[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had been down in Public Programs—I'm not sure—several years at least. I was wholly independent. Everybody else there was part of a staff. There was an Education staff. There was an Exhibit staff. And I was sort of solo. When they had to downsize, I was standing out like a sore thumb. They eliminated my job. It was a devastating thing. It was right at Christmas-time I remember. I didn't want to tell anybody. It was just terrible. I got through Christmas. I discovered or was told that I was going to bump—should I explain what bumping means?

[Assistant] I think so. Yeah.

[User] The way it works is since I had considerable years of public service, I would bump or take a position of someone with less service and that person would be out of a job or would bump somebody else. It just depended on how many years that person—how many years of service that person had. It turned out that I was going to bump a very good friend of mine, John Vernon, who was working at Suitland as an archivist but in the Records Center. By a stroke of good fortune, Jim Moore, who had not selected me for the promotion in Still Pictures saved me from being sent to Suitland. I somehow finagled an opening in Central Reference. I moved into that. Part of the reason was that at the time I was working on a genealogy slideshow, a way to introduce new genealogists to how you went about research, via a slideshow rather than having the staff explain it a hundred times over. That, of course, was a Central Reference function. So it made sense that I would go to Central Reference and finish that project, which I did.

[Assistant] Do you remember what year it was? You said it was right before Christmas.

[User] Eighty five, eighty six. Eighty four. Something like that. Certainly before ‘89. I know it was well before ‘89.

[Assistant] Okay. And I do have to ask. Is this when you had what is still the envy of folks who were around? The office above—was it above the old theater?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The way it works is since I had considerable years of public service, I would bump or take a position of someone with less service and that person would be out of a job or would bump somebody else. It just depended on how many years that person—how many years of service that person had. It turned out that I was going to bump a very good friend of mine, John Vernon, who was working at Suitland as an archivist but in the Records Center. By a stroke of good fortune, Jim Moore, who had not selected me for the promotion in Still Pictures saved me from being sent to Suitland. I somehow finagled an opening in Central Reference. I moved into that. Part of the reason was that at the time I was working on a genealogy slideshow, a way to introduce new genealogists to how you went about research, via a slideshow rather than having the staff explain it a hundred times over. That, of course, was a Central Reference function. So it made sense that I would go to Central Reference and finish that project, which I did.

[Assistant] Do you remember what year it was? You said it was right before Christmas.

[User] Eighty five, eighty six. Eighty four. Something like that. Certainly before ‘89. I know it was well before ‘89.

[Assistant] Okay. And I do have to ask. Is this when you had what is still the envy of folks who were around? The office above—was it above the old theater?

[User] [Laughs]

[Assistant] I have heard a lot about this office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some kind of plan. In other words, when you were evaluated, one of the elements of your evaluation—one of the major ones was how you were doing in public programs.

[Assistant] Oh, the performance review.

[User] Performance review. Thank you. Some people like that and some people said, hey, look, I'm an archivist. I'm not a salesperson. Most of them came around and it was terrific for me because that's what I did. They would call me up and they'd say we'd like to do an exhibit and there was a commemoration. I think it was the 50th anniversary of the first controlled, sustained nuclear reaction in Chicago and all the records were there. The San Francisco earthquake, 1906.

[Assistant] I think I remember mention of a Brown v. Board as well.

[User] Oh, yeah. Board of Education in Kansas City. We had the records for that. There were a lot of commemorations and some regions took the lead and I just helped. Others—I basically did the project for them and it was terrific. I always felt well-received by the staff in the regions. There was no—it was rare—one particular region wasn't too open. But everybody else welcomed me, thanked me for my advice, and I felt very needed and appreciated.

[Assistant] I do know, it was shortly before you retired, but you had a big role in the exhibit that was put on display in the new building that they built in Morrow, Georgia for the Atlanta region.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Performance review. Thank you. Some people like that and some people said, hey, look, I'm an archivist. I'm not a salesperson. Most of them came around and it was terrific for me because that's what I did. They would call me up and they'd say we'd like to do an exhibit and there was a commemoration. I think it was the 50th anniversary of the first controlled, sustained nuclear reaction in Chicago and all the records were there. The San Francisco earthquake, 1906.

[Assistant] I think I remember mention of a Brown v. Board as well.

[User] Oh, yeah. Board of Education in Kansas City. We had the records for that. There were a lot of commemorations and some regions took the lead and I just helped. Others—I basically did the project for them and it was terrific. I always felt well-received by the staff in the regions. There was no—it was rare—one particular region wasn't too open. But everybody else welcomed me, thanked me for my advice, and I felt very needed and appreciated.

[Assistant] I do know, it was shortly before you retired, but you had a big role in the exhibit that was put on display in the new building that they built in Morrow, Georgia for the Atlanta region.

[User] Right. That was, that was my last big project and you worked on it with me. And that, that was, that was just wonderful. The thing I remember most is that we did a section on prison records. Some federal penitentiary there in Georgia somewhere and we selected individual cases trying to come up with a variety of crimes from petty larceny to murder and everything in between including perpetrators of various races and backgrounds and ages. It came out really nicely and one morning I went in after the exhibit was up and the cleaning staff was looking at those panels saying things like, no, that, that boy was too young to be sent to prison. And really, really responding and I thought if you could get the cleaning staff interesting in the records that was top notch. That made me very, very happy.

[Assistant] Indeed. It's what the exhibit is meant to do. Isn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Every day was completely full. I'm from Spacelab world, and when you're working a Spacelab mission, you come off console totally drained, mentally and emotionally, basically, because for fourteen days you're just really running and going. When I started this I was going, "I'm going to be bored. You only talk to the crew twice a day." I mean, there's only contact with the crew ten minutes per orbit. That's really amazing. I thought, "Wow. There's too many people over there; we don't have enough to do. We're going to be sitting around a lot." That was not the case at all. [Laughter] We were all busy every minute from the time you walked in the door until the time you left in the evening, and sometimes it would get a little overwhelming, but really the workload was steady. It was like piecing together a jigsaw puzzle sometimes.\n\n I thought long-duration missions were going to really be boring compared to Spacelab, but it's not at all. Every day you had a new set of circumstances to deal with, and it tweaked stuff three weeks from now, and you'd have to roll it back in. We had really good support back here in Houston in the [Payload] Operations Support Center, and anytime we had something that was overwhelming, we said, "Hey, guys, you're just going to have to go work this out," and they would pick up the ball and run with it, and come back with a plan. So that's what kept the work from getting overwhelming. But we were busy every minute of every day, that's for sure.

[Assistant] How long were you there?

[User] I was there for a little over four months during the balmy months, September to February.

[Assistant] Didn't get a tan then, did you?

[User] No. Minus-36, I think, was the all-time low--Celsius. That was a little chilly.

[Assistant] Have a new wardrobe of winter clothing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there for a little over four months during the balmy months, September to February.

[Assistant] Didn't get a tan then, did you?

[User] No. Minus-36, I think, was the all-time low--Celsius. That was a little chilly.

[Assistant] Have a new wardrobe of winter clothing?

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I have some great coats that you don't get to use them here.

[Assistant] Tell us about the worst day that you can remember being the Ops Lead, because I know if they were all full, there had to maybe be one that was more full than the others.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Especially when Wendy was with us, you felt like you needed to bring her in in disguise or something, because the reporters knew who she was. It still was a necessary thing, because she needed to be kept informed, and we did our best job to do that, and she helped us a lot as well.

[Assistant] Did she continue assisting with the increment?

[User] Oh, yes, she was great. She helped during that six weeks when we were so stretched, plus she developed a plan of where to put stuff on orbit. You have stowage locations, but it changes from what we see. You just kind of make a best guess as to where to put stuff, but you can't tell them; they have to figure it out. So Wendy did all that for Dave. I mean, it was incredible. She put his stuff away in an organized fashion, and then the best thing she did was, she wrote it all down. It was very descriptive detail like, "Inside this panel on the left wall behind this cable." She even sent it down to us from the orbiter so that we knew right where everything was. That was probably a big help to Dave, because he said, "Patty, it's like trying to work in your closet," because there's just so much stuff everywhere. So we had a good description. Dave had the same piece of paper, but we were able to figure everything out from what Wendy had done. So she was a big help during that whole time.

[Assistant] We always see it as very busy, very serious work. Were there light moments?

[User] Oh, sure. Yes. There really are. Even with the Russians, we had celebrations. I mean, they have a lot of holidays. Women's Day is my favorite, of course.

[Assistant] Tell us why.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you do both, but having Americans there does help. Actually, it was really nice having Chris Flynn's wife, Alice, there because she and I, if I needed to go do something, she knew that town very well. I'd say, "Alice, I need this," or anybody on the team could say, "Alice, I don't have any socks. Do you know where to buy them?" and she would always go with us and help us out. She and I even did some sightseeing things together on my day off, and Chris would always be at work when I was off. You really need to enforce the buddy system there, definitely, for a lot of reasons, but having the Americans there, you always had somebody to go do something with. Very rarely did you strike out on your own. Having Alice there was a lot of fun. She even set up a tour for us one morning to go see the KGB Museum, and I would have never gotten to do that on my own. She would keep us apprised of what the embassy [had going on] was going.

[Assistant] Was it a little strange walking into that museum of something that at that time--

[User] Yes. You would think, "Wow. Who would ever expect you would be seeing this kind of stuff?"

[Assistant] So what's in there?

[User] A lot of history of the Stalin days, and how everything got started, and the purges. It would show pictures of these people and say, "These people were all killed." What was funny, the first part was they had a picture of each one of the directors of the KGB, and the guy who was doing the tour, he'd go, "Oh, this guy was director for six months, and then he was killed. And this guy was director for a year, and then he was killed. This guy--" Every single one of them had been rubbed out. [Laughter] That was probably the most amazing thing to me. Of our spies that they caught, they had how all they figured out they were spies. I mean, that was really fascinating.

[Assistant] Make sure you don't do any of those things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You would think, "Wow. Who would ever expect you would be seeing this kind of stuff?"

[Assistant] So what's in there?

[User] A lot of history of the Stalin days, and how everything got started, and the purges. It would show pictures of these people and say, "These people were all killed." What was funny, the first part was they had a picture of each one of the directors of the KGB, and the guy who was doing the tour, he'd go, "Oh, this guy was director for six months, and then he was killed. And this guy was director for a year, and then he was killed. This guy--" Every single one of them had been rubbed out. [Laughter] That was probably the most amazing thing to me. Of our spies that they caught, they had how all they figured out they were spies. I mean, that was really fascinating.

[Assistant] Make sure you don't do any of those things.

[User] Really.

[Assistant] Where else did you get to go while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of history of the Stalin days, and how everything got started, and the purges. It would show pictures of these people and say, "These people were all killed." What was funny, the first part was they had a picture of each one of the directors of the KGB, and the guy who was doing the tour, he'd go, "Oh, this guy was director for six months, and then he was killed. And this guy was director for a year, and then he was killed. This guy--" Every single one of them had been rubbed out. [Laughter] That was probably the most amazing thing to me. Of our spies that they caught, they had how all they figured out they were spies. I mean, that was really fascinating.

[Assistant] Make sure you don't do any of those things.

[User] Really.

[Assistant] Where else did you get to go while you were there?

[User] Oh, did the normal tourist things to Red Square and the Kremlin and the Armory. The Armory was fantastic. I've been in a lot of museums, but it was really pretty impressive. I liked going to some of the cathedrals; that was really interesting to me. We went to a couple of monasteries and stuff. I didn't have a lot of time for sightseeing, but I did get to do probably the big things, and that was fun.

[Assistant] And you did get to see Russian under the snow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, did the normal tourist things to Red Square and the Kremlin and the Armory. The Armory was fantastic. I've been in a lot of museums, but it was really pretty impressive. I liked going to some of the cathedrals; that was really interesting to me. We went to a couple of monasteries and stuff. I didn't have a lot of time for sightseeing, but I did get to do probably the big things, and that was fun.

[Assistant] And you did get to see Russian under the snow.

[User] Definitely in the snow. I got to see it in the summer, too, but in the snow, too. I actually like the snow. It was pretty.

[Assistant] Picturesque.

[User] It is, very. The summer's kind of neat because it stays light so long, but it's also kind of dusty. But the winter, I really like the winter there.

[Assistant] After going to all those museums and seeing all that history, then you would walk back into the TsUP and you would be there working with them, did you find that to be a little bit ironic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Definitely in the snow. I got to see it in the summer, too, but in the snow, too. I actually like the snow. It was pretty.

[Assistant] Picturesque.

[User] It is, very. The summer's kind of neat because it stays light so long, but it's also kind of dusty. But the winter, I really like the winter there.

[Assistant] After going to all those museums and seeing all that history, then you would walk back into the TsUP and you would be there working with them, did you find that to be a little bit ironic?

[User] Actually, learning more about he history gave me a better appreciation for their attitudes toward things, more sympathetic to, okay, I understand why they approach things this way because of learning about their past and the way things were, and it kind of carries over a little bit. They do have a different approach than we do. It's hard for me to explain, but learning more about their history, I think, helped me with that and how to approach them on some things. It was a really good exchange. They've learned a lot about us, too. Sometimes I think that's a bad thing, because they're like finding our weaknesses. No, I'm just kidding.

[Assistant] Well, we even do that here with our own people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've only been back in Houston a brief time. I've been here probably a month now after my transfer. But actually our interpreters are coming this weekend, so this will be my first opportunity to see them in the States. Our interpreters are terrific over there, and they become your good friends, because you spend so much time with them. A couple of them would even take us to museums and go with us, go out to eat with us, and that made it nice because they take you places you might not know about, and they could definitely order something that you wanted you knew what you were getting. Then one of them had us out to his dacha, and just had a great feast for us out there. He and his wife just really had a great time for us. They're going to be here, so we're going to get to pay them back now. So it's going to be fun the next couple of weeks while our interpreters for Phase 2 are here.

[Assistant] I hope you have warned them about the heat. [Laughter]

[User] Yes. I even told one of them on the loops yesterday that it's going to be a shocker. "It's going to be so hot when you get here." One of them told me, he said, "If I ever move to the U.S., I'm going to live where it never gets cold." I said, "Well, Houston would do it." I think they're kind of intrigued by it [but] they're going to die when they get here.

[Assistant] No matter how long you've been here, you just don't get used to it.

[User] No.

[Assistant]
Paul, do you have any questions for Patty?

Tell me about visiting with your co-workers. Did you get to go to their homes? Do you have a Russian best friend?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and it makes it hard when you don't have the language skills. Victor Blagov gave me, right before I left, he gives me this book that says, Your First Thousand Russian Words, and it's a children's book. He said, "Here, learn fifty words a day." It was a big joke. He presented that to me right before I left. His son actually came in the TsUP one day and was sitting down on the console, and he goes, "So you live here and you don't speak Russian." I said, "No." I said, "I can speak enough to order in a restaurant and buy my groceries and get around town with taxi drivers and stuff, and that's it, but I'm not conversational at all." He says, "I don't know how you do it. How do you talk to my father?" I said, "In English." He said, "His English isn't that good." His son's English is great. "His English isn't that good." I said, "We get by. We get by." That was probably my biggest regret, is that I could have communicated better.

[Assistant] Thanks for communicating with us today.

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] We're glad you're back in Houston, even though it's hot.

[User] Yes, really.

[Assistant] It's not Huntsville anymore, is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No problem.

[Assistant] We're glad you're back in Houston, even though it's hot.

[User] Yes, really.

[Assistant] It's not Huntsville anymore, is it?

[User] No, it's actually been nice weather up there. All my friends call me from up there and go, "Yeah, it's seventy degrees today." But it's also been raining like crazy up there.

[Assistant] Well, we're glad to have you, and we're glad that you spent some time with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, really.

[Assistant] It's not Huntsville anymore, is it?

[User] No, it's actually been nice weather up there. All my friends call me from up there and go, "Yeah, it's seventy degrees today." But it's also been raining like crazy up there.

[Assistant] Well, we're glad to have you, and we're glad that you spent some time with us.

[User] Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's actually been nice weather up there. All my friends call me from up there and go, "Yeah, it's seventy degrees today." But it's also been raining like crazy up there.

[Assistant] Well, we're glad to have you, and we're glad that you spent some time with us.

[User] Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Assistant] Anything else you want to add?

[User] Not that I can think of.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
That worked out beautifully. [Laughter] The supervisor’s name was Jim Tehann [phonetic], and if I see him next time, I’m going to say, “Boy, Jim, you did me a big favor by not giving me that position.” But at the time, it meant a promotion, see, and I was a little upset about it.

Wasn’t NACA out there kind of a stepchild and left alone out in the desert because nobody much wanted anything to do with the desert? And you guys became such a close-knit group, and family-wise, it was a very close-knit group then.

Yes, it was.

It was small, and they had all sorts of family things, and everybody knew everybody, until it started growing faster and faster.

Yes, just outside of NACA, in our personal lives, we knew everybody, and we had our parties. We’d have the X-15 flight party, or we’d have the Station parties, and all the wives were involved. No, it was very family oriented back then.

[Assistant] Were the parties held on base? Like the X-15 parties, were they held there or were they held off-site?

[User]
Oh yes, you wouldn’t dare hold them any of those parties we had on the base. [Laughs] Woops.

They were held at one of the local watering holes, usually.

[Assistant] Yes, it was at Roseman. What was the—Juanita’s at Roseman. That was a great place to have—

[User]
That and The Office.

—yes, and The Office—have parties, after-flight parties. But no, you wouldn’t dare have it on Base at night. [Laughs] But we had, what was it, the NACA—

We had bowling teams and baseball teams.

Yes, and then we even had parties out at [Florence Lowe]\n\n “Pancho” [Barnes’] Happy Bottom Riding Club. [Laughs] Now, I’m sure you’ve heard of Pancho’s Happy Bottom Riding Club.

[Assistant] Well, you could tell me your experiences there. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, everybody was there. There was no difference, and everybody was there.

[Assistant] Well, there were a lot of successful days at the Center, but there were those days that were bad, when you had bad news came back. Can you share how the Center handled that, and how long it took for the morale to feel like it was good to work again?

[User] Are you talking about when we’d lose a pilot?

[Assistant] When you’d lose a pilot.

[User]
Well, we lost Joe [Joseph A.] Walker, okay, and that was an unfortunate accident, and I think everybody felt pretty bad about that, because it didn’t need to happen. But I guess you can probably say that about any pilot. But we only lost—we lost Joe Walker and there was Captain Apt. He was an Air Force pilot. Boy, I tell you Rebecca, I don’t remember us losing—we lost another pilot, but he was flying a sailplane up there at California City. It wasn’t even on a project at the Center.

Bruce [A. Peterson] got injured, but he came back from that.

[Assistant] Yes, he came back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we went to the Smithsonian, and I’m going in there, and gee, the Smithsonian’s got the X-15 hanging up there. The Phase Two is hanging up there, and there’s the X-1. There’s the Lifting Body M2F3. What other airplane was hanging up there? There was five airplanes. The 818 and the [F]-104-818 was hanging up there. They’re considering that enough of a history to be hanging in the Smithsonian. Now, I worked on some of those things. Then you can get kind of emotional about it. You think, “Wow!”

[Assistant] Quite a success.

[User] Yes. So anyway, that portion of it, working in history, I’m sure the family. “Well, gee, my dad did this.” I can hear them now. “My dad worked on that, or did this.” They’ll take a little bit of pride in that. But when you’re doing it, Rebecca, no big deal.

[Assistant] Doing your job. Is there some things, Patricia, you can think of that maybe we didn’t talk about today or some other things that come to mind that you thought about that you’d like to mention?

[User] I can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] Thanks for bringing up the family atmosphere, too, because it tells something about the Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So anyway, that portion of it, working in history, I’m sure the family. “Well, gee, my dad did this.” I can hear them now. “My dad worked on that, or did this.” They’ll take a little bit of pride in that. But when you’re doing it, Rebecca, no big deal.

[Assistant] Doing your job. Is there some things, Patricia, you can think of that maybe we didn’t talk about today or some other things that come to mind that you thought about that you’d like to mention?

[User] I can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] Thanks for bringing up the family atmosphere, too, because it tells something about the Center.

[User]
Well, it was, and I’ll have to say that when he talks about it, when NACA became NASA and as it grew, and I guess it’s because there’s more personnel getting involved, so then it has to become a whole department, and that’s the beginning of this close-knit group. I’m not saying it’s wrong or right, it’s just that the beginning of a different atmosphere. Then the parties got separated. You didn’t interact with the people as much, and, of course, there were more people. So that was the change in dynamics that we were kind of sad to see change, but that was just the way it was.

It all kind of started with the X-15 Program, I think, after the X-15 and after the Lifting Bodies. After those two programs, then you saw a little bit more of a separation or whatever. But it was just—any organization that expands and gets bigger becomes a bureaucracy, and efficiency goes down. Then I’d always hear people say, “Well, you know, it isn’t like it used to be.” Well, hell, no, it’s not what it used to be. You don’t want it to be like it was or like it used to be, because if it was, you’re not making any progress.

[Assistant] No. You’re back in that hangar where there’s no air. [Laughter] Back in that wire cage with all the dust.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So those things change.

Yes. But anyway, I don’t know if you’re interested in looking at any—I have my old pay records and stuff like that, back, that shows you the progression. I don’t know if that’s any interest or not.

[Assistant] Well, not even maybe for us, but it’s certainly something to talk with the History Office at Dryden about, because I’m sure they have an archives that they would like to keep some of those things. It’s getting harder and harder to find older items, because a lot of times people don’t know what to do with them, so they throw them away.

[User]
They just toss them, yes.

Yes. I’m sure most of that stuff has been tossed and like that, but I kept all my wage increases and all my promotions and all that stuff. I’ve got it all. But you’re right. I mean, probably Dryden. Of course, I’ve got a ton of pictures. You’ve already got a ton of pictures in there, and probably all of them filed there at NACA, anyways.

[Assistant] Could be. Could be. We just don’t know, because sometimes when budgets start to [decrease], History Offices start to disappear. Or they become shoved under something else, and then things aren’t kept or things get lost or they get moved to another place. So you could at least—and Betty [Love’s] a good person. She knows what’s in that office. She could tell you if some of that stuff is worth filing there. And if not, you let us know, and we’ll see if the Headquarters Office wants some of it. So we’ll do what we can.\n\n Well, thanks for talking with me today.

[User] Oh, you’re welcome.

[Assistant] I appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He came in 1992.

[Assistant]
So that’s much later.

So the Earth System Science had been actually up and going.

[User] We had to work hard until 1990 to get a new start. Once we got a new start and we issued an AO, actually, I think we issued the AO when we got it put in the budget, when we knew it was put into the next year’s budget and had a good chance of passing. We got that information from sources. We had to reduce it some, but okay. We could do that. So anyway, we issued the AO then. Then we got the new start in 1990 (FY 1991), but that meant we didn’t really get any hard money. We had been putting a little bit of money in it, a few million.

[Assistant] Was this part of the Global Change Research Program?

[User] Well, the Global Change Research Program is a bigger program than Earth Systems Science, or than EOS. We’re talking about EOS here for the most part. Global Change we’ll go into next time. There’s a CEOS [Committee on Earth Observing Satellites] that we’ll go into next time.\n\n This is the International Committee on Earth Observing Satellites. What we tried to do was set up, what was mandated by Congress and by the President, that we set up an international Earth observation group to discuss internationally how we could cooperate, which we’d been doing for a few years anyway. That was a group that met twice a year, most of the time, sometimes more frequently, to discuss the international cooperation aspects of the program. Global change got to be a great big thing involving a lot of countries and UNEP [United Nations Environment Programme]. All of these things going on at once required a lot of time and travel. Dixon Butler, [Robert T.] Bob Watson, Stan Wilson, Lisa Shaffer, Peter Backlund, John Theon, other members of my staff and Brent Smith and other members of the International Affairs [Office] were an integral part of these international discussions and agreements.

[Assistant] When 1990 came, it was almost a new beginning for you in a lot of ways.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let’s see. My background is that I have a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Washington in Seattle. In between those degrees, I spent about 5 years in the Navy—4 or 5 years in the Navy. I’m still a pilot, and I have great empathy, of course, for flying, pilots in general; and flying in particular is one of my great loves and always has been.

[Assistant] Did you ever want to be an astronaut?

[User] I tried to see if I could get into the astronaut slots after I was working on Apollo. But, George [M.] Low was not convinced that I wouldn’t do more for the program where I was than trying to aspire to be an astronaut.

[Assistant] Now let’s talk about where you were and what you did when first you came aboard NASA. Can you describe what happened?

[User] Well, my first interfaces with the NASA are back in the early part of the sixties. The Space Division, at the time, of North American Aviation was running into a number of technical problems and program problems on the Paraglider Program [part of the Gemini Program], and they were looking for strengths, additions to keep that program moving.

[Assistant] You know there maybe those, George, it suddenly comes to mind, that might not even know that once upon a time there was a paraglider and that there was a chance that Gemini might land on dry land instead of the ocean. You might want to spell that out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I tried to see if I could get into the astronaut slots after I was working on Apollo. But, George [M.] Low was not convinced that I wouldn’t do more for the program where I was than trying to aspire to be an astronaut.

[Assistant] Now let’s talk about where you were and what you did when first you came aboard NASA. Can you describe what happened?

[User] Well, my first interfaces with the NASA are back in the early part of the sixties. The Space Division, at the time, of North American Aviation was running into a number of technical problems and program problems on the Paraglider Program [part of the Gemini Program], and they were looking for strengths, additions to keep that program moving.

[Assistant] You know there maybe those, George, it suddenly comes to mind, that might not even know that once upon a time there was a paraglider and that there was a chance that Gemini might land on dry land instead of the ocean. You might want to spell that out.

[User] That’s right. I really should say that that was associated with the Gemini Program. The Program Manager of the NASA at the time was Jim [James A.] Chamberlin; and Jim Chamberlin felt that it was not the right thing to do to land man on the ground on Earth. He wanted to land them with dignity. Landing them on the Earth, on land, like the Russians do, is not very dignified; and the water is just a little bit more dignified, but not much more. So we were trying to provide a Paraglider Program that permitted a little more dignified landing, a little more controlled landing, and one that was more accurate and would place us closer to the recovery ships.

[Assistant] Would there be any relationship between the paraglider and its design at that time and the sort of winged spacecraft that eventually the Shuttle became?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my first interfaces with the NASA are back in the early part of the sixties. The Space Division, at the time, of North American Aviation was running into a number of technical problems and program problems on the Paraglider Program [part of the Gemini Program], and they were looking for strengths, additions to keep that program moving.

[Assistant] You know there maybe those, George, it suddenly comes to mind, that might not even know that once upon a time there was a paraglider and that there was a chance that Gemini might land on dry land instead of the ocean. You might want to spell that out.

[User] That’s right. I really should say that that was associated with the Gemini Program. The Program Manager of the NASA at the time was Jim [James A.] Chamberlin; and Jim Chamberlin felt that it was not the right thing to do to land man on the ground on Earth. He wanted to land them with dignity. Landing them on the Earth, on land, like the Russians do, is not very dignified; and the water is just a little bit more dignified, but not much more. So we were trying to provide a Paraglider Program that permitted a little more dignified landing, a little more controlled landing, and one that was more accurate and would place us closer to the recovery ships.

[Assistant] Would there be any relationship between the paraglider and its design at that time and the sort of winged spacecraft that eventually the Shuttle became?

[User] I don’t think there’s too much of an association with winged spacecraft. There’s a lot of association with the people that fly the so-called maneuverable wings—the Rogallo wings [named for Francis M. Rogallo, a Langley engineer who developed the initial design]. So, Rogallo was behind the wing that we were trying to fly on the Gemini.

[Assistant] The Rogallo wing. Okay. Let’s talk about it then. You had problems in trying to develop that wing, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think there’s too much of an association with winged spacecraft. There’s a lot of association with the people that fly the so-called maneuverable wings—the Rogallo wings [named for Francis M. Rogallo, a Langley engineer who developed the initial design]. So, Rogallo was behind the wing that we were trying to fly on the Gemini.

[Assistant] The Rogallo wing. Okay. Let’s talk about it then. You had problems in trying to develop that wing, didn’t you?

[User] Yes, we did. We had a lot of problems trying to develop the wing, and I won’t get into the detailed, technical problems with it. I think there are some interesting aspects of it, from a program point of view. You asked me for my association with the NASA. I found that the NASA hierarchy got into the depths of a lot of these programs and program problems, which was very refreshing to me. I thought that was an excellent thing to do. I think, on industry’s side, there should be more of that, on the top management side, of getting more deeply into problems—particularly where there are critical problems. For example, Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth and I spent a lot of time together on the paraglider, as did some of the people that were surrounding him at the time like Walt [Walter C.] Williams and Jim [James C.] Elms and others that were really trying to participate and help with the program. I thought that was excellent from the ideas that they brought forth technically; it was also great for the troops, with respect to seeing that much interest on the part of a high-level customer.

[Assistant] Do you think that today, with privatization, NASA perhaps has gone even one step beyond that?

[User] Beyond that? I’m not quite sure how you mean that.

[Assistant] Well, I mean by that, that NASA now seems to be relinquishing control of some facets of its space program to private industry, turning more and more of those controls over to industry, which, of course, was the role that you played earlier on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Beyond that? I’m not quite sure how you mean that.

[Assistant] Well, I mean by that, that NASA now seems to be relinquishing control of some facets of its space program to private industry, turning more and more of those controls over to industry, which, of course, was the role that you played earlier on.

[User] Well, I think that trying to commercialize space is excellent. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that thrust. I think the timing of it is critical. You can’t hurry it too fast. I think the NASA did try to hurry that too fast in the case of Jim [James] Beggs and the Shuttle processing activities at the Cape, for example. Good idea but too early, I think. I think that the groundwork for really commercializing space—things like space vehicles—hasn’t really been laid yet with the government. I think we’ve got a long way to go before it’s clear how industry can have the freedom and the flexibility to operate these machines while at the same time making a profit without losing sight of the safety factors.

[Assistant] Back in the days of the paraglider, of course, you were trying to create something new—a different landing system for spacecraft. Were there opponents to what you were trying to do within NASA?

[User] Oh, yeah, there were opponents, and particularly as we experienced technical difficulties with the system; as you might expect, that always occurs. We were trying to do a very difficult thing of packaging a very large inner tube in a very small bottle, if you [will], like a genie in a bottle, and trying to get it extracted with a tumbling, bowl-like spacecraft that was heavy compared to the wing loadings. So, we had a difficult time trying to make those deployments, a number of which were successful; but to make them repeatable in the same fashion each and every time. Not too different—dissimilar to parachutes, but with a little more vigor I’m afraid [laughs], in some of the deployments.

[Assistant] As you look back on it, what was the greatest technical issue that you had to face? And were you able to overcome it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the greatest technical problem that we had with the thing, it’s really not too deep a technical problem. The deployment’s pretty difficult. Getting the wing packed and getting the control cables and whatnot packed in such a way that they don’t damage the inner tube-like structure, as I said—the wing beams, for example—and packed at the densities necessary to get them in the containing volume that we had available to us, was extremely difficult. And to provide that system with the long life that would be necessary in a stowed configuration, so you didn’t have seams come apart and that sort of thing; it was really a kind of a materials problem, a life problem, and, clearly, a deployment problem—a number of which have been addressed and solved in a little less dynamic fashion with the controllable parachutes that you see today. And as a matter of fact, some of the NASA people—Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth, among others—were suggesting that we give a lot of consideration to the steerable parachutes at the time; the controllable parachutes. But the parachutes at that time weren’t as far along; and, of course, like every major program, space program, we didn’t have much time. And we were already pretty well embarked along a given course, so we really didn’t have the flexibility to move much in that regard.

[Assistant] You were facing the deadlines of: How do we send men to the Moon and get them back alive?

[User] Well, and the fundamentals of the Gemini schedule, which really had bigger problems on its hand than just the paraglider. And the paraglider was an interesting adjunct to it, but not a necessary one. In other words, parachutes would still do the job for Gemini, so they could always fall back on that when times got tough and when dollars got tight.

[Assistant] Well, eventually, NASA decided not to use the paraglider in its spaceflight program.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] That must’ve created some problems at North American, didn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, and the fundamentals of the Gemini schedule, which really had bigger problems on its hand than just the paraglider. And the paraglider was an interesting adjunct to it, but not a necessary one. In other words, parachutes would still do the job for Gemini, so they could always fall back on that when times got tough and when dollars got tight.

[Assistant] Well, eventually, NASA decided not to use the paraglider in its spaceflight program.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] That must’ve created some problems at North American, didn’t it?

[User] Well, let me say about problems. Two things about the paraglider at North American. It created a problem, but it was a small program. It didn’t create large layoffs or anything like that, that a big program would. The program was concurrent with the Apollo Program; and the Apollo Program was experiencing a lot of growing pains at that time; and it turned out, interestingly enough since both were in the same Division, that the Paraglider Program broke some ice for the Apollo Program, all the way up and down the line, when it came to inspection systems, when it came to procurement systems, when it came to control systems. Paraglider was finding the problems in those systems before the Apollo was, because the Apollo hadn’t reached that stage of hardware that the paraglider had. So, when I was running the Paraglider Program, we were really being a scout, so to speak, in cleaning up some of the basic problems we had in our fundamental process systems at the Division. And I think that was very helpful to Apollo, albeit painful.

[Assistant] Matter of fact, didn’t North American continue with the paraglider on its own after NASA dropped the program? According to my notes here, after NASA stopped the funds, North American continued with some testing and demonstrated a successful landing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] That must’ve created some problems at North American, didn’t it?

[User] Well, let me say about problems. Two things about the paraglider at North American. It created a problem, but it was a small program. It didn’t create large layoffs or anything like that, that a big program would. The program was concurrent with the Apollo Program; and the Apollo Program was experiencing a lot of growing pains at that time; and it turned out, interestingly enough since both were in the same Division, that the Paraglider Program broke some ice for the Apollo Program, all the way up and down the line, when it came to inspection systems, when it came to procurement systems, when it came to control systems. Paraglider was finding the problems in those systems before the Apollo was, because the Apollo hadn’t reached that stage of hardware that the paraglider had. So, when I was running the Paraglider Program, we were really being a scout, so to speak, in cleaning up some of the basic problems we had in our fundamental process systems at the Division. And I think that was very helpful to Apollo, albeit painful.

[Assistant] Matter of fact, didn’t North American continue with the paraglider on its own after NASA dropped the program? According to my notes here, after NASA stopped the funds, North American continued with some testing and demonstrated a successful landing.

[User] Oh, I think that’s right. We carried it on to complete the landing ourselves. We had some outstanding people beginning to work well as a team together that enabled that to happen. Not the least of those was [John] Jack Swigert [Jr.]. You know, Jack was a test pilot for me on the Paraglider Program.

[Assistant] A well-known astronaut.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let me say about problems. Two things about the paraglider at North American. It created a problem, but it was a small program. It didn’t create large layoffs or anything like that, that a big program would. The program was concurrent with the Apollo Program; and the Apollo Program was experiencing a lot of growing pains at that time; and it turned out, interestingly enough since both were in the same Division, that the Paraglider Program broke some ice for the Apollo Program, all the way up and down the line, when it came to inspection systems, when it came to procurement systems, when it came to control systems. Paraglider was finding the problems in those systems before the Apollo was, because the Apollo hadn’t reached that stage of hardware that the paraglider had. So, when I was running the Paraglider Program, we were really being a scout, so to speak, in cleaning up some of the basic problems we had in our fundamental process systems at the Division. And I think that was very helpful to Apollo, albeit painful.

[Assistant] Matter of fact, didn’t North American continue with the paraglider on its own after NASA dropped the program? According to my notes here, after NASA stopped the funds, North American continued with some testing and demonstrated a successful landing.

[User] Oh, I think that’s right. We carried it on to complete the landing ourselves. We had some outstanding people beginning to work well as a team together that enabled that to happen. Not the least of those was [John] Jack Swigert [Jr.]. You know, Jack was a test pilot for me on the Paraglider Program.

[Assistant] A well-known astronaut.

[User] Yeah. And would-be congressman. He didn’t quite make it.

[Assistant] [laughs] Yes, indeed. As you’ve just defined, George, the paraglider was a logical step on the way to the Apollo command and service module, and you wound up being tremendously active in that—from beginning to end. Can you describe some of your Apollo experiences from the beginning? And we’ll just follow it sequentially with you as you went through those growing pains and developments, and from what you remember.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right. Let me leave the paraglider with saying that: You’re right; you jogged my memory. We did complete at least through the landing of the Gemini, and we kind of left that in the record book. We did a great deal for the Apollo Program in breaking the ground on the overall systems that were necessary—management systems that were necessary—to make the Apollo happen. And thirdly, as far as me personally and a number of my people, we gained good working experience with the NASA. We met a lot of NASA people in working clothes and in management clothes, all of us; and we worked together as a team; and I think that that certainly helped me later on in my Apollo activities.\n\n A couple that I bring to mind there that later were key players in Apollo on the NASA side were people like Scotty [Scott H.] Simpkinson from the inspection side—although you could hardly call Scotty just an inspector; he went far beyond that—and a guy named Marty [Martin L.] Raines, who was the reliability leader down at NASA. And, of course, we worked a lot with the contracting people, which enabled us to better understand where NASA was coming from insofar as later interfaces with Apollo were concerned.

[Assistant] Well, in Apollo you were a prime contractor. You’re talking now the subs?

[User] No, on Apollo we were prime contractor. But we were running the Paraglider Program directly with the NASA. We weren’t running it through any other company. So, in other words, we didn’t run it through McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation]. We weren’t subcontracting McDonnell; we were contracted directly to NASA.

[Assistant] Right. Well, I was referring to the Apollo Program. Apollo, you had it.

[User] The Apollo, we had it.

[Assistant] You had the command and service module.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, on Apollo we were prime contractor. But we were running the Paraglider Program directly with the NASA. We weren’t running it through any other company. So, in other words, we didn’t run it through McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation]. We weren’t subcontracting McDonnell; we were contracted directly to NASA.

[Assistant] Right. Well, I was referring to the Apollo Program. Apollo, you had it.

[User] The Apollo, we had it.

[Assistant] You had the command and service module.

[User] Well, that’s right. We had the system.

[Assistant] And you were working with the subs throughout that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did that. The NASA, of course, got into it and concurred, finally, with what we did; but we took the lead in doing that. I might also say, when I talked about the V-nuts, I got a little carried away. But it turned out that Bob Gilruth and I got to be the—how should you say it?—parents of the V-nuts on the spacecraft, because we got to know every one of those darn things. I’m not kidding! We went through every one. We had “Betty” and we had “Ann,” and we had every nut you can think on that thing; and he rolled his sleeves up and he went right through that with me, no question about it. So, he and I got to be V-nut experts. In fact, he even helped design some of the sleeves for them.

[Assistant] He was Center Director at that time, wasn’t he?

[User] Center Director. You’re damn right.

[Assistant] Right down there with the troops.

[User] Because it was a critical problem. He doesn’t get down on every little problem on the system, but just those that have the potential of really knocking the system off the track.

[Assistant] So, he was a boss and you were a boss, and you were right down there with the working troops in the field.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Center Director. You’re damn right.

[Assistant] Right down there with the troops.

[User] Because it was a critical problem. He doesn’t get down on every little problem on the system, but just those that have the potential of really knocking the system off the track.

[Assistant] So, he was a boss and you were a boss, and you were right down there with the working troops in the field.

[User] Damn right. It got everybody’s attention, and it sure as heck got the problem solved in a big hurry. And then we finally sure as heck changed it to stainless-steel when we had a chance to do so; that’s for sure.\n\n I want to say one other thing about the NASA and this attitude of confrontation versus cooperation in combination of the forces. The NASA did an excellent job of changing the focus of their folks from one of just overview to one of rolling up their sleeves and working, too. Because the NASA had great facilities, and they had excellent people; and we worked out a system where the guys started to work together—our guys and their guys worked together—to go to the Moon. And where it was best to a job in their plant or their lab versus ours, it was quickly recognized and we quickly agreed. And we integrated that right into our plans. So they became an active, contributing participant rather than an overseer on the program, and that made a big difference.

[Assistant] That’s one of the tremendous coordination jobs. I’m thinking of the incredible number of people, just plain people, and the various facets of the program. You as the contractor—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it was a critical problem. He doesn’t get down on every little problem on the system, but just those that have the potential of really knocking the system off the track.

[Assistant] So, he was a boss and you were a boss, and you were right down there with the working troops in the field.

[User] Damn right. It got everybody’s attention, and it sure as heck got the problem solved in a big hurry. And then we finally sure as heck changed it to stainless-steel when we had a chance to do so; that’s for sure.\n\n I want to say one other thing about the NASA and this attitude of confrontation versus cooperation in combination of the forces. The NASA did an excellent job of changing the focus of their folks from one of just overview to one of rolling up their sleeves and working, too. Because the NASA had great facilities, and they had excellent people; and we worked out a system where the guys started to work together—our guys and their guys worked together—to go to the Moon. And where it was best to a job in their plant or their lab versus ours, it was quickly recognized and we quickly agreed. And we integrated that right into our plans. So they became an active, contributing participant rather than an overseer on the program, and that made a big difference.

[Assistant] That’s one of the tremendous coordination jobs. I’m thinking of the incredible number of people, just plain people, and the various facets of the program. You as the contractor—

[User] We had 10,000 engineers.

[Assistant] Ten thousand? Just you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Damn right. It got everybody’s attention, and it sure as heck got the problem solved in a big hurry. And then we finally sure as heck changed it to stainless-steel when we had a chance to do so; that’s for sure.\n\n I want to say one other thing about the NASA and this attitude of confrontation versus cooperation in combination of the forces. The NASA did an excellent job of changing the focus of their folks from one of just overview to one of rolling up their sleeves and working, too. Because the NASA had great facilities, and they had excellent people; and we worked out a system where the guys started to work together—our guys and their guys worked together—to go to the Moon. And where it was best to a job in their plant or their lab versus ours, it was quickly recognized and we quickly agreed. And we integrated that right into our plans. So they became an active, contributing participant rather than an overseer on the program, and that made a big difference.

[Assistant] That’s one of the tremendous coordination jobs. I’m thinking of the incredible number of people, just plain people, and the various facets of the program. You as the contractor—

[User] We had 10,000 engineers.

[Assistant] Ten thousand? Just you?

[User] Just at Rockwell.

[Assistant] Just Rockwell. Now add to that all your subs, and how many would you say the total number of engineers are you talking about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had 10,000 engineers.

[Assistant] Ten thousand? Just you?

[User] Just at Rockwell.

[Assistant] Just Rockwell. Now add to that all your subs, and how many would you say the total number of engineers are you talking about?

[User] Gee, I don’t know. I think at one time we figured there must’ve been between 35 and 40 thousand people in the program, but that included everybody. I expect that the engineers were probably in the 15/16,000 category, something like that.

[Assistant] Well, I guess we’d better spell out this as the building phase, having nothing to do with launching per se. This has nothing to do with flight per se, this is just the building phase.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just at Rockwell.

[Assistant] Just Rockwell. Now add to that all your subs, and how many would you say the total number of engineers are you talking about?

[User] Gee, I don’t know. I think at one time we figured there must’ve been between 35 and 40 thousand people in the program, but that included everybody. I expect that the engineers were probably in the 15/16,000 category, something like that.

[Assistant] Well, I guess we’d better spell out this as the building phase, having nothing to do with launching per se. This has nothing to do with flight per se, this is just the building phase.

[User] No, no, this is just the R&D [Research and Development] phase of the spacecraft.

[Assistant] An R&D phase that, now I think, we’ve come to a halt with Apollo 1. Because now all these things were beginning to go together. You were beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Or were you? And suddenly, Apollo 1. Disaster.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was selected to peer—or whatever the word is—, I believe it was, the Thompson Board at the time? At the Cape, following the fire at the Cape.

[Assistant] I don’t remember the name.

[User] Well, maybe I’ve got the name incorrectly. But I think that’s what it was, I think. I’ve forgotten. It’s one of those kinds of things that you don’t want to remember any more than you have to about, because of the tragedy associated with the affair. But, I was put on the board, which was purely a NASA board—an investigative board.

[Assistant] The Apollo Review Board, to give it its official title. That was it.

[User] It was a review board. It soon became clear to the NASA lawyers that maybe that they had a perception of conflict of interest with me on the board, because I was North American. So, after the first couple of weeks of this activity, they changed that and make me an ex officio member of the board. My particular role in that was to try and bring the North American resources to bear to help with that investigation. We had no intention or idea of trying to cover anything up. We were trying to find out the problem just as much as anybody else was; that’s for sure. As a matter of fact, during that first 9 or 10 months, one of the guys that I became very, oh, kind of technically close to was Chaffee.

[Assistant] Roger [B.] Chaffee.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, maybe I’ve got the name incorrectly. But I think that’s what it was, I think. I’ve forgotten. It’s one of those kinds of things that you don’t want to remember any more than you have to about, because of the tragedy associated with the affair. But, I was put on the board, which was purely a NASA board—an investigative board.

[Assistant] The Apollo Review Board, to give it its official title. That was it.

[User] It was a review board. It soon became clear to the NASA lawyers that maybe that they had a perception of conflict of interest with me on the board, because I was North American. So, after the first couple of weeks of this activity, they changed that and make me an ex officio member of the board. My particular role in that was to try and bring the North American resources to bear to help with that investigation. We had no intention or idea of trying to cover anything up. We were trying to find out the problem just as much as anybody else was; that’s for sure. As a matter of fact, during that first 9 or 10 months, one of the guys that I became very, oh, kind of technically close to was Chaffee.

[Assistant] Roger [B.] Chaffee.

[User] Chaffee spent a lot of time—we spent a lot of time late nights and otherwise, on things that were worrying him about the spacecraft, about the procedures, about the displays, the instruments, the panels, etc.; he and I talked over at great length or I’d get the right people in to talk them over with him that knew about it on into the night. Because those guys came out here and lived out here. Chaffee lived out here, you know, for that.

[Assistant] As a member of the crew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My name is Lawrence Newman. My address is [address], Upper Marlboro, Maryland.

[Assistant] He also happens to be my husband. I am Linda Millette. Can you describe your present family and your work situation and any interests that you may have at the moment?

[User] I have five siblings. My father has passed. My mother is still alive. One sister and the rest of the siblings are brothers. I work for the U.S. Department of Education. At the Department of Education, I'm a special assistant to the Inspector General. My duties consists of being an ombudsman. I did Director of Hotline Operations. I'm do human resources work such as surveys, work succession plans, mentoring program, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Assistant] And do you have any other interests outside? And what's your immediate family like?

[User] My immediate family life like includes working with my wife outside in the garden, working on the lawn, landscaping. I work in the vegetable garden myself. I really enjoy doing that. Plus, we have we have flower gardens. And we chase animals, wild animals quite a bit because of where we live. We live on four acres of land. We have lots of trees, water, and the animals seem to congregate here, especially the deer, the raccoons, and the groundhogs. We stay pretty busy.

[Assistant] Okay. I want you to tell us, if you can, ere the things in your childhood or things in previous to Peace Corps that led you up maybe to having an interest in joining the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have five siblings. My father has passed. My mother is still alive. One sister and the rest of the siblings are brothers. I work for the U.S. Department of Education. At the Department of Education, I'm a special assistant to the Inspector General. My duties consists of being an ombudsman. I did Director of Hotline Operations. I'm do human resources work such as surveys, work succession plans, mentoring program, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Assistant] And do you have any other interests outside? And what's your immediate family like?

[User] My immediate family life like includes working with my wife outside in the garden, working on the lawn, landscaping. I work in the vegetable garden myself. I really enjoy doing that. Plus, we have we have flower gardens. And we chase animals, wild animals quite a bit because of where we live. We live on four acres of land. We have lots of trees, water, and the animals seem to congregate here, especially the deer, the raccoons, and the groundhogs. We stay pretty busy.

[Assistant] Okay. I want you to tell us, if you can, ere the things in your childhood or things in previous to Peace Corps that led you up maybe to having an interest in joining the Peace Corps?

[User] I grew up on a farm, so naturally I was close to the land and in nature. When I heard about the Peace Corps, my imagination told me I would be in a place where there would be lots of trees, lots of, lots of opportunities to be a part of nature, lots of opportunities to enjoy the fresh air and the water. So, yes, I would say growing up as a kid on a farm in a very rural area in Prince George's County, had something to do with my passion or my desire to become a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Where did you hear about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, um, I was, I would say I was getting not bored, but I wanted to do something different than what I was doing. I wanted to get out of Rosaryville, get out of the state of Maryland, get out of Prince George's County. I didn't have any money. I wanted to do something different and something probably worthwhile. I think there was a lot more I could do to myself than just being a schoolteacher. So I would say that the adventure was there, the desire to help others, and not to get caught in the same rut that I saw so many of my brothers getting caught in or my neighbors getting caught in. I had to get away. And the Peace Corps sounded like the best way to do it because it wouldn't cost me the money. It was just disappearing all the challenges that I'd have to deal with.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific project or country in mind when you joined or applied?

[User] Well, I didn't, but my last year in college I did write a paper on Nyasaland [now called Malawi]. And unbeknownst to me, when I was selected to the Peace Corps, I was sent to Nyasaland and it all dawned on me that I had been here before. I had seen this place before. I knew a lot about it. And it was because I had written this paper when I was a senior in college.

[Assistant] I should just interject a note that the country that you went to serve in was called Nyasaland, and then it later became Malawi while you were there.

[User] That's correct. That's correct.

[Assistant] Just describe for me the process that you went through to apply for the Peace Corps and the time, like the time it took for you to hear a response, if you remember any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I didn't, but my last year in college I did write a paper on Nyasaland [now called Malawi]. And unbeknownst to me, when I was selected to the Peace Corps, I was sent to Nyasaland and it all dawned on me that I had been here before. I had seen this place before. I knew a lot about it. And it was because I had written this paper when I was a senior in college.

[Assistant] I should just interject a note that the country that you went to serve in was called Nyasaland, and then it later became Malawi while you were there.

[User] That's correct. That's correct.

[Assistant] Just describe for me the process that you went through to apply for the Peace Corps and the time, like the time it took for you to hear a response, if you remember any of that?

[User] I recall I got the, I believe I got the application from a post office in Washington, D.C. I did not talk to anyone about it. I just simply filled out the application. I sent it in. And to my surprise, the Peace Corps got back to me within, within a month. And told me they had received my application and that I was eligible and there were certain things I had to do in order to get into the training. So basically it was just a question of filling out the application and responding, being responsive to the Peace Corps in Washington.

[Assistant] And did you have a specific country in mind? Did we?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. That's correct.

[Assistant] Just describe for me the process that you went through to apply for the Peace Corps and the time, like the time it took for you to hear a response, if you remember any of that?

[User] I recall I got the, I believe I got the application from a post office in Washington, D.C. I did not talk to anyone about it. I just simply filled out the application. I sent it in. And to my surprise, the Peace Corps got back to me within, within a month. And told me they had received my application and that I was eligible and there were certain things I had to do in order to get into the training. So basically it was just a question of filling out the application and responding, being responsive to the Peace Corps in Washington.

[Assistant] And did you have a specific country in mind? Did we?

[User] At this point, no. All I know, what I did have in mind was I wanted to go to Africa.

[Assistant] Okay. What were your friends' or family's reactions when you told them you were going into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In terms of preparing the people close to me like my family and friends, there's nothing in particular that I did. I just simply explained to them what I was doing, what I planned to do, and the reason why I wanted to do it. And there was nothing to worry about. For myself personally, I, I had to prepare myself emotionally. I had to think outside of my little security box. Um, I talked to a couple of my former teachers about it, um, and develop a mindset of, Lawrence, this is, this is going to be something different. This is going to be a challenge, but you're up to it. You want to, you want to get out of here. You want to do something different. Here's an opportunity. That's about it really.

[Assistant] Okay. Where did you go for training?

[User] My first training was in Camp Radley in Puerto Rico. Arecibo, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] And what did you do there?

[User] Well, we dug latrines. We did all types of swimming. We did trekking, we did canoeing, we did mountain climbing, we did rappelling. We did all those things I guess you might have to do if you're caught up in a rain forest someplace but no, no, with none of the resources you really need to survive. It was a survival type of training. We spent, I believe we spent a month, no, three weeks there, I believe.

[Assistant] And was that helpful for being in Malawi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My first training was in Camp Radley in Puerto Rico. Arecibo, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] And what did you do there?

[User] Well, we dug latrines. We did all types of swimming. We did trekking, we did canoeing, we did mountain climbing, we did rappelling. We did all those things I guess you might have to do if you're caught up in a rain forest someplace but no, no, with none of the resources you really need to survive. It was a survival type of training. We spent, I believe we spent a month, no, three weeks there, I believe.

[Assistant] And was that helpful for being in Malawi?

[User] Eh, not really. I could go to Malawi without that training. Although on a couple of occasions, because of some risk that I took when I was in Malawi, I think the drownproofing in the canoe and I think the mountain climbing probably, probably would have been useful if something had happened when I was taking these risks.

[Assistant] Okay. How long was that training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we dug latrines. We did all types of swimming. We did trekking, we did canoeing, we did mountain climbing, we did rappelling. We did all those things I guess you might have to do if you're caught up in a rain forest someplace but no, no, with none of the resources you really need to survive. It was a survival type of training. We spent, I believe we spent a month, no, three weeks there, I believe.

[Assistant] And was that helpful for being in Malawi?

[User] Eh, not really. I could go to Malawi without that training. Although on a couple of occasions, because of some risk that I took when I was in Malawi, I think the drownproofing in the canoe and I think the mountain climbing probably, probably would have been useful if something had happened when I was taking these risks.

[Assistant] Okay. How long was that training?

[User] The training in Puerto Rico, I believe, was, was 3 to 4 weeks. I can't recall correctly, but it was at least three weeks. No more than four weeks.

[Assistant] And then where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eh, not really. I could go to Malawi without that training. Although on a couple of occasions, because of some risk that I took when I was in Malawi, I think the drownproofing in the canoe and I think the mountain climbing probably, probably would have been useful if something had happened when I was taking these risks.

[Assistant] Okay. How long was that training?

[User] The training in Puerto Rico, I believe, was, was 3 to 4 weeks. I can't recall correctly, but it was at least three weeks. No more than four weeks.

[Assistant] And then where did you go?

[User] Then we went to Syracuse University for language training, African culture training. And I think we spent another 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 weeks there at University College, Syracuse University, in Syracuse, New York.

[Assistant] And how long was your total training? Do you have a remembrance of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The training in Puerto Rico, I believe, was, was 3 to 4 weeks. I can't recall correctly, but it was at least three weeks. No more than four weeks.

[Assistant] And then where did you go?

[User] Then we went to Syracuse University for language training, African culture training. And I think we spent another 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 weeks there at University College, Syracuse University, in Syracuse, New York.

[Assistant] And how long was your total training? Do you have a remembrance of that?

[User] The total training must have been at least at least two months, but no more than three months.

[Assistant] Okay. What was your reaction to the other people in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then we went to Syracuse University for language training, African culture training. And I think we spent another 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 weeks there at University College, Syracuse University, in Syracuse, New York.

[Assistant] And how long was your total training? Do you have a remembrance of that?

[User] The total training must have been at least at least two months, but no more than three months.

[Assistant] Okay. What was your reaction to the other people in your group?

[User] Um, I'd never been around white people before, so to speak, except working for them. So I was pleasantly surprised to see how receptive they were, how responsive they were to some of the questions and needs that I had. I was also surprised at how naive a lot of the people were when it came to doing things like the physical things, like digging ditches and finding your way through the rainforest and that type of thing. Because I sort of grew up, grew up with that. Basically I was very, very comfortable with them.

[Assistant] What is your ethnicity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The total training must have been at least at least two months, but no more than three months.

[Assistant] Okay. What was your reaction to the other people in your group?

[User] Um, I'd never been around white people before, so to speak, except working for them. So I was pleasantly surprised to see how receptive they were, how responsive they were to some of the questions and needs that I had. I was also surprised at how naive a lot of the people were when it came to doing things like the physical things, like digging ditches and finding your way through the rainforest and that type of thing. Because I sort of grew up, grew up with that. Basically I was very, very comfortable with them.

[Assistant] What is your ethnicity?

[User] I'm African American. In those days I was called Black or colored really.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you feel, kind of looking back, do you feel that your Peace Corps training on a whole was useful to you in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. We did not learn. Those of us who were selected were not told why people were deselected.

[Assistant] What was the criteria for selection in or selection out? What went on? Or was there anything that went on or?

[User] Well, we had interviews, I guess psychological interviews. You know, we had to, to learn about the culture of the country that we were going to. They'd watch how we interact with, with, with other people. Um, I think the main requirement was, although they didn't tell us, was their observations of us and how we, how we dealt with people with whom we were not really familiar with. How we dealt with learning the language, how we dealt with learning about the culture. There was no like, you have to do one, two, three, four, five in order to be selected into the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User]
We never knew for sure exactly what the criteria was. All we knew was what their training requirements were. But we were never given any examinations in the language or any of the other subjects that we took. I think the main selection requirements were that we had to be psychologically and physically up to par, up to the standards that they had created, and we didn't know what those standards were.

And it's probably a good thing we didn't know what they were because then, then I think we would have been concentrating on meeting the requirements. And I think a lot of the other, other intangibles that we got from being with each other would have been lost because we would have been concentrating on the training requirements. Intangibles such as building close relationships, intangibles like showing, showing, feeling that you're being cared for by somebody else. And the non- competition, I think, helped a lot. People wanted to see others succeed. People wanted to see others get selected and not deselected.

[Assistant] Okay. How diverse was your program and what was the makeup of that diversity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had interviews, I guess psychological interviews. You know, we had to, to learn about the culture of the country that we were going to. They'd watch how we interact with, with, with other people. Um, I think the main requirement was, although they didn't tell us, was their observations of us and how we, how we dealt with people with whom we were not really familiar with. How we dealt with learning the language, how we dealt with learning about the culture. There was no like, you have to do one, two, three, four, five in order to be selected into the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User]
We never knew for sure exactly what the criteria was. All we knew was what their training requirements were. But we were never given any examinations in the language or any of the other subjects that we took. I think the main selection requirements were that we had to be psychologically and physically up to par, up to the standards that they had created, and we didn't know what those standards were.

And it's probably a good thing we didn't know what they were because then, then I think we would have been concentrating on meeting the requirements. And I think a lot of the other, other intangibles that we got from being with each other would have been lost because we would have been concentrating on the training requirements. Intangibles such as building close relationships, intangibles like showing, showing, feeling that you're being cared for by somebody else. And the non- competition, I think, helped a lot. People wanted to see others succeed. People wanted to see others get selected and not deselected.

[Assistant] Okay. How diverse was your program and what was the makeup of that diversity?

[User] You mean in my training? Or once I got to?

[Assistant] Your group that went to Malawi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We never knew for sure exactly what the criteria was. All we knew was what their training requirements were. But we were never given any examinations in the language or any of the other subjects that we took. I think the main selection requirements were that we had to be psychologically and physically up to par, up to the standards that they had created, and we didn't know what those standards were.

And it's probably a good thing we didn't know what they were because then, then I think we would have been concentrating on meeting the requirements. And I think a lot of the other, other intangibles that we got from being with each other would have been lost because we would have been concentrating on the training requirements. Intangibles such as building close relationships, intangibles like showing, showing, feeling that you're being cared for by somebody else. And the non- competition, I think, helped a lot. People wanted to see others succeed. People wanted to see others get selected and not deselected.

[Assistant] Okay. How diverse was your program and what was the makeup of that diversity?

[User] You mean in my training? Or once I got to?

[Assistant] Your group that went to Malawi.

[User] The group that went to Malawi, I think we had maybe three African Americans. I was one out of three. We had no more than four. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe we had, maybe we had five out of, five out of 40. Five out of 40, something like that. Very few African Americans.

[Assistant] That went to Malawi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean in my training? Or once I got to?

[Assistant] Your group that went to Malawi.

[User] The group that went to Malawi, I think we had maybe three African Americans. I was one out of three. We had no more than four. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe we had, maybe we had five out of, five out of 40. Five out of 40, something like that. Very few African Americans.

[Assistant] That went to Malawi.

[User] I could be wrong there with the numbers, but there weren't many of us.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Now, some time, you had some time before you, uh, when you finished training and before you went over? Was there a break in there at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The group that went to Malawi, I think we had maybe three African Americans. I was one out of three. We had no more than four. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe we had, maybe we had five out of, five out of 40. Five out of 40, something like that. Very few African Americans.

[Assistant] That went to Malawi.

[User] I could be wrong there with the numbers, but there weren't many of us.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Now, some time, you had some time before you, uh, when you finished training and before you went over? Was there a break in there at all?

[User] Yeah. Yes. Yes, there was. In fact, I invited the African teacher at Syracuse who taught us language down to my parents' home to stay with us. I think he stayed with us for about a week till I wanted him to see what it was like to be in an American home. And not just an American, in an American home, but in an African American home. So he actually came down and stayed with us. And my parents were nice enough, said he could. I believe if I recall correctly, he stayed with us for about a week. Now, this was after, after I believe I was selected into the Peace Corps. I knew I was going there and I wanted this African teacher to experience this before we went back to Africa.

[Assistant] I haven't touched on, but I wanted to ask you about the staff of the training. Are there any, this teacher obviously was someone you connected with and you wanted to invite. You also just very generous. Were there other staff members that you remembered or that you connected with or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could be wrong there with the numbers, but there weren't many of us.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Now, some time, you had some time before you, uh, when you finished training and before you went over? Was there a break in there at all?

[User] Yeah. Yes. Yes, there was. In fact, I invited the African teacher at Syracuse who taught us language down to my parents' home to stay with us. I think he stayed with us for about a week till I wanted him to see what it was like to be in an American home. And not just an American, in an American home, but in an African American home. So he actually came down and stayed with us. And my parents were nice enough, said he could. I believe if I recall correctly, he stayed with us for about a week. Now, this was after, after I believe I was selected into the Peace Corps. I knew I was going there and I wanted this African teacher to experience this before we went back to Africa.

[Assistant] I haven't touched on, but I wanted to ask you about the staff of the training. Are there any, this teacher obviously was someone you connected with and you wanted to invite. You also just very generous. Were there other staff members that you remembered or that you connected with or?

[User] There was a female Caucasian teacher or professor at Syracuse, I can't recall her name, who taught African culture whatever, Malawian culture, what have you. I was very impressed with her. But other than that, I was not particularly impressed or unimpressed. They were just people who were instructors. But this African instructor stood out because I thought he did a very, very good job in teaching the language. And he was, he was also very much a human being. Yeah, he was very easy to talk to. He was very friendly, full of smiles all the time. And he just sort of reached out to us and I was impressed with him.

[Assistant] And he was a Malawian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a female Caucasian teacher or professor at Syracuse, I can't recall her name, who taught African culture whatever, Malawian culture, what have you. I was very impressed with her. But other than that, I was not particularly impressed or unimpressed. They were just people who were instructors. But this African instructor stood out because I thought he did a very, very good job in teaching the language. And he was, he was also very much a human being. Yeah, he was very easy to talk to. He was very friendly, full of smiles all the time. And he just sort of reached out to us and I was impressed with him.

[Assistant] And he was a Malawian?

[User] He was a Malawian, yeah. Nyasan then.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I thought it would be good for him to experience an African American family and my family to experience him because it was an opportunity I knew that my family would not get for a long time to come. And I don't know, maybe he wouldn't have either. But I know my family were very, very appreciative that I did that. And it was, it was quite an experience for my little nieces and nephews as well as my mother and father.

[Assistant] I'm sure they still remember it to this day. Okay. Now you've made the trip to Malawi, to Nyasaland. What was your entry like? What are your first impressions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
My first impression was the weather was hot and I'm in a real strange place here. These people, these women walking around with these big baskets on their heads full of veggies or full of wood. And I'm not seeing the paved roads and what have you. I really felt like I was in a very strange place, um, but I wasn't scared, you know. I also, I guess, I guess I got a sense of security, of comfort because by being, by being, um, having grown up on a farm and having lived in difficult situations, um, that although it was all strange to me, I figured I could fit in and I could do what I was supposed to do and, and help the people that I was there to help.

I think if I hadn't had that rural upbringing out in the country, that I would have been, and have not, have not been around African Americans all my life, it probably would have been different. But the fact that most of the people I saw were African American in itself was a good feeling to me because I never had that feeling before.

[Assistant] Were Africans.

[User] Africans, right. Um, because I never had that feeling before. Because the whole time I was growing up and for the most part, you know, I was around white people except when I was in my own community or in my own high school going to college. So here I was all of a sudden thrown in with all of these Black people and my God, what a, what a strange, what a good feeling that was.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Did you have any training when you got into the country?

[User] Um, I. If we had any training, I can't recall what it was. It seemed to me we, we got there. We went to Soche Hill College for something. I can't quite remember what it was, but it didn't last very long. I can't even remember the training. Orientation or something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] You don't remember any speakers or anybody?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Africans, right. Um, because I never had that feeling before. Because the whole time I was growing up and for the most part, you know, I was around white people except when I was in my own community or in my own high school going to college. So here I was all of a sudden thrown in with all of these Black people and my God, what a, what a strange, what a good feeling that was.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Did you have any training when you got into the country?

[User] Um, I. If we had any training, I can't recall what it was. It seemed to me we, we got there. We went to Soche Hill College for something. I can't quite remember what it was, but it didn't last very long. I can't even remember the training. Orientation or something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] You don't remember any speakers or anybody?

[User] No. No, I can't remember any speakers, anybody like that.

[Assistant] What, uh, what was your reaction to staff, Peace Corps staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I. If we had any training, I can't recall what it was. It seemed to me we, we got there. We went to Soche Hill College for something. I can't quite remember what it was, but it didn't last very long. I can't even remember the training. Orientation or something like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] You don't remember any speakers or anybody?

[User] No. No, I can't remember any speakers, anybody like that.

[Assistant] What, uh, what was your reaction to staff, Peace Corps staff?

[User]
Well, I thought the staff were very friendly, very concerned about helping us, very concerned that we got started on the right foot, and that we had the resources that we needed to get the job done. And that we, we understood that we were in a different culture, we're in a different country. And things were not the way they were back in America and we needed to act accordingly. And I think those were the types of things they, they, they in their own way, you know, let us know that here you are. You're in a different place and you're going to have to act a little bit differently because you're, you're someplace that's quite different from America. And people might expect different things from you than what they expected in America. And you have to act accordingly. You have to live according, not act. You have to live accordingly.

So I thought the staff was very, very well trained. And they got their verbal training in getting the message over to us as New Peace Corps volunteers. And also to show that they want to help us.

[Assistant] Now, you were group three coming to Malawi. What was your reaction to other volunteers who were already there? They'd been there a year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I can't remember any speakers, anybody like that.

[Assistant] What, uh, what was your reaction to staff, Peace Corps staff?

[User]
Well, I thought the staff were very friendly, very concerned about helping us, very concerned that we got started on the right foot, and that we had the resources that we needed to get the job done. And that we, we understood that we were in a different culture, we're in a different country. And things were not the way they were back in America and we needed to act accordingly. And I think those were the types of things they, they, they in their own way, you know, let us know that here you are. You're in a different place and you're going to have to act a little bit differently because you're, you're someplace that's quite different from America. And people might expect different things from you than what they expected in America. And you have to act accordingly. You have to live according, not act. You have to live accordingly.

So I thought the staff was very, very well trained. And they got their verbal training in getting the message over to us as New Peace Corps volunteers. And also to show that they want to help us.

[Assistant] Now, you were group three coming to Malawi. What was your reaction to other volunteers who were already there? They'd been there a year.

[User] My reaction was to get to them as soon as possible and find out as much as I could.

[Assistant] In what way? What do you mean by that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, I thought the staff were very friendly, very concerned about helping us, very concerned that we got started on the right foot, and that we had the resources that we needed to get the job done. And that we, we understood that we were in a different culture, we're in a different country. And things were not the way they were back in America and we needed to act accordingly. And I think those were the types of things they, they, they in their own way, you know, let us know that here you are. You're in a different place and you're going to have to act a little bit differently because you're, you're someplace that's quite different from America. And people might expect different things from you than what they expected in America. And you have to act accordingly. You have to live according, not act. You have to live accordingly.

So I thought the staff was very, very well trained. And they got their verbal training in getting the message over to us as New Peace Corps volunteers. And also to show that they want to help us.

[Assistant] Now, you were group three coming to Malawi. What was your reaction to other volunteers who were already there? They'd been there a year.

[User] My reaction was to get to them as soon as possible and find out as much as I could.

[Assistant] In what way? What do you mean by that?

[User] Well, you know, how do you, how do you deal with certain types of situations? For instance, you went out to a village. How did you react if somebody offered you some food or if you went out to a social gathering like a dance or something? You know what, what did you do? What could we expect from the Africans? Or if you went to a shop to buy something, go to the market, you know, what could you expect from the people doing the selling and what how do you deal with the people who beg from me? Because I already had already experienced that. Um, and what do you do when people want to come to work for you? Like.

[Assistant] What did you already experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, how do you, how do you deal with certain types of situations? For instance, you went out to a village. How did you react if somebody offered you some food or if you went out to a social gathering like a dance or something? You know what, what did you do? What could we expect from the Africans? Or if you went to a shop to buy something, go to the market, you know, what could you expect from the people doing the selling and what how do you deal with the people who beg from me? Because I already had already experienced that. Um, and what do you do when people want to come to work for you? Like.

[Assistant] What did you already experience?

[User] Well, people asking for money on the street.

[Assistant] Begging.

[User] Yeah, begging. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, what's the most important thing you can tell me? Yeah, I'm a new volunteer. You've been here for a while. What, what? What's the most important thing that I should know at this point?

[Assistant] What did, you had some language training. Did that play a significant role in your life? Where were you? Where were you stationed and what were you doing? And then did the language play a significant role in that?