deficiencies or whether the quality wasn't good enough to go. I've never truly been able to make that distinction, but they do say that, and so we ended up with a very different vehicle in terms of its capability. So I'm certainly willing to accept it. I [don't] have reservations about that. But sometimes it takes something like that to really clear the air, too, and to get everybody really serious about what we were doing. Maybe that's what they mean when they say we needed that kind of incident. I don't know, but it was tough. I mean, we were in the control center when the guys died. That was not one of my favorite memories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I certainly can understand why. Apollo 7 kind of brought the whole Apollo program together, bringing it all, making it work, and then this was the first mission in that you worked from the control room as flight dynamics officer then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been very rewarding to see it all come together and work."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.164232854200858, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been very rewarding to see it all come together and work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was. It not only was the first launch that I had done and the first launch of a manned Apollo, but it was also the first rendezvous that I had done, and we did it without a \"transponder.\" Because we re-rendezvoused with the third stage, or actually the second stage of the launch vehicle, and it didn't have this wonderful transponder that gave you both range and range rate to tell you how fast you were closing on it, so you had to derive that from the range data. We got through that all right. It was also the first long-duration mission I'd done. We were there for ten days.\\n\\n It was the first sick crew I'd gotten to deal with. We got involved in that. I have to tell you that the job Glynn Lunney did, Glynn was the flight director then, and dealing with the sick crew was just nothing short of magnificent. I couldn't believe the Irishman could be that cool while he was being rained on from orbit. [Laughter] He did good.\\n\\n We had lots of memories about that one, too, you know. Launch phase was, I think it was this one, I think we got to orbit, we got the coast segment, we gave them a go-for-orbit, and the control center went dark, for real."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm almost sure that's what it was. A guy with a ditcher had gone through the power cables outside the control center. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oops. Oh, dear. What did you do at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.708138345954534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we looked at the emergency lights. [Laughter] It was real quiet. Part of Apollo, part of early Apollo, was a very limited tracking network, so we had built…the Apollo instrumentation ships and had them placed around in strategic locations, and one of which was down range in the Atlantic, so that if we lost the control center, they would be able to monitor the latter part of boost and give them a go-for-orbit. A youngster named Jay Greene, who turned out to be the flight director on Challenger when it blew up, he was on the instrumentation ship.\\n\\n So it wasn't a panic, because we knew they were there and that they were up, so we got back and got it all pulled back together and pressed on with ten days of boring holes in the sky. It was not boring, but it was boring. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it's good that all the training and simulation that you had done beforehand was able to—and people had the experience they needed to make it all happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had been integral in the requirements for those ships, too, so I knew what they were capable of, and I had hired Jay from Rockwell, so I knew what he was capable of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another little piece of history there that I hadn't thought of in a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure somebody changed some procedures about digging ditches. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.120153717727261, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had been integral in the requirements for those ships, too, so I knew what they were capable of, and I had hired Jay from Rockwell, so I knew what he was capable of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another little piece of history there that I hadn't thought of in a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure somebody changed some procedures about digging ditches. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got to impound all the ditchers during the launch phase. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely not something you'd want to have happen when you were about to land on the Moon or anything. I suppose if it had to happen on a mission, that was maybe the best one that—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.577948575252512, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another little piece of history there that I hadn't thought of in a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure somebody changed some procedures about digging ditches. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got to impound all the ditchers during the launch phase. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely not something you'd want to have happen when you were about to land on the Moon or anything. I suppose if it had to happen on a mission, that was maybe the best one that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a great way to get started. It taught us a lot about what we needed to do with the flight crews before we flew, too, because, in all honesty, Wally [Walter M. Schirra, Jr.] and the guys were not fully briefed on all the tests that were going to be done, and some of them they heard for the first time while they were there [on orbit]. Then because we were there and because it was new, we actually invented a couple of new things to do while we were there, and at least one of those went really wrong and crashed the on-board computer. I mean, it was training for all of us. It was not just checkout of the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you, previous to that time, had a lot of interaction with the flight crew, or also did your interaction levels then with the flight crew change after that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.05919577191668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a great way to get started. It taught us a lot about what we needed to do with the flight crews before we flew, too, because, in all honesty, Wally [Walter M. Schirra, Jr.] and the guys were not fully briefed on all the tests that were going to be done, and some of them they heard for the first time while they were there [on orbit]. Then because we were there and because it was new, we actually invented a couple of new things to do while we were there, and at least one of those went really wrong and crashed the on-board computer. I mean, it was training for all of us. It was not just checkout of the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you, previous to that time, had a lot of interaction with the flight crew, or also did your interaction levels then with the flight crew change after that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, we had lots of interaction with them. The flight dynamics team spent a lot of time with the flight crew, because the trajectory management was the dynamic part of the phase, doing all the maneuvers and calculating the thing, getting them there, getting them home, and so we did. But all of us were neophytes. I mean, Wally wasn't, because he had flown in Mercury and Gemini, but we were, so we didn't know all the things that we really needed to talk to them about.\\n\\n Plus we had a lot of fun with them, too. One of the things that Wally and I did continually was make quarter bets on trajectory-related events while he was in the simulator. I nearly broke him with that. [Laughter] He was easy. But Wally and I had a good time. He was, for the most part, a pretty nice guy. But he was confident. But [Apollo] 7 was problematic for him because he was sick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly couldn't have been a comfortable situation, and then like you said, there were so many new things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning mission for everyone."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.399106413240755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, we had lots of interaction with them. The flight dynamics team spent a lot of time with the flight crew, because the trajectory management was the dynamic part of the phase, doing all the maneuvers and calculating the thing, getting them there, getting them home, and so we did. But all of us were neophytes. I mean, Wally wasn't, because he had flown in Mercury and Gemini, but we were, so we didn't know all the things that we really needed to talk to them about.\\n\\n Plus we had a lot of fun with them, too. One of the things that Wally and I did continually was make quarter bets on trajectory-related events while he was in the simulator. I nearly broke him with that. [Laughter] He was easy. But Wally and I had a good time. He was, for the most part, a pretty nice guy. But he was confident. But [Apollo] 7 was problematic for him because he was sick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly couldn't have been a comfortable situation, and then like you said, there were so many new things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning mission for everyone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, which is what it was supposed to be. You cannot imagine how surprised we were when, although we were really bound up in Apollo 7, when—and I don't remember exactly when it was, but it could have been like the week before launch—they said, \"We're going to go to the Moon on the next one.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been shocking, from your standpoint."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.776784903600838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning mission for everyone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, which is what it was supposed to be. You cannot imagine how surprised we were when, although we were really bound up in Apollo 7, when—and I don't remember exactly when it was, but it could have been like the week before launch—they said, \"We're going to go to the Moon on the next one.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been shocking, from your standpoint."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. We couldn't go work on it, because we were getting ready to fly. Jay and I were clearly going to be leads on this first flight to the Moon, so we splashed down from Apollo 7 and sixty days later we went to the Moon. That was exciting. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one way of putting it. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.307538781778709, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, which is what it was supposed to be. You cannot imagine how surprised we were when, although we were really bound up in Apollo 7, when—and I don't remember exactly when it was, but it could have been like the week before launch—they said, \"We're going to go to the Moon on the next one.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been shocking, from your standpoint."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. We couldn't go work on it, because we were getting ready to fly. Jay and I were clearly going to be leads on this first flight to the Moon, so we splashed down from Apollo 7 and sixty days later we went to the Moon. That was exciting. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one way of putting it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you stop at that point ever and think about, \"Wow, look at what we're really doing here\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.897265313087454, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. We couldn't go work on it, because we were getting ready to fly. Jay and I were clearly going to be leads on this first flight to the Moon, so we splashed down from Apollo 7 and sixty days later we went to the Moon. That was exciting. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one way of putting it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you stop at that point ever and think about, \"Wow, look at what we're really doing here\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were 60-day intervals then, and I mean, it was end one and start on the next one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you bring it all together for Apollo 8 to work, or did it just kind of—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.330294792319393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you stop at that point ever and think about, \"Wow, look at what we're really doing here\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were 60-day intervals then, and I mean, it was end one and start on the next one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you bring it all together for Apollo 8 to work, or did it just kind of—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had started it, and we brought all the stuff that we were doing for what would have been the first one out, which would have probably been Apollo 10 anyway. I mean, we had all of that work done and the waves were started. We had some guys coming from Gemini now who were capable. I mean, Ed [Edward L.] Pavelka pretty much picked up the load while Jay and I finished with Apollo 7 and got on with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What shift were you assigned to in Apollo 8 for the mission actually going to the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.589216435910435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were 60-day intervals then, and I mean, it was end one and start on the next one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you bring it all together for Apollo 8 to work, or did it just kind of—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had started it, and we brought all the stuff that we were doing for what would have been the first one out, which would have probably been Apollo 10 anyway. I mean, we had all of that work done and the waves were started. We had some guys coming from Gemini now who were capable. I mean, Ed [Edward L.] Pavelka pretty much picked up the load while Jay and I finished with Apollo 7 and got on with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What shift were you assigned to in Apollo 8 for the mission actually going to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jay launched it. I no longer remember who did reentry, but I did the lunar orbit parts, the getting in and out of lunar orbit. The orbit determination problem was going to be a real zoo there, because we hadn't done that before with a vehicle. JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] had done it, we hadn't done it yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting to see whether they had gotten lunar orbit, what was that like?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.988018262122706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had started it, and we brought all the stuff that we were doing for what would have been the first one out, which would have probably been Apollo 10 anyway. I mean, we had all of that work done and the waves were started. We had some guys coming from Gemini now who were capable. I mean, Ed [Edward L.] Pavelka pretty much picked up the load while Jay and I finished with Apollo 7 and got on with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What shift were you assigned to in Apollo 8 for the mission actually going to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jay launched it. I no longer remember who did reentry, but I did the lunar orbit parts, the getting in and out of lunar orbit. The orbit determination problem was going to be a real zoo there, because we hadn't done that before with a vehicle. JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] had done it, we hadn't done it yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting to see whether they had gotten lunar orbit, what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was not nice. They're up there with a single engine, no backup. If they have problems with the engine, they can end up in anything from doing a whifferdill around the Moon and going away, to being stuck in lunar orbit. I mean, we had the same problem when they did trans-Earth injection. All of the things that you worried about during lunar orbit insertion are now possible again in trans-Earth injection, because they're all basically associated with changing the energy of the orbit that you're in. One of the ways the orbit gets squirrelly, instead of being an orbit that has enough energy to go around the Moon and come all the way back to Earth, it has enough energy to go around the Moon and then get to the point where the Earth and the Moon have equal gravitational pull on it. Then who knows where it goes from there, or does it become another little moonlet? It's scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been a very intense time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.431131402358561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jay launched it. I no longer remember who did reentry, but I did the lunar orbit parts, the getting in and out of lunar orbit. The orbit determination problem was going to be a real zoo there, because we hadn't done that before with a vehicle. JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] had done it, we hadn't done it yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they went behind the Moon for the first time and you were waiting to see whether they had gotten lunar orbit, what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was not nice. They're up there with a single engine, no backup. If they have problems with the engine, they can end up in anything from doing a whifferdill around the Moon and going away, to being stuck in lunar orbit. I mean, we had the same problem when they did trans-Earth injection. All of the things that you worried about during lunar orbit insertion are now possible again in trans-Earth injection, because they're all basically associated with changing the energy of the orbit that you're in. One of the ways the orbit gets squirrelly, instead of being an orbit that has enough energy to go around the Moon and come all the way back to Earth, it has enough energy to go around the Moon and then get to the point where the Earth and the Moon have equal gravitational pull on it. Then who knows where it goes from there, or does it become another little moonlet? It's scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been a very intense time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really was scary. So doing it again when we back on Apollo 10 and had a lunar module with us for a backup engine, you know, it was just like being in a Cadillac after we'd just gotten done with a manure spreader. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it must have been very rewarding or satisfying or a relief when it did all work."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.034590447065067, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was not nice. They're up there with a single engine, no backup. If they have problems with the engine, they can end up in anything from doing a whifferdill around the Moon and going away, to being stuck in lunar orbit. I mean, we had the same problem when they did trans-Earth injection. All of the things that you worried about during lunar orbit insertion are now possible again in trans-Earth injection, because they're all basically associated with changing the energy of the orbit that you're in. One of the ways the orbit gets squirrelly, instead of being an orbit that has enough energy to go around the Moon and come all the way back to Earth, it has enough energy to go around the Moon and then get to the point where the Earth and the Moon have equal gravitational pull on it. Then who knows where it goes from there, or does it become another little moonlet? It's scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been a very intense time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really was scary. So doing it again when we back on Apollo 10 and had a lunar module with us for a backup engine, you know, it was just like being in a Cadillac after we'd just gotten done with a manure spreader. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it must have been very rewarding or satisfying or a relief when it did all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, and we were all like sponges again. I mean, we were learning so much about translunar navigation problems and lunar orbit navigation. We were seeing things that we didn't expect, which were little perturbations to the trajectory, and were just absolutely stunned at how sensitive it all was. By the same token, we learned about how easy it was to fix, because if it was a small perturbation to disturb the trajectory, then it was a small maneuver to fix it, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning mission, then."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.816211607850075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really was scary. So doing it again when we back on Apollo 10 and had a lunar module with us for a backup engine, you know, it was just like being in a Cadillac after we'd just gotten done with a manure spreader. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it must have been very rewarding or satisfying or a relief when it did all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, and we were all like sponges again. I mean, we were learning so much about translunar navigation problems and lunar orbit navigation. We were seeing things that we didn't expect, which were little perturbations to the trajectory, and were just absolutely stunned at how sensitive it all was. By the same token, we learned about how easy it was to fix, because if it was a small perturbation to disturb the trajectory, then it was a small maneuver to fix it, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning mission, then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but we all ended with a great deal of confidence in the vehicle, too. The vehicle was really, really a piece of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The vehicle and the crews, crews supporting it, both the flight crew and the ground crews, that you all knew what you were doing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.79579067538897, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, and we were all like sponges again. I mean, we were learning so much about translunar navigation problems and lunar orbit navigation. We were seeing things that we didn't expect, which were little perturbations to the trajectory, and were just absolutely stunned at how sensitive it all was. By the same token, we learned about how easy it was to fix, because if it was a small perturbation to disturb the trajectory, then it was a small maneuver to fix it, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good learning mission, then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but we all ended with a great deal of confidence in the vehicle, too. The vehicle was really, really a piece of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The vehicle and the crews, crews supporting it, both the flight crew and the ground crews, that you all knew what you were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we could go ahead and take a break here and we'll change out our tapes.\\n\\n We've just finished talking about Apollo 8 and the challenge with that mission and some of the things you discovered going around. Some of the next missions were then building up still toward the lunar landing, Apollo 9 with the lunar module and command module, both testing out in Earth orbit and then [Apollo] 10 going back to the Moon and testing them both in lunar orbit. Were there any particular incidents around either of those missions that stuck in your mind, or any particular things you learned?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.884211861543303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but we all ended with a great deal of confidence in the vehicle, too. The vehicle was really, really a piece of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The vehicle and the crews, crews supporting it, both the flight crew and the ground crews, that you all knew what you were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we could go ahead and take a break here and we'll change out our tapes.\\n\\n We've just finished talking about Apollo 8 and the challenge with that mission and some of the things you discovered going around. Some of the next missions were then building up still toward the lunar landing, Apollo 9 with the lunar module and command module, both testing out in Earth orbit and then [Apollo] 10 going back to the Moon and testing them both in lunar orbit. Were there any particular incidents around either of those missions that stuck in your mind, or any particular things you learned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I launched Apollo 10, and also I got to run the first rendezvous around the Moon. If I remember the numbers, the command module and the lunar module got about 700 miles apart, something like that, and then we had to bring them back together. So that was another great reassurance builder, about our ability to navigate and to pull it off. It was an easier problem than getting the crew up off the lunar surface, which turned out was going to be next. I don't think it was supposed to be, but the way the schedules worked out, it was. So that piece, from a learning and a performance standpoint, was really important.\\n\\n I don't remember anything particular about launch phase or lunar orbit other than that. I mean, it was pretty much we'd done it once and now we did it again, except when the crew came out from behind the Moon after trans-Earth injection, the crew advised the ground that I was going to get a bottle of champagne for [having done] all that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty special."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.204679846159223, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we could go ahead and take a break here and we'll change out our tapes.\\n\\n We've just finished talking about Apollo 8 and the challenge with that mission and some of the things you discovered going around. Some of the next missions were then building up still toward the lunar landing, Apollo 9 with the lunar module and command module, both testing out in Earth orbit and then [Apollo] 10 going back to the Moon and testing them both in lunar orbit. Were there any particular incidents around either of those missions that stuck in your mind, or any particular things you learned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I launched Apollo 10, and also I got to run the first rendezvous around the Moon. If I remember the numbers, the command module and the lunar module got about 700 miles apart, something like that, and then we had to bring them back together. So that was another great reassurance builder, about our ability to navigate and to pull it off. It was an easier problem than getting the crew up off the lunar surface, which turned out was going to be next. I don't think it was supposed to be, but the way the schedules worked out, it was. So that piece, from a learning and a performance standpoint, was really important.\\n\\n I don't remember anything particular about launch phase or lunar orbit other than that. I mean, it was pretty much we'd done it once and now we did it again, except when the crew came out from behind the Moon after trans-Earth injection, the crew advised the ground that I was going to get a bottle of champagne for [having done] all that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty special."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I thought that was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's nice to have them recognize your work in that manner. Do you keep a recording of that part of the—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 24.67186649573247, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I launched Apollo 10, and also I got to run the first rendezvous around the Moon. If I remember the numbers, the command module and the lunar module got about 700 miles apart, something like that, and then we had to bring them back together. So that was another great reassurance builder, about our ability to navigate and to pull it off. It was an easier problem than getting the crew up off the lunar surface, which turned out was going to be next. I don't think it was supposed to be, but the way the schedules worked out, it was. So that piece, from a learning and a performance standpoint, was really important.\\n\\n I don't remember anything particular about launch phase or lunar orbit other than that. I mean, it was pretty much we'd done it once and now we did it again, except when the crew came out from behind the Moon after trans-Earth injection, the crew advised the ground that I was going to get a bottle of champagne for [having done] all that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty special."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I thought that was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's nice to have them recognize your work in that manner. Do you keep a recording of that part of the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I didn't. I should have. I never got the champagne. [Laughter] But that didn't really matter; it was the acknowledgement.\\n\\n And sixty days later, whatever it was, we went back and I'm now ending my career as a flight dynamics officer. I pulled one shift on Apollo 11 and that was the launch rendezvous off the lunar surface, and that was the last time that I served as a flight dynamics officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's certainly a very special mission to have your last one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.819488638519235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically that's the last—I think that's the last clear memory I have of anything to do with Apollo, and I was off to do Skylab then. Somewhere in there we had started the mission techniques work for Skylab, and it was so different from the Moon. The Moon began very quickly to be like a really good dream with all its intensity that you could reconstruct anytime you wanted to, but it was kind of surrealistic in a way, too. You all may have had that experience, to go out and look at Moon now and think that thirty years ago we were walking around on that. Say what? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It really is something to think about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Having two of the critical missions in the Apollo program, we've touched on Apollo 8 and Apollo 11—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I've left out a huge piece here. I have left out a huge—I didn't realize I was leaving it out. In the middle of all of this, I was made a Flight Director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. [Laughter] We will definitely talk about that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.799431820576928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Having two of the critical missions in the Apollo program, we've touched on Apollo 8 and Apollo 11—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I've left out a huge piece here. I have left out a huge—I didn't realize I was leaving it out. In the middle of all of this, I was made a Flight Director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. [Laughter] We will definitely talk about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's a bit of overwhelm. We had data priority for Apollo, data priority for Skylab, assistant chief of the Flight Dynamics Branch, and now I'm going to be a flight director [Purple Flight]. Some of the younger guys, and I remember Bill [William M.] Stovall and Chuck [Charles F.] Dieterich, who were a couple of guys from the trench, they would come to talk to me about a problem and they would ask me which hat I was wearing. [Laughter] Because I was in a position where I was working for myself, and it was very confusing to them as to what role I was speaking, as their administrative leader or as the data priority, or was I being a flight director, because the perspective is different from all of those things.\\n\\n Yes, Apollo 16."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you get the opportunity to be a flight director? Do you recall how that happened, how that came about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.99936868952992, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I've left out a huge piece here. I have left out a huge—I didn't realize I was leaving it out. In the middle of all of this, I was made a Flight Director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. [Laughter] We will definitely talk about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's a bit of overwhelm. We had data priority for Apollo, data priority for Skylab, assistant chief of the Flight Dynamics Branch, and now I'm going to be a flight director [Purple Flight]. Some of the younger guys, and I remember Bill [William M.] Stovall and Chuck [Charles F.] Dieterich, who were a couple of guys from the trench, they would come to talk to me about a problem and they would ask me which hat I was wearing. [Laughter] Because I was in a position where I was working for myself, and it was very confusing to them as to what role I was speaking, as their administrative leader or as the data priority, or was I being a flight director, because the perspective is different from all of those things.\\n\\n Yes, Apollo 16."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you get the opportunity to be a flight director? Do you recall how that happened, how that came about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that's fine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.888109493246816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't. I really don't remember the specifics. Don [Donald R.] Puddy and Chuck [Charles R.] Lewis and Neil [B.] Hutchison and I, it was serendipity, all four of our home states start with O. [Laughter] We weren't really made flight directors; we were made deputy flight directors. And I didn't understand why, since the previous classes had not been deputy flight directors, until I understood that Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, when he had been named, was named the deputy flight director. He was the Director of Flight Operations now, so he's the namer of the flight directors, so he was not going to start us out at a rank above the one he'd started at. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew that we were going to be flight directors for Skylab, that that was our principal role, and what we did on Apollo as flight directors was OJT [on-the-job training]. It was training in being a flight director. Don and I worked Apollo 16, and Neil and Chuck worked Apollo 17. The other pair worked in what was called the SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis] room, which was an advisory room to support the ones that were on the console."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your training entail for the job?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.151121391852667, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And it won't retract. It's stuck. It's jammed. We fooled with it, fooled with it, and we're approaching loss of signal prior to trans-Earth injection. And I remember we've got all these heavy-hitters up behind me on the console and they're going to have a philosophy, they're going to have a plan. I told them how many minutes they had till loss of signal, and I can hear them up there debating about what's the right thing to do. We ran out of time, and I told the capcom [to tell the crew] to jettison the mass spectrometer boom with that pyrotechnic device on it, and it banged it and had already gotten the vehicle in attitude so that we would punch that boom out into an orbit that we wouldn't intersect it again, you know, from trans-Earth. They did, and it went away and gave them a go for trans-Earth injection, and they went behind the Moon. In a couple three or four minutes, this gang behind me says, \"We have a recommendation for you.\"\\n\\n I said, \"Nope, I have a recommendation for you. Take a break, and in about forty minutes we'll have AOS and the crew should be on their way home.\"\\n\\n And they said, \"Oh, okay.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did the job they had put you in a position to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was Apollo 16. It's amazing that I forgot there for a moment I'd done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you did a lot of things. Talking more about Apollo 16, before they had gone down to the lunar surface, they had some problems with the command module engine and some oscillations with that. Were you at all involved in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jay [Greene] was on for that. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work any of the lunar surface activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.72346821316963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was Apollo 16. It's amazing that I forgot there for a moment I'd done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you did a lot of things. Talking more about Apollo 16, before they had gone down to the lunar surface, they had some problems with the command module engine and some oscillations with that. Were you at all involved in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jay [Greene] was on for that. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work any of the lunar surface activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody pulled a shift, but I think we deputy flight directors were doing sleep shift planning things. I don't think we were doing active activities. I don't recall doing those, so it would make sense that we were doing the planning kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You certainly had enough interesting things that happened during your times on console."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.359409125744033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jay [Greene] was on for that. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work any of the lunar surface activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody pulled a shift, but I think we deputy flight directors were doing sleep shift planning things. I don't think we were doing active activities. I don't recall doing those, so it would make sense that we were doing the planning kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You certainly had enough interesting things that happened during your times on console."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, Skylab was a lot more interesting from that standpoint than Apollo was, believe it or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we will certainly talk on that. Before we go on to Skylab, there's a couple other things I'd like to talk at least briefly about on Apollo."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.177121250826705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody pulled a shift, but I think we deputy flight directors were doing sleep shift planning things. I don't think we were doing active activities. I don't recall doing those, so it would make sense that we were doing the planning kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You certainly had enough interesting things that happened during your times on console."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, Skylab was a lot more interesting from that standpoint than Apollo was, believe it or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we will certainly talk on that. Before we go on to Skylab, there's a couple other things I'd like to talk at least briefly about on Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One being your thoughts on Apollo 8 and Apollo 11, both unique missions from many standpoints. Is there one of those that you think was the prime mission or the one that accomplished the goal most in your mind, or that was the biggest challenge for you, or meant the most?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.864687167850484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, we were cocooned. Most of us were working 3,000, 3,500 hours a year on a standard issue 2,000-hour work year. We were all doing close to double time, and that's really all there was. No. Did anything happen then? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A few things. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, we really, in a sense, missed the hippie phenomenon. I'm serious. We didn't know anything about that. We'd see a picture of a young woman putting a flower in the end of the rifle and say, \"What the hell are they doing that for?\" Then we'd go back to whatever it was we were doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly had quite a goal to accomplish and work on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But I can't tell you how much fun it was. It really was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite an experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 20.960763519833872, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, we really, in a sense, missed the hippie phenomenon. I'm serious. We didn't know anything about that. We'd see a picture of a young woman putting a flower in the end of the rifle and say, \"What the hell are they doing that for?\" Then we'd go back to whatever it was we were doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly had quite a goal to accomplish and work on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But I can't tell you how much fun it was. It really was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite an experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, looking at a couple of the other missions, you said that after Apollo 11 you moved into the data priority area, and for Apollo 12, at least from a trajectory standpoint, it was quite a challenge to get—you wanted to go for the pinpoint landings and shooting for the Surveyor. Were you much involved with discussions on that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.532027922319568, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a psychic experience. I sat bolt upright in bed and knew that something awful had happened, and jumped in my clothes and my car and went to the control center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was a peculiar kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That's kind of chilling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got right in the middle of it just immediately. I had now been flight techniques just long enough that everybody was looking to me instead of Bill. Although Bill was still there and still involved, the piece of the development that I could do, or that mission techniques could do, was my part. Ken Mattingly and John Aaron did the thing that was the limiting resource, which was [they] finally found a way to have enough electricity to get home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you worked with them in trying to establish—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.48003102479952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was a peculiar kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That's kind of chilling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got right in the middle of it just immediately. I had now been flight techniques just long enough that everybody was looking to me instead of Bill. Although Bill was still there and still involved, the piece of the development that I could do, or that mission techniques could do, was my part. Ken Mattingly and John Aaron did the thing that was the limiting resource, which was [they] finally found a way to have enough electricity to get home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you worked with them in trying to establish—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did everything we could, and then they just had to take it and finish it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.533367805332798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got right in the middle of it just immediately. I had now been flight techniques just long enough that everybody was looking to me instead of Bill. Although Bill was still there and still involved, the piece of the development that I could do, or that mission techniques could do, was my part. Ken Mattingly and John Aaron did the thing that was the limiting resource, which was [they] finally found a way to have enough electricity to get home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you worked with them in trying to establish—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did everything we could, and then they just had to take it and finish it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very much so. I yelled something at my neighbor as I went to the car, because his lights were still on, he was still up, and what he says is, he said he went to the bathroom and then turned the TV on, and when he turned it on, I was walking into the control center, the camera was there, and the problem was, I lived fourteen miles from the—so it was a trip. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't waste much time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.814853117036442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did everything we could, and then they just had to take it and finish it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very much so. I yelled something at my neighbor as I went to the car, because his lights were still on, he was still up, and what he says is, he said he went to the bathroom and then turned the TV on, and when he turned it on, I was walking into the control center, the camera was there, and the problem was, I lived fourteen miles from the—so it was a trip. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't waste much time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't even remember that part of it. I was trying to understand it, trying to get a sense, if I could, of what had happened, and all I had was it was bad. \"Go to the control center now.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll go ahead and take a quick break again and change out our tape.\\n\\n We should talk now about Apollo in some pretty good detail, and you said toward the end of Apollo that, of course, you had worked as flight director for Apollo 16 and then you worked in the SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis] room for Apollo 17, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.34983679670716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very much so. I yelled something at my neighbor as I went to the car, because his lights were still on, he was still up, and what he says is, he said he went to the bathroom and then turned the TV on, and when he turned it on, I was walking into the control center, the camera was there, and the problem was, I lived fourteen miles from the—so it was a trip. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't waste much time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't even remember that part of it. I was trying to understand it, trying to get a sense, if I could, of what had happened, and all I had was it was bad. \"Go to the control center now.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll go ahead and take a quick break again and change out our tape.\\n\\n We should talk now about Apollo in some pretty good detail, and you said toward the end of Apollo that, of course, you had worked as flight director for Apollo 16 and then you worked in the SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis] room for Apollo 17, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in there, what were your duties and responsibilities for supporting that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.05537421856351, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't even remember that part of it. I was trying to understand it, trying to get a sense, if I could, of what had happened, and all I had was it was bad. \"Go to the control center now.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll go ahead and take a quick break again and change out our tape.\\n\\n We should talk now about Apollo in some pretty good detail, and you said toward the end of Apollo that, of course, you had worked as flight director for Apollo 16 and then you worked in the SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis] room for Apollo 17, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in there, what were your duties and responsibilities for supporting that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the SPAN room was a function that basically coordinated analysis. They were very much a support role, but they were a senior support role. For instance, something would be going wrong with a spacecraft system, then the interface with the contractor, the builder who had built that system, was generally handled through the SPAN. So it was more an admin advisory process than it was anything else. So that's what we did, and basically we were \"gofers\" for whoever the flight director was out there. If he needed us to go do something in a deputy flight director role, he'd trigger us and we'd go do it. It was a terrible demotion to go off the flight director console into SPAN. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. Quite a change."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.06152690951501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in there, what were your duties and responsibilities for supporting that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the SPAN room was a function that basically coordinated analysis. They were very much a support role, but they were a senior support role. For instance, something would be going wrong with a spacecraft system, then the interface with the contractor, the builder who had built that system, was generally handled through the SPAN. So it was more an admin advisory process than it was anything else. So that's what we did, and basically we were \"gofers\" for whoever the flight director was out there. If he needed us to go do something in a deputy flight director role, he'd trigger us and we'd go do it. It was a terrible demotion to go off the flight director console into SPAN. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. Quite a change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But, of course, you were at the same time getting ready to be flight director for Skylab and had also been working Skylab data priority?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 33.40169656612779, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the SPAN room was a function that basically coordinated analysis. They were very much a support role, but they were a senior support role. For instance, something would be going wrong with a spacecraft system, then the interface with the contractor, the builder who had built that system, was generally handled through the SPAN. So it was more an admin advisory process than it was anything else. So that's what we did, and basically we were \"gofers\" for whoever the flight director was out there. If he needed us to go do something in a deputy flight director role, he'd trigger us and we'd go do it. It was a terrible demotion to go off the flight director console into SPAN. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. Quite a change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But, of course, you were at the same time getting ready to be flight director for Skylab and had also been working Skylab data priority?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about some of what was involved in all of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 22.668551740141986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But, of course, you were at the same time getting ready to be flight director for Skylab and had also been working Skylab data priority?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about some of what was involved in all of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Skylab, its principal difference from earlier Earth orbit missions was going to be the duration, because the longest Earth orbit we'd had was two weeks—Gemini VII. So we weren't terribly concerned about the first Skylab, because it was only going to be four weeks, but then it was going to be eight weeks and then it was going to be twelve weeks. That had some potential. We didn't think enough about the fact that the Skylab was going to be there for a year and you weren't going to be able to send a technician up to work on it. We were going to do rendezvous, but we had done rendezvous at the Moon now, so rendezvous in Earth orbit really were becoming old hat. Very quickly we had the Apollo launch vehicle. We hadn't flown very many of the 200 Series for a long time, but we flew a bunch of them early in the Apollo program, so there wasn't a lot new about that.\\n\\n The other piece was the large number of experimental endeavors that were going to go on up there, and the thrust was going to be of maximizing things [scientific activities] that basically interfered with each other, which, by the way, is the same problem [you]'ve got on the [International] Space Station. They're doing that, and it's one of the big problems that the current Space Station really doesn't address, is the conflict that's there. It's why Max [Maxime A.] Faget's idea of a whole bunch of little stations, single-discipline oriented, would have been a better way to do the science, not necessarily a better way economically or operationally, but to do the science. Anyhow, that was the problem. Milton [L.] Windler. Have you all talked to Milton Windler? Will you talk to Milton Windler?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not yet, but we hope to, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.23910910692126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember anything about that except the trajectory-related stuff. Vance [D.] Brand and I did a tremendous amount of work trying to figure out how to control that vehicle with those thrusters gone, and we finally solved it adequately with an offset CG [center of gravity], so that if you translated in that direction with the offset CG, it would yaw you. Once you got the big engine started, it wasn't a problem anymore. I mean, you had yaw control while that was going on, and once you separated the command module, it had its own attitude control system. So we got that done.\\n\\n I think Jerry and his crew did not get adequately supported in terms of [pre-flight] interface because of the distraction of the recovery problem. And they were up there the longest and they were all rookies, so the last one was more awkward than the other ones were, for an awful lot of reasons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in some of that and trying to find ways to make that work and pull everyone together between the control team and the flight crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The answer is yes, but I was unaware of the problem. I was unaware of the problem until we got on orbit and discovered that we were—well, we didn't discover, the crew finally told us that we were overloading them. It turned out that we started out treating them like we had treated Alan's crew at the end of their flight, and they'd had sixty days of training and integration and all that. For us, we'd been up there so long now, it was almost like we didn't realize we'd changed out crews. So we [had] a lot of those kinds of things to work through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had another learning experience. Luckily were you were able to make it all come together and work it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did, but I also feel like we got lucky in some ways. A ninety-day crew in the air and a year-old crew on the ground with all of that stuff is, in my opinion, not at the top of their form."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully that's something they'll keep in mind for the International Space Station now."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.154565674356956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The answer is yes, but I was unaware of the problem. I was unaware of the problem until we got on orbit and discovered that we were—well, we didn't discover, the crew finally told us that we were overloading them. It turned out that we started out treating them like we had treated Alan's crew at the end of their flight, and they'd had sixty days of training and integration and all that. For us, we'd been up there so long now, it was almost like we didn't realize we'd changed out crews. So we [had] a lot of those kinds of things to work through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had another learning experience. Luckily were you were able to make it all come together and work it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did, but I also feel like we got lucky in some ways. A ninety-day crew in the air and a year-old crew on the ground with all of that stuff is, in my opinion, not at the top of their form."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully that's something they'll keep in mind for the International Space Station now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's not so much a problem with the International Space Station, because the Shuttle pilots are never going to get that worn down. It makes a difference, but it makes a tremendous difference for something like going to Mars. Big. Plus, they don't have the ground support. When you go to Mars, you're on your own when you get there. You got a many-minute time delay, so you really can't help those guys [in real-time]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It'll be interesting to see what happens with that when we get there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.060628527063283, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did, but I also feel like we got lucky in some ways. A ninety-day crew in the air and a year-old crew on the ground with all of that stuff is, in my opinion, not at the top of their form."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully that's something they'll keep in mind for the International Space Station now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's not so much a problem with the International Space Station, because the Shuttle pilots are never going to get that worn down. It makes a difference, but it makes a tremendous difference for something like going to Mars. Big. Plus, they don't have the ground support. When you go to Mars, you're on your own when you get there. You got a many-minute time delay, so you really can't help those guys [in real-time]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It'll be interesting to see what happens with that when we get there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it will. Skylab, in lots of ways, is like the year that never happened, because I continued this too many jobs. With the trauma we had, I was even more focused on what was going on there than I had been on the Apollo stuff. Being a flight director was different than being a flight dynamics officer, because your perspective was so much broader, the number of things you had to deal with and integrate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very complex time with a lot going on."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.067365030070315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's not so much a problem with the International Space Station, because the Shuttle pilots are never going to get that worn down. It makes a difference, but it makes a tremendous difference for something like going to Mars. Big. Plus, they don't have the ground support. When you go to Mars, you're on your own when you get there. You got a many-minute time delay, so you really can't help those guys [in real-time]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It'll be interesting to see what happens with that when we get there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it will. Skylab, in lots of ways, is like the year that never happened, because I continued this too many jobs. With the trauma we had, I was even more focused on what was going on there than I had been on the Apollo stuff. Being a flight director was different than being a flight dynamics officer, because your perspective was so much broader, the number of things you had to deal with and integrate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very complex time with a lot going on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any other aspects of Skylab that you recall that were important at the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.185961144522572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it will. Skylab, in lots of ways, is like the year that never happened, because I continued this too many jobs. With the trauma we had, I was even more focused on what was going on there than I had been on the Apollo stuff. Being a flight director was different than being a flight dynamics officer, because your perspective was so much broader, the number of things you had to deal with and integrate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very complex time with a lot going on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any other aspects of Skylab that you recall that were important at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I always wished we'd have done them in reverse order, that we'd done Skylab first and then gone to the Moon, but the politics of the problem did not support that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a lot of people had initially had that as an idea."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.31773460502508, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any other aspects of Skylab that you recall that were important at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I always wished we'd have done them in reverse order, that we'd done Skylab first and then gone to the Moon, but the politics of the problem did not support that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a lot of people had initially had that as an idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I think it was, but Skylab was never appreciated, because it [was], \"Why are we boring holes in the sky after we've been to the Moon? Let's go to Andromeda [Galaxy] or somewhere really interesting.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, Skylab often does get—it's kind of an afterthought a lot of times."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.575260672250089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I always wished we'd have done them in reverse order, that we'd done Skylab first and then gone to the Moon, but the politics of the problem did not support that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a lot of people had initially had that as an idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I think it was, but Skylab was never appreciated, because it [was], \"Why are we boring holes in the sky after we've been to the Moon? Let's go to Andromeda [Galaxy] or somewhere really interesting.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, Skylab often does get—it's kind of an afterthought a lot of times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it produced a tremendous amount of very valuable information about the Earth and about the sun and about space flight and about the human physiology, metals and materials, etc, etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of valuable science."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.972511858055654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I think it was, but Skylab was never appreciated, because it [was], \"Why are we boring holes in the sky after we've been to the Moon? Let's go to Andromeda [Galaxy] or somewhere really interesting.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, Skylab often does get—it's kind of an afterthought a lot of times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it produced a tremendous amount of very valuable information about the Earth and about the sun and about space flight and about the human physiology, metals and materials, etc, etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of valuable science."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, absolutely. A worthwhile program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very. Very much so. Well, following Skylab came Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP]. Were you at all involved in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.969457620061837, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it produced a tremendous amount of very valuable information about the Earth and about the sun and about space flight and about the human physiology, metals and materials, etc, etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of valuable science."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, absolutely. A worthwhile program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very. Very much so. Well, following Skylab came Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP]. Were you at all involved in that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for about a half a day. Yes, [M. P.] Pete Frank said he wanted me to be the lead flight director for Apollo-Soyuz, and Kenny [Kenneth S.] Kleinknecht, who was the director of flight operations at that point, said he wanted me to become the crew/ground liaison with Rockwell for the crew interface. And since Pete worked for Kenny, Kenny won and I became a part-time Rockwell person. I spent a lot of time out there doing that job, which was directly in line with the mission techniques part now, because really mission techniques is about the crew-ground interface and who's going to do what and who's responsible for what and where does the information come from and what computations go on on board and what go on on the ground, you know, all that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything that was done differently for this mission or was it pretty similar to the other Apollo and Skylab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.46290482861706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was very different from the impact of the international crew and the international cooperation required to do that. The vehicles are incompatible in terms of they're different electrically and they have different docking mechanisms. The Russians have got this three—thing with the three petals on it and the Americans have got the probe and drogue, which is an inverted umbrella with a retraction. So they built this adapter to go between them, and the Americans built that. I've always suspected it's because the Russians couldn't get off the dime with their bureaucracy. They couldn't get anything approved. I had the clear impression, listening to those guys, that when they finally started getting serious about procedural planning and mission design and that sort of thing that they were so—\"lethargic\" is the wrong word—labyrinthic in their process, that they were virtually nonresponsive. So they ended up finding themselves and proposing and the Russians saying, \"Yes, that looks like a good plan.\" But other than the periphery of hearing people talk about it, I didn't know, I wasn't very much involved, and the Shuttle was coming on like gangbusters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever think about having worked with the Air Force and then the Naval Weapons Lab and along those lines, did you ever think about the fact that now here you were working in cooperation with the Russians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I think civilians working with civilians is not the same thing. If you're not at the political level or in the armed services, then all that stuff in between isn't necessarily as tough. It's almost like the relationship between Johnson and Marshall, you know. At the top level they've got some problems, but at the working level we didn't have any problems with those people. I mean, we worked fine. We got it all done, what we needed to do. We just didn't tell our bosses. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] Keep it less complicated that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just do your job and they do theirs."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.403227587352289, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, I think civilians working with civilians is not the same thing. If you're not at the political level or in the armed services, then all that stuff in between isn't necessarily as tough. It's almost like the relationship between Johnson and Marshall, you know. At the top level they've got some problems, but at the working level we didn't have any problems with those people. I mean, we worked fine. We got it all done, what we needed to do. We just didn't tell our bosses. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] Keep it less complicated that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just do your job and they do theirs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. Well, you mentioned that Shuttle was coming along and, of course, there was a lot that went into Shuttle, it was so different than the other programs, going to be a reusable vehicle, and just the aspects of the vehicle itself. What was then your role for the early Shuttle and building up to that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.960261526219004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Shuttle was interesting in that it was the first time we had built-in redundancy and the phenomenon of redundancy management. So for the computing system you had four of these machines that were all doing exactly the same thing. At the end of every cycle, they compared their answers and if they agreed, they went to the next cycle. If they didn't agree, they kicked the guy that didn't agree and turned him off. So that was a whole new kind of [philosophy]—we had rate gyros, rate sensors, and in gangs of three, like Hubble has now. Had accelerometers in gangs of three, multiple platforms. That vehicle was built to fail. So generally everything was two-fault-tolerant in terms of the critical [stuff], but to manage the procedures and the software and all, to manage all of those systems in that context were really interesting. They were all different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As it was all different, but were there any big surprises or big challenges in this particular program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The scary part of the program [for me] was the fact that we weren't going to be able to do any unmanned orbital tests with it, that the first time we went to orbit, it was going to be for real. So that really kind of held everybody's attention really, really hard to be sure we did it right.\\n\\n Because there were people involved, we still had parochialism. I had some tickets that I printed up. When I'd go to a meeting with my seniors and they would make a decision that I disagreed with, I often gave them a ticket. What it was, was a free ride on the first Shuttle. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I like that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they were not very popular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yet you were getting across your point."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.400290584687781, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The scary part of the program [for me] was the fact that we weren't going to be able to do any unmanned orbital tests with it, that the first time we went to orbit, it was going to be for real. So that really kind of held everybody's attention really, really hard to be sure we did it right.\\n\\n Because there were people involved, we still had parochialism. I had some tickets that I printed up. When I'd go to a meeting with my seniors and they would make a decision that I disagreed with, I often gave them a ticket. What it was, was a free ride on the first Shuttle. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I like that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they were not very popular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yet you were getting across your point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or at least how I felt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.263985138931702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. As a matter of fact, I was gone. I left [Flight Operations] to go do other things before the Shuttle ever started flying. One of the structural recommendations I made was that the lead flight directors ought to chair the mission techniques activity for the specific kinds of things they were going to be doing, because doing as many different things as it was clear was going to be going on didn't make any sense to me. They all decided that was not a good plan, because most of them didn't want to do mission techniques. I think that's the way it ended up anyway, at least it was for a while.\\n\\n But I then went on to do the payload integration job, which was a program office function, but I didn't go to do the job so much as I went to set up the organization for the mission operations side of it. I did that, got it started, got it chartered, got it peopled, and had for my deputy a guy named—dropped his name. Leonard. He was a Shuttle program manager. Oh, for goodness sakes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know we can look it up in the record for sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Anyway, he was my deputy. When I thought it was adequately off the ground and running, then that's when I left NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been a lot of complexities going into payload operations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was. I mean, the number of payloads for the Shuttle is infinite. The number of combinations of payloads for the Shuttle is infinite. I mean, you got a cargo bay that's roughly the size of a boxcar, and you can put an awful lot of different kinds of things in there, and they all have to be compatible with each other and with the Orbiter and with the orbits you're going to use. So payload management is—well, it's the reason for existence, for the Shuttle, it's for whatever you can carry. It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different from the earlier programs."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.848872376590779, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Anyway, he was my deputy. When I thought it was adequately off the ground and running, then that's when I left NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been a lot of complexities going into payload operations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was. I mean, the number of payloads for the Shuttle is infinite. The number of combinations of payloads for the Shuttle is infinite. I mean, you got a cargo bay that's roughly the size of a boxcar, and you can put an awful lot of different kinds of things in there, and they all have to be compatible with each other and with the Orbiter and with the orbits you're going to use. So payload management is—well, it's the reason for existence, for the Shuttle, it's for whatever you can carry. It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different from the earlier programs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very, very different. Plus it's a reusable vehicle. I guess I think that at least for a long time the Orbiters were more different from each other than any of the other spacecraft have been, with the exception of going from the first model of the lunar configuration to the J Series. Like the different—between Apollo 14 and 15, those were very different vehicles. But the Shuttles were all different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you were setting up the office, you said your main focus was on getting the operation up and running then for the payload integration. Were there anything along the way—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.498747085100866, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was. I mean, the number of payloads for the Shuttle is infinite. The number of combinations of payloads for the Shuttle is infinite. I mean, you got a cargo bay that's roughly the size of a boxcar, and you can put an awful lot of different kinds of things in there, and they all have to be compatible with each other and with the Orbiter and with the orbits you're going to use. So payload management is—well, it's the reason for existence, for the Shuttle, it's for whatever you can carry. It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very different from the earlier programs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very, very different. Plus it's a reusable vehicle. I guess I think that at least for a long time the Orbiters were more different from each other than any of the other spacecraft have been, with the exception of going from the first model of the lunar configuration to the J Series. Like the different—between Apollo 14 and 15, those were very different vehicles. But the Shuttles were all different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you were setting up the office, you said your main focus was on getting the operation up and running then for the payload integration. Were there anything along the way—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the major discovery that I really didn't have much interest in being an administrator. I didn't want to do that, so it was pretty easy to say, \"I'm done,\" and go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a pretty important thing to recognize."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.109718983445406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very, very different. Plus it's a reusable vehicle. I guess I think that at least for a long time the Orbiters were more different from each other than any of the other spacecraft have been, with the exception of going from the first model of the lunar configuration to the J Series. Like the different—between Apollo 14 and 15, those were very different vehicles. But the Shuttles were all different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you were setting up the office, you said your main focus was on getting the operation up and running then for the payload integration. Were there anything along the way—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the major discovery that I really didn't have much interest in being an administrator. I didn't want to do that, so it was pretty easy to say, \"I'm done,\" and go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a pretty important thing to recognize."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I really didn't want to do that anymore. That was enough of that. I had started a small oil and gas development activity in about the same time frame as doing the program office integration, the payload integration, so I had that to go do. I discovered very quickly that the focus of the work at NASA, how important that was in terms of organizing my time, that it was the central pivot and then you could order everything else around it, but without a central pivot, you didn't have any ranking criteria for what you were going to do first, and I missed that, so I jumped into graduate school and ended up with a master's degree in psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting choice."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.677465537161562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the major discovery that I really didn't have much interest in being an administrator. I didn't want to do that, so it was pretty easy to say, \"I'm done,\" and go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a pretty important thing to recognize."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I really didn't want to do that anymore. That was enough of that. I had started a small oil and gas development activity in about the same time frame as doing the program office integration, the payload integration, so I had that to go do. I discovered very quickly that the focus of the work at NASA, how important that was in terms of organizing my time, that it was the central pivot and then you could order everything else around it, but without a central pivot, you didn't have any ranking criteria for what you were going to do first, and I missed that, so I jumped into graduate school and ended up with a master's degree in psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting choice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was really the way I transitioned from NASA, the NASA years to the civilian years, was via the graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You continued to work then with your oil and gas while you were going to graduate school?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3082950412906245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I really didn't want to do that anymore. That was enough of that. I had started a small oil and gas development activity in about the same time frame as doing the program office integration, the payload integration, so I had that to go do. I discovered very quickly that the focus of the work at NASA, how important that was in terms of organizing my time, that it was the central pivot and then you could order everything else around it, but without a central pivot, you didn't have any ranking criteria for what you were going to do first, and I missed that, so I jumped into graduate school and ended up with a master's degree in psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's an interesting choice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was really the way I transitioned from NASA, the NASA years to the civilian years, was via the graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You continued to work then with your oil and gas while you were going to graduate school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You still do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.009216712545138, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was really the way I transitioned from NASA, the NASA years to the civilian years, was via the graduate school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You continued to work then with your oil and gas while you were going to graduate school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You still do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still do that. I still do that. There's nothing wrong with being in oil and gas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nothing at all."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.788018569494597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You still do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still do that. I still do that. There's nothing wrong with being in oil and gas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nothing at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a nice way to play commodities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly something we all need."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.653353966105108, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still do that. I still do that. There's nothing wrong with being in oil and gas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nothing at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a nice way to play commodities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly something we all need."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you done anything else besides that along the way?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.170393295672341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a nice way to play commodities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly something we all need."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you done anything else besides that along the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The degree in psychology, which I really did as a personal development and personal interest kind of thing, turned out to be a serendipity, because that training coupled with the technical training and the operational training from NASA, set me up to do consulting in the aerospace industry. In fact, I'm still doing some of that at a low level, but I did really about ten years of being very active in the area of business development, not as a techie, not as doing space flight, but it terms of going after the business of supporting that and helping those guys.\\n\\n Predominantly that was with Rockwell local here and Rockwell in California, but it has branched out into such things as Beth Williams Techtrans International and Barrios [Technology], and some of those companies I've also worked for. In fact, I've got a job going with Joe Kerwin right now on a contract."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. So you, to some extent then, have stayed somewhat involved in the space industry then."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.633770328524823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you done anything else besides that along the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The degree in psychology, which I really did as a personal development and personal interest kind of thing, turned out to be a serendipity, because that training coupled with the technical training and the operational training from NASA, set me up to do consulting in the aerospace industry. In fact, I'm still doing some of that at a low level, but I did really about ten years of being very active in the area of business development, not as a techie, not as doing space flight, but it terms of going after the business of supporting that and helping those guys.\\n\\n Predominantly that was with Rockwell local here and Rockwell in California, but it has branched out into such things as Beth Williams Techtrans International and Barrios [Technology], and some of those companies I've also worked for. In fact, I've got a job going with Joe Kerwin right now on a contract."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. So you, to some extent then, have stayed somewhat involved in the space industry then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More with the people than with the technology, because what I do for them really is dissimilar from what I did at NASA. It combines the fact that my mom was an English teacher, with the psychology, with an interest in language. It's quite different. I always told them if I was going to do what I did before, I'd go back there and do it, it was more fun. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly. Well, looking back over your time with NASA, is there any one point that was the greatest, most challenging time for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.148633698360914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The degree in psychology, which I really did as a personal development and personal interest kind of thing, turned out to be a serendipity, because that training coupled with the technical training and the operational training from NASA, set me up to do consulting in the aerospace industry. In fact, I'm still doing some of that at a low level, but I did really about ten years of being very active in the area of business development, not as a techie, not as doing space flight, but it terms of going after the business of supporting that and helping those guys.\\n\\n Predominantly that was with Rockwell local here and Rockwell in California, but it has branched out into such things as Beth Williams Techtrans International and Barrios [Technology], and some of those companies I've also worked for. In fact, I've got a job going with Joe Kerwin right now on a contract."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. So you, to some extent then, have stayed somewhat involved in the space industry then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More with the people than with the technology, because what I do for them really is dissimilar from what I did at NASA. It combines the fact that my mom was an English teacher, with the psychology, with an interest in language. It's quite different. I always told them if I was going to do what I did before, I'd go back there and do it, it was more fun. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly. Well, looking back over your time with NASA, is there any one point that was the greatest, most challenging time for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, without a doubt it was Skylab. Without equivocation, it was Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can certainly understand why."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.720704109289905, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More with the people than with the technology, because what I do for them really is dissimilar from what I did at NASA. It combines the fact that my mom was an English teacher, with the psychology, with an interest in language. It's quite different. I always told them if I was going to do what I did before, I'd go back there and do it, it was more fun. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly. Well, looking back over your time with NASA, is there any one point that was the greatest, most challenging time for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, without a doubt it was Skylab. Without equivocation, it was Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can certainly understand why."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's one of those things that I'm sort of glad I did it, but if I'd have known I was going to have to do it and what it entailed, I wouldn't have done it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very complex program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.356337899211005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, without a doubt it was Skylab. Without equivocation, it was Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can certainly understand why."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's one of those things that I'm sort of glad I did it, but if I'd have known I was going to have to do it and what it entailed, I wouldn't have done it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very complex program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And for me, very stressful. Really, it was too many functions, too many things going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a time that was the most significant or most memorable for you, that you remember as the best or anything like that, or when you made your most significant contribution to NASA and the space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.062597665790006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's one of those things that I'm sort of glad I did it, but if I'd have known I was going to have to do it and what it entailed, I wouldn't have done it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a very complex program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And for me, very stressful. Really, it was too many functions, too many things going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a time that was the most significant or most memorable for you, that you remember as the best or anything like that, or when you made your most significant contribution to NASA and the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess I think, and it's probably a little smug, but the most significant contribution was when I decided to come here. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's a very good—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.847330739766673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And for me, very stressful. Really, it was too many functions, too many things going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a time that was the most significant or most memorable for you, that you remember as the best or anything like that, or when you made your most significant contribution to NASA and the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess I think, and it's probably a little smug, but the most significant contribution was when I decided to come here. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's a very good—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly from my standpoint that was probably the most significant step, because everything just evolved from—that was the classic fork in the road. Because some of the people I worked with in Virginia at the Naval Weapons Laboratory are still there and still doing the function that goes on there. My career and maybe even a lot of who I am would be different if I had stayed there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly would be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.608145266407415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess I think, and it's probably a little smug, but the most significant contribution was when I decided to come here. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's a very good—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly from my standpoint that was probably the most significant step, because everything just evolved from—that was the classic fork in the road. Because some of the people I worked with in Virginia at the Naval Weapons Laboratory are still there and still doing the function that goes on there. My career and maybe even a lot of who I am would be different if I had stayed there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly would be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We all have those major forks, though, even if you don't recognize them as such when you take it. Yogi said it. Remember what Yogi [Berra] said? \"When you come to the fork in a road, take it.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very true. Very true. I imagine you probably would have never guessed where that fork would lead you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.453494740452683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly from my standpoint that was probably the most significant step, because everything just evolved from—that was the classic fork in the road. Because some of the people I worked with in Virginia at the Naval Weapons Laboratory are still there and still doing the function that goes on there. My career and maybe even a lot of who I am would be different if I had stayed there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly would be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We all have those major forks, though, even if you don't recognize them as such when you take it. Yogi said it. Remember what Yogi [Berra] said? \"When you come to the fork in a road, take it.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very true. Very true. I imagine you probably would have never guessed where that fork would lead you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had not a clue. Not a clue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it certainly led you to some interesting times."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.392771933836315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We all have those major forks, though, even if you don't recognize them as such when you take it. Yogi said it. Remember what Yogi [Berra] said? \"When you come to the fork in a road, take it.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very true. Very true. I imagine you probably would have never guessed where that fork would lead you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had not a clue. Not a clue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it certainly led you to some interesting times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew it was going to be different, but that was all I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, before we conclude, I'd like to ask Sandra and Kevin if they have any questions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.436413259818128, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had not a clue. Not a clue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it certainly led you to some interesting times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew it was going to be different, but that was all I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, before we conclude, I'd like to ask Sandra and Kevin if they have any questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra or Kevin?\n\nYes, I did have a few."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.88446081459028, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra or Kevin?\n\nYes, I did have a few."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A few? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A couple."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's all right. I didn't mean to limit your questions. That was not my intent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things I was wondering about, off camera you had mentioned a few things about John [S.] Llewellyn [Jr.], for instance, and I was wondering about being a member of the Trench. It gives a little bit of the character of that group of people. I was wondering how well you fit in with that group and how that dynamic really worked while you were a member of the Trench."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:326", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.779929913445237, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To sort of follow-up on that, I think one of the arguments for sending Apollo 10 to do almost the landing, but not quite, was to further refine the mascon model, to get a better idea of what's going on. Do you think that was—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was nothing wrong with that idea, but the primary thing was to do a lunar orbit rendezvous. We hadn't done that. We'd only been there once and we had missed by a lot, so we had some serious orbit problems that needed to be demonstrated, and we didn't know how well we were going to be able to support a two-body trajectory problem. So we hadn't been able to do a full-scale test of the lunar propulsion system either, and I think that was a bigger deal than the mascons. We certainly got to add mascon at a significant level into that, but I would be hesitant to call it primary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You think then it was a necessary flight to not land that on the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. It would have been foolhardy to try to land without a safe bail-out since we hadn't done a rendezvous of the magnitude of coming off the surface and we hadn't done a full-blown propulsion test of the lunar module. I mean, we'd flown Apollo 9, but it ain't the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just one last question, also on Apollo. You had spoken earlier about the Taurus-Littrow site for Apollo 17. I know prior to this selection that Jack [Harrison H.] Schmitt and some others had toyed around with the idea of landing on the back side of the Moon. Do you have any memories of that or any thoughts of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:328", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.644366570494707, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was nothing wrong with that idea, but the primary thing was to do a lunar orbit rendezvous. We hadn't done that. We'd only been there once and we had missed by a lot, so we had some serious orbit problems that needed to be demonstrated, and we didn't know how well we were going to be able to support a two-body trajectory problem. So we hadn't been able to do a full-scale test of the lunar propulsion system either, and I think that was a bigger deal than the mascons. We certainly got to add mascon at a significant level into that, but I would be hesitant to call it primary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You think then it was a necessary flight to not land that on the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. It would have been foolhardy to try to land without a safe bail-out since we hadn't done a rendezvous of the magnitude of coming off the surface and we hadn't done a full-blown propulsion test of the lunar module. I mean, we'd flown Apollo 9, but it ain't the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just one last question, also on Apollo. You had spoken earlier about the Taurus-Littrow site for Apollo 17. I know prior to this selection that Jack [Harrison H.] Schmitt and some others had toyed around with the idea of landing on the back side of the Moon. Do you have any memories of that or any thoughts of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't have any memories, but there were lots of people that wished Jack had gotten his way, especially the people he'd beat for the senatorial race in New Mexico. Foolhardy. It was insane, as a matter of fact, that he would think that's a realistic thing to do. It implies autonomy on the part of those vehicles, and they were not autonomous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think one of the ideas was to put up some lunar satellites as a way to provide some more communication."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:330", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.60485174499412, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. It would have been foolhardy to try to land without a safe bail-out since we hadn't done a rendezvous of the magnitude of coming off the surface and we hadn't done a full-blown propulsion test of the lunar module. I mean, we'd flown Apollo 9, but it ain't the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just one last question, also on Apollo. You had spoken earlier about the Taurus-Littrow site for Apollo 17. I know prior to this selection that Jack [Harrison H.] Schmitt and some others had toyed around with the idea of landing on the back side of the Moon. Do you have any memories of that or any thoughts of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't have any memories, but there were lots of people that wished Jack had gotten his way, especially the people he'd beat for the senatorial race in New Mexico. Foolhardy. It was insane, as a matter of fact, that he would think that's a realistic thing to do. It implies autonomy on the part of those vehicles, and they were not autonomous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think one of the ideas was to put up some lunar satellites as a way to provide some more communication."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but geosynchronous satellites so that they hang off to the side, so that you've always got communication is not a trivial program in its own right. Plus you've got to get them there. Lunar orbits are not stable, by the way. They're not stable like Earth orbits are stable, because the Earth is a terrible perturbation on a lunar orbit, as is the sun because of the small size, and then the mascons are perturbations. So lunar orbits tend to change size and shape fairly dramatically on their own volition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's certainly not something that is commonly known, I don't think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:332", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.5609463833268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't have any memories, but there were lots of people that wished Jack had gotten his way, especially the people he'd beat for the senatorial race in New Mexico. Foolhardy. It was insane, as a matter of fact, that he would think that's a realistic thing to do. It implies autonomy on the part of those vehicles, and they were not autonomous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think one of the ideas was to put up some lunar satellites as a way to provide some more communication."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but geosynchronous satellites so that they hang off to the side, so that you've always got communication is not a trivial program in its own right. Plus you've got to get them there. Lunar orbits are not stable, by the way. They're not stable like Earth orbits are stable, because the Earth is a terrible perturbation on a lunar orbit, as is the sun because of the small size, and then the mascons are perturbations. So lunar orbits tend to change size and shape fairly dramatically on their own volition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's certainly not something that is commonly known, I don't think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just think about it, 10,000 miles out from the Moon, the Earth is as big a gravitational attraction as the Moon is. That's where the sphere of equal potential is. Makes a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very big difference."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:334", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.623273759252, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but geosynchronous satellites so that they hang off to the side, so that you've always got communication is not a trivial program in its own right. Plus you've got to get them there. Lunar orbits are not stable, by the way. They're not stable like Earth orbits are stable, because the Earth is a terrible perturbation on a lunar orbit, as is the sun because of the small size, and then the mascons are perturbations. So lunar orbits tend to change size and shape fairly dramatically on their own volition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's certainly not something that is commonly known, I don't think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just think about it, 10,000 miles out from the Moon, the Earth is as big a gravitational attraction as the Moon is. That's where the sphere of equal potential is. Makes a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very big difference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. Have you got any more?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that's all I had."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:336", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.80363751028, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just think about it, 10,000 miles out from the Moon, the Earth is as big a gravitational attraction as the Moon is. That's where the sphere of equal potential is. Makes a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very big difference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. Have you got any more?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that's all I had."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. That's all right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Following from Kevin's technical, I think I want to ask more about the people. When you were on some of the long missions, whether it be Skylab or Apollo and you're in mission control and there's a lot of tension going on, how did you all deal with the tension and stress? How did you break that up when you were in mission control? Or did you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:340", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.572391988, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. That's all right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Following from Kevin's technical, I think I want to ask more about the people. When you were on some of the long missions, whether it be Skylab or Apollo and you're in mission control and there's a lot of tension going on, how did you all deal with the tension and stress? How did you break that up when you were in mission control? Or did you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, in large part, the actual missions were not as stressful as the simulations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the simulations, except for some of the things we've talked about where you had the multiple failure scenario, the simulations were always multiple failure scenarios. I remember the first sim I ran as a flight director, I don't think the simulation people intended it to happen, but I lost it. I mean, I absolutely got to where I couldn't keep track of all the stuff and all that was left for me to do was get down in under the console and laugh. The missions were never that hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of all the training you'd done?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:342", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 12.858213319999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, in large part, the actual missions were not as stressful as the simulations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the simulations, except for some of the things we've talked about where you had the multiple failure scenario, the simulations were always multiple failure scenarios. I remember the first sim I ran as a flight director, I don't think the simulation people intended it to happen, but I lost it. I mean, I absolutely got to where I couldn't keep track of all the stuff and all that was left for me to do was get down in under the console and laugh. The missions were never that hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of all the training you'd done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, plus we'd already been stressed until we were almost stress non-responsive. I mean, a day of launch aborts, I mean, you were a zombie for a little while until finally a day of launch aborts was a day of launch aborts and you checked it off, I've done this, and you go on to something else.\\n\\n It was a sense of the level of competence and comfort with who we were and what we were doing. No, I don't think we did stress very much in real time. We probably had a week or so after each flight where we went through a low, but in a week we had picked up whatever was going to be next and were reengaged. That was like a dig-out process. I can remember some of that, but it was like an awareness of, you know, \"I don't really feel very good about this. Wonder what the guys are doing at work.\" [Laughter] And had to go back and do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have a couple more questions. Kind of along that same line, if you could just characterize or just talk about some of the guys that you worked with at mission control, maybe somebody that when you look back over it, you think, he was the most comical, or just funny incidents that you might have remembered from your time in mission control."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.661199999999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yes, there was some of that kind of stuff. I always had a problem with the surgeons. The surgeons were the most parochial of all the scientists. They had to have their meals on their schedule and the stool samples and the urine samples and the blood samples. It just drove us nuts with their lack of flexibility. So I'm on the console and whoever the Network [Controller] is has detected a huge explosion on the sun. I've got this huge ball of gas coming off the sun from this explosion, and they want to interrupt the Apollo telescope map and get some data on this explosion. The problem is, it's lunchtime and the doctor, he's immovable. I said, \"Doctor, I want you to listen to me. I have a technical input for you.\" I said, \"All this food you guys have got up there is a bunch of stuff. We don't have to do all that, because everybody knows that the perfect meal is the baloney sandwich. And we're going to go get that sun data,\" and we did. We had lunch after and that was no big deal.\\n\\n The next day when I came to work, there was this baloney sandwich, it must have been that long and that wide and about this much baloney and stuff on my console [Shaffer gestures]. [Laughter] So I heard about a lot about baloney sandwiches after that from the doctors and the other guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it sounds like there were ways to break up mission control."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was always a little of that going on, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That made for a lot of fun, though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One last question. This is more of a thought-provoking question just because you've been so involved with NASA for so many of the programs, not to mention the operational side, but also the managerial side. What do you feel is the best future for NASA? Where should NASA go? Should we pursue the space stations or should we pursue lunar bases or should we forge onward?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00504:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.52, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One last question. This is more of a thought-provoking question just because you've been so involved with NASA for so many of the programs, not to mention the operational side, but also the managerial side. What do you feel is the best future for NASA? Where should NASA go? Should we pursue the space stations or should we pursue lunar bases or should we forge onward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to change your question. What NASA should do is go back to being an R&D [research and development] outfit and get out of operations, out of airline operations-level stuff, and I include the Shuttle and everything like it. I include the Space Station and everything like it. They ought to build it, they ought to get it up there and hand it over to somebody that has the ability to be efficient. NASA has no ability to be efficient outside of R&D. I think they were world class in that regard. I'm concerned that they've lost it, because they get hung up in this \"bureaucracy of airline\" kinds of operations, and people make careers out of being bureaucrats. I don't care what you do, but that's the role that NASA ought to have in doing it, and they should not be the ones that decide what they're going to do. They ought to be the people that figure out how to do it and then hand it over and go do something else, because that's where their forte was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, if you'd like to ask me where I think the country should go— [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your thoughts on that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00253:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 49.42938485872797, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn’t a very sophisticated vehicle, as you well know. He had a hand controller that gave him some rate commands and position commands. He had a periscope and a few things like that, but it really wasn’t much except the radios and, as I said, we didn’t have instrumentation. The KSC guys always ran off with that. We had flown the chimps before. Yes, we flew the chimps before Glenn. But there wasn’t much involved. It was a three-orbit thing, and it was mainly the rocket shooting you up there and the retro to get you down. So there wasn’t much, but somebody had to do it, and I was the only guy there that was willing to do it.\\n\\n For some of the Mercurys, the later Mercurys, we had pretty extensive testing but I don’t where we stopped the guys from pulling the instrumentation from us all the time, but McDonnell was getting tired supplying VCOs. We had voltage-controlled oscillators for instrumentation in those days, and every week we were shipping three and four of them to the Cape because they wrecked them. McDonnell was getting upset about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s be understandable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we used to laugh about John Glenn. You know, he ran the beaches down at Cocoa Beach [Florida] a lot, and the big story at McDonnell was he wasn’t running to do anything except lose the weight that he had from all those steak and eggs breakfasts on the missions that didn’t go. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While the missions were up, Mercury, Gemini, and even into Apollo, because you were at the resident office there at McDonnell and then later at Grumman, what did you do during the missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I used to go and be in Houston and visit the MER, the Mission Evaluation Room, and just see how things were going there. Sometimes I went over to the viewing room and talked to the—well, one of the guys that I used to talk a lot with was Umberto—who wrote the book, The Body Clock."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know who you’re talking about, but I’m not placing the name."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00253:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 44.18609941409861, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn’t ever fair."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had there ever been any planning on your side with Grumman? Had there even been any talks, any testing of the LM ever filling a role like it did on Apollo 13?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that I know of. We did a lot of what-ifs, but mostly for other purposes. You know, what if you landed on a rock? What if you landed on a hillside? We did a lot of what-ifs. In fact, I got a call from George Low one day, and he asked me how did I get along with Jim [James A.] Chamberlin, and I said, “Fine. I’ve known him for a long time, and we get along fine.”\\n\\n He said, “Well, make an office for him up there and make all of his interview arrangements. I’m going to send him up there to do safety review of the lunar module. It’s going to be an overview. It’s going to be in addition to everything else. But I just want him to take an independent look.”\\n\\n So, yes, we did have a case like that, but I don’t think we ever expected to push the CSM the way it happened. But it shows the flexibility of the mission controllers, and it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It shows that the good engineering and the safety that the LM did end up having."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the last thing that Jim [James A.] Lovell did before he left the Aquarius, take the dive into the ocean, he said, was to reach back and grab a piece of the netting. I don’t know if you ever heard that, but he reached back and grabbed—we had netting so that if they dropped something, it wouldn’t go behind the panels, and he reached back and grabbed a piece of the netting. I have a piece of it on a little piece of cardboard where he glued it down, signed it, and sent it to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really nice."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00253:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 28.96740163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you’re right. They were people to ride the river with, and it’s a shame it got off to such a bad start, but I’m sure it was just they didn’t understand Grumman the way some of us did, and the people that were working and supervising them just weren’t good managers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly is a challenging program all throughout. Looking back over your career with NASA, what would you say, throughout all these programs, that was your biggest challenge, and then also what was your most significant accomplishment, do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think the biggest challenge was the lunar module. It was in such bad shape that just pulling it off—if it weren’t, as I said in the speech on the anniversary of Apollo 10, if it weren’t for Walter Burke and Mr. Mac, we never would have made it on time. Those guys coming through for me was outstanding. But I knew Mr. Mac well, and when I said I was in trouble, apparently he knew I meant it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to just ask Kevin real quickly if he has any questions, and then that’ll be about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did one or two. One of the things you talked about several times is testing and the role of testing, the importance of it. For all the programs, you got a certain degree of testing going on at the plant, whether that be St. Louis or if that’s in Bethpage or wherever. Then you’ve got another level of testing going on down at the Cape. I understand that there were issues in terms of how much testing to do where, and even if these sort of different levels of testing were necessary, could you do them all at the plant or whatever."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00253:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a real, real blow when we saw those sled tests. Yes, but I want him to tell you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay.\n\nWell, we’ll be sure to ask him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Anything else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, those are all the question I had. Thank you.\n\nThank you very much for coming and talking with us and sharing your experiences."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was very interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00253:74", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Anything else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, those are all the question I had. Thank you.\n\nThank you very much for coming and talking with us and sharing your experiences."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was very interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole business has been interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.521848949039015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m a mechanical engineer by training. Most of my career I’ve been doing integration and test, I&T we call it, for spacecraft assembly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You work primarily out of Goddard. Were you still working [at] Goddard in 2014? Or did you have a chance to come down here and work with the folks at JSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’ve been at Goddard for 20 years now, as a contractor. Then at the end of 2014 when I transitioned to the OTIS I&T Manager role, I did start traveling quite extensively to JSC to support a lot of the setup and the preliminary tests and then the final tests that we did with the OTIS assembly there. I think my first trip down there was in January of 2015 and probably I was there about close to half-time for the next three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which company do you work for, if you don’t mind me asking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I work for a small company right now called G&N Corporation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is one company I have not heard about in terms of their role in the test. Can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve heard about Ball [Aerospace] and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.13538772115446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’ve been at Goddard for 20 years now, as a contractor. Then at the end of 2014 when I transitioned to the OTIS I&T Manager role, I did start traveling quite extensively to JSC to support a lot of the setup and the preliminary tests and then the final tests that we did with the OTIS assembly there. I think my first trip down there was in January of 2015 and probably I was there about close to half-time for the next three years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which company do you work for, if you don’t mind me asking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I work for a small company right now called G&N Corporation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is one company I have not heard about in terms of their role in the test. Can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve heard about Ball [Aerospace] and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re a very small company. I think we have about five people supporting this project but in various roles. We’re more of a contracting support company I guess you’d say. We don’t have a specific hardware role on the project. I’m the only one that works integration and test. We have several other people in systems engineering with James Webb Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This morning I was looking at your e-mail, so I thought, “Oh, I’m curious about that.” I’ve talked to a number of people from Harris and Ball and some of the other contractors but not your company, so I wanted to check with you on that. When you first came down to JSC what was the status of Building 32 at that point? Was the building ready for testing, or was there still a lot of work that still needed to be done?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 22.372653023504952, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I work for a small company right now called G&N Corporation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is one company I have not heard about in terms of their role in the test. Can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve heard about Ball [Aerospace] and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re a very small company. I think we have about five people supporting this project but in various roles. We’re more of a contracting support company I guess you’d say. We don’t have a specific hardware role on the project. I’m the only one that works integration and test. We have several other people in systems engineering with James Webb Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This morning I was looking at your e-mail, so I thought, “Oh, I’m curious about that.” I’ve talked to a number of people from Harris and Ball and some of the other contractors but not your company, so I wanted to check with you on that. When you first came down to JSC what was the status of Building 32 at that point? Was the building ready for testing, or was there still a lot of work that still needed to be done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came down a lot of the prep work on the facility was done. The clean room was assembled. The chamber was modified and operational. The new cryo system was installed in the chamber. When I came down, we were bringing test hardware down to check out all the work they had done. I came down [in January of ’15], right when we had a full-scale simulated test unit we called pathfinder. We ran several tests with it to verify both that we could test something that was very similar to James Webb Telescope at those temperatures and then secondly that the facility that we were using was capable of doing those tests. That’s what happened for probably the next two years, a series of pathfinder tests that we conducted down in the JSC facility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role in preparing for OGSE [Optical Ground Support Equipment]-1 and 2 and also the thermal test that was done? You said you do integration and testing. What does that involve?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.98654406414385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The performance of the tests I was involved with but not necessarily overall lead. I was more the lead of getting the test article and the facility ready to perform the test and then after the test deconfiguring the test article and the facility. In that part where I was more directly leading there was—oh, boy, it’s hard to say how many people. People would fly out. A team from Ball would fly in. They would configure their hardware or their mirrors, and then they would leave. Another team would come in.\\n\\n There was teams coming in and going for their little pieces all the time. The Harris team was there for the facility and the test hardware setup. They stayed the whole time. If you add up all the folks that were involved it was 200 or 300 probably. At any given time, there could have been 50 to 60 on site, at our peak time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were preparing to get OTIS into the chamber. Were you here when she arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of that day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was one of the more challenging days I had when I was there. I’m trying to remember what all happened, but it was quite a—coordinating the transportation team, our integration and test team, and facility teams, I remember it being a real challenge and a very long day. Probably one of the longest more challenging days I had when I was down there.\\n\\n I guess just the pressure of the fact that we [completed] two years of preparation. Here it is. I think everyone was a little on edge and tense. We ran into some pretty small problems, but people reacted, I guess, in a way that was unexpected. I guess everyone was a little bit nervous and excited at the same time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall what happened? You mentioned it was relatively small potatoes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.87393784904872, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of that day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was one of the more challenging days I had when I was there. I’m trying to remember what all happened, but it was quite a—coordinating the transportation team, our integration and test team, and facility teams, I remember it being a real challenge and a very long day. Probably one of the longest more challenging days I had when I was down there.\\n\\n I guess just the pressure of the fact that we [completed] two years of preparation. Here it is. I think everyone was a little on edge and tense. We ran into some pretty small problems, but people reacted, I guess, in a way that was unexpected. I guess everyone was a little bit nervous and excited at the same time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall what happened? You mentioned it was relatively small potatoes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Moving the container into the clean room, the air bearings that were floating it got hung up at one point. It required just a few adjustments. The fact that this container with the flight hardware in it was stuck for maybe 15 minutes, wasn’t long, but people got really excited about that. The team worked through it. It was a long day. Some of the folks that were responsible for lifting the flight telescope out of the container and getting it onto the turnover fixture where we did a lot of the integration activity, those folks were coming up on the end of a long day, where they had to be relieved. We were debating whether we’d continue that day or come back the next day. There was a lot of negotiating between different groups: the transportation group, the mechanical handling group, [the facility team], and the ground support equipment group.\\n\\n It doesn’t sound like a big deal now, but it was a very stressful day, one of my more stressful days there as I recall. It got better. It got much better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Things can be stressful. When you look back sometimes you think, “Oh, that really wasn’t a big deal.” I wasn’t in your shoes, but I can imagine it must have been stressful."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.02649389751161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was. I was originally going to be part of the test team. I had been part of the test team for the pathfinder test as on-shift test director. It had been quite a long flow, and I took the time to take a break during the test because I knew that we would be picking up again with a pretty heavy activity afterward. I was not part of the test team that ran the test. I did monitor remotely what I could. At the same time I was starting to plan for the deintegration flow at JSC and our flow after arrival at Northrop Grumman. A lot of planning was done at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you watching the weather? Any concerns about the hurricane that showed up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I was watching a lot. I had originally been asked to be part of the rideout team if the hurricane came, so I had gone through some of the training and some of the medical screening required to be on that team. So always an interest, and kept a close eye, and [I] was fascinated with what happened and how everything worked out so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it’s a pretty amazing story, I think, that things worked out and everything went well in spite of the weather, in spite of Mother Nature."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, it is incredible. Incredible. We had done so much planning for what we would do, and it was good that we did that planning. What actually happened in reality was a little different than anyone predicted. It wasn’t the classic ramping up at the levels of alert and then the facility being closed. It happened in a very different fashion than I think is normal for hurricanes. Right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so. I don’t even remember the Center telling us to start preparing for the hurricane, it just sort of came up and then we were closed. Were you here for the last couple of days of the test? Or when did you come back to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.1405487750129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I was watching a lot. I had originally been asked to be part of the rideout team if the hurricane came, so I had gone through some of the training and some of the medical screening required to be on that team. So always an interest, and kept a close eye, and [I] was fascinated with what happened and how everything worked out so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it’s a pretty amazing story, I think, that things worked out and everything went well in spite of the weather, in spite of Mother Nature."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, it is incredible. Incredible. We had done so much planning for what we would do, and it was good that we did that planning. What actually happened in reality was a little different than anyone predicted. It wasn’t the classic ramping up at the levels of alert and then the facility being closed. It happened in a very different fashion than I think is normal for hurricanes. Right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so. I don’t even remember the Center telling us to start preparing for the hurricane, it just sort of came up and then we were closed. Were you here for the last couple of days of the test? Or when did you come back to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came back when the door opened, and we could start preparing to deconfigure in the chamber for the rollout. There was some troubleshooting on a couple issues that had to happen for a few days before we could actually deconfigure. I was there, and we were laying out a plan for the teams on what we were going to do once we got clearance to go in and break the configuration. I don’t remember the date I got there. The chamber was back at ambient pressure and temperature, [however] the door wasn’t open yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a momentous occasion for the team? Was there any sort of event to mark that moment or that day?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.267276416681002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, it is incredible. Incredible. We had done so much planning for what we would do, and it was good that we did that planning. What actually happened in reality was a little different than anyone predicted. It wasn’t the classic ramping up at the levels of alert and then the facility being closed. It happened in a very different fashion than I think is normal for hurricanes. Right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so. I don’t even remember the Center telling us to start preparing for the hurricane, it just sort of came up and then we were closed. Were you here for the last couple of days of the test? Or when did you come back to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came back when the door opened, and we could start preparing to deconfigure in the chamber for the rollout. There was some troubleshooting on a couple issues that had to happen for a few days before we could actually deconfigure. I was there, and we were laying out a plan for the teams on what we were going to do once we got clearance to go in and break the configuration. I don’t remember the date I got there. The chamber was back at ambient pressure and temperature, [however] the door wasn’t open yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a momentous occasion for the team? Was there any sort of event to mark that moment or that day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there was an event really. I think the bigger event in my mind was when we put it in the container to leave JSC, because that was really the sense of this is over. It was done. All that planning and it’s done. It’s just hard to imagine. It was three years, but it seemed like it was much less than that because it was nonstop for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you guys to take her out and get her ready to go out to California?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.074751574090001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came back when the door opened, and we could start preparing to deconfigure in the chamber for the rollout. There was some troubleshooting on a couple issues that had to happen for a few days before we could actually deconfigure. I was there, and we were laying out a plan for the teams on what we were going to do once we got clearance to go in and break the configuration. I don’t remember the date I got there. The chamber was back at ambient pressure and temperature, [however] the door wasn’t open yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a momentous occasion for the team? Was there any sort of event to mark that moment or that day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there was an event really. I think the bigger event in my mind was when we put it in the container to leave JSC, because that was really the sense of this is over. It was done. All that planning and it’s done. It’s just hard to imagine. It was three years, but it seemed like it was much less than that because it was nonstop for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you guys to take her out and get her ready to go out to California?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to think back. There was some issues identified during the test that had to be investigated to make sure they weren’t real issues and things that needed to be reworked. Once we were given the go-ahead to move on that, everything was clear and good to go, it was about six weeks. I think it was about six weeks. That included the teardown in the chamber. It went, I think, a little quicker coming out. The shifts weren’t quite as long and second shift [wasn’t always used] either. We turned it around. I know it was late January when we were ready to put it in the shipping container. I believe it was in early/mid December when we got the clear to start deconfiguring, getting ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was she brought to JSC and then also returned back out to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]? Is there a special convoy or truck?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.638612860100001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there was an event really. I think the bigger event in my mind was when we put it in the container to leave JSC, because that was really the sense of this is over. It was done. All that planning and it’s done. It’s just hard to imagine. It was three years, but it seemed like it was much less than that because it was nonstop for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take you guys to take her out and get her ready to go out to California?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to think back. There was some issues identified during the test that had to be investigated to make sure they weren’t real issues and things that needed to be reworked. Once we were given the go-ahead to move on that, everything was clear and good to go, it was about six weeks. I think it was about six weeks. That included the teardown in the chamber. It went, I think, a little quicker coming out. The shifts weren’t quite as long and second shift [wasn’t always used] either. We turned it around. I know it was late January when we were ready to put it in the shipping container. I believe it was in early/mid December when we got the clear to start deconfiguring, getting ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was she brought to JSC and then also returned back out to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]? Is there a special convoy or truck?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, there’s a large shipping container used to transport it. The shipping container is designed to be pulled down the road by a large tractor. It is a convoy to Ellington. They go basically—I forget the names of the roads down there. They go to the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory] facility in the back of Ellington Airfield, and they go across the airfield from there. There’s convoy support personnel, and there was police escorts as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of that convoy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.154014289000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to think back. There was some issues identified during the test that had to be investigated to make sure they weren’t real issues and things that needed to be reworked. Once we were given the go-ahead to move on that, everything was clear and good to go, it was about six weeks. I think it was about six weeks. That included the teardown in the chamber. It went, I think, a little quicker coming out. The shifts weren’t quite as long and second shift [wasn’t always used] either. We turned it around. I know it was late January when we were ready to put it in the shipping container. I believe it was in early/mid December when we got the clear to start deconfiguring, getting ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was she brought to JSC and then also returned back out to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]? Is there a special convoy or truck?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, there’s a large shipping container used to transport it. The shipping container is designed to be pulled down the road by a large tractor. It is a convoy to Ellington. They go basically—I forget the names of the roads down there. They go to the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory] facility in the back of Ellington Airfield, and they go across the airfield from there. There’s convoy support personnel, and there was police escorts as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of that convoy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not part of that convoy. We have a separate transportation team that did the moves. I was there that night just to see it off, and I was at Ellington Airfield and watched it get loaded onto the plane, but I was not a direct part of the convoy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of her leaving? Was there any sort of relief that you had, like this stage has been complete, things went well, and happy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3933492100000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, there’s a large shipping container used to transport it. The shipping container is designed to be pulled down the road by a large tractor. It is a convoy to Ellington. They go basically—I forget the names of the roads down there. They go to the NBL [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory] facility in the back of Ellington Airfield, and they go across the airfield from there. There’s convoy support personnel, and there was police escorts as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of that convoy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not part of that convoy. We have a separate transportation team that did the moves. I was there that night just to see it off, and I was at Ellington Airfield and watched it get loaded onto the plane, but I was not a direct part of the convoy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of her leaving? Was there any sort of relief that you had, like this stage has been complete, things went well, and happy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very relieved, the sense of responsibility and the sense of ownership was overwhelming at times. It was very relieving to see it on to the next phase. It was somewhat bittersweet as well.\\n\\n I had worked pretty closely with a lot of folks down there for three years, and some of those folks I wasn’t going to see a lot or at least on an everyday basis if ever again in some cases. Working that long and that many hours with making an accomplishment like that, you develop some really close working relationships. A lot of people were saying goodbye that you may not see again or work with again, so it was very bittersweet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what do you think was your most significant contribution to this effort?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I guess I can’t. Not one specific. I’ve told Mark [F.] Voyton a couple times that the biggest challenges were often getting the people working together and working toward the same end. The people issues and some of the corporate culture issues, getting different corporate cultures with one set of paperwork and another set of paperwork and different management systems—getting everyone working on the same page was the biggest challenge overall in my mind. We had a lot of smart people that could solve technical problems. It was just more getting the team working together with each other or doing their separate parts and making sure the parts came together at the right time. That was by far the biggest challenge in my mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good point. All these different contractors working together and then also civil servants."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, and everyone coming from a different perspective on what’s the most important thing, what’s not the most important, or what we need to do first, or whose way of doing it [is best]. Everyone’s way works, but whose way is better and whose way is not? In some ways, “This is the ‘OTIS way,’” and we’re going to all try to work around that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you describe the “OTIS way”? I’m just curious since you mention that. Is there a way you would characterize that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don’t know how I would describe it. I guess we developed a way of working that worked for us. I don’t know how to say [it]. We tried to use a modified Goddard system, if you will, of doing things that included, as best we could, the best practices and the requirements of everyone’s individual company or organization. Certain organizations have contractual requirements to do things a certain way, and others have best practices and safety requirements. We tried to meld them all together. I guess there’s really no way to describe the “OTIS way” other than it was a meld of a lot of different organizations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That brings to mind another question. There’s always competition between Centers. You’re from Goddard, working at Johnson. Was there any tension between the two Centers over the test, who was in control?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, and everyone coming from a different perspective on what’s the most important thing, what’s not the most important, or what we need to do first, or whose way of doing it [is best]. Everyone’s way works, but whose way is better and whose way is not? In some ways, “This is the ‘OTIS way,’” and we’re going to all try to work around that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you describe the “OTIS way”? I’m just curious since you mention that. Is there a way you would characterize that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don’t know how I would describe it. I guess we developed a way of working that worked for us. I don’t know how to say [it]. We tried to use a modified Goddard system, if you will, of doing things that included, as best we could, the best practices and the requirements of everyone’s individual company or organization. Certain organizations have contractual requirements to do things a certain way, and others have best practices and safety requirements. We tried to meld them all together. I guess there’s really no way to describe the “OTIS way” other than it was a meld of a lot of different organizations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That brings to mind another question. There’s always competition between Centers. You’re from Goddard, working at Johnson. Was there any tension between the two Centers over the test, who was in control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there was a little. I tried to stay below all that if you will and more working the real-time issues on the floor, but I think those issues worked themselves out. In some cases I believe a lot of that happened before I was involved. The chamber modification and the clean room assembly was done when I got there. A lot of those, I guess, agreements were made. I sensed some tension at times, but I think it definitely waned. I think at least at my level close to the floor and down it all melded together pretty well in the end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s all the questions I had today, but I wondered if there was anything that you wanted to talk about or any anecdotes that you wanted to share about your involvement."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don’t know how I would describe it. I guess we developed a way of working that worked for us. I don’t know how to say [it]. We tried to use a modified Goddard system, if you will, of doing things that included, as best we could, the best practices and the requirements of everyone’s individual company or organization. Certain organizations have contractual requirements to do things a certain way, and others have best practices and safety requirements. We tried to meld them all together. I guess there’s really no way to describe the “OTIS way” other than it was a meld of a lot of different organizations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That brings to mind another question. There’s always competition between Centers. You’re from Goddard, working at Johnson. Was there any tension between the two Centers over the test, who was in control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there was a little. I tried to stay below all that if you will and more working the real-time issues on the floor, but I think those issues worked themselves out. In some cases I believe a lot of that happened before I was involved. The chamber modification and the clean room assembly was done when I got there. A lot of those, I guess, agreements were made. I sensed some tension at times, but I think it definitely waned. I think at least at my level close to the floor and down it all melded together pretty well in the end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s all the questions I had today, but I wondered if there was anything that you wanted to talk about or any anecdotes that you wanted to share about your involvement."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I guess I don’t have anything to add. It was a very enjoyable part of my career, and I’m glad I did it. It was a challenge being on the road so much. I had never traveled much throughout my career. That was a challenge. But it was very rewarding, and I’m glad I did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You go out to California now and then and still working on the telescope?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00514:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I guess I don’t have anything to add. It was a very enjoyable part of my career, and I’m glad I did it. It was a challenge being on the road so much. I had never traveled much throughout my career. That was a challenge. But it was very rewarding, and I’m glad I did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You go out to California now and then and still working on the telescope?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. I’m working on finishing up some tests at OTIS level before it gets mated to the spacecraft and becomes the James Webb Telescope Observatory [which] is what they call it at the end. We’re finishing up work we have to do at the OTIS level, so I’m there one or two weeks a month right now until they integrate with the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Still traveling, but getting a little more used to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much for your time today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.182573180514396, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you really felt the excitement. Can you share with me what it was like to know that they landed on the Moon and you were about to really be a part of all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have a television, but we had a radio so we were listening to it. We were trying to look out the window. I remember that, trying to look out the window, to see if we could see the Moon, “Can we see them up there?” Everybody was sitting there, hovered around the radio waiting for them to land. We were just glued. It’s like frozen in time. “Here we are. Are they going to get it? Are they going to land on there? Are they going to be able to take off?” That was the other concern. Once they land can they come back?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were part of the group that saw them when they were put in this facility. Tell me about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t actually get to see them. They were brought here by their little trailers. The whole west side over here near the dock was barricaded and guarded with all kinds of security. They rolled up the doors and they brought those trailers in. They were housed in here, and unless you had to bring something into the conference room during one of the meetings you didn’t see them. You did not see them until afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it that way for all of the Apollo missions? Or was it just for the first?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.758414645015995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have a television, but we had a radio so we were listening to it. We were trying to look out the window. I remember that, trying to look out the window, to see if we could see the Moon, “Can we see them up there?” Everybody was sitting there, hovered around the radio waiting for them to land. We were just glued. It’s like frozen in time. “Here we are. Are they going to get it? Are they going to land on there? Are they going to be able to take off?” That was the other concern. Once they land can they come back?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were part of the group that saw them when they were put in this facility. Tell me about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t actually get to see them. They were brought here by their little trailers. The whole west side over here near the dock was barricaded and guarded with all kinds of security. They rolled up the doors and they brought those trailers in. They were housed in here, and unless you had to bring something into the conference room during one of the meetings you didn’t see them. You did not see them until afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it that way for all of the Apollo missions? Or was it just for the first?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, all of the Apollo missions. They did all of them the same way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting, that they were in the building but so far away. So close yet so far away."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.509349605573327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t actually get to see them. They were brought here by their little trailers. The whole west side over here near the dock was barricaded and guarded with all kinds of security. They rolled up the doors and they brought those trailers in. They were housed in here, and unless you had to bring something into the conference room during one of the meetings you didn’t see them. You did not see them until afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it that way for all of the Apollo missions? Or was it just for the first?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, all of the Apollo missions. They did all of them the same way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting, that they were in the building but so far away. So close yet so far away."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. But beforehand when they were doing all their medical testing and bringing their samples—which invariably they always brought at lunchtime. It’s one way to stay thin, [having to handle those] stool and urine samples at lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not very appetizing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.121499561748138, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, all of the Apollo missions. They did all of them the same way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting, that they were in the building but so far away. So close yet so far away."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. But beforehand when they were doing all their medical testing and bringing their samples—which invariably they always brought at lunchtime. It’s one way to stay thin, [having to handle those] stool and urine samples at lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not very appetizing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They [the astronauts] were interesting, they were funny. They knew all the people that I had worked with so they’d drop off [their samples] and then go visit them. They weren’t like now, [which is] unless you’re working one-on-one with them you don’t get an opportunity to really see them. Occasionally they’ll come by, in the last nine, ten years, come over to get their blood drawn. But generally that would be done over at the Flight Medicine Clinic over in Building 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it was a smaller, more of a close-knit community back then."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.246110624164599, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. But beforehand when they were doing all their medical testing and bringing their samples—which invariably they always brought at lunchtime. It’s one way to stay thin, [having to handle those] stool and urine samples at lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not very appetizing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They [the astronauts] were interesting, they were funny. They knew all the people that I had worked with so they’d drop off [their samples] and then go visit them. They weren’t like now, [which is] unless you’re working one-on-one with them you don’t get an opportunity to really see them. Occasionally they’ll come by, in the last nine, ten years, come over to get their blood drawn. But generally that would be done over at the Flight Medicine Clinic over in Building 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it was a smaller, more of a close-knit community back then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was more close-knit. Everybody looked out for one another. At the time, I can remember Rufus [R.] Hessberg [Space Medicine Director] had come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.]. They were so adamant about us staying in the building in case anything happened, or we were needed for something, or the phones. They would go out and get us hamburgers. There weren’t a lot of local areas for eating as there are now. When I first started there was nothing but fields surrounding the Center. You drove to Highway 3 and NASA [Road] 1, up to the little stop sign, made your turn, and there was nothing until you got to NASA.\\n\\n They had the old Nassau Bay Hilton [hotel], which they tore down, on the corner. It had a little cafeteria. Right down from it there was a fish and chips place, then one hamburger stand. I don’t even remember what kind of hamburger place it was. There weren’t a lot of places the way there is now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you had planned to go to Lamar University. Did you live in Beaumont at the time or were you living in the immediate area?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.162345137960665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They [the astronauts] were interesting, they were funny. They knew all the people that I had worked with so they’d drop off [their samples] and then go visit them. They weren’t like now, [which is] unless you’re working one-on-one with them you don’t get an opportunity to really see them. Occasionally they’ll come by, in the last nine, ten years, come over to get their blood drawn. But generally that would be done over at the Flight Medicine Clinic over in Building 8."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it was a smaller, more of a close-knit community back then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was more close-knit. Everybody looked out for one another. At the time, I can remember Rufus [R.] Hessberg [Space Medicine Director] had come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.]. They were so adamant about us staying in the building in case anything happened, or we were needed for something, or the phones. They would go out and get us hamburgers. There weren’t a lot of local areas for eating as there are now. When I first started there was nothing but fields surrounding the Center. You drove to Highway 3 and NASA [Road] 1, up to the little stop sign, made your turn, and there was nothing until you got to NASA.\\n\\n They had the old Nassau Bay Hilton [hotel], which they tore down, on the corner. It had a little cafeteria. Right down from it there was a fish and chips place, then one hamburger stand. I don’t even remember what kind of hamburger place it was. There weren’t a lot of places the way there is now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you had planned to go to Lamar University. Did you live in Beaumont at the time or were you living in the immediate area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived outside the area. I lived in Groves [Texas], it’s in between Beaumont and Port Arthur. They call it the Golden Triangle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you moved here once you got your full-time job and decided to stay full-time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.06927237551185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was more close-knit. Everybody looked out for one another. At the time, I can remember Rufus [R.] Hessberg [Space Medicine Director] had come down from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.]. They were so adamant about us staying in the building in case anything happened, or we were needed for something, or the phones. They would go out and get us hamburgers. There weren’t a lot of local areas for eating as there are now. When I first started there was nothing but fields surrounding the Center. You drove to Highway 3 and NASA [Road] 1, up to the little stop sign, made your turn, and there was nothing until you got to NASA.\\n\\n They had the old Nassau Bay Hilton [hotel], which they tore down, on the corner. It had a little cafeteria. Right down from it there was a fish and chips place, then one hamburger stand. I don’t even remember what kind of hamburger place it was. There weren’t a lot of places the way there is now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you had planned to go to Lamar University. Did you live in Beaumont at the time or were you living in the immediate area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived outside the area. I lived in Groves [Texas], it’s in between Beaumont and Port Arthur. They call it the Golden Triangle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you moved here once you got your full-time job and decided to stay full-time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I moved up here when I applied and they said, “You’ve got the job. We need you to come up here and take your test.” I thought oh, maybe I can just fail it, because I really don’t want to leave Groves. I thought, “Well, it’s only for the summer,” so okay. I was going to stay with my aunt, then go back. Then when I got talked into staying, it was like “get your own place.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That had to be quite an adventure back in the ‘60s, being a single woman and getting your own place in the area."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.076969306124278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived outside the area. I lived in Groves [Texas], it’s in between Beaumont and Port Arthur. They call it the Golden Triangle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you moved here once you got your full-time job and decided to stay full-time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I moved up here when I applied and they said, “You’ve got the job. We need you to come up here and take your test.” I thought oh, maybe I can just fail it, because I really don’t want to leave Groves. I thought, “Well, it’s only for the summer,” so okay. I was going to stay with my aunt, then go back. Then when I got talked into staying, it was like “get your own place.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That had to be quite an adventure back in the ‘60s, being a single woman and getting your own place in the area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And fresh out of high school. When you’re used to being in a small community, outside of traveling out of state to go see relatives—there was not much being away from home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There weren’t a lot of places to stay here either."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.196632562360309, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I moved up here when I applied and they said, “You’ve got the job. We need you to come up here and take your test.” I thought oh, maybe I can just fail it, because I really don’t want to leave Groves. I thought, “Well, it’s only for the summer,” so okay. I was going to stay with my aunt, then go back. Then when I got talked into staying, it was like “get your own place.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That had to be quite an adventure back in the ‘60s, being a single woman and getting your own place in the area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And fresh out of high school. When you’re used to being in a small community, outside of traveling out of state to go see relatives—there was not much being away from home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There weren’t a lot of places to stay here either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Families didn’t have multiple cars like they do now. The family had one vehicle, and that was it. Families didn’t have all the air conditioning the way they do now either. There’s a lot of changes just in the air factor that people don’t realize, they take for granted. There wasn’t all this electronics. Children’s imaginations were always challenged, because they had to invent things to play with and go outside. They were outside running and doing a lot more than what they do now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you live? Did you end up in the Clear Lake area?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.218480624844787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And fresh out of high school. When you’re used to being in a small community, outside of traveling out of state to go see relatives—there was not much being away from home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There weren’t a lot of places to stay here either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Families didn’t have multiple cars like they do now. The family had one vehicle, and that was it. Families didn’t have all the air conditioning the way they do now either. There’s a lot of changes just in the air factor that people don’t realize, they take for granted. There wasn’t all this electronics. Children’s imaginations were always challenged, because they had to invent things to play with and go outside. They were outside running and doing a lot more than what they do now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you live? Did you end up in the Clear Lake area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My aunt lived in Dickinson. I moved to apartments over by the [William P.] Hobby Airport because that was the airport at the time. It wasn’t that far to drive down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t start working in Building 37, you started at Ellington. When did you move?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.13164513871643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Families didn’t have multiple cars like they do now. The family had one vehicle, and that was it. Families didn’t have all the air conditioning the way they do now either. There’s a lot of changes just in the air factor that people don’t realize, they take for granted. There wasn’t all this electronics. Children’s imaginations were always challenged, because they had to invent things to play with and go outside. They were outside running and doing a lot more than what they do now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you live? Did you end up in the Clear Lake area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My aunt lived in Dickinson. I moved to apartments over by the [William P.] Hobby Airport because that was the airport at the time. It wasn’t that far to drive down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t start working in Building 37, you started at Ellington. When did you move?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Ellington we were in two buildings, 341 and 343. Then as the Center started to build I moved into Building 16. I was there for maybe six or seven months then I moved to Building 37."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You talked briefly about how the building has changed because some of the labs have been combined. Can you share with me other ways that the building has changed physically, and with personnel? I’m thinking that when you first came there wasn’t as much diversity as you have now."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.146272376351588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My aunt lived in Dickinson. I moved to apartments over by the [William P.] Hobby Airport because that was the airport at the time. It wasn’t that far to drive down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t start working in Building 37, you started at Ellington. When did you move?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Ellington we were in two buildings, 341 and 343. Then as the Center started to build I moved into Building 16. I was there for maybe six or seven months then I moved to Building 37."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You talked briefly about how the building has changed because some of the labs have been combined. Can you share with me other ways that the building has changed physically, and with personnel? I’m thinking that when you first came there wasn’t as much diversity as you have now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They built the building up by knocking out some of the barrier walls, because to get into this quarantine section where we’re at now there was one entrance. There was that same entrance, exit to get back out. You could not go down the hall and go all the way to the end of the building. If you went further from the lobby down to the next main hallway, that was the way to get into where all of the hard labs that received the lunar material to do their testing. You had to don your clothes, to get into all your lab gear, and then that was the way to exit back. There was a guard posted there.\\n\\n Of course if you pierced a glove or any of that, we had a big system within the building where there were these big red buttons that were punched for the alarm signal. You were told when you worked in this building if you ever heard those alarms, the building will be sealed. You would not exit until the quarantine period was over, for the sake of we do not know what we’re bringing back. If plants are growing very well, because we had a plant lab, then what else is in the soil? We didn’t know at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everything was new."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.273635973723986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Ellington we were in two buildings, 341 and 343. Then as the Center started to build I moved into Building 16. I was there for maybe six or seven months then I moved to Building 37."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You talked briefly about how the building has changed because some of the labs have been combined. Can you share with me other ways that the building has changed physically, and with personnel? I’m thinking that when you first came there wasn’t as much diversity as you have now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They built the building up by knocking out some of the barrier walls, because to get into this quarantine section where we’re at now there was one entrance. There was that same entrance, exit to get back out. You could not go down the hall and go all the way to the end of the building. If you went further from the lobby down to the next main hallway, that was the way to get into where all of the hard labs that received the lunar material to do their testing. You had to don your clothes, to get into all your lab gear, and then that was the way to exit back. There was a guard posted there.\\n\\n Of course if you pierced a glove or any of that, we had a big system within the building where there were these big red buttons that were punched for the alarm signal. You were told when you worked in this building if you ever heard those alarms, the building will be sealed. You would not exit until the quarantine period was over, for the sake of we do not know what we’re bringing back. If plants are growing very well, because we had a plant lab, then what else is in the soil? We didn’t know at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everything was new."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was interesting. I had two small sons, so [I remember thinking that if something happened] they’ll just have to have family come take care of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask. That’s quite a commitment to make, to work in a building that you may be here for weeks if they had to seal the building."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.52626219302665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They built the building up by knocking out some of the barrier walls, because to get into this quarantine section where we’re at now there was one entrance. There was that same entrance, exit to get back out. You could not go down the hall and go all the way to the end of the building. If you went further from the lobby down to the next main hallway, that was the way to get into where all of the hard labs that received the lunar material to do their testing. You had to don your clothes, to get into all your lab gear, and then that was the way to exit back. There was a guard posted there.\\n\\n Of course if you pierced a glove or any of that, we had a big system within the building where there were these big red buttons that were punched for the alarm signal. You were told when you worked in this building if you ever heard those alarms, the building will be sealed. You would not exit until the quarantine period was over, for the sake of we do not know what we’re bringing back. If plants are growing very well, because we had a plant lab, then what else is in the soil? We didn’t know at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everything was new."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was interesting. I had two small sons, so [I remember thinking that if something happened] they’ll just have to have family come take care of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask. That’s quite a commitment to make, to work in a building that you may be here for weeks if they had to seal the building."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you were told that if that happened—chances are it wouldn’t. You just had to be aware that that was a condition. That was fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work at all with the rocks or with any of the samples?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.918069103362944, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was interesting. I had two small sons, so [I remember thinking that if something happened] they’ll just have to have family come take care of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask. That’s quite a commitment to make, to work in a building that you may be here for weeks if they had to seal the building."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you were told that if that happened—chances are it wouldn’t. You just had to be aware that that was a condition. That was fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work at all with the rocks or with any of the samples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all in glass cases. We had a big vault where we had little vials of lunar dust that were locked up. We had the log, then we had this combination safe. They were kept in there, they were just tiny little vials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned also they would have press conferences out on the front [lawn]. Were you able to attend those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.353410114847716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you were told that if that happened—chances are it wouldn’t. You just had to be aware that that was a condition. That was fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work at all with the rocks or with any of the samples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all in glass cases. We had a big vault where we had little vials of lunar dust that were locked up. We had the log, then we had this combination safe. They were kept in there, they were just tiny little vials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned also they would have press conferences out on the front [lawn]. Were you able to attend those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they encouraged everybody that could be spared. You could go out on the lawn and hear each of the crewmen speak through the PA [public address] system to everyone. It wasn’t like a press conference that you think of now where there are questions answered and asked. It was the crew just relating their job well done and their statements, like what they do at Ellington now [after Shuttle missions]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your job change over the years? You said you took all the training that you could, and you found that safety was something that you enjoyed learning about."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.732208832730704, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was later, that wasn’t the very first ones that came out. Later on you had the little interchangeable balls. I don’t know what was better, putting the key in or changing that ball and putting another ball on. If you didn’t put it on right, boy, that ball would go fwoo [rolling across the room].\\n\\n Everything had to be letter-perfect. If it was being sent off the Center, you couldn’t have erasures. So if you got down to the very bottom and you had a typo, you had to rip that thing out of the typewriter and start all over from scratch. You had to be not interrupted if it was something like that, so that you could make sure. “Let me get this right.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had quite a group of personalities, I’m sure, that you worked with as well, because you had so many different types of people. The medical people and the science people, as you said the military background people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a multitude of personalities. Some were what we call difficult people. I even took a training class about how to work with difficult people. One individual—everybody termed him the hothead. The first day we had an afternoon break and the instructor says, “Do you work with him every day?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Why are you taking this class?” I thought uh-oh, but you just had to be able to—everyone’s temperamental. Physicians are different than researchers, they’re all different than engineers. Everyone has different personalities. Military, they’re totally different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And men from women. When did you actually have a woman boss?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a woman boss in the early ’90s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been different."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.035787591923004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were a multitude of personalities. Some were what we call difficult people. I even took a training class about how to work with difficult people. One individual—everybody termed him the hothead. The first day we had an afternoon break and the instructor says, “Do you work with him every day?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Why are you taking this class?” I thought uh-oh, but you just had to be able to—everyone’s temperamental. Physicians are different than researchers, they’re all different than engineers. Everyone has different personalities. Military, they’re totally different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And men from women. When did you actually have a woman boss?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a woman boss in the early ’90s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of people weren’t so keen about wanting to work for a woman. It doesn’t bother me. They have a different style. They’re more focused on their agenda than getting off track like men do, because men will do that. They’ll have a chain of thought, then it’s like they get onto something else. Women that I’ve worked for, they are focused. “Go down this path, I want to get this done, then we go to the next.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you learned that the astronaut corps was going to change and allow women to apply, and women scientists to apply?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.484208435470004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a woman boss in the early ’90s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of people weren’t so keen about wanting to work for a woman. It doesn’t bother me. They have a different style. They’re more focused on their agenda than getting off track like men do, because men will do that. They’ll have a chain of thought, then it’s like they get onto something else. Women that I’ve worked for, they are focused. “Go down this path, I want to get this done, then we go to the next.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you learned that the astronaut corps was going to change and allow women to apply, and women scientists to apply?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was glad. As a matter of fact, the assistant division chief that I also worked for is now the head of the astronaut crops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Peggy [A. Whitson]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.093564928300005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of people weren’t so keen about wanting to work for a woman. It doesn’t bother me. They have a different style. They’re more focused on their agenda than getting off track like men do, because men will do that. They’ll have a chain of thought, then it’s like they get onto something else. Women that I’ve worked for, they are focused. “Go down this path, I want to get this done, then we go to the next.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you learned that the astronaut corps was going to change and allow women to apply, and women scientists to apply?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was glad. As a matter of fact, the assistant division chief that I also worked for is now the head of the astronaut crops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Peggy [A. Whitson]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. She was great to work for, she was. She gave you a lot of latitude on doing your job. If you earned her trust, you had her trust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You only have a day and a half left in this building officially. What are some of your most memorable thoughts and favorite memories of being here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.659516587000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was glad. As a matter of fact, the assistant division chief that I also worked for is now the head of the astronaut crops."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Peggy [A. Whitson]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. She was great to work for, she was. She gave you a lot of latitude on doing your job. If you earned her trust, you had her trust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You only have a day and a half left in this building officially. What are some of your most memorable thoughts and favorite memories of being here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would have to say Apollo 11 was the greatest time in my experience, just because of all the challenges, the excitement. What a difference from anything I have experienced since then. Everything was unknown, everything was new. It was like a horse coming out of the gate, you didn’t know where this horse was going to go. It’s like riding at night with blinders on. It was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you’ve become facility manager, have you had a time that was extremely challenging? You mentioned that when you walk in sometimes you’ve got to hit the ground running, because you’ve got to go deal with a problem."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 12.856300000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We do. For years—and to this day people still believe that we are keeping the alien down there. Let me tell you, I’ve been there are a multitude of times—and I will not lie to you—there are no aliens in the Building 37 basement. It’s 90 feet. If that elevator breaks, you are going to get one good cardio workout, and I have done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it used for anything at all anymore?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right now it’s used for storage. Back in the Apollo days it was used for the radiation area. For a while the Science Directorate had a low-level counting lab in there, which they’ve since removed. A few years back we had the halon system released, when the fire techs [technicians] were doing their bell testing. They’ve recently put in the new system, but because the elevator is always going out, it’s just used for storage. It was 90 feet down, you can’t even get cell phone reception. There are no windows, there’s no restroom down there. That’s just cruel to put somebody down there. But everybody wants to go down. “We’ve always heard about the Building 37 basement, we want to go down there.” What for? It’s one big room with a long hallway that goes to a small room. That’s it, that’s all you’re going to see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No ghosts, no aliens."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Then a door going up to the stairs. You take them down there and it’s, “Oh, is this it?” This is it, the grand tour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like you grew up with NASA, you came here when it was so new. Now it’s celebrated 50 years and you’ve been with it for almost that entire time. What do you think you’re going to miss the most?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.23, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Then a door going up to the stairs. You take them down there and it’s, “Oh, is this it?” This is it, the grand tour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like you grew up with NASA, you came here when it was so new. Now it’s celebrated 50 years and you’ve been with it for almost that entire time. What do you think you’re going to miss the most?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the excitement and the people. It’s been exciting. It’s been interesting to watch how NASA has changed, it’s different. I don’t think it has registered that I’m retiring, because I’m still doing things and meeting with people. Wednesday [November 30, 2011] will be my last day, and I think Thursday morning it’s going to hit me. I’ve tried not to get emotional. It’s like no, no tears. This is not a sad occasion. It’s sad in the fact that you’re not going to get to see me, but you have my phone number, you can always call me. 45 years. I’ve earned this, it’s time for me to rest.\\n\\n In the economic times that we’re in right now, there are a lot of people without jobs. There are a lot of young people with young families. I’ve had my turn, I’m going to do okay. It’s time for others to come in to be able to get a job, and be able to get a rewarding satisfaction of saying, “I’ve been with NASA 40 years, 45 years, 30 years.”\\n\\n NASA has been a great place to work. I’m so glad that I did not say, “You all don’t know what you’re talking about, I’m going to college.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a different life you would have had."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s no telling what I would be doing now. So hindsight—they knew what was best for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our time is almost up. Are there other memories you would like to share before we close?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s no telling what I would be doing now. So hindsight—they knew what was best for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our time is almost up. Are there other memories you would like to share before we close?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think we’ve covered everything. It’s a great place for people to work. It’s exciting. I told them if we ever get a new building to replace 37, they have got to call me. I’ve been hearing since the ’70s that they’re going to replace 37 and I’ve yet to see it. I would like to see that. I would like to be able to see us go to Mars or go back to the Moon. I think there’s a lot more that we could have done on the Moon than just go to it, and I think that we have the capability now to do that. I would like to see that happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, I wanted to ask you about the recent [Apollo 11 lunar landing 40th] anniversary. You had the plaques made that identify the different aspects of the [history of the] building, then you hosted the event, inviting the Apollo astronauts to come."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had two, we had [Neil A.] Armstrong and we had [Edwin E. “Buzz”] Aldrin [Jr.]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a celebration you had in the building."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think we’ve covered everything. It’s a great place for people to work. It’s exciting. I told them if we ever get a new building to replace 37, they have got to call me. I’ve been hearing since the ’70s that they’re going to replace 37 and I’ve yet to see it. I would like to see that. I would like to be able to see us go to Mars or go back to the Moon. I think there’s a lot more that we could have done on the Moon than just go to it, and I think that we have the capability now to do that. I would like to see that happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close, I wanted to ask you about the recent [Apollo 11 lunar landing 40th] anniversary. You had the plaques made that identify the different aspects of the [history of the] building, then you hosted the event, inviting the Apollo astronauts to come."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had two, we had [Neil A.] Armstrong and we had [Edwin E. “Buzz”] Aldrin [Jr.]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a celebration you had in the building."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a lot of the medical officers that were here during that time, and the science people that were here that took care of the rocks. That was fun. It was really interesting to see how we’ve all wrinkled and grayed. But yes, we had one afternoon. It was a dedication ceremony [June 10, 2010]. We had the plaques that are throughout the southwest side to indicate where the crew was brought in, where the Moon rocks were brought in, where the crew reception area, where they ate and watched television, where they slept. Then the infamous Conference Room 1 where they gave their debriefs and met with their families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad that didn’t happen after you left, that you got to be part of all of that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00157:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had two, we had [Neil A.] Armstrong and we had [Edwin E. “Buzz”] Aldrin [Jr.]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a celebration you had in the building."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a lot of the medical officers that were here during that time, and the science people that were here that took care of the rocks. That was fun. It was really interesting to see how we’ve all wrinkled and grayed. But yes, we had one afternoon. It was a dedication ceremony [June 10, 2010]. We had the plaques that are throughout the southwest side to indicate where the crew was brought in, where the Moon rocks were brought in, where the crew reception area, where they ate and watched television, where they slept. Then the infamous Conference Room 1 where they gave their debriefs and met with their families."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad that didn’t happen after you left, that you got to be part of all of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they needed me out in the lobby, because no one else was here to remember who the people were. It’s like everybody that attended, I had worked for and they’ve retired. When they come back for a visit, they come in and stop and see me. I have told them, “I’m going to retire. You all are not going to have anybody left to come say hello to.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know it was probably a good comfort to them to know you were here still taking care of the building. Thanks so much for squeezing this session in your departure schedule, and I wish you the best of luck with all your new adventures."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00038:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.156868026184274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going to have to look up when that was. I am not really sure of the timeline for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just approximately, early 2000’s?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was late 2000’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I want to say, ’09, or 2010 possibly. But we can look online to see those exact dates. But mainly it was that people would file complaints against us for posting stuff like that. And then, of course it hit the news. Even though it had sort of been there before, now, you know, the Guatemalan government would get upset. You know, different, it could have had, I guess, a lot of political ramifications. Apparently, it was agreed upon by the countries that allowed this to occur, but the families of these people were very upset, and I don’t know if they received reparations, but they may have. That was the most—it was a very difficult project that I was involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you say that NARA was serving as sort of a watchdog in that scenario, or just had access to the records?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00038:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 32.39652002909364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was late 2000’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I want to say, ’09, or 2010 possibly. But we can look online to see those exact dates. But mainly it was that people would file complaints against us for posting stuff like that. And then, of course it hit the news. Even though it had sort of been there before, now, you know, the Guatemalan government would get upset. You know, different, it could have had, I guess, a lot of political ramifications. Apparently, it was agreed upon by the countries that allowed this to occur, but the families of these people were very upset, and I don’t know if they received reparations, but they may have. That was the most—it was a very difficult project that I was involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you say that NARA was serving as sort of a watchdog in that scenario, or just had access to the records?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we weren’t a watchdog because mainly we can’t publish things if they are records from another agency; we have to have their permission to publish them. So, all this was being worked out, with our General Counsel, their General Counsel—I guess it’s possible that they were FOIA-ed—we would not have released them without coordinating with CDC. So, you know, all this back and forth was going on about when we could release them, how we were supposed to release them, so there was a lot going on across these agencies to publish. But we were not really a watchdog. We just can’t publish some of the stuff until, you know, the agency agrees to release them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Moving to a more specific question, can you describe a typical day in your unit?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00038:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.780251400000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NARA has a daycare. It is actually when you first come in the building—no, you actually have to access it from the outside. So, when you first come in the driveway, if you look to your left, there is this little short area. That is the daycare, and that is where the playground is. The other time we see them is when there is a fire alarm, and parents rush down to get them, and then they, I mean, it’s kind of fun to see, but they put seven of them in a crib and roll them out—it’s kind of cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does Archives I have its own daycare? Do they send the kids on a shuttle here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It’s open to other people; it does not just have to be NARA employees. But there’s more facilities available downtown. The Department of Labor had their daycare center since 1963. But you have more opportunities to use other daycare centers nearby. You don’t have to rely on your own agency. So, my son went to Labor from three years to five years old. I think here they take them as infants, six weeks to eight weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He can put that on his resume: Department of Labor, age 2 to age 5."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you know, that was the fun thing. And so, I’d see a school bus come up here sometimes, so I’m not sure if there is school age, but an elementary school bus comes in the parking lot sometimes. So, there might be a kid down there who is already going to kindergarten."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you view your time at the National Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00038:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.866946000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It’s open to other people; it does not just have to be NARA employees. But there’s more facilities available downtown. The Department of Labor had their daycare center since 1963. But you have more opportunities to use other daycare centers nearby. You don’t have to rely on your own agency. So, my son went to Labor from three years to five years old. I think here they take them as infants, six weeks to eight weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He can put that on his resume: Department of Labor, age 2 to age 5."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you know, that was the fun thing. And so, I’d see a school bus come up here sometimes, so I’m not sure if there is school age, but an elementary school bus comes in the parking lot sometimes. So, there might be a kid down there who is already going to kindergarten."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you view your time at the National Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s interesting, because at first, one of the things I liked about working at Labor is I felt that the Department had a lot of impact on Americans, and I did not see that so much when I first came here. But over time I see that we’ve got so much history here. We are providing access to those records. Again, I’ve learned a lot. I do feel that this agency has a huge impact on all Americans, not just working Americans because that’s what Labor was: working Americans. Everybody who worked, but so, I definitely feel proud and honored to have worked for the agency. And it also, again, I think, I don’t know if you’re aware, we have low scores in terms of employee satisfaction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know that, but that’s interesting. Can you tell me more about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00038:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 6.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. On the web team, we were not archivists. The only thing that I do right now is the Federal Web Managers Council. And then there is a social media group, but they are not recognized like SAA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s okay; tell me about them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Federal Web Managers Council is, again, sponsored by GSA. They’ve been around for quite a while, but we used to have an annual training where we would share best practices and things like that, and so, there is a website, digitalgov.gov, where there is all the information. So, we would review new policies and new guidance. We would share all of that information and that kind of stuff. So, they used to have monthly meetings that I would attend and then when social media kicked off, that Social Media Council did that same sort of thing where, you know, you can go online. That’s the other things that changed so much: webinars and things, where you don’t have to leave your building and travel too far just to learn about the latest, you know, software that people are using and things like that. But no, I’m not affiliated with any formal things like SAA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, and is there anything you would like to add to the interview, such as anecdotes or words of wisdom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a hard one: anecdotes. I guess one thing is not to judge a book by its cover, probably because like I said, when I first came here I was thinking I had made a mistake because I felt like people were very unfriendly. It didn’t seem like people were very happy here, but over time, as I got to know everyone, there was this serious demeanor all the time, so it did not seem like people were having fun in their work, but that would be one. I guess the one thing that people don’t know about how I ended up in this is that I have a degree in hospitality."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know that program at UMass."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.438456526047222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good question. We moved from Franklin to Ellington [Air Force Base], and were at Ellington, in the barracks, for a while. Building 13 was one of the first buildings opened, other than Building 1 Headquarters. It was early on, when the site was first opened. I remember one of the times, walking into Building 13 after it had rained, and we walked on wooden planks because we still hadn’t put the sidewalks in. It was pretty early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that is fairly early. After you worked on that computer program, were you starting to work on testing ablators in different ways, besides computers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were doing that as soon as the JSC Arc Facility was developed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was the original one?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original one, the 1.0-megawatt facility. According to Don’s [Donald J. Tillian] history, it opened up in September of ’63. We started some testing back as early as late ’63, probably early ’64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all in using that facility?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.487173917830248, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were doing that as soon as the JSC Arc Facility was developed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was the original one?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original one, the 1.0-megawatt facility. According to Don’s [Donald J. Tillian] history, it opened up in September of ’63. We started some testing back as early as late ’63, probably early ’64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all in using that facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.319082130922496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original one, the 1.0-megawatt facility. According to Don’s [Donald J. Tillian] history, it opened up in September of ’63. We started some testing back as early as late ’63, probably early ’64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all in using that facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very interesting facility because it was small, and we could basically almost be out in the chamber and watch the tests go on. It was a 1-megawatt facility, and we did a lot of different material testing at the time. Shortly after that, I’m not sure exactly what the year was, but then we developed a bigger Arc Jet, the 1.5-megawatt facility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know the reasoning behind the need for a bigger facility? I find it interesting that you had a facility that you were using for Gemini and Apollo, but then there was a need, I guess."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.910091256580548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very interesting facility because it was small, and we could basically almost be out in the chamber and watch the tests go on. It was a 1-megawatt facility, and we did a lot of different material testing at the time. Shortly after that, I’m not sure exactly what the year was, but then we developed a bigger Arc Jet, the 1.5-megawatt facility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know the reasoning behind the need for a bigger facility? I find it interesting that you had a facility that you were using for Gemini and Apollo, but then there was a need, I guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The 1-megawatt really wasn’t big enough for Apollo. We really couldn’t get the power we needed, we couldn’t get the heating rates that we needed, couldn’t get the pressures we needed, the enthalpy values we needed. Also, we needed to be able to test bigger test articles. Initially, we tested small test articles, on the order of 1 inch to 2 inches, but we wanted to go to higher-sized articles. To do that, you had to have more power; you have to have a bigger exit nozzle, so a lot of equipment had to be changed. At the same time, we changed from a Plasmadyne facility to the Aerotherm facility, which was another innovation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you explain the difference?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.677879173978386, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very interesting facility because it was small, and we could basically almost be out in the chamber and watch the tests go on. It was a 1-megawatt facility, and we did a lot of different material testing at the time. Shortly after that, I’m not sure exactly what the year was, but then we developed a bigger Arc Jet, the 1.5-megawatt facility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know the reasoning behind the need for a bigger facility? I find it interesting that you had a facility that you were using for Gemini and Apollo, but then there was a need, I guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The 1-megawatt really wasn’t big enough for Apollo. We really couldn’t get the power we needed, we couldn’t get the heating rates that we needed, couldn’t get the pressures we needed, the enthalpy values we needed. Also, we needed to be able to test bigger test articles. Initially, we tested small test articles, on the order of 1 inch to 2 inches, but we wanted to go to higher-sized articles. To do that, you had to have more power; you have to have a bigger exit nozzle, so a lot of equipment had to be changed. At the same time, we changed from a Plasmadyne facility to the Aerotherm facility, which was another innovation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you explain the difference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t know the big difference between the two. Don would know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was put in charge of creating and designing that building? Do you recall some of the folks?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.19764352664265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The 1-megawatt really wasn’t big enough for Apollo. We really couldn’t get the power we needed, we couldn’t get the heating rates that we needed, couldn’t get the pressures we needed, the enthalpy values we needed. Also, we needed to be able to test bigger test articles. Initially, we tested small test articles, on the order of 1 inch to 2 inches, but we wanted to go to higher-sized articles. To do that, you had to have more power; you have to have a bigger exit nozzle, so a lot of equipment had to be changed. At the same time, we changed from a Plasmadyne facility to the Aerotherm facility, which was another innovation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you explain the difference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t know the big difference between the two. Don would know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was put in charge of creating and designing that building? Do you recall some of the folks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dave [David H.] Greenshields was the branch chief for the Arc Jet facility, so I’m sure he was the major person in charge of getting that building built, the 1-megawatt facility, and then actually the modifications after that, too, because he was the branch chief for many years, over the Arc Jet as well as over the thermal protection group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any interesting tests for Gemini or Apollo that stand out in your memory, since you said you were more of a user than on the other side, a test operator?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.441826140714056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t know the big difference between the two. Don would know that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was put in charge of creating and designing that building? Do you recall some of the folks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dave [David H.] Greenshields was the branch chief for the Arc Jet facility, so I’m sure he was the major person in charge of getting that building built, the 1-megawatt facility, and then actually the modifications after that, too, because he was the branch chief for many years, over the Arc Jet as well as over the thermal protection group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any interesting tests for Gemini or Apollo that stand out in your memory, since you said you were more of a user than on the other side, a test operator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Probably the most significant one was on Apollo. We were testing the Apollo material. When you do the test, you have to seal the back surface of the ablator against the sting arm—we call it the sting arm—we bonded it to an aluminum plate with an adhesive. The test article would maybe be two inches in diameter, or two inches thick, or four inches thick. On one test, we stuck it into the Arc Jet, and within seconds we destroyed the entire test article, which, as you might realize, would cause a little consternation among the people. Upon examination of, we realized that we didn’t get a good seal back at the interface between the ablator and the carrier plate, or the aluminum backup structure, we call it. Because of that, we had a gas flow that just went right through it because the material was porous. It had a porosity to it, so the gas just went through it and just basically destroyed it. Pressure of the gas plus the internal pressure being lower, it just had a great flow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yikes. Yes, I’m sure a lot of people were quite scared, thinking, “We’re going to send this to space? What will happen to the crew?”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.824251267460061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dave [David H.] Greenshields was the branch chief for the Arc Jet facility, so I’m sure he was the major person in charge of getting that building built, the 1-megawatt facility, and then actually the modifications after that, too, because he was the branch chief for many years, over the Arc Jet as well as over the thermal protection group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any interesting tests for Gemini or Apollo that stand out in your memory, since you said you were more of a user than on the other side, a test operator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Probably the most significant one was on Apollo. We were testing the Apollo material. When you do the test, you have to seal the back surface of the ablator against the sting arm—we call it the sting arm—we bonded it to an aluminum plate with an adhesive. The test article would maybe be two inches in diameter, or two inches thick, or four inches thick. On one test, we stuck it into the Arc Jet, and within seconds we destroyed the entire test article, which, as you might realize, would cause a little consternation among the people. Upon examination of, we realized that we didn’t get a good seal back at the interface between the ablator and the carrier plate, or the aluminum backup structure, we call it. Because of that, we had a gas flow that just went right through it because the material was porous. It had a porosity to it, so the gas just went through it and just basically destroyed it. Pressure of the gas plus the internal pressure being lower, it just had a great flow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yikes. Yes, I’m sure a lot of people were quite scared, thinking, “We’re going to send this to space? What will happen to the crew?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, why would this material fail all of a sudden?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did things change over time, in terms of testing, from Mercury through Apollo? Were you using different ablative materials?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.597841070938347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, why would this material fail all of a sudden?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did things change over time, in terms of testing, from Mercury through Apollo? Were you using different ablative materials?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. You’d have to say things changed because we learned from each test, and we learned more how to build the test articles, design the test article, design of all of the instrumentation that we put in a test article, actual shapes. We changed from just basically flat-faced specimens to what we call iso-Qs. An iso-Q specimen gives you a uniform heating flux across the surface, so that was an innovation that we had. Different tests could require different types of test articles itself, going all the way from stagnation point testing to parallel flow tests. As we moved into the 10-megawatt facility, that allowed us to do flat-plate testing, which we couldn’t do in the old facility, the old 1-megawatt facility. Now, with the new facility at 10 megawatts, higher power, more flow, more gas flow, we could test flat plates, we could test plates at an angle of attack, and we could test larger test articles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a pretty significant change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about how you prepared for these tests for Apollo? What sort of requirements were set by the facility for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.807104208106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, people don’t understand that, that’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me, why were you testing wood? What other sort of everyday materials were you testing in the facilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the time, we were interested just in understanding how different materials perform. Wood is a good material to test and determine its performance; actually, cork, which is wood, is used on missile systems. Cork is a material that’s used to protect the missile during its ascent phase of the trajectory. Of course, for the entry phase of the trajectory, they use another material, a higher density material. Cork is very lightweight and pretty weak, but also it has good properties for the environment that you want to test at.\\n\\n That’s the other thing: the materials are selected based on the environment in which they’re going to be used. One of the parameters that’s very important is temperature because each material has a temperature limit. You want a design to be as efficient as possible. So for example, that’s why the Shuttle system had carbon, which is a very high-temperature material, and had the tiles, which were a little bit lower-temperature material, and then it had the blankets, which were even lower-temperature materials. In combination, all three of them gave you a very efficient thermal protection system, in terms of weight and performance. The Arc Jet does all that for you, lets you test all those different materials, so you can determine their performance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you would run a test during Apollo, were you also there watching the test being done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Actually, during Apollo, we could be standing in what I call not the control room, but they had another little room out by the actual Arc Jet chamber. For many years, we could stand out in that little room and actually watch the test, looking through the windows into the main chamber of the Arc facility. That changed when safety got involved, and they decided it was too much of a hazard for a human to be out there, in case of a major accident, I guess, or incident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the test was over, then what did you do? You went out, and you looked at it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.811239763093827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Actually, during Apollo, we could be standing in what I call not the control room, but they had another little room out by the actual Arc Jet chamber. For many years, we could stand out in that little room and actually watch the test, looking through the windows into the main chamber of the Arc facility. That changed when safety got involved, and they decided it was too much of a hazard for a human to be out there, in case of a major accident, I guess, or incident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the test was over, then what did you do? You went out, and you looked at it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, we would watch the test, and when we actually moved into what I call the control room that we had, we could watch it on the cameras. If we saw something happening that was bad, we could terminate the test sooner than we had planned. Each test had a specific test time, but after the test, absolutely, we could go out. Once the chamber had cooled down and we had re-pressurized back up to atmospheric conditions, we could go out and look at the articles in the chamber. After hours, when they took the articles out, of course, we could look at them close-up. During the actual test, we could watch the temperature rise. We could look at the surface temperature, we could look at the internal temperatures from the thermocouples. There was a lot of things that you could do and were doing during the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If at some point during the test you thought, “This isn’t what I’m looking for,” you said you could stop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did what we’d call an abort. Absolutely, we could say, “Terminate the test.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you started preparing for another test because you wanted a different temperature or you weren’t seeing what you liked?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.568044181215363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, we would watch the test, and when we actually moved into what I call the control room that we had, we could watch it on the cameras. If we saw something happening that was bad, we could terminate the test sooner than we had planned. Each test had a specific test time, but after the test, absolutely, we could go out. Once the chamber had cooled down and we had re-pressurized back up to atmospheric conditions, we could go out and look at the articles in the chamber. After hours, when they took the articles out, of course, we could look at them close-up. During the actual test, we could watch the temperature rise. We could look at the surface temperature, we could look at the internal temperatures from the thermocouples. There was a lot of things that you could do and were doing during the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If at some point during the test you thought, “This isn’t what I’m looking for,” you said you could stop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did what we’d call an abort. Absolutely, we could say, “Terminate the test.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you started preparing for another test because you wanted a different temperature or you weren’t seeing what you liked?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, or we could wait, and wait until after we looked at the test article to make sure that’s what we wanted to do. Generally speaking, you’re correct, we would just prepare another test article, maybe change the test conditions. We’d actually do that many times when we were trying to establish what we called failing temperatures. If you wanted to do a failing temperature test, then you’d take it up in temperature, in increments, until you get to the failing point. Then, as soon as it starts to fail, you terminate the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who would make these test articles? Was that something the contractor provided?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.52004909023929, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did what we’d call an abort. Absolutely, we could say, “Terminate the test.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you started preparing for another test because you wanted a different temperature or you weren’t seeing what you liked?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, or we could wait, and wait until after we looked at the test article to make sure that’s what we wanted to do. Generally speaking, you’re correct, we would just prepare another test article, maybe change the test conditions. We’d actually do that many times when we were trying to establish what we called failing temperatures. If you wanted to do a failing temperature test, then you’d take it up in temperature, in increments, until you get to the failing point. Then, as soon as it starts to fail, you terminate the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who would make these test articles? Was that something the contractor provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally speaking, the company that made the material or fabricated the material did supply the test articles, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You would just tell them what dimensions you needed and the shape you wanted?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.5778323224881, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, or we could wait, and wait until after we looked at the test article to make sure that’s what we wanted to do. Generally speaking, you’re correct, we would just prepare another test article, maybe change the test conditions. We’d actually do that many times when we were trying to establish what we called failing temperatures. If you wanted to do a failing temperature test, then you’d take it up in temperature, in increments, until you get to the failing point. Then, as soon as it starts to fail, you terminate the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who would make these test articles? Was that something the contractor provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally speaking, the company that made the material or fabricated the material did supply the test articles, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You would just tell them what dimensions you needed and the shape you wanted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, you would buy the test articles from a corporation like Avco Corporation, at the time, and we would buy them already instrumented, per our design, our requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point, did you no longer need to test the ablators, since you had all of this wealth of knowledge from Mercury and Gemini, and once Apollo had flown 7 and 8? Was that enough, or did you still need to keep testing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.530924802764556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally speaking, the company that made the material or fabricated the material did supply the test articles, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You would just tell them what dimensions you needed and the shape you wanted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, you would buy the test articles from a corporation like Avco Corporation, at the time, and we would buy them already instrumented, per our design, our requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point, did you no longer need to test the ablators, since you had all of this wealth of knowledge from Mercury and Gemini, and once Apollo had flown 7 and 8? Was that enough, or did you still need to keep testing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With respect to Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo, as soon as we had test flights, then we didn’t need to do additional Arc Jet testing, unless we had some kind of anomaly during the flight. Then, we’d do anomaly flight test data. With Apollo, we had four separate unmanned test flights. Two test flights that entered at what’s called Earth-orbital speed, and two flights that were lunar return speeds. We had test data from those four test flights, and we had the Arc Jet test data so we could compare the flight data with the Arc Jet data. We could also conduct post-test examination of the different flight materials actually taken from the flight cores with the Arc Jet cores. We had a way to compare actual ground testing with flight testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they very similar?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.701027558627285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, you would buy the test articles from a corporation like Avco Corporation, at the time, and we would buy them already instrumented, per our design, our requirements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point, did you no longer need to test the ablators, since you had all of this wealth of knowledge from Mercury and Gemini, and once Apollo had flown 7 and 8? Was that enough, or did you still need to keep testing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With respect to Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo, as soon as we had test flights, then we didn’t need to do additional Arc Jet testing, unless we had some kind of anomaly during the flight. Then, we’d do anomaly flight test data. With Apollo, we had four separate unmanned test flights. Two test flights that entered at what’s called Earth-orbital speed, and two flights that were lunar return speeds. We had test data from those four test flights, and we had the Arc Jet test data so we could compare the flight data with the Arc Jet data. We could also conduct post-test examination of the different flight materials actually taken from the flight cores with the Arc Jet cores. We had a way to compare actual ground testing with flight testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they very similar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally, the Arc Jet is a little more severe than the flight test, for certain types of materials, because the Arc Jet, we always had what we called a disassociated flow. The gas was not oxygen O2, and it wasn’t nitrogen N2. It had been broken down into atomic oxygen and atomic nitrogen. Even at certain conditions for Apollo, we had some ionization. We tested at high enough temperature to ionize the gas. Generally flight conditions were pretty much the same but there’s a difference between the flight and the Arc Jet, so they’re not exactly 1:1. You would like them to be, but they’re not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assumed that it was."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.112252842919204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With respect to Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo, as soon as we had test flights, then we didn’t need to do additional Arc Jet testing, unless we had some kind of anomaly during the flight. Then, we’d do anomaly flight test data. With Apollo, we had four separate unmanned test flights. Two test flights that entered at what’s called Earth-orbital speed, and two flights that were lunar return speeds. We had test data from those four test flights, and we had the Arc Jet test data so we could compare the flight data with the Arc Jet data. We could also conduct post-test examination of the different flight materials actually taken from the flight cores with the Arc Jet cores. We had a way to compare actual ground testing with flight testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they very similar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally, the Arc Jet is a little more severe than the flight test, for certain types of materials, because the Arc Jet, we always had what we called a disassociated flow. The gas was not oxygen O2, and it wasn’t nitrogen N2. It had been broken down into atomic oxygen and atomic nitrogen. Even at certain conditions for Apollo, we had some ionization. We tested at high enough temperature to ionize the gas. Generally flight conditions were pretty much the same but there’s a difference between the flight and the Arc Jet, so they’re not exactly 1:1. You would like them to be, but they’re not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assumed that it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they’re not. Generally Arc Jet testing is more severe than flight, unless you cannot test at the flight conditions. There are conditions that you can’t test at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give some examples?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 25.680280936576892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally, the Arc Jet is a little more severe than the flight test, for certain types of materials, because the Arc Jet, we always had what we called a disassociated flow. The gas was not oxygen O2, and it wasn’t nitrogen N2. It had been broken down into atomic oxygen and atomic nitrogen. Even at certain conditions for Apollo, we had some ionization. We tested at high enough temperature to ionize the gas. Generally flight conditions were pretty much the same but there’s a difference between the flight and the Arc Jet, so they’re not exactly 1:1. You would like them to be, but they’re not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assumed that it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they’re not. Generally Arc Jet testing is more severe than flight, unless you cannot test at the flight conditions. There are conditions that you can’t test at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give some examples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the pressure’s really high and the heat flux is fairly high, some Arc Jets can’t reach both conditions at the same time. The high heating rate plus the high pressure, or you might even have a low heating rate condition and a high pressure. Sometimes you can’t match it up exactly, so you do the best you can. Then you use your analysis to extrapolate the data you like, to go ahead with the design."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the Apollo program, lots of guys have talked about how they were working nonstop, seven days a week, they were constantly on travel. Was that the same for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.394118177986424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Apollo 11, I think I was probably at home. Like I said, I wasn’t part of the project management, so I wasn’t really involved in Apollo 11 that much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you start working on Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nineteen-seventy, I became the subsystem manager on the Space Shuttle Orbiter leading edge structural subsystem, which is the nose cap, wing leading edge panels, arrowhead plate, and eventually, what we call the RCC [Reinforced Carbon-Carbon] chin panel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What lessons did you learn from Apollo that you could transfer to Shuttle? It’s two very different vehicles, of course."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.23965207158818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nineteen-seventy, I became the subsystem manager on the Space Shuttle Orbiter leading edge structural subsystem, which is the nose cap, wing leading edge panels, arrowhead plate, and eventually, what we call the RCC [Reinforced Carbon-Carbon] chin panel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What lessons did you learn from Apollo that you could transfer to Shuttle? It’s two very different vehicles, of course."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true, except for one thing. I think the reason I got selected to be the Shuttle leading edge manager for the carbon system was because the carbon system was an ablator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, carbon ablates. I had experience in ablation and in the chemistry aspects of that. We had to develop computer programs to predict the carbon response, thermally. I think because of that experience I had on Apollo, it just moved me into the carbon system. I guess again, another way to say it is your fireplace log—when it forms that carbon layer, it continues to burn. That carbon layer goes away because it oxidizes away from the oxygen in the atmosphere. That’s an ablation problem. I think that’s probably why I got selected to be the initial subsystem manager on the leading edge structural subsystem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the beginning, they were probably looking at a whole host of ideas. What were some of the ideas that were thrown out for the system itself?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.15516896843131, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true, except for one thing. I think the reason I got selected to be the Shuttle leading edge manager for the carbon system was because the carbon system was an ablator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, carbon ablates. I had experience in ablation and in the chemistry aspects of that. We had to develop computer programs to predict the carbon response, thermally. I think because of that experience I had on Apollo, it just moved me into the carbon system. I guess again, another way to say it is your fireplace log—when it forms that carbon layer, it continues to burn. That carbon layer goes away because it oxidizes away from the oxygen in the atmosphere. That’s an ablation problem. I think that’s probably why I got selected to be the initial subsystem manager on the leading edge structural subsystem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the beginning, they were probably looking at a whole host of ideas. What were some of the ideas that were thrown out for the system itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the Shuttle? Actually, we studied an ablative leading edge. That was one system. There were a couple of different contractors on carbon. One was McDonnell Douglas, and the other one was actually Chance Vought, at the time. From the competition, the Chance Vought people won the contract. Of course, they were a subcontractor to Rockwell at the time. Ablators would have worked fine, except that they were one-use only. You had to replace the ablator every time, and that was costly. It easily would have worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did NASA settle on the RCC system?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.950187742701452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, carbon ablates. I had experience in ablation and in the chemistry aspects of that. We had to develop computer programs to predict the carbon response, thermally. I think because of that experience I had on Apollo, it just moved me into the carbon system. I guess again, another way to say it is your fireplace log—when it forms that carbon layer, it continues to burn. That carbon layer goes away because it oxidizes away from the oxygen in the atmosphere. That’s an ablation problem. I think that’s probably why I got selected to be the initial subsystem manager on the leading edge structural subsystem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the beginning, they were probably looking at a whole host of ideas. What were some of the ideas that were thrown out for the system itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the Shuttle? Actually, we studied an ablative leading edge. That was one system. There were a couple of different contractors on carbon. One was McDonnell Douglas, and the other one was actually Chance Vought, at the time. From the competition, the Chance Vought people won the contract. Of course, they were a subcontractor to Rockwell at the time. Ablators would have worked fine, except that they were one-use only. You had to replace the ablator every time, and that was costly. It easily would have worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did NASA settle on the RCC system?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You had these phase II contracts, I’m not exactly sure, but maybe mid-1970s. I guess we had already decided because when I became subsystem manager in 1970, we’d already picked the system, basically, and already pretty much picked the Vought Corporation, with Rockwell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys were testing those materials out at the Arc Jet, as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.833541936334946, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the Shuttle? Actually, we studied an ablative leading edge. That was one system. There were a couple of different contractors on carbon. One was McDonnell Douglas, and the other one was actually Chance Vought, at the time. From the competition, the Chance Vought people won the contract. Of course, they were a subcontractor to Rockwell at the time. Ablators would have worked fine, except that they were one-use only. You had to replace the ablator every time, and that was costly. It easily would have worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did NASA settle on the RCC system?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You had these phase II contracts, I’m not exactly sure, but maybe mid-1970s. I guess we had already decided because when I became subsystem manager in 1970, we’d already picked the system, basically, and already pretty much picked the Vought Corporation, with Rockwell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys were testing those materials out at the Arc Jet, as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I probably had more test hours at that Arc Jet on carbon testing than any other person that’s ever used the Arc Jet, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many tests do you think that you’ve done out there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.92615770703883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You had these phase II contracts, I’m not exactly sure, but maybe mid-1970s. I guess we had already decided because when I became subsystem manager in 1970, we’d already picked the system, basically, and already pretty much picked the Vought Corporation, with Rockwell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys were testing those materials out at the Arc Jet, as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I probably had more test hours at that Arc Jet on carbon testing than any other person that’s ever used the Arc Jet, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many tests do you think that you’ve done out there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three or four thousand, easily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s quite a few."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.31258577636802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, we had to get an astronaut out there to do it, that’s the first thing. That’s a safety problem, I realize that, but we have on board all kinds of materials—blankets in the payload bay, rubber shoes that they wear, and things of this sort—that they could have filled up that hole to ablate those materials first. Because of that hole, we actually ingested gas temperatures probably on the order of 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit, maybe higher. No wonder it burned right through the aluminum front spar. It wasn’t going to last long at those temperatures. Now, whether we could have done that or not, we’ll never know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask if you had studied that because I came across an article that talked about how you and some other folks had studied, like in ’99, 2000 sometime, the impact of a micrometeoroid or orbital debris on the reinforced carbon-carbon. I was curious about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had some damage levels on that, but they were small particles. We really never did do any real test of really large particles hitting the carbon system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s very interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were involved in the accident investigation?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 20.3473175292978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had some damage levels on that, but they were small particles. We really never did do any real test of really large particles hitting the carbon system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s very interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were involved in the accident investigation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you talk about that, and how the Arc Jet played a role as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.825967884922724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a big effort, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the size that was small enough that you could enter?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d have to go back to look at it. I’m thinking it was like, eighth of an inch? About an eighth of an inch damage in the coating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much, and of course, it was panel-dependent. Each panel had a little bit separate requirement, because the heating was different and environment was different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had tested each individual panel?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.473297649914137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d have to go back to look at it. I’m thinking it was like, eighth of an inch? About an eighth of an inch damage in the coating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much, and of course, it was panel-dependent. Each panel had a little bit separate requirement, because the heating was different and environment was different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had tested each individual panel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a lot of testing at different damages in the coating to see how fast we could burn through, or if it would burn through the coating, to the substrate. We analyzed a lot of different test data. When that flight changes or something happened during the flight, we worked on additional calculations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ever doing any in-flight testing ever at the Arc Jet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.303664055460153, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much, and of course, it was panel-dependent. Each panel had a little bit separate requirement, because the heating was different and environment was different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had tested each individual panel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a lot of testing at different damages in the coating to see how fast we could burn through, or if it would burn through the coating, to the substrate. We analyzed a lot of different test data. When that flight changes or something happened during the flight, we worked on additional calculations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ever doing any in-flight testing ever at the Arc Jet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have to actually do, as I recall, any real in-flight testing. The tile people had to do a lot of in-flight testing at the Arc Jet, but I can’t remember us doing any really Arc Jet testing over there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were doing all these, I guess, life cycle or impact tests, were you doing them all here at JSC, or were you also doing some at Ames?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.226293394955725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a lot of testing at different damages in the coating to see how fast we could burn through, or if it would burn through the coating, to the substrate. We analyzed a lot of different test data. When that flight changes or something happened during the flight, we worked on additional calculations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ever doing any in-flight testing ever at the Arc Jet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have to actually do, as I recall, any real in-flight testing. The tile people had to do a lot of in-flight testing at the Arc Jet, but I can’t remember us doing any really Arc Jet testing over there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were doing all these, I guess, life cycle or impact tests, were you doing them all here at JSC, or were you also doing some at Ames?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was done at JSC. During the Shuttle program, we had Ames do some tests. Their test data did not agree with ours. In fact, their test data indicated we would have had failures. We would have a failure in a normal flight. Just for a normal entry, we would have exceeded some of our temperatures, had we used their test data. The only time we ever used any Ames data was when they helped find the subsurface oxidation, way back in the early ’70s. For Shuttle, almost all of the carbon testing was done at JSC. I can’t remember really going out to use Ames, because we just didn’t get the same results. Our data seemed to match flight data because we had on-board measurements of temperatures, and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That says a lot about the JSC facility itself."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.251437105506362, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have to actually do, as I recall, any real in-flight testing. The tile people had to do a lot of in-flight testing at the Arc Jet, but I can’t remember us doing any really Arc Jet testing over there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were doing all these, I guess, life cycle or impact tests, were you doing them all here at JSC, or were you also doing some at Ames?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was done at JSC. During the Shuttle program, we had Ames do some tests. Their test data did not agree with ours. In fact, their test data indicated we would have had failures. We would have a failure in a normal flight. Just for a normal entry, we would have exceeded some of our temperatures, had we used their test data. The only time we ever used any Ames data was when they helped find the subsurface oxidation, way back in the early ’70s. For Shuttle, almost all of the carbon testing was done at JSC. I can’t remember really going out to use Ames, because we just didn’t get the same results. Our data seemed to match flight data because we had on-board measurements of temperatures, and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That says a lot about the JSC facility itself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it does. We’ve now closed it. Now we have one facility. I was on an NESC [NASA Engineering and Safety Center] board that studied the two facilities, and we found there’s differences between them, and we couldn’t resolve the differences. From the NESC report, which is restricted, we recommended a test program to be done between JSC and Ames to try to understand this problem. It was not approved. We’ve now closed the JSC facility, and we don’t have the answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about that assignment. I wasn’t aware of that study that was done. How did you get assigned to the board?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.310416179637482, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it does. We’ve now closed it. Now we have one facility. I was on an NESC [NASA Engineering and Safety Center] board that studied the two facilities, and we found there’s differences between them, and we couldn’t resolve the differences. From the NESC report, which is restricted, we recommended a test program to be done between JSC and Ames to try to understand this problem. It was not approved. We’ve now closed the JSC facility, and we don’t have the answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about that assignment. I wasn’t aware of that study that was done. How did you get assigned to the board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got assigned as a subject matter expert on ablative thermal protection systems and Arc Jet testing. I was what they call a national expert on ablatives, and the NESC hired me. I had retired, by the way, from NASA by then. I retired in 2007. I was a NASA expert, or an advisory expert, with that system. I think that came about because at that time, they were still trying to close the JSC facility, so the NESC did this study. We made these recommendations to the management of the NESC, we signed the report with them, they signed it, but the recommended Arc Jet testing was never implemented. Along with a lot of other people, like Don Tillian, we both have the same opinion about testing at Ames. We don’t know what the data means—totally. It’s good data, but what does it mean? Whether it is not correct, or is it correct? I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s a shame."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is; it’s a shame. The government destroyed a valuable resource. I spent two years writing letters to Congress on this, but to no avail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sorry to hear that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.23379575515276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got assigned as a subject matter expert on ablative thermal protection systems and Arc Jet testing. I was what they call a national expert on ablatives, and the NESC hired me. I had retired, by the way, from NASA by then. I retired in 2007. I was a NASA expert, or an advisory expert, with that system. I think that came about because at that time, they were still trying to close the JSC facility, so the NESC did this study. We made these recommendations to the management of the NESC, we signed the report with them, they signed it, but the recommended Arc Jet testing was never implemented. Along with a lot of other people, like Don Tillian, we both have the same opinion about testing at Ames. We don’t know what the data means—totally. It’s good data, but what does it mean? Whether it is not correct, or is it correct? I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s a shame."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is; it’s a shame. The government destroyed a valuable resource. I spent two years writing letters to Congress on this, but to no avail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sorry to hear that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am, too. The worst part about it is, for your information, the people at NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC] did not provide answers to some of the questions to the congressional people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s too bad."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 18.03755083905862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is; it’s a shame. The government destroyed a valuable resource. I spent two years writing letters to Congress on this, but to no avail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sorry to hear that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am, too. The worst part about it is, for your information, the people at NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC] did not provide answers to some of the questions to the congressional people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s too bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is. It is too bad because my early years with NASA, I used to spend a lot of time at Ames on Arc Jet testing and ablation analysis. I spent weeks at Ames and at the Langley Research Center, both of them were really training grounds for me at the time. Those early scientists were really very smart."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me a little bit about some of the advanced technology that you studied out at the Arc Jet. I saw you worked some on the X-38 and the Aeroassist Flight Experiment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.906105403372594, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the manager for the Aeroassist Flight Experiment. That was another really good project. The Aeroassist Flight Experiment was going to be taken up in the Shuttle Orbiter payload bay, and then we would re-enter the aerobraking experiment at a little over geosynchronous orbit speed. At geosynchronous orbit speed, we could get the temperatures up and the heat flux up, so that we had both the convective heating and radiative heating on the forward portion of the heat shield. That was mainly a tile system because we wanted it to be re-usable, and we didn’t want any ablation products, because we wanted to have a pure re-entry environment. Ablation products will mess up the boundary layer and change the chemistry, so we didn’t want to do that.\\n\\n I was a manager on that, here at JSC. We actually built the aerobrake, and we were in the process of installing a tile system on it, which, at the time, was basically the Shuttle tile and blanket system, to deliver the aerobrake to Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama]. They were the project management of it. It got canceled because of cost. The project management costs killed it, but we actually had built it here at JSC—in house. We bought the tiles from Lockheed, and we could install them ourselves. Our own technicians built the structure out in Building 9. It was wonderful. We had a great time on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it never flew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It never flew. It would have provided data, aerothermodynamic data, for Mars entry that we were trying to get. It was the perfect experiment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was the precursor to what the Arc Jet had developed in terms of that CO2 landing that Chris [Christopher B. Madden] and Steve [Steven V.] Del Papa talked a little bit about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CO2, yes, that was for Mars entry. You need to have a CO2 environment, so JSC developed the ability to test materials in a CO2 environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the X-38? How different was its thermal protection system from Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.340117114858439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It never flew. It would have provided data, aerothermodynamic data, for Mars entry that we were trying to get. It was the perfect experiment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was the precursor to what the Arc Jet had developed in terms of that CO2 landing that Chris [Christopher B. Madden] and Steve [Steven V.] Del Papa talked a little bit about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CO2, yes, that was for Mars entry. You need to have a CO2 environment, so JSC developed the ability to test materials in a CO2 environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the X-38? How different was its thermal protection system from Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mainly the Germans provided the carbon system on X-38, the nose cap and the wing leading edge. Basically, all I did on X-38 was just monitor their work. I did some work on their seal system; we developed a seal system for the body flap area and did some work on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you are the Arc Jet for the final test that happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.93346346095382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "CO2, yes, that was for Mars entry. You need to have a CO2 environment, so JSC developed the ability to test materials in a CO2 environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the X-38? How different was its thermal protection system from Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mainly the Germans provided the carbon system on X-38, the nose cap and the wing leading edge. Basically, all I did on X-38 was just monitor their work. I did some work on their seal system; we developed a seal system for the body flap area and did some work on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you are the Arc Jet for the final test that happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell me about that moment and your memories about what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.259403845504245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mainly the Germans provided the carbon system on X-38, the nose cap and the wing leading edge. Basically, all I did on X-38 was just monitor their work. I did some work on their seal system; we developed a seal system for the body flap area and did some work on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you are the Arc Jet for the final test that happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell me about that moment and your memories about what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The final test that I was at was for Boeing. I work part-time for Boeing. Boeing is developing an ablator for their CCDev [Commercial Crew Development] capsule, which is their capsule to take men to the Space Station. We were doing the final set of ablation tests on the Boeing material; we’ve been testing that material at different conditions of temperature and pressure to determine its performance. The last test was one of those tests. I can’t really tell you much about the test, other than it was a Boeing material. It was sad to see. We got the test done fine, no problems, and got the data.\\n\\n We’re actually analyzing the data now, but to know we’re sitting in that facility for the last time, that that’ll be not there anymore is kind of sad, I guess. In some ways, angry. Like my wife said, “Well, Don, everything ends.” That’s true, it does, so let’s end it. I feel sorry for the guys here at JSC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they’ve lost a good resource."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.73267093944916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell me about that moment and your memories about what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The final test that I was at was for Boeing. I work part-time for Boeing. Boeing is developing an ablator for their CCDev [Commercial Crew Development] capsule, which is their capsule to take men to the Space Station. We were doing the final set of ablation tests on the Boeing material; we’ve been testing that material at different conditions of temperature and pressure to determine its performance. The last test was one of those tests. I can’t really tell you much about the test, other than it was a Boeing material. It was sad to see. We got the test done fine, no problems, and got the data.\\n\\n We’re actually analyzing the data now, but to know we’re sitting in that facility for the last time, that that’ll be not there anymore is kind of sad, I guess. In some ways, angry. Like my wife said, “Well, Don, everything ends.” That’s true, it does, so let’s end it. I feel sorry for the guys here at JSC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they’ve lost a good resource."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they have. Now, they’ve got to go to another place. One thing about our facility is that when the contractors came in to do the tests, we’ve always allowed them free access to the facility, been willing to make changes to the facility, arc test conditions, whatever. Plus, our costs have been about a factor of three less than Ames was. There’s a big difference in our approach to testing and Ames’s approach to testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask you, you mentioned that the test you were doing for Boeing, it’s a Boeing material, but it’s an ablator. I know it’s probably proprietary, but is it similar to AVCO, or is it completely different from what was used during Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.18848264129526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they have. Now, they’ve got to go to another place. One thing about our facility is that when the contractors came in to do the tests, we’ve always allowed them free access to the facility, been willing to make changes to the facility, arc test conditions, whatever. Plus, our costs have been about a factor of three less than Ames was. There’s a big difference in our approach to testing and Ames’s approach to testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask you, you mentioned that the test you were doing for Boeing, it’s a Boeing material, but it’s an ablator. I know it’s probably proprietary, but is it similar to AVCO, or is it completely different from what was used during Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is different than Apollo material. It’s hard for me to say it’s similar to Apollo because it’s a different material, it’s a different-based material, but it has to operate at non-lunar conditions. It only has to operate at Earth-orbital conditions, which are significantly different than lunar conditions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you run into any challenges, or were they similar challenges to the one you faced for testing of Apollo ablators?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think they’re much different. We have to go through the same process, we have to get the data, we have to analyze the data, and determine if the material’s going to work or not. We’re in that process. It can meet all the design requirements, that’s what I was trying to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think, having worked on the Arc Jet for all these years, that testing has changed or anything changed over the years, since you started?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 19.09831404588362, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is different than Apollo material. It’s hard for me to say it’s similar to Apollo because it’s a different material, it’s a different-based material, but it has to operate at non-lunar conditions. It only has to operate at Earth-orbital conditions, which are significantly different than lunar conditions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you run into any challenges, or were they similar challenges to the one you faced for testing of Apollo ablators?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think they’re much different. We have to go through the same process, we have to get the data, we have to analyze the data, and determine if the material’s going to work or not. We’re in that process. It can meet all the design requirements, that’s what I was trying to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think, having worked on the Arc Jet for all these years, that testing has changed or anything changed over the years, since you started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we’ve become more efficient. We’ve been able to develop test article designs to meet certain requirements that we couldn’t do before, initially. We understand a lot more now about the actual Arc Jet itself and its flow characteristics. Sure, we learned a lot. Remember, when we first started, back in ’63, this was one of the first Arc Jets every built. From nothing to where we are, yes, sure, been a lot of our work done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was another question I wanted to ask. I know that there are other Arc Jets around the country. Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] has that small Arc Jet, and there’s Ames, and I think Boeing has one. How was JSC’s Arc Jet facility unique, when compared to all of these other facilities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.569904047986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I can’t share it because I don’t have any of the data. We did the test—and Tillian knows more about this than I do—there was a test report written on the response of their material. It was secret, and it went to our division office, who kept it locked up for a while. Then, they transferred it to NASA Headquarters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was a test for Soyuz? Or you’re not sure what it was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the ablation material for Soyuz. I don’t think they’ve changed. That was a long time ago, and people ask for those results. They may exist, but I don’t know where they are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this before ISS [International Space Station] or after?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.18878227554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I can’t share it because I don’t have any of the data. We did the test—and Tillian knows more about this than I do—there was a test report written on the response of their material. It was secret, and it went to our division office, who kept it locked up for a while. Then, they transferred it to NASA Headquarters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was a test for Soyuz? Or you’re not sure what it was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the ablation material for Soyuz. I don’t think they’ve changed. That was a long time ago, and people ask for those results. They may exist, but I don’t know where they are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this before ISS [International Space Station] or after?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, way before. We tested this during the Apollo program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now I see why it was locked up. I wondered if you could talk about the camaraderie out at the Arc Jet over the years, since you worked it for so long."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 16.876424750600002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the ablation material for Soyuz. I don’t think they’ve changed. That was a long time ago, and people ask for those results. They may exist, but I don’t know where they are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this before ISS [International Space Station] or after?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, way before. We tested this during the Apollo program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now I see why it was locked up. I wondered if you could talk about the camaraderie out at the Arc Jet over the years, since you worked it for so long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was wonderful. Everybody was dedicated to that facility, first of all, and when you asked them to do something or wanted to be out there, they were very open to helping you design the test articles. A man by the name of Jim [James] Milhoan, who works out there, designed several test articles that helped us tremendously on the carbon system, particularly on our damage assessment analysis of the carbon. Developed a whole other system that allowed us to actually simulate a cavity behind the carbon system, so that once we actually burned through the carbon, we could exhaust that gas out and let the carbon continue to burn. That’s how we’re able to form these so-called knife edges. They’ve been extremely cooperative. There was a great respect between the engineering group, where I worked, and the Arc Jet group. We were the same group, as far as I was concerned. There was no difference, we all worked together. I can’t remember us every having any problems at all, of any kind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What significance do you think the Arc Jet has had, in terms of human spaceflight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.473746, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. If you reduce the Arc Jet facilities down to one, you don’t have a crosscheck. There is no way to understand any potential errors in the tests, test results, or the test analysis. Now, let’s say Orion launches. They eventually go to the Moon or they go to Mars, then have to analyze some conditions that they hadn’t anticipated. Now, they’ve got to go back to the same facility that gave them the data that said the design was adequate. Where’s the crosscheck? There isn’t. That’s a bad situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What has the Arc Jet Facility meant to you, over the years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess it’s my career because I’ve used it during Apollo, started using it actually with Gemini, a little bit, Apollo, and all of Shuttle. I’ve done a lot of advanced technology work with the Arc Jet, developing new ablator materials. I used to have SBIR [Small Business Innovation Research] contracts. Had one with another company, and we developed a whole series of ablative materials beyond Apollo, which I thought were really good materials that could be used for other programs. I think some of them actually are being used. But it was an SBIR, so as you know, SBIRs are proprietary to the company, so that’s where it stayed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One thing I noticed when I was out doing research, you have a Ph.D. in engineering. Was the Arc Jet in any way related to your doctoral studies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really, because my Ph.D. was related to my analytical work I did in ablation. I just extended it a little bit in a dimensional way, to study some effects of multi-dimensional mass flux and flow in a porous media. It extended some of the equations that I had done in ablation. It just worked out that way, but I actually didn’t do any tests at the Arc Jet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working on that during Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.6466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really, because my Ph.D. was related to my analytical work I did in ablation. I just extended it a little bit in a dimensional way, to study some effects of multi-dimensional mass flux and flow in a porous media. It extended some of the equations that I had done in ablation. It just worked out that way, but I actually didn’t do any tests at the Arc Jet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working on that during Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I actually got my Ph.D. degree in ’70, so yes, I guess I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s impressive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m sorry, end of Apollo, the start of Shuttle, in that interim period between the two. I got a full year’s leave of absence to do my dissertation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a nice perk."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I actually got my Ph.D. degree in ’70, so yes, I guess I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s impressive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m sorry, end of Apollo, the start of Shuttle, in that interim period between the two. I got a full year’s leave of absence to do my dissertation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a nice perk."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was, it sure was, to go to school for free and get paid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that doesn’t happen every day, does it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.86, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m sorry, end of Apollo, the start of Shuttle, in that interim period between the two. I got a full year’s leave of absence to do my dissertation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a nice perk."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was, it sure was, to go to school for free and get paid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that doesn’t happen every day, does it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It doesn’t. We did that a long time here at JSC. We’d still be doing that. In fact, we used to offer University of Houston graduate courses in Building 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve seen the memos; I guess now you go over to UHCL [University of Houston-Clear Lake]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was, it sure was, to go to school for free and get paid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that doesn’t happen every day, does it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It doesn’t. We did that a long time here at JSC. We’d still be doing that. In fact, we used to offer University of Houston graduate courses in Building 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve seen the memos; I guess now you go over to UHCL [University of Houston-Clear Lake]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No I finished my courses at the University of Houston main campus and then applied for the year’s leave of absence to do my dissertation, and I got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know you brought some notes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00120:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 6.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It doesn’t. We did that a long time here at JSC. We’d still be doing that. In fact, we used to offer University of Houston graduate courses in Building 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve seen the memos; I guess now you go over to UHCL [University of Houston-Clear Lake]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No I finished my courses at the University of Houston main campus and then applied for the year’s leave of absence to do my dissertation, and I got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know you brought some notes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they are not notes. These were Tillian’s in case you wanted to ask."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that we have hit on the questions I had. I’m just taking a look. Is there anything else you think that we might want to talk about, in terms of the Arc Jet Facility, Shuttle, Apollo, advanced programs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.565461287814404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m happy to be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We are too. We’re excited. I wanted to ask you, because my son is a big fan of Trolls. I know this is a weird question, but I thought it might be fun because I read an article about your name. You go by Poppy, but your name is actually Frances."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get that nickname and how did it stick?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have an older brother, he’s six years older than me, and when my mom was pregnant he had a favorite Little Golden Book fairy tale. The name of the book was Poppy, the Four-Inch Fairy. It had two leading characters, Poppy, who was the girl fairy, and Pogo, who was the boy fairy. He decided that if he had a baby sister he was going to call her Poppy; if he had a baby brother he was going to call him Pogo. My parents named me Frances Marian Northcutt and that’s what appears on my birth certificate, but there is nothing more persistent than a six-year-old boy. So I’ve always been called Poppy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even your parents, do they call you Poppy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.628290319793782, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get that nickname and how did it stick?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have an older brother, he’s six years older than me, and when my mom was pregnant he had a favorite Little Golden Book fairy tale. The name of the book was Poppy, the Four-Inch Fairy. It had two leading characters, Poppy, who was the girl fairy, and Pogo, who was the boy fairy. He decided that if he had a baby sister he was going to call her Poppy; if he had a baby brother he was going to call him Pogo. My parents named me Frances Marian Northcutt and that’s what appears on my birth certificate, but there is nothing more persistent than a six-year-old boy. So I’ve always been called Poppy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even your parents, do they call you Poppy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, always. I sign my name, checks, “Frances M.” But everyone calls me Poppy. If you were to say, “Hey, Frances,” I wouldn’t even know who you were talking to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out about the opportunity to work for TRW [Thompson Ramo Wooldridge] in Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.809211466437535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have an older brother, he’s six years older than me, and when my mom was pregnant he had a favorite Little Golden Book fairy tale. The name of the book was Poppy, the Four-Inch Fairy. It had two leading characters, Poppy, who was the girl fairy, and Pogo, who was the boy fairy. He decided that if he had a baby sister he was going to call her Poppy; if he had a baby brother he was going to call him Pogo. My parents named me Frances Marian Northcutt and that’s what appears on my birth certificate, but there is nothing more persistent than a six-year-old boy. So I’ve always been called Poppy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even your parents, do they call you Poppy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, always. I sign my name, checks, “Frances M.” But everyone calls me Poppy. If you were to say, “Hey, Frances,” I wouldn’t even know who you were talking to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out about the opportunity to work for TRW [Thompson Ramo Wooldridge] in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was looking for a job. I went to an employment agency, and they sent me out for an interview. I had really no idea what I wanted to do. At that time, women weren’t expected to be thinking about careers at all. I came out. It at least would use my math degree, and I thought it was sort of interesting, so I just went to work there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your understanding of what you would be doing once you were hired?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.010234962708372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, always. I sign my name, checks, “Frances M.” But everyone calls me Poppy. If you were to say, “Hey, Frances,” I wouldn’t even know who you were talking to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out about the opportunity to work for TRW [Thompson Ramo Wooldridge] in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was looking for a job. I went to an employment agency, and they sent me out for an interview. I had really no idea what I wanted to do. At that time, women weren’t expected to be thinking about careers at all. I came out. It at least would use my math degree, and I thought it was sort of interesting, so I just went to work there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your understanding of what you would be doing once you were hired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a tech aide. The job title was “computress,” which I thought was curious at the time. I had no idea that that actually matched up with what I would later see in that movie, Hidden Figures. Those women were also called computresses. When I saw that movie I went, “Oh my goodness, now I know.” That’s what they called all of us. We were female calculators, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of that term computress?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.233594403009302, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was looking for a job. I went to an employment agency, and they sent me out for an interview. I had really no idea what I wanted to do. At that time, women weren’t expected to be thinking about careers at all. I came out. It at least would use my math degree, and I thought it was sort of interesting, so I just went to work there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your understanding of what you would be doing once you were hired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a tech aide. The job title was “computress,” which I thought was curious at the time. I had no idea that that actually matched up with what I would later see in that movie, Hidden Figures. Those women were also called computresses. When I saw that movie I went, “Oh my goodness, now I know.” That’s what they called all of us. We were female calculators, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of that term computress?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the time I just thought it was weird. I had done some work with computers in college. I’d taken a course in FORTRAN. I just thought it was weird. They’re calling me a female computer? How weird is that? Beyond that I didn’t think much about it. I had no idea about the history of it, that they were using that in other places as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first days like out here at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.481771558899224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a tech aide. The job title was “computress,” which I thought was curious at the time. I had no idea that that actually matched up with what I would later see in that movie, Hidden Figures. Those women were also called computresses. When I saw that movie I went, “Oh my goodness, now I know.” That’s what they called all of us. We were female calculators, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of that term computress?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the time I just thought it was weird. I had done some work with computers in college. I’d taken a course in FORTRAN. I just thought it was weird. They’re calling me a female computer? How weird is that? Beyond that I didn’t think much about it. I had no idea about the history of it, that they were using that in other places as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first days like out here at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for a contractor. I worked for TRW Systems. It was a pretty small operation initially. I was basically running data, graphing data, doing calculations. We had a big computer in house. Using the big computer was not interactive at that time, not the way it is now, so you had to do punch cards. It was a process to get something done. You didn’t just sit down and pop something out.\\n\\n That’s basically what I was doing. I was taking a lot of data and graphing it up for engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working for MPAD [Mission Planning and Analysis Division], is that correct, at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.868635065443582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the time I just thought it was weird. I had done some work with computers in college. I’d taken a course in FORTRAN. I just thought it was weird. They’re calling me a female computer? How weird is that? Beyond that I didn’t think much about it. I had no idea about the history of it, that they were using that in other places as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first days like out here at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for a contractor. I worked for TRW Systems. It was a pretty small operation initially. I was basically running data, graphing data, doing calculations. We had a big computer in house. Using the big computer was not interactive at that time, not the way it is now, so you had to do punch cards. It was a process to get something done. You didn’t just sit down and pop something out.\\n\\n That’s basically what I was doing. I was taking a lot of data and graphing it up for engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working for MPAD [Mission Planning and Analysis Division], is that correct, at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The contract was with MPAD, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other women who were working in MPAD besides administrative folks and secretaries? Other computresses?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.96515007271509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked for a contractor. I worked for TRW Systems. It was a pretty small operation initially. I was basically running data, graphing data, doing calculations. We had a big computer in house. Using the big computer was not interactive at that time, not the way it is now, so you had to do punch cards. It was a process to get something done. You didn’t just sit down and pop something out.\\n\\n That’s basically what I was doing. I was taking a lot of data and graphing it up for engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working for MPAD [Mission Planning and Analysis Division], is that correct, at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The contract was with MPAD, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other women who were working in MPAD besides administrative folks and secretaries? Other computresses?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never saw any. There may have been, but I never saw any. At that point, when I first went to work, I didn’t really see MPAD at all. I was just seeing the guys I was working with at TRW. I guess I got captured by the grand experiment that this was, that we were going to go to the Moon.\\n\\n At that time they were flying Gemini, I guess, and there was some work going on where I was working on Gemini. I may have done a few things with Gemini, but basically I was working at the very very early stages of the return to Earth program, which was fortunate for me because it was the early stages. That was the time to get in. I was just fascinated by the craziness of this thing that we were going to go to the Moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been following the space program at all before you were hired?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.739055636350099, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The contract was with MPAD, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other women who were working in MPAD besides administrative folks and secretaries? Other computresses?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never saw any. There may have been, but I never saw any. At that point, when I first went to work, I didn’t really see MPAD at all. I was just seeing the guys I was working with at TRW. I guess I got captured by the grand experiment that this was, that we were going to go to the Moon.\\n\\n At that time they were flying Gemini, I guess, and there was some work going on where I was working on Gemini. I may have done a few things with Gemini, but basically I was working at the very very early stages of the return to Earth program, which was fortunate for me because it was the early stages. That was the time to get in. I was just fascinated by the craziness of this thing that we were going to go to the Moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been following the space program at all before you were hired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. Not really. I got intrigued by it. At first I was sort of overawed by all of the people around me and all these MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] PhDs and Caltech [California Institute of Technology]. I had a bachelor’s degree in mathematics, and quite frankly I majored in beer drinking and campus politics really. I had a math degree, but if you want to talk about the truth it was beer drinking and campus politics.\\n\\n So I was a little overawed by all of this technical prowess around me. Then about two or three months in, it occurred to me that these people were not really any smarter than I was. They had better degrees than I did and paid more attention in class, but they weren’t actually any smarter than I was. So I thought, “I think I could learn how to do a lot of this stuff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you start taking work home? Were you taking classes at U of H [University of Houston]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.319821773271727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. Not really. I got intrigued by it. At first I was sort of overawed by all of the people around me and all these MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] PhDs and Caltech [California Institute of Technology]. I had a bachelor’s degree in mathematics, and quite frankly I majored in beer drinking and campus politics really. I had a math degree, but if you want to talk about the truth it was beer drinking and campus politics.\\n\\n So I was a little overawed by all of this technical prowess around me. Then about two or three months in, it occurred to me that these people were not really any smarter than I was. They had better degrees than I did and paid more attention in class, but they weren’t actually any smarter than I was. So I thought, “I think I could learn how to do a lot of this stuff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you start taking work home? Were you taking classes at U of H [University of Houston]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took a couple of correspondence classes. Primarily what I started doing was reverse-engineering the program that we were working on. I would take hunks of it home at night to try to figure out exactly what we were doing. Every day I’d come back in and I’d ask a few questions here, a few questions here.\\n\\n Before long, I knew a whole lot about what we were doing, because nobody else really was reverse-engineering it. You do learn a lot if you do it that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were working on the return trajectories coming back from the Moon. Can you talk about what that is for the readers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of what I was working on was aborts from Earth orbit, but fairly early on I started working on the return to Earth part of it, coming back to the Earth from the Moon. What do you want to know about coming back to the Earth from the Moon?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that involve? For someone who would pick up this transcript, how was that idea developed? What sort of things were you looking at?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.632406299758765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not that you’re coming up with a single trajectory. You’re coming up with the way you’re going to find the trajectory. Because what we were tasked with doing was coming up with a program that could get you home, whatever your situation was. We were called an abort program initially, but we ended up being just the return to Earth, whether it was an abort or not.\\n\\n There was another parallel program going, and I think the intent was you have these two parallel programs going out of MPAD. I think the intent was that they would then pick the one that was better at the end. But the parallel program, my understanding is they never got far enough along to even be competitive. That was shut down fairly early on, and we were it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working on your team from TRW? Do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On my team. Some of us worked on Earth orbital stuff, some of us worked on midcourse correction stuff, and then some of us on return to Earth stuff. We sort of moved between, so it’s a little hard to say at any given time the return to Earth team from the Moon was this number of people. We probably had maybe at one point maybe eight people. It would vary. Three to eight on a particular function."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever go over to MSC and brief MPAD on these ideas that you were coming up with and how things were moving along?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had regular meetings with folks from MPAD. It wasn’t so much briefings. That sounds sort of formal. We had pretty informal meetings with people at MPAD fairly regularly. We would be delivering these intermediate programs and getting calls fairly often about questions about this or the other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever go to any of Bill [Howard W.] Tindall’s meetings on flight techniques?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.702673666398628, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On my team. Some of us worked on Earth orbital stuff, some of us worked on midcourse correction stuff, and then some of us on return to Earth stuff. We sort of moved between, so it’s a little hard to say at any given time the return to Earth team from the Moon was this number of people. We probably had maybe at one point maybe eight people. It would vary. Three to eight on a particular function."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever go over to MSC and brief MPAD on these ideas that you were coming up with and how things were moving along?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had regular meetings with folks from MPAD. It wasn’t so much briefings. That sounds sort of formal. We had pretty informal meetings with people at MPAD fairly regularly. We would be delivering these intermediate programs and getting calls fairly often about questions about this or the other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever go to any of Bill [Howard W.] Tindall’s meetings on flight techniques?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was your office? Were you off-site, or were you located on-site?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.891859629331808, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had regular meetings with folks from MPAD. It wasn’t so much briefings. That sounds sort of formal. We had pretty informal meetings with people at MPAD fairly regularly. We would be delivering these intermediate programs and getting calls fairly often about questions about this or the other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever go to any of Bill [Howard W.] Tindall’s meetings on flight techniques?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was your office? Were you off-site, or were you located on-site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were off-site. We were across the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably one of the buildings that Nassau Bay has now torn down?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.10206625481312, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was your office? Were you off-site, or were you located on-site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were off-site. We were across the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably one of the buildings that Nassau Bay has now torn down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don’t recognize much of anything out here these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know, things have changed. Were you living out here when you worked for MSC?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.891184727570133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were off-site. We were across the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably one of the buildings that Nassau Bay has now torn down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don’t recognize much of anything out here these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know, things have changed. Were you living out here when you worked for MSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the time, yes. I started out, I had a little apartment, I think it was the Portofino Apartments. I had this little efficiency when I first took the job. I hated the fact that I was so far away from the city. After maybe three, four months of living at that little efficiency apartment here, I got an apartment in the Montrose area in Houston.\\n\\n I hated the drive. I loved being in the city, but I hated the drive so I kept moving further out. Then I had an apartment on Old Galveston Highway. I hated that because it was like the worst of both sides. I wasn’t really in the city, and I still had a long drive. So I eventually moved back down in here. I can’t remember the address that I was at, but I had a pretty cool apartment, very close to TRW, just a couple blocks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you walk to work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.76798303063348, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don’t recognize much of anything out here these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know, things have changed. Were you living out here when you worked for MSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the time, yes. I started out, I had a little apartment, I think it was the Portofino Apartments. I had this little efficiency when I first took the job. I hated the fact that I was so far away from the city. After maybe three, four months of living at that little efficiency apartment here, I got an apartment in the Montrose area in Houston.\\n\\n I hated the drive. I loved being in the city, but I hated the drive so I kept moving further out. Then I had an apartment on Old Galveston Highway. I hated that because it was like the worst of both sides. I wasn’t really in the city, and I still had a long drive. So I eventually moved back down in here. I can’t remember the address that I was at, but I had a pretty cool apartment, very close to TRW, just a couple blocks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you walk to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nobody walked anywhere at that time. What are you talking about? There was no such thing as walking to work. Nobody talked about exercise, or nobody I knew talked about exercise at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a dress code where you worked? If so, was there a specific dress code for women?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.742203367370534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of the time, yes. I started out, I had a little apartment, I think it was the Portofino Apartments. I had this little efficiency when I first took the job. I hated the fact that I was so far away from the city. After maybe three, four months of living at that little efficiency apartment here, I got an apartment in the Montrose area in Houston.\\n\\n I hated the drive. I loved being in the city, but I hated the drive so I kept moving further out. Then I had an apartment on Old Galveston Highway. I hated that because it was like the worst of both sides. I wasn’t really in the city, and I still had a long drive. So I eventually moved back down in here. I can’t remember the address that I was at, but I had a pretty cool apartment, very close to TRW, just a couple blocks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you walk to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nobody walked anywhere at that time. What are you talking about? There was no such thing as walking to work. Nobody talked about exercise, or nobody I knew talked about exercise at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a dress code where you worked? If so, was there a specific dress code for women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that I know of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You primarily wore skirts I think I’ve seen in all the photos."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.824670408189482, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nobody walked anywhere at that time. What are you talking about? There was no such thing as walking to work. Nobody talked about exercise, or nobody I knew talked about exercise at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a dress code where you worked? If so, was there a specific dress code for women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that I know of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You primarily wore skirts I think I’ve seen in all the photos."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes I wore a skirt, sometimes I wore slacks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that pretty common for women over at JSC to wear slacks when you were over there? Did you notice that? I know you said there weren’t many women that you worked with. But maybe the admins. I’m just curious if they wore [pants]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.02741156465498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that I know of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You primarily wore skirts I think I’ve seen in all the photos."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes I wore a skirt, sometimes I wore slacks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that pretty common for women over at JSC to wear slacks when you were over there? Did you notice that? I know you said there weren’t many women that you worked with. But maybe the admins. I’m just curious if they wore [pants]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t really see many women, so I don’t know what they wore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m curious what your daily work life was like when you started working out here. A lot of people talk about working seventy-, eighty-hour workweeks. Were you working those kind of crazy hours as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.123931663854565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That consciousness of how the state was protecting me, that’s what they thought they were doing. They were protecting me out of making money. They were protecting me out of getting promoted. They were protecting me out of being part of the team. It really grated on me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were able to do that because you weren’t married, and you didn’t have any kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No other obligations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not like anybody was forced to work all those hours, but it just irritated me a lot because it was just grossly unfair. I felt like it was hurting opportunities for other women."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever bring that up to TRW or anyone at MSC?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.622137856610573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not like anybody was forced to work all those hours, but it just irritated me a lot because it was just grossly unfair. I felt like it was hurting opportunities for other women."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever bring that up to TRW or anyone at MSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because there wasn’t anything they could do about it, this was a state law. What were they going to do about it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of state law was prevalent all across the country at the time, different forms, but that was a very common thing. Once I was promoted and made a member of the technical staff with a different title, I was no longer an hourly worker. I could work eighty hours a week. Does that make any sense? No, that doesn’t make any sense. If they genuinely had to protect my ovaries, which is what I think they thought they were doing, that was their big excuse is we’re somehow or another protecting you so that you can have babies. Why would it make any difference whether I was salaried or not salaried if my ovaries needed protection? It was just so irrational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can get into a whole debate about that, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.024597618456193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because there wasn’t anything they could do about it, this was a state law. What were they going to do about it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of state law was prevalent all across the country at the time, different forms, but that was a very common thing. Once I was promoted and made a member of the technical staff with a different title, I was no longer an hourly worker. I could work eighty hours a week. Does that make any sense? No, that doesn’t make any sense. If they genuinely had to protect my ovaries, which is what I think they thought they were doing, that was their big excuse is we’re somehow or another protecting you so that you can have babies. Why would it make any difference whether I was salaried or not salaried if my ovaries needed protection? It was just so irrational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can get into a whole debate about that, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just so irrational. Also then these women were going home from work and doing the laundry and cooking and all that stuff too. All of it was just irrational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Protecting men more than your ovaries."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.582886242729103, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of state law was prevalent all across the country at the time, different forms, but that was a very common thing. Once I was promoted and made a member of the technical staff with a different title, I was no longer an hourly worker. I could work eighty hours a week. Does that make any sense? No, that doesn’t make any sense. If they genuinely had to protect my ovaries, which is what I think they thought they were doing, that was their big excuse is we’re somehow or another protecting you so that you can have babies. Why would it make any difference whether I was salaried or not salaried if my ovaries needed protection? It was just so irrational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can get into a whole debate about that, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just so irrational. Also then these women were going home from work and doing the laundry and cooking and all that stuff too. All of it was just irrational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Protecting men more than your ovaries."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what my feeling was. That was just the excuse for doing that. It was protecting me out of competing in the workplace. I hardwired around it. That didn’t mean other women had the opportunity to do that, or the audacity, which is also present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can see that spark. When did you get promoted? You mentioned you got promoted."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.869873603032337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just so irrational. Also then these women were going home from work and doing the laundry and cooking and all that stuff too. All of it was just irrational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Protecting men more than your ovaries."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what my feeling was. That was just the excuse for doing that. It was protecting me out of competing in the workplace. I hardwired around it. That didn’t mean other women had the opportunity to do that, or the audacity, which is also present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can see that spark. When did you get promoted? You mentioned you got promoted."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was there six months I had the first review. The guy who was the head of Houston operations told me that he was going to work on getting me promoted at the end of my first year. It’s really more like a year and three months before it happened. What he told me at the time—and I thought that was very interesting too—is he said, “It would have been easier to have fired you and rehired you.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.188748447813708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what my feeling was. That was just the excuse for doing that. It was protecting me out of competing in the workplace. I hardwired around it. That didn’t mean other women had the opportunity to do that, or the audacity, which is also present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can see that spark. When did you get promoted? You mentioned you got promoted."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was there six months I had the first review. The guy who was the head of Houston operations told me that he was going to work on getting me promoted at the end of my first year. It’s really more like a year and three months before it happened. What he told me at the time—and I thought that was very interesting too—is he said, “It would have been easier to have fired you and rehired you.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the pay increase to take me from being a computress to being at the bottom member of the technical staff was so great that everybody in Los Angeles at corporate headquarters was—it didn’t meet the parameters for promotion. It was just too much. He said that he had to keep going and fighting about this, to try to get me paid what I should be paid. They had no mechanism for dealing with the fact that they had hired somebody at a lower level than they should have hired them in the first place.\\n\\n He said, “I could have fired you and rehired you and had no questions. Nothing would have come up.” To do that kind of a promotion with that kind of a pay raise broke all these little rules. He was having to justify it here and justify it there. He said, “And still you were being underpaid, but this was the best I could do.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s nice to have an advocate at least."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.654164942015232, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was there six months I had the first review. The guy who was the head of Houston operations told me that he was going to work on getting me promoted at the end of my first year. It’s really more like a year and three months before it happened. What he told me at the time—and I thought that was very interesting too—is he said, “It would have been easier to have fired you and rehired you.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the pay increase to take me from being a computress to being at the bottom member of the technical staff was so great that everybody in Los Angeles at corporate headquarters was—it didn’t meet the parameters for promotion. It was just too much. He said that he had to keep going and fighting about this, to try to get me paid what I should be paid. They had no mechanism for dealing with the fact that they had hired somebody at a lower level than they should have hired them in the first place.\\n\\n He said, “I could have fired you and rehired you and had no questions. Nothing would have come up.” To do that kind of a promotion with that kind of a pay raise broke all these little rules. He was having to justify it here and justify it there. He said, “And still you were being underpaid, but this was the best I could do.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s nice to have an advocate at least."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was fantastic that I had an advocate. He said, “I’m going to give you as many promotions as I can give you, as fast as I can give them to you, to try to get you up to what you should be earning. I really hate that I have to do it this way.” That was the situation.\\n\\n I think that to some extent that still exists. If women come in and they’re underpaid at the beginning, it’s really hard for them to ever catch up. I had a lot of reasons early on to figure out that there’s gender discrimination in the workforce. I learned it quickly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, it was quite apparent to you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.282405491128035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the pay increase to take me from being a computress to being at the bottom member of the technical staff was so great that everybody in Los Angeles at corporate headquarters was—it didn’t meet the parameters for promotion. It was just too much. He said that he had to keep going and fighting about this, to try to get me paid what I should be paid. They had no mechanism for dealing with the fact that they had hired somebody at a lower level than they should have hired them in the first place.\\n\\n He said, “I could have fired you and rehired you and had no questions. Nothing would have come up.” To do that kind of a promotion with that kind of a pay raise broke all these little rules. He was having to justify it here and justify it there. He said, “And still you were being underpaid, but this was the best I could do.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s nice to have an advocate at least."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was fantastic that I had an advocate. He said, “I’m going to give you as many promotions as I can give you, as fast as I can give them to you, to try to get you up to what you should be earning. I really hate that I have to do it this way.” That was the situation.\\n\\n I think that to some extent that still exists. If women come in and they’re underpaid at the beginning, it’s really hard for them to ever catch up. I had a lot of reasons early on to figure out that there’s gender discrimination in the workforce. I learned it quickly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, it was quite apparent to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I learned it quickly, and it definitely made an impression on me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. How did your position change once you became a member of the technical staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.091561656808928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was fantastic that I had an advocate. He said, “I’m going to give you as many promotions as I can give you, as fast as I can give them to you, to try to get you up to what you should be earning. I really hate that I have to do it this way.” That was the situation.\\n\\n I think that to some extent that still exists. If women come in and they’re underpaid at the beginning, it’s really hard for them to ever catch up. I had a lot of reasons early on to figure out that there’s gender discrimination in the workforce. I learned it quickly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, it was quite apparent to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I learned it quickly, and it definitely made an impression on me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. How did your position change once you became a member of the technical staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn’t really, other than I was taking home a lot more money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were still doing the [exact] same work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 20.10173517423214, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I learned it quickly, and it definitely made an impression on me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. How did your position change once you became a member of the technical staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn’t really, other than I was taking home a lot more money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were still doing the [exact] same work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. To a large extent yes. I was doing the same thing. Because as the group I was in could see that I could do more than what most computresses did, I started doing more. It didn’t really change that much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point were you brought over and told that you would be part of the flight control teams working in the back rooms?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.38962837102902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, to provide backup, to be able to explain why. “Just wait five minutes to do this maneuver.” Things like that.\\n\\n “Is this number actually good?”\\n\\n “Unfortunately yes. It’s a bad number, but it’s accurate. You don’t want to fly that trajectory.” That’s why we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you start doing integrated sims with the flight control teams?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about some of those simulations that you might recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All I remember—first of all, I was tired all the time, because we were still having bugs that we were finding in the program that we were correcting. We were still testing between us and IBM, trying to get stuff finalized in the Real-Time Computer Complex.\\n\\n The main thing I remember about simulations is that the simulations were so much more difficult than the flight, because during the flight actually most things go right. During simulations everything goes wrong. That’s the whole purpose of them. You’re just sitting the whole time going, “Oh my goodness, what are they going to come up with to go wrong?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything that was a gotcha for your team? A big malfunction?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 9.321809301143354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about some of those simulations that you might recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All I remember—first of all, I was tired all the time, because we were still having bugs that we were finding in the program that we were correcting. We were still testing between us and IBM, trying to get stuff finalized in the Real-Time Computer Complex.\\n\\n The main thing I remember about simulations is that the simulations were so much more difficult than the flight, because during the flight actually most things go right. During simulations everything goes wrong. That’s the whole purpose of them. You’re just sitting the whole time going, “Oh my goodness, what are they going to come up with to go wrong?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything that was a gotcha for your team? A big malfunction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. They’re just always coming up with things to go wrong. Most of the time it wasn’t really dealing that much or stressing that much what we were working on. You’re also doing things out of order. One day you’re over there, and it’s at so-and-so hours. Then you go over there, and you’re the day before. Everything is out of order, not a lot of continuity. It’s just a strange kind of thing to go into simulations, but it really prepares you well to deal with the mission. As I said, by the time the mission comes you’ve been stress-tested, that’s for sure. Mainly you feel relief. “Oh gosh, nothing went wrong here. We got through the whole last hour with no dramatic events.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of Apollo 8? When were you in the back rooms? Did you get a chance to go sit up in the front room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.0629618977950805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The computer, you calculate that based on the data that you get. What you know is that you may have to correct in terms of the orbit. You may be able to stay in orbit, or you may have to immediately do a return to Earth. Just depends on what you’re going to see. To a certain extent we did, but you basically are having to pour it into the computer to see what numbers are going to come out of the computer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you work in the staff support room for 8? Was it primarily just during the lunar portion or were you there for the entire mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there for the lunar portion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the end of this mission I understand that Frank Borman mentioned your name. Did you do any work with the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not directly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did he get your name? How did he know about your role?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.5144021086612005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there for the lunar portion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the end of this mission I understand that Frank Borman mentioned your name. Did you do any work with the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not directly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did he get your name? How did he know about your role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the press. I don’t know, but I had gotten a lot of press attention because I was the first woman. The women’s rights movement was bubbling up across the country at the time, and I’m sure people were asking, “Where are the women?” I was the woman that NASA drug out.\\n\\n “Oh, this is a woman.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she’s cute."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.016002342956889, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not directly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did he get your name? How did he know about your role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the press. I don’t know, but I had gotten a lot of press attention because I was the first woman. The women’s rights movement was bubbling up across the country at the time, and I’m sure people were asking, “Where are the women?” I was the woman that NASA drug out.\\n\\n “Oh, this is a woman.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she’s cute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, “This is a woman; she’s young.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered if you would talk about that, because it seems like that would eat up a lot of your time with media interviews and requests. Were you given any assistance by Public Affairs? Was there any guidance?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.573335936618766, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the press. I don’t know, but I had gotten a lot of press attention because I was the first woman. The women’s rights movement was bubbling up across the country at the time, and I’m sure people were asking, “Where are the women?” I was the woman that NASA drug out.\\n\\n “Oh, this is a woman.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she’s cute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, “This is a woman; she’s young.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered if you would talk about that, because it seems like that would eat up a lot of your time with media interviews and requests. Were you given any assistance by Public Affairs? Was there any guidance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "None, not any real guidance, no. There was a Public Affairs guy at TRW too. No, they just called and said, “Would you talk to so-and-so?”\\n\\n “Okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No one said, “Be sure to talk about this great thing”? Was anyone encouraging you to say certain things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.192595485131962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, “This is a woman; she’s young.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered if you would talk about that, because it seems like that would eat up a lot of your time with media interviews and requests. Were you given any assistance by Public Affairs? Was there any guidance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "None, not any real guidance, no. There was a Public Affairs guy at TRW too. No, they just called and said, “Would you talk to so-and-so?”\\n\\n “Okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No one said, “Be sure to talk about this great thing”? Was anyone encouraging you to say certain things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the only thing I remember was that at some point I said something about space trash, and they didn’t want me to talk about space trash. I don’t remember what the question was and I don’t remember who it was. Somebody asked me something about hazards up there. I think I said something about the thing that made me the most nervous and was really unaccountable was that we had this trash running around up there and nobody really was tracking every bit of it. They didn’t like to emphasize that there might be real hazards out there.\\n\\n They changed our name. We weren’t called the abort program anymore because that suggested it might be dangerous. We were initially called abort support. They decided they didn’t like that for PR [public relations] reasons, so we were changed to the return to Earth team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds a little more positive."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.8806616501466245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "None, not any real guidance, no. There was a Public Affairs guy at TRW too. No, they just called and said, “Would you talk to so-and-so?”\\n\\n “Okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No one said, “Be sure to talk about this great thing”? Was anyone encouraging you to say certain things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the only thing I remember was that at some point I said something about space trash, and they didn’t want me to talk about space trash. I don’t remember what the question was and I don’t remember who it was. Somebody asked me something about hazards up there. I think I said something about the thing that made me the most nervous and was really unaccountable was that we had this trash running around up there and nobody really was tracking every bit of it. They didn’t like to emphasize that there might be real hazards out there.\\n\\n They changed our name. We weren’t called the abort program anymore because that suggested it might be dangerous. We were initially called abort support. They decided they didn’t like that for PR [public relations] reasons, so we were changed to the return to Earth team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds a little more positive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, let’s not mention the fact that we might have an engine that blows up on the way to the Moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time were you spending fielding all these interview requests from reporters at the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.422957389051805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the only thing I remember was that at some point I said something about space trash, and they didn’t want me to talk about space trash. I don’t remember what the question was and I don’t remember who it was. Somebody asked me something about hazards up there. I think I said something about the thing that made me the most nervous and was really unaccountable was that we had this trash running around up there and nobody really was tracking every bit of it. They didn’t like to emphasize that there might be real hazards out there.\\n\\n They changed our name. We weren’t called the abort program anymore because that suggested it might be dangerous. We were initially called abort support. They decided they didn’t like that for PR [public relations] reasons, so we were changed to the return to Earth team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds a little more positive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, let’s not mention the fact that we might have an engine that blows up on the way to the Moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time were you spending fielding all these interview requests from reporters at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It’s not like it was going on every day but several hours a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were they most interested in other than the fact that here’s a novelty, a cute girl?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.025508210057561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, let’s not mention the fact that we might have an engine that blows up on the way to the Moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time were you spending fielding all these interview requests from reporters at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It’s not like it was going on every day but several hours a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were they most interested in other than the fact that here’s a novelty, a cute girl?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what they were most interested in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No consistent questions or topics that they asked you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.695009122286178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It’s not like it was going on every day but several hours a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were they most interested in other than the fact that here’s a novelty, a cute girl?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what they were most interested in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No consistent questions or topics that they asked you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just the sheer amazement that a woman was doing this. It just was strange. I sort of felt like, “I’ve got two arms and two legs. I’m like everybody else down here. What difference does this make that I’m female instead of male.” It was bizarre."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask about flight control, because so many people have written about flight control, and how it was sort of like this brotherhood. Here you are, the sole woman. Was there much camaraderie in terms of including you in some of the pranks and antics and after-hours things that guys would do like meeting up at the Flintlock or going out?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.327787913651309, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what they were most interested in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No consistent questions or topics that they asked you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just the sheer amazement that a woman was doing this. It just was strange. I sort of felt like, “I’ve got two arms and two legs. I’m like everybody else down here. What difference does this make that I’m female instead of male.” It was bizarre."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask about flight control, because so many people have written about flight control, and how it was sort of like this brotherhood. Here you are, the sole woman. Was there much camaraderie in terms of including you in some of the pranks and antics and after-hours things that guys would do like meeting up at the Flintlock or going out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, we were contractors, so we weren’t part of that. The MOCR itself, I think that’s primarily about the people that are in the MOCR all the time, not really the people that are in the support team. We had our own camaraderie so to speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.919764348501454, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just the sheer amazement that a woman was doing this. It just was strange. I sort of felt like, “I’ve got two arms and two legs. I’m like everybody else down here. What difference does this make that I’m female instead of male.” It was bizarre."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wanted to ask about flight control, because so many people have written about flight control, and how it was sort of like this brotherhood. Here you are, the sole woman. Was there much camaraderie in terms of including you in some of the pranks and antics and after-hours things that guys would do like meeting up at the Flintlock or going out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, we were contractors, so we weren’t part of that. The MOCR itself, I think that’s primarily about the people that are in the MOCR all the time, not really the people that are in the support team. We had our own camaraderie so to speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m just saying that we would go—the Singing Wheel was a favorite barbecue joint. We’d go have beer and barbecue occasionally at the Singing Wheel. A lot of the guys that I worked with had sailboats. To me the whole sailing thing was a little strange, but they were very into sailboats. To me it was very strange because I think they really liked to work on the boats more than they liked to actually sail, which I didn’t quite understand. They were always tinkering with these boats; they were hardly ever sailing these boats. Just made no sense to me. Why would you want to? As soon as they had gotten the barnacles off they were doing something else, they were painting it or this or that with the boats. They were never sailing the boats. I just didn’t quite get all that. They loved to tinker with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a great place to have a boat, just right off Galveston Bay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.577515942779393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, we were contractors, so we weren’t part of that. The MOCR itself, I think that’s primarily about the people that are in the MOCR all the time, not really the people that are in the support team. We had our own camaraderie so to speak."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m just saying that we would go—the Singing Wheel was a favorite barbecue joint. We’d go have beer and barbecue occasionally at the Singing Wheel. A lot of the guys that I worked with had sailboats. To me the whole sailing thing was a little strange, but they were very into sailboats. To me it was very strange because I think they really liked to work on the boats more than they liked to actually sail, which I didn’t quite understand. They were always tinkering with these boats; they were hardly ever sailing these boats. Just made no sense to me. Why would you want to? As soon as they had gotten the barnacles off they were doing something else, they were painting it or this or that with the boats. They were never sailing the boats. I just didn’t quite get all that. They loved to tinker with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a great place to have a boat, just right off Galveston Bay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Wherever we were going, a lot of times we would have to end up going by the boat. Somebody’d gotten a new boat, or more often they’d gotten an old boat that they were now tinkering with. We were always going off to see the boat, not to sail on the boat, but to see the boat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were the guys that you hung out with around your age at that point? Or was it more a variety?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.086128825310436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m just saying that we would go—the Singing Wheel was a favorite barbecue joint. We’d go have beer and barbecue occasionally at the Singing Wheel. A lot of the guys that I worked with had sailboats. To me the whole sailing thing was a little strange, but they were very into sailboats. To me it was very strange because I think they really liked to work on the boats more than they liked to actually sail, which I didn’t quite understand. They were always tinkering with these boats; they were hardly ever sailing these boats. Just made no sense to me. Why would you want to? As soon as they had gotten the barnacles off they were doing something else, they were painting it or this or that with the boats. They were never sailing the boats. I just didn’t quite get all that. They loved to tinker with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a great place to have a boat, just right off Galveston Bay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Wherever we were going, a lot of times we would have to end up going by the boat. Somebody’d gotten a new boat, or more often they’d gotten an old boat that they were now tinkering with. We were always going off to see the boat, not to sail on the boat, but to see the boat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were the guys that you hung out with around your age at that point? Or was it more a variety?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were a little older than me. I was younger than most everybody. I was twenty-five, twenty-six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s around the age Gene Kranz always talks about, the age of folks in the MOCR. What did you think of working in such a hypermasculine space as the MOCR? Being a feminist and seeing what you saw?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.6512542503449295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Wherever we were going, a lot of times we would have to end up going by the boat. Somebody’d gotten a new boat, or more often they’d gotten an old boat that they were now tinkering with. We were always going off to see the boat, not to sail on the boat, but to see the boat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were the guys that you hung out with around your age at that point? Or was it more a variety?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were a little older than me. I was younger than most everybody. I was twenty-five, twenty-six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s around the age Gene Kranz always talks about, the age of folks in the MOCR. What did you think of working in such a hypermasculine space as the MOCR? Being a feminist and seeing what you saw?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the object of a lot of attention, and that was not always comfortable. At the same time I think the Retrofire officers, I had the distinct impression that they were protecting me. I think they decided that I was a useful asset, and they did not want me harassed. So I didn’t experience too much harassment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you experience some? You said “too much.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.279171389272144, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were a little older than me. I was younger than most everybody. I was twenty-five, twenty-six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s around the age Gene Kranz always talks about, the age of folks in the MOCR. What did you think of working in such a hypermasculine space as the MOCR? Being a feminist and seeing what you saw?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the object of a lot of attention, and that was not always comfortable. At the same time I think the Retrofire officers, I had the distinct impression that they were protecting me. I think they decided that I was a useful asset, and they did not want me harassed. So I didn’t experience too much harassment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you experience some? You said “too much.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had all of these channels. We had these video screens, and then we had headphones. You could turn the dial, and you could listen to all of these communication channels. Throughout the building, they had cameras all over the place.\\n\\n I remember hearing some chatter. I would hear this chatter occasionally about, “Look on channel whatever.” I was always busy, so I wasn’t looking on channel whatever. I was looking at what I was supposed to be looking at. One day I thought, “I wonder what the hell is on channel whatever?” I turned it on, and it was a camera that was pointed at me. I was on channel whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it was nice to look at you. Nice break."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.976857099191271, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the object of a lot of attention, and that was not always comfortable. At the same time I think the Retrofire officers, I had the distinct impression that they were protecting me. I think they decided that I was a useful asset, and they did not want me harassed. So I didn’t experience too much harassment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you experience some? You said “too much.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had all of these channels. We had these video screens, and then we had headphones. You could turn the dial, and you could listen to all of these communication channels. Throughout the building, they had cameras all over the place.\\n\\n I remember hearing some chatter. I would hear this chatter occasionally about, “Look on channel whatever.” I was always busy, so I wasn’t looking on channel whatever. I was looking at what I was supposed to be looking at. One day I thought, “I wonder what the hell is on channel whatever?” I turned it on, and it was a camera that was pointed at me. I was on channel whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it was nice to look at you. Nice break."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You sit there and you go, “Have I been scratching my butt, picking my nose?” Talk about making you feel self-conscious. You’re sitting there going, “These people have been watching me all this time?” I had no idea that people were watching me like that. That was very off-putting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever feel any sort of concern that you were the only woman and if you screwed up maybe in the future there wouldn’t be an opportunity for other women to work in the room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.752063443545857, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had all of these channels. We had these video screens, and then we had headphones. You could turn the dial, and you could listen to all of these communication channels. Throughout the building, they had cameras all over the place.\\n\\n I remember hearing some chatter. I would hear this chatter occasionally about, “Look on channel whatever.” I was always busy, so I wasn’t looking on channel whatever. I was looking at what I was supposed to be looking at. One day I thought, “I wonder what the hell is on channel whatever?” I turned it on, and it was a camera that was pointed at me. I was on channel whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it was nice to look at you. Nice break."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You sit there and you go, “Have I been scratching my butt, picking my nose?” Talk about making you feel self-conscious. You’re sitting there going, “These people have been watching me all this time?” I had no idea that people were watching me like that. That was very off-putting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever feel any sort of concern that you were the only woman and if you screwed up maybe in the future there wouldn’t be an opportunity for other women to work in the room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did feel some of that. I felt like I had to know my stuff. I had to do a good job, that’s part of why I worked so hard. I’ve read about the syndrome too. You have the impostor syndrome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I’ve read that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.613403826162063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You sit there and you go, “Have I been scratching my butt, picking my nose?” Talk about making you feel self-conscious. You’re sitting there going, “These people have been watching me all this time?” I had no idea that people were watching me like that. That was very off-putting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever feel any sort of concern that you were the only woman and if you screwed up maybe in the future there wouldn’t be an opportunity for other women to work in the room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did feel some of that. I felt like I had to know my stuff. I had to do a good job, that’s part of why I worked so hard. I’ve read about the syndrome too. You have the impostor syndrome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I’ve read that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think now that I know more about it, probably everybody over there had a little bit of the impostor syndrome going on in terms of, “Are they going to suddenly discover I don’t know nearly as much as I need to know?” We all probably had some of that going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were the Retrofire officers that you were working with? You mentioned they were protecting you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.126004251291181, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did feel some of that. I felt like I had to know my stuff. I had to do a good job, that’s part of why I worked so hard. I’ve read about the syndrome too. You have the impostor syndrome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I’ve read that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think now that I know more about it, probably everybody over there had a little bit of the impostor syndrome going on in terms of, “Are they going to suddenly discover I don’t know nearly as much as I need to know?” We all probably had some of that going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were the Retrofire officers that you were working with? You mentioned they were protecting you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John [S.] Llewellyn, Jerry [C.] Bostick, and I think the third one was [Charles F.] Dieterich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "John Llewellyn is kind of a legend."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.695560279212423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think now that I know more about it, probably everybody over there had a little bit of the impostor syndrome going on in terms of, “Are they going to suddenly discover I don’t know nearly as much as I need to know?” We all probably had some of that going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were the Retrofire officers that you were working with? You mentioned they were protecting you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John [S.] Llewellyn, Jerry [C.] Bostick, and I think the third one was [Charles F.] Dieterich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "John Llewellyn is kind of a legend."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Notorious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Can you talk about him and working with him?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.328400310236026, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John [S.] Llewellyn, Jerry [C.] Bostick, and I think the third one was [Charles F.] Dieterich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "John Llewellyn is kind of a legend."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Notorious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Can you talk about him and working with him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the thing is that he’s the one that you would probably most expect to be giving me trouble, but he was the most protective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think that was?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.0315559002622505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Notorious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Can you talk about him and working with him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the thing is that he’s the one that you would probably most expect to be giving me trouble, but he was the most protective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think that was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, I think he viewed me as an asset. I think he knew that he needed me to help him understand that program. He was sort of a legendary cowboy figure, but I didn’t experience that from him at all. I knew of that reputation, but that was not what I experienced at all from him. He was, as I said, very protective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned all this attention that you were given and that it could be off-putting to some of these guys I would think. Did anyone on your team from TRW ever make comments to you about all this attention, all this media, press?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.812839889180278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the thing is that he’s the one that you would probably most expect to be giving me trouble, but he was the most protective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think that was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, I think he viewed me as an asset. I think he knew that he needed me to help him understand that program. He was sort of a legendary cowboy figure, but I didn’t experience that from him at all. I knew of that reputation, but that was not what I experienced at all from him. He was, as I said, very protective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned all this attention that you were given and that it could be off-putting to some of these guys I would think. Did anyone on your team from TRW ever make comments to you about all this attention, all this media, press?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit. Some people were a little concerned. They were concerned I might be exploited and probably to some extent I was. My feeling was that that was beneficial to women to see a woman in that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you also received a bunch of letters from various men. Would you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.569822099089198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, I think he viewed me as an asset. I think he knew that he needed me to help him understand that program. He was sort of a legendary cowboy figure, but I didn’t experience that from him at all. I knew of that reputation, but that was not what I experienced at all from him. He was, as I said, very protective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned all this attention that you were given and that it could be off-putting to some of these guys I would think. Did anyone on your team from TRW ever make comments to you about all this attention, all this media, press?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit. Some people were a little concerned. They were concerned I might be exploited and probably to some extent I was. My feeling was that that was beneficial to women to see a woman in that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you also received a bunch of letters from various men. Would you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over the world. I wish I still had them. I had them in a storage unit, and I don’t know what happened. It was not one of these temperature-controlled storage units. I went out to look at it one time, and it had all these bugs in there. It was scary. I disposed of that.\\n\\n Yes, I had a whole box of letters from people all over the world, a lot of men, proposing marriage. I figured that most of them wanted to marry an American woman so that they could get citizenship. A lot of letters from little girls too, that they didn’t know a woman could do this and were very excited.\\n\\n Where I live now I think I have the world’s worst post office. I may not. Everybody probably thinks they have the worst post office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra thinks she has the worst.\n\nI’ve got [the worst]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.29980233232133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit. Some people were a little concerned. They were concerned I might be exploited and probably to some extent I was. My feeling was that that was beneficial to women to see a woman in that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you also received a bunch of letters from various men. Would you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over the world. I wish I still had them. I had them in a storage unit, and I don’t know what happened. It was not one of these temperature-controlled storage units. I went out to look at it one time, and it had all these bugs in there. It was scary. I disposed of that.\\n\\n Yes, I had a whole box of letters from people all over the world, a lot of men, proposing marriage. I figured that most of them wanted to marry an American woman so that they could get citizenship. A lot of letters from little girls too, that they didn’t know a woman could do this and were very excited.\\n\\n Where I live now I think I have the world’s worst post office. I may not. Everybody probably thinks they have the worst post office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra thinks she has the worst.\n\nI’ve got [the worst]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I have the worst post office in the world, because letters that are properly addressed to me don’t arrive, and that’s not an infrequent occurrence. I get people calling me up. “Do you not live at?”\\n\\n “That is my address.”\\n\\n And yet, I got letters that were addressed to “Poppy, Space Center.” That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They somehow made it here."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.110891480357033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over the world. I wish I still had them. I had them in a storage unit, and I don’t know what happened. It was not one of these temperature-controlled storage units. I went out to look at it one time, and it had all these bugs in there. It was scary. I disposed of that.\\n\\n Yes, I had a whole box of letters from people all over the world, a lot of men, proposing marriage. I figured that most of them wanted to marry an American woman so that they could get citizenship. A lot of letters from little girls too, that they didn’t know a woman could do this and were very excited.\\n\\n Where I live now I think I have the world’s worst post office. I may not. Everybody probably thinks they have the worst post office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra thinks she has the worst.\n\nI’ve got [the worst]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I have the worst post office in the world, because letters that are properly addressed to me don’t arrive, and that’s not an infrequent occurrence. I get people calling me up. “Do you not live at?”\\n\\n “That is my address.”\\n\\n And yet, I got letters that were addressed to “Poppy, Space Center.” That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They somehow made it here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They arrived at TRW in my mail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like Santa Claus."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:144", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.789879422618924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I have the worst post office in the world, because letters that are properly addressed to me don’t arrive, and that’s not an infrequent occurrence. I get people calling me up. “Do you not live at?”\\n\\n “That is my address.”\\n\\n And yet, I got letters that were addressed to “Poppy, Space Center.” That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They somehow made it here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They arrived at TRW in my mail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like Santa Claus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just found it amazing. They didn’t even say USA sometimes, just Space Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s how well-known you were. Wow!\n\nThat’s amazing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:146", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.5443104695765815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They arrived at TRW in my mail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like Santa Claus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just found it amazing. They didn’t even say USA sometimes, just Space Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s how well-known you were. Wow!\n\nThat’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the same time mail with my full address does not show up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a problem."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:148", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.382567188418424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just found it amazing. They didn’t even say USA sometimes, just Space Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s how well-known you were. Wow!\n\nThat’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the same time mail with my full address does not show up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a problem."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bizarre things happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "TRW decided, I guess you were so well-known, to create an ad that included your photo. What did you think of that when TRW approached you with that idea?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.313963542687137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the same time mail with my full address does not show up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a problem."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bizarre things happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "TRW decided, I guess you were so well-known, to create an ad that included your photo. What did you think of that when TRW approached you with that idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was pretty cool. What they told me was that I was the only employee they had ever featured in an ad and that it had the highest readership of any of their ads that they had ever done. I thought that was cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No complaints from you about that idea?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.348848380763485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bizarre things happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "TRW decided, I guess you were so well-known, to create an ad that included your photo. What did you think of that when TRW approached you with that idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was pretty cool. What they told me was that I was the only employee they had ever featured in an ad and that it had the highest readership of any of their ads that they had ever done. I thought that was cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No complaints from you about that idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I thought it was interesting. They wanted to do that, that’s fine with me. But remember, think of the asset that that meant. Think how hard it would have been to fire me. I had become this women’s rights person who was now beginning to say things that were controversial. I viewed that as insurance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed that you became active in the women’s strike in Houston while you were still working down here. Would you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.054275978626094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought it was pretty cool. What they told me was that I was the only employee they had ever featured in an ad and that it had the highest readership of any of their ads that they had ever done. I thought that was cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No complaints from you about that idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I thought it was interesting. They wanted to do that, that’s fine with me. But remember, think of the asset that that meant. Think how hard it would have been to fire me. I had become this women’s rights person who was now beginning to say things that were controversial. I viewed that as insurance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed that you became active in the women’s strike in Houston while you were still working down here. Would you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d been looking for the National Organization for Women. I’d read about the women’s movement. I couldn’t find them. I didn’t have a lot of time to look, but I just called directory information. That was as far as I went.\\n\\n I saw some newspaper article they were going to be picketing at the Federal Building on August 26th, 1970, and I went, “I know where they’ll be.” I went in to my boss and I said, “I’m not going to be here that day.” I went down to the Federal Building and picketed. It was the first time I’d ever picketed. Next thing I know, I was a member and head of the PR committee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone else from the Space Center go with you to picket?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.838084420695659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I thought it was interesting. They wanted to do that, that’s fine with me. But remember, think of the asset that that meant. Think how hard it would have been to fire me. I had become this women’s rights person who was now beginning to say things that were controversial. I viewed that as insurance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed that you became active in the women’s strike in Houston while you were still working down here. Would you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d been looking for the National Organization for Women. I’d read about the women’s movement. I couldn’t find them. I didn’t have a lot of time to look, but I just called directory information. That was as far as I went.\\n\\n I saw some newspaper article they were going to be picketing at the Federal Building on August 26th, 1970, and I went, “I know where they’ll be.” I went in to my boss and I said, “I’m not going to be here that day.” I went down to the Federal Building and picketed. It was the first time I’d ever picketed. Next thing I know, I was a member and head of the PR committee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone else from the Space Center go with you to picket?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was feminism a big issue at the Space Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.565536321846492, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was feminism a big issue at the Space Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I just knew that I knew there was discrimination in the workforce, and I figured if anybody could talk about it, I could. I didn’t have to worry about losing my job. They’d run an ad with my picture. It would be a real embarrassment if they were to fire me for being outspoken about things like that.\\n\\n It wasn’t that I was attacking them. In many ways I was treated very fairly. The discrimination that I experienced was not so much that I felt like the company was discriminating against me as it was that the culture was discriminating against me. Like this nine, fifty-four thing. That wasn’t TRW’s fault. That was the state’s fault. This thing of underemployment, this was systemic. It was a systemic thing. It was not something that was targeted at me individually. It was a systemic problem.\\n\\n I worked for a very progressive company. First of all, they promoted me and I got to do all this stuff, which was incredibly unusual in the first place. So I was very advantaged, very privileged, in lots of ways. I also felt like I could probably speak out in ways that other people might not feel so safe speaking out. So I should, and I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You continued working. You worked on Apollo 10, 12, and 13. Is there anything that stuck out for you in terms of those missions? Were you doing different things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thirteen obviously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were down there for the launch and didn’t know what had happened till Jules Bergman got ahold of you, I understand."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.517262579829435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I just knew that I knew there was discrimination in the workforce, and I figured if anybody could talk about it, I could. I didn’t have to worry about losing my job. They’d run an ad with my picture. It would be a real embarrassment if they were to fire me for being outspoken about things like that.\\n\\n It wasn’t that I was attacking them. In many ways I was treated very fairly. The discrimination that I experienced was not so much that I felt like the company was discriminating against me as it was that the culture was discriminating against me. Like this nine, fifty-four thing. That wasn’t TRW’s fault. That was the state’s fault. This thing of underemployment, this was systemic. It was a systemic thing. It was not something that was targeted at me individually. It was a systemic problem.\\n\\n I worked for a very progressive company. First of all, they promoted me and I got to do all this stuff, which was incredibly unusual in the first place. So I was very advantaged, very privileged, in lots of ways. I also felt like I could probably speak out in ways that other people might not feel so safe speaking out. So I should, and I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You continued working. You worked on Apollo 10, 12, and 13. Is there anything that stuck out for you in terms of those missions? Were you doing different things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thirteen obviously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were down there for the launch and didn’t know what had happened till Jules Bergman got ahold of you, I understand."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was back in Houston by that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of that launch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.169459975098064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was back in Houston by that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of that launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was delayed because one of the crewmembers had measles. I’d gone down there, and I wasn’t sure whether they were going to launch or not. Then they finally did.\\n\\n It was really incredible to be there at a launch. The thing I most remember about liftoff of the spacecraft, you don’t really have a sense of that when you’re watching the TV, is that you can feel the vibrations. It’s almost like being in a small earthquake. I’m not sure whether the vibrations are coming—it’s like the sound, it’s like your whole body is vibrating as they’re lifting off. Very strange experience. That’s what I remember the most was feeling these vibrations going through your whole body, and the sound that’s coming out from it.\\n\\n I flew home and sitting at home I see something on the TV. There’s a problem. I get a call from Bergman. I think that was really funny. He had my home number, but the people at the Control Center couldn’t find my number, which I thought was weird. It was sitting there under the glass right there, behind this glass. It was there. All trying to figure out how to reach me. They don’t know how to reach me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bergman calls. “Poppy, how much fuel is it going to take to get home from this?”\\n\\n “I don’t know, tell me where they are.” He told me where they were and I said, “Well, they’re going to have to fly around the backside of the Moon. Sorry, can’t turn around from there. Got to go the rest of the way. It’s going to cost too much fuel. Try to turn around. You’ll be unstable orbit.”\\n\\n I thought, “Well, if Bergman is calling me about this maybe I ought to go over there, see what’s going on in the Control Center.”\\n\\n I walk in. “We’ve been wondering how to get you!”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you stay there till splashdown?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.971824382850569, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember. No, I wouldn’t have been there till splashdown. I would have been an unconscious body if I’d been there till splashdown, because they were still approaching the Moon at that point.\\n\\n Worked on several approaches to how we were going to deal with the return to Earth. The flight controllers, they wanted to not do the maneuver on the backside of the Moon. They were worried about that. That would have been the most efficient way to do the maneuver but the concern was that they really didn’t know what had gone wrong. Of course they didn’t have much of a clue about that until they did separation right before reentry, and they saw that a big hunk of the back end of the spacecraft was gone. They wanted to do it while they had signal. The maneuver was really done, the return to Earth was done, while they had signal. We had the easy job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why would you characterize it as easy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Return to Earth worked just like it was supposed to work. We had simulated that. We had simulated using the descent engine, done simulations with the ascent engine. We’d done simulations with all those various engines. We were ready to go on all of that. The people that had the ongoing problem were the people dealing with the environmental stuff, with the overheating and the oxygen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re in the midst of restoring the MOCR right now, and one of the guys who was there, Ed [Edward I.] Fendell, often talks about what the MOCR smelled like after 13. What are your memories of that? Did anything stand out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You talking about the cigar smoke?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cigar. Body smell. Pizza."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.968693758722853, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Return to Earth worked just like it was supposed to work. We had simulated that. We had simulated using the descent engine, done simulations with the ascent engine. We’d done simulations with all those various engines. We were ready to go on all of that. The people that had the ongoing problem were the people dealing with the environmental stuff, with the overheating and the oxygen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re in the midst of restoring the MOCR right now, and one of the guys who was there, Ed [Edward I.] Fendell, often talks about what the MOCR smelled like after 13. What are your memories of that? Did anything stand out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You talking about the cigar smoke?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cigar. Body smell. Pizza."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember. I don’t even know if I even walked in the MOCR during 13. I was back in the SSR. It always smelled like cigar smoke in there. It was not that filthy in the staff support room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the crew got back, you actually received the Presidential Medal of Freedom."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.076326398580948, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You talking about the cigar smoke?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cigar. Body smell. Pizza."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember. I don’t even know if I even walked in the MOCR during 13. I was back in the SSR. It always smelled like cigar smoke in there. It was not that filthy in the staff support room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the crew got back, you actually received the Presidential Medal of Freedom."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole team did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that mean to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 11.195918220645497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember. I don’t even know if I even walked in the MOCR during 13. I was back in the SSR. It always smelled like cigar smoke in there. It was not that filthy in the staff support room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the crew got back, you actually received the Presidential Medal of Freedom."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole team did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that mean to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It came from [President Richard M.] Nixon, so it didn’t mean a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still have it or was it with those letters with the bugs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.773242467383886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole team did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that mean to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It came from [President Richard M.] Nixon, so it didn’t mean a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still have it or was it with those letters with the bugs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know where it is. It meant a lot, and it didn’t mean a lot. I had really bad opinions about Nixon. It wasn’t just Nixon; it was that I had pretty keen memories that when Apollo 11 lifted off they were handing out pink slips at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. I felt a little hypocrisy in all of this. At the end we were flying out missions where they were scavenging parts from other spacecraft. It was obvious that once we flew 11 they were going to chop the program tremendously. It wasn’t just about Nixon being Nixon, it was about the whole thing, that they were really dismantling the program.\\n\\n I had already done some work on going to Mars, real preliminary work for MPAD. I found it very disheartening that we weren’t going to continue to explore space. We were all heroes, but we really weren’t going to continue to explore space. Just the hypocrisy of all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you start working at all on Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.3036027415376505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It came from [President Richard M.] Nixon, so it didn’t mean a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still have it or was it with those letters with the bugs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know where it is. It meant a lot, and it didn’t mean a lot. I had really bad opinions about Nixon. It wasn’t just Nixon; it was that I had pretty keen memories that when Apollo 11 lifted off they were handing out pink slips at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. I felt a little hypocrisy in all of this. At the end we were flying out missions where they were scavenging parts from other spacecraft. It was obvious that once we flew 11 they were going to chop the program tremendously. It wasn’t just about Nixon being Nixon, it was about the whole thing, that they were really dismantling the program.\\n\\n I had already done some work on going to Mars, real preliminary work for MPAD. I found it very disheartening that we weren’t going to continue to explore space. We were all heroes, but we really weren’t going to continue to explore space. Just the hypocrisy of all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you start working at all on Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did a tiny bit of work on Shuttle, I didn’t do much. TRW lost its major contract at NASA. I went out and built better bombs out in California. I hated that. I worked on antiballistic missile defense, just hated it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering how you got to California. I had read that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.078521903132901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did a tiny bit of work on Shuttle, I didn’t do much. TRW lost its major contract at NASA. I went out and built better bombs out in California. I hated that. I worked on antiballistic missile defense, just hated it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering how you got to California. I had read that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I went out. As I said I worked on the antiballistic missile weapons system. That was such a disheartening thing as far as I was concerned.\\n\\n When I was working on the Apollo Program, as scary as it was to think about what you were doing, flying, and what could go wrong, because I really was quite aware of what all could go wrong, you’re working on this thing that you can really hardly wait for it to happen. You want so much for it to happen. You want your work to be used.\\n\\n Then I went to working on a program where the biggest nightmare for the world would be if they ever used what I was working on. A true nightmare scenario where nobody survives except the roaches or something. It’s just horrible if you think about what really goes on if you have antiballistic missile weapons systems being deployed and shooting nuclear weapons at other nuclear weapons coming in. As I said, you may have a couple human beings, a handful of human beings, down hundreds of feet underneath the Earth that survive. All the zebras are gone and everything else. I am convinced the roaches and the fleas would probably survive. They do seem to have fantastic survival systems. But other than that, what would be left? I didn’t like working on something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you managed to come back to Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened with TRW? Because you were continuing with TRW, were you not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.531691003481001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I went out. As I said I worked on the antiballistic missile weapons system. That was such a disheartening thing as far as I was concerned.\\n\\n When I was working on the Apollo Program, as scary as it was to think about what you were doing, flying, and what could go wrong, because I really was quite aware of what all could go wrong, you’re working on this thing that you can really hardly wait for it to happen. You want so much for it to happen. You want your work to be used.\\n\\n Then I went to working on a program where the biggest nightmare for the world would be if they ever used what I was working on. A true nightmare scenario where nobody survives except the roaches or something. It’s just horrible if you think about what really goes on if you have antiballistic missile weapons systems being deployed and shooting nuclear weapons at other nuclear weapons coming in. As I said, you may have a couple human beings, a handful of human beings, down hundreds of feet underneath the Earth that survive. All the zebras are gone and everything else. I am convinced the roaches and the fleas would probably survive. They do seem to have fantastic survival systems. But other than that, what would be left? I didn’t like working on something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you managed to come back to Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened with TRW? Because you were continuing with TRW, were you not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They had a contract, and I came back. I didn’t actually get to do very much work when I came back because I got loaned to the mayor’s office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to ask about that, because that sounded like such an interesting position to be in, to be working for an aerospace contractor but being the first women’s advocate in the city of Houston. How did that work out with your employer?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.0352122260900005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened with TRW? Because you were continuing with TRW, were you not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They had a contract, and I came back. I didn’t actually get to do very much work when I came back because I got loaned to the mayor’s office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to ask about that, because that sounded like such an interesting position to be in, to be working for an aerospace contractor but being the first women’s advocate in the city of Houston. How did that work out with your employer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They loaned me. The mayor’s office wanted to put me in as the women’s advocate but they didn’t have budget to match my salary, and I was not willing to take a gigantic cut in pay. I don’t believe any woman should take a gigantic cut in pay. TRW said they would fill the gap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s very progressive of them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.4835691401, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They had a contract, and I came back. I didn’t actually get to do very much work when I came back because I got loaned to the mayor’s office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to ask about that, because that sounded like such an interesting position to be in, to be working for an aerospace contractor but being the first women’s advocate in the city of Houston. How did that work out with your employer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They loaned me. The mayor’s office wanted to put me in as the women’s advocate but they didn’t have budget to match my salary, and I was not willing to take a gigantic cut in pay. I don’t believe any woman should take a gigantic cut in pay. TRW said they would fill the gap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s very progressive of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought so, especially since they had had so much cuts to their budget. But they did fill the gap, and I was at the mayor’s office for eighteen months, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You accomplished quite a bit during that time, hiring of women firefighters and police."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 4.981743489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They loaned me. The mayor’s office wanted to put me in as the women’s advocate but they didn’t have budget to match my salary, and I was not willing to take a gigantic cut in pay. I don’t believe any woman should take a gigantic cut in pay. TRW said they would fill the gap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s very progressive of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought so, especially since they had had so much cuts to their budget. But they did fill the gap, and I was at the mayor’s office for eighteen months, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You accomplished quite a bit during that time, hiring of women firefighters and police."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Police. Women on patrol. First woman firefighter. Put a lot of women on boards and commissions. We put somebody in to develop the testing on rape kits. They ended up being used as protocols on rape kit testing; I think pretty much ended up being the protocols all over the state, because we were really the first place that really devoted energy to that. Did the first equal pay study that was ever done in the city of Houston to find pay disparities. A real challenging thing to do down there. That was interesting. Again I got to have the experience of having microphones in my mouth a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was mayor at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2019372100000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought so, especially since they had had so much cuts to their budget. But they did fill the gap, and I was at the mayor’s office for eighteen months, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You accomplished quite a bit during that time, hiring of women firefighters and police."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Police. Women on patrol. First woman firefighter. Put a lot of women on boards and commissions. We put somebody in to develop the testing on rape kits. They ended up being used as protocols on rape kit testing; I think pretty much ended up being the protocols all over the state, because we were really the first place that really devoted energy to that. Did the first equal pay study that was ever done in the city of Houston to find pay disparities. A real challenging thing to do down there. That was interesting. Again I got to have the experience of having microphones in my mouth a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was mayor at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hofheinz. Young Fred, not his father, Young [James] Fred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When I was reading the interview [from the public library] I didn’t realize he was mayor. I thought he was the county judge."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4465969000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Police. Women on patrol. First woman firefighter. Put a lot of women on boards and commissions. We put somebody in to develop the testing on rape kits. They ended up being used as protocols on rape kit testing; I think pretty much ended up being the protocols all over the state, because we were really the first place that really devoted energy to that. Did the first equal pay study that was ever done in the city of Houston to find pay disparities. A real challenging thing to do down there. That was interesting. Again I got to have the experience of having microphones in my mouth a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was mayor at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hofheinz. Young Fred, not his father, Young [James] Fred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When I was reading the interview [from the public library] I didn’t realize he was mayor. I thought he was the county judge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Young Fred. That’s what everybody called him, Young Fred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up leaving TRW though after a while to go work at Merrill Lynch."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7184410000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hofheinz. Young Fred, not his father, Young [James] Fred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When I was reading the interview [from the public library] I didn’t realize he was mayor. I thought he was the county judge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Young Fred. That’s what everybody called him, Young Fred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up leaving TRW though after a while to go work at Merrill Lynch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I worked at Merrill Lynch briefly. Then I worked at another division of TRW. That branch of the company developed software for big power systems. That was fairly interesting, but I really wanted to go to law school. I was paying my way through law school while I was working at TRW. The nice thing about working about computers is they don’t really care what you look like, and they don’t care what time of day it is that you’re working with them. I could go to law school and still do a lot. I was doing software testing mainly and making nice money while going to law school. Took a cut in pay when I became a lawyer. That was a great way to work through law school, have that kind of hour flexibility and a good paycheck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working in the space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.02049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Young Fred. That’s what everybody called him, Young Fred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up leaving TRW though after a while to go work at Merrill Lynch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I worked at Merrill Lynch briefly. Then I worked at another division of TRW. That branch of the company developed software for big power systems. That was fairly interesting, but I really wanted to go to law school. I was paying my way through law school while I was working at TRW. The nice thing about working about computers is they don’t really care what you look like, and they don’t care what time of day it is that you’re working with them. I could go to law school and still do a lot. I was doing software testing mainly and making nice money while going to law school. Took a cut in pay when I became a lawyer. That was a great way to work through law school, have that kind of hour flexibility and a good paycheck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working in the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never lost a customer. They all came home. Can’t get better than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your biggest challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I worked at Merrill Lynch briefly. Then I worked at another division of TRW. That branch of the company developed software for big power systems. That was fairly interesting, but I really wanted to go to law school. I was paying my way through law school while I was working at TRW. The nice thing about working about computers is they don’t really care what you look like, and they don’t care what time of day it is that you’re working with them. I could go to law school and still do a lot. I was doing software testing mainly and making nice money while going to law school. Took a cut in pay when I became a lawyer. That was a great way to work through law school, have that kind of hour flexibility and a good paycheck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment while working in the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never lost a customer. They all came home. Can’t get better than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting over the initial hump from being a computress to being a member of the technical staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kind of a big jump. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask Sandra if she has any questions.\n\nJust about ten minutes. One of the things you mentioned was that the press was so interested in you. Were there any women’s groups or women in the press or anybody that were commenting?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.729, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never lost a customer. They all came home. Can’t get better than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting over the initial hump from being a computress to being a member of the technical staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kind of a big jump. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask Sandra if she has any questions.\n\nJust about ten minutes. One of the things you mentioned was that the press was so interested in you. Were there any women’s groups or women in the press or anybody that were commenting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The press was dominated by men at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know if there were any women’s organizations, early ones, that may have been contacting you at that point."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting over the initial hump from being a computress to being a member of the technical staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kind of a big jump. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask Sandra if she has any questions.\n\nJust about ten minutes. One of the things you mentioned was that the press was so interested in you. Were there any women’s groups or women in the press or anybody that were commenting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The press was dominated by men at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know if there were any women’s organizations, early ones, that may have been contacting you at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In the press at the time, we were just beginning to have a few women become anchors. I’m trying to think. In Houston we didn’t have the first woman anchorperson till I think it would have been Jessica Savitch, and that probably would have been like ’71, ’72, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I remember that. You seemed to have a lot of confidence in your ability early on, which sometimes women at that time period—because I wasn’t really far behind you—sometimes you weren’t always encouraged to go into things like math or science or engineering. I was just wondering if you had any early mentors, like teachers in school early on, or parents, or at college to pursue that math degree."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:212", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The press was dominated by men at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know if there were any women’s organizations, early ones, that may have been contacting you at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In the press at the time, we were just beginning to have a few women become anchors. I’m trying to think. In Houston we didn’t have the first woman anchorperson till I think it would have been Jessica Savitch, and that probably would have been like ’71, ’72, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I remember that. You seemed to have a lot of confidence in your ability early on, which sometimes women at that time period—because I wasn’t really far behind you—sometimes you weren’t always encouraged to go into things like math or science or engineering. I was just wondering if you had any early mentors, like teachers in school early on, or parents, or at college to pursue that math degree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, really I think the only thing was I always tested really high on that. When we took aptitude tests I always scored really high on that. I guess I thought I was probably going to go into teaching, because that was the most acceptable thing that was out there for women to do. If you had a college degree you were expected to be a nurse, a teacher, or an executive secretary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to mention that because we’ve spoken to a lot of the early NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] computers, the women, and most of them that went into math, they either tested well and had somebody that pushed them that direction, but they also had that same feeling that they would be going into teaching. That’s what they thought, they would end up teaching. I thought it was interesting, just wondering if you had that same experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:214", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In the press at the time, we were just beginning to have a few women become anchors. I’m trying to think. In Houston we didn’t have the first woman anchorperson till I think it would have been Jessica Savitch, and that probably would have been like ’71, ’72, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I remember that. You seemed to have a lot of confidence in your ability early on, which sometimes women at that time period—because I wasn’t really far behind you—sometimes you weren’t always encouraged to go into things like math or science or engineering. I was just wondering if you had any early mentors, like teachers in school early on, or parents, or at college to pursue that math degree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, really I think the only thing was I always tested really high on that. When we took aptitude tests I always scored really high on that. I guess I thought I was probably going to go into teaching, because that was the most acceptable thing that was out there for women to do. If you had a college degree you were expected to be a nurse, a teacher, or an executive secretary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to mention that because we’ve spoken to a lot of the early NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] computers, the women, and most of them that went into math, they either tested well and had somebody that pushed them that direction, but they also had that same feeling that they would be going into teaching. That’s what they thought, they would end up teaching. I thought it was interesting, just wondering if you had that same experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In that sense I was encouraged to go into teaching. That was the only acceptable thing. “Oh yes, you can study math and be a teacher.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s just an interesting time. That’s mainly what I was going to ask, just about whether you had any encouragement at all, because like I said it was at a time when most people weren’t."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:216", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, really I think the only thing was I always tested really high on that. When we took aptitude tests I always scored really high on that. I guess I thought I was probably going to go into teaching, because that was the most acceptable thing that was out there for women to do. If you had a college degree you were expected to be a nurse, a teacher, or an executive secretary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to mention that because we’ve spoken to a lot of the early NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] computers, the women, and most of them that went into math, they either tested well and had somebody that pushed them that direction, but they also had that same feeling that they would be going into teaching. That’s what they thought, they would end up teaching. I thought it was interesting, just wondering if you had that same experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In that sense I was encouraged to go into teaching. That was the only acceptable thing. “Oh yes, you can study math and be a teacher.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s just an interesting time. That’s mainly what I was going to ask, just about whether you had any encouragement at all, because like I said it was at a time when most people weren’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had encouragement at TRW in the sense that I worked for more open-minded people than were generally present in the population. I was super lucky in that. The guy that was head of Houston operations, for example. Looking back on that especially at the time, that he would fight so hard is pretty remarkable.\\n\\n But his feeling I think to a certain extent was that he had gone out on a limb at that first six-month thing and said he was going to promote me. I think he was really irritated, that having promised something he wasn’t going to not deliver. That was pretty remarkable, I think, that they were that open-minded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up working in an org that included people like Bill Tindall. I’m trying to think some of the other guys that were there. Anybody else jump out at you that you worked with?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:218", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In that sense I was encouraged to go into teaching. That was the only acceptable thing. “Oh yes, you can study math and be a teacher.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s just an interesting time. That’s mainly what I was going to ask, just about whether you had any encouragement at all, because like I said it was at a time when most people weren’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had encouragement at TRW in the sense that I worked for more open-minded people than were generally present in the population. I was super lucky in that. The guy that was head of Houston operations, for example. Looking back on that especially at the time, that he would fight so hard is pretty remarkable.\\n\\n But his feeling I think to a certain extent was that he had gone out on a limb at that first six-month thing and said he was going to promote me. I think he was really irritated, that having promised something he wasn’t going to not deliver. That was pretty remarkable, I think, that they were that open-minded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up working in an org that included people like Bill Tindall. I’m trying to think some of the other guys that were there. Anybody else jump out at you that you worked with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people at MPAD were great. I can’t even remember all their names but they were great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any opportunity to work closely at all with Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:220", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had encouragement at TRW in the sense that I worked for more open-minded people than were generally present in the population. I was super lucky in that. The guy that was head of Houston operations, for example. Looking back on that especially at the time, that he would fight so hard is pretty remarkable.\\n\\n But his feeling I think to a certain extent was that he had gone out on a limb at that first six-month thing and said he was going to promote me. I think he was really irritated, that having promised something he wasn’t going to not deliver. That was pretty remarkable, I think, that they were that open-minded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You ended up working in an org that included people like Bill Tindall. I’m trying to think some of the other guys that were there. Anybody else jump out at you that you worked with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people at MPAD were great. I can’t even remember all their names but they were great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any opportunity to work closely at all with Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They were the flight controllers in there, but I was really dealing with the Retrofire officers. The MPAD people were the people that we worked with mainly, and I can’t think of the name of the guy that we dealt with over there, but he was very good. I was very lucky, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a great career, great start to it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:222", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people at MPAD were great. I can’t even remember all their names but they were great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any opportunity to work closely at all with Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz or Glynn [S.] Lunney?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They were the flight controllers in there, but I was really dealing with the Retrofire officers. The MPAD people were the people that we worked with mainly, and I can’t think of the name of the guy that we dealt with over there, but he was very good. I was very lucky, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a great career, great start to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Luck all the way. I had an employment opportunity, come down here to talk to somebody, never heard of the company, hadn’t really thought of the space program. My main talent is that given a good situation I will exploit it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a great talent."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00430:224", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They were the flight controllers in there, but I was really dealing with the Retrofire officers. The MPAD people were the people that we worked with mainly, and I can’t think of the name of the guy that we dealt with over there, but he was very good. I was very lucky, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a great career, great start to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Luck all the way. I had an employment opportunity, come down here to talk to somebody, never heard of the company, hadn’t really thought of the space program. My main talent is that given a good situation I will exploit it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a great talent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s my big talent. I do recognize opportunities when I see them. I was lucky. I had the opportunity to exploit some stuff that other people don’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much for coming down today. We really appreciate it. We enjoyed it."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 53.25547141046417, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I spent four years in Ann Arbor, and then in 1985 the curator left. He was kind of the Deputy Director as well. And so I moved to Grand Rapids and based out of Grand Rapids because in Ann Arbor we were pretty well integrated into the university, and we still had some integration issues over in Grand Rapids. And I think everybody felt in the end that it was probably better if I was in Grand Rapids. About a year after I was in Grand Rapids the process of selecting the next Archivist of the United States started bubbling and I was approached by some Reagan people. Actually it was Charles Palm, who was the Associate Director of the Hoover Institution. Charles and I had been friends for a number of years. We kind of came up through the Archives together and then he left the training program and went to the Hoover Institution as the archivist. But he was very close with a lot of the Reagan California group, Shultz, Secretary of State Shultz, Ed Meese—what I call the California group. And they were the ones most concerned about who was going to be that first Archivist named, mainly because of the library, you know. They didn’t want any problems going through Congress with the Presidential Library. I’m giving you a lot inside stuff here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh that’s what we want."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was interesting because earlier, I think it was late ’86, early ’87, Ed Meese visited the campus, spoke at the University of Michigan, met with President Ford and me, and—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Just for clarification, you were then meeting with Ford and Reagan?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 56.95052378940463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was interesting because earlier, I think it was late ’86, early ’87, Ed Meese visited the campus, spoke at the University of Michigan, met with President Ford and me, and—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Just for clarification, you were then meeting with Ford and Reagan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ford and Meese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ford and Ed Meese."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 61.05613754378292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was interesting because earlier, I think it was late ’86, early ’87, Ed Meese visited the campus, spoke at the University of Michigan, met with President Ford and me, and—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Just for clarification, you were then meeting with Ford and Reagan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ford and Meese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ford and Ed Meese."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was the Attorney General at the time. And he was kind of taking the point on a lot of the Presidential Libraries, I mean he is also a great friend of the Archives. Bob Warner and he had also had a good relationship. And you know, and in all fairness, I would say Bob was kind of a mentor to me. I had of course, during that time, turned him down for a couple of positions in the Archives, including the after the death of an archivist [laughter] at one point. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] When was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 66.72904171531435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ford and Meese."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ford and Ed Meese."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was the Attorney General at the time. And he was kind of taking the point on a lot of the Presidential Libraries, I mean he is also a great friend of the Archives. Bob Warner and he had also had a good relationship. And you know, and in all fairness, I would say Bob was kind of a mentor to me. I had of course, during that time, turned him down for a couple of positions in the Archives, including the after the death of an archivist [laughter] at one point. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] When was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "’85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so we haven’t gotten there yet really."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 58.39817362492661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was really the leadership of Bob Warner. Bob really was the driving force in independence. The independence issue was all over Watergate. And GSA’s handling the tapes. There was a large cry from the historical agencies and organizations for independence. Bob built on that, and developed a lot of congressional inroads there, and GSA was kind of their own worst enemy on a lot of these issues. It’s interesting to note that the National Archives is the only independent agency created by the Reagan administration. I was of course out in Grand Rapids so I wasn’t intimately involved, although Bob kept me well informed on what was going on. And part of the agreement he came up with and the deal he made was that he would step down as Archivist once independence was achieved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How exactly did that deal work? Was that his official deal or—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] He cut that deal, yeah. And part of it being, you know, Bob is perceived by a lot that current Reagan administration as being more of a Democrat than a Republican, although it really didn’t come into play all that much. I think Bob really wanted to step down too. He kind of took this on as a challenge. And he wanted to go back the University of Michigan. That was his love. And so that was playing into it. Independence was 1985, and then when he stepped down, Frank Burke became Acting Archivist. Frank’s still living isn’t he?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\n\nSo you were almost in DC at this point. How did you come to DC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s in 1986, the movement began in earnest for the appointment of a new Archivist, the first Presidentially-appointed archivist. Now the legislation was very tricky and cumbersome at the time, because the Senate really wanted a term, and most of the organizations wanted a term. The House wouldn’t accept a term. And so it was supposed to be more like a judgeship, more like the FBI Director, you know, that it would be a 10 year term or something that—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Can you speak to the conversation about whether it should be a term, like why did the House have that opinion?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 43.30403052379154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Philip Morris the cigarette company, but it wasn’t the cigarette company. It was Kraft Foods. But everybody focused of the cigarettes. And I was really ahead of my time, and believed strongly in public-private partnerships, that in order to accomplish anything we couldn’t rely on appropriations alone, that we needed to build some partnerships. Well they approached me on this idea and they wanted to take a copy of the Bill of Rights out to the American people and make it available to every classroom. And we reached millions of children with it. We reached millions of schools. And there was this whole public exhibit that traveled around the country. And hundreds of thousands of people visited during the Bill of Rights centennial. And we took $500,000.00 in order to do it, and they paid for all of it. Now we ended up not using any of our copies of the Bill of Rights. We used the Virginia copy, because they supported this. So the Virginia State allowed their copy to be used, but we authorized the program going into schools. I think it was a great program. I’m still proud of it, even though I got criticized strongly in Congress—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] And what was Congress’ opposition to the traveling Bill of Rights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That I took money from Philip Morris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did this play into your decision to want to have a Foundation for the National Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your role in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.369472024158092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very low key, in my office with about six people there. And we didn’t even take a photograph. Did we?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We finally found a couple in—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Oh did you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—in your papers at the Bush Library."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We found some, yeah. We found a couple."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.52163558239788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Oh did you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—in your papers at the Bush Library."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We found some, yeah. We found a couple."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well thank goodness. I remember that I kept, I’m going to have to write them because I don’t have them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what extent—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.024039535997645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We found some, yeah. We found a couple."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well thank goodness. I remember that I kept, I’m going to have to write them because I don’t have them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what extent—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I kept them in my papers—I’ll be darned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what did you receive criticism after you signed?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 38.91559948444183, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well thank goodness. I remember that I kept, I’m going to have to write them because I don’t have them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what extent—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I kept them in my papers—I’ll be darned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what did you receive criticism after you signed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not much, I had a lot of people come out and say that’s the right thing, Constitution scholars, that’s the right thing to do. And it kind of died then. And in Congress they said it is part of the Constitution now. And so it became a non-issue. Tom Foley kind of backed off completely. Senator Byrd probably always held it against me. But he was already senile. I don’t know if I should have said that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just sort of a side question, what was Senator Byrd like? Dealing with him? Obviously a controversial figure for a very long time."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 41.017332760490916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I kept them in my papers—I’ll be darned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what did you receive criticism after you signed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not much, I had a lot of people come out and say that’s the right thing, Constitution scholars, that’s the right thing to do. And it kind of died then. And in Congress they said it is part of the Constitution now. And so it became a non-issue. Tom Foley kind of backed off completely. Senator Byrd probably always held it against me. But he was already senile. I don’t know if I should have said that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just sort of a side question, what was Senator Byrd like? Dealing with him? Obviously a controversial figure for a very long time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well he was pontificating, arrogant, self-anointed scholar of the Constitution. But a powerful force to be reckoned with in the Senate because he’d been there for so long. And, you could, probably better to ask the FBI, or CIA, or somebody like that who has satellite agencies in West Virginia that question. I didn’t have that many problems with him other than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just curious. Thank you. But—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 43.352591956101016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not much, I had a lot of people come out and say that’s the right thing, Constitution scholars, that’s the right thing to do. And it kind of died then. And in Congress they said it is part of the Constitution now. And so it became a non-issue. Tom Foley kind of backed off completely. Senator Byrd probably always held it against me. But he was already senile. I don’t know if I should have said that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just sort of a side question, what was Senator Byrd like? Dealing with him? Obviously a controversial figure for a very long time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well he was pontificating, arrogant, self-anointed scholar of the Constitution. But a powerful force to be reckoned with in the Senate because he’d been there for so long. And, you could, probably better to ask the FBI, or CIA, or somebody like that who has satellite agencies in West Virginia that question. I didn’t have that many problems with him other than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just curious. Thank you. But—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I had far, a far more controversial person in my mind was Senator Ted Stevens. That’s why we have the Alaska Record Center. And that was, you know, we weren’t particularly in favor of that. But that was pretty much imposed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s closed now."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 48.16954661789001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well he was pontificating, arrogant, self-anointed scholar of the Constitution. But a powerful force to be reckoned with in the Senate because he’d been there for so long. And, you could, probably better to ask the FBI, or CIA, or somebody like that who has satellite agencies in West Virginia that question. I didn’t have that many problems with him other than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just curious. Thank you. But—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I had far, a far more controversial person in my mind was Senator Ted Stevens. That’s why we have the Alaska Record Center. And that was, you know, we weren’t particularly in favor of that. But that was pretty much imposed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s closed now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is it closed now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It got closed this last year."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 51.29949624210001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] I had far, a far more controversial person in my mind was Senator Ted Stevens. That’s why we have the Alaska Record Center. And that was, you know, we weren’t particularly in favor of that. But that was pretty much imposed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s closed now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is it closed now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It got closed this last year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and I figured, I could understand the rationale, but because people traveling would have to go to Seattle to do anything. But it was tough to manage, and it was tough to open up. And we had to scrape some budget money out to do it, and it was pretty small, even in its prime. We opened another one in Western New York. Again, a congressional mandate, and another proud thing, one of the proudest things I think I can say of my administration was I had no schedule C’s. There were no political appointees in the National Archives, except me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to the—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 56.99944026900001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is it closed now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It got closed this last year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and I figured, I could understand the rationale, but because people traveling would have to go to Seattle to do anything. But it was tough to manage, and it was tough to open up. And we had to scrape some budget money out to do it, and it was pretty small, even in its prime. We opened another one in Western New York. Again, a congressional mandate, and another proud thing, one of the proudest things I think I can say of my administration was I had no schedule C’s. There were no political appointees in the National Archives, except me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] That didn’t last. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to the amendment for a second, did you consult with the President of the United States at all? Was there any—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00014:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it’s a heck of a burden to carry and the number of records, pages of records has probably quadrupled since I left office. So it’s a horrendous task and I wouldn’t criticize, or I wouldn’t second guess any of my successors because they have to deal with a whole set of problems I never dealt with. But I’m very proud of my association with the National Archives. I spent 20 years with the National Archives, and it was very fortunate that even kind of forced out, I can retire [laughter] glad 20 years early. And I was a Presidential appointee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Thank you so much for your time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re welcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And anything else you want to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not right now, we’ll probably talk more over lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\n\nSounds great."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00683:68", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.136811, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They make jokes about rocket science for a reason."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s pretty interesting, thanks for sharing that. When they were talking about their launch sites, did you travel to Australia? Were you traveling with them to check out things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never got to Australia. That was something I really was looking forward to doing. They invited me a couple times, but they weren’t to a point where we really felt that it was clear that yes they’re going to go do this and NASA needs to go over sees to see what was happening. Had they gotten to a point where they had put the financing together, I would have gotten to Australia. I envision we would have helped talk with them about how they were laying out their infrastructure there. On a consultant basis really, because it would have been their infrastructure and their stuff, but we would have certainly given them our opinions as to what we think works and what doesn’t work. I looked forward to doing that but I never got the opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that they were down in Michoud. Were you down there as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to Michoud several times, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier you mentioned they would ask you sometimes for guidance, and you had to decide at what point you pull back. Did they offer you some input on how better to manage what you were doing, in the sense of “it would be helpful if you could do such and such” to move them closer?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00683:78", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s a really big, challenging piece as to how to sort that all out. It’s been exciting and been very interesting at various times. But it’s a big political issue, and it’s every kind of politics you can come up with: state, federal, local, NASA internal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s about all I had.\n\nBefore we come back and talk to you more about your experience as a project executive with Orbital, do you have any final thoughts you’d like to mention for today’s session?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to the challenges realm, being involved with RpK, trying to figure out the financial piece and putting that together was certainly the challenge that ultimately tripped them up. From the personal side, it was very interesting watching that. I feel like I came away from that with some experience base that was unique within the Agency. I don’t know of anybody else that’s been involved or seen somebody try to pull together $500 million independently financed on Wall Street. I ended up doing only one trip to Madison Avenue, but that’s not something NASA is ever going to probably get involved with again, where people are going to have an opportunity to go with a NASA badge and have meetings on Madison Avenue with an investment bank. That was an interesting process. I’m glad I took my attorney with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your personal attorney or a NASA attorney?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a NASA attorney. That was a very interesting challenge to keep us on the straight and narrow. We took our attorney with us because we were very concerned with where we were going and the type of business aspects that we were getting involved with. Our involvement was really as a consultant, but I think the investment community wanted NASA to say, “We endorse this, and we plan to buy this.” We couldn’t. All we could say was, “We think this is good. We’ve put money into it, let’s see if we can demonstrate this.” We needed our attorney to keep making sure that we didn’t say, “NASA commits to buying the next round.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that attorney Amy [V.] Xenofos, or did you have someone else with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.668229452532021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I always loved math, and I had a really outstanding teacher in high school that made me even more interested. My father also was interested in math. My mother was an English teacher and both of my sisters were English teachers, but my father, who didn't go to college, was always pushing me a little bit toward math and he had more interest in that, and I did, too, than in English. I liked English grammar, but I didn't care for the literature part that went along with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a good combination, because grammar is so structured and math is so structured. Did that help you as you went through, trying to explain your data to people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I imagine that it did. I can't really think of a way it did, but I should think that a structured-type thing would help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During those years at Langley, and I know you've mentioned that it was such a long time ago, but that was quite a bustling place back in those first years, and you might have been able to make a career there, but you met your husband. You didn't go into details of how you two met. Would you like to share with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was right after the war years and we met at the USO [United Service Organizations] at Fort Monroe [Army Base]. That's right outside of Langley.\n\nAt the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association].\n\nThe YMCA. Okay, yes, that's what it was. I had gone there with some of my girlfriends to a dance and some of the military people were there and I met him there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this, of course, was a still young age, wasn't it, because you hadn't been out of college very long."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.742477169480024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I imagine that it did. I can't really think of a way it did, but I should think that a structured-type thing would help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During those years at Langley, and I know you've mentioned that it was such a long time ago, but that was quite a bustling place back in those first years, and you might have been able to make a career there, but you met your husband. You didn't go into details of how you two met. Would you like to share with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was right after the war years and we met at the USO [United Service Organizations] at Fort Monroe [Army Base]. That's right outside of Langley.\n\nAt the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association].\n\nThe YMCA. Okay, yes, that's what it was. I had gone there with some of my girlfriends to a dance and some of the military people were there and I met him there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this, of course, was a still young age, wasn't it, because you hadn't been out of college very long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was just out of college, twenty-two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's still young. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.921093510946534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was right after the war years and we met at the USO [United Service Organizations] at Fort Monroe [Army Base]. That's right outside of Langley.\n\nAt the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association].\n\nThe YMCA. Okay, yes, that's what it was. I had gone there with some of my girlfriends to a dance and some of the military people were there and I met him there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this, of course, was a still young age, wasn't it, because you hadn't been out of college very long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was just out of college, twenty-two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's still young. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seems like it now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then to pack up and leave that area and to come so far away, did you see it as a sense of adventure?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.798450836398644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wish I could, but actually, the job that I had was pretty much a desk job. It was a lot of data and I worked with some interesting engineers on it, but now, looking back, seems like I did the same thing on all of them. We had engineers who actually analyzed the data and wrote reports and we helped them, and I've edited some reports that were written.\\n\\n But I really enjoyed the work. It was fun and everybody worked together well. I don't remember being frustrated or disappointed in any way. A lot of people don't like this part of California because it is hot, but I basically have been happy everywhere I've lived. I just adjust to whatever is there, so I don't remember ever being really upset or disappointed with the conditions. It was just interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a project that you found that challenged you more, even in your Air Force days when you were moved over in the supervisory area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, the project that I felt the closest to was the AFTI F-16, the GD part of it. I really enjoyed that and had a lot of responsibility of my own, and I enjoyed that more than just data-handling.\n\nCan I mention something?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just want to say one thing she hasn't mentioned, was she also, while she was on the AFTI program, got pretty heavily involved in SR-71 work, too. I think she forgot to write that down.\n\nI [worked on SR-71 while employed with the Air Force, not General Dynamics]. That was the AFTI program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to talk to us about this while we're on that subject?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.44272315155405, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, the project that I felt the closest to was the AFTI F-16, the GD part of it. I really enjoyed that and had a lot of responsibility of my own, and I enjoyed that more than just data-handling.\n\nCan I mention something?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just want to say one thing she hasn't mentioned, was she also, while she was on the AFTI program, got pretty heavily involved in SR-71 work, too. I think she forgot to write that down.\n\nI [worked on SR-71 while employed with the Air Force, not General Dynamics]. That was the AFTI program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to talk to us about this while we're on that subject?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't, really. I would like to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one of my questions I was going to ask, is that I have to think that some of the projects you worked on are classified, and are they still?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:40", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.936359057282278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just want to say one thing she hasn't mentioned, was she also, while she was on the AFTI program, got pretty heavily involved in SR-71 work, too. I think she forgot to write that down.\n\nI [worked on SR-71 while employed with the Air Force, not General Dynamics]. That was the AFTI program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to talk to us about this while we're on that subject?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't, really. I would like to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one of my questions I was going to ask, is that I have to think that some of the projects you worked on are classified, and are they still?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, probably not. I remember more the people that I worked with, you know, than I do in details. That's why I told my husband when you sent some of the information and some of these people had talked about big responsibilities they've had and what they've done and I said, \"I'm not going to be able to tell that kind of thing.\" I didn't have that kind of—you know, I didn't go to the Moon and that, but I worked closely with Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford and he went.\\n\\n One of the biggest thrills in my dad's life, I think, Tom was the director at the Air Force here for a while after his trip to the Moon and all that. I called him when my dad came out to visit and I asked him if I could bring my dad up to headquarters and meet him. He said, \"Sure,\" so we went up there and my dad was just absolutely thrilled to shake the hand of somebody that had done that kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he's still so involved in the NASA arena as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 14.373732285869197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't, really. I would like to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one of my questions I was going to ask, is that I have to think that some of the projects you worked on are classified, and are they still?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, probably not. I remember more the people that I worked with, you know, than I do in details. That's why I told my husband when you sent some of the information and some of these people had talked about big responsibilities they've had and what they've done and I said, \"I'm not going to be able to tell that kind of thing.\" I didn't have that kind of—you know, I didn't go to the Moon and that, but I worked closely with Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford and he went.\\n\\n One of the biggest thrills in my dad's life, I think, Tom was the director at the Air Force here for a while after his trip to the Moon and all that. I called him when my dad came out to visit and I asked him if I could bring my dad up to headquarters and meet him. He said, \"Sure,\" so we went up there and my dad was just absolutely thrilled to shake the hand of somebody that had done that kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he's still so involved in the NASA arena as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was just a lieutenant when I first knew him at the Air Force, you know, worked on the SR-71. He worked on that—worked with him on that. It's like a history of things we've seen around here to go to the Air Force Museum and take a look at all the airplanes that we've been associated with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's such an impact that you've made on so many of those planes, and like you mentioned, too, about the people that you worked with. When you were talking about having your children, and you continued to work, was there a childcare facility, or how did you arrange for that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 9.73447514178608, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely, in those early years we did, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some people may not have enjoyed that, because like you never escape from that whole work environment, but was it more than just that, where you had a chance to get to know these people as, like I said, family members?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, pretty much. In fact, we not only worked in the same place, but of course, we lived in the same place. At first we lived in Mojave and those housing places, and then when we did actually build a house, all the neighbors around were [NACA] people, too, so all their children were our children's friends, so it was like a family. I think in more recent years it's not, but back in those days it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the pieces of research that we read was that, of course, many single men and many single women, or not many, but some single women were out there, and because of the times and the social climate, they really didn't want to go places without chaperones. Did you and your husband, as a married couple, ever work in that job status, where you all would go with the single people to kind of be the chaperone on a social level?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I never recognized that. [Laughter] Seems to me like the men and women went everywhere together. I never knew any women that were worried about going anywhere, that I can remember. But they were there, you know, at the parties and things, and women would come and the men would come. But there probably were some, maybe, they worried about that, but I never heard about it if they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned, as you were going through some of the places that you'd gone, that some people even admitted to going out to Pancho Barnes'. Was that something you'd like to admit as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.132417285251412, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, all right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really, when I was working at [NACA], I was working in a group, and the leader of that group actually passed out the work to people, and it was fairly routine work. I know that the data was important to someone in describing what the aircraft was doing and what they could go on and try to do next, but I can't honestly myself relate what I did to a particular project. In fact, no matter what airplane it was, we just about did the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know what data you were working on for what project at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably I did, yes.\n\nI'm sure you did, but you just don't remember it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were many projects going on at one time that you were involved in, or were you maybe assigned to a team that was working on one plane and another team was working on another plane?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:90", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.5753323528825955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really, when I was working at [NACA], I was working in a group, and the leader of that group actually passed out the work to people, and it was fairly routine work. I know that the data was important to someone in describing what the aircraft was doing and what they could go on and try to do next, but I can't honestly myself relate what I did to a particular project. In fact, no matter what airplane it was, we just about did the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know what data you were working on for what project at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably I did, yes.\n\nI'm sure you did, but you just don't remember it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were many projects going on at one time that you were involved in, or were you maybe assigned to a team that was working on one plane and another team was working on another plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'll tell you, I think that I was pretty well spread around among whatever was going on then.\n\nIt was basically a pool of people under Roxanah Yancey, and she would distribute work as needed to be done by different people, and then it would be double-checked, and then she double-checked.\n\nAnd then they'd give it back to her and she was the one who talked to the—\n\nShe was a very thorough person.\n\nShe was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She sounded like she must have been a strong personality in being one of the first women here and helping to set that up. Did you work for her for many years?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.797462658851302, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably I did, yes.\n\nI'm sure you did, but you just don't remember it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There were many projects going on at one time that you were involved in, or were you maybe assigned to a team that was working on one plane and another team was working on another plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'll tell you, I think that I was pretty well spread around among whatever was going on then.\n\nIt was basically a pool of people under Roxanah Yancey, and she would distribute work as needed to be done by different people, and then it would be double-checked, and then she double-checked.\n\nAnd then they'd give it back to her and she was the one who talked to the—\n\nShe was a very thorough person.\n\nShe was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She sounded like she must have been a strong personality in being one of the first women here and helping to set that up. Did you work for her for many years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. How long after we came to Edwards before I—four years, three years, maybe?\n\nWell, we came out in '48, and then you left—\n\nEarly '53. About four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things in the book they talk about—I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it right—oscillograph film, is that one of the things you did was read the film?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.89517119126877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to laundromats. We didn't have a washer and dryer or anything like that, so anything like that we had to go to the laundromat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everything was in town then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the little town of Mojave. There wasn't much in town, the little town Mojave, and there's still not now. But it's just a small place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of that, I was wondering about the dress code at that time. Were the women required to wear dresses and hose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't believe that women were required to in any way by [NACA], but at that stage of our lives, women just did. Women didn't wear pants, you know. I think the first time I wore pants to work was after I was working for the Air Force, and they had a picnic or something at lunch, and I took a pair of pants to put on at work and went to the picnic and I came back and put a skirt back on.\n\nSomething I do remember is that it used to be that all men had to wear suits to work, and if you can visualize the type of temperature, swamp coolers, and men sitting around in suits, jacket, ties, and choking and dying on the spot, they came out and said, \"From now on, there will be no more coats and ties. Shirts only, and pants.\"\n\nAt work today, people can wear shorts, but we didn't do that then. But of course, you see that same thing in church today. We used to wear a dress all the time, and people just aren't doing it. In fact, my sister is married to a minister and he retired here about two years ago. My sister Betty told me that she got rid of every dress that she had. She said she told Lyman she was never wearing a dress. She got rid of them altogether and all she has are pants now. But that's just a change in how we did. But, no, we did not wear pants to work in those days. Nobody told us we couldn't, it's just that we didn't wear them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't socially acceptable."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.6613013236319665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the little town of Mojave. There wasn't much in town, the little town Mojave, and there's still not now. But it's just a small place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of that, I was wondering about the dress code at that time. Were the women required to wear dresses and hose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't believe that women were required to in any way by [NACA], but at that stage of our lives, women just did. Women didn't wear pants, you know. I think the first time I wore pants to work was after I was working for the Air Force, and they had a picnic or something at lunch, and I took a pair of pants to put on at work and went to the picnic and I came back and put a skirt back on.\n\nSomething I do remember is that it used to be that all men had to wear suits to work, and if you can visualize the type of temperature, swamp coolers, and men sitting around in suits, jacket, ties, and choking and dying on the spot, they came out and said, \"From now on, there will be no more coats and ties. Shirts only, and pants.\"\n\nAt work today, people can wear shorts, but we didn't do that then. But of course, you see that same thing in church today. We used to wear a dress all the time, and people just aren't doing it. In fact, my sister is married to a minister and he retired here about two years ago. My sister Betty told me that she got rid of every dress that she had. She said she told Lyman she was never wearing a dress. She got rid of them altogether and all she has are pants now. But that's just a change in how we did. But, no, we did not wear pants to work in those days. Nobody told us we couldn't, it's just that we didn't wear them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't socially acceptable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't the thing to do, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Also in the book we've heard them refer to the \"mole hole,\" where the computers were. Was that during your time or was that after? That may have been after you left."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.458396695841934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't the thing to do, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Also in the book we've heard them refer to the \"mole hole,\" where the computers were. Was that during your time or was that after? That may have been after you left."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Must have been. I never heard that expression, and we didn't have any computers. You mean people computers?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People computers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never heard it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That may have been after you left."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.509329662046593, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Must have been. I never heard that expression, and we didn't have any computers. You mean people computers?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People computers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never heard it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That may have been after you left."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It might have been. That's interesting. I think it would have been before. I never heard the expression and I don't know how it could have come about with regard to where we—you know, we had an office that was on the ground floor, and didn't have windows and that, but I don't know what that came from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it was a reference when the assignments tended to shift where the computers were not working so closely with the engineers on a day-to-day basis, that they had put a lot of the computers into another room, and they were basically separated.\n\nIt refers to in the early fifties some time, so I didn't know if you were involved in it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.565921846718435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never heard it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That may have been after you left."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It might have been. That's interesting. I think it would have been before. I never heard the expression and I don't know how it could have come about with regard to where we—you know, we had an office that was on the ground floor, and didn't have windows and that, but I don't know what that came from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it was a reference when the assignments tended to shift where the computers were not working so closely with the engineers on a day-to-day basis, that they had put a lot of the computers into another room, and they were basically separated.\n\nIt refers to in the early fifties some time, so I didn't know if you were involved in it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wouldn't have been. Maybe. I didn't go to the Air Force till '53. But that was the case, that when I got there, we didn't work very closely with the engineers. Occasionally, one of them would come in and work with us individually, but mostly Roxanah Yancey was the one that had any interface with anybody. We worked through her and she'd talk to them. Somebody could have referred to it like that. I hadn't thought about that, but that is the way it was. That's for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've talked about it being warm or hot during the day. Was it cool when you were working there in the evenings or early in the mornings when you would get there, were the temperatures such that—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I don't think it's perfect yet, but yes, I did see that things were changing for women. It is better but it still—not too long ago, Johnny was retired and I was still working. He went to the bank most of the time because I was at work, but one day I needed to go and get a check cashed for something or other and I went into the bank. The person I talked to at the bank was a woman—this made it worse even, you know. I wrote my check and I went up to cash it and this woman looked at me and she said, \"Are you able to write checks from your husband's account?\"\\n\\n I said, \"My husband's account? It's our combined account. Of course I'm able to write a check on this account.\" And she actually went and checked on that before she gave me my money. I told him later, if it had been a man, I would have thought little of it, but a woman. And this must have been in the 1990s. I tell you, I just can't understand how some people—my name was right on the account, but \"on your husband's account.\"\n\nI told you I went over and told her to do that.\n\nYes, he told me that.\n\nJust to make sure she doesn't give her too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got to keep some humor in it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something to talk about. Well, we have certainly enjoyed learning about the aspects of your life that certainly have shaped it, and shaped so many lives as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you for letting me participate in your program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've enjoyed it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:222", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something to talk about. Well, we have certainly enjoyed learning about the aspects of your life that certainly have shaped it, and shaped so many lives as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you for letting me participate in your program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've enjoyed it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's certainly interesting. We think it's so funny because so many people have gone now that are not available to talk to about different things, and we feel real fortunate at our ages that we feel as healthy as we are, you know what I mean? We've slowed down a little bit, but pretty much do as we always have done. When we get ready to go somewhere, we do it and just enjoy it as much as we ever did.\n\nWe're both seventy-six now. We used to think that people [our age] were old, and we don't feel old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you for taking time out of that busy life to make time for us this morning."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01006:224", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you for letting me participate in your program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've enjoyed it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's certainly interesting. We think it's so funny because so many people have gone now that are not available to talk to about different things, and we feel real fortunate at our ages that we feel as healthy as we are, you know what I mean? We've slowed down a little bit, but pretty much do as we always have done. When we get ready to go somewhere, we do it and just enjoy it as much as we ever did.\n\nWe're both seventy-six now. We used to think that people [our age] were old, and we don't feel old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you for taking time out of that busy life to make time for us this morning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you and we look forward to sending you the materials for you to review and enjoy it for yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.12547425983878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Read about it, heard about it, read the newspaper, heard people talking about it. I was going to school at Duke in Durham, North Carolina, and my last year of school I did do some voter registration work in the black community. But my parents lived in Sweden and I had my godparents lived in Alexandria, Virginia, and my other family was sort of spread all around. So I just sort of came into this on my own. And as an aside, after I joined the Peace Corps, I heard it described that I was a communist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who described you as a communist?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A cousin of my father. They were very conservative, strong military officers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your family feel about it? How did your father?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know that my parents felt anything about it. They didn't say yes or no, or it just sort of evolved as I was sort of planning on what to do after I graduated. And I think they understood my motivation as I understood it. And I don't think they viewed it as insurrectionist or whatnot, but I think they, I think they viewed it. My father had been the air attaché in Sweden for three years, and I think they viewed it as sort of a baby diplomatic effort. I think both while I was in Costa Rica and then even before I was going, I thought in the sense of being a goodwill ambassador, not to promote America, but certainly to bring what we could from America that might be helpful or interesting to people in other countries and learn from them about their lives and cultures. And in a way it would be do no harm, but hopefully do good.\n\nAnd I realized we didn't have money as AID did to create infrastructure and we weren't diplomats. I turned in my family diplomatic passport and got my regular green U.S. passport. But we were, I think, expected, I don't know if there were any official rules, but we were expected not to actively promote and be in the forefront of political organizing lobbying. Our job was to encourage and create bridges and information."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have this sense of Peace Corps before you went in or is this what developed during training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 39.661079333134296, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know that my parents felt anything about it. They didn't say yes or no, or it just sort of evolved as I was sort of planning on what to do after I graduated. And I think they understood my motivation as I understood it. And I don't think they viewed it as insurrectionist or whatnot, but I think they, I think they viewed it. My father had been the air attaché in Sweden for three years, and I think they viewed it as sort of a baby diplomatic effort. I think both while I was in Costa Rica and then even before I was going, I thought in the sense of being a goodwill ambassador, not to promote America, but certainly to bring what we could from America that might be helpful or interesting to people in other countries and learn from them about their lives and cultures. And in a way it would be do no harm, but hopefully do good.\n\nAnd I realized we didn't have money as AID did to create infrastructure and we weren't diplomats. I turned in my family diplomatic passport and got my regular green U.S. passport. But we were, I think, expected, I don't know if there were any official rules, but we were expected not to actively promote and be in the forefront of political organizing lobbying. Our job was to encourage and create bridges and information."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have this sense of Peace Corps before you went in or is this what developed during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think my idea before I went was, if I had imagined what my work would be or where it would be, would probably not have been in a totally extremely remote rural area as I found myself. Because that really didn't fit in with the concept of what our group turned out to be in this community development, working in what they call teams where we had one person in our culture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, you're getting ahead of me just a little bit. Talk a little bit about training, what the training was like, what the selection process was like, and how you envisioned after your training what you would be doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the training, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you train?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 32.810173471412384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say somewhere between six and eight, and we sat around in a circle in these little sort of chickee huts. Only they weren't chickee huts with palm thatch like we have in Florida where I live, but they were miniature versions of our little bags."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did the group last? How long were the sessions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I assume we got there at 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning and we'd go till noon or 11:30 or something. That would be the morning. And then maybe the afternoon was the Spanish class after lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would these groups be every day during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole time of training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.12241496823599, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I assume we got there at 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning and we'd go till noon or 11:30 or something. That would be the morning. And then maybe the afternoon was the Spanish class after lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would these groups be every day during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole time of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole time, except when we had two in particular, extraordinary experiences. I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, but two times we were asked during training to go away from the camp on our own to find a place to stay. The first time it was for a weekend, and the second time was for a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this would be in the community?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 36.80268329803998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole time of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole time, except when we had two in particular, extraordinary experiences. I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, but two times we were asked during training to go away from the camp on our own to find a place to stay. The first time it was for a weekend, and the second time was for a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this would be in the community?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All over the island, the whole island of Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your transportation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.94228133361429, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Deselection or selection? Well, selection, as I understand it was, you could be asked to join the Peace Corps as a volunteer and you would go to your training. And during the training, somebody would determine whether or not you fit in with either the work they thought you would be doing or they intended you to do, both in terms of your language skills and in terms of the particular quote unquote mission of the work. And I think those decisions turned on the evaluation as I think I glean, certainly at the end of the training. The Spanish teachers were not just teaching Spanish, they were also submitting some sort of review or evaluation of some kind. The D group business, as I recall it, we might be the volunteers or the prospective volunteers. I guess you would say the trainees would be sitting around a little group and discussing, and I got to get back to that in a minute what we discussed or why, but I don't remember that there was a staff member who sat there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think staff members, when I say staff and I'll come back to that in a minute, came by or sometimes participated or gave us topics or gave us scenarios. But I don't think at all times there was a staff person there, and I don't remember Mr. Tucker coming in sitting down with our group. He may have come by or something, but not really participating as I recall it. But what he was sort of this. I thought he was an albino, quite frankly, because of his coloring. But this very strange looking person with a very reserved manner with a clipboard. And every time he wrote something down, it was not good. So you didn't want him to write down anything about anybody or about you or about what you really thought about anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when he was around, you were very."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very circumspect, very circumspect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you would, this would not be, you would not say how you felt about this particular experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.824757037349208, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think staff members, when I say staff and I'll come back to that in a minute, came by or sometimes participated or gave us topics or gave us scenarios. But I don't think at all times there was a staff person there, and I don't remember Mr. Tucker coming in sitting down with our group. He may have come by or something, but not really participating as I recall it. But what he was sort of this. I thought he was an albino, quite frankly, because of his coloring. But this very strange looking person with a very reserved manner with a clipboard. And every time he wrote something down, it was not good. So you didn't want him to write down anything about anybody or about you or about what you really thought about anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when he was around, you were very."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very circumspect, very circumspect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you would, this would not be, you would not say how you felt about this particular experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the same time, I don't think he was the person who organized the training as training, the bigger picture of the training, the elements of the training. So he had his segment of it, which he used to great harm. And then there was the purpose of going in the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say great harm, would you expand a little bit on why you think it was such great? Now there were men in the group that if they were selected out, they would automatically become eligible for the draft."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.0275078192769, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very circumspect, very circumspect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you would, this would not be, you would not say how you felt about this particular experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the same time, I don't think he was the person who organized the training as training, the bigger picture of the training, the elements of the training. So he had his segment of it, which he used to great harm. And then there was the purpose of going in the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say great harm, would you expand a little bit on why you think it was such great? Now there were men in the group that if they were selected out, they would automatically become eligible for the draft."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some came in with high numbers and low numbers as I mentioned. Some of their draft boards said would recognize Peace Corps service as service. Some said their draft boards would not, so it was just a matter of when their numbers came up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that some had draft deferments and some did not."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.58611979919655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the same time, I don't think he was the person who organized the training as training, the bigger picture of the training, the elements of the training. So he had his segment of it, which he used to great harm. And then there was the purpose of going in the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say great harm, would you expand a little bit on why you think it was such great? Now there were men in the group that if they were selected out, they would automatically become eligible for the draft."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some came in with high numbers and low numbers as I mentioned. Some of their draft boards said would recognize Peace Corps service as service. Some said their draft boards would not, so it was just a matter of when their numbers came up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that some had draft deferments and some did not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm not sure if you would call them draft deferments, but as I understood it, if the number came up, some draft boards would call and did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And get them right out of training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 39.54013311021839, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some came in with high numbers and low numbers as I mentioned. Some of their draft boards said would recognize Peace Corps service as service. Some said their draft boards would not, so it was just a matter of when their numbers came up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that some had draft deferments and some did not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm not sure if you would call them draft deferments, but as I understood it, if the number came up, some draft boards would call and did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And get them right out of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they took them right back to the draft board and whatever happened had to happen. Others, as I understood, if their number came up, the deferment would be recognized and then they'd be recycled in some fashion. As I recall it, and I am not sure I have the right names or timing of the events. One boy was called back from our group in training and his Peace Corps service would not be allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't have a deferment."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.822370122464875, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm not sure if you would call them draft deferments, but as I understood it, if the number came up, some draft boards would call and did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And get them right out of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they took them right back to the draft board and whatever happened had to happen. Others, as I understood, if their number came up, the deferment would be recognized and then they'd be recycled in some fashion. As I recall it, and I am not sure I have the right names or timing of the events. One boy was called back from our group in training and his Peace Corps service would not be allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't have a deferment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he ended up, where he ended up serving, but I think he did go in the military. One volunteer, whom I hold in extraordinary regard, said that he would not serve. I don't know if he would call himself a pacifist, but he had come to the conclusion that he could not serve in that war. And if he had to, he would go to Canada, and indeed he did. I think he came into country and perhaps then his number came up and he had to make the decision. As I understand it, he did go and I would use his name because I remember who he is, but I don't know, so I don't want to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But how does Tucker play into this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 47.58041124718319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they took them right back to the draft board and whatever happened had to happen. Others, as I understood, if their number came up, the deferment would be recognized and then they'd be recycled in some fashion. As I recall it, and I am not sure I have the right names or timing of the events. One boy was called back from our group in training and his Peace Corps service would not be allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't have a deferment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he ended up, where he ended up serving, but I think he did go in the military. One volunteer, whom I hold in extraordinary regard, said that he would not serve. I don't know if he would call himself a pacifist, but he had come to the conclusion that he could not serve in that war. And if he had to, he would go to Canada, and indeed he did. I think he came into country and perhaps then his number came up and he had to make the decision. As I understand it, he did go and I would use his name because I remember who he is, but I don't know, so I don't want to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But how does Tucker play into this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he is this person who is designing, I guess, or had designed, some sort of process for analyzing each person. And I don't know if his process of analyzing each person really was the ultimate decision making of whether you went into country or not, or whether his analysis was only sort of gathered with, for example, the Spanish teachers and these other more, to me are not perfectly memorable, people who were more work-based, you know. These were teaching us about what we would actually do in country, which seemed kind of more important than whatever this D group business was. But whatever data was being collected on comments, there was a session at some point where we were supposed to write down comments about other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 51.30987844411399, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we weren't sure how we were selected in, except we had to choose an area. And they said, well, there are only so many slots. And so if you don't choose an area that has a slot, then you can't go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this in Puerto Rico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is in training in Puerto Rico. We didn't have any training in Costa Rica."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you chose your site when you were still in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't choose it. Actually, they were showed us some sites on a map and they described them. And as it turned out, John Dellaverson, my dear friend John, Frankson Sally, whom we call Paco, my dear friend, and I made a team. And you couldn't have had three more disparate people in the world, and we adore each other to this day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were allowed to choose your partner."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 25, "return_to_go": 58.407257338412336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't choose it. Actually, they were showed us some sites on a map and they described them. And as it turned out, John Dellaverson, my dear friend John, Frankson Sally, whom we call Paco, my dear friend, and I made a team. And you couldn't have had three more disparate people in the world, and we adore each other to this day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were allowed to choose your partner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not sure actually whether we sort of fell into it because we were not, you know, close personal friends coming into the Peace Corps together or anything. We obviously didn't room together. But somehow in shifting out these little groups, the three of us said, great. And Frank, unfortunately, is not here for this reunion where we're doing this taping. John is coming and I am just beside myself to see him because I haven't seen him in many, many years. I have seen John and Paco since we finished our Peace Corps service, but not anywhere recently, and certainly not enough. I thank them because although we hardly ever saw each other as it turned out, because our sights were far apart and because of the rainy season and riding the horses you couldn't get through, and all this. We really didn't see each other, but we had a bond that transcends the Peace Corps. It's transcended the vagaries of life. It's as though they are annealed to me, and I have only two other people I can describe like that. One would be my law partner and the other is my new husband. And John and Paco and Jennifer. But John and Paco is my teammates. We had a great theory about what we were going to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And a site we were going to go do it in. And then it just changed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But this all happened in training in Puerto Rico? And then how and describe how you got to Costa Rica, what your initial impression was, and what happened to your team."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.85775342589738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, if you had a horse, I later had a horse, but I mean, everybody rode horses there. I mean, we're in the middle of nowhere. Nobody has any motorized vehicles. This is a rural setting. What I would compare it to, not having been in the Midwest in the United States, a little bit like Colorado or Wyoming, Montana. Um, corn, dry rice, and beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cattle. I was looking at my letters. I would have said about five hundred people in a five-mile radius. One of my letters said maybe it was a guess on my part. Seven hundred. Most families had between two and 13 children. The men, well, the people who live there are primarily of Indian descent, Nicaraguan in great part. There were certain tribes that came and I can't remember, I'm embarrassed to say, the principal tribe. But they were small, lithe, beautiful dark glossy hair, very deeply brown skin, extraordinarily mild mannered, not with the drinking and a few other things, kind, shy, gracious, quiet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They spoke Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They speak Spanish. There was no Indian dialect that I know of. And they spoke very nice Spanish, very formal Spanish. In Costa Rica, I did not learn the form of tu. Everything was usted. And we even talked to the trees and the tables and chairs in usted, you know? So it was wonderful in that sense because it was a Spanish that you could take with you. And the vocabulary I thought was, although I talk about it, my letters I was reading, it was a, I mean, I guess, a vocabulary focused on that world, which was an agrarian world. But it was a community, very spread out, little tiny little shacks people lived in. Just you never knew where you might find one, just sort of scattered. And the landscape was flat, cattle grazing. Most of the land was owned by absentee landlord."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from the water, from either the gulf or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.50861491766375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cattle. I was looking at my letters. I would have said about five hundred people in a five-mile radius. One of my letters said maybe it was a guess on my part. Seven hundred. Most families had between two and 13 children. The men, well, the people who live there are primarily of Indian descent, Nicaraguan in great part. There were certain tribes that came and I can't remember, I'm embarrassed to say, the principal tribe. But they were small, lithe, beautiful dark glossy hair, very deeply brown skin, extraordinarily mild mannered, not with the drinking and a few other things, kind, shy, gracious, quiet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They spoke Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They speak Spanish. There was no Indian dialect that I know of. And they spoke very nice Spanish, very formal Spanish. In Costa Rica, I did not learn the form of tu. Everything was usted. And we even talked to the trees and the tables and chairs in usted, you know? So it was wonderful in that sense because it was a Spanish that you could take with you. And the vocabulary I thought was, although I talk about it, my letters I was reading, it was a, I mean, I guess, a vocabulary focused on that world, which was an agrarian world. But it was a community, very spread out, little tiny little shacks people lived in. Just you never knew where you might find one, just sort of scattered. And the landscape was flat, cattle grazing. Most of the land was owned by absentee landlord."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from the water, from either the gulf or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I was way inland. I was way away from water. Nicoya is about right in the middle of the peninsula. And although I was northeast of it, I never saw the water. I mean, it was miles and miles, and they didn't even have any roads. I mean, there was no way to go to the water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first arrived in your site, was there a place for you to stay? Was there a little hotel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 36.01268046248548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nothing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone without electricity that was. With any kind of, was there any?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the two families that had the tiendas. And I mean, people did, they didn't have gas or anything like that, but they cooked with leña, with wood. But it was very expensive to get and it was hard to get and you had to go out and cut it and bring it and dry it and all this. And so it really wasn't used a lot. When I was teaching my health and nutrition classes, the problem was they had lots of orange trees. Not like our oranges in America, but a variation or cousin. And they were called naranjas, and they didn't have much flavor. So when you cut the juice and you drank it, it was almost like water with a slight, just a touch of flavoring and a touch of color barely. The oranges weren't orange like ours. They were more green with a little orange and yellow color. So the juice was very, very pale. And if they drank the juice, it would have been great, but they would drink the juice mixed with the water. So all the children had parasites, and that was part of my deal was to talk about boiling the water. Boil it before you use it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How realistic do you think that was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other people drank coffee. A lot of, they drink, and I don't drink coffee, which was in a way a shame because that would, of course, been boiled."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was their coffee boiled?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.182131000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there wasn't anything more for me to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Either they would put it back together as a community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I didn't walk out the next day. I mean, this is several months later, and so I didn't even know what I could do or where I could go. And as it turned out, John and Paco ended up going to the very south of the country to the site that they had told us was not a site. And it turned out to be, as I understood, a great experience for them. I don't think I ever got there. I went to the capital city and I had a choice of either going to Nicoya to work with the high school. I can't remember quite now exactly what the job would be, or something involving kids. I had a choice of going to the capital city and working at the National School for Special Education, Enseñanza Especial. Or there was some other kind of job, maybe in the capital city. I had written them down in my letters to my parents, and I thought, no, I've never. Knew nothing about education, nothing about children, nothing about blindness. I'd like to go and do this job. And so that was a second chapter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you keep any contact with your original site when you went?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.424590000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Either they would put it back together as a community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I didn't walk out the next day. I mean, this is several months later, and so I didn't even know what I could do or where I could go. And as it turned out, John and Paco ended up going to the very south of the country to the site that they had told us was not a site. And it turned out to be, as I understood, a great experience for them. I don't think I ever got there. I went to the capital city and I had a choice of either going to Nicoya to work with the high school. I can't remember quite now exactly what the job would be, or something involving kids. I had a choice of going to the capital city and working at the National School for Special Education, Enseñanza Especial. Or there was some other kind of job, maybe in the capital city. I had written them down in my letters to my parents, and I thought, no, I've never. Knew nothing about education, nothing about children, nothing about blindness. I'd like to go and do this job. And so that was a second chapter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you keep any contact with your original site when you went?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went back to my site several times. I can't remember if I stayed overnight or when. My parents had come to visit before I left, and that was a big, a big deal. I came back and had a big party for the children. Excuse me, I think I'm noting in my letter. I remember when I left, I think it meant maybe it was for the inauguration of the nutrition center was the last time I went, at least to see it, and it was almost finished. There was no great despedida either, great big goodbye. And maybe they thought I had left them or abandoned them. And I think I sort of felt as though it was, it had ended. It was over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what about your time in San Jose?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00228:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went back to my site several times. I can't remember if I stayed overnight or when. My parents had come to visit before I left, and that was a big, a big deal. I came back and had a big party for the children. Excuse me, I think I'm noting in my letter. I remember when I left, I think it meant maybe it was for the inauguration of the nutrition center was the last time I went, at least to see it, and it was almost finished. There was no great despedida either, great big goodbye. And maybe they thought I had left them or abandoned them. And I think I sort of felt as though it was, it had ended. It was over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what about your time in San Jose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I taught at the National School for Special Education, teaching blind children, and I help them with their schoolwork, and I took them on little excursions around town and took them to the swimming pool, which was a big deal, across town on the bus. And I lost one child one day and that was all. That's a complicated story, but I found the child. These were children, I would have to say, all some of them, I think, perhaps came from families that were fairly poor. I think they were basically on scholarship. They boarded, so they didn't go home to their homes. I was more of, uh, an assistant like you would have in a school room, I think, going around helping them with their schoolwork, helping them with their little daily living skills, playing with them, talking with them. I learned about children and learned about visual impairment and gained great respect for the effort that was being made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like it was a totally different experience in terms of responsibility, in terms of support, in terms of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had no Peace Corps support there either, but I made my own job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, and you had other people to be with that were."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.101337505229544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The older pilots who were qualified on those airplanes served as instructor pilots, and they checked me out. Of course I had the Navy flying experience, so I wasn’t a complete novice or beginner, but it was nice to have these very experienced guys in these different airplanes give you the checkout. One fellow on the amphibian, the pilot that checked me out, Bill [William L.] Alford, he was a [Consolidated] PBY [Catalina] pilot in World War II. He flew them all over the Pacific and tremendous background before he went into research. So that was the idea, that people [with more experience] were training the new people coming in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the helicopter. You hadn’t flown helicopters before that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had not flown helicopters before, and that was a new checkout for me there too, was flying helicopters. That was interesting, and that was a challenge. When I was in the Navy flying fighters, I thought the helicopter pilots were just to pick us up out of the ocean when we ejected, but then I found they did a lot more with helicopters and research, and Langley was doing a lot of helicopter research. One of the first programs I had was a little Bell 47 helicopter, and it was a hand-me-down program. It wasn’t finished, but two or three of the other pilots had flown a portion of it. They put me on it to close it out, so I had to gather up all their data, figure out what was tested, figure out what I was going to flight test to fill in the blanks, and then get a report on it. That was one of my first applications of research in helicopters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the first report you had written?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the first tech [technical] report I was involved in, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After reading them when you were in college and then actually getting to write one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 45.66815278358838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had not flown helicopters before, and that was a new checkout for me there too, was flying helicopters. That was interesting, and that was a challenge. When I was in the Navy flying fighters, I thought the helicopter pilots were just to pick us up out of the ocean when we ejected, but then I found they did a lot more with helicopters and research, and Langley was doing a lot of helicopter research. One of the first programs I had was a little Bell 47 helicopter, and it was a hand-me-down program. It wasn’t finished, but two or three of the other pilots had flown a portion of it. They put me on it to close it out, so I had to gather up all their data, figure out what was tested, figure out what I was going to flight test to fill in the blanks, and then get a report on it. That was one of my first applications of research in helicopters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the first report you had written?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the first tech [technical] report I was involved in, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After reading them when you were in college and then actually getting to write one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, and reports at NACA, and NASA, they were really massaged. When something hit the streets, was published, it had been through a lot of review boards, a lot of exercise, and a lot of critics and contributions along the way. It was an interesting exposure, and that was part of my training, part of my getting ready with the system. I went through the whole process with review boards and changes and updates and on and on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your book [The Smell of Kerosene: A Test Pilot’s Odyssey], you mention that—this is a quote from your book: “Accomplishing a task involves both art and science, especially true of flying.” I thought that was a pretty interesting way of describing it, and I didn’t know if you wanted to expand on that a little bit and explain what you meant about that combination of art and science."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 49.63128087065376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the first tech [technical] report I was involved in, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After reading them when you were in college and then actually getting to write one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, and reports at NACA, and NASA, they were really massaged. When something hit the streets, was published, it had been through a lot of review boards, a lot of exercise, and a lot of critics and contributions along the way. It was an interesting exposure, and that was part of my training, part of my getting ready with the system. I went through the whole process with review boards and changes and updates and on and on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your book [The Smell of Kerosene: A Test Pilot’s Odyssey], you mention that—this is a quote from your book: “Accomplishing a task involves both art and science, especially true of flying.” I thought that was a pretty interesting way of describing it, and I didn’t know if you wanted to expand on that a little bit and explain what you meant about that combination of art and science."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the science part is probably the knowledge of the equations, like in aircraft, equations in motion; the dynamics of aircraft; the numbers of aircraft; the systems of aircraft. And the art is the ability of a person to integrate this all into the flying inputs and the controlling of the aircraft and operating the aircraft. Just like driving a race car or other coordination tasks, there’s variation between people. We all have to have a certain ability to accomplish a task, but there are variations in pilot’s performance abilities. I used to refer to a pilot that learned quickly and adapted to the flight task, as a natural. It seemed like the art of flying was easy and natural for him. He was like the Smiling Jack, a cartoon aviator, who flew everything and did everything well. You’d look at a fellow like that and say, “Well, he’s a natural.” And there were people that were almost natural in the flying ability, or what I consider the art of flying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did mention that in your book, too, those natural pilots, but I don’t think you considered yourself a natural pilot."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 48.84850975113653, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You could breathe, yes. We ran several two- or three-day programs before the final one-week program. We worked up to it. Then the final one was the trip to the Moon and back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find anything out about yourself? I mean, did you do okay with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not too much. It sort of came out as the pilots expected it would. After a while—we slept in four-hour cycles, and that’s the way it was scheduled. You always had the humming of the motors and instrumentation in the background to help you sleep, and at first you didn’t sleep that well, and then later on you got used to it. We had sleep cycles, work cycles, all that was part of the program. I think everybody came through pretty good. The psychologist was sort of cute. He would interview everybody afterwards, and he asked the pilot from Ames, he said, “Why were you still taking your antihistamine pills? You know you were in a controlled environment, there was no dust in there.” They had air-conditioning and all this going on. I think He was just trying to see if the guy would get upset, but he didn’t.\\n\\n He said, “I took them out of habit, I guess.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there simulators for the different aircraft that you flew at Langley?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I started out with the [Bell] H-13 [Sioux] helicopters, HRS, which was a helicopter that we used to launch models of different military aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you about that. That’s interesting, that you took the models up and launched them from the helicopters?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 54.66861834232141, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I had enough background and experience flying Navy planes and knowing what they did with the planes in the service, that it wasn’t a good thing to do until they really were sure what was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you mentioned, too, that the [North American] JF-100-C [Super Sabre] was another lesson. You were talking about flying difficult-to-handle aircraft over and over, and the pilots start compensating for that, which isn’t helpful when you’re trying to determine those safety issues."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting in that they used to claim that—and it’s true—that the military pilots flew some of the airplanes during World War II, like the [Republic] P-47 Thunderbolt, and the ones that flew them in combat, they swore by them, that they were great airplanes, and they were. They did a super job with them. But on some of the stability and control tests, they were borderline. The idea was, when a fellow flew something like that long enough, he adapted to it, he became accustomed to it, and he supplied the stability and control, but perhaps a new guy, just off the street or just starting, might not. So from the designer’s standpoint, you wanted the best handling qualities you could design into the airplane, along with the fact that it could perform and do its mission too. That came up and it was obvious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought that was an interesting point, because people do tend to do that, and you compensate for things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And test pilots do, too, I think, with time. You try to learn not to, you try to be very positive in your evaluations, but sometimes if you’ve been working with it for a long time, it sort of becomes old hat, you have adapted to it yourself. Doesn’t make it that good, your handling of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assume that you would have to step back sometimes and realize that you’re doing that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 60.742909269246006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting in that they used to claim that—and it’s true—that the military pilots flew some of the airplanes during World War II, like the [Republic] P-47 Thunderbolt, and the ones that flew them in combat, they swore by them, that they were great airplanes, and they were. They did a super job with them. But on some of the stability and control tests, they were borderline. The idea was, when a fellow flew something like that long enough, he adapted to it, he became accustomed to it, and he supplied the stability and control, but perhaps a new guy, just off the street or just starting, might not. So from the designer’s standpoint, you wanted the best handling qualities you could design into the airplane, along with the fact that it could perform and do its mission too. That came up and it was obvious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought that was an interesting point, because people do tend to do that, and you compensate for things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And test pilots do, too, I think, with time. You try to learn not to, you try to be very positive in your evaluations, but sometimes if you’ve been working with it for a long time, it sort of becomes old hat, you have adapted to it yourself. Doesn’t make it that good, your handling of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assume that you would have to step back sometimes and realize that you’re doing that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You have to approach everything very critically and use the numbers that you see, the quantitative data, along with your qualitative data to verify what was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can see where that would be a problem over time.\\n\\n You also did some flying for the Little Joe project for the early rocket research. Didn’t you fly some of those planes? You were carrying photographers, I believe?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 66.38101029916223, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And test pilots do, too, I think, with time. You try to learn not to, you try to be very positive in your evaluations, but sometimes if you’ve been working with it for a long time, it sort of becomes old hat, you have adapted to it yourself. Doesn’t make it that good, your handling of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assume that you would have to step back sometimes and realize that you’re doing that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You have to approach everything very critically and use the numbers that you see, the quantitative data, along with your qualitative data to verify what was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can see where that would be a problem over time.\\n\\n You also did some flying for the Little Joe project for the early rocket research. Didn’t you fly some of those planes? You were carrying photographers, I believe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did photo missions for Little Joe, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about that for a second. That’s pretty interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00963:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 50.43165641969476, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fred Haise went with me, yes. They had two slots at that time for NASA, and I forgot how much it cost in those days, but it was very expensive, and NASA Headquarters came up with that money for that training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager was the Commandant at the time, wasn’t he?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He happened to be the Commandant at that time, yes, at the school. We didn’t see that much of him. He was doing a lot of politics. I never flew with him at the school. I flew with all the instructors and the pilots there, and he had a lot of talented people over at the school. I came back and flew over at NASA on the Lifting Body one day with Yeager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s an interesting story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was sort of interesting. We each took our turn flying it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The LLRV, being that was such an unusual vehicle—the flying bedstead—and the fact that, to simulate landing on the Moon, they had other options and other types of simulators that they were going to try, but this one really, from what the other pilots and the astronauts said, this one is the one that simulated the actual event so well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00762:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think so. Dan said—of course, you've probably chatted with him and George, but they had their own set of travails and risks, etc., but I think it's always been on a positive upward-leaning slope, that they really are making progress. We are all making progress. I still harbor the hope that we're going to get back to the Space Exploration Initiative and soon. I think it's about time. I think there's no question that the American public has an appetite and expectation for further exploration, human exploration, and I think the day is coming soon when we'll get another opportunity to put some more energy into that. Clearly, the assembly phase and initial phase of the Space Station is going to be an impetus. Soon people are going to ask, \"What's next?\" And I think we know the answer to what's next. It's just a matter of unveiling it at the proper time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must be a very good compliment for you. If they're asking \"What's next?\" then that means we're thinking ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so. Like I said, it's an enormous opportunity to be part of. I was real lucky to be there at an interesting time. As the Chinese say, be careful, may you live in interesting times. And I certainly got a chance to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have managed to provide so much information for us, and again in such a small amount of time. Do you have anything else that you would like to add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any contributions that you felt need to be noted?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 85.32272727318447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In fact, the gentleman who was the recruiter ended up being one of my line supervisors for probably five or six years when I first came to work here. His name was Charlie [C.] Allen. So that was the way I got here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you know about trajectory before you came to JSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s an interesting question. I remember in college when there was going to be a launch, because I was basically in college for the Mercury Program, we would always gather in a room with a big TV, and we would all watch it, so it was fascinating to me. I had an innate feeling about trajectory. I guess I always felt like—it felt right to me. If you add energy in the posigrade direction, the thing is going to go faster; it’s going to go up higher. That always felt—it was just an innate feeling. So I always enjoyed it when I got to work here. It felt like I was kind of made to do that or something. It worked out well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they interviewed you, was that specifically what they were interviewing you to do was to work in the trajectory area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. But until I got here and saw what it was, I’m not sure I really understood what trajectory meant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned they told you that there would be apartments. When you first came to this area, it was at that same time that they were moving from those leased buildings in Houston to actually the site here, which was then the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC]. Did you report at the buildings, or was the site open at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 88.13636363687164, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s an interesting question. I remember in college when there was going to be a launch, because I was basically in college for the Mercury Program, we would always gather in a room with a big TV, and we would all watch it, so it was fascinating to me. I had an innate feeling about trajectory. I guess I always felt like—it felt right to me. If you add energy in the posigrade direction, the thing is going to go faster; it’s going to go up higher. That always felt—it was just an innate feeling. So I always enjoyed it when I got to work here. It felt like I was kind of made to do that or something. It worked out well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they interviewed you, was that specifically what they were interviewing you to do was to work in the trajectory area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. But until I got here and saw what it was, I’m not sure I really understood what trajectory meant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you mentioned they told you that there would be apartments. When you first came to this area, it was at that same time that they were moving from those leased buildings in Houston to actually the site here, which was then the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC]. Did you report at the buildings, or was the site open at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Another good question. The first day I was at work was the day they were moving from HPC [Houston Petroleum Center] to Building 30, so everybody was in chaos. There were boxes everywhere; no work was really going on, and that’s kind of the way it was for the first week here. But my first day was the first day in Building 30, so I never had the experience of working up the freeway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned it was a little chaotic, but are there any other memories of that first week that stand out in your mind as far as some of the experiences of coming to this new place and in the heat?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 45.68006124833978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and that was probably part of it. Yes, it probably was. That’s a good insight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s talk about some of those other missions you mentioned, the unmanned mission. Were there other unmanned missions before Apollo 7 that you worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That I worked on—no. That was that other group that was off doing the Apollo unmanned high-velocity reentries, and I really did not work on those. I came back and did some Apollo 7 work, but it was peripheral. The guy that was doing the trajectory design for that had been working on Apollo Earth orbit for years, so it was normal for him to continue to do that.\\n\\n Kind of an interesting sideline; after he did that [flight, he] left NASA, and became a State Farm Insurance salesman in Nassau Bay [Texas] for the next twenty-five years. Dave [J.] Griffith. You probably saw his sign."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. That’s a different transition. I wouldn’t have expected that. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I might mention when I came to work, there was no aerospace engineers. It did not exist in 1964. One of the guys I worked with was a math teacher. Another one was a civil engineer. I was an engineering-physics graduate, which was kind of a combination of physics and electrical engineering. But we had no aero-engineers. It was anybody that understood math they would hire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned, you came from a small town, and then you went to a university in the same state you lived in, and then moving to Houston. People from all over, including Canada and England and with the AVRO [Aircraft, Ltd.] engineers that were coming in, and people from all over were coming in to work on these projects with you. What was that like to meet all these people from all over and get to work with them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.291130090838585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s okay. That Apollo 8 saved 1968."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we’ve heard that before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In retrospect, that was as meaningful as really what we did, because there was a lot of bad stuff. It was all negative. So that was really neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be a part of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be able to be proud of the fact that you had helped save the year, and save the nation at that point."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 26.990144545376204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In retrospect, that was as meaningful as really what we did, because there was a lot of bad stuff. It was all negative. So that was really neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be a part of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be able to be proud of the fact that you had helped save the year, and save the nation at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was a positive thing. I knew I was going to have trouble with it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s okay. Most people have problems with Apollo 8. We’ve had a lot of people. It was an emotional time for everyone."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.877938383751335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To be able to be proud of the fact that you had helped save the year, and save the nation at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was a positive thing. I knew I was going to have trouble with it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s okay. Most people have problems with Apollo 8. We’ve had a lot of people. It was an emotional time for everyone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That year was tough. You almost have to look back on it to appreciate that. When we get close to the end of this, I think you—I feel like when I was in the middle of it, it was fun, but you don’t have perspective on what you’re really doing and how it fits in. So that was something that I think was more emotional to me in perspective versus when I was just down in and doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, when you were in it, I’m sure you were just focused on doing your job, and that was the most important thing at that point."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.08659820416815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was a positive thing. I knew I was going to have trouble with it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s okay. Most people have problems with Apollo 8. We’ve had a lot of people. It was an emotional time for everyone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That year was tough. You almost have to look back on it to appreciate that. When we get close to the end of this, I think you—I feel like when I was in the middle of it, it was fun, but you don’t have perspective on what you’re really doing and how it fits in. So that was something that I think was more emotional to me in perspective versus when I was just down in and doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, when you were in it, I’m sure you were just focused on doing your job, and that was the most important thing at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, Apollo 8, being Christmas Eve and the reading and everything, it was a special time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 35.651775782409054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That year was tough. You almost have to look back on it to appreciate that. When we get close to the end of this, I think you—I feel like when I was in the middle of it, it was fun, but you don’t have perspective on what you’re really doing and how it fits in. So that was something that I think was more emotional to me in perspective versus when I was just down in and doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, when you were in it, I’m sure you were just focused on doing your job, and that was the most important thing at that point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, Apollo 8, being Christmas Eve and the reading and everything, it was a special time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was really unbelievable. We just sat there in the Control Center and watched the pictures coming back of the lunar surface. People were just in awe. People would talk about what they were seeing, because a lot of the times—because I was on the shift when we went into orbit and then they came from behind the Moon, and they started showing pictures. I got to be the prime shift, so that was neat. But there was a lot of times where people were just totally quiet. I don’t think anybody knew exactly what to say. It was a meaningful time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being in the back room, you could see the pictures at the same time they could in the Mission Control Room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.3908619804545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, Apollo 8, being Christmas Eve and the reading and everything, it was a special time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was really unbelievable. We just sat there in the Control Center and watched the pictures coming back of the lunar surface. People were just in awe. People would talk about what they were seeing, because a lot of the times—because I was on the shift when we went into orbit and then they came from behind the Moon, and they started showing pictures. I got to be the prime shift, so that was neat. But there was a lot of times where people were just totally quiet. I don’t think anybody knew exactly what to say. It was a meaningful time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being in the back room, you could see the pictures at the same time they could in the Mission Control Room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, it was piped to all of us, and there was a lot of people there then that—I don’t know; it was entirely different. I think it was back to doing something first and being part of that. It had been a couple of years since we’d had that feeling, so it was good to get it back. If you think about it, it had probably been in late ’66, and here it was late ’68, and we finally felt like we were back on track again.\\n\\n Apollo 7 was important, but it kind of was hardware related, and trajectory-wise, we had done that several times. This was entirely different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was that free-return trajectory. Maybe for a minute, if you don’t mind just talk about the free-return as opposed to a non-free-return trajectory?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.05, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Basically, it was assembling trajectory work that had been done by a variety of people, and it wasn’t that I was doing hands-on generating of the data. I had some responsibility to verify it and be sure it was consistent, but it wasn’t the hands-on work that I had done for early Gemini. So the feeling of contributing was a degree or so less."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s what you did through the rest of the Apollo Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The truth is that I went once and told my boss I needed more to do, and his response was, “Well, don’t tell anybody that. We’re trying to get more work.”\\n\\n I didn’t want to go behind his back, but that was part of what motivated me to go and say, “Hey, I’d like to go back and work in this other branch,” and kind of start over where I was three or four years ago, because I felt like I could contribute more. I don’t think it made anybody upset, because I think the area I was in had too many people. The fact that I chose to go find something else was probably okay with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you move into that other area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember exactly. I would say ’77 or ’78. So there was a period of about five years there where I felt adrift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement at all with Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP] or Skylab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 14.5, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The truth is that I went once and told my boss I needed more to do, and his response was, “Well, don’t tell anybody that. We’re trying to get more work.”\\n\\n I didn’t want to go behind his back, but that was part of what motivated me to go and say, “Hey, I’d like to go back and work in this other branch,” and kind of start over where I was three or four years ago, because I felt like I could contribute more. I don’t think it made anybody upset, because I think the area I was in had too many people. The fact that I chose to go find something else was probably okay with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you move into that other area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember exactly. I would say ’77 or ’78. So there was a period of about five years there where I felt adrift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement at all with Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP] or Skylab?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The data management time, yes. That was another example of—and I’ll throw stones here—where the Branch Chief wound up doing some of the basic work and wound up doing the travel to Russia and that sort of thing. I might have done the same thing if I had been Branch Chief; I’m not being holier than thou. I would say, roughly, we had work to keep 25 percent of the people busy, and so it was not a good time for a lot of people as far as having heavy work content."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned, the seventies was a little bit different time as far as that transition, and there were a lot of people, and I think some of the RIFs [Reduction in Force] were starting in the seventies. So the whole atmosphere at the Center, not in just your area, was a little different. Do you feel like everyone was feeling that everywhere?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00146:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll just mention that I tended to get more involved with activities outside of JSC because I wasn’t challenged as much at work. I was active in church. I was active in things like the Indian Princess and Indian Guides. The JSC community has what they call the EAA, Employees Activities Association. I wound up being Vice President and President of that off and on for ten years, so looking back in perspective, not being challenged totally at work, I think I went outside that environment to get some challenges. And I actually wound up, I think, educating myself, taking some courses and having some personal growth in that time period. So it wasn’t maybe a total loss, but it was so different from the sixties. The work environment was just very frustrating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I did see your name quite a few times in the [Space News] Roundup as far as the picnic and organizing those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think I developed some skills there that eventually wound up back at work, and I took some courses, like I said, but it was kind of filling the void."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if you’d like, we can stop for today before we move on into Shuttle. It’s getting close to the time. Do you think that would be a good breaking point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good breaking point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Why don’t we do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 51.559460260425666, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it’s quite different. But in its own way just as effective, and a heck of a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you enjoy that part? Obviously you enjoyed that one, but some of the others, like 60 Minutes or Nova, or any of the ones that are more of a mass audience instead of, say, at a conference or smaller market."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do enjoy it. I do it out of a sense of responsibility, it’s part of the job that I signed up for. But yes, I do enjoy it. I like teaching. I teach courses at Cornell that have 200, 300 students sometimes. I enjoy taking the stuff that I feel passionate about and sharing it with people. That’s fun for me.\\n\\n If I had to go on television and get interviewed about something I didn’t care about or some topic I wasn’t happy about, that would not be any fun, no. But getting to share something I’m deeply passionate about with people, yes, what’s wrong with that? That’s fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet it would be. Because of that you actually won an award in 2009, the Carl Sagan Medal [for Excellence in Public Communication in Planetary Science] of the American Astronomical Society. They recognized you as a planetary scientist for excellence in public communication. Knowing him, and knowing that that was important to him and then to win that prize, I would imagine would be amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a good feeling, just because that award was inspired by Carl and named after him. To be one of the many recipients of that was a real honor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We talked about some of the other things that you were an investigator on, some of the other missions. There were a few that we didn’t really discuss I thought maybe you might want to mention a few things about. One of them was the Mars Express mission in 2003 for ESA [European Space Agency]. You were a coinvestigator on the High Resolution Stereo Camera."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 58.654952346262924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Both that and the Cassini mission to Saturn—my participation in those two were effectively casualties of the long life of the MER mission. All of those happened in more or less the same timeframe, 2003, 2004. I thought we’d get more than three months—I thought we’d get six months, maybe a year out of Spirit and Opportunity. And then once that was done and we wrote some papers, then I would be able to turn my attention to these other missions, Cassini and Mars Express, that I was involved in.\\n\\n That opportunity never came. So while I was originally part of those teams and made the contributions I could make during the formulation phases of those missions, once they actually arrived at the destinations and started doing science, I was still so busy with the rovers that I didn’t have much opportunity to participate. Unfortunately, my participation in those two missions and also the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter—that’s another one—has been very, very limited. Simply because the rovers have lasted so much longer than ever anticipated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that the same with Odyssey also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Mars Odyssey is another one. I was more involved in that one than I was in some of the others. But all of them, my participation wound up being much more limited than I would have liked it to be, simply because my role in the rover mission is of course very different. All those other missions, I’m a coinvestigator. I’m one of many making small contributions to the project, that’s the idea. Whereas the role that I have on MER is all-consuming. It didn’t end when I thought, hasn’t ended yet. We’re doing flight operations tomorrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One that is coming to the end right now is Cassini, which is pretty interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. What a magnificent mission that has been. Just hats off, man. That has been absolutely spectacular in every way. Just a brilliant piece of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It really has, just unbelievable."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 65.17216927362547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Mars Odyssey is another one. I was more involved in that one than I was in some of the others. But all of them, my participation wound up being much more limited than I would have liked it to be, simply because my role in the rover mission is of course very different. All those other missions, I’m a coinvestigator. I’m one of many making small contributions to the project, that’s the idea. Whereas the role that I have on MER is all-consuming. It didn’t end when I thought, hasn’t ended yet. We’re doing flight operations tomorrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One that is coming to the end right now is Cassini, which is pretty interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. What a magnificent mission that has been. Just hats off, man. That has been absolutely spectacular in every way. Just a brilliant piece of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It really has, just unbelievable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going out in style, too. It’s great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, definitely. One of the things, I guess we can talk about it—I’m not sure exactly what your involvement has been, other than with the decadal study, but the research on the habitability or the existence of liquid water on Europa."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.42, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my goodness, no. It is such a privilege to be part of a NEEMO crew, and then to be on two—hardly anyone has gotten a chance to do that. I was so lucky to be on two crews. I would do anything to go back and be a support diver, if I could make it work with my schedule.\\n\\n You’ve got to realize—you got this crew of four in the habitat. There are two more individuals in the habitat whose job it is to run the habitat, be safety divers, keep everything working. But then there’s a top-side crew, mission control, the submarine pilots. There’s a huge top-side crew that’s working, and a lot of support divers.\\n\\n The support divers are bringing down groceries and taking up our trash and just looking after things. We would dive with helmets and then there would be these hoses, these tethers, that would bring air into our helmets, and there’d be a diver just tending your tether, just holding your tether so it doesn’t get tangled up.\\n\\n These are scuba divers who are just working, working, working, doing two, three dives a day, on a boat that’s pitching and rolling around in the waves overhead. It’s hard, hard work. We were completely dependent on those support divers who just did an amazing job for us. I would love to go back as a support diver someday and just do that to pay off that debt, because they took very good care of us down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Aquarius, does it stay there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So with this most recent storm I’m hoping everything’s okay with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have not heard. I have not heard, and believe me I’ve been worried about it. When Hurricane Irma came through—the thing is designed to withstand a substantial hurricane, but I simply have not heard what’s happened as a consequence of Irma."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I hadn’t either until we’re doing this, and I haven’t seen anything online about it, so I was just curious. Because that was a substantial hurricane."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So with this most recent storm I’m hoping everything’s okay with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have not heard. I have not heard, and believe me I’ve been worried about it. When Hurricane Irma came through—the thing is designed to withstand a substantial hurricane, but I simply have not heard what’s happened as a consequence of Irma."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I hadn’t either until we’re doing this, and I haven’t seen anything online about it, so I was just curious. Because that was a substantial hurricane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it would be just such an interesting thing to do. There are so many things that you’ve done that you probably did not imagine doing when you first started out going to school and becoming a planetary geologist. Are there any other projects that you’ve worked on that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have not heard. I have not heard, and believe me I’ve been worried about it. When Hurricane Irma came through—the thing is designed to withstand a substantial hurricane, but I simply have not heard what’s happened as a consequence of Irma."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I hadn’t either until we’re doing this, and I haven’t seen anything online about it, so I was just curious. Because that was a substantial hurricane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it would be just such an interesting thing to do. There are so many things that you’ve done that you probably did not imagine doing when you first started out going to school and becoming a planetary geologist. Are there any other projects that you’ve worked on that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, I think we’ve hit most of them. I’m sort of at the stage in my career now where I’m still busy paying off debts. I had the good fortune to have so many people help me at different stages of my career, give me opportunities to do things. Right now I feel like the best thing for me to do is what I can to provide opportunities for young scientists and young engineers to advance their careers, give them opportunities, find ways to create things that’ll benefit other scientists.\\n\\n Back in the early days when I worked on Voyager, there were very senior scientists on Voyager. They were late enough in their career, they weren’t going to get anything out of it. It wasn’t like it was going to get them elected to the National Academy of Sciences, they already had been. They were just in it for the love of the game and for what they could do for ambitious youngsters.\\n\\n I’m at the point where if I can help some ambitious talented youngsters, that’s a good thing to do. So that’s where I’m focusing a lot of my energy these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s very good to hear, because we need people to do that. We definitely do, and to instill that interest and that excitement."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00891:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it would be just such an interesting thing to do. There are so many things that you’ve done that you probably did not imagine doing when you first started out going to school and becoming a planetary geologist. Are there any other projects that you’ve worked on that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, I think we’ve hit most of them. I’m sort of at the stage in my career now where I’m still busy paying off debts. I had the good fortune to have so many people help me at different stages of my career, give me opportunities to do things. Right now I feel like the best thing for me to do is what I can to provide opportunities for young scientists and young engineers to advance their careers, give them opportunities, find ways to create things that’ll benefit other scientists.\\n\\n Back in the early days when I worked on Voyager, there were very senior scientists on Voyager. They were late enough in their career, they weren’t going to get anything out of it. It wasn’t like it was going to get them elected to the National Academy of Sciences, they already had been. They were just in it for the love of the game and for what they could do for ambitious youngsters.\\n\\n I’m at the point where if I can help some ambitious talented youngsters, that’s a good thing to do. So that’s where I’m focusing a lot of my energy these days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s very good to hear, because we need people to do that. We definitely do, and to instill that interest and that excitement."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Believe me, I’m still having fun. Like I said, I was doing Opportunity rover operations all day yesterday, I’ll be doing it all day tomorrow, and I just love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s exciting. I do appreciate you giving us this time again and giving your time for this project. It really means a lot and we appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.86543669849473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Last time we talked a lot about your early days at NASA, a lot with the communications and your work in that area. We did talk some about your work in the advanced planning as well, future planning, but I wanted to go back first and ask you a couple of questions just on some of your thoughts on Apollo, even though you weren’t specifically involved with some of the missions. I’m sure you followed them as they were going along. Actually, when did you first learn about the lunar mission studies and their first efforts toward getting involved in that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was still at Langley [Research Center, Hampton Virginia], probably ’61, ’62, and I’m sure just after the President [John F. Kennedy] had made his grand announcement, and I was not privy to any of that work that was done before that at the time. Chuck [Charles W.] Mathews pulled me aside one day and said, “We need to look at Apollo’s ground support system.” That’s about the earliest I can recall. I don’t even really remember what we did about it, other than I’m sure that got us involved in the Deep Space Network [DSN], which up until that time had been virtually dedicated to the unmanned exploration satellites. You’re familiar with the Deep Space Network?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, run from JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. That became a major element of the network to support the lunar missions, but it had not yet been integrated into the manned spaceflight program at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in that whole integration process then?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.96159633166081, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was still at Langley [Research Center, Hampton Virginia], probably ’61, ’62, and I’m sure just after the President [John F. Kennedy] had made his grand announcement, and I was not privy to any of that work that was done before that at the time. Chuck [Charles W.] Mathews pulled me aside one day and said, “We need to look at Apollo’s ground support system.” That’s about the earliest I can recall. I don’t even really remember what we did about it, other than I’m sure that got us involved in the Deep Space Network [DSN], which up until that time had been virtually dedicated to the unmanned exploration satellites. You’re familiar with the Deep Space Network?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, run from JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. That became a major element of the network to support the lunar missions, but it had not yet been integrated into the manned spaceflight program at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in that whole integration process then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. Can’t remember much of the details on that. That’s about as early as I can recall getting involved in the Apollo Program. I was never hands-on on the Apollo Program. I was always downstream, upstream, in front of the Apollo Program, to some extent, which is the destiny of a person who’s in the planning business, I guess. So I just followed along behind the activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How closely did you follow any of the missions, even though you weren’t directly hands-on or directly involved?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.17955147962312, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. That became a major element of the network to support the lunar missions, but it had not yet been integrated into the manned spaceflight program at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in that whole integration process then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. Can’t remember much of the details on that. That’s about as early as I can recall getting involved in the Apollo Program. I was never hands-on on the Apollo Program. I was always downstream, upstream, in front of the Apollo Program, to some extent, which is the destiny of a person who’s in the planning business, I guess. So I just followed along behind the activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How closely did you follow any of the missions, even though you weren’t directly hands-on or directly involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just sitting in the back room of the control center, not always. Most of the major events I was elsewhere. I know you asked me where was I when we landed on the Moon, and to this day, I cannot recall that. It didn’t register that significantly, I guess, although I can remember looking up at the Moon at that time, and it was a bit impressive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think back at all during that time as they were in the process of landing on the Moon and think back to just the few years previous when Kennedy had made the announcement to go and all the things that had been done in between?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.643946088470134, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. Can’t remember much of the details on that. That’s about as early as I can recall getting involved in the Apollo Program. I was never hands-on on the Apollo Program. I was always downstream, upstream, in front of the Apollo Program, to some extent, which is the destiny of a person who’s in the planning business, I guess. So I just followed along behind the activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How closely did you follow any of the missions, even though you weren’t directly hands-on or directly involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just sitting in the back room of the control center, not always. Most of the major events I was elsewhere. I know you asked me where was I when we landed on the Moon, and to this day, I cannot recall that. It didn’t register that significantly, I guess, although I can remember looking up at the Moon at that time, and it was a bit impressive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think back at all during that time as they were in the process of landing on the Moon and think back to just the few years previous when Kennedy had made the announcement to go and all the things that had been done in between?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t recall. I don’t really recall that in that context."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just working on and doing your job then. It was all part of it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 27.382162320522372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just sitting in the back room of the control center, not always. Most of the major events I was elsewhere. I know you asked me where was I when we landed on the Moon, and to this day, I cannot recall that. It didn’t register that significantly, I guess, although I can remember looking up at the Moon at that time, and it was a bit impressive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you think back at all during that time as they were in the process of landing on the Moon and think back to just the few years previous when Kennedy had made the announcement to go and all the things that had been done in between?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t recall. I don’t really recall that in that context."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just working on and doing your job then. It was all part of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said you don’t recall specifically when they landed on the Moon. Do you recall anything surrounding the decision of Apollo 8 to go to the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.646847022802636, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t recall. I don’t really recall that in that context."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just working on and doing your job then. It was all part of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said you don’t recall specifically when they landed on the Moon. Do you recall anything surrounding the decision of Apollo 8 to go to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was all done—I was not involved in that set of decision-making activities. I was probably wrestling with AAP [Apollo Applications Program] at that time and with the Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] crowd, who were for the disabling, making the Skylab from a spent Saturn stage as opposed to launching a developed stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the wet workshop versus the dry workshop?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 25.163163358669593, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said you don’t recall specifically when they landed on the Moon. Do you recall anything surrounding the decision of Apollo 8 to go to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was all done—I was not involved in that set of decision-making activities. I was probably wrestling with AAP [Apollo Applications Program] at that time and with the Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] crowd, who were for the disabling, making the Skylab from a spent Saturn stage as opposed to launching a developed stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the wet workshop versus the dry workshop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s the game."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you explain a little bit about that and some of the differences and some of the pros and cons of each approach and how that process came about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 24.081618255668367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember. Doesn’t ring a bell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That’s fine. It’s certainly several years back and there was a lot going on, so we don’t expect you to remember everything in full detail.\\n\\n When you were beginning to look at it being Skylab, what were some of the other key issues? You talked about the wet workshop versus dry workshop and tying in some of the Earth observations work. Were there other issues you looked at at all, like dealing with the long-duration flights or how any of that would be different from Apollo and Mercury and Gemini?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just doesn’t ring a bell. I know my problem is, I’m always ahead of the programs, or was ahead of the programs. None of that comes back to me. It probably will later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine. You mentioned some of the other applications that you had been involved with, such as some of the satellites and even getting into solar energy, satellites of some of the other programs you’d been involved with. Were there others, too, that came along during this time frame that you were working on for applications or were those pretty much the primary—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rephrase the question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Basically, what were some of the other areas of applications that you explored besides like the Earth satellites? You had talked before about some communications satellites and solar energy satellites. Were there any other areas of focus for the Apollo applications?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.129033116525568, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Most of those studies that I was associated with were paperwork or software exercises. Some of the universities were running parallel R&D programs in some of these directions. But the advanced studies, depending on how far into the future they go, they don’t get a lot of funding. A lot of it’s done because of the intellectual challenge of those things. Small groups sit on the side lines and do that kind of thing, but for awhile NASA—and probably still does—put seed money into this game, which is mostly in the form of travel and supporting the appropriate documentation and publications and stuff like that. It’s a communications program, really. However, there was one—I don’t remember it well. No. Not coming."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Going back, jumping back to Skylab briefly, did you have any initial thoughts about the Skylab itself? We did talk some about space station in general last time, but just the idea of having a space station up there and how long it should be there dealing with some of these human issues on the long-duration flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was the first time they put anybody up there longer than whatever the length of the lunar mission was. So that was a great excitement for the physiological information. I know I was enthusiastic about the fact that they were going to do that program and that they did it. I think they visited three times. But it was somebody else’s program at that point in time. It was hardware and people and operations and all that good world. We were an advanced frame for all that, at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point in the planning for Skylab, you did have a little bit of involvement in proposing some names for some of the missions. I don’t know if you recall that at all. Some of those are quite entertaining choices [referring to documentation]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good heavens. Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We came across that when we were doing some of our research."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.587814573917298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was the first time they put anybody up there longer than whatever the length of the lunar mission was. So that was a great excitement for the physiological information. I know I was enthusiastic about the fact that they were going to do that program and that they did it. I think they visited three times. But it was somebody else’s program at that point in time. It was hardware and people and operations and all that good world. We were an advanced frame for all that, at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point in the planning for Skylab, you did have a little bit of involvement in proposing some names for some of the missions. I don’t know if you recall that at all. Some of those are quite entertaining choices [referring to documentation]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good heavens. Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We came across that when we were doing some of our research."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What were the names of the three missions?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All we’ve ever found is that they called them just Skylab. They called the first unmanned launch Skylab 1 and then the manned ones, Skylab 2, 3, and 4 and never had any specific names applied to them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.20868285990811, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good heavens. Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We came across that when we were doing some of our research."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What were the names of the three missions?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All we’ve ever found is that they called them just Skylab. They called the first unmanned launch Skylab 1 and then the manned ones, Skylab 2, 3, and 4 and never had any specific names applied to them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good heavens. I don’t remember any of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No? I was going to ask if you had any favorites off of that list."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.67631428878679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What were the names of the three missions?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All we’ve ever found is that they called them just Skylab. They called the first unmanned launch Skylab 1 and then the manned ones, Skylab 2, 3, and 4 and never had any specific names applied to them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good heavens. I don’t remember any of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No? I was going to ask if you had any favorites off of that list."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] Abraham, Martin, and John. Wasn’t that a song in the sixties?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King [Jr.] and John [F.] Kennedy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.896684307144183, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] Abraham, Martin, and John. Wasn’t that a song in the sixties?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King [Jr.] and John [F.] Kennedy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there was a song in the era that was “Abraham, Martin, and John.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“The Three Graces.” Wow. That would have been a good set. “The Three Fates.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I thought that one was kind of interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.662982563493536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there was a song in the era that was “Abraham, Martin, and John.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“The Three Graces.” Wow. That would have been a good set. “The Three Fates.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I thought that one was kind of interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know I used to play these games every now and again, but I don’t remember this. In fact, in there [referring to documentation] you mentioned the business about a memo proposing to build something out of spent stages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we did run across that as well. I don’t have that one handy, where you talked about using spent stages of the Apollo missions to build this space station. Actually, later on, probably after you had already left the office, there were some studies about using the external tanks off the Shuttle, boosting them into orbit and using those—are you familiar with those as well? I wonder what some of your thought would be on those."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.003682177152516, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know I used to play these games every now and again, but I don’t remember this. In fact, in there [referring to documentation] you mentioned the business about a memo proposing to build something out of spent stages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we did run across that as well. I don’t have that one handy, where you talked about using spent stages of the Apollo missions to build this space station. Actually, later on, probably after you had already left the office, there were some studies about using the external tanks off the Shuttle, boosting them into orbit and using those—are you familiar with those as well? I wonder what some of your thought would be on those."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was just shortly after I’d actually started with NASA with the business about using the spent stages. It’s simply because you can do so many things with just tubes, okay, and they were there. The last stage actually went into orbit, but rapidly decayed back down. It didn’t go very far. It wasn’t really a very intensive exercise, as I recall. Everybody was so busy trying to get things done back in those days, so that memo didn’t go very far.\\n\\n Was Skylab a sister of Apollo? I remember I had a book of Greek mythology sitting on the desk, and a lot of this stuff comes from not my in-depth knowledge of Greek mythology, but they always give it the names of the gods, whatever the gods are, right? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And most of the project names were being given Greek names at that point in time. How about that? Sneezy, Dopey, and Doc. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that shows some of the spirit, too, that surrounded, seems like NASA as a whole. Even though there was always the job to be done, and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.670757974613906, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was just shortly after I’d actually started with NASA with the business about using the spent stages. It’s simply because you can do so many things with just tubes, okay, and they were there. The last stage actually went into orbit, but rapidly decayed back down. It didn’t go very far. It wasn’t really a very intensive exercise, as I recall. Everybody was so busy trying to get things done back in those days, so that memo didn’t go very far.\\n\\n Was Skylab a sister of Apollo? I remember I had a book of Greek mythology sitting on the desk, and a lot of this stuff comes from not my in-depth knowledge of Greek mythology, but they always give it the names of the gods, whatever the gods are, right? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And most of the project names were being given Greek names at that point in time. How about that? Sneezy, Dopey, and Doc. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that shows some of the spirit, too, that surrounded, seems like NASA as a whole. Even though there was always the job to be done, and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn’t find the memo about crossing the International Date Line?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t run across it, but it may be there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.523064416237673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And most of the project names were being given Greek names at that point in time. How about that? Sneezy, Dopey, and Doc. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that shows some of the spirit, too, that surrounded, seems like NASA as a whole. Even though there was always the job to be done, and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn’t find the memo about crossing the International Date Line?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t run across it, but it may be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I vaguely recall writing one about the International Date Line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the Skylab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.287733847207, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I vaguely recall writing one about the International Date Line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the Skylab?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was something to do with the fact that people were traveling all over the world back then, and the Apollo and the Mercury crossed the International Date Line. As you cross the International Date Line, you lose a day or gain a way, whichever way it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "True."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So if you do that nine times in twelve hours, then— [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good point. That’s a very good point. Things could get very confused that way."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.319704274674443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was something to do with the fact that people were traveling all over the world back then, and the Apollo and the Mercury crossed the International Date Line. As you cross the International Date Line, you lose a day or gain a way, whichever way it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "True."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So if you do that nine times in twelve hours, then— [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good point. That’s a very good point. Things could get very confused that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, it was an interesting exercise if you didn’t realize that while you’re crossing the International Date Line and pick up a day, while you’re traveling the rest of the orbit, you’re losing a day, so you lose the same day you pick up as you cross, but nobody really tells you that. [Laughter] But it’s something about coming back to where you were before you left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's one of those concepts of orbital mechanics coming into play there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.03251615181679, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Perhaps this is a digression. Did you go to Dr. [Robert R.] Gilruth’s memorial service at the center?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you remember the story that Max [Maxime A.] Faget told about crossing the International Date Line and “taking all day”? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go. That’s the kind of thing we used to play with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s a pretty good one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.702795724240875, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you remember the story that Max [Maxime A.] Faget told about crossing the International Date Line and “taking all day”? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go. That’s the kind of thing we used to play with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s a pretty good one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How neat. Do we know who K.A. is? And who A.V.L. is [referring to same document]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not immediately offhand, but we can check. The phone books would be good, or the org charts."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.669773026934305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go. That’s the kind of thing we used to play with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s a pretty good one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How neat. Do we know who K.A. is? And who A.V.L. is [referring to same document]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not immediately offhand, but we can check. The phone books would be good, or the org charts."}, {"role": "user", "content": "E.R."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can certainly get you a copy of that and we can locate who those people might have been."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 32.96641447437145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How neat. Do we know who K.A. is? And who A.V.L. is [referring to same document]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not immediately offhand, but we can check. The phone books would be good, or the org charts."}, {"role": "user", "content": "E.R."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can certainly get you a copy of that and we can locate who those people might have been."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When did Skylab fly?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Skylab was in ’73. The first launch went up in May, and then the last one came down—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.1190302152734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When did Skylab fly?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Skylab was in ’73. The first launch went up in May, and then the last one came down—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And this is ’71."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years’ lead time. Was this out of the blue, or was this called? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That I don’t know. We just found it in the files. I think it says at the bottom which particular files it might have been. I’m guessing the Skylab chronological files maybe."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 41.24336690585933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And this is ’71."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years’ lead time. Was this out of the blue, or was this called? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That I don’t know. We just found it in the files. I think it says at the bottom which particular files it might have been. I’m guessing the Skylab chronological files maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t really read that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we have another copy of it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 44.714852117621476, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years’ lead time. Was this out of the blue, or was this called? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That I don’t know. We just found it in the files. I think it says at the bottom which particular files it might have been. I’m guessing the Skylab chronological files maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t really read that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we have another copy of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A.V.L. Who is A.V.L.? You gave me a list of places I worked for. Here we go. Is this out of what I said, or did you actually get this from other sources?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This actually we got from a variety of sources, including we did go through some of the files over in the history collection and they’ve got like official NASA bios, and then also out of the phone books is how we get some of that, is by looking in to see—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 40.794280130690524, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t really read that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we have another copy of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A.V.L. Who is A.V.L.? You gave me a list of places I worked for. Here we go. Is this out of what I said, or did you actually get this from other sources?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This actually we got from a variety of sources, including we did go through some of the files over in the history collection and they’ve got like official NASA bios, and then also out of the phone books is how we get some of that, is by looking in to see—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somewhere in a vault in a box I did a timeline of all the places I have worked for, all the number of people that have worked for me and how much money I was making. Because there was a lot of motion between the Flight Operations Directorate and the Engineering Directorate about who did planning in a directly responsible way, because as soon as the planning process becomes large enough to involve more than one person, it becomes an institutional element and politics suddenly become an issue, because you’re now talking about a number of people and a supervisor and a new grade and all sorts of other issues.\\n\\n We moved to E&D under Max Faget for a while. Then we got moved out of that whenever John [D.] Hodge created the Program Planning Office. When was that? Program Planning Office, John Hodge, it was a separate entity. Who did it report to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know we could check on that, because we talked with John Hodge, so I’m sure we’d have some research pulled on that that we could find that date."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.215866811878364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A.V.L. Who is A.V.L.? You gave me a list of places I worked for. Here we go. Is this out of what I said, or did you actually get this from other sources?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This actually we got from a variety of sources, including we did go through some of the files over in the history collection and they’ve got like official NASA bios, and then also out of the phone books is how we get some of that, is by looking in to see—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somewhere in a vault in a box I did a timeline of all the places I have worked for, all the number of people that have worked for me and how much money I was making. Because there was a lot of motion between the Flight Operations Directorate and the Engineering Directorate about who did planning in a directly responsible way, because as soon as the planning process becomes large enough to involve more than one person, it becomes an institutional element and politics suddenly become an issue, because you’re now talking about a number of people and a supervisor and a new grade and all sorts of other issues.\\n\\n We moved to E&D under Max Faget for a while. Then we got moved out of that whenever John [D.] Hodge created the Program Planning Office. When was that? Program Planning Office, John Hodge, it was a separate entity. Who did it report to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know we could check on that, because we talked with John Hodge, so I’m sure we’d have some research pulled on that that we could find that date."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It looks like it’s ’71, ’72, somewhere like that, because I know I went up on Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft’s staff, Flight Operations Directorate. That must have been ’66, ’68—Program Planning, Advanced Mission Program [Office], APO. Okay, 1968, that was APO. That was John Hodges’ program planning office, which is where the memo came from in 1971. So we must have been involved in setting it up at that point in time. No, I think that was probably just a distraction of the moment. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably. We just thought it was interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 38.01762979097596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somewhere in a vault in a box I did a timeline of all the places I have worked for, all the number of people that have worked for me and how much money I was making. Because there was a lot of motion between the Flight Operations Directorate and the Engineering Directorate about who did planning in a directly responsible way, because as soon as the planning process becomes large enough to involve more than one person, it becomes an institutional element and politics suddenly become an issue, because you’re now talking about a number of people and a supervisor and a new grade and all sorts of other issues.\\n\\n We moved to E&D under Max Faget for a while. Then we got moved out of that whenever John [D.] Hodge created the Program Planning Office. When was that? Program Planning Office, John Hodge, it was a separate entity. Who did it report to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know we could check on that, because we talked with John Hodge, so I’m sure we’d have some research pulled on that that we could find that date."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It looks like it’s ’71, ’72, somewhere like that, because I know I went up on Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft’s staff, Flight Operations Directorate. That must have been ’66, ’68—Program Planning, Advanced Mission Program [Office], APO. Okay, 1968, that was APO. That was John Hodges’ program planning office, which is where the memo came from in 1971. So we must have been involved in setting it up at that point in time. No, I think that was probably just a distraction of the moment. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably. We just thought it was interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There must be some remarkable things in the archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are. There’s a lot of interesting information there, some of which are a little human interest like this, and others that have got more technical information to them. It's pretty good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.68625532330662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It looks like it’s ’71, ’72, somewhere like that, because I know I went up on Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft’s staff, Flight Operations Directorate. That must have been ’66, ’68—Program Planning, Advanced Mission Program [Office], APO. Okay, 1968, that was APO. That was John Hodges’ program planning office, which is where the memo came from in 1971. So we must have been involved in setting it up at that point in time. No, I think that was probably just a distraction of the moment. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably. We just thought it was interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There must be some remarkable things in the archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are. There’s a lot of interesting information there, some of which are a little human interest like this, and others that have got more technical information to them. It's pretty good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Hodges’ Advanced Missions Program Office had three units to it, and Andre [J.] Meyer [Jr.]—there’s a name out of the blue—Andre Meyer ran one of those units. I believe Andre Meyer was the guy who was most involved in the definition of these near-term programs. My unit was probably involved in the longer-term programs, in a planning program sense, but we always used to meet in John’s staff meetings, and we all discussed each other’s business. That’s where that kind of thing came from. John would know the name of the other lad. Ray—no, Berglund—[Rene A.] Berglund?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bill [William B.] Bergen?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 40.76250591478513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There must be some remarkable things in the archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There are. There’s a lot of interesting information there, some of which are a little human interest like this, and others that have got more technical information to them. It's pretty good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Hodges’ Advanced Missions Program Office had three units to it, and Andre [J.] Meyer [Jr.]—there’s a name out of the blue—Andre Meyer ran one of those units. I believe Andre Meyer was the guy who was most involved in the definition of these near-term programs. My unit was probably involved in the longer-term programs, in a planning program sense, but we always used to meet in John’s staff meetings, and we all discussed each other’s business. That’s where that kind of thing came from. John would know the name of the other lad. Ray—no, Berglund—[Rene A.] Berglund?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bill [William B.] Bergen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Here’s where you have to have some telephone books."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can pull some of those here after we’re done and flip through them and see if the names come to mind.\\n\\n Speaking of different people that you worked with, were there certain individuals—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 44.180562127539034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Hodges’ Advanced Missions Program Office had three units to it, and Andre [J.] Meyer [Jr.]—there’s a name out of the blue—Andre Meyer ran one of those units. I believe Andre Meyer was the guy who was most involved in the definition of these near-term programs. My unit was probably involved in the longer-term programs, in a planning program sense, but we always used to meet in John’s staff meetings, and we all discussed each other’s business. That’s where that kind of thing came from. John would know the name of the other lad. Ray—no, Berglund—[Rene A.] Berglund?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bill [William B.] Bergen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Here’s where you have to have some telephone books."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can pull some of those here after we’re done and flip through them and see if the names come to mind.\\n\\n Speaking of different people that you worked with, were there certain individuals—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rene Berglund. There you go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there some of these people through your career at NASA that had a big influence on you or your career that you’d like to mention?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.953237053259244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and if you want some more on it, you ought to talk to Joe [Loftus]. There’s institutional elements all over the place now that relate to that subject, and it’s well published. In fact, periodically Joe sends me the latest epic on orbital debris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly going to become quite an issue in future years, I’m sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s an issue now. You’ll find it’s an element of space station design, spacecraft design, because it’s there. The shuttle is impacting it every time it goes up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I read an article recently that one of the very first satellites, it may have even been Explorer I, is still up there and it’s going to be for quite a few years to come."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. High-altitude, small, high-density satellites, they decay very slowly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Need places like NORAD [North American Aerospace Defense Command] to help keep track of a lot of that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.392485614732493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s an issue now. You’ll find it’s an element of space station design, spacecraft design, because it’s there. The shuttle is impacting it every time it goes up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I read an article recently that one of the very first satellites, it may have even been Explorer I, is still up there and it’s going to be for quite a few years to come."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. High-altitude, small, high-density satellites, they decay very slowly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Need places like NORAD [North American Aerospace Defense Command] to help keep track of a lot of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the original surveys that they do—and they still do it, I’m sure—just by the frequency of the radar equipment, would limit you to some resolution in terms of an arbitrary diameter. That was ten centimeters, which meant theoretically you would spot everything that was ten centimeters or above. But ten centimeters is a big chunk, and there was lots of that, okay. Then it gets exponentially higher as you go down looking for smaller particles, which are just equally as damaging. I know now they’ve been searching at the one- and two-centimeter range. Then the statistical exercises go on to fill in the gaps under that. So there’s a lot of it. All man-made. No, not true. Lots of it man-made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A large quantity of it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.102761794147213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. High-altitude, small, high-density satellites, they decay very slowly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Need places like NORAD [North American Aerospace Defense Command] to help keep track of a lot of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the original surveys that they do—and they still do it, I’m sure—just by the frequency of the radar equipment, would limit you to some resolution in terms of an arbitrary diameter. That was ten centimeters, which meant theoretically you would spot everything that was ten centimeters or above. But ten centimeters is a big chunk, and there was lots of that, okay. Then it gets exponentially higher as you go down looking for smaller particles, which are just equally as damaging. I know now they’ve been searching at the one- and two-centimeter range. Then the statistical exercises go on to fill in the gaps under that. So there’s a lot of it. All man-made. No, not true. Lots of it man-made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A large quantity of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And man-made is the stuff that tends to stay in orbit. Most of the natural stuff, meteroids, etc., tend to penetrate, but there’s lots of that, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space isn’t as empty as it seems."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.11417977127468, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the original surveys that they do—and they still do it, I’m sure—just by the frequency of the radar equipment, would limit you to some resolution in terms of an arbitrary diameter. That was ten centimeters, which meant theoretically you would spot everything that was ten centimeters or above. But ten centimeters is a big chunk, and there was lots of that, okay. Then it gets exponentially higher as you go down looking for smaller particles, which are just equally as damaging. I know now they’ve been searching at the one- and two-centimeter range. Then the statistical exercises go on to fill in the gaps under that. So there’s a lot of it. All man-made. No, not true. Lots of it man-made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A large quantity of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And man-made is the stuff that tends to stay in orbit. Most of the natural stuff, meteroids, etc., tend to penetrate, but there’s lots of that, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space isn’t as empty as it seems."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with NASA, what would you say was the biggest challenge for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 33.460199745860756, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And man-made is the stuff that tends to stay in orbit. Most of the natural stuff, meteroids, etc., tend to penetrate, but there’s lots of that, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Space isn’t as empty as it seems."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with NASA, what would you say was the biggest challenge for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only one I remember—challenge, challenge. Gosh. Public speaking. No doubt. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a big challenge."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.238957127381006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was never good at that, initially, anyway. It did not come as part of my persona to do a lot of public speaking, not necessarily public, but, you know, professional presentations and that good stuff. That came the hard way. There was no other option. You had to get up, so you would grab your self-consciousness and just charge. It’s always been a challenge. I come at it kind of naturally in this day and age just by association, but it’s like stage fright, I guess, that kind of thing. Don’t know what the source or the origin of that issue could be, but ultimately nobody even thought that you would have some reservation. Some weakness in your makeup perhaps is what it is. So you were just commissioned to go talk to this crowd, wherever they were. There was a lot of public speaking built into the business back in those days, and if you ever went on travel, invariably you got tagged to make a detour to go speak to this group, that group, or whatever.\\n\\n One of the more interesting—but it’s only a little side issue, side comment. Let’s see, I’ve forgotten their name. The female side of Masonry. Who are the Masons? Women’s Mason group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Eastern Star."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Daughters of the Eastern Star. I got tagged to talk to the Daughters of the Eastern Star here in Houston. I had never heard of them before, okay. [Laughter] One of the contractors around here tagged me one day. Two days’ notice. Would I come talk to the Daughters of the Eastern Star? Sure. It turned out to be their national convention."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they chose the space program as the theme for their meeting. It was in—where was it in? A hotel that got torn down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One down in Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 38.043285697090006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Daughters of the Eastern Star. I got tagged to talk to the Daughters of the Eastern Star here in Houston. I had never heard of them before, okay. [Laughter] One of the contractors around here tagged me one day. Two days’ notice. Would I come talk to the Daughters of the Eastern Star? Sure. It turned out to be their national convention."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they chose the space program as the theme for their meeting. It was in—where was it in? A hotel that got torn down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One down in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Houston. The old classic hotel that—anyway, it was a huge ballroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Has a Irish name. Shamrock, the Shamrock."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 41.159206330100005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they chose the space program as the theme for their meeting. It was in—where was it in? A hotel that got torn down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One down in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Houston. The old classic hotel that—anyway, it was a huge ballroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Has a Irish name. Shamrock, the Shamrock."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the Shamrock. The Shamrock, that’s it. It had a huge ballroom. So I showed up at the hotel reception area, and this guy called to me, and all of a sudden I was in this procession that marched through this huge—it was like a political convention. Anyway, they had this huge tier of people sitting up, VIP, two ranks. The floor was covered with all these wonderful circular tables, each one designated as a different country involved in the space program. I have never seen so much jewelry in my life. I mean, they were all beautiful people, but they really go all the way when they go for that kind of show. That was awesome, really awesome. They clapped at every word I said, and I don’t think they heard any of it. [Laughter] It was just national pride, that’s essentially what it was. We just talked about—and I had a movie clip on—it was just after the manned landing. Must have been, or at least I had a clip of the manned landing that was relatively short-term from that. That tends to stick in my mind. I don’t think I was their best speaker by any means, but it was an awesome show."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure you did very well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, having started this whole business with you and realizing that it takes all sorts of triggers that made me remember these things, I started writing my own history, if that’s the right word for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Sure it is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there are these target things keep cropping out and there are other things that spin off that. But the biggest trouble I have is putting them in chronological order. You know, I can roughly bracket them related the one to the other, but actually getting them in the right order takes all sorts of time and venture. Good it’s in a word processor so you take a chunk of it and move it up and down in the sequence. But sometimes you wind up bracketing in a subject matter that you just collectively discuss for a lifetime in one place, and you can’t spread it out because it’s a discipline of some kind or a specific subject of some kind. But it’s becoming an interesting exercise. There are still total blanks, like I don’t remember that [referring to earlier document] at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s okay. That’s something pretty small."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but there’s total blanks, but sometimes something triggers you and cracks it open a little and you can get inside it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure as you do more or more of it and more of those triggers go off, it’ll come back. Maybe as you, once you do get moved in, like you said, and are able to go through some of your boxes and papers, maybe that’ll even bring some stuff back, too."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there are these target things keep cropping out and there are other things that spin off that. But the biggest trouble I have is putting them in chronological order. You know, I can roughly bracket them related the one to the other, but actually getting them in the right order takes all sorts of time and venture. Good it’s in a word processor so you take a chunk of it and move it up and down in the sequence. But sometimes you wind up bracketing in a subject matter that you just collectively discuss for a lifetime in one place, and you can’t spread it out because it’s a discipline of some kind or a specific subject of some kind. But it’s becoming an interesting exercise. There are still total blanks, like I don’t remember that [referring to earlier document] at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s okay. That’s something pretty small."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but there’s total blanks, but sometimes something triggers you and cracks it open a little and you can get inside it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure as you do more or more of it and more of those triggers go off, it’ll come back. Maybe as you, once you do get moved in, like you said, and are able to go through some of your boxes and papers, maybe that’ll even bring some stuff back, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we wish all the luck with that and hope you have fun working on it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00163:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but there’s total blanks, but sometimes something triggers you and cracks it open a little and you can get inside it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure as you do more or more of it and more of those triggers go off, it’ll come back. Maybe as you, once you do get moved in, like you said, and are able to go through some of your boxes and papers, maybe that’ll even bring some stuff back, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we wish all the luck with that and hope you have fun working on it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll keep you posted. I’ll keep you posted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely, and thank you so much for sharing this with us, and hopefully this does give you a good launching platform."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.415022474295807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I really don’t understand. I did other studies, some of which were I’m not sure very important. Some of those took place after NACA. I went on with this analytical type stuff after NACA terminated. It continued, and then I got into various things, and that’s where I am. Now, I’ve been working for nothing for the last 30 years, no, not quite. I worked for a contractor after I retired from NASA. I retired in ’79, worked for a contractor for eight years, then I just donate my services because I didn’t feel I needed the income anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many reports do you think you’ve written?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe 30 or 40—I’m not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You published all of those, either in some form or another?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s pretty interesting, especially when you can go back, after all those years, and take a look at them now.\\n\\n Looking back at that time at the NACA, and you were talking about this one, you said you self-educated yourself on thermionics. Did you do that on other subjects as well, that you ended up having to do your own self-educating?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.572247193662006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe 30 or 40—I’m not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You published all of those, either in some form or another?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s pretty interesting, especially when you can go back, after all those years, and take a look at them now.\\n\\n Looking back at that time at the NACA, and you were talking about this one, you said you self-educated yourself on thermionics. Did you do that on other subjects as well, that you ended up having to do your own self-educating?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly no. Mostly, the rest of it was through courses that I took. My education at Antioch, for two-and-a-half or three years, was very weak. Then, I took the courses at Case and found out, well, hey, I’m in fact capable of what the other people were doing. I really felt, when I started, way at the bottom of the heap. All these kids were all educated. They were young. I had just started working at NACA in ’44, and they were all very young, and knew all about engines and reciprocating engines. No idea, so I’ve been self-educating or getting education from there on. It was really a struggle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think you learned from the NACA members that had been here for a while? What was the atmosphere for learning and for knowledge exchange?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.583021226743217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly no. Mostly, the rest of it was through courses that I took. My education at Antioch, for two-and-a-half or three years, was very weak. Then, I took the courses at Case and found out, well, hey, I’m in fact capable of what the other people were doing. I really felt, when I started, way at the bottom of the heap. All these kids were all educated. They were young. I had just started working at NACA in ’44, and they were all very young, and knew all about engines and reciprocating engines. No idea, so I’ve been self-educating or getting education from there on. It was really a struggle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think you learned from the NACA members that had been here for a while? What was the atmosphere for learning and for knowledge exchange?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was good. They had courses, training courses, that you could take. I took many, many. I think even back—this time goes into the NASA days—it started early on, courses in the operation of jet engines. I don’t know that I took any of those, but at some point, I took a couple of courses in quantum mechanics. They had fellows here that were teaching courses on site, and they were very valuable. They started in the NACA days, continued on, I don’t know whether they still exist now. I have no knowledge of what is done because I’m often in isolation, now. They were educating people on lab time, and I participated early on in a little of that, and the people that were hired in, some of them were very skilled in certain disciplines and were teaching people those things. Particularly in the days of the jet engines, how jet engines work. Maybe I took a course—I don’t remember now whether I took courses in that or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you always been in the field of engines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s just kind of where you started?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.758912474159128, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was good. They had courses, training courses, that you could take. I took many, many. I think even back—this time goes into the NASA days—it started early on, courses in the operation of jet engines. I don’t know that I took any of those, but at some point, I took a couple of courses in quantum mechanics. They had fellows here that were teaching courses on site, and they were very valuable. They started in the NACA days, continued on, I don’t know whether they still exist now. I have no knowledge of what is done because I’m often in isolation, now. They were educating people on lab time, and I participated early on in a little of that, and the people that were hired in, some of them were very skilled in certain disciplines and were teaching people those things. Particularly in the days of the jet engines, how jet engines work. Maybe I took a course—I don’t remember now whether I took courses in that or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you always been in the field of engines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s just kind of where you started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you share with us, where else have you been through these 70 years? Maybe give us some of the highlights of where you really enjoyed working and using your talents?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.954347193510142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s just kind of where you started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you share with us, where else have you been through these 70 years? Maybe give us some of the highlights of where you really enjoyed working and using your talents?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got into space power, and an issue there was heat transfer. Efficient mechanisms of heat transfer were discovered someplace along the line, so we got into something called heat pipes. I became very interested in that. In fact, basically, I’m stuck in that now because I wrote a code for analyzing heat pipes. About the year 2000 I did an analysis, and extended it and extended it and extended it, to analyze the operation of a heat pipe. This was nothing new, but I formalized it in a fashion that hadn’t been done before, and I wrote code. At this point, because it was now my own time, I didn’t care anymore. I just kept working on it and working on it and working on it, using the lab space and a lab computer, but not being paid anymore. Did what I felt like, which is basically what I’m doing now.\\n\\n The only thing is that the code recently became obsolete because of changes in computers, so now I’m trying to update the code to work in the latest computers. It’s really giving me difficulty because the code got to be very complicated, and it’s so complicated, I don’t understand it myself. I know that it works, but I can’t figure it out, and I wrote it. For me, what other people my age would be doing would be crossword puzzles or—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those math games, sudokus and all those, crosswords and cards?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.654797247613361, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m finding this to be still challenging, since I just turned 91 last Sunday."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Happy birthday."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I figured I’m possibly performing a service because this could be used again. They’re still working on space power and the code that I wrote is useful to people. I want to make sure that it’s republished in the modern form, and the same time, NASA can say that they’re friendly to senior citizens—which I don’t really consider myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think so. Maybe in about 30 years, but I think you’re still going. You’re talking about it, to make it more efficient, in the heat transfer and the heat pumps: I know you want to update your code, but when you get your code updated, how does it impact space power? How’s it going to help?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If they are going to transfer heat from, say, a little nuclear reactor or nuclear heat source to a little engine that’s going to produce the power, you have to have a mechanism of efficient transfer of heat. A heat pipe is the most efficient transfer of heat that exists because for one thing, it has no moving parts. There’s no engine that is required to force the hot fluid that’s actually a gas from the heat source to the engine. There’s nothing required in that heat pipe—it’s a self-contained device that has no moving parts. It’s extremely efficient, and is then a candidate for insertion in the system to transfer the heat without requiring moving parts. Not having moving parts is very beneficial because moving parts fail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although missions get changed, there still is a desire for power to explore in space, isn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.171996941792623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I figured I’m possibly performing a service because this could be used again. They’re still working on space power and the code that I wrote is useful to people. I want to make sure that it’s republished in the modern form, and the same time, NASA can say that they’re friendly to senior citizens—which I don’t really consider myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think so. Maybe in about 30 years, but I think you’re still going. You’re talking about it, to make it more efficient, in the heat transfer and the heat pumps: I know you want to update your code, but when you get your code updated, how does it impact space power? How’s it going to help?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If they are going to transfer heat from, say, a little nuclear reactor or nuclear heat source to a little engine that’s going to produce the power, you have to have a mechanism of efficient transfer of heat. A heat pipe is the most efficient transfer of heat that exists because for one thing, it has no moving parts. There’s no engine that is required to force the hot fluid that’s actually a gas from the heat source to the engine. There’s nothing required in that heat pipe—it’s a self-contained device that has no moving parts. It’s extremely efficient, and is then a candidate for insertion in the system to transfer the heat without requiring moving parts. Not having moving parts is very beneficial because moving parts fail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although missions get changed, there still is a desire for power to explore in space, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some examples of some of the other work that you’ve done, and how it’s been used by NACA or NASA or industry? We know that industry looks to NASA, and for years, looked to the NACA for research information that they could apply for development."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.85777437976958, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If they are going to transfer heat from, say, a little nuclear reactor or nuclear heat source to a little engine that’s going to produce the power, you have to have a mechanism of efficient transfer of heat. A heat pipe is the most efficient transfer of heat that exists because for one thing, it has no moving parts. There’s no engine that is required to force the hot fluid that’s actually a gas from the heat source to the engine. There’s nothing required in that heat pipe—it’s a self-contained device that has no moving parts. It’s extremely efficient, and is then a candidate for insertion in the system to transfer the heat without requiring moving parts. Not having moving parts is very beneficial because moving parts fail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although missions get changed, there still is a desire for power to explore in space, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some examples of some of the other work that you’ve done, and how it’s been used by NACA or NASA or industry? We know that industry looks to NASA, and for years, looked to the NACA for research information that they could apply for development."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How it’s used in industry? That’s kind of hard to say. What we do is published and what people do with it, I don’t know. I really don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, but it certainly is used to help base for what they have done. What are some of the other favorite things that you’ve worked on, other than this heat transfer?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.7308604219662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some examples of some of the other work that you’ve done, and how it’s been used by NACA or NASA or industry? We know that industry looks to NASA, and for years, looked to the NACA for research information that they could apply for development."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How it’s used in industry? That’s kind of hard to say. What we do is published and what people do with it, I don’t know. I really don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, but it certainly is used to help base for what they have done. What are some of the other favorite things that you’ve worked on, other than this heat transfer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going back—it’s too bad I don’t have this stack of all the papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your cheat notes, yes. I’d like to have seen those. You made a statement earlier about in the beginning, you were able to choose some of the areas that you wanted to research and analyze. At some point, it shifted, where now work was done for a greater mission. What kind of projects were you tapped at certain times? Did you work, for instance, on some of the space programs, or did you work on some things that were exploratory?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.812067135518, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How it’s used in industry? That’s kind of hard to say. What we do is published and what people do with it, I don’t know. I really don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, but it certainly is used to help base for what they have done. What are some of the other favorite things that you’ve worked on, other than this heat transfer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going back—it’s too bad I don’t have this stack of all the papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your cheat notes, yes. I’d like to have seen those. You made a statement earlier about in the beginning, you were able to choose some of the areas that you wanted to research and analyze. At some point, it shifted, where now work was done for a greater mission. What kind of projects were you tapped at certain times? Did you work, for instance, on some of the space programs, or did you work on some things that were exploratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of it was like exploratory. Probably the closest we got to really the large projects was when we were working on fuels for jet engines. We worked as a group, so there would be a group, somebody working on a certain kind of a fuel for a jet engine. I told you about the magnesium slurry business, and somebody was working on basically a metal hydride, I forget what they got, I don’t even recall what it was, working next door. I was doing a thermal chemistry for that project, too, doing computations for the combustion of the fuel that was being used in that project, again, to augment thrust for a jet engine. All that kind of work basically came to an end when jet engines got big enough and powerful enough, they didn’t need to be augmented anymore by special fuels. That kind of brought an end to that kind of a project. The group I worked with, another test was done here, again, putting a cloud over the airport where they burned the fuel. It was a metal hydride of some kind. I absolutely forget what it was, now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re just lucky you were on the good end of those experiments, weren’t you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.2387752201893, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I was doing the computations and analysis for some of that, the thermochemistry for some of that project, so those basically were aimed at the Air Force. A large sum of money was spent here on that project, and it was eventually terminated. That’s when we got into the work with space power. The boss that we had at that time, the branch chief, was always looking for something defensive, something that he could get his group working on. I’ve never been a leader—I’ve been a follower—but I’ve been a follower in that I went off in my directions, wherever possible, to supplement whatever was being done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were first in school, back in Antioch, what were you working toward? What did you want to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How I ended up at Antioch, I don’t know. My folks thought that’s where I should go. Initially, I wanted to be a railroad mechanical engineer, which is not taught at Antioch. I was accepted at Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana]; never went to Purdue. That’s where they were doing railroad mechanical engineering. I went to Antioch to be a mechanical engineer. They had a little engineering department there. I don’t know—you’ve never heard of Antioch?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard of it, yes, sir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just folded and it’s being reborn, now. The alumni are being actively solicited for money, and we may give them some, I don’t know. They closed and reorganized because it was badly managed, for a while. They had huge ambitions and wasted all their money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You stayed here quite a long time. You never had any thoughts about maybe taking your skills someplace else?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.15419468909922, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How I ended up at Antioch, I don’t know. My folks thought that’s where I should go. Initially, I wanted to be a railroad mechanical engineer, which is not taught at Antioch. I was accepted at Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana]; never went to Purdue. That’s where they were doing railroad mechanical engineering. I went to Antioch to be a mechanical engineer. They had a little engineering department there. I don’t know—you’ve never heard of Antioch?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard of it, yes, sir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just folded and it’s being reborn, now. The alumni are being actively solicited for money, and we may give them some, I don’t know. They closed and reorganized because it was badly managed, for a while. They had huge ambitions and wasted all their money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You stayed here quite a long time. You never had any thoughts about maybe taking your skills someplace else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had solicitations, yes, several times, but by that time, I’d been here quite a few years. I had roots in Cleveland. I married a woman. I was 43 when I got married the first time—not first time, it’s the only time, because I’m still married—and then I had kids. Then, when I had kids, when I retired from NASA, TRW solicited me to work in Redondo Beach, California. I thought, “Hey, of all the places I don’t want to go, that’s the worst place in the world to raise a kid.” We had kids that were then just early teens, and I thought, “No, no, no. California, no.” That was the end of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think is probably the most challenging time that you’ve had since you’ve been here at the lab or the Center? What has brought you challenges in getting your work done? What’s some of the most challenging work that you had?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:62", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.5565938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. When I was testing the magnesium slurry program, we had large equipment that had to be built, and they had the technical services people design the equipment that was required for that kind of a test. We were working with design engineers all the time, and other people in our group even got to the point where they built a rocket that was fired at Wallops Island, using fuel that our group developed. It was boron hydride. That was another fuel, boron hydrides were tested by our group, and I did some calculations on the boron hydride. I never ran those experiments myself.\\n\\n That was a really dangerous period of life right there, when we were handling those fuels, and we didn’t really know what we were doing. One day, in the test cells that we use for testing, it was testing boron hydride fuels. The guys were working in the test cell and had just set things up to do a test and had left the test chamber and gone to a control room where they were doing the test. I wasn’t there, thank God I wasn’t there. I came in the next morning and they’d had a huge explosion, and blew the roof off the building. A foot thick wall got cracked on account of this, so I mean, it was a dangerous period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it was.\n\nDefinitely. That’s interesting, because you were doing the testing and you didn’t know until you did the test, just how dangerous it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nowadays, those kinds of tests are impossible. People now are worrying about what in the old days we figured would have been just like nitpicking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, there’s standard operating procedure, now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s critical."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I appreciate it.\n\nWhen you look back over these 70 years, are there other areas that you would like to share with us, or some of the other accomplishments that you would like for us to know about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 5.062882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nowadays, those kinds of tests are impossible. People now are worrying about what in the old days we figured would have been just like nitpicking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, there’s standard operating procedure, now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s critical."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I appreciate it.\n\nWhen you look back over these 70 years, are there other areas that you would like to share with us, or some of the other accomplishments that you would like for us to know about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In broad terms, I covered pretty much everything. I diddled a little bit with physics. At one point, when we were working on thermionics, I did some analytical surface studies that were of no real consequence, except they were interesting to me. The physics of molecules on surfaces, I messed with that but really didn’t have the background to do it. It was interesting, and I thought, “Well, gee, sometime when I retire, I’d like to do that,” but no, by that time, I’m through.\\n\\n I wrote two or three papers that were published in the physics journals as letters to editors, and found errors that other people had done, or did the first computation on something or another—molecules on surfaces. This physics of molecules on surfaces, I did that as kind of a sideline. Without really enough background, it was correct, but not really earth-shaking in any sense, but just interesting to me, and tolerated at that time. I wouldn’t even start something like that today. You couldn’t start it—how would you justify starting it? We were working on engineering studies involving that kind of stuff, so I thought, “Well, this is interesting, I’ll do this on the side,” and did it on the side."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you get through with your updating code for your heat transfer, what’s your next project?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:72", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4580000000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Next project, I will probably start staying home, because I have deferred stuff at home for a long time. I will have been retired now, as long as I worked, I worked 35 years, when you figure it out, and 35 more years is 70. Except that I did work for Sverdrup Engineering for eight years. That, this is not now involving NACA, but that was the smartest thing I ever did because I met people that I still know, and that I’m still friends with, and that I’m still working with, that I met then when I was a contractor. Actually, that’s why I got started with my code."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you were fortunate to have a little bit of all the things that you were interested in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve had a huge variety of experiences, huge variety."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you for sharing them with us this morning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing real important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s all just a smaller piece of a bigger puzzle that all came together, so we appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:74", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve had a huge variety of experiences, huge variety."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you for sharing them with us this morning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing real important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s all just a smaller piece of a bigger puzzle that all came together, so we appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA, I feel one thing that keeps me here is that when I started out, I started at such a low level and I was tolerated as an SP-5 at a very low level. I feel, somehow, I owe something back. Now, I’m stuck giving back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you’ve given a lot, and just the insight of all that you’ve seen has to help all of those who haven’t come yet to see anything."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:76", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing real important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s all just a smaller piece of a bigger puzzle that all came together, so we appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA, I feel one thing that keeps me here is that when I started out, I started at such a low level and I was tolerated as an SP-5 at a very low level. I feel, somehow, I owe something back. Now, I’m stuck giving back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you’ve given a lot, and just the insight of all that you’ve seen has to help all of those who haven’t come yet to see anything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s been an interesting place and there are interesting people here, and my best friends are here, still. I, frankly, don’t like being around people my age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Old people? Yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:78", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA, I feel one thing that keeps me here is that when I started out, I started at such a low level and I was tolerated as an SP-5 at a very low level. I feel, somehow, I owe something back. Now, I’m stuck giving back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you’ve given a lot, and just the insight of all that you’ve seen has to help all of those who haven’t come yet to see anything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s been an interesting place and there are interesting people here, and my best friends are here, still. I, frankly, don’t like being around people my age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Old people? Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re boring. All they do is talk about their aches. It’s unfortunate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s so fortunate for those that are younger that are able to tap into your brain on what’s worked and what hasn’t worked because analyzing is analyzing. It’s not just computer."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00968:80", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s been an interesting place and there are interesting people here, and my best friends are here, still. I, frankly, don’t like being around people my age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Old people? Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re boring. All they do is talk about their aches. It’s unfortunate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s so fortunate for those that are younger that are able to tap into your brain on what’s worked and what hasn’t worked because analyzing is analyzing. It’s not just computer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some do. There’s a young girl here—she’s not young anymore; I mean young to me—she’s 40, to me, my kids are 45. She has been using my inputs. I think basically what I am now is a senior mascot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A go-to guy. “I’ll go to him and ask him what he thinks,” see? You’re still analyzing for them, so that’s the good news. Thank you so much for making the travels over here and spending some time with us this morning."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.327007958113093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wind tunnels tend to be better characterized. The flow tends to be more uniform. There’s a lot of systems that have been set up over the decades that people have been using wind tunnels to actually understand the flow field which you’re exposing your test article to. Not so much with an Arc Jet, and, of course, the energy levels are so much higher. Wind tunnels, some are subsonic, some of them are supersonic, some of them are hypersonic, but you go to an Arc Jet and you’re talking megawatts of power. The power level is much, much higher, and the flow fields are not well characterized. You’re not quite sure what you’re exposing your test article to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s quite a change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s a big change. The other part of it, too, is that your options for determining or characterizing that flow field are much reduced, just because of the survivability. You cannot stick everything in the flow field and expect it to survive; it won’t. There’s many a time when we stuck probes in, and there was not adequate cooling water or somebody forgot to turn the cooling water on. Of course, then you lose the probe or whatever very quickly. Water leaks generate snow cones in the Arc Jet. There’s a vacuum chamber, so you dump a lot of water in there and generate snow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You generate snow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wouldn’t think that [was possible]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.03000884234788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s a big change. The other part of it, too, is that your options for determining or characterizing that flow field are much reduced, just because of the survivability. You cannot stick everything in the flow field and expect it to survive; it won’t. There’s many a time when we stuck probes in, and there was not adequate cooling water or somebody forgot to turn the cooling water on. Of course, then you lose the probe or whatever very quickly. Water leaks generate snow cones in the Arc Jet. There’s a vacuum chamber, so you dump a lot of water in there and generate snow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You generate snow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wouldn’t think that [was possible]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you can get a lot of it real quick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does it generate snow?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.03334315816431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wouldn’t think that [was possible]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you can get a lot of it real quick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does it generate snow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just because it’s a near-vacuum. We don’t get down to vacuum, but we get very low pressure in the test chamber, and then you dump water into that and it wants to expand very quickly and cool off the water. So it just freezes. You get little particles of ice everywhere, so it sort of looks like snow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting because, when I was listening to everyone [at the videotaping], I thought you went up to about 3,000 degrees."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.14815906462701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you can get a lot of it real quick."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does it generate snow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just because it’s a near-vacuum. We don’t get down to vacuum, but we get very low pressure in the test chamber, and then you dump water into that and it wants to expand very quickly and cool off the water. So it just freezes. You get little particles of ice everywhere, so it sort of looks like snow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting because, when I was listening to everyone [at the videotaping], I thought you went up to about 3,000 degrees."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, when the arc’s on, that’s correct. Of course, that’s only in the core of the flow field, and the 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, that’s not even real high temperatures for an Arc Jet. That’s actually surface temperatures. The flow field itself is much, much higher. Unfortunately, we always use inconsistent units, but we usually talk about 5-10,000 degrees Kelvin in the actual flow field itself, where the test articles are placed. We shy away from temperatures after a while because temperature is just a measure of your energy. It’s very confusing and not very accurate to talk about temperatures when you get to real high temperatures. The reason being is that a lot of chemistry goes on. Now, a lot of energy is tied up in the disassociation or even ionization of the gas, so it’s not real accurate to talk about temperatures. We shy away from temperatures, except for surface temperatures, of the test articles. There, yes, we still talk about it. Even that’s very difficult for test articles that ablate, that change state, but we still try to get a measure of the surface temperatures but it’s much more difficult."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any memorable tests when you were working with Carl Scott?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 35.972831158561426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not sure. I guess part of it’s because our plans for NASA going to Mars are not really very detailed or set in concrete, and so I guess maybe it was before its time. If we had been earnestly working towards a mission to Mars, people may have been more aware of this capability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any other technological developments that stand out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not the ones that I can say that really stand out. There’s all sorts of minor ones. The people at the JSC Arc Jet facility were very good about modifying the arc heaters, et cetera, to get them to generate environments that we were looking for, as test engineers. They really looked for flexibility in the hardware and trying to get the capability to change things quickly to produce the test environments we were looking for. Again, people wouldn’t say it ranks up there real high as a technological advance, but it was very important to us to be able to have that flexibility in the test hardware."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That building was open in ’67, and you start working out there around ’88. Have things changed over time? Do things look different since you started working out there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. While I’ve been involved in that Arc Jet, they actually did install a new test chamber. That was a big event. I think it was, I forgot, exactly, right around 1990. Right around there is when they installed a new test chamber. That gave us a lot of capability, to have that bigger chamber, so that made things look a little bit different. Then, the addition of the laser block house for the LIF system, the Laser-Induced Fluorescence System, that was added on. Over time, yes, things changed a little bit. The basic high bay there and, of course, the one test chamber was the same one that was there when I arrived."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s an interesting building, when you walk in and think it’s been there since ’67."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 47.51644605899068, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing was that first of all, we got what we called generic test articles built, and we had a cage where we kept all of those, and a lot of TPS supplies we kept. We had a lot of hardware that was actually dedicated to supporting flight. The other thing, of course, right before flight, we would make sure that everything was operating fine in the Arc Jet. We wouldn’t suspend testing; we would just not do any risky testing because we didn’t want to damage the facility. Then, of course, put people on standby to say, “Hey, you could get called in,” and that was engineers and technicians. Of course we did several times, and usually people were put on around the clock, 12-hour shifts, so we had crews supporting the Arc Jet. If there was an inkling that something was going wrong, then we’d start manning the Arc Jet facility, just getting preparations.\\n\\n There’s a few times, I don’t remember the specifics, where we would actually get some test articles ready, put them in, install them, and get ready to do calibrations. That’s always the first thing you do in an Arc Jet test is do a calibration to get the test conditions you’re looking for, before you actually expose the real test article. We would do that. We would get the technicians, et cetera, ready to go; we’d get the test articles ready to go. Sometimes install the calibration models in the facility, and maybe do a couple of runs to support a flight, just to make sure that we were ready to go if needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This continued all the way to end, through [STS]-135?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, yes, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you report—you did a test and here is your findings—did you go to the Mission Management Team [MMT]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I mentioned earlier, the Damage Assessment Team, the DAT team; all the Arc Jet testing was coordinated through the DAT team. The results of the Arc Jet test, then, would be included in the Damage Assessment Team report and reported out to the MMT."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have to go to any meetings?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 50.57382895443409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, yes, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you report—you did a test and here is your findings—did you go to the Mission Management Team [MMT]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I mentioned earlier, the Damage Assessment Team, the DAT team; all the Arc Jet testing was coordinated through the DAT team. The results of the Arc Jet test, then, would be included in the Damage Assessment Team report and reported out to the MMT."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have to go to any meetings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to go quite often. The way we’re operating there, Boeing was actually the lead from engineering for the thermal protection system. The subsystem manager at Boeing was essentially the head of the DAT team. He was the person that usually did the briefings to the MMT. So it was usually a Boeing person or a USA person, and usually, we were there as backup, the NASA folks. There was a couple of times that myself and others had to go in there and just support them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any memorable discussions that you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 56.19314328270455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I mentioned earlier, the Damage Assessment Team, the DAT team; all the Arc Jet testing was coordinated through the DAT team. The results of the Arc Jet test, then, would be included in the Damage Assessment Team report and reported out to the MMT."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever have to go to any meetings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to go quite often. The way we’re operating there, Boeing was actually the lead from engineering for the thermal protection system. The subsystem manager at Boeing was essentially the head of the DAT team. He was the person that usually did the briefings to the MMT. So it was usually a Boeing person or a USA person, and usually, we were there as backup, the NASA folks. There was a couple of times that myself and others had to go in there and just support them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any memorable discussions that you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them you probably don’t want to admit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t want to put those on the recording?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00049:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 60.21460364744949, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to go quite often. The way we’re operating there, Boeing was actually the lead from engineering for the thermal protection system. The subsystem manager at Boeing was essentially the head of the DAT team. He was the person that usually did the briefings to the MMT. So it was usually a Boeing person or a USA person, and usually, we were there as backup, the NASA folks. There was a couple of times that myself and others had to go in there and just support them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any memorable discussions that you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them you probably don’t want to admit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t want to put those on the recording?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somebody could do some sociological study of it. Groups of people can work very effectively together, but sometimes they joke around. People on the outside, if they heard that, they’d think that’s not appropriate. It’s just the way people work together, and it didn’t degrade or deter from their capabilities. We would try to get people to say certain phrases, even during an MMT, just joking around. It’s not a matter of disrespect, it was just the way people handle crises sometimes. We did that also; we would go in there and joke around, and just the way some people handle stress and crises.\\n\\n We had a good team. We had lots of food in our DAT room, [which was] very close to Mission Evaluation, the MER. We were always notorious for having lots of food there, and the big bosses, [N.] Wayne Hale and Bill [William H.] Gerstenmaier would come by and eat some of our food. We’d talk to them, and they probably also wanted to come and find out what was going on. That was really, I think, good and exciting times. It was a good team of folks; they all did their job very well, even though we joked around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had mentioned you worked on the X-38. Were you doing testing out at the Arc Jet for that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00854:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 30, "return_to_go": 152.30774047439326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Actually, they were still there at the time because the Space Task Group was on the other side of Langley and to tell you the truth, I don’t know I thought about it one way or the other, to be absolutely honest about it. The Space Task Group had been set up, and when I was there, the original seven astronauts were at Langley. It was an exciting time, with a lot going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know you were busy working on other projects as well. I think the Lunar Orbiter Project you started in the mid ’60s?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, after Vector, I went to work on the Lunar Orbiter, which was an interesting experience also for a young engineer—and I really was young, at the time. Actually, the guy who had been the section head where the Vector Project was had gone over to Lunar Orbiter, and he asked me to come over. I remember thinking about it and trying to figure out what are the pros and the cons of doing it? I met with my branch head. I still remember what he said. He said, “If you’re good here, you’ll probably be good there, and if you’re not good here, you probably won’t be good there.” I’ve never quite figured out where that fit in, but it must have been profound enough!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It stayed with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sat down with a piece of paper and I said, “Okay, what are the pros and what are the cons?” I wasn’t very good at that because my thoughts were, “Good gracious, that’s a big space project. I mean, somebody could really fail there.” I really concluded, you will never be satisfied if you didn’t try it, so I went to work on Lunar Orbiter, which was a fantastic experience. I had an enormous amount of interaction with JSC at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got pretty much a responsible role. Didn’t you start to define that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00854:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 83.956727868553, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do, actually. We had some programs that were in serious trouble, Landsat being one I remember. Again, from the learning experience standpoint, there’s a guy there named John [H.] Boeckel. John was head of Engineering at the time, but he really was looked at as the best technical person at Goddard. I remember on Landsat, we were having meetings all the time, trying to solve the Landsat problems. I remember John saying, “If you function tomorrow the same way you function today, you probably should expect about the same result.” He said, “If we’re going to solve the trouble, we’ve got to do something different.”\\n\\n They were just good people at Goddard, and I think the thing that I probably brought—and I don’t want to get carried away with this—was that I identified very much with the kind of work they were trying to do. I really was quite supportive of what they were doing, and I think that we went about correcting a lot of the project kinds of problems that existed. It was one of my personal better experiences. My best experience, there’s nothing that beats being a project manager. I knew when I finished Viking that I would never do anything like that again in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Never have that same feeling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, never have that same feeling. I remember, I’m really deviating, John Naugle, one time, he was now the number three guy at NASA, whatever he was called at the time, and John said, “You have had the opportunity to have the thrill of being on the project, and the rest of your life, your job is to create that opportunity for other people.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good legacy to leave, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is, yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where we are is basically closing up your years at NASA, and those 21 years you were there were pretty full."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00854:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there will be a new one coming in. Then, they do have the MARS activity, as you said, and they put together a new board and I’m on that. I have a little background with that. It’s interesting, when I was in Florida, the governor at that time—this was mid to late ’80s—became interested in how space could be a larger part of the Florida economy, even though it was booming at that time. I chaired a review for the governor. My co-chair was Jeb [John Ellis] Bush, so Jeb Bush and I spent a year working together, doing it. We recommended, which is now the competitor, that Florida have a space port."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It all comes back to haunt you, doesn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and put it together, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wallops became part of Goddard when you were there in that time brief time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must just be in your stars, that’s what happened."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00854:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and put it together, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wallops became part of Goddard when you were there in that time brief time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must just be in your stars, that’s what happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was interesting. There was a lot of pressure on NASA at the time, they had too many Centers, so they got rid of two Centers by making Wallops part of Goddard and [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California] part of Ames. I don’t know whether that did anything or not, but I know that the Director of Wallops didn’t think that was a very good idea. I’ve seen a lot in the process, and it’s been an exciting time. It can be a great time in the future, if we’re up to it. The country right now, in many ways, we’re trying to find our way on some of this new stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No easy path, is there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 85.72009580770444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember we pulled the LCVGs out of the locker. I recall Dave standing on my left. I’m standing here. We’re just facing the lockers. There just suddenly is this notable pause and notable silence. I have this fleeting sense that everyone has just realized that we’re about to go boldly where no man has gone before—there’s a woman in this mix. You have this sense that every trainer there is going, “Okay, so I always knew how this worked when it was just guys in the locker room and they peel down to their skivvies and on we go. What happens now that she’s here?” Blank. No idea. So I looked over at Dave and said, “Dave, let me tell you my philosophy about modesty in circumstances like this.” He shifts a bit and says, “Okay.” I said, “I have none.” He said, “Fine.” We start peeling off clothes. The trainers dove out of the mockup head first. We got in the LCVGs and said, “You can come back in now.” That was just how we seemed to do things on our crews. “Good. Right. Never mind. Let’s go!”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably worked out better."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This mission was using a new system of brakes. There seemed to be an almost longer landing pattern. Any recollections in terms of landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nothing stands out. Other than you remind me of the other bookend that I chuckled about with STS-125, because STS-31 launched from Florida of course, and had a weather wave-off and landed in California. I don’t think we got an extension day. I think it was just a couple of revs’ wave-off, and we landed out there. So I thought it was intriguing that the very first Shuttle flight and the very final Shuttle flight to Hubble both waved off for weather and then ended up in California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any major differences you noticed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 62.37261325364234, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "End of SEPAC! They got like two or three doses off. We all each managed to see at least one. We joked around a lot, and I still joke sometimes, that I’m sure we are the only Space Shuttle crew to ever fire photon torpedoes, because that’s what this was. It was like firing photon torpedoes down towards the atmosphere. Then it died, and we were distraught."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How disappointing!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was terrible. It was terrible. We told them it was the wrong fuse. Our photon torpedoes were much better than George Lucas’s photon torpedoes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This as I understand it, was the first Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first Spacelab Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it was the first Spacelab Mission to Planet Earth."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 62.636236948491494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was terrible. It was terrible. We told them it was the wrong fuse. Our photon torpedoes were much better than George Lucas’s photon torpedoes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This as I understand it, was the first Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first Spacelab Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it was the first Spacelab Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the whole Mission to Planet Earth Program thrust had already come out. It was somewhat teed up by the Paine Commission report, really crystallized and taken by the agency I think first in Sally’s report, the Ride Report, in the rather early days after the Challenger accident. Remember, this mission actually had been planned and committed as a reflight back in 1983. This was not a mission originally conceived of as a Mission to Planet Earth, but the nature of its scientific work really genuinely did align with the purposes of that new program, which was gaining momentum and clarity. That was appropriate, but it was a late addition of a moniker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your crew, as you pointed out, was broken up into two shifts. Was there any competition between the two teams?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 69.59581883165721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first Spacelab Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, it was the first Spacelab Mission to Planet Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the whole Mission to Planet Earth Program thrust had already come out. It was somewhat teed up by the Paine Commission report, really crystallized and taken by the agency I think first in Sally’s report, the Ride Report, in the rather early days after the Challenger accident. Remember, this mission actually had been planned and committed as a reflight back in 1983. This was not a mission originally conceived of as a Mission to Planet Earth, but the nature of its scientific work really genuinely did align with the purposes of that new program, which was gaining momentum and clarity. That was appropriate, but it was a late addition of a moniker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your crew, as you pointed out, was broken up into two shifts. Was there any competition between the two teams?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, there really wasn’t. Not really. None of us were really of that sort of personality, “Got to prove to the other guy.” I was just looking around to see if I had any of those reprints. Charlie didn’t ever really use a device like that to drive performance. Commitment to each other, commitment to the mission, the intrinsic factors that he exemplified and reinforced. You want to do right by the mission. You want to do right by the opportunity you’ve been given. You want to certainly do right by, live up to, and deliver on the expectations of a leader like Charlie. He wouldn’t have needed to set up some fake game for me to make me do anything better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things Charlie pointed out in regards to this mission that he did that was unusual, I think, was that he had the crew participate in some sort of Myers-Briggs or personality type testing. Did you find that helpful?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 81.54447334480413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we needed one. Yes, and I also remember Dave and Duffy doing a golf tournament. Balling up a sock, and tying it up with gray tape—they’re both avid golfers—taking the inspection mirror out, and Dave did a little chip shot across from one side of the middeck to the other. Then he tried to get clever and calculate how many seconds. They made the cup. They took a roll of gray tape and put it on the galley wall with a pencil sticking out of it, as if that was the hole and the greens flag. So just monkeying around and having a bit of a good time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Charlie told us that he agreed to have the crew taken off on gurneys. Do you recall this? Were you one of the participants?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn’t taken off on a gurney."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No? Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Walked into the crew transfer van and sat on the brown Barcaloungers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had mentioned that there was some study. Somebody wanted to study the impact of zero G on the human body, and that it would be better if people came off in gurneys rather than experiencing too much gravity."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 64.89688947746376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s fun stuff. They’re neat. The events are sometimes very fun. Like I said, oftentimes they really introduce you to someone who comes to matter to you or teach you something really neat in the long run. That’s the real benefit out of it. Bullets on resumes are okay. So what?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you donated any items that they’ve used in any of the museums for any of the hall of fames?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Astronaut Hall of Fame is the one that had requested things. I haven’t. It’s partly just not having gotten around to it. I did a pass through some of the stuff I have. A) I am not a great packrat, so I’m just not the person that’s going to have every little thing I put my fingers on while I was getting ready for 41G. Of course early Shuttle is a different era than Mercury or Gemini, the range of things that we as crew members were allowed to take with us as personal mementos is way smaller. John [H.] Glenn’s hand controller, the rotational hand controller from the Friendship 7 capsule, is above us here in this building. It’s a one-time-use capsule. It’s unequivocally his. When he says, “I had to steer this thing, I’d like that hand controller,” they carved it off and they gave it to him. You try to take one of the hand controllers out of the Space Shuttle sometime, you’re not going to get the same reaction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe when it’s retired."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe when it’s retired. I think there might be a fight for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that something that COSI is considering once the Shuttle retires, putting in for one of the retired Orbiters?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.932000000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lingerie?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously you wore the polos."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the outerwear standard stuff. I’m just trying to remember if this was the way it was the first time Sally flew; I think it headed down a different path and then got adjusted. Maybe informed by their success with tampons—bra and underwear things, it’s just different. People have certain preferences, styles, and comforts. Even when there’s six of us, much less when there’s going to be more than six, it’s silly to go make a standardized decision for women’s lingerie.\\n\\n I think the program started first to go down the, “We will order—like we do for the guys—briefs or boxers. What more is there, we’ll order this or that, you guys pick.” This is really a bad idea. So what came back around by the time I flew was a set of specs [specifications], restrictions, on basically the kinds of fabric and designs that were acceptable from flammability and other point of view. Then it became, “You go buy what you want, charge it back, and it will be yours, what you want, your fit. Then we’ll stow it, as long as it’s cotton and this and that. Just stay in those bounds, go get what you want.” Fine. We’ll do that. That sounds a whole lot better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Much better than a NASA engineer or tech coming up with their own design."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Oh, it’s a frightening thought."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That could be something you could put on eBay. Looking back over your class, you just had your reunion here, what do you think are some of its accomplishments?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00540:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 25.48, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the outerwear standard stuff. I’m just trying to remember if this was the way it was the first time Sally flew; I think it headed down a different path and then got adjusted. Maybe informed by their success with tampons—bra and underwear things, it’s just different. People have certain preferences, styles, and comforts. Even when there’s six of us, much less when there’s going to be more than six, it’s silly to go make a standardized decision for women’s lingerie.\\n\\n I think the program started first to go down the, “We will order—like we do for the guys—briefs or boxers. What more is there, we’ll order this or that, you guys pick.” This is really a bad idea. So what came back around by the time I flew was a set of specs [specifications], restrictions, on basically the kinds of fabric and designs that were acceptable from flammability and other point of view. Then it became, “You go buy what you want, charge it back, and it will be yours, what you want, your fit. Then we’ll stow it, as long as it’s cotton and this and that. Just stay in those bounds, go get what you want.” Fine. We’ll do that. That sounds a whole lot better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Much better than a NASA engineer or tech coming up with their own design."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Oh, it’s a frightening thought."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That could be something you could put on eBay. Looking back over your class, you just had your reunion here, what do you think are some of its accomplishments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wow. [Daniel C.] Brandenstein and company actually pulled some of that together. Shame on them. They haven’t gotten a summary of it all back out to us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’d be nice to have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00677:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.732346413814344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we always wanted to maintain competition, so that was kind of a driving principle in the whole project. There wasn’t that much entertaining of giving it all to one participant. I’m trying to remember what the rational was for opening the competition up again. Probably because the scope had changed, and the dollars and the schedule were tighter. It seemed like they were going to need to get some updated proposals anyway, so in general it was just easier to open it up to a full and open [competition]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From what I understand, SpaceX did compete in that second round, but they weren’t awarded any additional funds. Were you aware of that at all, or have any involvement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was busy managing the current contract and all the other unfunded partners that we had. I was busy doing the work while they were off in the bunker on that second round, holding down the fort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you not have any involvement in the CCDev [Commercial Crew Development] competition, either?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We heard from legal that as both the COTS office and the commercial partners learned more about the Space Act Agreements and how to use them, the proposal process evolved a little bit. I didn’t know if you had heard any of that from your perspective?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00677:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 26.36927379312705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was busy managing the current contract and all the other unfunded partners that we had. I was busy doing the work while they were off in the bunker on that second round, holding down the fort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you not have any involvement in the CCDev [Commercial Crew Development] competition, either?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We heard from legal that as both the COTS office and the commercial partners learned more about the Space Act Agreements and how to use them, the proposal process evolved a little bit. I didn’t know if you had heard any of that from your perspective?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then later on, the budget for COTS was augmented with an additional [Congressional] appropriation. Did you have any role in allocating those funds, or helping define the milestones that were updated? I think it was $128 million extra for each partner."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00677:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.407701727594116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the biggest drawback was late in the development we found out that they had a weight problem, and it resulted in lack of total performance of cargo to Space Station. They’re mitigating that by upgrading the rocket. They’ve had plans to do an upgrade to the rocket anyway, and once they’ve come up with the Falcon 9 1.1, supposedly all our major mass constraints are going to go away.\\n\\n There’s some disadvantages. If you’re continually evolving the design, it’s a real good way to go. If you’ve got one shot at it, then you tend more toward the traditional NASA method of doing a lot more analysis up front, and making sure you’ve optimized early."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you also involved with the development of the 1.1?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what I’m out here watching now, the development of the 1.1. And there’s some big upgrades to the capsule itself that are being done to accommodate more payloads. I’m primarily overseeing and providing insight back to the CRS [Commercial Resupply Services] office for those big changes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "SpaceX is a very well-publicized company. They get a lot of media attention, and you also did some interviews with the media. Can you talk about that experience, because I don’t imagine you were trained for that as a NASA engineer. Especially when the second demonstration flight was flying [C2+], there was a lot more focus in the public eye."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first one or two on camera got me a little bit nervous, but our PAO [Public Affairs Office] folks coached me through what to typically do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the NASA PAO or from SpaceX?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00677:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.119668586215685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what I’m out here watching now, the development of the 1.1. And there’s some big upgrades to the capsule itself that are being done to accommodate more payloads. I’m primarily overseeing and providing insight back to the CRS [Commercial Resupply Services] office for those big changes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "SpaceX is a very well-publicized company. They get a lot of media attention, and you also did some interviews with the media. Can you talk about that experience, because I don’t imagine you were trained for that as a NASA engineer. Especially when the second demonstration flight was flying [C2+], there was a lot more focus in the public eye."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first one or two on camera got me a little bit nervous, but our PAO [Public Affairs Office] folks coached me through what to typically do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the NASA PAO or from SpaceX?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "NASA PAO. All the interviews were set up through NASA PAO. I think they did a really good job giving me an idea of what I should talk about, what I shouldn’t talk about, plus I had a lot of coaching from Alan [J. Lindenmoyer, Commercial Crew and Cargo Program Manager] on where political hot points might be. NASA PAO also did a good job of not putting me in front of an antagonistic press audience that was going to ask a bunch of not-so-fun questions. They did a good job, I think. Overall I thought it was great experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the first CRS flight, after they had demonstrated their capabilities under COTS, there was the engine failure. Was that a concern for you, or do you see that more as just a part of the development process for rockets?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00677:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.7711198940129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Determining the manifest I don’t do. That’s all done back in the Space Station Program Office. It’s driven by science priorities, and other Station resupply priorities. I am helping with some of the additional accommodations to be able to accommodate live animals, because it’s a change to the module design, new development work. They’re using some of my experience being able to develop projects to help with that activity, and adding it into the vehicle design."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s got to be fun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s nice working with the [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] folks again, too. I originally started with NASA up at Ames Research Center, working with some of their live animal programs, and I’m getting connected back with a bunch of folks that I used to work with 15, 20 years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They have lots of expertise in that field"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was something that you mentioned at the beginning of your first interview, looking at ways to get science samples back [from ISS]. Is that becoming more of a reality, that you can actually conduct those experiments, thanks to the COTS program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00677:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 15.301244326681001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s nice working with the [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] folks again, too. I originally started with NASA up at Ames Research Center, working with some of their live animal programs, and I’m getting connected back with a bunch of folks that I used to work with 15, 20 years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They have lots of expertise in that field"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was something that you mentioned at the beginning of your first interview, looking at ways to get science samples back [from ISS]. Is that becoming more of a reality, that you can actually conduct those experiments, thanks to the COTS program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. There was a gigantic program originally out of Ames to build a two-and-a-half meter centrifuge that I’d worked on, and a life sciences glove box, and animal and plant habitats. A lot of that got shut down because the [Space] Shuttle was being retired, and there was no way to be able to bring up all the supplies and the live specimens and bring them back down again. The Russian vehicles wouldn’t accommodate it, and there was no other return vehicles. Logistically, you just couldn’t support that big program.\\n\\n Now that we have SpaceX, there’s a capability to do at least a limited amount of that work again, be able to bring them up, and sometime in the future maybe to bring them back down again. It opens up that whole field of science again that had been kind of in hibernation for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What other types of roles do you see opening up for commercial flight as a result of this effort, since that was one of the goals of COTS to open more commercial markets?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00187:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 37.127160889946204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was. It’s funny, because my mother said, “Well, you always said you were going to work for NASA.” I said, “Yes, but I’m working at Ford.” She said, “Well, you got the NASA fellowship.” I said, “Yes, that’s true.” So I thought I was resigned. Okay, I had the NASA fellowship. Dr. Chopra was very critical in getting that. I had a project that I was working on and he thought that one of the research scientists out at Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] would be interested and would sponsor me for the fellowship. His name was Khanh Nguyen. He was out at NASA Ames for a long time. I think he subsequently left, but it was because of him and working with Dr. Chopra. They supported me for three years on that fellowship. It was very nice because they sponsored travel out to NASA Ames, and I could present my project and talk to Khanh and get advice. It was a very good three years. I think it was at the tail end of the PhD phase of me being at University of Maryland."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get a chance to work at Ames as a fellow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The NASA fellowship is a GSRP. Graduate Student Research Program I think is what it was called. You would get a NASA fellowship through the program. So I never got a chance to work out at NASA Ames. I worked with one of the research scientists, but never out there. Instead of going to a NASA Center after graduate school I ended up going out to Ford. Dr. Chopra, I don’t know if he was happy about that, but it was a good thing to do, [in] hindsight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’m sure he’s pretty proud of you now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s a good way to pay back a great adviser, is to do well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me how you found out that NASA was selecting a new group of astronauts in 2009."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00187:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. It is. So it’s another level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any challenges that you think you’ve encountered since you’ve come to work for the agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Challenges as far as personal?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Personal challenges or work on the program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting, because I think for me the biggest challenge was that when I came here my mother had passed away. I think the start of everything was so difficult because of that. So having to go through that and work through it for so many months it seems. It’s a challenge trying to get your work done and not focus on that. I think things may have started out a little interesting, but time heals all wounds. As time goes by you come back to your normal self and you start doing things as you normally would. So things become normal, which is nice. So I think that was probably, for me, that was the biggest challenge I think I’ve had since being selected. I thought it would be oh, it’s just a couple months, I’ll be back to normal. It takes a little longer than just a couple months. Realizing that is half the battle. Everything’s normal now. You know what I mean? I don’t know if that makes sense. But things begin to normalize and you feel like yourself and you can do things as you normally would. So it’s worked out pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like family is very important."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.918053101345116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's forget about chronology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had been there eight months, and hadn't had any accidents, and Jackie came home with that information. Are you familiar with the story of how long she tried to get the Army Air Corps to consider it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was General [Henry H. \"Hap\"] Arnold who suggested she try England to prove that American women could indeed handle military aircraft. So she went home with our record and got things going, and there was controversy whether or not the group—you probably know about that. But those of us who stayed felt really important. It's hard to explain in the year 2000 how wonderful it was to be considered valuable and useful for things other than housewifery and motherhood.\\n\\n Things just come back to me piecemeal. Anyone in uniform was treated with the greatest deference. At one time we had a rush order to get aircraft to Scotland and for, oh, it seemed forever, but probably only a couple of weeks, we'd taken aircraft up, come back on the night train, and we could usually sleep in the baggage car, but not always. People would move over and sit in the aisles so we could lie down. One time I slept in the aisle with my head on my parachute. When I woke up there was a blanket over me, which was very nice.\\n\\n Now, before I went off on that tangent, where were we? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, part of we were talking about was the planes that you were flying, and had asked you if you felt like you were in danger with those flights. How long were your flights when you would take—were you gone for days or weeks?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.87935953545283, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. They were pretty short. We were sometimes gone for days because of the weather, but the flights themselves, I had a lot of twenty-minute flights. England is a fairly small island, England and Scotland. We had, I think, only two pools in Scotland, one at Prestwick and one at Lauseymouth [phonetic] on the very northern rim of Scotland. It was rare that they had good weather. We flew with a difficult ceiling. Can't remember, it was certainly under 1,500 feet, which isn't much in bad weather. But that was so we would not interfere with operations. We also flew without radio contact of any sort for the same reasons, so we wouldn't interfere with combat operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you solo when you flew, or were you flying with others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, always solo. In the larger aircraft, now, a lot of these were—think of the year, in the early forties, they were pretty antiquated early aircraft. When you needed more than one pair of hands to fly it, an air cadet, these were schoolboys about fifteen, who came to fly with us. If you were flying up here, the crank to do the landing gear down was in the back, you had a cadet with you. But usually it was alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were fifteen. What age were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was twenty-four."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In a new country, doing a new job, it's quite an adventure."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.42151059494759, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, always solo. In the larger aircraft, now, a lot of these were—think of the year, in the early forties, they were pretty antiquated early aircraft. When you needed more than one pair of hands to fly it, an air cadet, these were schoolboys about fifteen, who came to fly with us. If you were flying up here, the crank to do the landing gear down was in the back, you had a cadet with you. But usually it was alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were fifteen. What age were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was twenty-four."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In a new country, doing a new job, it's quite an adventure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a great adventure. I was homesick at first. See, I'd learned to fly in the big broad open spaces of California. England was not only a repetitive-looking country, but there was nothing except the railroad tracks to identify, really, and, of course, mountains, but the midlands in southern England. You could usually tell where you were by the coastline. But many of us, maybe not, well, many won't admit to being lost, but I was lost several times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your first stay there, they fitted you for uniforms. What other benefits did you get from this job, other than your uniforms? Were you paid much of a salary?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 28.2461228832751, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was twenty-four."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In a new country, doing a new job, it's quite an adventure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a great adventure. I was homesick at first. See, I'd learned to fly in the big broad open spaces of California. England was not only a repetitive-looking country, but there was nothing except the railroad tracks to identify, really, and, of course, mountains, but the midlands in southern England. You could usually tell where you were by the coastline. But many of us, maybe not, well, many won't admit to being lost, but I was lost several times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your first stay there, they fitted you for uniforms. What other benefits did you get from this job, other than your uniforms? Were you paid much of a salary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It seems to me it was three hundred a month. I can get you the exact figures, because I have them in my memento box at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you stay? Did you have quarters that were assigned for the twenty-five of you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 25.242127016389013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It seems to me it was three hundred a month. I can get you the exact figures, because I have them in my memento box at home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you stay? Did you have quarters that were assigned for the twenty-five of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. England was caught with its trousers down when the war started. We slept—all the civilians in England reported how many rooms they had in their house and how many people were living there. Anyone who had a spare room or two took a service person. I lived with a variety of families. The first one was very suspicious. They thought that the American girls were either gold-diggers or movie stars. [Laughter] We became very fond of each other, actually. But food was rationed and they did their best to feed us well.\\n\\n I left out a part of our training and a very vital part. After leaving Headquarters White Balsam, I went to Luton in Bedfordshire, where they made Churchill tanks. So if ever the weather was not bad, they lit smudge pot-type things to make fog, so the Germans wouldn't know where to bomb a tank factory. So our weather was consistently bad. You could fly, but it seemed impossible if you'd flown in clear weather. But you'd be surprised how soon you get used to flying in mist and haze.\\n\\n Each new person had to make twenty navigational flights in little open-cockpit aircraft. We were given a chit in the morning, which had four or five destinations. You were to find that and get a signature, go to the next one and come back. That was a real baptism of fire, I can tell you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your home base, was it still Bristol?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We were based in Luton, in Bedfordshire, which was, I suppose a training place for new pilots, because at that time ATA [Air Transport Auxiliary] was not training pilots. Later on it was. But we were all people who had flown before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your life was so busy at that time. Did they ever give you a day off?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.879169156035818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We were based in Luton, in Bedfordshire, which was, I suppose a training place for new pilots, because at that time ATA [Air Transport Auxiliary] was not training pilots. Later on it was. But we were all people who had flown before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your life was so busy at that time. Did they ever give you a day off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Our days off were staggered. They were never the same. But they were two days in succession every so many days. Most of us gravitated to London, to the American Red Cross Club after it opened, because it was possible to get a Coca-Cola and a hamburger there. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That helped to feel like home, I guess, to be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did. And a hot bath. Fuel was rationed, and always wherever you were billeted, which was the phrase covering wherever you were boarded with a civilian family, baths were once a week, and hot water came out of a little gas thing which was lit at the bottom, heated the water. Indoor temperatures were in the fifties. It was always cold.\\n\\n Emily and I, the gal from New York, both got chill blades, because you're eager to succeed, forget about wet feet and get cold. I'd never heard of chill blades, but your toes swell up. It's kind of a pre-frost bite. They split and it's hard to get over. But we learned to take care of our feet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you in England?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 27.134776735846685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did. And a hot bath. Fuel was rationed, and always wherever you were billeted, which was the phrase covering wherever you were boarded with a civilian family, baths were once a week, and hot water came out of a little gas thing which was lit at the bottom, heated the water. Indoor temperatures were in the fifties. It was always cold.\\n\\n Emily and I, the gal from New York, both got chill blades, because you're eager to succeed, forget about wet feet and get cold. I'd never heard of chill blades, but your toes swell up. It's kind of a pre-frost bite. They split and it's hard to get over. But we learned to take care of our feet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you in England?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eight years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I married an Englishman and my first two children were born there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you meet your husband?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.371974150940762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eight years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I married an Englishman and my first two children were born there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you meet your husband?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm a little ashamed to admit I was a pick-up. [Laughter] We were in Shepherds, which is a pub, but it's in Mayfair, a very high-class pub. I was with someone else who outranked my husband considerably. But I had \"U.S.A.\" on my shoulder. Peter simply came over and introduced himself and said he knew America well. I said, \"Fine.\" It turned out, I found out later, he had been a boy at camp in Upstate New York one season. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was he from originally?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.857749056600845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I married an Englishman and my first two children were born there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you meet your husband?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm a little ashamed to admit I was a pick-up. [Laughter] We were in Shepherds, which is a pub, but it's in Mayfair, a very high-class pub. I was with someone else who outranked my husband considerably. But I had \"U.S.A.\" on my shoulder. Peter simply came over and introduced himself and said he knew America well. I said, \"Fine.\" It turned out, I found out later, he had been a boy at camp in Upstate New York one season. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was he from originally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was English. He lived in London. He was in the British calvary and, of course, I was horse-happy, having ridden several different horses to school. And I fell for his spurs and his uniform."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us, you were married then in England."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 27.61972117400094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm a little ashamed to admit I was a pick-up. [Laughter] We were in Shepherds, which is a pub, but it's in Mayfair, a very high-class pub. I was with someone else who outranked my husband considerably. But I had \"U.S.A.\" on my shoulder. Peter simply came over and introduced himself and said he knew America well. I said, \"Fine.\" It turned out, I found out later, he had been a boy at camp in Upstate New York one season. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was he from originally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was English. He lived in London. He was in the British calvary and, of course, I was horse-happy, having ridden several different horses to school. And I fell for his spurs and his uniform."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us, you were married then in England."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You found time from your schedule and his schedule to have a ceremony. How did you do that and where was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.91080130444549, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was English. He lived in London. He was in the British calvary and, of course, I was horse-happy, having ridden several different horses to school. And I fell for his spurs and his uniform."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us, you were married then in England."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You found time from your schedule and his schedule to have a ceremony. How did you do that and where was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took a lot. It was in St. Barnabus Church in London, and it took a lot of arranging, but people from my pool and from his regiment were there. We had as much of a wedding as you could in those days. We were both in uniform, and I still have it. He's seventy-nine now and in foster care. He's in bad shape, having survived cancer. We talk every day. He's about ten minutes from me. I live in a retirement center in Portland [Oregon]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you were there for eight years, and were you flying the whole time that you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.45644589382832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You found time from your schedule and his schedule to have a ceremony. How did you do that and where was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took a lot. It was in St. Barnabus Church in London, and it took a lot of arranging, but people from my pool and from his regiment were there. We had as much of a wedding as you could in those days. We were both in uniform, and I still have it. He's seventy-nine now and in foster care. He's in bad shape, having survived cancer. We talk every day. He's about ten minutes from me. I live in a retirement center in Portland [Oregon]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you were there for eight years, and were you flying the whole time that you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you stop?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.284939882031466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took a lot. It was in St. Barnabus Church in London, and it took a lot of arranging, but people from my pool and from his regiment were there. We had as much of a wedding as you could in those days. We were both in uniform, and I still have it. He's seventy-nine now and in foster care. He's in bad shape, having survived cancer. We talk every day. He's about ten minutes from me. I live in a retirement center in Portland [Oregon]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you were there for eight years, and were you flying the whole time that you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you stop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I learned I was pregnant. It was not quite as possible to plan your family in those days. I didn't expect to be pregnant. Our first child is an M.D., and fifty-five. I think that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you miss flying the airplanes after?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 29.205488757812738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you stop?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I learned I was pregnant. It was not quite as possible to plan your family in those days. I didn't expect to be pregnant. Our first child is an M.D., and fifty-five. I think that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you miss flying the airplanes after?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, missed terribly. I did some volunteering with ATA. I missed it a lot.\\n\\n This marriage was complex, and we came back to America in 1949 and we eventually landed in a university town. I went back to graduate school to study psychology to find out whether my husband or I was the crazy one. [Laughter] Found out we both needed to be a little more tolerant.\\n\\n After I retired from that second career, I was a clinical psychologist, I worked in hospitals, not on the television."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's good. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.518806215230505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Do you know Arizona at all?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And camp. It was a wonderful interlude in my life. So I did fly again. Then at one point I realized I was very close to a power line that I knew was there, and Alair had an accident that she could have avoided. So we decided we'd quit, and my children gave me a bicycle. [Laughter]\\n\\n We've kind of got off flying in England."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, but it's your career in aviation. I didn't expect an Ultralight, so that was a good adventure for you to share with us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was called the Quicksilver MX, one of the earliest Ultralights. The four of us looked at several kinds and decided the Quicksilver was maybe the best. We have lots of wonderful snapshots of those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, quite a difference from the time that you sat out in your fields and watched the geese fly by in formation. Here you were flying as close to a bird as you could."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.081399505000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, particularly from my mother. She feigned illness, she raved and ranted, but my father, who was my stepfather—mother was the disciplinarian, and Dad really recognized an individual. Mom kept trying to hammer out of solid granite a little lady, and it just wasn't my speed.\\n\\n Yes, people called me a damned fool. However, have I mentioned the farmer I flew for, Elmer von Gom, the Dutchman? My passage to Montreal was delayed, and I was out of money, and he, dear man, loaned me several hundred dollars. Wasn't that great?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I paid him back the moment I got a salary. But not everybody called you an idiot. Some people understood.\\n\\n The ATA—oh, I'm glad I remembered this—was made up from people from, I believe, the number is eighteen different nations. At my pool alone, which was an all-women's pool, there was an Australian, a girl from Chile, one from Argentina, a Dane, I think two Czechs, a Norwegian and, of course, English girls. But that in itself was—I was a little country bumpkin, you see, from the corner of the state of Washington. And it was a wonderful experience, particularly the English women, couple of whom were titled, some whom already had children at home, and they had been wealthy and learned to fly as a sport.\\n\\n There was no upstaging. My commanding officer, Margo Windengore [phonetic], was decorated, had a very distinguished brother. But we were just all gals together, all accents. One of our members, Gray Stevenson, from Oklahoma, had a drawl. It was a great group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time you were in England, and as you mentioned earlier, that Jackie Cochran came back, or came to America—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—after about eight months to tell the United States of what the wonderful job that you were doing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.645999450000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I paid him back the moment I got a salary. But not everybody called you an idiot. Some people understood.\\n\\n The ATA—oh, I'm glad I remembered this—was made up from people from, I believe, the number is eighteen different nations. At my pool alone, which was an all-women's pool, there was an Australian, a girl from Chile, one from Argentina, a Dane, I think two Czechs, a Norwegian and, of course, English girls. But that in itself was—I was a little country bumpkin, you see, from the corner of the state of Washington. And it was a wonderful experience, particularly the English women, couple of whom were titled, some whom already had children at home, and they had been wealthy and learned to fly as a sport.\\n\\n There was no upstaging. My commanding officer, Margo Windengore [phonetic], was decorated, had a very distinguished brother. But we were just all gals together, all accents. One of our members, Gray Stevenson, from Oklahoma, had a drawl. It was a great group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time you were in England, and as you mentioned earlier, that Jackie Cochran came back, or came to America—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—after about eight months to tell the United States of what the wonderful job that you were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to keep up with that news? Did you know that this is what she was trying to do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.051110500000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to the United States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—after about eight months to tell the United States of what the wonderful job that you were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to keep up with that news? Did you know that this is what she was trying to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew about it, and we eventually, I forget how many months later, had an invitation from her, anyone who had gone with her to England, was, without question, a member of the WASP, if we wanted to come back, and five did. Everyone finished their contract, which was eighteen months, so all of us had a minimum of a year and a half of service in England. I can't remember all five, but do you want names?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was your service? You said a minimum of eighteen months, but how long did you actually spend in the ATA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.612345000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to keep up with that news? Did you know that this is what she was trying to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew about it, and we eventually, I forget how many months later, had an invitation from her, anyone who had gone with her to England, was, without question, a member of the WASP, if we wanted to come back, and five did. Everyone finished their contract, which was eighteen months, so all of us had a minimum of a year and a half of service in England. I can't remember all five, but do you want names?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was your service? You said a minimum of eighteen months, but how long did you actually spend in the ATA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew eighteen months. I started a second contract and became pregnant. I did volunteering after that without pay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, your stay there caused you to be in England during the war."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 17.347050000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew about it, and we eventually, I forget how many months later, had an invitation from her, anyone who had gone with her to England, was, without question, a member of the WASP, if we wanted to come back, and five did. Everyone finished their contract, which was eighteen months, so all of us had a minimum of a year and a half of service in England. I can't remember all five, but do you want names?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was your service? You said a minimum of eighteen months, but how long did you actually spend in the ATA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew eighteen months. I started a second contract and became pregnant. I did volunteering after that without pay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, your stay there caused you to be in England during the war."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and your family endured those times, and so that must have been a bit harrowing for you there as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01001:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 10.5, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is our time up?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's close to being finished. I did want to ask you one question, though. When I was talking to Dawn Seymour and she suggested that I give you a call, her comment to me was, \"Without those girls with the ATA, the WASP wouldn't have been able to do what we were able to do.\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering if you could share with us your feelings about the fact that you were such a pioneer in this and how it affected the rest of the women in aviation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It just never occurred to me. The impetus was, and it's the reason pilots from all over the world were drawn to England, to help the Royal Air Force, who were such a gallant lot and took such a terrible beating. By the time I stopped flying, a lot of the pilots looked eighteen, really, so young. I don't know where they got their courage, but night after night they were up there.\\n\\n Quite honestly, it never entered my head. I think most of us were so busy and we felt so useful. We were frightened to death by the war. I'm kind of ashamed of my hateful feelings about the Germans. I got over them. My maternal grandfather was German. I'm darned if I know how to respond to your question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I will tell you that so much of what we've read does point to the fact of the courage of the ATA made it easier for pilots, for female pilots, all the way down the line to those are now in the astronaut program that you serve as a role model for them. I'm also curious, do you have a chance to visit with any of the other ATAs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00456:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 67.77634669707201, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m glad to be here. I’m essentially retired, so I don’t have much of a schedule anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t we begin by getting some background on you. Why don’t you tell us about your interest in aviation and aerospace when you were a child, how you developed that interest, maybe what sort of events or people sparked this interest."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it started—I guess actually it started when I was a child, but I don’t remember a point in time when I suddenly became interested in it. When I was a kid, I grew up in a very small town in Mississippi, and we didn’t have a big university or any high-tech industries or anything. We had a pretty good library, and I did a lot of reading when I was a kid. I read adventure stories. I also read science fiction, and I guess my first interest in space came through science fiction, some of which was absolutely fantasy-type stuff, and some of it was pretty realistic. I read some interpretations of some German science fiction, which was much more realistic than a lot of the other stuff.\\n\\n Also, I had a neighbor, his name was J.A. Glenn [phonetic], Joe Glenn. He was a P-38 fighter pilot in World War II, and when he’d come on leave, he was kind of the town hero. Since he lived next door, I could go visit with him, and he used to talk about flying and that sort of thing.\\n\\n Finally, when I got in school, I just kind [of] had a knack for math and physics and science and that sort of stuff, so I was interested in technical things. I don’t remember exactly when that happened, but all of that together, I guess, kind of led me to be interested in aviation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You actually graduated from the U.S. Military Academy [West Point, New York] in ‘55."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I notice that you elected to work with the Air Force rather than the Army. Can you tell us about that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 44.78936524857218, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. You bet. That’s your job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us how this program was different for you than the one that you had just come from, and, of course, how it was similar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were going to use the leftover Apollo hardware to essentially put in space the first temporary Space Station, so this was another big step forward. We were going to have some very sophisticated science on board. The solar physics observatory, the telescope to see the sun, was going, [and] it turned out [the things we learned] rewrote every chapter in every astronomy book on solar physics. This was a big deal.\\n\\n There were some very sophisticated medical experiments that were going to be run, [what would be the] long-term effects of weightlessness on the human body. These [experiments] were going to be very significant for moving on into longer trips into space.\\n\\n There were some very sensitive instruments for Earth resources, [with which] you could look down at the Earth and measure crop densities or see what the water content in the soil was and predict harvest rates and this sort of thing. So there were some very sophisticate Earth resources experiments. All of which [was] very exciting, so, you got over one disappointment and pressed on to the next big challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us what some of your first roles and responsibilities were when you got moved over to start working with Skylab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My assignment was the Earth resources equipment, and so I helped design—excuse me—I observed the design and put [in] the crew [requirements]. Again, I’m not an electrical engineer. I’m not an optics engineer. There were people doing that. But the crew interface, the human factors, the operational questions again were my responsibility, so I worked for quite some time on the Earth resources package of equipment that was going to go up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you mentioned earlier you were named as a backup for Skylab III and IV. Did your role start to change then, and what kind of training did you receive?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 60.27090255308672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you give us the situation and how you began to prepare for that and then the length of time we’re talking about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were also the backup crew, so we immediately jumped in the simulators to see whether there was a reliable way that we could bring them back with the one set of thrusters not working properly. Basically Vance was the lead on that and came up with a wonderful procedure that management [said was] totally safe to do. So we were so clever as the backup crew that we worked ourselves out of a flight as the rescue crew. You really didn’t want to have to go rescue them. You really wanted to bring them back safely with all their equipment, so that was the right choice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point in the program, your involvement in the Skylab Program, did you realize that your opportunity to be able to fly as part of an Apollo crew was gone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as part of the Apollo crew, it was when we were assigned to Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sorry. I meant Skylab."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 25, "return_to_go": 61.41211394787413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were also the backup crew, so we immediately jumped in the simulators to see whether there was a reliable way that we could bring them back with the one set of thrusters not working properly. Basically Vance was the lead on that and came up with a wonderful procedure that management [said was] totally safe to do. So we were so clever as the backup crew that we worked ourselves out of a flight as the rescue crew. You really didn’t want to have to go rescue them. You really wanted to bring them back safely with all their equipment, so that was the right choice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point in the program, your involvement in the Skylab Program, did you realize that your opportunity to be able to fly as part of an Apollo crew was gone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as part of the Apollo crew, it was when we were assigned to Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sorry. I meant Skylab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Skylab, [we had another great disappointment.] Washington makes these incredibly “wise” decisions—they decided never to launch the second Skylab. We were at a social gathering. I had a chance to talk to the Administrator and say, “You can’t do this. You can’t waste a two-and-a-half-billion-dollar piece of equipment and not go up and do the follow-on science that you can get with these incredible solar observatories.” The telescopes that we were using to observe the sun were absolutely rewriting the whole textbook on solar physics.\\n\\n Totally emotionless, he said, “That would delay the Shuttle by a year,” at which point I just sort of smiled and walked away. They had their criteria, and in their set of values, they made the right decision. In my set of values, they wasted a wonderful opportunity, but Headquarters being what Headquarters is, they make the decisions. You salute smartly and press on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement with bringing the Skylab down when they started to deorbit it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 54.26324332856901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t really have anything to do with that mission, because by that time, we were involved in Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they transition you over to the Shuttle area? Did they give you specific responsibilities at the beginning?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t remember just exactly what the very early responsibilities were. They just announced in a pilots’ meeting, “The following group of people will now be working on the Shuttle Project.” So, you get assignments accordingly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we move on to the Shuttle, I meant to ask, there’s a couple of things that you did I thought were of interest that you might want to talk about. One was that you were with fourteen other astronauts when you participated in the food compatibility test for Skylab missions. You got to test the foods that were going up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us what that was like and how they put that together for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 51.13648441434028, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, the Spacelab was very well designed. We had had a fair amount of input with the Europeans who built it, and [it] worked out very nicely for us. We had no problems at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about the differences and the similarities of training for the Apollo flights that you did compared to training for a Shuttle flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By the time we got to Shuttle, things were so much better known, because we knew what the physiological changes would be in the human body. We knew what all the mechanical problems [would be with] zero-G toilets and urinals in space and that sort of tomfoolery. How to handle washing your hands, and wringing out washrags so that water doesn’t float around, and food preparation. Many of the housekeeping tasks in Shuttle were well thought out, because we now had [experiences with these matters].\\n\\n Whereas in Apollo, we had to anticipate what things were going to be like. So the training didn’t quite have the glory [of the earlier programs]. Hey, it was exciting. I’m not downgrading it at all. But it didn’t have the sense of history, by the time we got to [the] Shuttle, that we had had in Apollo. But space is not routine, by any stretch of the imagination. But it was more manageable, because we had so much more data by that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the simulations compare to your launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very, very [well]. The simulations in NASA are spectacularly accurate. With the motion-based simulators, you even get some of the visceral sensations, because they can move the machine around and give you the sense of onset of zero-Gs; you can’t hold it indefinitely, but we had flown hundreds of parabolas in the zero-G aircraft [KC-135], the so-called “vomit comet,” so you were really quite accustomed to those things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After waiting so long, did you feel like you adapted to space well and felt like you hung for seven days?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 56.81831601593365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By the time we got to Shuttle, things were so much better known, because we knew what the physiological changes would be in the human body. We knew what all the mechanical problems [would be with] zero-G toilets and urinals in space and that sort of tomfoolery. How to handle washing your hands, and wringing out washrags so that water doesn’t float around, and food preparation. Many of the housekeeping tasks in Shuttle were well thought out, because we now had [experiences with these matters].\\n\\n Whereas in Apollo, we had to anticipate what things were going to be like. So the training didn’t quite have the glory [of the earlier programs]. Hey, it was exciting. I’m not downgrading it at all. But it didn’t have the sense of history, by the time we got to [the] Shuttle, that we had had in Apollo. But space is not routine, by any stretch of the imagination. But it was more manageable, because we had so much more data by that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the simulations compare to your launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very, very [well]. The simulations in NASA are spectacularly accurate. With the motion-based simulators, you even get some of the visceral sensations, because they can move the machine around and give you the sense of onset of zero-Gs; you can’t hold it indefinitely, but we had flown hundreds of parabolas in the zero-G aircraft [KC-135], the so-called “vomit comet,” so you were really quite accustomed to those things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After waiting so long, did you feel like you adapted to space well and felt like you hung for seven days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, thoroughly enjoyed it. Yes, yes, yes. No, it was a wonderful experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there some special anecdotes or some special memories of that flight that you’d like to share with us?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00331:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We thoroughly enjoyed NASA. We thoroughly enjoyed the Houston area. There’s the ballet and the—what do you call the amphitheater in the park up there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At Hermann Park?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the outdoor theater there and, oh—and the opera season here. We thoroughly enjoyed Houston. But it always felt temporary. We were raised in the mountains, and [Houston is] flat. [Laughs] The skiing is not very good in Houston. So we thoroughly enjoyed the twenty years we were here, but we felt that it was temporary, that sometime when you retire, you’re going to go back to the mountains where the skiing is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we certainly have enjoyed hearing everything from you today. Is there any other aspect or area that you’d like to discuss or any other thoughts?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you have brought up all the different areas. To me, this was as exciting as [Ferdinand de] Magellan’s trip around the world. I used to think as a kid, “Wouldn’t it have been wonderful to sail with Magellan? Wouldn’t it have been wonderful to sail with Captain [James] Cook?” Except in that little unpleasant thing in Hawaii where they [were] killed. And this was, to me, just as exciting as anything that I read about in history.\\n\\n [I] keep saying, “Oh, why was the Lord so good to get me into this thing?” I [feel] really privileged to be involved in these [exciting] things. I’ve had a chance to do [special] things, landing on aircraft carriers and flying into space and getting involved, intimately involved, in the preparations for the landing on the Moon. And I look back and think, “Oh, the Lord has been so good to me.” So I’m just grateful to have been involved in this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we thank you for sharing all this today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00989:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 16.81889842, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I had friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was those relationships that you’ve talked about since the beginning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The relationships were everything. Everything was relationships.\\n\\n In the last portion of this interview, Mr. Walker is referring to photographs in his personal collection.\\n\\n This was what the old photo lab was. We didn’t have a secretary for a long time. Our secretary died of cancer. We finally got a secretary. My wife was in the computer division. On the way home from work that day, I told her, “Hey, we got a secretary.”\\n\\n She said, “What’s her name?”\\n\\n I said, “Grace Toddy.”\\n\\n She said, “You stay away from her.”\\n\\n That’s Grace Toddy, and that was Art Laufman our sound man. See, that was some—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the personality coming out there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the personality coming out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s interesting. Is this the local paper?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00989:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.307282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the personality coming out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s interesting. Is this the local paper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the Elyria [Ohio] paper, the Chronicle-Telegram. That was my private shop where I could modify and do things, make things work different. That’s the zero-g [gravity] group. This is where I did a lot of work for the British government and the German government. A lot of top-secret work was done there. Nobody knew about it except the director of the lab, the head of security, and then this group of people. The head of security, because he had to transport our film by courier to have it done all the time. That was a great bunch of guys. This was one of my co-ops [cooperative education student]. Really, really an outstanding co-op.\\n\\n That’s inside the Zero-G [Facility]. You’re 550 feet in the air, and I’m using one of my girls to help me. We were mounting cameras along this. I designed this thing to be able to photograph objects falling 500 feet. Actually, we could fire them from bottom up, photograph them going up. Then they would turn around and fall back down, and you’d get 10 seconds of zero-g time, until Houston shut us down. They said they wanted to do all this work on the [Space] Shuttle, and of course then they couldn’t get the Shuttle to fly. We were shut down for probably two years. The facility was shut down, from politics from Headquarters. We went back into business again. We would open it up and do work for the Department of Defense.\\n\\n Getting an award from one of the Directors. This was from the Director. I don’t know what this is. She’s from editorial. She worked for me in composing, she worked for me in the print shop, and that was my division chief, who was an artist at the time. This is my old—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Air Force group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s my [Korean] War II stuff. This was my photo class. You learned to study there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet you did."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00989:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.5522, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s my [Korean] War II stuff. This was my photo class. You learned to study there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Once a month, you had to do KP [kitchen patrol]. KP started at 2:00 in the morning, and you didn’t get off until 9:00 at night. Then they would tell you, “Wash back three times, and that’s what you’re going to do for the rest of your career.” Wash back can be if your mother dies and you go home for a funeral, if you get appendicitis and you’re in a hospital, or you fail one phase test—wash back three times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s KP forever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and believe me, you studied. This group of guys studied like crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because you couldn’t really control those other things, but you could control how much you learned."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00989:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.058, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Once a month, you had to do KP [kitchen patrol]. KP started at 2:00 in the morning, and you didn’t get off until 9:00 at night. Then they would tell you, “Wash back three times, and that’s what you’re going to do for the rest of your career.” Wash back can be if your mother dies and you go home for a funeral, if you get appendicitis and you’re in a hospital, or you fail one phase test—wash back three times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s KP forever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and believe me, you studied. This group of guys studied like crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because you couldn’t really control those other things, but you could control how much you learned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in politics for several years, too. This was one of my co-op students. We were doing a job for the Navy on torpedoes. There’s Andy Stofan and his wife. This was the guy that took the job that I turned down, and he wound up as my deputy.\\n\\n This one here—my boss really hated this. It went in a little news [article] on the same page, at the same time. He got his recognition award for a federal executive order, and I was elected as chairman of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers. His big point in time, and it was spoiled. Everybody in the lab said, “Boy Ernie, you really faked him out on that one.” I didn’t have nothing to do with that.\\n\\n This photograph is showing how you can use one type of lens and change it for all these different kinds of cameras. We made up different kinds of adapters for it, so that you could use them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you worked with the machinists to make those adapters, or were those off-the-shelf adapters?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00989:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 5.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and believe me, you studied. This group of guys studied like crazy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because you couldn’t really control those other things, but you could control how much you learned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in politics for several years, too. This was one of my co-op students. We were doing a job for the Navy on torpedoes. There’s Andy Stofan and his wife. This was the guy that took the job that I turned down, and he wound up as my deputy.\\n\\n This one here—my boss really hated this. It went in a little news [article] on the same page, at the same time. He got his recognition award for a federal executive order, and I was elected as chairman of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers. His big point in time, and it was spoiled. Everybody in the lab said, “Boy Ernie, you really faked him out on that one.” I didn’t have nothing to do with that.\\n\\n This photograph is showing how you can use one type of lens and change it for all these different kinds of cameras. We made up different kinds of adapters for it, so that you could use them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you worked with the machinists to make those adapters, or were those off-the-shelf adapters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we just had them made in the machine shop. Called them up. I won a presidential award there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s your paper that was in the book?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00989:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we just had them made in the machine shop. Called them up. I won a presidential award there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that’s your paper that was in the book?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is one of them. This was another paper that was given. That’s the third conference, reducing temperature in high-speed photography. This was one of my co-op students. This is multi-mirror there. This is performance of multi-mirror quartz line lamps in high-pressure environments. Boy, they can blow up big.\\n\\n That’s some of the stuff I did. I don’t know what all this stuff is. There’s some from NASA. This is one of our picnics. That’s the icing research group. But you see, you worked together. That’s Bill Swann. He was head of flight.\\n\\n I did a lot of medical work. Worked with Dr. Beck starting in 1955, doing heart operations, before we had a heart-lung machine, and then all the way through. This is glaucoma surgery, glaucoma and cataract surgery. One of my most prized commendation letters is from President [Ronald W.] Reagan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, on my retirement. The group wrote him and got him to send me a letter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not everyone that retires gets a letter from the president. That’s for sure."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 34.26105538094573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d say it was a learning environment. Most of it was informal with the people I was working with, and with Dave Dennis, who kind of oversaw things. It was more particular than my education, but there were no surprises in that you just took what you had learned and pushed it further. I think I was pretty quick to pick things up. I was trying to remember, when I looked at this, if we had orientation classes. It seems like maybe we did, and maybe a little of that was toward scientific knowledge, so that you had a little feel for what else was going on around the Center. I don’t know if you’ve ever run into that, Glenn?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Helen Davies ran some sort of orientation, but not everybody took it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I went to some sessions of that that were just helpful in general areas. Yes, I remember Helen, when you mentioned her name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a lot of opportunities to cross over and meet other people that were working on different areas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say no. We were pretty insulated here. Even from the branch that was across the hall, we were not heavily interacting with them. My thought would be not much interaction—we were just doing our thing, here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe there was what they referred to as inspections back in 1958."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 36.95672820105081, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I went to some sessions of that that were just helpful in general areas. Yes, I remember Helen, when you mentioned her name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a lot of opportunities to cross over and meet other people that were working on different areas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say no. We were pretty insulated here. Even from the branch that was across the hall, we were not heavily interacting with them. My thought would be not much interaction—we were just doing our thing, here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe there was what they referred to as inspections back in 1958."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Centers would get together and give papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Were you involved with those as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 36.61858689005645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say no. We were pretty insulated here. Even from the branch that was across the hall, we were not heavily interacting with them. My thought would be not much interaction—we were just doing our thing, here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe there was what they referred to as inspections back in 1958."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Centers would get together and give papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Were you involved with those as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe you have the history—I certainly was at a couple of them, and I don’t know if they were when we were NACA or NASA. I was at one here, and then at one back at Langley, where I traveled on the airplane with Harvey Allen. In fact, we had a little trouble with the room reservations, and I ended up sleeping in the same room with Harvey Allen. He was a great friend later on and a great, great scientist and a great man. I think I gave a paper back there. For some reason, I remember [once] here, and somebody from Langley gave a paper on boundary layers. There came questions from the audience, and they were some pointed questions and some disagreements. [The speaker] got done and he went over to somebody and said, “Who is that?” That was Harvey Allen questioning him and [Harvey] didn’t quite agree with his theory. That was kind of fun. I don’t remember a lot about those—I just remember that they were happening. I don’t know when they stopped, but probably not long after NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your role, did you have a lot of research that you needed to do on what other people were doing? If so, how were you able to obtain that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 38.46509654450716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Centers would get together and give papers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Were you involved with those as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe you have the history—I certainly was at a couple of them, and I don’t know if they were when we were NACA or NASA. I was at one here, and then at one back at Langley, where I traveled on the airplane with Harvey Allen. In fact, we had a little trouble with the room reservations, and I ended up sleeping in the same room with Harvey Allen. He was a great friend later on and a great, great scientist and a great man. I think I gave a paper back there. For some reason, I remember [once] here, and somebody from Langley gave a paper on boundary layers. There came questions from the audience, and they were some pointed questions and some disagreements. [The speaker] got done and he went over to somebody and said, “Who is that?” That was Harvey Allen questioning him and [Harvey] didn’t quite agree with his theory. That was kind of fun. I don’t remember a lot about those—I just remember that they were happening. I don’t know when they stopped, but probably not long after NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your role, did you have a lot of research that you needed to do on what other people were doing? If so, how were you able to obtain that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn’t say a lot, but we were looking at NASA memorandums and that kind of thing. The stuff we were doing was mostly coming out of NACA and NASA, and not the industry particularly. The library would have copies of Confidential, and we could get Secret when we wanted it. We were looking at some of those that had testing in the same area, some from Langley, particularly, since there was a lot of overlap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a feeling of competition?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 23.41293237503195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From one rival to the other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was interesting. I think it was good, as I said, to have somebody from Ames there and somebody from Langley here, and maybe quieted things down. It was a friendly rivalry; we were just trying to outdo each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think you brought from Ames that benefited the operation at Langley?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d say the overall knowledge of aeronautics and the management capability, but a lot of it was I understood what was going on, and I could be a good leader in terms of developing a program and putting it together. Don Hearth and I agreed to split things up, and I ran the aeronautics part at Langley and he ran the space part. I ran the facilities part and he ran the personnel part. We worked very well together. We took some psychology tests and we were opposites, which was good. He was a guy who liked snap decisions and I was the guy who liked to toss it around and think about all the possibilities. He was honest, he said he thought that was helpful, so we worked well together. That was a good time at Langley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then at some point, you moved in and were in charge of everything, is that correct? As a Director there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.68103597225772, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was interesting. I think it was good, as I said, to have somebody from Ames there and somebody from Langley here, and maybe quieted things down. It was a friendly rivalry; we were just trying to outdo each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think you brought from Ames that benefited the operation at Langley?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d say the overall knowledge of aeronautics and the management capability, but a lot of it was I understood what was going on, and I could be a good leader in terms of developing a program and putting it together. Don Hearth and I agreed to split things up, and I ran the aeronautics part at Langley and he ran the space part. I ran the facilities part and he ran the personnel part. We worked very well together. We took some psychology tests and we were opposites, which was good. He was a guy who liked snap decisions and I was the guy who liked to toss it around and think about all the possibilities. He was honest, he said he thought that was helpful, so we worked well together. That was a good time at Langley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then at some point, you moved in and were in charge of everything, is that correct? As a Director there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, in 1986, Don decided to retire and he very nicely did everything he could, and I think was influential, in being sure I became the Director. He really wanted that to happen, which was nice. I became Director in 1986, and by that time, I was very comfortable there and had a good Deputy, and had five years as the Center Director, which was also a good time, and I think I was well cut out for that. Arguing with Headquarters about money and so forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That never goes away, does it? Did you have a challenge of direction there, with maintaining a balance with aeronautics as well as the other operations that Langley was moving into?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.26558616108269, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a good question. I don’t think I ever contributed that much to aerodynamics. As I got into management and I understood it and I enjoyed seeing what the folks did, but they were smarter than I was in aerodynamics, so I was just following along. I’d say in management, one of the things I always said was that I worked for the employees; they didn’t work for me. It was my job to get them the right resources and direct them in the right directions so they could make use of all the talent that was there. I think I was fairly successful at that, and I think I was a good manager and I was popular with the people, mostly. Some people, you’re never popular with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’d be really special if you were with all of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, yes. There were some challenges in management, but nothing too serious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask Sandra, do you have any questions you want to ask?\n\nYes, in speaking about management style, is there any one person or any people that you patterned your management style after? Since you said you worked for the people under you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think back—Sy Syvertson, I think, was somebody who had the type of management style that I did. Hans definitely didn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or maybe an example of what you didn’t want to be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 32.517317956758546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, yes. There were some challenges in management, but nothing too serious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask Sandra, do you have any questions you want to ask?\n\nYes, in speaking about management style, is there any one person or any people that you patterned your management style after? Since you said you worked for the people under you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think back—Sy Syvertson, I think, was somebody who had the type of management style that I did. Hans definitely didn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or maybe an example of what you didn’t want to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wouldn’t say that. He just had capabilities that I couldn’t touch. He was a special kind of guy. Harvey Allen, I don’t think was a good example because he was a little bit out of his element. Don Hearth, who I went to work for, I think was a good, good example. I think working for the people was just natural with me. That’s what I was interested in. I saw, unfortunately, more at Headquarters, managers who were interested in working for the people above them, and they wanted to make a good impression upward, which I think is bad, but that’s the way it goes. Somehow, some of them get up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were at Langley at an interesting time when you became Director, ’85-’86, around that time, and of course, the Shuttle Challenger [STS-51L] accident. Do you have any memories of that, or how it affected Langley?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:82", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 35.78044180591256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a newsletter. I don’t remember a lot of social events. There may have been, but we had social events within our branch and things there, and then I played on a basketball team that played for six or eight years, until we got too old. One night, I was playing and I sort of ran out of breath and had a little panic attack and I said, “That’s enough of that.” The problem is, I could slow down, but if I’m on the court, I can’t slow down, I had to give it everything, and I didn’t have it anymore. That was fun. One of the interesting things is one of the guys that was on that team was J. [Jerry] Lohr, if you’ve drunk his wine?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was working here at NACA, and he married a gal whose father was in the real estate development business. He went into that business and did very well, and somewhere along the line, started a winery. I tried to make it through the screen with an email to him, but it didn’t get to him. You know how you do that, you try to say where you knew him and so forth. Tom [Thomas J.] Gregory, who’s still around, was on the basketball team, and we had some good poker games among the guys who were in the branch. But, I don’t remember big social events. There may have been. I don’t know what you’ve got."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It varies.\n\nGlenn, did you have some questions?\n\nI did. Can we go back to Purdue a little bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is it you decided to go there? What were the sort of things that your classmates were interested in? Did the studying that you were doing there really prepare you to run a supersonic wind tunnel, or did that happen at Caltech?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.946718192215453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean after?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, from Purdue."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They scattered around with engineering jobs. Goodyear, some of them, a lot of them Indiana. One of them became a politician. I was in a fraternity, and they were fraternity brothers, mostly. One of them worked for the steel mills in Chicago as an engineer, and they just scattered all over the place. Purdue engineers, I’d say a third to a half of them stay in Indiana, but the rest go all over the place. You could go to any company and there were lots of Purdue engineers—Boeing, Lockheed. In fact, Purdue, for many, many years, had more graduate engineers than any other school. Texas A&M [University, College Station] became a competitor for the most engineering alumni. Good school, good reputation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of astronauts come out of [Purdue], too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was a contest between the [United States] Naval Academy [Annapolis, Maryland] and Purdue as to who had the most astronauts, and Purdue was ahead for quite a while. I don’t know what it is now. I went to an astronaut reunion at Purdue, somewhere like ’98 or something like that, and they had 21 of them there, which was quite something. I knew Neil [A. Armstrong] and I knew Gene [Eugene A.] Cernan from Purdue, and Jerry [L.] Ross, who was later, I got to know because he did a lot of work at Langley. I got to know a bunch of the astronauts along the way.\\n\\n Met Neil, had a class at Purdue, aircraft drafting, where Neil was a student instructor. He was a year ahead of me. That’s how I met him, and that class took place in what they called the Quonset huts they had from World War II in one position on the campus. Where those were located is where the Neil Armstrong Engineering Building is right now, so that’s kind of a kick. Neil was a great guy. I was sorry when we lost him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And someone who thought of himself as an engineer, first."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:102", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.239476015200005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Her name’s Jody. She was raised in San Francisco, went to Cal-Berkeley [University of California, Berkeley], but she had a boyfriend, who came back to Purdue and joined our fraternity. He was a year behind me. When I got to San Francisco, I lived in Palo Alto, actually, and started work here, he and his wife came because he had just finished [Purdue and was going to go to Stanford Business School. While] I was at Caltech, he was finishing Purdue. [In Palo Alto] they moved into an apartment two doors away from mine—partially because I was there and they saw this place and it looked good. He kept saying, “I know this great girl, I think you’d really like her.” I was a little involved with a couple others, but after about three or four months, I finally said, “Okay, Mark, I’ll try it,” and she said she’d given up on blind dates, but she trusted Mark. We went on a blind date and that’s where it all began."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a social life outside of work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always had a social life. I liked to be involved, and of course, San Francisco was great. I don’t know how I did it sometimes. We were dating and it was not only the weekend, I was up there a couple nights during the week, and we had the Kingston Trio and the Gateway Singers, and all kinds of good entertainment. I did a lot of driving back and forth, and sometimes didn’t get as much sleep as I should have had, but it was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I do my math right, you were here at Ames when Sputnik [Russian satellite] went up. Do you remember that being a major event around here? Did everybody sort of start talking about how things were going to change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was I here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "October ’57? You would have just started?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:104", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.932751128000007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always had a social life. I liked to be involved, and of course, San Francisco was great. I don’t know how I did it sometimes. We were dating and it was not only the weekend, I was up there a couple nights during the week, and we had the Kingston Trio and the Gateway Singers, and all kinds of good entertainment. I did a lot of driving back and forth, and sometimes didn’t get as much sleep as I should have had, but it was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I do my math right, you were here at Ames when Sputnik [Russian satellite] went up. Do you remember that being a major event around here? Did everybody sort of start talking about how things were going to change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was I here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "October ’57? You would have just started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I remember hearing that it was up there, and knowing that if we hadn’t screwed around so much with the Navy and Vanguard [TV3 rocket failure], that [Wernher] von Braun could have done it before they did it. They finally let him do it. Knowing a little more about it, it wasn’t so disastrous as the laymen thought, that they were way ahead of us. They weren’t that far ahead of us. It was kind of distressing that they did it first. That’s about all I remember about that. Of course, we were already looking at Mercury [Program], and that actually came out of Langley, but we were looking at it here, too. That was already started, and that’s what I remember [Sputnik]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Specifically, to learn a little bit more about Sy Syvertson and Al Eggers. The blunt body was, of course, Harvey Allen’s idea, that Langley and [Maxime A.] Faget had picked up on. Al Eggers, a year or two before Sputnik, had started talking about what became the [Northrop] M2-F2 lifting body, the semi-[conical] one, which I think was one of the first things you tested."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:106", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.814167920000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was I here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "October ’57? You would have just started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I remember hearing that it was up there, and knowing that if we hadn’t screwed around so much with the Navy and Vanguard [TV3 rocket failure], that [Wernher] von Braun could have done it before they did it. They finally let him do it. Knowing a little more about it, it wasn’t so disastrous as the laymen thought, that they were way ahead of us. They weren’t that far ahead of us. It was kind of distressing that they did it first. That’s about all I remember about that. Of course, we were already looking at Mercury [Program], and that actually came out of Langley, but we were looking at it here, too. That was already started, and that’s what I remember [Sputnik]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Specifically, to learn a little bit more about Sy Syvertson and Al Eggers. The blunt body was, of course, Harvey Allen’s idea, that Langley and [Maxime A.] Faget had picked up on. Al Eggers, a year or two before Sputnik, had started talking about what became the [Northrop] M2-F2 lifting body, the semi-[conical] one, which I think was one of the first things you tested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was a flat-top, by the way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Eggers’ thought was that this was a better returnable capsule and the way to go with Mercury, and then, of course, Sputnik accelerated everything and they went with the ballistic [blunt body]. Did you remember your first research project there being part of the larger Mercury Program, or had they already decided on the blunt body, the ballistic capsule sort of shape?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:108", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.682408800000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I remember hearing that it was up there, and knowing that if we hadn’t screwed around so much with the Navy and Vanguard [TV3 rocket failure], that [Wernher] von Braun could have done it before they did it. They finally let him do it. Knowing a little more about it, it wasn’t so disastrous as the laymen thought, that they were way ahead of us. They weren’t that far ahead of us. It was kind of distressing that they did it first. That’s about all I remember about that. Of course, we were already looking at Mercury [Program], and that actually came out of Langley, but we were looking at it here, too. That was already started, and that’s what I remember [Sputnik]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Specifically, to learn a little bit more about Sy Syvertson and Al Eggers. The blunt body was, of course, Harvey Allen’s idea, that Langley and [Maxime A.] Faget had picked up on. Al Eggers, a year or two before Sputnik, had started talking about what became the [Northrop] M2-F2 lifting body, the semi-[conical] one, which I think was one of the first things you tested."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was a flat-top, by the way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Eggers’ thought was that this was a better returnable capsule and the way to go with Mercury, and then, of course, Sputnik accelerated everything and they went with the ballistic [blunt body]. Did you remember your first research project there being part of the larger Mercury Program, or had they already decided on the blunt body, the ballistic capsule sort of shape?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when we tested it, it was pretty well decided. I’m not really positive about that. The M2-F2, in my mind, came later, later than 1960. I was certainly aware of the development of that, but I think that was when I was down at the 3.5-Foot, as best I can remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember much interaction between Sy Syvertson and Al Eggers?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:110", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.758232000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was a flat-top, by the way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Eggers’ thought was that this was a better returnable capsule and the way to go with Mercury, and then, of course, Sputnik accelerated everything and they went with the ballistic [blunt body]. Did you remember your first research project there being part of the larger Mercury Program, or had they already decided on the blunt body, the ballistic capsule sort of shape?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when we tested it, it was pretty well decided. I’m not really positive about that. The M2-F2, in my mind, came later, later than 1960. I was certainly aware of the development of that, but I think that was when I was down at the 3.5-Foot, as best I can remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember much interaction between Sy Syvertson and Al Eggers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they competitors, collaborators?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:112", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.842480000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when we tested it, it was pretty well decided. I’m not really positive about that. The M2-F2, in my mind, came later, later than 1960. I was certainly aware of the development of that, but I think that was when I was down at the 3.5-Foot, as best I can remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember much interaction between Sy Syvertson and Al Eggers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they competitors, collaborators?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, collaborators. They worked together quite well. Al was the senior, but they were good together. We used to laugh because Al Eggers is one of those guys who has a million ideas, and you’d get together and he’d say, “Well, we ought to look at this idea.”\\n\\n Somebody would say, “That’s not going to work.”\\n\\n He would say, “Well, I think it might,” and he might get talked out of that, but then he had another idea. He was one of those, 1 out of 10 was pretty good, and we could sort out, maybe, 5 of the 10 without having to do them. There was one other thing that Al was famous for. If you do supersonic stuff, you have very pointy noses and you have very sharp edges on the wings, but particularly the nose. He was famous for coming in and saying, “Boy, that’s really sharp,” and he’d try it out with his finger, which would bend it a little bit. People used to say, “Don’t touch it, Al!” I didn’t have a lot of interaction with him, but he and Sy, I think, worked very well together. Then, eventually, he left for the National Science Foundation, so he got out of the loop. I thought for a while, he might [have been] a Center Director. He was a good guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have any thoughts on why he didn’t?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00967:114", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 22.0472, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they competitors, collaborators?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, collaborators. They worked together quite well. Al was the senior, but they were good together. We used to laugh because Al Eggers is one of those guys who has a million ideas, and you’d get together and he’d say, “Well, we ought to look at this idea.”\\n\\n Somebody would say, “That’s not going to work.”\\n\\n He would say, “Well, I think it might,” and he might get talked out of that, but then he had another idea. He was one of those, 1 out of 10 was pretty good, and we could sort out, maybe, 5 of the 10 without having to do them. There was one other thing that Al was famous for. If you do supersonic stuff, you have very pointy noses and you have very sharp edges on the wings, but particularly the nose. He was famous for coming in and saying, “Boy, that’s really sharp,” and he’d try it out with his finger, which would bend it a little bit. People used to say, “Don’t touch it, Al!” I didn’t have a lot of interaction with him, but he and Sy, I think, worked very well together. Then, eventually, he left for the National Science Foundation, so he got out of the loop. I thought for a while, he might [have been] a Center Director. He was a good guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have any thoughts on why he didn’t?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I can’t remember whether it was because they didn’t select him or because he just got interested in the National Science Foundation. He was competing with [Dean R.] Chapman, who was a pretty popular guy at that time. I’d have trouble putting together, time-wise, who was involved because we didn’t see a lot of Eggers, but he was still around quite a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Vic [Victor L.] Peterson and Loren [G.] Bright? Were they people that you worked very closely with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00252:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 36.26634743413611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. I had no real concept of what, you know, an Indian reservation would be like. I was surprised by the poverty, surprised by the living conditions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I finally remembered the name of the guy that was the sheriff, it was Nickson. I think it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It might have been, yeah, the Indian policemen, they were kind of scary guys, I thought. Living in the trailers, helping to set the trailers up, you know, that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do out on the reservation? What did you do on the reservation? As part of your, you mentioned welding, was that out on the reservation too, or just other stuff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, my recollection is of most of our training experience and learning experience was actually in setting up the trailers. They were the ones that we put in the sanitation systems. We’d put in the sewage lines and things like that. We learned a little bit about irrigation because, you know, the Maricopa had the cotton fields and the irrigation systems. I remember working with Larry Wohlwend, he helped to get a bulldozer running more efficiently than it was running. We were talking about that and I didn't think it was running, but not very well. But we started the chicken co-op, we built the chicken, we've built a chicken houses, the chicken shelters, and brought in all the chickens and gave some classes and in poultry science to the Maricopas, to the tribe there. I remember some of the Indian women who worked in the kitchen, I guess it was at the tribal center. And they were they were very nice, the ladies that were there. The standing joke was as soon as we left, it was going to be the biggest chicken barbecue in the history of Maricopa County."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably. What about after that training in Arizona, can you talk a bit about the next phase?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00252:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 40.40651225533073, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the last thing that I remember is leaving Arizona, of course, we had a graduation program and that was very nice, but I had four wisdom teeth taken out a couple of days before we left, before we left Arizona. And I think I had them. They weren't through my gum. So I had to have them and I had to have them cut out and pulled out. And I had some stitches. And we left on a Saturday, I believe, to go to Puerto Rico. And I went and had the stitches out because I remember flying in the plane, with jaws like a chipmunk. My face was swollen up from having those teeth pulled. We traveled as a group, and I thought that was neat. I remember we had a whole plane to ourselves and back then anyway, flying was very glamorous. At least I thought it was, you know you know, everybody, they really treated you well. They treated you nicely. We had the whole plane to ourselves. We flew, I know we had a little layover in New Orleans. And we went down to Bourbon Street and walked around and got on the plane again and got to Puerto Rico. Got to the training camp in the Yungas, I guess it is?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Near Arecibo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the tropical rainforest there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Camp Crozier, I think it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cape Crozier, yeah, that was the name of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you remember about the Puerto Rican experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00252:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 44.89612472814526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the tropical rainforest there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Camp Crozier, I think it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cape Crozier, yeah, that was the name of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you remember about the Puerto Rican experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the physical training there, as I say, in my experience, it was more demanding than basic training in the Army. With all the, to me, they weren't physical challenges, they were more mental challenges, you know, to be able to slide down the pulley rope and rappel over the side of a dam and do the drown proofing in the ocean. When I that that was something, I've never been a good swimmer and I didn't like that at all, being out in the ocean and just staying out there and learning how to drown proof yourself. But what I remember most about it is the trek we had to do across, the kind of survival trek that we had to do across the island. All of the Puerto Rican people that we met out in the countryside were so very nice. They were they were always inviting us in for something to eat or something to drink. And when they heard we were going to sleep outside."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Felt sorry for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00252:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.940500000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, OK, so, uh, did you at the end of your first year, did you have any kind of sense of, you know, how things are going in all, remember how things were midway through the experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, in November. We got a letter from President Kennedy at the end of our first year. I thought that was quite an honor to get a letter from the White House that the president sent congratulating us on the first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it actually got to you in Bolivia!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. The other thing that I remember very clearly was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated because I had eaten lunch and I was upstairs, you know, taking a siesta. And I had a, the Peace Corps give me a transistor, Zenith transoceanic radio, shortwave radio. And I was listening to the Voice of America. I used to listen to the Voice of America and the BBC. And this announcer kept talking and he said several times, President Johnson. And I was laying there kind of half awake, half asleep. And I said, what's the matter with this guy? Doesn't he know it’s Vice President Johnson? But, you know, he said it several times and then he started to recount the assassination of the president and, you know, that was just absolutely shocking. And besides that, besides the shock of that and hearing about it in that way, I was surprised by the messages of condolences from all the Bolivian people in the village. They were very upset. And I know they had, in Cochabamba, they had tributes and they had memorials. And it really, his assassination really had an impact on the Bolivian people.\n\nI was surprised by that. I was really surprised by that. But those, those sympathies were sincere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they were."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00252:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. There's no doubt about it. My grandmother. My grandmother died, when I was in the army, but I had lived with her for a couple of years on the farm after my grandfather died. She says, well, when you graduate from high school, you'll meet a nice girl and get a job and get married. And if you want to, you can live here on the farm. You know, she had she had those kinds of plans for me, you know? So, yeah, I went in an entirely different direction. And, you know, as I said, I spent 33 years in the Department of Corrections and a pretty responsible position. I worked with people from all over the country and people from all over the world and people with all kinds of experiences, but I always go back to my Peace Corps experience and I say, you know what? There's something that I remember from here that I can use there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if you had to put it in a nutshell, what would you say you got out of that Peace Corps experience? That applies in all these different ways?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Geez, that's a hard question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just, I don't know the answer. I'm just asking it, just you know what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, confidence. Absolute confidence that, you know, if I could go through everything that I went through in the Peace Corps. And I thought I could pretty much do anything. I was the first person in my family to go to college, first person to graduate from college. You know, I have just always been able to do the things I had to do and, you know, and it's no matter what, you know, what life throws at you, you know, I've always felt confident that I could deal with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's a pretty great thing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00252:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Geez, that's a hard question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm just, I don't know the answer. I'm just asking it, just you know what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, confidence. Absolute confidence that, you know, if I could go through everything that I went through in the Peace Corps. And I thought I could pretty much do anything. I was the first person in my family to go to college, first person to graduate from college. You know, I have just always been able to do the things I had to do and, you know, and it's no matter what, you know, what life throws at you, you know, I've always felt confident that I could deal with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's a pretty great thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we're about at the end of our time. And thank you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00133:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 53.79069288708097, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. I have to go look at the list sometime and see if there’s anybody else that I knew before then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things I know that was involved in the interview process was writing an essay on “Why I want to be an astronaut.” Do you recall what you wrote?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It was about that much, though. [Gestures]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I don’t. Duane [L. Ross] didn’t keep that stuff, did he? [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if he did, I haven’t seen it. That might be kind of interesting to read some of those."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00133:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 59.76743654120108, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It was about that much, though. [Gestures]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I don’t. Duane [L. Ross] didn’t keep that stuff, did he? [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if he did, I haven’t seen it. That might be kind of interesting to read some of those."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I remember reading some during the astronaut selection process, but until you mention it, I didn’t even remember writing my own. I know I did. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you eventually end up settling when you moved to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00133:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 40, "return_to_go": 69.78958475279225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, there weren’t any problems with the backup flight software. I believe that the problem that we had that scrubbed the original launch was the redundant set problem, that complicated pass stuff. I believe that was it. I’m trying to remember back.\\n\\n It was pretty exciting. Everybody’s gone through a lot of simulations. We had sat back there during the integrated simulations and then done some of that, so a lot of it was not new, but the whole anticipation of a real launch was definitely there. Lots of doughnuts being consumed. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what are your memories of liftoff then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was holding my breath that it would hold together and actually work. I mean, you know, there’s all the testing and everything, and still, you know, you put that together, and it was such a different structure for something to fly, with this big thing hanging off the side of a tank, solid rocket motors and everything. I just held my breath. Still do. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when they landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was back in the control center for landing, again in the SPAN, but I remember that, and I remember everybody pouring out, waving their flags or whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, I understand you were a chase pilot for the next two missions. How did you get that assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00133:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 42.93489521840001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or you went back to El Paso."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Went back to El Paso, right. Right. We didn’t want to land at White Sands. You don’t want to land a T-38 at White Sands. You don’t want to land anything at White Sands. [Laughs] The Orbiter wound up sitting out there for a month and got so much sand in it that I don’t think they ever got it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your next assignment, according to your biosheet, was you were a support crewman for STS-5."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that and what that involved?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00133:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 53.703544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. He had just came in. Of course, the Apollo 7 guys were the ones that were in primary training and the ones that, if I went over to the simulator to sit over there and take notes and abuse and stuff and write it down, they were the ones that were in training during that summer. There were others in the office that I got to know, primarily because they knew that—you know, there were some Air Force Academy guys around. Jim [James A.] McDivitt was the one I remember the most in doing that at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, why don’t we stop and take a break, and we’ll change out the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay.\\n\\n [Tape change.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we were going to talk about your CapCom [Capsule Communicator] duties first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Do you need to say anything so you know what tape this is or anything?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, we’ve got that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.080766013249004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There was a lot of tension. There were some really trying times. But it actually worked pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you were working with getting all of this organized and getting the curatorial facilities set up, what involvement, if any, did you have with the astronauts who were preparing for the later missions? Did you have any of them coming and looking at moon samples or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From time to time the astronauts would come around and look. Apollo 14 was the only one that I fully participated in, where there was still a quarantine, and we had interaction with them in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, used to try to add information to what they had recorded or talked about during the mission.\\n\\n For Apollo 14, that wasn't terribly successful, not that they weren't interested in helping, but my impression is that the experience on the moon was so intense that in some ways it just made everything a blur, that they really were not very good at remembering details after they got back. So you couldn't ask them a question like, \"Do you remember picking up that rock? Why did you do that?\" It was just a blur to them by that time.\\n\\n Some of the astronauts took a great interest in the samples afterwards and even wrote technical papers on their missions. Some of them didn't take all that great interest in the science afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure Harrison Schmitt was one of the ones that did take a good deal of interest."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. John Young, of course, has been great. He's been a devotee of the moon ever since he was there, and has interacted over the years with the scientists and science community. I have a great deal of respect for John."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. And he's still so involved over at JSC."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 36.75640668138778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From time to time the astronauts would come around and look. Apollo 14 was the only one that I fully participated in, where there was still a quarantine, and we had interaction with them in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, used to try to add information to what they had recorded or talked about during the mission.\\n\\n For Apollo 14, that wasn't terribly successful, not that they weren't interested in helping, but my impression is that the experience on the moon was so intense that in some ways it just made everything a blur, that they really were not very good at remembering details after they got back. So you couldn't ask them a question like, \"Do you remember picking up that rock? Why did you do that?\" It was just a blur to them by that time.\\n\\n Some of the astronauts took a great interest in the samples afterwards and even wrote technical papers on their missions. Some of them didn't take all that great interest in the science afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure Harrison Schmitt was one of the ones that did take a good deal of interest."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. John Young, of course, has been great. He's been a devotee of the moon ever since he was there, and has interacted over the years with the scientists and science community. I have a great deal of respect for John."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. And he's still so involved over at JSC."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's good to see him interested in the science aspects. Did you have any contribution or any involvement at all in looking at some of the lunar landing sites, any of the selection in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 38.618229645986425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. John Young, of course, has been great. He's been a devotee of the moon ever since he was there, and has interacted over the years with the scientists and science community. I have a great deal of respect for John."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. And he's still so involved over at JSC."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's good to see him interested in the science aspects. Did you have any contribution or any involvement at all in looking at some of the lunar landing sites, any of the selection in that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't participate in that part of the process. That had been going on since the mid sixties. At that Woods Hole conference, already there was discussion of the landing sites, and the Geological Survey organization in which I worked was actually developing the maps and identifying potential landing sites and was, in fact, involved in astronaut training as well for the missions. But I didn't take part in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the missions, while you were curator, what did you do at that time? Did you follow the missions closely, go to Mission Control at all? Or did you just wait for the samples to come back?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 39.57581071776269, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's good to see him interested in the science aspects. Did you have any contribution or any involvement at all in looking at some of the lunar landing sites, any of the selection in that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't participate in that part of the process. That had been going on since the mid sixties. At that Woods Hole conference, already there was discussion of the landing sites, and the Geological Survey organization in which I worked was actually developing the maps and identifying potential landing sites and was, in fact, involved in astronaut training as well for the missions. But I didn't take part in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the missions, while you were curator, what did you do at that time? Did you follow the missions closely, go to Mission Control at all? Or did you just wait for the samples to come back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We're usually in a panic mode, because there were always things that weren't quite ready for the samples, so we were always busy doing the last-minute details, waiting to receive the samples. We followed the people that were actually in the back room in the Mission Control Center, where a small group of people, they'd mostly been involved in training the crews and in doing the site science strategy planning. So they were—I don't remember the name of that team, but they were closely involved.\\n\\n We, of course, watched all of the EVAs on television to the extent we could and listened to the discussions between the crew and the Mission Control Center, and just generally tried to understand what was going on and what we were going to expect to see when they got back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they did get back and you were looking at the samples and organizing them and processing them and so forth, were there any surprises?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 32, "return_to_go": 62.93822406998825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Learn stuff. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you came to the end of the Apollo Program then, at what point did you then move into—you later became chief of the Solar System Exploration. Did you stay curator for a while after the program ended and then move over?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, like I said, the program hasn't ended yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's still a curator, and the Lunar Sample Program continues, but we've added other sample collections. So after the Apollo flight missions ended, we still had a large amount of work. We went through the analysis of the Apollo 17 mission rocks, but then it was clear that there were a lot of samples from the previous missions that hadn't been properly studied, and it was a time when a lot of people went back and looked at what they had done and said, \"Here we could make progress if we study this sample.\" So the period of intense study continued for at least three or four years.\\n\\n This sequence of things that happened was that Paul Gast was the chief of the division during the Apollo missions and he, unfortunately, passed away. It's hard to remember when. In 1973, I guess, or thereabouts. One of the people from the scientific community, Dr. Larry [A.] Haskin, was appointed to be the chief of the division, to follow Gast. Larry had the position for a couple of years, two and a half years, maybe, and decided that being a NASA bureaucrat was not cut out for him, and so he went back to the university, and he's now at Washington University in St. Louis [Missouri], and he's been a continuing contributor to lunar science throughout his career.\\n\\n So there was a vacancy. I was curator. We looked around for somebody from the outside for a while and didn't find anybody that suited us to fill Haskin's position, and eventually I was chosen to do that. So it was sort of an evolution, a promotion, if you will, within the JSC organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that he didn't like being a NASA bureaucrat. Were you able to balance your geologic and scientific interest with the management?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 47.15473871359281, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're going to pause here real quick, if we can, and change the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. [Recorder turned off]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were talking about the various programs that JSC was able to expand into and get into, to keep planetary science going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And to keep sample science going, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As these ideas would come in, were these again coming from both people in your department and from the scientific community, people putting proposals for different sample collections?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 52.39415412621423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. [Recorder turned off]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were talking about the various programs that JSC was able to expand into and get into, to keep planetary science going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And to keep sample science going, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As these ideas would come in, were these again coming from both people in your department and from the scientific community, people putting proposals for different sample collections?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The basic ideas came from people at JSC. There aren't many new ideas. What happens is that people get attuned to different things and so they recognize opportunities when some new information comes about. I think that that's, for example, what happened with the Antarctic meteorite program. People at JSC had been working on lunar samples and recognized that the techniques that we had and capabilities would be applicable to this new set of samples, and that there was a valid scientific reason for at least proposing to do that. So we just proposed it. You interact with people as you develop a proposal. You don't just get an idea and write it down most the time and send it off to somebody. But the ideas for these new things basically came from people at JSC who recognized, because of their experience and heritage, that they had something that could be done and would be good to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any new—you talked earlier how you had developed all the different procedures and different methods and tools. As these other—the Antarctic meteorites, and then looking at the Mars return, return from a comet, were there new considerations that had to make any drastic changes?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.45886822388083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we're still waiting for the space station to get out of the way. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You definitely—while the space station is going, it is important to always keep looking forward to the next step."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what we thought, but, you see, that's the thought we had in 1984. [Laughter] And here it is 1999. So we're still waiting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully not much longer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The space station, to some people, is an impediment. I don't view it that way. I wish it had been finished earlier for less money and less contention, but it really is a step in the process. Okay, so it's not the place that you would use to launch missions to Mars, but I really think that it will turn out to be a major step in human exploration, and one of the things that exploration people did not do very well was tie the programmatic link to the space station.\\n\\n When Tom Stafford and the Synthesis Group made its report, it virtually ignored the role of the space station in human exploration. I think since people have really gotten interested in Mars exploration, that that space station looks a little bit more relevant to many people, because that's where you will learn about people in space for long periods of time. But it really did not get the attention that it should have, and I think we probably suffer a little bit from that now. I think we'll learn a lot of really important things in the Space Station Program and we'll look back another thirty years, you'll see that it really was an important thing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In any of your work with the Exploration Program Office or any of your other work, were you involved in any of the remote sensing or earth evaluation projects or studies that were under way?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.391541533078612, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Well, the universities are very interested. Just this week we're receiving proposals for this coming year. I'm hoping we'll have twenty universities involved and at least 1,000 students in one way or another involved in the program. They're always very enthusiastic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Very good to hear. In your career with the space program, you've mentioned throughout our talk, various individuals you've worked with. Were there any that had a really large impact on—of course, Jack Schmitt getting you involved with the geology—but that had a large impact on the various stages of your career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Well, going back, Jack Schmitt. Lee [Leon T.] Silver had a lot of impact. Gerry Wasserberg, sort of a love-hate relationship. He was always a very stressful person to work with, but he was always insightful and a very strong supporter of the program. I learned a heck of a lot from him. Aaron Cohen was obviously important personally and professionally. Paul Gast and Larry Haskin were both key people.\\n\\n I've learned a lot and benefited from a lot of scientific colleagues, including Wendell Mendell and a whole bunch of people in the Solar System—they call it—I don't remember what they call it now. Science and Solar System Exploration Division at JSC. Another person who has been a friend and a colleague since 1984 is Paul [W.] Keaton, who was at the Los Alamos Laboratory. We formed a collaboration which continues to this day in various aspects of human exploration.\\n\\n So there have been a lot of people that have been important in that process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good foundation of friends and colleagues, it sounds like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, there are a very large number of people that you interact with in one way or another. I've been in innumerable committees, and the faces tend to change from committee to committee, so there are literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that you interact with in some way in doing this kind of work. So that keeps adding some interest as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good group that continues to grow, like with the university students that you mentioned."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.212823925642901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Well, going back, Jack Schmitt. Lee [Leon T.] Silver had a lot of impact. Gerry Wasserberg, sort of a love-hate relationship. He was always a very stressful person to work with, but he was always insightful and a very strong supporter of the program. I learned a heck of a lot from him. Aaron Cohen was obviously important personally and professionally. Paul Gast and Larry Haskin were both key people.\\n\\n I've learned a lot and benefited from a lot of scientific colleagues, including Wendell Mendell and a whole bunch of people in the Solar System—they call it—I don't remember what they call it now. Science and Solar System Exploration Division at JSC. Another person who has been a friend and a colleague since 1984 is Paul [W.] Keaton, who was at the Los Alamos Laboratory. We formed a collaboration which continues to this day in various aspects of human exploration.\\n\\n So there have been a lot of people that have been important in that process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good foundation of friends and colleagues, it sounds like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, there are a very large number of people that you interact with in one way or another. I've been in innumerable committees, and the faces tend to change from committee to committee, so there are literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that you interact with in some way in doing this kind of work. So that keeps adding some interest as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good group that continues to grow, like with the university students that you mentioned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting young people in is the really important thing, because some of us are getting a little older. That's why you're doing, I guess, this history."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you have a lot of valuable information."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.125359917381001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, there are a very large number of people that you interact with in one way or another. I've been in innumerable committees, and the faces tend to change from committee to committee, so there are literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that you interact with in some way in doing this kind of work. So that keeps adding some interest as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good group that continues to grow, like with the university students that you mentioned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting young people in is the really important thing, because some of us are getting a little older. That's why you're doing, I guess, this history."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you have a lot of valuable information."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While you still have me around. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully you'll still be around for quite a few years yet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.139288797090002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting young people in is the really important thing, because some of us are getting a little older. That's why you're doing, I guess, this history."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you have a lot of valuable information."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While you still have me around. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully you'll still be around for quite a few years yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I expect so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with working in the space field, what did you consider your biggest challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.154765330100002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While you still have me around. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully you'll still be around for quite a few years yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I expect so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with working in the space field, what did you consider your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess there have been several different kinds. The challenge during the Apollo Program was both a technical and an organizational challenge, and putting that together and holding that together was not traumatic, but stressful. So that was probably the biggest.\\n\\n The period of time from 1976 to 1980, '81, was also pretty challenging, in that the environment within NASA for holding together a group of scientists at JSC was not very good, and there was a lot of stress involved with that. Then just getting people back into space beyond low earth orbit is a real challenge. I don't know how to do it, but I keep thinking about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully thinking about it enough and doing various things will help make it happen."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.283072589000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I expect so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with working in the space field, what did you consider your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess there have been several different kinds. The challenge during the Apollo Program was both a technical and an organizational challenge, and putting that together and holding that together was not traumatic, but stressful. So that was probably the biggest.\\n\\n The period of time from 1976 to 1980, '81, was also pretty challenging, in that the environment within NASA for holding together a group of scientists at JSC was not very good, and there was a lot of stress involved with that. Then just getting people back into space beyond low earth orbit is a real challenge. I don't know how to do it, but I keep thinking about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully thinking about it enough and doing various things will help make it happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, keep talking about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would there be anything that you would consider your most significant accomplishment or achievement?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.951490000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To this date I can't explain to you how that happened, actually. I don't remember enough of the details of how we spread the word and got people to participate, but in the end we had some really excellent people who were willing to spend their time.\\n\\n We had at that meeting the last talk ever given by Krafft [A.] Ehricke. Krafft Ehricke was one of the giants of space exploration and had for a number of years been writing and giving talks on the subject of lunar development. When we first organized the conference, we decided that we wanted to have him participate, so I contacted him and he said, \"Well, I'd really like to participate, but I have leukemia and I'm undertaking treatment for leukemia.\" A couple of weeks later he called me back and said, \"I really want to participate. I've scheduled my chemotherapy so that I will be in good shape for that day.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he died about a month after the conference. That was really special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Special for him and for the conference participants."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me it was special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. It's great that you were able to give him that opportunity."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.946100000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he died about a month after the conference. That was really special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Special for him and for the conference participants."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me it was special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. It's great that you were able to give him that opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, gives me goosebumps to think about it now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Me, too. [Pauses] Looking back, would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.829, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me it was special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good. It's great that you were able to give him that opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, gives me goosebumps to think about it now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Me, too. [Pauses] Looking back, would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. No way. I mean, depending on where it was, I couldn't have predicted at any point. I went to college to do something else different than I decided to do. Everything was changed by Sputnik and the Apollo speech that was given by Kennedy. There was no way of predicting. I think that, by and large, I've pretty much taken the path of least resistance in all of this. It was more or less obvious at every stage what was reasonable to do in the context of what I was able to do and what was interesting. So I don't claim to have any particular great insights into where things should go, but most of what I have done seems to have been reasonably useful. So I'm pleased about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You definitely have accomplished a lot in your career and have a lot to be pleased about."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00149:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 9.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, gives me goosebumps to think about it now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Me, too. [Pauses] Looking back, would you ever have imagined where your career would lead you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. No way. I mean, depending on where it was, I couldn't have predicted at any point. I went to college to do something else different than I decided to do. Everything was changed by Sputnik and the Apollo speech that was given by Kennedy. There was no way of predicting. I think that, by and large, I've pretty much taken the path of least resistance in all of this. It was more or less obvious at every stage what was reasonable to do in the context of what I was able to do and what was interesting. So I don't claim to have any particular great insights into where things should go, but most of what I have done seems to have been reasonably useful. So I'm pleased about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You definitely have accomplished a lot in your career and have a lot to be pleased about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close today, I'd like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they have any questions.\n\nI do have two. First of all, how would you characterize the relationship between yourself as lunar curator and the overall manager of the LRL?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 32.73241544293337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know if it was fear. There was a lot of uncertainty. We could pretty reliably predict what orbit it would enter on, and we could change in the attitude of Skylab and change how much drag it had, so they were pretty sure they could predict the Orbiter and maybe even the half orbit. So as we got closer, it looked pretty confident that it would be somewhere where it’s mostly ocean, so we thought it would come in short of Australia, would have been ideal. As it is, we hit some—I don’t know if we ever caused any damage there, but there was some fairly big tank structures that ended up in Australia. I guess there wasn’t a big concern, though. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember NASA getting fined for littering? Do you remember that event?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just thought I would ask. We’ve had some recent requests about that, and there were a lot of people who want to know why didn’t NASA pay the fine. They were just fined in jest.\\n\\n I’m curious about your time on console. You had worked in the Navy for so long. Was this the first time that you had worked with women? Some of the people we’ve talked to from various classes had worked in the military for so long, that they hadn’t had that opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. Professionally that’s probably true. I never thought of it. But, yes, in fact, because in those days the Navy, women were in the Navy, but weren’t on ships. So that’s true, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there a lot of women who were working on the Flight Control Teams at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.702683825481525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just thought I would ask. We’ve had some recent requests about that, and there were a lot of people who want to know why didn’t NASA pay the fine. They were just fined in jest.\\n\\n I’m curious about your time on console. You had worked in the Navy for so long. Was this the first time that you had worked with women? Some of the people we’ve talked to from various classes had worked in the military for so long, that they hadn’t had that opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. Professionally that’s probably true. I never thought of it. But, yes, in fact, because in those days the Navy, women were in the Navy, but weren’t on ships. So that’s true, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there a lot of women who were working on the Flight Control Teams at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not as many as now, but a fair number. Bonnie, of course. Michelle [A.] Brekke was one of the first selected to be Flight Director in that time frame, or a little after that. … Linda Ham. Short, blonde. She was in Propulsion, a very sharp gal, obviously in those days too. … So, not as many as now. The engineering schools weren’t putting out as many women then as they do now, but a fair number. It wasn’t a big issue; it was just part of the business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was it like making that transition from the military to a civilian world?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 30.780759806090582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. Professionally that’s probably true. I never thought of it. But, yes, in fact, because in those days the Navy, women were in the Navy, but weren’t on ships. So that’s true, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there a lot of women who were working on the Flight Control Teams at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not as many as now, but a fair number. Bonnie, of course. Michelle [A.] Brekke was one of the first selected to be Flight Director in that time frame, or a little after that. … Linda Ham. Short, blonde. She was in Propulsion, a very sharp gal, obviously in those days too. … So, not as many as now. The engineering schools weren’t putting out as many women then as they do now, but a fair number. It wasn’t a big issue; it was just part of the business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was it like making that transition from the military to a civilian world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, not a big deal. NASA felt kind of like a military organization, very strong lines of command. At least that was our attitude, those of us who came from the military. We viewed John [W.] Young as assistant God, and George was God, you know. That was it. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your schedule like when you were working in Payload Operations and then when you were working Flight Control?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.756399784545092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not as many as now, but a fair number. Bonnie, of course. Michelle [A.] Brekke was one of the first selected to be Flight Director in that time frame, or a little after that. … Linda Ham. Short, blonde. She was in Propulsion, a very sharp gal, obviously in those days too. … So, not as many as now. The engineering schools weren’t putting out as many women then as they do now, but a fair number. It wasn’t a big issue; it was just part of the business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was it like making that transition from the military to a civilian world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, not a big deal. NASA felt kind of like a military organization, very strong lines of command. At least that was our attitude, those of us who came from the military. We viewed John [W.] Young as assistant God, and George was God, you know. That was it. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your schedule like when you were working in Payload Operations and then when you were working Flight Control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were just doing simulations. I was hired as an astronaut and joined the corps before we flew STS-1, so this was early simulation days, so it wasn’t extremely stressful and difficult. Eight to five, seven-thirty to five-thirty kind of job. Not much travel in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys have a Skylab Splatdown party?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.8404442050501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, not a big deal. NASA felt kind of like a military organization, very strong lines of command. At least that was our attitude, those of us who came from the military. We viewed John [W.] Young as assistant God, and George was God, you know. That was it. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your schedule like when you were working in Payload Operations and then when you were working Flight Control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were just doing simulations. I was hired as an astronaut and joined the corps before we flew STS-1, so this was early simulation days, so it wasn’t extremely stressful and difficult. Eight to five, seven-thirty to five-thirty kind of job. Not much travel in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys have a Skylab Splatdown party?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I’m sure there was, yes. In fact, my daughter still wears a Skylab Splatdown t-shirt. I think it’s her favorite t-shirt. She’s twenty-four, right? I think it’s her pajamas. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s amazing it’s still holding up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.26716022783344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were just doing simulations. I was hired as an astronaut and joined the corps before we flew STS-1, so this was early simulation days, so it wasn’t extremely stressful and difficult. Eight to five, seven-thirty to five-thirty kind of job. Not much travel in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys have a Skylab Splatdown party?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I’m sure there was, yes. In fact, my daughter still wears a Skylab Splatdown t-shirt. I think it’s her favorite t-shirt. She’s twenty-four, right? I think it’s her pajamas. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s amazing it’s still holding up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably has quite a few holes in it.\\n\\n I also read that you were the lead engineer for Shuttle launched satellites. Anything you want to say about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 38.07462247537049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I’m sure there was, yes. In fact, my daughter still wears a Skylab Splatdown t-shirt. I think it’s her favorite t-shirt. She’s twenty-four, right? I think it’s her pajamas. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s amazing it’s still holding up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably has quite a few holes in it.\\n\\n I also read that you were the lead engineer for Shuttle launched satellites. Anything you want to say about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was the satellites that went on the McDonnell Douglas PAM booster. That was that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about applying for the 1980 class of astronauts. Had it differed at all from the ’78 application process?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.74958052818943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably has quite a few holes in it.\\n\\n I also read that you were the lead engineer for Shuttle launched satellites. Anything you want to say about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was the satellites that went on the McDonnell Douglas PAM booster. That was that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about applying for the 1980 class of astronauts. Had it differed at all from the ’78 application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, essentially the same process, just kind of update the package and send it in. So that was done in the spring, I think, of ’80 and interviews in the June time frame, and selection around July or August, as I recall. Interview process was very similar. Saw a lot of the same people that I’d seen before, or recognized the names.\\n\\n So that was a very stressful time, actually. I spent a lot of time thinking, “Well, if I don’t get selected, am going to stay here and make supporting from the ground my career?” I’m not sure I’d worked through all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you got that phone call from George Abbey, what was that like?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 40.83286725354381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was the satellites that went on the McDonnell Douglas PAM booster. That was that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about applying for the 1980 class of astronauts. Had it differed at all from the ’78 application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, essentially the same process, just kind of update the package and send it in. So that was done in the spring, I think, of ’80 and interviews in the June time frame, and selection around July or August, as I recall. Interview process was very similar. Saw a lot of the same people that I’d seen before, or recognized the names.\\n\\n So that was a very stressful time, actually. I spent a lot of time thinking, “Well, if I don’t get selected, am going to stay here and make supporting from the ground my career?” I’m not sure I’d worked through all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you got that phone call from George Abbey, what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was good. Actually, I had some indications that I was pretty close, so it wasn’t a total surprise, but it was a huge relief, and obviously the largest single career-shaping event of my life, that call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you and Bonnie and Jerry sort of comparing, seeing if someone got a phone call?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 43.147630281715344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, essentially the same process, just kind of update the package and send it in. So that was done in the spring, I think, of ’80 and interviews in the June time frame, and selection around July or August, as I recall. Interview process was very similar. Saw a lot of the same people that I’d seen before, or recognized the names.\\n\\n So that was a very stressful time, actually. I spent a lot of time thinking, “Well, if I don’t get selected, am going to stay here and make supporting from the ground my career?” I’m not sure I’d worked through all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you got that phone call from George Abbey, what was that like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was good. Actually, I had some indications that I was pretty close, so it wasn’t a total surprise, but it was a huge relief, and obviously the largest single career-shaping event of my life, that call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you and Bonnie and Jerry sort of comparing, seeing if someone got a phone call?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our offices were within shouting distance, so you could hear the shouts. I think everyone was there that morning. I couldn’t tell you who got the first call. But the party that night was at my house, of everyone that called in the Houston area, and there were probably, I don’t know, seems like five or six, and then a lot of the ’78 class showed up at the party that night, so that was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great. So why don’t you tell us about that first day as you’re walking into the Astronaut Office and you’ve got this new class of—Dave [David C.] Leestma said you guys called yourselves “the Needless Nineteen.” What did the rest of the astronauts think? We hadn’t flown the Space Shuttle yet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.75640617405094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a week, probably. But it was really a full-time job at the Cape. We would typically fly down on a Monday night or Tuesday morning and fly back Friday."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you doing that much further in advance of a flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, starting probably the first of January of ’81. Is that right? Do I have the years right? Yes. When did we fly? We flew in April."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In April."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So I was there for that. I was there for STS-2 in November. I was at White Sands [Missile Range, White Sands, New Mexico] in Ground Recovery Team for STS-3, and Jack [R.] Lousma landing in the gypsum dust storm. Don [Donald E.] Williams and I were the exchange crew, so we went in and relived Jack and Gordo [C. Gordon Fullerton] after they landed, and rode\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n on into where they parked it, did all those things. That was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds like fun.\\n\\n Where did you guys stay when you were down at the Cape?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 24.173784637834377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, starting probably the first of January of ’81. Is that right? Do I have the years right? Yes. When did we fly? We flew in April."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In April."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So I was there for that. I was there for STS-2 in November. I was at White Sands [Missile Range, White Sands, New Mexico] in Ground Recovery Team for STS-3, and Jack [R.] Lousma landing in the gypsum dust storm. Don [Donald E.] Williams and I were the exchange crew, so we went in and relived Jack and Gordo [C. Gordon Fullerton] after they landed, and rode\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n on into where they parked it, did all those things. That was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds like fun.\\n\\n Where did you guys stay when you were down at the Cape?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer, who was sort of the team lead down there, had bought a condo, three-bedroom condo, and he would rent out rooms. That was one place. What were some of the other places? That was the one we stayed at mostly in my time frame."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were some of the other people besides Overmyer who were working on this project?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.193094042038197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So I was there for that. I was there for STS-2 in November. I was at White Sands [Missile Range, White Sands, New Mexico] in Ground Recovery Team for STS-3, and Jack [R.] Lousma landing in the gypsum dust storm. Don [Donald E.] Williams and I were the exchange crew, so we went in and relived Jack and Gordo [C. Gordon Fullerton] after they landed, and rode\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n on into where they parked it, did all those things. That was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds like fun.\\n\\n Where did you guys stay when you were down at the Cape?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer, who was sort of the team lead down there, had bought a condo, three-bedroom condo, and he would rent out rooms. That was one place. What were some of the other places? That was the one we stayed at mostly in my time frame."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were some of the other people besides Overmyer who were working on this project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ellison [S.] Onizuka, Bo [Karol J.] Bobko was down there; Don Williams; “Ox” [James D.A. van Hoften] was down there; Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan. I think that was my era."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think your career with the Navy helped you in this first on-the-job training assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 22.436771157820218, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer, who was sort of the team lead down there, had bought a condo, three-bedroom condo, and he would rent out rooms. That was one place. What were some of the other places? That was the one we stayed at mostly in my time frame."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were some of the other people besides Overmyer who were working on this project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ellison [S.] Onizuka, Bo [Karol J.] Bobko was down there; Don Williams; “Ox” [James D.A. van Hoften] was down there; Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan. I think that was my era."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think your career with the Navy helped you in this first on-the-job training assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Being familiar and comfortable around complicated systems helps. I wasn’t intimidated by it. Well, that’s not exactly true. The first time we went down to the Cape on our class tour, my reaction when seeing the pad, at seeing the Orbiter and all that is, “My God, this stuff’s too big. It can’t possibly fly.” [laughs] I think that’s a common reaction. I knew how big it was, but it’s different when you actually see it and you’re walking underneath the Orbiter and all this stuff. But having gotten over that, it was kind of fun to be there with the hardware. Everyone enjoys hardware over simulations and paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a point in the astronaut corps where you were talking about, “Is this thing ever going to fly?” You’d been in the office for a while, the ’78 class had been selected."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.707523508689132, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ellison [S.] Onizuka, Bo [Karol J.] Bobko was down there; Don Williams; “Ox” [James D.A. van Hoften] was down there; Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan. I think that was my era."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think your career with the Navy helped you in this first on-the-job training assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Being familiar and comfortable around complicated systems helps. I wasn’t intimidated by it. Well, that’s not exactly true. The first time we went down to the Cape on our class tour, my reaction when seeing the pad, at seeing the Orbiter and all that is, “My God, this stuff’s too big. It can’t possibly fly.” [laughs] I think that’s a common reaction. I knew how big it was, but it’s different when you actually see it and you’re walking underneath the Orbiter and all this stuff. But having gotten over that, it was kind of fun to be there with the hardware. Everyone enjoys hardware over simulations and paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a point in the astronaut corps where you were talking about, “Is this thing ever going to fly?” You’d been in the office for a while, the ’78 class had been selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not so much for us, because we came in and went to work in January, and it flew in April. Of course, the flight rate didn’t pick up as fast as we would like, so there was some of that later. “Don’t fall in love with your payload.” That was the mantra, because in those days it was the policy that the crews flew in order. Seems kind of like a crazy policy now, in retrospect. So if something happened to the payload that was on the flight you were assigned three months before, you learned a new payload and a new mission, rather than slipping with that payload."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s crazy.\\n\\n What impact did the delays for STS-2 have on your position out at the Cape? There were several delays getting that mission off."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.119470565210147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Being familiar and comfortable around complicated systems helps. I wasn’t intimidated by it. Well, that’s not exactly true. The first time we went down to the Cape on our class tour, my reaction when seeing the pad, at seeing the Orbiter and all that is, “My God, this stuff’s too big. It can’t possibly fly.” [laughs] I think that’s a common reaction. I knew how big it was, but it’s different when you actually see it and you’re walking underneath the Orbiter and all this stuff. But having gotten over that, it was kind of fun to be there with the hardware. Everyone enjoys hardware over simulations and paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a point in the astronaut corps where you were talking about, “Is this thing ever going to fly?” You’d been in the office for a while, the ’78 class had been selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not so much for us, because we came in and went to work in January, and it flew in April. Of course, the flight rate didn’t pick up as fast as we would like, so there was some of that later. “Don’t fall in love with your payload.” That was the mantra, because in those days it was the policy that the crews flew in order. Seems kind of like a crazy policy now, in retrospect. So if something happened to the payload that was on the flight you were assigned three months before, you learned a new payload and a new mission, rather than slipping with that payload."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s crazy.\\n\\n What impact did the delays for STS-2 have on your position out at the Cape? There were several delays getting that mission off."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I was pretty sick in that time frame. I had a case of mononucleosis and missed, oh, I don’t know, six weeks of work in that time frame. That’s mainly what I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "STS-3, you mentioned you were out at White Sands."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 26.799411739122384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not so much for us, because we came in and went to work in January, and it flew in April. Of course, the flight rate didn’t pick up as fast as we would like, so there was some of that later. “Don’t fall in love with your payload.” That was the mantra, because in those days it was the policy that the crews flew in order. Seems kind of like a crazy policy now, in retrospect. So if something happened to the payload that was on the flight you were assigned three months before, you learned a new payload and a new mission, rather than slipping with that payload."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s crazy.\\n\\n What impact did the delays for STS-2 have on your position out at the Cape? There were several delays getting that mission off."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I was pretty sick in that time frame. I had a case of mononucleosis and missed, oh, I don’t know, six weeks of work in that time frame. That’s mainly what I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "STS-3, you mentioned you were out at White Sands."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that landing? Were you there for the first few days when they were talking about landing out there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.44371819644739, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that landing? Were you there for the first few days when they were talking about landing out there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were. It was pretty clear they were going to have to land at White Sands because of the rains in California, and either one day or two days before the landing, we were out doing a practice convoy, so the convoy, it’s I don’t know, ten vehicles or something like that, and there’s a dust storm you wouldn’t believe. We were stuck out there with zero visibility, kind of leaning over at about a 45-degree angle from the wind, and I’m thinking, “And they’re going to land an Orbiter here tomorrow?” [laughs] It was hard to believe. In fact, it cleared up the next day and it was a nice clear day, although I’m told that many years later, picking up pieces from East Texas of\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n , they were finding gypsum from White Sands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of that stuff got in there and never got out. I don’t know if that’s true, but possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. I know that, what was it, last year they were talking about landing the Orbiter in New Mexico. I thought that would be a sight to see."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.159686884941543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were. It was pretty clear they were going to have to land at White Sands because of the rains in California, and either one day or two days before the landing, we were out doing a practice convoy, so the convoy, it’s I don’t know, ten vehicles or something like that, and there’s a dust storm you wouldn’t believe. We were stuck out there with zero visibility, kind of leaning over at about a 45-degree angle from the wind, and I’m thinking, “And they’re going to land an Orbiter here tomorrow?” [laughs] It was hard to believe. In fact, it cleared up the next day and it was a nice clear day, although I’m told that many years later, picking up pieces from East Texas of\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n , they were finding gypsum from White Sands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of that stuff got in there and never got out. I don’t know if that’s true, but possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. I know that, what was it, last year they were talking about landing the Orbiter in New Mexico. I thought that would be a sight to see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it’s beautiful out there with the white sand.\\n\\n What was it like? Were there a lot of people out there to greet the crew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 30.17742987215727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of that stuff got in there and never got out. I don’t know if that’s true, but possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. I know that, what was it, last year they were talking about landing the Orbiter in New Mexico. I thought that would be a sight to see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it’s beautiful out there with the white sand.\\n\\n What was it like? Were there a lot of people out there to greet the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. It’s kind of a hard place to get to and not designed for public viewing. I don’t really know how many were really there, because I was inside the Orbiter most of the time. But, no, it was kind of a remote operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your biosheet also says that you specialized in the Orbiter computer system."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.086033191285853, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it’s beautiful out there with the white sand.\\n\\n What was it like? Were there a lot of people out there to greet the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. It’s kind of a hard place to get to and not designed for public viewing. I don’t really know how many were really there, because I was inside the Orbiter most of the time. But, no, it was kind of a remote operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your biosheet also says that you specialized in the Orbiter computer system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my job after my stint as a Cape Crusader was, I was the astronaut representative to the Orbiter Software Control Board, or actually it was the Avionics Software Control Board. So I relieved David Leestma of that job; he had it, then I had it. I think Dale [A.] Gardner had it before him. So I guess Navy Mission Specialists were kind of on that track. But that was a fascinating job because I got to really understand how the Orbiter worked. It’s a software-driven machine. So we were involved in all the discussions about should we do this change or that change, and what’s the risk of doing the change versus the benefit. So that was a very rewarding job. I liked that a lot. Taught me a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you work in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory] or FSL [Flight Systems Laboratory] at Downey [California]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 32.31781465698428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. It’s kind of a hard place to get to and not designed for public viewing. I don’t really know how many were really there, because I was inside the Orbiter most of the time. But, no, it was kind of a remote operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your biosheet also says that you specialized in the Orbiter computer system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my job after my stint as a Cape Crusader was, I was the astronaut representative to the Orbiter Software Control Board, or actually it was the Avionics Software Control Board. So I relieved David Leestma of that job; he had it, then I had it. I think Dale [A.] Gardner had it before him. So I guess Navy Mission Specialists were kind of on that track. But that was a fascinating job because I got to really understand how the Orbiter worked. It’s a software-driven machine. So we were involved in all the discussions about should we do this change or that change, and what’s the risk of doing the change versus the benefit. So that was a very rewarding job. I liked that a lot. Taught me a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you work in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory] or FSL [Flight Systems Laboratory] at Downey [California]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "SAIL more than FSL. In that time frame I think FSL was on its way out by then. We didn’t have much to do with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there other astronauts assigned to this task while you were working assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.79757184109365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my job after my stint as a Cape Crusader was, I was the astronaut representative to the Orbiter Software Control Board, or actually it was the Avionics Software Control Board. So I relieved David Leestma of that job; he had it, then I had it. I think Dale [A.] Gardner had it before him. So I guess Navy Mission Specialists were kind of on that track. But that was a fascinating job because I got to really understand how the Orbiter worked. It’s a software-driven machine. So we were involved in all the discussions about should we do this change or that change, and what’s the risk of doing the change versus the benefit. So that was a very rewarding job. I liked that a lot. Taught me a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you work in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory] or FSL [Flight Systems Laboratory] at Downey [California]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "SAIL more than FSL. In that time frame I think FSL was on its way out by then. We didn’t have much to do with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there other astronauts assigned to this task while you were working assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that specific job of being the representative to the Control Board was a one-person job. We had, I don’t know, three or four assigned to SAIL, but that was a little different job, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other duties before your first flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 38.66396871232627, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "SAIL more than FSL. In that time frame I think FSL was on its way out by then. We didn’t have much to do with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there other astronauts assigned to this task while you were working assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that specific job of being the representative to the Control Board was a one-person job. We had, I don’t know, three or four assigned to SAIL, but that was a little different job, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other duties before your first flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. I think I went from that assignment to that flight crew assignment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about how you found out you were selected for your first flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.84885412480697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that specific job of being the representative to the Control Board was a one-person job. We had, I don’t know, three or four assigned to SAIL, but that was a little different job, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other duties before your first flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. I think I went from that assignment to that flight crew assignment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about how you found out you were selected for your first flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was on vacation. I had never taken a two-week vacation, so I pressed and pressed and got all the work done and flew—we had a little airplane then. Flew to Colorado, my home town, and then I came down with walking pneumonia when we arrived and finally checked myself into the hospital and was there for a week. I think that’s when I got the call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not such great circumstances, huh?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 46.49872680534108, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. I think I went from that assignment to that flight crew assignment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about how you found out you were selected for your first flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was on vacation. I had never taken a two-week vacation, so I pressed and pressed and got all the work done and flew—we had a little airplane then. Flew to Colorado, my home town, and then I came down with walking pneumonia when we arrived and finally checked myself into the hospital and was there for a week. I think that’s when I got the call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not such great circumstances, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were obviously pretty happy, though, that had been selected."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 49.443029783712305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was on vacation. I had never taken a two-week vacation, so I pressed and pressed and got all the work done and flew—we had a little airplane then. Flew to Colorado, my home town, and then I came down with walking pneumonia when we arrived and finally checked myself into the hospital and was there for a week. I think that’s when I got the call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not such great circumstances, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were obviously pretty happy, though, that had been selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was great. Didn’t see that coming. To be on Joe Henry Engle’s crew, which was great, Dick [Richard O.] Covey as the pilot, and a great crew besides that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship? You had worked with Joe Engle."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 41.603366426347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were obviously pretty happy, though, that had been selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was great. Didn’t see that coming. To be on Joe Henry Engle’s crew, which was great, Dick [Richard O.] Covey as the pilot, and a great crew besides that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship? You had worked with Joe Engle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Worked with Joe at the Cape. Ox a little bit at the Cape, Ox van Hoften. Bill [William F.] Fisher was in my class. Hadn’t worked with him before, but knew him well. And me. So, very, I guess by some standards, a small crew and obviously stale, pale, and male. But we had a great time. The training was fun for that mission. It was great mission. Turned out to be greater than we had originally planned. I don’t remember our original payload. Our original payload was a TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite], must have been, because I remember going to Seattle [Washington] for a technical meeting, and there was another crew that also had a very similar payload, and Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck was commander of that. We had a race to get to Seattle from Houston, and we beat them. That was a big deal. We thought about taking off the travel pod on the T-38 to see if we could go faster and do without our clothes, because winning was important. I think we finally decided we didn’t need to do that, but we were prepared to drop our travel pods in El Paso [Texas] so we could make it one leg from El Paso to Seattle. Instead, we had to do El Paso to Las Vegas [Nevada] to Seattle. [laughs] That was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now I understand from Dick Covey and from Ox van Hoften that you basically came up with this plan to go save an ailing satellite, you and Ox, when you were working in the Reserves. Can you tell me your recollection of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 39.84966685923944, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was naïve then. I didn’t know how hard the bureaucracy was. Today it would just astonish me that that would happen. But, no. Actually, we had a pretty narrow view of how NASA worked, I think, as crewmen back then. I didn’t appreciate the big contractor team that was necessary to make all this work. I knew who built what, of course, but we really didn’t have the—today the Internet and\\n\\n Space News\\n\\n and just the whole culture is one of much more data sharing, and you know what’s going on, you know what the problems are. Back then, you didn’t know what the problems were until they bubbled up to kind of the flight-readiness level, maybe a little bit before, but I think that’s different today. And I wish we’d had a little more knowledge back then, or maybe not. Maybe we would have worried a lot more than we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did doing things sort of on the fly impact the training for this mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of the things we couldn’t train, especially that kind of mission. Actually, that made training more fun, because there was less rote learning. You had to train for skills and not for tasks, because you weren’t sure how it would go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your crew come up with any sort of tools to see that the mission would succeed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We built special handling tools and we were involved in the design of those, and they built them all on site in Building 9. So, a handling bar that was attached to the satellite. The satellite was the size of a Cadillac Escalade, probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s pretty big."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 40.94407428804382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of the things we couldn’t train, especially that kind of mission. Actually, that made training more fun, because there was less rote learning. You had to train for skills and not for tasks, because you weren’t sure how it would go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your crew come up with any sort of tools to see that the mission would succeed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We built special handling tools and we were involved in the design of those, and they built them all on site in Building 9. So, a handling bar that was attached to the satellite. The satellite was the size of a Cadillac Escalade, probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s pretty big."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Weighed about—well, maybe even heavier, probably heavier. Weighed about, I don’t know, ten thousand pounds, five tons, something like that. It’s pretty big. So we designed a bar that would be attached. I guess that was the main mechanism. There was a grapple fixture that Ox had to connect so I could grab it with the arm. Then there was essentially a computer package that was bolted on—I don’t know how we attached it—that was essentially the way we bypassed the failed circuitry inside. There was a radio receiver that was put down by the rocket motor to ignite the rocket motor after we were safely away. They did that by ground command. So those were some of the pieces that we had to deal with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The launch of this mission was scrubbed a few times."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 44.382304764493135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We built special handling tools and we were involved in the design of those, and they built them all on site in Building 9. So, a handling bar that was attached to the satellite. The satellite was the size of a Cadillac Escalade, probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s pretty big."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Weighed about—well, maybe even heavier, probably heavier. Weighed about, I don’t know, ten thousand pounds, five tons, something like that. It’s pretty big. So we designed a bar that would be attached. I guess that was the main mechanism. There was a grapple fixture that Ox had to connect so I could grab it with the arm. Then there was essentially a computer package that was bolted on—I don’t know how we attached it—that was essentially the way we bypassed the failed circuitry inside. There was a radio receiver that was put down by the rocket motor to ignite the rocket motor after we were safely away. They did that by ground command. So those were some of the pieces that we had to deal with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The launch of this mission was scrubbed a few times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three. Two. Well, scrubbed twice. We flew the third time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you guys do to pass the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.463310267102145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, probably not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were talking about launch. So I described this first launch as it seemed to take forever. My second launch was the first flight after the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident, with Rick Hauck and crew. That flight had taken so long to finally get ready and go through all the extra certification steps and everything, although we didn’t have any launch delays. We only suited up once. I think we stayed on the pad for an extra thirty minutes or so for upper-level winds. But that launch happened very quickly. Just everything flew by. That seemed to take four minutes. I don’t know why, it just did.\\n\\n Then my last launch, on\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n , was just like being in a simulator. That was a normal eight and a half minutes and things happened like they should. It was all differences in my attitude, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you get acclimated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. STS-26, there had been a lot of scrutiny on that flight, you know. It was about as safe as flying a Shuttle could be. I think we were just so anxious to get gone, it seemed to go faster."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On your first flight, how did you handle issues like sleeping arrangements and when you would eat meals, things like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.73701140789127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were talking about launch. So I described this first launch as it seemed to take forever. My second launch was the first flight after the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident, with Rick Hauck and crew. That flight had taken so long to finally get ready and go through all the extra certification steps and everything, although we didn’t have any launch delays. We only suited up once. I think we stayed on the pad for an extra thirty minutes or so for upper-level winds. But that launch happened very quickly. Just everything flew by. That seemed to take four minutes. I don’t know why, it just did.\\n\\n Then my last launch, on\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n , was just like being in a simulator. That was a normal eight and a half minutes and things happened like they should. It was all differences in my attitude, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you get acclimated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. STS-26, there had been a lot of scrutiny on that flight, you know. It was about as safe as flying a Shuttle could be. I think we were just so anxious to get gone, it seemed to go faster."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On your first flight, how did you handle issues like sleeping arrangements and when you would eat meals, things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first flight, I don’t remember having any strong meal discipline; you ate when you were hungry, fixed your own thing. Slept where you wanted to. In fact, if you go over to the Visitors Center and go to the mockup of the Shuttle middeck, there’s on the wall a picture, a poster, of one of the astronaut sleeping bags. It’s strapped up to the wall, because that’s where they were launched. You’re supposed to unstrap them and get them out and get in them. I just got behind it, because I liked the feeling of that pushing me against the wall. So if you go over there you’ll see this hand [gestures], that’s all you see, and it’s that hand. So that’s where I slept on that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll have to check it out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.263346008768078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. STS-26, there had been a lot of scrutiny on that flight, you know. It was about as safe as flying a Shuttle could be. I think we were just so anxious to get gone, it seemed to go faster."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On your first flight, how did you handle issues like sleeping arrangements and when you would eat meals, things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first flight, I don’t remember having any strong meal discipline; you ate when you were hungry, fixed your own thing. Slept where you wanted to. In fact, if you go over to the Visitors Center and go to the mockup of the Shuttle middeck, there’s on the wall a picture, a poster, of one of the astronaut sleeping bags. It’s strapped up to the wall, because that’s where they were launched. You’re supposed to unstrap them and get them out and get in them. I just got behind it, because I liked the feeling of that pushing me against the wall. So if you go over there you’ll see this hand [gestures], that’s all you see, and it’s that hand. So that’s where I slept on that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll have to check it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s easy to take naps, because you just relax and you float around, but the trouble is you end up with your head next to the toilet or, worse, next to the teletype. That was before e-mail, so we had this very noisy teletype thing to get our flight plan changes, and that would wake you up if you were too close to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you guys got to take Walkmans up and take music with you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 28.070384454186755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first flight, I don’t remember having any strong meal discipline; you ate when you were hungry, fixed your own thing. Slept where you wanted to. In fact, if you go over to the Visitors Center and go to the mockup of the Shuttle middeck, there’s on the wall a picture, a poster, of one of the astronaut sleeping bags. It’s strapped up to the wall, because that’s where they were launched. You’re supposed to unstrap them and get them out and get in them. I just got behind it, because I liked the feeling of that pushing me against the wall. So if you go over there you’ll see this hand [gestures], that’s all you see, and it’s that hand. So that’s where I slept on that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll have to check it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s easy to take naps, because you just relax and you float around, but the trouble is you end up with your head next to the toilet or, worse, next to the teletype. That was before e-mail, so we had this very noisy teletype thing to get our flight plan changes, and that would wake you up if you were too close to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you guys got to take Walkmans up and take music with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any special music that you took with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.7412153755392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any special music that you took with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I guess you know that I’m a big country music fan, and specifically Willie Nelson fan. I don’t know who arranged this, can’t remember, but we used to have wake-up music—oh, you asked the Walkman question. So I had a nice selection of country music, a lot of Willie Nelson. But the cool thing about that was we used to have wake-up music that was picked out by the CapCom, the Capsule Communicator, in the Flight Control Team, and it was kind of tuned to the crew’s interests, so on the second or third day of that mission, the wake-up music was Willie Nelson and the Geezinslaw Brothers singing about—and I can’t remember the song; I’ve got it somewhere. But it was about our mission. They had written late one night. I don’t know what the connection was that got them to do that, but it was done on kind of short notice and they had to get it over to Mission Control in a hurry, so we had somebody from Mission Control go to Hobby Airport and pick it up from the runner that they had bring it over. This won’t mean anything to you, perhaps, but the runner was named Earl Campbell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Earl was All-American running back and star of the Oilers in that time frame. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s kind of cool."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.712461528376885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I guess you know that I’m a big country music fan, and specifically Willie Nelson fan. I don’t know who arranged this, can’t remember, but we used to have wake-up music—oh, you asked the Walkman question. So I had a nice selection of country music, a lot of Willie Nelson. But the cool thing about that was we used to have wake-up music that was picked out by the CapCom, the Capsule Communicator, in the Flight Control Team, and it was kind of tuned to the crew’s interests, so on the second or third day of that mission, the wake-up music was Willie Nelson and the Geezinslaw Brothers singing about—and I can’t remember the song; I’ve got it somewhere. But it was about our mission. They had written late one night. I don’t know what the connection was that got them to do that, but it was done on kind of short notice and they had to get it over to Mission Control in a hurry, so we had somebody from Mission Control go to Hobby Airport and pick it up from the runner that they had bring it over. This won’t mean anything to you, perhaps, but the runner was named Earl Campbell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Earl was All-American running back and star of the Oilers in that time frame. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s kind of cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your CapCom for the flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 18.56940169819654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Earl was All-American running back and star of the Oilers in that time frame. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s kind of cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your CapCom for the flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Charles] Lacy Veach. I think Leestma. I think David. Those are the two I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they’re the ones in charge of picking the music?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.077112997996155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your CapCom for the flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Charles] Lacy Veach. I think Leestma. I think David. Those are the two I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they’re the ones in charge of picking the music?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t know how they got that to happen, but as a result of that, later, about a year later, Covey and I flew over to—maybe it was a couple of years later, we flew over to Austin [Texas] and played golf with Willie on his golf course. That was a real treat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the astronauts always talk about the people that they got to meet when they were on the crews; the president and football players and things like that. I think Dick Covey went over to California to film\\n\\n Home Improvement\\n\\n ."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.641236664440171, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Charles] Lacy Veach. I think Leestma. I think David. Those are the two I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they’re the ones in charge of picking the music?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t know how they got that to happen, but as a result of that, later, about a year later, Covey and I flew over to—maybe it was a couple of years later, we flew over to Austin [Texas] and played golf with Willie on his golf course. That was a real treat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the astronauts always talk about the people that they got to meet when they were on the crews; the president and football players and things like that. I think Dick Covey went over to California to film\\n\\n Home Improvement\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he did on one of his Hubble flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just kind of interesting, those connections that you would make as a flight crew member.\\n\\n Why don’t you tell me about the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and the role that you played in the recovery."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.712485182711301, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t know how they got that to happen, but as a result of that, later, about a year later, Covey and I flew over to—maybe it was a couple of years later, we flew over to Austin [Texas] and played golf with Willie on his golf course. That was a real treat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the astronauts always talk about the people that they got to meet when they were on the crews; the president and football players and things like that. I think Dick Covey went over to California to film\\n\\n Home Improvement\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he did on one of his Hubble flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just kind of interesting, those connections that you would make as a flight crew member.\\n\\n Why don’t you tell me about the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and the role that you played in the recovery."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was two days of EVA. The first day was rendezvousing with this satellite that had failed, stranded in low Earth orbit. So I’m the robot arm operator and the valet, so Bill Fisher and Jim van Hoften were the EVA crewmen. My job was to get them prepared, make sure that their suits were all functioning properly, get them in the airlock, and then as we approached the satellite, I went upstairs to the flight deck and got the robot arm activated, and then as soon as Ox got outside—Jim van Hoften—he installed a foot platform at the end of the arm, I grabbed it. He got into that and then I maneuvered him up high above the Orbiter as we fly toward this satellite, and then his job was to reach out and grab it, as we had postulated six months earlier in the guard shack out at Ellington. So that was cool. That was surreal, really.\\n\\n Everything didn’t go real smooth on that approach. I don’t know if you’ve talked to Engle, but you’ve talked to Covey, obviously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, talked to—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.225290349026297, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was two days of EVA. The first day was rendezvousing with this satellite that had failed, stranded in low Earth orbit. So I’m the robot arm operator and the valet, so Bill Fisher and Jim van Hoften were the EVA crewmen. My job was to get them prepared, make sure that their suits were all functioning properly, get them in the airlock, and then as we approached the satellite, I went upstairs to the flight deck and got the robot arm activated, and then as soon as Ox got outside—Jim van Hoften—he installed a foot platform at the end of the arm, I grabbed it. He got into that and then I maneuvered him up high above the Orbiter as we fly toward this satellite, and then his job was to reach out and grab it, as we had postulated six months earlier in the guard shack out at Ellington. So that was cool. That was surreal, really.\\n\\n Everything didn’t go real smooth on that approach. I don’t know if you’ve talked to Engle, but you’ve talked to Covey, obviously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, talked to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Ox."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you get Engle yet?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, the only person we haven’t talked to is Fish."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.47254483225144, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Ox."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you get Engle yet?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, the only person we haven’t talked to is Fish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when the Orbiter’s flying in space, it uses these big, really massive control jets. They’re hard to describe. The Orbiter’s too big to actually fly. They spit out a lot of this exhaust when they fire. Coming in, one of those exhaust plumes hit that satellite and got it tumbling, and so now we’re flying up closer, and this thing’s tumbling, and Joe’s instinct is to try to match it, and Covey and I both yelled at him, “No, let Ox do it.” And so we just flew up to it and let Ox—and I say it’s tumbling, but I don’t mean real fast. It isn’t stable. So Ox reached out and grabbed the—it’s really the hard points that were used to attach it to the payload bay when it launched. Managed to grab those and get it slowly damped out and under control. But that was pretty exciting, seeing that thing floating around and wondering if we’d catch it.\\n\\n One of the images I have etched in my brain is the sun is either probably just about to go down, and there’s this satellite and there’s Ox kind of looking at it, and Fish is on the work platform on the payload bay rail, looking at this thing as it sort of tumbles out there, and we’re wondering, what next? Fortunately, or unfortunately, I don’t know, that was the days before we had continuous communication with the ground, so half the orbit you could talk to them and half the orbit you were out of contact, and this was all out of contact from there out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were surprised when you called back and said—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.858383146946045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you get Engle yet?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, the only person we haven’t talked to is Fish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when the Orbiter’s flying in space, it uses these big, really massive control jets. They’re hard to describe. The Orbiter’s too big to actually fly. They spit out a lot of this exhaust when they fire. Coming in, one of those exhaust plumes hit that satellite and got it tumbling, and so now we’re flying up closer, and this thing’s tumbling, and Joe’s instinct is to try to match it, and Covey and I both yelled at him, “No, let Ox do it.” And so we just flew up to it and let Ox—and I say it’s tumbling, but I don’t mean real fast. It isn’t stable. So Ox reached out and grabbed the—it’s really the hard points that were used to attach it to the payload bay when it launched. Managed to grab those and get it slowly damped out and under control. But that was pretty exciting, seeing that thing floating around and wondering if we’d catch it.\\n\\n One of the images I have etched in my brain is the sun is either probably just about to go down, and there’s this satellite and there’s Ox kind of looking at it, and Fish is on the work platform on the payload bay rail, looking at this thing as it sort of tumbles out there, and we’re wondering, what next? Fortunately, or unfortunately, I don’t know, that was the days before we had continuous communication with the ground, so half the orbit you could talk to them and half the orbit you were out of contact, and this was all out of contact from there out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they were surprised when you called back and said—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think by the time we got the thing captured during a loss of signal, so it was all stable, except we had burned a lot of gas. [laughs] More than we were supposed to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The rest of the EVA went well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.63997919376055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think by the time we got the thing captured during a loss of signal, so it was all stable, except we had burned a lot of gas. [laughs] More than we were supposed to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The rest of the EVA went well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I mean, it was slower than probably we had simulated, because the robot arm was a single-joint operation, so we had to be very deliberate about moving the one joint at a time, but we worked out way through that, got it handed down to Fisher, who installed the handling bar and then he held it while Ox put on a grapple fixture. Dropped Ox off and went up and grabbed the satellite, and that was really the high tense part of the mission. Once I had it stable on the end of the arm, then it was going to be okay. So we did about half the work that day and parked it overnight, went out the next day and finished the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the feeling in the crew cabin once the EVA had been completed, and you had finished all of the tasks you’d set out to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. I mean, we were pretty glad. Of course, it was time to get home then. There’s five or six consecutive miracles that have to happen before you get home safely, so we were sort of focused on those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of those tasks that you focused on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.933310215289499, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I mean, it was slower than probably we had simulated, because the robot arm was a single-joint operation, so we had to be very deliberate about moving the one joint at a time, but we worked out way through that, got it handed down to Fisher, who installed the handling bar and then he held it while Ox put on a grapple fixture. Dropped Ox off and went up and grabbed the satellite, and that was really the high tense part of the mission. Once I had it stable on the end of the arm, then it was going to be okay. So we did about half the work that day and parked it overnight, went out the next day and finished the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the feeling in the crew cabin once the EVA had been completed, and you had finished all of the tasks you’d set out to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. I mean, we were pretty glad. Of course, it was time to get home then. There’s five or six consecutive miracles that have to happen before you get home safely, so we were sort of focused on those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of those tasks that you focused on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, getting the cabin all stowed is a big deal, and then just executing all the steps to slow down, get out of orbit, get the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines burning about three minutes. You lose about 1 percent of your velocity. That’s enough to start lowering down and scraping on the top of the atmosphere. Going through that entry was a spectacular thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren’t sitting on the middeck. You were sitting upstairs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.370344683654999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. I mean, we were pretty glad. Of course, it was time to get home then. There’s five or six consecutive miracles that have to happen before you get home safely, so we were sort of focused on those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of those tasks that you focused on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, getting the cabin all stowed is a big deal, and then just executing all the steps to slow down, get out of orbit, get the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines burning about three minutes. You lose about 1 percent of your velocity. That’s enough to start lowering down and scraping on the top of the atmosphere. Going through that entry was a spectacular thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren’t sitting on the middeck. You were sitting upstairs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the middle, upstairs, looking out the window. Ox was right by me, looking out the window. He probably told you that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.967049648505554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, getting the cabin all stowed is a big deal, and then just executing all the steps to slow down, get out of orbit, get the OMS [Orbital Maneuvering System] engines burning about three minutes. You lose about 1 percent of your velocity. That’s enough to start lowering down and scraping on the top of the atmosphere. Going through that entry was a spectacular thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren’t sitting on the middeck. You were sitting upstairs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the middle, upstairs, looking out the window. Ox was right by me, looking out the window. He probably told you that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He said, “Well, I’ll go downstairs in time for landing.” He didn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take any photos of landing, or you just sort of took it all in as you were going down?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.51894405389506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the middle, upstairs, looking out the window. Ox was right by me, looking out the window. He probably told you that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He said, “Well, I’ll go downstairs in time for landing.” He didn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take any photos of landing, or you just sort of took it all in as you were going down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got some photos of the plasma wake, if you will. As we come ripping through the atmosphere at Mach 25, it just shatters the atoms and makes this bright orange plasma trail. You can actually see it from the ground. It’s like an orange glow-in-the-dark kind of chalk drawn across the dark sky that you could see on a nice clear night. So that is just an awesome fireworks show. I got a couple shots of that out the window before we got down too low."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once you finally were on Earth, and you opened up the crew cabin and stepped outside, what are your recollections?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.442987431633988, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for that one. My kids were pretty little then. Kenneth was four and Kathy was not two yet, barely. Almost two. No, one and a half. One and a half."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ready to go right back up? Some of the folks we’ve talked to said they were ready to go the next day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. I had a flight assignment before I landed. A month before we flew or something like that, we got assigned to the Ulysses Centaur flight, which would have flown in May of ’86 on\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . So when we saw\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n explode in January 28th—before that lifted off, I remember thinking, “Well, [Frances R.] Scobee, take care of that spaceship, because we need it in a couple of months.” So we would have been on the next flight of\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any concerns?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we weren’t then, but, yes, I guess we should have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I read someplace that your wife was working at the Johnson Space Center."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.825541590704431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. I had a flight assignment before I landed. A month before we flew or something like that, we got assigned to the Ulysses Centaur flight, which would have flown in May of ’86 on\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . So when we saw\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n explode in January 28th—before that lifted off, I remember thinking, “Well, [Frances R.] Scobee, take care of that spaceship, because we need it in a couple of months.” So we would have been on the next flight of\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any concerns?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we weren’t then, but, yes, I guess we should have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I read someplace that your wife was working at the Johnson Space Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was. She was a flight controller. Now ex."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she have any concerns about you flying on board the Space Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.250601767449368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we weren’t then, but, yes, I guess we should have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I read someplace that your wife was working at the Johnson Space Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was. She was a flight controller. Now ex."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she have any concerns about you flying on board the Space Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don’t know. But she was part of the team, so it was her mission as well as mine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your public relation tours after you came back from your first mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6117797416104085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was. She was a flight controller. Now ex."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she have any concerns about you flying on board the Space Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don’t know. But she was part of the team, so it was her mission as well as mine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your public relation tours after you came back from your first mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most fun one was I went to my little hometown in eastern Colorado and they had Mike Lounge Day, and they had a parade. There were about a hundred floats in the parade. There were more people in the parade than there were in the town. I think they had to take turns watching the parade and being in the parade. That was pretty cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get the key to the city and all that stuff?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.013088601789343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don’t know. But she was part of the team, so it was her mission as well as mine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your public relation tours after you came back from your first mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most fun one was I went to my little hometown in eastern Colorado and they had Mike Lounge Day, and they had a parade. There were about a hundred floats in the parade. There were more people in the parade than there were in the town. I think they had to take turns watching the parade and being in the parade. That was pretty cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get the key to the city and all that stuff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. A street named after me. There are not a lot of streets, but—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big is the city?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.954430372579435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. A street named after me. There are not a lot of streets, but—."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big is the city?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t know. Three thousand people, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds fun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had mentioned that you were assigned to another mission before you flew, which was [STS] 61-F, which was the Centaur mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.504922636199372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t know. Three thousand people, maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds fun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had mentioned that you were assigned to another mission before you flew, which was [STS] 61-F, which was the Centaur mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any discussion amongst the crew that perhaps NASA was putting you at risk, since you were going to be flying a liquid rocket?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.1165807068881906, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had mentioned that you were assigned to another mission before you flew, which was [STS] 61-F, which was the Centaur mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any discussion amongst the crew that perhaps NASA was putting you at risk, since you were going to be flying a liquid rocket?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we were very worried about it. We were involved in all the design reviews, the safety reviews, developing procedures for getting rid of that stage if we had a problem during launch. So that was a big concern, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever approach John Young or George Abbey or Rick Hauck at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.7962007854313224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any discussion amongst the crew that perhaps NASA was putting you at risk, since you were going to be flying a liquid rocket?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we were very worried about it. We were involved in all the design reviews, the safety reviews, developing procedures for getting rid of that stage if we had a problem during launch. So that was a big concern, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever approach John Young or George Abbey or Rick Hauck at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we assumed we could solve all these problems. We were still basically bulletproof. Until\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n , we just thought we were bulletproof and the things would always work, some details to work out, but I guess that was my attitude, anyway. It was a challenging mission, it was a privilege to be assigned to it, important mission, I thought, so, we just had to work it out, was our attitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How closely were you working with the folks out at Lewis Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] and the other contractors?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.551334206034802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we were very worried about it. We were involved in all the design reviews, the safety reviews, developing procedures for getting rid of that stage if we had a problem during launch. So that was a big concern, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever approach John Young or George Abbey or Rick Hauck at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we assumed we could solve all these problems. We were still basically bulletproof. Until\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n , we just thought we were bulletproof and the things would always work, some details to work out, but I guess that was my attitude, anyway. It was a challenging mission, it was a privilege to be assigned to it, important mission, I thought, so, we just had to work it out, was our attitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How closely were you working with the folks out at Lewis Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] and the other contractors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very close. Very close. In fact, they probably blamed us for getting that mission canceled, but we really weren’t aggressive about that. We expressed some concerns about adequacy of the software or making sure we had the right procedures, but we thought it would work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised when [James C.] Fletcher finally decided to cancel the Shuttle’s Centaur program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.322634822265188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very close. Very close. In fact, they probably blamed us for getting that mission canceled, but we really weren’t aggressive about that. We expressed some concerns about adequacy of the software or making sure we had the right procedures, but we thought it would work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised when [James C.] Fletcher finally decided to cancel the Shuttle’s Centaur program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After the accident?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. After the accident, it was a different environment, different willingness to take risks, different—because another accident would have killed the program forever. So, no, I wasn’t surprised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement with the crew of STS-41 that eventually ended up flying the Ulysses spacecraft?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.247372024739098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After the accident?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. After the accident, it was a different environment, different willingness to take risks, different—because another accident would have killed the program forever. So, no, I wasn’t surprised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement with the crew of STS-41 that eventually ended up flying the Ulysses spacecraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, by then I was off working station design, I think, Station Freedom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when you heard about the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.163746694154554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. After the accident, it was a different environment, different willingness to take risks, different—because another accident would have killed the program forever. So, no, I wasn’t surprised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement with the crew of STS-41 that eventually ended up flying the Ulysses spacecraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, by then I was off working station design, I think, Station Freedom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when you heard about the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember if it was a training class. It was a flight procedures review, reviewing the Centaur abort procedures that we might have to exercise in May, when we flew that mission on\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . So we stopped the meeting to watch on the monitor in the room, watched the launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do immediately after you saw that the crew had been lost and the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.070829660171727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, by then I was off working station design, I think, Station Freedom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when you heard about the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember if it was a training class. It was a flight procedures review, reviewing the Centaur abort procedures that we might have to exercise in May, when we flew that mission on\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . So we stopped the meeting to watch on the monitor in the room, watched the launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do immediately after you saw that the crew had been lost and the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was obvious when the thing blew apart. Nobody said a word. I think we all just filed out. My wife was due to fly in from a trip she’d had to California within an hour and a half of that, so I decided to drive up to Intercontinental [Airport, Houston, Texas] and meet her. So that’s what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any responsibilities in the investigation or the recovery?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.07869962241303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember if it was a training class. It was a flight procedures review, reviewing the Centaur abort procedures that we might have to exercise in May, when we flew that mission on\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . So we stopped the meeting to watch on the monitor in the room, watched the launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did you do immediately after you saw that the crew had been lost and the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was obvious when the thing blew apart. Nobody said a word. I think we all just filed out. My wife was due to fly in from a trip she’d had to California within an hour and a half of that, so I decided to drive up to Intercontinental [Airport, Houston, Texas] and meet her. So that’s what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any responsibilities in the investigation or the recovery?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I supported the technical team that looked at the tank and the engines, and tried to understand what had happened there, make sure there wasn’t any engine-related problem. So we didn’t know at first that it was the solid rocket booster joint, although that came out pretty quickly, so I didn’t spend a lot of time on that task. A little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What effect do you think the accident had on the astronaut corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.087444024903366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was obvious when the thing blew apart. Nobody said a word. I think we all just filed out. My wife was due to fly in from a trip she’d had to California within an hour and a half of that, so I decided to drive up to Intercontinental [Airport, Houston, Texas] and meet her. So that’s what I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any responsibilities in the investigation or the recovery?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I supported the technical team that looked at the tank and the engines, and tried to understand what had happened there, make sure there wasn’t any engine-related problem. So we didn’t know at first that it was the solid rocket booster joint, although that came out pretty quickly, so I didn’t spend a lot of time on that task. A little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What effect do you think the accident had on the astronaut corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it got rid of a bunch of people that were unwilling to wait around then, because it was obvious that this was a major change in the program, that we would never fly as much as we thought we would fly, and it would be several years, unknown how many years before we flew again, so I think it motivated people to leave. Ox is one, for instance, because he was not wanting to wait around. Did people leave because they now understood that this was a real flying business where accidents happen? I don’t think so. Most of us came from operational backgrounds where that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever consider leaving the Astronaut Office at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.874937805448185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I supported the technical team that looked at the tank and the engines, and tried to understand what had happened there, make sure there wasn’t any engine-related problem. So we didn’t know at first that it was the solid rocket booster joint, although that came out pretty quickly, so I didn’t spend a lot of time on that task. A little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What effect do you think the accident had on the astronaut corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it got rid of a bunch of people that were unwilling to wait around then, because it was obvious that this was a major change in the program, that we would never fly as much as we thought we would fly, and it would be several years, unknown how many years before we flew again, so I think it motivated people to leave. Ox is one, for instance, because he was not wanting to wait around. Did people leave because they now understood that this was a real flying business where accidents happen? I don’t think so. Most of us came from operational backgrounds where that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever consider leaving the Astronaut Office at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, Rick Hauck said, “We’re going to be all right. We’ll be fine.” He hinted that we might fly soon or we might be on the crew that flew the return. He went to Headquarters and was Public Affairs Associate Administrator for Fletcher then and was very tight with Fletcher, so we just hung around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you flew on STS-26, you were working in Space Station."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.749930894942427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it got rid of a bunch of people that were unwilling to wait around then, because it was obvious that this was a major change in the program, that we would never fly as much as we thought we would fly, and it would be several years, unknown how many years before we flew again, so I think it motivated people to leave. Ox is one, for instance, because he was not wanting to wait around. Did people leave because they now understood that this was a real flying business where accidents happen? I don’t think so. Most of us came from operational backgrounds where that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever consider leaving the Astronaut Office at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, Rick Hauck said, “We’re going to be all right. We’ll be fine.” He hinted that we might fly soon or we might be on the crew that flew the return. He went to Headquarters and was Public Affairs Associate Administrator for Fletcher then and was very tight with Fletcher, so we just hung around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you flew on STS-26, you were working in Space Station."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got assigned to Space Station, the early conceptual design, Station Freedom at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the dual-keel design at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.722145438824919, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, Rick Hauck said, “We’re going to be all right. We’ll be fine.” He hinted that we might fly soon or we might be on the crew that flew the return. He went to Headquarters and was Public Affairs Associate Administrator for Fletcher then and was very tight with Fletcher, so we just hung around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you flew on STS-26, you were working in Space Station."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got assigned to Space Station, the early conceptual design, Station Freedom at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the dual-keel design at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it started with dual keel and had a racetrack arrangement of modules. It had all kinds of silly stuff. It had a hangar for fixing satellites. I don’t know how we thought we’d ever lift all that up there or make it work when we got it there, but, yes, that was that time frame."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you primarily working crew interface as you were in the seventies with the payloads?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.802383820916576, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got assigned to Space Station, the early conceptual design, Station Freedom at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the dual-keel design at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it started with dual keel and had a racetrack arrangement of modules. It had all kinds of silly stuff. It had a hangar for fixing satellites. I don’t know how we thought we’d ever lift all that up there or make it work when we got it there, but, yes, that was that time frame."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you primarily working crew interface as you were in the seventies with the payloads?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, that’s the assignment. Crew concerns. One of my big campaigns was windows in the staterooms. I said, if you’re going to have staterooms, they have to have windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are staterooms?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.002648689907307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it started with dual keel and had a racetrack arrangement of modules. It had all kinds of silly stuff. It had a hangar for fixing satellites. I don’t know how we thought we’d ever lift all that up there or make it work when we got it there, but, yes, that was that time frame."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you primarily working crew interface as you were in the seventies with the payloads?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, that’s the assignment. Crew concerns. One of my big campaigns was windows in the staterooms. I said, if you’re going to have staterooms, they have to have windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are staterooms?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s crew quarters, like on a ship. So I think in the end they didn’t even have staterooms. They got tents in the hallway. In those days we insisted on staterooms with windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were some of the other folks you were working with?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.002942988785897, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, that’s the assignment. Crew concerns. One of my big campaigns was windows in the staterooms. I said, if you’re going to have staterooms, they have to have windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are staterooms?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s crew quarters, like on a ship. So I think in the end they didn’t even have staterooms. They got tents in the hallway. In those days we insisted on staterooms with windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were some of the other folks you were working with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Story Musgrave. Ron [Ronald J.] Grabe was involved then. We set up an office to focus on it, so I think Mike [C. Michael] Foale worked with me for a while. Those are the ones I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Astronaut Office had changed a little bit since you had come in. I think John Young had left and Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein became chief."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.114381098650997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s crew quarters, like on a ship. So I think in the end they didn’t even have staterooms. They got tents in the hallway. In those days we insisted on staterooms with windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were some of the other folks you were working with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Story Musgrave. Ron [Ronald J.] Grabe was involved then. We set up an office to focus on it, so I think Mike [C. Michael] Foale worked with me for a while. Those are the ones I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Astronaut Office had changed a little bit since you had come in. I think John Young had left and Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein became chief."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Flight Crew Operations, George Abbey wasn’t there anymore, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.34931233183444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Story Musgrave. Ron [Ronald J.] Grabe was involved then. We set up an office to focus on it, so I think Mike [C. Michael] Foale worked with me for a while. Those are the ones I remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Astronaut Office had changed a little bit since you had come in. I think John Young had left and Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein became chief."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Flight Crew Operations, George Abbey wasn’t there anymore, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He left after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What impact did that have on the office as you stepped into more of a more management-type position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.443595471400544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He left after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What impact did that have on the office as you stepped into more of a more management-type position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things were probably a little more straightforward, you know, how decisions were made. So I worked for Don [Donald R.] Puddy as the Flight Operations Directorate Director. Your basic question was how did the environment change?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were all more realistic then. Sort of the halcyon days of “We can do anything” and “The Shuttle will revolutionize the world,” that was changing. We realized that with the satellite business going back to expendable rockets, that the Shuttle had to have a mission, and so that’s why Station became very important, so we started really focusing on making Station a real thing so the Shuttle had something to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes sense. When did you find out officially that you were going to be on the Return to Flight crew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.270661634889493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things were probably a little more straightforward, you know, how decisions were made. So I worked for Don [Donald R.] Puddy as the Flight Operations Directorate Director. Your basic question was how did the environment change?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were all more realistic then. Sort of the halcyon days of “We can do anything” and “The Shuttle will revolutionize the world,” that was changing. We realized that with the satellite business going back to expendable rockets, that the Shuttle had to have a mission, and so that’s why Station became very important, so we started really focusing on making Station a real thing so the Shuttle had something to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes sense. When did you find out officially that you were going to be on the Return to Flight crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They timed that at the one-year anniversary of the accident. That’s when they announced it. I think we knew it a couple weeks before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your family think of that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.189624038766102, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were all more realistic then. Sort of the halcyon days of “We can do anything” and “The Shuttle will revolutionize the world,” that was changing. We realized that with the satellite business going back to expendable rockets, that the Shuttle had to have a mission, and so that’s why Station became very important, so we started really focusing on making Station a real thing so the Shuttle had something to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes sense. When did you find out officially that you were going to be on the Return to Flight crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They timed that at the one-year anniversary of the accident. That’s when they announced it. I think we knew it a couple weeks before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your family think of that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were okay. It was fine. You either stay in the business or you get out of it, and if you stay in the business, it’s to fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of people have told us, and I’ve read as well, that everyone wanted to be on this flight. Can you explain why that was the case?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.8773600430734465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They timed that at the one-year anniversary of the accident. That’s when they announced it. I think we knew it a couple weeks before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your family think of that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were okay. It was fine. You either stay in the business or you get out of it, and if you stay in the business, it’s to fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of people have told us, and I’ve read as well, that everyone wanted to be on this flight. Can you explain why that was the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I just said. If you’re going to stay in the business, you stay in it to fly. So, yes, that was a big deal to be on that flight. My story is, well, they just picked the most qualified, best-looking crew they could find. The reality is, Rick Hauck already had the crew, essentially four of us, [6]1-F, were lined up sort of in line, and they added Pinky [George D. Nelson] to make the fifth, so that’s the real story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about the crew relationship. You guys were all veterans and you were going to be flying this flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4192889367482735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were okay. It was fine. You either stay in the business or you get out of it, and if you stay in the business, it’s to fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of people have told us, and I’ve read as well, that everyone wanted to be on this flight. Can you explain why that was the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I just said. If you’re going to stay in the business, you stay in it to fly. So, yes, that was a big deal to be on that flight. My story is, well, they just picked the most qualified, best-looking crew they could find. The reality is, Rick Hauck already had the crew, essentially four of us, [6]1-F, were lined up sort of in line, and they added Pinky [George D. Nelson] to make the fifth, so that’s the real story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about the crew relationship. You guys were all veterans and you were going to be flying this flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So that was a good, hardworking crew. We had a lot of responsibility, I think, and that was a lot more public. The first mission, as I said, we did it because no one noticed. We were just one of ten. Now suddenly we’re one of one, so there was a lot more public pressure on doing things. I’ll never forget Dan’s prayer as we go to the pad for STS-26. He said, “We need to take time to say a brief prayer.” Said, “God help you if you screw this up.” [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks, boss.\\n\\n There was a lot of press interest, of course, in this Return to Flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.021432151942526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I just said. If you’re going to stay in the business, you stay in it to fly. So, yes, that was a big deal to be on that flight. My story is, well, they just picked the most qualified, best-looking crew they could find. The reality is, Rick Hauck already had the crew, essentially four of us, [6]1-F, were lined up sort of in line, and they added Pinky [George D. Nelson] to make the fifth, so that’s the real story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about the crew relationship. You guys were all veterans and you were going to be flying this flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So that was a good, hardworking crew. We had a lot of responsibility, I think, and that was a lot more public. The first mission, as I said, we did it because no one noticed. We were just one of ten. Now suddenly we’re one of one, so there was a lot more public pressure on doing things. I’ll never forget Dan’s prayer as we go to the pad for STS-26. He said, “We need to take time to say a brief prayer.” Said, “God help you if you screw this up.” [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks, boss.\\n\\n There was a lot of press interest, of course, in this Return to Flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the crew handle that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.579369057713918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So that was a good, hardworking crew. We had a lot of responsibility, I think, and that was a lot more public. The first mission, as I said, we did it because no one noticed. We were just one of ten. Now suddenly we’re one of one, so there was a lot more public pressure on doing things. I’ll never forget Dan’s prayer as we go to the pad for STS-26. He said, “We need to take time to say a brief prayer.” Said, “God help you if you screw this up.” [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks, boss.\\n\\n There was a lot of press interest, of course, in this Return to Flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the crew handle that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You just focus on it. I mean, you don’t see that. When you’re flying, it’s just the five of you and the CapCom. That’s all there is in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that there was a\\n\\n 48 Hours\\n\\n episode and you were also featured on the cover of the\\n\\n New York Times Magazine\\n\\n ."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.1992989530154645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the crew handle that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You just focus on it. I mean, you don’t see that. When you’re flying, it’s just the five of you and the CapCom. That’s all there is in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that there was a\\n\\n 48 Hours\\n\\n episode and you were also featured on the cover of the\\n\\n New York Times Magazine\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of all of this media attention?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.888109947794961, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You just focus on it. I mean, you don’t see that. When you’re flying, it’s just the five of you and the CapCom. That’s all there is in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that there was a\\n\\n 48 Hours\\n\\n episode and you were also featured on the cover of the\\n\\n New York Times Magazine\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of all of this media attention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t care for it, but part of the job, I guess. Not part of it that I sought out, enjoyed particularly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had training changed at all since your last flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.653455497549956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of all of this media attention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t care for it, but part of the job, I guess. Not part of it that I sought out, enjoyed particularly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had training changed at all since your last flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably a lot more training on contingency scenarios, the things that could go wrong during launch and what to do about them, although I’ve always been a little skeptical that that was really a “stay busy” kind of approach. Reality is, if things really start going wrong, there’s not much you can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that sort of the consensus among the astronauts when the crew escape system was devised?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.503839441722173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t care for it, but part of the job, I guess. Not part of it that I sought out, enjoyed particularly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had training changed at all since your last flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably a lot more training on contingency scenarios, the things that could go wrong during launch and what to do about them, although I’ve always been a little skeptical that that was really a “stay busy” kind of approach. Reality is, if things really start going wrong, there’s not much you can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that sort of the consensus among the astronauts when the crew escape system was devised?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. What a waste. That’s political eyewash. And I really feel bad we didn’t stand up and say that, because it’s an extra I don’t know how many thousand pounds of weight in the crew cabin that takes away from the payload-carrying capability of the Space Shuttle, and it just is no value added. It’s value subtracted. What little you could do in the event something went wrong, you could do less of it when you’re burdened by these suits that do you no good. I was totally against it and still am. They offer no value."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book\\n\\n [Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\\n\\n ]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.337599379691303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably a lot more training on contingency scenarios, the things that could go wrong during launch and what to do about them, although I’ve always been a little skeptical that that was really a “stay busy” kind of approach. Reality is, if things really start going wrong, there’s not much you can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that sort of the consensus among the astronauts when the crew escape system was devised?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. What a waste. That’s political eyewash. And I really feel bad we didn’t stand up and say that, because it’s an extra I don’t know how many thousand pounds of weight in the crew cabin that takes away from the payload-carrying capability of the Space Shuttle, and it just is no value added. It’s value subtracted. What little you could do in the event something went wrong, you could do less of it when you’re burdened by these suits that do you no good. I was totally against it and still am. They offer no value."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book\\n\\n [Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\\n\\n ]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Mike’s great. Mike has a lot better memory than I do. He remembers things. I think he also has the writer’s skill of where he can’t remember, he makes it up. [laughs] In a creative way. My idea of the world in the office back then was never as Machiavellian as Mike’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of his depiction of the Return to Flight crew and his depiction of Rick Hauck, the commander?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.263999310768115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. What a waste. That’s political eyewash. And I really feel bad we didn’t stand up and say that, because it’s an extra I don’t know how many thousand pounds of weight in the crew cabin that takes away from the payload-carrying capability of the Space Shuttle, and it just is no value added. It’s value subtracted. What little you could do in the event something went wrong, you could do less of it when you’re burdened by these suits that do you no good. I was totally against it and still am. They offer no value."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Have you had a chance to read Mike Mullane’s book\\n\\n [Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut\\n\\n ]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Mike’s great. Mike has a lot better memory than I do. He remembers things. I think he also has the writer’s skill of where he can’t remember, he makes it up. [laughs] In a creative way. My idea of the world in the office back then was never as Machiavellian as Mike’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of his depiction of the Return to Flight crew and his depiction of Rick Hauck, the commander?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to remember what he said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I haven’t read it in a while, but I think he thought the crew was a little full of themselves, that they got, of course, dibs on all the simulators."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.293332567520128, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Mike’s great. Mike has a lot better memory than I do. He remembers things. I think he also has the writer’s skill of where he can’t remember, he makes it up. [laughs] In a creative way. My idea of the world in the office back then was never as Machiavellian as Mike’s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think of his depiction of the Return to Flight crew and his depiction of Rick Hauck, the commander?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to remember what he said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I haven’t read it in a while, but I think he thought the crew was a little full of themselves, that they got, of course, dibs on all the simulators."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seemed like the Return to Flight crew was taking up too much time [and received too much attention for their relatively easy mission]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.881480630577921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to remember what he said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I haven’t read it in a while, but I think he thought the crew was a little full of themselves, that they got, of course, dibs on all the simulators."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seemed like the Return to Flight crew was taking up too much time [and received too much attention for their relatively easy mission]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was just jealous. He was just jealous. Although I like to claim that we did have a pretty good parking place. In fact, Building 4 South is smack on top of my old parking place. [laughs] So that was not bad, being prime crew for thirty-two months. Well, not thirty-two. Thirty-two minus twelve. Twenty months we were prime crew. So there were some perks to pay for all that crap about being in the press and dealing with the press and all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the mood like at the Center as you were preparing for this flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.423867367308802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Seemed like the Return to Flight crew was taking up too much time [and received too much attention for their relatively easy mission]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was just jealous. He was just jealous. Although I like to claim that we did have a pretty good parking place. In fact, Building 4 South is smack on top of my old parking place. [laughs] So that was not bad, being prime crew for thirty-two months. Well, not thirty-two. Thirty-two minus twelve. Twenty months we were prime crew. So there were some perks to pay for all that crap about being in the press and dealing with the press and all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the mood like at the Center as you were preparing for this flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just anxious to get on with it. We’d dealt with all the issues. Truth is, we could have launched on the next warm day. So we had to fix that problem about three different ways. Flight rules say you can’t launch when it’s cold, and redesigned the joints so it can’t have a problem when it’s cold. I think they added a redundant seal, as I recall. So anyway, I counted three fixes. So we weren’t worried about that one anymore. It’s the one that we didn’t know about that would get you. That’s always true. Like debris falling down the leading edge. So I remember thinking about the leading edge and carbon phenolic and handling it a little bit, just to understand what it was. We never thought of it as being this extremely fragile thing that you could knock a hole in, really. Well, I didn’t lose any sleep about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any concerns on that day going out to the launch pad, other than what Dan had offered?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.026519297009779, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was just jealous. He was just jealous. Although I like to claim that we did have a pretty good parking place. In fact, Building 4 South is smack on top of my old parking place. [laughs] So that was not bad, being prime crew for thirty-two months. Well, not thirty-two. Thirty-two minus twelve. Twenty months we were prime crew. So there were some perks to pay for all that crap about being in the press and dealing with the press and all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the mood like at the Center as you were preparing for this flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just anxious to get on with it. We’d dealt with all the issues. Truth is, we could have launched on the next warm day. So we had to fix that problem about three different ways. Flight rules say you can’t launch when it’s cold, and redesigned the joints so it can’t have a problem when it’s cold. I think they added a redundant seal, as I recall. So anyway, I counted three fixes. So we weren’t worried about that one anymore. It’s the one that we didn’t know about that would get you. That’s always true. Like debris falling down the leading edge. So I remember thinking about the leading edge and carbon phenolic and handling it a little bit, just to understand what it was. We never thought of it as being this extremely fragile thing that you could knock a hole in, really. Well, I didn’t lose any sleep about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any concerns on that day going out to the launch pad, other than what Dan had offered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. It wasn’t real high tension. It was, “Let’s get out of here. We’re tired of not flying.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that that launch took about four minutes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.696132552233087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just anxious to get on with it. We’d dealt with all the issues. Truth is, we could have launched on the next warm day. So we had to fix that problem about three different ways. Flight rules say you can’t launch when it’s cold, and redesigned the joints so it can’t have a problem when it’s cold. I think they added a redundant seal, as I recall. So anyway, I counted three fixes. So we weren’t worried about that one anymore. It’s the one that we didn’t know about that would get you. That’s always true. Like debris falling down the leading edge. So I remember thinking about the leading edge and carbon phenolic and handling it a little bit, just to understand what it was. We never thought of it as being this extremely fragile thing that you could knock a hole in, really. Well, I didn’t lose any sleep about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any concerns on that day going out to the launch pad, other than what Dan had offered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. It wasn’t real high tension. It was, “Let’s get out of here. We’re tired of not flying.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that that launch took about four minutes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just flew by. I don’t know why. Compared to the first one, especially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, any thoughts of the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n crew as you were launching?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.440147280258985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. It wasn’t real high tension. It was, “Let’s get out of here. We’re tired of not flying.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that that launch took about four minutes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just flew by. I don’t know why. Compared to the first one, especially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, any thoughts of the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n crew as you were launching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes. When you go through maximum aerodynamic pressure, which is really where there’s most stress on the vehicle—that’s where\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n blew up—when you fly through that area, you couldn’t help but think about them. And we had a picture of the crew on the middeck and did a little memorial for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that Dave [David C.] Hilmers came up with that idea."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.155719200287761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just flew by. I don’t know why. Compared to the first one, especially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, any thoughts of the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n crew as you were launching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes. When you go through maximum aerodynamic pressure, which is really where there’s most stress on the vehicle—that’s where\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n blew up—when you fly through that area, you couldn’t help but think about them. And we had a picture of the crew on the middeck and did a little memorial for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that Dave [David C.] Hilmers came up with that idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was probably Dave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What effect do you think that that had on the agency, paying homage to the crew of the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.950799111430845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes. When you go through maximum aerodynamic pressure, which is really where there’s most stress on the vehicle—that’s where\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n blew up—when you fly through that area, you couldn’t help but think about them. And we had a picture of the crew on the middeck and did a little memorial for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that Dave [David C.] Hilmers came up with that idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was probably Dave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What effect do you think that that had on the agency, paying homage to the crew of the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think it was healing. I think it was a good step. We needed to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you flew on the flight, President [Ronald] Reagan came out to JSC."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.834221234923161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was probably Dave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What effect do you think that that had on the agency, paying homage to the crew of the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think it was healing. I think it was a good step. We needed to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you flew on the flight, President [Ronald] Reagan came out to JSC."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell me about that event? Any recollections?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.593579149914623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think it was healing. I think it was a good step. We needed to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you flew on the flight, President [Ronald] Reagan came out to JSC."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell me about that event? Any recollections?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we saw him then, actually, and then we saw him in the Rose Garden after the flight. But that was very flattering that he would come out there, and I got pictures of he and my family and he and the kids independently, that I hope I can find, actually because I’m not very good at keeping things. So that was an honor. What I remember about Reagan personally is he seemed not very animated until the cameras came on. That’s what I remember. When the red light of the camera came on, he came on. He was 100 percent on. Then when it was off, he was sort of off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The consummate actor."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.437310166571804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell me about that event? Any recollections?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we saw him then, actually, and then we saw him in the Rose Garden after the flight. But that was very flattering that he would come out there, and I got pictures of he and my family and he and the kids independently, that I hope I can find, actually because I’m not very good at keeping things. So that was an honor. What I remember about Reagan personally is he seemed not very animated until the cameras came on. That’s what I remember. When the red light of the camera came on, he came on. He was 100 percent on. Then when it was off, he was sort of off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The consummate actor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you took up a jacket for him, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.374789073968671, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we saw him then, actually, and then we saw him in the Rose Garden after the flight. But that was very flattering that he would come out there, and I got pictures of he and my family and he and the kids independently, that I hope I can find, actually because I’m not very good at keeping things. So that was an honor. What I remember about Reagan personally is he seemed not very animated until the cameras came on. That’s what I remember. When the red light of the camera came on, he came on. He was 100 percent on. Then when it was off, he was sort of off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The consummate actor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you took up a jacket for him, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. It wasn’t me personally, but it was on the flight. In fact, we gave it to him in the Rose Garden. Yes, I’d forgotten that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you guys during your free time on STS-26? You had a pretty light mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.194210082187412, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you took up a jacket for him, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. It wasn’t me personally, but it was on the flight. In fact, we gave it to him in the Rose Garden. Yes, I’d forgotten that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you guys during your free time on STS-26? You had a pretty light mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeas, really. TDRS and a couple of middeck experiments. Did the usual playing with the M&Ms, playing with your food. That’s always a biggie. Looking out the window is always a biggie. I didn’t tell you about marching. Did anybody tell you about marching?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Dick Covey mentioned something."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.104677869097124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. It wasn’t me personally, but it was on the flight. In fact, we gave it to him in the Rose Garden. Yes, I’d forgotten that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you guys during your free time on STS-26? You had a pretty light mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeas, really. TDRS and a couple of middeck experiments. Did the usual playing with the M&Ms, playing with your food. That’s always a biggie. Looking out the window is always a biggie. I didn’t tell you about marching. Did anybody tell you about marching?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Dick Covey mentioned something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the funniest thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.116308743441248, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeas, really. TDRS and a couple of middeck experiments. Did the usual playing with the M&Ms, playing with your food. That’s always a biggie. Looking out the window is always a biggie. I didn’t tell you about marching. Did anybody tell you about marching?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Dick Covey mentioned something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the funniest thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fish and I created this one on the middeck of the first flight, when we had kind of a down time. We had about a day or two after the EVAs, before we came home, to just kind of settle down. So we discovered that you could do close-order drill in weightlessness if you maneuvered your arms and legs the right way. So we did close-order drill, right face, about face, marching in place, and Joe came down. He was the drill sergeant. That was just so funny. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also understand that’s also featured in a movie. Dick Covey had mentioned\\n\\n Loaded Weapon\\n\\n , I think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.240343048268054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the funniest thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fish and I created this one on the middeck of the first flight, when we had kind of a down time. We had about a day or two after the EVAs, before we came home, to just kind of settle down. So we discovered that you could do close-order drill in weightlessness if you maneuvered your arms and legs the right way. So we did close-order drill, right face, about face, marching in place, and Joe came down. He was the drill sergeant. That was just so funny. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also understand that’s also featured in a movie. Dick Covey had mentioned\\n\\n Loaded Weapon\\n\\n , I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Naked Gun 33 1/3."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. I’ll fix that on his transcript."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.37815894252006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fish and I created this one on the middeck of the first flight, when we had kind of a down time. We had about a day or two after the EVAs, before we came home, to just kind of settle down. So we discovered that you could do close-order drill in weightlessness if you maneuvered your arms and legs the right way. So we did close-order drill, right face, about face, marching in place, and Joe came down. He was the drill sergeant. That was just so funny. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also understand that’s also featured in a movie. Dick Covey had mentioned\\n\\n Loaded Weapon\\n\\n , I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Naked Gun 33 1/3."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. I’ll fix that on his transcript."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. It’s\\n\\n Naked Gun 33 1/3\\n\\n , and it’s about a half a second. You really have to be ready for, but it’s there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll check it out, because I couldn’t find it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.642398825022289, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Naked Gun 33 1/3."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. I’ll fix that on his transcript."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. It’s\\n\\n Naked Gun 33 1/3\\n\\n , and it’s about a half a second. You really have to be ready for, but it’s there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll check it out, because I couldn’t find it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, check that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your crew also planned to carry out an American flag to sort of build on the patriotism of the flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.935998694469209, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. It’s\\n\\n Naked Gun 33 1/3\\n\\n , and it’s about a half a second. You really have to be ready for, but it’s there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll check it out, because I couldn’t find it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, check that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your crew also planned to carry out an American flag to sort of build on the patriotism of the flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and it was right at the Olympics. Yes, we did, in fact, at touchdown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember there being any sort of political outrage at carrying out the flag?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.373331882743566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, check that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your crew also planned to carry out an American flag to sort of build on the patriotism of the flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and it was right at the Olympics. Yes, we did, in fact, at touchdown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember there being any sort of political outrage at carrying out the flag?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember somebody saying, well, somebody might not like it, and we said, “We don’t care.” Did somebody not like it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rick had mentioned that it was the ’88 election, and someone had said that George [H.W.] Bush [and his campaign had staged the event]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.85925764749285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and it was right at the Olympics. Yes, we did, in fact, at touchdown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember there being any sort of political outrage at carrying out the flag?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember somebody saying, well, somebody might not like it, and we said, “We don’t care.” Did somebody not like it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rick had mentioned that it was the ’88 election, and someone had said that George [H.W.] Bush [and his campaign had staged the event]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. Well, you know, George Bush had nothing to do with it. That was our idea, so we just weren’t in tune to that kind of politics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised that Bush was there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.510286274992055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember somebody saying, well, somebody might not like it, and we said, “We don’t care.” Did somebody not like it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rick had mentioned that it was the ’88 election, and someone had said that George [H.W.] Bush [and his campaign had staged the event]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. Well, you know, George Bush had nothing to do with it. That was our idea, so we just weren’t in tune to that kind of politics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised that Bush was there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So let me tell you an interesting story about Bush being there. I think we learned on orbit that he would be there. So my brother had been married to this girl that lived in California, and I had met her a couple of times, and her name was—I’m going to think of her name in a minute. That’s embarrassing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can always add it later."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.900318083324505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. Well, you know, George Bush had nothing to do with it. That was our idea, so we just weren’t in tune to that kind of politics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you surprised that Bush was there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So let me tell you an interesting story about Bush being there. I think we learned on orbit that he would be there. So my brother had been married to this girl that lived in California, and I had met her a couple of times, and her name was—I’m going to think of her name in a minute. That’s embarrassing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can always add it later."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll think of it. Anyway, this is landing day. We hadn’t landed yet, and the Secret Service is there and my wife’s there with my kids, and somebody comes up to her and says, “Does Mike have a sister named—,” whatever the name was.\\n\\n And she said, “Well, no. Why?”\\n\\n And she said, “Well, somebody just left this package and said it was Mike’s sister.”\\n\\n So Kitty said, “No, I never heard of that.”\\n\\n So they went and they blew up the package, and it turned out to be some sort of crystal goblet that my ex-sister-in-law, who lived close by there, had driven up and had left it for me. So the Secret Service had blown up the package. [laughs] And I didn’t know how to get in touch with her to thank her, to explain it to her. I didn’t have any way to connect. My brother had lost connection with her. So to this day I don’t know if she knows that story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d hate to be around with the shrapnel."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.444797870360562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So let me tell you an interesting story about Bush being there. I think we learned on orbit that he would be there. So my brother had been married to this girl that lived in California, and I had met her a couple of times, and her name was—I’m going to think of her name in a minute. That’s embarrassing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can always add it later."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll think of it. Anyway, this is landing day. We hadn’t landed yet, and the Secret Service is there and my wife’s there with my kids, and somebody comes up to her and says, “Does Mike have a sister named—,” whatever the name was.\\n\\n And she said, “Well, no. Why?”\\n\\n And she said, “Well, somebody just left this package and said it was Mike’s sister.”\\n\\n So Kitty said, “No, I never heard of that.”\\n\\n So they went and they blew up the package, and it turned out to be some sort of crystal goblet that my ex-sister-in-law, who lived close by there, had driven up and had left it for me. So the Secret Service had blown up the package. [laughs] And I didn’t know how to get in touch with her to thank her, to explain it to her. I didn’t have any way to connect. My brother had lost connection with her. So to this day I don’t know if she knows that story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d hate to be around with the shrapnel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what are your recollections of the day beyond blowing up the package? Having lunch with George and Barb [Barbara Bush]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.049775411511735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll think of it. Anyway, this is landing day. We hadn’t landed yet, and the Secret Service is there and my wife’s there with my kids, and somebody comes up to her and says, “Does Mike have a sister named—,” whatever the name was.\\n\\n And she said, “Well, no. Why?”\\n\\n And she said, “Well, somebody just left this package and said it was Mike’s sister.”\\n\\n So Kitty said, “No, I never heard of that.”\\n\\n So they went and they blew up the package, and it turned out to be some sort of crystal goblet that my ex-sister-in-law, who lived close by there, had driven up and had left it for me. So the Secret Service had blown up the package. [laughs] And I didn’t know how to get in touch with her to thank her, to explain it to her. I didn’t have any way to connect. My brother had lost connection with her. So to this day I don’t know if she knows that story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d hate to be around with the shrapnel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what are your recollections of the day beyond blowing up the package? Having lunch with George and Barb [Barbara Bush]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, I guess we did. I guess we did. I went to George and Barb’s home after my last flights, what I remember more about them, at the White House."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the flight, you guys went back to the White House, and then you also went to Congress."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.833083790568594, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what are your recollections of the day beyond blowing up the package? Having lunch with George and Barb [Barbara Bush]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, I guess we did. I guess we did. I went to George and Barb’s home after my last flights, what I remember more about them, at the White House."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the flight, you guys went back to the White House, and then you also went to Congress."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. They had a special resolution that day of our Return to Flight. I’ve got that somewhere, too. Yes, so that was a big deal. I think the Congress was much more friendly about the program back then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think that was the case?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.814537545076213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, I guess we did. I guess we did. I went to George and Barb’s home after my last flights, what I remember more about them, at the White House."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the flight, you guys went back to the White House, and then you also went to Congress."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. They had a special resolution that day of our Return to Flight. I’ve got that somewhere, too. Yes, so that was a big deal. I think the Congress was much more friendly about the program back then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think that was the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. There were a lot higher expectations. It was a new program then, a new thing, not an old thing. Now it’s an old thing. People want to get off of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After this, you guys took some PR [Public Relations] tours to the various contractors and NASA Centers."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.90504171675135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. They had a special resolution that day of our Return to Flight. I’ve got that somewhere, too. Yes, so that was a big deal. I think the Congress was much more friendly about the program back then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think that was the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. There were a lot higher expectations. It was a new program then, a new thing, not an old thing. Now it’s an old thing. People want to get off of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After this, you guys took some PR [Public Relations] tours to the various contractors and NASA Centers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think we hit all the relevant Centers and the big contractors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you welcomed back at JSC?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.005601907501497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. There were a lot higher expectations. It was a new program then, a new thing, not an old thing. Now it’s an old thing. People want to get off of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After this, you guys took some PR [Public Relations] tours to the various contractors and NASA Centers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think we hit all the relevant Centers and the big contractors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you welcomed back at JSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Big. It was a big welcome. Had a big party at the Gilruth, I remember. We wore our “Loud and Proud” shirts, which were the Hawaiian very garish kind of multicolored. We wore them on orbit and had one of our pictures taken with that, surfing. We were surfing in the middeck. So that was fun, and it was good to go around and thank people that had hung in there and got us back to flying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m looking at my watch and I’m wondering, do you want to stop here and pick up next time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.33955767500166, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think we hit all the relevant Centers and the big contractors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you welcomed back at JSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Big. It was a big welcome. Had a big party at the Gilruth, I remember. We wore our “Loud and Proud” shirts, which were the Hawaiian very garish kind of multicolored. We wore them on orbit and had one of our pictures taken with that, surfing. We were surfing in the middeck. So that was fun, and it was good to go around and thank people that had hung in there and got us back to flying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m looking at my watch and I’m wondering, do you want to stop here and pick up next time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We can press ahead. Let me make sure I haven’t made a commitment I’ve forgotten about.\\n\\n [tape pause]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after this flight you were working as the Chief of Space Station Support Office."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 25.932841861112955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Big. It was a big welcome. Had a big party at the Gilruth, I remember. We wore our “Loud and Proud” shirts, which were the Hawaiian very garish kind of multicolored. We wore them on orbit and had one of our pictures taken with that, surfing. We were surfing in the middeck. So that was fun, and it was good to go around and thank people that had hung in there and got us back to flying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m looking at my watch and I’m wondering, do you want to stop here and pick up next time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We can press ahead. Let me make sure I haven’t made a commitment I’ve forgotten about.\\n\\n [tape pause]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after this flight you were working as the Chief of Space Station Support Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I went back to that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had things changed much?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 22.147602067903282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We can press ahead. Let me make sure I haven’t made a commitment I’ve forgotten about.\\n\\n [tape pause]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after this flight you were working as the Chief of Space Station Support Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I went back to that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had things changed much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was more emphasis on it. As I said, somewhere around in there, the Center as a whole got serious about Station, and then there was a lot of battling—and there still is—about JSC’s piece versus Marshall’s piece [Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], versus Glenn’s piece [Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. So a big part of the job was getting involved in those inter-Center politics, which I’d never really been involved in before. So that was interesting times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were working the various work packages?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.275113408781426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I went back to that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had things changed much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was more emphasis on it. As I said, somewhere around in there, the Center as a whole got serious about Station, and then there was a lot of battling—and there still is—about JSC’s piece versus Marshall’s piece [Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], versus Glenn’s piece [Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. So a big part of the job was getting involved in those inter-Center politics, which I’d never really been involved in before. So that was interesting times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were working the various work packages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going to reviews at the work packages, and it was clear that John [W.] Aaron was the Center Director and very possessive about Work Package Two. That was our Center’s. Was it John Aaron? No. Aaron Cohen was the Center Director. John Aaron was the Work Package Two Manager. So there was always just this intense battle about whose work package had what and who was going to be the overall integrator of the whole thing. It ended up they had to bring it all to Houston eventually and put it under a prime contractor. That was actually after I left, they did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think there was such a heated battle over Space Station and which Centers would have what work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.194570454201585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was more emphasis on it. As I said, somewhere around in there, the Center as a whole got serious about Station, and then there was a lot of battling—and there still is—about JSC’s piece versus Marshall’s piece [Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], versus Glenn’s piece [Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio]. So a big part of the job was getting involved in those inter-Center politics, which I’d never really been involved in before. So that was interesting times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were working the various work packages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going to reviews at the work packages, and it was clear that John [W.] Aaron was the Center Director and very possessive about Work Package Two. That was our Center’s. Was it John Aaron? No. Aaron Cohen was the Center Director. John Aaron was the Work Package Two Manager. So there was always just this intense battle about whose work package had what and who was going to be the overall integrator of the whole thing. It ended up they had to bring it all to Houston eventually and put it under a prime contractor. That was actually after I left, they did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think there was such a heated battle over Space Station and which Centers would have what work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it’s all politics and jobs and careers. You know the Center rivalry between Houston and Marshall goes back to Apollo. They never did really get along then. [Wernher] von Braun and Chris Kraft, the battle of the giants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any major changes made to the Space Station while you were working in this position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.216189393557315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going to reviews at the work packages, and it was clear that John [W.] Aaron was the Center Director and very possessive about Work Package Two. That was our Center’s. Was it John Aaron? No. Aaron Cohen was the Center Director. John Aaron was the Work Package Two Manager. So there was always just this intense battle about whose work package had what and who was going to be the overall integrator of the whole thing. It ended up they had to bring it all to Houston eventually and put it under a prime contractor. That was actually after I left, they did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think there was such a heated battle over Space Station and which Centers would have what work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it’s all politics and jobs and careers. You know the Center rivalry between Houston and Marshall goes back to Apollo. They never did really get along then. [Wernher] von Braun and Chris Kraft, the battle of the giants."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any major changes made to the Space Station while you were working in this position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It kept getting smaller and smaller. We discarded the dual keel as being impractical. Baselined EVA. The big concern was how many spacewalks it took, and a big concern was there’s no way to do that many spacewalks. I think in the end we’ve probably done more than we said was undoable, but at that time people were very reluctant about it. When I was flying, you didn’t do a spacewalk unless it was really a very serious problem you were trying to fix, so I never got to do one. I got to train as the EVA crewman on two of those three flights, but I never got to do a real spacewalk. So that was a change. So, how long did I do that? I did it for about a year, and then I had to get back to training for my last flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don’t you tell me about that last flight. A little different from your other missions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.129842087421602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To the extent we actually fly it. You tell the computer what to do and it does it. And keep all the other systems running. Gardner and I were the main plumbers. We had a major toilet problem, and we had to get involved in that. But that was a fun flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were the two astronomers you were working with on that flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, NASA crew Mission Specialists, we had Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker and Jeff [Jeffrey A.] Hoffman, so Jeff was with me, and then we had two Payload Specialists that had helped develop the telescopes. Sam [Samuel T.] Durrance was on my team and Ron [Ronald A.] Parise was on the other team. This was ASTRO-1. It was actually also supposed to be the next flight after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . It would have flown in, I guess, February of ’86 if it had been—so I like to say I flew both flights after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other than maneuvering the Orbiter, did you have any other duties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, fixing the toilet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time did that take?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.144268986024002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, NASA crew Mission Specialists, we had Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker and Jeff [Jeffrey A.] Hoffman, so Jeff was with me, and then we had two Payload Specialists that had helped develop the telescopes. Sam [Samuel T.] Durrance was on my team and Ron [Ronald A.] Parise was on the other team. This was ASTRO-1. It was actually also supposed to be the next flight after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . It would have flown in, I guess, February of ’86 if it had been—so I like to say I flew both flights after\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other than maneuvering the Orbiter, did you have any other duties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, fixing the toilet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time did that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was messy. It was plugged up, and we had to stow the waste from the waste tank into these plastic bags and seal them up. It was a mess. It was stinky. It was not a glamorous spaceflight. I don’t know, we spent half a day worrying about that. What else did I do? There wasn’t a lot to do. We had some medical experiments we did. That was mostly pre-flight and post-flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.160298873360002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, fixing the toilet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time did that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was messy. It was plugged up, and we had to stow the waste from the waste tank into these plastic bags and seal them up. It was a mess. It was stinky. It was not a glamorous spaceflight. I don’t know, we spent half a day worrying about that. What else did I do? There wasn’t a lot to do. We had some medical experiments we did. That was mostly pre-flight and post-flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t. I think that was on the flight. I think that was Ron Parise’s thing, actually. He was a HAM operator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys take what folks had learned on 41-D? They also had a problem with the waste collection system."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.289220970400002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was messy. It was plugged up, and we had to stow the waste from the waste tank into these plastic bags and seal them up. It was a mess. It was stinky. It was not a glamorous spaceflight. I don’t know, we spent half a day worrying about that. What else did I do? There wasn’t a lot to do. We had some medical experiments we did. That was mostly pre-flight and post-flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t. I think that was on the flight. I think that was Ron Parise’s thing, actually. He was a HAM operator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys take what folks had learned on 41-D? They also had a problem with the waste collection system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. So the normal way to empty these tanks was to dump it overboard in the vacuum of space, but to keep that nozzle from freezing up, there was a heater that had failed, so the nozzle was frozen shut, closed, so we couldn’t dump the waste tank, was the issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work at all with people at Marshall or were you primarily just working as the Flight Engineer and then [Shuttle operator]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.543578856000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t. I think that was on the flight. I think that was Ron Parise’s thing, actually. He was a HAM operator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys take what folks had learned on 41-D? They also had a problem with the waste collection system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. So the normal way to empty these tanks was to dump it overboard in the vacuum of space, but to keep that nozzle from freezing up, there was a heater that had failed, so the nozzle was frozen shut, closed, so we couldn’t dump the waste tank, was the issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work at all with people at Marshall or were you primarily just working as the Flight Engineer and then [Shuttle operator]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I backed up the guys that were dealing with the instruments, but never directly at Marshall. The simulations, we were involved with Marshall. But I didn’t make a bunch of trips there, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any Earth observations on board?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.937309840000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. So the normal way to empty these tanks was to dump it overboard in the vacuum of space, but to keep that nozzle from freezing up, there was a heater that had failed, so the nozzle was frozen shut, closed, so we couldn’t dump the waste tank, was the issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work at all with people at Marshall or were you primarily just working as the Flight Engineer and then [Shuttle operator]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I backed up the guys that were dealing with the instruments, but never directly at Marshall. The simulations, we were involved with Marshall. But I didn’t make a bunch of trips there, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any Earth observations on board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that flight. We weren’t pointed at the Earth very much, which was a little unusual, because the other flights, unless you had a reason to be at some other attitude, your payload bay down at the Earth all the time. This one, we were pointed at the stars, so we could be, depending on the target, any attitude. So that was a little different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys landed at night."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.263677600000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I backed up the guys that were dealing with the instruments, but never directly at Marshall. The simulations, we were involved with Marshall. But I didn’t make a bunch of trips there, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any Earth observations on board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that flight. We weren’t pointed at the Earth very much, which was a little unusual, because the other flights, unless you had a reason to be at some other attitude, your payload bay down at the Earth all the time. This one, we were pointed at the stars, so we could be, depending on the target, any attitude. So that was a little different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys landed at night."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Landed at night at Edwards [Air Force Base, California]. That was interesting. So that entry was a little more colorful, I think, because it was in the dark. The landing itself was hard to see. So I hoped Vance was going to the right place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have in mind, when you were up for this last mission, that this would be your last flight, that you would be leaving NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.181864000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not that flight. We weren’t pointed at the Earth very much, which was a little unusual, because the other flights, unless you had a reason to be at some other attitude, your payload bay down at the Earth all the time. This one, we were pointed at the stars, so we could be, depending on the target, any attitude. So that was a little different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You guys landed at night."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Landed at night at Edwards [Air Force Base, California]. That was interesting. So that entry was a little more colorful, I think, because it was in the dark. The landing itself was hard to see. So I hoped Vance was going to the right place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have in mind, when you were up for this last mission, that this would be your last flight, that you would be leaving NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not so much. I was thinking about my career, and I had a desire to have a career in industry and do something else, but I also wanted to help build the Space Station, and so I said, “Well, I can’t wait forever to build the Space Station. If it looks like it’s going to be too much longer, I need to go ahead and try to get into industry.” As it turned out, I had an opportunity to join a small entrepreneurial company that was just getting started. I got a call from Chet [Chester M.] Lee, who was an old-time NASA guy, and he was the Vice President in SPACEHAB, and called me shortly after I got back from that flight. Actually, the first call was before I left. He left me a message saying, “Please call.” I returned the call after that flight and had some dialogue in that spring. Station was having trouble, and it looked like it was the right time, so I left the following June after that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And since then you’ve gone on to work with a number of NASA contractors."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 9.09096, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Landed at night at Edwards [Air Force Base, California]. That was interesting. So that entry was a little more colorful, I think, because it was in the dark. The landing itself was hard to see. So I hoped Vance was going to the right place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have in mind, when you were up for this last mission, that this would be your last flight, that you would be leaving NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not so much. I was thinking about my career, and I had a desire to have a career in industry and do something else, but I also wanted to help build the Space Station, and so I said, “Well, I can’t wait forever to build the Space Station. If it looks like it’s going to be too much longer, I need to go ahead and try to get into industry.” As it turned out, I had an opportunity to join a small entrepreneurial company that was just getting started. I got a call from Chet [Chester M.] Lee, who was an old-time NASA guy, and he was the Vice President in SPACEHAB, and called me shortly after I got back from that flight. Actually, the first call was before I left. He left me a message saying, “Please call.” I returned the call after that flight and had some dialogue in that spring. Station was having trouble, and it looked like it was the right time, so I left the following June after that flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And since then you’ve gone on to work with a number of NASA contractors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just SPACEHAB and Boeing, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you do for SPACEHAB, and what are you currently doing for Boeing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8160000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just SPACEHAB and Boeing, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you do for SPACEHAB, and what are you currently doing for Boeing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So at SPACEHAB I was the Operations Director for our initial missions. We flew a module research addition to the middeck in the payload bay. It was never a primary mission; it was always tied to other missions. So I got involved in that in the early days of planning the mission and building the systems, so I was making sure the systems were built correctly so the astronauts could operate them and meet all NASA’s requirements.\\n\\n After a couple of years of that, I got involved in planning for the next series of missions which we did, which was to turn that research module into a cargo module to support NASA missions to the Russian Mir Station and later the International Space Station. I was involved in those concepts and developing all the systems. So I sort of got into systems development and program management, and that’s what I did in my last five years at SPACEHAB, I would say.\\n\\n And then came to Boeing a little over five years ago, where I’ve done business development, which is really trying to predict where NASA will need help, what kind of things they’ll need to carry out their missions, and position Boeing to be able to help them and, oh, by the way, get paid for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have a couple of questions that we always like to ask people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So at SPACEHAB I was the Operations Director for our initial missions. We flew a module research addition to the middeck in the payload bay. It was never a primary mission; it was always tied to other missions. So I got involved in that in the early days of planning the mission and building the systems, so I was making sure the systems were built correctly so the astronauts could operate them and meet all NASA’s requirements.\\n\\n After a couple of years of that, I got involved in planning for the next series of missions which we did, which was to turn that research module into a cargo module to support NASA missions to the Russian Mir Station and later the International Space Station. I was involved in those concepts and developing all the systems. So I sort of got into systems development and program management, and that’s what I did in my last five years at SPACEHAB, I would say.\\n\\n And then came to Boeing a little over five years ago, where I’ve done business development, which is really trying to predict where NASA will need help, what kind of things they’ll need to carry out their missions, and position Boeing to be able to help them and, oh, by the way, get paid for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have a couple of questions that we always like to ask people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most challenging assignment? I’m trying to make sure I got the question right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your greatest challenge while working for the agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most challenging assignment? I’m trying to make sure I got the question right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your greatest challenge while working for the agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the obvious one for me would be to say the Return to Flight mission, but from what we actually did, there really wasn’t much to that mission. We had to fly it successfully and, as Dan said, we couldn’t screw it up. But in terms of difficulty or complexity, it was really simpler than my first mission or my last mission. The first mission is always personally the big milestone. After that, it’s always, “What am I going to do to follow that one?” And my first mission was just incredible, with, you know, the ability to contribute personally, as we’ve described. That was the most rewarding part of our job at NASA. If not the most important milestone, certainly the most rewarding, because we really had an influence on the mission design. So I don’t know if that’s an answer that fills the square, but it’s some kind of answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you also say that that’s your most significant accomplishment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00339:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most challenging assignment? I’m trying to make sure I got the question right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your greatest challenge while working for the agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the obvious one for me would be to say the Return to Flight mission, but from what we actually did, there really wasn’t much to that mission. We had to fly it successfully and, as Dan said, we couldn’t screw it up. But in terms of difficulty or complexity, it was really simpler than my first mission or my last mission. The first mission is always personally the big milestone. After that, it’s always, “What am I going to do to follow that one?” And my first mission was just incredible, with, you know, the ability to contribute personally, as we’ve described. That was the most rewarding part of our job at NASA. If not the most important milestone, certainly the most rewarding, because we really had an influence on the mission design. So I don’t know if that’s an answer that fills the square, but it’s some kind of answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you also say that that’s your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the years I worked for NASA? Yes, probably. Probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think there’s anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to talk about today or you think we should talk about, any lessons learned that you want to pass on, or any anecdotes you want to share?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00511:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so. I won't claim any big part in that, but the 1978 class was the first astronaut class that I helped with the selection process. Of course, one of our going-in positions on that class was that we need to expand our horizons. We need to include women in the program, and how do we do that. We worked a lot of things to try to get a lot of women to apply, and to be sure that they were considered all along the way. We actually selected the first six women astronauts and proved that it was a good idea. It was a good idea. Back then, there were some women managers at the Center, but none in really high levels. That started to change, and I was just noticing the other day, everybody I work for is a woman, and I have no problems with that at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was about to say now you have a brand-new boss that's not only female but a former astronaut [Ellen Ochoa]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A former astronaut, yes. I knew her when she was starry-eyed and a branch chief out at the [NASA] Ames Research Center [Moffett Field, California], so it's really fun in that regard. They're all great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We just want to go on record to thank you for being the wind beneath our wings because without you, we would not have been able to survive the last years, and we know that. We know that, and we're just grateful we didn't have to go to you too many times to help bail us out of any kind of problem, but we always knew that you were at the other end of the phone, so we really appreciate you being such a part—and not running from Mr. Abbey and telling him, \"Oh, I'm not doing this project!\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "That wasn't an option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're glad. We're glad that that was a condition of employment for you, so we appreciate all the years together. We hope we have many more."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00511:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A former astronaut, yes. I knew her when she was starry-eyed and a branch chief out at the [NASA] Ames Research Center [Moffett Field, California], so it's really fun in that regard. They're all great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We just want to go on record to thank you for being the wind beneath our wings because without you, we would not have been able to survive the last years, and we know that. We know that, and we're just grateful we didn't have to go to you too many times to help bail us out of any kind of problem, but we always knew that you were at the other end of the phone, so we really appreciate you being such a part—and not running from Mr. Abbey and telling him, \"Oh, I'm not doing this project!\""}, {"role": "user", "content": "That wasn't an option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're glad. We're glad that that was a condition of employment for you, so we appreciate all the years together. We hope we have many more."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love it. Yes, I absolutely love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you for coming in this morning."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00511:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That wasn't an option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're glad. We're glad that that was a condition of employment for you, so we appreciate all the years together. We hope we have many more."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love it. Yes, I absolutely love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you for coming in this morning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you for asking me to do the 1000th interview. That means a lot to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It means a lot to us. We appreciate it."}]}